2011_esch_BaPa_01

2011_esch_BaPa_01

Okay this is Claire Days interviewing Anthony Richards on the sixteenth of August 2011 for the Barking Park Project.

If I can ask you to introduce yourself, say your full name and date of birth for the tape please Anthony

My full name is Anthony John Richards, I was born on the eleventh of August 1936.

Just had a birthday

Well just a few days ago yes

Happy birthday for a few days ago! [laughing]

Thank you, thank you.

And can I ask where you were born please?

Where? In Coventry

In Coventry, was that in hospital or was that a home birth?

Yes, hospital birthday, Coventry and Warwickshire hospital

Ah, okay. Lovely. And were both of your parents from the Coventry area as well?

No, my mother was from Coventry area my father was from XXXX XXXX in South Wales.

I’m not going to try and spell that, I’ll just write South Wales I think for that one.

And what did your parents do for work if you don’t mind me asking?

My mother was a secretary my father was, well he worked initially on leaving school at fourteen he worked in a shoe shop, but this was during the time of the depression and there was hardly any work to be had in South Wales and he moved to Coventry and he took various jobs, driving vehicles, new vehicles and so on. His father warned him when he moved to Coventry that he was to avoid the four Ps; the police, the politicians, the parsons and the prostitutes [laughs]

It sounds like good advice

It was good advice

So what did his father do in South Wales?

His father was a master tailor

Okay

He made suits for most of the men in XXXX XXXX but of course came the depression and they hadn’t got the money to pay for them.

Of course, yeah. Was that quite a difficult period for your father then? Did he ever talk about it?

Very difficult yes

How did he find the move from South Wales to Coventry because obviously it would have been quite a big distance for a young man in that time

Well yes it was. He eventually got a job working with a pork butcher, um, killing pigs and draining off the blood for black pudding and herding newly arrived pigs from the station to the slaughter house and I think that was his main job then. His boss was also chairman of the magistrates so my father picked up a summons for some traffic offence and his boss said “you should of told me, I’d of got it struck out for you”

[laughter] friends in high places, it’s nice if you can get it isn’t it?

Lovely, so how did he meet your mother then? Was that in Coventry?

They met in Coventry, yes. How or when they met I don’t know but they live there.

And do you have any brothers or sisters?

I have two sisters, yes.

And what schools did you go to in Coventry?

In Cov I went to weobley school. I started off in the village school in Burton Green very small school indeed, it had slates on the roof and in the school, you know slates on the school and in it. And we used to write on chalk and slates. Then we moved, my sister Susan and I, to Weobley School in Coventry, well on the outskirts of Coventry in Tile Hill. Until age eleven [dog barks]

So what year would that have been?

I was eleven in 1947

1947, okay. So that would have been just after the war, can you tell me a little bit about your war time experience, can you remember any of the war?

Oh yes, vividly. Yes. In Burton Green we had salvage collections, you had to take all of your old pots and pans and any other bits of metal to be piled up and clothes to all be collected up for salvage. I remember that because one of my school friends picked up a kettle and threw it and I had a gash on my forehead for years afterwards.

Was he a close friend?

Well yes, no malice in it, just accidental.

Childhood hi-jinx

Yes, yes hi-jinx. [dog barks]

Did you experience much bombing or anything like that in the area you were in?

Well in Coventry of course. Uh. So many of our relations from Coventry moved out, we lived in a place called Burton Green which is five miles out of Coventry and they all moved with us during the bombing, and it was a very over crowded house of course, some of them got the indication that the Germans were coming and they stayed with us for a while. Fortunately their houses weren’t bombed, the houses near to them were bombed but theirs wasn’t. I actually contributed to the German war effort

Did you? In what way?

I left our garage doors open with a very high wind and it lifted our garage to the bottom of the garden. Helped add to the destruction caused from the bombing.

Crickey, how did your parents feel about that, about the garage ending up? not very happy?

No, not at all, no.

so what age were you when you left school? [dog barks]

do you mean when I left primary school or when I left

when you left your second school in Coventry

well I was eleven, just coming up to eleven.

So where did you go after there?

I went to Warwick School. Actually I sat the eleven plus is Coventry but made a mess of it but any way was offered a place at John Gulson and my mother was particularly outraged at that, she wasn’t going to have her son go to John Gulson School, so they arranged for me to go to Warwick school, they paid for a year for me to go to Warwick school, it was a time when my father was just building up his business as a greengrocery round and could ill afford to do that but they insisted on paying for me to go to school. At the end of that year, by virtue of the fact that we lived outside Coventry I was also eligible to sit the county eleven plus so from then on I got a free place at Warwick School. It was a public school, a very nice school.

What do you remember of those school days was it quite a strict school, was there strong discipline?

Yeah, oh yes, discipline was very strong.

Do you have fond memories of the school any anecdotes or any teachers that were particular characters you’d like to describe?

Uh. Most of them were very likable characters you know, there was one, everyone there had a nickname, all of the teachers had a nickname. One chap had a nickname of Rotten Guts as you can tell from that he wasn’t very popular.

[laughter]

Yeah, I’m fine with water thank you, trying to lay off the caffeine too early in the day [laughter]

But other names Pin and Beeswax and XXXX and XXXX they were all affectionate nicknames, we liked them yes. [phone rings] sorry, one moment.

I’ve blocked your route here haven’t I?

[woman answers phone in background]

Wasn’t worth getting up for was it?

No not really

So what were your favourite subjects when you were at school then?

Oh, German and French

German and French, was there a particular reason why you liked languages?

I suppose you take to some things more easily than to others, you like the things that you, and also you like the teachers of it as well you know? I think I take an interest in history now and I think I would have taken much more of an interest in history if I hadn’t got Rotten Guts teaching it to me.

So how old would you have been when you left grammar school then?

Um, seventeen approaching eighteen. I left in the july and was eighteen a month later.

Okay, and what did you do after school? Did you go straight into work or did you go into further education?

I uh, first took a gap job working for the local council as a dustman / sewer man you know helping the sewer man uh, helping the rat catcher and also the DIY man who did repairs on council houses, I went around with him as well. Quite a variety of jobs working for the council for four months after leaving school. Then I joined the army, I had by this time been accepted for the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst, but it turned out to be a disaster I am afraid.

[laughter] in what way was it a disaster? If you don’t mind sharing obviously.

Well I became medically discharged from them

Oh right, okay. So it wasn’t a pleasant experience for you?

No well it wasn’t my cup of tea

And what did you do after that point? Is that when you started to get into …

I was looking for a job, I took a job at a public schools appointments bureau and they recommended me to work for XXXX XXXX in Coventry who were overseas sales people I just didn’t take to that from the word go. But I wanted to get into journalism during our basic training we had to write, we were required to write essays and the captain had marked them and said that mine was journalise and that gave me the idea that yes, I wanted to be a journalist. So then I wrote to newspapers up and down the country uh trying to get a job. In most cases I didn’t even get a reply eventually I got a reply from Chelmsford where they were looking for a reporter on the Barking, Ilford and East Ham advertiser Upton Park and Dagenham Gazette that was its full name anyway they wanted a reporter in Barking so I went to Chelmsford for this interview and got the job.

And what year was that?

That would have been 1956

And during the application process was making the move obviously from Coventry down to Chelmsford was that daunting for you or was it something that you were just happy to do?

Sorry I don’t quite follow, making the move?

Yeah obviously because it was quite a large move distance wise obviously from your family in Coventry to back down here

Yes to travel to Chelmsford yes, I went to the interview in Chelmsford and got the job and so I went back to Coventry to pick up my good and XXXX and travelled down to Barking.

Okay, so where did you live when you first moved to Barking then?

I lived at a house in Marlborough Road, Dagenham. When I got the job I placed an advert, free of charge of course, in the Barking Advertise for that week, young man seeks accommodation etc and I got replies to it and picked these digs in 105 Marlborough Road, Dagengham, with Mr and Mrs Staines.

How many people lived in that house then, was it just this couple and yourself or

The couple and their son, their unmarried son, Eddy and I yeah.

And how did you find that were you kind of welcomed in as a member of the family or did you feel

Oh yes yes it was very good, they treated me almost as a member of the family

And what was rent prices like in comparison to your wages at that time, were your wages quite good or..

My wages were, it was a net wage of five pounds something for the week

Okay

And the uh rent was two founds five shillings per week

Was that quite a reasonable wage for the time it sounds like quite a lot for the period?

Well it was about the lowest wage you could get as a junior reporter, I think the national average was double actually

Oh okay, so for a first job for a young man it wasn’t too bad?

No it wasn’t. a young man and in-experienced. When they ask what is your experience and you have to say none. So I think a lot of people were going less than that trainees in various jobs were XXXX no it wasn’t bad at all. Enough to live on anyway survive on.

And what were your first impressions of the area?

First when I came to Barking they I had to report to the Barking Advertiser offices that were in North Street, first impression was “what a dump” because all these old buildings used as shops and um, they’ve all gone now of course, all along North Street and beyond it was the North Street school the Church of England school which again was a bit of a dump in those days you know, it all looked very shabby and our office was pretty shabby looking but the people were very nice you know you settled down and got to know people on the council, very nice. Didn’t always like what I wrote but good relation with them.

And is there anything in particular about that period of time, did you ever feel nervous or did you ever feel kind of homesick or anything

No, no. I didn’t feel at all homesick no.

No I was really well happy and well settled when I came to Barking you know.

Did you kind of feel that you were quite proud that you had made this big move by yourself and you had got this job that you really really wanted?

Yeah

Okay, and what was what kind of work were you doing when you first started then, was it kind of small local interest stories or were you working on you said you had relationships with the councillors and things in Barking was it kind of political or…

Well it was a bit of everything. The editor, if you can call him that, of the Barking Advertiser was a chap called Jack Stockdale who lived in Hurstbourne Gardens and the first job I did, I arrived on the Monday and most of my time was devoted to finding accommodation which I did on the Monday so my first working day was on the Tuesday and I was sent to these people these handicapped people who were going out on a days outing to Clacton and there was a story on their departure to Clacton. Then I was given various stories of one sort or another one was a couple who were celebrating their silver wedding anniversary.

So quite sort of nice local stories?

Yes local stories of that sort

And when was your first visit to Barking Park? What was your first experience of Barking Park?

Was on the first Saturday I was here you see, Saturday the 11^th June 1956. I had to go to a meeting in Barking Park, it was a trade union meeting some left wingers holding this rally in the bandstand of Barking Park and I was sent to cover that, it was proceeded with a recital by a silver band from the bandstand, it was very nice. It was a nice impression the park gave me, yes.

So your first impressions as you walked through the gate, obviously there were probably quite a few people around for this meeting but were you quite surprised that there was this quite lovely space in the middle of what you described as you know “some parts of Barking were a bit of a dump at that time”

Yes, well yes, really nice park. Seeing the gates for one thing they seem to be inscribed with the opening of the park and so on. There were no motor vehicles driving in the park and there was no indoor bowls centre there like there is now spoiling the look of it. There was a bandstand, now that bandstand was very important.

Could you describe the bandstand to me if that’s okay

Well I think it had a brick base but a timber structure otherwise they railings etc and the steps and um you know they’d have bands playing in the bandstand and people sat in deckchairs listening to it, on a suitable, warm, afternoon in the sun. and I suppose the major event there was the crowing of the carnival queen. They had a carnival every year which they don’t have any more and our church were going to put in an entry one year and lorries, dressed up lorries and so on. XXXX and fancy dresses on bikes and things like that but they crowning glory was always the carnival queen, always the major competition to be selected as the carnival queen and one of her attendants and they would drive on their chariot, if you like, and into the park and then the queen would be crowned by as big a celebrity as the carnival comity could find and of course it was always a major event this was the end of the bandstand was the end of the carnival. Nowhere for her to be crowned so no more carnival queen and then no more carnival.

That’s a real shame

So they got rid of that bandstand and built another one in the town centre and that was as big a disaster as the old one had been a success. All they had was a few people who go there and make a row and get religious XXXX from there otherwise it didn’t serve a purpose at all the one they built in the town centre at great expense and they knocked it down at more expense. They desperately wanted one in Chadwell Heath they didn’t re-errect it there they just dumped it and Barking Park lost its bandstand and that was a very major loss, I’d like them now if they can’t build another bandstand to have a bandstand on a lake, on an island in the lake

Um, that would be a lovely idea wouldn’t it

Well it would, my son lives in Worcester and we went there and in the they’ve got a similar thing there the band play on the lake side there and you can side on deck chairs and it was really nice.

That sounds lovely

Put the bandstand on an island in the lake that would be really welcomed by a lot of people I think. More so than some of the crazy ideas they’ve got anyway

Okay, going back to obviously your first time in Barking Park for that trade union meeting I wondered if you could talk a little bit more about that because I’ve been trying to find out information about big events that happened in the park during that period and it’s quite hard to find information and so I was wondering what with it being a political sort of meeting, which is quite rare, can you describe the number of people there, the things they were saying?

Well it was quite large, it was a pro labour anti tory meeting, this was at the time that the conservatives won in 1956 and Eden might have been prime minister then XXXX subject to correction. I tell you what if you go to the Barking Library and get a copy of the piece I wrote on that. they were all saying kick the tories out and let’s have labour in and all the pro labour speeches and all cheers XXXX

One would assume only the supporters turned up to that meeting

Of course yeah

So were there hundreds of people would you describe it as…

Perhaps a hundred, yeah.

And the people that spoke do you remember who it was that actually spoke on the day or was it a range of people or…

Several, I think mostly from different trade unions, general secretaries of this or that trade union and regional organiser and so on of trade unions.

And how would you have described the atmosphere of that event, was it quite a positive event or an angry event or…

I wouldn’t say it was angry they weren’t sort of throwing things or anything but you know they were obviously pro labour supporters anti tory and they wanted the tories out and just a meeting to express their feelings about that

And you say it was proceeded by a silver band playing um do you know who that band were or were they associated with a particular company or were they a private group?

I don’t know, we used to have various bands playing there. As I say look up the local paper for that week, I remember writing it was proceeded by this or that band and that will give you the name of it.

Okay I definitely will do, I’d already found the details for it online so I was planning on going down there some time maybe next week or the week after so I look forward to seeing your words in print.

Yeah, on microfilm you know, you need to have a good pair of glasses to read it, it’s a bit small

I best take my glasses that day then shouldn’t I?

The Barking Advertiser for June I think they have the whole year but June 1956 and if you scroll down

I look forward to looking it up

Going back to you personally obviously that was your first week in Barking pretty much like you said you came down on the Monday on the Saturday you covered the story in terms of you personally how, for example, did you meet your wife. Was that something a dance or something that was associated

It was a dance, yes.

Where was that?

It was in East Ham town hall in the Winter Hall, it used to be the indoor swimming pool and in the winter they used to put boards across the pool and use it as a dance floor.

Okay, and what year was that if you don’t mind me asking?

In 1957

1957, and were there a lot of things going on like that at the time like local dances and

In East Ham I think, one in little road. I think the biggest one was East Ham.

Mrs Richards: there were two every week

Oh there were two every week were there?

Mrs Richards: two one in the main hall and one in the Winter hall in East Ham town hall, on the Saturday there were two dances, one was in the Winter Hall and one was in the main town hall

So did you go there quite regularly then?

Mrs Richards: Every week.

So are you local to Barking or are you local to East Ham?

Mrs Richards: East Ham

Okay, you were born and raised there?

Mrs Richards: yes

So what did you think when you met this young Coventry boy?

Mrs Richards: Very handsome [laughs]

Isn’t that lovely. Did you kind of, I don’t want to be as corny as saying love at first sight or anything, but was it a case of you know you asked her to dance and then you got to know each other?

A.R: yeah, that’s about it yeah.

Lovely, it’s a real shame they don’t still do things like that really isn’t it? I mean modern discos aren’t quite the same; they don’t have quite the same sort of ambience about them.

Rose was there with a friend of hers

Okay

Joan Joan Davies, yeah

And were you there with a group of friends?

No. no

No, okay

I was there on my own.

To meet lovely ladies. [laughter]

Mrs Richards: there were several ladies there [laughs]

And did you ever go to Barking Park as a courting couple together to sort of spend time in the park

Oh yeah, yeah. And Valentines Park in Ilford as well and Mayesbrook Park and Central Park, East Ham.

Going back to Barking Park for a minute if that’s okay, did you ever sort of um obviously using it for recreation or just a little bit of down time or whatever in your spare time, did you ever do activities there like did you ever go boating? Or play sports there?

I used to like swimming there, I’d go swimming there.

Oh okay

Quite often, and rowing I even had one session at the rowing club, there used to be a rowing club active in Barking Park

And you were a member of that were you?

No, no I just went down there and saw them and got talking and they said well have a go and skiff lightweight boat, they say they’ve now found one in the old boat house

Yes

Well that may have been the very one I rowed, certainly I rowed one very much like that, under tuition.

Could you describe a skiff to me? Could you describe it for the tape if that’s okay?

Well it’s a lightweight boat with a seat that moves on rails a seat that moves, in most boats you know it’s still you just sit there and row but this was built for more speed and so your bottom is moving backwards and forwards all the time with every stroke, as in racing XXXX built as a fast boat anyway if not a racing boat.

It sounds like it was possibly quite physical, quite hard going, was it?

Well I mean rowing is quite hard I mean years later I took park in whaler racing on the Thames which is quite an exertion, yes. Especially when you’re rowing against the London Fire Brigade

[laughing] were they quite good then were they?

Good!

I would say did you see their dust but obviously on water you don’t really get a lot of dust do you, it’s probably more splashing

No. just a spray.

So was this, were you a fan of the water then? Did you kind of enjoy sort of…

Not an ardent fan of it no, I only came to rowing and whaler racing because somebody in our club, the press club, in a state of drunkenness took on the London Fire Brigade as a challenge then somebody had to fulfil this challenge so some of us did. We were no match for any of the London Fire Brigade.

But did you enjoy yourself?

Oh yes, it was enjoyable yeah yeah

I should imagine it probably wasn’t just the rowing it was more the social atmosphere

Oh yes, very much so, yes definitely. There was a session afterwards in the press club downing large quantities of drink yeah.

So a good day out

A good day out, yeah.

Going back to what you said, you went swimming in Barking Park do you remember the very first time you went to the lido in Barking Park?

The first time I saw it was on this the first time I went to Barking Park there was a large crowd of people there I can’t think of the date of the first time I went there it was soon after that, that I went swimming in Barking Park but they have the council now has a picture which I took of old Barking Park I went up the diving board to take this picture, looking across it swimmers in the pool. Masses of people in it then I wanted to come down having got this picture and other people were coming up and they said “well jump off” I’m not going to jump off with my camera so they had to get off while I came down having taken the picture, it was worth it though because they’ve got this picture which is otherwise the only recollection they had of what the pool was like in those days.

Yeah, I’ve heard it was a very, very busy place to be on a summer’s day

On a warm summers day it really packed out yeah. Of course one nice thing when we moved here in 1964 it used to be nice to go on a warm summer’s morning at seven o’clock when the pool opened and you could have a swim before breakfast, there would perhaps be about half a dozen people there at that time.

So even at that time of the morning there were still people at the lido?

Well I say some of us, about half a dozen of us, would go down to the lido yeah at that time.

Was it a little bit chilly at that time in the morning?

Sometimes a little bit but not much you know, of course they had to have a woman on to take the money in the office and they had to have a lifesaver on even if you were a champion swimmer you’ve got to have a lifesaver on for members of the public in the pool XXXX

Do you remember much about the staff in the pool do you remember any particular characters or any particular lifeguards?

I don’t think I ever got to know any of them, no.

I’ve heard that the lifeguards could be a little bit strict about certain things in the pool do you remember that, them sort of shouting at people?

No, I don’t. they just sat there on a pedestal there was never any incident I can remember where he was called upon to intervene he just had to sort of be there in case he was needed.

And was there only ever one or was there sometimes during busy periods more than one?

I can only ever remember one, maybe more but.

In terms of you saying it obviously just to get quite busy obviously in the summer are we talking in terms of sixty people, seventy, eighty? Because I know it was quite a bit pool wasn’t it? It was quite large

I never counted of course, if you look at the number of people in that picture I’d of thought it’d have to be in the hundreds, well over a hundred I would have thought. But I just don’t know, have a look at the picture and see how many people you see in that.

I could be a little game at my next session couldn’t it? Count the number of people in the picture, keep people on their toes.

And in terms of features at the pool I know the two fountains are obviously something that a lot of people talk about I was wondering if you could describe those for the tape?

They are being persevered for the new pool, they were quite an attraction for visitors to the pool so at least we’re having those not in the new pool in the new wet area. Hmm goodness. Fairly large fountains, I’d of thought about twelve foot diameter something like that with a spout coming up in the middle yes.

I’ve heard that some children used to climb up and play in them when they weren’t supposed to. Is that something that you remember?

I think so, yeah. Not by doing any harm or anything and people were quite happy to let them.

Um I’ve also heard that there was kind of like an ice cream shop in the lido, do you remember that at all?

No, I don’t. I don’t remember any retail outlet there at all

Okay, what about in the park in general because I’ve also heard that there was a café actually in the park, do you remember that?

Yeah, yeah.

Oh lovely. Okay could you describe that to me if that’s okay?

Well it was an old building which has long since been demolished that served light refreshments, coffee and biscuits and a packet of crisps and things like that, you wouldn’t get any sort of a meal you see. And they’re going to have a café now, I hope what they have isn’t going to serve anything more than light refreshments otherwise people will go there just for a meal, the idea was that you have somewhere that people can go and if they feel a bit peckish okay they can have a cup of tea or something but they don’t go there for that purpose they go to enjoy the park and the refreshment is there if they need it

Do you think that’s quite important then, that people don’t think of the park as sundry to the to the sort of facilities?

Well yes, about ten years ago we had this proposal to build a family restaurant they called it, we called it a pub in the park and uh the public enquiry that arose from it the inspector said well they won’t go there to enjoy the park they’ll go there to drink and so the council argument was that it would attract more business to the park but it won’t it’ll attract them to the pub and then they’ll go home again. They won’t be visiting the park to enjoy its facilities. So if it’s something more than just a café people may go there for just a meal and that’s not the reason for visiting the park, you visit the park to enjoy the park and the refreshment is ancillary to that.

Okay. It’s an interesting point isn’t it because I know that obviously some people would like a place to stop and buy their children a drink or an ice-cream but I wonder how many people want to go down for a sit down meal because it just doesn’t seem like the right sort of setting does it?

Well that’s the point isn’t it

Parks are for picnics I think. Talking of picnics actually did you ever sort of go down there for picnics with friends and family.

No, I can’t remember us doing that no. quite a lot of people did but I didn’t, no.

What would be your kind of most enduring or strongest memory of the park how it was in the sort of fifties and sixties? What would it be that you would say that stood out the most in your mind?

It was a lovely wide open space with greenery with trees and the lake was featured very much in it and such a lot of activity, sporting activity and the lido that I remember of the park in the fifties.

You mentioned then about the sort of open space and the green and the trees was that something that was important to you as someone who was sort of living in quite an urban area?

Yes that’s right because when you’re used to living in a rural area or a semi-rural area anyway and I, it really was refreshing to come out of a concrete jungle into the nice greenery.

Would you say that the same is still true today obviously because the area is even more urban now than anything?

That’s why I say it’s all the more important to preserve parks and open spaces

Of course

That’s why I am opposed to any building on park land, like that indoors bowls centre they should have cited it somewhere else. I think they’re doing more building there than is necessary and there’s the visitor centre and the educational centre and so on and they were planning to use part of XXXX Park as a cemetery, opposed to that you know. We’ve got to hang on to every square yard of open space and of course they want to have more and more affordable housing so you see what they’re doing in the park now they’re pinching more and more of Mayesbrook Park for the £400000 grant from Boris Johnson thanks to us voting for it and you should see the mess they’re making of Mayesbrook Park now, it’s terrible.

Really? I don’t know much about Mayesbrook Park

I only saw it yesterday and I thought ergh heaven forbid!

You’re not happy about it

No, not at all. It’s ceasing to be well there’s this big. Well the football club they allocated this park part of it to the football club and they’re having this XXXX great stadium there you know, sorry but parks are not there to be built on.

So how do you feel about the current renovations going on at Barking Park then because obviously they are building a new café, a new classroom, are you okay with that?

I think it’s. well you’ve got to have a café okay and they demolished one so we’re going to have another one um the education centre, okay I think so long as it stops where it is uh I raise no objection to that, the wet area okay they’re preserving the old facade of the old lido so long as there’s no further building, see I joined the, as did my wife, joined the friends of Barking Park not that I agree with what the council are doing, I disagree with a lot it but I wanted to make sure they didn’t commit any more disasters like having a pub in the park and having an indoor bowls centre in the middle of it. To be friends of the park and protect it from disasters like that because quite honestly with friends like Barking and Dagenham council the park doesn’t need enemies does it?

Is that one of your biggest concerns then being a local resident in the area that you’re worried that you know…

I want to preserve the park as it was when we first moved here, well we can’t do that as they put up the indoor bowls centre and they’ve allowed driving in the park which we never used to have.

The driving seems to be quite a contentious issue, obviously with the car parking things as well.

Yeah,

Could you kind of explain some of your concerns about park driving

Well when we first moved here driving in the park was an offence, bi-law offence, and apart from service vehicles which are obviously essential no motor vehicles were to be driven in the park. Then they built the indoor bowls centre, well that was a hell of a cause of contention especially as it was right plum in the middle of the park and uh the council made this enormous loan very low interest to a company called the Barking and District indoor bowls club limited uh two of whose members were leading members of the council. The leader of the council and the chairman of the parks committee and they didn’t declare their interest when it came to vote on it and we were strongly opposed to that all along and because they had this new bowls centre with VIP members who were members of the council they had to provide parking for them they couldn’t park as people had done hither to, people were not allowed to park there so they would either come by public transport or they’d park in nearby roads or whatever but no they had to have a special car park and cars driven in the park to serve this indoor bowls centre, so all together that caused a lot of anger, anger particularly though that two leading members of the council were members of it and never mentioned it at council meetings.

Do you kind of feel that their own agenda was pushed through

Yeah well you’ve only got to look at the minutes all the difference to the Barking and Dagenham indoor bowls club and they said “yes must build the duh duh duh” they wouldn’t of done that had it been any other company applying to “can we borrow £100,000 at low interest” oh yeah you keep that under your hat. A company which two members of the council have an interest “oh yes of course you can”. The whole thing smelt and it still does.

In terms of obviously people being able to drive in the park now do you think that that has effected um because obviously Barking Park is supposed to be a haven for local wildlife do you think it’s had an impact on the wildlife either positively or negatively?

Well certainly not positively, I don’t think it’s had much of an impact, the squirrels are still there and

There’s hundreds of them isn’t there?

Yeh yeh, well foxes yeah but it doesn’t affect them, I’ve never seen badgers or anything like that there. Water fowl, it doesn’t go close enough to the lake to affect that. I don’t think it’s affected much of the wildlife no.

But you know previously you could go into the park and let your kids run around, you had to keep an eye out of paedophiles but you know there was no danger from motor vehicles but now there is. I complained about this when it was first introduced but the council then put up speed humps to reduce speed all the way up to this indoor bowls centre car park.

So before that would people sort of go at speed down it.

Yeh yeah, I complained about it

Do they, they just fly over the bumps instead

Well they still do but at least they’ve got to slow down a bit for each bump so that reduces it a bit, they eliminated the speed bumps now at this end of the park. I don’t know why, I think maybe the contractor was saying it was upsetting their heavy vehicles. No I think it was a mistake to ever allow motor vehicles inside the park, or if they were ever going to have one they should have had it at the South Park drive end where they’re having it in the park now and you can park there and walk. They were complaining at the time that I was objecting at the time of introducing the cars into the park.

Sorry when did they start with the cars in the park, was that in the early seventies?

1971 yeah. They were saying all these old people they need their cars to take them to the bowls centre well my answer was that if they’re fit enough to bowl a set of woods then they’re fit enough to walk about two hundred yards to the bowls centre.

What was the reaction to that statement?

Well they just dis… shrugged it off if they don’t like what you’re saying they just disregard it and a friend of mine is a member of the bowls club, the outdoor bowls club he’s complaining that this car park that they’ve now set out provides fifty-four spaces which is not enough, it means that a lot of bowls people won’t be able to park, well he seems to think that if they can’t park then they won’t go, I don’t see why they can’t go on public transport get on the bus especially as a lot of them have freedom passes anyway so they travel for nothing why they can’t get on the buses and get off at Faircross Avenue and just cross the, walk about two or three hundred yards.

Is that what you would like to see happen then, more people use public transport?

Oh yes. They’ve got rid of a bowling green in order to provide this car park

Of course

Well they say they only need one now well that’s rubbish. I produced a video in the nineties for friends in XXXX Germany and it showed the bowling greens, each of them with a men’s match in one with a ladies match in the other but now they say that they only need one bowling green. Well frankly I don’t accept that, there’s lot of interest in bowling and always has been ever since, almost since the park first opened in 1898 bowling has always been. I mean Drake was bowling when the armada arrived, it’s always been a major attraction and to have an active men’s and women’s section of the club and now they say we only need one green. We only need one green because they want to convert one green into a car park.

I saw a fabulous photo actually, I think it was from 1921 or something of the old bowling green of men in their straw boaters and things and it just, nostalgia just floats off it doesn’t it

And the ladies as well as I say there were two matches going on, this was in the nineties there were two matches going on in the two greens and now they’re told they only need one green. They’re very good at putting out twaddle this council, they really are.

You don’t look best amused by it though

No. well I mean we’ve had some much twaddle over this development in the park you know.

Are you comfortable with the current development now though, are you kind of…

Not entirely, they’re dredging the lake or have dredged the lake or part of it. That’s jolly good, it really was filthy, it needed it to get the silt out of it. And they drained the lake XXXX until the lake was empty then, free of water and they bought in these heavy machines digging out silt, 13000 tons of it. But they stopped short about eighty or ninety yards short of the end of the western lake and I asked why “oh we’ve decided it’s unnecessary to dredge the rest of the lake” well why dredge any of it then if you’re going to leave some of it undredged “oh no we’re going to, it’s been decided that we’re going to remove the quantity of silt as was laid down in the contract and that’s it” well somebody got there sums wrong didn’t they when calculating how much silt needs to be removed, you’d better dredge the rest. So anyway I got a letter in the post last week and the week before the Hogan, the chief of the dredging he replied to my previous letter saying you know, if a child falls into the lake in that part they’ve got about twelve inches of silt to fall into because while the water was out of the lake, I went over the wall from Ilford Lane into the undredged part of the late and dug out a bucket full of silt, about twelve inches, I haven’t put it back I’ve still got a pot of it out there. I produced it at a meeting of the friends of Barking Park, “look this is what your kid is going to fall into if they don’t dredge that lake” I got an angry letter from Mike what’s it name the man in charge of the HLF grant saying “you should not trespass on that part of the lake it’s in the hands of the construction company” I said “well if anyone’s going to complain they’ll complain, I had to dig this out to show what a load of twaddle your councillors are talking, there was the evidence. I’d have produced a copy at our meeting if I hadn’t dropped the thing and lost it.

I was just wondering, how did the lake get that dirty? Do you remember it being that dirty in the fifties and sixties?

No, they used to drain it

Mrs Richards: they’d drain it every year or every other year and dredge it

A.R: yeah quite frequently they used to drain it and it never got that dirty, I think it was the use of motorboats, see there were no motorboats when I first came to Barking and they introduced motorboats, which they’re not going to have anymore. I think they played a, quite a part in it getting so dirty. There is filthy horrible gooey stuff in it though and you know a kid could sink up to his knees in it or beyond that, when you get stuck in that stuff it’s difficult to move.

So it is kind of a thick muddy type stuff is it kind of gloopey, is gloopey a word I’m just making up words now aren’t i?

It’s just all gooey and

I think it’s quite interesting what you said about how the lake wasn’t really that dirty until the introduction of motorboats, so hopefully now with, as you say, they’re not putting motorboats back on it maybe it won’t get so dirty.

Won’t get so dirty no, I can’t think of why it otherwise will. As I say they used to have rowing boats and sailing boats now they did have these mock paddle steamers the Phoenix the second but that was about the only mechanically powered vehicle on the lake.

Did you go on the Phoenix?

Mrs Richards: yes

Oh you did, could you describe that experience of travelling on the phoenix paddle steamer

Mrs Richards: I don’t think you ever travelled on it did you?

A.R: I think we did yes

Mrs Richards: I did when I was younger, it was lovely. It was like being at the seaside.

Oh really, because it’s really quite an iconic image. Whenever I show that image to anybody they’re always kind of like “oh wow I remember that” would it be okay if you could just describe your experience of going on it as a child if that’s alright

Mrs Richards: well I was very young, I’ve got to rake my memory but it was quite an outing, we used to live at East Ham and to come to Barking Park was an outing, this was just after the war really when things were and we had a trip on the railway and a trip on the phoenix and it was a real like a day out it was a day out, it was lovely to see the water and the things going around and around and the water splashing

I think I’ve got an image of it here actually, let me just get it out a second. Here that might bring back some memories for you

Mrs Richards: yeah

Is that how you remember it?

Mrs Richards: yes, yes to see this wheel at the back going around and splashing the water, used to look at it with amazement.

Do you used to sit there and just watch it did you?

A.R: I asked the council for permission to use the Phoenix to hold my twenty first birthday party

Oh really? Did you?

They refused it you know

Oh, why did they refuse it?

No they recorded in the minutes that they would refuse any similar application they did not think it suitable

Oh right, they didn’t think it suitable for the twenty first birthday

You’d give the boatman a slice of cake of course you would

Do you remember the staff that worked on the lake at all?

Well not personally, you saw them you met them.

What were they like?

The people in charge of the boats and so on, they knew their job and they were nice people and the chap who until a couple of years ago ran the boating and the well he ran the boating up until about four years before that he ran the railway as well a chap called Alex, I don’t know his surname

Okay

That’s interesting, I’ll see if I can find out some more about him

As my wife said you’d go on the railway and then on the boats until they shifted the boat house from its previous position to the new one about 400 yards away when the railway was running you could go off the train walk a couple yards to the boat house and get on a boat from train to boat. Of course you can’t when the boat house is 400 yards further along the lakeside. So that rather spoils that, the connection between train and boat.

So can you remember sort of stepping off the train and getting onto the boat pretty much

Don’t distinctly, I went both on train and boat but I don’t remember going off one and on to the other, the thing is people could do and people did.

Can you describe the train for me if that’s okay because I know the train have recently started up again but I was wondering if they were the original trains because they had to narrow the gauge.

Yes the old gauge from 1937 was a nine and a half in gauge from the lodge to the lakeside called the lakeside halt now. They were open carriages of course with a steam locomotive, it was all owned by the council in those days and the council owned the locomotive as well and they used to maintain it, they’d off load the locomotive onto a council vehicle and take it to a council workshop for it to be serviced. It was very nice. I remember in 1959 I did a story for the local paper and I was interviewing this chap who was the driver of the steam locomotive because he had just retired he used to drive mainline trains out for Liverpool Street to Norwich and so on. And his retirement job was driving a much smaller locomotive, much slower. And yeah it was a nice story, there is one chap I met who worked on the railway.

That’s really interesting that it was a retired sort of real train driver who ended up working on the miniature railway, that’s really interesting.

Yeah that’s right, that was the story about it you see. Used to drive real trains at seventy miles per hour from Liverpool Street to Kings Lynn then driving this at five miles an hour a much smaller thing, the loco was housed in the brick worker shed, of course that all came to an end and the line was taken over by this chap Alex and he used to keep the carriages in the lakeside station of course they were a target for vandals and graffiti artists. You see now there’s only part of this railway in operation and we’ve got the workshop which holds four locos now XXXX together with the carriages.

Are they the original locos then?

No, no because they original were nine and a half inch gauge these are seven and a quarter gauge, a narrower gauge. And all the rolling stock, the locos and all the rolling stock are housed in the workshop. There’s a hoist to lift them up on to a two tiered mounting, you know. It keeps them out of the way of vandals so yes, for a couple of years now we’ve had the railway running.

It’s lovely, I can’t wait to have a go on it.

Oh yeah you must

I really must have a go

Definitely yes, well unfortunately you can’t get off the train onto a boat now and you won’t be able to even when the boating is back in operation

No that is a shame, I’ve heard that the railway used to go right down by the other side of the lake as well, is that anything that you remember?

No, people say that a railway used to run on the north side of the lake but I’ve not seen any picture of it and certainly not in my time.

And it’s quite interesting because you actually say to them in that piece that you wrote that you gave to me at the session that we had I think you actually had a opening date for the railway which is 1937 I think you said which is really interesting because no one else seems to remember when the railway actually opened so it’s really good that we’ve managed to pin that down a little bit more so it was late thirties that it opened.

On its present course, yes.

So do you think it existed but on a slightly different route or something?

Well as I say the previous route, or so I’m told, although I have no knowledge of it myself was on the north side of the lake.

Mmm that’s really interesting, it’d be wonderful if we could find out wouldn’t it?

Yeah if we can

There doesn’t seem to be any documentation supporting it

I’d like to see a picture of it, quite a few people have said to me there used to be a railway running along there, people who seem fairly reliable.

It’s one of those memories isn’t it, memories of a funny thing

Mrs Richards: they’d know the other side of the lake, I’ll ask Jean when I see her

A.R: you’ll ask Jean? Rose’s friend Jean, she’s a bit older than we are.

Mrs Richards: She’s eighty something and she used to live in Park Avenue she remembers quite a lot about the park

Does she still live locally?

Yes, she lives in Cecil Avenue

Oh right okay, if she does want to get involved in the project please give her my number won’t you?

Yes I will, I will

Someone tried to persuade her to come to the park meeting and talk about it once but she wouldn’t, she’s not all that well but she might speak if you went into her and spoke to her.

Another thing in the park just after the war, whether it was to celebrate the end of the war or not I don’t know, they had a hog roast. I was only small, I vaguely remember but I know there were crowds of people and we came from East Ham because it was such an event when food was on rationing to have this

Of course

A.R: I bet you had to give up your food coupons to get anything from that though

Mrs Richards: I don’t think so, I don’t think so. You had to pay of course but I don’t think so.

Well I heard that the area was quite famous at one point for pig farming wasn’t it, and apparently the pub used to be called something the fly…

A.R: Oh the Fly House that is now the royal oak

So maybe they were local piggies that they managed to liberate from a farm.

I’ve never heard about the pig farming

Mrs Richards: it was such an event

So was it just a hog roast or was it a carnival atmosphere as well

Well I think it was a celebration, I think it must of been the end of the war I can’t remember that much. And there was just the pig, no there wasn’t a carnival and it was in the evening I remember that but that’s about it.

It does seem like the park was used for quite a lot of events we were talking about the fairs and the carnivals earlier I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that if that’s okay because I remember in that piece you mentioned someone’s name who used to run it?

A.R: oh yes, Tom Holland

John Holland?

He was a real character.

Could you describe him to me, in what way was he a character

He was a jovial character I’d of thought in his sixties when I knew him, he’d be long since dead now of course

And what kind of time frame was this was this in the sixties, seventies?

This would be in the late fifties and when we moved in to this house in the sixties as well yes. Tom Holland’s funfair. And he had this luxury caravan he’s invite you in for a refreshment and get the gin bottle out. He was a business man, he ran the funfair everyone in the funfair liked and respected him and the public did as well, he was a very charismatic man.

And what about sort of physical characteristics was he kind of, I don’t know, maybe it’s me but in my head I’ve got some sort of image of because as you say he was the funfair and he was a charismatic figure I’ve heard a little bit from other people about him but I imagine this very tall man in a very proper suit and was he kind of like that?

No

Obviously because I’ve never met him I’m just making up my own mental image of him so I was just wondering if you could

Well he was always wear dress in as much as he could welcome the mayoral party and he installed good order, I wouldn’t of liked to have crossed him or got on the wrong side of him. But people didn’t get on the wrong side of him they just respected him and worked with him.

Okay

Very good business man, he ran the fair and had a business.

People also seem to talk a lot about dances taking place within the park did you guys ever attend a dance in the park at all?

Dance in the park?

Mrs Richards: I think we did once didn’t we? Someone you knew was doing a western or something like that and we came

A.R: Country and Western?

Mrs Richards: Country and Western, I may be wrong it may not have been Barking Park it could have been

A.R: at the time that I met the wife I was associated with a group of country and western performers, The Mavericks, they used to perform in various places maybe they did perform in the park, I don’t recall it but maybe they did.

And what about the, I know we’ve talked about the staff and you said you didn’t really know any of the staff personally, but what about the sort of park keepers and the park wardens do you have any sort of memories of them or their characters or their dress or could you describe any aspect of them?

Well the park superintendant, Gordon Curry, I knew well. He received me as a guest into his house in I think it was XXXX begins with an F, anyway he lives in that part of Barking.

Sorry, his name was Gordon…

Gordon Curry, curry as in curry and chips

And what was he like?

He, in many ways was like Tom Holland, he really commanded respect of his staff and he knew, oh he knew plants. He’d done his apprenticeship at Kew Gardens, he was a broad Cornish man. If you went and saw him in the park “you want to know the name of all the plants” there was about 300 plants and he knew the Latin names for all of them and there was nothing about plants that he didn’t know.

Wow

One really nice thing that he used to organise, if there was a celebration of some sort and anniversary of somebody he would lay out their coat of arms on that mound as you go into the park now all in the plants, very precise coat of arms. The British legion or the Boy Scouts or something like that. there’s a nice display of flowers there now but as I say this would be an all floral display of the coat of arms of a particular body.

Mrs Richards: he had the borough coats of Barking once didn’t he, the coat of arms of Barking.

A.R: oh of Barking Town Council yes. That may have been when it ceased to be when it was amalgamated with Dagenham.

That’s a really lovely thing to do to sort of…

Yes it was.

Mrs Richard: it was beautiful.

Was he a quite a generous man in general do you think?

Yes, I think so. He took me down to Blackfriars rugby match once, he was a keen rugby fan, come along and see Blackfriars rugby club.

So how did he end up in this part of the world then, did he move up to go do his apprenticeship at Kew Gardens and then stayed?

I don’t know, I don’t know how he. Certainly he was born and bred in Cornwall and he did his apprenticeship at Kew Gardens perhaps how he moved to the London area he’d married and settled down in the drive, in the drive way there.

I’m sorry did you say you’d had children?

Yes, we have one son and one daughter yes

And when were they born?

John, our son, was born on the eleventh of December 1968 and Mary, our daughter was born on the fifteenth of March 1978.

And do you have memories of, obviously being in such close proximity to the park here, do you have memories of sending them off to the park in the summer holidays

Well not sending them off, we used to take them especially when Tom Holland’s fair was there. We used to go. I don’t know if it was still Tom Holland’s by that time. The fair anyway. John always wanted to go on this same round about a woman with a child ran it, used to come every time and we always went on that and on various, oh yes we used to go on shooting galleries, you know. Oh yes they enjoyed going, not just to the fun fair but to the park generally XXXX on the train. Yeah.

It must have been quite convenient being in such close proximity to take them over of an evening.

Yes that was one of the attractions of living here you know the proximity to the park yeah.

Mrs Richards: I used to take Mary to the paddling pool, she loved it, the little paddling pool there

A.R: that’s not there anymore. And there’s no plans to have another one.

Was the paddling pool free then?

Oh yes. Yes.

Oh right okay, lovely.

Open air.

Mrs Richards: and it wasn’t fenced you could just go, no fence up it was all open

So it was a nice sort of you know…

Yeah.

I’m kind of thinking it was quite an economical sort of way of amusing you children, because you know children love water don’t they.

Oh yes, and you could sort of change your mind and you could stay a little while or a long time

Depending on how much fun they’re having

Yes, and we used to take the dog sometimes with us.

A.R: and the putting green was quite near used to go and play on the putting green.

Oh right, where was the putting green?

It was just opposite the paddling pool. You came down the central drive, well Prince George’s avenue and when you got to the bottom of it it was on the right.

I’ve heard there was giant chess set by the paddling pool as well do you remember that at all?

No I don’t, Norma does, our friend Norma Smith, she well remembers it but I don’t.

Mrs Richards: I’ve got a vague memory of it but I couldn’t tell you where it was.

I’m surprised there aren’t pictures of it because I did go through the archives looking for it because it strikes me as the kind of thing that people would want to take pictures of but maybe that’s just me but it certainly sounds like there was a lot to do

Well things were just always there so you took them for granted

Yeah, of course, of course.

So did you often take pictures in the park yourself with your family

No

No, it’s like an extension of your back garden I suppose, isn’t it?

yes, yes.

And what would you say your children enjoyed most about the park growing up?

Freedom I suppose, freedom to run around.

A.R: run around. They used to take the dogs, I’ll shut up now you’ve already heard that didn’t you.

That obviously meant cuddle didn’t it [laughter]

Like you said your daughter particularly enjoyed the paddling pool, was your son a fan of the paddling pool?

Mrs Richards: No, he wasn’t so keen on the water. He, no.

What about things like climbing trees or sort of made up games, no?

the fair was his particular XXXX he loved the fair.

That sounds like boys though doesn’t it, they like a bit of danger.

You went on so many with him once that you came home feeling sick did you?

[laughter]

A.R: the Mexican hat.

What was the Mexican hat?

Well it was a thing they rotated and gyrated and it went all over the place in different planes and you came out feeling sick at the end of it.

Mrs Richards: John didn’t, he was fine.

A.R: no but I’d had a couple of pints of beer before it.

Mrs Richards: oh well there are you are, you didn’t say that!

[laughter]

You’ve caught yourself out now look, she never knew. So would they sell sort of would there be food stalls so you could get candy floss or buy a beer.

Yeah there was candy floss there, I don’t know, did they sell beer?

A.R: no, I don’t think they had any alcohol,

Mrs Richards: no, alcohol wasn’t allowed.

A.R: Well they wouldn’t now because they’ve abolished it.

Yeah I know alcohol isn’t allowed in the park now is it at all?

Mind you they were going to have a pub there at one stage.

Seems a little contradictory doesn’t it?

Mrs Richards: Candy floss and hot dogs.

The whole sort of carnival atmosphere. And I’ve heard that the people who actually used to run the rides where gypsies did you hear anything about that?

A.R: manned the what sorry?

The people who ran the rides

Rides, oh maybe.

Mrs Richards: I think some were because we used to have people come knocking at the door trying to sell us heather and tell our fortune always when the fair was here.

Did you ever take them up on the offer of fortune telling?

A.R: Maybe we’d have had a different fortune if we had.

So where do your children live now? Do they still live in the Barking area?

Mrs Richards: yes, Mary does, John lives in Worcester

So he’s sort of moved up and out sort of thing?

He has yes.

Do they still come up and go to the park often?

No, Mary does but not John no.

And how about you guys do you go down there often? I know you said you were the members of the friends of barking park now.

Sometimes

A.R: yes, well I also take part in the running of the railway so I go over for that

Mrs Richards: and you take the dogs over there

A.R: and almost every day I take the dogs over there

Mrs Richards: I don’t go so much I feel a bit intimidated really, it’s a shame that I do.

Could you describe why you feel intimidated?

Well I’ve had, last time I went was last Wednesday I took the two dogs with me and I walked along, it may have been nothing it’s just the feeling I walked along what is the cycle path from this entrance to the entrance in King George avenue, a man came in riding his bike straight along the path, fine, then he turned and rode right the way back and then went out. And I thought that was a strange thing to do and I think I don’t know I wasn’t carrying anything apart from the dogs and I thought perhaps he’s looking to see if I’ve got a handbag or a phone and the time before this was when the old bowls club was there and I had our old dog the bowling green the one that’s been knocked down and man was sitting there looking at the bowls and he saw me walk with the dog and he came straight out and started talking to me about the dog and I thought well this is strange and he said “oh what a lovely dog” yes I said “he doesn’t bark he just bites” and with that he went

Right okay

But previously about 3 months ago I was walking in there with the two dogs again and this man came, black man this was, came straight across and started talking to me and I just ignored him and he went walking off and I thought “why, why pick me out”

I wouldn’t go, well I would go there on my own but I don’t enjoy it so much.

Okay, do you feel with the introduction of park keepers and park wardens that would make it more of a safe environment for people to go and enjoy without the fear of being accosted.

Yeah, yes.

I know that’s something they’re planning on.

Well they’re there now but you don’t see them very much.

A.R: you see they’ve got their own police squad now.

[phone rings]

Sorry.

[tape paused]

She’d like to see it a bit safer, some of the people hanging around there are, which of course we have a residents association XXXX and we have a report from the police each time and they , a lot of drug, mostly lower case drugs, cannabis. We’ve had some heroine though you know, class A drug. A lot of drug taking and pushing and they always do a lot of cautions and arrests in Barking Park.

I’d heard a lot of that had been cleared up in recent years.

Yeah it had, more and more patrols and they’re picking up more and more offenders. It was not long ago there was a bunch of Albanians who claimed that a part of the park belonged to them and no one else was to go there.

Crikey, when was that?

Oh, only a few months ago. As a result the police set up a dispersal order well the council set up a dispersal order enabling the police to rather like reading the riot act and say “right you disappear and if you’re still here in ten minutes time you’ll be arrested”

They all cleared out pretty quick did they?

Dispersal, yes

So certainly there are a few characters that are not exactly welcome in the park, I think that’s what Mary was referring to.

I think it can be quite intimidating I think people in general if you see a group of young people on bikes it can be a bit intimidating especially if you’re on your own or a woman or on you’re a little bit older but I have heard that they’ve done great things to try and improve the park

Yes an enormous amount, some of the Albanians were aggressive with it. Saying why are you here this is our place you get out. People walking their dogs were complaining about them

No one wants to be accosted if they’re just having a nice day do they?

It’s a shame really that it’s a small minority who ruin it for other people, but there are some

But I suppose one danger is really if you get one group who are dangerous and they go up in a group to take on these Albanians and there’s warfare in the park

Crikey

Anyway I think the Albanians have been calmed down, they’re still there but I think they’re behaving themselves now.

That’s good. Progress.

I was going to say actually I think we’ve actually covered everything, is there anything you’d like to add that you would like to be recorded for the project?

Well what I would like to see is the park restored as it was when I first saw it but that unfortunately isn’t possible.

Would you like to see them perhaps built a bandstand?

Would you like to see them perhaps built a bandstand?

Yeah. I can’t think where they’d put it now, I’d like to see a bandstand built on one of the islands in the lake and people could sit in deckchairs on the bank of the lake, you’d have to have a raft to transport the musicians and their instruments across to the island. I think that would be a big attraction. Because at the moment you’ve got no you used to have music there when I first came to Barking. Which you don’t have any more.

Mrs Richards: we do, we have the mellor

A.R: yeah but I mean regular week by week during the summer anyway performances on the bandstand, I mean the mellor there’s an event for asian people once a year, they have various other things that attract XXXX someone off the council is in charge of events to arrange events in the park okay when they have an event they have music, blared out on loud speakers, blow your ears off and we have to complain about that and have it turned down and have it finished earlier. On one event they’re going to have it on until one o’clock in the morning and have it on loud speakers

And of course being so close to the park you can probably hear it all can’t you?

Mrs Richards: you can’t hear yourself talk, or you couldn’t this time we complained about it, you couldn’t hear yourself in the garden dreadful and we’re quite away from the park. Dreadful. But they have stopped it at eight o’clock now, which is a bit better.

A.R: well yeah they have music but only when they have an event, when they had a bandstand they would have different kinds of music, people have different tastes in music some people like classical music some people like r’n’b you have different groups, you can’t please everyone all of the time but

I think classical tends to cover all basses though doesn’t it classical is so varied so

Mrs Richards: it is but they wouldn’t like it if their r’n’b or rock

A.R: well I can’t imagine Norma liking r’n’b [laughter] some people wouldn’t be so fond of classical you’ve got to give and take. Have a bit of what you do like and what you don’t like. I think if they had somewhere they could provide live music in the park that would be a big attraction, that would be nice if they could have it on an island in the lake. And have people sitting on deck chairs.

Every Sunday afternoon or something, wouldn’t that be nice?

Mrs Richards: even once a month if they couldn’t manage that.

A.R that’s one thing

Mrs Richards: Worcester have it, why can’t we?

A.R: and of course the open air swimming pool, that was a major attraction, I used to like swimming in there. A wet area for kids, well for anyone I think, is just no substitute for an open air swimming pool. And no paddling pool at all and no putting green, these things used to give people pleasure which we’ve not got any more. So I think I’d like to see those restore.

Mrs Richards: there used to be a small section of the lake that was just for children and little paddle boats.

A.R: yes at the far end of the lake it was fenced off, very shallow water with wide low shallow boats, only about six inches of water, kids couldn’t come into any harm in that except to get wet

Mrs Richards: they loved it! Mary went on it and I think John did, to be on their own in charge.

To be driving, there’s nothing more that children like than feeling like a grown up

Being on their own

A.R: see what they’re proposing on the lake? No motor boats, they’re all going to be rowing boats where you wind the handle

oh right

when they had motor boats and rowing boats you’d see a queue of people to get motor boats but rowing boats you could get straight away. But people are lazy they don’t want to have to go around with exertion

That’s part of the fun isn’t it?

They just want to sit and have a motor to transport them around the lake effortlessly so I don’t know how many people they’re going to get interested in hiring rowing boats.

I think you’d be surprised because I live in Walthamstow where epping forest starts and there’s a boating lake up by whipps cross and that’s really popular on a summer’s day you see loads of people on their row boats I am wondering if the nostalgia of it is what appeals to some people

Perhaps I am wrong, I hope I’m wrong.

I’m not saying that I'm just saying I think rowing boats could still work, I appreciate your point about people like the speed and the power of the motor boat but I am a fan of the rowing boat

They’re just lazy.

Mrs Richards: if there’s no alternative they might.

Maybe that’s a good thing that there’s no alternative force people to get some exercise

Well all these obese.

Like you say they made the lake much dirtier as well didn’t they

A.R: well if it works it’ll be a good thing, and they’ve got XXXX to have somebody running it, two years ago they said they were confident of finding someone and two years on they’re still looking for someone

I hope they find one soon

The railway have to dip into his own pocket a lot to keep that going, it’s only because he’s got quite a large family and several members of his family will work for nothing otherwise he would have to employ them and this chap who is going to run the boating, I am sure he is going to have to dip into his own pocket. Because you’ve got to have staff, either his own family working for nothing or employ people and can you then run boats at a price people are willing to pay, but they’ve got to buy the boats yet for one thing.

Maybe that can be a little woodworking project for the local colleges to build some rowing boats

Well they did ask at one of the friends meeting if they can get one of these boat people if they can come around and bring samples of their boats for us to have a look at and see which ones we’d like to have on the lake. But they don’t seemt o have done that.

Mrs Richards: we were supposed to be going to see what kind of seats they had but nothing has happened about that. these people if they’re anxious to sell their wares you think they’d bring them along to show us and let us make our choice.

A bit of schmoozing would probably be a good idea wouldn’t it, coming round and letting you try it all out.

Even where we want them we can’t really have them where we wanted them. They’re placing where they think.

A.R: you see that fact is why they stopped the dredging of the lake I said well you’ve run out of money haven’t you? “no we haven’t run out of money we have exhausted our budget” [laughter] some of the budget for that park and they’ve dug out the quantity of silt as required some of it was clay anyway if they spend any more on that then there’ll be no more to spend on seats and boats and things like that so in effect they have run out of money they’ve run out of the amount they intended to spend on that particular part of the project.

Yeah and they’re just being a bit creative with their words aren’t they?

Mrs Richards: as always.

[laughter]

A.R: [mumbles XXXX]

But I suppose if it comes down to the choice between silting the rest of the lake and making sure people have places to sit and boats to row on then they’ve got to prioritise.

Well somebody obviously got his sums wrong when calculating how much silt they’d have got.

Maybe they didn’t realise how dirty it was

Mrs Richards: or they dug out more than they should

A.R: well they dug out a lot of clay down to two metres, they didn’t need to go down to two metres

So they’ve made it quite a bit deeper as well

Yes down to two metres so if anyone falls out of the boat and can’t swim I hope there’s a few people around to fish them out.

Might need a life guard.

And they don’t think it’s necessary to have life belts around the lake whoever gets the project of the boats is going to take on the cost of the lifebelts. I think the council should provide that anyway wherever you have water there should be lifebelts.

Well they do don’t they in like if you walk along the thames the southbank or something they’ve normally got sort of like life rings every few yards.

The funny thing is they got some chap down with his girlfriend to demonstrate how to throw a lifering to someone and this girl was in the lake and various council people not getting anything near her why we have to have tuition when there aren’t any life rings I don’t know.

Does seem a little redundant, sounds like they were just playing hoopla with her.

Yes that’s right [laughs]

The closest person gets a goldfish or something

It would have been cheaper to jump in and go to her, but you’d have got stuck in the silt.

Well thank you for sharing you memories with me, I’ve got quite a few notes here to be working my way through

END OF TAPE

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Mr Anthony Richards

Project: Barking Park

Date: 16^th August 2011

Language: English

Venue: Interviewees Home

Name of interviewer: Claire Days

Length of interview: 99 minutes.

Transcribed by: Angela Hatcher

Archive Ref: 2011_esch_BaPa_01

2011_esch_BaPa_02

2011_esch_BaPa_02

Ok, so this is Claire Days interviewing Mrs Harrington, um, for the Barking Park Oral History Project, on the sixteenth of August, two thousand and eleven. Um, if I could ask you to say your full name and date of birth please?

My full name is er, Frances Harrington. Mrs. Um, date of birth, thirty first of the twelfth, nineteen thirty seven (1937).

Lovely. And can I ask where you were born?

Yes, I was born in Ilford, Maternity Hospital, Newbury Park, which has now been demolished.

Ok. And can I ask about your parents, where, where were your parents from?

My mum was born in East Ham, my dad was born in Dor-, er, Somerset.

Oh, lovely.

And they met when, my dad came up to London to get a job, and my Nan had lodgers in the house, she used to er, have lodgers for a few shillings a week. So, that was how they met.

Ah, so he lodged with your mum’s mum?

Yes.

That’s really interesting.

Hmm hmm.

And what did your parents do for work?

My dad worked on the railway, all his life, as far as I can remember. And my mum was a short hand typist for Wiggins, Teape and Company, the paper manufacturers.

Ah. And where were they based?

First of all in Aldgate East, Lehman Street I think she called it. Er, Aldgate East, and then later on they had a lovely building um, just in front of St. Paul’s Cathedral. It really was beautiful, they had Italian marble in there, and it’s now been demolished, and it was only built in the nineteen fifties (1950’s).

Oh that’s a shame, isn’t it?

I know.

Like you say, especially if it was quite grand, you know, with marble...

Hmmm, I did go there a couple of times.

Oh you did?

She took me up there, yeah.

Lovely.

Such a shame, I’ve got all the papers here about it. I’ve kept those because I thought she would want me to keep them.

Yeah. Well, it’s a nice memory as well isn’t it?

Yes, yes.

So, so when you were born, in nineteen thirty seven (1937), um, obviously um, do you have sort of very early memories before you started school, of the area or...?

Um...

Any anecdotes?

Well the earliest things I can think of was being evacuated during the war.

Oh ok. Could you tell me a little bit about that experience?

Um, yes, we went to, well first of all we went to Somerset to my dad’s parents. Er, father and step mother. But I can’t remember anything about that, ‘cause I wasn’t er, that was quite early years. I also have some letters that they wrote to each other, I found those when I cleared out. Er, and then, my mother didn’t like it there, I don’t think she got on with the other side of the family very well. And it was, was unusual circumstances really, um, to be there. So she tells me that she piled up a pram with as many things as she could get on, like whatever there was, clothes, the whole jolly lot, she walked four miles to Brooton Station, where Brooton is near, well, I don’t know, Brooton is near, Shepton Mallet shall we say.

Ok.

Er, and got on a train, came to, went to Swindon, I think I’ve got the story right. Went to Swindon, found a lady who would take in lodgers, who also took in soldiers for lodgers as well, I do remember the soldiers. Um, and we stayed with Mrs Russell, and Mr Russell and John. In Lansdown Road. Yes, that’s right. Um, and I, my, I’ve got a very clear memory about going, mum, wandering round places in Swindon, shops mainly, to find out who could put her up, herself and me, the daughter. And this lady was on a floor scrubbing, um she was scrubbing the shop floor, and she said, I take in lodgers, I’ll take you in, you have to come up and see me this evening. And she gave mum the address, and that’s how it all came about. And then, I, mum said I have to find a school for Francis, so where’s the nearest school. That wasn’t too bad, er, that wasn’t too far away. That was called King Edward’s School, in Swindon.

Ok. King Edward’s...and what, what do you remember about that school?

I don’t really remember, I tell you one thing I, I do remember which was really naughty, we had some new books delivered to the classroom, brand new books they were, I mean just imagine, during the war. And this er, teacher said, now, these are the new books, and this is where I want you to put them on the shelf. And she took the books and she opened the cupboard and she put them on the shelf. And I thought, oh, I could do with one of those! So when nobody was looking [laughs], I shoved them under my xxxx...

[laughs].

Under my skirt! [laughs]. Two of them I think, and I took them home and I hung about in the hall, now somebody must have answered the door to me, ‘cause I was only little, so presumably, the person that answered the door just answered the door and went back in to a room. And I hung about in the hall, and course then, I took these things from under my skirt, these books, and mum shouted out, come on, come in! What are you doing out there? I said, oh, I, I’ve just been given some new books by the teacher and I’m looking at them! And I thought, [laughs], when I was older I thought what a naughty girl that was! And mum never queried it, I mean, any parent during the war would query a child being given new books, wouldn’t they? But um, no she didn’t query it at all and as far as I know, I did keep them at home. And the teacher didn’t seem to miss them either! But maybe, I’ve got that part of it wrong, I don’t know, I can’t remember.

Can you remember what the books were about?

No I don’t. I don’t, they were obviously children’s books, but I don’t remember what characters or anything were in them. No. And I don’t remember much about the children either, you know, whether I was, I don’t think I was unhappy there, but it was as I say, unusual circumstances. Oh and another thing I did, when we were at Mrs Russell’s, I had this gollywog, which I’ve still got, it’s up in the loft at the moment, and um, I was cross with this gollywog, and I got out of my cot, as far as I can remember I was, I was still in a cot. Don’t remember it being a bed. And I threw this gollywog all over the place because I was so cross with him! And I chucked him [laughs] towards the mantelpiece and I broke one of Mrs Russell’s vases! [laughs]. And she wasn’t very happy about that! [laughs].

I can imagine!

Told my mother to keep me in my cot in future!

[laughs]. So you were a little terror when you were a child?

Oh, oh, what a naughty girl I was! Yeah. I can’t remember anything else, they had a very unusual house. Um, in as much as they had a cellar downstairs, but the cellar was at pavement level downstairs, where as the front door was at pavement level on the front of the house, you went down stairs and the cellar was on pavement level, probably because the house went down on a slope. And you could get out the back as well, you know, you could walk out the back. That I found very unusual, I’ve never been in a, any house like that since.

No, it does sound quite unusual...

Yes. And she used to keep things, used to have a sink down there, that’s all I can remember.

So did they have like, a garden or space where you could play outside?

Um, yes, the garden, yes, there was a garden, the cellar, and then a little bit of garden, and then a brick wall, and then an alley way at the back, a very wide alley way. What I call a Coronation Street alley way I think they’re fairly wide aren’t they, some of them.

Yeah, well whenever you see them filming down there there’s always two or three chatting in a line or something isn’t there?

Yeah

So it’s got to be reasonable I imagine

Yeah, other than that I cannot remember anything at all. We were supposed to, I don’t remember also we did live over at Newbury Park for a couple of years before we went to, before we were evacuated.

So how long would you have been at King Edward’s School? Can you remember?

We came back here, I think mum said about nineteen forty (1940) I don’t know, ninety thirty seven, about nineteen forty we would of come back here

And that’s when you would of gone to Newbury Park?

Um, presumably. Yes we did go back to Newbury Park, yeah yeah.

Okay, so um obviously you were at King Edward’s School for only a short period of time then, can you remember what schools you went to once you came back?

No, I’m just wondering if I’ve got this right because I would have only been three when I came back here wouldn’t we? So therefore I wouldn’t of, no it must have been later than that, it must of been about nineteen forty two (1942) when we came back here, sorry about that

That’s okay

Because I wouldn’t of gone to school from nought to three would I? Hardly.

[laughter]

Unless you were a very advanced child

Yes, very advanced.

Which might be why you wanted the books

[laughter]

Um, yes 1942 then when we came back here. Um. We went to Newbury Park then my nan and Granddad lived in Aldersey Gardens, over there and they were bombed out. A great big bomb fell [laughter] I was going to show you the photos, I’ve got them upstairs.

Can you remember that then?

No I don’t remember that but I’ve only gone by photographs of what’s happened, my mum tells me that she walked over, by this time my nan and Granddad went to Swindon to be evacuated so they’d all gone and Frank the son and Dorothy the daughter they all cleared off to Swindon and then my mum said, and I can never understand why, she came over to Barking every day with me in the pram um yeah a Tansad Pram, I remember the Tansad Pram, it was green. Um you could let it down at the foot of it. And she wheeled the pram over every day and cleared up after the bomb and just generally tried to salvage what she could out of the remains and there was a lot of looting as well by people because the front door was blown in so people would come and take whatever they wanted and things disappeared um the whole was pretty big where the bomb fell and I’ve got pictures of my dad and Mr Brian next door clearing up or just sorting things out in the back garden, what was the back garden. Um went to Ripple School which is over the bridges here and my mother didn’t go with me at all, children were able to go to school on their own in those days because by that time I was five and parents weren’t allowed in the school anyway.

Were they not?

No um so I had a very best friend called Dianne who lived in Milliford Gardens and I used to go with her to school.

How far of a walk was that?

Oh I suppose it was, oh I don’t know, um be a mile I think. No more than a mile I should think it seemed like a long way as a little girl but I don’t suppose it’s all that long. We went over the yard and bridges um I can’t remember anything. I was quite happy at Ripple School I was a bit scared of everybody but I’ll always remember that first day you know leaving your mum and she’s not allowed in the school, because now they allow their mums in the school to sort the school out don’t they and all this business and to see what the children are going to learn and what they’re going to play with she said she just sort of gave me a push at the gate and I was afraid that she wasn’t going to come back for me so I sat out in the playground and there were two girls in Aldersey Gardens Margret and Anne who lived down the other end and I thought ‘if my mum doesn’t come for me I’ll follow them home’ but that’s logical in a child isn’t it? If you think your mum’s not going to turn up for you, I mean she did obviously but going to school on your first day is a very new experience isn’t it so no I didn’t have to follow them home my mum came for me and then she did that for a little while and after that I was on my own. Had a teacher called Miss Light, who came from Southend every day she told us and she always wore a green cross over apron, you don’t see them now do you?

No

And she always bought black sambo with her which was the dog and the dog used to sleep under her table, never forget that.

She brought her dog to school?

She brought her dog to school and it slept under the table, now whether she exercised it during the dinner hour I don’t know but it always appeared to me as if the dog was always there, do you know what I mean? The dog under the table. But I don’t know whether she exercised it or not, I can’t remember she never appeared to go out of school and they have to have their lunch don’t they? Um what else was there? oh we had, what I now realise, I didn’t at the time were shoe boxes to keep our personal possessions in you know like our bits of paper and pencils and various rubbers things like that. And I was off for three days, I had a very good attendance at school, all the way through, I was away for three days and I was given back something which wasn’t mine. Not my shoe box and I was really worried about this, I don’t think parents realise how much children worry about things. My mum wouldn’t come to the school she said ‘well ask Miss Light yourself for your own shoe box she’s not going to bite your head off is she’ and this is all she kept saying and I though mum please come and ask her for my shoe box, I still remember that. Anyway eventually she did and I got my own shoebox back and I was quite happy, but it took a lot to get her to come down the school and ask for me, you know she was always one of these you fight your own battles or you got yourself into that situation you get yourself out you know?

Very independent type

Oh I still am as well, I can see myself falling off a ladder before long, anyway after that I went on to Ripple School then on to um park, oh yeah I went into the juniors of Ripple School and then on to Park Modern which is, which was it’s Barking Abbey now

Okay

I liked school, I didn’t mind going to school particularly the secondary school

What was particularly good about the secondary school? Was it just that you were older?

Yeah I was older I felt more important, I liked the lessons, I liked the girls there. it was all girls, it was no boys so it was just nice to be all girls in together. Yeah I quite liked secondary and I felt and I was always in the top class and I think that makes you feel good doesn’t it? [laughter]

It certainly helps

Well it makes you feel a bit, well you know

What were your favourite lessons?

Oh I loved English and spelling, didn’t like arithmetic. History and geography didn’t like those

Really?

No!

Couldn’t bare them, well we had boring teachers but English and spelling I loved.

Can you remember any particular teachers who their characters have remained with you?

Miss McGeal

Miss McGeal?

Miss McGeal, she was nice. Yeah. She went on to be the headmistress of um of a school in Collier Row

Okay and I am assuming she taught English if she was your favourite teacher?

Um do you know what I can’t remember who taught me English, no I can’t remember. I know who taught history because I didn’t like her at all, Mrs Hatton she died quite young

Why didn’t you like her in particular?

Well because, mainly I didn’t like her because her lessons were boring. Miss Frasier taught geography. Mrs Hedges always used to ride a big hired bike going to school, she only lived around the corner so you’d see her riding a long like this, she never said good morning to anybody, she had her hair tied back and done up in a bun, very prim and proper and nobody liked her very much but there you go you had your likes and dislikes don’t you? Mrs Pratt was a nice teacher, I liked her. Other than that I can’t think of anything about Park Modern that. One thing that does strike me is the fact that nowadays you get these great big packs out don’t you telling you the children blah blah blah they’re going to such and such a school and they have to wear such a uniform. Nothing like that happened, I came home and I said to mum “I’m starting Park Modern School in September, we’re got to be there by about such and such a date at such and such a time and we have to wear either pink or blue check dresses” and she went out and bought material and it could be any style and she bought material and she bought patterns and she made me a couple of pink and a couple of blue check dresses. But there was none of this packs that they get nowadays to tell you what goes on in school or what they’ve got to wear. So un, so uncomplicated [laughter] very complicated. Hum.

That’s about it for the school.

And when did you leave school then? How old were you?

Well here goes another story [laughs] my dad as far as I can remember when I was fifteen he had a nervous breakdown

Okay

So down in Somerset, his home town, there was this fella who was saying that people who he had stayed friendly with only he stayed friendly with this fellows father because they were coal miners together. He stayed friendly with Uncle Role because they were coal mining together so we used to pay frequent visits to Somerset for holidays and to see these people, Role and his son Frank and his wife Mavis, now both deceased, and Frank come to Somerset, come to Somerset you can get a job Clarkes were thriving then this was in the 1950s Um and so we packed up, the whole house was packed up and we all push off to Somerset. My dad couldn’t get a job he tried here there and everywhere. I remember when he came home he bought a bungalow in Somerset for £3500, when he came home that night my mum said “well did you” he brought my auction you see “did you get the bungalow we looked at” “yes” “how much did you pay for it?” “£3500” “you bloody fool” she said [laughter] because he tried to sell the house in Aldersley for £2500, he went right down to £2000 and he couldn’t sell it so he said he came to see the solicitor one day after no job for him, mum had a very menial job which is nothing like the wages or the variety that she had had up in London at all so he came in one day and he said “I’ve been to see the solicitor, they can’t sell the house” or the agent can’t sell the house “pack up” he said, we’re going home. So we came back and lived in the same house, we were only there three months, just imagine that packing up a whole house and then coming back again so I left school and then I went back to school and my dad went back to Paddington to work on the railway, he was like a messenger boy I suppose you would call it and my mum went back to Wiggins to work and everybody went back to normal again and it was an expensive jaunt you know just because of dad having to have this nervous breakdown

Maybe he needed the three month holiday from London?

Yeah, maybe he did, maybe he did and I do like Somerset and I go down there every year so I had no complaints about it in the mean time while we was at Somerset I worked in a haberdashery shop, haberdashery and clothes shop I suppose you’d call it and then, oh before that, this comes before, I went to work for a doctor for three weeks to look after his children but I wasn’t really suitable so he asked me to leave [laughing] I didn’t have the experience did i? Three weeks and I was fifteen years of age, I didn’t have the experience and he took me into the living room one day and he said “Francis, I’ve got something to tell you. I don’t think you’re really suitable, I think you’d better leave” so I went to live in the bungalow with mum and dad then I took on the job in the shop and I’ve still got the XXXX here as well from when I left there and um then I went back to school as I say and Miss Griffiths, she was the head mistress, she was lovely, she was strict but she was lovely, had mauve coloured hair and she used to stand on the piano with her arm on the piano each assembly and somebody would send two excellent pianists in school and they would play us out, as she would call it , play us out of assembly and she’d stand there throwing her head back like this and making all of the movements that one is supposed to make when one is listening to music, she was lovely I did like her.

She sounds like quite a character and obviously her mannerisms have stuck with you

Yes, she was nice. Some of the teachers I liked, some not so nice. Miss Dove, she was the, she died in 1990, she was really my favourite teacher I suppose apart from Miss McGeal yes because it was her who set me on the path to my future.

Okay, it what way?

Oh she taught hygiene and nursing and that sort of thing so

So when you finished school for the second time obviously, because of when you went back

[laughing] not many children do

Not many finish twice

No

So how old would you have been then?

I was about seventeen and a half I think

Okay

Oh I worked in Woolworths on a Saturday, I had a Saturday job

Was that quite a common age to leave school for the school?

Yes, I think so. I think most girls would of left at about sixteen, sixteen and a half something like that usually you leave in a summer term don’t you so as they came up to their summer term, I think it was sixteen then, as they came up to their summer term then they would of left on their sixteenth birthday either had a having had it or coming up to it because some children have birthdays in the august holidays don’t they?

Yes, it’s funny I was speaking to Tony over the road earlier and his birthday is in August so he was one of those

August 1936 he was born

Yes

I’ve never found out how old Rose is but no

No, I’ve got no idea

Was she there this morning?

Yes

Oh she was

Yes she did join in a little bit because obviously she had memories of the park

She comes up here occasionally, not I can’t find out her, I don’t like to ask her because I do ask a lot of questions but that’s just not one of them.

Never ask a lady her age!

[laughter]

Apparently, that’s one of the rules isn’t it.

So what did you do directly after you left school?

Directly after I left school what did I do? Um. I’ve got a job at, oh yeah, I wanted to take up nursery nursing, you know the little children, my mum had an interview with Miss Griffiths and I said to her whatever you do don’t persuade Miss Griffith to take, there was a job going at Islington, now just imagine getting from here to Islington every day and I said don’t let Miss Griffith persuade you to take that job over in Islington because it’s not on, I’m not going to do it so of course when she came home she said “oh I’ve accepted that job at Islington for you” [laughter] I thought “you so and so” and I threw a paddy that evening, I really did throw a paddy I was screaming and shouting and calling her a few names so I thought I’d do this on my own. I can’t remember if I saw the job advertised or how I came about it but there was a job going on in Banardos homes in Barkingside but they weren’t Banardos children the house was let out to Ilford, what used to be, Ilford County Council so I applied for the job and Miss Sandringham was the matron and I got the job at the first interview, I can’t even remember anyone else being at that interview I know I went to a house in Valentines Park to be interviewed anyway. I got the job and I started in September 19 ninety where are we it was ninety just gone wasn’t it. Ha! I’ve lost it! It was fifty-four what would it have been? The end of it was 54 not 19 what would it have been. Yes 1954. Yes that’s right.

So what were you doing there?

Just looking after children and you know learning, I went two days, two days to college to the south west tech at Walthamstow, um. That was for two years just learning about various things about children

And that’s something you enjoyed?

Oh yes, yes. The nursery closed after in 1956 yes the early part of 1956 then I was transferred to Goodmayes nursery, that’s no longer there that’s been demolished. That’s now a library.

[pause]

And how long did you stay at the Goodmayes nursery for?

Two years

Two years

That finished in 1954 about the summer holidays time some time around about then

So from there and doing that I got my NNEB - Nursery Nurses Examination Board, you know.

And that was a standard qualification for all of the nursery nurses?

Yes

Okay

I’ve got the certificate somewhere. Um and then from there into nursing at the old King George Hospital, now demolished, everywhere I’ve worked has been demolished.

I won’t take it as a reflection on you, it’s okay

[laughing] no please don’t!

That was at Newbury Park that hospital

And was that still with children or was that...

No that was general, medical, surgical, there were children there being nursed um that was three years then I stayed on I can’t remember the SRN because they don’t call it that these days it’s RGN isn’t it? SRN State Registered Nurse.

And was that on the job training or was that with college?

No no there was no, because our lectures were all in house with just a tutor who I understand is still alive, she’s in her nineties so I’m told. We didn’t have to go out, we did go out on a couple of educational visits but not very often which I think is better now if you can get out on an educational visit it’s much better isn’t it. Um because you know if you want to follow something else further than nursing you know what else you can follow don’t you? But you wouldn’t really know then would you? So that was that then I stayed on for a few months for staff nurse, that was 56-60 that’s right. 60 when I got my exam and then I stayed on for I suppose about six months, yeah for six months to...

Okay

To do staff nursing I thought I better get a bit of experience.

Then I did something I really liked and that was midwifery

Oh lovely

Yes I really really enjoyed that.

It seems like you definitely wanted

Oh yes I definitely wanted to follow the, mind you when I think about the way I brought my own children up I wonder if I was a good mother. [laughs] I often tell them I wasn’t.

I think all good mothers say that though don’t they, they wonder so you know

I was a bit naughty at times. So I did part 1, it went in parts in those days I think you do it all together now, part of mine was done at Barking hospital and I was attacked to a midwife who lived in Ashburton Avenue in Ilford so at least I had to ride my bike out to Ilford to do any deliveries because she was the midwife based there and she was very good, she used to leave me on my own and I had, I think, one baby born before I got there because I’d gone home to have something to eat that was my priority, had to go back to the hospital. But you know some of these woman are really good, if they’ve got somebody looking after them they’ll make a meal or make a sandwich or offer you to eat but I don’t think that was the type of house that did that sort of thing so, but strangely enough everything worked out because the doctor was there but I don’t think he knew as much as I did. [laughter] because he seemed a bit dithering by the time I got there, then the midwife turned up erm Miss xxxx she didn’t seem cross or anything, like she said these things happen you know, it’s best to be there but they do, it does happen. That experience um other than that everything else was alright, I mean there weren’t all straight forward births were they? One of the last I went to I said “I’ll knock on the wall or bang my leg on the floor if I want anyone to come” because people didn’t go in in those days and see the babies being born so I said “I’ll knock for you if I want you with my foot” and then the woman had to

[DOORBELL RINGS]

Yes, what was I saying

We were talking about rubbing bellies

Yes, you have to rub them after a contraction to stop the bleeding and the baby needed sucking out as well so I’ve got the baby in this hand and you put the tube in your mouth you see and you suck out the baby and spit it out on the bed or where ever and I’m rubbing up a contraction with this hand I’m banging on the door like this for someone to come and help and when I went outside they said “everything alright? What was the baby a boy or a girl?” I thought “you could of come and helped”

XXXXX you didn’t have enough hands

I didn’t ahve enough hands no because you’ve got to make the baby breath and cry haven’t you otherwise the mum wonders what’s going on doesn’t she? But yeah that was one of the last things I had. Other than that it’s very straight forward and it is a nice feeling, the first one I went to, the very first was I do know the area because I had been because I was living in the area, the house that we had when I was when I practised on the district went with the job, so we had a house in broad street and the first ones I went to, these people, I didn’t know them because they were somebody else’s patients Nurse Bambrook’s patients and I said “what’s going on” and they said they wanted they’d got two girls they want a boy so I went upstairs, everything was quite straight forward, quite normal and I rushed downstairs and I said “you’ve got a boy, you’ve got a boy” and I’m thinking afterwards she could of been bleeding to death upstairs couldn’t she! [laughs] But I’m so excited ‘cause they’ve got this boy that they wanted. Yes, and that, part two I, I didn’t mention, that of course comes straight after part one. That was done in Old Church Hospital. And it was quite nice there, not bad.

And whereabouts is that one?

Oh, have I got it round teh right way? No, I haven’t, I’m really sorry I haven’t got it round teh right way, I should have had my thing in front of me shouldn’t I?!

[laughs]

Part, I did part one first, that was at Old Church Hospital, that was after I left the, after I left the er, King George. And then that was six months, that’s a six month course, and you have to get a certificate for that. And then part two, was done at Barking Hospital.

Right.

Six months, certificate for that, and that is when you’re attached to um, that’s when you’re attached to the ladies outside, the midwives outside. Yeah, Nurse Lovett her name was. And then after that, I got married, in nineteen sixty two (1962), and then we went to live in Broad Street, in Dagenham. And that was when I started in the district, I’ve cut, I rather put the cart before the horse there, haven’t I?

[laughs]. So the district was a hospital?

The hospital, wait a minute...

Sorry.

Wait a minute...

I’m being awkward aren’t I?

No it’s me really, I’m being a bit silly, I ought to know about these things didn’t I? Xxxx [sound of ruffling papers]. Right here we go. Xxxx. Right, let’s go, let’s go backwards. You’ve got all this, but I’ll go backwards.

Ok.

Nineteen forty two to fifty four (1942 - 1954), school. September nineteen fifty four to fifty six (1954-1956), student nursery nurse with Ilford County Council. September nineteen fifty six to sixty (1956-1960), student nurse, staff nurse, King George Hospital. September nineteen sixty to March sixty one (1960 - 1961), student midwife, part one, Old Church Hopsital, yeah I did get it wrong didn’t I. March nineteen sixty one to September nineteen sixty one (1961), student midwife part two, Upney Hospital, Barking. September nineteen sixty one to April nineteen sixty two (1961 - 1962), staff midwife, Barking Hospital. Yeah, I did stay on for a little while. Then in May sixty two, marriage, changed name to Harrington, it was Read, R E A D. May nineteen sixty two, to December nineteen sixty six (1962 - 1966), district midwife, London Borough of Barking and Dagenham. Nineteen sixty five (1965) was when we changed over to being Barking and Dagenham, before that we were separate councils. Um, December sixty six to January sixty seven (1966-1967), gave up work to raise a family, full time mum...January seventy six to April seventy eight (1976 - 1978), staff nurse, two nights a week, Rush Green Hopsital, Romford. That was on the gynie ward, I liked, I enjoyed that.

Right, ok.

I like, I like anything like that. May nineteen seventy eight, to July nineteen eighty eight (1978 - 1988), no...that’s wrong, no, that’s wrong.

[laughs].

Er, May, er, no, nineteen eighty eight (1988)? Seventy eight to eighty (1978-1980), to May nineteen seventy eight (1978), golly I’ve never noticed that before, to July nineteen eighty (1980), staff nurse, two nights a week at Barking Hospital.

Right.

And then August nineteen eighty (1980), until, eighty until...er, two thousand and two (2002), that’s what, er, eighty to two thousand, that’s twenty two years, yeah, school nurse. Barking, Havering and Brentwood Hospital Trust, now Barking and Dagenham Primary Care Trust. And then retirement in, I did work for two days afterwards, after I retired.

Ok, was that voluntary?

Um, xxxx, for well, which still with Barking and Havering, I asked if I could work because it was a sort of um, easing off time, wasn’t it. You know.

Yeah.

Easing down time.

Wow, so you had quite a full career then!

I have I suppose, yes. But it’s nice to look at the good times, and, you know, just think, oh I remember so and so, and so and so. And sometimes people would, come up to me and say, oh hello Nurse! You delivered my baby blah, blah, blah. And I’m thinking, well I only know your tail end dear, I don’t know your face! [laughs].

[laughs].

Yes, and I met a fella around here the other day, working on the roads, and er, I had some er, ear bits in, and I was laughing. And he was laughing back at me, and I said oh, I said, this is funny! I didn’t recognise him, he said, here comes my Nurse-y, that gave me all my injections in school! [laughs]. I did remember the name, but obviously I didn’t remember the face but, I said, if ever you want to come in and have a cup of tea...I’ve seen him working on the roads before. And he’s got quite a nice face as well, you know, so I said yeah, come in and have a cup of tea!

Quite a handsome fella is he?

Yes he is handsome actually! Although he’s grown a beard.

Nice to invite round and have a look at!

Yes! Yes.

Isn’t that lovely though, that people still sort of recognise you...

Yeah I suppose it is, yes, but...

Because you’re probably this pivotal figure in their lives that they remember.

[laughs] There was a nurse round here called um, what was her name? Nurse Goodacre I think...no, xxxx one minute, there’s a Thoroughgood and a Goodacre, no it was Nurse Goodacre, she used to ride a bike in the nineteen forties (1940’s) and fifties (1950’s). And she used to go round and say, Morning Mother, Morning Mother, how are you today Mother? How’s your baby today Mother? And I can still see her now, riding around on her bicycle. She xxxx came from Upminster.

Was she someone you knew quite well, or was it only just a...?

Oh yes, yes, because I did a little bit of um, of er, baby experience with her. Like going to clinic for, when I was at school, going in to clinic, they let me out of school, and , an see the babies weighed. That’s all it amounted to really, it wasn’t very much.

That’s really interesting. So did you always know, even when you were at school, that you wanted to work with children then?

Um, well my mum looked after children for a pound a week during the war. That’s all she charged ‘cause that was all that was necessary to charge. And I suppose it started there.

Ok. And how many children of your own do you have, if you don’t mind me asking?

Three.

Three?

Yeah. Deborah, John and Angela.

Ok. Well we probably should talk about Barking Park a little bit now! [laughs].

[laughs].

Got a bit distracted there, didn’t I?! I was going to say, what, what would, what was your earliest memory of Barking park?

Well...er, where are we, where did I do this? Ah...oh dear Jackie, please find enclosed, that’s not it is it!

[laughs].

I do quite a lot of things in rough first. Oh Frances, why didn’t you get this ready for earlier? Ah, my earliest memories are, my mother must have taken me over the park before this happened, because I do vaguely remember going in at the main gate, but the earliest memory was going over the park with my best friend Diana, in Netherfield, who lived in Netherfield Gardens, and I must have been about seven or eight. And we saw the bunkers which housed the guns, search light and barrage balloons. Which was quite a surprise to me, because I didn’t know that, you know, that this was, that these things were over there. Um, I’d seen, you know, I’d seen barrage balloons. Now there were also some Nissen huts over there, on the same field. They were backing on to the side of Barking Abbey School.

So were there soldiers stationed there at that time?

Well, this, this is, I’ve said in the next bit, we couldn’t, I could never determine who occupied these dwellings, some people say it was the soldiers, who manned the artillery, and others say it was private people, who were homeless. But I never found out the answer to that one.

Ok.

I did ask.

It’s quite interesting, because I have heard that some people who were bombed out during the war moved in to the Nissen huts.

Ah!

So it could have been a mixture of both?

Yes.

Could have been a mixture of soldiers because they had no shelter, so they just...

I didn’t think about that.

Yeah, it’s only something that I’ve heard I don’t know how true that is, but like you say if you’d heard...

It’s possible, it’s quite possible isn’t it?

Yeah. Yeah, it’s definitely...[pause]...so what can you remember, what, visually in your head, could you describe the sort of, scene to me of seeing obviously the barrage balloons and...

Well there weren’t any, they were empty bunkers when we went over there, there was nothing in them. We used to play down them, they weren’t very clean.

Ok.

They had steps obviously, ‘cause you had to go down in to them. But there were no guns over there as far as I can remember, they’d all been removed. Nothing at all, just the concrete buildings.

So were there any remnants of where the guns may have stood or...?

Um, I can’t, I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I think by, what would it have been, a couple of years after the war, I think they’d all been removed.

Ok.

Um, after that, I’ve sort of been round the park really, if that’s alright?

Yeah, that’s fine!

From there we went to the side of the swimming pool, which I’m told opened in about nineteen thirty (1930). So I’m told, and was finally closed in nineteen ninety (1990). And after that it became disgraceful. Um, after the building was closed, it attracted, no, wait a minute...after the war, sorry, after the war, the building attracted many, many swimmers, from all areas on a daily basis. Particularly if it was a hot day. [pause].

Did you ever go in the Lido yourself? You did?

That comes next!

Oh sorry!

[laughs]. Particularly, oh, it was here that I spent many happy hours in the Lido myself, also my children. And particularly refreshing after a twelve hour stint of night duty. Um, that’s about it I can say about me personally, but here’s a bit more about the swimming pool. The building, like the surround building, also housed a very shallow pool, where mum’s could sit on the side and dangle their feet and splash their babies. So, it was really a tiny baby pool.

Is that something you did yourself with your young ones?

No I don’t remember doing that! At all. I, I, because we had that outside pool didn’t we, the um, the other one, where the children er, but I never really, no I don’t remember going over the pool at all with the children. Not the little one. Um, now...where do we go from here? Oh yeah, the public were admitted through a turnstile, and if you were um, less honest, you would get over the turnstile on top of it and climb over. Which I never did. ‘Cause I’m not a boy! Boys used to do that! For a nominal amount of money, you were given a key for a locker, which was um, to put on your wrist, you had to hold it on your wrist.

So did they have, kind of like a rubber band or something attached to it?

Yes, yes, it was on a, on a rubber band sort of thing, or a piece of material. Then you put your clothes in the locker. Now I can’t remember what the changing rooms were, whether they were communal, whether all the girls in together, and all the boys on the other side, or whether they were separate cubicles, I only remember the lockers, I don’t remember any cubicles of any description. But anyway, um, and the pool, the Lido had fountains either end, and wow betide anybody who dared to climb them! The lifesavers, men usually, sitting on either side of the pool would blow a whistle very loudly.

Ok, sorry, were there more than one lifeguards then, ‘cause I’ve heard some people say that they thought there was only one there?

Well, I don’t remember there being more than one, one either side perhaps. Yeah. Just imagine trying to keep your eye on all this, all these children.

I should imagine it got quite busy there?

It did, it got very busy, it was sort of standing room only on a hot day. And then you’d put your towel on the side and somebody would say, oi, somebody’s pinched my towel, and no, no, that was my towel! No I had that colour! [laughs]. So he’d blow the loud whistle for the offenders to get down at once. And if it occurred a second time, they were told to leave the pool. Whether they did or not, is left to the imagination!

It’s interesting, because obviously if there were so many people in there, they probably wouldn’t have been able to...

No! No, they can’t watch everybody can they, unless they’ve got eyes in their backside! [laughs]. Er, there was also a chute, a water chute, but I never attempted to ride down there, so I was too scared. [pause]. And then over the back of the Lido, towards the wall, there was a flat paved area, where one could spread out their towels and lie down to sunbathe. And it was a sad day when it was closed, and allowed for the next twenty years to become quite disgracefully overgrown with bushes and trees, self seeded of course. [pause]. And then outside the swimming pool, I think I’ve finished with the inside now, as far as anything I can remember. Outside the swimming pool was a free paddling pool for children, and many happy hours were spent here when my children were small. I suppose it was about...the size of this room, out to the pavement, and as big as, as wide as two houses perhaps, it was fairly large, yeah. It was quite good, I enjoyed that going down the pool, my friend Pauline down the road, and myself, I had a big Royal pram with a big bottom, you know, and Pauline had a swan and we marched over there with our cabs together you know, and think, think we were the Queen I think sometimes! [laughs]. Oh we did enjoy that! And then I, I used to dump all the, dump all the children in the pram, ‘cause you could take out the bottom, you could take out the middle, and they could put their legs in you see, so you could get any amount of children in to [laughs]. And then looking the other way, yes, the pool there’s not really a lot to say about that, there was lots of trees round there, I don’t think they’re there now, in fact I know they’re not. There was lots of, so the mum’s could shade. And there were seats as well, where you could sit down, it was really good! And then, down towards the lake, um, if you, looked, this really goes back a bit, if you looked, when we, Diana and I went down beside the swimming pool, and we looked right, there was barbed wire across the lake, that was obviously something to do with the war. It was from one side of the lake to the other. This really should have gone when I said I went over the park with Diana and we saw the um, the bunkers for the guns. Um, there was...

So that would have been about nineteen forty six (1946) you said?

Yes, yes, it would have been. There was barbed wire right across and there was a hut at the end of the lake.

Ok. It would be interesting to find out why that barbed wire was there wouldn’t it?

Yeah it would, yeah. I feel sure that that was some, but the funny thing was, the guns were no where near there. Not at all. The guns were this side of the park, and that was right up the South Park Drive end. And at the very end of the lake there was a hut, I don’t know what it housed, I haven’t got a clue.

And that’s the South Park Drive...?

And that’s the South Park entrance, yes. Now I did something here about the boathouse, what have I done about the boathouse? Because then er, after that I put, that was looking right, and then looking left, you would have seen, walked your way towards the boat house, coming along towards the Loxford end. Now, I don’t know too much about the boat house, um, at all, because I never went on the boats as far as I could remember.

Ok.

But there used to be, oh yeah, also going back to the little um...going back to the little paddling pool, there was no EU directions about water born diseases in those days, so you couldn’t say, oh I can’t let my child go in there! Because it just wasn’t, you know, the kids used to do all sorts of horrible things in there [laughs], I think! Nothing, no nothing to do, yeah this is the, this is the next bit. Diana and I, this should go back a bit shouldn’t it? Diana and I walked past the swimming pool and came to the lake, looking to the right was a section of water which had barbed wire across it from one side to the other. At the end of the lake was a building which resembled a hut, don’t know what it housed or what it was used for. In later years the end of the lake, this end of the lake was used for the paddle boats for children. Um, at the other end, yeah, having been cut off, it was, it was, obviously the barbed wire was taken away. At the other end of the lake, walking, I think you call it westward don’t you? That would be westward if you go towards Loxford, because that goes towards London, that end of the lake doesn’t it? So I’ve called it walking westward, was the boathouse where one could hire a rowing boat for a small fee. [pause] And then later on, motor boats were introduced, I never went on the boats as far as I can remember, perhaps I was too scared. And also, if you go on a, if you go on um, rowing boat, you want somebody to row it for you [laughs], I didn’t intend to do it meself! Then after the war, we could ride on Phoenix I, which was a big paddle steamer, I enjoyed that. And later replaced by Phoenix II. [pause].

Could you describe a little bit more about that experience of going on the Phoenix if that’s ok, as a child?

Um, it’s quite exciting, there were seats on there, and I suppose you thought you were somewhere else. Do you know what I mean? Being on the lake, because it used to go up one end, round the islands, and back down the other end, but it was very, very simple, I mean there was no down below, or anything like that, it was just one, all one level. And with seats, really, it was very simple. Not really much to record about that.

Were you quite fascinated by the paddle though?

Yeah, I suppose I was, you could look, look over the side, there was no, there was a rail at the side obviously, but you could look over the side and see the paddles going round, yes.

And what was the water like at that time, ‘cause I’ve heard that in later years after the motor boats, it got quite dirty?

Well, it wasn’t particularly, I don’t think the lake was ever particularly clean.

Ah ok.

Not filthy dirty, as it has been in recent years, but it was, er, you couldn’t see to the bottom. [pause].

That’s interesting.

That’s all there is really, about the Phoenix. There have always been swans on the lake, and more recently hoards of Canadian Wild Geese! I didn’t know whether I should describe them as hoards because obviously a collection of geese have got a name haven’t they, but I didn’t know what to put, I thought that was a bit disrespectful to them! [laughs]. Oh they are, they can be quite vicious you know! And I seen them, if you’ve got bread in your hand, and you, out of a plastic bag, you give it to them out of a plastic bag, and then you’ve finished, you put the plastic bag in to your pocket, they’ll go down your pocket! And, and see what they can get. I’ve seen them do that. Er, hoards of Canadian Geese, feeding these birds and pigeons, as well as little birds as well. It was a big attraction and still is for the children, particularly the younger ones.

Is feeding the geese and the swans something you would do quite regular with your own children?

Oh with the children, yeah, we used to go over there and feed the, feed the ducks and the swans. I said to Deborah when Ellie was born, do you take Ellie over the park at Romford? ‘Cause she’s always lived at Romford. So she said, no. So I said, how about taking her over the park to feed the ducks and the swans and whatever wildlife there is over there? And she said, she’s got plastic ducks, she can swim in her bath!

[laughs] Not quite the same is it?

No! [laughs]. No it isn’t! Erm, do you want to break off for a bit?

Oh, of course, yeah of course!

Do you want cake, do you want a cup of tea?

Oh I wouldn’t mind, if you’re having one, I’ll have one too.

Yeah.

Lovely. I’ll just pause the tape for a minute.

Yeah, take a cake...

[tape paused and then resumed].

Ok. Um...

I only sort of got so far. I mean you might want to say something at the end.

Well, I’ll let you carry on, and then if it’s ok, I’ll ask a couple of questions if that’s ok?

Yes, go on!

Could you just repeat the story about um, knitting, knitting the swimsuit though, if that’s ok?

Oh yes, when um, I was about ten I suppose I was, mum used to look after children, and Carol was a rather fat, podgy little girl, and I knitted her a swim suit. I don’t remember getting measurements from anywhere, or putting a tape measure around to her to find out what her measurements were. So I just went on knitting and knitting and knitting, and then um, she went, er, I took her over the park to go in the children’s play area. And the swimsuit just disappeared down her legs! [laughs]. Because it was wool obviously, it was too heavy for her! [laughs].

Just took on all the water straight away?

All the water got to it yes! Yeah.

Like a sponge almost, or something?

Yes, she didn’t seem all that um, upset about it though [laughs]. I mean little children, all sorts of things happen in paddling pools don’t they?

Yeah.

So yeah, she didn’t seem all that upset.

Lovely, ok!

Anyway!

Sorry, we were up to feeding ducks!

Yeah, we got to the feeding ducks. And we’ve gone along the lake, haven’t we?

Yeah.

And then if you go a bit further along towards the boathouse, as I said I don’t know very much about the boathouse at all. Um, you come to the little train, which ran as far as the lake, down as far as the lake, from the main gates. But this hasn’t always been the case, this engine with attached passenger seats used to run along the small strip of land at the back of the lake. You know, there’s the lake, and there’s the strip of land and then there’s a little stream isn’t there?

Yeah.

Well that’s where it used to run. Once upon a time.

Can you actually remember that?

Yes I can, and Tony said he can’t, but then Tony wasn’t here at that time was he, he can only remember it from this end. But yes, I can remember it being, and I used to go on it as well.

So that was about forty six, forty seven (1946/1947) again?

Yes, probably about then. Maybe a bit later, try, try that a bit later.

Let’s say forty eight to forty nine (1948/1949)?

Yes, probably. Yes, ‘cause I would have been getting on then. Er, and it ran from er, to Loxford, and then it ran to about...now Pauline said the end, she said it ran up to the South Park end, but I don’t think it did. I don’t think it ran that far, I’ve put the end to about two thirds the length of the water, along beside the water and then head back again. [pause].

Can you remember roughly when it would have stopped running along the back then, or is it just something that went away...?

I can’t, I really can’t. It’s been up this end a long time. A very long time. But no, ‘cause as a child, you’re not really interested in dates are you?

No, you’re just enjoying the ride!

Yes, exactly! No I can’t remember that. But I do remember thinking, even as a child, what an improvement it was. Because more likely, people, more people are likely to see it this end aren’t they, than they are right over the back of the lake. You might not have even noticed it over there. Um, I don’t remember a turntable at either end, so I assume it boasted two engines, one at the back and one at the front. That’s all I can think. Then, because, it’s such a narrow strip of land, there wouldn’t have been room for a turntable would there? It’s very narrow over there, isn’t it?

Of course.

Have you been over there?

I’ve not been over the back, no, I’ve, obviously, been over to the park quite a few times recently, but um...

That’s where Warren said he wanted to act as a stud to the ladies! [laughs]. He was a so and so he really was! [laughs].

Could you tell me that story again for the tape, if that’s ok?

We had a fella living down here, I felt sorry for him actually because he was a boy, and there were two girls in the family. And the parents always seemed interested in the girls more than, than Warren. And um, he was telling me, that I said, well, Warren, you’re, you’ve got no, you’re aiming about, you’ve got no, or you’re wandering about, you’ve got no aim in life have you? What are you doing? He had, had had a job over the cemetery. Um, but he gave that up, er digger I think. And then he said, no, my aim in life, he said, is to be a stud for all the ladies! So I said, really? He said, yes, and do you know what, I nearly got caught on that strip of land over the park, between the lake and the stream. He said, I heard somebody coming and I had to dress quickly! [laughs] Oh dear, oh dear!

It’s a bit of a saucy one, isn’t it!

Oh he was! [laughs]. He was terrible! And I hadn’t seen him, he used to live just further down the road. I haven’t seen him for a long time, and I just wonder if he, he was married, and he had children. I said to him when I saw him with these two little girls, what came first then, the children or the marriage? So he said, oh marriage! I said, oh, you surprise me! But I haven’t seen him, and I’m wondering if he’s moved. And I don’t know anybody down that end to ask. I know he didn’t get on with his mother in law, and she died, and he was very pleased about it! [laughs].

Crikey! [laughs].

Oh!

Was that strip of land popular with er, courting couples?

Oh I imagine there was a lot went on over there, yes, because it’s fairly isolated. [phone rings], Oh excuse me!

That’s ok!

[Phone continues to ring] Yes it’s very isolated. Xxxxx [Leaves room to answer the phone, talks on phone before returning, laughing].

Getting a lot of mileage out of that one aren’t we? [laughs].

Xxxx [laughing loudly]. She was calling from, and she had a very sharp voice, I didn’t hear where she came from, and I don’t want to answer that sort of thing anyway! I say, I’m quite happy as I am, thank you! Er, so that’s the train, don’t, can’t really say any more about that, only that, as I say, it came up to, this end later on in life, as it were. The carnival, the main gates of the park have seen many celebrities enter their portals over the years. For me as a child, and teenager, the most exciting event was the yearly entrance of the fair and carnival floats. Now I didn’t know what word to put here, xxxx might not be, you xxxx, what is it when you have cars, vans, trucks, lorries, what do you call the whole lot?

Er...

‘Cause I couldn’t think of a word!

If I was thinking of a word off the top of my head I’d, to, as er, a group of...?

Yes the whole lot used to come through the town, and I’ve left it blank, I couldn’t think of it.

I would say vehicles, but I mean...

That’s a very general word isn’t it?

Yeah.

There must be a word.

The whole caboodle? [laughs].

Yeah! Anyway...the whole lot um, for want of a better word, would consist of cars, vans, trucks, lorries and organisations all advertising their own particular wears or trade. And in the middle of this the er, this whatever, pardon me, the carnival queen would sit on her throne flanked on either side by her attendants. I can not remember when this event was disbanded. The train, used to, the train of, if that’s what you call it, of all these vehicles used to start in Mayesbrook Park, travel along Lodge Avenue, Ripple Road, Longbridge Road and on to Barking park. And one year, one of the high floats crashed in to one of the pillars at the top here, you know there’s white pillars isn’t there?

Yeah.

And I was ever so upset about that, I mean I must have been a teenager, and I was really upset, I thought, how are they going to mend it? You know, but within um, and it came down to the pavement. This was soon repaired and within the next month it was restored to it’s former glory. So they didn’t have much trouble putting it back. But I was, I was, oh, quite upset because I, I suppose I thought it can’t be repaired, do you know what I mean? But yeah, it’s alright now.

Do you remember what year that was...?

No, don’t remember, sorry.

No worries.

Can’t remember that year. Um, the activities in the children’s play area on the edge of the fields, I’ve put edge but it isn’t really, is it? The children’s activity area has always been situated in the place behind, no, that’s wrong...on the edge of the field, the children’s activity area has always been situated in this place. Um, behind the swings and roundabouts there used to be a cafe, where one could buy ice cream, tea and sandwiches. [pause] But I don’t remember any cooked food being offered, I’m sure you couldn’t buy, just tea and er, things that didn’t have to be cooked. Now this is where the skateboard now stands. And then above the cafe, I remembered that fella’s name, I couldn’t remember it when I saw you before, above the cafe were living quarters for Derrick, wife and two children. And I saw them at the funeral as well, of, of er, Les. He’d be somebody to tell you something...Derrick. If you, are you in touch with Christine?

Um, Mill, Millard? Er, Les’ daughter?

Les’ daughter.

Yes. Yes.

She’ll, she’ll know where Derrick lives.

Ah ok.

Because um, he, he came to the funeral so she must know where he lives, or one of Les, little Les as we called him, he would.

I’ll be seeing her on the twenty fifth (25^th) actually.

Yeah ask her, see.

Did you know her father quite well then?

What Les?

Yeah.

Oh yes, we, we used to go, David and I used to go in the Lodge occasionally.

Ok.

And have a cup of tea with Les and Rene. Yeah.

And he wasn’t the superintendant was he, he was the under...?

No, Mr Curry was the Superintendant, but somebody remembers, before Mr Curry was even the superintendant, but I don’t go that far back.

So Les was just kind of like, a nursery worker?

Yes, yes.

Ok. And Derrick didn’t actually work in the cafe?

No, no, he didn’t work in the cafe, he worked in the park.

Right ok.

Doing something. Er, right, before xxxx wife and two children, we’re nearly coming to the end now. Er, Derrick worked in the park, I’ve got that. I think this flat suffered a fire and the whole building, and eventually the whole building was demolished. Beside the cafe er, were, and still are the tennis courts, where one had to pay for a game of tennis. And further over, in front of the swimming pool was a golf course, once again, a paying activity. Um, and then there was, the big, I don’t know what you call it, chess, chess players, for the men.

Ok.

I expect you’ve heard about.

Giant chess set?

Giant Chess board for the elderly men, now Pauline remembers a hut in front of that, but I don’t remember that. I just remember these big chess things, like weights that you would have on a, on an old fashioned scale, but much bigger you know. Huge like the size of a big saucepan and they had these poles and they used to life them up and put them over, and life them up. I do remember watching that occasionally. But not knowing how to play chess, I didn’t know who was winning and who was losing. But as I say, Pauline remembers a hut, I don’t remember that. Um, what else, I can’t really think about anything else...Bandstand!

Bandstand?

Yes I used to go over there every Sunday, well, every Sunday when a band was playing that is, with my Nan. Then within the bandstand fence you used to pay and you could sit down. If you didn’t do that, you had to stand outside the fence, fencing to the bandstand.

Was it quite an expensive....?

I can’t remember how much it was, no, my Nan probably paid anyway. We used to like that, I used to enjoy that. Can’t remember when it was demolished, I expect somebody might have been able to tell you that.

I believe someone told me it was around the nineteen seventies (1970’s) when they um...

Possibly, yeah, or even before perhaps.

Then they built a car park or some...

See and also, once I got married, I went away to live for five years, um, and we didn’t come back here until nineteen, er, sixty six (1966), when we came back here. So really I wouldn’t have been all that interested in what was going on in the park. I used to come over here, even after nineteen sixty six (1966), and I only had one day off in a fortnight, that’s all you were allowed xxxx, that was heavy going now I look back. And I used to come back here and see my dad, so I used to spend time with him, not go over the park.

Of course.

Even though I used to bring Deborah with me. So I really wasn’t, after, once getting married I wasn’t all that interested until the three of them were all growing up. And, I could take all three of them out together, because sometimes it’s not possible to take one baby and one, another one that’s almost a baby, and another one walking. So I had to wait.

It’s hard to chase after a toddler if you’re holding two babies isn’t it? [laughs].

Yeah, exactly. Yes. Yeah it was a bit difficult. But we, we had some nice times, and I used to find as many parks as I could around here. We went to Cotton’s Park one day, and I thought oh, I can’t er, this is in Romford isn’t it, and I went to, I said um, I’m not going to sit and do nothing, they had a paddling pool, all, all the parks had paddling pools, there was one over Greatfields Park, down the bottom. I remember that one. And we went to um, Cotton’s Park, and they had a paddling pool, and I thought, I’m not going to sit and do nothing, and I needed a dress, that needed hemming up, so I thought oh, I’ll sit and do this hemming up you see. And then Angela came up to me, she’d been in the paddling pool and she seemed perfectly alright, and she said, oh I do feel sick. So I said, do you? And I went oh! Like that, she was sick in to my dress [laughs], I don’t know why I lifted my dress for her. But she was sick in to my dress, so I went in to the toilets and somehow or another I managed to get my dress off, and put the one on that I was, xxxx [laughs]. There was a lady sitting next to me, she said, did you come prepared for that?! [laughs].

[laughs].

I said, no, I didn’t, I happened to be mending it! [laughs].

Just lucky!

Just lucky yeah! And another occasion, I think that was the same occasion, Angela xxxx said that she put her, she went in in her knickers ‘cause she didn’t bring, she didn’t, she wasn’t going to be the same as everybody else and go in the paddling pool. She was only about four. And so I said, you’ll have to go in in your knickers. So of course when she came out her knickers were wet weren’t they, and I said, you’ll have to go home without any knickers on, but you’ve got a longish dress on, just keep your dress down, that’s all you’ve got to do. You don’t sort of, go flouting it. And she bloomin’ well sat next to this elderly gentleman, and she said, look man, no knickies!

[laughs].

I could have killed her! [laughs]. I could have killed her! And he didn’t know where to put his face!

You can’t trust a four year old! [laughs].

Oh dear, I didn’t know where to put his face, and I didn’t know where to put mine [laughs]. Right, other things in the park, I don’t think I can think of anything else. The allotments have always been over there, as far as I can remember, but I’ve not, wasn’t really interested in those. Oh, and there was a TARDIS over there, we were talking about the TARDIS. I wonder if you could find out from somebody, ‘cause Pauline and I are still having this difference of opinion, I say it was inside the park behind a brick wall up at the Loxford end. She says it was out on the pavement.

Hmm, and that’s, just to clarify for the tape, by TARDIS you mean the blue police phone box?

Yes, and it means, for Time And something...

Relative Dimension In Space!

Relativity, Direction In Space...yes that’s right! Yes, yeah.

Ok, so Pauline it’s outside, and you think it was inside?

I think it’s inside, and I think there was a low brick wall. There’s railings there at the moment, and she said to me, well how would they have gotten over the railings? And I said, well there weren’t railings there, it was just a little low brick wall. And it went with a dip as well, railing, you know the wall went like that, it was curved. And I said, well, they, there was, there was er, a problem with the police, and they just jumped over the wall. That was my thoughts on it. But I could be wrong.

It would be interesting to find out.

Yes. Somebody must know. What about the police station, they must have records.

One would hope so, I can definitely look in to it for you. And I’ll ask at the local studies and archives centre as well, because they might know something about it, they might have like a map of locations of phone boxes from the fifties (1950’s) or something. I have no idea.

Yeah.

But, it would definitely be worth finding out.

It is.

Because it’s quite an interesting sort of, thing that nobody else has mentioned, so, it would be really interesting to find out where abouts that was. Might ask Andy actually, maybe he knows. But yeah, that is interesting. I was...sorry...

Down by the boathouse, I do remember, just a little way away, was um, er, a small hut where a man sold ice, from which a man sold ice cream. I do remember that, how he kept it cold I really don’t know. [pause]. Then the children used to fish in the lake for tiddlers, there was always lots of tiddlers then. And shops nearer the park, would always sell this six penny er, fishing nets for the children. They used to put them outside in a pot, and then you pick up your net, and they were colours, choose your colour and go in and pay for it. [pause].

Um, I think you were telling me at the session that um, a lovely story about you used to bring tiddlers home in a jam jar...

Hmmm.

Could you repeat that for the tape if that’s ok?

Yes, I don’t, but I don’t know where they got the jam jars from, I mean, you wouldn’t buy a jam jar from a shop would you? Maybe they came armed with the jam jars, but they didn’t have the nets to go with them. So along would come this army of jam jars, and buy their nets just outside the park and then um, go and get their tiddlers. And come home with them. What they did with them when they got home I don’t know. I can’t ever remember doing that, but we had a fish pond over there in, in Aldersley.

Oh really?

But I can, oh, and we had loads of frogs as well! They used to scare the living daylights out of me! But I never remember coming home with any tiddlers at all. That wasn’t really my mother’s activity, I don’t think [laughs]. Um, also, in carnival time, and I don’t think I’ve got any pictures here, I used to collect for the mayor’s fund, outside the park gates. Um, have a tin, dress up, in a nurse’s uniform. Can’t remember where I got it from. Unless it was a red cross uniform? I can’t remember. And collect for the Mayor’s fund, and then at the end of the session they would tell you how much money each separate person had collected. Um, I can’t ever remember how much I ever collected, but I enjoyed that. ‘Cause, the, life was so slow then that people would get talking to you, you know, what are you collecting for, and are you a real nurse and all this sort of thing, you know. And I enjoyed that. And there was a man called George who came from East Ham, and he used to sell peanuts to anybody going in. And I used to have quite a few conversations with him.

So you would just have um...?

A tray of peanuts, yes, he always had a tray around his neck.

Did he sell them outside because he wasn’t allowed to sell them inside do you think?

Now that I don’t know. I’m not sure, whether he had a li-, I don’t suppose he even had a license in those days. I really don’t. Because um, that sort of thing wasn’t thought about, were they? I mean anything to do with food and selling, you have to have a license nowadays don’t you?

Of course.

But I liked George. He told me he lived at East Ham and he had a disabled son. But he never said what was wrong with him, probably they didn’t know. Didn’t give things names in those days did they.

Not necessarily, no.

And then of course, once I’d left home, you know, all that went by the board. I didn’t do it anymore. Now my mum had a photo of me, dressed up, I don’t know what happened to that. Because I remember there was a fella, that, how stupid is this, this fella and I don’t know who he was either, took a photo of me. It was somebody official, like to do with the council. Took a photo of me collecting outside the park, and this fella was looking over my shoulder. So it looks as though I’ve got two heads!

[laughs].

And my mum wasn’t very pleased about that, so she cut out just a picture of me and put that in a frame. And that was on the sideboard for years but I don’t remember seeing that when we turned out [coughs]. Oh! [coughs].

Are you ok?

[coughs] Hmmm [coughs].

Do you want me to get you some water?

No, I’ll get it, don’t worry! [coughs] Get it...[coughs], swallowed a bit of dust or something... [leaves room]...xxxx xxxx.

[laughs].

[returns to room after brief absence].

Are you ok?

Mmmm. Oh it’s lovely and cold! I love cold milk.

Are you over heating again are you?

I’m always hot and sticky, particularly in this weather. I have a shower before I go out in the morning and jump in the shower again, by that time the water was cold but it didn’t matter.

[laughs] Almost prefer it cold!

Hmmm.

To cool yourself off a little bit. I was going, sorry to jump around a little bit, but I was going to ask you, I know you said Derrick worked in the park, and he lived above the cafe, but what did he do, can you remember?

I’ve, I don’t know, I can’t think. Christine best, is best to tell you about that.

Ok.

I’m sure he did work in the park. I remember that, my mum and dad were quite strict as to who came to our marriage. Um, and, they said they wouldn’t have anybody under six years, and they had two little children and my husband wasn’t very happy about it. I mean, like my dad paid for the wedding, I know it sounds a bit, erm, not very nice, but my dad paid for the wedding, so we had to stick by his rules, you know. The two little bridesmaids, one of which was Christine as you know, and the other one was a little girl called Linda Greenhowe, don’t know what happened to them, um, they were both six years of age and able to you know, be good as it were.

Yeah.

But their argument was, mum’s argument was that everybody waits at the table until everybody’s finished. Well if she’s going to sit and feed two babies, and they were quite, quite close together in age, then, then mum and dad weren’t prepared for that, so unfortunately. But I saw them er, at Les’ wedding, er, Les’ funeral, and um, they never mentioned it. They didn’t say anything, I mean it was sixty two (1962) to present, to two oh six (2006), so maybe they’d forgotten all about it. I don’t know, hopefully they had!

[laughs] Maybe they even remember being there?

No, no.

Who knows!

I didn’t recognise her because obviously, I, she’d got a lot older, but um, she said, do you remember me? And I said, oh, I’m sorry I don’t. She said, do you remember Derrick that lived in the, Derrick and I forget her name...lived in the park? And then of course I did remember. Yeah. I did remember who they were. Hmmm.

I remember at the sessions we were talking about um, the park keepers and the park wardens, as well and what they were like...

Don’t remember anything about Park keepers.

Oh ok.

Only that they used to ride about on a bike making sure you behaved yourself. But I really don’t remember anything about them at all.

Yeah.

No. And also with regard to being environmentally friendly, I mean we weren’t in those days were we? We, we don’t, we weren’t supposed to go round looking in er, the birds, or the bees or the flowers and the trees like they do now.

In terms of wildlife in the park, um, is there anything in particular that you particularly enjoy in the wildlife, like the flora or fauna, any particular flowers, or...squirrels? [laughs].

I do like the flowers that they put out every year, yeah.

Yeah.

And particularly the Lodge, Les’ garden is really beautiful. Um, and also there used to be these signs, no walking on the grass, didn’t there, once upon a time. And the flower beds were always nice, very, very nice. Yes, I did like that part of it. But with regards to anything else, I wasn’t all that interested, that isn’t to say I didn’t like it, but we weren’t encouraged to, to like these things, you know. And that’s what I think is good about today, very good isn’t it, that children can learn all about the wildlife.

I was going to ask you about the renovations and developments they’re doing in the park at the moment. What kind of positive aspects do you see out of, you know, along with the you know, the education suite that they’re building, and the fact that their rangers do sort of tours and things for the kids?

Yeah, I think that’s a good idea. I think that the um, the education centre will be very, very good if it, if the children can treat it properly. You know, and not abuse it, yes I think it’s an excellent idea. But then I think, there’s always people like me, and Tony, that will say, oh, I wish we could go back to the old days, you know.

[laughs]

But alright, have the old days as we had it, and the education centre, that, that would be a bit of both, wouldn’t it?

Yeah. It would be nice.

It would.

I think Tony was saying earlier that what he would really like is um, for them to sort of re-instate a bandstand on one of the islands or something.

Hmmm, mmmm.

And I thought that was a really, really nice idea actually.

So do I! Definately! And once again, I don’t know who the bands were that played, like, I think you or somebody asked, well who were the bands that came to play? But I honestly don’t know, as a child, you’d go over there, and I loved brass bands so we just used to listen to the brass band.

And just enjoy...

My Nan and I. And that must have been, before nineteen fifty three (1953) because she moved to Worthing in nineteen fifty three (1953) so it must have been some time before that.

So you were still very young at that point as well.

Mmm, yeah, well I was about fifteen, yes. Yeah.

So did she enjoy that, was that one of her, sort of....

Mmmm, she like it, yeah, yeah she enjoyed it. My dear old Nan, she was nice.

I was going to ask you, in terms of playing games in the park when you were a child, obviously with your little friend Diana or whatever, would you sort of make up games or would you just...?

Just wander round the park really, from what I can remember! [laughs]. Used to take skipping ropes over there and skip.

Ok.

But other than that, I don’t remember playing, oh, and probably hide and seek or something in the bushes, in the middle of the grass where we weren’t supposed to tread!

[laughs].

But um, yes, I do remember playing hide and seek. Um, other than that, I can’t really...I suppose we just used to wander round the park looking and perhaps annoying people, I don’t know! [laughs].

[laughs].

No I can’t, can’t remember any, any games at all. I think the attraction for me was the swimming pool, over there. Definately. And the little paddling pool.

When you met your husband later, did you ever sort of go to activities together in the park or...?

No, not really. No. No, all he wanted to do was stay in his house and do, well, where were we first? In Broad Street. He wanted to just do, what I call bodge jobs! [laughs].

Right ok...

Not finish jobs that he was starting to do. And John came, I never thought I’d heard, hear John say this, he said, he looked round, and he doesn’t come here very often, and he said, this place looks really nice now, he said, I never thought I would see this day, and I wonder what dad would say. And it’s true. Compared to what it did look like, it was really, I mean they used to look at television and say, oh there’s a house being demolished there, oh I didn’t know the TV had been round our house, did you?! [laughs].

[laughs].

Because it was so bad! With all these unfinished jobs and I wasn’t interested in doing things. I’m much, much more interested now. Because all the jobs have been finished.

Yeah. It’s much easier to sort of visualise once the jobs been done!

Of course it is, of course it is! It’s much easier to keep clean and tidy.

Of course. Was he a bit of a DIY enthusiast without the skills?

Oh yes, he was a DIY enthusiast alright! Yes definitely!

And what, what did your husband do for work, sorry?

Oh he worked, he worked over the park, but he was on the, they didn’t have enough rooms at the town hall for him to work, to do paperwork. Um, what did he used to do? The men’s wages, he used to sort out the men’s wages. And so they gave him a room over the park.

In the Lodge, or...?

No, no, in the, where the nurseries were.

Ah ok.

He had a room in where the nurseries, I used to go over there and see him occasionally.

What were the actual nurseries like then?

Um, well they just used to really provide the plants that were needed all the way round borough for any special event. Er, they were quite big, I don’t know what area, but they were quite large. And then anything that was needed to go out for the carnival or any other event, and oh, pardon me. And the flowers for the beds of course. And I think the other parks as well, I don’t remember any other nurseries being in any other park. So I think that they must have provided flowers and plants for the other parks as well.

And did they have like er, quite a few full time staff in there then, constantly tending to flowers?

Um, I suppose there was about half a dozen people working in there, yeah. But I never ever, I don’t know who they were.

That’s really interesting. Ok. Um, I think we’ve covered quite a lot then haven’t we?

Yeah, we have!

Um, I was just going to ask if there’s any other sort of enduring memories, or anything that sort of stands out in your mind that you want to make sure I record, whether it’s about the park, or about you and your family, and your life in Barking?

Hmmm, life in Barking!

[laughs].

Actually people say they, oh, fancy coming to Barking. But this end I think is alright. And we never get any trouble down here at all. And the neighbours are alright, they might not speak, but they’re alright, they’re fine. There is one thing I miss and that’s when we came down here, all the people that have either died, or gone to live elsewhere, walking up and down. ‘Cause my front door was always open, it was never closed, and I’d have children standing beside me, can we play in your paddling pool? ‘Cause we had one of these big square things out the back. Um, but I, I do miss the people that are, were down here, or were down here in the nineteen, what, sixties and seventies (1960’s, 1970’s). Because like, nobody, sort of like, very much talks to each other now. But I’m a bit of a bugger because I, I do my front lawn see, and then I’ve got a strimmer and I strim the front lawn and I look up and I smile. Then if they don’t smile back at me I say, you can smile you know, it doesn’t hurt! Or, you can smile there’s no charge this week! [laughs].

[laughs].

Yeah I do, to everybody! [laughs].

Well good for you!

Yeah! Because some of them, and I said this to a fella the other day, he saw me wheeling my chairs, my din-, er, conservatory chairs, which were down Angela’s cellar, but I took my shopping trolley and I wheeled them all back. And of course he heard me xxxx, wheeling xxxx had his back to me, he was an Asian fella. And er, he just gave me one dirty look and looked the other side. And I said, you can smile you know it doesn’t hurt! And then he looked at his son, I presume it was his son as though he didn’t know what I was talking about. And the son didn’t know what I was talking about and I got so, I went, oh for goodness sake! And I just walked off! [laughs]. I know I’ve got a bit of a temper.

It’s true, you know, there’s no excuse for no manners is there, I mean, I was kind of raised where if someone greets you, you greet them and smile...

Yeah, but it doesn’t hurt does it to smile!

No.

It really doesn’t. And I feel like sometimes like a Cheshire cat because I, hello! Hello! [laughs].

Well better that than with a frown isn’t it, so...

It is! Of course it is.

Of course.

And sometimes people say hello, and I say, oh, I’m ever so sorry, I was day dreaming again, um, I ‘m really sorry I had my head down, or something like that. I didn’t mean to ignore you.

Yeah. Oh that’s lovely. I think it’s a lovely way to end the tape as well. So...

Yes.

End with a little bit of positivity!

Yes, a bit of positive yes. A bit of positive.

Doesn’t hurt to smile, there you go! [laughs].

What is it they say, smile though your heart is aching, smile though your back is breaking, smile though a tear may be ever so near...

Oh I’ve not heard this one.

Haven’t you? I haven’t got the words right!

Oh right!

I know there’s more words to it, um, smile though a tear, may be ever so near...and I can’t think, I can’t remember the end, but um, it goes along those lines.

Yeah.

That’s why I like some of those poems in the, in the scrap book. One of them starts off, what are the things that count in life, another rise in pay to rule, or something about to be the head of government someday. No these are not the things that count in life, and then of course, I haven’t learnt any further.

Yeah, you’re doing quite well!

I tell you what I have learnt, yeah, I’ll tell you what I have learnt but I haven’t done it all, erm, I really do like this. Is there anybody there said the traveller, knocking on the moonlit door. While his horse in, while his horse er, chumped the grasses of the forest ferny floor. A bird flew up out of the turret, above the travellers head. Is there anybody there he said. And then I haven’t really got any further than that. But I would love to know what xxxx Walter DeLaMere was thinking about when he wrote the poem.

Yeah.

But we’ll never know ‘cause he died in nineteen thirty seven (1937)! [laughs]

[laughs] A bit late to ask him now!

Yeah, a bit late to ask him, unless I go and dig him up! [laughs]. Oh, I, yes, I need to learn a bit further down. And when people say they don’t like poetry, I think, how can you not like poetry? But...

Well, it’s so broad though, I mean I still think to say “I don’t like poetry” is kind of, that just sort of indicates to me they haven’t found the right poem yet.

Yes.

Because there’s so many different types and styles of poetry out there.

Yes, I agree.]

There’s bound to be something for everyone. I mean look at song lyrics, song lyrics are basically poems to music aren’t they? And everyone’s got their own taste in music so...

Yes.

Yeah, but that’s my philosophy anyway, I don’t know how much sense it makes, but...[laughs].

Yes, I suppose that goes in with liking English, and spelling and all that sort of thing really doesn’t it?

Of course, of course, yeah, language and the way words fit together.

Yes, that’s right.

Definately.

The only thing I find now, is because I don’t have reports to write, I’m thinking er, do I put two “r’s” in that, or does that need two “l’s” ? And the dictionary is beside me all the time now, where as before I could read, reel it off.

Well when you haven’t seen something written for a while it can be a bit confusing can’t it?

Yes, yes it is!

Always catches me out! I was trying to write “intelligence” the other day and I forgot if it had one “l” or two, and I had to write it out about three times before I got it right! [laughs].

That’s got two “l’s” in it?

Yeah!

Yeah, I thought it had. Yeah, but I get xxxx, and one word that always fobs me off is necessary, is it two “c’s”...

Yeah...

But it isn’t two “c’s”!

No, it’s one collar, two studs!

Ah! That’s a way of remembering!

That’s how I remember it! [laughs].

That’s a way of remembering. That’s got to be good. Hmmm.

I’m full of useless bits of information like that! [laughs].

Yes, yeah there are ways of remembering things. For instance in nursing we had to learn hyper, which is above, and hypo which is under, which is below. So, hyper has got H Y P E R, that’s got five letters in it. Hypo has got H Y P O, that’s got four letters in it. So that’s underneath. Or you can remember the po under the bed, I mean it’s just as simple isn’t it. It’s both ways xxxx, that was easy for me. But it’s not always so easy. My favourite is saying to somebody, oh you reckon you’re a god speller, spell xxxx then! So what does that mean? That’s the blood pressure machine, spell it! And of course, you can’t but it...

I wouldn’t know where to begin!

Once you know, it is easy to spell, you know, once you get the hang of it, it’s not difficult.

Yeah. Ok, well I’ll stop the tape now anyway so er...

Have you got to get back to Walthamstow?

Um, no my office is actually in Ilford, so I might pop back there. Actually what time is it?

I’ve just thought, have you left a car outside?

No, no, I get the um, I got the overground, because obviously being in Walthamstow, it’s quite easy to get the Overground straight to Barking.

Oh, I see.

So it’s...

What do you go, platform one?

Um...

Is that the one that goes to Gospel Oak?

Yes, yes. That one.

Yeah, my dad used to catch that. So, you’ll go back to Ilford now, and then you’ll go back to...

I don’t know, it’s getting quite late now, so I might just go straight back to Walthamstow.

Quarter past four is that?

Yeah.

Quarter past four.

Did you have any photo’s? Did you say, that you wanted me to take some photographs of?

I did, but do you want to wait until you, you come again?

Oh yeah, sure, no worries!

To see those, because there is quite a few. And also I’ll try and, do you know I was looking for that tape of mum talking to the....

[Tape Ends]

Interview Details

Project name: Barking Park Oral History Project

Interviewee: Francis Harrington

Interviewer: Claire Days

Transcribed by: Claire Days and Angela Hatcher

Date: 16^th August 2011

Length of interview: 100 minutes

Archive Ref: 2011_esch_BaPa_02

2011_esch_BaPa_03

2011_esch_BaPa_03

Ok, so this is Claire Days recording for the Barking Park Oral History Project, on the twenty second of August, two thousand and eleven. Um, can I ask you to say your full name and date of birth for the tape please?

Full name, Jean Elizabeth Mary Bruce, that is a mouth full [laughing]

[Laughing]

And the data of birth please

Ooh the date of birth, 11/12/24.

Brilliant, and can I asked where you were born please

Ooh, I was born in Barking

And where abut in Barking?

In Barking, um in Upney Hospital, Upney lane

Fabulous, um can I ask what your parent did for work?

Ooh my Dad was err, jack of all trades [laughing] He wasn’t a particularly healthy man he suffered very badly as he got older, with xxx [duodenalis] so he did a variety of jobs

Ok, and did your Mother work?

Ooh my Mother worked yes, she worked, very- very hard, I remember as a child, she wasn’t in particularly good in health, and as Doctors recommended that she get outside in the Air so, she heard of some other women, and she talked to them, and they went down to Upminster, there was a big farm down there, xxx[Pauls] farms, and she got a job working in the fields, she worked very-very hard, the whole group of them, there was a group and they will worked right through the Winter, and right through the Summer, err doing all sorts of jobs in the fields, err xxx[rhubarb] pulling um, salad stuffs and all that sort of stuffs. And I loved it you know, because in the Summer, when we had the holidays, I had my dream, she will take me out, and she bought me a pair of boys khaki shorts, a pair of boys xxx, socks and shirt, and I was a boy [laughing]I was very much a boy, and she we will get up at five o’clock in the morning, and take the train down to Upminster, and there will be a lorry waiting, and um they lift me up and over, and we would go off down to the farm, where we xxx they given our orders for the day, of which err area, it was quite a large farm, down at Upminster um, we were given our orders of where we were going to, if it was a distance then we would be taken by lorry, and um we used to get to the err field and one women would err take me and we had to pick up the xxx[tuige] we would light a fire, and get the tea on going, and um so that the women could come and had a cup of tea or coffee whatever they wanted, milk man would come along with his milk trolley you know, and err they would come and had a cup of tea and then they would go back to the field, and carry on working it was very-very hard work, but it was good for my Mum,

Did it improved her health

Yes it did, she became quite a sturdy women, she wasn’t a tall women, err but she was very sturdy and very strong ooh yes, she worked very-very hard, but then as time went on, err we moved from Harrow Road up to St. Awdrys Road, it was a much bigger house, err I had an older brother he was eight years older than me, and my Mother got a job in the shop, in St. Awdrys Road, it was bread and grocery there was a baking xxx[up there] so she got a job there, and um she loved it because it was only just across the road [laughing]so she liked that

Ok, you mention than that you had an older brother who was eight years older, was he your only sibling?

Yes my Mother had lost two babies at least, one was stillborn, and the other one died soon after

Ooh xxx

So it very sad

So sad

Yeah, he was completely the opposite to me where as I was medium height, and dark brown hair [laughing] not now

[Laughing]

And err he was, about six feet one, and he had blond hair, but we were the same Father I can assure you [laughing]

[Laughing] it funny how genes split sometimes isn’t it so err

Yeah it is, so yeah

Ok and can I ask what schools you went to in the area what was your first School

School, well first of all I went to Gascoigne Infants, but when we moved up to xxx [St.Awdrys] I went transfer to Westbury School, which was still there actually, it’s a very good School, and then err I went on to, East bury School. Now that is the School I loved, and it a very-very good School, in fact um xxx[am] one of the Governor of it now, I was asked to be a Governor a year ago, so I thought why not, and I always remember the Moto, xxx I tried to lived to it[laughing] not always succeeding, but I have tried [laughing]

[Laughing] xxx

Yeah and I loved it, that is where I became aware that I loved sports, being a bit of a Tom boy, and I really err loved xxx [sport] it was good,

Would say that was your favourite sort of lesson or Part of School

Ooh yes, I used to look out of the window, because we look over the field, sport field and I used to always been told off [laughing]

[Laughing] Day dreaming

Do your School Work, and um ooh yes I loved it there, and um then the War started, and um they came and put the Shelter in our back garden ,this um iron Shelters ,and ooh I hated the War, it was awful, because we lived in St.Awdrys Road, and the opposite side of the Road those houses back down to the Tilbury line err, train route there were two route ,one for the electric line, and one for the err ordinary engine line, and err we could hear this Gun coming up and down, the Tilbury line, you could hear it and you think ooh God here it goes again, and I always remember once my Mother, err the siren, when my Dad was a warden, air raid warden and we both of us got down the shelter, and um I was setting there praying, and my Mother poor Mother she was terrified, she said “look at you, you are not freighting of anything are you” and I looked at her, and said what you talking about, am saying it over and over again please God don’t let me die, I was I remember it, and um you know I was terrified xxx, and we had a big one of the big bombs, further down St.Awdrys and it err, bombed about half a dozen houses, wipe them out, and people were killed, and you see because we where near the docks and the river and xxx[Fords], they were making ammunition I think or whatever, and err that we were target, but we did had xxx some bad bombing in Barking, err yeah we finally got through the War, and err I had left School then. And err I started in the Post office, I wanted to be a Telephonist in the post office, but I had to go to School first, um sit my Civil Service Exams which I passed, and then I chose to go to xxx exchanged ,up off the East ends, in Convent garden, and um ooh that was partly during the war, because I also remember when the siren went, we were told by the supervisor to us two, because we were the youngest ,we were what fifteen the two youngest we had to go down the xxx and mind the emergency thing, and we just got down there after rushing like mad from the third floor up, and we just getting through the hole in the wall, and we heard this bomb go off, and we thought ooh my God we been hit, but we hadn’t but when I finished my shift in the afternoon, I went out and everybody been talking about it, it was the Air Ministry on the corner of xxx[Hornbeam] that was hit, and err I was absolutely terrified, there were all bits of cloth den and stuffs in the tress on the pavement ,where people had been killed.

Ooh my god

It was dreadful; it really was. But any way, I caught the train home and I told my Mother and you know she said yes you know, but err I should never forget that, walk coming out and seeing that, but that was the way it was then, you know we would be going along on the underground to up to London, and you would see West Ham, it only a small station, or it was then, and a bomb had dropped on those houses xxx and you could see that the err, the err shelters had come up the force of the blast ,had force them up out of the ground, and the sheet and things were hanging out either ends now whether they were anybody in them I don’t know, but often we would had to get off, and walked from one Station to another, because that Station had been hit, so it was quite hairy at a time you know, but then there were the Celebrations, but we were not allowed to go to them we had to go straight home [laughing]

Why you were not allowed to go celebrations

Well because the Canadians were in London, the Americans by that time had decided to joined in two years too late [laughing] And um they were having parties of you know the War was over and all you know, and we because we were young they said the supervisor said no you, we rather you didn’t go to them um, all the other older girls xxx[would] coming in the next day and tell us what a marvellous time they had [laughing]

[Laughing]

But, we were sent home

Xx so you left School in 1940 did you say sorry um

Yeah something like that, ooh I don’t yeah

Ok so you working

Yeah

In the strand sort of like four or five years wont you

Yeah,

Ooh ok

Ooh yeah, it was quite an experience it was frightening experience you didn’t know whether you gonna get killed or not, but when you are young like that you don’t think about that so much

Um

Not until it comes really close, but err that was it, and then xxx I met um at the youth club, Eastbury School had a youth club running, they started up youth club for the kids you know, because they didn’t had anything to do, and um I was over the gymnasium one day, and um this two boys came in and one of them I knew, and the other one he was new and err, I was introduce to him I felt um he looks nice [laughing]

[Laughing]

And err he was, he was been demobbed because he gone in to the Forces, in to the Air Force, way before his time but he was my future husband

Ooh lovely

Yeah and err, we were going together, for ooh about a year, and we got engaged and then I had a nervous breakdown [laughing] the Doctor said it was a result of the War years, um living in shelters and going through what I did go through, when I went to the and my Doctor said [laughing] it was quite funny really, well not funny he said to me “get married” he said “you got nothing else to do” he said “you got no responsibilities no worries” he said “get married have a baby straight away”

[Laughing]

I looked at him I said that a bit drastic, he said “well you need something that relies on you” so as a result that was our Son [laughing]

[Laughing]

Xxx somewhere [laughing] and um so, we had a Son and two years later we had a our daughter, xx that is the war years which were horrific at a times, they leave a lasting memory on you, and when you xx think about these riots today, you think to yourself my God this kids, don’t know what it is to be alive and living, xxx[they] think it all laugh, but they have been used by somebody on Computers and that is what is all about, it not because they are bored or anything like that, it just they been raise up, I feel sorry for them, that they can’t find something more useful in life, to do really xx[but] that’s it

Yeah it quite sad init it is sad

It is sad yeah when I think back, xx [think] to the young fellas that went to War some of them were only seventeen, and gave their ages as nineteen or something like that, to get in the Forces

So I gonna ask you did your husband do that then because you said that he went in to the Army

He went; yes he went in when he was about seventeen I think

Cranky ok

He shouldn’t had done

Was that quite common then you think for boys to lie about their age

Ooh yeah, yeah a lot of young fellas did, he couldn’t wait to get in the Forces you know

So what year did you got married sorry

Forty six

Forty six

Yeah

And so obviously then you had two children rather quickly

Yes

Um so

My Son was born in forty seven years xxx he will be sixty, sixty two something like that [laughing] yeah

Then your daughter was probably about forty nine is she

Yeah, my daughter

Yes your daughter

No she is sixty

Ooh sorry she was born in 1949 no

Ooh something like that yeah, yeah xx her birthday is coming up in October. And his is September.

Right ok

Yeah, so quite a young age, and um then my [laughing] I always remember my Mother, we had the front room in my Mums house, it was not a bad size house actually, so we had the front room, down stairs, and we had err xxx settee, a court and a court you know, the wooden ones that a bit stronger, and err it was a bit xxx [laughing]

[Laughing]

And um, but my Mum xxx[went] chasing off to the Council, and demanded to see the housing officer [laughing] ooh xx she tell him off you know, she laid the law down, and in consequence we were sent a card, to say err would we liked to go and view, one of the new flats in Long Bridge Road, and err down on err, the Green down on the A13 they were prefabs, and I went down to the office and I said they were xxx[gonna] give me the keys, I said can we have a prefab [laughing]xxx[quite] innocent you know, and err he said “you wait till you seen this flats” he said “go up and had a look at it” and my husband and myself we came up here and had a look at it, and I look around I said wow I said we got nothing to put in it [laughing]

[Laughing]

It huge, it a huge to our self, after living in one room bringing up two children, my daughter was about what three month old, or something like this, and err two, or three month old, and I said it enormous, but we were pretty lucky because one of my husband brothers, he worked at the garage and he brought home this small xxx [truck] and put it outside their house, and my Mum went up and down, saying if you got and furniture you want to get rid off [laughing]

[Laughing]

And people were like that, in those days you know, they was so generous and so good hearted. Looking out for one another, I mean sometimes you could hardly see any body here you know, but xxx[times] I know certain amount of them, but err people were coming out with a xxx[bed] for Colin when the err xxx[iron ones] and we all ready had a court for xxx, and um somebody had a table and four chairs, and somebody else also had something, and somebody else had a couple of carpet xx[and] it was hilarious, we bundle them all in the bark of this lorry[laughing]

[Laughing]

My husband came up, and err it was black xxx man floors and these was a xx[tile] this is a tile floor under here, but the other rooms were all just painted, and err my husband came up err, a couple of days before we moved in, and painted it a nice tile red like this, and then of course as time went on, we acquired the money to [laughing] to buy carpet and people gave us present you know for things, and we gradually over the years acquired different things you know, new things [laughing] which was nice, so that was that and we been very-very we had been very-very happy here, but unfortunately as I said he died of cancer, thirteen years ago August the First

That very sad

But the funny part about it was, I taught him, how to cook a roost dinner, how to do the ironing, how to clean, how to used the washing machine, all those thing. Because I was convince, that I was going first, he was such a strong, studded man and then when that hit us, I couldn’t believed it, and I talk to him a lot, and I say to him[laughing] the other week I had to put a bulb in, I couldn’t get the xxx[blasted] thing in, and am standing at the bottom of the steps, and am saying to him, look I taught you how to do things, why didn’t you teach me how to do things[laughing]

[Laughing]

And when am playing bowls, I talk to him; I bet you are having a good laugh up there, because he was a good bowls player [laughing] but he is still alive in my memory, which is nice

Yeah

Yep

It lovely, you mention early that um, sorry that you got in to teaching how did that come about

Ooh yes well, as I said I went on lot of courses, err coaching courses, ooh countless of them, I went um round here, to the evening classes and that, xx[passed] them there, and then the Borough were going to period of a shortage of teachers, and one of my friend she was a PE teacher, and she was in at this meeting of the Barking err organiser, and the Redbridge organiser, and err my friend xxx they were saying about, they needed desperately need PE teachers, and my friend spoke out and said, “ooh what about Jean Bruce” and um the one from Redbridge said “who” err and err the one from Barking said “ooh had she applied” my friend said yes ,and they phone up down stairs, where the Education Department was, and they had lost my papers, so the one from Redbridge, give me her telephone number and off course xxx[she had to put up] she had to give her my telephone number, she went straight back to her office phone me up, she said “can you come over to Redbridge err Town Hall and had an interview with the head mistress of um xxx[Fairlop] girls School” so I said yes, xxx I was over the moon, I taught my god you know, and I went for this interview, and um she was wonderful head mistress she is very outgoing flamboyant ,she drove a sport car you know, very modern

[Laughing]

And she said “I had enough” she said “we half way through August” she said “it will be err returning to school xxx[time] soon” she said “would you be prepare to start on September what ever it was” third, or fourth whatever, and I said yes [laughing] I was frighten to said no, and err that how I got it, and I was sixteen years at xxx[Fairlop] girls School

Ooh wow

And err

Sorry what year was it you started there then?

[Cough] ooh xxx

Sorry making you think now xx I [laughing]

You are making me think god knows I can’t remember now, well

Do you know roughly how old your children were at the time?

Err the two kids were at junior school then,

Ok

And my neighbour who lived there then xxx[Palm] she said xx “take it, take it” she said “I would take them, they can come home and I will give them some tea and keep them there until you get home”, because I didn’t drive

Ooh

And I had to get over there, back again tow buses, and um I was only class as part time for a start, but then as I start to progress I got more hours, so it wasn’t too bad, and err so that was that ooh god must been xxx[about] what fifty years ago

Wow

Yeah, and um I stayed there then, and then err they asked me. They build Redbridge Technical College, down um, ooh what the name of the road down there

Um

And they asked me to go, if I would like to go there because it would be nearer at home, err they were starting up a PE department there, they got a man, and they wanted a woman, so I said ooh yes please, I had an interview over there and ooh xxx [he] was a funny bloke the um, xxx and err very xxx was the one overrule you know, not the one in the PE department

So was he the full headmaster or was he just head of xxx[school]

Yeah, yeah

All right ok

And err very xxx and err any way, he seem to like me, and err he told me more or less, my hours and err that was, I went there and err it was good I got a raise in money

[Laughing]

And in between then, I was also asked by the Labour Party, to go on the Council stand as a Councillor, and I though ooh my god you know, all this in between, that was in xxx I was on the Council thirty two years, xxx take thirty two [bla, bla, blab la] And I had been off the Council five years, thirty seven years, back [laughing]

So we are talking sort of nineteen seventyish

Yeah about seventy, seventy four

Ok

And err so. Any way I didn’t xxx {think} I would get in, but I did I got in xxx[Abbey ward] which is the town centre, and err I went on the Council, because it was mostly evening meeting then, and I couldn’t attended anything in the day time if I was working, so that’s how I worked both of them[laughing] And I gradually, graduated to the women who was Chairman of libraries, she wanted to stand down because she felt she was getting older, and she said “I had my eye on you” so I said ooh yes, so she said “I think you would be good Chairman of err libraries” and I got elected Chairman of libraries

Ooh

Which was wonderful ,any I thoroughly enjoyed it, I mean I do I loved books, and then xxx [of course] as time went on, err I done twelve years, and I was nominated by the other members to be a Mayor

Wow

[Laughing] and my husband had the opportunity to take early retirement from Fords, that where he worked, and err so. I said yes ok xxx [had] to be elected, and at the same time I had to give back my Chairmanship, and I thought I was gonna go back on to it after the year had finished, you drop down to Deputy Mayor, and then you come out, err at err. When I came out um, I thought I was gonna go back to Chairman of libraries, but the leader then George Broker he had other ideas he said “you gonna be Chairman of high way and planning” and I looked at him I said there is no xxx [women] take those jobs it strictly for the men, he said “you would xxx[make]”he said “ you got a brain on you and you would make a dam good Chairman of high ways and planning” and that what I did up till the day I retired.

Um

So that was that, I thoroughly enjoyed it thou, I really enjoyed did enjoyed it High Way and Planning, planning xxx mostly and then err high way, was taken away from me, and um given to somebody who was Chairman of rubbish [laughing] not rubbish, rubbish

[Laughing]

You know err, Roads and picking up things like that, so to make it a bigger community, so I concentrated on regeneration, and err and planning and I loved that, I still go in now, and have a cup of coffee, with the men in the Planning Department, and err we have a chat, and err [laughing]

Back to what you were saying a moment ago about how you consider it to be a very male role how did you find fitting in to that being a woman was it xxx

Ooh I was very open, open you know meeting you know [laughing] on their level I did xxx well when I went up to my first meeting in London, it rather funny that was, um I went in this err , it was over the back of Westminster, and I went in to this big room, and it was god smoke everywhere , all men not one woman, so am standing there, and this fellas came over to me, so he said “are they lost loved” [laughing]

[Laughing]

So I said, I don’t know, he said what xxx [d’ya] want, a Northerner, so I said err is this High Ways? So he said “aye” I said well, am the Chairman of High Way and Planning in Barking and Dagenham, he said “xxx Barking and Dagenham” he said “they lost us to the election” apparently we did, not me

[Laughing]

Personally, but the London Boroughs, Ken Livingstone lots you know, when they were [cough]they xxx[class] the Northerners were really hanger with the London, like who were, they said they were communist, they won’t Labour Party, they were communist, and they got the ooh dear,

[Laughing]

And so of course I was classed as part of it, I said no, no I said our Borough Is a very moderate Borough, a middle of the road Borough, we are not left wingers, “ooh aye” and he walked away and left me [laughing]

[Laughing]

So I went out, and found the room where we had to go, and had the meeting proper, and they wouldn’t talk to me first of all,

Ooh really

But any way I would keep asking questions, I look through all the agenda read every word, and get questions to asked, and I keep asking questions, and they gradually got to know me, then they started to take to me, and in the following years, when the Community Clark, they doing the IGM he opened up the meeting, he said “right nomination for Chairman” And it was this chap from Newcastle very nice man, headmaster actually, and then he said “right nomination” and am xxx away on my agenda [cough] so he said err “nomination for Vic-Chairman” the bloke from Liverpool shouted out “Jean Bruce” And I looked up and I said xxx what? And they all clapped

Ooh

And I was in [laughing]

[Laughing]

Ooh I had made my mark because I stood up to them

Yeah

And talk to them, on their level you know, xxx did worry me

So where you the only woman on that Community at that time

Yes, yes

Wow

For a long- long time I was yeah, but I thoroughly enjoyed it, I had to go up to Newcastle, we used to travel around going to other Borough and finding out, what they were doing, and um you know the in and out of everything, it was really good. I learn such lot, I really did but

Did you sorry I was just going to say did you appreciate your role as such of a xxx for woman in that

Ooh yeah I did, yeah I used to laugh you know, when the men started, I just said to the women come on we not letting them get away with that, are we [laughing]

[Laughing]

Yeah

It was really good

I think it because I had always been sort of Tom boys xx [laughing]

Did you find generally you got on?

I found it easy

Yeah, you got quite well with xxx men anyways so

Yeah I did, yeah I liked men, and there is some good looking men their [laughing]

[Laughing]

I liked men [laughing]

[Laughing]

But yeah, ooh yes

Ok that really interesting

I could have had you know few [laughing] but no one for me, [laughing]

[Laughing] You are a good girl, that’s good

Yes, yes [laughing]so that was, that was all of that

And you said you moved into this road in 1951 didn’t you on Long Bridge Road ok

Yeah, yeah

Do you know what this area was like during the war years?

It was all farm land

All right ok

Ooh yeah, it was all farm land, there were big farms because, um over where the park is, was a big farm house, and that was still there, when we moved in, I don’t know who lived in it, but it was still there, but then of course it got pull down because, they wanted to build the big College there

Ok so the big farm house was where the College is now

Yeah, well they building houses on it now

Ooh right

It did turn, first of all, it was xxx Further Education College, it xxx[was a] basic School College, and then it was Further Education College, and then they err thought they will be a bit more ambitious and be xxx[um] well yeah University

Ooh ok

But I think Newham wanted it all in their Borough, because it originated there, so they started building, a new University along the river, over there

Would that be part of University of East London?

Yes

We had xxx

That was University of East L London, and they xxx [vacated] this one, and they sold it off, but they couldn’t not sell off the main building, because that historical, so of courser somebody bought the land and they building housing on it, several I think several farms are involved, err I had being in and seeing a couple of them, but they seem thinning rooms to me, um

We had this discussion about new build early didn’t we [laughing]

Yes [laughing]

They do seem to be very small this days don’t they the new built

Ooh xx do yeah, especially the um, the ones that xxx[they are] building down Thames view, Barking Reach

Ooh ok

There still lot of land there to be built on, but I hope they don’t put any high rise on them, that was ment to be housing, and housing only, we sat week after week after week, Georg Broker and myself and the housing Chairman, the officers planning all this down at Barking Reach, and but we couldn’t get the finance, apart from the fact we wanted to get the um, cables turn down and burred but we couldn’t get the Government to fund it

Ooh

So unfortunately they are still there, but people got worried you know about their children the effect on their children if they living too close to this power lines, but if nobody is prepared to fund it you can’t do it

Yes there is not lot you can do if there is no money for it xxx

Nope, they find money for something don’t they?

[Laughing]

Yeah, it marvellous I mean, the things like the park you know, I remember as a kid, my Mum and Dad taking me over there to the fairs, ooh it was great I used to look forward to it, and I was nor great shapes at going on roundabout I was sick [laughing] but I loved it, and then there was the boxing, they invited people men to come up and try their hand you know against one of the boxes

Ooh

And err all sorts of side shows, and things, and popcorn and stuff like that, and um ooh it was [cough] it was so happy you know everybody was laughing and joking and um it was, ooh it was crowded over Barking Park, I used to loved, ooh once they had a big Viking thing, um men dressed up as err Vikings, terrified I hide, heed behind my Dad [laughing]

[Laughing]

Ooh and they got these spears and xxx and things and then they decorated some of the long boat in the lake, and they were going up and down, I really thought they were Vikings [laughing] but they xxx and ooh it was marvellous, you know but during the war the park, they build prefabs over there, right down near the Abbey School end, you know where the school is? They build prefabs because they had troops, and guns in the park, and they had to had this prefabs for the troops to be in, and god when they used to let xxx and err [cough] you could hear them guns bang, bang you know in the night and

Could you even hear them from where you were living?

Ooh yes, xxx St. Awdrys roads that opposite Barking Station

Ooh ok

Where xx[you] go down steps and through err, a walk way

So not too far at all then from you

No, no and um, but err what am gonna say yeah. And any way they moved, when the troops moved out and took the guns, when the War was over, they even put people who they couldn’t house in those prefabs, because there was a family moved up stairs here, out of one of the prefabs they were giving, then they moved off to a house, um but err ooh yeah they were, those guns god, and then the gun opposite, on the opposite side of the road, at the back at the end of there, back gardens god when that let xxx frighten the life out of you

Um

But um, it was lot of things going on in the park you know, all sorts of things. I used to loved going, xx as a kid, when I got to age off ten, eleven, we would go over there, and they won’t be any fair of anything happen to you, you know I doubted very much this days, that people allowed their children to go over there on their own, but we would go over there, and we play on the swing on the roundabout and thing like that and it was great fun

Can you remember your very –very first memory of the park do you know roughly how old would you have been when you first went there

Ooh, what it would be when my Mum and Dad took me to the xxx[fair] I should think, yeah because it would be weekend, because as I said my Mum and Dad, worked

Um

So I wouldn’t get much chance of been taking over there during the week, and when they built the Lido, ooh that was marvellous we thought it was marvellous, when my children were little, I xxx [would] make a picnic, and we go over there, and sit on the back park which was the Lido you know, and had a picnic and you would see all your friends, with their children but the water was enough cold

[Laughing]

It was freezing, and yet it would be a hot Summer day, but it was a lovely swimming pool and I felt it was such a shame when we lost it, see Dagenham had lost theirs, I suppose they figure ooh well, and Barking could lose their [laughing]

[Laughing]

I don’t know if xxx

We can edit that out if you like it funny [laughing] we edit that after

Yeah [laughing]

Can you remember when the Lido actually opened then because I was told it open in 1931 so obviously?

Something likes that, yeah

Yeah

Yeah it would had been

Can you remember it opening was there a kind of xxx?

Well I didn’t go to the opening, but I went over there as soon as I could to see it, um

You know roughly how much it would have cost to get in at that time?

Ooh xxx[blame] not a lot, I shouldn’t think [laughing] about six pence I should think something like that, when you think about today moneys [laughing] yeah xxx[I would think]] round about six pence something like that

And I wonder if you could describe say um you were walking in to the Lido what would your sight be what the scene bee?

Well if you are going in with two toddlers, you holding them like [laughing]

[Laughing]

Come here you know, and um, because they couldn’t swim and I wasn’t , I wasn’t every a great swimmer I could swim, but I wasn’t a great swimmer that was one of the sport that, as I got older right ,I got into swimming, but err ooh no you had to keep a strict eye on the children, otherwise the attendance would tell you off, you know they didn’t like the children running around, they all be shorting at them, stop running stop running, because it was all you know paved and that, and err if they did dropped they go down err quite a xxx, and it was so lovely to see the Mums and the children and the older people sitting in their deck chairs, you take a deck chair with you and put it down, and then the shower were great and err that, ooh no it was quite a xxx[gathering] place yeah lot of people used it, and they came from East Ham, and they didn’t just came from Barking and Dagenham no, they came from East Ham and all sort of places, Ilford, to used it yeah it was good, spend all day over there, yeah and when of course we moved here then, and it was only just a short walk down the road, yeah it was lovely

Most been very convenient for your children

Ooh yes , it was yeah, they loved it, yeah we had some good times over there, some good things but err then once again money, the important thing you know, it always these ooh well how much it gonna cost, ok you got to xxxx [ allowed] for the cost and you got to allowed for the maintenance that should be put by every year, but err ooh saying about not going over to the park, I remember one day it was three of my friends and my self, and we went round to the end of the Lake, the other side and there was sort of a river, this river out here run under the thing, and we went down the other side we thought we xxx been adventurous and go down the other side and had a look see what was round there, and I most xxx[have] been about ten, maybe going on eleven I don’t know, but err there was four of us, and we were walking along the edged having a look, and there was two or three boys, in Rowing Boat, and one of this boys came over and said, “do you want to come for a ride” and I always remembered been hammered in to me [laughing] “aye I got some money here, come for a ride in the boat” I said no thank you, we xxx[most not] and the other girls looked at me you know, I said no come on lets go, and we hurried back. Well when I got home [laughing] stupidly I said to my Mum, my Mum said “where did you go, and what did you do” and I said ooh we went round the back of the Lake, to see what it was like, and there was some boys in Rowing Boat, and I said they wanted us to come in the boat, and offered us money ooh and I my Dad was sitting in the armchair and short up, he said “they offered you money” I said yeah ooh I realised ooh “come on get your coat on” he dragged me up the Police Station, and I was in tires, “tell the Sergeant what you told me” and I had to tell the Sergeant ooh I was crying, I said I didn’t go, we didn’t go honestly, because we been told we xxx[most not] go, we didn’t go [laughing] um the Police Man he said “well that was good girl” you know, but ooh I thought to myself ooh god the shame of it[laughing] and then we went back, and he said “you are not going over to the park any more” xxx and I thought ooh why did I tell my Mother[laughing]xxx

It most been quite and intimidating experience having to go to the police station then I think

Ooh yeah it was, yeah I learned quickly [laughing] ooh God yes

So they were obviously these boys they were obviously up to no good

Well xxx

Obviously been ten or eleven you probably quite innocent about

Yeah, yeah xxx[of course] you are, yeah I didn’t know any thing [laughing] but err I always remember that experience, funny that. But as I said we learned and we learned quickly

Yeah

[Laughing]

It most been quite scary

[Laughing]

[Laughing] ooh I was really upset, I thought to myself I didn’t see my Dad sitting there [laughing]

Um i was assuming it wasn’t the last time you got to go over to the park xxx wasn’t it [laughing]

Ooh no, no I used to go over, no because it was our park, so you know we go over and things, do lot of things, go over and xxx my friends their Mothers sometimes be with us um all that,

Ok

Yeah, so we xxx [did nothing] you know do any thing bad [laughing] we were pretty good I must say

Where there any kind of um sort of made up games or made up adventures you would had in the park with your friends that you would like to share

Err, ooh yes, ooh we used to pretend [laughing] err what was it err something and Indian

Ooh like cow boys and Indians

Cow boys and Indians, ooh there we hide in the bushes, because they are quite thick the bushes, and you could hide, we are the cow boys and you are the Indians, you got try and find us, and err we would count xxx[see] how many xx we would count before they caught us, and err ooh there, all sort of things, xxx[some of the ] tress we would try and climb up, and got told off by the park keepers “don’t you there xxx[tear] those tress” xxx[not] about you [laughing] don’t tear the tress[laughing] ooh yes we play all sort of games, if we could get a lump of wood xxx[and] Tennis ball and play Cricket and things like that you know make thinks, ooh yeah lot of things, we would do, then there was a tea bar over there, xxx[we used to say] how much money have you got [laughing] how much money can we put together for a xxx [laughing]

Xxx and share one cup of tea [laughing]

Yeah [laughing] ooh yes, xxx[get to] go home filthy dirty, most of the time my Mum used to say to me “what have you been doing over there” nothing [laughing] but err ooh yes, it was a lovely park really was, I think we are one of the Borough, that got quite a few parks init? We got quite a few parks when you know stop and count them up

And they are quite sort of sizable park as well

Yeah they are

And they got few sort of green parches in Walthamstow but nothing to the scale xxx

No, no we have got some; I mean this xxx [Mayer brook] park that is a big park

Yeah

Xxx they gonna, ooh ecologies gonna, are you involved in that?

Um I am afraid not, no unfortunately

[Laughing]

But xxx

I keep asking them question every time I see a little group come round you know, um they put a notice up on the fences out here, the xxx [bloody thing] err somebody most had taught it, one of the holes slips of course it was handing down, so I went xxx [laughing] rolled of sailor tape, and sailor taped it all [laughing] so it stayed there

It certainly not coming off now its [laughing]

No, no, ooh yeah we did, and of course I couldn't afford it, my Mum couldn't afford a Bick for me, but I had um, whats the, ooh the other thing you could buy xxx [push] scoter,

Err Ok

Yeah, I had a scoter that was my horse, that was every thing, and we played like that try and play Ice Hockey on it [laughing] find a bit of flat ground and try play Ice Hockey, take err wooden stick or um somebody’s err chair you know, xxx and err ooh also, it was the era when you didn’t had a lot of money, and you had to make [coughing] you had to make up things, and that you know really did it for you, of making up. Not now where kids, I want so and so, and the Mother go and buy it

Um

You know, they don’t used their imagination, sad really I think yeah

I definitely agreed

If kids could you know, if we had a play leisure scheme years ago, and that was pretty good and every park, had a play leisure scheme in it ,and that was marvellous because the people who were paid to be there, one or two people then they get volunteers Mums to come and helped them, they used to play organised games and things, and hide and sick that was favourite and um, xxx[but] err because of money that was chop back some years ago

I believed now Barking Park actually have and Education out reach manager um and I know that they do organise um

Yeah they do

Xxx certainly during the School holiday because that nature xxx for children

That right um

And thing like that xxx

Because am a friend of Barking Park

All right I see

I sit on that, I don’t always had time to go to the meeting, and especially in the evenings when it start to get dark, I do not go out in the evenings, but um I got friends who go to it, but you know there you go

I was going to asked you actually about because you obviously told me a few stories about the staff in Barking Park when you were a child like the attendance at the pool sort of shouting at people and the Park keeper shouting at people climbing trees and things is there any particular characters in particular that you can remember and think even if you only had Nicknames for them or what ever some one who was particular standout in your mind

Well there is one chap; he is retired xxx [Peter xxx]

Um

He is, he was head of the um, bowling Green, and he is retired now, h e was very-very good at his job, and I see him on a Tuesdays and Thursdays, when I go in and had lunch in the Church, he goes in, he doesn’t have a full meal, because he got two Sons who had never married and the three of them you know lived together

Oh that's nice

And err they do the cooking, and Peter said I mustn’t eat too much in case I don’t eat my dinner [laughing]

[Laughing]

But um yeah well, I don’t remember exactly any names, I probably did had names

Were the Park keeper quite intermediating characters to the children did you every feel like I don’t know they where watching you and xxx

No, I had the feeling that, they were responsible and that if, any thing went wrong you could go to them, I had a certain amount of trust yeah as a child, ooh yes that was there job part of their job, um especially after my Dad [laughing]

[Laughing]

Ooh there, ooh yes yeah I loved Parks and trees, I loved trees and um looking at them and I think it comes from seeing the films, what the films xxx been on, where the trees talked?

Ooh crikey um the first thing that pop in to my head then was Pocahontas that was xxx films but I don’t think you mean that [laughing]

No, it was err there was three wasn’t xxx

Talking trees, I can’t think xxx

Err the trees talked and then rise up, against the people, ooh xxx what is it?

[Laughing]

There were three episodes of it, where there are dwarfs and little people

Ooh um

Lord of the rings

Lord of the rings [laughing]

Lord of the rings, ever since I have seen that, when I go down to my daughters and we walked through the Forest, and err I walked through Forest you know xxx I feel like saying come on then talked to me [laughing]

[Laughing]

It is daft I know but

But you can almost imagine them doing it with your head cant you

Yeah, yeah in the Lord of the rings, you know that, that episode there, and I thought to myself yeah [laughing]

Is there any particular Wild life that you are particular fund of that is in Barking Park ,for example on the Lake or the squirrel or the trees in particular or

I just loved watching them, xx [there is]alot of squirrel there

Yeah

No foxes err

I have never seen a fox, but am sure they probably come out at night don’t they

Ooh yeah, we used to get alot of foxes, come out here, xxx [the back] here come through the fencing of the Park

Ooh ok

But now that stream it there, I haven’t seen them, I haven’t seen the foxes but there is plenty of squires there

Um

I think they are funny; xxx people don’t like them, do they?

Ooh I loved them

I found it, I found it sad I go over there and take you know things and shake it among the bushes

They are very entertaining watching squirrels isn’t it [laughing]

Ooh they are, xxx [laughing] and you know when you are walking in the park, and they come running up init?

[Laughing]

[Laughing] I haven’t xxx [brought anything] ooh am so sorry, I haven’t bought anything [laughing]

It almost like they can understand you as well

Yeah, yeah

[Laughing]

Yeah, yeah [laughing] ooh yeah I loved animals you know, and err God you see some dogs coming in there, but most of them are kept on leads xxx some of them xxx[are furious] don’t they? But err they are ok, my daughter she got a staffy, she did had one before that and err, it died got to fifteen and it died, and she was broken hearted, and err I said to her leave it for about a year, and then go in for another one, but she didn’t listen, it what about four months and they got another one, somebody was getting rid of it, it three years old so they got another one, it like a great big xxx

[Laughing]

Yeah, but they are so strong you know, I couldn’t take him out for a walked, take it out for a walked, xxx[he] pull me over

Xxx Like normally hugs my own but big dogs are still much stronger then I am so

Yeah they are, yeah, yeah

I was just gonna asked you um, another quick question about the Lido sorry am jumping around a little bit xxx

No it ok

Um but I have heard that there was, um kind of like fountains and water sliding xxx [in there as well]

Yeah, it was lovely, there was some you know big bowl fountains yeah it was lovely because I thought not to have the xxx [bowls] kicked out

Ok

Did you see it when it was there?

Um I didn’t see it while it was there but um one of my colleagues actually interviewed a chap a couple weeks ago, for a different project and he was a member of that club and he dropped round um a film

Yeah

About it and he was like um he video all of the club and was like you know

Yeah

It was kind of like a campaign to save it

Yeah, say that the Lido

Um

Right that how it is there, now this Conner ,when that all went to the wall, this Conner was taken over by xxx[short mate bowl Centre]and they spend alot of money, alot of their own money, and this Conner , they took out this Conner just this little bit on the Conner

Ok

And as I said, they worked very - very hard they painted they put things in they build a nice kitchen, one err, one wing went down this way, and about three wings went down that way, now on the outside they were plants climbing up the outside and it look really pretty that Conner, this was all wipe away the actual swimming pool, was drained and it was nothing, err that bit down there was xxx[shut] off, that bit, that bit , that bit was xx[shut] off, this you could get in but it was not used er this Conner was used, and the bit at the bark, the bit at the bark here, was turned into a community room, where the community could seat and do things, and papers were kept you know filing cabinet, so it sort of extended there just a little bit, now they kept it absolutely first class clean and everything, they had a good attendance very sociable anybody could joined, they even started up err a disable

Ok

Group and they were wonderful, absolutely wonderful, I used to go in there sometimes because xxx um I knew her very well good friend of mine, and I would go in there and stay and watch them, and they will say “you come in you play bowls” so I said no I can’t play bowls you teach me [laughing] you know

[Laughing]

And they said “yeah I will teach you, I teach you” and it was hilarious I would deliberately make a mistake, and it would roll off of the carpet, and they would fall about laughing and they come and put it in my hand xxx and then I will get one strike, and they go ooh yeah xxx[look, look]

Ooh

And they where been in xxx you know they taught me to bowl

Yeah

And it was lovely, and every any time I went in there, they will recognise me, and talk and they played in this one going up this way, and the other one was the ordinary people, there was three wings, two or three wings I don’t know can’t remember, and err it was great, it was for the people in the area they paid for it everything themselves, and there was no reason for them they could have knock all the rest of it down, taking the pool out, or filled it in with earth made err nice green with seats and for the old people and for toddlers and that top play in, put some nice bushes xxx[things] there all the rest of it could been pull down except for this bit

Um

And that would seat there, it was nicely decorated, nice pretty flowers round it, and it could had stayed there

Right so you fell that it was unnecessarily

It was totally unnecessary, and I told the Councillor that, and I told the Council, but somebody there wanted them out

Right

And I think that was so bad, they gave them room up at the new complex up at XXX [Becontree Heat] I mean, why? The people lived round here, you know and they didn’t asked for anything, they didn’t cost anything but now they got to pay for their time there

Ooh really

And I don’t know whether the disable still go there or not

I heard that they had to keep the original 1930xxx so that might have hinder any plans they had to knock down the rest but I thought that was part of the heritage lottery funding

Ooh they put the xxx the whole lot down

Ooh, no the original front entrance wall xx they kept that

Have they?

The bit down the side, I think they taking out

I haven’t been up there, I would have go up there and have a look

Yeah and they preserved the fountains as well which is why I ask about the earlier

Yeah that is right

So they have preserved bits of it but I don’t know obviously they extent to what went on with you know the bowls club unfortunately

No, I fought tooth and nail over them and I was so upset, when they had to go because xxx has work her socks off I mean ,she is same age as me probably, and she work her socks off, and they made money and build thing there and it wasn’t necessary, that Conner could had been kept there

Um

As a historical reminder, and err I was really angry. I said who has decree that this is gone nobody would tell me

Um

But there was a reason, there was a reason I think

It will be interesting to find out what that reason was xxx

I would loved to know, because am angry, I am really angry because it broke xxx heart

Really

She put so much work in to it, and she doesn’t xxx [that] nobody likes it, where they are, I think they have lost members. But there you go, if I had been on the Council they wouldn’t had lost it

Um

[Coughing]

It quite sad

But err I think that was, that was bad, very bad

Um

They said why couldn’t they have gone into the ordinary bowl centre, it wouldn’t have gone, it wouldn’t have fitted in, you can’t have short mate in with full length of mate you know, it would mean crossing over and wearing out the carpet

I think the person who gave me the film of it said u, I think it was a section of the film; the mates were really, really heavy so obviously if you laid them out on top of something else you xx sort of rolled them out and put them back up again

No

Where as in the place they had apparently could leave them out full times so

Yeah that right

So it was just easier for everyone I think that what I heard any way

Yeah

It sound kind of xxx [laughing]

I think it was so sad, but what can you do? And if I had found out I would had [laughing]

[Laughing] it would have been best pleased

Ooh yeah, but that’s, that

I was just gonna see um I have got some photography here and I was wondering if you would like sort of go through them and just talk about any memories that come to your mind when you look at them If that ok

Yeah

This is one of um the chater celebration days in 1931 and I know you were around then but am not sure if you remember any of it apparently xx [Anna Neagle] who was quite a famous actress at the time

Who?

Anna Neagle

Ooh god yeah, ooh cranky, ooh yeah, that’s her init?

Can you remember the Boating Lake at all did you ever go on it?

Well I can remember the boating lake yes, we had um one of this steam things with xxx big wheels going on it

Um

Ooh yeah I went on it, one of my cousins said err I don’t know how it came about, but I couldn’t swim I was about nine, and she was about um thirteen, fourteen I think

Um

And we went over the park, and we taking our costume, swimming costumes and towels and she said come on, am gonna teach you to swim, and I looked at her and I thought ooh God you know I don’t know if am gonna like this[laughing] but I thought ooh well. So any way and it was a dirty xxx well it wasn’t so dirty those day, and err she said come on get in, jump in, jump [laughing] I wasn’t sure [laughing] gonna go, but any way I got in, there she was she was xxx[strict] do this do that, err it xxx[enough] cold [laughing]

[Laughing]

But I learn to swim

In Barking Lake that’s incredible

Yeah in Barking Lake, would you believed it, God dear

Sorry some of the photos

Xx swimming pool was built [laughing]

[Laughing]

God I felt as if it was filthy, ooh that right yeah. God look at that. That was a paddling pool

Ooh do you remember the paddling pool at all?

Yeah, yep

Could you tell me little bit about the paddling pool if that is ok?

Well, that was where the Mothers would take the toddlers it wasn’t very deep, and if they wanted to they could take off their shoes, and then walked up and down with the children, ooh yeah that was very popular

Did you take your own children there?

No, I didn’t [laughing] comes to think of it, no I took them in here, and err taught them to swim

Ooh they xxx

It is a big of a job, because as I said it was freezing it really was cold

So your children learn to swim in the Lido itself did they?

Ooh yeah, yeah my daughter became a very proficient swimmer and she swam for her school which was Barking Abbey [laughing]

Ooh right

Yeah she became very good, ooh yeah I remember this

That the xxx [phoenix] stick paddle steamer

That right yeah, I went

Did you ever go on that?

Yes, yeah that xxx [when] my daughter was born, 1950

Ooh really

Yeah

Could you describe the experience of going on the paddle steamer?

Well it was just good fun, you had to watch the kids you know that they didn’t go too xxx [bezar] um ooh yeah it was good fun there, yeah I can remember that, and the ones when you are on the sides we would wave to them, ooh that is the lodge yes, God that been there some years, that where we had the meeting, friend of Barking Park meeting

The lady who donated that photo actually used to lived in that house with her Father

Did she?

Yeah, her Father Xxx [Lace Taylor] I think he used to work in the green houses

Ooh yeah

I don’t know if it a name you familiar with xxx [Lace Taylor]

No, I don’t think so

Ok

Ooh yes I remember this, we used to put our arms under it [laughing] you do as kids don’t you?

Under the fountains

Yeah under the fountains

All right ok

Yeah. God look that view there

That image is quite dark unfortunately init

It is in it, yeah

You can make out, what most of it are

We used to had um xxx on the carnival community

All right

And um we used to had a gala there, as a thing of getting err money for the charity, you know the err the carnival was all about err getting money from the Mayor funds

Um, so you used to have a swimming gala in the Lido

Yeah

Ooh ok

Yeah, yeah [coughing] ooh yeah that was great fun, and we had, we would had a net ball rally, we play on the tennis court in the park

Um

It coming back now

[Laughing] it a great thing about photos it tend to bring stuff back init

Ooh it xxx, doesn’t it? Yeah, we would had a net ball rally and the boys would had err five side football competition

Um where will they held the five a side?

Err I think it was where, the xxx not xxx golf thing was

Err

And then they turned that into err, I vaguely remember that, the charter celebration going round, with my Mum and Dad, XXX [Lace Taylor] ooh handsome looking bloke

Was a very handsome man

Yeah

It such a wonderful picture as well xxx actually working with the flowers

It is init? Yeah very good, ooh am up there somewhere, or the kids might be there [laughing] 1950 ooh no, they won’t be there fifty xxx [Lin] was just born then [laughing] ooh that was great fun, I was surprise that the number of people that came from East Ham

Really

Yeah

Was there a xxx quite xx [high] portion of people used to come for the Lido then

Ooh yes, yeah you say where you from xxx on the boat house, that was fun. God that old init 1910

Am not really expecting any one to remember that [laughing] particular one

No, you can tell that cant you? By the xxx over the top

I just thought they were quite lovely images so I thought I would bring them along anyway

Yeah they are, yeah it was always a meaning of photos wont it?

[Laughing]

Barking Park entrance

I have been told that the Park Avenue entrance

Yeah, I was going to say, that not the main entrance

No

Berceuse the house was the main entrance

Yeah, yeah, yeah Anti Aircraft Gun here, here ooh look

Can you remember where the Anti aircraft Guns where in the Park where about

Yeah they were down near you know the School?

Of course yeah

Err it was the original Grammar School Barking Abbey, it still part of the Barking Abbey that is in xxx [Sheringham] Drive now, walk down that end, where the fence is, between the Park and the School, down there they build prefabs rows of prefabs, for the solders. And then the guns would be there, I don’t know approximately where, but it couldn't have been far from there, so that they got to them quick, ooh yeah I remember them they looks as if xxx houses over there doesn’t it ?

It possible yes,

Yeah

I believed that particular gun

Ooh that gun looks a bit old init?

I believed that one was from 1918 so that xxx that the only picture I can find of

Yeah 1918, ooh that's yeah, ooh dear xxx

[Laughing]

Xxx [ooh that is it] yeah fairy to Hong Kong [laughing] was that a film?

I believed so yes

Yeah, I was going to say

I think is was um

Most be

A bit of appetizing

Yeah, yeah I remember that boat

I do actually have a picture of it but I was wondering ooh is a picture of it in the front of the leaflet thou I was wondering if you know any thing about the band stand or if you had attended any thing at the band stand

Well we used to go and listen to the bands playing, and people used to do a little xxx round [laughing]

[Laughing]

Yeah

Can you remember the names of any of the bands that used to play at the band stand?

Ooh no, no I can’t xxx

Because I have heard they um band obviously lot of the big company at that time would have had their own band places like Ford

Ooh yeah

So I wonder with your husband having work at Fords whether he knew if their band had every played over there or anything like that

No, I couldn’t [noise] we used to have a tug of war contest too

Ooh really

[Laughing] yeah

Was that during the carnival or was that

Err am just trying to think, no that was Dagenham town show

All right

That was the town show, we use to have, I used to be drag in to help run the net ball rally

Ooh

And the boys used to have five a side football competition in the town show, I don’t think they have it now, which I think is a shame, I suppose they haven’t got the volunteers

I think the Dagenham town show is still happen because I went to a

Ooh yes it those

Yeah

Um ooh yes that, wouldn’t stop [laughing]

[Laughing]

No, no it a lot of things you know, you think to yourself xxx [God] things happen and it suddenly click, ooh yeah I remember that

Um, looking at those photos sort of spark any other memory that you would like share about Barking Park or the wider Barking area

Well, Barking area, how it changed [laughing]

Would you like to talk about that for a little bit you know describing what way you think it changed?

Well it changed, because of the high rise flats in the Town Centre, which I don’t all together like, its taking away the shopping things it close down, we haven’t got any nice shop in Barking decent shop, we did had a Marks and Spencer , we had a Woolworth, Woolworth was here for years, and when I was on the Council, when Marks and Spencer closing and I went in, I saw the manager, and I said please don’t go, and he look down he xxx at me and he said “we don’t take enough money here” he said “the people don’t spend money you know” he said “we are going to sell it off and put the money in Ilford Marks and Spencer” I said err thanks so that killed Barking

Um

I said well if you had some a bit more err assortment of things, I said but you are very restricted I said you could spread, you could spread out quite a bit, I said but you haven’t but he wouldn’t listen to me he is very xxx

Um

And I think that, I think that was a shame, but err and of course you know it not enough, there is not enough space now, to put any decent development, I mean xxx[what is the ] biggest shop we got this um Wilkinson, am glad that stay, but um when the market is not there, it is dead

Um

Really

Can you remember any of um, may be small independent business that were like family own or anything xxx in the area

Ooh God, the shops we used to had, we used to have a Sainsbury, we had um xxx, we had err, xxx err Boots is still here but there was xxx and Tailors that was a Chemist, we had a xxx[Williams] lovely tea shop where you would go in the front part, and get your bread fresh bread, all the nice smelling things, and then you would go through the glass doors in to a restaurant, that was very posh, and xxx[you would ]had err on the Saturday my Mum used to take me in, and we will had um, cream cake and a cup of tea, real living then[laughing[ and um we had all sort of shops that were in xxx[existence then] all the old grocery and that, xxx [Maypole ]you probably don’t even know about that[laughing]

I have not heard of Maypole no

No the Maypole ,that was a grocery shop, we had a lovely Sainsbury, and err I used to stand the other side my nose would be just above the xxx[laughing] my Mum take me shopping and I used to be you know my eyes, would pop out when xxx,xxx,xxxx [laughing]

[Laughing]

Doing this xxx or something, we used to be going every xxx [where] [laughing] ooh dear, I used to loved going in Sainsbury, they supposed to be building a new store but whether when and where, I think North Street or something I don’t know, but it not like it used to be, we had two lovely dress shops, err Coat and dresses and things like that, I can’t think of the name of them now, but I also remember going in one and the children were only young, and I wanted a new Coat, and I went in [laughing] and err didn’t had xxx[them] with me I don’t think, and I tried on this Coat that I rather liked and I said um, am so looking at it in the mirror [laughing]this woman came over to me, she is a lovely woman, and um she said “yes” she said “that suite madam xxx” she said “and when madam had her hair done that would look even lovelier” and I took the Coat off[laughing] and I handed it back to her, and I said madams hair always look like this[laughing]

[Laughing]

I walked out [laughing]

That is brilliant

And I said I can’t afford it any way [laughing]

[Laughing]

Ooh I was really angry [laughing]

Well no one wants to be insulted when they are doing a bit of shopping

No,

[Laughing]

Ooh dear, it was so funny, but there was the High Street as it is now, and then you went down Ripple Road, there was shops all down there too there was quite a lot of shops which we lost now, it only just one main street init, well there a few round the Conner Ripple xxx [Road] but err none to really speak off and err I was, I was xxx [called them] 299 cheap, cheap labour shops

Um

It nothing of any consequence, the only shop that is worth anything, is the shoe shop, now what it is name it been there xxx and he sells good shoe, he is on the Station Parade

Ooh Station Parade

Yeah, and err apart from any other shops, I go over Ilford if I want something nice, Romford is xxx ok but um I don’t know

Sorry is just one thing I forgot to asked you earlier both your parent they were actually from Barking were they

Yeah

Ok

XXX [well I think they were] ooh my Mother she, she was born in err outside Cambridge

All right ok

Her Father was the village Blacksmith

Wow

They were lot of kids, and when I heard my Mum talked about, why they came up to Barking was one of her sisters, married somebody and they lived in Castle School down on the A 13 err castle in the castle they were ooh very upper class people, she married him and he persuaded them, for the family to come up to Barking, why I don’t know, but they did now where my Dad was born I don’t know, I haven’t got a clue, I know he had relatives in xxx [Barnsley ]xxx [my name is xxx] by the way

All right ok

And he did talked about his cousins been miners, so they must had come from South Wales so I would imagine

Ok

But where he was born, I don’t know, I have never thought about trying to check, I am gonna go up to what the house; up in London where you could look bark through your ancestry xxx [cant you?]

Um

Yeah get off at xxx

Am pretty sure you can do um local study and family history at Valence House as well

Can you?

Yeah, they have an archive and local studies centre there now so they got quite a lot of record and thing xxx

Ooh, am friend of Valence House

You should pop down it a lovely archive as well actually

Yeah I know xxx [I helped on the sales of the books]

Oohs do you?

Um

Ooh lovely

Yeah xxx, ooh yeah ever since I went to Valence Ward, because I had to um I could see a lot of the Asian were moving in, to Barking xxx [Glenny Road] all round there, and then they started expressing a desire to be on the Council, and I could see who is going to get kick off, because they were two young men

Um

With me, and err I think I thought to myself um, so I put the word round and I had six, invitations four in Dagenham and tow in Barking ,was three and three I don’t know which, and I thought to myself, I went for a walked round Valence Ward, and I quite like it, and I like Valence House

Um

So I said I will pick Valence House, and I was there for twenty years

Ooh wow, so know there very well then you already know lot better than I do [laughing]

[Laughing] yeah I know the extension that they build yeah, and I loved Valence House, am not so sure whether I like what they had done in the inside Valence House well it was old, and it really wanted doing up I supposed but there you go, but I go and she phone me up yesterday xxx

All right ok

And said “can I help out at September book thing” I said well there is one day I can make it but am not sure about the other one, and I would let her know

Um that fair enough init, one out of two isn’t bad [laughing]

And I had the one, in the middle, all the books on Barking and Dagenham and places adjacent in London, so I got all that big area which is about, you know round there, all the books pile up [laughing] and I stand there saying come and learn about your library [laughing] come and learn about the history of the Borough [laughing]

So probably the right job for you because you knew the area obviously really, really, well because of what you been you know you xxx life and work

I said I shout out and they killed them self laughing, come and have a look, come and have a look, learn about your Borough, learn about the history all the history of Fords motor company right here [laughing]

[Laughing]

And I practically cleared my stool, I said god dear, I said well it is because you joined in, it is the fun of it

Um

You know

How was your voice at the end of the day?

Ooh it is all right

It is gone [laughing]

PE teacher and you can’t shout [laughing]

[Laughing]

Yeah, ooh yeah so

Lovely, it is really lovely xxx

Yeah I enjoyed doing it, get two buses round there so [laughing] yeah I loved doing anything like that, history and that, am really into it I loved it history

Ooh good

Yeah

If you have access to the internet you might be interested in our website because we got quite a lot of audios

I did had a computer

All right ok, you didn’t like it

Well it would have taken up time

[Laughing]

And my time is out there

Yeah, we do have some lovely audios clips and pictures and stuff on our websites if you ever get access to err

I gave it to my daughter, and she, she never wanted one and err, ooh my god you can’t stop her now

[Laughing]

And err I did think about going back ooh don’t, don’t let the Council hear you see

No

I did think about going back in to planning, and saying have you got another computer [laughing]

[Laughing]

Because they changed them every now and again

Yeah

You see if they got a decent one they xxx they said ooh they only xxx on the tip

Yeah

Which I think it is a great shame

It is very rear that xxx

So if I want one they keep their eyes out for me, don’t tell them that

No, of course not [laughing] we will edit that bit out as well is fine [laughing]

When I got time to seat down and xxx around with one, I like to be out and about and talking to people

Um

You know it is lovely that, what is all about talking init and communicating, you see my trophies up there [laughing]

I do see the trophies; it is a lot of trophies

Yeah, I got boot boxes [laughing]

[Laughing]

[Laughing]Up there [laughing] with the small ones, medal and things

Wow

But err, and the big one up there, I got to give that back to this xxx[year] because that was the ladies singles last years

Ooh ok

I worn it

So you had your name put on it

I got a few of xxx in there but he was a very shy man, he wouldn’t err worry about it too much, yeah

That fantastic, I can probably stop the tape now if you like actually [laughing] um

Has it finished?

Ooh no there is still time on there

Ooh go on then

If it is anything else that you would like to say

Err probably something will come to me but, I don’t think anything at this stage [laughing]

[Laughing]

I have said enough too, I get myself into trouble

Don’t worry I will make sure you don’t get in any trouble is fine [laughing]

[Laughing] no

I would just stop it now then thank you

END OF TAPE

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Jean Elizabeth Mary Bruce

Project: Barking Park

Date: 26^th August 2011

Language: English

Venue: Interviewees Home

Name of interviewer: Claire Days

Length of interview: 99:37 minutes.

Transcribed by: Hal fig Barry

Archive Ref: 2011_esch_BaPa_03

1:27:08.3

2011_esch_BaPa_04

2011_esch_BaPa_04

Ok that should be recording now then and this is Claire Days interviewing erm, Mrs Groves on the 23^rd August 2011 for the Barking Park Project and if I now tell your full name and date of birth please. Joyce Doris Groves, now I was Joyce Doris Williams.

Ok

Previously

And your date of birth please

28^th of the eighth 1929.

So it’s nearly your birthday, happy birthday for next week!

Yeah [Laughs]. I’m a twenty, a 1920 baby. Um…

And can I ask where you were born?

Yes, Howard Road, Barking.

Howard Road, and what did your parents do for work?

My Dad was a carpenter, and then he finished up as a err erm, you know in clerk of the works you know in xxxx. My mother was a pianist and she took children to teach them the piano.

And did you have any brothers or sisters?

Yes, one brother. He was older than me, 4 years older. And he was born with a beautiful voice and err, he sang ever-, he went all round, he sang in the cathedrals and in Canterbury cathedral up in Westminster, he, he was one of these young boys that had a wonderful voice you know. And my Granddad, my granddad used to take him boxing and my mother nearly died when he cae-[laughs] he came home and all his face was messed up and the following day he was singing in the cathedral.

Crikey, how did he look?

[laughs]

Was it, was it…

I don’t know if I were her to shoutin’ and my brother lookin’ very sorry for hisself

Bless him, he must have been quite embarrassed himself.

[Laughs] Yeah I know, I know but err, my mum, my, my Grandfather he was erm, he was eld-, he worked for Ba-, erm the, er gas work, the gas company, Barking, you know the gas company that was here and erm, he lived, I know you going to laugh about this but his fa-, all his erm, family, all had pubs and they had the ferndow(?) Pub in erm Cyprus and d’you know where Cyprus is?

I do know where Cyprus is yeah..

Where?

Erm, well it’s kind of in the Meditterraenean isn’t it?

No, no. no, not Cyp-, no at Woolwich [laughs] That’s where Cyprus is. Did you know that Cyprus at Woolwich.

No, no I thought Cyprus was just the Island off of Greece

No, no and his father use to ran-, run the, erm, er you know, he use to er, er, have the Ferndow Public House in Cyprus. Um, that is down sort of on the Woolwich you know when you’re going down to the ferry sort of thing and erm, err, he er, huh, he, he boxed, my Granddad boxed you see and he boxed erm, ooh I can’t remember, Alfred tell you, the, er pedlar, something Pedlar, something, somebody or the other, he was a champion boxer and he said to my granddad that erm, he would give him three rounds ‘cause my Granddad thought he was cat’s whiskers you know and he’d ,he’d take him for three rounds and if he beat Pedlar he was the champion. The, er, he would give him a Guinea, my granddad did, he knocked him out [laughs]

How many rounds did it take?

Three, it was only three rounds [laughs] Alf! What was the name of the champion that granddad ….

Alfred Groves: Pedlar Palmer

Pedlar Palmer, see I’m taking you way, way back here, in older, old Barking you see.

Oh that’s great. We like that as far back as you can go is fine by me.

Yeah, that’s what I mean, that takes you way, way back.

Alfred Groves: xxxx him at Wanstead Flats.

Pardon?

Alfred Groves: He fought him at the fairground at Wanstead Flats.

Oh really?

Alfred Groves: And if you went three rounds you got, I that, either, I think it’s either ten shillings or a guinea.

No he got a guinea

Alfred: And he went the three rounds and got the guinea.

Wow. That’s a pretty impressive.

Though mean he bee-, erm, he’d been to the pub though hadn’t he, He’d been to the Ferndow, they were gonna have the er, have it in the Ferndow. I thought he’d did it at the Ferndow but…

Alfred Groves: Oh no it was on the Flats

I, I don’t know which way it was round but you-, you know the stories go round and round, and so of course my granddad wanted his grandson to be, none of his own sons were interested in boxing. But my brother, you know, he, my, when from the time he was his age, ‘cause granddad was older and had more time at home and err, he started tauch-, teaching him to box from when he f-first walk [laughs]

I think he probably regretted that later on

I er [laughs] yeah. I don’t know, I thought it seemed to get him out quite a bit of trouble with school and all that. But no, it, it erm, it, it, granddad had a great xxxx, I’ll tell you another thing he was, he worked in the, where was it he worked in, in Gat-

Alfred groves: In the retort house.

In the retort house

Oh ok

And the fo-, there was four men from the retort house that started up the Woolwich equitable.

Ok

You know so old granddad was quite err…

You’re quite well connected aren’t you?

Yeah, my Grandmother, his wife erm, who it, actually granddad was his, her second marriage. Er, her father was the vicar of chel-, of erm, oh God what church was it Alf? I do let my brain go!

Alfred Groves: Chigwell

Chigwell church

Oh ok, where, where abouts is that?

Chigwell church

Oh Chigwell, sorry yeah.

D’you know on the, d’you know the corner, on the corner there the big church and he did a lot of the carvings, the, he was brilliant at, at wood carvings, but he was a evil devil to her. To his family.

Oh dear.

My Grandmother had to, she was very clever, she, she tried, you know, she got brilliant brains she and er she, he had her scrubbing all the, the things which he come out from teaching, she had terrible xxxx, some of these they did didn’t they so they’s… But any way, is err, you know it’s a, in fact my cousin it, at this moment is, is putting out, but that’s why all this is in my mind. ‘cause I’ve been bri-, we’ve been remembering it, bringing it all up for, for her. But then when Nan and Granddad came here to Barking, he came in to Morley Road, and um, they started up the Labour Party.

Ok

The original crowd. My mum and Dad all, all were tied up and they finished, started up the Labour party, with other people. There weren’t the, once upon a time, I know there was erm, Julie Ingwell, all those people you know that started, the really bi-, they’re the people that built Barking. You know, they, they built, they, everything was done you know. Nothing was done for nothing. Everybody worked on it hard. And then my Dad, he, he designed and erm, there used to be a side of the level crossings. There used to be the labour hall there. And my father sought of designed it and built it.

Wow

That was the side of the level crossings there and I don’t know what happened to it, it’s all been pulled down now hasn’t it? Where do you think it’s gone...

Yeah, I can’t remember it being there now.

Yeah, ooh I taught dancing in there for quite some, or how

Ok

Yes you know and, and I started teaching but we got in fact it was the hall we had our wedding in you know.

Wow

Bein’ my father built it, but no it’s um, it’s, it’s all the old people of Barking that I know, you know. There’s so many of ‘em, and try-, you can see them but names have vanished you know, but it, it was such. Barking was always known, either Tories, the old Tories the xxx, liked Barking because Barking did everything for the people. Barking was a, a, a town you know that erm, was so proud of it’s borough and it, it was a, I can remember it more as a village and everything you know. As, as, every, everybody was always working something, never, it was never you know today, if you, if somebody does something, is how much err, err at what's your charge. That didn’t happen you see and that’s why people can’t understand me, at Faircross Community Association. There are, I mean we’ve worked since it opened in the 19, 19, at 1990s you know and we don’t want that see and you know lately they’ve all been forcing off to take a couple of hundred pound a year for his petrol ‘cause he’s, he’s running here there everywhere, yet n’everything, but the, todays people don’t understand. They think we’ve got screws loose because we do things for nothing. I mean for years here in Barking I’ve put on shows and the monies all gone to Barking to, to the erm, charities commission. You know we had a carnival charities commission, well that hap-, now that is where it ties up with the park. You see, because erm, we used to organise, we always had a float in the carnival and we won so many times, people use to hate us. [laughing] where there was the children

I’m not surprised I’ve seen your green xxxxx

Oh I mean all the children, no all the children loved er, loved er, when you’re in dancing loved dressing up don’t they? And so you know, you’d already got all your costumes, you didn’t have to pay up for costumes or anything. But now-, and then my girls carried on after me, you know they’d opened dancing schools, and they carried on afterwards but it, it, and so I say really and truly for me in Barking it, it’s, it’s all up, going up the ladder.

Yeah

Yeah I, I’ll go now sitting at the top of the ladder and you know, can’t do much. [laughing] Would the foot come down it. [Laugh]but erm, no its a, you see the park was used for the, for that even years you know and there was so many lovely things that went on and then when the erm, er, this came in they’d have lovely music there.

Ahh the band stand.

Yes, and that, pete-, it was wonderful music that you used to go and listen to on a Sunday. And it, and there you know then, you had the erm, little children paddling pool, and the big swimming pool. And that’s all been taken away. And in those days the erm, the people that use to walk round the park, they, they used to have gaiters, you know up here and they all walked round and all wer-, and they had a hat you know and they were always special that if you were a child playing in the park, those men were always there to help you, you know? And erm, you didn’t get all, never, to ask all this trouble that fighting and what have you in the park. You’d go there, you know and everybody would join in. It was much more joining in than arguing and what have you. You know, you might get somebody and, I mean the Irish, you had a lot of Irish that came to Barking and they said Oooh you don’t go with them, you don’t mix with them, but we can’t, you know if you got somebody that pushes them in and they find out their nice people but the only trouble was you see, they were so poor, where like my brother all his mates would take a bit and go over where the rough edge is and they’d build a, put a fire, and, and, cook their sausages. Load of smoke they were. Ooh but they did taste lovely [laughing]. And you see, you know the-, if, if some-, what they use to do, my cousin Jackie and my cousin br-, my brother, they use to pinch all my Grandad’s and Mum’s and th-. Their beer bottles and take them back and get like the err-, the whites bottles and all the- take them back and get the tuppence off of them

Ok

You see and with that money, they buy sausages, if you get so chi-, sausage-, and then pinch a bit of Mum’s lard, and then they’d have this old, old bit of tin at the top and cook their sausages on [laughing]. They were gorgeous..

It’s a proper old fashioned barberque isn’t it...

Yeah, yeah, you see and the point of it is that, and the-, as I say, sometimes the Irish p-, because they weren’t terribly clean you see and they’d got so many children, they didn’t know and what I used to do, it sounds dreadful, but we had Irish next door but one and I hate-, my mother was very fussy you know, we always had to be clean and what, and I used to take the children in and wash them and put them in my clothes that’s in the back [laughing] and my mum used to say to Rene who was next door, ooh I’m sorry. She said don’t worry, she doing me a good turn [laughing]. She said xxxx[laughing] I used to bring them in the washer bowl. Dictatorial I was from the age of six.

Is that how old you were when you used to do that? You were six?

Yeah, xxxx, I could-n’s, I couldn’t stand seeing a little baby run around with a dirty nose, so I had to, I had to wipe it, and take it in and wash it you see, ‘cause then we lived in Denway...

Denway....

You know Denham Way? On the Eastbury estate.

Yes.

Yeah, number 19 Denham Way we lived. Yeah...

And what-, what schools did you go to in the area? Can you remember?

Yes, I went to, Eastbury..

Eastbury.

Then to Ripple, then passed a scholarship for Southit-, for when I was 11 for erm, Barking Abbey..

Wow

Went there three months, and they all evacuated to [laughing] wherever I’m, you, you don’t wanna hear about the schools I went to, it’s unbelievable [starts laughing]

You went to quite a few xxx did you?

Yeah, because they kept-, yes well you see I went to there and then where did I go to after there?

Where were you evacuated to?

I weren’t evacuated.

Ahhh, right.

My dad was going to send us to, he used his younger bro-, brother over in, in Florida and my mum and dad was sendi-, gonna send my brother and I to Florida, to get out of the war. And then, that, the boat was sank with all the children on it, you know thousands, children got killed, got drowned. The erm, they, it was one, one of the first boats for the children to go to America, and they erm, the submarines you know...

That’s terrible.

Yeah, and erm, so we didn’t go, but my gran-, my aunt-, my auntie, she, her husband was a big builder, and you know, he owned lots of property, that he used to live in Chadwell Heath. He bought a big house, a big-, a house with big moat, it was a house, sort of, say that’s the house there and all round it was a big moat.

Wow

And it used to have a, a cottage at the side here, well our Nan, when sh-, when da-, Grandad retired they went and lived in that cottage, my auntie lived here, well when the war happened, we all went down and first of all, we, we-s-s, you know us children all slept together in the house and then my granddad bought, er my uncle brought, bou- sort of erm, these temporary hou-, you know, bedrooms and, so we were all on, on all the family, were there at moat house erm, during the war and my granddad used to, all the back there, was all veges and all animals [laughing]

Wow

Yeah, and...

It sounds like quite an idealistic sort of setting really....

And then we lived in the Longbridge Road, my Mum lived in the Long-, Mum and Dad, moved to Longbridge Road. Xxxx Longbridge Road, opposite the park, and erm, while we were there erm, the Ack, Ack, had an Ack, Ack er thing opposite the par-, in the park. You know, did you know we had the Ack, Ack guns in the park.

I have heard about that. But could you tell me a little bit about that if that’s ok?

Yes, well the erm, guns were there and so were the erm, there was all tense in there, I can, you know, I can see them, all green tents, all in the, you know in that part of the park. And I tell you what, I was going to school one night ‘cause erm, we were staying at my granddads house in St Paul’s Road. This was after out house was er, no our house, our house was in the Longbridge road, my Dad was away, he was building erm, all the, these erm, wood planes, there were, what my granddad did, he helped on the, he was building the aero-, you know the what’s the names, for the Americans to come over.

Ok

The big erm, what they called ‘em, air force things, you know the big things. And erm, what they did also, where out bombers were going out, ‘cause they were bombing the every air field. Erm, he ma-, they made a load of wooden aeroplanes. And the-, in these pla-, on these err air fields they’d dug right underneath and the planes went underneath, but so here there was bombing ‘em at the top, but they were only wooden ones

[laughing] So they were kind of like decoy planes.

Decoy planes

Right ok

Didn’t ye-, haven’t you heard about them?

Erm, I, I don’t know, I think I may have heard about it once but, you know, to hear someone who actually

Yeah

....made the decoy that’s amazing

Yeah, my, my f-f-father it, that’s what Dad was all, all tied up with all that you see, and erm... So of course he, he, they did it round here at, err, quite a bit but you see the point of it is, they hadn’t had the time, here at Hornchurch, ‘cause you know we had airfield at Hornchurch. They didn’t have the time to, that-, that, there is a big, a big bunker underneath but wasn’t big enough to, wasn’t, didn’t have time enough to do it for the-, you know, to put the planes under there, ‘cause the, the wings came, went up or something, and they, they went through. I didn’t actually see them but you know, xxxx listening to my dad tell us all about it. But then, we was in Granddad’s house ‘cause our house erm, had been, er, you know erm, burnt with the, all the erm xxxx, Barking was badly hi-, hit you know during the war. Badly hit during the war. And erm….

Do you know why Barking was such a big target during the war?

Well because we’ve got the gas works, we got a lot of works here haven’t we, Ford’s, lots of thing-, lots of, I mean all this area was quite-, anywhere along the river, I mean when we lived in errr, Denham way, at the end of the ro-, at the end of the road in Blake avenue, there’s St Patrick’s Church there, when I wa-, there was no St Patrick’s Church there, that was just the big field. And erm, that is where also all the, us kids used to play you see. And they had a big erm, they had the airforce there, with the Barrage Balloon at the end of Denham Way, they had all the unit there and the, Barrage Balloon went up in the air. Well [laughing] we lived number 19 Denham Way and err, one of ‘em, came down and they fired at the, fired at the erm, the Balu-, Barrage Balloon, and ‘cause it came down right over the top of our dug out [laughing] and the men come round in all the, air force men come round here, “Don’t smile, don’t do this, don’t do that, you’re perfectly alright!” you know [laughing] they ‘cause it’s all filled with gas wasn’t it. And…

Were quite afraid or?

I don’t know I…., it’s a weird thing to say, although it was horrible, it was frightening, for most marvellous time of their life.

Really.

Because everybody was with everybody, d’you know what I mean it, you went in a train, I mean how often do you sit on a train and don’t speak a word from the moment you get on to-, it doesn’t matter here, you got on the bus, everybody was talking to one another. You got on the train, everybody was talking to one another. I mean, you know, when I moved to Hockley, by the time I got down here, I knew all their life [laughing] and they’d all mine you know. An that’s the sort of thing it, it was. And that’s what I was saying. That was how this area was. Very close. Very friendly. And today’s it’s all gone. There’s no, no commu-, community as such, is it today, it’s too individual. Now it’s too individual. People don’t work together, they [pause], do they, I mean, it’s your life now. I-, it, it’s, if only you, I, I always say, used to say to my pupils, you know as I got on in years, I wish I could take you back to old Barking. You know, because if you got a child dancing and the mum couldn’t afford, you know, she’d got two or three kids there and couldn’t afford to pay the dresses, a lot of the people that did have money were put towards those kids dresses. You know what I mean, and that was the sort of thing that I, I sort of lived in and very difficult to find to-, today, people would walk past them wouldn’t they, they wouldn’t do it. That, that is I think the killing of, of the borough. It, it’s not, not what I know this borough. Not at all now. Hate it. But I wouldn’t move.

Oh that’s quite sad.

We, we was going to move, we going to move to Paynton, we got a bungalow there and erm, I was taken ill, I had erm, haematomas all over me and erm, had to go to the hospital and I got this rare blood disease [phone rings] he’ll answer it up stairs, anti biotic poison and erm, I, I was lucky in hospital you know and err, it-t-t-t, I, I just can’t believe all what’s gone on, you know? An-it, I went there and there was all my girls there to come to see me. If I’d been in, in Paynton, where we were moving to, I wouldn’t have seen a soul, only the people I knew down there, but I xxxx, whereas here while I was in hospital you know, it was a nightmare keeping the people out.[Laughing] Because, it’s all my, my dancing girls you see. Ok they don’t live here now they’re all over the place all in Essex, hardly, many o-, not many of them live actually in the Borough. But erm, every year, if you come here on the twenty-first of December there will be a table from here right down to the end there, and that is where all the girls that I trained and they’ve all become teachers and examiners, they all come and we have a big Christmas dinner

Oh lovely.

You know, and then, then added to that, another lot either, another night I have another lot of them. That were younger, in a younger lot of things [laughing] you know. And it, it’s, it’s just, that is, that’s why I didn’t wanna to mo-, well, move, because I said when I come out of hospital, I said to Alf, I we’ve been Paynton, I wouldn’t of had all these girls because they pull you through things. You know.

Like an extended family almost.

Yes, it’s jus-, it, it did, we’re like a big family. That is, that’s what I’m saying, Barking was err, a big family. You didn’t have, I mean you did have arguments between, as I say sometimes, the Irish people, used to upset. But once they got in, and got part of it, it was only the fact that there was so many children in xxx, most erm, sort of decent people had three to four childr-, or two to four children, but the Irish used to have eight to ten! And can you imagine what they look like, I mean, and nine times out of ten, the husband, spent most of his money i-, in the Harrow, you know [laughing] when he come home from work, and the poor women didn’t have anything you know to manage on. That I think once you got to know them and realised their you know the sort of lives they live, the kids got used to it because I mean you get somebody that’s got no decent clothes and they’re out with everybody that’s got everything. It’s like today, kids have got these telephones and some kids haven’t. And that’s why they’re pinching them aren’t they?

Yeh I suppose

See there’s no e-, sort of equality is there? In life. So erm, no, that it, you know if you were writing about Barking, but old Barking was really a lovely town. It really was, it was erm, if you had a down day. You’d go in to Barking, and you knew, you’d come back feeling totally different because you meet all people there you knew. You know I mean, no doubt you, I don’t know if you come from this area but if you went to school, you-, all your mates and all that you met everybody at school didn’t you and, “Oh hello, how you doing?” you know, then you’d go and sit and have a cuppa coffee and you, you walk away or tea and you know and you come away, how often do you see people doing that today?

Pf- its probably quite rare, I mean I’m, I’m not actually from London at all so I don’t-..

Where do you come from?

Erm, I’m from the West Country, I’m from sort of Bath, Bristol sort of way-

Where?

Bath, Bristol, yeah

Bath yeah, I’m a, I examine all over there.

Yeah?

I’ve been to Bath, Bristol, I’ve been you name it, I’ve been there [laughing]. And I spent long time down in, I mean I love Paynton, I’ve got some very close friends there, you know, that I made over the years, and erm, bein’ as my legs were going, and everything was going, we thought that we would erm, you know, get erm, bit of the stairs.

Ok

But erm, I’m glad I, I didn’t live in a bungalow because, although it’s agony for me getting up and down the stairs, it’s the only bit of exercise that I get.

Oh right

You see when you get like that, if you got nothing to push you, you don’t do anything do you?

Yeah I suppose it would be quite easy to become quite complacent.

I-,i-,i-, it does, I mean, i-, if I got up now, my whole toe over there would be quite agony, that I try not t-, to do everything all at once [laughing] you have to plan it all, but erm, no it’s erm, we’re not talking much about the park are we?

Sorry

But you know, no that is, you know, that is the situation and that happened in the park everywhere. You see you had the footballers, you had the tennis, the cricket, the you had the weekend footballers, you had the cricket playing. And in there, there was a great big erm, thing that you could play erm, was it where you have the red and white things?

Oh erm, checkers?

Checkers

Drafts

Drafts that’s it! There was a big one and you had a big thing and you used to move it around. That was over near the paddling pool. Then you’d got the tennis courts that always, were always fully in use. And everybody erm, using them. Er hat else did you have? You had such a lot going on in the park. And erm, you know i-, for school d-, outing you’d go in to the park and then you’d study all the trees and everything that was growing there. And then erm, i-, it is all things like that you’d take the stuff out, you know when gets all green in the, when they had the, they had a big erm, boat that used to go round you know, it was like the old fashion, you know, American thing, you know, that used to go..

I’ve got a photo of that actually.

You’ve got a photo have you?

You’ve got to see it

Yeah

Umm [unfolding of paper]Oh..i’ve been carrying these photos around with me, so it’s quite, it’s quite nice for…

Yeah, but, I, if I can find, I mean Alf said he get up in to the thing but we’ve had so, he’s had so much trouble with the bowls club at the moment.

Oh crikey, I don’t know where it’s gone.

What photos are they from? Can I have a look?

I, I’ll show, show you those ones anyway.

Oh the lido, that was lovely, that was our life, oh there it is yeah.

Did you ever go on the, the paddle steamer?

Oh always yes!

Could you tell me about a time that you remember as a child going on the paddle steamer?

Yes! Tuppence.

It was that cheap was it?

Yes!

And when, when, when was the very first time you went on that?

When it first st-, Ohh when it started. I, I can’t remember, eh, at Barking Park 1950, hu-, that was just after the war they did that. Then I think it did started cheap and then the children when on for tuppence so-, and then they think they started charging a shilling. Oh and they decorated it up for all different things. [Twang of laminated paper].

What kind of things were they decorate it for?

Well, if, it be special, like there, look it’s Hong Kong Odeon and you know all different erm, activities that were going on, they would dress up the ferry for it. And then they erm, they got a, a suit of an old erm, Grammer phone on there and they were playing all things you know, down the mississipi and all that.

[laughing]

Oh yeah it was lovely, and ‘cause you had a nice erm, there was a nice errr, the boat, boat thing. A boat erm….[pause] what they call it? Is this the pie, yes, this is part of the front part was it. You can’t see the boat, boating lake, I mean ov-, over there , you know where you come in the front here…

Ok

…down the bottom there was big boating, where they use to keep all the boats down there.

Oh the boat house?

Boat house, beautiful place

Right ok.

Yes.

So did you go boating on the lake quite a lot? Did you take out one of the rowing boats?

Oh yes!

Or anything?

As kids, you’d have the ones that go round, you see this end? Look! This end of the, kmt, oh god, this end of the park, where’s the water, there’s the water here isn’t it. Where at that end where the park was that was the children’s one. And you use to have the, you go in there and you peddle it, peddle all round and not bash in to one another.

[laughing]

Ohhh wonderful time. You know the, what they call ‘em, these things, you know the peddlers isn’t it, you didn’t have the….

Come to think of it, you’d wind it with your arms?

Yes, you didn’t have the, this sort of thing. That was one the big, on the big lake.

Ok

You had all, all those sort of things on the big lake. But in the childrens end, you had childrens, but, and then you’d say “number two comin’ in!” [laughing].

And did people used to go in? Or did they try and stay on a bit longer?

No, no, you’d, you’d, you’d go in until they called your number [laughing] God, I know that face. Don’t think who it is.

I can tell you, unless you want to guess?

Who is it?

It’s Anna Neagle.

That’s it. She lived in Barking.

Yeah

She used to go, she was trained at da-, my dance at, at Maude Well’s dancing school.

Oh right

Yeah maudwell, when she, hav-, I knew, see I knew her face! Terrible when you get old, you can’t remember names. And erm, yes she erm, when she had her, “This Is Your Life”, on there. My teacher that I was trained with, Maude Wells, she was up there with her.

Ok

Yeah, Anna Neagle, she, that’s where she did all her, her dancing training.

Did you ever meet her then?

Yes I did, but she wasn’t anything when I met her, you know when, you, you, ‘cause you’re all in a show together, you know what I mean. Oh this is where they, they grow the flowers. Right lovely, there that’s the year I, I got married. And some of my flowers come from there.

Ok

So you’ve got married in 1948, ‘48, yeah.

Did you know any of the nursery staff at barking, any, any p-, sort of particular characters?

Well, my mother did rather than I you know? Oh, I mean Alf knows them all now.

Hmmm

Bein at the park. [pause] See that p-, 1910, that’d be the year [pause] my mum got married in19-, 1915. Now, there’s the, that’s how it was, the boat lake, look.

Oh right so that’s how you remember it as well?

Yes.

Would you mind describing it to me as remember it for the tape? Is that ok? Or is that?

I can’t, it, it was a place where they had all, things up and the boats were hanging up in there, you know?

Ok

Very difficult to remember things isn’t it? And they had the oars, all ,all, all, all along one wall.[pause] Oh that’s the entrance at the erm, err, Ilford side isn’t it, Ilford lane.

Yes, I think that’s the, the Park Avenue Entrance?

That’s, that’s the, yeah that, er, no, in, in the main, main road.

Oh is it?

Yes, look, it’s the lake.

Oh of course. Yes.

That, that ti-, you know erm, when you go in, you see, you walk round that en-, when you come down Ilford Lane, you go in there and you walk round there and you walk right round and erm, Ohh that was one of our walks. Oh there’s the anti aircraft guns….Have you got any with the, with the erm, on that, the park house thing in it. Oh you haven’t got any photos of the, of all the erm….

That’s actually the…

K-

The only picture I’ve managed to find of any guns in Barking Park, which is why I’m so interested in what you can remember of it. Yeah there were quite a few there.

Yeah

And, and how many would you say there were do you think, approximately?

Ohh, I’d say about 4, 5, but as i-, I’ll tell you what, when I was, I was, I was going from, as I say, our house was burnt because they, they used to go, because the guns were there you see.

mmhmm

And they dropped all the, incentries along erm, [kmt], Longbridge road.

Right

So, my, my mum was teaching the piano there, you see, and erm, all, all, I can see it now. Beautiful orange carpet, er white furniture she had and orange. And all I can remember is the lovely white and orange. My beautiful room, the bay room, bay window and being dragged out of it because it was all a fire. You know, it, that’s all I can remember much about that.

Yeah.

I can remember this beautiful orange, orange carpet in, it was thick and lovely you know. Errr, ‘cause my father had been err, working with somebody in Faircroft Hotel in London. And all this erm, stuff was all over. Hmm, he offered it, you now, my Dad to buy, my Dad said oh we’re moving in to a new house that’d be great. You know. And we had this lovely, and everything was so light, and so clear and mum had done lovely curtains you know xxx xxx, beautiful! It was orange, it was sort of, it was orange yeah, I did sunny, to di-, you can see it in your eyes, but you can’t describe it.

[Laughing]

It really was beautiful, with all the white as well. You know. But erm, no the guns were there, and then the erm, and then they had er lorries, ‘cause they had lorries with Ack, Ack guns on the back, did you know that?

Oh no I didn’t.

And they run along Longbridge Road. [Pause] We had erm, yeah.

That’s really interesting

I think i-, i-, oth-, other than, c-, if-,there, can you get any of the papers? The old papers that..?

No, but that is, it would be my next port of call I think.

I mean, as I say, what I’m telling you may not be, a hundred percent, only as I say saw it.

Yes.

At that time.

Which is what I’m interested in, so that’s good.

Yeah you see, when, when I, I, we, erm, when I, we came back ‘cause my mother had to come back for something, or the other you know, and I never, I was always with my mum. You know because my brother was a, in the navy, and my dad was on the, you know, in the airfo-. He wasn’t in the air force but he was on all the air force stations. And erm, I came back, and we stayed with my Granddad. In my Granddad’s house in erm, St Paul’s road. And cause you know, there was a big Arwight’s there.

Yeah.

Did you know? The big Arwight’s? Yeah. And that, ever since they’ve moved from there because there’s a special well. Did you know in, Arwight’s…

I didn’t know that

Oh I went in and saw it all and they just tellin’ me all about, ‘cause I was just nosey.

[laughing]

And this well was a special well and it made the erm, as why the er, Arwight’s erm, lemonade was really super. Because of the, what ever was in this well, but you know the, all the things that were in the water in the well really made it superb. Stu-, I mean, I, I’m sure if you, you know, got any other old person in, in Barking they’d tell you all the, you know all the same. And then when we first moved there the, the horses used to come out, when we, you know, I used to come visit Nan and Granddad. They um, horses used to come out with all the erm, Arwight’s you know, all the, all the things on it….

Oh ok

All the barrels and the thing, you know. They were bringing out of there [laughing].

That’s lovely.

That was in St Paul’s road. Uh, so as I say, as I, I was telling you a story, when we’re living there, I used to get the bus because I, my education had been so, bad, my, I had got in to the Royal Ballet, it no-, it wasn’t the Royal Ballet that, it was the erm, err, oh god, can’t think it was, find out where, if the Royal Ballet was before [laughing]. It was the wells, wells something or the other, I can’t remember now. And I had got err, a scholarship in to it, you see, in to the ballet.

Ok.

And erm, err, but my Dad said, I had to have, if I wanted to go in to the ballet school, I had to have, erm, err training, because if I was made injured, I would have to be able to earn money. You know and live sort of thing, ‘cause you don’t know, i-, what the injuries gonna be do you? In the ballet, you know in the old days it was, it wasn’t, there was no erm, you know you musn’t do this and you musn’t do that in the old days [laughing]. All the scenery fell down and nobody worried, they’d be, got, got on with it, you know. But erm, no, so my dad said I got to do short hand typing and katometer, so of course when I came back to London and I was doing exams, erm, errr, my mum put me in to the err, Abbey, err, not-, South East Tech to do short hand typing and Kantom-, kantometer! I didn’t do it for long mind you. I mean I could, you know could write, I could write all that in short hand once upon a time.

[Laughing]

But erm, not today.

I could probably be able to do with, you know, could do with that couldn’t i? Those skills.

[Laughing] I know, you would, you see in those days, you always managed that you, you learnt something and did something that you could go to work. Whereas today is how can I get out everything? And [laughing] majority, not saying you. But any how erm, [clears throat] and ga-, we were er, friend of mine, Pauline and I we were going to the South East Tech and as we were driving down in the bus, all the guns went off at the siren had gone. ‘cause nothing stopped when the siren went you know, everything carried on. Life carried on and all these guns were bah, bah, bah, bah, we jumped out our skins! [Laughing] came past the park and th- [laughing] we got up the road, there was another one coming down the road, bahuhuhuhuh [laughing]

Oh crikey

Oh you [laughing]

I think I would have been terrified

[laughing] yeah, but you see the point of it is what you had to be careful of, was that, if there was anything, you know, machine gun an- or anything, it was all the shells, also, you see, one of them hit you they they’re burning hot, but erm, you know, you could get quite damaged you know [laughing] with just ho--, but no it erm, you was frightened, but you got on with it. It, it, I know, you know it sounds so strange, I mean like, later on in life, in the d-, I used to go and, errr, I worked with erm, you know, a crowd of erm, oh what’s in band, little man erm, [sings] oh to be la da dad a dee a buzzee bee. Oh what’s his name?... Arthur Askey.

Ah ok.

And erm, we were doing the, going round entertaining the people in the undergrounds. You know, and erm, it, it, it was a just wonderful spirit. The you know, all the people used to do all this. Go and, ‘cause you, you know, all the undergrounds were all beds.

Yeah, shelters basically

All double beds, you know erm, all people there and some people sleeping , down on the floors. It, there were just solid. And then, i-, if, ever night when they stopped the trains, some of ‘em, even lay down in the, on the line![laughing] I d-,

Crikey.

When I first saw that I thought my god, they’ll kill, ‘cause that’s the electricity [laughing].

Don’t be rolling in to that in the night. Do you?

No, no but they shut off the electricity I think over night, and you got all the kids running up and down, you know, I mean today, with all this, you musn’t do this, they musn’t do that, you know..

Yeah.

I think that, that is what is killing this country off. I really do. ‘cause there’s no discipline, no nothing. I mean, you know, if gr-, “If I told you Johnny to come here once!” Wallop, wallop, wallop, wallop! “Now sit down there and you move off back seat and I’ll kill you!”[Laughing]. You know [laughing]….you look, you look aww, poor little soul you think yeah, you know. He’s only playing with all the other kids!

Yeah

But that is how they were, weren’t they?

Yeah

I mean if todays children had a bit of that, they wouldn’t be like they are, would they? You know I mean, I know there’s a lot of people that go right over the top. But at the same time, i-, it….

Needs to be a happy medium, doesn’t there.

Yes. I mean, you know, t-, she didn’t hurt him, she was just, you know walloping him up here you know.

[laughing]

[laughing] xxxx I could see her fear because, he was right near the lines. But erm, you know, it’s a different world. Oh I wish I had some of these. But as I say we went by there and the guns were bahbahbahbahbahbahbah [laughing].

Were there barrage balloons actually in Barking Park as well then? Can you remember?

I can’t remem-, I, I think there were, over, over a bit

Ok

but there was one in erm

Denham

In Blake Avenue

Oh Blake Avenue

At the end of Blake Avenue, yeah. Although, they were all over the place. They were oh, oh, where ever there was a bit of green, you know they had to have the green to, to put all the equipment and everything on. And erm, you know they, I know there definitely was one at the, at the end of the road ‘cause it come down in our garden, number 19 [laughing]

Do you know how many troops were stationed in Barking Park? Could you give an approximate estimate?

Yes there was, I don’t know, I really don’t know.

Ok,ok.

You know because erm, parts of it you couldn’t go in to the park.

Right ok.

You know where, wherever they were, but as, as I remember you couldn’t, erm…There was lots and lots of things that were out of bounds because of the danger isn’t it?

Mmmm

But I mean when you’ve got the bombers coming over, and the noise, wrrm, wrrm, wrrrm, wrrrm, you know the noise was unbelievable, and then when you hear a bomb go brrzzzzzzz, and the xxx are comin’ this way [laughing]. I’ll tell you something really funny. That I, we, I, we always laugh at it. In, I was about 14 I think and my Aunties come down from Wales, because my granddad had died. And my Granddad in St Paul’s Road, wouldn’t have a dug out in the Garden, he had one of these errr, indoor erm, things, what did they call them, they were like a, a big metal steel table, table thing.

Ok

Erm, it was indoor erm, air raid shelter. It was, it was, like this, big like that, err, at the bottom there, there was a sort of a spring and then up here, was big, in the corners, there was big thick metal corners there. On each side and then when you got in there was erm, met-, er, at the top here where you, you’d get sort of all the metal mesh sort of thing. And then when you got in there, there was all mesh that you could push up, so that nothing would fall in there, if the house got hit. Well my Granddad, had died you see, and my Auntie came up from Wales and she’d, she’d not seen any of the, any bombing or anything. ‘cause where they come from, Aberystwyth, they, they hadn’t been anything you see. And erm, she came there and she was as white as a ghost cause the air raid had gone and she said to erm, mum, “well lets go in to the thing” she said “Well Dad you know, Dads on the top of it, they’d laid his coffin on the top.” So any way she said “Well Dad never did us any harm when he was alive, lets go, you know, let us get under there.” So any way, we get unt-, undter-, in to the, you know, in to the, the shelter thing under there and there’s my mum, my Auntie Gladys and me sitting there and, and the bombing was really heavy [laughing]. My Auntie was nearly dying with it, I mean poor soul, I really feel sorry for her. And then I started laughing, I couldn’t stop laughing when I heard these bomb, and she said “Oh Jay” she said, “Why you laughing? Is that laughing matter xxxx? Terrible!” she said. How can you say, daren’t laugh,” So I said “Well Auntie Glady’s I’m just thinking, if the house gets the bomb, down, here and you know, the house is smashed up,” I said “When the wardens come in, they’ll start digging and looking for us, they’d say “ Aye it’s alright here mate! They’re already in their coffins [laughing]

[laughing]

[laughing] and My Auntie didn’t think it was funny! [Laughing]

It’s amazing the kind of comedy that runs through your head xxxx

[laughing] that’s what I’m saying [laughing] I just sort of, if, I mean could you have seen them oh you know digging out somewhere and oh mate we’ve found a coffin here we don’t have to worry much here they’re already in, in ‘em. I just thought it was funny!

Yeah

That’s my sense of humour. My mum was crying with laughter and my auntie was crying because she thought it was a terrible thing [laughing]

Oh bless her.

It shows you, how terrible b-, the Williams can be you see.

[laughing]

And er, no but it was bad, it really was bad...I mean and another thing happened in Barking was erm, I can’t remember the names of the roads, it was it, Gascoigne road, and then off Gascoigne road it was, I don’t know if it was Bythen street or what have you, but as you get down St Paul’s Road, you’re in Gascoigne Road and then if you cross over where the catholic church is now you know, on the other side of the road they’re all houses and then be-, at the back of them there was another lot of houses, and I can’t think of the name of the road it was. Well a land mine dropped on these houses, and it was the biggest bang that you could ever hear, the land mines when they dropped the land mines. Well when we erm, got out in the morning you know, in the morning everybody got out to see what damage was done. And of course people were coming down and they said “corr you’re ought to see, I can’t think of the name of the roads. And erm, it said oh it’s terrible, so of course we went down there to see what had happened and when we got down there, you know, it sort o-,start standing on the sort of road where the erm cat-, opposite to the catholic chur-, you know the catholic school is now. Over where these houses were there was five, was seven h-, seven was a name, er no I think there was five. The upstairs part had been lifted up, turned round, and dropped down again. So that the people lived that end were now livin’ that end, and the people that end [laughing] they just, the bedrooms of the houses, and er, I, I’ve asked everywhere if anybody had got a photo of that. Because it was some, you see didn’t have televisions and that, that showed you those sort things in those day, but I can remember, I was fascinatin’, I had to keep going looking at it. And I thought well, how the people gonna sort out where, where they're upstairs xxxxx, but no...

It must have been quite a sight

Oh yeah, I mean ter-, that was terrible and another one, another land mine dropped on, down near scruttons farm

Ok

There was another landmine down there but, that was something that, it was so rare, so weird that i-, it just stayed in your mind. And I can remember one night I used to da-, I was dancing up at the stage door canteen, you know up in erm, Charing Cross. And erm, nine times out of ten we had to walk home you know but we’d walk, start...

Xxxx Charing Cross

No you’d start walking you see and erm, there’s always err taxis running back to their home or, or busses running back to the esta-, and they would take you so far down the road and then they’d be th-, somebody else, and my friend she lived, erm, the other side in you know, in, in North Street. And I was going back to St Pauls Road. And erm, so finally we’d get somebody and we’d just have to walk that last little bit you know. But it, it was fantastic, the way, you know, the bombing and everything. And when you come out. We came out of there, this night and the whole of the Thames was a fire.

Wow

I mean I was only young then. Because erm, [mumbling], I dunno if I was thirteen and fourteen, I know you know and world wars had, had, was putting on this show, but the whole of the, you know, it was all, you couldn’t believe the amount of, of damage [car horn] that was done you know and before that, the whole of the err Thames had been af-, you know, a fire. And of course everything in there was all the storage, the food, and everything, and you know we really was badly damaged d’you know, that is why I’m so sad now, that Newham, and all those places that really were the “East Enders”, that really, really suffered in the war. They’ve all had to move out because these people have come in and pushed them out. And I think that is so cruel! And now when you hear that they're putting up shear law down there, you know people of my age are sick with it because they’re, that, all those sort of people, all from there, down to Barking and Dagenham really, is where the lot, you know really copped to it really badly. ‘Cause they used to follow the Thames along you see. And then when they had finished bombing, if, when they got, got out, they got down to near Southend up, like Hockley where we were, that is when they used to empty all their bombs on the, on the farm land.

[Right]

They wouldn’t go back with any bombs in ‘cause Hitler might be counting them [laughing]

So you wouldn’t, you know wouldn’t even been safe out there then, really

Well it was, yes it really was because, there were only landing on soft earth

Right ok

Majority, they dropped them there or in the sea you see it erm, err it err, and also the times that the, them, then they come the Doodlebugs. I think Barking had a few you know, bombs in, in, in Barking Park. I’m sure they did. I, I seem to reme-, it was, I know there was one night when they just dropped loads and loads of incendiaries to get all the place of fire so that they could see where they were going....But erm, no and then after the war there was all, every road had a, a party. And then after that, you know, Barking began to pick up and swing and that is the years, you know when we had all these wonderful carnivals, and we’ve had some lovely people dow-, have you, have you read all the different people we had, we had Diana Dors who wanted to go, ‘cause we got stuck up with the traffic, she wanted to get out of the taxi and go home [laughing] and old Maisie, that is Jack erm, oh what’s his name, Jack what’s er name’s? Wife. She used to get back in there, you’re bein’ paid for this [laughing]

[laughing]

Oh and then we, we, we had some lovely men as well you know, I get, you know once upon a time I could’ve to you all the names and everything but as you get old

Yeah

They all get the names, I can sit here of and evening tonight, I’ll sit here and I’ll think of ‘em all ....

[laughing]

...and I’ll sit, have to sit and write them all out, because, when you’re talking, you can see everything, you can see them clearly, but names, just don’t come. And I was co-, complaining the other day to the doctor, you know saying about, how was it, you know, I can remember everything that sort of happened and what have you and nine times out of ten you can remember the different names and what have you people. And I said then, another day when you’re wanting to tell somebody something, you can’t remember them. He said no, he said all your years and all the things you’ve done xxx, he said it, you got to remember brain is a computer

Right

And what happens is you get to your age is blocked. He said it’ll only come out when it wants to [laughing] so, so there we are but no we had some wonderful, wonderful people, well known people down there.

Could you tell me about that occasion where you won at the carnival? Could you describe that for the tape please?

Oohh I, I g-, I’ve got photos here of ....

Ooohh I’d love to see them

Yeah, I ‘ve got some look, we did, we did a snows, erm, a winter wonderland scene

Ok

Erm, I, I will find you the photos, I’ve got all those. Erm, my mu-, all the mum’s with-, you know the plastic xxxx, all the plastic that they, they’d send stuff in you know the stuff. Well they had all that and made it all in to er, er what’s er name and then where all children in red and silver, you know err, xxx things you know and capes and everything in, in like winter wonderland. It was such a beautiful and a f-, and a snowman at the top. A child you know in a white out-, I will find that for you because I have got that. If not I have got it on, on a, on a er em tape.

Ok

Erm, you know an old movie tape. Erm, if I, if I can get up in, you know get erm, to get up in to the loft. I mean his, his legs haven’t been too bad, and he got to climb, he, I’ve been waiting actually for our lad to come down here, young Aiden. And he’ll get under and get everything out for me. And erm, I more likely have got, got there with, we did some wonder-, his first of all, it used to start from the Russian waters, that was the Carnival you know the where it first started. Then it went from there, down to erm, Mauvers Lane in the Mauvers Lane you know that way.

Mmmhmm

And then it finished up in Maysbrook Park and it used to come right the way round. And I’ll tell you what, there was hundreds of people, you know Barking was absolutely loaded with people on the carnival day. Was such a lot of people you know about and doing so, then Tommy H-, Holland would have the Fair, you know Tommy Holland do you?

It’s a name that’s been mentioned to me a few times...

Yeah, he, he

Did you know Tommy Holland personally?

Very well yeah, very well

Could you describe him to me?

He, he was a big man ....and err, he fough-, if Tottenham was playing at home, he wouldn’t be there on Carnival afternoon.

[laughing]

He’d been in Tottenham, him and his son. Tommy and young tommy. No they were lovely be-, and they used to have their caravan in beautiful big caravan in the erm, park. Really lovely. And they used to do a lot of ho-, hospitality there you know, we’ll go and have a drink and something to eat and something you know. It’s lovely. Erm....ssss

That, that time you were telling me about, about earlier when you won ten shillings.

Oh that’s when I was eight

Erm, yeah

I get...in

What was that for? Could you tell me about that?

Err, I can’t remember exactly what the year was....I mean I don’t know if it was that one but there was a, they were putting up, I think it wa-, down, the thing there was then, I’m sure it was. Erm, it was just er, a talent competition.

Ok

And erm....

Can you remember what you did?

Yes, erm, [sings] on the good ship lollipop

[laughing]

[pause]

One of them yes, I’m sure that was the one. And the other one, that I, when, when you was [sings] in my sweet little alice blue garden, that’s another one, I won for [laughing]

[laughing]

[sings] Dedidididi down, I’m so proud, I’ve got no voice left, I was shouting at the kids all those years. Erm..

And where, where would they hold the presentation ceremony? For the prizes?

I it, on the, on the th-, on the thing. In the thing.

Oh in, in the actual band stand its self...oh ok

That stand its self. Yes every, I mean there were people singing, there were people telling jokes, and there was all different things you know. It was all, all d-, er, I don’t know what this special occasion was, for when I got the erm, ten shilling note. I, I d-, I ca-, really can’t remember. I know people used to do things and you just go, I mean, I did it there and then I went down to Southend er later on you know, bit late on in life and er, I, I won there as well, I got another ten shillings [laughing]

Oh really

And what did I sing there? I remember? Erm, Oh god. What’s the one I did down there? Ohhh it was an American song, I know. I can’t remember. It will come to me. But erm, no its erm, as I say, that was at the time of that erm, you know and that was. I think that’s so gorgeous to see that. And that was beautiful, that house. and it was always kept so beautiful and the gardens were absolutely wonderful. And that was the park we go-, you know the head of the park used to live there.

Erm, is actually the, the photograph we gotten in here, of erm, Les Taylor. [cough] excuse me sorry, Les Taylor who worked in the Nurseries. He actually lived in the house in 1950

That’s it, that’s what I’m saying, yeah..... that’s lovely, and you see Maysbrook Park also had one very similar.

Oh but they had a boat house as well did they?

Pardon?

They had a boat house as well at Maysbrook Park.

Yes, they had a nice mays-, yeah.

Ok

Yeah, but I mean there was more trees and that at down there when, and you see they erm, the, what's the name boat, use to stand just there.

Ok

I think actually, after a while, erm the karate, or somebody use to took over the boat houses and did, did something in them. I did, is it..

I, I had, I had heard..

I’d heard of that.

...of that yeah.

Yeah.

They used to have karate lessons or something

Yes, that’s right, yes. And this used to be packed solid.

I was going to ask you about the Lido actually, can you, can you remember the first occasion that you went there?

Well when I was a child, when I was a child yes, my brother took there, and, and he took me in the water, and when my mother arrived, she’d drag me out

[laughing]

‘ cause bein as I was a dancer, and doing ballet, I wasn’t allowed to swim, ride a bike, swim ride a bike or horse ride.

How come?

‘cause you’re using all the muscles that you don’t want to build.

Ahh ok.

They infect.... I know that man....[pause]...He’s chased us away, but I’m sure xxxx than that, it’s a wonderful. The old lido.... you see that was the children’s paddling pool.

Err, yes.

If you went round there, us mums used to sit round there with the toddlers you see and they could go in there and be there all day long.

And the paddling pool was free, wasn’t it?

Yeah that one was free, u paid to go in there. And also you, you’d only got mum’s and young children all round there, you know, and erm, in there, it was, everybody dashing around like mad. I, I don’t, I don’t remember seeing boats like that, I reckon that was specially done for her because they used to be a little rowing boats.

I think somebody else said to me that they must of brought in that dinghy just for that occasion.

That yeah because

Because they couldn’t remember

No, no

Dinghies

They was all wooden, rowing boats. Yeah. It...

So of course you would have only been two years old during the charter celebrations wouldn’t you?

’31, yeah, I’d only been young.

So you probably don’t remember the charter celebrations?

No, I bet my family wills, all took part in it.....[pause].... see, you can’t see the gardens here very well can you. This was 31wasn’t it, that was before all the beautiful gardens were down wasn’t it?

Yes

And there is something built there then isn’t there?

I think a lot of the structures in that picture are probably temporary ones just for the celebrations.

Yeah just for that day.

That was when it was made a borough when the King come down.

That’s right yes.

Ha! Got photos, don’t know if I’ve got it, or my Aunties taken it. I‘ve got a photo of my, my mum, my nan and Granddad, with the ki-, you know along by the King.

Oh really?

And when the mayor yes.

That’s wonderful, I’d love to see them if you’ve got...

I don’t know if I, you see my Auntie, my Auntie fi-, died, my, my c-, Nan and Granddad, my mum’s mum and dad. She h-, they had eight children.

Wow

My dad’s family they’d eight or nine children. And erm, the point of it is, my Auntie eth-, Auntie b-, Mabel, erm, and Auntie Floss, they were twins. And they were going to Australia and she wanted to show or borrow them, borrow them, to show somebody that had, from Barking, over in erm, Perth.

Oh, ok.

So she took them back and promised then to send, bring them back the next time, but of course. You lend some things to people you don’t get them back do-, that is the main trouble with you know hanging on to things, you loan them to people. But what else went? There was other things that went on in, in the, you know, all the schools used to go there to have their racing.

Oh

All the lines would be down, you know, on, on, when you see, you use to have your schools racing day. And then you used to have all the schools er, and an inter thing in between all the schools, d’you know what I mean.

Like an inter schools sort of thing.

Inter school...yeah. The children that won, there, say like if I, I won when I was at Ripple, well then it be all the schools. I, I’d go in to that one for Ripple School in to the park.

Ok.

It, it was like a, I don’t know what you call it. A special day. Wish my mum was here because she could tell you so much more.

[laughing]

You know, I mean, she, she runs such a lot

Mmmm

Whereas I was always busy working or something, d’you know what I mean? Mum and, and the whole family were all sort of tied up in it, some way or the other my, my mum, as I say our lounge at, at my, you know, my mum, was always laid out, with all chairs all round it because the people comin’ in for meetings for the Labour party.

I heard, erm, someone told me that in erm, I think it was 1956 the, all the trade unions and the area had a big meeting in Barking Park.

That’s right.

Do you remember anything like that ever happening?

I do, there was several things that happened like that.

Oh right ok.

There was...

Actually in Barking Park its self?

Yes, I think there was..[pause]...i sort of remember it, remember it and you know, erm, see my Dad didn’t work down here, so that, I think it was all the, you know the Ford people and everybody from all that had a big erm, I d-, Alf wasn’t there in, yes he was there in the 1950s, he was at Fords. He worked, he started at Briggs and then they, Ford’s took over the whole of it..

Ok

...he was in the office there. yeah erm....

And thats

Is that...

Briggs Motor company isn’t it?

Pardon?

Its c-, it was called Briggs Motor Company

Briggs Motor Company, yes and then that went over to erm, Fords took ‘em over or because Briggs made all the erm, they did all the covering, I don’t know what they did. Don’t ask me.

[laughing]

I d-, I used to go in and out you see, ‘cause I was so busy then, you know, teaching and, and I use to go round and choreograph shows you see.

Oh ok

So that, I was so busy that I really...

Didn’t pay that much attention to cars [laughs]

No

Weren’t that interested.

No, well, that is the point, isn’t, you erm, you hear, my da-, hear, hear it but it, when you’ve got a, a brain that’s buzzing with this, that and the other you, you...

Other things you find, you find more...

Yeah you’d....

...interesting...

.....It don’t, it don’t click. As I say, I, I can hear it click but erm, that’s as far as I ..

I understand..

You know I...

My husband works in computers and you can imagine that goes in...

Ohhh

...one ear and out the other with me so ....

Does he? Whereabouts does he work?

Um, somewhere in central London just down by Euston I think it is where he works, but

Ohhh

I don’t get computers....

I’ve got...

..so errrr....

..I’ve got, I’ve got a computer up there and it’s a...

You’re doing better than I am.[Laughing]

Just that, ohh yes, I use all the computer, do all the minutes and everything on the computer but erm, you know, er I’ve just got a new one. Just come in and it’s got to be connected to xxxx.

Oh right

I’m dreading it, it w-, we put it on once

Should I send him round [laughing]

Yeah, ehh, they put erm, he put it on, they put it on and b- eh, I’d just before, erm, you know, the, we close for the summer. Beca-, the centre we, we close for the month of August

Ok

Because, most of the things that we run are elderly people and they're minding the children during the summer holidays arn’t they you see, so we don’t get them during the day. A lot of the evening act-, like St Johns and all those people, they are, they’re still in. But erm, err, the erm, you know that is the point. We did-, we don’t, we don’t get them. So, the old brain, though, doesn’t err, really work, what was I telling you about?

Xxxx,

Erm...

Sorry I was just gonna ask you erm, you, you have children of your own? Yes?

That’s my daughter

Oh right

Our daughter, she, that photo was taken a week after that photo was taken she died.

Ohh very sorry.

She’d got cystic fibrosis. And my son is, shes, she’s just holding his hand in er, in xxxx sister’s wedding and err, his er, BT director.

Ok. Did you ever take him an-, both you-, you know your children down to the park to, to play?

Oh they were always down there yess, yeah. Ian did lots swimming down there, they wanted to use him for, for swimming but errm, my son would not do anything [laughing] they wanted him to do.

[laughing]

And Lin was to, I mean Lin loved it there because erm, you know with her bad chests, you know and everything, sh- she could breathe in the park with all the trees and all that yeah. No, I mean, I’ve done lots of things, cabarets and that in the park you know for different things.

Could you, could you give me an example of one of those cabarets?

Erm, yeah, erm, what did, what was it for? It was for a special occasion, we did, we did some, number, I can’t remember now, what it was for. And then you see, we did it once, there and then err, all of a sudden it was taken to Dagenham town show.

Oh ok

And they did all the you know where we started something here, somebody, I think it was erm, Jack, Jack actually, pinched it. What was his name Jack Thomas.

Ok

I think he pinched it for the Dagenham Town show.

Oh no

So that, that afterwards they tried to keep the Barking Carnival totally different to the Dagenham Tow-, Town Show, and I think, we did a cabaret, where did we do it? I don’t know, we had a stage put up and everything. It was qu-, it was good, and they had some, a couple of comedians come down. I don’t know, i-, if I go through photos, it’ll all come, come back but, no doubt people in barking will remember it. But it was in during the carnival week, you know Carn-, Carnival week. I mean you had the carnival on the Saturday, and then the fair and that was all there for the week and then the last day. They’d have a, erm, a fireworks display.

Ok

Did you know that?

I didn’t know that no.

They used to, yeah, years ago. And that, that was the finish of the, and then the, the following day the erm, what's er name work, oh left.

Ok

Tommy and all his apparatus left. He, he was a great chap. He lived in erm, near Isle of Sheppy.

Yes

I’ve been to his house. Yeah. Hmmm

Ok, Hmm, what about with erm, obviously when you first met your husband, erm in sort of late 40s..

He comes from, he comes from Islington.

Oh right so do-, you never took him to Barking Park?

Oh yes! I’ve got loads of photos of us

Oh right

Whe-, when we got engaged, walking along with the dog [laughing]

Actually in Barking Park.

Yeah, I’ll, I’ll find it for you, yeah, eh, erm...

So, is that the kind of place that...

Oh I know! The round table, they were the boys that did a lot of work at Dagenham, at Barking erm, carnival. And they did lots of things in the park, the round table. They were excellent.

Ok [pause].

But no, b-, by, and I mean, you, you, they’ve been some nice erm, you know, they’ve replaced haven’t they, all the erm, cenotaph there thing. Sort of thing, all the names of my-, I've got two uncles on that, Williams. You know on the people that died in the first world war.

Oh right

There’s all their names up there. but then, nobody’s put anybody that died here in, in the last war.

Oh really?

Yes, that is the first world war

Ok

‘cause I w-, as I say, I’ve got two William, uncle, Williams, uncle Horace and uncle Ralf-, will up on the erm, up on that new thing, and d’you know what? Alf, ‘cause you know Alf’s all tied up with the Bowling. People have come over there, all, especially the black people, like to go there and have all their wedding photos taken by that, by that erm, I call it the cenotaph, ‘cause it, you know, it, it looks like somewhere, it’s special doesn’t it and the cenotaph is all xxxx, but no, they, they come, and now, they drive up and just think they’re can walk in the bowls club and have their photo taken on the green!

Crikey! [laughing]

Oh it’s a nightmare, it’s a, but is idiotic what’s happening now in that park.

What is it, about it, that’s idiotic do you think in your opinion?

Well, I mean, I’m hearing it all the time. In the community centre, you see, some of the people there go tennis, and some you know, xxxx they go cricket or something. And the husbands go bowling, a lot of them go bowling.

Mmmhmmm

Well, they’ve got that car park. I, I haven’t been to see it, so I don’t know what it is, what it’s like.

Ok

You see, you come in to park and you just go in to the car park now, as Alf tells me.

Mmhmm

Well, now they’ve erm, that car park erm, if they’re, if they’re going there bowling, they can’t get in there. because so many people, come down, leave their car there all day long, and go, walk up to the station, no, no cost is there.

Crikey, erm.

An-, and it-, you know, I, I just cannot understand why nobody has done anything about it. I mean in our centre, I’m hearin’ that all the time.

I mean, I can only assume that eventually they’ll get wise to it and either put up a meter or something...

Oh it’s idiotic, ma-, allowin’ it to do.

Yeah

I mean if the people, I mean at-, you’ve listened, I don’t know how much it is, I know they’re paying a fortune....

Hmmm

....for that hor-, for, for that green. You know, so surely they could have a Barking, they’ve always er, you know, parked there free, and I mean when they get people that come from here there and everywhere, wherever they go. They don’t have to park. They give ‘em a stick it, to stick on their car. That they are, you know, with the, the Bowls Club. Why the hell can’t Barking Park give to it, anybody that is, belongs to the Club, like the Tennis or somewhere, that they get a sticker to put on their car.

It b-, it’s a very good idea, it’s certainly sounds like xxx....

And then they would know, if, if everybody in, in that park has, has got a s-, I mean if, if your coming just for the day to play in the park, there’s a massive big errr, car park at the other end.

Yeah

Why can’t they park there like we all used to? And leave the other one for the bowling and the ou-, and the tennis, and the people that playing cricket. I mean you, you try, you get a b-, the bags that they have to carry with four heavy ba-, and they're all elderly people.

Yeah

It’s idiotic, these people that have built b-, Barking, they're doing nowt for. Absolutely nowt for. All they're doing is from or everybody new that’s come in. And people that have never paid a penny to ke-, to, to get this town like it has been. I, I, I cannot understand what they're trying to do. You kn-, I think, eh, the, the, they’ve got a thing or ‘nother ‘em whatsa name puttin’ up arn’t they?

The er what sorry?

Erm, you know, the old... Didn’t they knock it down? The erm, you know, wh-, the bandstand?

Yes the bandstand was moved to make way for the oohhh, erm...

The car park

I think yeah, I think mi-, might be the car park.

The old car park that they used to have.

Right ok.

Now once again, there was something that was great to people. Why didn’t they put it somewhere in the middle of the green or somewhere, where people could all sit round and they can have a concert there. They have got no imagination! And it a picked a pound a pinch is bloody men!

[Laughing]

Honest to God they’ve got no, men have got no imagination whatsoever. And, and from what I hear, from all the people, from the centre, that there’s a man there that i-, is, is, is a yes man! And he w-, he will not, you know, i-, he’ll just do what these people tell them. You don’t do that.

No, I did hear a fabulous....

You listen to the people

Sorry

Go on..

I was just gonna say, I did hear a fabulous idea the other day actually, I was interviewing someone for this project and he suggested rebuilding the bandstand on one of the islands on the lake and have them sort of playing music to all the boaters and things, and I thought that was a really lovely idea.

That’d be lov-, lovely idea, yeah, but erm..

I don’t think it’ll happen, [laughing] but it’s a nice idea

No, no I don’t think it’ll happen because erm, be mushy out there isn’t it, and they’re not terribly big.

No, no there is that

I mean it used to have all the ducks and everything there, they were gorgeous, with so many beautiful ducks and swans on that river. Are they still got them, I haven’t been there for ages.

Erm well I think obviously they left fo-, wh-, when they drained the lake, but now the lake filled back up again, I’m sure they’ll s-, they’ll soon come back. But someone was telling me they used to be quite a lot of swans there. And now..

Oh they’re beautiful

...there’s erm, more geese or something than there are swans.

Yeah, the swans were beautiful.

Were they?

Oh Beau-, and I’ll tell you what, in the childrens one they used to have swan boats..

Oh

... that used to sit in and you know the mums could go in with th-, for the little children, but yeah, and you say in the swan they used to have b-, swan boats, you know, with the, with the thing that you wind [laughing]. I sat there for ages, by the time you finished your arms ached like hell![laughing]

[laughing]

And you used to keep bashing in to one another. You know.

So was like bumper cars or something

Yes, yes ,yes, but as I say, it was just the end of the, it was all cut all, you know, whatsa name Don, you couldn’t go in to the big, I don’t know if it was more shallow or anything, ‘cause when you’re young you, you can’t remember those sort things can you?

[laughing]

I mean it’s deep any way if you’re, you’re young that erm, yeah, er, no, it, there was as I say, there was one for the children there. And also, if y-, you know when we got older and we were go-, we used to go round and on the road, you know, and they were nice. But er, the older ferry when they used to have people you know singing and what have you, you know you get a crowd on there, that can be great, great deal of fun going round on that. Was Barking Park quite a popular with courting couples that I know we touched on it briefly.

Oh yes, always, yes.

Yeah.

Yes and erm, I b-, it was a meeting place with the dog walkers you know and that, that have you. And all the, decent people, you know, would clear up after them. I mean many people, I mean Alf’s come home many time with a bag full but erm, you see there was no where to put it, in that, in, in, I don’t know if they’ve got any where now, that they can bins that they can put dogs mess in.

Oh, think they do have erm..

Have they got it now?

They’ve got bins specifically for that.

Yeah, ‘cause I know at Maysbrook now they have got them now.

Yeah

But erm, No it, it err, you know m-, Barking Park, it was such a, a lovely, lovely park. I mean Maysbrook was always bigger and more erm, you know it’s got a big lake and it’s got all that, but it was much more, re-, it wasn’t so angelic as Barking Park. I suppose it was because such a lot went on in Barking Park for me. But err, I don’t know. It’s er, it is, it is a lovely park with the trees and when you think the years that they’ve been there and as I say if you could find a photo of the old park people that used to walk round there in their brown and green. I mean they looked absolutely smart with all their buttons and everything there you know, but it really was nice, but then in the past, I mean, Alf, with the bowling green, they’ve had all the bowling green done and then somebody had come in there and put all the, you know Asians would come in and cut all the grass up, put in no crosses you know, this is hell, hell, hell, hell and put in all their, you know their erm, Pakistani things there.

Right

And i-, Alf asked why the hell are you doing this, you know, your British, why are you doin-, we’re not British they shout and poor Alf, we’re pakis, he said where were you born? So he said in Ilford, so he said you’re not a Paki, you said you’d, you say to them, you’re English

Hmmm

You should appreciate and be careful what you’re doing, but ma-, majority of the trouble appeared to come from, you know, Ilford side

Right

But there has been, they’ve gone down there and they’ve dug everything up and they had all electric wiring put, put round. The other day, after one of the, you know mi-, millers, they’re supposed to look after the park so well.

Hmmm

And the er, a lot of the wires were pulled out from the, from the electric, you know things to stop the erm, foxes. ‘cause the foxes get on to the green and dig big holes. And it’s not happening when they’re playing with the bowls.

[Laughing]

I don’t know, I just sit back and listen to that, but you know, when I hear it here and then I hear it down the centre, I think “Oh god, they all are a bit fired up here about this” you know.

Yeah

But erm, no it’s a....

Do you think you’ll go down there when they have the grand reopening, down there?

Oh yes!

And all ther facilities?

If I can walk, yes.

Yeah

I will be, yes. When is it supposed to be opening?

Erm, I’m not a hundred per cent sure, ithought it was sometime early next year. Erm, but as...

What for the Olympics?

..I said t-, er-

They got a hell of a lot more to do! But I mean, their parking, they must sort out.

Yeah, but i-

Because

..I, I had a, sorry, I had a sorry I had a tour of the sort of lido area which is all been re-developed, and it is looking quite good.

What have they done there? With the Lido?

Theyre making like a wet play area

Oh that’s right, yeah

With fountains

That’s a good idea, but I can’t understand, for the life of me why they took away the indoor bowls. Because they, that was a nice little thing there, and people always there, people using it, a lot of people using it, but they pulled it down, they could of carri-, you know, put that characteristic in there.

Yeah.

But no. Typical men! Bash it all down and then you know we, we put loads and loads of people out, that have, have shear enjoyment.

Yeah, unfortunately I don’t really know too much about that. I did, er, one of my colleagues interviewed one of the chaps that used to run things down there um, and he give me a CD of a film.

Was he Chris?

Erm, I think I might have [rustling of paper]

Chris Hannibal, Hammerhall-, call-, hammer-, hammerhawk or something?

Xxx erm, [paper rustling] Brian Barnard?

Oh Brian

Yeah.

Hmm

He, he gave me a copy of it. Like I said one of my colleagues interviewd him for another project. Erm, so he dropped that round very kindly for me, that was very nice of him

Oh that’s good. So what are you doing

So its nice to see

You’re making a book of all this? Are you? Or?

Erm, well Eastside Community heritage which is who I work for have been commissioned...

Who is it?

Erm I work for Eastside Community Heritage.

Yeah

And we’ve been commissioned to the oral history aspect of the project.

How about the erm, tea house ther, is that err...

Erm, there will be a new cafe down there.

Yeah but is that, is the house still there? Because...

No apparently I heard it burnt down.

That’s a load of rubbish.

Oh really?

Well it, it, it wasn’t bought-, burnt down on, on ... it was done on purpose.

Whereabout, oh was it arson, was it?

I mean it, it was, yeh, a place there that, as a, as a child you use to go there and have your drinks and your coffee and all that, it and it really was a lovely, and the people, you know that use to run it, use to live there

Ok

And it was always looked after and there was always people there in, in the park, you know. It was a lovely old tea house there.... have they still got the other building over the side where the er, footballers and all them change, have they still got that there?

I’m not sure to be honest

But you know where the Barking abbey school is?

Yes.

Well its over that side, right over the en-,end, there’s a building, it used to be building there that the footballer’s had and all...

It’s possibly it’s quite-

Cricket

There’s quite a large section of the park sort of cordoned off at the moment while they do all the works, so may be it’s still there but....

I mean look at the time they took to do that car park.

Mmmm

Well we were in hysterics, people coming to the centre and say “here have you seen the park, yeah, erm, ja-, Japan can do a whole road. Build it dig it up after their eh-, terrible earthquake erm, an-, after four five days the cars running along it. That took six weeks! That stupid car park!

[Laughing] oh dear!

Six weeks! What a waste of money! That is when you’ve got charity money, and it’s being wasted.

Right...

Don’t you think?

I would agree yes, that it does seem a bit extreme when like you say...

Six weeks!

When you compare it to examples where, but...

Well Japan...

I don’t know enough about it to really comment!

I mean Japan had this dreadful road that was absolutely, I mean you saw, you saw no doubt the terrible things that happened there.

Of course.

Xxxx I’ve got um, my friend’s two girls, children are over there at the minute helping, to do, to do and it’s wonderful. Um, you know, it, it was miles, miles and miles long. So that the people could get from A to say to C, and they did it in a week.

Crikey.

And when they said, Alf said, I can’t believe it. He says, six weeks, and they’re still not finished that car park!

Terrible isn’t it! [laughs].

I mean it’s absolute, and then they’ve left loads of it as grass still!

Right, so they haven’t completed the job?

Xxxx completed. But no, I mean, it has been found, four of our ladies went round there you see, and they, they all belonged to the bowls club. So they knew all the cars that were, you know, ‘cause the girl, the people had put “B” on them. So that they knew where the cars were.

Ok.

And out of that, out of the cars that were there, the majority were people, not people coming to the park, people that had left them there because they, they were there at half past eight in the morning, you know, the park opens at eight...

Yeah.

Doesn’t it? Half past eight the cars were there, and they were still there at half past five at night.

Crikey. Well it’s only a ten minute walk to the station from there though isn’t it?

Well that’s what I’m saying! And you think what they pay out in car parking. But I, if they’ve got two penneth of common sense, and they don’t want a war on their hands, they will give out all the, the, you know, the cricket, and the people that, the tennis, the table tennis, if you hire a thing, you get a ticket for your car. And then do the same with the bowling. I mean in the winter, when the indoor bowling, and you get hundreds of people there.

Really?

What’s going to happen?

It’s going to get very full very quickly isn’t it? [laughs].

Well it’s not that, they’re going to get people that’ll leave.

Oh really? Ok.

Because I mean a lot of Alf’s people are getting, er, so, xxxx up on it, that there won’t be a bowling club if, if, if the council don’t do something or other, the park don’t do something.

Right. That would be very sad wouldn’t it, to see it go?

Well I mean, that is, they want this to be an old park, bowls is the most important thing on the parks.

Yeah?

Bowls and your cricket. You know, your bowls, cricket and your um, football, and your tennis, are the main things in a, that are always in a park.

Hopefully when the boating lake is back up and running, boating will become popular again, won’t it?

But I just, I just can’t see that, oh, and boating and all that, but um, I mean, they can easily park in the big car park can’t they, for the boats. Be much easier then to park there. But um...

Sorry, I was just going to ask, do you know anything about the um, light railway in the park?

Oh that, yes, that’s been there for years, and years, and years.

Can you remember going on it as a child or later?

Oh yes, my daughter, my daughter would go up and down, up and down! Yes, she, she loved it! And I think all the children do. I did, yes. You know, I mean, because she was being pushed in a wheel, wheelchair, if we left you know, at the, is it, you know, they are sort of things that disabled children can do. And that’s why I think that is a necessity. ‘Cause if you leave at the, you know, at the um, where the er, what’s it’s name is, where the lake is, and the train goes along. You can run along with it, with your pushchair, and then meet them the other end. And they’re doing something individual and being, you know, doing something that they, on their own, and they can do it. Although mum’s running along the side with the pram, you know!

[laughs].

But um, it’s something disabled children can do. And how much is there in there that the dis-, and another thing is the playground. Are they putting ages on the people allowed in there, because I’ve been over there, seeing a load, a gang of Asian boys, doing everything that shouldn’t be done in that area.

Oh really? I’m not sure, I’m assuming when they open the new playground that will have an age limit or something like that, I really have no idea.

Well I think that, I know that a lot of the councils are doing that, and even, and that’s why they made them start paying to go in to do it, and I think they should have taken the money when they walked in and give it back to the mothers, parents, when they come out.

Hmmm, for good behaviour?

But er, yes!

[laughs].

If the children behave themselves! You see there’s no incentitive is there, in this, this world today. For the children. It’s honest to God, I mean, you listen to a child when she speaks to you, how often do you hear a child say thank you, excuse me.

I think it depends on where you are doesn’t it? [laughs].

No.

Most of the children that I have contact with are quite polite, but I, I don’t know, I suppose on a general sort of day to day basis xxxx...

If you, if you are out in a park...how, have you not heard the disgusting language and what have you?

[laughs].

I mean, I have!

I do hear some pretty shocking language but...[laughs].

But that’s what I’m saying! You see, and if you say, I mean, the gardens at Barking Park, and Mayesbrook, are gorgeous. If I’m in there and I see something to it, my stick comes up and I point them, and I say, what are you doing on there? You have no right to be on there! Oh, get out of it, you silly old blah, blah, blah. And I say, yes, it’s very clever isn’t it, I suppose seeing as I’m old you’re going to knock me down? And I said, but I shall bloody well hit you a damn site harder before you get to me!

[laughs].

And you know, and they’re so rude! I mean, an elderly person wouldn’t speak to a person like that in our day, because in our day, the person come up and say, oh, ain’t the flowers lovely, and the children would sit and discuss them, and the, and you learnt from the elderly people, what flowers were and you know, and what they were called, and if you come home and you think, oh, I know the name of that flower! You know! But today.

Yeah.

I think they’re horrible!

I think they’re doing a bit of an education initiative in Barking Park, sort of um, doing sort of nature rambles with young people and things like that...

I think that’s a brilliant idea, but also, they’ve got to have discipline while they’re doing it. Absolute disa-, discipline, because that is where it all falls down to pieces. I’m so pleased that Cameron has turned round and said, that schools have got to get -, I mean all the teachers have got their hands crossed like this haven’t they? Mustn’t do this, mustn’t do that, mustn’t shout at them. God if you, if I didn’t shout at my girls and wake them up occasionally, we’d have never got anywhere! [laughs]. I wouldn’t have all these teachers and goodness knows what! [laughs]. I mean, you, you have to raise your voice. But that, unfortunately, poor little sweets, it gives them the headache.

[laughs].

You know, and I, I think discipline, um, I’d like to see all the, the car park people, be given the right to really take their names and addresses and, and you know. They’ve got to stop it, otherwise every penny that’s being paid out in that park, they got, you get a gang in there xxxx, it’ll be gone. I, I just, I just feel that um, everybody’s now got to be stand out, stood up and counted.

Definitely.

I mean hasn’t it been proved these last few weeks. It doesn’t matter whether you’ve got a lot of money or if you’re broke, you can still be very horrible. As I say it, um, you didn’t, didn’t find, xxxx did find not very nice things in that day but, I can never remember, honest to God, anybody being horrible or rude or, anything. You know, I mean um, your mum would clout you if you were [laughs] xxxx. And that’s what they don’t get now, isn’t it? You know, I mean, I mean, well that’s what we say at the centre, you know, there’s old ladies there, ninety, ninety three, and she said cor, I didn’t half have some wallops when I was younger but it’s not done me any harm has it!?

[laughs].

Which is true!

Yeah.

So it really, it makes all this human rights thing, a load of rubbish. Don’t you think, honest to God?

I, I, I do think that, these days there do seem to be a lot of rules and regulations about things that I don’t think there need to be rules and regulations about, but...

But I, you, you get a person that comes here from another country, he rapes the girls, he does this, but because he’s got a wife and two children here, the judge gives him eleven months in prison instead of over a year, because if he, if he er, gives him a year, he can be deported. Now honest to God...I mean, Clegg, Gregg er, what’s his name, you know, what’s his name, Gregg?

Um...

What’s his other name, Nick Gregg, has got a lot to answer over this human rights, because no right, how about...

I haven’t heard about this...

How about the rights of the people that he, he raped. How about the rape, the er, the rights of the people that live near him? And all the trouble he causes? Haven’t, haven’t anybody else got any rights, is it just that one man that can do all these things, and because his wife and children are here, and that, like that woman that wants to bring her husband in from thing, from India, he doesn’t speak a word of English. And according to what I hear from India, you know [laughs], ‘cause my neighbour over there, he comes from a village nearby, and he’s an old man in he’s very ill, and she wants to bring him over here because he’ll, he’ll get treated in the national health!

Right.

So are we going to bring him over, allow him to come over, because it’s her human rights to have him over here? And she’s lived all these years without him. Let’s be honest about this. I, I, I sit back and I thought, God, I’ll be up there looking down, thinking there, I knew they were going to make a right bloody mess of all that! [laughs]. But it’s true isn’t it? Do you know, I mean, if you do wrong, if you do anything wrong, I mean, I firmly believe this, I mean if it happened to me, I would accept it. Because I think, if you’re doing wrong, and you’re taken to court, and you’re, you’re what’s the name, you’ve lost your rights for anything. Human rights or any rights. And therefore, if you can’t be right by living, why should you have your human rights? You know, it, it makes me so sick. I mean about those men that had all those young girls for prostitutes. They haven’t been deported because it’s not their human rights.

Crikey, no I hadn’t heard about that one either.

Well I hear about it, because you know, I know so many people.

I tend to avoid the news because it’s quite depressing so...[laughs].

Yeah, well I read it from front to back page. But you see this is the point. You see, everybody’s so busy today, they’re not, not looking at why this is all happening. It’s happening, a, because the children in school are not now being disciplined, no discipline. I mean, I’ve got a grand daughter, up there [gestures towards photo on the wall], they, them , they’re my um, son’s adopted three children. The one, the furthest one away, she’s the eldest. Now she left home at seventeen, she, I mean, they were adopted, she was five, four, three, when they were adopted. She had a terrible life there, but, then she was put in to care, and you know, in to social services. And that girl learnt how to get round the social services. Now right through up to, my son adopted her when she was six or seven, she has played with the xxxx, if, if Ian says she can’t do something or what have you, she goes straight to the social services and complains.

Oh really?

And they say yes she can do it, or no she can’t do it. And now she’s left home, she will sleep with anybody or anything. She, she’s been on the drugs. She’s done everything wrong. Everything. And that is just because social services were quite pleased to help her out, and listen to her. Wouldn’t listen to the school. Made the school be all namby pamby with her. And Ian and his wife got all the blame for everything happened. The other two kids are great. But she is just, she’s exceedingly clever. Now she’s been put in to four different homes, with you know, er, what do they call them? People who look after them you know.

Like foster care?

Yeah, foster care. And she’s been thrown out of all four. All, they, they have her for about three months, can’t put up with her a minute longer.

Really.

I mean I told her I’d always be here for her, to help her. And um, I said like, I wouldn’t have her live with me, ‘cause I’m too old and can’t you know, and she knows I speak straight from the chin. Well she came here for Easter because there, I had her over the Easter because she’d really upset the person...she came here, and she was an angel for the first day. And then she realised she hadn’t brought her charger with her, to charge her, you know, her mobile.

Right.

She turned like a er, a wild, mad, animal. And the language! I have never heard it, so atrocious, in all my life. You see?

Hmmm.

No discipline, no nothing. If they hadn’t given in, the social services...

Alf Groves: Would you like a tea either of you?

Oh I’m ok, thank you!

I’ll have a cup of tea please! Oh go on, have a cup of tea!

I’m alright! I still haven’t drank my water actually have I? [laughs].

Yeah. Um...

Thanks very much!

Yes that um, you know, it would be so different. And when you all get to our age and we all sit there down to the centre, I think we’re the people that should sit and tell people today what to do.

[laughs].

And how to do it, because we’ve been there.

Well you’ve all got the experience haven’t you?

We’ve been there, we’ve got the T-shirt. And when you’ve been through a war, I think you see all the sides of different people. But, how people can be like that are today, I don’t...I just can’t understand. I was just telling her about Naomi, Alf.

AG: Oh.

I mean the social, haven’t they? Social have ruined her life.

AG: They really have. See the kids learn how to play the system.

Yeah, it’s such a shame.

AG: And they get cleverer than the so-, because the social workers are always changing, they’re not with one long enough to really understand them.

Yeah.

AG: So she’s played the system all the way through, and she’s very, and it’s an absolute tragedy, ‘cause she’s intelligent.

Very intelligent.

You were saying she’s very smart isn’t she.

AG: Yeah.

Very intelligent.

AG: Our next door neighbour, she’s a science teacher and she’s talked to her...

Xxxx.

AG: And she said, she’s an intelligent girl, but...it’s a pity see ‘cause she’d xxxx, whenever I’ve asked her any questions, I know she has the ability to sail through her education.

And she just won’t.

AG: Not up to...Masters, but the level of education, she should have just walked that without even thinking.

Anyone can do anything they put their mind to.

Yeah! But now she’s, now you see, her idea, she’s not going to work, never going to go to work. I mean she’s eighteen on the eighth of, of September. Um, she’s got engaged. And the boy is as thick as she is. I mean she’s been sent out to somewhere [laughs], where...

AG: Are you sure you wouldn’t like a cup of tea?

Oh I’m fine, thank you. Thank you for offering.

AG: Alright.

Larksfield isn’t it, she’s at?

AG: Larksfield, xxxx xxxx.

She’s gone out over to Larksfield, she’s living over at Larksfield. They’ve sent her right away from the other lady, ‘cause, she was with a lovely girl, Gaye. Lovely. She was helping her, teaching her how to cook, and keep her bedroom clean and bath and everything. And course, Naomi, had a big strop on and wouldn’t do nothing. Wouldn’t wash.

Really.

Yes. Just went out and spent all her money that she’d got, and she’s supposed to buy all her own food and everything and, you know. And then she went round, um, she went next door but one, got in the boy’s bed with him and God knows what happened. And then she tells the little sister, what happens, that she had sex with her brother, and gives her cigarettes to smoke! A thirteen year old child!

Crikey!

AG: Ten.

Ten, oh ten year old child. Yeah.

AG: She’s, she’s just, I don’t know.

And you know xxxx.

AG: Xxxx, you know, unfortunately she is past redemption. You know.

I think she is now.

AG: ‘Cause you learn as you got on in life, the Roman Catholic priest says, give me a child til the age of seven and I’ve got it for life. And that applies to everything. If you, what’s gone in to a child by the age of seven, that’s it.

Right.

AG: You know, they may, they may learn how to cover things, but no. Then, they, her, unfortunately for her she had a terrible life, and a terrible upbringing.

She’s a beautiful looking girl.

AG: Terrible upbringing xxxx.

Beautiful looking girl, and when she’s...

It’s very sad.

Charming.

AG: Ah well, that’s part of her xxxx isn’t it? It’s xxxx xxxx.

[laughs].

Xxxx xxxx absolutely, such a lovely girl and you know, and she’d get drunk and pick up a two year old child, and threw it!

Crikey. Oh dear.

You know, it’s almost as if...

AG: I take it you’ve done everything have you?

I think we’ve been through a lot of it!

Oh sorry! [laughs].

AG: Xxxx.

Xxxx xxxx

I can probably stop the tape now!

AG: Did you tell her the story of um, the indoor shelter?

Yeah.

Yeah.

AG: Right!

It’s always good to come prepared isn’t it? [laughs]

AG: [laughs]. Oh Lord, yes!

We’ve had some laughs xxxx xxxx.

AG: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

Lynne used to love going round and round that. She said, did Lynne like the train? Used to put her there, and wheel her pram right down the end.

AG: Down the over end! Yeah! [laughs]

And pick, take her off! As I say, I think that’s good, especially for, for invalid children. And it, when you think.

Well, it still has full disabled access now which is really nice.

Pardon?

The train has full disabled access now as well.

Yeah.

So I think it’s even got a place for like, wheelchair users and stuff, to wheel themselves up on to it and...

Have they?

That’s what I’ve heard, I’m not, I’ve not been on it myself so...

I, I mean, for Lynne, it was just heaven, to get out of the pushchair, and be, be on something you know, properly.

Get to play on something other than her pushchair?

Her pushchair, yes, that she was really doing it properly, you know. And he’d sit the other side of her with a face like that, oh, he’s got to be on her with me, you know.

[laughs].

[laughs].

But good fun though?

Oh yeah, and she loved it! She just loved it, but there you are, it’s just one of those things isn’t it? I mean, as I say, that was when she was very young, where as she got older...she was brilliant. She was a clever little girl as well. It’s just a shame isn’t it?

Yeah.

But that, that’s lovely seeing, seeing that. But I will, as I say, I have got photo’s of the carnival.

Ok.

And I have got photo’s of the, you know, where they stand, and where they all get presented with the cups because there’s all different cups you know.

Oh that’s fantastic!

That they all, have you not, never seen the carnival?

No I’ve never seen, ‘cause the thing is...

They did, they don’t, the carnival’s not like what we used to do it, is it Alf?

AG: No.

Xxxx in Barking Park.

AG: There we are that’s Barking Park.

Take them two down and show her.

AG: No that’s not Barking Park! That’s in our own garden!

Oh!

[laughs].

AG: Nineteen forty nine (1949), fifty six (1956), fifty five, fifty six (1955/1956).

Oh wow!

There she is.

Doesn’t she look cute, in all her pink.

Yes. She um...

Would you mind if I took a photo of this photo?

Oh no, no. No.

I’ll just stop the tape now anyway, ‘cause I think...

Yeah.

[tape ends].

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Mrs Groves

Project: Barking Park

Date: 23^th August 2011

Language: English

Venue: 126 Bradfield Drive, Barking, IG11 9AS

Name of interviewer: Claire Days

Length of interview: 110mins

Transcribed by: Li-Anne Tan and Claire Days

Archive Ref: 2011_esch_BaPa_04

2011_esch_BaPa_05

2011_esch_BaPa_05

Ok, this is Claire Days, interviewing for the Barking Park Oral History project. Um, the date is the thirty first of August, and I’m here with Mrs Howe. Um, if you’d like to say your full name and date of birth for the tape please?

It’s er, Pauline Elizabeth Howe. Er, born sixteen, seven, nineteen thirty nine (16/07/1939).

And can I ask where you were born?

It was over the shop in Longbridge Road, one oh nine (109), Longbridge Road.

And can I ask what your parents did for work?

They were er, shopkeepers. Confectioners and, and um, ice cream, tobacco.

That’s fantastic. And obviously, being in that location, um, were both your parents from the Barking area originally?

Er yes, both. Um, me er, father, er, lived in er, well he lived in two or three different, but Morley Road, um, around that area. And then eventually they went in to Essex Road. Me mum lived in Lynton Road, and I don’t know whether she lived in Essex Road, er, Surrey Road with me Nan, because um, unfortunately um, she was illegitimate so she was brought up by her Aunt which was me Nan’s sister.

Ok.

And course, when me Nan did marry, she did, she was um, a young teenager so didn’t go with her mother in the end, she stopped with her Aunt. And then went to work, so of course she, I don’t think she actually moved in to Surrey Road at all. So they went from Lynton Road, I’m not sure whether they were in Suffolk at all, but I’m not sure about that.

Ok, no problem. Um, so in terms of yourself, and being born obviously on Longbridge Road, what schools in the local area would you have gone to as a child?

Um, I went to er, Northbury, so did me brother. Me older sister went to the Church of England, and then went to Northbury the latter part of the junior schooling. I went to, and me brother went to, Park Modern at secondary school. Me sister went to Gascoigne. Because I think Park Modern was, when me sister er, was there, was a um, a grammar school. And I think it changed over to um, what did they, secondary modern, when we went. Yeah, that’s right.

Is there, are there any memories that stand out in your mind about particular teachers or, particular things at school that have always stayed with you?

Er, Mrs Watson was my last teacher at Northbury, and I can remember um, well most of the teachers were very strict. Um, Mrs Jacksley, she was, she used to take us for er, needlework at Northbury School, ‘cause I was there until I was eleven. Um, now what was Mister...oh dear...I can visualise them but I can’t remember their names. Mister Phillips was the headmaster, he was a very, very nice, very strict but very, very nice um, headmaster. He was um, er, what else can I remember, can’t think of any, aint it funny, I’ll probably remember their names afterwards. Mister Fry, he was another teacher, that was one of me sister’s teachers, and er, when he found that I was a Howe, he said, oh, not Maureen Howe’s sister!

[Laughs]

So, you know, it’s, being a, having an older sister it sort of followed you round the school. Until I went to park Modern of course, she wasn’t there, so I was meself again! [laughs]. But the, um, and also we used to have a cinema at Northbury school, er, once a week they’d um, have er, like you know, Laurel and Hardy and all the old actors, er, Will Hay, and all that type of thing, Margaret Rutherford. All the old sort of films, we used to go there, during, once a week, we had Saturday, er, we had cinema at the school. That was very, I can remember that, that was very good I mean, but um, what else can I remember at school? Miss Sandwich, she lived in Park Avenue, she was a very nice teacher, um, but she was in the infants, er, in the um, infant school you know, the first part of schooling. She was very nice. You used to have to go to bed then, when you was at school, in the afternoon when you you first start school, they used to have canvas beds that you had to er, go to bed in the afternoon.

So you would kind of have a little nap sort of thing?

Hmmm, hmmm.

Oh lovely! I wish it was like that now! [Laughs].

Like that now! [Laughs]. Yes we used to have to do that in the afternoon, and course we sc-, stayed to school dinners, um, and er, during the war, or the latter part of the war, um, a lot, our sheds at the school, were filled up with er, um, food, that was I suppose kept there for keeping the er, schools running with meals. Um, you know, I assumed, must have been rice and potatoes and stuff like that, the sheds were filled up with, with rationing. Um, what else can I think...course you always had to do er, jogging on the spot and running round the platform in the winter when you was waiting to go in, ‘cause you weren’t allowed to go in to school until your class was called. You had to line up in the playground every morning, and er, if it, like in the cold weather he’d have you um, jumping on the spot and doing exercises while you’re waiting to go in to school. Because the bell would go, and you wouldn’t go in, you went by class in to the actual school.

So who would go first, would it be the older students and then working their way down or would it be the other way around?

The younger ones, working their way up I think.

Right.

I think, I wouldn’t say, whole heartedly but I think that’s what it was, by the way the school, and you weren’t allowed running up and down the stairs, they had a monitor on the stairs to make sure you didn’t play around on the stairs, because I suppose stone stairs are easy accidents and that.

Probably wouldn’t be too pleasant falling down them would it? [laughs].

No, no! [laughs].

That’s fair enough!

But er, I think that’s mainly all I can remember at school. At Northbury anyway. And then course, we went to Park Modern. But um, no, I think that’s it.

And what did you do when you left school?

Um, well, um, I’m afraid I must have been a bit, well I know I was, er, a bit slow on um, whether they class it these days as a slow developer, um, my father took me away from school when I was thirteen. Um, and put me to Pittman’s College in er, Fanshawe Avenue. Er, Miss Massy used to run the er, class there, and you had to, because of not being sixteen, because when I left school you had to be sixteen, the sixteen came in I think the latter part of the time I was in education. And um, as I say me father took me away when I was thirteen, I think I was nearly fourteen by the time, I would have been fourteen in the July, as I think I was taken away from school er, at thirteen going on fourteen. And um, he put me to Pittman’s for two years til I was sixteen. So he paid for me to go there.

So what did you do at Pittman’s then?

Er, well you done most subjects, you know, your English, Maths, um, short hand, um, also you did a language, Spanish, not that I got on very well with it. Well we did do French at Park Modern, but er, if you couldn’t, if you weren’t above a certain level after the first year they took you out. And only kept the children that could cope with it I suppose, at Park Modern. Um, but er...as I say, I stopped there until I was sixteen, at er, Miss Massy’s.

Ok.

Done me RSA and...short hand theory at, at the big, what isn’t there now, the South East Tech. Took me exams at the South East Tech in er, opposite the Robin Hood, what used to be the University of East London or whatever they called it, at the latter part of time. ‘Cause when I was at school, um, at South East Tech was what is now classed as Eastbury, um, the children went there, if they passed the scholarship they either went to the Abbey, or to the South East Tech. And then from the South East Tech they’d go up to the big one in, opposite the Robin Hood. What it was classed as a, laterally, a university, but er, it was always classed as a South East Technical College. When I was at school. Um...but er...I think that’s about all I can remember really at school.

And did you work after you left Pittman’s at sixteen?

Yes, I went um, er, from Pittman’s I went, my first job was in Leadenhall Street, West India House, next to the Cunnard Building. And I worked for er, a shipping company, that er, imported, exported er, Smedley’s, um, grocery foods, any foods really they imported them and exported them.

And they were called Smedley’s?

Er, no, the company was called er, Mann and Son.

Ok. And how long did you stay there for?

The first job, as I say, um, I was there one and a, about eighteen months. No, I’ve done it wrong, it was Brown, Brown was the company name. Mann and Son was me second job.

Ok.

Mann and Son was me second job. But they were the er, Brown and Son were the shipping company, it was shipping company, I done bills of laden and all that sort of thing. And then I went to Mann and Son which was in Whittington Avenue, which was um, off of Leadenhall Street. And they were, they were the company that started Harwich Container dock. I mean they, they did all the er, shipping of um, they had a couple of small vessels that used to do import and, and er, my boss, the chap, the gentleman I worked for, Mr Goddard, he worked on the Baltic Exchange. They went to the Baltic Exchange every day to buy, you know, do the um, chartering of the vessels, and I used to have to do the charter parties that um, done all the goods, like sulphur and all the different er, commodities. Um, as I say, it was right in the entrance of Leadenhall Market, it was Whittington Avenue is the, the entrance of Leadenhall Market, in um, Leadenhall Street. Gracechurch Street, all round there. Well it’s sort of, you can get in through the market most ways, or you could do then, I mean I don’t know about now.

Yeah, I haven’t been down there for a while either, so I don’t really know.

No, no, no. But er, they did have a sub office at Aldgate Pump, I used to work at the Aldgate Pump branch for about twelve months or more. Saracen’s Head House it was called. That was right on the pump, Aldgate Pump. And then, as I say, I went in to Whittington Avenue and then we went, um, I was there, what must be five years I think. Five, or just over five, and then I went to work for J.H. Rayner, who were then in er, Mark Lane. And they were a commodity brokers. [pause].

Sorry, how old would you have been, roughly, about then? Would you have been about twenty two or twenty three?

Yes, er, when I went to er, me last job, er, which was J.H. Rayner, um, I must have been about twenty two, twenty three. I stopped there until I was fifty two.

Wow!

And then I was made redundant at fifty two.

You were there some years though!

Yeah, yeah.

What was that environment like to work in?

It was very, very hectic. I mean you seen the markets on here, I mean, er, the er, commodity markets were in Plantation House originally. And we did move in to Plant-, from forty seven Mark Lane, we did move in to Plantation House. Fantastic office, I can remember when we went to see it, it was like a big, dark ball room floor, er, pink and grey tiled flooring, it was beautiful! And we was on the ground floor, and the commodity market was on the ground floor. And um, er, naturally they bought sugar, coffee, um, all them sort of commodities. And then they went in to metals, gold, silver, er, and then from there they went in to sugar. I mean when I started I was the, thirteenth person, it was only a very small company. They did deal with um, sweets originally, importing and exporting sweets, but that, when I started there that had more or less been wound down. And they just deal, dealt with the commodities. And um, they er, as I say, done all the commodities um, and the trading floor was where they bought, bought and sold. I mean the noise in there was colossal! Um, and my boss, Mr Margeles, he was the er, head of the company, er, when he went on to the trading floor, they knew something was going to be up because the, the price of everything would start rising, they knew that the only time he went on the floor was when something was going to happen. And er, the prices used to go, say, got quite a reputation for being, how to um, foresee what the market was going to do. And I mean, well, he made millions. He did. He really did. And yet he was such a down to Earth person.

Was it quite exciting?

Oh yes! The, the, I mean the money those um, brokers earned, you know. Six figure bonuses was nothing, what they do, like they say, you can quite understand why the banks have had this problem the last few years. If you saw what them commodity brokers earn, it’s colossal. It really was colossal money.

I can imagine, if you’re talking six figures back then!

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, um, I suppose like everything, um, naturally er, when companies are making money, that unfortunately I don’t think they kept a tight rein on what was going on, because a couple of the staff did do, and you weren’t allowed to, um, manipulate the market for your own benefit, but I must admit two or three of them did do it, and did get caught. But they was never er, how shall I say, probably prosecuted. Because of the reputation of the company. They had to naturally, forestall whatever they could, and er, would be penalised, but they um, it was where money was made at such vast amounts, I mean, the company, as I say, when I went there I think I was the thirteenth person, there was um, three women including me. And the others were the men, which was the traders and the general manager, who used to deal with everything, Mr Wiltshire. And um, when I left I suppose there must have been on that trading floor alone, sixty, seventy people.

And then obviously, office and support staff as well?

Hmmm, hmmm.

Wow.

Well the er, the two biggest parts was the trading floor and the accountancy, because they had to keep records, and xxxx, and yet funny enough, the thing what, always amazed everybody, Mr Margeles, he never put pen to paper. He never ever put pen to paper. And yet he could tell within thousands, what his company was worth. He’d got a most fantastic memory. He could, this accountant came in and said, oh, he said, we’re say fifty thousand this week. He’d say, no, that’s not right. And he could tell within a little, and yet you never ever, I don’t think I ever saw him with a pen in his hand. All the thirty, what was it, I was there thirty one years, I think it was, and I never ever saw him with a pen in his hand. And yet he could mark them commodities, his main what’s name was cocoa and sugar, the money they made on er, cocoa and sugar, and then brought in coffee. I mean the, he could tell within what’s name’s, what the figures were. It was a, everybody was amazed how what’s name he was. In his job. Really.

It does sound like an incredible talent!

Talent, yeah, yeah. Yeah. He must have been a millionaire, a hundred times over. Well he went out to Israel, and bought up an area, to build a village out there. But er, something went wrong with the um, I don’t know what it was I know there was a big what’s name, in, in the end. Um, there was something where he had to come home, but he wasn’t allowed out of Israel at the time, because er, whether it was something to do with the making of this town, or something he wanted built. Or this area, I don’t know, but something went wrong.

Did he have connections to Israel then, did he have...?

Well, being Jewish.

Ah right, ok.

See it was a Jewish company, er, it went to um, from J.H. Rayner, and company, and then it went to J.H. Rayner Cocoa limited, and then it went to S and er, er, part of S and W Beresford. Which were um, er, grocers in um, now where was it? Um...not Xxxx street, the one that went at the side of it....God...not Philpott...well it was on the corner, and they, S and W Beresford were um, er, British Sugar. We took over British Sugar, we was part of that. We, our pension and everything was dealt with by British Sugar in Peterborough.

Ok.

Er, because they bought up British Sugar, that’s one of the, ‘cause they did buy up quite a lot of small companies, coffee companies and that at the time, and British Sugar. And our pensions and things like that was dealt by the company there, because they had er, I assume, a group that dealt with the er, accountancy side of that. Um, but er, then from Leman’s Street, we went down to docklands, and then that’s how it seemed to unwind. Things seemed to go wrong, whether he went from being on the market floor, to the boardroom, and they think that um, he didn’t have the tight rein on the market that he did when he was on the floor himself. And it seemed to gradually collapse. And um, the um, metal department, er, bought theirself out, they stopped in um, er, the, docklands. And the cocoa and the sugar and all the others seemed to just more or less run down. It’s a shame really when you think how big it had got, um, and as far as I know it er, it’s since closed completely.

That’s very sad isn’t it?

Yeah. Yeah.

Such a long running company.

Yeah, yeah. Once the director sort of moved out of the commodity floor area, it seemed to, and course they always said it was because they didn’t keep an eye on what other people were doing. But, like most things I suppose. Um...no it er, but it was very, very um, full on type of job. But er...but unfortunately they’ve er, two of the, two, the two that I knew when I first started they’ve both, since died, so, they’re no longer here. Though I think Marg, did, was buried out in Israel. That’s what he wanted, so things must have been sorted out after all! [laughs].

[laughs] Had a happy ending I suppose!

Yeah, for him yes, yeah.

Did you marry or have children in that time?

No, no,no, I never married.

Ok.

I kept in contact with me friends who, who I was er, at work with at Mann’s. I’d known her, she died er, two years ago. I’d er, known her since I was what, eighteen.

Wow.

We’d worked at Mann’s together, and then we went, she went to Rayner’s, and I went to Rayner’s about three, four years later. And we still kept in contact. She lived in Rainham. And er, as I say, we’d known, all that time. But I still keep in contact with me old boss, er, at um, Derrick Gargin, he lives in er, Blackheath. I ring him now and again. And me other friend, Reno, he moved out to South Africa, er, Kit and I went to see him a couple of times in South Africa. And Sarah, who was there when I first joined, um, Rayner’s, she lives in America, and we went there about two or three times to America to see her.

Quite extensive travels!

She moved out there when her daughter got married um, married an American, and once she started having her children, her mother and father moved out in to St. Louis’s, so we used to go out there and visit them out there. So...

Sounds like an exciting life!

I’ve kept in contact with all of them really, I suppose.

That’s lovely.

And worked with them, yeah. But er, hmmm.

And when you got made redundant at fifty two, did you decide to take early retirement then as well?

Well no, I didn’t, I tried to get another job, I mean I had an arch file of jobs that I applied for. But I just couldn’t get a job. I mean, um, even to the extent of the latter part of the time I tried er, most people when they saw your CV and where you’d worked, they always classed it as being over...um, qualified, that was their, I mean, I tried er, Boots, I tried Tesco’s, um, plus a mile of other companies that they sent me to. I think I had in that, from what was it, er...was it ninety two (1992), I was made redundant. Or was it ninety one (1991)? And I think that first three, four years I had six interviews.

Crikey!

And yet we used to have to go down and sign on every week. But they’d sent er, and that was in Wakerim Road, they sent me on adult training course over at er, insurance company building in er, Cranbrook. And I never realised, it was on a computer course, and it was all on the F keys. I’d, they didn’t have a mouse, I’d never heard of a mouse!

[laughs].

You learnt all the workings was on the F keys. That’s how you operated the computer, like done accounts or letters or things, it was all on the F keys. So course, each time I went for an interview, they’d say have you been on the, on the computer and I’d say, yes, I’ve just done this course. And they say well, would you, and they’d give you, give me this mouse and I didn’t know what to do it! [laughs]. Because I had, we hadn’t, I mean, why on earth they taught you on a, such an out dated system I don’t know!

Yeah. It seems very strange.

Whether that was the reason I couldn’t get a job because I hadn’t got that, er, what’s name, I don’t know. But in the end I did try to get jobs in Boot’s, in the er, filling up or doing the shop or whatever, considering I’d worked in a shop as a young person. But they said, oh no, you’re too qualified. And I think I had, I can’t remember whether it was five or six interviews in three years, and I had a, I only destroyed the arch file two years ago, and it was this thick with applications of where I’d written for jobs. There must have been a hundred or more in there. But course there, er, once you’re fifty, well in them, I mean I’m going back nearly what, twenty years isn’t it? Ninety (1990), and now were two thousand and eleven (2011). Um, there wasn’t the er, what’s it for work, I suppose.

‘Cause I suppose that would have been, almost the time of recession as well wouldn’t it, actually?

Yes, yeah, the first recession. Oh yes, that was about that time. So of course.

Talking about seventy nine, eighty (1979, 1980).

Yeah, yeah.

Ok. Yeah it probably was quite a difficult time to try and find work...

Try and find work, yeah. So I can understand how people um, middle aged and that, finding it now to try get work. [pause].

That’s really interesting. So how did you find that after working so hard for so many years?

I found, I, I think I did find it extremely hard to come to terms with, and I think that is, I should say the biggest problem with people retiring. I mean unfortunately, er, because my old bosses had um, left by the time I was made redundant, and unfortunately for my own situation, the chap who was in charge, um, got a ticking off through something he’d did to me, during my time. So he wasn’t at all helpful. And when you’re, I suppose, emotionally upset about being made redundant, I didn’t realise that I could have gone and insisted on having a full pension, because the thirty years I’d done. It entitled me to a full pension, but I didn’t realise it. And then when it came to my um, I was told, oh, I should apply for a full pension because the girl two years younger than me, they’d given her a full pension.

Right.

Who wasn’t even fifty. So they, somebody pointed, told me about it, and course when I went to the Ombudsman over at er, um, Epping somewhere it was, I had to go the, er, I can still see the gentleman now, he was very, very nice. He said, it’s a shame you hadn’t come a couple of years earlier, you could have gone through and insisted on having your full pension because you were entitled to it. But he said, this length of time is too long. They put me in touch with a solicitor and he said, you’ll be throwing good money after bad to, to take the company to er, court over it. But, so, really I suppose a lot of it was me own fault in some ways. I should have insisted on doing it, but you don’t think. You, you think, I think when you’re made redundant, you’ll walk in to another job, and that was the idea. Um, you er, because he said to me, the chap said to me when I, when I was redundant, oh, you can, your pension can either stay here or when you get a new job it can be transferred. Well of course I didn’t think no more of it. But, really and truly, he should have told me that I could have taken me pension. Because I was over fifty, and I’d done the thirty years. Because you was in um, our pension was um, salary related. So I could have insisted on having a pension on what I was, my last salary. But er, unfortunately, I suppose like most things, things don’t work out right, but as I say, I did find losing that um, closeness of working with people, er, to come home and find nothing, it was very, very hard to start with. But then I suppose anybody not go-, used to going to work suddenly getting cut off, it is hard. That’s why I can never understand the government, because of, when you think over the last what...thirty, forty years, the average age of a man living in to retirement is usually very short, to what a woman is. Well when you think they’ve got up probably from the age of sixteen to sixty five, every day of their working life, going to work, and then suddenly one day, they don’t go no more, I could never understand why they didn’t, when a person give the option of say forty, the last ten or fifteen years of their working life, cutting their week down. Until eventually, they’re not there five or six days a week, they’re there for one or two. Which allows the body to acclimatise to nothing.

And I suppose it would also help to put things in place, like hobbies and things like, developing those.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It would be a good idea! You should write the PM a letter! [laughs].

[laughs]. Oh yeah! But that’s what I could never understand, knowing how they’ve know all these years, that the average man’s lucky, or he used to be lucky, if he lived five years in to retirement. But then you take it, if a man’s used to getting up at six o clock every morning to get theirself to work, work, come home, work, come home. And then to wake up one morning and you’ve got no where to go, unless you’ve made, been made redundant, you’ve got no idea how that feels to suddenly cut off. It’s like I suppose really, any, anybody doesn’t understand losing a limb. Until you’ve lost it, you don’t realise how much you depend on you’re being, do you?

Of course.

So, but there we are, that’s life, isn’t it! [laughs].

[laughs]. You seem quite happy now, so...

Oh yes, yes, I’m, I mean to be quite honest, I mean, though the job was very, very hard, and you were expected to work, I mean there was no, shying off and things like that. They were very, very good regarding pension, I’d got no worry about really when I, unfortunately, I never ended up with a company pension. That was the biggest problem, but, without that, you wouldn’t survive, on a, on er, um, government pension. How people do I do not know. Without having that company pension, it does make a hell of a lot of difference. I mean how some elderly people find paying their bills, I do not know.

Must be very difficult.

Difficult, yeah. And I suppose also, like they keep telling us, we’re all living too long! [laughs].

We don’t mind that though, do we!

[laughs]

As long as the pension keeps coming in, it’s fine! [laughs].

So of course, I had, took an annuity, when I was fifty eight. By then I could see I wasn’t going to get a job. So I took a, er, me pension, and er, lucky enough the chap who I saw over Epping, he was very, very good. He sorted the lot of it, and gave me some advice on, to make sure that er, things were done properly. So, I was very lucky that way.

That’s good.

Where me friend Kit, retiring at, er, before the company collapsed, she had a company pension. And I think in her um, years er, there, her pension went up I think near enough double. In her fifteen years. Where you see mine will never increase at all, it stops at the same of what I had um, when I was fifty eight, as I have now at seventy two. It doesn’t in-, increase at all, it’s at a set amount. But as I say, like, Kit used to say, how we would have survived without, I don’t know. But it was a very, very good pension.

That’s good!

So, so, there we are! [laughs].

Well thank you for sort of telling me about your work, and obviously your life.

Yes, yeah.

Um, I was going to say now, if it’s ok with you, if we can just, just jump back in time a little bit...

Xxxx park.

Um, yeah, if we could talk about like, what would be your earliest memory of the park do you think? ‘Cause obviously you were living quite close to it, so...

Yes, well, I suppose also, um, well the earliest thing I suppose is the guns.

Ok.

Er, because of the war, you’d hear the what we used to call “Rat Tat Tat” of the guns. And also they used to have a big silver, what we called a pig, it was a big silver barrage balloon, they used to have over there, periodically. Um, I understood from me father it was used to stop the um, the er, army being fired on, because they were situated over the park. ‘Cause naturally, I was born in the July as the war started in the September, so of course, the first six years of me life, we never, we weren’t in the park because the army was in there. Because of the war. Um, of course once the war was over we was always in the park.

So you weren’t allowed in the park at all while the soldiers were based there?

No, no, well, I don’t, to be quite honest, I suppose from the out, from the time I was born, I don’t know about me sister, being that, two and a half years older. But I shouldn’t have thought so, but um, naturally, during the war you weren’t allowed out because of the bombing, I mean I can remember a couple of times being caught when the siren went, because the siren was over the top of the police station, what is the old police station. If that went, naturally everybody had to be in their shelters or where ever. And a couple of times I can remember me mum, bringing us home from me Nan’s in Surrey Road, and course, with a pram, she’d have to come the long way around because she couldn’t go over the bridge, ‘cause you wouldn’t get the pram over the bridge. So she’d come round Ripple Road, in to Longbridge Road, and I can remember being um, running, with me mum running, with us, me brother in the pram, and trying to run with us to get home because the siren had gone. And er, I can remember another time being caught in Suffolk Road, approaching the bridge with me mum, we must have been older then, and the siren going, and one of the men coming out saying, come in love! And took us, me mum and us three children in and he put us under the stairs in their room until the siren, all clear come, and then we could go home. I can remember that, that’s mainly the war I can remember. I can’t remember much else, other than when ever as a child, you’d er, be under, put under the stairs when the siren went indoors. Um, another time, another thing we had um, what, um, um, wrought iron cage that we had in the um, ice cream parlour. That we slept in, because it was supposed to be safe, you know, they were sort of like, well it was like a cage, it reminded you of being in, an animal in a cage! It was a, I suppose about this high, four, for the four sides and the roof, xxxx for children. We was in, used to sleep in there every night, because apparently the floor was concrete in the parlour. It was er, ice cream parlour, not, not a parlour parlour. So the floor was concrete and tiles, quarry tiles, so of course, because it was so solid, he, he put it up in there. And xxxx sleeping in there, I can remember that. Um, what else about the war? Um, other than that, I mean we must have gone to school towards the end of the war, but I can’t remember any siren, or anything, but I can remember having to take our gas masks with us. We had little boxes of gas masks. Me brother had one, Donald Duck! I wished we’d kept it, I don’t know what happened to it, it was a Donald Duck face, because him being eighteen months younger than me. But I can remember having this um, gas mask, and putting it on, and it was er, you’d look through, it was er, cellophane. And it was sort of er, a yellow-y colour. When you looked through. But er, of course, and the bottom piece where you breathe through was sort of like, holes and it was green, green and white, I can remember that. But er, oh, and we was evacuated to, um, Manchester, why, the only reason I can, we gathered, we went to Manchester, was because my mum’s friend who they used to work over the park, in the Lido, in the restaurant in the Lido, were friends and she had a sister up in Manchester, so we went up to Manchester. But we was only there a week, me mum didn’t like it and we come home! [laughs].

So it was kind of, more like a holiday really? [laughs].

Really, yeah! [laughs]. Well there was a bit of disagreement with me, me um, Aunt and sister and me mum, so er, but that was the first place I ever had, and I must have been I suppose five, four or five, peanut butter. And they bought it, you weighed it, you bought it out of, they had a dish, and you bought er, two ounces or a quarter, of peanut butter. And that’s the first place I can remember having peanut butter!

What did you think?

And thinking it was marvellous!

Ok.

[laughs].

I’m not a fan myself!

No! [laughs].

I think it’s one of those marmite things!

Things, yeah, yeah! I mean, not that I eat it now, but I can remember as a child thinking it was marvellous.

Wow! Just going back a second, to the soldiers that were based in the park, do you know roughly how many soldiers were based there?

Quite a lot because I was going by the amount of er, ammunition, that, but I think the whole of er, what was later known as the cricket pitch, um, is it, er, what’s the walk at the side of the park? Is it um...

I want to say...

Edward’s! Saint Edward’s way, is it? The, the um, concrete path at the side that takes you to the tennis courts. Half way up the path. I think the whole if that was army um, ammunition er, they had big er, bigger than this, I should say higher than this, ten foot high where they must have caught, kept the ammunitions and the what’s name, er, metal bunker type things. And then course the whole, one whole what’s it, it was all pre-fabs. Where I assume the army were billeted. And they were later used for families that were bombed out during the war. Once the army left, er, also um, Loxford Lane er, the officers and that were I think billeted in er, Loxford Lane in the big old houses in Loxford Lane. [pause].

And, I was quite struck that you called the barrage balloon a silver pig...

Yes! Well it was, because it had er, two big ears, and a very big round tummy. And as a child you think of something big as an elephant. And it had these sort of like, whether they were sort of um, not wings, but sort of, that sort of, kept the thing in a particular direction or anything, I don’t know. But we used to call it a pig because it looked, without a tail or trunk, but it looked like a pig! ‘Cause it was so big. I mean, it’s, they’re more or less exactly, I don’t know whether you saw the one that went over a couple of weeks ago, Dunlop, had one.

Um...

Er, Dunhill was it, Dunhill, or Dunlop?

Ah, ‘cause they kind of use them as like advertisements these days don’t they?

Yeah, yeah, well it’s exactly like that, only it was silver. Completely silver in colour.

Wow.

Yeah.

It’s amazing, ‘cause you’re the first person I’ve met that actually remembers it in the park, so...

Yeah.

You also said it was only there periodically...

Yes, it did, well, whether we weren’t out enough during the war, because naturally I suppose um, at that age I suppose we wouldn’t have been wondering around a lot on our own anyway. Because as I say, I was, went through the, what is the war, six years? So I suppose I was six by the time the war ended. Um, so I’m assuming that that was why I wouldn’t have seen it that much. Whether it was there all the time or not I wouldn’t like to say. But I understood from me father that it was for keeping er, making it difficult for air raids, you know, for when the um, air raids come over. I mean, I don’t know why on earth the army was in the park, it wasn’t as if it was guarding anything was it? But whether it was there, one of their bases because of the docks, see the, like the er, down by the rushing waters, what we called the rushing waters, when we were children. The dock area you see, a lot of the er, stuff was brought in by barges and small vessels in to the town quay. When er, I assume, during the war, or there was a, I think ‘cause I know there was a lot of black market that went on in Barking, down, or I understood, I mean I didn’t know, but I, by what my father used to say, um, and xxxx, and er, down at the town quay so I assume there was a lot of, probably the food stored for the Barking area, I don’t know. Down there, but er, so whether that’s why the army was there, I don’t know. And then course, you’re not that far from Woolwich, where a lot of the ammunition was um, um, made, and whatever, so, I suppose you’re sort, and you’re in, not that distance from London itself, so I suppose the surrounding area’s are more likely, so I suppose they had to have odd places to er, fight off whatever was going. But I don’t know when the actual army went, and that, but um...er, but as I say, course naturally, me father being in the shop, he er, used to serve a lot of the army um, personnel. But um...but er, as for...army people, I can’t say that I can recollect much. I, I have vague feelings of seeing people in army uni-, you know, the kh-, khaki uniform, but not to that extent to know anything about it. Or, you know, not to specifically say. But er, course, once the army went the park was ours...and er...I should say we spent most of our life in the er, Barking Park. The er, ‘cause they didn’t demolish the er...

[coughs] Excuse me!

The er, army places we used to go er, you know, use them as hide outs and games and that. I, I suppose really, officially we shouldn’t have been, but...[laughs]. And then course, as I say, a lot of the um, most of the um, pre-fabs were um, housed a lot of the population that had been bombed out from where ever. Er, was used as house, because also our um, three closest friends were bombed out of Lyndhurst Gardens, and put in to the er, what was known as the um, restaurant in Barking Park. They lived there for the majority of the latter end of the war. Um, they was er, and course the two girls, and Dorothy, Hilda, and Jeffry, we played with as children over the park. So, we was in and out, they had the flat above the, um, you went in the side way, where the ladies toilets are now, and we used to go up in to the flat above, and play with the children from there. Until they went back in to Lyndhurst, once they were re-, rebuilt after the, the war. But as I say, we spent most of our childhood in the park, with a group of children. Also, one of the boys I used to know was in the pre-fabs. He, how he came there I don’t know, ‘cause he come up from Wales. But whether certain people er, got family members in the area, or whether they were er, what’s name, er, but he lived in the pre-fabs for quite a while when we was at Northbury School. Um, the er, and course naturally, er, we used the park as our play area, as a, especially during the six weeks holiday, you spent I should say, ninety percent of your time over the park. But we did visit all parks we didn’t just stick to, we use to go to Greatfields, to South Park, Wanstead. I don’t think there was any park in the area that we didn’t play in and that, but we preferred Barking because it had more I suppose swing facilities, Mayesbrook had got a few, South Park hadn’t got much at all other than we use to go there fishing you know, because also naturally you spent quite a lot of our young time over at the lake, the stream at the back of the lake. When the railway use to be along the back there cause we use to use this end the South Park end, the railway never came up that far it only came part of the way of the lake and we use to use that area for tadpoling, because a lot of the back piece where they’ve built, although there are still some there I think, or is there any now, I think they have built all along there, were all allotments because naturally everybody grew their own food during and after the war so all that back part of the park, not the , from the stream, the other side of the stream , so in other words I suppose Loxford Road till the back of the park was all allotments, not where they are at the moment, I think they are at the side of the park aren’t they just behind the Abbey, yes allotments. Well that was all allotments there, because we use to use the trees to swing across the lake and we use to get tadpoles and our fish out netting and everything in there.

With your Father’s shop being so close to the park, because I’ve heard people use to buy little fishing nets and things.

Well he sold fishing nets and that yes.

Could you tell me a little bit about your Father’s relationship with the park because obviously being that kind of shop quite close?

Well also he made his own ice cream so he naturally during the summer months he , the carnival we always had a beautiful carnival so of course he use to sell all the fishing stuff, nets and that and ice cream was the biggest thing, he was well known for his ice cream. Of course the general thing was sweets and tobacco and then you had all your coupons, you was only allowed sweets on coupons when I was a child. Your D2’s and E2’s and E1’s. D’s you could have two ounces, E’s you could have a quarter. And he use to make his ice cream, the latter part, or some part of the time because of not being able to get the milk and the sugar and everything, Cow & Gate’s baby food I can remember seeing the tins of that, must have used to make his ice cream. Doing wafers and cornets, what else, and then of course you got the, started to get the bubble gum machines and thing like that but Barking Council weren’t keen on people having things on the forecourts. I mean goodness knows what he would say today if he went down Ilford lane and saw the amount of stuff, you weren’t allowed, I mean one little bubble gum machine they would kick up whatsname and wouldn’t allow it, very whatsname. What else can I say about this shop? Course during the war the window was blown out, I suppose with the blast because the house on the corner I can remember him saying one day after the bombing because they had a string of bombs come down Longbridge Road along, the end house had the whole of the side of the house blown out and he said he came out of the shop and the lady was upstairs in her nightgown and the whole of the one side of the house had gone and she was up there...

She was okay?

Yes, yes, yes, and we had a fish pond when we came here because naturally I was born over the shop and we stopped there till I was about seven, I don’t think I , seven or eight I think I was when we came here, they had a fish pond and apparently the fish pond where it was , was where one of the bombs had dropped that hadn’t gone off because there was a string of them and only one, I don’t know whether it was one, two, two of them went off but the others didn’t go off for some reason I think. I don’t know exactly the whatsname of it but. So the first two houses on the corner of Wilmington I think had to be rebuilt and also this house, the lady who lived over, who I knew for a while, over on the corner of Sherwood she said there was a stream run across here before this house was built because she said her and her brother use to play in the stream so I assume it was a stream that went into the farm where Barking park is so the stream must have run along there somewhere.

That’s amazing.

Yes so, and of course naturally we knew les in the whatsname, well course when I was a child Curtmans [?] was the dairy which is what is now the veterinary whatsname.

And that was a dairy you said?

Yes Curtmans was a dairy right up until we moved into it, and we moved into it, what was the year we moved into there, I think we was in there about eleven years, because the whole block other than Curtmans belonged to my uncle, was Elbins [?] the garage so Curtman was what is the veterinary one, next to that was the butchers which was Oakhills and my aunt lived in the flat above there, she wasn’t the butcher but Oakhill he lived in Shirley or Lndhurst but he had the butchers. Next door to that was Rawlins which was a greengrocers, then came me Dad the sweet shop and then came Albons which was the car showroom, when I was a child it was a showroom. But I think my Dad originally where he was, wasn’t the sweet shop I think it was slightly further along which was run by me uncle’s son in law before me dad took it over, because me dad worked at Beckton during the war because you had to be in a, he was a brick layer down at Beckton Gas Works. They use to re build the retort houses that done the gas for the area. He worked at Beckton during the war but before the war he worked, he was a brick layer in, anywhere, you know, he done brick laying anywhere, I mean he worked at, on all of the royal docks, he worked on the BBC, he said he saw one of the most fantastic things when he worked there when they built the BBC, they were putting in sound proofing, it was a new thing for sound proofing and his boss and I don’t know whether he said there were three four men moved a whole wall literally moved it because apparently the architect had got the facilities or the planning wrong and it was , I don’t know six inches or a foot out, they moved a whole wall in the BBC for this thing to be done to make it sound proof and he said it was the finest thing he had ever seen, and he was a young man, and he said he never ever have believed it feasible, but of course nowadays you see them move whole things but when you’re thinking in the, I should think, he came into the shop in the nineteen thirty six I think he came into the shop, so he was working up the city, he was born in 07, so from a boy of fourteen he had worked in London in all the different areas, and also he worked as a, one of his first jobs was on the Bull pub.

Oh was it, what was did he do there?

He was doing some brick work there when they were doing a modification or an extension or something, he worked there, but one of his jobs was on the Bull pub because he got into trouble. It was one of his first whatsname he got told off in.

What did he get told off for if you don’t mind me asking?

He was, apparently one of the bar staff was getting undressed and he was looking through the window and he got caught and his boss had him and put him over the coals for it and said to him, “Don’t you do that again otherwise you shall not be working here anymore”. So he said it was something that really stood in his mind, he never ever forgot it [laugh]. But as I say on and off from the time he went in the shop he didn’t do much brick laying at all really. I suppose naturally my sister was born in thirty seven so from then he started having a family so, brick laying then, fog you didn’t work, rain you didn’t work, and it was very, you didn’t get paid if you didn’t do the work, it was a sort of, frost, all during the winter you were later and later starting, earlier and earlier packing up because of the dark, you didn’t have the whatsname so course that side of it was very sort of hit and and miss, it wasn’t sort of like a stable, and that’s how he went to, bought the shop or rented the shop of off his uncle to start with and took over the shop.

I suppose that was more of a livelihood...

Yes it was more of a permanent working job.

Was there much competition between obviously your father’s business and the...

Yes

Cafe.

Well not with the cafe so much because that cafe wasn’t there, I suppose probably closed down before the war started, and I can’t remember when we were children other than our friends living above it that the cafe was ever really open much. I think it probably only opened during the summer period and also quite a bit of the time, because I think quite a lot of the restaurant in there never ever seemed to make a go of it, there was so many people taking it over and not being able to do alot with it, Often that corner piece was the only thing that ever, that sold the drinks, ice cream and lollies, that I can remember as a kid being open a lot but the actual restaurant side of it where it done the teas and the whatsname it never ever seemed there, in my mind a lot, whether it’s because naturally I suppose children don’t go in buying cups of tea, probably it might be that, that you didn’t, you were more interested in the ice cream and the whatsname but I suppose it must have been busy fro time but it often seemed to be shut a lot of the time but it might have been because it was seasonal, that you only had it between the summer months, like say from Easter to the summer holidays and then that was probably why we didn’t associate much with it. Though they had another shed there which was an all enclosed one, all glass, you got the two lots of seats here, two lots of seats at the back and two at the side, and they had all glass whatsname between, where this one was only just the four corners and the roof when we were children it wasn’t like that. It was only the roof and four corners and the seats in between. Whether it had been dismantled because of the army or what I don’t know but the other one, the all glass one was opposite the restaurant, between the restaurant and where the indoor bowling alley is, that was there, and also they had a drink, you know where you press the button and got your drink, because naturally as kids we didn’t run around with a bottle of water in our hand, you used the taps.

Oh they had a water fountain did they?

No, well...

A drinking fountain?

It was this high I suppose and all you did, it was sort of gray and it had a top with a brass button and you press the button and the water came and you just put your mouth under it. That was by the shed and by the restaurant, that was there, and of course the toilets were at the back of the restaurant, I don’t know whether there still there now, because there was two lots, because there was a lot over by the tennis courts, that as kids you were forbidden to go in.

Why were you forbidden to go in them?

Well they were a bit frightening, they smelt terrible and it was always known that men went in that and it wasn’t a place where children should be, where the ones by, where my friends lived in the flat above had attendants kept there where the others weren’t they were, you just walked in and out.

I didn’t realise they had attendants at the toilets in the park.

Yes , yes.

Do you remember them at all did they have a uniform or any details?

I don’t think I can remember a uniform, no, no I can’t, no I can’t remember if they had a uniform at all or not, I mean though I suppose the lady might have had a white apron or something like with me Dad and with the often the ice cream whatsname had white coats and whatsname, so whether the lady, but I can’t remember the man, well naturally I wouldn’t have gone in the man’s ones so, but I can’t imagine my brother passing comment, well knowing my brother he would probably use the other ones where he could please himself but, and of course because they were under the shrubs and that there because the tennis courts were there and also the, where they done, grew all the flowers and that were at the back there...

The nurseries?

The nurseries, it was a whacking great, from the back of the tennis courts right the way towards the lake, well naturally not to, but the whole length of the swimming pool was where the park, not the park keepers but the gardeners kept all their tools and their, done their planting or cuttings and everything there...

Did you ever go in there?

No, no it was very, very, xxxx. Well I’m not saying we didn’t go over the whatsname if our ball went over there but I mean not officially went into them, no I can’t at all, well I know I never put it that way, I wasn’t that, well I suppose dare devil to do it, my brother, well I wouldn’t say there wasn’t a part in the park he didn’t get into. Like bunking in the lido and, although we didn’t call it, we just called it the open air.

What do you mean by bunking in the lido?

Going over the wall.

Oh did he.

Yes, yes, the boys would if they could get a chance but it wasn’t very easy, because it was quite high, oh I should say, because the way the thing sloped, but of course you had the turn stile to come out and of course that wasn’t quite as high as what the walls were so, but oh yes I can’t imagine him not wanting to be able to get in without paying because he would want to spend his money on ice cream or something else, but, and you would spend hours in there during the summer.

Could you tell me about your memories of swimming in the lido or...?

To be quite honest although I use to go into the lido a lot I wasn’t very adventurous regarding swimming. I would go in the shallow end but I don’t know whether you know that swimming pool went down into the middle so where the, I mean I never ever went down the slide. My brother and sister would but I wouldn’t, I was too scared but the slide was quite, but some, because the water use to come down with the slide, when you come down, the water would run down the slide so naturally they had the diving boards but they were in the middle where the deep bit was so of course they would go off the diving boards but I wouldn’t, well I wouldn’t even attempt to go up there. and then of course they had the little paddling pool at the back where people use to lay out on the flag stones, they were there then, and then I think they did have a bit of grass right at the back and then of course there was a period when it was closed because we had an outbreak of polio and...

Do you know when about that was, what year that was?

Forty nine, fifty odd, I should say it was in the fifties, I wouldn’t like to say what year because one of of my Dad’s customer’s boys caught it, and he was left with an iron, you know had to have his leg in irons, but I think, though not to do with the swimming pool, I think that we must have had an outbreak of that prior to that polio but I mean that was the last time I can remember polio being an outbreak, and I would have thought because Trevor must have been about six or seven and he was that much younger than me so I would say it was in the fifties but I wouldn’t like to swear to it but they had an outbreak and of course nobody went swimming for that particular summer at all. Because naturally we had the fever hospital which was Upney Lane, that was the fever hospital where whatsname because my sister had diphtheria when she was seven I think, six or seven. My brother and I had scarlet fever but they said a lot of it they thought might have been bought, we might have caught from the army people in the park coming back from abroad and things like that, or that’s what they always surmised, it was because we were in the shop, in and out the shop and the army people that were there, they assumed we caught it from because I can’t remember anybody else having it but then of course we were put into the fever hospital at Upney Because that’s what it was originally, was a fever hospital. The park really when you think of it, the amount of football, rugby, the latter part of the time you had cricket, but of course it wasn’t such a big pull as Valentines Park that was where you got the majority of the cricket.

Sorry you mentioned earlier that your Mother worked in the lido...

Yes.

Could you tell me a little bit about that for the tape?

Yes she use to work there selling the ice cream and also worked in the restaurant part of it and also I didn’t know until my sister told me, I suppose being that much older, that they use to hold functions there to do with the council, my sister thought it was to do with the Councillors and they, and she said apparently they were quite in them days, quite lavish things. I suppose they wouldn’t be classed that today, and they use to do like the waitress service for the meals and things like that. More waitresses than anything, but as to the actual, who put them on or what I don’t know. Because there was some talk at one time of putting other functions there but whether it was things they were thinking of doing because the indoor use to hold the wrestling matches because my Mum use to go down to there some times. Boxing and wrestling matches at the old indoor swimming pool. They use to cover the pool area and have football and wrestling, certain times of the, during the winter season. Naturally during the early part or the middle part of the year and that was used mainly by swimming and that. But during the winter xx when it wasn’t now and again they would have err wrestling or boxing matches, because I used to go there, but in the actual, because they had sort of like um whether it was where my Mum used to work they had also and outside area for you to get drinks and things, that you didn’t have to be in the pool area they had a kiosk court what you would called today I supposed she worked I think there for quite a period, but as I said I think during the err off season xxx[areas] they had this lunches according to the system they worked as more or less glorify um waitress there for the functions, but I don’t know of any particular function or anything that went on or what I don’t know, but err so that must had been in the probably err before the War, because I cant imaging it after the War so it must had been before the War, must had been before she was married, so or just might had been just after she was married so it must had been between like err thirty five and when the War probably started in thirty nine [phone ringing] so it must had been in that particular era [phone ringing]

Ooh sorry

[Hello ooh can I ring you back Margret I got somebody here at the moment, I will ring you back, are you at home? Ooh ok then, yeah ok then bye]

Sorry about that [laughing]

That’s ok, so really I don’t know much about that my Mum didn’t talk other then that where she met my auntie in there so, she most be working, and I should say to you probably only there for two or three years on and off you know during the seasonal part so I should say it must had been in the nineteen err thirties to thirty nine, the war era some where there because as I was saying my Father I think went in the shop in thirty six or thirty five so I could had been, round that period, but um as I say I cant remember because I can only remember the um fountains, the two big fountains in the err Lido and the um they had err a sort of a café bar this side as you went in, along this side of the err what is the name, it was a glass, a bit like a glass house, um like a glass house inside the actual swimmer pool area, so I assumed the kiosk bit must had back on to it some how , but the actual glass area so as you went into because the entrance was that far end, err you went through the turn table there and the turn left you went, you could go to this and have a sandwich and cup of tea or coffee I supposed more for the parent I supposed the children in the Lido, that way you went to the lockers and the changing rooms, and then you went through fountains into the actual pool area, so um and you could go to this restaurant from the pool area, so I supposed there was, it must had been a path that went through that part of it, because you wouldn’t have gone through parent wouldn’t have gone through the fountains to get to it, so they must have been a side way I as well, and that was there and of course then you got the err, pool and the two fountains and then the other side of the pool you got your um diving board and your um, um I cant think of a name for it now the err, slide

All right

And then the other side you got the children paddling pool, I mean not the big paddling pool, which was outside of the park, outside of the err the Lido but they had a small one inside, the younger children the members of the family went in, um

And did they have lifeguards in the lido?

Yes, yes, they always had a lifeguard there

Can you remember the lifeguard at all, um in any way like you know?

Well other then that, they would be in a white trousers and a vest or something that was all, I mean I cant remember anything, and also they had err a rod, you know they would hock you out, also you had cut off areas like um I supposed where is suitable for younger children to be in, and you could used the xxx to sort of balance yourself on

Ok

You know because they were what is the name, and also I think they did have xxx [cut mates] there, that you could used you know to sort of help your self, um I can’t and

Where the lifeguard quite strict or were they

Ooh yes, I mean I think, I should say um yes because err you could, you play about but you could only go so far you know, if they thought something was a miss they would have you out of the water and you would go out, whether you pay to go in or whatever wasn’t matter they thought you wont doing what you were told, like the diving board and the um, um the slide um you wont allowed to play about I mean am not saying that you didn’t , because naturally they cant keep their eyes on every body, or running around err you know, you round around to but naturally when it was packed because sometimes that used to be, you would queue more or less down that side bit of that, was the name to get in, and once a certain amount, if err that you been queuing there half hour just your had luck if you cant go in because I supposed they, I mean I don’t know as a child but they are supposed once all the because you used to have err a metal tag, they you put in your hand, they gave you err locker number and key, you had to keep that safe, and so I supposed they must have know by the amount of ticket or tags whether the place was getting too full or what I don’t know, but sometimes it used to be packed because naturally people had there towels and what’s the name on err and you would be out there, I think I cant I have a feeling they did had one or two deck chairs, but not that amount whether it was where the cafe area was, because there was a railing because you won’t allowed into the water unless you have paid your money to go in, so whether some parent could go in with young children but couldn’t go that side of it I don’t know, but there was err the concrete um garden bits because they had um flowers or whatever in concrete, they had metal um barrier so you had to go through the fountains if you done as you were told, there was metal um railing and you had to go into the fountains because the idea was washing your feet before you went in to the water, that was I grew to understand after wards, but now just as children you don’t realised that, but the idea was make sure your feet were clean to go into the water, but whether that was properly or not I don’t know, um of course naturally people took their picnics and everything and over there and they would be over there whole day

Did you ever do that take a picnic over?

Err well I supposed we, I cant remember in the swimming that much in the actual park it self we always took err we would go out for the day, see you take it when we were children, um because as I said the war ended, what sixties so I must be about six, seven you took sandwiches a bottle of lemonade or xxx and you would be gone for the day, and you would had to take that bottle back, because of your money on the bottle

Right

So you didn’t leave a mile of litter everywhere, well I don’t like to say what we did with this the paper of our sandwiches [laughing]

[Laughing]

But generally you didn’t, you sort of um had your um, but you always went out with something and you are gone for the day, I mean um whether you stayed in Barking Park went un to um Mayesbrook or went over to South Park we didn’t go to South park much, because there wasn’t much there, but we often walked to Wanstead

Wow

Or another thing we used to do which we really, which we done a few well one particular Sunday we did it, we err because we were made to go to Sunday School every Sunday we weren’t allowed not to we went to the Baptist tabernacle in Linton Road, thou we were christening at St Margret but we because our friends lived over the Park went there, we went there and err um we did on a few occasion walked to Woolwich to go on the ferry, and this particular Sunday we did and God by the time we got home our parents were out scouting for us, because we had walked there we spend what the money we had and I can remember coming up the Becton bypass and one of us I cant remember who it was found a six pence and said ooh we are nearly enough home we could have get the bus [laughing]

[Laughing]

Because we used to go down by the rushing water quite a bit through Becton through the rushing water in to Barking

Ok

Over the err um what I supposed I don’t know whether they called it part of the A13 now or not, Becton where the big concrete pillars the bridge [noise] the um because when I was a child err back of the rushing water they had gipsy often there, not all the time

Ok

But the old types gipsy you know where they had them wooden caravans, I don’t mean caravan like you see today, but on wheels, we used to err often err cut through the err rushing water there where all the um, it must be where the sewage farm is now, we used to walk through there on to the Becton bypass and we used to often play down by the rushing water on the err barges, that used to be tied up at the town key

[Laughing] it doesn’t sound like a very safe game init

Yeah, we were fortunate enough as children to be able to be out and about with out our parent I supposed worrying to that extent

Ok

Also we were I supposed in a group, err we were never sort of on our own there was always well three over the park, two girls and there younger brother and then there was my sister and me and my brother, so it was six of us and a couple of friend, one of the boys in um his elder brother didn’t used to come with us much, because we used to get so I supposed dirty and what is the name, he was a bit what is the name xxx[Tidy] his younger brother belong to the um British legend

Ooh ok

Because he was one of the last one, to go on to National Service, he went out to um the jungle of err where was it? He went out xxx or somewhere, he was the last age group to go on to National Service which is my age, so he is seventy two, the eighteen stopped that after he done his National Service because my brother never went National Service but um as I said um there wasn’t many places in Barking I supposed we didn’t go level crossing we used to go over the two bridges what the name on the level crossing because then you had to wait for the level crossing to open and shut those big wooden gates like you see in villages now we used to have to wait for the train to go through before, you err went across the level crossing but err as I said I supposed that is it Barking has alter such a lot, would you like another drink?

Ooh am fine thank you

Are you sure

Am ok if you want to get your self

No, no am fine ok

Before we turned the tape on you told me a lovely story about the giant chess board

Um

And I was wondering if you could tell me that again

Yeah, err the giant chess board was um naturally played by retired gentle man, well naturally everybody else I supposed would had been at work but they used to come there often late morning, early afternoon, and play chess and of course we used to get told off if we was making a noise round there because or often they used to sit there and xxx[meet] and chat I supposed as elderly people but the board it self they had like to us it look like a xxx , it a long green box, that they had the err round disc in which might, well heavy to pick hold off, because they were um, I think they were concrete with a wooden what the name with a metal handle that you could pickup with , but naturally they had um special pools that they naturally shifted them about the board and it was a chess board or whether you class it as chess err

Or draught

Draughts it a draughts board because well chess and a draught board are very similar but of course naturally with the draught board it black and white and of course naturally as kids we didn’t care which square we put it on, but you would get this big and they were long and I should say they must have been, four, five or they might have seen four or five feet long this pools, to lift up you try and lift one of them disc, so of course we often used to pick the disc up easier, by hand of course we didn’t understand draughts then, but we used to play, but the men used to play draughts quite a bit, but at one period I think they used to keep the thing locked, whether it because they were more, whether the children took the draught and put them elsewhere or what I don’t know , but they did locked it for a period, but how it come that we could get access to it at a certain time, whether for some reason it hadn’t been locked or what I don’t know, or whether after probably finding the children playing with them probably might have lost one or two of the draught I don’t know, but we used to play with them, and of course because it back on to the bowling ground, you always got the park keepers round that area, because you were not allowed in the bowling green because that was specifically kept for, and it was beautiful that bowling green really it was, um I mean they spend hours on that lounge in the bowling green, and you would often try and look over the xxx to see them playing, but err and also they had a big fountain round at the back there I don’t know whether that is still there, it was err what can I say, it was a xxx um err can I say the colour was, it wasn’t pink and it wasn’t red, it was sort of like a deep pink but not um not flash, it was a bit xxx and it had sort of like gray or black xxx bits in it, and it was ooh I should say a good xxx[eight foot or more high] it had a big err and the water used to come out in four places, and they had metal cups on a chain

Ooh

And err I mean naturally I don’t know what, I can’t remember them been there all the time, but you could feel you xxx and the water come out of a man’s mouth, and you could and it lad in the err basin of the err what the name, and the fountain was very -very similar in shape form what I can remember, as the ones in the swimming pool, in the um open now swimming pool, only tile is different colour, because I think they where white colour where this was this sort of deep pink, and sort of it had xxx[speckle] in it like black or gray in it, and err right next to it was another one of those water fountains that we used as kids, because naturally um our parent wouldn’t have drinking out of a metal cups, err other people might have been using where you could used the little gray one, because you press the button and you had to put your mouth over it and usually ended up with more water on your face then anywhere, but that was right near that, but that was right by the bowling green there, only the err where the railway is now, you know where the um side gate was? When I was a kid that was open, that was never ever closed, that side gate err the level crossing when it was moved from the back of the park to here, because I don’t know when they moved that

The railway

The railway, why they moved it from the back of the park, because it was over by the err um stream between the lake and the stream originally, err lox ford end not South Park but Lox ford end, used to turn on the turn table there and then come, because you had the water what we used to called water fall you know where the water flow from the stream, from across the road, do you know where the Mosque is?

Um

There is a stream running by the Mosque xxx [Tanner Street]

Yeah, yeah

Where Tanner Street and xxx [Fanshawe Avenue] meet

Ooh yeah

There was a stream we used to often play over there, because the stream used to feed into our stream, and I don’t know whether that was what top up the lake, kept the lake, the water there because there was another um where the train used to end up the other side, there was another stream where often you couldn’t go because it had a railing, now what we used to do, was hold on the railing and go round the outside of it, it was a concrete um thing, so whether they were err gates or places to monitor the flow of the water, because the water then goes in to South Park drive, and goes up the side of South Park drive, so whether it was sort of a monitoring xxx [what the name] of the water I don’t know, but of course we used to go round it, or over it um because we used to go over there, and of course also we used to xxx part time we used get the courting couple over there, because of the long grass, because they didn’t keep that cut like they did the rest of them, I mean they used to keep them lounge absolutely perfect in that park, where the err, round um where the memorial is, they had um round um big round beds of flowers, and err they had the seat there where you could seat and err also along the lake you also had deck chairs, you had xx of during the summer period, I mean where they put them, during the err, I think they had a shed along there, along between the boat house, and what was where the back of the err the gardeners place was, I had a feeling that had a wooden shed where they kept the deck chairs, but all the summer, the deck chairs would be out down by the on the grass xxx between the grass xxx and the paving before the lake, you would had family sitting there, picnicking and everything, I mean that park was packed as xxx when we were kids

Yeah

Really was

I mean you mention then about err how it sort of neatly manicure everything was, do u remember any of the gardeners that used to work there

Well as I said, the only, well I can remember seeing the gardeners

What did they wear uniform at all

Yes, yes they wearing um black trousers black jacket and peak caps and it had park keeper across the cap, but whether they had names on them I wouldn’t like to say, I didn’t know any of them, but we did had one, and they rode bikes, err used to go round the park on bikes, because the time we used to, whether they where signing on or signing off, their days work or what I don’t know, but they had, you know like police man used to have xxx[cap]?

Yes

Naturally if it is raining, I supposed they wore a xxx [cap] and if you got caught or doing something you shouldn’t which we had on the grass, ooh the grass there you won’t allowed on any of the grass where the flowers beds and the xxx were, but naturally as children you wanted then xxx to play hide and seek, I mean you didn’t want to play hide and sick in the middle of the grass where you were allowed, because there is no way to hide, but in them xxx they had little metal thing about, I supposed two foot off the ground, keep off the grass, and you were not allowed on there, and the park keepers where very strict, and it was kept nearly well I supposed as good as the bowling green, that grass was of course if you got caught on there and they chase you off, or call out you would run for it, and then you would get one of them that we knew, and he was quite a xxx, and I can still see his face, he was known to us as bent nose, he got a broken nose, well it looks as if he had his nose broken, because it was bent and we used to say bent nose is coming, and we had to run for it, and of course how, but if come near you, xxx that xx[cap] if he got it, or sometimes they would have it rolled up in their back, on the back of their seat on the bicycle but if they thought they would get hold of, they hit you with it, if they could get near you, but of course you, there would six, or seven of you, xxx here and there and everywhere, the poor chap park keeper wouldn’t know where he was going, would he, but the park keepers where there the whole of the time I mean, I shouldn’t had thought you would have seen much of that park, after an hour visit not seen one or two park keepers, they were walking around all the time, well also they might have been doing jobs but you didn’t realised it, err but they were there all the time, to keep an eye on children I supposed, well I supposed you xxx, also like picking the flowers if you wanted to pick a flower or anything got caught, you know or whatever, you got err what the name or they would say, and if they said it you take no, you wouldn’t err what is the name, you know that they would report you, to your parent because the problem is naturally park keeper, you probably didn’t realised it, they knew you parent, well unfortunately been in a shop, we couldn’t go anywhere without been what the name, because I know my brother was always mourning to me, ooh I can’t do anything it always my fault

[Laughing]

My Dad used to say, well you are known, well known, your mates they don’t know where they lived, do they, but they know where you come from

[Laughing]

And of course he used to get really upset over it, because he was always in to trouble, you know doing things you shouldn’t be, or being somewhere where he shouldn’t be, but that was it, park keepers I supposed kept an eye on you for your family sake or whatever, but err I should say they must have been quite a few park keepers over there, it wasn’t just one or two, I wouldn’t have thought, but um no, but err

It was really lovely story there it is quite amazing

Yeah, and of course then there was the lake, we was always on the lake, you had the err, the length of the lake, the children end was the end by South Park Drive, and they had a little boat shed there, a small one where the paddle boat where kept, and the err breaking of point I think is still there now, from what I can remember of it err, I went through there last Thursday I think it is still there because, you see the xxx you were only allowed in that small triangle

Ok

Children were, unless they were with an adult err, so that, this the South Park end was for paddling boat where you used to um, used your hands and they used to turn round little paddles in the side of the boat, when you used to used your feet to you know like a tricycle I supposed or a go-karting type thing, but this where small boats, and they have a err boat keeper there, and um he would had a pool and he had to give you lots half an hour for you money, and then he call your number in because each boat was number, and you would have to come in, and if you didn’t he would had long high length xxx and he would get in the water and make sure you come in, because naturally there would be a queue for the boat, the other end of the um lake was, um where the rowing boat or xxx we used to called them, which often well the xxx only seated one the rower, and what they used to do the actual seat used to go up and down as it is rowing, this sort of what is name err but then they had bigger ones where you could have two in them, and you used to able to swap over rowing, with your partner, you had um ropes on them that guarded the err um as the rowing facing you, you are got your back, and you got the two ropes that pull the err little paddle thing at the back, that turned you right or left, and you used to have to go right way round the islands, you were never allowed to go other than clock wise, if you did they have you out of the boat, and out off the lake, you had to go the right way round, and then of course I don’t know when they came in, the motor boat came in and err course that really delighted everybody been able to do it without any effort, but the same with that, but that I think the motor boat you are only allowed pass the first two islands, or up to the you had to turn at the end of the third islands, where with the err rowing boat you could go to more or less to where the children started, but with the motor boat you won’t allowed to go, because they always told us the depth of the lake wasn’t deep enough for the motor boat, whether that was true or not but that’s what they told you, you was only allowed, to go that point, then you had to turn round and come back, and then course when we were very-very young they had to xxx[phoenix] the big paddle boat, um I understood the last one was two, but I had a feeling they did have a xxx[phoenix] one as well originally whether it was err replace with the xxx[phoenix] two whether the xx[phoenix] one was when the lake first open or what I don’t know, but I think the one we had as children was the xxx[phoenix] two

I had heard from someone I can’t remember who, um but there was original a xxx [phoenix] one and unfortunately it got burnt so they replace it with the xxx [phoenix] two but I don’t know depth of the truth in that

It is quite possible, could had done but I don’t remember any of that

Do you remember riding on the paddle steamer then?

Yes, yes it was

Can you describe that?

Well it rather reminded me as a child, err rather like going on the ferry across the err Woolwich ferry, because of the rush of the water, the paddle was at the back of the boat and if you were at the back of the boat you could see that paddle going round and bringing up the xxx of the water, as you went round on it, and err naturally of course you had the bend wooden bend seat that you sat on, but at the back end as I say, you could see the paddles or the xxx of the water, but I had a feeling that it did had paddle either side of it, but whether they course the flow of the water or what or whether it was only back one, I can’t remember err really, but I can remember I mean been there that long, so what happen to it whether it was the up keep or what I don’t know, because it must have been the only the early part of my child hood that was there, or were it went or what I don’t know, but err no I should say I might have been on it, what I can remember once or twice not that much, and of course they had the little err kiosk by the err boat house where you could get ice cream and drink, they used to have couple of ladies there serving ice cream and drink by the lake itself, it was a little wooden hut and funny enough there was another fountain there, but that wooden hut, the same little grey fountain, so there must of been quite a few of them little fountain place

They kept you well hydrated

Hydrated yeah, yeah so we didn’t need the bottled water erm...what else can I remember...?

What about things like wildlife in the park? Do you remember any...I don’t know erm ducks or swans on the lake?

Well I suppose the only thing I can remember is the ducks or the swans, ducks and swans there wasn’t any geese, not when I was a child, or not that I can remember them, it was mainly swans and signets and ducks and drakes...erm as to...I can’t even remember as a young child squirrels even

Really?

No

[Laughs] there’s no shortage of them now

No now, well I’ve got a mile out here erm…birds naturally I suppose you don’t take that much interest in, in birds erm but naturally I think, as, as a child really I mean, even in my own garden when we were children there was the green finches, the erm robins, thrushes, blackbirds, naturally the sparrows, starlings, your woodpigeons and your pigeons, but as for erm...woodpeckers and erm kingfishers, though my father says he can remember seeing kingfishers and also...erm they used them at kingfishers at Beckton when they were building erm, not Beckton, Ford’s when they were doing that

Ah

The bottom of erm there, they...he said the stream there running along there where Ford’s was, he can XXXX, but at Beckton he said he can remember them, but I can’t say I ever remember seeing a kingfisher, I think...heron’s erm funny enough I saw one...well right up until they drained that lake there was one that used to come...whether it was the same one naturally I don’t know, but I used to at least...every two or three weeks see a heron at the bottom...at the back end...at South Park Drive end, before you come to what I used to call as the children paddling pool, used to...it had a nest there funny enough, or it had a big...looked like a nest, whether it was a heron’s nest or not I don’t know, but it used to be there and sometimes I used to see it actually in the stream, in South Park Drive

Ok

But whether it was the same heron or not, but two or three times, just...this last year I’ve seen it until as I say they drained the lake, and then I haven’t seen it since, though the water is now back in it, I can’t say...I go through there Monday’s and Thursday through the park...and...But I haven’t seen it back yet, but then probably...it might take a long while for it to come back erm...of course they did have rats

[Laughs]

Though luckily enough I can’t say I ever saw any though my sister fell in the lake...erm...and my cousin Peter who, who...XXXX said XXXX a rat chased her out of the park, she said it was a rat, and so did he, but whether it was or not, I don’t know, but I mean...but funny enough erm...last year I did see a rat in there and I thought oh coming from the allotments, but touch wood that’s the only one and time I’ve seen it...

[Laughs]

Cos I wouldn’t go near there again if it was...but erm...as for squirrels I can’t remember squirrels...erm...I can’t remember any other...you know water animals in the lake or anything XXXX...used to get moorhens now and again...

Sorry what are moorhens?

Erm they’re the little black one I think with the erm little red mark on the beak I don’t whether it’s the male or the female that has the red mark and the other one is...plainer but you...you used to get them now and again the moorhens, what we called moorhens, whether they have got a different name I don’t know, but we used to call them as moorhens, little black...they’re very feisty, very fighters...course you use to get the ducklings and the signets when they were in...What’s name cos they...the swans that’s why at certain times you weren’t allowed near those islands because the swans used to breed on the islands, the ones near erm Mayesbrook park end erm, Loxford Lane end, they used to often, well they did they lived...they had...I have a feeling they did when we were very young, have wooden...shelter places on there, those islands...or something whether it was for them breeding or what, I don’t know, or whether they monitored the egg, what’s name or not I don’t know, but I can’t think of any other...what’s name animals, course you used to get like, when the fair come, you used to have your donkey rides and all that sort of lark, when we were what’s name, they had the donkeys over there

Could you talk about the fair a little bit, if that’s ok?

Yes erm...course the fair when I was a child come every September and it always rained, we had the carnival...erm...the fair usually come in the Sunday before, and opened on the Thursday, was the first night....and it was Holland’s fair, Mr. Holland used to run the fair and erm....erm...they were the regular fair...family and they had the big caravan...beautiful wooden caravan it was and I don’t know whether...do you go in the park at all?

Yes

You know where the raised bed is before you come onto the grass...his caravan was always there

Right, so by the main lodge gate entrance

Yeah, yeah

Right ok

By there, the first piece of green on the park was where the Holland’s...erm own what’s name, they used to have these lovely big canteens what they had their water in, polish you could see your face in them, you know it was...really a fantastic...caravan they had, I mean some of the others were just as good I suppose, but naturally they were often smaller and course you had erm all your different rides, screaming Lizzie, your octopus, your XXXX walk, erm all the main things, the erm...Dodgem cars and your whip and your chair...chair-airplanes that went and of course they always had when I was a child, all the music was done by those erm...cards you know like they have for the organs, they had proper organs, like the horse...erm merry-go-round had the big painted erm figures on them and they had that music that was played by the organ and it was done erm, erm like you’d see the cards going up as it was playing through erm through the music through the wood and they were looked like big cardboard...pieces of cardboard with holes punched in and you’d see that going up...and the noise it was, well I suppose it was an entirely different, um, sound, than what you get today, because it was more like an organ sound. And course naturally they had all the little children’s rides, you know, the little ones where they weren’t usually done on motors, they were pulled, you know. They used a, er, get hold of them, they had probably six or eight metal strips and they’d pull them round by hand.

Crikey!

And the children would be on a, um, er, then course they had the um, er, bearded lady and the er, side shows. But the latter part of the time I don’t think, that sort of gradually seemed to dwindle out. But they had er, different side shows, that you’d see. Um...er...what other things? And course naturally they had the um, candy floss, and the um, sausages and things like that. Um, you’d smell the onions and the sausages being cooked, and you’d go right, and when they used to pour that er, crystals in to the little round dish in the candy floss to make the candy floss, it was sugar, and you could smell that um, strawberry sort of perfume smell. Um, and course naturally they had the carnival, they always had er, an actor or actress open the carnival.

Is there anything, names that you can remember that you’d like to mention for the tape?

Um...isn’t it funny how you can’t, remember the names?

[laughs].

My sister...

Sorry!

...probably would have done. If I ask me sister, and she can remember any of them...well the latter one of the one was when her eldest boy was only a little boy, and it was one of the singers, um...

[coughs].

He had a photo of er, him with this singer. Though I didn’t know her, but er, ain’t it funny...how you can’t think of them, actress and yet we had two or three from what I can remember, well known ones. If I asked her and she can remember of them, I’ll phone Francis and give her the names. In case she might be able to remember them.

Well if it’s ok, I mean I can pop in sort of next week to return the photo’s anyway, if that’s ok?

Oh yes, yes, yes. And I’ll ask her and see whether she remembers any of them.

Do you know when the carnival stopped happening? In Barking Park, and the fair?

[pause] We came out of the, what was Curtman’s, or what is now the pet shop, the year after decimalisation. And I think that was nineteen seventy...was it seventy one or seventy two (1971, 1972)? Decimalisation?

I’m afraid I don’t know!

I think it was, or was it sixty one or sixty two (1961, 1962)? No I think it was seventy. Whenever the decimalisation and I think they’d more or less started to dwindle then. Whether they’d stopped by then, I don’t think so. But I don’t think they went on for much longer after that. I think, I think what might have stopped a lot of it, because I don’t know when Holland’s stopped running, because I don’t think Holland’s do the fair there now. Now when I was a child, Holland’s done the fair every year. It was always one of the Holland family, either the father was there, or, I think his daughter took it on afterwards. But it was always run by Holland’s and they um, at the end of the fair, always had to clear the, the area and pay for the re-what’s name of the grass.

Crikey.

To get it back for the er, football season to start and that. They had to pay so much up front, to pay for the re-what’s naming of the park.

I can imagine...

Because it was a big area. That, the carnival, or the fair when I was there, went from that gate, er, from that er, flower bed, right the way up to um, that walkway is, is it St. Edward’s walk way? I think it’s St. Edward’s, ‘cause I think he opened that. ‘Cause me dad said he could remember Prince Edward coming to the Town Hall.

Oh, for the charter day?

Yeah. For opening...

In nineteen thirty one (1931)?

Yeah. And um, also I think one of the, I don’t know whether it was Edward or George, or one of the Royal Family opened the um, Ford’s um, estate. The er, not Ford’s itself, the er, council estate, come to the council estate. Um...

I’m just, in my head, I’m kind of imagining all the park keepers almost in tears that all of their grass had been ruined...

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and er, but as I say, the floats were very, very, very big, ‘cause they went in to Mayesbrook Park, and came out. Er, I think the prizes were, I’m not sure whether the prizes, the latter part of the time were given in Mayesbrook park, before they started. ‘Cause the, the carnival went round the town, and came in to the park...and of course then there was the bandstand when we had all the bands over there, the dancing, all the deck chairs used to be round the bandstand and you had to pay to go in to listen to the bands, erm...

Could you describe the band stand to me? ‘cause I heard it was quite original.

Yes I, I d-, I assume the round piece must still be, the concrete base must still be there ‘cause it was a, er where this is, it was at the er, the right er looking at this, the shed there was at right of it, and it was more or less I should say in line with er, the bowling green and the indoor bowling green and it was...let’s see there was one, two, three, four, must have been five pillars. Five or six concrete pillars with this big dome, green it was, er dome and part of it was glassed. You know like you have er, glass erm shutters or something on half of it, not the whole thing. Er, whether they were used to according to the erm wind or whatever I don’t know, and er, the band used to be up on the platform and the concrete round area was used for dancing. You could dance round on the concrete bit and then the rest of it between the concrete and the fence was grass, and they’d used to have the deck chairs out and you could sit and listen or whatever. And erm, I think like the Salvation Army and I suppose some of the ch-, er the erm military bands. Erm, I mean they weren’t there every week like, I think they only had them at probably weekends during the summer and things like that. But er, an ‘course it was fenced off, well because naturally you, er because the fair, you never paid to go in the fair, the fair was always free run, you didn’t pay to sort of like en-, enter in to that area, it was all open, what’s name, where like the band stand you pay, if they had got a band on a deck chairs you paid to go and sit down, and of course a lot of people used to stand on the outside and listen and what have you and watch erm...

I heard that they used to do the prize giving for the carnivals...

Oh yes, prob-, in the band stand

Ok

Yeh, yeh.

Could you tell me a little bit about that if you can remember..?

I can’t remember a lot about that, but I suppose they must h-, I can remember people being there, I suppose the mayor and er mayoress and one or two of the councillors and, and that and Hollands used to be down, ‘course the, whoever was the erm, er, notoriety that come in the, ‘cause they used to have a car and they u-, the person, as I say h-xxny, funny how I can’t think of one of them.

[Laughs]

Used to sit up on the back seat and ‘course naturally xxxx ‘course the whole of Longbridge road had be lau-, lined with people and children with streamers ‘cause they used to erm, used to have a mile of these paper streamers that you used to shake erm, penny or tuppence I suppose they use thrupence they used to be. But the erm, and he used to cut or she whoever it was used to come in the er back of the limousine, whose limousine it was I don’t know, but used to come in the car and the floats would be ahead and you’d had the band’s, you’d had the young erm, scouts, the er, erm, boys brigade and their bands and, and that used to be in between, and the, I think one of the forces band used to be there as well sometimes.

[coughs] Excuse me.

It was quite er really big turnout, well they used to, well the whole of, you’d have a job to move up Longbridge Road, either side with the amount of people and children ‘cause they’d come from all around the area because I don’t know of anywhere else that did a band. And you used to get all the erm, carnival queens from Billericay, er Southend, they’d all be included with their floats and it’s so you can imagine the amount of floats. You’d have probably three or four carnival queens beside your own and her, ‘cause naturally the Barking one would be the head of it and she’d have two ladies in waiting and the cart would be grassed, flowered and that they’d b-, be in their long dresses and that.

Sounds incredible.

It was really more like a “Disney” turn out. But they were at-, but ‘course I suppose as children you make a mile of it. I suppose probably it’s, elaborated in your mind because your, but they, the whole of the town would come to a halt that Saturday. And then they used to do the presenting of the er, prizes in the err, pavilion, erm, in the erm, well that’s what they u-, they didn’t call it the er, restaurant, they called it the “Pavillion”

Ohh

Was always known as the Pavillion.

It’s quite posh [laughs]

Er ha yeh, no it was def-, it’s only concrete inside and whatsaname but and it was always so dark in there, I can remember as a child. Any way the band stand was always there and they always had the, whoever was given the prizes out in there. ehh ‘had forgotten that side, of ‘course as children I suppose you, you weren’t interested in that side of it, you was more interested in the fair.

[laughing]

[laughing]

‘Course!

Toffee apples and your hot dogs and your, your candy floss and ...

All that good healthy stuff..

Honey comb

[laughing]

Yeh, you didn’t have burgers and all that sort of thing, erm, inn’t funny how I can’t think of one.

You’ll probably remember all of them tonight after I’ve gone [laughing]

Hmm, hmm...I don’t know whether Dudley Moore did one of the latter ones, I think he did.

Well he’s local so...

Yeh, yeh

...You know.

Yeh I have a feeling he might have done, I wouldn’t like to swear to it but I’ve a feeling he might have done one of the latter ones...Dudley Moore.....[pause]...erm, can’t think..[pause]..anything else in the park.

There is just one, I think we’ve covered quite a lot actually, you know, it’s amazing, so thank you very, very much! Um, but there’s just one thing , there’s this mystery of the blue police phone box, that Frances was telling me about!

I still say it was outside the park.

Could, could you talk about that a little bit if that’s ok, sorry.

Well, as, as children I mean I s’ppose er we used to use naturally, we used to walk to Ilford. I mean it was a lot different then I s’ppose as, as a child. But we didn’t use that end of the lake an awful lot other than if we was on the other side of the stream side, erm but that blue box was I’m positive outside the big park gates.

Outside the lodge?

Funnily enough I should of asked me sister whether she could remember it, but it was er, it was er, er policeman’s box, I mean not that they could go in it, it was erm, it was an emergency er, if there was problems or whatever, you’d sometimes see a policeman with it open and be on the phone, so I assume, well there was, there was a phone in it. Though as children we could never ever get at it, but I mean it wasn’t that we didn’t try I suppose to open it but it, I have a feeling it had a little handle on and they use to pull it open and they used to phone and I think the police use to use it as a, a calling if there was a problem or something like that. I mean, I don’t know exactly what it was for, but it, I assumed it was a police box for police men to use, because naturally I suppose, not having a walkie-talkie, I suppose they’d be on their beat, but it was. But um, Frances said, she thought it was inside the park. But I can’t remember it ever being, and I can’t see the point of having it in the park, how did the police men get to it?

[laughs].

If he wanted to use it of a night.

So, so what was the position that you thought it was, you, by the main gates...?

Yeah.

By the lodge?

Er, er, more or less on the pavement edge.

Ok.

By, on the road edge more, I mean I don’t suppose it was right on the edge but it wasn’t, er, because them er, gates, I think set back a bit. You know, they’ve got the pillars and they set back. Er, but I have a feeling it was er, in between the pavement and the roadside. Of the what’s name, and er, I can’t even remember it going. But it must have done, ‘cause it’s not there!

[laughs].

But whether they took it once they started using, erm, different um, communications what’s name’s, but I understood it was there for emergencies.

How early can you remember it being there, like what age would you have been?

All the, all the time. I can’t remember it not being there.

Ok.

But then I couldn’t stipulate, well as I say, I, I wouldn’t have been out and about until I was at least six because the war. Me parents wouldn’t have had us running around during the war, on our own, I shouldn’t have thought. So I mean, I must have been six or seven. So as far as I know it was there the whole of the time I was growing up. But as to when it was put there, or when it was taken away, I don’t know. Um...because the garage, is been there...course the um, the Triangle, which is the er, well it’s not a gardens now, but when I was a child that was gardens. That, they, I think just recently paved it over and just put two or three trees, but that was Tanner Street. Because going to Northbury School, because er, Queen’s Road, you come down Queen’s Road, but now it’s sort of more like a cut through for cars in to Ilford I think. But when we were kids, Queen’s Road was quite a wide road, and you come down in to er, Loxford, Tanner Street and the Triangle, what we call Triangle, ‘cause a couple of me school mates used to live in the houses which one is now um, was where Ms. Massey, where I went to school the latter part of the time, which was er, um, Pittman College. But is now the driving er, test station.

Ah right.

That is there, where me two friends lived, one lived next door, and the other one lived next door but that, and they went to Northbury School with us. Um, that was the Triangle, went in to Queen’s Street, where the pub was and the sausage factory, and, and that was up that end. Um, but the, as I say, we used to naturally walk to Ilford. Also the trolleybuses used to go to Ilford. Well, see, naturally as kids, we didn’t have pocket, that amount of pocket money, we always walked to Ilford. Now and again we’d get a trolleybus, um, if we was with our parents. They’d er, what’s name. Well course, the trolleybuses went up to Ilford Broadway, and course er, most of that was really, er, just shops. And course you had the Pioneer market, um, and course that was the way we went to Valentines Park. ‘Cause we used to go other there now and again. Er, ‘cause the latter part of Valentine’s Park, that was when Steve was young, I suppose he must have been about five or six, was the first and only time I’ve ever witnessed a whirlwind.

Oh really?

And I was in Valentine’s Park with him, and er, we was in the swing yard and there was a la-, er, a lake just in front of, well a little while away from the swing yard, and the dog started barking, people had one or two dogs, and they started howling. And when everybody turned, you could see this whirlwind coming across the park, and it come across the lake, and it went in to the swing yard, and by then the children were screaming their heads off, and you were absolutely covered in dust, in your eyes, in your hair, everywhere. And you was in this whirlwind, as it went out of the, the other way.

You must have been terrified!

And it was the first time, and the, it was, it was a bit frightening, though I can’t say I was terrified, well of course I was a woman in me, what, well I must have been thirty.

Right.

So I wasn’t a child, but I’d got um, me sister’s youngest boy with me. And I, it was something I’d never ever experienced in me life. And it come right across the grass, across the lake, and you literally saw it moving along.

That’s incredible.

But it couldn’t have been a big one, but I mean it was, but as I say, it was the dogs that warned you to start with ‘cause they started howling and making a funny noise, and then course everybody looked.

Dogs have a sense don’t they.

And course you could see it approaching. And there was nothing you could do about it, ‘cause it was going at such a speed, but it seemed as if it was going in slow motion [laughs].

[laughs].

But er, and I think that was the latter part of the time, Steven, what is he now, he’s...thirty eight, so I suppose that was about thirty years ago.

Wow.

Yeah. But um...

That’s incredible.

Hmmmm.

That’s fantastic, thank you very, very much for spending the afternoon with me, I really appreciate it.

Yeah, yeah, no, that’s ok!

And I really have taken up your whole afternoon haven’t I?! [laughs].

No, no! But I mean, would you like another drink?

Oh I’m fine, thank you.

Or a cold drink?

I’ve got some apple juice in my bag actually, so...

Oh, I’ve got some orange juice if you’d like that?

Oh no, I’m fine! But thank you very much!

Oh are you, yeah, no, that’s ok.

Um, I will stop the tape now if that’s ok?

Mmmm.

Yeah, I’ll just stop that.

[tape ends]

Interview Details

Project name: Barking Park Oral History Project

Interviewee: Pauline Howe

Interviewer: Claire Days

Transcribed by: Claire Days

Date: 31st August 2011

Length of interview: 147 minutes

Archive Ref: 2011_esch_BaPa_05

2011_esch_BaPa_06

2011_esch_BaPa_06

Ask me, my date of birth did you say?

Yeah I’ll ask you that in a second, if it’s ok, I’ll just put that erm…oh if I just sit that on there, cos then that’s…that’s facing you then. Ok so this is Claire Days interviewing Mrs Tingey for the Barking Park Oral History Project, on the…5^th of September 2011. So could ask you to say your full name and date of birth please?

17^th of January 1918, I think it makes me ninety four

[Laughs] and what’s your full name please?

Iris Tingey, I was a Miss Clement, my father was very well known in the town

Ok

There was no…I doubt there was anybody else at that period left in Barking, because we have got so many new people, I very much doubt, if there’s any people of my period left here, so many have moved away.

Of course

Mmh

And where were you born?

Where?

Yes

Erm, I wrote it all down in case I forgot

Oh right ok [Laughs]

Erm in Barking, and lots of people wouldn’t know it, it’s facing the railway, and our house was the only one in the road, and it was could Loxford house, Loxford Road, just off the Victoria road, Barking, that was on the boarders of Barking and Ilford, erm…yes we lived there until dad built our houses up at XXXX gardens from that block of Shirley gardens to Lyndhurst on the Longbridge road…he was the only builder in those days and we moved in there from Loxford house where I born into Longbridge road when I was fourteen,…and then erm…one of my…more important jobs was working for the government in war room during the war, forty feet underground,…but I'm not telling you where it was…

[Laughs] Is it still a secret?

It was yes, we were sworn to secrecy, it might be used again, I think, sometime later, never know, erm so dad was a builder, the only one I think in Barking when I was a child and we moved into Longbridge Road when I was fourteen and Barking was very different then, very different…when we were children we used to walk along Longbridge road here into Upney Lane and Upney Lane was a Lane with hedges, believe it or not, there were four lovely little cottages left, I doubt if they’re still there, I doubt it, they were opposite the entrance to the hospital, four original old cottages at the foot of the station hill, which is Upney station., and it was right…these cottages were right opposite the hospital entrance and of course that’s all changed, it’s all houses now, isn’t it? Very different from when I was a child, and we’d walk along here on a Sunday afternoon four children…and the other two left home, cos I was the eldest…and we’d walk down Upney Lane which was a Lane as I say and the original Lane was behind Upney Lane and it was hedges and then they made a road there really to go over the station and also…when the hospital was built, but erm…no times have changed, ties have changed. I just can’t believe I’m ninety-four

[Laughs]

When I got to eighty, I thought oh it’s near the end of my life, what do I want to do? But I’m still here at ninety-four and I have five lovely grandchildren…and erm the youngest one has settled in Japan, marrying a Japanese girl, they got married last Christmas…yes I’ve got one granddaughter and four grandsons, I’m…very grateful and my granddaughter called yesterday, with her mum, she’s moved over to the other side of the river…it’s nearer London where she’s moved, somewhere near Black Heath, nearer to London I think she said and…they live Lyndhurst gardens, so she’s nearer London where she’s moved, but god she’s...coming up thirty/thirty-one now I can’t believe that

[Laughs] when you think of her do you still imagine her to be a small child?

Yes, yes…erm Frank’s around somewhere erm…yes tomorrow I’ve got…a gentleman coming about my ears I think it is yes ears…

Right ok can you remember what schools you went to in the area

Yes, I…went to North Street School

Ok

Which they changed later on to Northbury school…its where the church road bridge is, you go down an alleyway, but we lived at Loxford house, so we were the other side and the railway came in front…not near the house we had a field opposite and a big high wall but when you’re upstairs you could see the railway and the trains and…when we weren’t well as children, small children, mum would let us go and sit and look out the window, we’d sit by the window believe it or not…and the trains, the steam trains used to XXXX up and down there, it was like a siding and mum would give us a bit of paper and a pen [Laughs] and we’d write all the numbers of the engines, just for us to do something when we were getting over measles or one of those children’s illnesses…

Did you enjoy that?

Oh yes we enjoyed, we had a lovely…lovely home life, mum was a dear she was a…a country girl Great Leigh’s n Essex, but my dad came down at ten years old from Dundee, so how they met, I will never know [Laughs]

[Laughs] so why did your mother moved London…to the Barking area, do you know?

Yes, when they…they were in the farming business…when they were children, they’re parents were Great Leigh’s, Essex, it’s lovely countryside down there and…she moved, I think she was about ten when they moved to Beckton…and they had a little cottage there and I think they’ve been pulled down now…I think so but there were about four or six of them and they lived there with the family, at…it up at a high slope, and I think it was a coal…huge lumps of coal on the way to Woolwich…I doubt, they’re probably all built on now, there were huge areas of coal and coke on the corner and then they built the bypass at the back there…yes times have changed

Did you have any brothers or sisters?

Yes I had three sisters…and two brothers, my eldest sister went to Australia with her family and then 19’…1969 or ’70 I went out to visit her and I was so thrilled because, and I think she was too, bless her…she was ten years older than me, and I went I was about 69 or 70 and she was very ill, it was most unfortunate, but I felt I had to go, it was very strange, but I couldn’t get a sailing date and that was October I had this letter from her daughter saying mother wasn’t very well, that’s all I knew, but I felt I had to go…and they’ve had been out there twenty years, and we both cuddled one other and cried, and I stayed with them a fortnight then I went to…live with somebody else, another relation that went out there, and I was away from Barking for fourteen months…I was so glad I went cos I was only there very short…matter of weeks when my sister passed away…she was a dear, she really was, and she loved all wildlife like myself and I’ve belonged to the…RSPCA….birds RSPB, I belonged to them for years now, I think I must have been one of the first people that joined to dear old Bill Oddie, I think it was in those days, I think he was the head of the birds then, it was to do with wildlife, I watched all wildlife, always…and we always had two dogs when I was a child, when in the house and one outside, dad having a builders yard you can imagine we needed someone to keep an eye on all the timber and bricks that were brought in…in the back…of the house, and the house got a direct hit I understand during the war and erm…they’ve rebuilt it, somebody took me round there a few years ago now and every building…was nothing, nothing like…our old house was, nothing at all, but anyway, erm, mother would have been in that house but she had gone round shopping to Charlie XXXX green grocer, everybody knew Charlie, lovely family, Charlie XXXX, and mother had gone round to get some fruit and vegetables, otherwise, she wouldn’t have been here, the bomb dropped in the erm…tributary of the roading was at the side of the house…and the bomb dropped in the…bank of the river, well it was a tributary of the roading so it wasn’t wide, but it was quite wide when it’s at the side of the house and the bomb dropped in the mud on the bank at the side of the house, the house was shattered, it had to be rebuilt, had to pull it down and mother had just gone shopping round at Charlie XXXX, that was a wonderful, wonderful day for all the family, and erm I had gone up to Retford then with the baby, my baby, that was erm…oh about ’41 I went up there 1941, because the bombing started here and that’s when my parents said oh get out of Barking and my sister was already lived at Retford, cos her husband was in the army up there, so she got me someone to stay with, right near her and we used to go out with both our babies in the…the prams that we’d hired up there cos we couldn’t take them on the train, but erm I was up there fourteen months yes, but oh so glad it was mum that drew me back, and of course when I got back to Barking, we had four guns opposite here, four…

And that’s Barking Park?

In the park, yes opposite

Do you describe them?

Well they built I think a cricket changing building, this is the swimming pool I can see, they had just painted a big wall, all cream…I think it’s the swimming pool that was there, yeah making good use of it I hear

They are yes

That’s good, because it was a waste, we use to go there when it first opened…and erm…they had two beautiful fountains either end they really were beautiful and I was told…erm that was the largest swimming pool in London and then Wembley bought one to beat us, by about a couple of feet I think it was [Laughs] but we were at first the largest open aired swimming pool in England…or at least in London, I don’t think are any…outside…open aired one built that time I don’t think s, but it was a lovely pool, and it was deep in the middle nine foot six and then it graduated down to about two foot six either end but it was massive, really massive, so I’m glad their making use of it, so someone I think it was in the paper about it, I think…but erm no when I think when we used to walk Sunday afternoon down Upney Lane…and we’d walk down Upney Lane into Ripple Road, turn right at the bottom there into Ripple Road and then we’d go all thorough the town and back to Loxford house

[Laughs]

By then we were worn out being young children [Laughs] and my father used to put the baby, who was only about three or four, my dear brother who died, he was a baby of the family, so there were four girls… I’m pressing on it…there were four girls and two boys…time I got used to this…I had another one first of all and it wasn’t as big as this, but my daughter saw them advertised…and she phoned or did something and a man came down and brought this and it was so much, better then the little one I had, which I filled then, it wasn’t wide enough for a big person, because I sleep in here and I have done now for over five years, night and day…I don’t sleep normally in the day, but erm if I got out of bed I just couldn’t get back, because I have to lift this right leg and I had to get in on the left leg and this leg I couldn’t lift off the floor, so that’s why I stayed in the chair, it’s very comfortable I must say that and I can go full out, just my head up slightly, so that’s alright, I’m lucky

Yeah that sound quite good [Laughs]

Yes dear old Frank…he never had any children and he lost his wife…at fifty-eight…and I knew him slightly thorough the Barking historical…and erm…then we met at the shops…sounds like a trumped up story but it was the fish shop, we met in the fish shop, the wet fish shop…on the…the left side of Upney Lane as you…one of the last shops I think…yes it’s next door to the chemist isn’t it on Upney Lane…and that’s where I met him…and he said ‘I thought you’d gone to Australia’ I said ‘I did, but I came back’ [Laughs]

[Laughs]

And erm we had a small chat, I said ‘I must go, I’ve got someone coming home’ and I erm just think I wanted to get away I don’t know why, he’s so kind and it was only thorough Barking Historical, I knew him slightly, he was erm…the one who started it

Mmh ok

Barking historical…yes he’s erm ninety-four last…April…

Can you remember the very first time that you went to the lido?

When it first opened dear, when it first opened, I should I think I was thirteen or fourteen…and people use to come from London down it was the only open aired pool, so big and the fountains were lovely, I’m wondering if they’ve crumbled by now

Erm I can actually tell you, they’ve actually preserved the fountains

They have?

Yes

Oh good

So they’re still in there

Oh cos they were lovely, they were lovely, and it’s very big isn’t it, if you’ve been over there

Oh of course

Very big pool

Erm unfortunately the pool’s no longer there, because they’ve dug that out and they’re going to have a wet play area for children

Oh that’s good

So it’s so much a pool anymore, but there’s sort of a you know wet area they can play and paddle

They used to have one like that a play area and it was concrete and it filled with a little water, right next door to the left of the pool, what happened to that?

Erm I don’t think that’s there anymore unfortunately

Oh got rid of it, yes, well it wasn’t used much. If I went over the park with the dog, there was no children in that pool ever, very, very seldom…and having a dog…cos I was at work and as soon as I came home from the town hall, I was in the education department…and then I ‘d take the dog over the park, but there was…any old days when it first opened they’d be queuing up to get in the pool, it was really lovely, really lovely and until they, until they built I think it was Wembley, I’m sure it was…and erm that was the biggest one in London, in London or it might have been in England, or even in Europe, but it was lovely, it really was and I know, my daughter who is now sixty-two [Laughs] I took her over there when she was four and she was petrified at first and we were in the shallow end, I think it was two foot six or something and she was about four, so of course she was frightened so…I didn’t force her to back, she didn’t like it, so we came home, but there were always crowds of people over there, I don’t them, the only one in London at that time…yes you know the houses, you go that way walking sometimes, from Shirley to Lyndhurst, dad built that block and the one of the corner of Shirley, he built for a doctor XXXX who was a doctor in Upton Park and…and that was very, very, very sad…it got a direct hit and his wife and doctor were both killed…very sad and then of course the house next door caught alight, with the explosion and four out of dad’s six houses, there were six in XXXX six houses and then the big double fronted house, he did and sold two, he was building for someone, he didn’t own the ground, I forgotten who it was and I think it might have been Mr Blake if he was still around cos he was the man in Barking Arthur Blake at that time…

Why was he the man in Barking? Why was he so well known?

Blake?

Mmh

Erm…I think he brought lots of properties

Ok

And he’s erm…what was it called…his offices were over the clocktower…when…that was a terrible shock…the night…I think it was in the April, the terrible bombing in Barking, terrible bombing and the clocktower that dad built got a direct hit and the shops around it went down, but some of them are still there I’ve been told…well cos I know East Street, I don’t know if the roundabout cuts the top out, does it? East Street?

Erm

Used to be Dunes on one corner and Boots on the other corner and he built, it wasn’t boots when dad did it, it was another firm, big grocers and there was always the gas company in the Ripple Road side and round the corner I think there were four which lovely…lovely bays and they were dad’s as well, he built when that place on the corner with the clock on the top, I think it had three floors and then the clocktower and that got a direct hit, wasn’t that unfortunate…to have…I’m sure it wasn’t for that, that they, they were aiming, I’ve think probably for the guns here…that’s what I think and we had a terrible night and mum and dad said ‘you must get away with the baby’ and my sister was already in Retford, so of course she found me somewhere to stay, and it was very nice, we hired prams by the month [Laughs] well we didn’t know how long we’d be staying, then in the end we brought them…well we couldn’t take a big pram on the train could we? When I think back, I had the baby five months in my arms and a big case cos I had to have clothes for both of us, for hot and cold weather, I don’t know how I did it now, when I think back, it was an effort wasn’t? Big case and I was away fourteen months…when I came back it got worse…it got worse with the four guns opposite, they were huge guns?

Could you talk a little bit about that, like what would it have been like when they went off?

Dreadful, the house shook [Laughs] when they came over the top we got…the rebound I expect you’d call it…but being old well built houses, this block…they were built by Mr Garbett G-A-R-B-E-T-T…and he was also the builder that built the…erm asylum at Barkingside on the top of the hill

Ok

He built that big building. We went there once, with the XXXX to go over it, and it had just been closed and there was just a few inmates left, not many, but it was a lovely building, a lovely building and that was Jim Garbett. Here’s Frank.

Hello, how are you?

Frank: Hello

You ok?

Frank: more or less

[Laughs] it’s nice to see you again anyway

Frank: XXXX as one can expect

[Laughs]

Frank I think you’d be better on the settee dear, I’d think you’ll be better over there dear

Frank: over here

On the settee

Frank: there

Well unless

Would you like to sit here?

Frank: ...I’ll see how I get on, if I can understand my wife...then I’ll be able to move so quick, otherwise I’ll have to, suspend her, and...carry on myself

[Laughs]

Frank: how...far to...memory is different from mine, so you may gain

Frank be careful, be careful...mind...mind her bag

Do you want me to move it?

I don’t want him to trip over

That’s ok; I’ll move it for you. There you go

Thanks dear

I shouldn’t have left it there

You’re not there yet Frank, you’re not there yet, don’t sit down yet, go back

[Laughs]

Frank: XXXX prepare for me

You all ok now? [Laughs]

He’s alright, once he’s sitting down he’s alright

Frank: if you don’t speak up both of you, I shan’t be able to appreciate what you’re saying

[Laughs] well I’m quite load so you should be able to hear me [Laughs]

It was a lovely house, and I think it’s still there, on the corner of XXXX, it lays back

Ok

And it’s another one of dad’s houses, he built for Mr Blake, and it was known as Blake’s house, it’s a lovely house, I understand it’s in Flats now, or it was, and he called it Faircross Lodge...well this was known as the Faircross, this area wasn’t Frank? This area was known as the Faircross.

Frank: what?

This area, and then they called that...school down here Faircross School for the invalid children...

Frank: I think I better sit over there

Would you like to sit here, and I’ll sit there...is that...is that better, I’ll swap sits with you? [Laughs]

Frank: XXXX

Move the XXXX, that’s a new cushion my daughter brought, but we’re not using it at the moment...

Oh right

Cos...Too high I think for Frank

[Laughs]

Frank: XXXX

Frank weren’t you about ten when you came to Barking? Sit down...weren’t you about ten when you came to Barking from East Ham?

Frank: eleven

Eleven

Frank: I had just failed the eleven plus examination

Oh yes

Frank: so that mean I was eleven

Yes and he...

Frank: XXXX

You tell the lady, anyway he was sent to Hart modern school...but he was too clever for the class, so they sent him to the Abbey

Oh

Frank: that’s not true you see

Yes it is

[Laughs]

Frank: you better let me speak

Yes dear

Frank: Thank you

[Laughs]

Frank: no, I had very bad health when I was young, early school and I was just catching up...when two things happened...one I could suddenly read and two...erm what was the second one...have to quicker than this...erm...I sat the eleven plus...did I just say that?...did I say...

You sat the eleven plus

Frank: and I failed that, which was unfortunate, but when I gone off...and we came to Barking and moved into Shirley gardens, into a house that was just one year old...and I was sent automatically as I had not gained anything to Ripple Road school...which was a very nice school, and it was a single storey building, you’ll probably find out...and erm I was there for six weeks...XXXX

What sorry?

Frank: A tiger trap

A tiger trap?

Frank: this is to...I’d cleared out all the scribbles for the abbey or part of the schools cos...one year old and erm...I was there to...had any hope, they didn’t want to do much and they couldn’t do much, and I was there for six weeks and then about half a dozen places became available at the Hart modern school for the failures, see what they could do...and I was one of them, I’m not going not tell you the little ends of what happened

[Laughs]

Frank: cos that’s XXXX, so Hart school...starting off six weeks behind the rest, I wasn’t even taught to play rugby, I was left to pick up

[Laughs]

Frank: and I was there...I enjoyed it cos it was a new school, new people; I used to be...XXXX

Oh course

Frank: XXXX headmaster, was a real...vivid character, we called him old XXXX, cos he’d go on the XXXX he was nearly sixty, and he’d go out on the pitch and play rugby with the big boys…XXXX…take on whatever came, which I found XXXX…sometimes I didn’t…so…XXXX towards this was 1949 XXXX you left me XXXX fighting up towards 1951 and XXXX we were introduced to…I’m not sure XXXX a teacher or a specialist, who came XXXX and taught them, that we were going to have a pageant under the presence of Mr XXXX

XXXX

Frank: who was going to be…XXXX and as time went on, we had visitations for XXXX…educational people…teachers XXXX because we hadn’t got much money and we’d have to create all our clothes and XXXX things ourselves

Ok

Frank: XXXX, for instance helmets were felt hats, ladies didn’t buy and they were plastered in aluminium paint…armour effect…and also we were told how to make round XXXX about twenty inches diameter, XXXX and again…they would be painted in rough XXXX rough Anglo-Saxon XXXX for XXXX…and then we had rehearsals in the school yard, which was quite…there was a large field round the school…XXXX and then coming up XXXX…to meet, what was the road…the bottom, where the hart modern school entrance is? Do you remember?...bottom of the Hart modern?

What dear?

Frank: bottom of the Hart modern where the ground come out and meet…erm…

What was the other school

Frank: no it wasn’t…that was XXXX and XXXX Avenue

Yes

Frank: no this was just within the XXXX…

Where dear?

Frank: near the XXXX [Laughs]

Near the steps, pre-XXXX

Frank: Pre-XXXX, where they taught the pre-XXXX

Oh it was at the invalid children school, wasn’t it?

Frank: no that was opposite the other side of the road

No in the same road, yes they moved it and built a new one Dagenham I believe

Ah

Frank: anyway we had…to rehearse our parts and we were given sheets, XXXX sheets, so we knew for instance. I think we were scene four, this was scene of Barking, right up to present day almost, or before 1914, anyway, and erm…we were…rehearse most XXXX but then we got to a larger scale of where the arena was…now the arena was in the centre of…Barking…simple XXXX open space, I’m going by [Crash]

You ok with that, oh ok [Laughs]

I think that’s alright just about

Frank: well, XXXX Park, Barking Park, was where…most of it was going to take place we didn’t have anything to do with other places…but our area was…XXXX…Barking Abbey, but firstly we had to support XXXX we had a pavilion of industry XXXX, Longbridge Road and then a road down to XXXX and erm…I think we had our swimming pool, open aired swimming pool, XXXX and XXXX

I think it opened about 1930, the swimming pool

Oh course yes

I was about fourteen I think

Frank: I was fifteen

You were fifteen

Frank: I had to be if she was fourteen

And when the XXXX, that arranged all the wonderful erm week, was a whole week, we had and I was in the pageant, they called it the pageant and Mr XXXX…

Frank: it was, XXXX was XXXX pageant master, XXXX was…pageant master

Yes I know he was the boss

Erm

He arranged it all

Sorry this was the charter day celebrations in 1931

Yes ‘30

Ok

When we were made a borough, erm I ‘m sure it was about ’30

Ok

Cos I was thirteen…

Frank: it was ’31, it was ‘31

I’m glad, I’m sorry I didn’t take picture…all I had was a white blouse and a floral skirt to the floor and we were told…erm what to wear and I don’t remember if they gave the material or whether mum just had it by and made

Frank: yes something’s came from…

XXXX cap [Laughs]

Frank: oh you…

And sometimes in these old plays they do they have them the same, they’re just white XXXX cap what they were called, with an elastic round [Laughs] so, oh…when I think all my family were in it, yes I would have been thirteen or fourteen yes at the time

Frank: well you can tell if its 1931 can’t you?

Well I’m not right am I then

Frank: your family are up and down all over the place

No I’m not

Frank: and size

I’m ninety-four now and here we are 2010…?

Eleven

Eleven, 2011 and I thought it was 1930 am I right?

It’s 1931, was the charter day

Frank: ’31, yes well actually, XXXX required a great deal of organisation and schools obviously took great part of it…preparation for instance, the largest motorboat on the lake was dressed up as a Viking ship

Wow

Frank: leaving sheets of thin wood…XXXX mast and a sail…appropriately designed and a Viking XXXX of some kind

There was a picture of the XXXX in the local paper

Frank: Mmh

I expect you saw it dear

Erm oh the Viking boat

The boat dressed up, that we used to have to take us down the lake, it was in the local paper

Ok, are you talking about the paddle steamer, the paddle steamer?

Yes

Yes, oh they dressed that up as a Viking ship

Well I don’t…that was

Frank: one of the existing boats was XXXX

Yes

Frank: and erm

They dressed it up I think, didn’t they with flags and things, I think and used it

Frank: XXXX on my section, I was allocated to erm…XXXX

Right

Frank: they was the defeated…and erm…XXXX you had to have the conquest…not the Norman conquest, but the conquest of a gang of several hundred XXXX descending upon the village…and erm…we had the XXXX…there…I can’t get the XXXX, but we had, that was XXXX episode so I haven’t got XXXX because I haven’t had a chance of going thorough my bookcase erm, I have got a copy of the Barking for the pageant, it was a full production, about half a XXXX and it divided the history out into episodes and I was in section four, which was…the submission of the Saxon warriors to King… William of France of course…and we had to come on erm from the back…the swimming baths

Yes

Frank: became the dressing rooms

Dressing’s rooms

Frank: that was

Very useful, very useful

Frank: erm but XXXX, my section they came in…I always remember the wooden shields clanging against their thighs as they walked along

[Laughs]

Frank: XXXX seeing them with these…simple felt hats, it was at the age of…XXXX, that was the fashion…and XXXX and the rest…also I’m not sure whether…the material was given us to make the thing, certainly was…leggings, they were simple trousers, really and they had to have ribbon about…an inch at least wide wrapped around their legs to simulate the erm…form…leg wear…and the whole thing was laid out with…the swimming pool as the centre of it, because of it’s XXXX and of course all those changing boxes were invaluable for getting your XXXX dressed, now you XXXX see XXXX characters walking thorough the XXXX sometimes or even riding thorough on a horse…

Its sound like it was a really wonderful day, do you remember having a lot of fun?

Frank: twice a day

Twice a day?

Frank: yes and you had knighting at night-time, not professional, but a sufficient for the purpose there…and then also you got a sixth Saturday afternoon special…performance, I think XXXX…but there was…I suppose you’ve seen the film…of the pageant

I haven’t seen it no

Frank: oh you must

Do you have a copy?

Frank: you must see it

Have you got the program?

No I have nothing about the Charter Day

Hasn’t the town hall got it?

No well I went to the local studies and archives, and they’ve got some photographs, but they certainly…I don’t think they’ve got a film or I don’t think they’ve got a program

Frank: yes it’d showed at the local, what was the local cinema, not the Odeon…

Rio, the Rio R-I-O, the Rio cinema or the Capital was the first one…

Frank: Capital

Little tiny one [Laughs]

Frank: Capital, not the XXXX

They called it the fleapit, didn’t they?

Frank: well not the fleapit

[Laughs]

Frank: we got sick of seeing the standard film, and…XXXX they were playing it was George at the organ

Who was that?

Frank: George at the Organ

Yes

Frank: George at the organ was playing erm…

And that was a know thing wasn’t it the organist, the start of the program…he always played the organ and up came this platform with him of the grand piano, at the Capital wasn’t it?

Frank: oh at the Capital yes, that was our local…wouldn’t XXXX otherwise

It was opposite Woolworths

Oh ok

Right opposite wasn’t it?

Frank: the organist name was lodge

Lodge

Frank: Jim Lodge was his son

Oh I didn’t know

Frank: Jim Lodge was a friend of…XXXX

XXXX

Frank: His friend

Oh

Frank: Yes

Didn’t know

Frank: anyway…the whole things XXXX…

But my niece has a program…

Oh does she?

It was…she mentioned it the last time she was up here…Jean, Jean, she had a program, I’m sure it was of the…what did we call it? Pageant, the Pageant, I’m sure it was Jean, because I was only thirteen or fourteen, naturally we would have one.

Frank: XXXX looking after

…but sad they got thrown away…if I could get a copy

Frank: XXXX…to do

If I could get a copy of it

Oh if you could get a copy of it, that would be amazing

And you’d like that

Oh I would absolutely love it, and I think the archives would really appreciate it as well

Well she lives down in Suffolk now

Oh ok

But erm…she was a teacher, lovely girl wasn’t she Jean, we don’t see her very often cos she loves it up there, its country, XXXX it’s a lovely town, a lovely town

Frank: it’s worth going there, if for nothing else

You don’t have to go anywhere else, there’s everything there that you want

Frank: XXXX…or XXXX

[Laughs]

Frank: and…it’s a rather dreary music and I XXXX and we got fed up with it anyway but erm…there was all this XXXX left over XXXX cos we provided most of our material, but we didn’t have to give it back…so that XXXX for when the XXXX and 2011 wants to XXXX

[Laughs]

Frank: now what else, oh that…XXXX they had this XXXX stage of timber…an angle…about forty to forty-five degrees, and XXXX and this…and on the last evening, the Saturday evening, there was a grand face stuffing XXXX…cakes and drinks and things all free

Wow

Frank: so that, that…of course XXXXX again was used for the production, for seating and doing things…erm unfortunately I was only in one scene, and I only saw glimpses of, of others

[Laughs] you came following our scene, the country scene I was in…

Frank: I know you were

And my dear mother and my two sisters and myself were in it…I think we only did it once a day though, they did do it afternoon and evenings didn’t they? I think

Frank: yeah, yes

Oh it was lovely, when I think back…

Frank: it was grand, yes; we thoroughly enjoyed ourselves, especially XXXX at the end

When I first…went to the town hall…and it came into my being different things…and it said…19…that year would have been…or was it after I went back…the population in Barking at that time when I was at the town hall, it was fifty-nine thousand

Frank: it was about that for sometime

Fifty-nine, it didn’t change did it?

Frank: not much, but then XXXX the council houses, it filled up rapidly

Yes well when they closed all, or pulled down Upney hospital which I thought was very sad because so many people from Barking and East Ham, used to go there, now they’ve got to go to…Goodmayes Lane…no Barley Lane, Barley Lane, yes it’s a long way for people unless…oh Newham have a hospital now haven’t they, yes I think…my sister bless her…erm who married…you know the hope in Barking, is it still there?

The Hope…?

Gascoigne Road, the Hope pub.

I’m afraid I don’t know, I…

Gascoigne Road, I think it’s probably still there

Ok

My sister married the son from the Hope, Barking, in Gascoigne Road, it used to be, I don’t remember much about it, but I know where Gascoigne Road was it came out into the old Broadway, didn’t it, it the old days?

Frank: that’s one of old XXXX, name of course after of our Barking worthies

Barking…

Frank: Barking worthies or Gooding, many had money up the top [Laughs]

What was, what was Williams Warne’s, before William Warne’s brought, in Barking, the XXXX Company, William XXXX, William Warne’s, William Warne’s XXXX Company, my dad built that…erm…and it was built like small bungalows, all detached you know…and all one storey I mean…something like the…on the edge of the hospital, they have bungalows, different departments for there…they used to have it here as well

Frank: was that XXXX the population or just for profit?

What dear?

Frank: was that to relieve the pressure of population or just money?

No this was only at the hospital, I’m talking about

Frank: I don’t remember seeing that, I went into Warne’s once because

William Warne’s, yes

Frank: I might have…to work there, if they wanted me, but I didn’t get the job unfortunately …fate was waiting for me round the corner

Perhaps dad was working there then…he was too old

Frank: something…no I was wasn’t I was seventeen at the time

Well who had it before William Warne’s, do you know?

Frank: no I don’t know…I forgot, I didn’t have a car, I didn’t cycle then, I was lazy so I didn’t want to walk down there

[Laughs]

Frank: all kind of things stopping me

Erm I’ve got a feeling, dad had told me, he came down with this firm, that owned William Warne’s, after the firm dad came down with from Scotland, William Warne took it over from this firm, that I can’t remember it’s name, so it’s going back a good few years [Laughs] but he used to do a lot of work at William Warne’s, like buildings…more buildings as they got more land…they’re just like bungalows, like they used to have over at Goodmayes hospital, single storey buildings, they had them at Upney as well, like little bungalows different departments, had their own little buildings

Frank: was it because of TB?

It could have been, it could have been...but erm…

Frank: and what the other thing that was right XXXX

What dear?

Frank: what was the other thing, that was XXXX at the time…most people seem to get it

No I think it was only TB wasn’t it? It was I think…only TB

Frank: they ended up with defective bones

Erm…Multiple Sclerosis

Frank: probably, yes I think so, yes

I’ve got Osteoporosis, my sister had…what did I just say… [Laughs]

You said Osteoporosis

Multiple Sclerosis, my sister had, and I’ve got Osteoporosis…and it’s only the last ten years, I was alright when we got married wasn’t I?...I was alright when I got married?

Frank: I don’t know

That’s twenty years ago, I wasn’t walking badly

Frank: oh you mean that marriage

I wasn’t walking badly then no, of course I wasn’t

Frank: XXXX

It’s the last ten years, yes so…

I was going to ask you, do either of you remember the soldiers that lived in Barking Park during the war?

The what?

The soldiers…?

Soldiers opposite? Yes

Do you know how many were based in the park?

How many?

Yeah

Hundreds I would say… [Laughs]

Did you see them quite a lot?

Erm…XXXX would have been the sergeant major, cos my husband had a band, and he used to play over there for the dances

Ah

And often at night, he’d bring this man back, what would he be called…over a group of men…not sergeant, sergeant something, anyway, he’d bring him back for drinks and I’d here them talking down here all night

[Laughs]

‘til about three in the morning [Laughs] my husband ran the band, Vic XXXX and his band…he was the only band around…and he was the best band

Frank: and southern Essex

He had a certificate framed on the wall when I met him and…he was voted…in the east end by a Jillian XXXX he was the head of music in London…he got so many votes for Vic XXXX and his band…best band in East London and he had this big certificate on the wall here

Frank: and even out of it

Cos he lived here of course

Oh

We moved in here when I was about…well in was war time so I went…I went up North with the baby didn’t I? we were married…I think forty, and Peter was born forty-three, he was three months when I carried him up to London with the heavy case, went to Retford, I don’t know how I didn’t it now [Laughs]…found our way to the station and…got a train had to change somewhere I remember, but my sister already being up there, she found somewhere for me to stay…Retford Nottinghamshire…

And do you remember the Barrage balloon that was in…

Mmh

Frank: oh…

Can you describe it?

They got a direct hit, down the bottom here, all the XXXX were killed, you know…this short road at the bottom here

Mmh

Used to be called Levett, is it still Levett Gardens?

Erm, which, which one?

Levett Road, it goes across that way, level with this at the bottom of this road…

I don’t think I’ve been down there so I don’t know I’m afraid

And it’s different now; they’ve built a school on the ground

Oh ok

That was, that was the playing field, that area

Frank: that was Park modern

Huge playing field, my sister went there when it first opened…and she would have been erm…I suppose about eleven or twelve

Frank: mmh

When it first started, yes…and erm they had a huge playing field and I mean huge, the school was there on this Road, half way down this road, there’s a short road, that’s Levett Road, cos Levett Gardens, that was very mislead, Levett Gardens I used to get letters here, don’t know why

Mmh

Levett’s down the bottom, and I had to go to Ilford, yeah I used to get them quite a lot…perhaps their name was Hewitt too, and that’s why, might have been…but Levett Gardens, and this was Levett Road, and it went to…

Frank: yes they always confuse…

Its level with Longbridge Road, went right up to the station up and then up to the station.

Could you actually physically describe what a barrage balloon looks like cos obviously a lot of people now, they would never have seen one

Frank: I only know one, one film of all those made during the war and after, which showed a shot of, of the barrage balloon, you sit on a corner down there, and look across over there…

Describe the colour, or the size and what shape was it

Frank: there were silver

Silver

Frank: Silver and they…were fabric I think…XXXX [Laughs] and they had…had a team for each balloon, and they’ll have a wench and steel drums, and they’d let them out cos they had…had cylinders, with gases in and they would let the gases in and… up shot the XXXX to several thousand feet if necessary, and there was a bit of a XXXX of low flying planes, I think it killed off, the XXXX they were XXXX jeans, built to dive vertically on a object and if you XXXX you just…you wouldn’t feel happy anyway, but erm I think they had so many…

Yes round here cos of the guns

Frank: it’s like a Christmas pudding XXXX [Laughs]

[Laughs]

They were a funny shape you couldn’t say they were circular could you?

Frank: No they weren’t, they were oval

And they had the guns here and the girls down erm…there’s a new school they built down here, isn’t it? Well on that playing field, this, this…short road is at the bottom of this Hulse Avenue, and round…Levett goes there well that’s where my sister went to the first Park modern school, when it first opened, but of course it’s all new buildings there now, but it was facing Longbridge Road in that position and she was in the first lot, when it opened and Frank was in the second lot I think, the next year

Frank: she’s historical…

Well she’s not here is she bless her

Frank: sorry dear

My sister

Frank: sorry

Erm yes I remember her going there, the colour was red and grey, wasn’t it? The blazers red and grey.

Frank: yes

Strips

Frank: they were…they were called…I’m not sure whether they called by…bombs being dropped or the machine gun fire, but anyway one stormy night, really nasty and these…a team of about ten to twelve girls XXXX all attached to the XXXX centre of the field, just over there, in the centre of it

Is that in Barking Park?

Mmh

Ah right ok

Frank:…and…they heard something coming and…

Doodlebugs we called them…Doodlebugs

Frank:…whenever they XXXX, wasn’t quick enough, those girls were killed and just XXXX playing field, XXXX explode of…dropped was XXXX out

Those XXXX was all killed, they were guarding the…actually the guns here on the playing field, the girls weren’t they? They had the…what they called…

Frank: what?

The balloons, they had to stop the planes coming down low near the guns, and we have a thousand pound bomb opposite here in the concrete behind the garden, the walkway at the back, before the railings, there was a thousand bomb and we weren’t aloud to come up here, and I’d only just got married, six months and that happened, and I lived in the first house round the corner, and I…my dad had given me half a dozen chickens cos there were no eggs during the war, only foreign egg and he carried one under each arm [Laughs] because I was bombed out…and erm the police stopped us, ‘what are you doing with those chickens’, my dad said ‘it’s my daughter, she’s been bombed out’ and the chickens were alright, the bottom of the garden in the first house that side and it was wonderful that they survived and that they still laid eggs [Laughs]

Frank: XXXX

Road island reds, they’re the best XXXX for laying [Laughs]

[Laughs] that’s a lovely story

No when…

Frank: it’s true [Laughs]

[Laughs]

When I went to Retford in Nottinghamshire, they didn’t know there was a war on, I mean I’d come from a badly Blitz area anyway and they didn’t know there was a war

Really

They really didn’t we’d walk into Retford shopping, this lady I was staying with, she was lovely, she had two boys and he was a captain in the…army, her husband, but I never did get round to meeting him, he never came home all the twelve or fourteen months I was away

Frank: [Laughs] a true officer

Mmh, he never came home or being a captain he couldn’t leave his men, could he? And my husband was in the navy…erm he hated the water, he could just about keep himself for float, he wasn’t a strong swimmer, although he was a big man, he didn’t like water, and he was in the sea and then…Atlantic Ocean for five hours, before the American came back to pick him up with the rest of the one who hadn’t died…XXXX on their crew there was three hundred and thirty something, I’ve always remembered that, and so many…luckily for him, he wasn’t an officer, but the officers quarter…where they all lived that end of the ship, whether it was XXXX or the back, I don’t know, and that sunk immediately, so all those lives were lost, the officers, he was kept, he was in the water, in the Atlantic, for five hours and I was expecting the baby, at that time, and they put these survivors…erm now who was it? A well known…Lord someone pulled him up the side of the ship, Lord someone, it wasn’t Lord Bath, I don’t think, but someone in that area, Lord, pulled him up the side of the rescue ship and he had terrible, terrible sores all down the fronts of his legs…cos they pulled him up, his probably lifeless being in the water for five hours…and he had those sores for weeks, before he got rid of them, but they saved his life from the sea, but he…always said, it was the thought of me expecting the baby, that’s right, and erm that would have been 19…43, yes 194-, we were married 1940, yes nearly… between ’42 and ’43 it would have been mmh…and erm it must have been terrible for him, his particular friend was lost in that accident and it was the Queen Mary, that cut their ship in two…believe it or now, that’s the truth, it never got in the paper, it never got in the paper

Frank: and then after it, everybody knew about it.

Well Frank knew about it

Frank: I knew about it

There was only one fellow I knew…that went…a friend of erm Edna Taylor, her husband, boyfriend they always went around together and he, he told me…he was down at Edna’s, down the road here one day and he was there cos he was Jack’s friend and he said he knew about…but erm…it happened I think it was October the 3^rd, it was a terrible accident, Queen Mary cut their Cruiser in two, and it was the officer’s quarters they caught, they went too close, they were escorting all these cruisers, XXXX were escorting the Queen Mary, full of Americans…bringing the troops over

Frank: thousands of them

And they just cut…the cruiser in two…bigger than a destroyer I think, aren’t they? I think.

Frank: of course they are dear.

Yeah well I’ve never seen one

Frank: just XXXX

And just cut the quarters where the officers were, they weren’t on deck, they were down below…but Frank…erm Vic was so very lucky, he was kept in a church hall for three weeks, before he was aloud home…well in the Atlantic that time of the year, it might have been icy cold

Frank: terrible

And he said it was his life jacket that saved him, he couldn’t have…couldn’t have swam for five hours, no-one could and he saw friend who disappearing, how terrible, terrible and that was 19…about ’41…no could have been ’42 or ’43 that happened, but the…our Queen Mary was full of American troops and they got too close…wouldn’t have been just XXXX it was, the XXXX the cruiser, but it wouldn’t have been just one escort there would have been a team of them, wouldn’t there, escorting the Queen Mary, with the Americans.

Frank: they dare not stop, at time

I know they said they couldn’t stop, but by the time they came back, of course half of them had died, there were three hundred…on that cruiser, I remember the amount..and I think it might have been thirty something saved, that’s all, so I was very, very lucky…no must…they were terrible times...

Frank: there was a XXXX of guns attached to the swimming pool, over the park

Yes

Oh ok

Frank: four, four

Four

Frank: four point five inch

Big guns

Frank: that the aircraft XXXX, anti-aircraft

Anti-aircraft

Frank: that’s not a bad size is it, four point five inches, XXXX coming down here?

And you used to walk past it when they went off didn’t you?

Frank: mmh

I was living here, and the house seemed to shake, they went over the top [Laughs]

Frank: I’m not sure whether they…what the…control room, underground, underneath the…erm…

Pool…under the swimming…

Frank: no not the pool, underneath the erm…

The pavilion

Frank: no…XXXX erm…miniature golf

Miniature yes

Frank: miniature golf…underneath that XXXX of course and I’m not sure, it may still be there

It could be, could be

Frank: it’d be quicker then digging a hole [Laughs]

Yes well this, this erm…sergeant something, he was used to come back cos Vic used to play for the dances there, in…XXXX the dances and erm they come…he’d bring them back here and sit down drinking…with him to half past sometimes three o’ clock in the morning [Laughs]

[Laughs]

Frank: and those guns were there all during the war, there were four erm…four mobile guns at first, before the war, three, XXXX five inch and then when it started, they soon get the big ones in, but I doubt whether they brought one plane down…XXXX hopes XXXX…

Was the park open to the public during the war? Sorry was the park open to the public during the war? Were people aloud to go in there when the soldiers were there?

Frank: XXXX I remember coming along here one night and erm…it was absolutely silence, pitch…not pitch black cos there were glimmers around, but erm

And then guns

Frank: I heard XXXX [Laughs] XXXX and after that I just flung things up, the gun metal caps, that diameter on each shell, imagine that

Wow

Frank: with all the shell behind…

I think I’ve got a photo of one of the guns, actually I think I showed you last time

Do you remember when the bomb was dropped Frank?

Frank:…

The bomb was dropped on all the houses along here and the next block caught alight

Frank: yes

And I…I ran all the way down to mum and Ed had come up with me that very night to keep me company

Frank: where was she?

She was living…erm in Park Avenue in Barking, my sister

Frank: the other of XXXX

And I had a case, I don’t know what I had in the case, but I put that on my head and I was living round number one, round this corner and we ran Ed and I, she had only just come up to live with me, she was living with mum cos she…wasn’t married then, no she wasn’t married I don’t think cos he was in Retford in the army, then she went up there and they came back and got married during the war…and erm oh dear…and after this, after this bomb dropped opposite and all the block up there caught alight…erm I don’t think the cabin went, did it? I think that’s the original building, I think

Frank: it is the original building, yes it is dear, it’s such a unique design, I think it’s…a interesting building within Barking

What?

Frank: the cabin

On the corner here?

Frank: mmh

Doctor XXXX house

Frank: no oh no not that, in Hulse Avenue

This is Hulse Avenue…Doctor XXXX house is there dear, he was an Irish doctor, he was well known in Barking and he had been here for years, and she went back to Ireland with the children and I think soon after he followed…but he was a well known doctor, who’s that man out there?...oh it’s Monday, dustbin day [Laughs]

[Laughs]

I saw someone come in the gate [Laughs]…but erm, no 19…I had the baby that’s right, so it would have been about ’42 I expect when Peter was born, yes I had a baby, and a case and erm…went to London all on my own…erm I think I phoned Barking station to...to find out what time the trains and where I went from...I didn’t know anything [Laughs] it’s terrible

Frank: XXXX today

And I had to change somewhere with the baby and the case...erm...Retford, Nottinghamshire, they did not know there was a war on...when I came back the bombing was worse, mum said ‘whatever did you come for?’ I said I couldn’t stand being away from Barking, I missed you so much’

Frank: [Laughs]

And I did

Frank: XXXX

We both clung to each other cried

Ah, it’s lovely; I remember that you...your dad built the bandstand in the park.

My dad built that yes

Could you tell what year he built it?

Well he built the Blake’s corner with the clocktower and all those shops with the lovely bay...I don’t know if they’re still there, they might be, they’ve got a long bay, haven’t they Frank, not like that

Frank: Mmh, shallow...

If it’s still there...shallow bays, not like that dear, not like that, long bays over the shops, they’re dad’s build and they were attached to Blake’s corner, there was about four that side and then there...were three or four the other side in Ripple Road, but that’s not there anymore, is it?

It’s a shame

So I expect they’ve pulled those down, I don’t know

Frank; Mmh

Shame

Must be, must be

They would have erm...built after he came back from Canada...erm there was no work in England for Brickees and builders, and he went to Canada for two year

Ok

And he...we saw the snow and people on the telly, didn’t we in that program, and he said he loved Canada, but it wasn’t fair to take women and children there, it was so bitterly cold and that was Winnipeg, South Canada

Wow

Yes he was away a long time

So what year would he have built the bandstand then, would that have been before you were born?

I would say two years after the war finished, I would think, when Barking council had saved up the money [Laughs]...I should think...

Did you go...?

I don’t know it might have been before the war, might in it? 1918

Ok

Oh they used to keep it lovely and...you went upstairs...up steps to the inside where every Sunday night there was brass band from somewhere and all the population of Barking stood round the bandstand, listening t the lovely music, it was just a known thing, there wasn’t a cinema in those, when I was a child...[Laughs] used meet Vera and her mum and dad, my cousin...yes Mr Blake...erm was a well known man in Barking and my dad and his brother started the first Barking football team in Barking

Ah ok

They were both very keen and they came down from Dundee when they were children...and I said to dad one day...I said ‘oh I’ve, I’ve meet a very nice lady, that had gone to North Street school to meet Ed’s little girl, she lived on...Park Avenue straight at the bottom and this lady, I’d met and got talking to and she had three little girls at North Street school and erm...her name was Max something and she was lovely and I’d gone to meet Rita a few times as a little girl from North Street and I mean I didn’t know, he lived in the very house, one-twenty-eight, my dad said to me ‘what number does lady live, that you talk about Clem, with the three little girls?’ I said ‘one-twenty-eight, she told me’ he said ‘that’s where lived when we first came down from Dundee’ wasn’t that strange.

What a coincidence

That was strange wasn’t it? Ah I think he would like to have met her to tell her that, but it was only because it was an odd day...erm Ed asked me if I’d go and meet Rita, cos she was living at the bottom...there’s one house on its own, it’s...erm not old like the others that are joined together, it stands alone, erm it was built after the others and she lived on the ground floor and it was lovely, nice big rooms, it was different from the rest of the road, and erm, she only had the one baby and he was in the army, and they took the ground floor and it was lovely, it was erm...two nice size rooms and a kitchen and a bathroom, that’s all they needed...that would still be there, that’s the entrance...where the entrance is in the corner down to the lake, go down Park Avenue, I don’t know if you can get down there now, and it was...down there...no dad built those from Shirley to Lyndhurst...and the first four I think it was were...bombed and they all caught a light, didn’t they, Doctor XXXX big house on the corner that dad did...on the corner of Shirley, looking off down Longbridge Road, down the double fronted house on the left as you go down Shirley, dad built it for this Mr Doc...Doctor XXXX from Upton Park and he and his wife were there and they were both killed....direct hit and of course the next house caught a light and the only two left was where we lived on the corner and the one our neighbour who was Doctor McXXXX, McXXXX, his son McDonald, that’s it...McDonald, was made me say the other name Doctor McDonald, well known Scot doctor, very well known...erm retched mouse again, just seen it...they...someone set some traps in kitchen, there it is back again

Where is it?

It’s made a hole by the pipe over behind the settee where it goes down in the cellar and one there in the bay window, see the pipe that goes into the ground, he’s chewed all the carpet to get in the cellar....[Laughs]

Frank: once XXXX floorboards XXXX

He’s chewed a lot of the carpet...well one must be pregnant it’s so big, and the other one is a baby, just where the pipe goes down, he’s chewed all the carpet

Oh no, it’s a shame

I think they must be coming from the park

It’s possible

Haven’t had mice for years have we

Frank: No

No we haven’t Frank

[Laughs]

And I think Jenny’s set two traps in the kitchen

Frank: she has

They probably dance round them

[Laughs]

Frank: there are two

But that was the big one

Frank: two XXXX

Oh I don’t like mice do you?

They’re ok

Well I said to

I’d rather not have them in my home, but [Laughs]

I said to Frank, a mouse has nearly kept you company while you were a sleep, I was sitting just...saw something move...it was making a bee line for Frank [Laughs]

[Laughs]

But I couldn’t have killed him, he had the biggest eyes, he must have been a door mouse

Ah

I think that’s the name that came

Frank: door mouse’s are about that size

It was tiny, it was tiny and I said to you

Frank: that size XXXX

And then there was a big one, then a little one again, it was a lovely long tail and immediately I thought when I saw it, it had such big eyes, I immediately thought door mouse, but I can’t say it was , because I’ve never seen a door mouse

[Laughs]

Haven’t seen a mouse for a long time have we?

Frank: you have not but you have now

No...That door mouse, I couldn’t have killed him [Laughs]

[Laughs]

He was pretty, he was pretty and he was tiny and he had these enormous eyes

Ah

Well with the park opposite they could get thorough the air brick, there’s an air brick facing the gate on that skirting outside

Frank: a friend of ours used to catch...mice in a trap, then walk over the park and release it

Ah

Cos she couldn’t kill it

Frank: couldn’t kill

That was the old type trap, it was a trap and it could move around...but when she told us, we couldn’t believe she was a lovely lady, not that’s there’s anymore

Frank: born again christen

Lovely lady

Frank: XXXX

He was a lovely man wasn’t he?

Frank: he was a lovely man

I think she put up with a lot

Frank: you would want to live with him

[Laughs]

No I think she was very patient, very patient lady, she was only here a fortnight wasn’t she

Frank; yes

Ah....lovely, lovely lady...I’m wondering if the daughters living in her house Frank...I wonder if the daughters or if they sold it

Frank: just saying two daughters, one was erm...one...several jobs together in Barking and the other one was working for the foreign office

She was a teacher when she here off the XXXX wasn’t she the other one

Frank: yes

The eldest one

Frank: when she

The other one was in Europe wasn’t she, working in Europe, you know who else, old XXXX used to go to Europe, to see someone didn’t he [Laughs]

Frank: he was

No it was a lovely...lovely old town....must have been much, much nicer when dad first came, if he was ten, makes a lot of difference doesn’t it? But Blake’s corner was lovely, I’m sure it was three floors...over the shop and then the big, big clocktower and when I came...I think everybody did, as soon as they came out the station they turned to see the time

Hello

Our friend from the council

Oh sorry

This is Jenny

Hi

Jenny: hi, Claire?

Yeah, I’m Claire, hi nice to meet you, how are you?

Jenny: are you from...social, like the social side of the council?

No I’m ...we’re doing a project on Barking Park

Jenny: oh, you’re doing the Barking Park thing

Yes, yes

Jenny: oh right, right

So erm we just erm recording some memories now, so if you want to join, please feel free [Laughs] I was going to say actually do you want to start looking at some of these photos and maybe talking about some of these photos

What dear

Would you like to have a look of the photos?

Yes

Maybe see if they erm

Jenny: see if you can remember

Get your memories going?

Jenny: have you got you hearing aid in mum

What dear?

Jenny: have you got your hearing aid in?

Yes I think I must need a new one

Jenny: yes let’s put a battery in

[Laughs]

Would you like tea or coffee?

Oh I’m fine thank you

You sure

Jenny: you sure

Thank you, yes

Jen don’t use the coffee, it taste salty

Frank: XXXX

Our woman made a coffee and I said ‘oh I can’t drink that, it’s salty’ is it a new brand you’ve tried

No

It was really salty and Frank thought the same, we don’t take sugar, but as both us thought it was salt in it, I’m sure we’re not dreaming

Yes

I’m sure we’re not

Frank: XXXX

[Laughs]

Frank: we’ve been have Kenco coffee for twenty-two years or so

I wonder if there’s any of those dear soldiers left

It would be lovely to find some wouldn’t it?

Well they said, they were going over to Germany when they left here

Oh were they ok

The anti-aircraft gun

Frank: is that the actually one

That one’s actually from 1918 so I don’t know if it’s the same one

1918

Frank: I thought I’d never seen one like before

Jenny: Frank wasn’t here as early as mum, were you Frank?

Frank: Thank you

Jenny: mum’s been in Barking longer then you I feel

Frank the charter celebrations

I think Frank moved here probably about 1928

Jenny: yes

Frank: now a days XXXX

On barking lake

Jenny: yes mum’s got some photos of when they did the charter when they all dressed up the old costumes, has she told you that?

Oh really, we have talked about that, but if you’ve got photos, to hand I would love to see them.

Jenny: I don’t know about to hand but erm...

Jen have we got any handy

Jenny: I’ll have a look, let’s get your hearing aid done for you

That box there

[Laughs]

Jenny: yeah have a look at your battery, put it in

It the XXXX Frank, the XXXX [Laughs]

Jenny: so when did you...

Frank: Anna XXXX

That one...

Jenny: so mum was born in ’18...1918

Frank: I have seen them once actually

Ah

Jenny: do you remember him?

That was my gardening man that I had here

Jenny: was it?

Mmh, he said he worked over there all his life

Oh it that Les Taylor

Jenny: Les

One of the gardeners

Ah ok

Les Taylor

So Les Taylor actually used to come over and do your garden?

I can’t remember the name Jen

Oh sorry [Laughs]

Thank you

Jenny:...be able to hear better in a minute

[Laughs]

Jenny: Frank, where’s your hearing aid

He doesn’t know, he’s got two and he can’t find either

Frank: it was in my case I know, but then the next day it wasn’t so

Jenny: oh right we’ll have a look

[Laughs]

Jenny: here you go, now can you hear

Thank you

Jenny: try it...right do you want a cup of tea? Would you like a cup of tea?

Love one please

Frank: this has been

They must of had lots of gardeners, mustn’t they?

Jenny: yes, so what’s your question, current question Claire?

Oh sorry, the current question was just...so Les Taylor used to come over and do your gardening, did he?

If it wasn’t him, it was his pal

[Laughs]

I can’t remember his name

Jenny: no she can’t, she won’t remember, but...I remember that was where they used to have all the greenhouses wasn’t it?

That’s right behind the tennis courts, they had the greenhouse

Ah ok

And they were lovely long ones, weren’t they

Jenny: yeah

Frank: I used to go over there, when they...beginning to...

It’s the fountains Jen, look, just about XXXX there

Frank: I used to buy my Brick...XXXX ground up into granules, beautiful

Jenny: I know they’re lovely things...I used to spend my summers over there, I was...

Oh right

Jenny: cos I’m sixty-one, so...I was...I was born here was I?

Does it say 1950?

This is 1950s, so...

That’s before then, wasn’t it you went

Jenny: no erm...cheek

I’m sorry

Jenny: [Laughs]

I’m sorry, I’m thinking of when we’ve been married twenty years [Laughs]

Jenny: no forget about that, I’ve...that’s 1950s so that was the summer when...just after I was born

Oh

Jenny: So you didn’t take me over there then, yeah in the sixties from school, you used to do the school holidays

Yes I did take you with Vera; I did take you over there Vera, Scotty’s wife and their daughter Angela, yes

Jenny: so what memories...there’s, oh what about the bandstand...because when erm I talking...you know when I was talking to that gentleman, who used to go and listen to Dad’s band, he said he remembers going over to the bandstand when dad was playing there and they’d all be dancing round the bandstand

That’s lovely, yes it’s a shame it’s gone, isn’t it

Jenny: yes

They started dancing on the tennis courts, until they got permission to dance round the bandstand, but that slope used to be covered in geraniums going up to the bandstand erm...our friend said what year was the bandstand built, well I expect it was when dad came back from Canada

Jenny: oh it was built before the memorial was it? Was it built before he built the...war memorial? Do you think...if dad was playing there, that would have been before the war, so that was have been, the thirties...

The war memorial I should....

Jenny: When my dad was...would have been playing over the park, at the bandstand that was the thirties wasn’t it? Cos that was before the war...dad with his band

What year was it the pool opened ’30 was?

Circa 1930 or ’31 I believe

I was going to say 1930, it’s 1950 this picture, but it’s not a good one of the fountains because of the background, it’s a shame, those fountains were lovely and oh course you can’t see the beauty of it cos it’s in front of this building, that’s the entrance I think in, which is...just a little to the right, they’ve just painted it...painted it cream

Yes

Mind you I don’t think it’d been painted for years

No [Laughs]

Must have taken a lot of paint

[Laughs]

[Laughs] oh yes, that’s South Park entrance...are they using that dear?

Erm...currently they’re using it as office space, so the park manager, erm his office is in there at the moment

Oh that’s good

Yes

Frank: they’re not going to pull it down are they?

I think...

No, no

Frank: wouldn’t surprise me

They’ll keep the lodge

I think it’s lovely

It’s beautiful

Frank: the terrible is a night protecting it and vandalism

Let’s hope they’ve got a dog, hope they’ve got a dog

Frank: well XXXX when they get the council, decide to have their, their...games room and...the park, course their garden was always lovely

Frank: so it should be

What do you remember about the wildlife in the park? Do you remember lots of animals?

Squirrels more than anything

Squirrels

Used to be loads of squirrels down by the lake on the tall trees boarding the lake

Frank: yes and...

1948 yes, yes it could have been him, it’s a lovely building, its Frank?

It’s was old Dawson’s....erm study building

Jenny: so are you more interested in the wildlife side do you?

To be honest it’s just all memories

I think...

Frank: XXXX

Jenny: if you...perhaps get them talking about the...the charter cos i...i know she remembers quite a lot about it....

What dear?

...the whole family was in the countryside scene and then obviously frank was like in the Saxon warriors, so it’s quite nice to have...its lovely

Frank: he designed....XXXX

Dawson’s

What’s that sorry?

The man that lived there was the head of the park, Mr Booton

Mr Booton

But the man that designed the house was a Mr...Dawson, you think

Frank: who?

Booton, Booton lived there, he was the head of the park

Frank: he did then, there’s a family of boys

Ah

Frank: a family of boys

Yes and one of the boys had one arm only, I don’t know...

Do you know what year that was that Mr. Booton lived there?

Oh...

Jenny: how old would...how old would you have been mum?

Sixty...more than sixty years ago isn’t it...in the forties I would have known wouldn’t I?

Cos I believe Les Taylor, who is that man in that picture, I think he lived there with his family as well...

Was his name Taylor?

Taylor, yes

But the first man I know lived there was a Mr Booton

Ok

And he was head of the park

Jenny: so that would have been before ’48, wouldn’t it then?

Yes

And it was his son...his son had one arm, I know it was a tragedy...it was a tragedy, he’d been brought at the boys...three boys had been brought a gun for Christmas and I just couldn’t....no-one could believe it, that was the story...and this, this boy had his arm shot off, he had a stump of an arm

Oh crikey

That was the story Mr Booton, I said it’s such a lovely building I would have loved gone over it, only a friend next door, Mrs Smith....who’s in the...started it off with the committee for this...Longbridge area...

Jenny: Norma Smith, that’s the one...

She said they were meeting there for their meetings that’s handy isn’t it?

The friends of Barking Park meeting?

Yes, friend of Barking Park

Ah yes, yes

Mrs Smith....have you met her?

No I haven’t but I might, I might drop in and put a leaflet through her door or something

She, she’s a nice person and erm good neighbours, but we don’t fall over each other, we might not see her for two year

Jenny: let’s go back to the park

[Laughs]

Jenny: let’s go back to our memories, we XXXX

[Laughs] its ok

Jenny: there’s a man....what’s name Rod....Ron that I went round to see, the one who had said he wanted some pictures or Band...that...he lives in Salisbury Avenue, he’s lived in Barking a long time

Oh really?

Jenny: He was the one who was always a keen dancer

What was his name Jen?

Jenny: Ron...I’ve got his name indoors...big Ron but I can’t remember...what else...

Have you got the picture of the band Jen?

Jenny: no, oh yes I’ve got the picture of the band but not here, but erm I’m looking for the park pictures aren’t I? I think...XXXX

Lovely, lovely

Jenny: sorry I can’t see...XXXX

Frank: no it’s...

Jenny: any there...might be in an album

Oh there’s a better one of the fountains, shames it’s not clearer, they were lovely, they really were lovely

Frank: oh that was the XXXX was it?

The fountain dear, either end...oh...

Did you ever take a row boat out onto the...the lake in Barking Park?

What dear?

Did you ever go on a boat in the park...yourself?

Yes, I went on that steamer when it first opened with my mum and my two sisters

Frank: I did too XXX

Oh you did too

[Laughs]

Frank: but I went on a few times and also...I fairly XXXX went on a rowing boats

Oh ok

Frank: thank you dear erm... on the rowing boats...cos our house was almost facing the park, just a long there...Shirley Gardens or Lyndhurst...

Was it quite hard work to do the rowing on the lake or was it...?

Frank: yes it was alright

Yeah

Frank: XXXX

Jenny: mum said they used to have races in the...didn’t they mum? They used to have races on the lake?

Used to...

Jenny: have races on the lake... was it in the canoes?

Yes, yes, oh they called them skiffs

Jenny: skiffs, skiffs

One man rowing, and when I see it the other night...

Jenny: yes

I was looking for Hunter

Jenny: no he won again

Did you see him talk Mark?

Jenny: no but they won the world championship...yeah

Oh mark...his name underneath but he was talking, I thought, I hope Jen seen him, they used to be her neighbours

Oh did they?

Jenny: back to the park

[Laughs]

Hunter, Mark Hunter

Jenny: yeah, doing very well

Yes, I remember going on there and holding on the railing [Laughs]

Jenny: how about that big steamer thing, that used to be on there?

What Jen?

Jenny: that big paddle steamer...

Yes

Jenny: is that the picture of it?

Yeah, lovely

Frank: more XXXX in the old days

Jenny: would you hold onto the railing because you were afraid of falling?

I expect so [Laughs] 1931

Jenny: so you have to pad this out a bit, haven’t you?

Sorry?

Jenny: you’ll have to pad it out a bit

Oh it’s been, been great help for me because, it’s nice to hear people who actually saw it during the war because a lot of people...all the guns and everything

Oh I know...that it is...

Jenny: she’s mentioned all the

All the guns and everything, you were telling me that the house used to shake, when the guns went off?

What dear?

You were telling me your house used to shake when the guns went off weren’t they?

That was Anna Neagle

Yes

Anna Neagle

Frank: where

Did you know?

Yes I did

Just came to me

[Laughs]

Anna Neagle

Jenny: has it got the name down the bottom

No name no

Jenny: no

Do you remember seeing Anna Neagle, at the charter celebrations?

Well I was too busy entertaining with the country fair scene, no I hadn’t seen her but rumour soon went round...the rumours soon went round...it’s lovely to remember it by...XXXX

Frank: was there a water wheel or...

What dear?

Frank: was there a wheel somewhere dear, or was it on the back?

No perhaps that one came after this one, when was that 19...50

Frank: ‘51

Must have been before that one

Are you looking...that is a paddle one.

Oh it is

If you just let me see a second, I think

Frank:....looking for the paddle

Erm the paddle is right at the back, it’s not very clear

Oh that is it then yes

Frank: XXXX

[Laughs]

Cos I went on it went it first started, the old XXXX [Laughs]...Mmh...

Frank: XXXX

What dear?

Frank: look like their got half a XXXX

That’s Longbridge road, that’s the green on the right...

Jenny: want a bit of battenburg

Aren’t these lovely to keep for the council

Jenny:...battenburg

Oh I’m fine thank you

The old boat house

Frank: thank you dear

That’s lovely...that’s a lovely picture isn’t it?

Yes I think that’s the Park Avenue entrance

No South Park

Oh is that South Park

That’s the South Park entrance

Ah ok

South Park entrance

Jenny: is there...

I’m sure...

Jenny; not like it is now...

This, this is the main entrance...that’s 1950s...

Jenny:...yeah but when you go in South Park now, you have that ride down...

Down to the paddling pool

Jenny: that’s not the paddling pool end is it? I think that the Loxford...

It used to be the paddling pool for the children

Jenny: yeah, no I don’t think it’s that end, I think it is Park Avenue look

Barking Park

Jenny; because that’s the wide...to get down to the paddling pool, you’ve got that

Oh yes, that’s the lake, yes

Jenny: narrow, yeah

That’s the lake and the island, so it would be from the triangle

Jenny: so is that the triangle or from where you used to live?

Yeah...

Jenny: cos mum used to live in Park Avenue, as Loxford...what is it? Loxford House

And we used to be on the swings, Ed and I every night after tea and mum say ‘be home by eight o’ clock’ we’d run all the way home

Jenny: back to the putting shed

[Laughs] yes those fountains, do you remember

Jenny: yeah I remember

They were lovely, but that doesn’t do it justice, they were beautiful

Jenny: I remember that

It you get that clearer, that would be lovely

Yes

Jenny: and the diving board was here as well, wasn’t it?

Could you talk about that, if you don’t mind, if you mind just sort of describing what a day out at the lido would have been like for you?

Jenny: for me or...well the turnstiles were still there weren’t they? Use to go through the turnstiles and you turn right and there’d be the restaurant and then you go into the changing rooms and then we’d always sit over the back...erm

Oh in the sunbathing area

Jenny: That bit there and sunbath, especially during the school holidays, you’ll all meet up on that bit and obviously go swimming but then the best bit was when you used to go back to the restaurant and there be...the wagonwheels, buy wagonwheel, which were huge, I think they seemed huge because we were little

[Laughs]

Jenny: they’ve definitely got smaller now, and erm Bovril, like they’d do hot Bovril, you know...just...bits and pieces and erm, you’d spend the whole day there, it was really lovely.

So did you use the slide and the diving boards as well?

Mind you tea dear?

Jenny: erm...not really...I’m a bit chicken

[Laughs]

Mind your tea, XXXX I didn’t want you knocking the glasses and tea over, mind your arm, keep it in the chair, your touching the cup and saucer nearly

Frank: right oh

Jenny: no it was lovely; it’s such a shame, that it’s closed I suppose it was the up keep of it, but erm...

Can I have my frame please Jen?

Jenny: but it seemed huge...

Sorry

Jenny: you know it seemed...

Frank:...Barking...not so old...1920...

1920

Frank: that would be

Ah, oh sorry [Laughs]

I was born 1918

Jenny: you were born 1918

Yes

Jenny: where were you born mum? In Loxford house?

In the house yes

Jenny: in Loxford house?

We had a midwife in those days, nobody went to hospital

[Laughs]

And poor mum had seven

Crikey

She lost the first baby

Jenny: did she? Oh I didn’t know that...see

You learn something as well

Jenny: do you live in Barking?

Erm I actually live in Walthamstow

Jenny: oh right

So erm it not too far away

Jenny: no

Especially with the overground now

Jenny: I know that’s really handy, isn’t it, Gospel oak line

It’s only about twenty minutes, I think

Jenny: I know, we erm...used to go Walthamstow market

Oh did you?

Jenny: now and again, you know when you get that...but I haven’t used the line for ages and then...had to go to XXXX erm...out...like an out source clinic erm...Tottenham, Harrigay

Oh right ok

Jenny: so we, we got the erm...Harrigay lane

Harrigay green lane or something

Jenny: yeah Harrigay green lane, so...

It’s all of the above [Laughs]

Jenny: it’s really nice efficient line now isn’t it?

Yeah, it’s quite handy

Jenny: yeah, I was coming into the boathouse...I remember that’s the, that’s the...other entrance isn’t it there

Ok....so did you used to sort erm...meet your friends at the boathouse to go rowing or anything like that?

Jenny: no, no

Ok

Jenny: used to go and play tennis

Ah

Jenny: especially after Wimbledon had been on, you’d always get loads of people

[Laughs]

Jenny: in the tennis courts and we’d go in the evening...because it was so convenient, cos...being here, and everybody probably came round here and then we’d go over there and erm...we’d go swimming and then you had the carnival in September so you...and that was brilliant because you’d just stay over the fair

Yeah

Jenny: sixpence and that with like XXXX, so that was...early ‘60s, probably I’m thinking of and erm...take a sixpence over with me and it’ll last the whole evening

[Laughs] wow, it is a bit different from now, isn’t it

Jenny; I know, I know, that hasn’t been...is that still there, the boathouse

Unfortunately, I think not because they’re doing a redevelopment in that whole area

Jenny: yeah we’ve been over there recently...perhaps I didn’t notice, the thing is you walk round sometimes, and you don’t notice

Yeah

Jenny: we did erm...park in the new car park down...

Ok

Jenny: you know when you go down South Park Drive and just walked all round but you couldn’t get...although the lake is filling up, you couldn’t get close

Yeah

Jenny: close to it...

I mean, I think they’ve actually finished filling it now

Jenny: oh

They’re just finishing sort of the building works and...Cafe

Jenny: yeah, so they’re making little erm...I don’t know if it’s...plants there, like little...little island, but not islands but coming out so it’s not the shape it was, it’s...you got like...platoons, that type of thing isn’t it

They’re going to have a floating dock I think

Jenny: ah

So that sounds quite exciting

Jenny: no it’s lovely...and it’s always been such a...nice..park, never really much trouble there is there

Mmh

Jenny: well perhaps they did have some...

I think it won sort of safest park or something in London last year or something

Jenny: did it?

But they worked really, really hard, so I believe there was a period, there was starting to get a little bit of trouble in the park, but they really sort of clamped down on it straight way

Jenny: yeah

And now it’s erm...

Jenny: no and erm...whenever I go back over there, it just feel...like you’re going back to when you was a teenager because, you know walking by the side of the lake and walking round the garden part, that’s just some change, like the feeling XXXX changed it’s lovely...and the beautiful trees...oh yeah they’ve got some, definitely got some good photos of the erm...charter

Oh thank you

Jenny: with the...all of them dressed up...anti-aircraft gun...what’s that, is it the First World War?

Yes that’s the end of the First World War, that picture was taken

Jenny: oh right

I couldn’t find any pictures at all of the guns during the second and I don’t know whether that’s because, they’re classified [Laughs] or what, but I was hoping someone might have some you know sneaky that they took themselves

Jenny: yeah

But unfortunately not, which is a real shame, cos it’s almost like a period, that you know a history black spot in the, the history of it, isn’t it?

Jenny: yeah, I reckon that erm...Ron, I know he lives in Salisbury Avenue...he would probably have some good memories, I think he’s...coming up for ninety, so just a little bit younger, but

Well if you do speak to anyone, please pass on my details to them

Jenny: yes...have you got your phone number?

Yes I’ve got a leaflet here, so I’ll give you one of those

Jenny: I remember the paper coming through the door...erm for mum

I’ve written my name on that, that’s one of our leaflets

Jenny: oh lovely

And I think I left you a leaflet last time, didn’t I? I gave you a leaflet last time?

Jenny: oh so this isn’t your first time Claire?

Sorry?

Jenny: you’ve been round....

Oh I came round before, but I think had our wires crossed a little bit, and I didn’t want to do an interview and have to sort of XXXX on the

Jenny: cos mum said ‘oh lady from the...council came round’

Oh right

Jenny: erm I think...I thought Westminster home care, I thought like the social services

Oh ok

Jenny: so I don’t know whether they thought you were...

No I was from somewhere else [Laughs] woops [Laughs]

Jenny: and where’s all the details kept...at the...oh right, Ilford Methodist Church basement.

Well that’s where our office is based, but we’ve been commissioned to do the oral history project by Barking Park, so technically we’re working with the London Borough of Barking and Dagenham

Jenny: Right

And the Heritage Lottery Fund, who are funding the project

Jenny: is that thorough the national lottery?

Yes, yes the Heritage Lottery...Fund erm they’re...and then hopefully, eventually all the oral histories will go into the Valance House Museum and archives there, so...

Jenny: oh nice

...everyone can sort of access it and hear people memories and be lovely, it should be really, really nice...oh thank you

Jenny: let me just erm...

Frank: Barking Abbey School

Barking Abbey yeah

Frank: had two skiffs, on the lake

Oh ok

Frank: and I think, I can’t be too sure, there were four rowers and a Cox...

So they actually owned two skiffs themselves~?

Frank:....I was thinking that, did they actually own it or do they just hire

Ok

Frank: but erm...they obviously need maintenance...and one year they just weren’t there anymore [Laughs]

Oh that’s...

Frank: four...and a Cox and we used to rush off, after school to see which team could get to the...skiff before the other because there was gradual...damage to them and erm, you wanted to get there before the other team was because...once you got started at one end of the lake or the other it wasn’t, and you got to the islands, there wasn’t enough room for two to row...side by side...on one side of the lake or the other, so it was great advantage to get there first, the other team couldn’t pass you...but the XXXX, I don’t think the staff or many of the pupils, had any interest at....you didn’t see...several teams or groups lined up at five o’clock...but we liked it, that why we kept...

Jenny: still looking

Frank: well that’s all....I’m sure Jenny will find stuff for you

I’ll just stop the tape now actually, cos I think it’s about to run out, I’ve forgotten how long I’ve been here, I’ve been here two hours, can you believe [Laughs]

Jenny: do sure you don’t want a drink

Oh I’m fin-

[TAPE END]

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Iris Tingey

Project: Barking Park Oral History Project

Date: 5^th September 2011

Language: English

Venue: Interviewee’s home

Name of interviewer: Claire Days

Length of interview: 116:20

Transcribed by: Paris Sydes

Archive Ref: 2011_esch_BaPa_06

2011_esch_BaPa_07

2011_esch_BaPa_07

Okay, that should be fine

Can I start by asking you to spell your name and your date of birth?

Pam P-A-M Beech B- Double E - C - H and it’s the twenty fifth of April 1933

Where were you born?

In Barking

Did you go to school in Barking?

Yes. Yes.

Which school?

I went to the Manor School round in Sandringham Road, I don’t suppose you know local at all do you?

A bit

Yes, yes

And what was school like?

Oh. Fine. I mean I’d only been there a little while when the war started and so it closed for a little while because lots of people were evacuated but I stayed at home [laughter] my mum didn’t want me to go I think and I didn’t so but then they opened the school again so that was all a bit sort of higgledy piggledy bit strange. But no I quite enjoyed school. I mean because of the war though my mum had taught me to read, you know, because I wasn’t going to school so that was that.

So you were home schooled in a way?

For a spell, you see, until they opened the school again. Because they closed the school because of the evacuation but and then you know we had to, in the school grounds we had brick built shelters if it was an air-raid we used to have to go into the shelter [laughter]

So did the school re-open in the middle of the war, it wasn’t that it didn’t open until the end.

Oh, no. In the war, we went. I think it was that people started coming home and there were more people that hadn’t gone so then they obviously had to start school again so that we all knew where we were. But no, so that was but I mean it was a long while ago. I do remember it but not that well.

Are there anything that you particularly liked or disliked about school?

No, I just liked school I think you know, it was um I don’t know I think you had to go and so you got on with it, I think, you know, in later years people “oh didn’t like school” and all that sort of thing but I think because it was one of those things that you’ve sort of just got to do you just accepted it or I did anyway, I just had to go so

[PHONE RINGS]

[exits the room]

[tape paused]

No then well I sat the eleven plus and then went to the South West Essex Technical College which was at Walthamstow for a year because there was no room in this one, now where they’re building the houses in Longbridge road which was the South East Essex Tech and then it changed to University.

Okay

So I went there you know when I was eleven or whatever. So, I’ve always been in Barking [laughter]

How old were you when you finished school?

Sixteen, I left at sixteen and went to work in a bank

Okay, how did you find it having to leave school to then go into working

There again I think it was just one of those things I think you’ve got to do, you know you had to leave school, well some stayed on but I wasn’t terribly bright and you know there wasn’t quite the same situation where by people stayed on and unless there was something you particularly wanted to do which needed more education you general rule you left school and went on to work. I think I was terribly green when I went to work, when I think about it now I was still young and I can’t imagine really. It’s appalling to think that I was so naïve but there you go. I’m sure we all were, or lots of us were.

I think that’s quite a common thing for people to say

I think so yes.

It was you know, I went into the bank and stayed there until I got married and then started my family.

So what were you doing at the bank?

Oh, just on the machines you know. Um. There was nothing. Oh no they were electric that was something, I think first of all we had them with handles you know and you put it all in and you pulled a handle but then we did have slightly more modern ones. Huge things you know nothing like computers and things that they do now. Just got on with it and I quite enjoyed it.

Going back to what you said earlier about how you were at school when the war broke out how was growing up whilst there was a war on.

Oh yes, well I don’t know we just sort of took it for granted I think, and we had an air-raid shelter in the garden you know if there was an air-raid we got into the garden and went down into the shelter and um the bombs dropping and hearing the aeroplanes going over but I suppose because I was, what was I, I was six when the war started it sort of almost became part of life. When I went to the senior school we used to go on the train from Barking and we used to see the flying, what we called the flying bombs, didn’t have pilots you know they were just XXXX things, I don’t know but they were following the river, trying to get to the docks I think you know to bomb the docks. And we used to sit in the train and watch these things going along. When I think about it my mother must have been terrified that I was only eleven and having to do that and go out every morning and you know during the war sort of thing. But I think we just had to well there was nothing else you know we didn’t know anything else really. For being six when it started you know but then it went on you know it was peace time and things changed but the more I think about it now you know life was different but I just think my mother must have been so worried really seeing me go off, you know, to that big school and watch the aeroplanes

Especially if you were telling her about watching these things go past, if one of them had veered off and hit the train or anything

Yes, it must have been really quite frightening for her. I think we just thought it was a bit of fun really but there you go we didn’t know any better.

When you, after you worked in the bank you said you got married, what year was that in?

Um [counts] 1956, yes 1956 I got married [laughter] I can’t remember now. Um yes so and I had three children and you know you didn’t go back to work in those days you stayed at home and looked after the children so that’s what I did but, yes, it was 1956. It was a long while ago but I’ve been a widow for um well my husband died in 1989 so I’ve been a widow for a long time. But life goes on and you get on with these things.

Again if we do touch on anything you don’t particularly want to talk about just say and we can pause

It’s been such a long time dear, I don’t want to say I’ve got used to it, but you know yes you just. That’s life I’m afraid. As I say I had three children but my eldest son died when he was twenty five he had a heart attack in 1982 so you know, these things happen and you can’t cope with it at the time well you do, you’ve got to cope with it at the time perhaps I couldn’t of talked about it at the time but I can now because you know you get older and you realise that that’s life and life’s got to go on. But no, it’s one of those sad things but you have to accept that that’s what life throws at you.

Yeah, so what did your husband do for work?

He worked for Plessey’s who were an electrical company in Ilford and um he was an electrical engineer but um he’d been in the air force, he’d had to go and do his national service but he’d signed on for extra years but while he’d done almost five years in the air force his father had then died so he came out of the air force then to be with his mum and his sister but um then he went to work for Plessey’s but as I say he was an electrical engineer so he was local you know. None of us have moved very far.

Not like these days

No no, but I’ve got a daughter that lives next door to me so she hasn’t gone very far although life will be changing for her but that’s by the by and that’s her son up there, yes in his cap and gown but he got his degree and then his masters. I had somebody come down, well the fellow who came down to take a blood, you know, sample and he thought they were twins but no it’s the same boy just a few years apart but yeah so that’s my very boring life really.

How old were you when you had children, you said you had three

Um yes so twenty three, twenty four and twenty six, something like that so yes. Life is different now but um yes, you start thinking about things then don’t you

If we move on to the park

So what is your first memory of Barking Park?

Well I suppose it was being taken there by my mum and dad we used to walk around the park and feed the ducks and that sort of thing, you know usual sort of things that you did. Um. But yes I mean I suppose that was perhaps as we got older I remember more because they had the barrage balloon in the park in the war so you weren’t allowed to go certain places in there and keep out of the way but yeah you know and they always had, well there’s a fair up there now [laughter]

Yeah

I couldn’t believe it when I went past this morning with my daughter in the car, oh dear how many years have we been having a fair in Barking Park? I can’t imagine! But they always had a this time of year, September time I think we always had a carnival and parade and park the fair in the park, it went on for years and years [laughs] but of course once I had my children then you start it all over again going to the park and going to the swimming pool well I did when I was younger and then the children then I think I went through it all again when my daughter went back to work and I looked after this one, he’s now thirty three so that was a long while ago as well we used to take him over there and feed the ducks and thing and later on we used to go over and watch him play cricket because he used to play for the school and he went to the Abbey School next door to the park and they used to have their games in the park so I used to go over and watch him after school.

At the end of the war when you were allowed to go places that you hadn’t been able to before did that turn into a bit of a game that people would suddenly be able to explore all these bits that, because obviously with the war starting when you were six you wouldn’t of been able to do that before because of the age.

Oh yes! You did more things and went out and had outings and that sort of things but at the same time of course um well my parents didn’t have a car or anything and you know there wasn’t enough money to you know do too much you know you had to be a bit frugal I suppose but no the park was quite a meeting place and quite a place to go to see, you would often see quite a lot of people on the Sunday all going for a walk around the park and taking the children out with their bats and balls and that sort of thing but yes.

In terms of staffing within the park what was that like when you went to the park as a child and post war compared to when you took your daughter because people talk about a lack of staff these days but

Oh yes, yes there were always park keepers and people who were looking after it and working in there and because they always had people one or two of them were on bikes and they used to ride around and then we had the greenhouses up there where the men used to work and grow all of the plants for the borough so there were always people keeping an eye on everything, wouldn’t let you go mad or anything.

So were they quite strict

Oh yeah fairly strict, you weren’t allowed to ride your bikes or anything like that through there to behave yourself

That must have been quite annoying when they were riding around on bikes and you weren’t allowed to

Oh yes and you weren’t allowed to. That was just to keep an eye on everybody and that sort of thing and then, well years ago now, you often got the mounted police in riding around to see that there was no trouble and that sort of thing going around on their horses you know. I mean we often used to see that because they would leave Barking Park, on their horses, and ride through the turnings and on to Mayesbrook Park, you know Mayesbrook Park?

Yeah

Yes and so often they used to sort of come down here on their horses on their way to Mayesbrook Park so it all links you know. They weren’t there every day but you know they used to ride around so you’d see them.

Was it that they had a day when they would tour around all of the parks just to check that they were…

Yes, I suppose to have a bit of a look at you and I suppose yes, I can’t remember now but I don’t suppose it was the same day every week or anything like that so that people didn’t know that they would be there. I think you know, I don’t know I think because there were staff in the park, and they usually wore uniforms and that sort of thing, and I do think in those days we were sort of, not frightened, well frightened of them I suppose well certainly very aware you know you would be very, you’d watch ya, you’d watch yourselves you wouldn’t misbehave but you know it was one of those different attitudes now I think isn’t it? But yes so there were always plenty of people up, working in the gardens, keeping it all clean and tidy and watching what everyone was doing walking around the lake and making sure that nobody was drowning. We had the boats and the train and all sorts you know?

You mentioned the nursery, was that growing flowers for the whole borough then not just the park?

For the whole borough

So it wasn’t just seedlings for the park?

No, no, no. it was you know where they put them in around different houses or around different buildings you know, they used to grow everything up there then, I think they also sold somethings then you know but I can remember, you know, whether we went from school or whether it was a Sunday school outing or something I don’t know, but I do remember as a reasonably oh I don’t know perhaps twelve or thirteen something like that going round the nursery’s to see what they were doing up there with and then what was now well I don’t think they’ve got them now I suppose they all got pulled down but um they’ve got the allotments but there now haven’t they so um times change [laughs]

With the boats and the train was that anything that you ever went on or took your children on?

Oh yes, I took my children on and then my grandson we definitely took him on and um I didn’t take him on the boats, I wasn’t brave enough other people could do that. Um I’m not terribly keen on water, I don’t mind being in it, you know I never minded going swimming or being in water at the sea but for some reason or other I don’t like, I’ve always had that feeling that I am going to walk into it and opposed to walk along side it. Oh I used to hate it when the children fed the ducks and would walk right up to the edge and throw the bread out and I’d think ooh gosh if they fall in they’re going to drown and I’m going to have to get wet. It’s funny because I’m still the same I don’t mind being in it, well not now, but I could never walk along near it, well I didn’t like it but there you go.

So did you go on the train also?

Yes, yes. I mean at one time it went around the back of the pond of the lake but then it just went, I don’t know why they changed it really but then it used to go from the gate and just down to the bottom and turned around and come back again

Was that something that your children and grandchildren enjoyed?

Oh yes, simple pleasures. I don’t know whether the children would like it now, I don’t suppose they would they’re all too sophisticated aren’t they, they’re too old of their age but that’s me getting old but no they seemed to enjoy it because when you went over there there wasn’t a lot to do so you know you had to um you enjoyed that because there wasn’t a lot else to amuse you, you know, unless you were playing cricket and football or whatever. I’ve played enough cricket in my time so [laughs] I had two boys and my grandson so we did play a lot of cricket over there I suppose

So did you go over there regularly to play sport with them?

Yes, quite a bit yes especially as the children got older and my grandson got older because um the gardens were never big enough for it once they got older and bigger playing football or cricket with them the ball would end up being throw the window or two or three houses along so you know you needed to go to the park so that they could have a good slosh at the ball. [Laughs]

With the lido, what was that like?

It was you did have to queue up because they obviously controlled the number in there to get in but that was quite nice it, it yes some people sort of lived up there all summer, it wasn’t one of those sort of things that appeal to me to that extent but there were always things floating on it, leaves and flies things that had drowned so, you know, in that respect it wasn’t I would sooner, if I went swimming I would prefer to go to an indoor one. I mean that was nice but really I think the lidos are much more, I mean you did swim yes, but it was more if you liked the sun and I don’t like the sun and the sun doesn’t like me so um you know I never really wanted to just go up there and have a little swim then lie in the sun, I didn’t like it but one of the things to do was there were always leaves and bits floating on the top which you know are just bits that fly about anyway so but um but no we did go up there and quite enjoy it but it was one of those strange things really, but yes I think I possibly enjoyed the indoor swimming better but it was a shame really when it closed because I think people did all enjoy it you know so but it’s like everything else and it all changes don’t they so.

Did you ever use any of the other facilities in the park like the paddling pool or the tennis courts?

Oh yes, yes you know well I don’t think I did particularly you know but the children did and they all went up there but then again there weren’t that many tennis courts so you sort of had to wait, wait your turn and that sort of thing but no they all enjoyed it and I used to take them up there in the paddling pool bit they enjoyed that, someone always fell over and got wet but that was life but no and there was always the pavilion then where they could have a drink or an ice-cream or something, you know, so that all helped to pass the time and give them something to do.

You said that your grandson was playing cricket for the school in the park so did they use the park instead of having to have their own sports ground

They had a sports ground on the other side of the road behind the garage um but it really wasn’t big enough for a well they were 12, 14, 14 age then I suppose but that wasn’t big enough so they played in the park when it was a proper match so that it wasn’t so dangerous otherwise they’re that age that they can hit the ball pretty far but yes my daughter was at work so I used to go and watch him, you know, play and my husband did when he was alive you know we did do a lot of cricket training, he did play football but he wasn’t so keen on the football really because he couldn’t wear his glasses so but I mean he did wear glasses for cricket, I’m sure he shouldn’t of done but I mean he did but no yes the school used the park, I expect they had to get permission and all of that sort of thing but there was always or often on Saturdays and Sundays there were well I presume Barking had a cricket team you know and they played over there and you know the older people used to come you know men used to play, it was used you know a lot I mean well they do still certainly play football because depending on what sort of weather it is and which way the wind is blowing you often hear them here you know playing football and calling out. I don’t know why men have to shout such a lot when they play football but they do so you think oh yes, playing football today you know but so you know it was, I think it was used a lot um well because I suppose there wasn’t an awful lot of other things to do so you know it I’m sure they’re hoping that once they get it all sorted out over there people will use it more don’t they?

Well it’d be silly to put that much money in to it if they think people will go and do something else

Well yes you know I do hope they’re not wasting their money but um well I’m you know I think the thing is they have got to have plenty of, plenty of staff haven’t they and make sure that it’s kept safe, I think that was a lot of the trouble you know it got the stage where the children used to go on their own and then things always seemed to get a bit nasty and so you didn’t like to let them go on their own and they didn’t necessarily want you know mum and dads or grandparents with them but you know you got to a stage where you didn’t like to let them go on their own, I mean I don’t know what I’d do now I think I’d have them wrapped in cotton wool in the corner or something but you know but I do feel nowadays, I’ve got two little boys well one has gone to senior school this year, this you know this month um but I know their parents won’t let them go out and do things on their own you know well I am sure when mine were that sort of age they did where as no I think people are much more nervous about it all aren’t they because unfortunately you do hear nasty stories about it and so you know but I think when they do get it all sorted they’re going to have to have plenty of staff over there aren’t they looking after it.

I think they have a new team that will be looking after the park in, maybe not as strict as it used to be, but it will be well looked after

Yeah, just for safety sake for the children’s sake and well everybody really. Well I presume they’ll still let people walk around with their dogs but that was another thing was felt that people weren’t careful with their dogs you know I think now they’ve got a lot more aware haven’t they of clearing up after their dogs and that sort of thing

I was walking through before and there were special bins the dogs

Well yes that’s it.

Do you have to spend a lot of time up there?

I wasn’t sure how long the bus would take me to get down here with traffic so I came a bit early but then I was thought I’d go and sit in there, couldn’t find a bench anywhere.

Oh well there were always plenty of benches I mean I when I used to take him for a walk and I’d walk around the park and he’d fall asleep “oh that’s good I’ll find a bench to sit down” rather than walking about with him asleep so but I mean there were but people stole them or just broke them up for you know no reason, it’s a bit like anywhere now isn’t it. Bus stops, why do they always have to break the windows? But as I say I presume that’s why the pavilion closed because people broke windows or got in an smashed it up and that sort of thing you know so very difficult to keep things usable.

What was the pavilion like?

Oh it was very nice when it was new, it got a bit run down but it was you know very nice. People in there you know it was only cups of tea or biscuits or cakes or something you know but it was kept nicely. The family down the road, the man who comes to do my garden now, but they, there was a bomb dropped on a few houses along there and there were four children in their family, he was only little I think he was only a baby when they went up there but they lived in the flat in the pavilion during the war because they couldn’t live in their house because of bombing and damage you know and they lived up there in the park so you know it was well that was a long while ago because that was during the war but it was you know so it was quite a big place, I don’t know who normally lived in the flat upstairs or if it was just rooms that were used I’m not sure. Because the park keeper lived in the little house in the gateway there you know that was, well I always presumed it was the park keeper you know

Yeah from what we’ve heard it was always the park keeper or it was someone who worked for the park, one of the nursery workers lived there for a long time

Yes somebody to do with the park who was always there on call if need be

From what we’ve heard about above the pavilion it was often council workers who rented it from the council.

Oh I see so obviously when the bomb dropped the Wiseman family moved up there, I don’t know quite how I must ask him one of these days, I’m not sure if he’ll remember because I think he was only a baby when they went up there. You forget these things.

What about big events within the park, obviously you were born after the charter day celebrations but what about…

No, my mother was in that she was dressed up in the pageant and an aunt of mine helped to organise it but yes that was all, yes the pageant was all to do with the charter wasn’t it? So they did do things up there, I don’t quite know what really but you know different fetes and gatherings you know.

Do you remember if anything happened in the park for the end of the war?

I can’t really remember no I don’t know. I mean the thing was I suppose we still had the balloon and a few guns and things up there so they probably wouldn’t of done very much um no I mean all I can remember is when peace was declared that we all went down to saint Margaret’s church for a service down there and a thanks giving of the fact that we were all still alive but I am sure they probably did but I’d have been a teenager then and I wasn’t going to do what anyone else wanted me to do I’d got a bit stroppy then I expect. But um they always had a service for the armistice you know poppies and all that sort of thing you know there was this, well I assume they’ve still got it the memorial there, there was always a service then and I am sure there must have been other things that I have completely forgotten about but anyway.

Growing up did you ever go to the fair or the carnival?

We used to go to the fair, I never liked the fair much um but we usually took the children to the fair and we always used to go out and watch the carnival go by which was really the same every year but you know you still went and um yes that was always the children always enjoyed the fair because I mean now we seem to have two or three a year which I never really understand but then we only had the one so it was different you know you used to go I think occasionally they used to have a circus, I don’t think they have circus’ now do they ‘cause it’s not the right thing to do to have animals and things but I am sure I went to a circus up there. But um yes the well I think the fairs, I mean obviously older people did go, but I mean I think we only went to take the children because I think Saturday afternoons and that sort of thing it would open in the afternoon so you know you’d go up there and take them in the afternoon which was better than going up there at night but um but I think the carnival just got too much and people didn’t want to do it I don’t quite know why that stopped but I suppose it just out grew itself really but no it was all floats and that sort of thing and people put a lot of work into it. But I think it was a bit like everything else, people all got too involved in other things

It’s a shame when things like that come to an end

Yes, it is really

But all of a sudden people could, well people had cars and they could travel and go out for days and they didn’t really want to know what was going on in their own town and I think yes we’re all guilty of that in as much as it all seemed well people all wanted to go to new places.

Obviously for you the park was quite local but did you ever know of people who would travel from other areas to come to the park?

Oh I think people did yes.

Because obviously it was a nice grand park to come to

Oh yes, it was a nice park and it’s a bit like everything else it all changes but this sort of area had quite a good name, we were, I wouldn’t say we were better than anyone else that’s nonsense but I mean at one time it was always called New Barking which always seemed ridiculous to me but it was at one time you know the address was New Barking because of the old town you know then all of this this part well I suppose from the station really was just farm land just you know, green land I don’t know what it was for but the pub was there but there wasn’t much else so I think what with the park and um all these new houses they built then you know this was always considered to be the posh end of Barking, it’s absolute rubbish you know but it was so I think people did come because there wasn’t a park in the other part of the town you know. No I think people did come because it was a nice park and they would come for the carnival and the fair and that sort of thing you know to see it and take park in it and enjoy it but no it’s all changed.

I suppose that happens to areas doesn’t it?

Oh it does yes oh definitely yes I mean we were very fortunate because we had Barking Park and we had Mayesbrook Park you know that was a nice park as well you know and um so we were very fortunate to have two very big open areas near us so

You were saying before about how your Aunty used to she helped run the pageant, are there any stories about that she told you?

No, not really just that they. Well I think my mum used to have to do it because this aunt was the eldest of the family and my mum was the youngest you see so um I think there was about fifteen years between them so I think my mum had to do everything because her sister was doing it and she had to get on an enjoy it and take part in it. But no she did all sorts of things this aunty of mine but it was she was an organiser which didn’t go down very well with some of us as we got older. But um no I mean she just did all these things and I think everybody just did as they got told. But no I mean well I think they made their own amusements much more you know my aunt used to run the Sunday school and run a club you know they took the children out for their outings and thing, you know not far. I can remember taking my children on one or two of her outings I don’t quite know where we went to be honest but um you know she was a born organiser and XXXX she would have been very involved I think in the pageant, well she was. She put on shows and little I don’t know what you’d call them I mean they weren’t dancing shows but you know little plays or something but I don’t think she did anything in the park well apart from the pageant that was obviously there. There’s a spell in your life I think between becoming a teenager and not wanted to go up there for any reason except perhaps meeting the boys or something like that and then until you’ve got children, so I think there’s a big spell in your life where the park is just there and it wasn’t you know you didn’t necessarily go anymore because you were too old.

Too old to play but then too young to play again

You have to sort of realise that in actual fact you can do all these things at any age you don’t like to think that

So before you married your husband when you were first sort of courting was the park anywhere you’d ever go together

Oh yes, you’d go and walk around the park you know just for a bit of peace and [laughs] yes that sort of thing you know but um yes so that was a different stage then yes you did you walked around the park to pass the time to be on your own that sort of thing.

You’ve set my mind racing now trying to think of things, how many of these chats are you going to have?

For the project we need to do fifteen I think this is seventh and I’ve got one next week with Val Shaw a couple of streets over.

Oh yes yes I know Val, oh good. She’ll have plenty to tell you I am sure

It’s funny when I rang her she said the same as you “oh I don’t know how much I can help”

I enjoyed it coming and listening and talking about it down at the library and then you sort of think afterwards “oh I should of said this and I should of said that” then you forget it all again you know but no oh I don’t know it’s age isn’t it. I’m too old now to remember things. It’s been interesting.

When we were in the session someone mentioned someone who would dress up as a cowboy

Oh that’s right, now I didn’t remember that at all that was the lady who was sitting the other side of me no, I didn’t remember that. She must be younger than me so I suppose there must be years in between. I mean Val might be one who remembers that because she’s younger [laughs]

We talked a little bit about feeding the ducks but do you remember any of the other wildlife or anything else that was in the park?

Um oh you always used to take nuts over for the squirrels, my sister used to take the children and the grandchildren and she always had a dish in the hall that she kept the nuts in so that when they went up there they took a handful and put them in their pockets and feed the squirrels um and now I always think people that feed the squirrels shouldn’t do because they I can’t open my back door because they try and get in they sit on my window sill and look at me [laughs] it’s all very well they may look nice cuddly things but I’ve seen what they can do when they get into a house and that’d bad but no the ducks and the swans and that on the lake and as I say there was the squirrels around and where you get tree you get squirrels don’t you. I don’t remember anything else, I expect that there were foxes but we didn’t ever see them, see them now in my garden occasionally but I don’t think anybody well I don’t ever remember seeing anything else up there.

Do you have any funny stories or anecdotes that haven’t come up?

No, I was trying to think after you phoned me but no I haven’t I think I’ve decided that I was what I would now think now I would call a goody goody [laughs] I was just um too frightened to be naughty or to get into any scrapes or anything

I suppose when the park keepers are as strict as it sounds like they were

Yes, I suppose that’s what it was, and you were yes you were aware, I don’t know if we were frightened but we respected, I think that’s the word I want, I think like anyone in uniform then you know. You weren’t frightened of the police but you know it was oh there’s a policeman better make sure we’re behaving ourselves, not that we weren’t but you know I think anybody in uniform or in charge um I think really as a rule we were very aware to behave yourself. I think I decided I was horribly goody goody child or even a teenager

Were the lifeguards at the lido similarly as strict

Oh yes yes, if you miss behaved or jumped in on people you were out you know off you went. But um yes and you always got some that played about and that sort of thing but no I think the same sort of thing htye weren’t in uniform but I think anyone in charge we did have respect as opposed to fear that was the wrong word but they were special because they were in charge and you’ve got to behave yourself but times change don’t they. But yes so anyway.

I suppose now uniforms are worn for so many thing that the instant respect that they once

It’s strange you saying that because I was only thinking the other day that everyother person who walks down the road whether they’re sweeping or what have got those orange jackets on where as at one time you would think oh gosh wonder that they’re doing I am sure half of te people wearing them aren’t doing anything they’ve just got them because I can remember seeing them on sale at the market so I though well anybody can buy one of those things so I don’t think you should be afraid but it is respect I thiunk, that’s the only word I can explain it by somebody in a uniform of some description we did respect them where as now every other person has one of those orange jackets or one of those florescent things you know I mean we had two or three weeks ago we had the sky ride there were four of them I know they were all doing a job but they had the railings up here and watching so nobody went up and down well all four of those had these jackets on you see and I thought all of the junctions going along there must have been twenty of them at least you know and I thought no it’s not the same

I suppose that’s health and safety saying they have to be perfectly visable

Oh yes that’s it but really and truly it’s got to such an extent that it’s gone the other way I think there’s so many of them that you sort of think well who are they? But there’s a limit I think it’s got to the stage now where health and safety has gone a bit over the top I think isn’t it in lots of thing but it’s a shame because it’s taken the fear out of things but you know it’s made it all too alike.

Can you remember what the uniform was like for the wardens?

I think they were just a navy blue jacket I think they had peaked caps that sort of thing but I think they were just a navy blue sort of cross between a jacket and a um tatty I think um what else can I think it was called? But they would only of been linen or cotton or something

A blazer?

Blazer yes, that’s the work I am trying to think of yes! But you know bot smart but not tatty they might have had a few gold buttons to make then look better but not quite a um yes.

With the we talked a little bit about the events and things like that but did you ever to go see any of the bands at the bandstand? Obviously living quite close you probably didn’t need to go out

Yes, no no we did sometimes because that was always quite nice having the bands in there, are they going to have the bandstand in there at all?

I don’t think there are any plans to no, it’s something that’s come up in a lot of interviews that people would like a bandstand

Yes to a certain extent but they I don’t know how well you know Barking but they put a bandstand in Barking, did you see it?

The one that’s the other side of the train station?

Yes yes well they did have a few things there I think but in the main if you walked past it was full of mostly men and nearly all of them with a can and I used to think why have barking wasted money putting that there when all it’s doing is attracting well it was somewhere for them to sit I suppose and it was covered fortunately things have changed, if they put a bandstand up there it would only be the older people who would want to see it as I don’t think the younger people would be interested particularly.

I suppose it was quite different when you were younger and bands would play that was a big thing because there weren’t many accesses to to music and there was no way to hear that without where as people now can download an album

That’s it yeah definitely, if you know what you’re doing,

Maybe there wouldn’t be the draw now

No it was nice I don’t know if it was something I was watching on the television and that was a seaside place with a band, it was probably something quite ridiculous I watch a lot of old Poirot and Marple and it was probably one of those and they were all sitting around listening to the band at the seaside and I thought oh yes I can remember doing that with my mum and dad but as you say it was there was nowhere else to go that was free to hear things like that whereas now people wouldn’t think twice about it, if I could walk up there that sort of thing I think we might like it but as a rule I mean they used to bring chairs out and put all round so you could sit out there and listen in comfort but no another thing that we’ve sort of out grown whether rightly or wrongly, it’s not always the right thing. Oh well.

So that was somewhere that you went with your mum and dad?

Well yes often if we were on holiday we did yes but then again that’s probably because it was free there wasn’t the money about like there is now

Would you pay to go into the park ones or would you just sit on the grass?

No you’d sit on the grass in the main but um yes it times have changed

I suppose that has to happen in a way

Oh yes definitely I agree

Somethings haven’t changed for the better but there you go that’s because I am getting old and miserable.

Well tell Val she’s got to tell you more things!

Yes I’m seeing her on Tuesday

Well tell her to come and see me again

[tape ends]

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Pam Beech

Project: Barking Park Oral History Project

Date: 14^th September 2011

Language: English

Venue: 49 Lyndhurst Gardens, Barking, IG11 9YA

Name of interviewer: Angela Hatcher

Length of interview: 71 minutes

Transcribed by: Angela Hatcher

Archive Ref: 2011_esch_BaPa_07

2011_esch_BaPa_08

2011_esch_BaPa_08

Ok, so that should be recording now. Um, so if you could just say your full name and date of birth please.

Yes, Mrs Margaret Ann Carey, C A R E Y. Twenty seventh of the fourth, nineteen thirty eight (27/04/1939).

Lovely, and could you say where you were born for the tape please?

I was born in Hackney Hospital. And lived in Hackney for, I think only for a few months.

And is it ok if I ask you what your parents did for work?

Yes, my er, my mother didn’t work. Well, not when I was born, er, she became a typist later life. And my father was a surveyor.

Lovely. And did you have any brothers or sisters?

Yeah, I’ve got two brothers...one’s seven years older than me, and one’s seven years younger than me.

Wow, so you’re right in the middle of the two of them!

Yes. [pause].

And can I ask what schools you went to, if that’s ok?

Er, yes, I went to Ripple School, Ripple um...Ripple School, and Park Modern.

Park Modern? Are there any particular...

Oh, and oh...

Oh sorry!

Originally I started school at Blackhorse Road, Walthamstow.

Ok. And area I know well!

Oh right [laughs]. Yes, I went to school there.

So that’s where you would have started off?

Yes I started school there, but my mum wouldn’t let me go to school, and I didn’t go to school til I was six. And she got in to trouble.

Crikey. Was there a reason xxxx...

‘Cause she, ‘cause she didn’t want to leave me. Didn’t want me to go to school. [laughs].

Aw! Isn’t that lovely though!

Yeah, it is really!

Probably missed having her little girl around the house!

She did get really told off.

Oh dear.

Nothing further, but...[pause]

Ok. [laughs].

But it was during the war, you know. And life was, you never knew if you were going to be bombed out or not. So I ‘spect that had a bearing, to it.

Ok. And is, are there any particular memories about um, about your school days that you would like to be remembered? Sort of certain characters you knew, or certain occasions?

Yeah, I enjoyed, I enjoyed um, er, Park Modern, those years. Yes, um, I liked sport, I played hockey, I played hockey for the school after I left school. Er, I enjoyed school very much.

Ok. And what did you do after school, did you work?

Er yes, I went as a junior in to a city firm, and progressed in to a policy typist. But I originally wanted to be a florist, but in those days, the apprenticeship was very low paid, and er, mum and dad just wanted some income coming in. So I went up to the city.

Ok. And how old were you when you moved to this house then, in nineteen forty five (1945)?

Er, seven.

Seven? Ok. [pause]. And is there anything in particular about your working life that you would like to be recorded, um, any particular names of firms or, type of work?

No not really. Some firms were good, and some weren’t so good. And er, but overall I enjoyed work. Um, really, yeah. Yeah, no, like I enjoyed the city. Nice atmosphere the city was then. I don’t know what it’s like now working in it, I haven’t worked for a good few years! [laughs]. And er, I left work when I was twenty six to have my first daughter. So I worked there all that time. Mostly in insurance. And always as a policy typist.

Ok. [pause]. And you said you got married at nineteen, is that correct?

Yes. Yes.

Can I ask what your husband did for work?

Um, he was er, I don’t know how to explain it, he worked in the docks but he wasn’t a docker. He was um, clerical. Clerical in London docks. [pause] And he lived in Barking.

So he was local to the area?

Yes.

Was his whole family from Barking?

Yes, yes. [pause].

And if, you mentioned earlier about um, the war years, um, obviously you weren’t living in Barking during the war years, but do you remember coming up to Barking during the war years?

Er, we was evacuated to Leighton Buzzard.

Ah ok.

On a farm. Um...and then we came back there to Walthamstow, and er, I remember the war in Walthamstow being bombed. And um, no we didn’t visit Barking, a lot, until we came to Barking. Really/ Although the Grandma and Grand-dad lived here so we must have visited them. But it was very awkward in the war you see, because you know, you had to be in at a certain time, like with the blackouts and that. And, you know, I don’t think, I don’t think we visited much in the war.

Ok.

No.

And um, talking, you mentioned there about the war in Walthamstow can you remember any particular memories that stand out in your mind, if you’re ok to talk about it?

Yes, yes, yes. Um, I remember mum at night with a candle on writing to dad in the army. And my older brother used to be on lookout for any bum-, bombs coming over. And er, he’d stand on the toilet seat looking out the window, and he’d say, oh here comes one! Oh I dunno, he saw these, and they were doodlebugs. At that time. And they made this low noise, a “mmmmmm” like that. And then, we, mum never took us in to the air raid shelter or anything, we stayed in the bedroom. And then you heard this huge explosion, and my mum used to say, oh poor, some poor devil’s got it tonight. And er, and we want-, we were bomb blasted in this pub, every window came out, and downstairs, I remember going down stairs and the, all the beer and all the spirits had broken, and it was like um, about four foot high of all drink, that we had to wade through. In the bar. And er, I can smell that drink now!

[laughs].

You know, it was so, er, but it all got repaired! [laughs]. By, I can’t remember it getting repaired but we all put back together again!

Ok.

And er, and then we had bomb blast here. And we had air raid, um, um, what’s it called, air raid damage done here. All the ceilings came in here, this house, because a bomb dropped just over on the corner and demolished about ten houses.

Crikey!

So we got the blasts being on the corner.

And your grandparents were living in this house at the time?

Er, no we were here then!

Oh you were here, oh crikey!

Yes, we’d just come, because we came at the end of the war.

Right.

Hmmm.

Do you remember feeling frightened at all then?

No! No, it’s funny that, people, no, often say that. But, no, I suppose in a way it was, you just took it for granted at that age, young age, that well, I don’t know what you thought about it really! [laughs]. No, quite exciting I suppose, in a way. Er, really. We used to go and play over on the er, bomb damage, and that was like our playground. All along these houses, climbing over them. Terrible really!

[laughs].

No, it wasn’t, never frightened.

Ok.

Well I was never frightened anyway. No.

What was it like playing on the bomb sites, was it quite a dangerous place to play?

Oh yes, if you think about health and safety!

[laughs].

[laughs] These days! They’d have had a fit! Yeah, it was all jagged and bricks and, but we had a fine old time. Clambering about.

Did you ever used to make dens and things with the debris?

Um...no, I can’t remember making those, I suspect older ones made them. I was only seven then, so I just watched the others really. But er, no, it was just taken as granted that you were bombed, and er, nobody, mum never panicked, and dad was away at war.

So it never really fazed you very much?

No, no, no.

Ok.

And I had me older brother, and then the younger brother was born in forty five (1945), as we came here, and um, he was a war baby.

[laughs].

And er, and aside the older brother, he was you know, he used to look out for me and that, so er, hmmm. No, can’t remember ever being frightened.

Yeah. It sounds like, almost like quite a happy time really, you know...

Er, yes, in a way, ‘cause you know, when you, when it was an air raid, you was all together in the room, we used to get under a table, and er, there was aunt, uncle and all sitting under there playing games and things you know, it was quite er, [laughs]...

Sounds like a family party! [laughs].

Well it was really, more that it is today you know.

Definitely.

Yeah [laughs]. Strange times.

Well it’s wonderful.

I wouldn’t wish them on anybody, but I must admit, I can’t ever being frightened of it.

Ok.

And my husband, he was ten years older than me, and er, he used to go round all these roads picking up shrapnel.

Oh, why would he do that?

I don’t know really! [laughs]. I suppose it was a prized possession in a way, that he’d got a bit of shrapnel.

Ah ok, so it wasn’t like he was collecting scrap metal for something?

No, no, no, no! It was like, Ooo, I’ve found a piece of shrapnel! I suppose, I don’t know, I didn’t know him then. Um, no, so he saw more of the war. He was evacuated as well. And er, he wanted to stay there, he was down at er, in the country somewhere he was. And they wanted to keep him. He loved it.

Really?

Hmmm.

It’s nice to hear a positive evacuee experience, because some people, obviously...

His brother ran away twice!

Oh did he?

And in the end they just kept him here, his brother. He didn’t like it at all, but Dennis loved it. Hmmm, loved it.

Luck of the draw?

But did come home. Er, I mean that must have been terrible, not to have your mum with you. My mum was evacuated with me. Because of my age, because I was young.

Right, so is that how it would work then, if you were quite young?

Yes. Yes I think if you was under a certain age, you, the mother could come. With you. But he was evacuated like without his, er, mum and dad. But er, I don’t know if that was arranged or whether my dad arranged it. But I think it was, that because of, I was young.

Ok.

That we was er, that she was with us.

What was it like sort of going away and then coming back to London, was it very different, or do you not really remember your evacuation?

I don’t really remember a lot of that. I know I had my tonsils out, um, while I was evacuated. And a bomb dropped on the hospital, my mum always said, they mucked my tonsils up! ‘Cause I was left with a lump in me throat, but I don’t know about that! [laughs]. And I do remember when we came back to London, we must, it must have been near Christmas and I saw these lights in the sky, which were probably the um, lights from the um...what are they called? Search lights!

Ok.

And my dad, must have been on leave, and he said, oh look, that’s Father Christmas going past on his sleigh! And I really believed it. But obviously they were the search lights, that lit up the sky.

That’s lovely though, that he...

Yeah! I remember things like that. I remember D-Day, going up to Trafalgar Square, and er, and the parties at Walthamstow, we had a street party. And er, yeah, so really you know, all in all, I mean we didn’t realise the suffering of the, the food shortage you know, that me mother had. And you’d hear, oh there’s oranges down Hoe Street! And, they’d get packed off to go and buy, queue up for about three hours to get an orange.

Wow!

And possibly come back without an orange. And we used to eat eels a lot, my mum used to send me down there with a little bag to get the eels. And they used to pop out the bag, I’ve never ate an eel since.

[laughs]. Did you like them when you were a child?

Well I think I ate them, but whether I liked them or not, I don’t know. And we bred our own, my Auntie bred her own rabbits and chickens. And even that I didn’t realise what we were, I mean I couldn’t eat a rabbit, or a chicken now. I’m a vegetarian now. But I mean we ate those. And all the vegetables. But, you had to I suppose. You know, there was no other alternative if you didn’t have a rabbit stew, oh the thoughts of it! Um, you didn’t eat. So...

Xxxx.

Luckily I was young because I think if I’d been older I wouldn’t have coped with it really.

[laughs].

Not knowing.

Especially if you were, had been a vegetarian as an adult!

Yeah, oh yes! Well yes, that would have been dreadful. And like, flour shortage and sugar. You know. I don’t know how we, but we all ate, and we wasn’t anything wrong with us.

Hmmm. That’s good.

Hmmm. Funny times.

[laughs]. Um...

Oh and the air, I didn’t like the masks, the er, gas masks. I had um, a Mickey Mouse one ‘cause children had Mickey mouse ones.

Wow.

To make ‘em feel a bit, oh, and that, oh, I can feel that pressure on my face now!

Did, did the fact that it was a Mickey Mouse mask make you want to wear it?

No! It didn’t, but they thought it would. It had um, I forget what it had on it, it had like red ears or something on it. And my brother, younger brother, was put in a, er, like in a big um, like a small oxygen tent. That was his gas mask.

Ok.

Placed in a whole plastic affair. But we never had to, we didn’t have any gas, but you used to have to keep practicing. In case you did.

It’s quite, quite interesting hearing you say, ‘cause I heard someone the other day told me about a Donald Duck mask, and I thought that would be really, really unusual, but...

No.

From what you’ve said...

Well, perhaps it was Donald Duck! It was a Disney Character.

Yeah.

I thought it was Mickey Mouse, mine.

It may well have been, I’m not...

I see these red things on it. In me mind’s eye.

[laughs].

In a little box, you had to hang it up, well you had to go everywhere with it.

Yeah. I just think it’s quite nice that they actually designed them for children as well.

Yes, but it was still the same, oh! Still the same, oh, I can feel that on me face now as well!

Oh, crikey! Sorry I didn’t mean to [laughs]...

Oh no, no! I mean, you know, I mean it’s amazing what spills over. I can’t remember suffering, but I can remember that! And you know, um, and not other things.

Memory is a strange thing isn’t it!

Yes, memories are strange things, yes. Good or bad, yeah, yeah. But er, hmmm, no not many bad memories, no. And then when we came to Barking and there was a lot of bomb damage in Barking Park, there was a done, er, garrison over there. And er, the houses opposite, they’re lovely houses along there, and you could buy one of those for two hundred pounds. Because of the risk, being a gun, guns in the park, there was more risk of those houses being bombed and not one of them was. So whoever had the foresight to buy one in those days, er...

Doing all right now! [laughs].

Yeah! And then we played in the, where they had all the tunnels and the, er, all brick built things over there, where the guns were, that was our playground again there. In the park, down little steps, concrete steps, and all tunnels and little rooms. And er, I was always over the playing.

Do you...?

There again it was dangerous. But no one worried! [laughs].

[laughs].

No one said you can’t go in there.

Yeah. Do you actually remember the, the guns in Barking Park?

Can’t remember the guns, no. Can’t remember the guns, but I know, like, where they were and all the er, well, where they got bombed I suppose, and it was just underground tunnels that we played in, like the men was under there I suppose. No, I can’t remember seeing any guns.

And where abouts do you think they were in the park?

They were over by um, where the Lido is, to the left of the Lido. They were all there. And then they also built some like, Nisson Huts, for people that had been bombed and hadn’t got anywhere to live. And they put them in there, and um, I forget what year it was, that they wanted to pull these big Nisson huts down, and er, the residents really loved them, they’d made them their homes. And they refused to move. And Jean next door, her sister lived in one, and she didn’t want to move at all, they had a protest. But in the end they were demolished.

Ok.

But they, they had made them in to their homes, you know, and...they didn’t want to move.

What do you think it was that made them want to stay, stay in those huts, do you think it was the location or do you think it was just, they liked the construction or...?

I think they just built it up with the bits and pieces they’d got from being bombed out, and turned it in to their home. And I suppose there was quite a little um, social network there. They were all in the same boat, and um, perhaps all similar ages, I don’t know. Made like a little community.

And not a bad location either [laughs].

Oh no, no, right by the, no, very nice, once the guns had stopped, yeah. [laughs]. Yes. Yeah, I’d like living in the park! [laughs].

[laughs]. Do you know how many Nisson huts there were, where people lived?

Um, I don’t know how many rooms they had, Jean next door would know more about that. Um...well there was quite a few, ‘cause you used to walk past them and they were like big, er, corrugated, you know like a, that shape...oh no, I really couldn’t say exactly. Without, no, not for sure. But quite a few, quite a few families lived in there. Hmmm.

Would you say the memories of the huts were your earliest memories of Barking Park?

Er...well the huts and these underground tunnels that we played in.

Could you describe the tunnels to me, if that’s ok, like where they were, and what they were like?

Well, they were to the left of the Lido, and they were um, built underground, so weeds and grass had all grown on top of them. And I remember there was lots of steps down, like, little staircases really, and I think they were like a cream colour. They were brick, they’d been like, plastered. And they just led in to like, little rooms and oh, we just played about in there. [laughs].

Was it quite exciting to play in there?

Oh yes, yeah. Yeah.

What kind of games would you imagine, or would you come up with to play?

Well I don’t know about playing games, it was just running about in there really. We didn’t turn them in to little dens or anything, we just, liked running up and down these steps! [laughs]. Er...I don’t know if we was even all-, really should have been in there now, when I think about it. But no one ever turned us out. There was quite a few of us, always running about in there. ‘Cause living so near the park, and of course the traffic was nothing like it is now. I mean we just used to walk over the park, like, walking out in to your garden. You know, the park was so accessible from here. And we was always in the park.

Did you have a regular groups of friends that you would wander over there with or...?

Er, yes, I can’t remember, they were probably from school. Um, I can’t, no, I can’t remember friends that, er, Ripple School...although there was a girl down the road, Rita. Hmmm, more I remember friends at the senior school really, more. Er, I think we used to just all meet up over there, you know. And, just play around with one another, whoever was over there. [laughs].

Whoever happened to turn up?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

What was um, in terms of, obviously after that, what is the next sort of most prominent memory, or earliest memory that you have of the Park?

Er, well the Lido was a big er, big influence in my life. Um, because we seemed to have long, hot summers, and cold winters. So every evening was a, seemed to be a hot evening in those days. For six weeks. And er, you’d have to queue up to get in the Lido, and we didn’t mind how long we stood there queueing, er, to get in there. And um, I didn’t swim, I learned to swim over there, but it was just really like a social thing, there was boys over there and [laughs]!

[laughs].

And you know, you just, it was just a nice place to go. There was two large fountains, and er, I can smell the changing rooms as well!

Could you describe...?

Kind of like a bleachy xxxx, bleachy smell, but, and all water on the floor, and oh, they were really archaic really! And the turnstile you went through, click, click, click it would go. And er, then you’d get a little locker, um, little silver disc on a piece of leather for your locker. And er, and there was a little tea bar over there. And er, no, we just used to sit on, and there was all grass and, no, it was very nice over there. But we did go in the water because it was so hot, you jumped in the water. Hmmm.

Could you describe the pool to me,’cause I’ve heard it was quite unusual?

It was very large and very blue. Lovely colour blue. And a big fountain each end that was always bubbling out. And um, um, a deep end, where there was a diving board, and a shallow end, you went down steps. Each end was a shallow end, and then the deep end was in the middle.

Ok.

And er, I was saying, oh I could swim, I couldn’t swim but I said I could swim, and these boys got hold of me and went, one, two, three, with me arms and legs and threw me in there and I, went down and up three times [laughs] I remember, seeing all these [laughs] xxxx, and I swam to the side! So I learnt to swim!

[laughs].

And they didn’t know I couldn’t. [laughs].

I suppose you had to learn really! [laughs].

But my friend was worried, ‘cause she knew I couldn’t swim. Yeah. I think it was about twelve foot six, the deep end.

Ok, wow.

So a long way down! [laughs].

[laughs] Got out quite lucky, really.

But it didn’t frighten me, well, I learnt to swim, so you know, that was alright. Yeah, and Terry Venables, the football manager, he was the um, lifeguard over there. One of the lifeguards, yeah, he used to, always be singing. So, you used to chat the lifeguards up at that age, fifteen, sixteen. Seventeen. And er, my husband never went in the, I never met him in the pool. I met him in the park, but he never went in sw-, he never swam.

Oh ok.

So I didn’t meet him in there, but I met him in the park. [laughs].

Going back to Terry Venables, how old would he have been at the time do you think?

Yes. Well you see, I’ve got a photo somewhere, and I can’t find it, I haven’t found it for a few years, um, and I can remember the dress that I was wearing with him standing with his arm around me shoulder. Um, and I’ve always said to my friends, oh, you know, I’ve got this photo of Terry Venables, and er, a friend of mine said, well you couldn’t have been over there, because he’s much younger than you. But I know that I was, and I know I had this photograph. So perhaps he was younger, although I was only about sixteen, so he wouldn’t have got a job over there I wouldn’t have thought unless, I don’t know. But I know it was Terry Venables, and I wish I could find the photo!

[laughs].

And it was a pink and white dress I had on! [laughs]

Oh lovely!

It wasn’t in the photo, it’s black and white, but I remember this dress. Funny how, you know, some things I can’t remember, but I remember that dress. And other lifeguards, but I know, I know it was over there.

Did they wear a uniform, the lifeguards?

Whites. Whites. White trousers, white t-shirt...don’t think they had lifeguard on the back. And course my son was one of the last lifeguards, in the summer of eighty six (1986). He was a lifeguard over there. And um, I forget what he wore now, he, er, he probably was all in white. Um, and the pool closed down, because er, sometimes they’d only have one person over there.

Oh, that’s a shame.

Hmmm. So, it got worse and worse, and er, sometimes there was three, and I think when it got to one, that was the end of it, and they closed the pool down then. And yet, you know, before that you had to queue up, for a couple of hours to get in.

Could you describe it as, you know, at it’s busiest that you saw and experienced, could you kind of describe how many people were there?

Oh...no, I don’t know what the limit was, I ‘spect there was a limit, ‘cause that’s why we had to queue up. ‘Cause you couldn’t go in until somebody had come out.

Ok.

But really long queues, right up to the beginning of the park here. Right to the Lido. The queue. And no one got fed up, you queued, no one pushed in, you just stood there and moved along, and hoped to get in. I never got in without queuing. But as I say when he was there, um, they had one person, but the…you see the summers were bad

Right

It was an opened aired pool and it wasn’t heated so, you know you…that’s why im saying the summers…years ago were hot because you wouldn’t have gone over there

Mmh…can you remember the water being a little bit chilly?

Oh yes

[Laughs]

you know, you put one toe in ‘ooohh’ scream, and you know all this, and then once you got your shoulders covered you were alright, but it was all that burst…putting one toe in and then another one, so it was always cold even if it was boiling hot

Mmh

I think there was a little paddling…there was a little paddling pool for the little children, just behind the fountain,

Ok

About two inches of water in there, so you know…toddlers could go in there, it was a big event, you went over there with your mums and dads and…

Ok

And we erm…I took…we took our children over there, but it had closed before the grandchildren ever went over there

Oh what a shame

Mmh

Can you remember it being quite expensive to get into the lido?

I’ve no idea, but we didn’t have a lot of money, so obviously it wasn’t too dear for my… you know my mum to give me the money to go over there

Mmh

I’ve got…I’m not very good with erm…how much things were

Mmh, so the first time you have been…went over there, would be 1945, obviously when you moved here

Yes, yes, yes

Erm…do you, do you remember other sort of…of the original features, things…

The train, the little train and that was over the other side of the park, along the lake, and you went through a long corrugated tunnel and you all screamed

[Laughs]

Cos it was dark

Wow

And erm…but then of course it run from the…erm down to the lake from the erm…gates, so the tunnel…the SS Phoenix, the steam ship, that was always there, and we’d go on that, so nothing could have been very dear, because I can’t remember my mum, ever saying ‘no you can’t go on it’ you know, we used to go on it, and erm…and that was lovely, going round the lake on that, and there’d be all deck chairs erm…and deck chairs, you know crammed packed, like next to one another, not spread out…so many people

Mmh

And tiddler fishing with the…erm net, and a jam jar, with string round and you’d fish these tiddlers out and the prize was to get…well you didn’t get a prize, but the prize possession was a…a red…red stickleback, I think it was called, it had a bit of red on it’s tummy

Ok, sounds like quite…

And oh course they al died before you got home, shame [Laughs]

[Laughs]

I know it’s awful, I mean I couldn’t do it now, but it was something to do, spend hours going up and down with this fishing net, trying to get a tiddler

Would you make your fishing nets or would you buy them?

No, erm we brought them erm, but made our own jam jars, you put the string round a certain way, so that you got a…a handle, turned it round, then you knotted it both sides, so the jam jar was out the cupboard and the string, no but the nets…no I should think…there was a shop at the top of here, called Alec Wheels, real old fashioned erm…top shop…my erm…husband used to get a penny a week I think, pocket money and they used to say that ‘I can get a little soldier’

Ah

Little soldier, and I think we got our rods from Alec wheels

Ok, erm and where was that did you say?

Well, you know where the round-a-about is up here

Yes

Well that was a high road all along here

Ah ok

Both sides, and Fanshaw avenue was still there, but…the shops went from Fanshaw avenue to Cambridge…all along, all along…I’ve got a photo of that somewhere from the change and they were all shops…you know the local butcher, there was erm…Princes a drapers shop, lovely in Princes, get anything in there, cottons and anything, and clothes and a man’s tailor shop and a bakers, fancies the bakers on the corner

Fancies

And erm and Alec Wheels, he was the only newsagent, along there and the top…he was like…toys as well, and this side…this side was houses, little houses but I know I got my wedding bouquet made in one of these houses, so she must have been a florist

Ok

So all along here up to the station, both sides were shops…

Right

Nice…you know nice little shops…and a lovely clothes shop on…on the hill that you could only look in cos they were so dear

[Laughs]

And then a couple of clothes shops, that you could pay off weekly…but you didn’t get the thing until you paid, he’s name was Gold, Jewish man…and erm a Jewish Delicatessen, along here, they used to queue there, for their bread on a Sunday, my mum used to say ‘just going round to get the bread’ and she’d be gone hours

[Laughs]

Queuing for this bread

It’s quite…

A sweet shop called XXXX along here and you had to queue up when…sweets came off the ration, big queue there, to queue and get your sweets, and erm lots of shops, all the way to the park…mmh…Pardy and Johnson’s the erm…hardware shop…I could smell that as well

[Laughs]

Moth balls

[Laughs]

And erm linseed oil and all things…and that was the only telephone in there and my mum used to give me…I don’t know what the coin was to go over there to ring an auntie up

Right

And the telephone was in the Pardy and Johnson’s

So he provided that service or…?

He must have provided that service, yes you had like a little erm containa door to get in and you pressed A to get through and pressed B to get your money back, if you…if the person didn’t answer

It sounds very complicated doesn’t it?

[Laughs] yeah my mum couldn’t do it, so she…and oh there was a co-op over there, and we got a XXXX and I can remember that number, 8-3-7-3-1-2

Oh

And you had to give this number and you got a little ticket and then mum got XXXX at the end of whenever

Ok

So she used to send me over there as well, and ‘don’t forget to give the XXXX number’

[Laughs] and that is engrained in your memory

Yes, I can still remember that, and I can’t remember other things, but erm, remember that

Ah that’s lovely

Yes, oh it has changed oh

And all those little shops do sound quite delightful

Oh they were lovely, lovely shops, lovely shops, yeah

Could you describe…

Barking was lov…they had nice shops in Barking

Yeah

Really nice shops

I’ve seen some old photographs and it all looks very…you know, it’s very sort of XXXX almost

Mmh, mmh, there were manhattans’ and if you tried a dress on you had to put all tissue paper over your head

Oh really

Before you put the dress on [Laughs]

Sounds a bit extreme doesn’t it? [Laughs]

I know, but it was, it was, it was nice, those days should come back [Laughs]

[Laughs] I would love to see it, so yeah [Laughs]

Yeah, yeah you can’t, can’t explain it to people really

Yeah

Can’t explain, how it was

It must be…

But you live with it, to change and there you go

I was wondering if you could describe like a typical day, if you were going over there, to fish for tiddlers, if you could describe that whole experience to me

Right

If that’s’ ok

Well you’d probably take some jam sandwiches, wrapped up in..brown paper…didn’t have freezer bags and things like that or…little boxes or anything erm wrapped up and some…a bottle of drink…bottle of Tizer or something and off you go…and you could be over there oh…just doing the tiddlers, sitting on the grass and erm mums and dads liked you to be out all day really [Laughs] I don’t know why, but they did [Laughs]

[Laughs]

Go over the park, you know, come back for tea, and erm, well I’ve done it with my children ‘go and play cricket in the park’ and they’d be over there all day, playing cricket

Yeah

And come back for their tea, my grandchildren, not so, because I’d never let them go over the park on their own, that’s how things have changed…from my own to the grandchildren…and erm…I’d go over there with them, where as the children could…my own children could always go over the park

Ok

And erm…yes and then you’d sit and have your sandwiches, did go on the swings, swings were big important thing

[Laughs]

And…they’ve knocked them all down, I’ve noticed now in the park, but they’ll be replaced, but they were really basic swings, you know, swing and a slide, and a…called an umbrella

Umbrella?

Yeah, it was like…umbrella shape, and you sat on these slats and held on and cos the boys being boys, whizzed it round so fast and it used to go like this and very exciting and a horse, a rocking horse, over there, that you all sat on about eight of you could sit on it, and the one in the front held onto two iron ears or things and erm that was very good, yes

That does sound quite exciting

Yes, yes…the big swings, what we called big swings, just a piece of…erm wood and you sat on and get ever so high, as high as you could and baby swings, you know with the…you put them in and…and they’re in cased in there so they could fall out, I suspect some did, but

[Laughs]

And erm, yes the umbrella and slides, in that same compound, same place where it is now, and you take a bat and a ball and erm you’d play bat and ball games and buy

Ok

And buy an ice cream in the erm…pavilion, and erm then come home…had a nice day out and this was everyday, but you never got bored with it, well it was the only thing to do, quite honestly

Ok

Erm yeah, good days

And what about sort of the train and the, the Phoenix you mentioned earlier

Mmh

How often would you go on those, do you think?

Erm…well we used to go over with my mum and dad, it was the Sunday afternoon walk, you’d walk in the park with them and erm you’d go on it then, perhaps it was only on a Sunday that you was allowed to go on those, although I seem to think I went on it lots of times, erm my own children went of it quite a lot and the grandchildren were never off the train, in fact they had a little season ticket, because they were on it so much

[Laughs]

Backwards and forwards

How much was a season ticket?

I don’t know, I have got a photo and I think…well that’s modern…more modern day…thirty p, thirty p there and back, thirty p return I think it says, I don’t know how much it was for when my children went on it, but erm…they’d go on it, and there was a little level crossing in the middle erm, which has been bordered up now, it’s not a level crossing anymore, erm and people used to have to wait, who used that side entrance, but the entrance’s been blocked up now

Oh

…the little train to go by, so erm and then there’s the boats, and my grandson worked on the boats

Oh did he?

Until he…erm two years ago, the boats closed…or was it last year…when did the boats close…last year or the year before, and he worked like as a little holiday job from school

Ok

And erm, he enjoyed that, the little motor boats

Did he know Alec then?

Yeah

Could you talk about Alec for me if that’s ok, cos I’ve never meet him?

Well, no erm…I won’t talk about Alec

Oh ok

Really, erm very nice man, and erm he said to Billy, you came here as boy and you’re leaving as a man

[Laughs]

And he taught him a lot and erm…erm he was quite strict erm with the boaters and…workers but erm…I’m ‘afraid I don’t know what happened, but something happened towards the end and…I don’t know the details, but erm…I don’t think he was very happy at the end

Oh that’s a shame, oh I’m sorry to hear that, sorry about that

Mmh

I’ll move on [Laughs]

So yes, I mean…I wouldn’t…I don’t know the details but I just know that erm, he would have been happy to have carried on

Ok

That’s put it that way, and it just coincided with Billy, going to work anyway, so he…well he might have come over the weekends cos he really enjoyed it

Yeah

Working on the boats

What kind of work would he do, could you describe it?

Erm…well he put the numbers up when you had to come in, cos you came like if number six went out at quarter past four, you got you to come back at quarter to five and you’d put the number up and call out the boat, if he was over his time and he’d pull in and moor it up and help the new people in it, and then he’d change…oil or whatever it worked with and erm put them all away at night into the middle of the erm…middle of the lake, moor them all up and cover them all up…and erm get them out, obviously, you know in the morning, and erm…they had a couple of good summers, but they had a couple of bad summers…you know people don’t use the things if the weather’s not nice…you know they’re open boats, so they’re not closed…

And did you ever go on the row boats, or the motor boats…?

Erm yes, I’ve been…my husband used to take me on the rowing boats and I have been on the motor boats with my children and the grandchildren…and my mum used to row, erm in Barking oh so she must…well she was born in Barking, mum

Ok

And she used to row, I think there was a rowing club…erm oh you know years and years ago, that is…and she used to play tennis over…cos there were beautiful tennis courts over there at one time

Ok

With proper umpire chairs, you know and

Oh wow

And all wore white, and yeah, a tennis club, yeah lovely

And she was a member of that

Yes

Did she ever tell you about that?

Erm she used…when I first started senior school and I said ‘oh we’re having tennis lessons’, and she told me like you scored it, so she…she must of quite like it, but I didn’t…those days, parents didn’t talk to their children [Noise]…what’s that

I think it’s someone walking by

[Laughs] oh he’s clapping, they’re a little bit disabled, he’s clapping

Oh right

He lives up…I thought it was the rabbit; oh he’s having a long time out, I must get him in

[Laughs]

Erm they…yes there was a different attitude, wasn’t there, you know, they didn’t tell you things, eve like that, it was

Right

Their world and you world was…different some how, not like now, it’s all…you best mates with your mum and dad, it wasn’t then, you know it was…cut off

Ok, so she was a member of the rowing actually in Barking Park or…

Yes

Ok

And the tennis club, yes, yeah

So did she row the skiffs?

Yes

Oh lovely

She used to tell me, I’ve never seen her, but she used to say ‘oh she’d erm leave work and go over the park and row the skiffs and then go and play tennis’ so she was quite active, but I would have…you know, but she didn’t give you that impression, but if she talk about things, that came out in the conversation

Did you ever see a skiff, or go on one?

Yes, I’ve seen them

Ok

Cos erm years ago, the rowing club was still there when I came here, and at night, they used to be practising skiffs, and erm yeah it was lovely to…went quite fast, so that was when I was…I don’t know when they ended…childhood seems to just go into erm a rhythm of it’s own and you don’t know when things ended and when things began

Mmh

It’s only like when you…go courting or get married and goes onto another, but childhood just drifts [Laughs]

Yeah, it kind of all merges into one

I mean some people’s childhood obviously are you know bad, but if you’ve had a reasonably good one, it was just, you know

Yeah

Childhood and you just…did your own thing, but erm yeah the park’s got a lot of…as I say you know, a lot of memories…erm…for me with the children and you know meeting my husband and then the children and then erm the grandchildren, so…

Yeah

I’ve really used the park

[Laughs]

It’s been a…

Well it’s lovely to hear

Yeah, big thing, I haven’t been in the park for ages, I must admit

Oh right ok

And I used to love the fair; I was over there every night

Oh fantastic

Ever night

Could you talk about the fair, if that’s ok?

The fair, yes erm…see my mum like the fair [Laughs] she like playing this erm bingo and erm…there a lady…cos you, you knew the fair people because they were the same ones every year

Right ok

And erm this lady, we called here the little lady, and she used to have these lights flicker up with names like Fred and Bert and Eller and if you have the ticket, you won something

Oh wow

And she was always there, we always looked the little…called her the little lady, I don’t know why, and the erm…their children always had silver cross prams, the big...silver…with all the beautiful lace covers

Mmh

And they’d have them by their stool, while they were doing the erm the XXXX or whatever and these prams with the babies asleep were always there, they were always beautiful prams, in fact I never knew how they got they transported cos they cam in caravans

Mmh yeah

And these prams were nearly as big a caravan

[Laughs]

But it was a bit like a social standing with them

Oh ok

You know who could have the…the nicest looking pram, beautiful prams, covers the babies had

So that was something you were aware of, was the competition between the…

Yes, yes

Ok

Yeah because it stood out from not poverty, but like when they first came the caravans were really, you know not so nice I mean, Holland was the man

Mmh

The erm fair man, and his caravan, you always…oh Mr Holland’s caravan, you’d walk past cos it was all lovely wood and oh beautiful and erm crow…milk things outside or water jugs, I don’t know what they were, outside, and then the other caravans, some were really you know horrible really

Mmh

But they gradually got…you saw that difference the caravans got nicer and their toilet facilities got better [Laughs]

[Laughs]

Cos they used have just one standing out and all use it and when the fair went, there was always a big yellow circle where all the toilets had stood

That was a bit unpleasant, isn’t it?

It was, and then the men played football you see on there, and there was always the risk of like injuries, a cut would get in something not nice in you, your wound

Do you know if that ever happened?

I don’t know, but it’s my mind that I was told that, so I…you know perhaps that did happen and

Mmh

It was like…erm…brought, but then they got you know better chemical toilets and that erm…so it was really lovely going to the fair, loved it, loved the lights, and there were these things called erm…the big Lizzie and the big Bertha

Oh

They don’t have those now, they were like big…erm oh they had netting all over them, so you didn’t fall out

[Laughs]

And like big show boating away and then it went right up like that and right up like that, and you had this net…thick netting so that didn’t…cos you could just…came out of your seat, I mean health and safety would never allow it now, and if you sat at the back, you literally came out of you seat, but oh we did love it [Laughs]

That sounds terrifying

I know it’s marvellous, marvellous it was so…always queues for the Lizzie and the Bertha, they were side by side

So that was the big sort of thrill seeker ride

That was the big thrill thing yes, yes

Right ok

That was the big thrill thing, yes…and there was the dodgem cars and erm there were lots of side shows, and course you had the side shows with the freaks, and when I look back and I used to stand there gulping at these poor people, but you see you did it, and you didn’t have that moral…guilt

Yeah

Now…thank goodness, it’s banned, but it was awful

What kind of things were there

Well I remember this lady, she had no arms and she played cards with her feet and did all things...XXXX you sat in this little round tent, grass, on a stall and she did all marvellous thing just with her feet

Wow

We just stood there looking, and then there was erm…I don’t know if it was a goat with two heads, and he just stood there, and you just stood there looking at him, because you’d never seen anything like, that’s what it was

Ok

It wasn’t anything out of nastiness, you just…it was something you’d never seen…and so…you gulped at it

[Laughs]

And cos unfortunately any you know, dwarves were very popular for freak shows

Right

Because there again they were something different and so there’d be you know dwarves there and erm…not very nice

Sorry I didn’t mean to upset you, or anything [Laughs]

No, no, no you know, but it’s dreadful, really when you think about…

But like you say you know

But thankful, XXXX it’s changed, goodness it changed

Well like you say you know were young and these thing were unusual, so of course you would

Well that’s right, that’s right, yeah, and people did point these things out that, that was wrong either

Mmh

It was just accepted, so they were always there, but then all of a sudden they weren’t, you know

Ok

So something went on behind the scenes to stop…that kind of thing

Was there a particular then where, it just didn’t happen anymore?

I think it seemed to yes

Ok

It just seemed…erm one year you went and there wasn’t any freaks, as we called them and erm…so yes I think it must have been banned and I didn’t know about it somehow, so erm and erm…my mum used a cutlery…a cutlery set, and saucepan set, a set of saucepans

[Laughs]

And she’d bring them home from this bingo and erm…we looked forward to seeing what she brought home

[Laughs]

And erm none of it last, it was all so cheap and nasty, you know, it all broke [Laughs] but it looked good when she brought it home

[Laughs]

And erm, so every year we went to the fair, sometime just to walk round, just the lights and the erm…and people, but we used to only have the fair once a year

Ok

Not like now when we keep having the fair

[Laughs]

And when I was at school, there was always…when we went back to school in September, there was always girls or boys missing that had run away with the fair

Really

Mmh

Was that quite common then?

Mmh, every year you’d look round, you’d go ‘oh Gloria’ ‘oh yeah, well she’s gone off with the fair’, I don’t know if they ever came back, I can’t remember

Crikey

Yeah used to go off to the fair, well you see the young fellas doing the…the rides, were always quite you know outgoing and chat the girls up and

Yeah

And then there was always the girls, who wanted to chatted up, you know and one thing lead to another I suppose

Wow

They went off with them [Laughs] but I can’t remember if ever we saw them again

[Laughs]

But no that was…always when we went back to school, there was people missing, and fellas would go off, cos they liked that kind of life, you know

Mmh

And I…they used to pay them to help them…get the stuff, put away at the end of the fair

Ok

And pay them to get things out, and I suppose it lead from there, it was a job and…you know that kind of life, free and easy, and wondering about

Quite exciting I suppose

Yes, so I think it…it appealed to certain…young people

Ok

Which it perhaps would now even

Yeah

But erm...I don’t, I mean it’s gone ridiculous now, you know you have to pay to go in, and then we had a lot of trouble with the…

Yeah

You know the later years, erm in fact erm…I was alright when my children went over there, they always went over there on their own, but when the grandchildren, they’ve never gone over there on their own because there was always…the element of…going to be trouble

Ok

So I used to take them over and they used to go on their different rides

Do you know when it stopped being free, and when you had to start paying to actually go in?

Oh that’s very recent…

Oh that’s recent

Very recent, last couple of years that is…no very recent, and I think that probably to keep away, the erm…the bad element that could just

Mmh

Might be a XXXX perhaps they won’t pay the pound to go in…but when they didn’t have to pay you know, they went in to cause trouble…rival young fellas, but you don’t need that XXXX

Yeah

You know there was never anything like that

Especially not when you’re taking children for a nice evening out

Oh that’s right, that’s right, you don’t want to see that, no, so…it all seemed, lots of things ended, when the grandchildren’s turn was to come

Ok

So they’ve missed out in a way, on some things I feel…erm…so I used to take them over early evening and erm…course then there was the carnival…erm which was marvellous, so that was big event, in fact I was talking the other night, and a friend of mine lived in Plaistow

Mmh

And she said ‘oh’ she said ‘we used to say ‘oh mum taking us to Barking’’ you know

[Laughs]

[Laughs] now, you wouldn’t pay to go come to Barking, but you know, Barking was really a you know, a town to be admired, they used to come over to see the carnival

Wow

It was a big event…come to Barking

Could you describe erm a carnival to me?

Erm yes, lovely floats, erm different erm firms…promote a float, we had erm, erm a school of dancing, not XXXX June England’s school of dancing here, on the corner, she always had a lovely float, perhaps did like a pantomime theme or, or you had a float that anybody could dressed and go in it, and walk along…and we’d have the Dagenham Girl Pipers and different bands leading it, and a big celebrity, always a big celebrity, Diana Doors…erm I seem to remember Gregory Peck coming once, but I’m not sure if that was, but we used have some big names coming and the last name that I can remember was erm…Nicholas Parsons

Oh ok

And they used to ride in an open top car, you know sit on the back and wave, and you’d wave and call out, and it was packed, erm I could see it from my window upstairs if I wanted to, but we used to always go their and you’d have to stand there for quite a while to get a good seat, not seat stand, you sit in erm on the curb waiting as well, then flags were sold and it was really nice and you’d had a carnival queen, and you’d had carnival queens from other places, erm Southend erm Billericay, every town had a carnival queen…and they’d come on their floats, and my friend was a carnival queen attendee,

Ah

she came second and erm the dresses were always on display in her shop in the town and you’d go there to see them, dresses…erm whether anyone would do that that now a days I do not know, but we used to go down there and erm…look at the dresses

Do you remember which it was?

Now I can’t think what the name of the shop

No ok

I know the shop, but, but erm I can’t…it wasn’t manhattans’ it was a dress shop, and they’d have them displayed in the window, and it was down…I can’t remember what the name of the shop was…XXXX was on the hill…no

No, never mind [Laughs]

But we used to all go do there and look at the dresses and they were different each year, whether they were modified I don’t know, but they…bit different, and then they were crowned, in the park

Ok

By this person and you’d have fireworks, erm…Saturday night, erm Gala night was Wednesday, you’d have fireworks, and then you’d fireworks the following…the last Saturday and that was a big event the fireworks, and that was over by the swings

Ok

And you’d stand for hours it seemed waiting for the councillors

[Laughs]

The mayor and the carnival queen to arrive [Laughs]

[Laughs]

And they always seemed to be late, so you’d be over for hours and it was all dark cos there’s no lights on

Yeah

And…but the kids loved the fireworks

I was going to say, because there’s so much, there would have been so much less sort of light population then, were the fireworks more prominent do you think or…?

I think because you’re young and they were different that they might have seemed brighter, but I’ve seen them in recent year from window, back window and they look just as bright

Ok

It probably made the gunpowder, I mean they’ve improved on all that haven’t they, you know

Yeah

I mean even the fireworks now are different, but they’ve always…but very primitive when I think of what they have now

Ok

But they used to have like erm…nailed on boards and the end one was erm…goodnight

Oh

It…light up as goodnight and so they a lot of like display erm…fireworks, now you see a lot of up in the air display, really pretty ones…no I don’t think they were any brighter

Ok

But it was very dark over there, ever so dark

I was going to ask you, after all this activity, cos obviously the fair and the carnival happened quite close together, didn’t they?

Yes, it was the two…was together

Yeah, I was wondering, like you was saying earlier about how there would be a yellow circle on the grass from

Oh yes

You know

XXXX [Laughs]

[Laughs] I’m thinking in terms of maintenances of the park, how long would it be for the park keepers and park wardens and you know, the other people that worked there to get it back to the way it was

Yes, I don’t know, they used to be taking the fireworks down, almost as soon as they’d finished…

Right ok

All these erm…wooden post that they had the…displays on that seemed to happen that night erm…the carnival erm…I don’t know, but erm we had a lot of park keepers at the time

Mmh

So the work went on behind the scenes and I say…the fair employed people there was always a notice up, men wanted to…erm help take the fair things down and then they were gone the next morning

Ok, so the fair would clear up after itself really

Yes the fair did itself, I don’t know erm…and then you see, my husband used to moan cos he liked playing football and cricket over there and he used to moan, what they’d done to the grass, well I must admit when we’ve had some bad summer and they’ve it up, it’s been a disgrace when they’ve left

Ok

And erm and it’s taken, but it does come back to life, but erm I suppose perhaps its cos I’m older and the fair doesn’t appeal to me, that I do sometimes…wonder why we have

[Laughs]

Really because of the price that they charge erm because the rides are so huge, so little children, possible still got little children’s

Yeah

Roundabouts…[phone rings] excuse me

That’s ok

It was more for um the family before

Right

And for the damage that is done I do wonder…5-9-4-1-1-7-2 oh cold call I hate them

[Laughs]

There’s always one this time of day, Hi

Was it a recording or was it…?

Yes, I usually swear, but as you’re here I didn’t

Feel free [Laughs]

I know she can’t hear me, but it makes me feel better [Laughs] cos sometimes I’m doing something, you know and I always answer the phone…you know, I get so cross [Laughs]

[Laughs] I’m with you on that one, so if you want to swear, you go ahead

XXXX

They can’t even be bothered to ring in person, can they, it’s just a recording?

No, that’s right, that’s right, it’s awful, yeah it’s awful…erm yes so yes sometimes that green over there is in a pretty bad state

Ok and you mentioned then there were lots of park keepers in those days

Mmh

How many do you think there were?

Oh I don’t know it just seemed to be…there were always…like now you can’t find anybody if anything goes…my grandson was mugged coming from the boats one night

Oh crikey

I mean there was no one over there for him to run to, like lucky he run here

Yeah

And erm, oh nearly died and erm, but you know years ago there was always a park keeper that you could go and finds if there was any…there wasn’t any trouble like that, but anything you need a park keeper for, they always seemed to be…we had one on a bike, he was really, really strict, I mean when his whistle went you cleared that park, XXXX the gates were shut, which they should be shut now, all against all this with the gates left open all night, I mean it’s a haven for drunks and whatever

Is it, it’s a shame

It’s not right…and erm they were very strict and you, you know can’t misbehave cos they’d see you so I don’t know how many there was over there, but you couldn’t do anything out of hand

And you said they used to be on their bikes, so they would cycle round the park?

Well there was one on his bike yes

Ok

Yeah, he was the strictest one, he used to have his bike, I suppose they had to have a bike a night to make sure you were all out, it shuts at dusk and his whistle would go and erm oh you know [Laughs]

[Laughs]

Out of those gates you went, but cos some I suppose didn’t, and he’d round them all up and they were out

Ok

You know, single handed he’d…[Laughs]

Wow he sounds like quite an impressive fella [Laughs]

Yes he was, he had a nickname but I won’t tell you his nickname cos…not nice [Laughs]

If it’s the person somebody else has told me about I think I might already know XXXX

Oh right, he had a broken nose

Mmh, Mr bent nose I think he was called [Laughs]

Yeah oh bent nose is coming oh you flew yes

[Laughs] that amazing that you knew him as well

Yes, yeah [Laughs]

That’s, that’s incredible

Well you see they also stayed, cos people in jobs in those days, stayed in the job, like now you probably have people come and go, so you knew these people, they were, they were there, I suppose until they retired or died

Yeah, that’s wonderful

Yeah, oh yes, it is…you know it’s a different, different, different way of life

Did they have a uniform the park keepers?

Yes navy blue, I think like trousers and a jacket, and…a peat flap hat with a peak [Laughs], god XXXX had a badge a on it, and a big whistle on a chain

[Laughs]

And you could hear this whistle all over the park

What over kind of things would he tell you off for?

Erm…erm…in the swimming pool you got told off for jumping in, like dive bombing

Right

And screaming, you could scream in there, erm in the park erm well I…anybody just being silly I suppose

Ok

But you didn’t get many…well when you think back you didn’t get many, I mean their whistle be blowing all the time now

[Laughs]

Over there, dogs were on leads…I mean dogs should run about, I’m not saying they shouldn’t but dogs were on leads, you couldn’t take…and you couldn’t walk on the grass

Ah

You couldn’t walk on the grass, please keep off the grass, a little metal sign and nobody ever went on the grass, not the big grass, the flower bed grass

Ok

But now they walk wherever

Do you remember any of the gardeners in the park, sort of…

No there was this nursery…erm and we used to go in there and you could in there and look at what they were growing, no, I didn’t know anybody’s names there, and oh course the bowling was very popular, my father in law erm, he didn’t bowl but he used to sit on the seat everyday in the bowls…you always knew where to find erm Pat Carey, as he’d be sitting in the bowling green

[Laughs]

Every day with his…cronies

Lovely

And erm, and then there was a big chess set, that you had to move…by hand, but children weren’t allowed in there, it was like the quiet place, and that was behind the bowling green…on a big erm concrete chess board…and you’d creep past there cos you’d…mustn’t be seen going near there

Were you…really not allowed near the place or…

No, you wasn’t, no you see

Oh

And you knew that you wasn’t allowed near there

Ok

So you used to creep past, now they’d be in there throwing them all over the place [Laughs]

Why do you think children weren’t allowed?

I don’t know, perhaps it’s because…it interfered with the concentration of older people

Ok

I don’t think they were allowed in the bowling green, no they weren’t…couldn’t go in the bowling green...children

Ok

For the same thing I think, it was an adult section and adults didn’t want the children in there, which I’m all in favour of

[Laughs] it’s nice to have your own space, isn’t it?

That’s right…it’s like children in pubs, I’m dead against children in pubs

Mmh

I know it’s nice to…but there’s over things to do then take children in pubs

Yeah, I think that’s fair enough

For the sake of the other people as well, they just let them run…run round and round

Yeah

We took our children to pubs, but we sat in the gardens, that’s alright, but now they go in the…go in

Do they actually allow them in the bars now?

Oh yeah, they’re in there, having they’re meals

Crikey

In weatherspoons up there

Yeah weatherspoons is quite child friendly, I think isn’t it?

It’s only recently, it wasn’t at first

Oh

And I just think, they thought oh we’ll move them, we’ll do that, but personally I think it’s a bad move

[Laughs]

But that’s only my personal opinion

Well someone who doesn’t have children, it’s not really a factor I have to think about [Laughs] XXXX going out, so

No it’s…there place that grown-ups enjoy and there’s obviously place that children enjoy, and they’re not necessary the same place

Of course

I don’t think

Yeah, I would agree that, that’s fair enough [Laughs]

[Laughs] so erm yeah

Were there any other sections of the park that were sort of more for one of the other, ether for adults or for children

Mmh…erm we never used to go the other side of the lake

Ok

I don’t know why, but we never used to go the other side of the lake…and erm…no, no I don’t think there was anywhere that children couldn’t go…no it was only round by the bowling and…and that chess place, and there were two big shelters in the park and that was a hive of meeting up with boys and girls

What do you mean shelter?

Well one was erm…well it all had roofs and like one had a bench right across the middle and sides and you used to sit and just chat, it was a place to sit and chat, and the other one by the pavilion was the bigger one, quite a big shed and they were wooden sits like benches, but all built in and that had a roof, and it was just a place where you all meet up..

Ok

Cos there wasn’t many other places to meet, there was seats, you know, in, in the gardens erm but these were, you could get more of you in there and…so it was like a meeting up place

Ok

I think they used to crave their names there, very naughty

[Laughs] ah initials or something, ah it’s lovely

But yeah, used to do that, in these two shed, one was by the pavilion and the other one was over by the lido

Ok

And then there was paddling pool…outside of the lido erm…and that was a nice paddling pool and erm mine have lots of days, it wasn’t there when I was small, but it was there when my children were there and I’d their pack lunch and they’d go this paddling pool and then I started taking my grandchildren but unfortunately we had silly men with trainer on, who thought it was highly enjoyable to be in the paddling pool

Oh

Splashing everybody

Crikey

And then that, that just, that just stopped

So what happened to that paddling pool was it just filled in or…?

No it’s…erm as far as I know, and I haven’t been over there for a long time, it was just…just a concrete, empty

Ok

And people used to play football in it, you know kick a ball, well it’s there, might as well been used for something, but erm, it was a nice paddling pool

I was told that there was a section of the lake that was sort of cornered, just for children’s boats…

Yes, oh yes up the other end

Ok

They were those erm, you have to paddle erm…they were called paddle boats and you had to wined these to make the paddles go round

Right ok

So erm, I think two…four, you could get four in and two and two paddled and then if you wanted to go left, you just paddled with the left and right like that

[Laughs]

Erm yes paddle boats, and also on a Sunday, they had these erm…remote controlled boats

Ah

And...that was…men, it men really doing and erm that was very Sunday and erm sailing boats, and that was up at the other end and that cornered off and that all of a sudden went, and that have been a little club for people

What kind of year was that? Do you remember how old you were…or the decade?

Erm…erm oh well into my marriage, oh no the children are twenty and twenty one it was in their time, just before them

Right ok so we’re talking maybe the eighties or something

Twenty…yeah, yeah, mmh and that was Sunday morning and you could hear from hear, if the wind was travelling, right, you could hear like the, the humming noise of them and you’d go ‘oh that the men over there with their boats’

[Laughs] it quite funny to think that you were sat quite a distance away and yet you could still hear…

Yes and you could this noise yeah, you could hear the fair as well from here, well you still can, if the wind’s in the right direction, it’s so…erm clear that you can hear conversation

Wow

It unbi- it don’t XXXX it must be in like a little bay or something and you can hear conversations, people talking at the fair, that’s right over there

That’s incredible

Yeah it is, and that’s always been like that, yeah

You could use it for a bit of spying

XXXX and listen, but you could…you can hear it; you can definitely hear the music

Yeah

But as I…that’s altered, they, they shut that half past ten, I think now or ten o’clock

Right

It didn’t, it used to go on ‘til about midnight

Oh really, did it, ok

Mmh, always later, much later then what it shuts now…but probably cos the noise has got…noisier if you know what I mean, you know its erm

Mmh

Perhaps those little XXXX what they didn’t have…the little roundabouts, they used a little bell on, I don’t think they had music the children’s little roundabouts

Mmh

They had like a little XXXX always like going the bus, there was a bus, only made of wood, and it was upstairs for the bus, we went up the stairs, when they were brave

[Laughs]

And sat at the top of this bus, and then there’d be a little aeroplane that you sat in

Ah

And a horse, always a horse, and like the horses that go up and down, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen like the real carousel, we used to have those, but they’ve not been for years

Oh that’s a shame

Mmh, I suppose they weren’t exciting enough

But…kind of like iconic of a certain period of time, aren’t they?

Yes, yes and the music was that all punched out in card

Oh really

And XXXX he’d put it on a round XXXX and then the music would come out on that now, I don’t know what they use for music now, as I say I haven’t been over there for ages

[Laughs]

No one will walk over there and I don’t like walking over there…I won’t mind walking over by myself, but they might think I’m a bit weird

[Laughs] I’m sure they wouldn’t

And I’m not paying a pound [Laughs]

[Laughs] That’s fair enough isn’t it?

Yeah, so I haven’t been over the fair, solely cos no one will come over there with me [Laughs] for years

Oh what a shame

Yeah it is, well perhaps it’s not, perhaps I wouldn’t like it

Mmh yeah, I mean…

Perhaps I wouldn’t like

Something’s are probably different, but…

Yeah I probably wouldn’t like it

Still [Laughs] you should probably go next time maybe

Well we’ll see, we’ll see [Laughs]

I was just going to ask you, you mentioned earlier about the nurseries and you actually…

Yes

Went into the nurseries…

Yes you could go in there erm, don’t remember if you could buy anything in there, but I’ve definitely been there and then they used to have erm…rabbits in there, like show rabbits and one year the dogs from the fair, killed them all

No

Got in there, killed them all

How did they get in?

Don’t know, broke in I suppose…killed all the rabbits

That’s really sad

It was really sad

How many do you think there were in there?

Oh there were quite a lot, you could…you know look at them, they were all in cages, all along, I’d say ten or...might of been ten, but that, that…I don’t know why they had the rabbits in there…perhaps they let people you know…association show them

Mmh

Or something in there, but they was always in there, in this nursery.

So, I’ve spoken to over people, and said that the nurseries weren’t really open to the public

Well perhaps there weren’t, perhaps for some reason I went in there…but I remember going in there…like a glasshouse it was erm…I remember going in there and I definitely went in there when the rabbits were there

Yeah

Cos went in…to look at the rabbits and as I say, one…they all went, horrible

What a shame

Mmh and cos we’ve always had the ducks, and there were the swan called Henry, got a photo of him

Have you?

He broke a man’s arm, cos the boat got near him, he was viscous, Henry, ruled that park, he did Henry [Laughs]

That’s a name I’ve heard before, as well

Have you heard Henry before?

Yes

Yes, I’ve got a photo of Henry

Have you really? Oh I’d loved to it, if that’s ok?

Yes, yeah I’ve got them there, I put them there, and there you see I have got a Cine Film that I leant Alec erm…it was put on a video, it was Cine Film and my brother put it on a video for me, and it’s the phoenix’s going round the lake, and it got the train…

Wow

And it’s got my with the skipping rope and all the deck chairs and it’s got erm…well it’s got bits and pieces of…it’s a bit fragmented, cos in those days Cine…I suppose Cine camera were expensive so you didn’t use a lot of film, so my dad has take you know bits of things, but also on there, is when I was young and my brothers were young and erm anyway I leant it to Alec and I’ve been in touch since I came to this meeting

Right

Because at this thing, and he says ‘that he gave it back to me’ well I’m sure he didn’t give it back to me erm and it’s a shame erm but the brother that did it, the younger brother, he actually seriously ill in hospital

Oh

At the moment, well I always answer the phone anyway, but very, very ill down in Bristol and erm I was going to ring him up, last week to ask him, if he’s got a copy of it and that’s when he was taken ill, so I don’t think I’m going to get that…off of him, if anybody ever wanted to see it, cos it was quite interesting

Yeah, it sounds amazing, it sound like exactly the kind of thing

Mmh yeah it was, yeah

If you ever do get a copy, please do get in touch

I know, I mean hopefully he will recover, but I don’t know, erm and he will, I’m sure he would have a copy himself

Right ok

And he would give it to me, but I’m sure Alec never gave it back to me

Right

Erm, but it’s his word against mine and perhaps he did and I’ve mislaid it, but I’m not saying that I’m erm above mislaying things, but I feel certain that I would have known if he’d given it back

Well it sounds like quite a…you know…quite a wonderful artefact, it’s kind of something that

Yes, it’s lovely, yeah it’s really

Wow

It is…yeah…it is a good little film, but erm hopeful, fingers crossed my brother recovers and erm…I will then get him to

Ah ok

Get his one out, or make me another one, but as I say it was a Cine Film and he put on a video

That’s very clever isn’t it [Laughs]

Oh I…how to do that, but he did that…yeah so erm

Have you still got the Cine Film, or is that what you gave to Alec?

No, that’s…no he had the Cine Film

Right ok, ah

My brother and he put it on the video and sent me the video

Right ok

Cos he lives in Bristol, erm and erm and then I gave it to Alec, not until about last year, funny enough, I kept telling…I told him about ‘oh, I’d to see that’ and then I gave to him and now I’ve rung him up or…no my son called on his house and he said he’s given it back to me, but I don’t know where it is

Oh, it’s a shame

But, one of those things

I hope you manage to find it

Yes, I…well that’s what prompted me, the meeting, although I did want it back, cos as I say, there’s my other brother on there, that unfortunately was killed, erm so it’s you know, memories, but

Yeah

One of those things, but erm…so that’s the bandstand with the Dagenham Girl Pipers, playing

Oh wow

On there

That’s incredible

There’s a magnifying glass, there if you wanted to see it

Thank you

I think this is…this is the carnival queen being crowned in this one

Aren’t they incredible?

I think that’s the carnival queen being crowned in that one

Do you remember what year this was?

No, and it’s not on the back

It kind of looks like the sixties from these ladies hairstyles, doesn’t it?

Yes, yes, yeah

Wow

And that’s me in the middle with my mum sitting in the erm…gardens there and my older brother

Men really knew how to dress in those days, didn’t they? I loved that everyone looked so smart?

Has he got his uniform on?

I’m not sure

He was in the RAF

I think he’s wearing just sort of a suit and jacket

No, no he’s got ordinary…yeah

Yeah

And that’s the phoenix, but it’s not a good picture, because you can’t see that it’s the phoenix really

Oh it’s a wonderful picture

But in the Cine Film, it is you know, you can see the phoenix

You can just about see the phoenix on the erm life ring there

Yes, yes but like to see it all, it was, it was lovely

These are fantastic

And that’s in the pool, I’m in the middle

Wow…I was going to ask actually, if you had one of the sort of knitted swimming costumes, but obviously not [Laughs]

Not there, I did have a knitted one, but not there, that’s Henry

Ah there the culprit [Laughs]

There’s the culprit…and that’s the grandson with my son pushing him, on the little swings

Ah look at him…those look like Clark shoes

Probably are

[Laughs]

And that was by the lake…and that’s the little train, but the…the thirty p that is, that’s so it’s…

Ah

Well I mean she was about three there and she’s twenty this year…so it’s a good seventeen years ago

They’re wonderful

But erm

I was going to ask is it ok if I borrowed these and scanned and returned them?

Oh of course, yes I’ll put them in an envelope for you

Cos I can scan them in the office as well

Actually I had a big…I wanted to downsize cos I’ve always been one to have loads of clutter or like things around me, and I thought oh when I die, you know, they’ve got all this to clear out, like it’s a big house to clear and there’s the cellar full of things

[Laughs]

And I thought, they’ll just chuck them all on a skip, so I just took it into me mind one day to go through all the photos and I tore loads of photos up

Ah what a shame

But I just had to do it, because I want to condense them into one box

Of course, of course

And now…I felt nobody wants to know, you know

[Laughs]

The park, what was that you know…now this comes out the blue

Well it’s typically isn’t? It’s always going to be the way, XXXX?

Yeah

I should have started the project a couple of years ago [Laughs]

Yeah, so I probably have got some more somewhere, but they…they were the only that I could put my hand to; let me give you and envelope

Fabulous, if you’d like a digital copy of these to pass onto your children or whatever, please do let me know and I can…can do a couple…no…[Laughs] I find it so odd, that people aren’t interested in things like that [Laughs]

You don’t know my children [Laughs] you don’t know my children [Laughs], they don’t treasure any of my treasure, I tell you

Ah

I’ll know where all my treasures will go, on a skip

What a shame

Yeah, but that’s how it goes, I don’t erm, I don’t…put them in one of these

Oh sorry

There we are…

XXXX all your other pictures

No XXXX I thought I had an ordinary envelope in there but erm

Thank you very much

As I as I say, if I…or I could ask my friends if you wanted erm

Oh please do

Erm, because one of my friends has seen a Cine Film of the pageant

Wow

Mmh I don’t know anything about the pageant

That was 1931

’31 yes

Yes

Erm we were talking about it the other night and I said about you were coming and erm, she said ‘oh Mr…’ you know, I don’t know Mr Bell is, I suppose I could ask her, she should think he’s dead, I should think he was an elderly person

Right

She’s my age, erm she said ‘oh Mr Bell, had a Cine Film’ she said ‘I’ve seen it, oh the pageant’

Wow, that incredible

Mmh

I did manage to interview a lady the other week, who actually was in the pageant

Oh right, ah

She was in the country life scene and her husband was in the Saxon warrior scene

Oh lovely, yeah I knew nothing of the pageant

Yeah, I suppose it’s after your time really

Yes I was born ’38 and that ’31 so no, no, no one ever told me about the pageant either

Oh what a shame

So it wasn’t a thing that the family seemed to know, no didn’t anything about the pageant

Well if you’re interested they’ve got some lovely photos of it…

Oh right

Down at the erm local studies and archives

Oh right

Down at Valance House

Oh yes, I haven’t been to Valance House since it’s been done

Oh you really should go, it’s lovely down there

Yes, I should, I know

[Laughs]

My friends have and they keep saying ‘you must go, you must go’ and I just haven’t got round to it

Yeah

Erm…yes I could ask her, but she definitely said she’d seen it

Ah wow

And she quoted Mr Bell, but I don’t know who Mr Bell is

Well I’ll see if I can track it down

Perhaps it was a neighbour, I should imagine it was neighbour of hers’ but I wouldn’t know, and I didn’t take it up…we were talking about things

Mmh

And erm…that and I didn’t erm go into it anymore

Erm my colleague Angela told me something, erm a story that came up in your group at the session

Mmh

Erm she said something about a chap dressing up as cowboy and riding

Oh yes

Could you tell me about that?

Les the window cleaner, he lived in Wilmington Gardens, and erm he used to dress up in cowboy outfit, spurs and hat, and he had a horse, lovely horse, and he used to ride it in Barking Park

[Laughs]

I think eventually he got banned, I don’t know where he kept the horse, cos he just lived in a ordinary house in Wilmington Gardens, and he was quite a little fella, Les, he liked betting, always betting, probably that why he had a horse

[Laughs]

Yes, and he’d be in this, and there was photo of him somewhere, I can’t remember where, not that I had, but I seem to remember, it might of been in the local paper

Right ok

I reckon it was in the local paper, the advertiser, that was…and I think there was a picture of him in there

Right

And I think once that appeared…they were alerted that he was over there on a horse

[Laughs]

And I don’t think he did it anymore

Do you know he did it?

No, no, no, he was my window cleaner, very chatty little man, lived with his brother, both very small and erm, no it was a complete surprise when we found out

[Laughs]

I don’t know where he stayed with the horse

So how old would you have been when he started doing that?

When he started doing oh Les…oh I suppose I was about twenty-five

Right ok

Perhaps…my husband used to chat him up about betting, not that my husband betted, but…he knew of betting and he’d

Yeah

He’d say ‘look what I won today’ and he get this great big wad of notes out, but then you know, he didn’t win and never told when he didn’t win, but he was corr he said ‘I’ve just seen Les, he’s got a great big roll of notes what he’s just won’ I said ‘I reckon he just says all that’

[Laughs]

And erm and then, he was over there on this horse, lovely horse, a brown and white, like a XXXX horse

What did you think when you saw him?

Well…[Laughs] I don’t cos Les…one off when you met him, so…no but it was a complete surprise that [Laughs] in fact we had a good laugh about it really, you know, that he, he did that

I can imagine the park keepers weren’t best amused

No, no I bet they weren’t no, no, and I think it was once, there was a picture of him in the paper, I think that’s when he got told…I think soon after that he died, nothing to do with that

Oh

He was, you know, he just died mmh

What a lovely story though

Yes, Les, I don’t know what his other name was, I can see him now

[Laughs]

Dark hair, yes sitting on this, with his hat, everything [Laughs]

I can imagine the children, must have been all over him

Yes, it was out of, out of character really, but then you see nothing surprises, this day and age

No [Laughs]

[Laughs] two things

Yeah

Yeah so that was Les, yes, yes I did bring that one up

It’s such a wonderful story, when Angela told me afterwards; I was like I have to get on tape [Laughs]

I know and Bobby Moore, about Bobby Moore playing

Oh no, please tell

Ah right, yes my erm husband and all his mates, they were just football, cricket mad, they spent, he could tell you more about the park, unfortunately he’s not with us anymore, but erm, he was over the park, day and night, oh until it was…like got thrown out and erm playing football and cricket in the summer and Bobby Moore was younger then this group, and erm but hung about with them, cos his dad was erm, ticket collector at the station, Mr Buckle

Oh right

And erm, so he used to come to visit his cousin Peter and they’d go over the park, and he was a bit tubby, and so they didn’t know really what to do with him, so they used to make him go in goal

[Laughs]

Little did they know, he was going to be captain of England at the time

So he cut his teeth, with playing with them then?

Yes, he was over there in goal, cos he was a bit tubby, and erm they’d play over there and XXXX they call him and he’d go home…went back with his cousin I suppose, they lived in Park Avenue, and erm yeah so, yeah he was over there

Isn’t that lovely

Yeah, I don’t think that was ever put in his autobiography, funnily enough

Was it not?

No and I think

Oh that’s a shame

My husband and his mates were a bit disappointed because…he was over there a lot with them, you know, but I don’t think was ever...I remember him saying ‘oh he’s never mentioned Barking Park’

Oh that’s a shame isn’t it?

Yeah it is, cos it was yeah

Especially if like you say, if that was kind of XXXX playing with the older boys

That’s right, that’s right yeah

So how old would your husband been at that time?

Erm…erm…ten years older then me and it was before…I actually went out with him, but just near the…end that…so I went out with him…sixteen, so he’d be about twenty-four, twenty-five

Right, ok

Mmh, his brother went on to be a professional footballer as well

Oh did he?

Mmh, so erm…football in the family

That’s where all the professional practiced, then over there [Laughs]

Yes, all the, all the practice over Barking Park paid off [Laughs] and then I say cricket in the summer, and erm…my erm sons’ always played football over there every minute he could and cricket, whenever he could

Yeah

But erm there again, it all change, it seemed to change from then, from then the children didn’t…although they play, he does play football, the grandson somewhere

Yeah

But not over there

Oh that’s a shame

Mmh [Laughs]

It seems like this nice little family tradition going [Laughs]

Yes, yes, yeah well the tradition was that erm, he came back and did the boats so he is…

Yeah

You know, it’s funny how…the world goes round

Yeah

And erm…yes so Barking Park has been a big, big thing for all our family really

It’s amazing

Mmh

I was going to say, because we looked at those photos of the bandstand a second ago

Mmh

Did you ever used to go to see band playing over at the bandstand

Erm yes, that used to be on a…like when this Sunday afternoon, we used to go over there in our best…clothes with mum and dad and erm we’d stand there and there’d be bands playing, yeah the erm…bandstand and I can remember them dancing round there as well, men and women, you know dancing

Mmh

Whatever…waltzes or whatever erm, so I don’t know what that was about, being much younger I wasn’t interested in what…people…older people were doing

[Laughs]

Erm but I seem to remember that

I’ve heard they actually laid erm a dance floor almost

Oh well that, yes

Around the outside

I can see them going round it yes

Yeah

Yes, yeah

A little bit of a clarification for you, just there [Laughs]

Yeah, yeah, yes

So you know you’re not just imagining it [Laughs]

I wasn’t imagining it no, no I wish I had a better memory, my husband’s memory was fantastic, what he couldn’t tell you about the park, would be worth knowing, but I…my memory alright

I think its amazing [Laughs] you’ve done well

But erm, I wish sometimes I…could remember things more…yes it comes back to you, different things yeah

Yeah and how have you found the experience of talking about it, have you found that’s brought things forward or…in your memory?

Erm…makes you remember things perhaps that…you forgotten a bit, erm…well it’s memories of your youth and that and as I say I was talking to my friends…last Monday and they were putting their bit in you know and saying ‘oh so and so and so, you know

Yeah

But all very similar…all very similar memories, nothing…particular different

Ok

But I possible used the park more than they did, erm as a girl and as a grandma as well

Right

But erm, their children went over the park a lot…but you just let them go and you different really…know what they would do, didn’t…

[Laughs]

Well you knew…they were playing cricket or football or something

Yeah

But it was never a worry that erm they were over there…but as I say when my grandson got mugged, I was very cross

Ah I can imagine

But here he is working on the boats and some…lout nicks his phone off of him

[Tuts] that’s terrible

Horrible…but erm…and Alec was very upset at the time, he only walked from the boats to the…you know, cos…to go back to Upminster…but well that’s this day and age unfortunately…nut you feel guilty that it’s happened in Barking, you know

Yeah

I feel ever so guilty when things happen…things can happen in Upminster, but I always feel guilty when it’s happened in Barking

Is it because you feel attached to the area cos you’re local?

Yeas, and, and it’s altered so much that…now I feel erm disappointed

Yeah

That these things happen

Disappointed in the change in the area, you mean?

Yes, yeah very disappointed

Oh that’s a shame

But it wouldn’t make me move

[Laughs] I wouldn’t leave this house, its beautiful [Laughs]

[Laughs] no I just…no there’s nowhere…I mean Upminster’s very pleasant but I wouldn’t want to live there

Yeah

There’s nowhere that I’ve been to that I’d say I’d like to live there, but I would like to live Barking as it was

Of course [Laughs]

[Laughs]

If we had a time machine

In a ideal world, but it’s not a ideal world, so…what they do out there…is their business, if I shut that front room…front door, and I’m in here…[Laughs]

Yeah

Do what they like [Laughs]

[Laughs]

As long it doesn’t interfere with me, but I don’t like hearing about things

Yeah of course

But erm, no not much you can do about it

No unfortunately not

I do complain about things

[Laughs] you’re allowed to though, aren’t you?

Do complain…yeah, I mean it’s my neighbourhood, I’m going to keep it…try and keep it as…nice as I can

Of course…that’s lovely

But erm…yeah, yeah things change. The park will change as well

Of course, of course

The park will change…but

That’s why it’s important to record the memories now isn’t it?

Yes I know, I know, and…but that was my park and, I’m not really…very interested in what it is now

Ah that’s a shame

I suppose…I would walk over there erm…but there’s no need to…

You’ll have to come to the fair with us next year [Laughs]

XXXX run away with the fair [Laughs]

[Laughs] It’s never too late

No never too late, no, no I wouldn’t go and pay, not the pound, worry me

Yeah

It’s just not the same, like just to walk in there, walk through it and walk out

Yes of course

I was going to do it, but erm…no, no I won’t be going to the fair [Laughs]

Ah, it’s a shame [Laughs]

That’s erm detached for me now the fair, and the park…but, I’d like to see the changes through there

Yeah

There’d be good changes

Well when they have the launch down there, you’ll have to come down

Oh yes, that’d be very nice

Cos I think their planning on inviting all the participants in the oral history project

Oh right yes, oh lovely

So you’ll get a invite to that

Yeah, yeah

Have a place of honour

I mean when I go by on the bus, I always look in the park, you know…and only think of nice things

Yeah

Erm…in there, but I know…you know, not so nice things go on

Of course

So I don’t want to be part of that

[Laughs] I think that’s fair…

My son used…he runs in the park every morning…still and erm you know…he doesn’t like the changes [Laughs]

[Laughs]

He’s getting old, I tell him, he’s getting old

[Laughs]

That’s when you know, when you’re getting old, when you don’t like changes

Oh is it, ok? I’ve got that to look forward to, haven’t I?

Well that’s right, well I never thought I’d say ‘oh in my day…’

[Laughs]

I used to hate it when my mum and dad, and his mum and dad used to get together

Yeah

‘Oh well so and so’, and I said we’ll never get like that

No

But I am beginning to say [Laughs]

[Laughs]

Well it was better in my day [Laughs] but never mind, better in so things…and

Yeah

Not in others

Course

But erm…life goes on [Laughs]

That wonderful, thank you very much for sharing your memories with me…

Oh alright

I really appreciate it, is there anything you’d like to add or

Erm

Shall I stop the tape?

No, no I think that’s about it

Ok

I’m done [Laughs]

[Laughs]

And my rabbit’s still out

Oh no [Laughs]

[Laughs]

He’s probably starved to death up there isn’t he? [Laughs]

[Laughs] Oh no he’s got bits up there

Oh ok

But he’ll erm; he’ll want to come back

Ok, I’ll just if I can figure out how to stop this

Oh

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Margaret Carey

Project: Barking Park Oral History Project

Date: 15^th September 2011

Language: English

Venue: 6 Cecil Avenue, Barking, IG11 9TA

Name of interviewer: Claire Days

Length of interview: 100 minutes

Transcribed by: Claire Days

Archive Ref: 2011_esch_BaPa_08

2011_esch_BaPa_09

2011_esch_BaPa_09

Okay, first of all can I ask you spell your name for us just so we can get it right?

Yeah, it’s Val V-A-L and the surname is Shaw S-H-A-W

And can I ask you your date of birth?

Six-six-fifty two (06/06/1952)

And where were you born?

Uh, East End Maternity Hospital in Poplar

Okay, so did you grow up in Poplar?

Um we moved to, I think I was six months old when mum and dad moved to Dagenham then when I was ten, after they’d had my sister and I was ten, we moved to Barking. So I’ve always, apart from a little while when my husband and I met and we went to we had to move out of the area to find somewhere to live, I’ve always been Barking and Dagenham.

Okay, so did you go to school in the area?

Yes, I went to Five Elms, Manor and Park Modern which is now Barking Abbey but it was Park Modern when I was there

And what was school like?

I didn’t like it until the very last year, I loved the last year but now I regret not liking it more because they’re such, you don’t have any worries, they’re such good years but of course when you’re that age you don’t appreciate it, you know. I remember getting the cane once when it wasn’t my fault because I was accused of chat chat chat chat chat and it wasn’t me, I mean I know I can chat but that time it wasn’t me and I got the cane. Um ur oh and I’ve had the chalkboard rubber, not necessarily thrown at me but aimed in my direction but I left at fifteen I didn’t stay on or anything.

Okay you said you liked the last year, was it about that last year your particularly enjoyed?

I suppose you didn’t get as much homework but it wasn’t just that it was sort of just that was it, that was the last year. I mean for a couple of years I was, it’s not really nerves but I would be a nervy type and try to go to school and get nervous and come home but the last year I seemed to, that seemed to all disappear so you know I regret now not doing more when I was there.

Was it a bit of a ‘the end is in sight’ type of thing?

That’s right yeah [laughs]

Oh I was a prefect when I was at school; I enjoyed that because I could throw people out. When they’re hiding in a cloakroom in the winter and we used to have to go around and say “no you’ve got to go out in the playground” and that [laughs] horrible

So what did you do when you finished school?

I went to work for Kitsons Insulations Company on the bridge between Barking and East Ham, which, do you know where the Tesco’s is now? Its right opposite whatever that is now, it used to be a burger bar I don’t know if it still is but the building right opposite that used to be Kitsons and I worked there for four years nearly five years then I left. Where did I go after that? I think I did some temporary work; I worked at the post office one Christmas because I was out of work so I worked there. That was quite good because I went as a junior and I left and I could do audio typing and that so that was quite good. Then I worked for a couple of little firms in Layton, because we moved to Leytonstone for a bedsit so that was up that area. I got a job in the docks which I enjoyed, it was shipping accidents, I enjoyed that but the docks were starting to shut down so it didn’t last very long so otherwise I wish now I had gone in earlier. I went to Barclaycard, stuck it for a year but I didn’t like the people. And then that’s when I went to my last job which was a solicitors and I was there for twenty, about twenty two years and then I was made redundant.

Okay, and what did your parents do for work?

My Father was a policeman in the docks, PLA, police, he was a Redcap Police in the army and then when he came out, I think he done various jobs but then went in the PLA Police. My mum was, she worked at various places, one of them was, I can’t remember the name of it, it was in Lincoln’s Inn, it was like legal stationary things like that but then once she had myself and my sister she stayed at home for a while and then she went back when I was a bit older to look after my sister, she went back for Social Security which was then called the National Assistance Board in, oh where was it? It was somewhere in Barking I can’t remember now, and then she went to the Valuation Office and she also worked at the Town Hall and Barking Hospital, x-ray department when it was there, when it was the old hospital.

She did quite a lot then?

Yes she did quite a bit [laugh].

Your first job was there anything you particularly liked or disliked about being there?

I didn’t like the, because I was in the typing pool, I didn’t have any problems with that but we had a woman above us and although she was married she was known as Miss Smith and she was a bit of a dragon, and I met my husband because he worked there and she tried to split us up because it was the old school of it wasn’t right for office people to go out with factory people .

Ah.

You know it was class sort of thing so that’s what I didn’t like about it. I enjoyed things like, I would do various, I don’t suppose you would know what they are, there's a Getstetner which is like a printing machine and what they use to call a Bander which was a similar sort of printing machine . Switchboard, I would do a lot of audio typing and then when they needed me I would go and help out on the switchboard if I wasn’t busy and things like that. I enjoyed the switchboard side of it as well.

When you say she was trying to split up you and your husband what was she particularly doing, just trying...

She just, what she would say was, because he finished a little bit before me so he would wait outside for me after work and we would walk up the road together, and that and she would say she didn’t want him waiting there it’s not right that he was seen waiting for me, because office people don’t go with factory people. You know all this that and the other and I ended up throwing in my notice because I couldn’t, everybody is equal no matter what job you do. I didn’t go along that line. So I handed my notice in and then they tried to give me a rise to stay but it was something like, at the time about ten shillings a week, when you broke it down and I thought I’m not staying for that, I could earn, and I was paid a pittance as w ell, it was, I don’t know whether it was just because it was that job or they seemed to keep me being as I was a junior. I think when I left there I was on seven pounds something, I mean bearing in mind this was in the, when did I go there? Sixty seven, about seventy one, I was on about seven pound a week, seven fifty a week. I don’t know, I suppose it was comparable but it weren’t brilliant because I left there and, where did I go after that? Whatever job I went into after that my wages sort of doubled you know so... I didn’t know where I was then with all that money [laugh].

So your husband was a factory worker?

Yes, he done various things, he was in the insulation, he went into, he done courier, motorbike courier, he worked in the docks for a little while as cleaning containers and then he went, his last job, because he became disabled but the last job before that was with a canopy, in Canning Town, XXXX St, he was, he use to work in the factory but also he would go out delivering as well and maybe putting up on site as well. Like that sort of thing.

Oh okay.

But then he became disabled so he obviously had to stop that sort of thing.

And did you have any children?

No. no he had been married before so he had children but we didn’t but that’s, I mean it’s not a taboo subject you know.

Okay. So if we move onto the park. So what are your first memories of barking Park?

I should imagine my Mum and Dad taking me over there, I’m trying to think, I can remember going on the train, this must be, I think we came from Dagenham so it must have been before I was ten because we came on the bus. And I would go on the train and we went on rowing boats, I can remember the paddle steamer, I can’t remember if I went on it but I can remember it. I remember rowing, because well Dad was rowing you know. We went in the paddling pool they had there then. I did go in the, I don’t swim, but I would go in the swimming pool like with friends or whatever, not in the pool but in grounds of it you know, so I remember that. I remember it packed when it was hot, sunny and that and lots of people there and the ice-cream hatch where you use to buy soft ice-cream cones and that. What else do I remember?

You were saying the ice-cream hatch was that in the lido grounds?

Yes I think, I think you had the turn, I think you went in and there was a hatch and a turnstile, but you didn’t have to go in, there was like I think on that side there was like a hatch where they pull the rollers up sort of thing, I think it was there sort of thing, yes I remember that.

That's come up in one of the interviews before and someone said they couldn’t remember there being anything like that within the lido grounds but it had come up in previous things and it was said.

Yes I can remember sort of standing there queuing. What else do I remember? The kid’s playground, I didn’t mind the swings but I didn’t like much else, and I remember the old, which burnt down, the restaurant area, the cafe area sort of thing and the XXXX House. I use to think it was nice when I was little but when I want in when I was older, but then it might have changed from when I was little and that, yes. I remember the park keeper use to go round and you weren’t allowed to ride your bikes in the park. “Get off those bikes”. [Laugh]. And what else, I remember feeding, taking the stuff over and feeding the birds. The squirrels I don’t remember, maybe they weren’t there in the early year’s maybe they came later on but I remember feeding the swans and ducks and all that. And I remember the far end of the lake there was a little bit with motor boats, the little toy boats, motor boats whatever you call them, that area. I remember horrible story about the, I don’t know whether you want me to tell you this or not but you know the slide into the pool yes?

Yes.

They use to, I don’t know, the kids got in overnight and they put broken razor blades all the way down it...

Ouch.

Yes and somebody didn’t spot so somebody went down and, I remember that horrible story, that really...

That must have scared you off?

I mean I wouldn’t have gone down that anyway because I’m not good on heights and I regret not learning to swim, when I was, because they use to take us from school to Barking baths by bus every week and I use to have athlete’s foot and you couldn’t swim with that so of course I never done it when I was young and I regret now. I did try when I was older but the minute I felt myself go under I panicked and that so, but had I done it when I was younger I might be better with it . So I remember that, that horrible... I remember going over Barking Park courting [laugh], we use to, there was a area behind the baths, lake, you had the lake and a little hill and then there was a flat area and that was a good area to go because you were unseen sort of thing [laugh]. I’m trying to think what else I remember.

With you saying how busy the lido was did you use to queue for quite a while to be able to get in or was it just once you got in it was packed.

I or was it just once you got in it was packed.

Yes there were times when there were queues, yes. I can’t remember how long they were but I suppose when you’re a youngster and want to get in there even half a dozen people seems a long while sort of thing but yes, yes there use to be queues to get in there , I remember that. And I remember Barking Carnival because Dagenham had one and Barking had one and I remember Barking Carnival because I use to live down the end of Upney Lane, the block of flats there so that was handy because the Carnival use to go pass so we didn’t have to go outside, and I remember that use to go around and then end up in the park, I remember that, and the fireworks, they use to have that in Barking Park. I think they still had them last year. I remember standing on the roof of that, some kind of changing room building in there, standing on top there and watching them. Because the Round Table Rotary people use to do them so they would let us go up there, the kids go up there and look, watch the fireworks. I’m trying to think what else I remember. The rugby, I think they use to have rugby up there on a , yes I use to go over there with one boyfriend and watch rugby, it use to be along Longbridge Road , the pitches this side. What else do I remember? I’m trying to think off hand.

You said you went to feed the ducks and the swans and stuff were there many of those sort of things on the lake?

I remember we went over there and there were a couple of adult swans there and there were baby swans. I remember if you tried to go to near the adult s would hiss at you and that you know. But I enjoyed feeding the Canadian geese; well this is more later years I think because I don’t know whether they were there when I was small. Quite a few ducks and the moorhens and the coots’ I think they are called, pigeons obviously, pigeons are everywhere aren’t they. I can’t remember the squirrels when I was younger, they might have been there but maybe they weren’t as tame then as now and that, But I enjoyed, I know people don’t like them but I enjoyed feeding the Canadian geese, especially over in Mayesbrook Park as well because you would stand there and they would all come and I don’t know they must sort of have tom tom or something because there would be a few and then all of a sudden there was all of them and they would sort of like peck your leg in the end if you weren’t quick enough with the bread and that [laugh]. And sometime I would smack their beak because they would sort of like catch you, smack their beak and make them wake you know but I enjoyed, I liked the geese they’re nice. I know a lot of people moan about them but I like them. We had one out here once it was flying over I think from barking to Mayesbrook and the canopy was wet and they thought it was a lake and it came down, so we had it here for twenty four hours [laugh].

I suppose that’s one of the things about living so close to the Park that you end up with...

Yes, yes it was a shame because he was out there and he kept going between the gardens but he couldn’t get a run off but Pat rung the RSPCA and they said leave it overnight and it will go, by morning it will go. Well of course during the night the foxes, they didn’t get it, they did catch it but they managed to get rid of the foxes. And of course it wouldn’t go, it wasn’t injured but it just didn’t have enough take off so eventually somebody came down. But I suddenly thought oh I better put some water out for it because I’ve got a little drain out there where the washing machine, and it was drinking the water and I thought it’s all soapy water why is it drinking that and then I thought oh he hasn’t had anything to drink so I took a baking tray out because its beak had to go in something big enough [laugh]. So I took a baking tray out so it could get something long and he had a drink, but of course I gave it bread and that but I don’t think he wanted to eat so much It was most probably a little bit shocked and that you know but drink.

Can’t really give it a glass can you.

No [laugh] and then I got upset because it went when I’d nipped out and they came and got it while I was out and I couldn’t say bye, bye so I got upset [laugh]. Isn’t it stupid over a Canada goose [laugh].

I suppose if you liked him that much it’s fair enough.

Come back, where is it? Oh it’s gone, but I didn’t say ta tah to it [laugh]. It’s a bird.

You can go and see it in the Park.

Yes, which one of you was in my garden? Put your wing up [laugh].

With the, when you went as a child and went on the train and boats and stuff was that a special day out sort of thing, that you would come over and specifically go to

We would bring a packed lunch; it was a whole day, well as far as I know it was a whole day. We would get a bus because we only lived near what was the Fiddlers but of course like then you could be going to Scotland sort of thing. It was get a bus and you’re could be going for a day out and we would come in the morning and have a whole day there and picnic and that and then go home and then we would even go like when we use to lived in Lyndhurst we would go over and that sort of thing but not so much for the day because you are only across the road from it yes. It was an outing you know and in a way it, although you had to pay for something it was a cheap, a cheaper day out shall I put it because you couldn’t afford a lot of stuff so it was a way of having a day out and not costing too much, especially during the summer holidays because when you’re at school because you’re alright for a couple of weeks and then, “Mum we’re bored”, “Well go and find a book or something”. You know you don’t know what to do with yourself and that.

What was it like going on the train?

The little train?

Yes.

I enjoyed that, I enjoyed that. I liked the boat but I’m a bit wary with, being as I don’t swim and that you know so I enjoyed but yes.

Was that when it use to, at that point was it just going up and down the one side, it wasn’t at the back.

Yes it just went from the gate to the, just that side bit to practically where the lake is now, sort of similar like that, yes. I don’t know if you, I can’t remember if you bought a return ticket, like whether you could come back for the same price or whether you bought, you paid each way I don’t know. But I remember you go down and then you go on the boats sort of thing. There use to be a queue and then there would be trouble with, they would have to call the boats in, “Come in number your time is up”, you know sort of thing, and sometimes you’d get kids playing about between the boats and that, throwing things or slashing and that. Not so much us but like when you’ve got two boats that boys or girls or whatever, yes.

I suppose if you can’t swim that is a bit of a worry when there are people messing about.

Yes, yes, well of course you know the boat only seems about that much away from the water. No I do regret not being able to swim because I think it’s a thing you could even do now like , not over there obviously but the baths, the swimming pools and that you know it’s something that stays with you really.

Some people learn some people don’t.

Yes, yes.

It’s just one of those things.

One of those things. I’m just trying to think what else.

Do you remember anything about the bandstand?

I remember the bandstand there, I’m trying to think if I remember, [pause] I’m trying to think if I remember bands or whether someone was up there, like a speech or anything like that. I remember it but , and the War Memorial thing behind, well I think it was behind it sort of thing, I remember it but we didn’t seem to go round that way so much sort of thing but I do remember it being there yes. I’m trying to thing what else I can remember. The fair coming,, I remember the fair that only use to come , you had the Barking carnival and that would be when the fair was. You didn’t get it all year round, it would come for two weeks in September and it always rained those two weeks because they always ended, because they bought the element you didn’t want so you just wanted it to come and go and of course it always rained and one year I think it was there for about a month because it rained so much they couldn’t get out, you know they had to wait for it to harden up. And you’d get, well like everything else you’d get the trouble makers come in from other areas and that but then you get that everywhere. And I remember the fair, I didn’t like fairs, I liked the fish thing, like the side shows but I didn’t like the , I’d go on the helter skelter and maybe the dodgems but I didn’t like the big rides and all that. I went on one of the big rides and I nearly came off and that, not when I was, that was when I was older but I never particularly liked fairs but I thought brave it and go on it and I came off this horse thing or whatever and luckily enough one of the staff came and grabbed me otherwise I don’t know where I would have ended up and I thought that’s it. No, no more fairs. [laughs]. I go for a look round, but, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah. I can’t remember if we ever won anything there.

And um, you talked a bit about the park wardens, what were they like, do you remember any in particular?

Oh, I just remember the one over there, he used to have like the dark uniform. Trousers, jacket and hat. It was a bit like, to me, I don’t know if that’s true or not, you know er, the bloke in on the buses? Um, Blakey?

Yeah.

He was, to me, he reminded me of him. He could ride his bike through, and he’d have a whistle, I remember the whistle. I think the whistle was more for like, he’d go round and you, you had to get out. But he would patrol other times and if he saw you, oi! No riding in the park! Get off the park, er bike, you’ve got to wheel it through! And all that. You know. Er, but I remember seeing him go round I think. And I think I suppose when you’re kids, although he’d tell you off you were grateful of something, like him being there to look out- if you were there on your own, to look out for you and all that.

Yeah.

You know.

What about, any of the other park staff, like the nursery or...?

I remember where they were. I mean I always thought the park looked lovely, especially those beds by the lodge and that. And er, [coughs], it’s a shame they really got rid of the nurseries, because a lot of people used to buy the flowers from, from like, er, what they didn’t want or whatever. And they, I think my friend in Shirley, they used to buy a lot of the flowers. And they’d last forever, and they were lovely flowers and all that, you know.

Hmmm.

And er, so it’s a shame they’ve gone really. Um, but then, I don’t think they’ve, did they go to Dagenham? But I don’t think they’ve got them at Dagenham now, I think they buy the flowers in, you know.

Yeah.

Just pay them, excuse me, and all that. Yeah. Yeah, er, but it always used to look nice. By, right by the, well, the whole park did, but especially by the gate when, when they’d actually have a flower beds and all that, you know.

Yeah. Was that by the lodge?

Yes, that’s right yeah, yeah. I always wanted, er, even though a couple of years ago, I said, if you sell this house I’d like to know, I’d like to buy it.

[laughs].

You know. I’d like, I, I like the house, it’s, it’s not very big, you’ve, have you been inside?

Er, no, I haven’t.

No.

I’ve heard, sort of bits about the layout.

Have you?

But I haven’t...

It, it’s lovely, it’s a funny, you go in, and the stairs go up, like three sided and that, so um, I think it’s three bedroom with oh, the bathroom is hideous. It’s, it’s a what? Sixties, seventies bathroom, but it’s bright pink!

[laughs].

Black and white chequered floor, and bright pink, xxxx, fittings, you know. And er, but still, that was somebody’s tastes then. Um, but it, it’s a nice, I just liked the house, just liked the shape and the unusualness about it. You know. I’d like to live there. [laughs].

I suppose especially once they’ve done, they’ve finished all the work on the park...

Yeah it’d be lovely wouldn’t it, sort of thing?

Nice. Have that as your back garden!

That’s be lovely wouldn’t it? It wouldn’t worry me being, being on the edge of the park, because I know, you’re gonna be any unsafer than here, sort of thing.

No. Um, have there been, has there been much trouble within the park then, you were talking about people coming for the fair and things like that?

I think they’ve had a few like, er, maybe the odd stabbing, or er, fights and all that. But I don’t suppose it’s any worse than, I mean it’s not like the riots we’ve just had, it was nothing compared to them. I mean, I suppose basically on the whole it’s not bad, you, the mela comes, every August I think it is. The Mela. Which is fine, but it causes chaos up, it’s only for a day or whatever, but I know the, a couple of years ago we were coming back along Longbridge, as the Mela was sort, starting to turn out. And it was like gridlock. You didn’t know what, you know, cars couldn’t move here there or everywhere. But I mean, they xxxx xxxx sort themselves out and that. So that comes. The parade used to leave, the carnival used to go round Barking, come back in, in to the main gate, and you’d have the Queen would be crowned, the carnival Queen, and all this that and the other. And then in the evening the fair would open. Where as now, it’s sort of, it’s always there. I think it’s there at the moment I think.

Yeah.

And it was here in, where was it? May. And it was here a couple of weeks ago or whatever. It always keeps coming and that. Um, but then it was for the two weeks, and then after that they would go in to their winter quarters then. That was like the last one of the year there. Um, but I don’t remember...I can’t remember a lot of, you get the odd fights, and people come in for the carni-, er, the fair and er, trouble and all that, but no, nothing drastic I don’t think. You know.

Hmmm. Ok. Um, when we did the reminiscence session, and someone brought up a memory of a man who used to dress as a cow boy and ride...?

Oh Les knight!

Was there anything that you can, remember? ‘Cause um, yeah we tried to, we tried to have an interview with Elsie, who was talking about it, but she’s not able to do an interview with us.

Oh is she? Right. She er, he lived down Wilmington, down the main, what I call the main park. The part that goes out to Longbridge Road. And he used to be a window cleaner. And, er, he was smaller than me, um, but it didn’t matter what the weather was, he had black trousers, white t-shirt.

[laughs].

And that was it, no coat, no jumper, no nothing. All year round. Um, and I remember xxxx going, he used to do like the shops along Longbridge, he done me mum’s windows once, I can’t remember, here I think it was. Um, and he, he sort of, I, one day he saw me and I said, oh, sorry I haven’t got time to talk Les, I’ll talk to you later. And he turned funny. Eventually I apolo-, I said, what’s wrong? What have I done? He said, you were short with me the other day. But he stopped doing me mum’s windows for it. And I thought, oh well if you take umbrage of that, that’s down to you, but yes he was a weird, always very smart, very, very highly polished shoes, crease just so, very, very smart but he always, that always sticks in my head, all year round, black trousers, white tee shirt, never ever a coat or anything. I mean I don’t know about when he went out, but when he was working that's how he, you know and he would walk along, he had a sort of limp, he had limp and he’d have his, he only had one of those short ladders, he had his bucket and you would see him walking down the road, yes. He had a brother, he was shorter than him and he use to work, when Woolworth was here, when it had the old wood floors years ago, he was a very little man and he had, he had this broom, you know one of those wide brooms, well it was wider than he was tall sort of thing and he kept kicking my Dad’s feet with it and my Dad said, sort of turned around and said, “You do that one more time I’ll break that broom in half or what ever”, and he called me Dad a rude word and my Dad said, “Don’t let me hear you call me that again”. But he was a weird man but I didn’t realise until later years that that was his brother and he was a very, very little man, very short, very skinny little man, very small.

So the story about him on his horse xxxx?

I can’t remember, I mean he might have done but I can’t remember that.

I’m trying to find that out.

Find that out, he use to wear black, he could have done because he use to wear these highly polished black sort of boot things and they had like the Cuban heel, so whether that is, he could have done and that's a off shoot of that, but I, I mean personally I can’t remember seeing him with a horse but that's not to say he didn’t [laugh].

Sounds like he was enough of a character.

Yes,yes.

So the story could well be true.

I would imagine yes more than likely would I think. I can’t remember how, if there was just the two of them, I can’t remember a lot about his family because I didn’t have so much to do with him until later years. Whether he moved or whether he passed on I don’t know but obviously I haven’t seen him, if he’s moved I haven’t seen him for a few years now. And the brother I would imagine would be dead because he was quite old or appeared old then sort of thing you know, yes.

You mentioned the , the cafe part of the, was that the pavilion?

Yes.

And it looked a lot different when you were older. What was it like when you were younger?

I remember it, it use to have table and chairs with tablecloths, it might have been the plastic red and white chequered ones but they were tablecloths. I think they done, I think it was just sandwiches, things like that, sandwiches, rolls, maybe sausage rolls, pies. But they use to have ice-cream, milkshakes, milkshakes and that. and when I went back it didn’t seem, there was a few table and chairs but it was very stark, compared to when we were younger you would have like, I think they use to have the tomato sauce bottles on the table and salt and pepper and that, but when you went back it was very, very stark, there was nothing on the tables and that, very bland. They had ice-cream and that but not, it just weren’t as nice as when, unless when you’re younger you see things differently but I didn’t like the feel of it so much.

Okay.

Don’t like the toilets in the park, they’re a bit eerie sort of dark. I don’t know if you have ever been in the park have you?

I’ve been in the park but I haven’t been to...

Maybe you haven’t used them.

I haven’t been to the toilets no.

The ones where, they are where the cafe use to be, the cafe and the toilets there by the, you‘ve got the tennis courts here sort of thing, the toilets there and I don’t know if I ever went into the other ones or whether they were just the gents like the Victorian ones over there, I never went in there but these ones were very, they are all grey and marble sort of, they’re not marble but that's what we think. Very cold, metal doors and that, very cold and all that you know so not very enticing, a bit eerie [laugh].

As you went to park modern did you ever do things as a school in the park being that close?

I really can’t, I can’t, no, we went over Mayesbrook to the, I remember going to the yachting over there. I don’t know whether you have been in Mayesbrook, they have got the lake with; I don’t now if they have still got them but then they had yachts. So I remember like going over Mayesbook but I can’t remember going over Barking Park. They took us to, we had a tour round Fords from the school, and where else did we go, somewhere else. Might have been the Houses of Parliament or somewhere like that but I remember going to Fords as a class we went round Fords but I can’t remember, I really can’t remember going as a school going to Barking Park. Might have used Mayesbrook, because we used part of the running track for our P E like running lessons and all that as well. So maybe they took us there because it was a bit closer maybe. They use to take us from there to the Barking swimming pool baths as I say by coach from Sandringham Road.

Going back to the lido what were the lifeguards like, were they quite strict?

That's a point, I remember one or two use to have the hats on, the swimming hats, yes I remember one or two. They, I can remember them around but I can’t, I think they were sort of like; they would sit there up on those chairs and watch and all that and come down. I’m surprised they didn’t pick up the razor thing but that might not have been their job.

I suppose you wouldn’t think to check.

No you wouldn’t think anybody would do that would you really.

No, quite a malicious thing to do.

It is isn’t it, I mean how long ago, that must have been about fifty, sixties, a long, long while ago now so hopefully not a thing anybody would do now. I remember like, I walked through there, now and again I walk through there to go to Ilford, well not now the works are going on, before they started the works, but when I had my friend’s dog a couple of years ago I would take him over there and the other friend’s dog I’d take him over there. I’m always a bit wary because you don’t know what other dogs are like, because if it was my own dog fine you know, but when it’s somebody else’s you don’t want then to get bitten or anything to happen you know.

Do you tend to get a lot of people dog walking over there?

I think they, yes, I think there are quite a few and I think they have started their own little, like friends group, a dog walker’s group as well, as far as I know, I think they have because my friend round there goes, she’s got a dog, I don’t know if she goes to this group but I know through the Friends of Barking Park they have said there is this group. The dog walkers have set up there own little group which is good you know. They had a bit of trouble with they, well not trouble, well there was trouble but not in the park. These dogs lived in one of the houses down that side of the park, I think they were xxxx; they are like a Japanese fighting dog or something. And they look very nice but I think they can be a bit, and they were getting into the park from their back garden, and I think they sort of got a couple of dogs so they have them taken away now because they had mum and dad and some babies and they have all had them confiscated now. They shouldn’t attack other dogs but there again you don’t know whether they are going to attack people as well.

How did you get involved with the Friends of barking Park?

Well was it about two thousand and whatever, a few years now, I think something was put through the door about being a friend, so I went over, joined, because, although I don’t use it every day, I sort of live in the area and all that, I just wanted to help them so we went to a meeting there. I think it was in the bowls area originally. And like everything else there were lots of people in the beginning, and then it gradually dwindled, until like now there is a few, I think it stopped for a while and then set up again you know. So just really to help, if I can help them and help the community and that you know, try and keep an eye on the park, yes.

Being such a big green space it’s quite important for the local area to have that.

Well yes, because there are so many flats now in Barking so it gives people a chance to get out into; you know to get respite and that. And also I heard somebody say, a councillor say, when there was an open day in Vicarage Fields and I wasn’t on the stall but a couple of people were and when they said, “What are you”, and they said,” Friends of Barking Park”, he said, “Huh give me Barking Park and I’d build forty thousand homes on there”. And you think there’s enough homes here anyway you need a bit of green space.

Yes, you can’t just have rows and rows of houses.

No you need it sort of thing yes. Well it’s alright for him he won’t live, I mean A. I would like to keep it as a park and B. he doesn’t live opposite or near it anyway you know.

Sorry to keep jogging back to two things. When we were talking about the boating lake, when was it that there stop being boats on it?

I can’t remember when the big boat went, the paddle steamer, well I call it the paddle steamer, I think it was a paddle steamer...

The Phoenix.

Yes that's it; I was going to say I couldn’t remember the name of it. I couldn’t remember when Alex stopped doing it, he hasn’t done it for a few years now, since, because I think he put a lot of his own money in it and it was just eating it up. You can only put so much in can’t you sort of thing, so it’s been a few years since there has been boats on there. I remember rowing boats and motor boats. I can’t remember, and the big boat, but I can’t remember any other than that. But when we had the meeting, the Friends meeting it might be nice to have pedaloes, different sorts you know. I can’t remember if they had, I don’t suppose they had it there, but maybe over Mayesbrook they might have had kayaks as well. But I can’t remember them over there. It’s been a few years since, obviously once you grow out of boats you don’t really take much notice of it sort of thing you know. I’d walk along the front there, A. for a walk and B. to look at the birds and all that. Because the minute they see humans they think of food don’t they [laugh.

Especially swans

Yes [laugh]. I don’t know if they are back yet because they took them away while the work was, like the swans anyway, the geese and that have just gone to other parks you know. But the swans went away somewhere, whether they are back yet I don’t know.

The geese have probably flown to the nearest park, the nearest bit of water.

Yes you can hear them, well if they come the right way you can hear them of an evening going honk, honk as they go across when they are going home to bed or wherever. You never hear them going out, but then they could go early as soon as its light, they could go out, but coming home you sometimes hear them [laugh].

They do tend to do things by; they go by light rather than...

Yes xxxx clocks and all that, if its light they will go rather than, its too early, its too late or whatever, [laugh] yes looking at the watch, yes. What else is there I can tell you about I’m tying to think.

Living this close to the park is it somewhere that you would go for if you just needed a respite from sort of...

Yes, I’ll tell you what I do a lot of, when I’ve been to Barking and I’m, because, I don’t know if you know but I do a lot of my friends and my Mum and all that, so if I’ve gone to Barking, many a time I’ll walk down, especially now they have got that new road, that new path inside, I walk back through there to my Mum’s say because she’s up there in Longbridge, because it’s nice, its just you feel you have gone somewhere different, its peaceful and its nice you know, yes, yes, I enjoy it, its very nice. I might try and get on a back [?] walk if they do another one, but no it is nice to walk through there just to, you just feel like you have been somewhere different even if you haven’t you know, peace, and I like, I like walking through leaves, that noise and that.

It getting to that time of year.

Yes it is, like that next door [laugh].

Yes.

I remember the other, was it last year or the year before, we were doing a clean up day in the park, well not day, a couple of hours, in the park, and we were doing along, in the park but the railing side and there was a xxxx and various people, so I had gone off with this Robert and we were going, we were doing the railings, going all the way along the railings, through the leaves, picking up anything, any rubbish, the glass and all that. The leaves the machine could pick up but we were going underneath. And of course we are going along working away together and all that and all of a sudden we look round and there is only us two. Where’s everybody else? And they were all back, they hadn’t come and told us, we were up the other end, we had done the whole way to Faircross and that's when we were looking around thinking where’s everybody else, where do we go now. so we said we would go back towards the Lodge and find out. And they had all gone in for tea and left us to it [laugh]. We thought we could have ended up doing Mayesbrook as well no one would have come and said, “Oye there’s a cup of tea in there”, [laugh]. But that was nice. It annoys me, the other week I went over there with my friend, she’s got two dogs, she runs, she goes various places, but I had gone over there with her one night and we were walking around and there’s people here and there’s rubbish there and the bin, you know. And we were going around with the dogs, picking up rubbish and putting it in the bins and that, and that annoys me, take it with you or there are bins there, put it in the bins you know.

Yes, instead of putting it next to the bin.

Yes, yes, that's right, you know. So that annoys me.

Is that something the friends group do, a lot of those clean up day, is that with the Friends that you did it?

Why did we do that? we done that as, I don’t know if that was a one of in the park.

It had got particularly bad?

Yes, you know, I have helped when we have done along Longbridge by the flats, I’ve done a clean up there as well. I would like to help, because I do so much other stuff I’m limited for what I can do with the park but maybe when its up and running I could help with the, in the hub thing, something like that, plus the fact I’m getting older, I can’t dig, whereas maybe the younger ones can do more heavy work and that you know, yes. I would like to, I can’t stand litter everywhere and all this that and the other. It annoys me, I’ve seen people drop things and say would you do that indoors, go and put it in the bin or take it home with you or whatever. If everybody picked one thing up you wouldn’t have any of this litter. Anyway that me off [laugh] I don’t need to burden you with that.

No I think its one of those things about the park over time that peoples sort of attitude to how they treat it has changed. Especially with the wardens and things because you were saying when you were younger and there was the wardens who not so much crate fear but there was something to be respected and you didn’t mess around with them and then now...

I mean like when I was young, not because my Dad was in the police, but we were always told if you were out and something happens, you know, go and find a policeman or ask a policeman, if you were lost or want to know the time or whatever. But you know now I don’t think people, well most people would but you get the odd element that would rather kick their head in rather than, they have got no respect as you say or failing that we were told like if you think you are being followed go and knock on some, where you see a light go and knock on the door, you know and say can I, but you know you can’t tell kids to do that now can you. Because you don’t know who is behind that door and all that you know.

Yes I suppose there wasn’t the fear of who was behind the door.

That's right, it was different wasn’t it.

Even when I was growing up you could do things like that and it wasn’t...

It was safe was it sort of thing, yes. I mean its like, was it yesterday on the bus, this little tot, and of course the bus jolted and of course I steadied her, its just you know there was a little kiddie in Vicarage Fields the other, a few months ago, crying, lost, “Oh Mum”, I went up and got hold of her and said, “Whats wrong where’s your Mum”. I automatically do it but of course some people say, “Oh you shouldn’t do that”, but you don’t, because I don’t mean any harm I don’t look at it like that. It’s a shame when you can’t help a lost kiddie or whatever you know.

I suppose it’s just a general feeling of fear and it makes thing like that worse.

Yes that's right.

You said you use go courting with your husband in the , was that something a lot of people did, would you often see couples walking around.

Usually in the park yes. Weren’t loads and loads but yes there would be a few of us would go over there like sort of thing. Because sometimes we would go, you know the bushes along Longbridge you could get in the middle there, like find a tree, whatever you know [laugh]. But yes, just somewhere, because you couldn’t go home or this sort of thing so you just go there sort of thing, bit of privacy. I remember we would go out and we would come home from wherever, go up the chippy and get some chips because it was still open and then maybe go over there before he took me home and that you know [laugh].

So would the did you used to go to access the park so sort whenever or was it

Yeah because we I you know wouldn’t be the type to climb over or break in and that so it was either, either there was a gap in the fence and it was open you know we never I am sure it must have been open sort of thing the gates open maybe if they’d forget to lock one or miss it or whatever you like this sort of thing so but we never, never sort break in or anything like that just or climb over you know I don’t think I could [laughter]. [Clears throat]. But yeah we’d, we’d you know get in usually I would imagine it is from this the entrance this end by opposite Faircross I’d go in from that way sort of thing erm and walk across and that, yeah I am trying to think what else done over there.

In the reminiscence sessions someone was talking about a house that used to be that opposite the park and they did Christmas lights.

Yes, Mr. Xxxxx that was it was on the corner of either Aldersey or Strathfield I can see the house I can’t remember what road it was on the corner of.

Yeah.

And he used to have the front the garden all he had a wishing well and er lots of lights and displays up and that that and that was lovely and we used to come from we’d been we you know we used to come from Dagenham as well and lots of people come from quiet a way to see it when he used to its been about twenty years I suppose since he’s done it. Yeah it must be twenty, twenty something years er because he got older erm but he would raise money for er where did he raise it for? There was a holiday home at Clacton he had a holiday home at Clacton he had a holiday home the Aldice because he’s don’t know if he was connected but one of his sons who we lived near had all the this is xxxxx furnisher shop whether the dad the dad might have been part of it as well I don’t know but they used to have a furniture shop at well I think it was in Barking but then they went to Dagenham and that been on the trading estate but yeah Mr. Xxxx used to do it up every year erm I don’t know I suppose in December or whenever it was it used to be lovely you know and see kids faces like you know like I would just stand there and watch some of the kids you know their the awe in their faces. It was lovely. Used to put money in the wishing well and he raised money for the home and that erm and then it was we was I mean yes he got older I admit it must been getting a bit much for him but the last time he done it he had the money taken you they so that was it you know and I suppose age as well ‘cos he must have been a rare old age so but used to enjoy that was part I used to love that every Christmas oh he’d be doing is garden up so you know we’d would go and see it. You know even as an adult I’d like to see it, yeah.

Its was a bench like sort of a bench mark to when Christmas is coming.

That’s right yeah., yeah. Yeah I mean now they do the trees at Faircross oh the last couple of years and that you know which is fine but it’s I suppose because of the ties with being a kid as well with Mr. Xxxxx is one of those of things it’s so pretty and you’d had things year on year and new things he’d have like I think he had a post there so the little kids would bring their Santa letters and that you know which is all part of the magic isn’t it because that’s, that who it’s the kids that Christmas you know, you know it’s lovely watching them and yeah, yeah, it’s nice.

Was there any ever any sort of Christmas displays in the park itself? Did they ever do the trees up or anything?

I can’t remember any but that’s what we had discussed as a friends group maybe we could have a little Christmas either do what’s up there or have a display you know like I don’t know somewhere just a little display with Christmas tree and bits of pieces actually in the park maybe like when the hubby is up do outside the hub or something like that you know that would nice something like that in the park.

Yeah.

Would be nice. Especially if you are going have less classrooms there erm so it would be a thing that you can do and if they are bringing the kids over you know like at Christmas bring them, bring the classes of especially [clears throat] excuse me. Especially the little ‘uns , they’d, they’d enjoy that. Wouldn’t they?

Hmm.

Yeah.

Erm you mentioned a bat walk what was

Yeah, the friends I’ve never I’ve not been one yet but eh Emma the ranger she’s, she’s done a bat walk. Well not her she’s got some she has been there but somebody has come down and done it and there’s supposed to be several different varieties of bat in there so I would mind like going sort of thing to erm obviously it’s a evening like I don’t know what time of night it is eight, nine, ten o’clock at night whatever time is appropriate I suppose but that would be nice to hear you can hear the er clicks and that you get a machine to carry around and you can hear them clicking away and all that so that would be nice yeah see that. One of the men er friends he hasn’t been at the last couple of times but one of the friends made some bat boxes and some bird boxes and they put them like done it all voluntary and they’d put them on trees and where ever is appropriate sort of thing but you have to place them in a certain way Emma knows she’s really up on it you know where to them and how to place them and all that yeah so that would be nice.

And erm do you have any is there anything that we haven’t mentioned any funny stories about things that have happened in the park or anything like that?

Ooh. I can’t, I can’t think of any. I’m trying to the I used help out at the oh Longbridge Youth Club it’s finished now but I was there and they were either benches or trees they were um bushes gonna have put some things in whether they ever did I don’t know but with some money that they raised they were going to put some things along the what they call the monkey parade. Erm either benches or more trees with a plaque on and that. I am trying to think of anything funny I can’t [pause] no I can’t of hand sort of thing [laughter].

That’s fine.

Um trying to think what else I can tell you about if there is anything or is that.

If there’s anything that we touched

Covered

And that yeah.

I can’t think of any off hand what in the park or

Just

Generally?

Yeah just generally if there’s it all goes down as sort of your oral history.

In the archives anyway.

Yeah so if there is anything that

I’m trying to think now what, what I can [laughter] little bit on the spot you are trying to think there is so much going round sort of thing I remember sort of thing I remember the old shops in I remember the library burning down in Barking, they the library was round yeah they had the library round back and they rebuilt it, beautiful building. Beautiful. It was like an old house erm I don’t know whether it was a vicarage or what it was an old house and they rebuilt it and inside it hadn’t been opened only a couple weeks. I’d been inside to look at it all wood and all that and then what happens in the summer holidays ‘cos I was a bit older we’d, we’d get on a bus and mum and dad, mum and dad were at work because dad done shift work and that we’d go up to my aunts at Popular on the bus and the bus used to go round through Barking like eh done and then round er the one way system that way and we went passed one day and there’s the library burnt down. Only been open a couple of weeks and that was, was really ups… not upsetting but you know what I mean a bit sad it had only been open a couple weeks it was a beautiful building. I remember other things like the shops er I think it was Princes, called Princes like haberdasher’s and that and they had the old where you put the money in and it goes zooming up er you wouldn’t remember that you put the money in put it a thing and it zoom up upstairs and that and then they’d send your change down

Oh okay, yeah.

You know that sort of thing. And there used to be opposite where MacDonald’s is opposite the corner there used to Bewley’s er a jewellers. Lovely jewellers, really lovely but as you went in it was it had a big, big glass clock in the floor you know that was lovely. Xxxxx go in apparently well the xxxx going I don’t know what they’ll do with the building but that would be a shame if that goes.

Hmm.

Because it’s a lovely place. What else can I remember? I’ve been up the curfew tower at St. Margaret’s up the tower there that is a bit it’s lovely but it’s very, very narrow and spiral and there’s no like no banisters or anything so it’s a bit, it’s nice, it’s nice up there. Not very big there is a room up there with chairs and that. Er what else can I tell you? They’re doing station just started doing the station up again.

Erm there is one last thing I wanted to ask about the park. You say that your family used to come for days out was things was something that a lot of people would do from sort of the surrounding area and even maybe further afield that people would because it was such a sort of well known and well in terms of facilities it had

Yeah I found

Was that something that people would do that they would travel for the day.

I think that they would because they were oh I trying to think what because the cars were very I mean my dad when we moved to Barking my dad had to sell his car to it was like a old it was nice car but old but he had to sell that to get the last deposit last for the deposit

Hmm

So things were quiet tight so people didn’t have cars like now erm er and if you had one per house that was you know it’s not like now where some houses have got three or four and all that erm so I think a lot of people would come from the day because er come for the day because er one time like up the lane was I mean I can’t remember this but it was purely a lane when you see photos of it and that so I think yeah a lot of people would come from h I am trying to think if we ever come ‘cos we moved into Dagenham when I was six months old so I doubt if we would have come from Popular to barking but we used to come from Dagenham which I know now is only round the corner but then it would be you know like quiet a journey sort of thing so I think a lot of people would and I think it used to be a beautiful park you know flowers and trees and it will be again but it was just a nice park sort of thing you know yeah so I lot of people would come for the day and it was as I say when we were in Dagenham it was a day out you would have picnic erm sandwiches, biscuits, crisps whatever, you know whatever I don’t know what we brought then er bottles of er flask I remember we used to have bring a flask of tea and all that. A blanket sit on the ground and that [laughter] so yeah I think a lot of people would have done that yeah, yeah.

Sort of day out xxxx

It was yeah, yeah. Yeah, because I mean like er xxxxx when I youngster Southend would be like a real treat.

Hmm.

But now people commute from Southend but then it would have been a real, real treat to go down the seafront.

Yeah.

And yeah you’d have the fair and candyfloss and all that so yeah.

I think that is all I have got to ask about the park unless there is anything else but.

I am trying to think if there is anything else. I went over the other week they done a Paws in the Park and they are doing one Saturday I think where or they had erm a little area it’s a shame it was a horrible day but they had an area where dogs were doing going over the jumps and all that, that was nice. I like things like that. I can’t remember we’ve have horses we used to have a circus in the park

Hmm.

I used to enjoy the circus.

Was that part of the fair?

No, it was another time.

It was separate?

Yeah, separate from that and I used to enjoy that because I like the animals. I know people say it’s cruel but I used to like seeing the animals.

Hmm.

But when it became all erm trapeze acts and all that I lost interest I’m not, I’m not in trapeze. Yeah, I like athletics but not like the big top things and that, I am not interested in that. Clowns, I like clowns but I don’t like their routine in, in the big top and that. But they I used I like the animals, the lions, the elephant, we had tigers as well I suppose you know that sort of thing. Horses when they used to do the dance you know parade around and that so once they got rid of the animals that lost I didn’t want to know anymore then.

Did that come once a year?

Yeah, that was once was it erm Billy’s Smart Circus, that’s it. Billy Smart Circus. Er, because the thing was September the fair was September so this I don’t I can’t remember when the circus would be it would be summer time I suppose you know May, June, July maybe, yeah but I remember Billy smart Circus yeah I remember that coming. But they’ve had a little circus since but it’s there’s no ani… I’ve been over there because I don’t like

No.

If there’s animals yeah fine but not otherwise [laughter]. They have various things er the other week they had the erm what was that cycle thing they had where they cycle round? And they had like erm a few animals from the it might have been Wellgate City Farm or one of these a few animals from the farm you know? But other than that they don’t apart from people taking dogs and what lives over there you don’t get many animals over there now. Foxes I suppose but

Hmm.

Yeah mind you I think foxes are more round here than in the park.

More bins for them to go through here.

Yeah exactly, yeah. Yeah, yeah you would get more food. It all right while people over the park once that’s exhausted and then yeah they’d come round here for food and all that. Yeah I can’t yeah Billy Smart Circus I can’t remember what else they would have had. I suppose because is the bandstand still there?

No.

It’s gone, innit, it’s gone. Because was that the one they moved to Barking and then it went again?

Yeah. I think.

It was that one weren’t it?

It was, it was in the High street area of barking for a bit, I think.

That’s right. Yeah.

Because there it was shut in the park and then it moved down to

Down to there.

Yeah.

It’s a shame really because in a way because what you could do erm well I suppose you could still do it mainly by the war memorial though is maybe do a carol concert.

Hmm.

You know like obviously at Christmas and that and do, yeah it’s not big enough because they do like a concert down on Abbey Green don’t they? But I suppose this is, this not quite so, quiet big enough for that sort of thing.

No.

But yeah, so.

Maybe they could do one around the hub when that’s open.

That would be nice, wouldn’t it? Yeah, yeah. Because I said what would nice on the Abbey Green area is if they could do like an amphitheatre thing.

Hmm.

And then people would could sit up and you’d have the what you know that would be nice as well.

Yeah.

Something like that. I remember going in the bake NatWest in barking with my no Barclays with my friend. I didn’t like bank machining we were in the queue and there was erm Chip Hawkes I don’t know if you remember him now Tremeloes

Okay, yeah.

If you’ve heard of the Tremeloes he was one them I liked him and he’s son I can’t think of what his name is but he’s very much like him but anyway when I was like in my teens he was there was various he was one of them I liked and we were in the queue and saying ‘that’s Chip Hawkes in front’, ‘no it’s not’, ‘yes it is’, ‘no there’s not’ we are having this argument well anyway he went I said ‘he’s’, ‘no he’s not, he wouldn’t be in here would he’? So he went up to the counter she went up to her counter and I went waiting over on the side and as he’s walked past he’s said ‘tell your friend I am Chip Hawkes’. And I was really I was annoyed about it [laughter]. I said ‘that was him’ I said ‘I could have got his autograph’ and he’d gone you know and er I walked down the road and said hello to er Brian Paul because his mum used to live in well he might have done as well bit I remember his mum living in Wilburton.

Hmm.

And he used to come back and see hers like I walked past one day he got out the car xxxxx you know I went in Spotted Dog met used to meet Rod on a Friday there

Hmm

‘Cos he finished a bit earlier than me on Friday and we’d meet there and then go shopping and I walked in there and there is this bloke there all on his own and I feel really, really wicked now because he was like sort of listening and trying to join in and that and you know what it is like when you’re talking you, you don’t what other people at times and as I say I really regret it now as it was Bobby Moore and I thought ‘oh god, the poor man is dead now’ you know like, you know so

Yeah.

But yeah Bobby Moore was in there. I suppose because you don’t you click at the time it was Bobby Moore.

No.

It was afterwards you think ‘oh god, that was Bobby Moore in’ you know. Er we went we used to the Royal Oak in Dagenham er because they had the bar and the stage was like behind the bar and there was the that was The Tremeloes in the whole group there then. But yeah.

Er, because Bobby Moore was used to play football over in the park xxxxx

Yeah, yeah he must have done sort of thing I think. My I mean it is nothing to do with this but niece is working at the new Westfield.

Oh.

Er when she went there a couple weeks to set up and when it opened she’s got a photo I haven’t seen it but she’s got a photo with Colin Jackson with his arm round her you know ‘cos he opened it and all that you know so that would be nice to see I hadn’t see it yet. Yeah, anyway I am boring you [laughter]. I am trying to think if there’s anything else. But don’t let me keep you if you’ve got to

Oh, no

Get going or

I’ve got an empty afternoon.

Have you? Um. It’s hard to think, isn’t it?

Don’t

Don’t rack me brain?

Yeah, don’t xxxx I think everything we’ve got is fine.

Is that, is that yeah.

Especially the

A few bits you can use anyway maybe.

But yeah erm everything will go to the park itself once the project is done anyway so they’ll have all of the

There’s a friends meeting next Wednesday I don’t know if you can come to anything like that if you are interested?

Yeah, erm.

Or a member of staff anyway.

Yeah I think because we are doing this with, we are doing this with Andy so it is being done with the park.

Right.

Themselves so I think they are sort of trying to set up some more reminiscence sessions at the moment and there is talk of maybe doing one with the friends group.

Oh right, right.

So ‘cos erm I’ll pause this.

End.

2011_esch_BaPa_10

2011_esch_BaPa_10

If I could ask you to say your full name please?

My name is Christine Joan Taylor as it was erm my birth date is the first of the first nineteen fifty five. I lived in The Lodge from the time I was born until nineteen seventy-six. Erm my poor mum had a delivery in Upney Lane because she didn’t get put on time [laughter]. So that was leaving the park she didn’t get out on time. Erm, yeah I lived at the house, very happy childhood memories for twenty-one years, um, just lots and lots of memories. Do you want?

Yeah, please do.

Um, as I said we used to go park the park every day, we used to go on the little train which run by a bloke called Alec. Um, me and my brother used to go on the train and when our children were born we used to go back and sort of go on the train again; take the children have a ride up to the lake. Erm, there was a paddle steamer on the lake that used to be called the Phoenix. Um, obviously gone many, many years now. Um, we used to have motor boats and rowing boats on the lake. Erm, as I said we used to go to the park; my mum used to watch from The Lodge with her binocular and Mr. Wight who erm used to help with the swings and everything he used to push us over there. Um., my mum as I said watched with binoculars. Um, as I said as growing up we used to just liberally go and get the conkers of the conker tree [laughter] which you shouldn’t do. Um, we erm used to have a dog patrol in the park by a guy called Jock, a Scottish man with a big German Sheppard. Erm, as I said he used to come into the park er every evening and stop off before he started his tour for a cup of tea with that my mum and dad used to make for him and erm I as quiet scared of the dog but he assured me it would be fine. Er, that’s when the park was closed every evening erm before the outdoor bowls or the indoor bowls centre was built. And erm it was closed at staggering times throughout the summer as the light faded. Erm but that’s sort of erm facility was withdrawn after the indoor bowls centre was er built because obviously they had to leave the park open for the erm for the, the bowlers, erm I just shown Claire a picture of a, a picture that was drawn, erm and she’s got and she’s going to take a picture of that erm it was pencilled in pastels around about nineteen fifty I believe and then handed to my dad as a gift which she’s got that. Um, yes I grew up there, happy childhood went to Northwood Junior school, used to walk through the park erm and there was a little gate that is now not in the park called Fenton’s Gate. It was halfway between The Lodge and the lake and it was a cut through; you used to go across the railway, it had little gates and then out into the erm, residential area beyond that, in Park Avenue. But that’s no longer there now. So Fenton’s Gate is a little area that is no longer there. Um, and then obviously go to school. Erm secondary school I went Barking Abbey Comprehensive which was literally just at the other end of the park. Um, so, no I could see when I played hockey or whatever I played I could see the house from, from when I was at school. Um, lots of, lots of memory as said we used to spend time over the swimming pool every summer. Um, it was always open every day and that time it always used to seem as though it was sunny everyday. Um, I used to buy season ticket and spend lots, lots of afternoons after school in the in the beautiful pool as I said with two lovely fountains and a cafeteria and a freezing cold pool I might add but erm big diving boards in the middle. Erm though I think they actually took away in later years because they found the water wasn’t quite deep enough for the height of the board, yeah they did.

Did anybody had any accidents?

I don’t think anybody was seriously injured but I think it that it was erm a head of springboard and then they had a tiered diving board platform that was quiet high and I think it was too just too high for the depth of xxxx the depth has to be so much for each erm foot of height and they was quiet so they took that away and just left the springboard so that was something that was taken away. Um, years ago we used to have a lovely little xxxx putt course that we used to go on which is no longer in the park now. Um, there was a pavilion and flats er and a cafeteria that people used to congregate with their ice creams erm outside I think that’s, that’s no longer there. Um, xxxx other things in the park xxxx think off. The tennis courts used to be they were I think refurbished. Used to go and play tennis especially when it was Wimbledon. Used to have er fun times over there. Very popular when it was Wimbledon. Erm and generally just have fun in park throughout why childhood used to going skating round the park erm. In fact I learnt to ride my first bicycle without stabilisers in the park because my brother came and helped me. We stood outside The Lodge and he said “look I’m going to hold the bike, you walk along” he said “you peddle away” he said “and I’m going to be here” and I kept “are you still there Lesley”? “Yeah, oh yes, yes”. “Yes, I’m still here, yes I’m still here”. Peddling away and “oh, this is good, one day I will be able to ride this bike on my own”. And he said “are you still there”? So he said “yeah, I’m still here”. I turned around and he stayed at The Lodge, he’d let me peddle away around fifty or sixty yards [laughter] up the park on mu own. So, I don’t know how much more you want me to say at xxxx.

Um, if it’s okay, I mean I’ll go back and ask a few questions

Yeah.

If that’s okay with you.

Yeah.

Um, going to back to, to your school days, um what do you have any sort of strong memories of any teachers or incidents that happened at school or any fun times?

I’ll tell you a funny story that happened. ‘Cos, ‘cos part of dad’s job as assistant parks superintendant, under his jurisdiction came cemeteries, schools, erm and various other departments. So he had to sort of erm he was given he used to use his own car, give petrol allowance, he used to have to go and visit all the schools in, in borough and see that the workmen were working there. And I remember one day when I was in erm a class, because I, you’d probably never notice but I’ve got the most horrendous laugh. And one day in particular I, how I was in class and um someone made me laugh and just belly-laughed really loud and I got sent out of the classroom/ I wasn’t worried about that, but what I was worried about my dad was due to visit that, the quadrangle in, like xxxx modern which was a separate building and I was horrified ‘cos I was standing outside the classroom. And all of a sudden across the quadrangle was my dad came walking. But I sort of like xxxx he didn’t actually ever see me to this day I don’t even know if whether he did, he never said anything because I was horrified [laughter] you know, I sort of let the side down sort of thing but that’s just one funny incident. So, he was always erm visiting cemeteries as I say er the schools just to make people, you know he just liked things done just so, so that was one of the funny things yeah. So there was Barking Abbey Comprehensive, that was like Park Modern and Barking Abbey they merged. So, you had the site over in Sandringham Road which was Park Modern and you had the site which is just at the other end of the park which is Barking Abbey.

Okay. And what did you do when you left school?

What did I do when I left school? I actually worked in um, a company, a shipping company down in Barking next to the Brewery public house erm called Kellick Martin. It was erm a shipping brokers and I worked there I was only stay for six weeks to get some holiday money and ended up staying ten years.

Wow.

[Laughter]. Until I had my erm first child. So that is where I worked. Yes, so.

And how, how did you find that? Was it quiet handy being quite local?

Well the trouble is I’m, I’m one of these people I that sometimes I’m better if I have to travel. The nearer I seem to be to something the worse time, I was never late but I used to leave “oh I don’t have to get up very early”. My mum used to “come on, you’ve got to get up for work”. And at half past eight - I had to be in at nine - I used to roll out of bed and into work but it was quite handy but, but my dad erm, it was lovely when I grew up because on his travels in the borough my dad used to erm come and pick us up from school and we always used to have lunch in The Lodge together. My brother, my mum used to make the proper like the main dinner at lunch time. And then my dad would drop us back at school and then go of on his travels again around the borough. So that was nice, I mean to be picked up from school as well so, yeah we he used to do that in the erm the infants as well and in the senior school which was lovely really we was sort of a really nice family unit.

You mention there that you had a brother [clear throats] excuse, me, sorry.

Yeah, my brother he was older than me.

Okay.

He’s still around, he’s Lesley. After my dad.

Okay.

Lesley Taylor. Lesley, well my dad was actually Lesley Charles Taylor. My brother was Lesley Frederick Charles after his grandfather so but yeah he’s erm, he lives n Upminster, he’s married with three children so erm I don’t see so much of him as I should do really but the thing is you’ve got, your lives are busy aren’t they? You know, I mean I still work so you know he’s retired now but yeah I so I had one brother that’s all, yes so.

And how much older was he, sorry?

He’s er, he was born in nineteen fifty-one so he’s four years, just under four years.

And we talked, you mentioned your dad a little bit there but I wondered if we could go back

Yeah

And sort of talk a little bit more about your dad if that’s okay?

Of course, yeah, lovely.

Um, what was his actual job title in park?

His job title was Assistant Park Superintendent. And they obviously used to head it under local government officer.

And um before we turned the tape on we talked a little bit about how your father had gone to college to study horticulture.

Yes, right, yes.

Could do you know anything about that, could you tell us a little bit about that?

I don’t actually know too much about that. I know he was an apprentice erm and he went to college obviously to learn all the sort of Latin names of plants and general he studied horticulture. Erm, I’m not to sure actually when he went to college. He must have gone I would have thought before he went to Italy in the war because erm he was what twenty something twenty-two when the war broke so he was born in nineteen he was born in nineteen twenty-two so he would have been twenty-two then, would he when the war broke out? Nineteen forty-four was it forty-four forty-eight?

Er, it started in thirty-eight.

Thirty-eight.

Second World War no it started in nineteen thirty-nine here.

Thirty-nine, Right, okay so he was only seventeen then.

Yeah.

Um, and he did go off to Italy. So whether he did a little bit of his apprenticeship before he went off to war I’m not sure I can’t I can’t be certain but I know erm those pictures in the greenhouse were taken in nineteen forty-eight which would have made him twenty-six so which was like post-war wasn’t it ‘cos that was forty, forty-five ish wasn’t it? So erm yes and he worked in the green ‘cos the greenhouses are all gone now, aren’t they I mean he was so proud of. They used to grow all the plants for the park were grown in the greenhouses they were never used to come in from outside. They were all home grown in the greenhouses. And I remember as a little girl going into the like the greenhouse there was three big greenhouses with all the plants in and you know used to like all the tanks with the water all like steamy conditions but and er yeah so he used to that’s where he started he started actually in the greenhouse I think that’s where he’s so then he obviously worked his way up and became like Assistant Park Superintendent. So we actually shouldn’t have been in that house, because that’s was where the Superintendent now you mentioned about was it Tom, Tom Boodon?

Um, I’ve heard a Mr. Boonton mentioned.

It think it is Tom, was it Tom Boonton? Tom Boonton. He had a brother but I can’t remember his name. Um, but yes so my dad obviously then went off to college and then went off to war and then came back and worked he worked for the London Borough of Barking and Dagenham for forty plus years until he retired. He never went anywhere else. But he’s, he was a character in the borough. As you say many people have probably known my dad and spoken about him. I mean he was, he was a stickler for detail and, and horticulture just suited him because it was very precise like flowers are very precise things, aren’t they? And he was very much like that erm. I just wish I could remember more of the actual workers. But I did mention Derrick Moore, didn’t I? And er Dave Harrington where the people and Mr. Currie, T. G. Currie who has a son Paul. Um, so yeah, that’s basically it. As I say I can’t give you years and dates of the college but I know he did go off to college to learn horticulture. And was very proud of his Latin names he had for all these plant [laughter].

You mentioned before I turned the tape on that your father used to try and teach you the Latin names of the plants?

Some of them, yeah because we was, we were just very, me and my brother were just in very in awe of how in new all the names and it’s, it must have been a task and a half to learn them it was part and parcel of the, you know what you had to know. And he used to just you know we used to “oh, dad what’s, what’s the name for that”? And I think erm I can remember, I can’t even remember the name of it now but he used to tell us like the trees, all the trees. The London Plane, he had, he said “that’s the so and so, so and so” and but even on the back of one of those little things he put the Latin name on the back of the Magnolia hasn’t he?

Yeah.

On that, one of the trees on the photograph. Um, but yeah, you know he was erm, if he couldn’t do a job properly he wouldn’t bother doing it. He had to do it like meticulously right, that’s how he was, that’s the sort of man he was.

Okay. Could - if you could remember - could you describe like a typical working day for your father. Would he have to rise early or?

My dad used, my dad used to start work about nine o’clock. A typical working day of my dad was he used to use his own car be he used to get erm a petrol allowance. He used to go over to the little office over in the park which is no longer there where Dave and T.G Currie used to live, they used to have their little chinwag first of all in the morning, this was over a cup of tea. He used to drink about twenty cups of tea a day I might add.

Wow[laughter]. He’s give me a run for my money.

And erm then they’d set of um he’d set of on his travels he used to have I wish I still had one ‘cos it would have been lovely to have shown you. What he had to do ‘cos he used to get petrol allowance but he had to log all his millage in er like er carbonized book, you know you don’t have things like that now you just have like you used to have carbon copy and he used to right erm where he had been for the day so he might say erm Park Modern School and the millage then when he left there he had to write the mileages so it was a typical day for my dad was erm going round the borough erm looking at schools, making sure that the things were being done, the work was completed properly erm men were doing what they were supposed to. And as I said that included cemeteries, erm schools, erm and generally he used to keep a log of all his petrol and then obviously put in an expenses at the end of the week or month or whatever it was. But erm, yeah so he used to claim that back. So a typical day for my dad was while he was on his rounds he used to come and pick us up from school on his lunch break, he used to have his lunch from half twelve to half past one. Erm, we used to have a meal together indoors, main meal and then my dad would take us back to school then carry on in the afternoon for like looking at generally overseeing that the borough was being run properly by the workman that were doing their jobs and that was typical day really for my dad erm as I say he used to spend soem time over in the little office first. And that his day really.

So would he spend much time actually in the greenhouses then or was he mostly travelling about?

Well this the greenhouse the greenhouse work was when he was more of a erm junior I think that came after the college apprenticeship because erm in the days when he used to be in the greenhouse was before he was erm promoted if you like to sort of erm the park the Assistant Park Superintendent because erm then they used to have other people working in the greenhouse but that was where he started, that’s but no he didn’t so that in the latter years, that was in the early like post-college days he sued to his training and then he used like oversee things in, in the greenhouse. But then when he was promoted he’d, he’d had a more sort of erm like office like erm a suit job if you know er collar and tie job and then used to say go and erm go and erm oversee workers in borough but erm you know my, my dad was one of these that he didn’t mind people working and chatting but he didn’t like them standing and chatting [laughter]. He was one of those. But you know everybody, he was, you know everybody really sort of, he was erm, you know “oh, it’s Mr. Taylor, we must get on with out work” you know he was but he was likable with it if you know what I mean so people loved him because he was you know he gave you respect but he commanded respect as well, which is quite nice, isn’t it really? Yeah, so there you um yeah, that’s that.

Erm, and with, with the nursery workers would you ever see them as a child would you ever go in the greenhouses and see them or?

Um, it’s funny because I’ve must have forgotten to there was a picture actually of my mum actually in the greenhouse with one of the workers, I’ll have to try and find that. Yeah, so we could go over there, especially if my dad was erm working on something on a Saturday morning we used to perhaps go over and see him and you know if he was you know with some overtime or perhaps there was a project going on and he needed to spend a bit of time he used to go over to the office on Saturday mornings and I can remember saying “can I go into the greenhouse dad”? And erm we used to go and wonder into the greenhouse because I was fascinated by these beautiful like sort of plants and everything that was grown in there was fabulous like a little mini Kew Gardens it was wonderful really. Erm so yeah so and while just funny things you remember in the office just one of the things I do remember was this great big black type writer you know the old plonk-plonk type with a great big key you know key thing and you know it’s just oh I remember that, that’s something that stood, stood in my mind. But yeah Mr. Currie and I was quiet shy when I was little and he used to say and he a stutter Mr. Currie so erm he used like not torment me but you know used to make blush sort of thing and that’s quite nice really. But yeah so Mr. Currie, Mr. Harrington and my dad had this little office over the park.

Okay. And Mr. Currie was the Superintendent.

He was the Superintendent my dad was the Assistant Park Superintendent, yeah. But Mr. Currie, see Mr. Currie should have actually lived in the house but erm he didn’t want to live in the entrance to the hou... park because he thought it would be trouble so there was erm the council owned another erm over the back I can’t remember exactly where it was but he chose to live there so really we should have lived in the house he lived in and he should have lived in the park but he saw that there might be disturbances I think which it did but I wouldn’t have swapped it for the word I thought it was a fabulous house to live in, I wouldn’t have wanted I mean I spent twenty-one years there and to be honest I wouldn’t have wanted to live anywhere else because living in the park is wonderful I mean you can’t, you can’t beat it, can you really?

I was wondering if you could describe The Lodge when you were living there could you sort walk me through the house as it were

Yeah, of course.

If that’s okay?

Right from to back, yes?

Yes please, that be great.

So obviously you go into the little gate, the green iron gate and you go up the stairs, those, those ball things that were on the front sometimes they were loose and I can remember erm one day I played with them and knocked them and they went rolling down and my dad “what are you doing”? But no, right going through the front door you went into the big blue door, I think it is still blue, isn’t it?

I think they have painted it black now unfortunately

Oh black. Um, so they was a square hallway, erm a door on the left led you into what was our front room, erm which was a room which very rarely got used but then front rooms never did very much, did they? Lovely room with an old fireplace and lovely high ceilings and erm, yeah that was our, our best room. So that was on the left of the hallway. As you went the hallway was square and immediately the other side of the front door was the staircase that, that wasn’t just a normal straight staircase it, it sort of spiralled round and up to a landing area which was nice really and we used to play me and my brother used to play a game of climbing over the banister and without coming down the stairs we used to climb down the banister oh it was fabulous climb down the banisters and get to get the ground floor without touching the stairs it was a game we used to play which was you know I mean erm it was just fun it was fun house. So yes going up the stairs you went up and round and you came to the top of the landing which had erm an area with a front window which was like a square area with a big cupboard at the bottom and then going erm upstairs you had I think where Andy’s office is in the front, isn’t it, I think he’s got is it a pink room which was my mum and dad’s bedroom.

Oh really.

That was my mum’s and dad’s bedroom. That is where they stayed and then on the right hand side because the landing was like erm as you came to the top of the stairs you had this area on the left which was like where the big cupboard was and then it went straight up to my mum and dad’s bedroom and then it went round the corner and there as another bedroom here which was my brother’s bedroom. But years ago erm it didn’t have a bathroom upstairs it just had three bedroom because the downstairs it had a bathroom downstairs. So yeah that was little bedroom at the back. Um, now coming back downstairs again back to the sort of hallway you used to go through the door opposite the front door and it was our dining room Now that was where all the activity was we used to have an open fire and cook chestnuts and my dad I can remember toasting pork toasting the bread on the open fire er oh it was lovely and we used to things erm dead dangerous now these two like fire bars either side which was so modern in those days but terrible health hazard really [laughter] because they were not very guarded at all um but we can remember sitting by erm yeah the open coal fire with my dad used to put chestnuts on the fire and that, that was the room we sort of used to live in because it was off the kitchen area er which again was like a normal kitchen um and it had a big larder cupboard in it which was fabulous like a walk in larder cupboard it had like wholes in the door obviously to let the air out and yeah so my mum used to keep that as her pantry used to keep all her food and stuff in there and then there was erm he went through to the kitchen on the right was a back door, on the left was another doorway which was the bathroom it was downstairs bathroom and the toilet was outside which was eventually used as the coal bunker, that was the outside toilet. So they turned obviously when they built the bathroom upstairs the cupboard downstairs was just used as a junk cupboard. In fact I used to go in there and it was, it wasn’t erm I say it was a junk cupboard it was massive of things in there but my dad being my dad could turn his hand if you said to him “can you find so-and-so so-and-so” he’d go to the exact box and was it was erm a mine of lots like tools but all not just thrown in there all meticulously labelled and [coughs] so that was the old bathroom and that was erm a big walk in cupboard [coughs].

So your father actually labelled everything?

Well he was very, very meticulously as I said in his work and in his um you know [coughs]

Are you okay?

Sorry, excuse me. He used to have erm, he was, you know even his like work things he used to label everything. I’m just going to get a glass of water [coughs]. So basically the house was [coughs] so it was a three bedroom house without a bathroom originally and it was erm a bathroom was built upstairs what they did, they chopped the third bedroom which was the one erm pink room was mum and dad’s room, my brother’s room round the bend and it was erm a biggish bedroom but they chopped it in half and then made part of it the bathroom.

Okay. So you left your bedroom them?

Yes, really [laughter]. And that’s where as I said erm I lived there for twenty-one years. But once again I think this is where my love of, of the outlook ‘cos I overlooked the road going up towards the like where the garage was where the miniature railway is my bedroom overlooked that so I was so used to overlooking parkland and I think that’s why I like it now because it’s not left me, that look, that view, it’s lovely isn’t it?

Yeah, so I mean you live in a fabulous location now but I can imagine living in the park must have been amazing as well?

Oh, it was lovely, it was nice because I had a back garden on my doorstep it was the envy of all my friends really because they used to come round “cor, isn’t this lovely, I wish I lived here” [laughter].

I’m still thinking that now [laughter].

Yeah, it was a fabulous house. So much character.

Yeah.

I only wish it had been bought and, and I don’t know I suppose who, who do you get to live it now that’s the thing you, you can’t really, can you?

It’s a shame. We were talking a little bit earlier about the flower beds and the amount of work that went into them.

Oh yes.

I wondered if you could talk about that a little bit for the tape now

Yes of course

If that’s okay?

Yeah, as erm, opposite the which was the back entrance to the, to our house there’s erm a raised I think they just use it as a flower bed now but erm [laughter] every year erm the flower beds would be erm planted with rockery plants in a coat of arms or a crest of something in the borough I think Claire mentioned something about the scout movement or it was something you know somebody nominated themselves for you know erm the flower bed to be decorated in that way, and it use to take three men about a week to plant the flower bed and all the colours in the coats of arms it had to be done in and if they couldn’t find the right rockery colours all plants they use to dye them so that the actual finished product was a complete replica of a coat of arms or a crest of something that was significant in the borough and it was all sort of things that were relevant in that area, and that was done every year. A different project each year which was fabulous to look at and I don’t think anything like that is done now and it was fascinating to see it finished and as it sort of grew a little bit they had to clip it so it was close all the time it was there and it was left there for basically the rest of the summer so people, people use to come in and actually stand just to look at it because it was, it was a superb work of art, it really was.

With the maintenance on that then, like you said you would clip it to keep it to keep it sharp...

Yes because obviously the rockery plants then just keep, they grow a little bit don’t they, so yes somebody would like clip it with just, it didn’t take very long, just to keep it close so that you didn’t lose that sort of flat picture if you like because that's how the image was, it was like a flat picture. From a distance you would never think it was flowers it was beautiful, it really was.

And what about the other flower beds in the park how often would they need to be maintained?

Well they were obviously planted up, as I said, all the flowers were grown in the three greenhouses over in the park, over in the nursery and distributed amongst the park, I mean you use to have like tulip beds and obviously they needed maintenance, they needed hoeing and weeding and I must say the park was kept beautiful, the flower beds, I mean even our front garden was always planted up with bulbs and you know it was just a sea of colour, the whole of the entrance to the park was. It was stunning, I mean perhaps petunias or winter flowering pansies in the winter, just a sea of colour, you looked out of the window and you would see like yellows and purples, just all these flowerbeds. In the entrance opposite the lodge those flowerbeds were just a mass of colour, winter and summer it was beautiful, absolutely beautiful.

It sounds like your Dad and obviously his staff took a great deal of pride in their work?

Well I think my Dad because he was very meticulous he never let standards drop and that was one of the things I think everybody use to say about how high his standards were of the maintenance in the park, and it was kept beautiful, you know I took it so much for granted living there, but people use to come just to look at the, especially the crest in the raised flowerbed which was, it was lovely, it was really lovely. Something I took for granted but perhaps shouldn’t have done but it was so use to it every year, I wonder what they’re going to do this year, you know we use to discuss it and then as I say three men use to plant it all up. But it was fascinating it was like a jigsaw puzzle because it started, they use to like put like the edging in and you could see the transformation of the crest or the coat of arms suddenly like emerging and it was fabulous, really, honestly it was lovely.

It must have been quite a treat to watch as well?

Yes, yes exactly because rockery plants are quite small aren’t they and as I say you had people starting at different areas, because they had their map to work from so their colours, so it was all done to scales so you knew exactly what to plant where. Its lovely isn’t it?

The amount of detail is incredible isn’t.

Yes, yes it’s lovely, very, and a different coat of arms or crest every year, and when you look at the actual original and the finished thing it was beautiful, it was perfect you know, there wasn’t, even if you had to, all the writing, all the Latin if it had writing in Latin that was all done as well in flowers, in like little rockery plants and things, it was amazing, it really was, it was a complete replica of what was the crest or the coat of arms. You would love to have been there wouldn’t you [laugh].

I would, I’m very very jealous [laugh].

It was fantastic honestly, really lovely, you can’t believe it really, but people use to walk into the park just to stand and look at that, like what the finished product was because it was work of art it really was.

It certainly sounds like it was as well.

Because I mean the mound is still there isn’t so, I mean when you go back there you’ll be thinking of these crests...

I’ll be imagining them..

Yes, as I say every year it was a different one, they chose a different one each year to do and they had their drawing and it was, as I say all the writing was done all the Latin, you know because obviously coats of arms have lots of Latin, beautiful. Only which I had pictures of that because they were something. You know I’ve actually looked at, through my Mum and Dad’s pictures and I haven’t actually found any of those yet, whether my, you know whether I will but I’ve looked through most of them but I think it’s because we took it for granted, we lived no top of it, we didn’t perhaps take so many pictures of it because it was always there and each year it would happen so it was a mind’s eye thing rather than a picture taking thing.

Of course. I was going to ask how many gardeners do you think worked in the park?

Oh that's a good question actually...

Sorry

I really don’t know. The flowers beds, because I think obviously they use to be allocated certain areas in the park. I mean I can remember as a little girl opposite the lodge, you know the flowerbeds over the little area that's in the entrance, there’s the big flowerbeds, I can remember perhaps two or three guys working over there, but I honestly don’t know how many guys use to work in the park, I really, really don’t know to be honest.

Do you think the work was seasonal? Would more people come in at certain times of the year do you think?

I think, well as I said before as the flowerbeds were never free from flowers it was, you know in the summer they use to be, they use to choose different flowers each year to put in it, it might be busy lizzies, or anything, like summer annual flowers but then in the spring they were always planted with tulips or daffodils so you had a sea of either reds or yellows in the spring and as I say in the winter you use to have winter flowering pansies so you know it was always a hub of people you know preparing that. Obviously when it was planted for the summer it was then left, just tended to, like anybody does their garden, like hoes and weeding and stuff, but to keep it lovely you had to cut the grass, so there was always people sort of tending to, it always looked beautiful, I mean it was lovely.

I’ve heard that it was, how to word this, that the park keepers and things were quite strict about whether you could walk on the grass?

Well you couldn’t actually walk on the, because opposite the house, the lodge it was railinged off, but people use to go and lay on there and my Dad use to, he did use to go and tell them off because the main area of the park is obviously where you could lay but you weren’t allowed to go in to that raised mound area obviously but people use to go and lay behind that and have a kiss and a cuddle [laugh]. So my Dad use to sometimes leave them but in the flowerbeds a lot of people use go into that, it was like a little wrought iron fence all around it, but people use to go in there to take photographs, of like standing there and then just sit down and think they could, but it wasn’t, it was purely for a visual entrance into the park. The main bulk of the park if you wanted to lay down and have a picnic I mean you could do it there but not in the actual railinged off area you weren’t allowed to go in, that’s why it was fenced off because it was just to look at as you walked into the park.

Okay and what were the trees and things, would you often see people pruning or something?

I never actual saw pruning to be honest I never saw that, yes I never saw that. I think if a tree became dangerous it was taken out by a proper tree surgeon but obviously as I remember the trees they were very established, I think most of them were London Planes in the entrance that went up the park and so they were big established trees and as I remember the only time a couple of the trees were taken down was when we had the sever hurricanes in the eighties and I think a couple of the trees became dangerous and they had to sort of take them down as I remember, because obviously if they up rooted there were massive trunks on them, they could do serious damage to people and property so... and that was one thing my Mum use to worry about because obviously the trees were like lining the park she use to say, “Oh I hope they don’t fall on the roof of the house”, [laugh].

Do you remember anything like that ever happening?

Not actually there no, but as I say I think a couple of the trees did have to be removed, I’m not sure if it was in the entrance, I think one of them did, I think in fact from memory I think there is a big tree trunk on the entrance there on you know where the lodge, you come down and you go out into the body, the main bulk of the park, I think there was a big tree on that part that had to come down for that reason, but not generally , because the trees were so old and established they were just left to grow. I mean I suppose they did prune them or whatever but I don’t remember anything much about that.

If it’s okay with you I think we have obviously covered the plants quite well, if it’s okay with you I wonder if you can describe your experiences of going on the train or on the Phoenix, because you mentioned the Phoenix earlier

The Phoenix I can’t actually to be honest, I remember it going up and down and I vaguely remember going on it but my memory isn’t serving me very well of that paddle steamer but, yes but more so of the rowing boats and the motor boats because they use to have, they use to have a double sort of rowing boat and then they use to have single rowing boats and motor boats, and you use to go up from one end of the lake to the other, so you started of, you could go down to Loxford Lane end and then you could go right up to South Park where they had like a, part of it was roped off, they had like a kid’s section where thy had tiny little boats for like little children to go in which was very shallow so that was quite nice. Because that is quite a lengthy lake isn’t it there. So yes we use to go on the boats and as I was saying when I came down to Barking I remember one severe Christmas it was very snowy and my Dad, he was very hands on, very clever man, he use to turn his hand to anything, and he decided he would build me and my brother a sledge which he did. And once again it wasn’t just you know a silly old sledge it was a pucker sledge, it was a state of the art sledge, he didn’t do anything by halves. So I remember me and my brother wanted to test this sledge out so we, it was thick snow, wellies on we plodded over to the park, because over by the lake it’s quite hilly isn’t it if you remember, like the road way and then you go down into the lake, it’s quite a gradient, and we decided we would set off with this sledge. My brother said, “Come on Chris”, he said, “Sit on the back we’re going to go down the slope”. The one thing I remember, the lake it was so cold it had frozen over so me and my brother we came down the slope gathered speed as you know and we went straight off the path straight onto the lake [laugh] and there we sat in the middle of the lake [laugh] and it didn’t break through, we just crawled back, and that’s something I remember and we said “Don’t tell Dad, don’t tell Mum and Dad because they will be really terrified and my Dad won’t let us come over there again, yes [laugh]. Because it was quite hilly, it was like, it must still be like it, it was like a hill, it went down and then there was a little roadway and then it went down again to the pathway to the lake. So we started off at the top and went down and down and as I say we gathered speed which you do don’t you on a slippery slope and as I say we went straight off the edge onto the lake, onto like the frozen lake [laugh].

You were quite lucky really weren’t you?

Yes, [laugh] my Mum and Dad never knew about that [laugh] we never told them.

I’m just imagining how frozen the lake must have been to take the force of a sledge and your weight.

Yes it was very very cold because I remember because it was bitterly cold and the snow was thick, thick snow. I don’t know what year that was but that must have been in the sixties I would think because we use to have really severe winters didn’t we years and years ago.

I’ve heard there was a particularly bad one wasn’t there, I’m trying to think was it in the mid sixties?

This must have been when I, because I think I was only about ten I think and my brother, or was it a little bit earlier and he was, no it might have been earlier, I might have been seven and he was about ten, yes it was the sixties, I know we had a particularly severe winters and that was when my Dad built us this sledge and it was a fabulous thing, you would never get, it was all wooden and he had runners on it, fantastic thing but that's the sort of thing he did and you know he built a go cart, well it wasn’t just an old pram wheels but it was a proper go cart , it had a seat and a brake, he use to make all these things, it was amazing, he could turn his hand to anything. But meticulous detail, if he couldn’t do anything properly he wouldn’t attempt it but everything, you know the go cart it was a fabulous go cart and my Mum made like a upholster padded seat, oh it was fantastic, really amazing, it really was.

It sounds quite incredible; I was just going to ask did you have the courage to go back on the sledge?

Oh no I think we were to frightened after that, I mean we use to pull it around the park and just push each other and our friends use to play on it but I think really that was a bit of a rude awakening really because it was quite frightening to be honest because you just gathered so much speed. But it was good fun, it wasn’t the only time we did that on those, like the first and second time we use to end up on the path but this particular time we must have by this time made up an icy groove and it just gathered speed and the last time we went that's how we ended up on the lake. But the lake was lovely because it had little islands in it and all the duck life you know, ducks and moorhens, you use to go on your motorboat or your little rowing boat, and I think they named the little islands, I think they had little names I think, but I can’t remember. But yes so that was the childhood years, it was great, that was our experience with the sledge so no more.

You mentioned then about the ducks and the moorhens I’ve heard there was a particularly vicious swan on the lake can you remember anything about that?

Oh the swans on the lake I know, yes there was actually and it use to hiss and flap at you, yes there was some swans on the lake. I don’t remember too much about them but I remember they did seem quite vicious but we always use to go and feed the ducks and then when my brother’s children were young and mine were young we use to go over to my Mum’s at least once a week and then go to feed the ducks and we always use to walk down to the lake or go on the train to the lake and then walk around and feed the ducks, and there was always loads of ducks on the lake, loads, and swans yes, it was lovely wasn’t it.

It sounds like such an idyllic childhood doesn’t it.

Oh it was fabulous you know I couldn’t have swapped it for anything better I really couldn’t. It was a safe location you didn’t have to cross any roads to get to where we wanted to be and we had everything there, we had there, we had the swimming pool, we had tennis courts, pitch and put, we had a little train, we had boats, I mean what more could you want it was fabulous.

I was just going to say could you describe a typical journey on the train, is that when the train still run along the back of the lake?

It’s never run across the back of the lake.

Oh okay.

No the train has only ever run from what was my Dad’s garage which is now no longer there, so it’s the bottom of the garden and it use to go to the lake because there was a little turntable at the end and it’s still there because I looked at it funny enough a few weeks back. So no the train has never run, it’s only ever gone from the lodge to the boat house, it has never gone any further.

And then obviously it would turn on the turntable and come back down?

Well the thing is I think it was on the turntable because I think they use to put it on the turntable to put it away because it use to have a little house at that end. I think now, I don’t know, there looks like there are low buildings at the park, the lodge end, I don’t know. But years ago we use to fight for the best, because we always wanted the back carriage because, I don’t know, there was something about the back carriage. The little engine would link up, we use to get on the train and the ticket man use to give you a ticket on his little machine, I don’t know how much it was, threepence or something, 3d which would be like 1p now, or you could, was it threepence, or if you wanted a return it was fourpence or something which is like 2p. I know you gained if you bought a return ticket. So yeah we used to get on the train and we used have these little xxxx went across Fenton’s Gate because that Fenton’s Gate is no longer there now as I say halfway down they used to open the gates and used to obviously when the train was running then close the gates so it was like a public pedestrian pathway because I particularly looked for that little gate when I was in the park some weeks ago and it’s not it’s completely blocked in now with trees. And that was a little walk way that was half xxxx because that’s how I used to go to school through there and then yeah we used to get off the other end and if you were if you had your single ticket you’d pile of the other end and if you were coming back you’d stay on the train and then used to take the engine round and like bypass it and latch it to the front the train and off you’d go again down to the bottom.

Did it change much from when you were a child to the when you took your own children on it?

No, no it didn’t.

No.

No, it erm I think what happened it erm obviously the colours changed and Alec took it over in the later years I think he had all the little carriages painted again and the engine painted but it was one of these you know small engines and he used to like sit on it sort of thing rather than in it you know because it was a miniature railway, wasn’t it? Erm but no then he painted all the carriages and then because it was just a thing he just loved that aspect of the park not, you know not you know he wanted to keep that running because it was a lovely little you know thing about the park. So that’s what happened so and he never used to charge us because we lived in the park [laughter]. We lived in the lodge we used to go for free. We used to think we were wonderful. But yeah so erm but I don’t think Alec always had it I don’t know who I don’t know whether it was run originally by the park erm perhaps one of the park keepers because don’t think Alec always he never run it when I was a little girl obviously ‘cos erm I don’t know I think it was run more by the park and then when the funding ran out or they couldn’t afford it that’s when he came along in later years and used to erm fund it himself. So you know it was good because he used to run the boats and everything he used to do all the maintenance Alec did for the boats and the little train.

What kind of maintenance would he have had to do on the boats, do you know?

Erm, well I suppose really if they were they needed painting or something every you know so often so they would be erm and obviously the motor boats the engines needed servicing and stuff because the you know had a outboard motor on that needed tending to I mean and some of the erm I know it’s not a mechanical thing but erm there used to be quiet a lot of weed in the lake I think that is probably why they dredged it and, and if you had like a rudder sometimes they used to clogged up with weed you used to have to sort of de-weed the boats and things like that [laughter] obviously so they could function properly. So that sort of maintenance like that but erm like the diesel for the train I think in later years he sort of paid for that all himself. Which is dedication, isn’t it?

It’s, it’s a real generous thing to do.

Yeah, oh he was a lovely man, Alec. I’d you’d obviously when um my mum and dad moved form the park erm we used to see him while he was in the park but I don’t know he must I suppose he is still alive but I don’t know how old he would be now.

Yeah, I’ve heard he’s still around. I found his address I am planning on writing him a letter actually.

Alec, yeah because he was when my children were small erm thirty so he must have been away from that park about twenty or so he must probably he’s in his sixties now I would think Alec. But yeah if you can get hold of him I don’t know he’s surname to be honest but he

I think his surname is Everett.

Alec Everett, that’s it yes, well done.

I only know that because somebody else has told me that.

Alec Everett, that’s right. Yeah. And he would give you a wealth of information about the trains and stuff and the boats. ‘Cos I was quiet disappointed to see that the boating lake had been knocked down the boat yard and stuff. I know it was a wooden building and it probably wasn’t safe but you know all those memories there’s it was just so erm disappointing to see that wasn’t I mean I know they are doing lots of restoration work and xxxx get the park back with the lottery funding but just as I remembered it I still expect to see it as it was [laughter] and that’s silly really but it’s just how I remember it.

Could you describe your memories of the boat house if that’s okay?

The boathouse? Um, well I can remember at the bottom of the train like you got of the train and um you walked down to it was like a white sort of picket fence that bordered off um the lake path if you like um from the boating area and you had to go through the fence and buy your ticket. It was I black building I remember a black wooden building. It has a little ticket office and I think in latter years Alec’s wife used to be in the ticket office selling the tickets for the boats. Um, so yeah you used to pick your boat and it was erm it was like a ticket office but behind it was um like erm a separate sort of building where the maintenance used to go on if there was a boat that needed servicing then it would be dragged of up out the lake and servicing so it was quiet a big black timber framed building as I remember it but it was like er a think it might have been painted green in latter years but as I remember it years and years ago it was a black building I remember. But yes so it’s erm but I remember this white fence you used to have to go through this white fence course it was like fenced off from you know the actual other part of the park so you used to have to go through the little gate but I remember years erm the park was so popular on erm on a hot summer’s day you used to have to literally had to sort of snake round and queue so a boat on the park lake yeah. I can remember queuing for quiet a while when I was a little girl to go on the boat boats because they were so popular. And that’s when the old Phoenix paddle steamer was still there erm the Phoenix I don’t I don’t remember the going of that I know it was when I was a little girl but when my children there it was long gone so it was only a thing that was there um when I was a child. But er yeah lovely brown and cream it was the Phoenix I remember. Fabulous thing.

Yeah, I’ve seen pictures. But unfortunately because of the date of it none of the pictures are in colour.

No.

So obviously I wouldn’t have known what colour that was.

Brown and cream as I remember. Um, it used to go up and down but yeah so up and don the lake but that’s what I you know as said it had this little ticket office at the front you used to queue but for our tickets and behind it was like a service erm house or big like building oh not big building well mind you the thing is when you are child everything looks so much bigger, doesn’t it?

Of course.

You know like it was probably quiet a small building if I’m erm where used to where the boat were sort of serviced and stuff yeah but I can remember queuing yeah they used to have like a queuing system for the getting in the boats. Sometimes it was a long queue. You used to have to wait you know twenty minutes half an hour to get on the boat [laughter].

It does seem like quiet a long wait doesn’t it. Especially as a child it must have been quiet sort of

Yeah it’s, it shows you the popularity of the park in you know it’s heyday it was it was wonderful xxxx it had so many little attractions there people used to come as I say for the train and just for the general, general sort of appearance of the park, it’s, it’s beautiful park, it was, it was wonderful. Um, yeah, that’s how I remember the train journey yeah.

If it’s okay we just jump back to the lido you mentioned there about queues would have to sometimes queue to get into lido as well?

Yes, yes, definitely. That was queues, big queues outside for the lido erm as well. But if you had erm you know I think it if I remember if you had a season ticket I don’t know that you had to queue you just had to show your season ticket. Because obviously people queue to pay their money but I think if you had a season ticket as I remember I don’t think you had to queue. But no, you know because we used you, you know as a child we always have a fabulous erm six weeks holiday. It never seemed to rain it always used to be like hot sunny days, didn’t it? As I remember it. It’s just obviously erm it wasn’t like that but erm you used to have to queue the queue was right sort of thirty forty yards to get into swimming pool.

Could you describe erm the pool in a little more detail if that’s okay?

Yeah, yeah.

If you say like from going in

From going in you had um er like an iron turnstile erm system with a little ticket lady like little ticket office and as you went in as I remember the pool terraces were at the back you had erm two fountains either end um two shallow ends and then a deep end in the middle. So you had erm, you had a little cafeteria one side, you had the changing rooms and the lockers on like ladies one side and men’s the other. And obviously you used to come out there was erm a little foot wells to wash your feet before you got in the pool, um and as I said and all across the back was it was a stepped terrace and so it was a real sun trap and the whole of the length of the pool at the rear of the pool was a sun terrace like behind what would be so you went in here you had the two fountains, you had two shallow ends and a deep end in the middle and the diving boards were all at that side the sun terrace side. And as I said you there was changing rooms were locker rooms were men’s one side gent’s er ladies the other and a little cafeteria one side and then you used to come through there as I say little areas to wash your feet and then erm used to go and get in the pool or go up on the sun terraces which run the back of the pool so yeah.

Did you ever go on the diving boards?

I used to [coughs] I did actually I never dived off because I was only young then erm I used to jump of the springboard and I think I jumped of because it was platform board it had one and then it had it was staggered two, two tiered diving platform and it had eh I did jump of the top but it looked horrendously high when I was a kid. It probably wasn’t [coughs]. As I said I think they had a few people that not had any injuries but there was it just wasn’t deep enough for the height of the board so they took them down and just left the springboard there.

And I’ve heard that there was a slide as well.

[Coughs]. Now that rings a bell. Slide, slide, slide. I think there was but I remember much about it [coughs]. Slide, um. Was there a slide either end? I’m not sure, I can’t remember too much about that. There might have been a slide either end into the shallow end. There might have been but I can’t, can’t remember too much. I remember more about the diving area because of the depth of the water erm yes so I can’t really tell you too much about the slides, can’t really remember [coughs].

That’s absolutely fine. I was wondering though if it’s okay sorry, are you okay?

Actually I come back from Italy and I told you I had this cold and chest infection and now I’ve got this hacking cough that

Oh no. I’ll let it out afterwards, its fine. Um, I was going to say if it’s okay because obviously the fountains were so iconic I wondered if you could give me a description as you remembered them as much as you can do.

Right, as I remember them, erm they were, they weren’t small fountains they were of concrete construction quiet erm round and they just used to as I say the water used to shoot up through the middle of them but they, I think they were stone construction at either end. They were quiet ionic actually but they were quiet big, they weren’t sort of tiny little things they were quiet the diameter was quiet big erm as I remember them and yeah used to be just used to like send water up but it was you know it’s a nice little feature really.

Yeah, I’ve heard that some naughty children used to climb in them and

Yes, oh yes, yes.

And you tell me anything about that?

I don’t remember to be honest but I do know the children were quiet often erm turfed out of them, yes erm to be honest ‘cos you know they weren’t a paddling pool they were a fountain [laughter]. Um because we used to have a paddling pool in the park as well outside the lido do you

Okay, yeah I think I have heard of it but if you could tell me about it that would be great yeah if that’s okay?

Erm, outside the pool the lido coming back towards the tennis courts on the right hand side was eh was a stone paddling pool erm it was, wasn’t very deep it was like paved at the bottom as I remember and stone as you like just like as I say a big stone paddling but it was quiet big erm and had like erm a sort of area all round it where you could sit but once again I think that was I don’t even know if they dug it up or what they did in the end but erm it was sort of like it wasn’t very pretty really it was quiet concretey if you know what I mean it wasn’t it wasn’t pretty paddling pool but it you know we used to go over and it was about eighteen inches deep I suppose but it was quiet big, it must have been twenty foot by ten something like that it was quiet perhaps even bigger. It was quiet a big paddling pool to be honest. Maybe more than perhaps thirty foot long it was like a little mini swimming pool really but it was stone I remember it being like concrete. So yeah, that’s how I remember that. Um.

Did you ever use that at all?

Erm, sometimes yeah but then I think we used to go more over for the pool as they got older erm and I think by the time my children ere old enough to use the paddling pool I think it gone I don’t think out children ever used it. Well my children never used it because it was I think it needed a lot of erm cleaning it took a lot to clean it really I think ‘cos erm as I said it was a concrete and stone construction. But yeah, that’s um what else can I tell you about the park [laughjter].

Erm, I’m just trying to think actually because obviously your memories are so good about it. I was wondering in terms of oh actually there was one other thing I would like to ask if that’s okay. You mentioned that Derek lived above the Pavilion

Yes

I wondered if you could tell me a little about Derek and why he lived above the Pavilion or anything like that.

Um, well um when Derek erm him and his wife Patricia er they came from Manchester they lived in Manchester and he, he got a posting down in erm like London Borough of Barking erm with the parks and I think he lived in the Pavilion flat until he could arrange housing . So he lived above the pavilion flat which was a nice flat. It was quiet roomy I remember going over there a couple of times erm and he lived in the flat above the er Pavilion erm I don’t know how many years he lived there but then he moved on to Willesden er and got a job over at Willesden I believe and then he as I say he left erm there and went to work for Redbridge and that’s where he lived I think he might still be in Redbridge now. But the Pavilion falt I don’t know how many years ago but it burnt down it had caught fire.

You’re joking.

The flat above and that was a quiet a sort of sad sort of sight.

Do you know anything about that? Can you tell me any more details?

I can’t really remember too much. I just remember that I think it wasn’t nobody was living there I think I don’t know if it was set on fire or I’m not sure but I know erm the flat above was set alight. And I think shortly after that, that’s when they decided to knock that down I think. Because it was never restored the flat above as I remember it wasn’t restored and then the cafeteria down below was just obviously closed up and erm I think in latter years they, they knocked it down. But years, I know I can’t remember dates or years or anything on that.

No problem. The cafe that was underneath it do you remember that ever being open or was it all

Yeah, yeah, oh yeah.

Oh right, okay,

I used to we used to buy ice-creams. Lyons-made ice-cream.

Oh right, okay.

Erm, yeah they had like um a seating area outside because it’s eh like had a concrete sort of frontage if you like or a tarmac frontage and there were table and chairs out there. Used to sit and have your ice-cream erm and I think you get sort of snacks erm like chips and things erm but we never used to do that because obviously living were I lived we didn’t have to eat over there because I used to just go back home. But yeah so it erm as I remember just eh like a lot of glass windows on the front and all the doors used to open so you could open it right up the cafeteria and as I say used to sell ice-creams one end. I know there was like a little seating area the other were you could sit and have something to eat.

What was the actual structure of it was it quiet a nice looking building?

Not particularly if I am honest.

No.

No, it was erm, it was cream like square panes of glass and cream doors and they were like erm like patio doors if you like or French doors if you like it was that sort of building but it wasn’t it was run by somebody independent it wasn’t run by the park I don’t think and I, I don’t think it was kept up to the standard of other things in the park really. It wasn’t, it wasn’t erm the cleanest of places as I remember as a child I used to think it looked a bit scruffy.

Okay.

That’s the appearance but we still bought our ice-cream there and then used to walk along eating our ice cream and that’s where you’re saying about the erm the competition with xxxx Pauline’s dad used to have the sweet shop and that’s what he means the competition with the, the ice-cream people in the park because people used to then buy their ice-cream sometimes and go into the park and then find the pavilion over, over there the cafeteria.

Okay. Did you ever buy ice-cream from Howls’ or sweets or

Oh yes, all the time.

Yeah [laughter].

‘cos he used to have er, the sweetshop next door it used to have erm the main door like was on the slant and then he used to have a window right on the front and it was there ice-cream window. He sued to sell ice-cream, fresh ice-cream, from you know it wasn’t just like lollies and things he used to like I don’t know whether they used to make it on the premises, I think they sis, sis they make it yeah that’s right. And they used to have these big tubs of ice-cream and they used to like you’d right at this window and somebody used to serve you sometimes I think Pauline worked there and Sid I think her name was his name was Sid, wasn’t it?

Sid Xxxxx that’s his name yeah.

Yeah, me god, that’s going back a long time [laughter].

Do you remember him at all?

Yes, yeah I couldn’t pick his but I remember him and I remember his erm his wife I don’t know her name. But I remember Pauline. Sid Howl. I can remember her face very I remember curly haired lady with glasses. She used to sit in the shop a lot. Um, yeah I used to go in there and buy my it’s funny how you remember things. How it has come back like I said the ice-cream from the ice-cream tubs erm I think it was made out the back on the premises wasn’t it?

Well, apparently they used to have this um parlour which was all concrete so it was really cold down there.

That’s right and that’s through the back, that’s right.

And actually during the war they actually used that room for their shelter as well because it was all concrete

That’s right.

So it was quiet safe.

Because I used to as I remember these um steel tubs are tubs of ice cream used to fit into these slots like round circular tub things in, in this like a refrigerated cabinet. As I was saying they used to open up this window and serve the ice-cream from this hatch which as I remember yeah lovely ice-cream like a Cornishy sort of ice cream that was lovely. But I remember going into the shop and it’s really weird because I can remember buying lucky numbers. There was sweets called lucky numbers. And they were just like erm it was a bit like a Quality Street type of selection but they were just had different centres in them but they were called Lucky Numbers. And he’s the only shop I knew that ever sold them.

Oh, okay.

But that’s eh, that’s going back a long Howls’ the sweetshop oh Pauline how old is she now?

Oh crikey, um, I think she was born in nineteen thirty I want to say nineteen thirty-nine um but obviously she remembers the park during war times as well so

Yeah, that’s brilliant, isn’t it? See I was obviously born fifty-five so I was all but yeah her mum and dad. Because they used to live in Cranleigh Gardens.

Um, she, she actually still lives in Cranleigh Gardens.

Does she really?

She lives in her parents’ old house

Oh my goodness

Because they retires and moved there

That’s right, yeah.

Um, so yeah, she still lives in the same place.

Wow.

Yeah.

Cranleigh Garden’s. Because it is just opposite the park, just tucked round the corner.

Yes, yes.

I think I went there once or twice I think as a child for whatever reason I don’t know. But yes Sid Howl yeah, crikey because that turned into vets in the end Goddard’s bought it, didn’t they? And I actually worked in the vets.

Oh did you?

Yeah. At that time I was allergic to I am not allergic to them now but I was allergic to cats and dogs and I had to give up my little job there.

Oh, that’s a shame.

[Laughter]. Yeah, I liked it was good but Howls’ sweetshop yeah it was um it did have like erm I beautiful stone floor as I remember as you went in. It was like black and white sort of like almost like a marble sort of stone floor. Yeah, Howls’ sweetshop crikey that is going back. Yeah, oh Pauline my goodness me yeah because she lived I remember she lived with her mum and dad when they were alive and then obviously I didn’t know the going of them but I did know they loved in Cranleigh Gardens. Yeah so that was yeah they did have a bit of competition with the cafeteria.

I know it um probably one of those questions you are not going to know the answer to but I was wondering if you do you know who was cheaper? Was it a completion or was it just that Howls’ was better?

Erm I think as I remember Howls’ used to be very popular for their ice-cream cones because erm it was like the freshly made ice-cream I think the Pavilion and the Cafeteria was more like a lolly based Lyons made type of thing.

Right.

So there wasn’t really the erm the price thing it wasn’t really a question of price it was just like choice because the ice cream from Howls’ so lovely ‘cos you, you know and I don’t know whether they sold fresh ice-cream over the I think it was more like Lyon’s made selections sort of thing.

Right, okay.

Yeah so, but Howls’ crikey that was used to go there sort of a lot it was next door. You didn’t even have to cross any roads or anything.

No, probably could have just knocked on the door xxxx knocked on the wall couldn’t you?

That’s right. But it was lovely because it was like one of the I remember as they all were all the jars of sweets well you only get like specialized shops doing jars of sweets now they used to weigh all the sweets but that’s they’re all gone aren’t they.

It’s quiet funny because Pauline’s still got a set of the old scale.

Oh fabulous aren’t they? To weight the sweets. It’s marvellous oh it’s lovely I love those sort you know sometimes there’s erm I thinks there’s some oh I don’ know some sweetshops that now still do the old sweets but I just love the old two ounces of this and two ounces of that. Um, but no Howls’ yeah that was they were there for a long time though.

Yeah, I think, I think, I think they bought the shop obviously just before Pauline was born because she was actually born in the house.

Yeah.

Um and I can’t remember if she said they finished I should imagine it probably would have been the seventies or eighties I should imagine.

Yeah, I think it was before the seventies.

So was it? Okay.

Um, because oh seventies, I know my son was born in eighty-one and that was a vets then so it would have might have been sixties something they, they went from there so it was sad though really it was nice having a sweetshop. I mean what more could I want? I lived in the park and I had a sweetshop next door it was heaven, wasn’t it? [Laughter].

I’m amazed you ever left [laughter].

Well I stayed there twenty-one years until I moved and then erm and got married and sort of moved in like a different area but always went back to the par. I mean mum and dad was it was just it still my house even though I had left home [laughter].

Even though they made your bedroom the bathroom? [Laughter].

Oh yeah, they cut half well actually I think that was done er before I came along obviously um it was done I think it might have even been done bore my mum and dad moved in there. Because they moved in there in fifty-two, I was born in fifty-five but I think erm it must have been done before my dad moved in there because that, that wasn’t done I’m sure that wasn’t done before erm before it wasn’t done after my dad went in there, It was done before.

And I was going to say comparing your childhood with obviously taking your own children down there, what was it like taking them to the park? Did you find that you would want them to do the things that you had done or?

[Coughs]. Well we used to do as I say we used to do the things like the train we used to take them on the train and we used to take them on the boats. Swimming pool was obviously gone. Paddling pool was gone. Um pitch and putt was still there then we used to take the kids when they were older on the pitch and putt.

Where abouts was the pitch and putt? Do you remember?

The pitch and putt if you if you came back from erm walking towards the tennis courts from [coughs] the swimming pool the pitch and putt was directly you know you got erm a roadway that goes down to Central Gate you know like coming back from erm coming back from the swimming pool round here and the tennis courts were here weren’t they on like three or four tennis courts and the pitch and putt ‘cos there was a little roadway that divided the tennis courts up now like an open field. The pitch and putt was on that corner.

Ah, okay.

So it was an eighteen court eighteen hole pitch and putt course.

Was it like erm

A putting, putting course.

Oh right okay.

It wasn’t er pitch and putt actually it was a putting green. That’s right. Pitch and putt was over in central park. But erm so it, it was it is gone but you can actually see where the fencing was

Oh can you?

If you look carefully. I can you know obviously because I remember it. But so when my children were older we used to go and play pitch and putt now that was my son’s thirty in xxxx oh Monday so twenty, twenty years ago so that putting course putting green is still in existence in the eighties.

Okay. So it wasn’t like crazy golf it was

No, no it was all grass.

Okay.

It was erm with erm sort of proper greens and proper flag poles and everything. No, it wasn’t erm crazy golf it was proper putting green.

Okay

So it was good it was the kids like it because er yeah we used to go over there and had a little hut in the corner where you could hire all the golf and like the little putting clubs and stuff and you had to put an deposit one which seemed astronomical but you got it back at the end [laughter]. But that’s as I say that’s gone now but erm the tennis courts I think they did the tennis courts up as I remember some of them where erm a little bit rough some where better than others I think they have done them up I think in the latter years they looked quiet decent when I was last over the park. Erm yes so we had the big memorial on you've got the picture of and I think what they did with that erm because the erosion took away all the lettering I think they got I don’t know if they got sponsorship from somewhere to erm have all the names on the memorial done in gold leaf so I think that was erm restored to it’s former glory because I mean you know you could read the names but you know obviously the, the sort of rain and the erosion it takes it away doesn’t it so I think they I don’t know where they got the funding from but that I remember that was put back and it was beautiful ‘cos this big you know xxxx the picture there you’ve got the big memorial and all the names are the people that fell in the war were all like named on this memorial. It was beautiful thing, beautiful thing.

What would you say was your most enduring memory of the park is, the thing that always as soon as someone says Barking Park to you what is the first thing

I think it is the train, it has got to be the train. Because I it was just so different to anything that any other park had I mean erm yeah the train and just and as I say the swing the playground we used to love the playground erm and just generally yeah the train I think if somebody says to me Barking Park it’s train I think of the train immediately. ‘Cos it was such a it was so different to anything any other, no other park had a train, did it? It was that’s the memory I think. And to be honest I think these erm coats in the arms in the flower beds because they were very unique as I say that was something I will remember and I wont ever forget that.

There’s just something that I forgot to ask earlier, if it’s okay. In terms of erm uniforms and things like that did the park keeper’s were uniforms? Did your father wear a uniform?

My dad didn’t wear a uniform you know when he was on his when he was promoted he obviously wore a suit a to work and my dad always wore a tie funny enough even when he was relaxing he sometimes wore a tie I don’t know why.

Men knew how to dress then [laughter].

I think they did, they did though, didn’t they? Um, but obviously the park keepers and the workers who tended the flower beds just wore like overalls for work erm they used there was no specific uniform. I think it might have had perhaps London Borough of Barking like on it writing wise but there was nothing no specific just like overalls really to work in.

Other people have told me that erm actually it is probably a bit before bit before your time that they used to wear sort of peaked caps and capes and things [laughter]. Maybe that’s much earlier.

Maybe.

Yeah.

Erm, I think well I think the park keepers used that, that’s that is correct actually I think even now thinking back they used to like the workers like the park keepers tended like erm like the putting green erm and the tennis courts because they weren’t like working on the land if you like the parking attendants like the park keeping attendants I think they did wear peak caps actually. Now you’ve said that. I was thinking more of the people that attended the flower beds.

Oh right, okay.

But the actual park keepers, yes, they did they used to wear like erm a think it more or less like a black jacket I think.

Okay.

Um and they did wear peak caps, you’re right. It’s even testing my memory now [laughter].

Yeah, I don’t know for sure I only know what other people have said.

Yeah but now you have said that, yes they did. But I was thinking more like the workers obviously there was overalls but no the park keepers as such like the flower bed the gardeners - that’s the word I am looking for. The gardeners used to wear their overalls but the park keepers they did used to wear peak caps you’re right. They did. Yeah, and like a black buttoned uniform as I rem.. or a jacket as I remember. Not like a suit but like a working jacket if you like with a yeah they did that’s right. Somebody you told that’s absolutely right [laughter. She you forget things don’t you? Minor sort of details. Yeah they did.

I also heard they used to cycle around the park when they did their patrols. Do you ever remember park keepers on bikes?

They did yeah. Oh yeah park keepers on bikes that right. That’s where we used to get found out if we were picking the conkers [laughter]. When we shouldn’t have bee.

Could you tell me about that is that’s okay?

Yeah well I just remember that erm, erm we used to go there with our friends and erm just used to go certain times of the years it’s about now isn’t I think October time the conkers and erm we used to throw the ball up to try and knock the conkers down of the trees or if, if they were branches the boys used to go and climb up and then that is absolutely right sometimes “it’s a parky” we used to call them parkies [laughter].

Oh right, okay.

“It’s a parky coming, quick, quick, quick”. On the bike yes. And they used to patrol like ride around the park on the bike yeah that is right that is absolutely right. Because we used to scarper when [laughter] when we xxxx when parky was coming. Parky, why we used to call them parky? Yes, so on their bikes yes.

Because your father worked there were you ever more conscious that you had to be good?

Yes. Absolutely. I never wanted to get caught out because I was always going to be but I to be honest I mean I am making myself sound like I was little wretch but I wasn’t really. I mean I was a good, good, good little girl really. Just er yeah we just used to think it was adventurous to knock the conkers of the tree but you know it was mild in comparison to what they get up to know isn’t it [laughter]. Erm yeah, that’s right so I can remember erm me and my brother used to collect the conkers because obviously

Okay

We used to go over the park and I remember you know they fall of in their shells, don’ they and we used erm obviously de-shell them and I remember my brother used to have funny enough a sweet jar probably from Howl’s and he used to have a jar full of conkers from the trees in the park but yes they used to go round on their bikes and they used have their little bell on the bike and if you know they ring their bell if they erm thought somebody was up to something, yeah. Yeah, they did that’s right on the bike. Erm what else can I remember about the park. There’s so many things probably that I can’t remember but er but obviously

You’ve got an amazing memory, I’m getting loads here [laughter].

Erm anything you

Um, I was going to ask about the bandstand. I am not sure if there was still using it to the extent they would have in the early years but I am wondering if you can remember

The bandstand I think was the bandstand was I think they used to have music from the bandstand when I was very little but I don’t remember anything much about it and it seemed as though it died out very erm very quickly and then obviously when the out or the indoor bowls centre was built and my dad was horrified about that building because it just looked like a box dropped in the park because it was all sort of beautiful buildings as I said about the black boathouse and even the bowling green with that like the little picture there with like the colonial type house you had in the erm the clubhouse there. And they knocked the bandstand down to make a car park for the bowls club which as a absolute travesty. You can imagine, can’t you?

Yeah. I think that has caused a lot of commentary.

My dad was horrified about it, it was just to knock this I mean I’m mean we’ve got a picture of it actually there. I mean to knock that down to make like a sort of gated round area car park and it, it just seem right you those sort of building should have been preserved really and that should have even know should be have been there in some ways shouldn’t it I think. Because it is part of the heritage of the park it’s you know it was part of it but my dad wasn’t very happy. In fact to honest he wasn’t very happy about the, the indoor bowls club being built there anyway because it just, it just too something away from the look of the park. I was so old and colonial in lots of ways and then it had this big like corrugated prefabricated building that just gets covered in graffiti even now just dropped behind the outdoor rinks. I just never seemed right and then obviously erm my dad said the park would never be locked up because it was erm open an they had keys to lock the gates so the last bowler that could be in to the eleven, eleven thirty they used to have to lock it up but you know nothing nicer than having the park closed up by the park keeper. Yeah on his bike he used go up with his bicycle. It was lock the park and then erm later on as I say Jock used to come in with dog and patrol the park with his dog but used to always come in for a cup of tea first.

Oh [laughter]. So how late would Jock work then?

Erm well bearing in mind the park erm used to open they it used close at it used to be staggered closing time. So obviously it was later in the summer because obviously the day light as the days got longer the park stayed open later you know for daylight hours but as soon as hit dusk or you know and so the park would be closed I think in height of summer about ten o’clock, just after ten and then very soon after that Jock would come erm with his van with his I just remember the van with the grill at the back for the dog to be kept in [laughter]. And, used to come in to the park erm and as I said my dad got to know him very well and he used to as I say come in for a cup of tea but see that’s erm and then obviously do his patrol and then off he’d go and if he didn’t find anybody then obviously that was fine. But erm as say latter stages people used to get locked in the park after the dog patrols was stopped when the indoor bowls centre was built because people used to come into come into the park even later one at night and if a bowler was the last one they didn’t know perhaps people were in park and then it was locked up and then people couldn’t get out of the park. [Laughter]. So you know they used to knock you know “can you let us out Parky we are stuck” [laughter]. Oh my dad’d say used to say “I am not a park keeper but I will let you out but you must, you know you must look at the times on the gate it does tell you when the park is closing”. When the park was that was before people used to still locked in park when it was erm had the dog patrols erm in between Jock and people erm like park being locked and then people would get locked in the park. But they used to get locked in more frequently when the bowls centre was there because as I say people just used to come in and then they found they couldn’t get out anywhere and then my dad let many, many a person out of the park about eleven o’clock at night or whatever. Sometimes he was even in bed and had to get up. He didn’t have to do it but he always he moaned little bit because they didn’t want them to think was just a thing that they could get away with but he did always let them out [laughter].

They didn’t have to camp under the bench or anything.

Well no, that’s right it’s and it was invariably they were in car parks or something it was funny being locked in the park. But yeah so that happened quiet frequently really to be honest. But I think that is one of the reasons why the superintendant didn’t want to live house because with that house as beautiful as it was came those sort of problems but yeah so erm but no nobody would that the bowls indoor bowls centre has caused quiet a many a argument I think down the years as whether it should have been built there or not to be honest. And I don’t think it should have I think the park should have been left as it was. I’m not against indoor bowls but I don’t think it should have been built in the park I think it should have been built found somewhere else wherever it is but there you go that’s just, that’s just my opinion. I think I sort of followed my dad a bit on that one I did agree because it did you know it wasn’t very aesthetically pleasing on the eye ‘cos it was just like a monstrosity like box sitting there wasn’t it so.

When you think about how meticulous your father was about making everything look good xxxx I should imagine

Absolutely and then ‘cos you know you used to get the graffiti from kids from the kids used to graffiti the walls because you know a big great expanse of wall or whatever “ooh, lets just draw something on here” you know that’s something that happened.

If it’s okay with you there is just one more thing that I would like to ask about

Yeah, of course anything

If that’s okay? Um, and that’s the carnivals and fairs.

Oh the carnivals and fairs.

Yeah.

Yeah. Right, the fair it used to be Holland’s Fair used to come in every September. Erm for ten days I believe they used to erm some of them used quiet sneak a little bit before because they used to love being in the park because it was a lovely setting erm once again my dad didn’t like the fair [laughter].

Could you tell me why if that is okay?

I tell you why he didn’t like the fair. Because erm my dad as I said he loved things meticulous he loved greenery he loved lawns he loved erm a nice you know as I say the lawn being the park being green and when they used to come in erm they used to park in there and start building all there erm the fair parts of the fair and it used to go right up to Fenton’s er used go up to the middle gate. It was the whole of the first field if you like. Used to be a funfair. Um invariably we used to get just dreadful weather in September and by the time they left the field the last one where the stalls and the stands had stood there was erm the grass was like lime green and the walkways were like mud baths so you know from having a lovely green area outside to look out for you know for a few weeks after the grass was it was just like a mud heap. It was just and ‘cos that didn’t please my dad looking at something that should be green where the stalls were stood was like the colour of that bag because the grass didn’t have no light there. And then the walkways as I said it was just like just like mud, mud bath so that took you know that used to upset my dad that the park he felt had been abused in that way and you that’s as said ‘cos he was a stickler for things to be right he didn’t like the aftermath of how the park looked after they left. I mean they used to clear up and everything and then erm and they put erm because obviously bring droves of people into the park it was very popular this funfair and they used to have put like a chestnut fence all outside our house like and the entrance both sides so that nobody would get into the flower beds or would get into our house, even my dad’s garage was all erm like erm a chestnut fencing all across it and he used to have these little door he used to have to open up to get into his garage just so that they erm they couldn’t get into like the garden because you know people when you’ve got droves of people and they get excited they tend to do silly things like climbing fences and you know that’s what they did they used to have to put all this chestnut fence so it was quiet expensive to actually sort of mount like maintain that really for the time of the park er the fair erm but then he was always pleased when it went and the grass started to grow back again but and it was Holland’s fair it used to be a yearly thing. Every September. But I loved it [laughter]. I mean I was kid you know I, I know he’d moan at the park I had a park you know I had funfair on you know every September for ten days I had a funfair in my back yard so I liked it but my dad didn’t really like it. Only because of what it did to the ground that was the only thing he wasn’t against funfairs per se it was just what the damage did to the filed afterwards because you know driving over a muddy like, a bit like erm what’s the festival they have down in

Oh, Glastonbury or something

Yeah, you imagine [laughter] like having a lovely field of green and then it looks a bit like that when it is finished so.

How long would it take them to get it back to erm

Well, erm, well you just obviously would leave it I mean grass to be honest does rally quiet quickly because you know what came from September was like the autumn sort of rains and sort of it would rally quiet quickly I don’t think they ever had to re-turf it or anything but it just didn’t look very nice for the, the next couple of months until it sort of grew back but yeah that’s just thing how my dad just likes he didn’t like things being used for different reasons. I think he liked the park just to stay as a park. I mean he was a bit old fashioned in that way I suppose but yeah and the carnival, yeah the Barking carnival. Um, they used to er I think the park’s department used to have a float because all the floats there used to be about procession of about thirty floats I think and er we used to sit on the, the balustrading in the porch area of the lodge and had like a bird’s eye view ‘cos people used to be like six or seven deep along Longbridge Road it used go and it used to meander all the way up to Mayesbrook I think Mayesbrook Park and I think Barking and Dagenham they used to have all the named floats there was like advertisements in local like shop keepers used to have a float but I know that erm Barking and Dagenham like the park’s department used to have a float and they use to have a carnival queen.

Okay.

Sitting ah she was chosen and she would sit on the sit on the float on her little throne and you know it was all bedecked with flowers and stuff so that was quiet nice I don’t know how they chose the carnival queen I’ve no idea [laughter]. I suppose it was done something before carnival. And the carnival was always in September when the fair was on because people used to go to the carnival it was on a Saturday in September and then go over to the funfair afterwards.

Okay.

So it was every September the session. But yeah that was something that was you know you used to look forward to that as a kid I used to love carnival day we used to have marching bands and, and like I don’t know like the sea cadets and then you’d have all erm all different sort of processions of different erm xxxx had scouts or just different sort of things you used to have like marching bands and so you know the floats and used to have local shops used to do their little advertising of their float but it was all fun things it was all very colourful and once again I haven’t got any picture of that really because it I think because it happened every year I never used to take any picture of it silly isn’t it?

Of course.

[Coughs]. Um, yes so that was very September. Um, I think it used to start down at Barking Town Hall somewhere down there and make its way down Longbridge Road, over what was Barking station and come down past the lodge and go up and I think it used to finish in Mayesbrook Park

Okay.

Which is just er past erm like in Longbridge Road further along and that’s how the procession used to go.

Did your erm father or staff have to provide any of the flowers for the floats?

Yeah, they used as I said they used to have erm, erm er like a trailer of float they used to call them float and they had to erm sort of bedeck it with flowers and make it look as colourful as possible because I think [coughs] a lot of the, the other erm er I think I don’t whether Redbridge I think a lot of the boroughs entered a float into the erm the Barking carnival because they used to sort we used to always think I wonder which one is going to be best this year you know and it was always as I say bedecked with flowers and you used to have the carnival queen sitting on her chair with her yeah with her sort of tiara on it was funny when you think about it now I thought how strange it was really. Yeah, carnival queen she used to sit on her sort of as I say this bedecked flower throne and that was yeah, that was lovely really wasn’t it? Like fairytale I suppose.

Um, someone I interviewed actually donated erm a couple of fabulous photos of the Dagenham Girl Pipers performing at the bandstand in Barking.

Oh, there you go, yes I knew there was music there, yeah.

That was part of Barking Carnival and also the crowning of the carnival queen would apparently happen at eh bandstand in Barking Park as well.

Ah.

I am wondering if that was probably before your time?

The thing is as I said to you I knew they had erm a carnival queen and I didn’t know how they, they chose it but obviously they must have done it over in the bandstand and choose the queen and then she would obviously sit on the throne of this float and then travel with the procession but I didn’t know how they chose her but now you’ve enlightened me that’s good in affect

Well, I don’t know if that is how they choose her but I just xxxx this photo of them sort of putting this crown on this young, I think about thirteen or fourteen and she very proud obviously but

Yeah, lovely, isn’t it.

Yeah, it was really, really nice.

Yeah that’s xxxx but we always used to have a carnival queen. Always. Never, never didn’t have Barking had didn’t ever have not have a carnival queen every year we used to have one, yeah.

And going back to Holland’s fair did you ever meet Tommy Holland or

Yes, because he’s erm yes because obviously he used to have erm you know behind the raised mound where I told you they used to have all the crests flowers, Tommy Holland used to have his caravan just behind there in the same pitch every year and Tommy Holland I think he’s father was Tommy Holland see my dad knew his father as well.

Oh, okay.

Um.

So it’s the younger Tommy Holland that you knew?

I knew the younger one.

Oh, okay.

His father was erm I think a round when I as a very young girl bit I think he died erm and then obviously his son took over the funfair but my dad knew him very well. I mean you know you used to sort erm in fact I think he used to because he was in the park he used to we used I think I think I’ve got this right he used to let us go over and say “oh look here’s some tokens use them”

Oh okay

“In the fair” because obviously we lived in the park. So me and my brother used to have some tokens to use on free rides and things. Erm they used to have but he as always in the same pitch, always that like little spot behind the mound like behind that raised flower bed yeah so erm but they used to love coming into Barking park because it was you know it’s it wasn’t just like erm it was a nice site and what better as I say a lovely park to live in for ten days these travelling people it was a nice spot wasn’t it for them.

It could be a lot worse, couldn’t it? [Laughter].

Absolutely.

I wouldn’t mind I would bring a tent round at the weekend [laughter]. Um Andy was saying they found a bench in the xxxx they moved the benches because they refurbishing a lot of the park and they found one bench which was a memorial to Tommy Holland. Now he didn’t realise that was to Tommy Holland that run the fair did you know anything about that and memorial bench for Tommy Holland?

No, I don’t know anything about that.

Okay, no worries.

No, no, I don’t. That must have been donated perhaps by the Rotary Club because there used to be is the Rotary Club of Barking I think.

I’m not sure.

I don’t know, I don’t know anything about a bench to Tommy Holland.

Okay.

But there were various benches dotted around the park that were dedicated to various people because I think in Barking was there the mayor or Mayor of Barking was it somebody Boar somebody Ball I think have you heard come across that, no.

I haven’t, no. But I mean it’s not to say that that’s not

No, and I think there was various benches that were xxxx donated around the park by various people for sort of prominent figures in the borough. Because at one time obviously before the bowls the indoor bowls club erm came about erm people weren’t really allowed to drive into the park it was you know as my dad said the park is for pedestrians and you know there shouldn’t be cars in there but obviously when the indoor bowls centre was build erm which I think another things that horrified my dad he was a stickler for old fashioned things I think erm because the cars were allowed to drive in around to the car park where I said it was then suddenly you had lines down like white lines that whitened in the sort of drive but obviously they had to stick between these and even my dad said “ it doesn’t look right does it a park with white lines going down” like the main sort of area to the so I think there was these little things that used to niggling him about it be honest. He said “ the park should be for pedestrians and it should be safe and they shouldn’t have to worry about vehicles”.

That is a fair point, I think.

I think it is actually, yeah.

I interviewed someone who is married to someone who goes to the bowls club and it’s quite its quiet funny to hear the contrast between what they say and what a lot of other people I have interviewed have said. Because they really like that you can drive into the park because they’re like well a lot of people that come to bowls are quite elderly and you know they can’t walk very far so it was quiet nice they can just sort of drive in the park and then everyone else is kind of no, we don’t [laughter] think cars should be allowed in the park at all.

No, my dad didn’t like it, he didn’t like it and as I said when these lines were drawn white lines down the from the main gates down to like where the bowls club car park was erm because there is a new car park now they’ve done away with one of the outdoor xxxx haven’t they now there is a different car park. Well that never existed then it was just two rinks of outdoor bowling and the car park was round where the bandstand was they had to drive all the way round to the back of bowls club and then park in that circular area where the bandstand was so you imagine these white lines ere put in right the way round erm and it just my dad just said “oh, it doesn’t seem right to have white lines in a park” you know in a park you know [laughter]. But yeah I it’s I think the bowlers were al for it and as you say you are going to get contrasting interviews because there are people that were bowlers and loved it and people that play bowls and like my dad and erm well he did play on holiday but not over the park but who thought a park should b just for people to walk around in and enjoy and not have to worry about being mowed down erm I think I think actually going back xxxx I actually I think somebody was knocked down in the park.

Oh crikey, really?

Years and I only I think it was only ever once but I think a little kiddie was knocked he wasn’t seriously hurt but erm and that sort emphasised to my dad why he didn’t you know that’s what he was saying. It should be that kids or parents should have to worry about their eh their children running around but I’m sure er a child was knocked down by a car in the park.

Do you know if that child was okay?

Yeah, it was, it wasn’t, it wasn’t, it wasn’t a serious injury or anything but it, it is something that as my dad said it shouldn’t, it shouldn’t have happened because the vehicles shouldn’t have ever been in there. I think it was the only incident but do I recall something and that’s going back quiet a while when the bowls club was you know it was built.

Ok.

Anything else?

That’s fantastic. Um, I was just going to say, um, is, is there anything that you would like to add, that um, anything about you know, your life, or your family, or, because we do like to do like a you know, full life history so if there’s anything you’d like to add about...?

Um, well I er...

Or the park, if you can think of any other funny stories or...

Um, well as I said about the sledge, that was one thing, and the conkers we used to um, get down. Um, yeah, I don’t think there’s anything, it was just, it was just happy times really. I just um, I just think it was just happy times, I mean um, my mum and dad lived there for goodness me, forty eight years. Um, and I, you know, I used to obviously visit them when I moved away, but um, and my children were grown up, my, with the park and used to go to nanny and grand-dad’s house and, and the train. And it was just full of happy memories really, as I say, I couldn’t have wished for a happier childhood because it was just perfect, I mean um, yes, um, no we had a very sort of, stable upbringing, because of those, for those reasons really. Um, but no, it was lovely we were very, very happy there and, um, I mean as my, because my dad when he retired he, he stayed on in the house. Um, because he retired, he retired early my dad, he retired when he was about sixty I think, sixty two. Which would have been, oh, how old would he have, sixty two, so that would have been yeah, he retired in the late eighties (1980’s) I think. And he stayed in the house until two thousand (2000). Um, and then obviously the house became too, you know, got a little bit too much for them actually, to be honest. Because it was a house that, the windows were very difficult to, like, even this landing window, it’s over, over a banister, so you had to sort of balance on something over.

Crikey.

It was quite a, and course my mum used to have do all these things, and I think in the end that [coughs], they realised that the house was you know, it was too big for two people to live in. And then they eventually were re-housed in a little um, bungalow in Moss Road. Which was very nice actually, it was like a purpose built and they lived there, um, well actually my mum died in two thousand and two (2002). [coughs]. My dad died in two thousand and six (2006). Or two thousand and five (2005) should I say. Um, yes so it’s um, but they, they loved the house, I mean they, it was a beautiful house.

Hmmm.

[coughs]. I think various things were, they wanted to do various things to the house like when the windows needed replacing, I think they, some companies wanted to come in and rip out all the old timbers on the bay windows, and my dad said no, just [coughs], the upstairs windows were, I mean, replaced, but you know, there was no way my dad said, those bay windows are a part of the character of the house, you’ve got to repair them, and do, and I think they did in the end listen to him.

So we should thank your dad for that then shouldn’t we?

Yeah, because that’s all part of the, the, the wooden structure of the, the, you know, it’s so elaborate over the windows and the, all that wooden panelling all round. [coughs]. But no, I just want to say that, you know, I couldn’t have wished for a nicer childhood, and with two lovely parents.

Yeah.

And that was perfect.

It sounds fantastic, it sounds like a wonderful idyllic childhood.

Oh it was marvellous, I can’t emphasise how lovely it was. I mean, [coughs], and as I say um, I lived there until I was twenty one.

Where did you move to at twenty one?

I moved um...[coughs]...

Did you get married at twenty one as well?

I got married when I was twenty one, um, I moved to Chadwell Heath. Um, a little house, um, that my dad helped to, um, it was an old, old house. Needed a lot of refurbishment. And as I said, he was very clever, he turned his hand to most things, and he helped refurbish the house, or, renovate the house I should say, not refurbish, renovate the house. Um, and then yeah, and then obviously I moved to Hornchurch. I’ve lived in Hornchurch now for twenty nine, twenty nine years. Thir-, well thirty years actually, almost.

In, in this location, ‘cause this house looks quite new isn’t it?

Yeah, not in this location, I’ve lived in two other houses, one further down there, I haven’t lived far, I mean when I come to Hornchurch, I lived in a house just a little way further down.

Ok.

And then I moved to a house just round the corner and then I moved to this, ‘cause you don’t need, when your children don’t live with you, you don’t need big houses, that’s the thing. So and as I said, when I found this little house overlooking the xxxx...

[laughs].

...I thought oh wow!

You can’t go wrong can you! [laughs].

[laughs]. No, that’s right! So.

It’s lovely, you’ve got a nice big garden yourself haven’t you?

Well it’s not bad, it’s yeah, not a bad little garden really, it’s not too big, but um, but my dad kept the garden of like, the lodge, it was beautiful.

Do you know what, a lot of people in the area still call it Les’ garden.

Yeah.

And they’re like, oh, it’s a shame Les’ garden doesn’t look like it used to.

Yeah.

‘Cause obviously, you know.

Oh it was beautiful, yeah. I mean, it was, it was full of flowers and you know, apple trees we used to climb up, and pear trees, I think there was a pear tree in the garden, an apple tree in the garden.

So you were allowed to climb your own trees...

Yeah.

Just not the ones in the park! [laughs].

Well yeah, that’s right! And er, yeah, we used to have um, a cooking apple tree, and a little cox’s orange, pippin tree at the bottom of the garden. And as I say, my dad’s garage ran at the bottom of the garden and he used to have a little door that used to go down in to it. But er...

There’s just one thing, it’s just sprung to my mind now, if it’s ok for me to ask, um, one of the ladies I interviewed, Mrs Tingey, seems to think that your father used to come to her house and do her gardening. Did he ever do private gardening for people round the area?

No.

Ok, so she’s probably, I mean, this ladies sort of ninety five, so um...

Yeah, no, he never used to.

She might have been confused, ok.

No, no, he never used to do, he used to keep his own garden, but he never, never did it um, as a private thing. I mean, he loved gardening, but he never did private work in that way.

Right ok.

No, I mean, perhaps, perhaps one of the gardeners from the park might have done.

It’s, it’s quite possible, I think she, she had it in her head that um, whoever used to do her garden was um, you know, a, a gardener or something in the park.

Yeah, possibly.

And I mentioned, I’d asked her if she’d known Les, because you know, and she was like, yeah he’s the one that used to do my garden. And I was like, ok. So I [laughs]...

No, he never, but she’s probably, I mean she probably had somebody, perhaps a gardener did a private sort of, work for her. But no, my dad never ever did that.

Ok.

Um, but the garden was beautiful I mean, it’s a shame I haven’t got any pictures of the garden, it was beautiful.

I think um...

You got, might have pictures.

Yeah I think I’ve got a couple of them, because Andy gave me copies of all your...

Because I did show, yes! Yes! Because I remember showing Andy the pictures of the garage and um...

And it looked absolutely stunning. It’s so beautiful.

Oh, it, he was so proud of his garden. He was, you know, it was perfect, the lawn was like a bowling green. And, but that was because of his love of horticulture was just in him, he just loved, as I say, that’s why he used to be so upset with the field when it was churned up from the fair, because it, you know, it goes against the grain of how it should look. And I suppose it’s like somebody coming and just churning up your own garden isn’t it?

[laughs]. Yeah, you wouldn’t be too pleased would you?

No! So that’s how he viewed it I think. Um, but no, the garden was beautiful. I mean it just had er, yeah, it, it was just lovely and obviously over the years the garden was altered in lots of ways and, um...but yeah it’s, it was a, a fabulous childhood. And I only stumbled across Andy because a friend of mine works for um, Barking and Dagenham, so she works at the civic centre I think.

Oh right ok.

And she met Andy on a course.

Ah!

And he was talking about, oh we’re doing this project up the lodge, and she said, my friend used to live there! And that’s exactly how this all started.

Fantastic! Well, is, isn’t it wonderful though that it is such a small world sometimes!

Yeah! And he said, really? What was her name? And er, xxxx said, well I’ll give her a phone number, and then she said to me, Chris I’ve given your number, I hope you didn’t mind, to this guy I met on a course. And I said, oh why’s that? And then of course we started!

[laughs].

And then I, I went to the house and met Andy, and I went a couple of times, ‘cause I was dying to go back in to the house, ‘cause I hadn’t been back in there since um, my mum and dad left there.

Right.

Which was two thousand (2000), so I hadn’t been back in the house, I hadn’t been there for, well, when I went there, it must have been last year sometime. So I hadn’t been in the house for ten years.

Wow!

Minimum, like minimum.

How did it feel going back in?

Well it was, because it was different, and um, it, it made me feel...well I did say to Andy, I said, it is really strange, ‘cause one the bedroom that my mum and dad had is still pink.

[laughs].

And the bathroom is exactly the same, still with that, ‘cause I actually said to Andy, um, when I spoke to him on the phone, I said, don’t tell me that bathroom has still got that bright pink bath in it. He said, it’s exactly the same as it was! And it was! It was exactly the same, so they hadn’t done much to the upstairs at all. It was still with the, the woodchip paper on the, on the walls with like, colour. But downstairs had been altered quite a lot, because the, the main living room had like um, a bench thing up for, I think they’d converted it like for disabled access and all sorts of things. I think the kitchen had been done as well. But the front room was exactly the same, so it, it was very strange going back in there, um, but it was something I, I’m glad I’ve done and seen it now, ‘cause it’s, it just makes me think of the park and the happy memories I have.

Of course. That’s fantastic! Thank you very much!

Oh, I hope I’ve been of help to...

You’re a star! You’re amazing, you’re memories are amazing, and I’m so grateful, thank you very, very much!

Oh that’s brilliant, I’m glad, I’m glad you came round! I just hope those little pictures, but as you say...

If it’s ok to borrow these, I can scan them in the office, is that ok?

Absolute-, yeah, that’s fine. Absolutely fine!

That’s fantastic.

But they, as you say, and it’s nice to see original pictures isn’t it?

Of course.

You know those pictures are what, nineteen forty eight (1948), what we are now, two thousand and eleven (2011), they’re sixty odd years old aren’t they?

Um, if you like I can put them all on a disc for you, so if you wanted to blow them up, that you could, because we would scan that at a high resolution.

Oh right ok!

And then if you wanted to make them bigger so you could display them or something, we’d be happy to put them on a disc for you?

Yeah, that’s be good, if you didn’t, if you wouldn’t mind doing that.

Not at all, what I’ll do is I’ll scan them in the office, and I’ll do them at as high a resolution as I possibly can.

Yeah.

And then obviously you can just sort of...

‘Cause they’re, they’re original pictures around the park, and they’ll never be replaced will they?

No of course not, well, we’re never going to see it looking like this again are we, because things do change.

No, I mean I know they’re tiny, but they are just certain areas of the park.

One of the things I like about computers, you can blow things up bigger! [laughs].

Yeah!

And that’s the only thing I like about them! [laughs].

And um, as I say, that Loxford Park entrance, with the old house, I mean that, the one where the lake is in it, I mean that’s...’cause I remember in one of those um, we went to the meeting, there was an entrance of the um, Loxford end, but it probably isn’t an old a picture as, as perhaps that one is.

I, I doubt it. No, so...

So, by all means take them, there!

Thank you very much!

[laughs].

I’ll er, I’ll stop the tape now anyway, so er [laughs]...

Well....

[Tape ends].

Interview Details

Name of interviewee:

Project: Barking Park

Date:

Language: English

Venue:

Name of interviewer: Claire Days

Length of interview: 114:43

Transcribed by: Ann Prestidge and Claire Days

Archive Ref: 2011_esch_BaPa_10

2011_esch_BaPa_11

2011_esch_BaPa_11

Ok so this is Claire Days interviewing Mrs Freeman on the 28^th of October 2011 for the Barking Park Oral History project. If I can ask just say your full name and date of birth please?

Yeah er my name is Elizabeth Freeman And I was born on the 16^th March 1941.

1941 brilliant. And can I ask where you were born please?

I was born at erm, Ilford Maternity Hospital erm up in the Eastern Avenue it was.

And what did your parents do for work?

My mother didn’t work because women didn’t work then, er well my, my mother didn’t work and my father worked for Shell and BP and he drove a lorry taking erm, petrol to the airports, the aerodr-dromes yeh, erm, yeah that’s what he did.

That sounds like quite an interesting job

Yeh, dangerous job

Oh

But yes, because during the war time, when, when I was born he would be driving along with, not allowed to have headlights on, no allowed to have lights on at all and of course er, aerodromes would be military places that were a target for bombs. So it was a high risk job and so that’s probably why he didn’t have to get called up for the second world war.

Right so it’s a reserved occupation

Well...

...because of the importance of it

It, it was the job he had, was important to the, the war really

Yeah

Delivering the petrol yeah

Did he ever talk about getting frightened sort of driving around in the blackout and things like that.

He did use to talk about how he couldn’t see ahead of him sometimes it was so dark if there was no moon and have to get out to have a look to see where the road went in the, the roads signs were not there, they’d all been taken down in the war.

[Laughing]That’s quite a good memory then to find his way around.

Yeah, yeah

Crikey, that sounds like quite an experience doesn’t it

Yeah

Did you ever, did you ever talk to your father about war time experiences

Erm

That you may have been too young to remember

No I was born during the war and erm I was four when it finished and to me I didn’t know anything different so you don’t, wouldn’t have thought it was anything out of the way, to have a war ‘cause that’s all you knew and erm, no I didn’t no.

Oh, ok, that’s, that’s fine.

Yeah

So, so what schools in the area did you go to?

I went to South Park School

South Park School

In erm, in Water Lane yeah

And how did you find that?

Hated it

Oh dear

Hated it

Why did you hate it?

Well one of the reasons why I never played with other children because they, most of them been evacuated and there would like be one or two children around that erm, I saw occasionally but I’d s-, never had an experience with playing erm, brought up in a very fearful er, situation of your not out of, if you don’t go out of your mother’s eye sight because of the war. You know everyone had to be close by in case the warning went and erm, yes so when I was then taken to school it was a very traumatic experience to be erm, taken away from my mother and put on amoungst a whole sea of faces that I didn’t even know these children. Who were they? You know? And I certainly didn’t like the teachers, they were very severe.

[Laughing]

But I didn’t settle at all well but erm, I was ok once I got to secondary school. I never liked any of it at the school there, very w-, the reception teacher was ok, but it was after, I had a very strict teacher, oppressive it was. Cla-, over fifty in a classroom, erm, I can just....

People complain about child class sizes these days

I know, I could just remember the rainy days when you couldn’t get out, cooped up in there, and the smell of school dinners

[laughing]

Mince meat, y-[laughing]

[laughing] and cabbage! [Laughing] I remember that smell well. So er, I do understand that wow. So it, so wh-, what secondary school did you go to?

I went to Mayfield, erm, which was

[there you go]

For the first year, it was in Goodmayes Lane erm, because they were building a new school at Chadwell Heath, and then when I was erm, twelve, we transferred to the new school at Chadwell Heath. That was lovely, nice big field hmmm, that was a nice school there. And the teachers were nice.

So was that the biggest difference from you, between primary and secondary school then was the fact that the teachers were nicer and that’s why you enjoyed it more?

Erm, it couldn’t see out of the windows at South Park School, they were frosted windows, very cramped erm, it was like a prison cell, I felt yeah. And also I was young erm, but at the secondary school the teachers were not oppressive, they were very much more laid back and friendly and smiley and erm, allowed children to sort of develop and really saw what your talents were. And so people that had been told they were no good all the time you know and there was loads of us, never any good, well nothing much expected of us at South Park, erm, when we got to Mayfield, the world was our oyster yeah.

Wasn’t that fabulous!

Yeah, yeah that was good

It’s really inspiring to hear about teachers that allow their students t-, t-, you know to develop in that way isn’t it.

Yeah

No, it’s really lovely

I think I was, I did have one teacher at South Park School that was lovely and his, he was Mr Hart and I’d actually gone down in to the bottom grade ‘cause I was doing so poorly [laughing] and I came top of his class but he had a different approach to these other teachers. His was very much you help each other and one child sat and helped another one and erm, praising lots of praise and lots of erm, opportunities to just develop as a normal being ....yes, yeah.

Nice

I thought some of these other people were a bit warped

[Laughing] What do you think there was an element of them, because of the period that you went to school that it would have been sort of almost like old Victorians or...

Yes

So, do you think there was an element of that?

I remember their laced up shoes and their thick knit stockings and erm, glasses down the end of the row, nose and it was very erm, not e-, not every single one but erm, several of them stand out of in my mind as being very strict with young children probably they were teaching the wrong age group I would think. Yeah

Ok, but that’s really interesting, you know to hear about the contrast of the teaching style, I think that’s, quite relevant today as well so thank you, thank you, thank you for telling me about that. So what did you do when you left school?

Erm, when I left school, erm, I got a job in the civil service in, in the Inland Revenue

Oooh lovely. And how did you find that job? Did, did you erm, was it advertised? Or was it through friends that you heard about it?

No, my mum found it from a neighbour worked there and her neighbour erm, arranged for me to, well, told us of a job going at Gants Hill and I went for an interview and got this job. Yeah.

Ok

I just stayed there seven years. Hmmm.

And after that seven years, did you stop working to have a family or..?

No after that seven years I went on a bus over land to India.

Oh fabulous

I gave up my job and went round the world for two years.

That’s ok for some isn’t it?

Yeah, and then when I came back, I went to train to be a teacher. [laughing]

So after your bad experiences of teachers....

I made sure everyone had a nice time, I hope.

Ok. So if, if it’s ok, if I can just jump back a little bit now, erm, I know that you said you were a member of the Red cr- er St John’s Ambulance

St John’s Ambulance yes

When, when was it you would’ve joined them?

I first went there when I was ten. Erm, can’t remember how we came to hear about it, probably a friend of mine’d mother heard about it and we both went together. And erm, that was in erm, Barking

Ok

A school at, I forgotten what the schools called near, near the Upney Station, erm, just before you get to it s-, there’s a school in a side road there, forgotten what its called. But anyway that’s where we used to go, and that was, that was quite nice.

Was that Barking Abbey School by the .....

No, beyond there where it might be part of Barking Abbey now

Oh right ok.

I think it might be actually

Right ok

Yes

Yeah I probably don’t remember what it would...

Near that clinic, near th-, near the walk-in centre.

Yes, I think that’s what I’m thinking

Yes not far from there opposite that

Ok

Yeah

So, was that a kind of, an open thing that anybody could go along to and join?

Yeah, yeah

So, so wh-, what was it about the St, St John’s ambulance that really appealed to you?

Oh, I liked to learning to do bandages, that was f-, quite fun really you know, you got taught how to every limb and er, how to do a bit of first aid. They obviously made it fun enough to get, keep you going

Hmmm

Yeah

So how, how old would’ve you been when you actually started doing events and things with them.

Erm, xxxxxxx [paper crushing noises]

Sorry [laughing]

Erm, I’ve got dates on these xxxx. As I got in to my teens xxx we got more. I was more active in it you know.

Right

Oh we-, we had to earn our, learn our code of Chivalry and erm, we used to have to memorise this and we used to have to do Marching around as well so we did drill practise and bandaging. They broke the evening up a bit you know and then erm, a hospital duties, you could do

Ok

And then in 1954, that’s when I was 13, we, because we did all this marching and that we, we were taken to places. We used to erm, we, we went up to erm, Hype Park there and I can remember that erm, Princess Margaret was there and erm, I can remember her sort of standing with people from St john’s, people from all over the country all in parade for ages and ages and ages a-, in rows and we were told to stand easy but then when we had to stand to attention we had to flex your knees every now and again so that you don’t faint.

Oh

Things like that

Ok

And then we had the March past and everything and that was all in the paper about that. Erm, we had different displays that our parents could come to a-, we, we were

Oh fabulous

...worked for certificates much like in the guides and er, got presentations for certificates and erm, then in 1954 the same, the same year erm, there was this thing at St Pauls Cathedral for any one er, for us to go to. It was very special that. And then in 1955 I obviously dropped off because erm, Miss Kindon who was our leader wrote to my mother to say I’m wondering about Elizabeth, I haven’t seen her at class for a while. And then she, you know cause of the school holidays and that, she said about there bein-, there was a outing, which I had missed and then she said now for coming events and she said there’s a first aid competition and there’s a home nursing c-, oh there’s a h-, first aid competition in October for the Donald Mckenzie shield, a home nursing competition for the Dristle Cup

Hmmm

And an open evening to which we invite parents. So there was plenty of things to aim for and I did enjoy that time. And we used to go out and one, well on this was erm, here I am in team of four and won this cup

Oh wow

And because we often, the bed making competition and with the first aid competitions you go on a Saturday, the team of four and erm, there’d be someb-, in a school in East Ham and there’d be somebody made f-, dressed up and painted up as if they’d had an accident or ill or something and they’d be laying there and you had to use all your first aid skills by erm, pretending it’s real and asking them how they felt and where it hurt and all this and making sure that people kept back and all that sort of-, as if it was the real thing. Any way we won the competitions and because of that then erm, she took us up to see this xxxx sport at the White City Stadium

Oh Fabulous

Now, this

So that was your treat for doing so well at that event

A reward was really yes, and erm because of the targets of you can do certificates like you could do them in erm, I did one in Pressed f-, collecting pressed flowers and writing up a book about flowers

Oh lovely

That’s one thing I did, there was, but there were twelve different exams. The first aid was definitely important in it, and then I got the Grand Prior badge which was erm the highest award you can, you can get.

Wow

So not many people get the Grand Prior but you know you had to pass a lot of exams and, and then you get this Grand Prior. Erm....

That’s fabulous

And then I.....

So how, how old were you when you won the, that Grand Prior?

Hmmm I’m not sure what age I was exactly there was a s-, no, yeah I think you had to do it before a certain age so I’d been a teenager.

Right, oh wow so you were quite young as well

Yes

It’s quite an achievement isn’t it?

Well in fifty-seven, or have I got, or was I wearing my Gran prior then? You wore it on the sleeve, can’t see that girl’s heads in the way

[laughing]

Erm, I can’t remember, erm, I’ve got all this, oh yeah, I’ve got all the certificates at home. That’s what the Grand Prior looks like, that.

Wow.

Hmmm

That’s a big shield isn’t it?

Yeah, er, actually, yes, actually all the, all the certificates I should put in here and I’ll come back and tell you.

[Laughing] That’s fine. If you can find them.

I know where they are.

They haven’t escaped down the back or something [Laughs]

No

No, I mean that’s great, it’s great that you’ve got so many photos of it

Yes

As well so

And we used to do hospital duties and first aid duties in public places and up at theatres in London

Ok

Probably more when I got into the adult section though the erm…the theatres in London, but as…a teenager I used to go to the hospitals and then you’d get badges for how many hours you done

Ok

You do two hundred hours…service in hospitals and you’d get a badge

Sorry something attacking you down there [Laughs]

It’s my pen [Laughs]

Oh right [Laughs] so you would have obviously spent quite a lot of time in Barking then

Yes

As a youngster

Yes

Is there anything in particular at Barking itself that kind of stands out in your memory from those times?

Well one of the things I remember is erm we used to do erm on…Armistice Day we’d, we’d go round, we’d XXXX the parade and march around the streets through Barking and…one or two…well one of my friends from St John’s ambulance used to live near St. Margaret’s church and I went to her house and they’ve all gone now, one of those little old houses that...erm you open the front door and you’re in the front room and then you open a cupboard door, or so you think, but there’s a staircase

[Laughs]

One of those tiny little houses

Proper little cottage

Yes

Oh wow

Right, right by the church, right near the church and of course there was quite a lot of those houses and they’ve gone

Oh what a shame

Quite a lot of Barking is quite different now in that respect you know

Do you know what those cottages were there for; were they made for workers or…?

No…I don’t know who lived there without doing some research

Ok

But erm I know she lived there and she was one of a big family and they’re all in this tiny house

[Laughs] this tiny little cottage

But very happy little family

Ah

Erm…just…maybe fishermen you know

Ah

Because Barking used to be fishing

Yes

So they could have been fishermen cottages, at one point years and years ago everybody was…was in the fishing trade in Barking so it could have been that

I’ve seen so fabulous old images of the old fishing fleets and things that used to go out of Barking so

Yes, yes, have you?

Yeah, they’ve got some really fabulous stuff in the archive actually at Valance House

Ah

So if you’re ever tempted to pop down

Yeah, I’d like to see that

Yeah, I mean they’ve got a fabulous collection

I’ve seen the museum in there…the Valance…

House museum

Yes

Ah right ok yes, I’m not sure I haven’t been there for while actually but, actually in the archive they’ve got literally hundred and hundreds of old photographs and documents

Mmh I’d like to see them

It’s well worth a dig through [Laughs]

Yes

I can assure you, it’s a very pleasant afternoon is that [Laughs]

Ah yes

Erm ok so, so that I mean that’s kind of you enduring memory, did you ever go to services or anything at St. Margaret’s as part of…you know your role or going with your friend as she lived local to the area

Erm I do remember going to services there but I don’t know whether that was with St John’s…I must have been with St. John’s ambulance because I can’t image why I had gone otherwise

[Laughs]

But I don’t know…whether that would be on the Armistice Day

Ok

It might well have been…I’m not sure

They quite often do a church service on Armistice Day as well don’t they so erm

Yes, it could have been that

Possible

Yes

Ok erm and sorry to jump around a little bit

That’s alright

But now to jump onto the first you went to Barking Park

Right

And can you remember your earliest memory of Barking Park

Erm

Would it have been part of St. John’s ambulance?

No it would have been before then

Ok

Yeah I would have gone there just to walk through and see the little train…and look at the…fish in the fish in the pond

Mmh

And erm go on the boats

Ok

Yeah

And how old would you have been then do you think?

Well I was ten when I went to St John’s, so it would have been before that, but I would have been after four, it certainly wouldn’t have been during wartime

Yeah

No erm cos we’ve got South Park and I used to spend most of my time n South Park playing

Right

But sometimes I went to Barking Park, not a lot of times when I was tiny but erm more when I was erm a bit older with my friend who lived close by there

Ok

Just sometimes we’d go over there and have play over there and go to the swimming pool there

Ah the lido

Yeah

And what were your impressions of the lido?

Well I thought it was nice really because erm there was a paddling pool and there was also the swimming pool and you’d go into the swimming…I would have probably have gone there when I went to secondary school, because I did a lot of swimming and my friend did and we used to go to different swimming pools and that, so I was probably be about eleven or twelve

Ok

Probably when I…eleven or twelve and I can remember how you could sunbath there, yes very nice so it was you…to go to Ilford and train to do your swimming because we did a lot of swimming erm in the nice summer’s day it was so good as going to Barking Park where it was lovely…open aired and the sunshine yeah

Yeah

It’s a pity its gone isn’t it?

It is a shame a lot people have said the same

A pity that paddling pool’s gone yes, yeah perhaps they’ll bring it back because you know people do like to take they’re little children to paddling pools

Oh I think what they’re planning to do is they’re turning the lido area into a kind of wet play area with water fountains

Ooh that’s going to be nice

So yes it’s for you know adults and children to sort of run through the fountains

Yes, yes

And sort of have fun in there

But the lidos were healthy places because I know at Valentine’s Park erm there used to be a violin teacher in Ilford

Mmh

This is XXXX Mr. Young

Oh XXXX

He used to go for an early morning swim, all weathers when it was open, you know erm…for his health, just to keep fit and he lived to be quite very old…eighties, nineties something like that

I’ve heard of people…on hot summer’s day they would go down to the lido at sort of seven am for an early morning swim

Mmh that’s it

Before work or whatever so

So really it’s a shame it’s gone because it did help keep the nation healthy

[Laughs]

Round Barking anyway

Definitely I mean that’s the great thing about the green spaces in London, is that they were very much for people to sort enjoy themselves, relax and exercise

Yes that is true yeah

I mean it’s a great facility, but is there anything in particular about the lido erm…kind of in the construction of it or the atmosphere of it that you can remember that you would like to talk about?

Well all I can really remember is that you went through a turnstile and erm…you’d get changed but I don’t know…if…you couldn’t leave your clothes…I don’t know what we did with our clothes, I don’t think there were lockers

Ok

I can’t really remember that very clearly but there was something about clothes, whether we had to put them in a bag and take them out…but I don’t remember lockers there…there might have been, perhaps someone will tell you [Laughs]

Erm other people have told me that…

There were lockers?

That when you went in you got a little key on a thing that you put round your wrist

Oh well perhaps I mixed up them yes

[Laughs]

And perhaps there were lockers

And that’s what other people have told me, but obviously…it depends on what period of time you went XXXX, I suppose

Yeah

And whether, whether they had them when you going

I can…I certainly can remember some place having to put them in, a plastic bag

Right ok

Out with you…memory does play tricks doesn’t it

[Laughs] it’s very kind of selective a memory isn’t?

Mmh

It kind of remembers what it wants to remember

There was some issue in my memory about my clothes anyway

Right ok

So maybe it was, it was put in a locker then and erm…I don’t know, I don’t know

[Laughs]

I thought there weren’t lockers

And did the lido used to get busy?

Yes very, yeah crowded

How many people would you say were in there on a busy day?

Oh I have no idea how many would be in there, but it was quite crowded I don’t if they…sometimes said ‘you can’t come in we’re full up’ perhaps, I don’t know about that

Do you remember ever queuing to going the lido?

Yes, yes

Yes and would that queue also be quite long sometimes?

Yes especially in the really hot days and the holidays, but…

You mentioned before erm when I asked you about your very first memory of the park, the first thing you said way the train and I was wondering if you could just tell me a little bit about your memories of the train if that’s ok

Mmh well I don’t remember too much other then seeing and going on it…once or twice you know and it was…my memory was that what a shame, it’s such a short ride

[Laughs]

But I should have been thinking, aren’t I lucky it’s here at all yes, yes

I mean it’s quite a unique feature for the park

Yes that’s right

I think, so when you went on it from your own memory erm can you remember what route it took…was it just from the lodge to the boathouse, would that have been it?

Yes that’s it

Ah right ok

Yes, just the one strip

Sorry I’m only asking because so people seem to remember that it used to run along the back of the lake, so I was just curious as…

Oh no I just know it erm

Some people say it didn’t and other people did

From the lake to the gate

So erm it’s a bit confusing sometimes but erm

Yes, yes just a straight line down there

Ok and you also mentioned the boats as well did you ever go on the boats on the lake?

Erm oh I think maybe once or twice, not very often because we always went on the boats in South Park you know

Right ok

Yeah

Went on boats in South Park

I didn’t find that one quite so interesting as South Park Lake with the islands

Right ok

Well I don’t know, we…yes South Park lake…was really good for boats but erm Barking Park was ok but it was erm…just straight down and up again and was…

[Laughs]

Not so interesting

Wasn’t as much as an adventure for you

That’s right yes

Yes can imagine, especially for young children, it’s quite nice to feel like you’re on a…a little adventure on a boat of something isn’t it?

Yes

Ok and is there anything about erm…the wildlife in the park that you…kind of really stands out in your mind, do you remember feeding the duck in there or anything

No, no…there were ducks there, I reckon my memory is there often the pond was quite dirty at one end, very dirty you didn’t want to hang around that end erm…that was, that was my main memory yeah

Ok and did you ever used to play sports or anything in the park?

Yes

Oh you did, what sports did you play?

Oh well at school at I did sports

Ok

Yes so we did…I was a runner and a long jumper and swimmer

Wow

So those were my main skills erm but you’re thinking like tennis aren’t you? in South Park we did tennis

Ah ok

But I didn’t in Barking Park

It sounds like you were quite a fit; active young lady then weren’t you?

Yeah, oh yeah I represented my school for swimming and for athletics

Wow ok

Yeah…yeah

That’s great, so when would first would have first gotten involved with erm the carnival and the fair

Right in St. John’s ambulance duties that we did

Yes

As a teenager erm they had the carnival…well before I was a teenager, I think it was probably about twelve when I found that, when I was on that float when that picture was taken, but erm yeah they had the carnival float year and we’d erm…they’d have erm…it’d go through the streets and end up at Barking Park, then there’d be the firework display, XXXX but it all tide in together, the carnival, the funfair and the fireworks, all the same week and erm…so as a junior St. John’s ambulance member, I’d go over there to the…there was a first aid hut

Mmh

And do first aid…duties with adults there, so there’d be several people and then I kept doing this until I was one of the adults, and there’d be juniors there erm it was a real fun place to be a lovely atmosphere, you’re far enough away to hear it all, you could chatter and enjoy yourselves and relax and not a awful lot of disasters happened, you know it wasn’t a…nobody vomiting or anything like that

[Laughs]

They wouldn’t have come out to the fair, but there were perhaps cuts and grazes, someone fallen over, but nothing that was ever involved with that was major incident, get an ambulance, nobody when I was doing it fell out of the swing or anything

Oh crikey [Laughs]

And erm then we’d go round in pairs erm walk round the fair to make sure…well to have a good look, but to make sure our presence was felt and people knew that there were first aid and to see if everybody was alright and it was just a superb atmosphere of happiness and you know the big wheel and…knowing that I couldn’t go it, I could enjoy watching [Laughs]

[Laughs]

Without knowing that someone’s going to force me on these things

Do you not like rides and things?

Yeah well we did go on them when we…weren’t on duty, yeah but they’re really…you’ve really got to have nerves of steel to go on that big wheel and then I waits at the top and then the other person’s shaking the seat there

And you’re clinging on for dear life, telling them to stop [Laughs]

Yeah, yeah I did used to like them erm yeah it was just nice looking round the side shows and erm

Is there anything in particular about the side shows that you remember? I mean what kind of side show would they have?

Well I did...I was telling Barry this I do remember they had some thing that don’t have now, and that’s come and look at the fat lady or come and look at some de-formed or something, you know and this poor soul would be sitting there and...you know...you wouldn’t do it to people now

No I mean it wouldn’t be allowed now

Unless it’s television, you know that weight watch...weight losing

[Laughs]

Very enormous people you know, I think that’s just as bad really, but erm...erm yeah they had shooting range, the usual sorts of things and coconut XXXX and...hooking the duck, they did have lots of things, lots of things yeah, candy floss

Ok

You know it’s the usual sound of hearing the people calling out XXXX you to their stall, and everyone having a nice time...didn’t ever see any fights or riots or anything like that, just people really generally enjoying themselves

And you mentioned then about how you know sort of things like freak shows and things wouldn’t be aloud these days, how did it make you feel at the time, was it all part of the party atmosphere, did it feel...normal to you?

Oh...you just thought that’s what happens at fairs and circuses

Ok

I didn’t think oh this shouldn’t...it shouldn’t be happening, like circuses, there weren’t people then saying you shouldn’t have animals there were...it was before the days of I was aware of people taking a stand about things

Yes of course

Yeah, yeah

And you also mentioned about erm every year St. John’ ambulance would do a float

Yes

I wonder if you could sort of describe maybe some of the float that they used to have

Right well, our float of that photo that I’ looking for erm is of a road accident, somebody’s laying there with bandages and other people are sort of in their position as if they’re doing the first aid and I was one of them having to kneel down, being one of these people doing the first aid and I can remember it’s an awful long way to go and you keep that position, you’re desperate to stand up or sit down or

Yes, stretch your legs a little bit I should imagine

Yes and used to look at the ones where they were singing and dancing and thinking oh aren’t they lucky [Laugh]

[Laughs]

Can move about yeah, there’d be different organisations that erm put a float on and different businesses and they’d decorate it, it’d be decorated according to erm...what they wanted and erm people would be throwing money, we used to have people throwing money on to ours, for St. John’s ambulance, they’d be throwing the money and most of it went in the road sort of thing

Mmh ok

Well some of it did erm...yeah it used to be quite a long procession, but when you’re in the procession, you’re not seeing it go by, I’ve got to try and think now what I saw at the beginning and the end, churches, you get churches that erm, erm sort of advertising erm...and there would be the little girls...now what were they called...where they, they’re marching along and tossing sticks in the air

Oh crikey erm

Them, they’d be there and other

I can’t remember what they’re called

Erm not XXXX, I forgotten what they’re name is but they’d be there and different organisations, there’d be people marching as well as...erm on floats yeah

And how would you decorate the floats itself, I mean I know you said you acted out a scene, but would you have flowers...

No I don’t know who did it, I don’t know who did...some of them would have flowers on them anyone was draped I think with erm...more like flags and material and things like, people would drape them round erm...and you had the...it was a lorry with the sides taken off, so you had to take you weren’t going fall off the side you see

Crikey

So XXXX as many people as they could get on, would be on the float without making it dangerous, so one of them got pushed off you know

[Laughs] do you know if that ever happened?

No I never heard of it happening but…cos the float went along so slowly…erm it was my fear…that maybe I might [Laughs]

And can you…are there any other floats or anything that stand out in your mind as being particularly memorable, maybe from other organisations other then St. John’s ambulance?

Well not really no, no, no

Ok

Not from that particular one I can’t think of…any…people did, they did used to judge the floats and they would be awarded according to how they came and I recall ours being a prize winner

Ok

I don’t recall it

[Laughs] maybe it won something at some point but can’t remember

[Laughs]

So would you do a different scene every year that you took part in that?

Yeah, they would a different one, yeah

Ok so do you remember any other ones that St John’s ambulance did any other particular scenes?

Erm…maybe that was the only one I was actually one, or it’s the one I’ve got the photo of, so therefore I remember that one

And other times you would have been in the park at the first aid hut or something instead

Yeah, yes, yes

Right ok and…I know you were saying that sometimes if you weren’t on duty you would go on the rides and things, would you be scheduled for everyday of carnival week or would you have days off where you could go to carnival

No you would take it in turns, you know

Right

Erm so there wouldn’t be too many on one day erm sort, you would say which day you were going to do and what times you going to do

And how many St John’s ambulance people do you think would work that event at the park

Well there’d be a least four

Ok

Two adults, two cadets I can remember that

Are there any particular characters or people that you worked with that you remember that you would like to tell an anecdote or something about or…

Erm in St. John’s ambulance

Yeah

No just that the lady that ran it Miss Kindred was erm she was nice…there’s no anecdote really but she lived with her sister, and erm she was very dedicated really because she gave all her time up for us and she’d be very precious about us trying our uniform on and we’d have to go to her house, whenever we’d needed a new uniform and she measure us up and then she’d go [Clicking]

[Laughs]

As she was doing it, she was concentrating and she was making that noise with her tongue and she’d be very fussy about getting everything just in the right position and very fussy…we had to starch our aprons and have our belts really starched, everything had to be pressed in, you know, couldn’t go out on any parades or any duty within out it being absolute perfection and we’d have these inspections where she’d come round and check everything and your shoes had to be highly polished and she would make sure that you did that, but she was never oppressive, she was sweet old lady really, I always thought she was an old lady, she probably wasn’t at all, but…

[Laughs] everyone looks old to a teenager, don’t they so erm…ok erm and sorry jumping back to the park again a second, I was wondering if there’s any particular features in the park, because erm a lot of people have mentioned they always thought the lodge house was quite iconic or the boathouse was quite iconic or the bandstand, I wondered if you remembered…had any memories of any of those sorts of things, they you would like to share

No, I used to come in the other end

Right

Coming in from South Park Drive erm going in the gate, first of all coming to the pond which was always the end where it was all leafy and dirty, that end really and then walking along erm I went to a circus about three or four years ago with my grandchildren, that was in the park there and…erm it’s got a lovely big field

Yes

There’s a lovely big field to run across there and the fireworks, you know going to see the fireworks there erm plenty of space round there erm I always used to just walk along…erm XXXX halfway along the lake and I didn’t used to erm go in that other much at all but XXXX

Ok you mention then about a circus, four years ago I haven’t heard a circus

Yeah there was a circus over there

Could you tell me a little bit about there if that’s ok?

Yeah, was just a tent was there and they got their adverts up and I took my two grandchildren along and erm one of them was erm, she must have been eighteen months, oh she can’t have been that, she might have just been two actually, she’s now five so it was three years ago

Ok

Yeah and that was nice erm they were selling candy floss and stuff in the interval and erm there’s no to speak animals of and erm they were very happy in coming out these two, one, one was two and one was five and they were just rolling a tumbling, they’d seen the clowns and they were rolling and tumbling home across the grass there you know

Ah lovely

Yes, so they do still use the park for…they’ve got a big space for big event and the fair; they do still have the fair, don’t they?

Yes, yes they do I think it was there quite recently actually, so

They just…it usually comes about the beginning of September time, middle of September somewhere round about that

You mentioned about fireworks as well, was that during carnival week

Yeah

Or were…have there been firework displays there at other occasions?

Well they used to have it at the end of the carnival, the last day of the carnival they used always have fireworks erm now they have them on…bonfire nights as well I think

Ok and then you mentioned then about taking your grandchildren to the circus in Barking Park

Yes

Is Barking Park somewhere you take your grandchildren or children to often?

No I take them to South Park, because across the road to where we live [Laughs]

[Laughs] much more convenient

Mmh cos I live in South Park terrace and South Park...well there’s a park there and then you go down the road…South Park Drive and there’s Barking Park, but unless you’re feeling energetic you wouldn’t chose that park from…while we’ve got one opposite really

Of course

Yeah

So you live in quite a convenient location for green spaces don’t you?

Yes oh South Park Drive is wonderful

Yeah

Because it’s got allotments down there, it’s got South Park, Barking Park erm the Loxford Park is close by

Mmh

Erm and then they’ve got the fields of erm near the bus garage, the fields of Barking Abbey School

Yes of course

Plenty of fresh air

Lovely, lovely space to live in isn’t it?

Yeah

And how important do you think that parks and public spaces like that are to, to Londoners and especially people who live in cities?

Yeah very important because erm…years ago, I’ve been looking into parks actually because I’m…I was quite interested in the development of parks

[Laughs]

And I found that they…years ago they discovered that people who lived in West London where there were open spaces were healthier

Mmh

Then the people in East London, because East London grew so rapidly that they didn’t…it was built before they even thought about leaving an open space and then there was erm I think it was…I down know the history of that bit, but Victoria Park…Queen Victoria a lot that ground or something but there was this big area left for open space and then of course Hainault Forest was brought by, or part of the Hainault was brought by Redbridge to preserve that space and erm they decided they needed to have parks and so that’s…as they developed out of London from the East after they realised the health aspect, the lungs of London, I think they called the parks didn’t they?

Yes, yes

Then there’s parks that are there and I think they are important

Yes

For space because people live in crowded like rats in a box, it’s not good but also for the fresh air, a bit of air and wildlife

I suppose a lot of people in that area, they tend to live in flats, they don’t really have gardens and things of their own do they?

No, no and they’re very important to people that haven’t got a garden

Yeah

And the Wanstead flats, there’s just lots of space isn’t there?

Yeah we’re quite lucky really aren’t we in East London erm ok I’m just going ask then is there anything else you’d like to add about Barking or Barking Park or anything else

Erm

Whatever

No I think that’s probably it

Yeah, just one more thing I was going to ask you actually do you remember any of the erm actual park staff in park like wardens or keepers?

No, no good XXXX

Ok brilliant, that’s fine thank you, thank you very much

Right ok thanks

I’ll stop the tape now

Right

[TAPE END]

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Elizabeth Freeman

Project: Barking Park

Date: 28th October 2011

Language: English

Venue: ECH Office, Ilford

Name of interviewer: Claire Days

Length of interview: 39.26

Transcribed by: Li-Anne Tan

Archive Ref: 2011_esch_BaPa_11

2011_esch_BaPa_12

2011_esch_BaPa_12

Ok so this is Claire Days interviewing for the Barking Park Oral History project, erm the date today is the ninth, of November…I think [Laughs]

Yes it is yeah

About right

XXXX

Oh crikey erm wrong way round, but erm…brilliant, and can I ask you to say your full name and date of birth please, if that’s ok?

Right erm my name is Martin XXXX Pierre, I was born on the 15^th of the fifth 1964

15^th of the fifth 1954?

‘64

’64 sorry

XXXX

[Laughs] sorry about that erm and can I ask you where you were born please?

Forest Gate

Forest Gate, erm was that in the maternity hospital down there?

Yes

Brilliant

And can I ask what your parents did for work?

Erm my dad…worked in Marsh Lane in Stratford…near; quite near the roundabout…to do…I can’t remember if…what the name of the company was…it was to do with steel

Oh ok…and did your mother work at all?

Erm my mum has worked…erm last time she was working; she was working as a erm…in a nursery

Ok, and that’s a children’s nursery not a XXXX one?

Yes children’s nursery

Ok…and can I ask what schools you went to if that’s ok?

Yes I went to…erm first…primary school was…XXXX St Luke’s I think, it is in Canning Town…and…then we went to St Helen’s school in Canning Town…and my secondary school was St Bonaventure’s in Forest Gate.

St Bonaventure’s, I’ve heard of that one [Laughs], it’s always nice when you hear about one you’ve heard of isn’t it, and did you have any brothers and sisters?

Yes I have three brothers…and erm three sisters, well one’s passed away…

Quite a large family you have there, isn’t it? Wow and what was it like for you growing up, are there any sort of memories that stand out in your mind from your childhood about the area or your schools or your family?

Erm…my memories of Canning Town…I think, cos we used…we used to live in Forest Gate, used live Atherton Road, which is right next to the swimming bathes.

Ok

Erm I don’t remember so much about…that place because I was a lot younger then, but erm…moving to erm…Canning Town erm…at the time there wasn’t that many black families there, but erm…it was welcoming, erm…we had a sort like a playground, just in front of us, cos…like it was erm…flats, but sort of like erm…maisonettes…type flats and erm…we got on with all our neighbours and erm…and remember as children, we used to play things like run outs erm tin can alley erm…bit naughty knock down ginger

[Laughs]

Do that and we just used to mess about at the estates and…you know erm…black and white children just playing with one another…and you know I think all the children in…in the area knew my mum and my dad, but…’you alright Mrs Pierre?’ and before they’d ask…ask us if we could play out, they’d always ask my…my mum because erm it’s down to her whether or not we did [Laughs]

[Laughs]

Depending on how we behaved and erm yeah, I mean even up to today, there…when my mum…she’d be minding her own business, she might go to a function and somebody say ‘oh Mrs Pierre, how are you?’ she wouldn’t recognise the person, but it’s from childhood, when they still remember her, so…

Yeah

Yeah, that was…Canning Town, it was good and when I was about thirteen erm, my guardian who was my godmother, she…she and my mum were raised up as sisters…back in the West Indies…so at the time, she had my little cousin and she wanted a bit companion for him, so she asked me to come over for…holidays, the six weeks holidays, which I done, and at the same time she…erm had a conversation with my mum and said if it’s ok if I could stay there the…to be a companion to her son, because although she had children, other elder children but they had already left home and stuff like that and…again because my secondary school was in Forest Gate, it was in walking distance and my mum said ‘yeah she doesn’t mind’ and so from the age of thirteen I went to live in Forest Gate with my guardian…and erm

How was that going from quite a large family to suddenly living to just your godmother and her youngest?

Well it…the thing is being…the nature of our family…erm although she wanted me to be a companion for my cousin; you’re never really left alone because families were always visiting one another, so…you’re always seeing different family members, you’d met family members you wasn’t even aware of…family members who you wasn’t aware of so there was always that dialogue, and erm…connection with family members, I suppose erm…XXXX our company you know, when erm…there’re times when if they wanted to go out, if I was there…you know, they didn’t have to worry about him so…but because we had this close nit erm…family network…it wasn’t an upheaval because we was always seeing one another anyway

Mmh

And erm…you know, most weekends I would see my real brothers and sisters, my mum and dad so it wasn’t…erm much of an upheaval… erm I suppose personally for me, it was at least I can walk to school, I didn’t have to worry about getting buses and so on, and so forth

[Laughs]

So it wasn’t too bad

Yeah

You know, and erm again, its’ getting to meet new people as well, erm meeting new people on the road…erm I mean even some of the children went to my school…and XXXX went to neighbouring schools around the area erm…cos there was Forest Gate school, there was Stratford, there was St Helen’s…not St Helen’s, St Angela’s, and then…then there was ours…a bit further down then there was Lister school and…yes so there was quite a good network, so you tend to see some of these different…erm school uniforms, people within the area because they was quite close…so it was nice

It sounds really lovely, it sounds you know like you proper big extended family as well

Yeah

Which is lovely, you don’t really see a lot of that, these days do you?

No

Too much

Well, my opinion on is erm…I…my personal opinion, I blame the government on that

Right

And I tell you the reason why I blame the government...number one; when the government decided they were going to stop teachers…headmasters’ disciplining children, you open a doorway…now number two, you then said parents could not discipline their children, now I understand…erm where…if parents are abusing their children, you throw the key at them, but if parents are disciplining their children, you have got to allow that to happen, because from…erm the reason why I strongly say this, I remember when…in my school, we were going…let’s say field trip

Mmh

And we’d outside Forest Gate station…not Forest Gate, Upton Park station with some of my other schoolmates, and the teacher was there and straight away, I saw my auntie…I wasn’t doing anything wrong, but I just had to find a way of making sure, right you’re not doing anything wrong, because you had so much respect for your elders, and it wasn’t just your direct family, it was any…any person…you know and…in a way as…coming from a black community…you don’t know how, but if you saw one black person, for some reason or another, no matter where they came from, they knew your family.

[Laughs]

They knew your parents, so if you were doing anything wrong, it would get back to your parents…so I think from the moment…the government decided to take away…erm discipline from authority members of society, you then opened a gateway for erm children to stand up to their parents, to stand up to the teachers, now I mean even in schools…erm teachers can’t even look at pupils too strongly because they stand up in a firm way towards them ‘what you looking at’ so on and so forth and it’s the same thing at home with parents…that’s why we’ve got a broken down society where children having children…you can see…erm mother and son or mother and daughter or you vice versa with the fathers, and you would not know which one’s the child, because they having children at such a young age, I know back in the day yes there were times then erm…young ladies fell pregnant, due to…could have been one off situation or they maybe promised, you know we’re going to be with you, and then obviously, because of the way...erm…families felt shame, they kept that child away from the boyfriend or at the same time they’d move to a different area, so on and so forth, I understand…that part of how things was then, but now it’s so far out of control, that you know even in Barking there is a high level of teenage pregnancies…now I believe if we still had those disciplines that we had, erm…back in the eighties, we wouldn’t have this situation, you know and…sometimes, yes it’s good to have governments, but I think they need to think before they act, and also what they need to do, rather then just saying ‘right, we’re going to do, what we think you want us to do’ they should ask questions…and that’s why we’re in the situations that we are today…that’s my personal opinion.

I think it’s definitely a fair point, and it’s something a lot of other people say as well

Right

So you’re definitely not alone in thinking that way, so that’s a good thing; and…and so…can you remember your discipline at school being quite a lot harsher then it is today then?

…

Not harsh, but harsher

When I was going to school…erm the pupils had respect for the teachers…erm in some cases the pupils had fear of certain teachers, because one erm…it’s like, if a teacher told you to do something, you done it, if you didn’t do it, number one, there were some erm teachers, who would take matter in their own hands, but there’d be some teachers, right letter’s going to go to your parent, this that and the other and it’s like…like erm a phrase which my wife always uses…and we’ve heard it on various TV programmes, so on and so forth, it takes a village to raise a child, therefore if one parent is going to…erm…discipline the child, the whole village would discipline that child, so you’ve got a family of network erm with ours, if, if, if I’d done something wrong…my aunt would know, my uncle would know, my aunt would talk to me, my uncle will talk to me…there’d be so many people telling me where I’m going wrong, so I don’t repeat those mistakes and we, we haven’t necessary got that…now, I mean…if you look in terms of the erm black…black community in erm absent parents erm I know it happens in the white communities as well

Mmh

But when you listen to news, it’s mainly focused on the erm…black single…parentage and…I think…where we were concerned, we always…there was always somebody we can talk, talk to about certain things, now what they’re saying we’re looking for role models

Mmh

Role models this, role models that…it’s good to have role models, but I think…growing up, the firs…your first role model should be your parents…unfortunately because of the nature of how erm society has changed, how rules have changed how rules have changed, regulations…not a lot of children will look at their parents as a role model, not a lot of parents have got that mentality or maturity to be parents, they haven’t got much to offer to the child, and I also think, it’s good to love to your children, but if a parent raises their child for that child to say ‘yeah, my mum , my dad they’re like a friend to me’ your parent is a your parent, it’s not a friend and if you start treating your child like a friend, then you’ve got to do friend things, and if you’re going to do friend things and then it comes to you to erm firmly discipline your child, you child may have no respect for you…because what they can say and get away with from a friend, that’s exactly going to say and try and get away with, with a parent…sound like I’m ranting [Laughs]

[Laughs] well no, no it’s good and it’s really interesting so…I mean obviously your views are shaped by your upbringing and it’s kind of interesting for younger people to hear that

Mmh

And you know see which direction, they will then go in

Yeah

So it’s good to hear these views definitely

Yeah well I think it’s important because erm…you know sometimes erm…we expect a lot from the younger generation, but even as adults what do we offer them? You know erm sometimes, somebody…erm child needs to spoken to, needs to be directed. It’s all XXXX throwing a play station, throwing a erm…Xbox at a child, but you’re suppose to be teaching that child, you know erm, I go back to…back in the old days, when we didn’t have all these computers and so on and so forth, there was computers but they were for business

Mmh

Bow we’ve got all these things as toys erm as play things, there’s not a lots of connection, verbal connection with parent and child, erm now the…all these game consoles, so on and so forth, they’re the new babysitters…you know and parents yes understand…work is hard to come by, you’re trying to do what you can for your family, but erm as it’s been pointed to, even by my wife, there’s only so much hours I can put in at work

[Laughs]

You still got to have time for your family; you know because when a child grows up erm and they…if they had to explain about their parents well I didn’t see much of my parents…oh yeah my dad come home every night…my mum came home every night, but then they was on the PC, then they was working here…erm by the time I saw my parents, I was walking out the door, going to school, and…you just have not got that, that link, you know parent by name, but not parent by nurture…so you know I think [coughs] as adults we’ve got a lot to answer to as well…and even the older generation, you know you hear tales of erm…children haven’t got much respect, but adults…the more mature adults, they’ve got a lot to answer to…you know…Britain, England…the UK was renown for it’s patience and queuing up, now…the mature adults they…they just brush right in front the queue and then they do this…if somebody is erm…has a disability, so on and so forth, by all mean you show that respect, you let them go forward…if someone’s older then you, you show that respect and let them go forward, but if they just barrage forward, how are you expecting to get respect from the younger generation, if you ‘re not showing them respect at the same time…you know, every now and then…erm I hear these things on radio talks and so on and so forth…but in this current climate you just have to be very patience with people because you know it’s so easy to, out of a fit of anger, to say something which can land you in a lot of trouble, you know, you may not be looking for that trouble, but based on what comes out of your mouth…can land you in a lot of trouble

And I’ve have some very feisty pensioners in bus queue as well, so I completely understand, where you’re coming from there

Yeah, mmh you know so…yes that’s my erm [Laughs]

[Laughs] that’s great thank you, thank you for sharing that, erm I was going to say…after you finished school did you go to college or did you go straight into work?

Erm well…then it was erm YTS

YTS, what was that?

Erm Youth Training Scheme

Ah ok

And erm…I worked for a company, at a training scheme, called Target, they used to be in erm…between Bow, Mile End and it was erm in Gunmaker’s Lane which just…on the outside of Victoria Park, so going there…you learnt erm metalwork, carpentry, there’s lots of other different things they done in there, office work and so on and so forth, so…while I was there, I done some carpentry and some metalwork…and…after doing that, there wasn’t a lot of erm…of that industry…for me, I do remember when I did apply for erm an apprenticeship, but this place was so far in…somewhere in North Anglia, that even they said to me ‘you know we appreciate that you’re requesting for the position, but we feel that, you know, your age, where you live, it’d be too much for you to get to’ which erm…disappointed, I was disappointed, but I agreed and understood that, so from…while I was erm at the Target training, they also looked to see what jobs were available…put you to erm interviews and so on, so on. So I then went to an interview for a delicatessens company in erm, in Mile End and you know…they, I don’t think I’d wrong in that they supplied delicatessen products, all around the world

Wow

You know, all different, various different salads, even things like caviar, so they were a well established company…and from there I went to work…erm in a erm…bedding company in…Custom House erm…I cant remember what they’re called now…Spirolinks, I think they were called Spirolinks, I think they were called Spirolinks, they no longer existed over there, whether or not the business has gone else where I don’t know…erm it used to belong to a Jewish family, and used to make anything to with beds, from the erm…the legs, the headboards, the…the springs, and all the rest of it, and erm…I was based in the area where they done…mostly with the wood, cutting and drilling, and so on and so forth, so…it still kept a link with carpentry…doing that…

Excuse me something dropped, how do you like your tea?

Oh erm, white no sugar, please if that’s ok, thank you

Do you want a cup XXXX?

Erm no I’m alright, thank you…so erm I done that for several years, then after that erm I erm…applied for a position for a company in erm Leyton

Mmh

Erm, they were Radio veneers, and again still the theme, still keeping a link with the wood and what they tend to do was put veneer panels…veneer…erm veneers on a bit of hardboard, chipboard and…once they done that…we had to put it through a machine, get it sanded and it would go to…furniture companies to make all different types of furniture’s, cupboards, dressing tables, wardrobes, erm even doors as well, so

That job sounds quite artistic; do you think that was more creative?

Erm

I suppose it was more precise then XXXX

It, it was precise to the sense of…erm how it worked out, you had these big machines where you had to mix the glue

Mmh

Right, which was power and some other liquid and you, had this big press, heat press erm…the chipboard or hardboard went through a roller system…going through that roller system, then the resign, the glue would go over the…erm evenly spaced out…top and bottom…erm as it’s coming through the erm…erm…coming through the press…the conveyor belt, you then got your, one sheet of veneers, the veneers consist of erm oak erm rosewood erm teak, so many different names of different types of layers and it was probably about…I say one to two mm thick and you put a sheet that…one the erm…flatbed erm which was about…you know four foot by eight foot and then, there’d be two people who then as it’s coming through the erm conveyor belt, you just get it…pull it in the air, lay it on top, once it laid on top you made sure that you had enough of the veneer sticking out, all four sides then you put your top on, then it would just… em go through the conveyor belt go under the press machine and that’ll press it down, it’d stay there for x amount of erm minutes comes out and then you trim it around the side, pack it up so, it wasn’t…erm artistic in the sense to say you had to cut out anything

Mmh

It was pretty straight forward

Ok

But…after that, it’s sanded the reproduction of it looks very nice

Mmh

You know, you can, although we didn’t do any varnishing we just done the, the base layer of sanding it down, but you can see the beauty…beauty in things like rosewood in, in things the oak…the…looking at the grains on it, it was…you know it’s very pretty, if I can use that term

Lovely

You know and from there erm…I went to the present company that I’m…at now…which erm…still a connection with wood, it’s a company that deals with fine art and textiles…and erm I’m the manager at the warehouse which we have in erm North London…and erm…

Would you like to say the name of the company, if you able to, if you rather not…please, please don’t

I don’t mind saying the name of the company

[Laughs]

Erm it’s called Russell and Chapple

Ok

And I think this company has been in existence since about 1770

Wow

So, you know erm…they used to be based…in erm XXXX Street, just round the corner from Covent Garden…erm…and I’ve been…I’ve been there so long I can’t remember how long I’ve been there

[Laughs]

Over twenty years…so and erm what we deal…deal with is a lot of erm…art products…erm in the warehouse itself we deal with the erm…canvas…we’ve got canvas, linen…prime linen, un-prime linen, prime canvas, un-prime canvas, calico, muslin erm…there’s natural furnishing fabrics, there’s so many different things that we do there, it’s a pretty diverse erm, erm fabrics we use there and of course although, it’s aimed at the art, but there’s other fabrics there that people find different uses for erm for instance we have dyed cotton ducks where erm…people use that for erm, they do use it for national furnishing fabrics, they do use it for erm XXXX and also some people use it for clothes and even to make hats out of as well, so it’s…erm a quite enjoyable company to work for, I’ve enjoyed my time working there anyway…and we also do a lot of XXXX, XXXX are let’s say erm, four pieces of erm wood, which have erm got certain cuts in it, you put the…wood together, which forms a frame

Mmh

You then erm…get…either canvas linen and you stretch, stretch it round it and once it stretch round it, then the artist is ready to paint on it. Be it XXXX or could it…canvas itself could be primed and erm say for instance it ended up something like the pictures behind you

Yeah

So

I’ve got a couple of friends who are artists

Ok

So I'm quite familiar with them stretching their canvas

Right, yeah

They tend to make their own…

Yeah, yeah

But it’s a fascinating process it must be quite an interesting job for you to be working in that environment

Yeah it is, I mean…erm it’s good to…meet people who…keep getting the same stock, time and time again and it’s almost like going through stage, learning more about the person, you know…especially in this day and age, it good to see people still doing it, because…to be erm…from what I’ve…what I’ve seen, to be erm…an artist it’s not…an easy thing because unless you’re already established…there’s a lot of expenditure just to get the raw material together and product, so its’ good to see erm some of the clients who…some who, who can say are associates, who are still doing it and…you know, you just wish them luck and just…not just to keep getting the business, but…it’s like you’re growing with them and you know, there’s sometimes even now you get people who used to be at XXXX street, who used to buy their…who sometimes come down to the warehouse and…just something about them that you remember and then through conversation they remember you as well so you know, it’s pretty good

It’s nice to have those relationships with your customers as well isn’t it?

Well it is yeah, yeah because erm it’s…the shop is now in Drury Lane

Right

So erm we’re you know, no longer at XXXX so…that’s where people go…go now and, but where we are is the erm the warehouse which holds our, our stocks of canvas and linen, and so on and so forth…yeah but I’ve enjoyed myself

Good

And still enjoying my time there

[Laughs] which is the most important part I suppose, that you still enjoying it

Yes, yes

Ok lovely and when did you move to Barking then, is that why you’re in this current job or was it before?

No, no, no erm it’s a progression erm it’s erm meeting my erm wonderful wife

Ok

Then girlfriend, and it’s just a process of erm moving on in life and erm we moved here in erm February ‘91

Ok

And erm

Was your wife from Barking then originally or was she…?

No erm my wife was from Manor Park

Manor Park ok, and what made you both decide on Barking as an area?

You know I tell you what [Laughs] you’re going to laugh at this

[Laughs]

Erm council tax

Ok [Laughs]

[Laughs] it was at a time when erm…council tax at the time when it’s not something…the British public wanted to pay

Mmh

And certain areas, I mean…we…we were both in Newham…the cost of the council XXXX way were the cost of in Barking

Ok

I mean, we looked around in erm…Ilford and we looked around in Barking and erm…we looked at a few properties and we liked…liked this house erm made an offer and the erm…it was accepted and…we moved in

Lovely

And we were still friendly with the previous owners erm…they moved further down into Barking bordering Redbridge and erm I think eventually they moved out of Barking and we did used to keep in contact with them…so yeah XXXX yes

And what were your first impressions of Barking then, did you know the area reasonably well before you came?

Not really erm, erm my knowledge of Barking before I moved into Barking, it was well where I played football, there at certain times we meet at around about the erm Barking station

Mmh

And from there we just went to our destination wherever the game was being played erm I think when we moved in Barking either Vicarage field was just being built

Ok

Or was coming to XXXX I can’t quite remember all the details of it, but erm I mean in that period of time, in now Barking has changed itself…erm…when we moved into Barking there wasn’t…erm…it was so diverse as it is now erm…I think…over the years it’s become more diverse and every now and again you see different erm nationalities, cultures moving into the area which I personally feel is good because you’ve got erm obviously you’ve got…white English, you’ve got erm…black British, you’ve got erm…eastern Europeans, and it’s good to know that when you do go around at Barking area there’s all these little shops which, which cater for different nationalities, but at the same time anybody can go in there and purchase…you know goods, erm I think we’ve got Turkish, we’ve got Polish erm we’ve got African erm…those are the nationalities that I know for certain and erm, yeah…I just like the diversity of it, you know

It’s certainly one of the big advantages of living in east London isn’t it?

Yeah

That diversity and the fact that you can buy…you know you can eat African one night, and you can sort of Mediterranean the next night

Yeah, yeah

And you know it’s wonderful

And Indian and Chinese

Yes

Cantonese

[Laughs]

You know and not forgetting the chicken shops [Laughs]

Good old KFC [Laughs]

You know fish and chips, yeah you know, so it’s, it’s…I think…for sure if you’ve got…let’s say erm…if you’ve got two pounds you can eat

Yeah

You know, so there is a different in terms of obviously of pricing but if you’ve got two pound you can eat a meal

[Laughs]

Erm…and…as we’ve just discussed there’s lots of takeaways, lots of hairdressers

Yes

Erm…there’s not too…although there is two or three pubs within the same facility…erm in the town centre, but…from my surrounding of XXXX there’s a few pubs, I don’t think it’s too…erm too congested erm…I’ve noticed there’s a lot more betting shops now and it’s funny because when you think you’re in a area that is erm obviously since erm Fords have closed down…well not…there is a small part of Fords within the area, but for the…what it used to employ it used to be the biggest employer I would have thought in, in Barking erm you could say turn round and say in Essex

Mmh

And obviously

I think it was something like thirty thousand people employed at one point

Yeah, yeah so and once that cut down, because I think, is it just an engine plant, they keep

Mmh

I'm not quite sure, it erm…obviously changed the…the outlook on employment within the area…and I suppose in a way that started to put a lot on the community and in a certain degree a lot of white British started moving out of Barking

Mmh

Probably going further into Essex erm because obviously if there’s no work you’ve got to find work somewhere and erm once the money runs out you know, you is going from people just buying a property and then all of a sudden right work’s no long there…and erm I think again that’s a another thing that opened a doorway for the diversity for different minority of people coming in and also I think Barking is one these boroughs’ that caters for a lot of erm…XXXX what we have to do in the EEC part of erm asylum seekers, refugees, so on and so forth, so you know it…Barking does it’s part…in it…in a system, in that…erm quota, which I suppose all EEC members the…erm…yeah

That’s wonderful, and it’s one of the things I love most about Barking as well, that it’s so diverse so

Yeah I mean…this is why…I’d like to think…not that I’ve experienced it, but different...people have experiences that’s what I don’t think that erm racism will in Barking in itself because…where you’ve got a diverse amount of people, if you…you know if ever you’re walking around Barking, if you look and you can see the different inter…interracial relationships, you know…I think that’s’ what helps people to get along within the area and…in order for people to accept people, they need to understand people, rather than because you don’t understand somebody, you start taking a dislike to them and, you know obviously in terms of when it’s to erm voting time then you get all the propaganda starts with the BNP spreading malicious rumours, trying to erm…if you like whatever erm…say for instance the labour party at the time when they had the power, it was the labour party, they’re giving flats to black an ethnic minorities, I mean it’s all a lot of propaganda and obviously erm…when erm Mr Griffin had his opportunity to show how beautiful his party was obviously he fell flat on his face, but erm I think…not just…in Barking itself, I think in general diversity is something that’s going…it’s going to be here to stay because…if you think about how we get around the world…erm let’s face it, you don’t even have to leave your house, internet, facebook, twitter erm signed-in or whatever it’s called there’s the linked in

Mmh

There’s so many different ways of communicating with people, you can talk to somebody today, never meet them before…in your life and say ‘yeah why don’t you come over, next time you’re XXXX pop in’

Yeah

Before you know it, they’re around

[Laughs]

So you know erm…

Are you regretting being so friendly online? [Laughs]

No well…the thing is I’m erm so creative in that way, but erm in general I…I believe I’m a peoples’ person, so I speak to anybody anyway, erm but just saying in terms on how…if you look at the positive sides of diversity, that’s how I see…that’s how I see racism can’t overcome diversity because of how people communicate, get along with one another and you know people…different nationalities, different colours, different cultures will have relationships

Mmh

And you know, you’ve just got to accept it, you know forget about your prejudices, try to get to know the person, and…you just may find out you might learn something

Mmh, I like to think that a lot of that will start in the schools as well with the children

Yes

You know just getting along together, just being children basically

Well the funny thing is sometime they are like in school; it’s when they come out of school that’s when you know, it all depends what your parents are teaching you at home

Of course

If your parents are telling you know it’s alright to talk to that black boy, it’s alright to talk to that white boy, it’s alright to talk to Asian boy, that Chinese boy or girl, if you’re telling your children that, then your children will not have a fear of a different culture, different nationality and it will not be problem for them to associate themselves with, with people, but if you, if you keep one little prejudices, one little bit of racial erm content in your body and you put that onto your children is going to act XXXX as what you do, you know and it’s not going to act for the better, it all acts for the worst, you know, and you know the funny thing is in…as far as race is concerned, I don’t think it’s been told any different but the oldest…erm skeleton they found, was found in Africa

Mmh

So therefore the affiliations with Africa runs deep, so whether or not you’re black, white, pink

[Laughs]

Whatever get use to it…

I studied archaeology so I know exactly what you’re talking about

Ok

XXXX, if you’re interested

[Laughs]

But erm yeah so if you know everyone’s from Africa essentially anyways so, ok…well if…that’s fabulous, if that’s ok with you, if we can go onto Barking Park

Right, right my knowledge of Barking…which is not a great lot

[Laughs] Could you tell me your earliest memory of Barking Park if that’s ok?

Erm…my earliest memory of Barking Park is erm…when…I’m sure I played football there at one stage in my, my teens

Right

But I can’t remember a great deal of that side of it, but I do remember myself and erm my wife, we, we took walks from here walked all the way down Longbridge Road and into Barking Park and…from the outside you don’t realise how big it is, I mean I know there are other bigger parks, but it’s, it’s quite in depth because you look from, from erm Longbridge Road, but it’s actually when you go in and then you’re walking around the park erm…I think my favourite spot around that park was around the lake area where the swans, the ducks and…you know there’s a little island where if you’re lucky you might see them walk onto that erm people feeding the erm…throwing bread into…feeding them…erm…I can’t remember if I ever saw…got…saw fishes in there, but I would assume there may have been fishes in there, but you know walking around that…that area erm and then that takes you out onto erm…I think it’s Forest Lane

Erm, I think South Park Drive I think is the other side isn’t it? Is it South Park?

No I'm talking about the part that leads…Ilford Lane

Oh right yeah sorry

Yeah leads you onto Ilford…Ilford Lane erm…I can’t remember…about the flower garden, how vibrant it was, but I know when you erm walk around, around the lake I’m sure there was flowers around that side as well erm…now I'm sure there was…obviously there were trees there and so on and so forth, I can’t quite remember what type of flowers there were, but erm…coming away from that…erm say a few years later, then I did played…play football in there erm…in the 90s…and…

And was that for a team or was that just a group of friends getting together?

No that was playing…I can’t remember which team it was but, when I was playing for a team…I would have been probably…early twenties then…and even at the time I didn’t actually realise that erm it boarded onto erm I think the annexe part of erm…XXXX what’s the name of the school that boarders onto erm

Barking Abbey

Yeah Barking Abbey, yeah so they’ve got a nice facility there having that park there

Mmh, they actually use the park for their games and things, sometimes for their PE sessions and things like that so

Yeah, well you might as well take advantage of it yeah; erm and I do remember one time that myself and wife, we took our niece to a firework display there

Ok

Erm and…I think it was her first firework display and…it was nice to do that because we hadn’t experienced a firework display before…and to see all that colour, the sparks, and erm a large mass of people, everyone trying to get the spot they can get to, to see what’s happening you know, the Catherine wheel going around and just seeing all the sparks coming out and…you as being England at that time, yeah obviously it was cold

[Laughs]

And making sure you’re wrapped warm, and erm

So when roughly was this firework display, then do they every year or?

I think it’s done every year

Ok

Martin: Year yeah erm, I think when we went, that probably…that was in the 90s wasn’t it?

Possibly late 90s yeah

Martin: Yeah probably about ’98 something like that

But it is every year

Martin: Yeah

Ah right ok

Yeah they do it every year

Ok

Erm

Had the fairground on as well

Yeah they do fairground there as well

Ah

Martin: Erm did we go to the fairground one time?

It was the same time, when we went to…

Martin: Right, yeah had a combination of the firework display as well the fairground so erm, we may have taken her on a few rides as well, so but, it’s well utilised and its good cos…at time we have these big open spaces but it get’s lack of use

Mmh

Martin: And you can tell when park not’s been used because none of stuff get replaced when it erm ages erm I mean from here we’ve got a park called Greatfields Park and erm…they have fairground in there…ever so often, not every year, but…yeah they’ve had fairground in there yeah and erm when we got married, that’s where we had our photos taken

Ah ok

And that was in 1993…and you can see they spent erm spent some money in putting new rides, redeveloping the park and it’s a park I can its well utilised

Mmh

Martin: You know with adults as well as children and erm families going in there and erm even every coming, coming close to the six weeks holidays, when the summer starts, you have park rangers in there, that take activities into the park, into that park, so that’s’ erm…that one that is good because it’s…it’s XXXX it’s around and it’s open to the public bring your children you know they have erm paddle go karts, they have erm drums erm you can play games like erm tennis, football erm I’m not sure if they do rounder, either rounder or baseball and you know erm face painting…you know for a little park they do hold a lot of activities in that park and erm…

Do you ever take your activities at Barking Park, cos they have erm sort of like nature rambles and things like that?

You know we haven’t done that…

They’ve done that with the school

Oh they have through the schools

Yeah

The schools, erm our youngest child is participating in the school?

Yeah, did you enjoy it?

Martin: Mmh

And I went along one time that was good

Brilliant

Martin: And what my wife tends to do is…to get the erm…little booklet which tells you what activities are going on around so, you know we try to…always go to the one at Greatfields Park, that’s provided their not staying round, spending weekends round the family members in the holidays so…erm it’s a good line of activity over there and erm you get the other children going there, some of their school friends, so it’s, it’s really good, really entertaining, and it’s, it’s a good release for the children, cos sometimes you don’t want be coped up in doors all the time

Especially in the summer holiday

Martin: Yeah

[Laughs]

Martin: You know but its good and you…erm say for instance if it starts at eleven o’clock it may finish at three o’clock, so they do get a good run, run for it erm, yeah going back to Barking Park, there’s been a few occasions that erm…the four of us have gone over there…and erm I don’t…since it’s been redone, we haven’t been there for quite a while, I know they was doing a lot of redevelopment over there erm…because I think they got some lottery funding as well which helped to maintain it and they were working on the lake

Mmh

Martin: Lake there, so I'm not sure if that’s been completed now

Erm it’s in its final stage

Martin: Right

This oral history project is actually part of the renovation

Oh I see right

So we’re going to use some of these memories to create sort of a heritage trail around the park

Yeah, yeah, yeah

Erm so yeah the oral history project, is part of the renovations, I think they’re kind of their last phase now

Right

The lake is finished

Yes

That’s been drained and cleaned

Ok that’s good

And they’re going to put some boats back on there and things like that

Yeah they used to have a boating bit as well

Yeah

Did you ever go on the boating part, no?

XXXX

Boating bit

You know what’s going to happen to the lake?

Erm well they’ve cleaned the lake out now and they’ve refilled it erm hopefully, I think what they said they are going to do, they’re going to have like a floating dock

Ok

And so you can sort of walk out, so it will go up and down with the levels of the water

Yeah, yes

And so you can get on the boats a bit easier, then trying to jump on it from the bank

Yeah

Is what they used to do so erm, are you looking forward to that?

Yeah

Yeah?

Is it going to like…so it’s cleaned now?

Yes, yes it’s a lot cleaner then it was

So we can go there one day

Yes, yes I think some parts of it is sort of fenced off a little bit erm, but it certainly a lot cleaner then it was because, I think they had motor boats on it for a while and I think a lot of the oil and petrol got into the water unfortunately

Oh right mmh

So they’re sticking with rowing boats this time, which is more environmentally friendly

I think that’s a good idea

And a bit more active as well so [Laughs] that’s got to be a good thing

Yeah work up a sweat [Laughs]

[Laughs] and then you’ll get a new ice cream with the new restaurant and café, they’re opening in there

Ok that’s good

It’ll be a nice day out when it’s all finished, I think

Martin: Yeah looking forward to that

When is the official…do you when there is an official opening day, then?

In my head I had April erm but I’m not a hundred percent sure on that, I know we’re having a meeting with them erm sort of the end of January, beginning of February, so they can select materials to use in a exhibition and things like that erm and then obviously that’ll a couple of months and then they’re going to do a big launch and as you’re participating in the project, you and your family will be invited to the launch

Oh that’s nice

So there you go its worth it just for that isn’t it? [Laughs]

[Laughs] yeah

So you’ll be one of the first people to see the exhibition and the new visitor centre

Ok

And meet all the wardens and things, yes it’s going to be lovely erm they’re building sort of a purpose built classroom, as well so they can school groups and things

Well that’s good yeah

Or community groups can go in there and, and meet and have coffee morning and things, it’s going to be wonderful

Well you can clearly see just, I mean…apart from what you’re talking about, the park is well utilised

Yes

Because I don’t think that any weekend that I’ve driven past there, you don’t see people playing football

Thank you

Erm cos I think they’ve got tennis courts in there as well

Yes

And because at certain points you can actually drive in there as well, can’t you, I’ve seen people driving in

There’s actually a car park erm one at either end

Right

There’s one at the lodge entrance

Yeah

Erm where you go in which mostly for the bowls club, they mostly use that, but there’s also another visitor’s one at the other end on the South Park entrance

Mmh

Erm which is quite a bit bigger

Yes

Erm and I think its where people sort of park, XXXX planning on spending the day or whatever

Yeah

Although I’m sure a few crafty people erm just park in there and go into the station

Yeah

[Laughs]

Don’t tell the council that

No [Laughs]

[Laughs]

We’ll edit that bit out of it

Mmh yeah, yeah I’m looking forward to that

Good

Martin: You know because

XXXX meet up for his erm beavers and cubs meeting

Ah ok

Yeah outside the park

Mmh

The parade

Yeah

Oh they did their parade from there?

Yes

Oh lovely

They had their parade…church parades

Martin: And that good because you see everybody put the…publicans watching what’s happening and…

Yes

Yes

Martin: They have the escort as well don’t they? Police escort to…obviously for health and safety reasons, so it’s pretty good

Are you ok?

Erm like cos I’m into fishing

Yeah

Do you think you’ll be able to fish in there?

Erm I think the only fishing you’ll be doing down there is with a very small fishing net and jam jar [Laughs]

[Laughs] tadpoles

Get some little tiddlers to bring home, and sit on the…you know the kitchen window seal or something, but I’ll doubt you’ll…

Yeah

Be getting anything…big out of it [Laughs]

Martin: I don’t think it’ll be fair to have erm fishing in there because number one erm…when you’re fishing it’s all about the peace, quiet tranquillity and you don’t want to disturb, if you’re about to a bite, then somebody rides past, oh what’s happening?

[Laughs]

Martin: Fishermen don’t like that so, you know

Could you also like…in…cos I’ve noticed around our parks

Mmh

I remember in Greatfields Park erm, there used to be like a little pond

Ah ok

Yeah my dad took me down, mum took me down

So, could you fishing at that one or…?

No…you could go pond dipping

Ah right ok

Then you have to put the thing back cos that was only for the geese…

Ok

But there was like…and erm, will there be like, like mini activities where…cos in Greatfields Park now they have…every summer as my dad has explained

Mmh

Every summer they would have at least XXXX activity and trying to get people fit

Yes

Any age and like even parents can join in…so I think that’ll be a good idea for Barking Park

Yes, definitely I think that’s something they’ve definitely got in the pipeline to do as well erm they recently…you know they’ve sort of taken on more park wardens and rangers

Right

And things as well now erm and they do a whole host of sort of programmes for children especially

Yeah

And especially quite young children actually which I was quite surprised about, sort of…you know mini, mini nature ramble for three year olds and things like that

Oh ok

Which I think is wonderful, yeah, they’re going to do things like that definitely and I think they do erm sort of…nature detective type things, over the summer and…so I mean it depends what you’re into I think, I mean I’m sure there are sports clubs and things that meet there as well

Yeah mmh

Erm but I think the rangers are more focusing on the educational aspects where they teach young people about the plants and the animals

Which I think is good

Yes, yes definitely, so that’s a great thing I think about Barking Park…like you say a lot of the parks in Barking and Dagenham are pretty good about that, I mean the booklet, that you were talking about, I actually got a copy of that, when I went to an event and I was amazed actually how much Barking and Dagenham offer, because I don’t think it’s as extensive in other boroughs

Right

Erm with…I mean please don’t quote me on that cos I don’t want to offend anyone, but as far as I’m aware especially Waltham Forest, I’ve never heard of anything like and that’s where I live

Right

So yes and you’ve got some fabulous parks in Barking and Dagenham

Yeah

Lots of really…and you’ve got Mayesbrook…

Yeah Mayesbrook Park is…

Is that the one with the big…

Martin: There’s a big

I think that biggest park in the borough isn’t’ it? So whatever’s in it is probably big [Laughs]

Cos that backs onto erm Barking football ground

Yeah

Yes

That’s how…cos I like doing fishing and I want to know

Martin: You’d like to do fishing

I’ve done XXXX one

Right

Like I was…I want to know the best XXXX for fishing, cos like you get certain parks where you can actually fish out

Right

And certain parks where it’s say erm…like you can fish, you can look…but you have to put them back in

Right ok

Or you get fined or whatever

I think you know more about fishing in the borough then I do [Laughs] have you ever been to…erm on the…I know that in Barking Park they’ve got like a train

Oh yeah that train

Has anyone ever been on the train? Did you ever go on it?

I don’t if that was up XXXX when we was

Sometimes I go with my friends

Is that still up and running then the train?

Yes, yeah I mean at the moment it only runs on, I think during the summer it’s opened nearly every day

Ok

But the rest of the year I think it only runs on Saturdays or something like that

Oh lovely

But I think it’s a sixty p for…

A ride

A, a trip on the train, so its well worth doing as well, and it’s something a bit different because not a lot parks have a light railway

Martin: No, no, yeah XXXX fairgrounds XXXX something like

Yeah, yes

You know

What I was saying to one of the Park rangers, in actual fact, what would be nice is it ok

Oh of course, oh no that’s fine, that’s fine, erm it’s quite nice actually it makes it more interactive so [Laughs]

What I was explaining to one of the park rangers’ erm in watching the film ‘Karate Kid’ erm we saw erm you know these open spaces…park from what I could see and you had the elders doing that tai chi

Mmh

And their table tennis, and I was thinking, wouldn’t that be lovely to have something like that, you know all these different activities, and…they have different…erm, erm apparatus that they could do exercises and

Yeah

Young people, middle aged people and the children, everyone was just having fun, I thought that would be great to see that

Wouldn’t that be wonderful?

Funny thing you saying that…where Cassius went erm football training at star lane, they’ve got sort of miniature table tennis table

Yeah

Yeah

Where you can just play that so that’s, that’s

Yeah, I mean I know they used to have erm a giant chess set, in Barking Park

Right

Which unfortunately I don’t they’re putting back

Mmh

But it was one of those really ones where you had to hook the pieces and move them around

Oh ok yeah

And erm someone was telling me a really, really funny story actually cos children weren’t really aloud to play with it

Mmh

I mean it was mostly for the sort of older gentlemen who’d sit around on benches all day, just sort of playing the chess, but sometime they would take pity on the children

[Laughs]

Who were obviously quite interested and wanted to have a go

Yeah

So they would have a sort of play with it and then the park rangers would turn up and all of the children would sort of scatter

[Laughs]

In every direction, because they were terrified of the park wardens, but erm it would be lovely to have something like back and I think that would probably work, like you say you know to have that intergenerational sort of aspect of play

Yeah, yes

Together and spending time together would be wonderful

You often see a lot of people as well on their bikes cycling

Mmh

In Barking Park as well

Yes

You know cyclists and erm joggers and what have you so…yeah but definitely I thought that was really…quite a nice thing in the karate kid, that open space with all different generations just enjoying it

Yeah

Outdoor activities

I’ll suggest that to Andy, who’s the park manager down at the park, and I’ll suggest that to him and see what he says

I suggested it to the Greatfields Park ranger, but I don’t know XXXX it’s a good idea

Martin: mmh

I don’t know like for budgeting everything

Yes

If they, you know got…the financial capital to do that, but I think it’ll be great

I mean there’s nothing stopping erm a tai chi teacher…if I can say that correctly, a tai chi teacher

Yeah

Erm sort of you know holding sessions in the park and everyone kicking a quid or something

Yeah, yeah

To, to sort of donate to their cost of their time, but that, that would be wonderful

I think that would bring the community together as well

Definitely

Yeah that’s what it seemed to do in karate kid

[Laughs]

The whole community was just out there having a good time, yeah; there was all these different exercises, apparatus and I thought wow is that how it really is in China then?

It could well be, I mean I think some countries really do invest a lot in their public spaces, I mean I know erm Japan, sort of quite invest, quite a lot in their parks

Mmh

Ah

Because I had a friend who lived out for a year erm…you know I mean the UK used to, I mean I think it kind of fell out of fashion for a little while maybe [coughs] but hopefully…

They were selling a lot of the lands to property developers

Yes

But you know if…the, the trees…the even the weed, they suck out all…nasty stuff

Yes

To give us oxygen, so you know it’s not…we can’t tell people in Brazil, stop…erm you know dismantling the rainforest, if we’re dismantling what little forestry that we’ve got

Yes

You know

It almost seems like a little bit hypocritical, to…

Oh yes

You know now we’ve wiped out all our own forest, we’re telling other people what to do with theirs

Yeah

It’s kind of not very fair

…Two forests in Barking and Europe, isn’t it? Is Hainault in Barking?

No it’s in Essex

Well Hainault forest, yes

Hainault’s, the London Borough of Redbridge isn’t it?

Yes

So Hainault is technically I suppose kind of technically in XXXX

Yes though Barking Park comes under Redbridge doesn’t, I think doesn’t?

Erm no it does come under Barking and Dagenham

It comes under Barking oh right oh

I think just off the cut off point

The borderline yeah

It’d be kind of ironic though to have Barking Park in Redbridge, wouldn’t it? [Laughs]

[Laughs] yeah

Quite interesting, how would you explain that on the erm…address

Martin: If…if there was some kind of XXXX in there, they’d probably would, you know what lets change the boarders [Laughs]

[Laughs]

Martin: Dunno but…yeah I’m really looking forward to…when all the redevelopments finished

Yes

Martin: And we can go back over there

I like to appreciate nice gardens, so when I was over there with erm our son, wit the school and erm, you know saw a few squirrels, and yeah the garden were really nice, the beds and everything, really nice and colourful

Insects

Insects, yeah and we had…

XXXX, ladybirds

Yeah

We went on like a nature reserve hunt

Ok

For children, so that was good

Yeah it’s lovely

Martin: Not forgetting the foxes

[Laughs]

A lot of school

Martin: Sorry?

I haven’t seen that many foxes actually

Have you not?

Not lately

They mostly come out at night so [Laughs]

True

Nocturnal

Yes, sometimes they’re a bit bold and come out during the day [Laughs]

[Laughs]

And hedgehogs, we saw a dead one

Oh no

In the road

Yeah

Wasn’t quick enough, poor thing

Yeah

I like the way; I like Barking Park, a lot cos…I don’t play football in it but…XXXX cos I go to Eastbury and Eastbury is Barking Abbey’s rival and I guess XXXX that every time we play football on their pitch, it’s their home ground but we still beat them

[Laughs] that’s a god enough reason as any to have that for your favourite park isn’t it? [Laughs]

That’s their home ground, and like…when playing matches against them, it’s like kind of our home ground

Mmh

But I think…erm cos Barking Park is so diverse they need to…they could also think about having herb beds like…cos for some people that… include like more of the five senses, so people can’t hear, but they can smell and they can feel, some people can’t feel but they can probably smell it and hear it, so they need…maybe they should include like a little XXXX called the five senses

Yes

And like have things that you can smell and feel and touch

Have you been to erm…the Valance House museum, by any chance?

Long time ago

Because they’ve got a little sensory garden there, where it’s all kind of different smells and textures and things and that actually would really work well in the park wouldn’t it, that would be lovely, yeah maybe you should right them a letter, I can pass it to them if you like? [Laughs]

I’ll suggest it to them

Yeah, that would be lovely

The other one has a garden

Yes

…to appreciate the local and…like you know, as someone suggested, that would be nice

And that’s why you know the parks in London are so important cos so many people live in flats and things like that

Mmh

I mean you’re very lucky here, you know to have a house and I’m sure you’ve got a garden and things yourself, but I mean, I’ve got…what could very generously be called a yard, [Laughs] if you want to, it’s literally a five foot postage stamp, so…gardens are quite important I think, and green space

It’s nice…you know, we’re quite fortunate that it’s just across the road, well Greatfields Park, Barking Park, just a bit further down

Yes

But erm even not the station is getting a facelift so, you know the…Barking station’s getting a facelift and further down past…

Martin: Mmh

It’s got the facelift so it’s nice; I think it’s nice for the community as well

Definitely

When you go to the city…you know into London, you see their parks…you know erm…it’s well kept and everything and you know good gardens and…so it’s nice, it’s…locally that you can appreciate

I mean like I say you know Barking and Dagenham seem to do well with their parks so erm

Martin: mmh yeah

I think, I think maybe XXXX participated in erm the gardens…I think…I’m not sure if they participated in the Chelsea flower show

It’s quite likely I know there’s a very big erm nursery by central park in Dagenham

XXXX

There’s a really big erm nursery there and they provide all the flowers and things for the entire borough

Martin: ok

Erm so it wouldn’t surprise me at all if they were entering competitions like the Chelsea flower show and things like that

And also like I know, we’re talking about parks, but there’s one little place where, it could like erm like, you know the XXXX, the curly wurly where if you just go…it’s near XXXX Road

Ah right

And erm even that’s not a park, it could be turned into like a little family centre

Mmh

Not as…like building like a whole family centre, just like lawn mow the grass like throw away all the rubbish…I wouldn’t mind volunteering

[Laughs]

Like throw away the rubbish, I have to get consent from my mum and dad

[Laughs]

Throw away all the rubbish and just make it into like a little garden, but then you could have little clubs

Yeah

XXXX, so like you might have tennis, table tennis on one side; all sports stuff one side, maybe not football because the space isn’t big enough

Mmh

But like table tennis, they might have like a mini gym

Maybe five side football though cos those pitches are quite a lot smaller five a side ones, these are all good ideas, got a future town planner here haven’t you [Laughs]

I was thinking as well, like when you said about the curly wurly bit, is it the XXXX you’re referring to?

Yeah you know that green where you got the football…

Yeah, the open space yeah, there’s a bit of an open land and I was wondering who it, because surely they can that bit more attractive as well

I mean, I have no idea who owns it

Yeah

Unfortunately

Yeah, but it did cross my mind, I’m going to make enquires about that because I remember reading a article in the voice newspaper…a young erm boy came up with the idea to…have an attractive erm…you know open space…to make it a bit more attractive to the community

Right

And he applied for a grant funding…his application was successful and they did like erm…you know nice garden bed and…you know it was really, really nice

Ah that sounds lovely

Good for the community, like I said there’s many a parents and erm…elders who pass…cross that football to get to the other side of Ripple Road

Yes

And it would just be nice to have something more attractive to look at

Yes

When you’re going across

Or you know just stop for a little rest or something you know

Yeah, yes cos I think got a few benches, not too far over the other side

Right

So…just as you’re walking by, just to look at it, I think that’ll be nice

Yeah, that’s a brilliant idea, I mean anything that sort of pretties up a city is kind of a good thing in my book I think

Martin: Yeah definitely

Yeah, definitely and even the foot bridge you know Barking…this end of Barking got many foot bridges…so it’d be nice to erm have those look a bit more attractive

Yes

Rather then just…grey backgrounds and

There are some erm I think it’s in South East London actually, but I’m going a bit off track here

Yes

But I’ll edit all this out afterwards erm but there’s a really nice erm sort of Walkway Bridge, it’s quite near the O2 centre

Ah

And they’ve done some really fantastic I think, I’m not sure if it was school children but it was it was obviously some sort of graffiti art group

Martin: right

You know young people

Martin: yeah

And it’s the most fabulous mural

Yes, that’s what I thought

I know people are a bit against graffiti but if it’s done…you know

Martin: properly yeah, yes

You know tastefully

Nice and it’s you know it’s in a place where it’s ok for it to be then I think it can be quite…

Martin: yeah

And it’s more appealing for young people I think to see that kind of art work

Martin: yes

Definitely

Then something a bit more

Yeah cos everything someone does do a bit of graffiti you just see a big grey patch that you know…painted it out

Yeah

And I think surely you could make that bit more attractive

Yes or even leave the original graffiti there, would have been better then a big blob

Yeah it’s so dumb

Martin: that’s a point…I wonder…I don’t know what…if there is any erm…free space but maybe that might be an idea for Barking Park, if they can have an art wall

Mmh

Martin: you know and possibly say erm I don’t…probably every couple of months you have a competition whoever wins the competition

Yeah

Martin: they can then either paint that art work within that wall area and…

Get the young people to do…like get involved

Martin: yeah

Yes and you’ll find as well if you do art work like erm that people are less likely to vandalise it

Martin: well that’s right

Because people, people tend to do the sort of silly graffiti on…

Martin: yeah

Blank walls and spaces, so if it’s already got something quite impressive there

They’ll appreciate it more

Yes definitely well that’s just my opinion [Laughs]

I do agree with that yeah

Cos there graffiti, a lot graffiti in our school

Oh is there?

But my teacher allows it

Right ok

…my head teacher…cos he knows what’s it like, cos he works with a lot of young children

Mmh

And there’s a lot of children who…like are going thorough a hard time and like they just do graffiti, they might graffiti on the wall, right next to my teacher’s door, he says ‘ok you can do graffiti, but it has to be positive’

Yes

Cos

Well that’s a really good message isn’t it?

But also how…how like know that their work is being appreciated, not just…oh it’s just a piece of spray, it’s a spray can

Mmh

And different colours coming out of it, it’s just rubbish and just painting over it, they’ll actually think well this guy’s taken a lot of time…like I used to walk erm channel four…erm this little program with artists and they used graffiti and they erm…like would do it on a blank wall, like a wall like this for instance, doesn’t spray over it

Mmh

XXXX and…it’ll just hopefully catch people’s eyes so people would be walking and just stop and admire it

Mmh

And then after that if they like it they might have like…order this or you can buy…and a little price…

Oh right so you could buy copies of that artwork you mean, ah well that’s a really good idea isn’t it? Quite often you’d sort of be walking around and you’ll see something you like and you think

Martin: mmh

Ah I’ll never own that, but with idea you definitely could, couldn’t you, go and get a postcard of it afterwards or something

Martin: yeah

Yeah definitely

It’d be lovely, is there anything else, anyone would like to say about Barking Park or Barking or anything else?

Martin: erm

Barking I would say is a vibrant community and its growing all the time and flourishing and it’s nice to erm…you know in Newham for example it’s quite visible…as a tax payer where the money is being spent

Mmh

Newham has always been very visible with that and I’m just thinking to myself now on reflection Barking is now coming up, yeah they’re not there yet in the sense of Newham

Mmh

But erm slowly but surely, thank god it’s not visible as to way our money as tax payers is being spent and I think that is a good thing for the community

Definitely

Yeah and you know new resources…they’ve got XXXX erm resource centre that they’re building and yeah I think that’s going to be good for the communities, for the young people

Yeah

Martin: they’re going to be extending or rebuilding Abbey sports centre

Yeah that’s going to be I think knocked down…

Right

Martin: Sorry

Goresbrook leisure centre is going to be going; I think they’re going to building a new leisure centre in Barking where

Martin: mmh

By XXXX street

Right ok

So that’s going to be a good thing for the community

Martin: they’ll probably have to build up

Yeah

It’s all XXXX in Barking isn’t it? [Laughs]

It is lots of things are going on, yeah and I’m just thinking I mean next year is a very important year, lots of different

Olympic borough

Martin: yeah

Yeah well I was thinking because …if we’re Olympic borough well I’m not sure if we’re going to be hosting anything in our borough

Erm I’m not sure if Barking and Dagenham is actually hosting anything, but I think there are things going on here, I think there are kind of cultural events

Martin: mmh

And activities happening in the area

Ok

Erm as part of…you know as the Olympic sort of celebration

Yes but I was thinking also the Queen’s erm…diamond jubilee celebrations

Mmh

Coming up

I don’t if we’re going to be having any street parties if there’s any money in the…the kitty for them to…

Yeah

Organise any street parties but for example I know Newham are going to be organising some and also with the Olympics coming up, XXXX there’s going to be erm celebrations going on leading up to the Olympics so, I don’t know if our borough’s going to get involved with that and also we’ve got a very good erm…our local church, the salvation army

Mmh

It’s brilliant, you know it’s erm it’s erm…leading by XXXX excuse me dear you can’t stand right there

[Laughs]

Thank you, it’s leading by example by erm…you know it’s engaging with the community from the elders to the…our generation to the children, and then they’ve got lots of different activities that XXXX and yeah it’s a lovely place to be part of, in our community, our local church

Yeah, ah fantastic

Yeah got some good things going on

You do find as well, I mean I’m finding this more sort of common now especially churches are coming to be more about their community again

Definitely

Martin: yeah, yeah need to be…

Which I think is also one…cos it used to be the case and then it kind of all fell away a little bit didn’t it?

Martin: right

And it’s all…you know, I’ve been to several church groups and tings and they’ve got so many activities for their young people and their elders

Martin: yeah

Yeah

It’s so wonderful to see, it’s really good

Martin: well the thing is no longer, I think…erm I think a church is somewhere, where you’re suppose to go erm fell tranquil, erm…most obviously thing you pray to erm…ask for forgiveness, guidance, protection, leadership, but…gone are the days you shut that church door and it doesn’t open again until Sunday, it has got to be a community thing so that people can see that it’s open for…it’s XXXX so that you can go there to read, you can go there to play, you can erm hold other activities and

Coffee mornings and things, you know they’re lovely…

Martin: well yes, yeah and not only that…bringing the, the old with the young you know getting them to erm mingle and other

Bond and yeah

Martin: bond, communicate and…you know what I do like about with the Salvation Army, there is a strong link between young and old and to, to see that’s it’s good that…old people, mature people can walk side by side with somebody whose fifty years younger then them, but still feel comfortable within their presence

Mmh

Martin: whereas when you listen to some of the crime that’s happening

Or the media

Martin: the media, how the media portrays things sometimes…a mature person would not want to be anywhere near a young person, but…this is the sort of thing where…with the Salvation Army, there isn’t no…erm gaps there

Barriers

Martin: everyone is as one and…you can have a laughs and a joke with one another and teach one another things, and I think where, where all churches that’s what they should be doing

Yes

Martin: you know don’t close your door on Sunday and say ‘right mass is finished, see you next week’ no you know

And last week we celebrate our hundred and thirty eighth anniversary for the Barking XXXX

Wow

So that is quite erm a good track record

Definitely a hundred and thirty eight years wow

Yeah you know long may it continue

Good for them

Yeah definitely

Good for them definitely

Yeah it was really nice, we had a nice…erm…luncheon you know three course…that was provided by some of our church members, so it was lovely to be part of that

Good

Yeah so all in all it’s very good

Martin: I think whatever happens, is going to happen to the future of Barking as far as the erm councils are concerned, whatever they do, they’ve got to make sure, they include the community erm it’s good to have outside investments coming in here, but don’t let the outside investment take all the wealth out…you’ve got to spread wealth within the community…in doing that, the area will grow more and erm where say people may have a dislike for Barking, will start to like Barking again

Mmh

I love Barking [Laughs]

XXXX Barking, I mean I used to work in our local community; well I still do, and erm you know many people used to say oh there nowhere nice to shop and things like that now erm…but you know, I think we have got some good tings and sometimes, it gets a lot of bad press

Mmh

You know

I mean it’s kind of really hard to reconcile sometimes that people have this impression of…you of Barking and Dagenham or East London in general

Mmh

Martin: mmh

You know people general think oh it’s a little bit run down, it’s a little bit this, you know I’ve lived here for five or six years now

Martin: yeah

And I love it…like you were saying vibrant

Martin: yeah

Here and you know it’s diverse and…it’s kind of al little of everything all rolled into one, I love that about East London, I think it’s got a real distinctive character, which I think…

And our local market as well, we’ve got our local Barking market which is nice

Yes

And erm…

I brought some great gloves there last year

Martin: [Laughs]

I’ll have to go back down there again this year I think [Laughs]

Martin: yeah I think erm Boris may have missed a bit of a step with the erm Olympics because there’s a certain part of East London which they’ve gone round

Mmh

Martin: I think that…if you want people to see you country, you got to let people see your country as it is and not just show the fancy parts of the country, you show how people are actually living because you never know if people can see how people are actually living the good and bad, that’s what’s going to help a country to grow, that’s what’s going to bring investment into it because somebody can go in a run down area and think you know what…I’ve got an idea where I can bring employment into this area, I’ve got a product that could work in this area, but if you’re going bypass this area, and just go to the fancy places, you could lose an investment which will bring erm…businesses and erm you know take people out of that poverty, that they’re in so…that’s one thing that with the erm…the Olympic committees when they were mapping out what areas they’re going to thorough, there’s certain parts of Canning Town, or that area where most of the Olympic steps will be going and even when they’re doing some of the marathon part of the Olympics they’ve dodged some of those area, I think they should

XXXX they’re not doing it in East London at all anymore

Martin: yeah well

Which is a real shame I think

Martin: it is

And I think a lot of people are quite angry about that

Martin: yeah

Yeah

Because it was a promise, you know that the marathon would run thorough the street of East London, then end up in the stadium, and that’s not going to happen now

Martin: which I think is wrong because…basically you’ve taken out the heart of East London really haven’t you?

Yes

Martin: you know

Well it’s a bit of a slap in the face, really isn’t it?

Martin: yeah, mmh

You’re not pretty enough to be on camera [Laughs] to the world’s media, so therefore, you know and East London, got such XXXX I mean I’ve been working in…oh sorry I’ll probably turn the tape off actually before I’ll start rambling, but erm thank you very much for the interview, I really appreciate it

Martin: you’re welcome

[TAPE ENDS]

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Martin Pierre

Project: Barking Park Oral History Project

Date: 9^th November 2011

Language: English

Venue: Interviewee’s home

Name of interviewer: Claire Days

Length of interview: 1:22:09

Transcribed by: Paris Sydes

Archive Ref: 2011_esch_BaPa_12

2011_esch_BaPa_13

2011_esch_BaPa_13

Could you tell me your full name?

It’s Mary Ogden just that.

Right and can you tell me when you were born?

I was born on the fourth of July 1928 in Oldham in Lancashire

Oh so you’re a long way from...

Yes you might, yes well yes that part that is why I remember Barking so well because my father was building houses not, it wasn’t his firm he was working for a gentleman who bought the land and had surveyors and one thing and another but my father was the practical one and so he was building in different areas and when ever he built we had to move with him, so we came from Oldham in Lancashire which is a few miles outside of Manchester then we went up to Cumbria into country, he build houses there and then from Cumbria we came to Barking. I was three my brother was four and another brother was seven or eight something like that. Anyway so my poor mother had to pack up the cottage where we were living in Cumbria, my father had already come down to start the estate in Barking and my mother had to pack up the cottage get everything, well there was a van obviously, and the boys came down with my father and my grandmother. My grandmother lived with us, she was in her late 70 then, and my mother and I came down on the train from Cumbria. Now I had never been in London before, my mother hadn’t funny enough, she had never been outside of Manchester or the Cumberland area, and she was terrified. I didn’t know at the time she was, to me it was a great adventure. I was 3 years old, we came to Barking, now there was six of us, three children, my grandmother, my father and mother, and we had a two bedroom house which wasn’t very convenient only because it was backing onto the building site and any spare moments that my father had, he took us all in to Barking Park

Ah

Which was quite a walk from where we were living in Ripple Road near Ripple Road? So from being three, Barking Park was very important to me because we were there as a family you see and everything was going on there. There were swings, there was water, I never whet in the swimming pool but my brothers did, I whet in the paddling pool, but at three I wasn’t you know up to the big lido as they called it. We went on the boats we went on the paddle boats we went into the restaurant, ice creams, the swings, it was, well it kept us xxxx and I think it gave my mother sanity to get her out into the air and away from this little cottage and the building site; we were on the building site. So Barking became very, Barking Park became very important and I was in a push chair, mind you I think I could have walked but I was lazy, and one day we went there and it was oh it so exciting there were bands, there were men dressed up, there was oh all kinds of things going on, decorations up, um streets all decorated, parties going on and oh to me I just thought it was wonderful you see and its afterwards I thought well I wonder what was going on then? Well I think it was a Charter, it must have been 1932.

Right

It was no earlier, certainly wasn’t any later I think it was 1932 and I think Barking got its charter, a charter, as a borough. Anyway there was this big do in the park and I can remember being pushed down this long avenue with beautiful trees either side and a war memorial towards the middle, and then there was the lake, but there was the mayor and all the people dressed up and there was a real party atmosphere and I never really been told what was going on but to me it was exciting and thrilling.

Yes of course.

And next time I went I was very disappointed because they had all gone, but the park was there. So that was my very first remembrance of Barking Park

Of the charter.

Now the next thing was very different because the war came in 1939, the war came and the park was closed, the South Park Drive end was closed to us, and the army moved in and they had a very large what you call it heavy anti aircraft barrack barrage, I think they called it, anyway they built a lot of brick buildings, like rough looking buildings actually they went pretty by any means but they for the troops you see now they had to live.

Oh they actually lived there

Oh yes, yes they were all there and whats more they dug huge pits to put guns in you see. The guns were set into concrete and brick, now what do you call them really, like ditches, and then of course the guns were covered up with camouflage, and they were guarding London. That was before the war started when they were planning it, they also dug a lot of trenches for people to hide in if there was bombing and they knew there was going to be bombing. And so I think the park was actually closed, if not wholly closed partially closed for quite along time about the time the war started in 1939, and so the troops moved in and that was exciting because I was 11 by that time and my mother said, “Now don’t you go to that park not with them soldiers”. You know they were much to busy to bother about me but she wasn’t to keen and so she said, “Don’t go in that park on your own”. “I’ve got the dog”. “Never mind the dog you not going in that park”. So that was it, and that was as I said the whole of the war that was you was under restriction anyway.

Was it closed all thought the war?

Not completely oh no, no, it was just while they were building that but you there was still restrictions you see, and so then in 1943 by that time, I had left school, how I got any education in the war I do not know because the schools were all evacuated at first and so on but somehow I managed.

Were you evacuated?

No never no, no my father and mother decided that if we going to get killed we would all get killed together, we had an air raid shelter, that’s why I was showing that young lady were we slept all the war and never got a cold, in the deep shelter, no. Anyway 1943 I had just started work in the city, felt so grown up, 14 and a half I was, felt so grown up to be allowed to go and work in the city. If I’d have known what it was going to turn out I’d would have stayed at school but there you are. So my friend who been to school with me all the time, we went together, if I was with Vera we walked, that meant we were early enough to walk to Barking station, but if I was a bit late or something like that we would go on the bus from Longbridge Road you see, going to Barking station but this particular day, it was a beautiful morning and we decided we would walk, and we are walking outside the park on Longbridge Road you know where the bushes are?

Yes

Well there weren’t so many bushes in those days, they were planted but they were you know small, and it was March anyway so you know there wasn’t a lot of cover, but anyway Vera and I were strolling, strutting along chatting away like ever and suddenly all hell broke loose. The guns went off, and that particular morning six German planes had got under the radar from Germany or Holland, Holland I think they come from. Holland of course by that time was of course was coved by the Germans you see, and so was France, 1943. There were only 20 miles away across the channel, we were pretty close to be invaded ourselves, but anyway this six planes smallish planes, bomber planes, they got under the radar at half past seven on a lovely sunny morning, and they were making for London, and that’s why the Barking guns where there you see to protect London, the docks, and London itself. And the guns opened up, and of course nosey here stands in the middle of the path looking and there’s this German plane so low I could see the black swastikas on the wings. Now my friend although she was the same age as I, had a lot more common sense, she shouted at me she said, “Get down you fool, get down”, and she gave me such a thump between my shoulder blades that I went down onto the verge were these shrubs were. I had no chose as I say she just gave me this great punch between the shoulder blades and there I am lying on this earth, nose to the ground, she’s by the side of me, and that noise, the sound of the aircraft, and the guns, and I suppose others. I don’t know what other noises, and I'm lying there on this ground still not realising the danger that we were in and I'm thinking that’s funny all those wormholes, where are the worms, and I’m so worried looking for these worms. They were tracer of bullet holes, we were being, we were being shot at, as we lay on the ground, because you see we weren’t covered by bushes then, now you wouldn’t see us, but it was pretty much you know clear earth, and there was I dozy as ever, saying, “That’s funny, look at those little holes all around me where they coming from and then...

Were you frightened Mary?

No, I thought to my self this is odd and I'm waiting to see what Vera said about it because she know most things, and I looked then to the left and the bus that I could easily have been on had I not be walking with Vera I could of easily have been on that bus to Barking station cause it was only one penny you know in those days, you could ride on the bus 240 times for a pound which wasn’t bad was it?

No it wasn’t was it

Anyway the bus that I could have been on was lying on its side blazing from head to foot they’d strafed the bus, and within I suppose ten minutes the whole thing was over. The plane had gone, the guns stopped, we got up, dusted ourselves down and went on to Barking station, and whet to work, the pair of us. It never occurred to us that, you know we ought to have gone home or anything like that. And I said to Vera, “Vera what were those holes?” She said, “What holes?” I said, “You know, when we were lying on the ground”. She said, “Those holes you dummy were tracer bullet holes, we were being shot at”. I said, “Good job they didn’t hit us”. So we went to work.

How old were you then Mary?

I was fourteen.

Fourteen

We were both fourteen, fourteen and a half actually, but fourteen. So we got were I work, I worked a newspaper office, I was only the run about but I was in a newspaper office and Vera was a little up market, she as a training college for what we would call computers now, but they called them comptometers in those days. So when I got to work of course I'm telling somebody at the work what had happened and she said, “Well don’t you think you ought to phone your mother to tell her that you’re alright”. So I said, “Well not really, she wouldn’t know, I’ll tell her when I get home”. She said, “You had better get on that phone and tell your mother she’ll probably be having hysterics knowing whats happened and you were on your way here”. So I phoned mum I said,” Mum”, she said, “Oh it’s been terrible here”, she said, “There’s been bombs dropping”. I said, “Where?” So she told me on the corner here, and said those two little girls are dead, and I realised then I’d been living in a dream for that last hour or so thinking oh well you know it was just a little bit of German coming over. So she said, “Its not one plane, its six have been”. And she said, “There’ people being killed all over the town”. So she said, “You’d better come home”. So I then said I must go and tell Vera, so I went to Vera’s college which was in the centre of London. I was at Fleet Street end and she was up somewhere past the law courts, and so I asked if I could she her and she was in a class, so I said, “Vera I think we ought to go home. I've been sent home because there has been some bombs dropped in our roads and I think you better come with me”. So now she had been so calm when we laying on the ground, so calm pushing me down and telling me you know to be careful and that sort of thing but when she realised that the house directly behind hers had been bombed and the person was killed in the house, she went to pieces, the shock you see had hit her. So I brought her home this time, left her with her mum who was also badly shocked. All the windows had gone from the house and everything else you see and then I came home here and my mother of course couldn’t believe that I could be so calm about it, and I said “I wasn’t being calm I was just stupid you know but it was a dreadful raid and it happened so quickly. All the six planes got hit, they were all captured, I don’t think the men were killed I think they came down by parachutes or something but, but it was a dreadful experience and that was Barking park. And now if I'm on the bus, I don’t walk that way I can assure you anymore to Barking station and I look at those shrubs and of course they full grow now they’re trees, and I think I cant believe it happened but it did, it was the twelfth of March 1943.

Were you living this side of Barking by then Mary

It was almost opposite, well it was past Fanshawe Avenue, no from here before you get to Fanshaw Avenue, you know where the park keepers house

Yes

Well I don’t think it is a park keepers house now is it?

No its no

Well anyway you know there’s a house facing Longbridge Road and there’s the big gates, and then there’s the long avenue isn’t there that goes down to the lake and then there’s an avenue at right angles, well we were about there, and as they say, they had, the German planes were, they knew that the anti aircraft battery was there, they were deliberately shooting for that, and that’s why they hit the bus because it was about opposite where the troops would have been, but they didn’t hit the guns at all, I don’t think the guns could have done anything for them because the plane was too low you see.

Right.

Because the guns were very big guns really for shooting right into the air, but this plane was hardly roof top height and I think there were about ten, twenty people in Ilford were killed that morning and it was all over in ten minutes.

Yes, so quick.

So as I say that's, oh but then, that isn’t the end of that particular story, the war ended in nineteen forty five, the men came home from the war. Most of them had got families, they needed homes, there was a terrible, with the bombing, terrible shortage of home. People were living in, with relatives, sleeping on the floor, sleeping in air raid shelters, one thing and another, and a few young men who’d been home from the army, not necessarily demobbed but home on leave. They said, “Barking Park, all those billets for the soldiers”, the soldiers had gone by then you see, the guns had been dismantled and taken away. But they still got barbed wire round the place and you know keep out and army commands and that sort of thing. So these young men fresh from the army, they said, “Look at those barracks, standing empty, they’ve got all mod cons”. They asked the Council. The Council said, “It’s nothing to do with us it’s War Office”. They asked the War Office, “Nothing to do with us it’s Barking Council”. So the men said, “It’s something to do with us”. So they got together and they broke down the walls of the barbed wire, they forced the gates, they took over the barracks, they moved in as squatters. You’d have thought the war had started again. Barking Council, the War Office, the ARP, all the people, people that lived there said, “We don’t want squatters, we want those things cleared away”. And these men said, “Look we’ve been fighting for our country for five, six years, we are homeless, we are moving in”. And there was a real stand off for about two years but they got their way. They worked on them themselves, they didn’t get any help from the Government or from the Council, and the Council were trying to get them out all the time. So the young men who had got families said, “You build us houses and then we’ll get out but not until you build us houses.

And how long were they there for Mary?

Well it must have been at least two years.

Really.

At least two years possibly more because then they built, there was so much damage you see round about barking and East Ham and so on, they built a lot of prefabs.

Right.

In different areas which went up very quickly, they said they were only going to be up there for about five years but they stayed about twenty [laugh]. And they were alright.

They were, they were.

But we had neighbours across the road and her son was one of those squatters and I went to see how comfortable, I didn’t see their, I didn’t go into the barracks but he got one of these prefabs, and he and his family, and I went to the prefab and they were lovely, lovely little places.

Yes, yes they were.

It had two bedrooms and a living room and a kitchen and a bathroom, a little garden all the way round, and they were really very nice.

Yes they were and they stood the test of time didn’t they.

But of course they have all gone now. Yes absolutely. So as I say after that Barking Park well I didn’t go in very much then because by that time I was grown up and had other things to do and so on. The war was over and people were back and of course another thing you see they dug up most of the flower beds to grow vegetables and that sort of thing so they had all that to reinstate.

Who grew the vegetables then?

Well the allotments you see.

Oh they were turned into allotments.

They have still got the allotments there, oh yeast the South Park Drive end of the park you see there but as I say the other excitement of course was when they had the fair, twice a year it came there. That was another thing my mother said, “You are not going to that fair, all those people there”. I said, “Mum there not likely to steal me are they? I’m not likely to be taken away by the gypsies”. So she said, “No”...

I was never allowed to go to fairs [laugh].

“And make sure you lock the door when you come in because they are all thieves and vagabonds”. The thieves and vagabonds were not the people who run the side shows they were the visitors. We did have, at one time we did have a lot of housebreaking went on. But as I say it wasn’t the people who worked on the fair it was the people that went to the fair, lost all their money on the side shows and then came and robbed people’s houses you see. But we did, but I don’t know that it happens today it’s not like the same, I don’t know, I’ve never heard of anybody.

How often would the fair, you said they were twice a year the fairs?

It use to be once a year but I think it’s twice now. It use to be in September, end of August beginning of September when they had the big fair, they had a carnival procession, they had a Barking carnival queen and they had the procession all the way down Longbridge Road and they had the crowning of the queen and all the rest of it. We always went to that you see, but I don’t think they have it now, I’ve not heard for a few years that they have a carnival queen anymore but they still have the fair. I t goes twice a year I think now.

Can you remember the tea rooms that were there?

Oh they were lovely, it was a wooden building like a big xxxx, it had a veranda around it, and I think they served food but mostly it was ice cream and cake and sweets, that sort of thing, but I think they did actually do catering as well. Very nice toilets, and as I say they really did go to a lot of trouble to make people comfortable. The boats and...

Did you ever go on the boats?

Oh yes, yes, I only ever went, now that doesn’t speak highly of my brother, the one who was a year older than me, I suppose I would be about nine and he would be ten, and my mother’s sister came down from Oldham in Lancashire and she was a typical, well she was my aunt but I thought she was a very old lady but she obviously wasn’t, and my grandmother still lived with us you see, here in this very house, as I say all this has happened since we were living in this house. All these stories that I’m telling you happened around this particular house. So my grandmother...

So your parents lived here?

Oh yes, yes, I’ve been here ever since, nearly eighty years I’ve lived in this house and when it was first built you see my father built it, it was one of the houses he built. Started at Longbridge Road and worked through and built right up to Goodmayes Lane and then built another estate on the other side of Ilford you see.

Right.

And so my aunt came down, my mother’s sister, I don’t think she had been to London ever, my mother had never been until we had to come down here. So she was staying with us here, so grandma and aunt Emily took us to the park, and the dog, not my eldest brother he was at school or he might have been working by that time. Anyway we went and auntie or grandma provided the few pennies so we could go on the boats, this is the children’s lake, that's the South Park Drive end, it was a children’s, much shallower water you see, and they had paddle boats and they had rowing boats but they were child size. So I’m in the paddle boat, my brother George was in a rowing boat, and we were shuffling backwards and forwards by the edge of the water and auntie and grandma were sitting on the seat watching us. Well my brother drew his boat into the small wall; the jetty for getting on and off was the other end, South Park Drive end, so my brother calls out, “Auntie let me row you around the lake”. So my aunt said to him, “Eh Georgie I can’t get in that little boat, it’s not for ladies”. “Oh that's no trouble”, he said, “Come on get in and I’ll take you around, I’ll row you around, all around you’ll love it”. So my aunt said, “Eh no I don’t think so, I don’t think that boats big enough for me”. So he said, “Oh grandma often come in don’t you grandma”. I don’t know what grandma said but she certainly did not go in that boat ever. Then he said to me, “Mary you tell auntie to get in the boat, not yours, she can’t get in yours but tell her to get in my boat and we’ll all go round the lake”. Well I joined in, I said, “Come on auntie, come on”. She was reluctant, very reluctant, but eventually with the two of us she got in this boat. Well she was about twelve stone quite that, he was about five, four stone; he was smaller than I was. Well the boat practically capsized, it couldn’t move, it didn’t move, he was putting his oars in and they didn’t touch the water because the boat was at such an angle. So my aunt’s sitting back, the number of the boat was behind her you see, she’s sitting back and she said, “Oh it’s nice isn’t it, oh it’s lovely, I didn’t think I could get in”, she said. Grandma’s still sitting on the seat looking nervous and I’m laughing and giggling and turning the handles you see on my paddle boat and I was aware that the man who was in charge of the boats was shouting and he’s calling out “Number fifty six”, or whatever, I can’t remember what the number was but he was calling out a number and he’s shouting out and aunt Emily, who wasn’t really a simpleton but she came across that day as being very simple, she said, “Eh Georgie whats that man shouting for like that?” “Oh he’s calling in one of the boats, that's alright auntie nothing to do with us”, he said. She said, “He’s making a lot of noise, he sounds very angry”. So George is trying to row this boat but he can’t get the oars in the water, so we are more or less by the side of the path you see. Well this man put on his waders and he came walking through the water, and when he got to us he gave my poor aunt such a telling off. “You stupid woman”. “Eh but my little, my nephew said it’s quite safe”. “Safe, you’re ruining the boat, your capsizing, get out immediately”, he said. So he pulls the rope right up to the edge and he makes her get out. Well of course we children were rolling out trying not to be seen laughing because we thought he was so angry he would probably push us in the water or something. And grandma was her shaking her head as if to say, “I don’t know who these people are, I don’t want anything to do them”. And so of course we all came home you see and mum gave us both a ticking off, she gave my aunt a ticking off for being silly enough to take notice of him, she gave grandma a ticking off for letting us do it, poor grandma had no choice, she just sat there all the time, and my aunt carried that story for the rest of her life. She use to come down once a year and she said, “If either of you children think I’m going into Barking Park with you lot”, and the dog was there too. So that's why I can remember a lot about Barking Park.

Did your mum settle into Barking?

She loved it.

She did.

Now that was very strange because as I say she lived in Oldham, Lancashire, she was born there, she lived there until she was forty, forty one, something like that. Then we went to Cumbria, Penrith, and she loved it there. She was in the country and people were very friendly, we only lived in a very old cottage but the people were very friendly, my mother was a very friendly person and with her soft accent, her Lancashire accent, people, your much too young to remember this lady but she was called Gracie Fields...

Oh I do remember Gracie Fields.

She was on television, no not television, there was no such thing as television, on the films. And my mother spoke just like her, so as soon as my mother opened her mouth people would say, “Gracie Fields”, and so on. So you know she was, she’d laugh you see so she was accepted. Well when dad’s firm bought this land in Barking and she told people, her relatives and friends and so on, that we were going to London, she called it London, everybody called it London but it was barking, and they said, “In London, you won’t like London”. They had never been. “Oh you won’t like London, they are horrible people, oh no, no, you won’t like it at all, oh don’t go”. She said, “I’ve got to go Harry’s jobs there”. And of course in those days the depression was on, the big depression, we think it’s bad now but believe me it was a lot worse then. So she said, “We’ve got to go it’s our living”. “Oh you won’t like it, oh they’re awful, they’re standoffish, they won’t talk to you, you’ll be very unhappy”. All her neighbours and her friends up there. So she said, “Well I can’t help it, I’ve got to go where Harry’s work is, and he won’t go without me and we have got to have the job and the children”. So she was really scared, and as I say she brought me down on the train from Cumbria, just the two of us, I was only three.

And even to do that must have been quite frightening for her.

It was, it was tremendous for her, she had never been anywhere like that before. They went to Blackpool for holidays you see which was quite close and she knew everybody and they all spoke the same, and Blackpool it was like we would go to Southend.

Yes to make that journey on her own with a small child.

And she had had to pack up the furniture, the furniture was going down in a van and she had had all that to do. When she got there, we didn’t know what sort of a house we had got, when she got there, there was this little tiny house, two bedrooms, and I don’t know whether the furniture had arrived before we got there I can’t remember, but we had to sleep there, whether we had beds that first night I don’t remember, but we had to live there. And all dad did was to walk down the garden onto the building site you see, that's why, we didn’t buy the house the man who owned the land bought the house for us to live in just because it was convenient you see to the building site. So all dad did was to get out of bed, have his breakfast, walk down the garden onto the building site and he was there all day, well he would come home for some meals but poor mum was stuck there with three children and an old lady.

Not knowing anyone, not knowing the area.

A completely strange area, told it was a dreadful place...

Even before she’d left Oldham.

But you know June within a week she knew all her neighbours, she knew the shops, we had a corner shop and a real open all hours this corner shop, Mrs Mitchell run that, I remember it to this day, and I could go to it even though I was only three, it was just on the corner you see, not much traffic about, and my mother would say to me “Go to Mrs Mitchell’s and get me...”, whatever, and I’d trot off, I don’t think we had the dog then, I’d trot off with my pushchair, a doll’s pram or something, and I always, apparently I always bought back what I was suppose to. She would give me the money and she’d say, only three, “Now bring back the change”.

It seems incredible now doesn’t it?

Well that’s right.

A different world.

And I was so proud, the fact you know that she trusted me and I went and got half a pound of tea or whatever it was you see. And mum would say, “Now where’s my change”, [laugh]. “And what are you eating?” And I’d say, “Mrs Mitchell gave it to me”, [laugh]. So as I say, but within a week she had settled and she knew everybody and she said, “I don’t know whats the matter with them but they have never been”.

Yes we all have preconceived ideas.

She didn’t use the word prejudice but that’s what it was, people say these things, so we were there...

Do you remember moving into this house Mary?

Well we were there for nearly two years, oh you might not want to hear this, I started, when we first went there I told you I was three, my brother was, three and a bit, my brother was four and a bit, there was only fifteen months between us. We were living in this little house, I suppose was difficult as a three year old can be, perhaps a bit more because of the unsettling, one thing and another. I don’t know what I had done that particular day but I had done something awful, I don’t know, but anyway there was a girl next door and she was eight and she took me under her wing, and she came home from school, the school was only two doors away, still there. Edna came home from school and I was in disgrace for something or other, she wanted to play with me and mum said, “No she’s been naughty”, and one thing and another, I don’t know what mum said to her but the upshot of it was that Edna washed my face, combed my hair, put me on a clean dress, I mean eight years old they love to do things like that, put me on a clean dress, or put me on a dress, I don’t know what it was, and took me to school. Apparently my mother had said, “Oh get her out of my sight”, she really had had enough of me. Take her to school, get rid of her, I don’t want to see her again”, something to that effect you see. So Edna took me to school, only next door but one. Now I remember it ever so well, I wasn’t happy about this woman, so we went into this school, I’d never seen a school before and Edna spoke to this lady and the lady said to me, “What’s your name?” So I told her, she said, “Where do you live?” So I told her, so she said, “How old are you?” So Edna said, “She’s five Miss”, well I was a big kid. So I said, “I’m not, I’m three and a half and I’m only here because my mum said she’ll kill me”. So this woman, she was the headmistress, I didn’t know it at the time, she said to Edna, “Edna is this true?” Well Edna couldn’t deny it you see. “Well take this child home and tell her mother to look after her”. So I was expelled.

Before you even started [laugh].

So I probably got a wallop when I got home, probably Edna got one too [laugh]. That was, I don’t know what time of the year that was when we went down, it was in the summer time and I was three in the July, and this was probably in the school holiday’s time and by the time I was five we were still there. I had my fifth birthday in July and do you know my mother sent me to school the next day, she couldn’t get rid of me soon enough. She sent me the day after I was five and I didn’t like it very much and I suppose I remember that first time you see when I had been expelled but I had one week at that school and then the holidays came, July holidays came, and we moved here in the August. So I started at South Park School in the August you see. I didn’t get expelled from there, I nearly did but...

To the relief of your mother [laugh]

I run away actually, I run away from there. Well I run home actually, I did go back the next day but I let myself home, nobody missed me, no, nobody bothered.

It was a different world wasn’t it.

Probably glad to see the back of me, I don’t know. I let myself home, I’d had enough, I just walked home. Those days you see, nowadays everywhere all the school gates are locked because of the intruders. Isn’t it terrible to think that children have to be locked in and they won’t let the children home unless the parents are there. We use to wander home backwards and forwards ourselves, there was no restriction on us at all. Yes I let myself, I bought myself home, mum saw me in the kitchen, she said, “What are you doing home this time of the day?” I said, “The teacher said I’ve got dirty hands and that I’d got to go and wash”. So mum said “You didn’t have to come home to wash”. So I said, “Well that’s where I wash”. So mum said, “Well you can’t go back today, you can’t go back now”. So the next day I thought am I going to get into trouble because I went home without permission but nobody missed me so nobody said a word.

So you were alright [laugh]

So I got away with that one.

Mary do you remember we were told that they had dances in the park, they would have a band in the summer?

Oh yes

Do you remember?

Oh I never went to anything like that but they did oh yes, oh yes that’s what I say they had all of this. Everything was going on in the park

Lots of activities wasn’t there?

Yes there was but going back to when we actually moved in here, we moved in here the August bank holiday weekend and on the Sunday my father said he would take us three children down to Water Lane to the school. The school was closed, it was a Sunday but it was the school holidays anyway you see but he said I’ll take you down and show you where the school will be when you go to school next term. All three of us went to the, we were due to start at the same there was the infants, juniors and seniors then at South Park School so mum was doing the dinner and Dad took us down with the dog, down to South Park to have a look, we didn’t go into the school it was all locked up but we saw when the school was so on the way back we called in at South Park, do you know South Park?

No I don’t

Well it’s about 10 minutes, less than 10 minutes walk from here so we went into South Park and my two brothers had a ball and they were playing with the ball. So we were with dad walking through the park and the park keeper came on his bicycle and he shouted at the two boys “stop that” and my father said “what’s the matter” and he said “they’re playing ball” so my father said “well it’s a park” “you can’t play ball on a Sunday” so my father said “what on earth are you talking about, it’s a park they’re playing ball they’re doing no harm” so he said “you can’t play ball in the park on a Sunday, I’m telling you, so stop it” so my father said “I’ve never heard such nonsense, you can do anything in Barking Park” so this park keeper said “Barking Park? Huh this isn’t Barking this is Ilford and you don’t play ball on Sundays in Ilford” so my father said “you can play ball, you can play cricket, you can swim, you can play tennis in Barking” “that’s Barking” he said “that’s not Ilford” so that was the difference.

Looked down upon

And Barking you could, there was everything going on in Barking Park as you say, bands, brass bands. There was the big bandstand and they had concerts there, they had, as I say it was a community?

Were they free, the concerts were they free?

I don’t think, I think sometimes there was a collection, I don’t think you paid no. But if you wanted to sit down they had chairs around the bandstand and people used to wander about, we took it for granted you see it was lovely, very well looked after.

I was going to ask you about the gardens

Oh the gardens were beautiful; we had to be very careful. We weren’t allowed the play around there no. the gardens were beautifully kept but that was away from the playing area you see, the playing area was mostly level with Longbridge Road. The flower beds were in the long path running up to the boat house and also level with the lake they had these by the war memorial and so on. They had these beds with you know styled red white and blue all of that sort of thing

Oh yes yes

But it was very well looked after, it was a feature and we were very grateful to have it. We took it for granted I know but so different to coming to South Park where I say you were under so [clock chimes] that’s the clock. You were under such restriction you see, Ilford was snobby. When we moved, that was another thing, the 18 months we were in Barking when mum said “we’re on the move again” and they said “where you going this time” and she told them we were coming here and they said “that’s Ilford” “oh” she said “you won’t like it in Ilford, you won’t like it” she said “oh they’re snobby in Ilford it’s all pride piano and poverty in Ilford, the three Ps” [laughs] they all call Ilford the three Ps.

The three Ps

Pride, Piano and Poverty. And she said “lace curtains, got no furniture” she said “no furniture in their front room so they put up lace curtains so you can’t see it” how they knew all of these things I don’t know but you know they were right because when these houses were first built my father, as I said, built them and he was very proud of them and they sold them and actually a lot of them were sold in this house because my father working for the firm knowing the ins and outs of it he was the company secretary as well, I don’t think he got paid for being the secretary but he was, his name was on the deeds you see as the company secretary. People used to come and sign up for their houses here in the evening because they couldn’t take time off work in those days they were very restricted job wise so knowing that we lived on the estate there were houses in the next road and that sort of thing they would come, I expect my father would tell them that “if you can’t come at weekends to sign up come to my house at a certain time and you can do it there” and they often signed up in our dining room, in this very room on our table so that they didn’t lose the time off work you see, so people moved in. well they were on a very short budget, a very very tight budget, nearly all of them a lot of them were young married couples, they could just about raise the money for a deposit and they had a mortgage but the mortgage was the same part of their income as it is now really. If you earned, then people were paid weekly, if you earn less in a week than your monthly payment to the building society you can’t afford it so if your building society it was about a pound a week for the mortgage well if they earned less than three pounds a week they were going to be in trouble so they had to earn perhaps four pounds a week and their mortgage was three / four pounds a month.

Would they have had to have put a large deposit down?

Not a lot no, some got in for about twenty five pounds you see if you could afford more it made it easier for your mortgage but I think twenty / twenty five pounds was a lot of money, it was a lot of money then and they didn’t take any money that the wife earned into consideration if she worked they ignored that so it’s a lot different to how it is now. But they only gave you one month grace, if you missed your mortgage payment one month you got a notice of quit and you were out. So people used to be told to be very careful because you could lose it if you lose your job or you buy something so of course they didn’t buy furniture for their front room but they put up lace curtains so that nobody saw that the room was empty.

Did you mother like the house when she came here?

Did you mother like the house when she came here?

Yes she did, as I say we didn’t intend to stay had it not been for the war the firm would have built in different areas but the war came and the other estate that dad built, I don’t know if you know ilford at all going towards Woodford, off the Woodford avenue he built and estate there, bigger houses up market as they say now. They were four or five bed houses there well, he could do that with travelling because it’s only three or four miles but after that estate they were going to build out at Warley, the war came and government commandeered the land at Warley and built and airfield on it so we never moved.

I bet your mother was relieved wasn’t she?

Well by that time the war of course had claimed my eldest brothers life and things were never quite the same after that and my brother had laid out the garden, my eldest brother had laid out the garden and mum looked upon that as being sacred so she was here and died here and dad was the same.

I can understand that

And I’m still here, talking your head off [laughs]

I’m sure you’d like a cup of tea though wouldn’t you, I’ve laid out a tray just in case.

[TAPE PAUSED]

What I wanted to ask you was about the park keepers, do you have recollections of the park keepers and their uniforms, were they smart?

They were all in uniform yes and bicycles. They all had bicycles, they were in uniform but it wasn’t particularly smart but we knew they and of course the fact that they were on bicycles because we weren’t allowed to drive bicycles around the park. They could but we couldn’t. but they were never in vans, they are now aren’t they, with dogs some times.

Were they strict?

Oh yes, very. We were scared of them, we really were. The parky we used to call them “careful parky’s here” but we really did mind our p’s and q’s with the park keepers. Both at South Park and at Barking.

Do you remember the lodge house?

The lodge house? Oh yes that was very smart wasn’t it?

It was yes

In South Park, I think, it got bombed. Yes it got a direct hit during the day and the park keeper’s wife was killed, yes it was a direct hit. Every time I walk through, I don’t walk through very often now, but I see the site where it was its all bushes now and they built another one on the other side of the park but I always remember that day when I saw it in total ruins.

You mentioned the war memorial, is that in Barking Park?

In which?

The war memorial, is that in barking park?

Oh yes there is one, there’s not one in ilford, in South Park, but in Barking. In Ilford there’s one in the little park by King George hospital that’s still there but in Barking Park it’s facing Longbridge road, I don’t know what condition it’s in now and that long avenue that runs level with parallel with Longbridge Road

Right

So about the middle…yeah

Right

And that

Did they have a service there on…?

Oh yes, yes

On Remembrance Day?

Yes there was always a service there for…I don’t know whether there still is but always a service for…memorial on Armistice Day

Yes

And we were taken to it with my father, was an army man

Ah right

And he made sure that we, we went

You’d go

And we stood to attention and behaved ourselves

Yes

There was no messing around for that no and the scouts and all the others organisations, they all…erm paraded and so on it was…

Right

It was all done very nicely

Yes and what about the railway, did you ever go on the railway?

No I don’t remember it when I was a child, I don’t think it was there, I’ve taken lots of children onto it

Right

Since I’ve grown up

Yes

But I don’t think it was there before the war, no

Ah

I’m sure it wasn’t no

Probably built after the war

No I’m sure had it been there we would have known

Yes

But erm, but I do remember it being there and taking erm friends children to see it, but I never went on it myself

You…oh you never actually…

I’m sure I would have done had it been in my generation

Yes, what about wildlife do you remember like…?

Well squirrels, a lot of squirrels

Yes

We didn’t take a lot of amount of notice [Laughs]

[Laughs]

Though we didn’t have the Canada geese, now they are messy things aren’t they? There were no Canada geese

Oh right

When I was a child, no I don’t think they come into England at all

Right

They’ve been imported since the war

Oh right

There were certainly no Canada geese

Right

And now they’re everywhere aren’t they?

Yes they are

But there were ducks, lots of ducks on the pond

Did you feed the ducks?

Oh yes, yes that was a great treat yes and erm there was big ducks and little ducks and more hens and…so on

Yes

And erm we never took nests or anything like that but erm we certainly didn’t see any other…and the squirrels, they were always around

Right

And as I say we usually as children we nearly always had our dog with us, so there was lots of…he would chase them

Yes

Mind you we were suppose to keep him on a lead, but he would chase anything that was chasuble and erm so but erm we didn’t study erm wildlife in the park, I mean some people did, you know people…I’ve seen people you know writing in a notebook when they’d seen certain things but we didn’t, we just played

Yes

It was just some…

What games did you play in the park did you…?

Chasing I think [Laughs]

Just running round

Yes that’s right, I was never, I was never sport minded but my eldest brother belonged to the tennis club there

Oh of course they had tennis courts there didn’t they?

Yes oh yes

Yeah

They play and erm I used to sometimes go and watch him play, I never played myself I don’t…I still don’t know the rules actually but he was very keen and erm

Did you have to pay for that or…?

Oh I think so

Yes

I don’t think it was very much but I’m sure they had to pay

Yes

They had to book

Right

And I’m sure if they booked they’d have to pay something, but it was probably only coppers

Yeah

But erm they had to book mmh

Yeah

And they had to play properly…they wore their whites

Oh really

Oh yes [bell ringing] it would have been erm considered right to go in anything

Right

Other then white flannels

Yes

And erm jumper or something like that

Yes they look very smart there

Oh yes they did

Yeah

They took pride in it

Yes, was there a tennis club there?

I don’t know I don’t remember

Mmh

No

I just wondered

No I don’t remember, I do remember...mum being, well I suppose I’m getting a bit ten or eleven, something like that, don’t go in the toilets on your own there might e somebody in there you know not nice

Yes

XXXX the word sex attack would never...

No that was never mentioned

...interfere with you

Yes

You know that sort of thing, we were warned and there were always people...I say always, we were always warned there might be people, men

Yes

That would, you know not very nice people

Yes, yes

But the words were never used

No, no

The word sex never ever came into my generation

No

But erm it was always this interfere; don’t let anyone interfere with you

Yes

Now remember don’t get talking to people cos they might interfere

Yes

And I don’t know they meant really

No [Laughs] we were very naive weren’t we

Well we were yes, just as well I think really

Yes, yes

Children learn too much about that too soon don’t they?

Yes, yes they do

Mmh

What about...somebody mentioned a life size chess set that adults could play, but only the adults...wonder if you...

No I don’t remember that at all

No XXXX

No, no that’s something...I think after my generation, but...

Yeah

I don’t remember that at all

And what would you like to see happen...erm to the park, like when...the renovation, what would you like?

Well it would be nice if, if there was like a club room or the elderly people

Yes definitely

Erm, I mean if the tea room is there they would you that

Yes

But erm like a sort of day centre erm because there are a lot of elderly people living alone, they don’t want it for nothing

No

But somewhere where they can be sit and warm I mean you don’t always want to sit out in the cold

No

On a park bench, but if there was like a club room or something like that, that where they could erm you know...mix

Yeah

And have a scrabble or something like that

I think that’s an excellent idea Mary

I think it would be, it would be

Yes

Very much appreciated and erm not too far into the park because if you’re not walking very well you don’t to have to walk the whole length of the Long Avenue, if it was somewhere sort of nearer to Longbridge road

Yes

Where they could pop in, when they’ve done a bit of shopping and they’re tired

Yeah

They could pop in for an hour or two, it’d be rather nice

Yes that would be

You know little drop in centre

Yes that, that’s an excellent idea Mary it really is

Well you think of these things when you yourself are getting older you see

Yes

I mean when you’re young you never think of that, why do I want to sit in the shed in the park you know

Yeah, but...

Run about, climb trees

They’re going to cater for children

Oh we couldn’t climb trees did you know that

Oh really

Oh no, no oh no

Strictly off limits was that?

Oh absolutely

Yeah

Not allowed to climb trees no

Yeah and obviously, what about walking on the grass?

I don’t think they minded

Right

Except round by the flowerbeds

Flowers

But there was, there was...I never remember being told keep off the grass unless of course we were near the war memorial there, but then we wouldn’t anyway cos we had to be respectful

You were brought up not to do that

You see you were brought up to...but otherwise they weren’t nearly as...strict as were in South Park they were...it was a bit of a...I think the main park keeper there was a bit of a bully

Right

And the staff had to...go his way

Yes

Cos he was...they were very strict Barking was much more relaxed

More friendly

More friendly in every way Mmh

Well it’s been lovely talking to you Mary

[Laughs] oh I’ve enjoyed June

I’ve really enjoyed listening to your...

As they say it was a...it was a good time

Yes

You know there wasn’t...we didn’t have...I think the most pocket money I ever had at that time was a shilling

Really

A week and...

What did you used to spend it on?

Well it wasn’t a lot you could spend it on because sweets were rationed

Yeah of course the war

You see and erm...I can remember saving it up and buying...something silly...I brought a carpet sweeper

[Laughs]

Funny for a child to buy a carpet sweeper wasn’t it?

Yes [Laughs]

But...I was intrigued with, with this wooden carpet sweeper and I brought it at Blake’s corner there was a big shop called Blake’s and it’s where Boots is now

Of right yes, yes

Exactly where Boots is there, that was called Blake’s corner and erm...I had all this, I think...it was only about a pound, I think it was that way

That’s a lot of saving though

I had this money all in...Shillings

[Laughs]

And...I was out with my mum and she said to me ‘what are you going to spend your money on?’ and I came home with this carpet sweeper, we had it for years

[Laughs]

I loved doing it you know what I mean; all over the...I wasn’t house proud but it...made a nice noise

Yeah [Laughs]

And I was running up and down the hall with it you know

I bet you mum loved that [Laughs]

And I thought to myself afterwards what a strange thing for a little girl to buy

For a little girl to buy

I was so proud of it

Yeah

The handle unscrewed, long handle, unscrewed and it had like rubber buffers oh it was, it was good I mean there’d be about thirty pound today

Yeah, yeah not a pound anymore

I was so proud of that carpet sweeper [Laughs]

[Laughs]

But as I say sweets, we couldn’t buy because they were on ration

Yes

And erm I don’t know what else I did with my money, we didn’t have a lot but erm

No

But didn’t need a lot really cos mum feed us you see and we didn’t go on buses and so on but erm, but it was

But you enjoyed Barking Park

Yes well as I say it was so close

Yes

And oddly enough erm...we had no problem about crossing the road...cos you see from here you got to cross South Park Drive

Yes

To get into the park

Yes

But erm I don’t ever remember

Not too much traffic

Any restrictions on us

No

But erm no crossings as such but erm there was an amount of traffic then you see

No

Like there is now, but I, I don’t ever remember being told ‘you mustn’t go cos you can’t cross the road’

Yeah

Cos we...and we were usually...not on our own you see there was usually several of us

Yes

Went there

Little groups

Rounded groups but it was safe, never felt unsafe, I never ever felt unsafe in the park...which I think is good

Yeah

Cos it’s you know a nice feeling...if anything had upset you, you’d avoid going again

That’s right, that’s right

But erm no as I say erm...when I went, I went to stay with friends in Canada a couple of times and they couldn't get over...they came over here to...they couldn't get over the fact that we had railings round our parks

Oh right

They don’t there

No and they always have erm fence round their gardens do they?

The parts of Canada I was in western Canada

Yeah

All the parks were...you just walked off the pavement

Yes

Into the...but somehow when I came back I thought oh I’m glad we’ve got railings

Yeah it would seem strange if we didn’t have yeah

Mmh and when, when the war...they took the railings down you see...put wooden slates or something

Right

Because they took the railings for the war effort

Yes

And erm we couldn't wait for they put them back again, we liked the railings

Yes, yes we do don’t we? [Laughs]

Yes, yes we do yes fences and railings

Yes it would seem very strange

Whereas in Canada and America they think we’re odd don’t they

Yeah

They don’t have railings and front paths or

That’s right

Well they don’t have front erm gates do they

No, no they don’t

Just drive straight in

Yes

But we didn’t like that, no when it was like that in the war, we couldn't wait to have thins back

Yeah

With the railing round

You’ve got some lovely memories Mary

Well as they say

Of the park

It’s only when you’re asked about them, that you remember it you see

Yes

We took it so much for granted

Yes

I think that’s what it was; you take life so much for granted

And you think it’s always going to be there don’t you?

But, but children miss so much today, I think

Mmh

It’s sad really that children aren’t allowed to do those sort of things, I mean no way would my mother have allowed us to go in as the conditions as they are today

No

You know

No you’d be frightened

If we begged and prayed, she would say no and I can’t go with you cos I’m too busy

Yeah

Or mother’s at work you see

Yeah

You don’t go and play in the park

No

And we knew why, I mean now a days children know why

Yes

We didn’t

Yeah

Our mum would say ‘no, don’t go talking to anyone they might interfere with...’

Yes stay out of the XXXX [Laughs]

We had no idea, we had no...I mean, not the slightest idea what she meant

No

But we knew we mustn’t do it

Yes

But now a days they know thy know all the facts

Yes

Too well don’t they?

Yes it’s sad

Mmh

Childhood is very short now a days isn’t it?

Yes that’s right yes it’s very sad that children are only too aware of what happens

What’s going on

And erm it’s sickening

Yeah

But I think that’s an excellent idea of yours about how some...

Well as I say

A drop in centre for people

But there’s something only somebody like myself would even think about because you, you think to yourself well I do go into Barking for shopping and if I meet somebody, you don’t always go in a tea shop

No

Erm but...erm walk through the park and have a sit down and a cup of tea and a chat with somebody

Because the park is for all ages

Well that’s right yes

And when you look at the park you’ve got the things for the children, you know you’ve got things for young people so you know

You wouldn’t dream of going on your own into McDonalds or somewhere like that

No, no

You see, I mean the only time I would ever do that was say I was waiting...for an appointment or something like that

Yeah to fill in the time

Fill in the time for half an hour or something like that, but if it was the park, you’d meet somebody

Yes and really it’s not about the tea

Oh no

It’s about the chat isn’t it?

It’s meeting people, that’s right yes

Having a chat with somebody

And a sit down and to feel that you’re, you can meet with friends

Yes

That’s right like a little, a little...club house or something

I think that’s an excellent idea

But sadly

It’s all about money isn’t it?

It’s about money and the vandals, you know there’s always a fear that people would burn it down or

Yeah

You know...scribble all over the walls or

Yeah

Urinating it or something

Yes

Make it smelly or something like that, cos that’s what they do

Yes

Isn’t it? Unfortunately

Yeah

It wouldn’t be, I mean in South Park they burned the...they burned the bowls place down I think two or three times

Oh

I don’t think they’ve got one at all now there, it’s been deliberately

Yes

Torched

Yeah

And their refreshment room was torched years ago

Really?

Mmh but erm it’s such a shame

Sad yes

You get just the odd...two or three

Yes spoil it for everyone

And they spoil it for everybody don’t they? Mmh

Well thank you for talking to me

Oh it’s been a pleasure June it really has

I’ve really enjoyed it; good I’m glad you enjoyed it

Well I...

[TAPE ENDS]

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Mary Ogden

Project: Barking Park Oral History Project

Date: 9^th November 2011

Language: English

Venue: Interviewee’s Home

Name of interviewer: June Andrews

Length of interview: 71.14

Transcribed by: Shannon

Archive Ref: 2011_esch_BaPa_13

2011_esch_BaPa_14

2011_esch_BaPa_14

Ok should be on now

I still might miss a few things

Ohh[Laughs]

The louder you can speak the better

Ok, right, erm could I just ask you to say your name please?

Yep, I’m John Golding

And can I just ask you to say your date of birth for the tape?

Yep, 5/12/43 of December ...43

Erm, can I ask you what’s like your earliest memory of Barking Park is?

Er, I think it must be at the Lido, or Leedo, ha we called it the Lido [Laughs]

[Laughs]

I think most people called it Lido, yeah, I remember seeing that. Erm and a little paddling pool next to it.

Oh

Well it was outside of the paddling, outside of the Lido. But yeah I remember sitting in the Lido, dunno how old I was ‘bout four or five perhaps six. And er, yeah I was with me mother, she used to take me over there quite a bit. And I remember sort of being in the Lido and bein’ fascinated by the blue, I think it must’ve been a blue tie all sort of round and the blue

Mmmhmmm

The er, swimming pools and the reflection of the water, you know the blue, and....I think there were fountains there, I think

Ok

You know

Erm, did you use to go to the Lido a lot? When you was young?

Er, probably every six, eight weeks perhaps?

Ok

Erm, we probably went there, in there each time, we went to the park, but it’s frustrating, because I couldn’t do anything in there.

Oh

I was too young, and me mum couldn’t swim, so she couldn’t take me in there.

Yeah

So we just use to sit there and I, yeah I was watching everyone enjoying themselves. I think she liked it just for the atmosphere

Hmmm

Erm, but it was always frustratin’ that I couldn’t, sort of do anything there.

Oh, did you use to go in to the children’s paddling pool as well?

Yeah, yeah that was my limit [laughs].

[laughs]

Er, yeah I’ve got good and bad memories of that. I’ve only got two memories and they were both quite profound. Erm, the bad one was erm, when some boy or a boy threw a milk bottle in to the paddling pool and I was nearest to it. And I don’t think it was ‘cause I was a xxxx at the time, you know doing a good turn. I tried to pick it out, thought it’d be easy, just get hold of it and put it on the side

Mmhmmm

But because of the reflection in the water, I think they call it refraction

Yeah

Is it?

Mmhmm, I think so.

And it wasn’t where I thought it was

Yeah

And as I put me hand down, I gashed me finger

Ohhh

But fortunately there was a St John’s Ambulance

Yeah

Stall, hut there.

Hmmm

So me mum took me over to them and I s’ppose they put a bandage or a plaster on it.

Yeah

And xxxx it xxxx me up to the hospital which she did when we got home in Plaistow.

Mmmhmmm

She took me up st Mary’s hospital and er, I dunno what they did to it but whether they stitched or not. But er, yeah that was a, a bad memory. [Laughs]

[Laughs]

And then, there’s probably lots of other times just straight forward paddling in there but, but more humorous one was er, when me mum took me and me cousin over there, xxxx xxxx girl cousin, she was a year younger than me, so she woulda been about seven. And she fell in the paddling pool

[Laughs]

Got her clothes wet, so my mum made me take my pants off

Yeah

So she could put them on, and, and I, well I had me shorts on so I wasn’t naked

[Laughs]

But I think they were itchy, itchy shorts

[Laughs]

So er, I, going without me pants with only cheap shorts, but again it wasn’t far, you know it wasn’t for long

Yeah

But there erm, yeah they’re my only two memories of the paddling pool

Oh, erm during the summer was the lido really packed, when it was in the summer?

I can’t remember, I’d imagine it was, but I can’t remember people as much, I just remember the er, I suppose the architecture of it

Ok

You know, what-, I didn’t appreciate at the time particularly, I mean I suppose it was art deco but er, I know I just like it, you know, it was bright and clear and clean looking all round you know

Yeah

And the noise, you know lots of excitement and

Yeah

Fun you know.

Erm, when you was younger erm, did you use to play any sports or anything in the park?

Sports?

Yeah

I did in the streets

Ok

Didn’t do anything over the park, that I remember and, but yeah it’s always sports when I was a kid. In fact I wrote a song about it [laughs].

[Laughs]

About playing in the streets, you know called it, the street with no cars

Yeah

And, it’s based on a song that’s, well was a hit at that time called a pub with no beer, a humorous song and then years late-, or xxx, you know, two years back from now erm, I just got the idea in me head about how we used to play in the street, no cars and ohh you know that will go to that tune, you know

[laughs]

So erm, you know I’ve written that, I’ve brought a copy over if, if you know

Ok

If you wanna read it, ‘cause it is little bit reminiscent of the late forties, early fifties.

Yeah

Yeah we erm, had the sort of streets where we lived and erm, there wasn’t alot of traffic

Mmmhmm

And your car would come every now and again and we’d just shout out “car!”, you know

Yeah

And then we’d all stop ‘till the car had gone and

Yeah

And carry on till the next one came.

Hmmm, erm, do you remember about any park wardens or park rangers in the park?

Yeah, erm, er, our nearest place, what we called the little park, but it was actually the church yard, a xxxx st Mary’s church in Plaistow. And yeah we used to play there as it was a only a sort of minute from home and er, there was a park keeper there but I don’t remember him, you know I don’t s’ppose we gave him any trouble

Yeah

I can only remember him I think just sort of tidying leaves up and that sort of thing

Mmhmm

In his little hut.

Yeah

I think we used to talk to him, but er, erm, another one I remember, erm, I think it was called Lister gardens near Plaistow Station

Mmmhmm

Next to St Mary’s hospital

Yeah

There was a park there that backed on to the erm, well it wasn’t a proper park it was just little erm, play ground area and bit of garden and it backed on to the sewer bank. And I remember you know we were about f- thirteen or forteen I think playing on the swings and larkin’ about ha and the park, I was near the s-cemetery as well on the otherside of the cemetery was er, a on the other side the sewer bank was erm, East London Cemetery

Yeah

So we were larkin’ about

Mmhmm

On the swings and the park keeper said, there’s hospital there and there’s cemetery over there

[Laughs]

You know, be careful xxxx stop larkin’ about

[Laughs]

Ohh he’s cheerful int he [Laughs]

[Laughs]

But you know

yeah

you’re alright

Mmhmm

That’s the only two erm, memories I’ve got of park keepers

Oh

We used to go to West Ham Park.

Yeah

Which is a lot bigger but I don’t remember

Mhmmm

Park keepers over there

Oh

At that time

Do you remember any in Barking Park at all?

No

I, erm...

No I can only remember activities there you know.

[Laughs] Erm, do you remember like erm, did you use to go on the boat in Barking Park?

Barking Park?

Yeah [Laughs]

Yeah, erm, well I suppose that’s an early memory as well from that time. That was a progression you know erm, we used to go on the paddle boat

Oh

I don’t know if people have talked about it xxxx

Er, think so yeah

About the boat, yeah, I think in America, like on the Mississippi they would call it a stern wheeler

Yeah

Erm, but it was a small paddle boat, with the erm, you know the revolving pa-, wheel at the back. And er, yeah just used to sit on there and er, go round, chuggin’ around

Yeah

On end of the lake to the other, you know ro-, round a loop. I remember the islands there. I don’t if they’re still there, they probably are. I can’t see they woulda taken them out

Yeah, mhmm

But ‘remember the, so if go round you see the islands and the ducks and things on them

Yeah

And then I s’ppose the progression from that when I could do it on me own was to go in the little paddle

Mhmm

Little erm

Yeah

Paddle boats

Mmhmm

with the erm

Yeah [laughs]

You know, two handles and left one rowing right the other way and er,

Mhmm

Yeah that was down the end and that, down the end and that, down the end of the er...

Yeah mmhmm

....lake. And then I remember when I was about, again about thirteen, fourteen I was over there with a couple of mates and we had the rowing boat out

Yeah

I was doing alright with that and erm, we were over by the bank er, the Loxford Lane side

Mhmm

Buttsbury Road

Yeah

Over that side, erm, and as we were there, there were some kids on the bank, started throwing stones at us

[laughs]

And we were helpless you know

Yeah

We, couldn’t throw any back, we couldn’t do anything

Yeah

And we just had to try and row away you know

[Laughs]

We were getting in a bit of muddle, you know

Yeah, mmhmm

S’all, you know one rowing one way and one rowing the other way

Yeah [laughs]

And these stones comin’ at us

[Laughs]

And, it often xxxxx way, you know you go out for a bit quiet fun and there’d be someone out to

Yeah

Sort of er, spoil it and er, have a go at you, you know, but er.....yeah, yeah the boats were good.

Um, did you ever used to go on the Light Railway?

Yeah the little xxxx, model rail or miniature railway

[laughs]

Yeah, yeah I’d go on that, you know my mum would sort see me in to it at one end she’d start walkin’ along

Mhmm

And then er, after a little while you know the train would start off and catch up with her and then

Yeah

Meet her at the other end, down by the lake.

Mhmm, yeah. Um how long would it take on the train to from like one side of the park to the other part?

I dunno, erm, probably only about a minute [laughs]

Ok [laughs]

It wasn’t very far

Oh

I can’t remember how fast it was, but er, yeah I shouldn’t think it was any more than a minute f-from one end to the other one side to the other.

Oh

From Longbridge Road end to the erm, to the boating hut

Yeah

Erm, I remember they had these turn table... well it must have been a turn table at each end but I remember the one at the er, Longbridge Road end.

Mmhmmm

You know they put the engine on it to turn it round and..

Yeah

...go back the other way

Hmmm

But readin’ ‘bout Billy Bragg, yeh, dunno if you’ve heard of him, a singer.

Erm, I think I have yeah

He was like a popular singer in the seventies erm, well he still recording now I suppose, but er, his protest xxxx punk

Yeah

New wave, erm, and a political activist, but he lived in park road or park avenue

Yeah

Which came down to the park.

Mhmmm

So looking back now I ‘mem-, remember her sitting on a train, sort of looking through the railings as we went along. And seeing a re-, gap in the road there. And I think now “Oh, that’s probably where Billy Bragg lived you know [laughs]

[Laughs]

He must have gone over the park, well, yeah I think in his book he said he did.

Yeah. Um, do you remember if there was like any music events or like a circus’ there?

Yeah, erm, no sorry I don’t remember a music events. We had a, or they had a carnival, that’s a regular

Yeah

..every year, at the carnival. Th-, I dunno where it’d start of, but I remember it coming along Longbridge Road.

Mmmhmm

And then in to the park. I can only remember one of them, but the one I remember was probably about 1954,’55 summin’ like that. And erm, they had, I s’ppose they had the floats but I remember a car going along. Like a motorcade

Mmmhmm

And there was a, two film stars sitting in the back of it

Yeah

Or sitting up on the, it is an open top,

Mmhmm

they were sitting on the back of the seat.

Yeah

And it was erm, Anita Ekberg and Anthony Steel.

Yeah

And they were, you know stars at that time

Yeah

I think they married at one point. But I remember seeing them there

Mmhmm

I mean it’s just the same as now

Yeah

You get the film stars, or

mhmm

Sort of pop stars. But I remember them at that time er, you know quite thrilled to see them.

Yeah [laughs]

And er.... and then, I don’t know if it’s the same occasion, but I remember walking through the park with me mum and we were walking behind the qu-, carnival queen and the princesses

Mmhmm

For some reason they looked round [laughs]

[Laughs]

I don’t think xxxxx,

[Laughs]

but they’d turned around and gave me a smile and a [surprised breathe in ] oooh you know [laughs]

[Laughs]

Yeah, bit of a thrill you know

Yeah

And, no I don’t remember any music, but I do remember they had a fire work display

Mhmm

Possibly part of the carnival

Yeah

Celebrations, and that’s a time of the Teddy Boys

Mmhmm

You know which, some of them got a bad reputation

Yeah

Like, the kids do now. But you know most of them, which are sort of, it’s just a fashion thing but erm

Yeah

you know, same as it was me later.

Mmhmm

But there was, I assume there were Teddy boys, I think you know my memory is that they were, and they were larking about, as the erm fireworks went up, you know

Yeah

The displays, they were going “Ahhh, wuuuuu”, “Ahhhaaa”

[Laughs]

[Laughs] Yeah, yeah obviously

Yeah

Taking the mickey out of their girlfriends or whatever you know

Yeah

But er, I remember laughing at that you know. I’d think ahhh yer know their alright, they're not all trouble, you know

[Laughs] I, I was just wondering what, what are Teddy Boys? Because I-

What are Teddy boys?

Yeah

Erm, it was a style of dress more than anything.

Ok.

Erm, it comes from the term, “Edwardian”

Ok

You know like King Edward

Yeah

Time, is it the early nineteen hundreds

Yeah

or nineteen, I think nineteen ten, fifteen, something like that. I think it was the erm, upper class people who started dressing like it first of all.

Yeah

They had the er, tight trousers and drape jackets.

Mmhmmm

You know, long jackets

Yeah

Down almost their knees. And er, velvet collar and velvet on the pocket. Things like that and they’d wear a suede shoes with the crepe souls

Oh

What they call “brothel creepers” for some reason

[Laughs]

And then working class people, you know this is just what I’ve read.

Yeah

What I remember, working class boys took it up, and the girls. You know there were “Teddy Girls.” They’d have similar

Yeah

Wear and, a lot of them got in to fights, same as they do now. But I think with most people it was just erm, they liked the style

Yeah

And wanted to be fashionable, so they wore the clothes

Mmmhmm

But with some of them, you know they were sort of erm, razor fights

Yeah

And bike chains and things like that.

Mmhmm

They’d get in fights with other people. Sometimes it’s a racial thing. In Notting Hill in the late 50’s there were riots there

Mhmm

You know fighting

Yeah

And, but my memories of them, you know, what not, you know, when I was about eleven or twelve

yeah

was that they’re alright, you know.

Mmhmm

Yeah I remember I was right near mum at a bus stop, and she saw a coin in the gutter

Yeah

And she bent to pick it up and there were some Teddy Boys there and they’d say “Oh, that-, that’s mine, I dropped that” you know “sure get out of it” you know

[Laughs]

I, I saw it

yeah

and we laughed with them

Mmhmm

But erm, yeah so, I, again, the, the trouble that you read about in the papers

Yeah

Was the minority.

Mmhmm

You know so.

Yeah

Nothings untoward. [Laughs]

[Laughs] Um, did you used to go to the carnival a lot, in the park?

No I don’t remember that

Oh

I can just remember that one occasion

Ok

Sitting there

Yeah

I think it was a Anita Ek-, yeah I’m sure it was a Anita Ekberg and Anthony Steel

Yeah

But the other thing, I don’t know if other people have talked about it in the park was the erm, donkeys and the ponies.

Oh erm..yeah

Just showin’ you the photos

Yeah

Erm, yeah they used to erm....I don’t remember it. I can under-, it’s only ‘cause I got the photo’s

Yeah

Or perhaps I can remember it vaguely because they used to ru-, walk along by erm, parallel with Longbridge Road

Mmmhmm

That just, that bit of park

Yeah

In from the railings

Mmhmm

But looking again at the photos, I realise there was a string of

Yeah

Ponies and donkeys

Mmhmm

Dunno how many, but there was a string of them.

Yeah

Erm, so I’m sure that was something I made for first [laughs]

[Laughs]

You know, er, I loved horses, and er, me grandfather used to work with them. He used to

Yeah

Drive the horse drawn ambulances and horse drawn undertaker

Yeah

Coaches and hearses

Mmmhmm

So erm, he was always talkin’ to me about them and, and helpin’ him, used to come round with his horse, and I used to feed that, and er, so imagine when I got to the park that’d be the first

Yeah

Either that or the xxxx [laughs]

[Laughs]

Erm....yeahs, lookin’ at the photo, I think crickey, you know. It was soon after the war, you know

Yeah

Erm, and lookin’ at me wearin’ the snake belt

[laughs] yeah.

You know that’s, er, you, there still about are they? Popul-,

Erm...

..elastic belt

Yeah

With the erm snake

Mmhmm

You know, as a sort of buckle thing

Yeah, um

All different colours [laughs]

[Laughs] Um, do you remember any of the wild life, in the park?

No, no I was reading about that on your website

Ok

You know s’bout alot of wildlife there

Yeah

But, the only things I can remember are the ducks.

Yeah

Perhaps there were geese there

Mhmm

On the islands but, oh and the little fishes [laughs]

[Laughs]

And we used to go fishing with our nets and er, you know catching the tiddlers, as we called them, and er, put them in a jar, take ‘em home

[Laughs]

Probably find them dead the next morning but...

[Laughs] Did you used to go fishing a lot in the lake?

Yeah, probably did it each time I went there.

Mmhmm

I seem to remember buyin’ a net in Longbridge Road, you know, just as we got there,

yeah

you know buyin’ a net and erm, and .....now’ so long ago now. You know [Laughs] sixty years ago, erm, memories not all that clear.

Yeah

No, nothing, talkin’ about Longbridge Road and the shops there. I can remember seeing some trolley buses, which I was familiar with ‘cause

Yeah

You know, used to use them all the time, but I remember me mum telling me that er, some of them were ‘specially constructed to go out to South Africa

Mhhmm

And I think they were, dunno if they were narrower or wider

Yeah

But they had the darkened windows, you know to stop the glare of the sun, and erm......yeah that’s just by the way [laughs]

Ok

That’s just erm, part of Barking, of the park.

Yeah

Oh I remember the erm....thinking of that, I think there used to be a, sort of ice cream kiosk at the gate

Mhmmm

I know they had the pavilion

Yeah

I think they called it, know where you could get your drinks

Yeah

And ice lollies and everything.

Mhmmm

But I seem to remember there was erm one just at the gate in Longbridge Road, but that might be me, might be memory

[laughs]

xxxx tricks but, but with the other one, I remember, I think that was an art deco

yeah

style

Mhmm

Presumably that’s still there

Yeah

But I can particularly remember the lollies there and er, you know the creamy banana ones

Yeah

I used to have, or the erm, the ice lollies, the frozen erm...

Mhmm

The lime

[laughs]

I used to like [laughs] the lime flavour. I just liked the look of it and

Yeah

Yeah just, well it was refreshing, you know

Yeah, um did you ever used to listen to bands playing at the bandstand?

No

[laughs]

I don’t remember them. No if there was one, we probably would of sat down, ‘cause me mum used to like to, to do that [laughs]

Oh

I wasn’t one for sitting down much, you know

[laughs]

But I remember different places we went to. She’d wanna sit down, I was like “come on let’s go!”

[Laughs]

No, don’t....can’t really remember where the bandstand, I mean I’ve been over there, in more recent years

Yeah

But the last time is probably about, fifteen years ago, you know

Ok

.....I know there’s the war memorial there.

Mhmmm

That was fascinating and

Yeah

Impressive, and.....And I remember the lavatories as well. Just behind the erm, I was just, I think it must‘ve been between the Lido and the erm, ice cream place, the pavilion or, cafe area. I seem to remember they were sort of dirty and smelly and closed in and I hope they’ve altered it since then and er, you know made it a bit safer and

Mhmm

More, you know, more visible to the er, park keepers or whoever’s there [laughs]

[Laughs]

You know I wouldn’t wanna go in there now you know. Didn’t think about it much at the time

Yeah

But, but er, no I think you’d feel a bit vulnerable in there.

Mhmm, um did you used to take your children to Barking Park?

No, I don’t think I ever did.

Oh [laughs]

We lived in Newbury Park, and erm, so we used to go to Seven Kings park.

Mhmm

Or Valentines. But I don’t think we ever went to erm, Barking Park.

Ok

I might have done

[laughs]

But again that was forty years ago now [laughs]

[Laughs]

Thirty-five years ago.

Um, do you remember like any sports bein’ played in the park at all.

......No, not from when I was a kid. At one point, I remember doin’ puttin’, you know little, little golf thing, puttin’ green. That might’ve been in the nineties when I went there with someone with her children

Mhmm

Or it might have been in the sixties, go over there with the girlfriend or summin’

Yeah

Just for, a ride out and er, but I seem to remember bein’ on a puttin’ green

Yeah

I think they used to play cricket over there. But I would never have sat in watched it.

[Laughs]

I think, you know, got a vague recollection of seeing ‘em playing in the distance and...

Yeah, um, trying to think [laughs]

Alright

Like what else to say, erm, have you got any other memories of Barking Park?

Any other memories?

Yeah, at all

No, don’t think so, I made some notes, but I think you’ve covered them all.

Oh right

And you had the boats and the fishin’ and the railway and...Lido and the carnival.....No, summin’ might come back later but....

Ok [laughs]

[laughs] be too late, but er [laughs]

[laughs]

No I think geographically, you go from go inside the gate, you got the railway on the left and donkeys and the ponies on the right and

Yeah

And go further over to the right, you’ve got the Lido, the paddling pool and ....and sort of going along the otherside from one end to the other, you got the er boatin’ lake

Mhmm

And, no, that’s about it.

Ok

What other memories have people come up with?

Erm

Any that I haven’t thought of? Or?

Few people have been talkin’ about erm, at-, a, I think it was either swan or duck that used to like bite people.

Oh really

Because I xxxx think, erm, think he was called Henry the swan.

[Laughs]

I think

No

So

Didn’t know that

[laughs] And erm, just been talkin’ about like the xxxxxxx, just like the Lido and the boats really. Most of the time.

Yeah

So.....and quite a lot of people have been talking about the carnivals and the fireworks

Yeah, and where have other people come from? Are they still local or have they not moved?

I think most of them are actually local, they live like right near the park, so

Mmmmmm....yeah, yeah I would like to’ve got along to one or two of the erm, like you know, to one of the erm, reminiscence sessions

Yeah

You know, sort of talk to people about ‘em, but they're just a bit too far or not the right time

Yeah

But erm....yeah and you wonder things like that, I wonder if there’s any one that I knew, you know [laughs]

Yeah

Yeah that wasn’t far from me, ‘cause I lived in Plaistow

Yeah

So it was only a, xxxx even got the train, I think we just used walk up to the green gate in Plaistow and get the bus along

Yeah

But the train would have gone just three stops on…yeah three stops and then a short walk

Mmh yeah

Yeah it was a good park to go to you know erm....XXXX West Ham Park, but that didn’t have a lido, although as I said I didn’t used to use it anyway

Mmh

And it didn’t have the boating lake so there was more in Barking Park

Yeah

To do you know

Did you…

And West Ham didn’t have the XXXX railway [Laughs]

[Laughs]

Or the donkeys, I don’t remember the donkeys or ponies there so…yeah looking back as you’ve just said that you know erm…there was a lot of activity in Barking Park

Yeah did you used to go to Barking Park a lot in the summer holiday?

I was just thinking that I can’t remember it raining when I was there, I mean really I can only remember a few particular occasions

Mmh

You know a lot of the two things were the paddling pool

Yeah

And the carnival and that, thing that stick in your mind…but I…I think I can only remember sunny days over there but then on the other hand if it had been a rainy day or if it looked like rain coming…my mum won’t have taken me anyway so

[Laughs]

You know it was sort of selective you know go

Yeah

Nice day that’s get out, let’s go over Barking Park you know

Erm when you was like over Barking Park did you just used to the lido a lot or did you used to do other things in the Park?

Sorry when I used to?

Erm when you used to go over to Barking Park did you just used go into the lido or did you do other things as well?

No, I mean we probably only went in the afternoon…we might have made a day of it with sandwiches but…we might have just been like on a Sunday afternoon, just go over there for a couple of hours so by the time we had a ride on the donkeys and the ride on the train and then a walk round and…sit in the lido for a little while and a little play in the paddling pool and then a little go on the boats or something [Laughs]

Ok

You know if we did all of them in one go

Yeah

Then that would have taken up the afternoon erm…but I’ve only got that one memory of the lido and that’s probably my first time in there

Yeah

Just being so amazed by it, how erm…I just sort of so many people and…the water and the colours

Yeah

And the freshness of it all you know the excitement

Yeah [Laughs]

Did stick in my mind

Yeah erm can’t think of anything else to…

Did you go there?

Erm I haven’t really been over there, like before…I’ve been over there like a couple of times but cos where my nan lives, like she’s got a park right opposite like her house so I normally went to that one

Ah, what’s that central park?

Erm it’s the one, which is right near Becontree station, I’m not sure what the name is of that park

Ah I know Becontree station because I used to help people with the allotments next to it, but I don’t remember, I probably didn’t get that far into the park

Yeah so…

Yeah

Erm is there anything else you like to say cos I think of anymore questions

No, I did think today about someone who lives in Barking now and I don’t if she grew up there but I thought I will get in touch with her and erm tell her about the project

Ok

I mean she’s working full time but she might be able to…take part in it and erm…she still lives in Barking now

Ok

As far as I know

Ok yeah

Erm…yeah well if my cousin was still alive…but she lived up in Yorkshire anyway so she wouldn’t be able to help

Ok [Laughs]

But she might remember more

Yeah

Then just falling in the paddling pool

[Laughs]

And getting her knickers wet, but [Laughs] I’m sure she remembers that, or would have remembered it

Yeah

And…erm I don’t see my old mates now you know they’ve all moved away and erm

Yeah

So erm I mean touch wood a couple of them, but…no it’s it

Ok

My memory’s exhausted [Laughs]

[Laughs] ok well I’ll just stop the tape then

[TAPE END]

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: John Golding

Project: Barking Park

Date: 29^th November 2011

Language: English

Venue: ECH Office, Ilford

Name of interviewer: Paris Sydes

Length of interview: 30:40

Transcribed by: Li-Anne Tan

Archive Ref: 2011_esch_BaPa_14

2011_esch_BaPa_15

2011_esch_BaPa_15

Alright could you just ask why…I mean could you just start by telling me your full name please?

Irene Lillian Sydes

And…like could you tell me your date of birth please?

1941, the 8^th of June

Ok erm can you tell me where you was born?

Erm Barking hospital, Upney Lane

Ok erm what did your parents used to do?

Erm…Dad was a painter and decorator and mum was a machinist

Erm did they do that like erm all the time or did they change jobs?

No it was mostly all the time

Ok did you have any brothers or sisters?

Yeah one sister

Ok erm where did you go to school?

In the infants and juniors was erm Dawson school Ellerton Road, and then I went onto Biffron in Bromhall road

Ok erm where did you grow up?

On Becontree estate [Laughs]

Erm did…did you enjoy school?

Yeah it was quite good really yeah it was nice

John: what about prefabs

Yeah what about prefabs? No well you know, I was born here wasn’t I, so I lived, I’ve lived here all my life haven’t I? And erm…what else…what did you say after…

Erm I was just going to say did you…enjoy school

Yeah I enjoyed school yeah

What subjects did you like?

Erm I used to like science and that history, geography weren’t bad at any of them really

Ok I was going to like ask…was any of your family evacuated during the war?

Well we did for a month but we come back [Laughs]

[Laughs] where did you get evacuated?

Bury St. Edmunds

Alright where’s that?

Where’s Bury St. Edmunds John?

John: Suffolk

Suffolk way

[Clock chimes]

Ok I’ll wait for that to go [Laughs]

[Laughs]

We can wait for to go…ok now it’s done [Laughs]

John: three, four

That’s your lot

Ok erm so what erm when did you leave school?

When I was fifteen

Did you have to do like any exams before you left?

No we didn’t do them then, much then did we? We just went straight to work [Laughs]

[Laughs] so erm what did you do after you left school?

Erm started at the bookbinding at James Burns at Farringdon Road

John: four year apprenticeship weren’t?

Mmh it was three year I did

John: oh three year

Three years apprenticeship

So did you have to do there?

We used to collate the books, sew them and bind them

Ok

Well the men did the binding, the women did the collating and sewing and men did the binding

Ok what did you do after that?

Well I got married didn’t I, in…erm 1961

John: ‘61

Then I had Tony in 1962, and your mum Angela in 1965 [Laughs]

So erm where did…where did you meet granddad?

At work

Oh ok

At work yeah [Laughs] he lived at Chingford [Laughs]

[Laughs]

John: when I came out the army

Yeah

So, so how long did you date for before you…

Four years weren’t it? Yeah about four years

Erm…erm trying to think now [Laughs] erm so where did you move to after you got married?

Erm I lived in Cannington Road, then I moved to…Goresbrook Road, from Goresbrook Road we moved to Porter’s Avenue and then after…we lived with mum for a little while and we got a house round in erm Cornworthy Road

Ok

And then from Cornworthy Road, we moved to Gales Street

Ok

So how long have you lived here for?

What in here? Twenty eight years ain’t it? Twenty eight years…

Ok

John: 1983 we came here

1983 we came here so its twenty nine years ain’t…no twenty eight years cos we’ve got another two years and then it’ll be erm 2013 twenty eight years yeah

Ok so when, when was the first time that you went to the Park…Barking Park?

Well I used to go when I was little…you know sort of like…eight, nine, ten with my mum and then we used to take Tony and Angela over then when they got bigger, that’s when we went on the miniature railway…used to go from the front gate of the park to the back didn’t it?

John: yeah

Just a straight one it was, it’ll go from the front right to the back of the erm Park

Oh ok

And then you’d get off of there and have a walk round the boating lake…you could have a go on the boats, the paddle boats they had there weren’t it?

John: yeah

Used to have all the swan and that there, then it used…all the ducks and then from there, there used to be the swings, they had a nice little swing park where you could go in, you know…sort of like a bit further, used to go in there and go on them swings

John: yeah a cafeteria didn’t you’re?

A little cafeteria you could you know a tea or whatever you wanted, and then right over the back towards erm…what’s that road what goes down…is it Water Lane, no it’s not Water Lane is it? You know the one that goes near the bus garage

John: Fairlop

Eh?

John: the Fairlop

Well Loxford Road, Loxford near there, there used to be the erm…at the other end of the park there used to be the outdoor swimming bathes, it used to be nice that…

John: it’s still there it is

Well…yeah it’s still…used to…I don’t know if they’ve knocked it down but there used to be

John: they’re renovating it

They’re renovating oh well, used to go in there, you could go in there it’s nice, when it was nice and warm in the summer

I was just going to ask quickly erm when you was little what kind of games did you used to play and that?

What sort of games oh…used [Laughs] knocking down ginger weren’t it?

What’s that? [Laughs]

Well you tie the cotton on the door knocker and go and hide and pull it

Oh [Laughs]

And then you used to…what was that erm…what was that high jimmy knacker weren’t it?

John: yeah

And you used to do the leap frog weren’t it?

John: yeah over the back

Yeah erm I think that was high jimmy knacker weren’t it? And then we used to play with tops, you know…and marbles

John: and sticks

And erm gobs…gobs, what do they call them?

John: XXXX

No, gobstops you know when used to chuck do you remember…no you don’t well I think we used to play it with you when you was little, you get five stones…that’s what it was called five stones and you used to have five stones…well like little square blocks, you used to buy and you used…push it up and catch it on the back of your hand

Ok

And then you catch it up, pick how many you could up with the stones and that weren’t it?

John: yeah

And we used to call it five stones and that...yeah and what else did we used to do?

John: XXXX

Eh?

John: XXXX

Oh yeah no not them…games that you played erm…used to just…usual girlish things you know dressing up and things like that…get you mum’s clothes out [Laughs] and dress up in them…cos I lived in a banjo you see so there used to be a few…and we used to play in the banjo

Alright

Down Cannington Road, it’s sort of at the bottom and there to be a few children there and we used to play dressing up and that you know…hopscotch, hopscotch weren’t it?

John: mmh

We used to play that a lot, got into trouble for drawing on the floor [Laughs]

[Laughs]

And erm well all just kiddie things really, you know girls things with the prams and that and shops, play shops [Laughs] and all like that, it…so

What was I going to say…what is your first memory of Barking Park, what you can remember?

Well I suppose really…it always was that…I mean it did stop but I suppose it was the little railway really and the house at the side with all the flower beds outside the erm…I don’t know if it was the erm caretaker’s there

Ah I think it was like the lodge house because like erm…

Yeah it was like…well the house is still there ain’t it?

John: yeah it’s still there

The house is still there

Well one of the people that like has been interviewed before like her dad used to be the gardener

Yeah it used to be beautiful erm

John: flowers round the bandstand

She used to live there for…

Did she?

I think so; she’s already been interviewed for the erm…

Oh well no well I remember that cos it was nice and erm colourful the flowers and the park was nice, used to have like…used to seem to be more trees there then it is now, I don’t know if it…you know and the lake used to be nice

John: football pitches over there ain’t they?

Yeah, yeah used to be…you know the tennis courts…it has got the tennis courts there ain’t it?

I think…yeah

And I think it was just mainly the open space you know what I mean the erm little railway that was erm…novelty, everybody used to like going on that

Yeah

Didn’t they [Laughs] I think it was about thrupenny a ride weren’t it?

What…was the erm the train like that when you was like younger?

Yeah when I was…about…you know the things you remember as you know the train and that...you know

Erm I was just going to ask erm was the lido there when you was younger?

It’s always been there

Alright did you used to go in it a lot when…?

Well it was only summertime you could go cos it was erm…you know

John: from May to September

It was…May…it sort of open air in the winter you used to have go to the one in Barking

Ok

Behind the law courts there used to be a swimming pool there didn’t it?

John: yeah, XXXX

Well that was all the year round that one

John: yeah…that was a bathhouse weren’t really

Yeah…no it was a swimming pool

John: yeah you used to have a swimming pool, didn’t they used to…

No you’re talking about, you’re thinking about down Popular behind the baths

John: no used to…

No they didn’t have baths

John: no, no as I say I’ve been in there swimming

Yeah they used to have like it was an old Victorian XXXX with the where…you could go upstairs and that, but the open aired one that was open during the summer

Ok

It was too cold to go in the winter [Laughs]

[Laughs] I was just going to ask you like erm do you have memories like of any park keepers or like lido lifeguards or like stuff like?

No not really

Ok

They only used to pass through parks weren’t it?

John: yeah

You never sort of stopped and spoke

Oh ok

They used to sort of patrol round

Yeah

You’d see them going round and that

Was they kind of like you know strict keeping off the grass and stuff like?

Mmh keep off the grass, used to have notices on there keep off the grass [Laughs]

[Laughs] I was going to say erm…do you have any like erm…memories about going on the…boats or anything?

Yeah on the paddle boats yeah they were good yeah weren’t they?

John: yeah

Used to in there you used to sit in…and run [Laughs]

[Laughs]

You know what I mean; they were nice they call you in when your time was up ‘come in’ [Laughs]

[Laughs]

Ain’t it?

John: mmh

Well like over when we’ve been over to erm…we’ve been over to the one at Ilford, what’s the name of that park?

Valentine’s Park

John: XXXX

What?

John: Valentine

Yeah well they have the little boats there you know what I mean where they…it was like that we’ve been on them yeah

Ok how long did you get to go onto the boats?

Oh it wasn’t very long was it John?

John: no

About quarter of an hour weren’t it?

John: yeah, half an hour

About half an hour, fifteen, half hour something like that, wasn’t very long you didn’t…about half hour really ain’t it?...yes, yes Irene

John: yes Irene

[Laughs] I was going to say erm…did you used to go on the rowing boats as well?

No I can’t row [Laughs] granddad rows

Oh well obviously you got him like just row it like…

Yeah [Laughs] let him row, I can’t row

John: used to be in the sea cadets didn’t I?

Mmh

What I was going to say erm did you to play tennis in the tennis courts?

No

Ok

Used to go over Parsloes Park and play

Alright

It was nearer weren’t Parsloes Park for that

Yeah erm I was just going to ask erm…so erm did you use to take mum and Tony to the park a lot?

Yeah well in the summer didn’t we?

John: yeah

We used to take them over and that

What did you used to do like when erm when you went over the park?

Used to go on the train and then they’d go on the swings, have a look round the erm lake and if they were thirsty get a drink and that, and just walk round and, you know let them have a run round

Yeah

Run wild [Laughs]

Did you used to go to the park a lot when you was younger?

We used to but not, not a lot…cos I had to get on the bus didn’t I to go there

Yeah did you just like used to go in the summer?

Yeah

Ok

Not the winter much, too cold

So erm what did you do apart from going in the lido and like that?

Well used to go on the swings, you’d take some sandwiches didn’t you?

John: yeah

And that and have some sandwiches over and some lemonade or whatever you had water, whatever you took with you

Did you ever used to like go fishing in the lake?

No

John: no

I don’t think you was allowed to fish in there

Because a few people have said like they used to like fish for tiddlers like…

I didn’t think you was allowed to fish over there did you?

John: no I don’t think you can

Erm a lot of people said like they used to get like erm…

Nets, fishing nets

Nets, fishing nets from like the shop like outside the like the park

Yeah, yeah but I never did that…I used to do that over matchstick island, but not in Barking Park [Laughs] I didn’t think you was allowed to do it over there

Where’s matchstick island?

Down the roundhouse

Ok yeah

Mayesbrook Park

Oh

Yeah

Did you used to play games in the park when you was younger?

Well mostly ball games weren’t it? Throwing the balls and cricket or that you tennis…you know on the lawns, not in the courts or that

Yeah

Just on the grass you know you just sort of played with the balls and that

Erm I was just going to ask erm do you remember because a couple of people have said like that there used to be a giant chess set in…Barking Park

John: yeah there was a big chess set

Yeah

And like only adults could play [Laughs] so I was just going to ask if like you…you remembered that

Well yeah it would be only adults, they wouldn’t let the kids run riot on that would they [Laughs]

[Laughs]

John: no big ones, used to pick them up and put them…

Yeah move them yeah, yeah I never touched…

John: I couldn’t play chess

Eh?

John: couldn’t play…

Couldn’t play chess so I wouldn’t touch them [Laughs]

Do you remember when that was like what kind of year that?

That was…when the…beginning weren’t it?

John: what’s that?

When they were there, it was in the sixties, early seventies weren’t it?

John: yeah

About sixties or seventies I think

Ok

End of sixties, you know into the seventies yeah

So you was like saying erm there used to be restaurants…

Yeah there was a little cafeteria there weren’t it?

John: yeah

It was quite nice; you could go and get a cup of tea and that

John: I think you could get ice-cream and all there

Yeah ice-creams and that

Alright

Yeah it used to be…erm half way in the middle XXXX of the park, it was you know I don’t think that there now is it?

John: XXXX

No that’s gone yeah between the lakes and the boats…

I think, I think like they are going to doing a new…

A new one

New café area

Yeah

Like in there once it’s done up

Yeah

John: they’re building over now aren’t they?

Yeah

I think there’s a bowls place over there, it used to be…not when we were young

No

John: but they built it…

They built a bowls….

John: in the eighties or something

Bowls you know…

John: I think so I don’t know…

Have we still got that one over Parsloes Park, the bowling green…we used to have one over there…

John: no they used to have…I think they used to have some…blokes on the papers used to go up there one of the blokes used to play bowls I think I don’t know

Yeah

John: it was an indoor one I think, I don’t know

I don’t know about that [Coughs] yeah

Erm I was going…to erm ask anything about the wildlife in the park?

Yeah used to have a lots of swans and ducks and things like that and a lot of…think used to get squirrels over there then, didn’t you and that

John: mmh

You know general sort of things and birds and that were loved weren’t they?

Yeah what kind of birds were there?

Well…

John: bluetits

No…you know sort of…blackbirds and…just your average birds, you know blackbirds and things like that well the ones that I could recognise anyway [Laughs]

[Laughs]

Do what?

John: the common birds like sparrows and starlings

Yeah all things like what we would recognise you know

John: magpies

Magpies yeah

Erm I was going to say erm a few people have been saying about erm…there was a swan…in the park called Henry the swan and people used to…and he used to try and like attack people

Oh

I wondered whether, wondered whether you remember

No [Laughs] I never see him

Ok so he didn’t try and attack you then?

No, no he didn’t attack me, I was safe

[Laughs] do you remember like erm was there like loads erm…flowers and trees…

Yeah there seemed to be more trees then there is now and that didn’t it? It used to seem as if there was a long…walkways and that, there don’t seem to be many you know sort of like it was it was and there used to have nice flowers yeah I would admit that, there’s nice flowers, I like the flowers

What kind of flowers were there?

Well it all depends what season it was if you know it was the spring, you’d get all the spring bulbs and the erm…primulas and that weren’t it and the pansies and things like that and then when it came to the summer, all the wall flowers, you used to get all the wall flowers and that cos they…all the springs one you used to get, then when it come to the summer you’d get the roses and all that coming out

Ok

It was nice

Erm I was just going to say erm…if you remembered any like kind of carnivals or circus or fairs in the park?

Yeah well we used to have a carnival every year didn’t they? And that

John: XXXX circus

We did have a circus once didn’t we?

John: yeah

Yeah did have one once, I remember when the kids were little weren’t it?

John: yeah

I can’t remember…

John: Zippos

What?

John: Zippos

Zippos, Zippos I think it was yeah

John: it was called Z-I-P-P-O-S

P-O Zippo there was a you know a carnival…

John: circus

Erm circus there

Ok

And that but erm there used to be the carnival every year and then that…as well you say there was September the beginning of October sometimes weren’t it?

John: erm September

Mostly September

John: end of July, September

No it weren’t end of July

July: September

September I think

John: yeah had all the floats, used to go round

They used to do the floats over Mayesbrook Park and then they used to make it’s way up to erm…Barking Park

John: Barking Park

Oh ok

But…one minute…I think it used to be…having said that I’m saying the beginning of October I think it was near enough when the kids went back to school

Ok

Weren’t it? About the first, second week in September, you know first…beginning of second week…when the kids used to back to school about the seventh of September it’ll be about the second week I suppose

Ok

Yeah it used to be…

Alright erm, erm did you used to go there a lot to the…

Yeah used to go watch the thing…well used walk into Mayesbrook Park watch them do the floats then we’d cut through into Upney Lane and walk round and get the bus round and go into Barking and watch the erm carnival there

Ok

Yeah

What kind of like floats did they used to have?

Well they used to have them like the…mostly like…

John: Fords

Fords you know the industries that used to be round here then weren’t it?

John: yeah

And you’d have it like for the youth clubs and erm…the erm…sort of different activity groups…dance groups and things like that…used to like dance groups and…

John: beauty queens

Youth clubs and erm then you’d have the erm Ford’s floats and it’s be another sort of erm float for another erm sort of industry and that and you used have erm…the kids used to make the floats up, different…you know Caribbean thing or something, all different floats they used to do, you know…and that, there used to be quite a long carnival didn’t it?

John: they used to have all the…

Dagenham Girl Pipers

John: yeah

Then we used to have a different cadet bands, weren’t it from the air force and the army

John: yeah

And the navy, XXXX used to go didn’t they?

John: yeah sea cadets

And that, used to have all of them march behind, you know you’d have the erm floats then a band then the floats then a band you know what I mean?

Yeah

It was all the youngsters mostly, the cadets, the sea cadets and…

Yeah

Things like that, they used to…

John: get the beauty queens from different XXXX come

Oh yeah all the different beauty queens from Southend, Canvey Island weren’t it?

John: yeah

And all around like that, they all used to come in to the erm precession and then you’d have your own beauty queen and that in there

Yeah

All going along

John: and marching bands weren’t it?

Eh?

John: the marching bands

I just told you that didn’t I?

[Laughs]

John: yeah

Keep up john, keep up [Laughs]

Erm I was just going…

John: yeah and all the ones with the XXXX what are they called?

What? That’s Dagenham girl pipers

John: no do the bleeding whirling with the stick

Well she’s the one that whirls them in the Dagenham girl…oh they used to have them, some little kids used…to do it sometimes where they twirl the batons you know…what do call them batons?

Oh yeah erm…yeah trying to think I don’t know what they’re called

Yeah they’re something they called them [Laughs] but I can’t remember it

John: XXXX or something

Cos like, I remember like in

Marionettes?

I know in another interview like…in another interview someone was saying about it, and nobody can remember what they’re called

No…oh I…they were the Dagenham girl pipers weren’t it…and oh god…it was it Marion…not the marionettes was it? Was it the marionettes?

John: might be marionettes yeah

It don’t know if it was the marionettes, something like that and they used to do the twirl the sticks, you know

Yeah

In their fingers and throw them up and catch them and that yeah

How long did the carnival used to last for?

Oh it was quite, quite a good one weren’t it? It’d take about an hour and a half wouldn’t it?

John: hour and a half, yeah

Hour, hour and a half to go by

John: to go by

Yeah used to have all the people selling the flags and the erm…them things you blow you know and that

Yeah

[Blows] what do you call them tings that curl out?

Erm…

I don’t know what they call them?

How long did like the whole like thing used to last for?

Well go by used to by be about an hour and half

I meant the whole like the whole carnival as whole like how long did that used to last, like be in the park for?

Oh I don’t know I…used to be by the time they sort of went from Parsloes Park and by the time and by the time they got into the other park what about an hour and a half weren’t it?

John: yeah

Then I suppose it’d be another half hour when they crown the…queen and that and then they all used to go to the town hall for a…their dinner or whatever…lunch whatever it was

How long was it there for, a week or…

Oh two weeks

Ok

The fair weren’t it? Two weeks

John: yeah

Ok alright, so what kind of like stuff did it used to have in there?

What in there? Well they used to have the dodgems didn’t they? Erm the octopus, you don’t know what that is do you?

I think I’ve seen similar stuff yeah

They go up and down

I’ve seen similar one like

Yeah they were like them but they were little tiny…only held two and it used to swing round on the end of these arms that went up and down, didn’t they? Erm what else did they have John? Used to have you know all them little side bits where…roll your penny down the chute…

John: helter-skelter

Helter-skelter and you used to have like a wooden thing [Laughs] and you put your penny in and you used to roll it and you tried to get it…used to be all little compartments of how much it was, used to get you money [Laughs] and try and get your money in one of them, so you’d win your pennies back

Yeah

And that and erm the duck where you fished them out…used to have all the erm hot dogs stands and the ice cream, candy floss and that and erm…I’m trying to think what else was there…used to have the caterpillar the one that goes up and down you know, the different names to what you have…the same…

John: used to have thing, used to go round…give you your ticket…

The aeroplanes

John: and then they used have erm…used to have lights and different names on the boards and lights used to go up and down

Oh yeah used to call it lie horse racing or something like that weren’t it and you’d get a ticket say of a horse and it used to go up and down and if it stopped on your thing you won and that

John: down…lights and it sort of go over like a...something like a disco light and then all of a sudden it would stop on one

On one

John: if you got your name on your ticket, you’d win a prize, you know what I mean

Them swing chairs like you used to go on, they used to have them, the little roundabouts for the little ones

Yeah

John: boat swings

Yeah what do they call them? Boats swings, I thought they weren’t aeroplanes, oh I don’t know

John: no they were boat swings where…

And then they used to have one called…big Lizzie

John: that’s it

Remember it was like a big…well it’s about oh…about the size of this room and little big longer, not quite so wide and they used to have big Bertha, that’s what they called it, what…

John: big Bertha

And they used to have these seats and you all sat in it and it’d go up and turn upside down, then come back and go up the other way like that

Yeah

Used to have two of them side by side didn’t they? And they used to have that thing where you hit the thing and it hits the bell…erm…didn’t used to that…no didn’t have that there no it was just general fairground but they’re mostly you know what I can remember

I was going to ask, you was like saying about the carnival queens

Mmh

And you was like saying about celebrities used to crown them

Oh yeah…used to have well they was like…we have Anthony Steel, Pete Murray wasn’t it?

John: mmh

Barbara Windsor

John: Nicolas Parsons

Nicolas Parsons anyone else you can remember?

John: well I know this chap, but as I say he died

Yeah, yeah

John: he got murdered actually

It was quite…you know it used to really have erm the erm top class ones weren’t it that come down and that

John: yeah

I have got a picture of Anthony Steel coming out the bandstand somewhere, if I find I’ll erm…

Ok

You can what’s name it…ain’t it? Got a picture

John: the bandstand in Barking Park

We can always just like scan it and like…

Yeah that that was when I was little that was…Jean got that picture, that’s when I was little that was, he was there weren’t it?

Alright, yeah

Or little, not little little

John: they used to pick out the beauty queens

Yeah

John: yeah

Yeah you know they, you know they was there and you used to have…

John: crown them ain’t it?

He used to crown them, but you used to have two erm…runners up, I suppose they were they used to be maids of honour

Oh

For the beauty queen weren’t it?

John: yeah

On the float, she used to sit at the top and they used to sit below, it was like on a erm…just like an open back thing and they used to do it up with the thrones on it and that

So after they like were crowned again, they’d go on the float again?

Well once they go to the park it’d all disperse the floats and that but once she’d been crowned…I don’t think…whether they got in a car, but they used to go to the town hall and have their lunch

Yeah ok

Well like a little banquet I suppose, don’t know nobody got into see it [Laughs]

[Laughs]

John: have the fair opposite

Eh?

John: the fair opposite weren’t it?

Pardon?

John: used to have a fair opposite after

Well the fair was…well the bandstand was near where the fair was weren’t it?

John: was yeah

You know what I mean and that, and they used to go back…which is now the law court which used to be the town hall was were they used to go and have their banquet or whatever you call it after the carnival weren’t

John: yeah the back of there used to be swimming…

That was…at the back of there was the erm…

John: covered up swimming pool

Covered up…you know the indoor swimming pool, used to be at the back of the town hall

John: Victorian, Victorian

Ok

But it’s gone now that ain’t it?

Yeah

Everything’s gone

[Laughs]

There’s not much left of Barking how it was

John: well you got…swimming pool but that outside there now ain’t it?

No that’s gone over, that’s gone over…it’s built the new one was over the other place, that’s nothing to do with that one…there was one behind the town hall

John: yeah I know that

But there’s none behind the town hall now

John: oh no, no

It’s over by the pub over the other side

John: yeah, yeah

What’s it…that oh some pub, some pub over there that used to be over here

John: the barge ain’t it?

The barge ground or something, something over there but there’s…they built the swimming pool there

Yeah

Indoor swimming pool, so that went

Did you ever used to go in the small paddling pool in the…in the park?

Yeah there was a little paddling pool, but I didn’t used to go in that

Oh did you used to take mum and Tony?

They never went in there either [laughs]

So just the lido then?

Just [Laughs] yeah just in the lido yeah, used to just go and have a look

I was going to say…

John: Jackie got her foot caught in there

Yeah Jackie…oh she would

[Laughs]

John: little hole and fall over…

It’s a great big blinking…erm like erm like you walk from the dressing rooms to the swimming pool part

Yeah

Great big like veranda weren’t it? And she finds a little hole like that and puts her foot down it and scratches it all Jack

[Laughs]

It can only be her can’t it [Laughs]

Erm I was going to say erm in, in the carnival did they, did they used to fireworks?

At the…not at the what’s name, they did when it ended

John: in the evening, the evening

Ok

You know when it ended and that weren’t it?

Did they like have like any other stuff going on at the end of the carnival or did they just have fireworks? Did they have like a…

Well they used to have the carnival and then after that, the fair opened up so people would go into the fair and then the last night that’s when they had the fireworks

Ok

Weren’t it?

John: yeah

They used…as soon as the carnival was finished the queen and that would all go wherever they went and they used to have the Lord Mayor and all that in the cars and I suppose they used to go back to the town hall and have their what’s name, then the fair would be going and ordinary people would go there and then after…the end of the two weeks that’s when the fireworks went off

Ok

Not on the day

Oh did…how long would the fireworks last for?

An hour, not all that long was it?

John: I don’t know I can’t remember going over there

Well I only remember went over once to go…it wasn’t all that long

Oh

It weren’t sort of like a big display

Yeah

Just a few of them and that about a hour and that was it

Ok did erm, did they used to play music in the bandstand at all?

Well, when they were marching?

No just like general like did they used to play any music or anything like in the bandstand or…?

Yeah they did, didn’t they? They used to have…used to play it on a Sunday and that

Alright what like during the afternoon or something?

Yeah

John: Brian Poole and the Tremoloes there

What?

John: on the bandstand, do you remember that time?

Yeah

John: Brian Poole and the Tremoloes played up there

That was on the bandstand, they used to…it was mostly

John: they came from around the corner here, do you know that? Brian Poole and the Tremoloes, round the corner

Well the bass guitarist used to live round in erm…Thicket Grove

No Rusper Road, he used to live in Rusper Road, the erm…bass guitarist, I think he came from Barking Brian Poole didn’t he?

John: yeah Brian Poole and the Tremoloes

Yeah…I don’t if it was Barking he came from…but I know the bass guitarist Alan something used to live in there, but erm ah…as I say used to…used to Sally Army used to play in it didn’t they?

John: mmh

You know some…I don’t know if it was every Sunday but…you know used to play in the band…it was a big bandstand as well, not a small one wasn’t it John?

John: no I think we got a photograph of it when

I have with Anthony Steel, I’ll have a look and find that for you, I was going to have a look earlier on and I…I don’t know if it’s in with mum’s photos, I’ll have a look

Well you can always give it to me another time [Laughs]

Yeah I’ll have a look you know over the weekend, and if I find it I’ll give it to you, and you can erm…what’s name it

John: take a photo of it

Erm you was talking about like erm like the lodge house…you was saying about the nice flowers…

Oh yeah it always had lovely flowers in the front and it was a nice house you know what I mean I think that took you eye when you went in cos it was…quite, quite a big house really ain’t it?

Mmh

And that it was quite nice there and that was nice and it had lovely flowers in the front and that it was nice

Yeah I was going to say erm you know like in the carnival and the fair did they have any animals or like…like any…

No did they?

John: I can’t remember

Used to have people dress up as clowns and walk along and things like that and…people dress up and ride bicycles , all for charity you know what I mean they rattled their buckets like they do, but I don’t think they had any animals no I can’t remember having any animals

Ok was there any circuses like did any circuses…

John: Zippos

Zippos…but it wasn’t when the carnival was on; it’d be at a different time

When did that used to come to the park?

Oh

John: round about bleeding August time

Yeah, no what year time?

I just meant…

John: about August, May

No not the…not talking about that, talking about 1967 or

No, no I meant what time of the year did it come to it?

Oh

John: August

Oh yeah August

How long did that used to last for?

John: about two weeks

It was only a couple…yeah two weeks, everything’s two weeks staying here

[Laughs] so what kind of stuff did they have there?

Well…don’t know cos we never went there, did we? Because I didn’t like circuses

John: I think your dad took you there to bleeding

Yeah dad took you I think

Oh I can’t remember

When you was little

John: yeah the horses and that all riding round

They’d have horses and things like that…I can’t remember…

John: I think your dad took you once

I don’t…

John: when you was little

It’d be horses and things like that, clowns and general things

John: there wasn’t no tigers

There was no animals like big animals there or that, I don’t think there was any elephants neither was there? Nothing, it was just like horses and…dog acts and things like that, I don’t think…I can’t remember they having any tigers or that there or anything like that, nothing dangerous you know

John: like lions

No nothing like that, it was just

John: horses and that

Weren’t it and they just did the…trapeze artists and the tightrope ones like that weren’t it?

John: mmh

And as I say the clowns, Zippos he was a clown weren’t he Zippo?

John: mmh

And that so…it all that sort of stuff

John: trapeze, what do they call them?

Eh?

John: what do they call them on the erm…

Trapeze

John: not…well you said the trapeze, the other one

Tightrope

John: tightrope that’s it

I said that to

[Laughs] so erm…did you used to go to like the carnival when you was younger or did you…?

Yeah, I used to go when I was little and when you know when Tony and Angela was

Oh ok how different was it like compared to when you went like when you was little to when you took…mum and Tony?

Well…it, it was alright

John: up to eighteen…when Ton…just before he, that September weren’t it?

It used…well it was alright ‘til about…I suppose

John: ’65, ‘64

No, no, no it’d be after that, I should say…

John: ’95, ‘94

I should say up to about the late eighties and then it gradually dwindled off and then it went…and then it came to…what was it, some…some day weren’t it?

John: yeah

Erm…Barking Day not Barking, someday it was and

John: that was the last one is ’94, when Ton was ill that time weren’t it?

Yeah, yeah well that’s the last time we went there, I don’t think…and it gradually dwindled and dwindled so there wasn’t many…floats and that you know what I mean

Yeah

It just went didn’t it? And then they had it…I don’t know what they called it, some day they called it…and I don’t think they have anything now, I never see anything

John: only go over Central Park don’t they?

Yeah we only have that Dagenham Town Show now

Yeah and I think like you know like…the thing where Sapphire went to like the Barking Park

John: yeah Central

What did she go to?

You know sometimes when like the rides there like the erm

Oh it’s

The fair

Just the fair

Yeah

Yeah they have the fair there yeah and that but they don’t…it…there’s no carnival

John: it was separate in Barking Park…and in Dagenham Park

It was no erm…

John: Dagenham Show and they had…Barking was separate

It was Barking carnival and it was Dagenham Town Show that’s what it used to be, but Barking carnival gradually dwindled by the end of the eighties, there was nothing left…early nineties…I don’t think they did anymore, it was just like…some day they called it, I don’t know it was stupid

Ok

But they don’t have it no more do they?

John: no ’95, ’94 it finished was the last one

Well you don’t…but that was the time we see it and it wasn’t much good then

Ok

There was a few floats; it wasn’t like it was before

John: cos they had the Odeon…were I worked you see, they had a float in there didn’t they?

But they yeah, they used to have a lot of erm…as I say you have a float, a couple of floats then you’d have a band, there used to be loads of bands didn’t there? And the Dagenham girl pipers and all that, but you don’t get none of that now

John: and that film called, film called Speed, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen it that

Yeah she knows, that’s nothing to do with the park

John: no but as I say XXXX in the carnival

They had a carnival about that film speed, well that’s you know

John: they had a special American coach they hired that it’s it…

Erm I was going to say erm…how much was like erm the train like how much was it to go on the train when you was little?

Oh it was only about thrupenny weren’t it?

What about when erm Tony and mum used to…

How much did we used to pay when Tony…wasn’t all that much was it?

John: no

A couple of bob weren’t it? Half a crown something like there

Ok

Eh?

It’s ok

John: four and a half pence

Twelve and a half pence it would have been then, but it was two and six pence it was to us

John: half a crown

Something like that it wasn’t a lot you know just little ride sort of thing Shillings really weren’t it? Used to go on it, it…well it wasn’t a very long ride but it was nice weren’t it? Took you from one end…from beginning to the end of the park [Laughs] you know straight line

Yeah ok

John: and back again

I don’t think I can think of anything else so like

No I don’t think…

Unless, unless like you want to say anything else

I can’t think of anything else, can’t you? Eh?

John: no not really

Not really, that was it

John: XXXX just sit over there weren’t it XXXX

Yeah they used to have the what’s name…used to sit and listen to the people play didn’t they?

John: yeah

In the summer

Wait what how to do you mean?

Well you know like you see them sit around and listen to the band

John: the bandstand

By the bandstand

Ok what so did they used to have stuff like every summer or…?

I don’t know about every Sunday but it used to be on a Sunday mostly didn’t it?

John: yeah

And that but I don’t know about every Sunday

Ok

And that

John: [Yawns]

But erm…you know you…well I never went every Sunday so I wouldn’t know but…when…if we’ve been there they’ve had them ain’t they?

John: yeah

And that yeah, it’s quite nice

Alright unless you want to add anything else I can’t think of anything

No I can’t think of anything else [Laughs]

Ok

About the rest of my recollection you know what I mean

Well I think we’ve got enough anyway

You think you’ve got enough, you can XXXX Paris

Well because like…because really where it’s only talking about Barking Park so…

Yeah

We’ve talked about a lot anyway so I think that will be fine [Laughs]

Yeah

Unless granddad wants to add anything…add anything

Do you want to add anything John?

John: not really no I wasn’t here much…nan’s more or less…it’s only when Ton and your mum…used to take them over but that was it

Yeah

John: the park

Ok

But as I say…it was a nice park though weren’t it?

John: yeah

Well erm did you used to take me over there when I was little or…

We have been with your mum and that

Oh ok what did you used to do like when you used to take me?

Well you just more or less go on the swings and that when you was little, go over there and take…you know have something to eat and that

Alright

Yeah your mum used to…

When did they close down like the restaurant in there?

I don’t know that just sort of dwindled, it was, it was still stood but never open, but that…the lido has been

John: must have been the eighties I reckon

Yeah the eighties I reckon and that outdoor swimming pool and that ain’t it?

John: yeah, all shut down now

I can’t remember the exact date but they erm they shut it down because they said they couldn’t afford to keep it open cos it…it never…in the winter

Yeah

You couldn’t use it could you so it was only the few summer months where they got…it was a nice lido weren’t it?

John: last time I see it, it was full of weeds

Yeah, had all fountains in it and it was lovely and it used to have a big terrace where you could sit and sunbathe and that was nice

Yeah mmh yeah how erm what did the fountains look like?

Well…just…like a big like bowl and they’d have another bowl on top and it all used to come out

Ok

It was like a spray weren’t it?

John: mmh

It was nice

So did…erm did they have any like seats like where you sit around the pool, was it like sunbeds or?

No they didn’t have no seats, it had steps what you went up to get up to…you know the pool was there and you went them steps and you could…well you just sat on your towel or that up the top

Ok

Yeah

Alright

John: I don’t know if they’re renovating it now for the Olympics are they?

Well they were suppose…I don’t know they were going to something…

They’re like erm redoing like stuff up on it

Yeah

And they’re going to build like an education centre

John: ah

For schools and all that

Oh yeah

They’re just like…they drained off all the lake

Yeah

And they’re putting it all back into…so they cleaned up all the lake

Oh they cleaned it all up yeah because it did go down hill

Well they’re finishing it next year and then like…erm…I was told that like everybody who like erm…is like…is interview like for this project get, get to be invited to the launch of it, so

[Laughs] you get invited to see the launch

Yeah so like I think that’s in about April time

Oh

So like yeah [Laughs]

That should be nice

So like erm I think they’re just like redoing everything up and all that

Yeah, well it did go down didn’t it?

John: well you can see the contractors when you go by on the bus [Yawns]

Yeah

John: XXXX doing something

It wend down you know sort of, go worn out looking and that and…I suppose, well I suppose people didn’t go so much, if the poor XXXX

John: see you never had tele like you do now and that

Eh?

John: cos all you had was the cinema and that weren’t it?

Yeah but I mean no the thing is the restaurant went, didn’t it? The little train didn’t run no more did it? And then the erm…

John: we used to have a boat upside down, somewhere near the gate weren’t it?

Mmh

John: do you remember that?

Used to have an upside down boat on the side

Yeah

John: rowing boat so it more or less told you, you can do rowing in there

Mmh

I think they’re doing a new a café there

They’re doing another café, see everything sort shut down and I suppose that’s why people never went so much…and that because if you’ve got the café and that you can go early can’t you?

Yeah

Have something to eat and drink and then carry on the afternoon

Yeah

But if you…you know can’t get anything to eat and drink, I suppose people didn’t bother

John: well when you think of it I mean it’s the time have changed ain’t they?

Yeah

John: I mean never had cars and that when we was young

No

John: and married and that

No

John: yeah see and erm it’s the periods it’s changes around and people have different interests don’t they?

Yeah

Yeah

John: that was like a civic centre…they had erm…what’s it…they showed you on the tele once, it was over Chingford…erm they used to have a carnival over Chingford where I used to live and they had the pearly kings and it was my mate’s erm…brother Ted, you see it on the tele, he was pearly king

Yeah

John: Rob’s pearly king

I think…did they used to have the pearly kings and queens…I don’t know I can’t remember, but I don’t know if they used to come to the carnival as well you know what I mean

Yeah

John: yeah pearly kings and that

Yeah, anywhere to make money the pearly kings and queens…charities and that

Yeah well anyway

John: that chap outside…down Romford you see, the pearly king, old boy

Mmh

John: he used…he knows my…old Rob Arrowsmith, he’s pearly king down XXXX in Yarmouth way now

Yeah

John: yeah they were all pearly kings from XXXX, from Bethnal green

Ok well anyway so

So that’s it?

Yeah I think

John: [Loud clap]

Oh don’t clap she’s got the thing on

John: that’s it

He’s got a thing about clapping

[Laughs] anyway I’ll turn it off then

Yeah

Because I think…

I think that’s about it…if I think anymore I’ll tell you

Ok yeah

I don’t…can’t think of nothing else

Ok ill stop it then

That’s it

[TAPE END]

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Irene Sydes

Project: Barking Park

Date: 9^th December 2011

Language: English

Venue: Interviewee’s Home

Name of interviewer: Paris Sydes

Length of interview: 47.52

Transcribed by: Paris Sydes

Archive Ref: 2011_esch_BaPa_15

2011_esch_BaPa_16

2011_esch_BaPa_16

Ok so this is Claire Days interviewing Alec Everitt on the 19^Th December 2011 and can I ask you to say your full name and date of birth please

Yes is Alec Albert Edmond Everitt, and it’s the14 of April 1948

(14 April) 1948 that is fantastic and can I ask where you were born?

Islington on Highbury fields well that of curse not exactly true, err it is a very grounded xxx building opposite err on Highbury fields my Mum and Dad had one room, and a biscuit teen, I remember at the time um, and that err xxx then I moved when I was about two years old, three years old I went to Clarkson road Barking, which is now part of the Gascoigne estate, and I had a very –very happy few years xxx two up two down scout age, in the xxx back on to the xxx factory, and err and look back at my years at the infant school, some of the happiest days of my life I most err then we moved to East ham err I was educated at the primary school Kensington Avenue primary school, and East Ham grammar school, very please to get out of East ham grammar school, because I wasn’t good at that, intellectually wish to be at grammar school

How did you end up in grammar school?

Err, xxx my err we done the eleven plus in those days my younger brother who xx got the same school as me, who is born in September didn’t get the age allowance, and xx went to Thomas xxx modern and had wonderful five years there because he was at the top of his school, I on the other hand got I think six or seven extra point for age allowance and ended up in the F stream at, it was A down to F and I was in the F, and I hang on to the bottom of the F by my finger nails for five years, thoroughly miserable, struggling um and err wishing I wasn’t really there, and to be honest with you my parent and two or three generation before they were milliners and I had always known that when I left school I was going to go in to the family business, so I want very interested in education because I had made up my mind totally what I was going to do, err I lefty err East ham grammar school, with English oral, err history, and art, so I could I knew where I was going I can tell you about it and I can drew a picture of it, but apart from there (laughing) but err then I went in to the family xx just had xxx you know what I mean, I was born in to a family xxx and um if you know something, you can sell it and I really knew it, because I can bake xxx velvet hat, feather hat, floral hat, fur hat, any hat I mean I spend my work doing what we used to called home work, I use to making hat you know, that is how I got my pocket money, so when I finally got out to start selling and the first order I got was, at um Peter xxx in xxx square, at the age of seventeen, and err from then on it was just xxx it was just because when a buyer err this are all women of a certain age, would say well I like that, but I don't like that, or I want that, I can actually say A because, I was the son of the owner , or xxx my Father, but also from xxx I say well, if you don't have that it will be that much less or err if you want that, it will be so much more, because I can actually give them the because you know, and once they knew I actually know what I was talking about you know, just and I was seventeen xxx little waste and, I was having a xxx absolutely

It sound wonderful

It was wonderful absolutely wonderful, and I came back with err and enormous order from xxx I haven’t gone to xxx, I didn’t know they exited; they where xxx farm at the time, and I was selling at xxx in Oxford street, and she said you are not selling this to xxx are you? I said no, which was absolutely true, because I had no idea what she was talking about, and I left the xxx and I went outside to a public telephone box, who had telephone directive in the time, I look up xxx and phone them up, and they happen to be central xxx in err Tottenham court road, xxx hills, explains who I was could I come along and show them my sample yes I went along, and um I have no idea they are central xxx, they were buying for few but I had no idea how many, and they pick out a dozen hat, and they said well what colour do you do them, that okay fair enough, thirty or forty colour, like a paint range xx, okay we will have that hat, we will have one of each colour, and we will put them in to our stores, and they were like twelve hats, and then the err that was about sixty seven something like that, sixty six, hold on how old was it, um that most be sixteen err seventeen, yes sixty seven something like that and the order come to, over two thousand pound, when I joined the fire brigade, in 1969 my annual pay was six hundred, so it give you some idea, I had already open up with xxx which neither my grandfather my Father xxx do so they were quite opposite, and I was doing London xxx (co-op) at the royal arsenal xxx (co-op) and various other groups basically I was very xxx sell, it just brilliant

Did you think your Father was very-very proud of you?

Yes, my Grandfather was not, not so he was pretty upset that because he was trying to tell how to sell, and err I was opening up with all the stores he was able to an, and selling hat; like he couldn’t believed so um I forget the phrase, I shouldn’t forget um but it was I will think of it at some stage, but he was a flash guy xx you know, but um that was the err that was generation of the war, xxx and all rest of, I came in xxx you know in his view showed him how it was done really, he wasn’t happy dad was proud, but the problem was that err I came back from that big order, and my Father said ok, Son you are in the office from now on, and I said no, you know I don't do office, I sell, and he said no- no, because my younger brother was in the office as well,. I said no, get on with brother fine, but no, we are not going to get on twenty four house a day, and I don't do office work, and err he said what happen? Xxx we get far too many orders, we can’t possibly produce them, so you have to stop selling, I said ho no- no, you err you got to expand, and err we agree to disagree um and although we are best mates now at the time I was xx because apart from anything else I was on commission, and err no-no I am not going to come in to the office err so we had a heart to heart, and I was still living at home at the time, and I applied to join the fire brigade, and they accepted me

Wow

Yeah it was difficult to get in those days

Could you describe the process of applying to be in the fire brigade if that is ok?

I turned up at my interview, there was forty two of us, when short listed, and I was on the forty two because I went in with, I had always had a problem, I have always had a knee cap (laughing)

Nothing wrong with that

As you can probably tell, and I went in and I went in with a Bess knee, a why would they not employ me because I was xxx I was earning quite a lot of money going down to petty cash really, it just awful money in the pocket, fifty six hours a week you know, why wouldn’t they err basically, why won’t they employ me you know, and I turned up to my interview, in a, I thought I was in business, I had a light gray Edwardian long coat velvet shut on, well when I say velvet shut it was, it was xxx shut but a silk shut it had um velvet colour and cough, I had a xxx shirt with a cut away bow tie cut away err west Coat on, and err buckle black shoe, I mean I sat back in there I think well you know, first thing xxx like pocket you know xx well yeah you know, xxx any questions well here I am, that is right, I mean knowing what I know now, xxx but they, I think what they, xxx been the youngest queens scout, they most have though well, I know what their eyes are seeing, but there must be something, xxx and the worst the very list we can give him to a bunch of bloke to play with for a few month, before he resigns (coughing) and um there were four of us, who are accepted out of that forty two, one of which was err had his employment um withdrawn after they check the references, because they check the references xxx after they gone through all that, err you had to go through an interview you had to go through the strength test then you had to go for medical, and you past all that, and been offer a job, they then check the references xxx very strange

That is quite sad isn’t it?

Yeah –yeah, the chap I remember, I remember his name but I won’t err say it but, he um because we get on quite a house on fire, xxx me pardon but he was previously employed by the post office and obviously there was a problem, then the post office had given him a bad report, it is probably why he left the post office I don't know, anyway so there was just err three of us left um, off I went to Finchley training school, because that was supposed to be the training school for officers of the future, you see it all down to gift xx, because I had you know intellectually I was never, it was never going to happen

You must have had a natural xxx (ability) for this sort of thing

Yeah I must have convince them that I was you know, I don't know, but they send me I didn’t know at the time, till I got there, and err we was informed that we were the you know not there leaders but we were expected, the once that were expected to go on through the rank you know, and all the rest were been trained at Southwark, ours was a shorter course for some reasons , but you can imagine, I had absolutely no , I mean I have been I was in err I was working in the business, for women, err selling to women produce by women, all our staff are women the only two men three men in my life was Grandfather, my father, and my brother, everybody else, everything everybody was a woman, so suddenly you know I thought it was good idea to join the fire brigade ooh god, xxx probably deservedly as well i must been such an idiot

Was it quite sort of almost like a culture shock really?

Totally

Yeah

Totally but it was only err when I get to my station it was worst, of course, um I went to Plaistow for the first year, and I was absolutely useless to then because um they were, A I wasn’t the Alec you see now, you can imagine you know, um I had the only car at the station at the time, xxx I have to encourage xxx bunch of blokes and I turned up and I was always wearing this outrageous, now I look back it was perfectly normal but I was wearing outrageous cloth, had life experiences that must be sounded like I was showing off, but err it was just my life experiences you know, and err after the first year I um I was very lucky, I was able to leave all my mistake behind me, and xx in charge of the xxx at the time xxx and um he knew what the scour was and he obviously seen that I regret something, I have done and said, I was happy to learn, err I got xxx here at East ham would you like to come here, I said this was very kind of it, but I thanks him years later, err I bump into him, and err it was that was it, that was fine that was run by, I spend the year learning how not behave or how to behave which other way, and I spend the rest of my carrier in the fire brigade just having a bowl, just having a xxx all I remember doing is I was up err the tower the xx in Plaistow um, and a length of rope when I first joined um you know what I can’t believed that I xxx no-no it will come back to me,

Probably about three o’clock in the morning or something

Yeah, I was at Moorgate, I was one of the first crew, I was in the first crew that went in to the largest pieces tower fire in London at the time which was xxx I was with the guy who was the stage officer who was absolutely magnificent, as a fire fighter, you know I was lucky I had two of them, and you follow them till the end of the xxx um useless manager, but you forgive many things because he was just such a great fire fighter and in dose days you were really busy and err we was in xxx and err there was four of us in there, err xxx who was later the senior officer who had overall responsibility for Kings cross, and if it went wrong with him, in charge it was a really unusual xxx um and the chap called xxx who went up through the ranks and um xxx Frank xxx who end up the chief fire officer driver and myself and we in there, and this chap xxx station officer we drop the horse and he turned around and as he started running he said to us “run” and if xxx run you know you are in deep –deep, and we ran, and memory recalled xx the flames and you could hear it bubbling behind us, looking at what it was, surly it must xxx penny must have drop with him and it was the xxx and xx between the thick walls of the xx coal store that was and of course once that get to certain temperature it blows the walls you don't want to be anywhere near when it blows the wall, it hot and boiling tar and um we ran, and it turn out to be a fifty five pumper, which was the largest piece time fire at the time, and I had the honour of running out of it (laughing)

My goodness I think I would have run pretty fast as well myself

Yeah- yeah I don't think to be honest with you I have never every run out of a fire, to be honest with you I never went in to too many either, as a young man I enjoyed it, but err I always had the fortune of xxx saving with some great fire fighters, and we all had our xxx (four tires) my four tires was driving fire engines you know they always be screaming, say if you, this are usually brave men, if they were given new constructive advice from back, say how to do how not to do, you know um you are doing right and um and I just absolutely adore driving and um because u suppose I could do it well, which was nice, and I had a complement xxx(pay to me) this Christmas by another driver who um from a different station, as it turned out and we were socialising together and he turned round to xxx he said um no-no that my nick name, he said no –no, best driver in the London fire brigade, I thought that is really I mean it was really nice, really kind for one driver to say you are better than me, men don't that do they? Um and err so that I was xxx jacking, anything higher, you know anything high that was everybody knew that was my job and dealing with the general public, you know because I tend to they do as they were told, err by getting hot wet and dirty, you know I was been pay the same money, they loved it I say well I will stand out here and drive my fire engine empress the public get them to the right place as quick as anybody else, and then I will do what I had to do, as a xx but basically after the first few seconds I was stand xx uniform had my picture taken you know(laughing)

(Laughing), it sound like been famous because obviously been a fire man is very prestigious isn’t it

Absolutely

Did you like the uniform?

Ooh yeah

I supposed been a man in fashion previously you must xxx As well

Well you are a woman you know what I say, err you know you only get to go out and just mention you are a fire man (laughing)

(Laughing) not bad love really

What is it about fire man xxx (laughing?)

It is just men in uniform in general I think (laughing)

That is right yeah, but err my wife I often laugh you know you can xxx (television) as soon as the contestant mention they are fire man, xxx I was a contestant on count down

Ooh really

Yeah, I xx the days of xxx

What was he like?

Err very- very intelligent clever man, what he realised was that, what the dictionary xxx and with xxx and two contestant doing the best they could, the last thing the program needed was another clever xxx so he acted the xxx on the screen but off screen I just founded him very- very pleasant agreeable intelligent xxx we sat through a few recoding, and you know you worked it out, what he was actually doing you know, err yeah I didn’t do too well I must admit, but um

You clam the fame thou

Yeah-yeah xx station at xxx I was there by then, and err bells went down count down and he came up, and as we were running for the xxx came up xxx the nine letter word I think it was inspector, and because with the TRIN you know the ending xxx so everybody was looking, I-E-S-T ooh I mean, err you know all the trick of the trade putting all those endings seal those ends S-I-O-N-T-O-A-N um but xxx I went how the fuck bloody hell did, go down the bottom, I thought well, I don't know you know did you get it? And they said no they have take all xxx it just one of those things probably from reading books, and my younger brother and my younger sister scan a page and see the spelling mistake or xxx, without actual reading it, you are totally useless talent, and err they said why not you xxx go on err on count down, by the time my time come up, I have actually retired, I was a retired fire fighter by the time, you know you can, as soon as you mention it you are a fire man, retired fire man you just get treated just a little bit differently yeah

Why I think you know a lot of people thought you know fire man deserve respect for the jobs that they do you know they put their self in danger for other people don't they

They don't see that but err others do I mean, police were far more danger then, xxx couldn’t dream of doing that job, couldn’t dream of doing that job, err there is also xxx I had done it for nothing, I really genially would have done it for nothing, and I was xxx I probably could have done it for nothing but err just because you know I was just xxx born with a silver spoon I suppose or whatever you know, my great Grandfather sold a farm in xxx and that formed part of the family fortune for one of the better words no fortune but you know, and we always work as well so it not really been spent it just been used and err my great Grandfather had a bakery in Ripple Road my Grandfather had a general stores in North Street, I got picture of that somewhere, I don't know whether I still got picture of it my Father certainly dose um yeah the old xx street xxx general stores

They are quite entrepreneur your family

Yes, yes and they were in to tiles, as well as before and during the second world war, and after second world war was over um my Father come out the RAF they went from tiles in to xxx and err the stores were two shops xxx my great Grandfather xxx my grandfather sold the store and they went into direct manufacture xxx because every woman wear a hat, and um it was just, it was for me it was just a great life, absolutely great life, so that were I come from you know,

Ok fantastic, if it is ok I will just jump back a little bit now, um and your earliest memories of Barking Park, would you have gone there as a child, do you think

Absolutely because of I was off Clarkson Road I used to take my younger brother my, sister was not xxx then, and er my err cousins, to Great fields park to used the paddling pool there,

Ok

Because with no traffic about, kids could go to the park for a day, with their jam sandwiches and lemon aid water you know xxx for a day, but on a rear occasion we actually had some money, err we came to Barking Park, to err am not xxx when it close but I think it was probably less than that to get on the err paddle steamer, well supposedly paddle steamer, it is a great xxx of err, you obviously heard about the paddle steamer

Could you tell us about it thou a little bit for the tape if that is ok

Yeah not at all, it err it was, it sat about forty people on rows, err benches that went from side to side, and it had the xxx and err the steam boat preservation society, came down to save it, when they find it, they were actually horrify, to find out that they had err a xxx diesel engine in it and a propeller, but it was such a great mock up what they done it that they put some peddles at the back on a concentric xxx so that as the boat went through the water, it turn the peddles, the paddles been on the concentric xxx actually push the levers backwards this rods backward and forward they brace on to this err arms so coco tines with xxx inside so as the arms went xxx the wheel went round and push the arms backwards and forwards and the tins the coco tines were brace on to the side of it had xxx went xxx (noise) so that got the noise, and they pump up water out of the lake and pump it in a very-very fine jet into the upright exhaust, so it instantly turn into steam so you got steam coming out of the top you got the paddle going round at the back noise and everybody well most people, the worker not everybody had a cars in those day, I mean it,

(Laughing)

Sorry about that not everybody had a cars in those day, so um you know people were not quite, were more naive about powering in those days, and it was only the once that realised you don't start a steam engine up by turning a key (laughing)

(Laughing)

You know or stop it instantly by pulling the choke out, to stave the diesel engine, um and that went up to xxx reservoir, I don't think, it was taking up in September to be used on the then new xxx reservoir, um

Do you know what year that was sorry?

I think it was 55 but I don't know, it no- no- no sorry, um no sorry

No problem

It was certainly late middle to late fifties, and it might been fifty five actually I mean that was you know you first thought of xx best um, and it went up there in September to be used, to be used for the next season, um April by the April they were just as wise then as they are now, they put it at the side of the bank and expect it to still to be untaught, and by the April it been burn out that was the end of that, yeah bloody shame really, yeah so it never got used, err

What was like actually riding on it did you actually feel like it was an adventure or

Well yes I mean yes, I mean we are talking about pre nineteen fifty five, so I was born in forty eight so I mean as a five or six year old, err you know riding on it was err it went round the two island twice I think it done a circular rout round the two island, the top island were three island on the lake the top island by Ilford lane, and opposite the middle island err went round there and actually up on till last year the key side of the two metal caps were used to tie up are still there, but that went with all the refurbishment work, which is a shame really, um because in those days the park was used, what else would you do on a Sunday, you know two hours pubs are open for couple house Sunday lunch time and that was it

Right

Raining pictures, those who could afford it, jump on the train and went to south end and those who couldn’t went to Barking Park, in those days it was absolutely packed

So what other kind of things would you do with, um like you say, your younger brother and your cousin over there

Over there, err really not much, I don't recall we, if we were going there it would only be, our play park

Right

Was Great fields, but if we ended up with a birthday err you know, my birthday was April and my brother is in September, if we ended up with some birthday money or whatever as I recall, or whatever as grandparent treat, once or twice or three time a year we would go to Barking park, to ride on the train, and to go on the steam boat you know the paddle boat

Could you describe the experience of the train for me if that is ok

Well I don't really recall very much except that, thinking it was a great adventure especially when you know the first time, obviously we xxx find it by our self parent took us over there usually and to get on the train, because in those days we had a turn table at both end, but err to actually get on the train, all by yourself, and wave good bye to you parents, you know and really went through the lever crossing and outside, and every time I used to drive it and when I used xxx by myself I can see this kids faces, because that doesn’t changed, for the very first time of their lives they were actually saying, you know good bye waving good bye for mummy and daddy, they were going on a train ride all by them self, and I recall as been miles and miles (laughing) um

(Laughing)

But just for five minute, I was xxx you know and I was err and I could see that in the kids’ faces, when I used to operate it, and I tough I know how you feel you know, this is probably, because the fair every few second you are back round xxx see mum or dad, but on the train on that train, it was away, and as I say the level crossing made it quite special, and then to seat there and while the train turn round on a level crossing, to come back to pull you back up again, it was really, well it only been ten minute from start to finish you know, xxx you are probably only moving about you know three or four minute top wak but the whole experience, the experience you know, going back mum dad still there or whatever you know, yeah so that, so that is how it, that is how it all started, been in the park,

Do you remember the train going on a slightly different route?

No

No ok

Everybody said it did,

This is why I thought I asked laughing

Everybody said it did, and one of the drivers I used to employ absolutely xx black and blue that it run along the back of the park, and maybe it did, but the council don't hold any record of it doing that, have you find out any?

No, the only place where it say anything about it running along the back, um is from people that I have interview um they all kind of say slightly different thing about where it stop along the back as well

Yeah

So it all very confusing

Yeah I mean I mean I can’t say it didn’t happen, but surely in my err experience, err my life experience I mean I am sixty three, am talking about people who maybe eighty, maybe it did there so many people who say it did, I well I assume it most have done, but I don't see how and

Because they have even done excavation and things to find evidence of tracks I think along the back and I don't think they found anything at all

No I don't, I honestly think you know once, I don't think, you are relying on a recollection of tow, three, four year old kids, err they may have gone away for bit and then come back, and some suggested that it run along the back maybe, that would had been, that would had been lovely I must admit, and you know and different circumstance and I did applied to the council to change the rout of the train a couple time, one of them was to put it along the back, because it would had been great to have gone from South park drive entrance to xxx drive entrance, um it would had been a reasonably more interesting trip you know and err but that wasn’t to be, and I suppose that was because you know people think that it would be nice sometime they convince themselves it actually happen you know, that not it didn’t happen but, I know I asked the council for record of this they said xxx well I say I can sort of test the fact that maybe nineteen fifty three or I supposed I was five year old then, my definite recollections yeah you know it was always a steam train that ran up till nineteen sixty, it was always a steam train, that steam train still work running

Right

Um xxx that is up at xxx

Ok

It run round the road xxx it was coming back to Barking but a chap called err xxx or bloom who own the xxx bless him, err I have made err I got in contact with him and we came to a gentleman’s agreement to bring it back to Barking Park err two things happen, the err both of which err would had killed it standard, the council told me that because it was a smoke xx they wouldn’t allowed steam to run it, and B err this guy Bloom I think his name is err probably dead now his French for man said if that goes I go, so he said xxx obviously I got a Forman here that um I relay on totally so am sorry the deal is off, so xx tails I lose and tails I lose, so that is a shame that never happen, but that was rumour has it, I had no reason to doubt this has been true that rumour has it, that err I know xxx who was err in the an apprentices in the Ripple Road work shop at the time, he was an apprentice and he help built the loco the del-tic one that I used to run, um he help to built it, and err he that was put on the tracks on the first of May nineteen sixty, and err the story goes the council were king to go, the xxx was all out it was everywhere, there was no romance to the xxx because it was what was the only thing we had on rail way so, it was quite normal, um but the diesel del-tic engine was the space age, um space age xxx concept and they where king to upgrade um up read the loco, and the boiler where defective, or become defective on the steam train, and I understand it, it was weight for scrap, and sold as scrap, scrap value, it was then run at xx park, for a while and then sold on to xxx steam, and it is still running,

Wow, consider something sold for scrap is still doing ok isn’t it

Yeah

Wow

Well never mine I mean that del-tic well mine it was working because I actual bought it, err that old steam train, the del-tic will still be going really, but the park changed

Yeah

You know you can’t flog a dead horse so far, you have xxx

Of course yeah in term of the other facility in the park, things like the lido or the paddling pool or you know the rowing boats did you every experience any of that as a child or that all come much later

Ooh yes, yes I mean the xxx use to have um paddle handle xxx paddle boats, and they used to love going over there and have half hours on those as a young star, um and um when I was courting as a young teenager you know am my whole weeks err pocket money was taking a young lady over to Barking park, and show off and have a motor boat, about twenty minute I think it was that for seven and six pence, you can have a rowing boat for an hour’s for two and six but err, motor boat was far more impressive I thought, um yeah so I didn’t used that too often, but I used to enjoy you know that was worth doing, um and of causer when my son was born the first thing I did was he was born in seventy five, so he was probably two years old, take him over ride on the train, of course I turn up and

Ooh

So I went up to the town hall, and said is the train shut yet I said ooh I will reopen it they said no you won’t, err xxx by nineteen seventy nine I owned it

Wow

It got put on the back of a flat I hire a flat back truck and took it up to my firs station, it stood in the appliance room at Holloway fire station xxx for about three month, maybe long and every fire man that have any expertise on electrics and err mechanical engineering or um they all find excuse to come down from their various stations and we all used to get on with that, every nut and bolt on that thing came off, and I used to look at it, and think you know what on earth is going to happen when we put this lot back together again, we going to have a lot of bolt left over, I mean we had all the engine rewind and the motor rewind and the engine was reconditions and all the wiring was replace the break were upgraded, you know it was just because the lads you know it was better than polishing a fire engine, they and it was good for xxx I think xxx it was something that, in the end although it was, it was suppose to be a business, they can see that, there was some community advantage from it all you know so they just turn a blind eye, and err brought it back to the park, err done a few trial with it of course, and buy the level crossing because I can see it is a bit dangerous, and dangerously narrow, and err open up on the first of April nineteen eight, and err basically a fan fair because um I was on night xxx I went on night, it was err no I lied, sorry, the date was about that date but any way I got a xx call on the telephone not the internal telephone I was at the station, from the phone under the stirs, STD phone you know money the slot phone and a woman I suppose I xxx she said “hello my name is so and so and from London weekend television you know the new xxx I understand you going to open the xxx railway in Barking park” I went yeah because I was at the fire station I know, I just spend the last fifteen years at that time, a wind up you know, yeah and err you know I understand it is popular and blab la, I said look all I xxx sorry about this, I said but can I take your number, because I will phone you back, she said ooh yeah certainly, but why, well I said well it is the first of April, you know if you think that I am going to seat in the fire station and come up for this you know, of course I phone the number back, it was the switch board of London television and it was all confirmed, and the next week they turned up during the week we, unbelievable and that was broadcast you know team, we had two or three people, by the time I arrived, they have hook up, dozens of cables into a xxx terminal outside the pavement, you know dozen and dozen this big cables all the way down the whole length of the track on the pavement, camera up trees cameras on top of the vans cameras in you know I forgotten her name now, but a presenter that I recognised…and they spent…all day…just taking a film of me going up and down with people on…and I went to the fire station that night…got in time cos we start at six o’clock in those days, switch on the television, erm London weekend XXXX and there was this fabulous train, I mean absolutely unbelievable I mean I didn’t recognise it, I mean they do have a skill, I mean you know what it is over there but…if you had no idea of what the miniature railway in Barking Park was like, you’d a think well I’ve got to go there that looks fantastic, you know

They shot it really well did they?

Oh brilliant so clever, you know I mean it was truthful but you know…you know you can do it right or you can do it wrong and they did it so right and erm well the next weekend it was just ludicrous, it was just…absolutely ludicrous…erm I think…I mean we did it so wrong we had no idea what…we had no concept of running it really cos…we had no idea of running it…we were told we were only doing singles…in our…erm in our attempt to erm play fair with everybody but actually that worked…well that was actually the wrong thing to do if we had actually done more customers if we had done returns cos…you know cos your actually taking time to get them off, they were joining the queue to get back on again…erm my recollection is that we took about a hundred pounds doing totally wrong at ten p each you know and erm…we had, we had absolutely…we were doing so wrong it was taking forever, I mean…ten years later given that same scenario you know, we probably done four times as much, but we didn’t know what we were doing, you know I mean with actually the physical operating of you know…we obviously knew…the mechanics of it all but the mechanics of putting passengers on and off and…running the thing…we did it so wrong but…but anyway that adds to the erm mystic of it I mean people…people were a long it time to get on the train to do one side of a park you know, but they…cos they’d seen it on the ITN news or London weekend…and they’ve come back…kids my age were coming back to bring their kids back on cos it was reopening again

How did that make you feel, cos obviously the train something that a lot people remember from their childhood

Absolutely brilliant I mean you can can’t you? I’m thinking Christ this was so popular and I wasn’t…you know I was in the fire brigade, I mean I wasn’t going to give my job up for…it was never in that league but…how on earth am I going to run this all the days that I say I’m going to run it you know…how am I going to be able to run these weekends and school holidays, I don’t want to say I’ll work weekends, school holidays and not turn up because if people turn up and you’re not open once they don’t come back you know, but as it turned out it was erm it was fine, I did it…personal every day that I possibly could and then friends, family you know we all got pitched in and some of the lads XXXX that had actually helped to strip down and rebuild the train were probably more capable of driving then I was

What was it like driving it because obviously as a child you would have been quite excited just being on the train but to actually drive it as an adult

That’s right, well the other hand of course that was tinged…you know it’s almost a love hate relationship because…that was tinged with a fact that you were actually responsible literally for the lives of other people’s children and of course being in the fire brigade, it does give you a strange outlook on life…you know you’re always asking the question what if…because when you go out to a incident…ninety nine point nine percent of the time it’s not really anybody that done anything really stupid…you know they’ve had an accident or…you know somebody else had an accident and it’s XXXX on their lives you know…so erm, like the silly things, like when I go to a hotel or a restaurant…erm hotel or…I was waiting for my father…last couple of days we stopped in a pub XXXX and erm…it was really weird I count steps, cos I know when it comes to it, if I have to get out, I want to know not only where the stairs are, but how many of them there are, so when you can’t see nothing you know how important that is, you know a you’re at the bottom or b if you’re at the bottom and you haven’t gone down fourteen steps, you’re not of the staircase you thought you were just on you know, and etc, etc and erm having these…erm these…I was really chuffed that I was able to…do something that maybe not many other people would do…and I was doing it very well…erm but also that suddenly why would I put myself in harm’s way, you know what if…you know what if you know and erm…because being in the park you always get the idiots who put something on the track, you know kids put something on the track or…

Did that ever happen?

Oh yeah, yeah hundreds of times, you know but I'm mean…it was all your spotting because you was looking for it…the difficult one to see what when they put stones in the points because we had four sets of points, so if they put stones in the points…on some points it was…it all depends which you’re going, it wasn’t XXXX…erm if they put the stones in the points on the outside one of say the lake station, it wasn’t a problem because you were coming in with a XXXX and when you went round the loop it was only you and the train…so if you and the train went over because you hadn’t spotted it, it was only you, it was when you were coming in with carriages and…the points were…half open because somebody had stuffed something in them or something…and you were taking carriages with on, you didn’t want…that never ever happened but erm…the train was derailed a few times but the carriages never went over erm because you was always…you know you was always looking but there were sometimes when you just really…it wasn’t possible to know erm…but erm we never ever had an accident ever so…we must have been something right, I got a letter from an insurance company somewhere XXXX actually wrote to the council and copied into me that said…well not that’s not true either I ended up with a copy of it of but they wrote to the council and said erm sort of a secret report basically behind my back…and said well ‘we’ve inspected the train, how comes this XXXX is you know…is running this train exactly as we hoped it would be run and you with all your finances were never able to?’ cos one thing I did and I mentioned it before, I worried about the level crossing…now unbeknown to me, the insurance company was asking the council to do that for years and years and years, but it was obvious it was…like three inch gap either side, far too narrow for a child’s head to go between a metal concrete post and a train, a moving train you know but and so the first thing I did was widen that level crossing…erm and you know it was just…we just run it properly and why would I throw away my fire brigade pension

Of course

[Laughs] for doing something stupid you know…so erm that was…I run that for the year and that’s after the first year…a there was this erm letter from the insurance company b I had a letter…and the council had actually taken the time and trouble, I’ve got it framed as well somewhere…when I get these things out I’ll send you a copy but…erm it said the following the recent meeting you know with the park’s committee, we’d like to take this opportunity to thank you very much for the way you’ve been…running the facilities in Barking Park…now even in those day the council didn’t take the time to say thank you and well done…you know they were too busy answering complaints and…erm you know other enquires so that was really, really, really unusual and very nice to receive and erm they said well we’ve just lost nine…a matter of public record, we’ve just lost ninety two thousand pounds running the boating lake in the…in the 1981 season…erm we’re thinking of putting it out to XXXX the boating concessions out to tender…if we did that would you be interested, I said oh yes…erm and…erm it did go on for tender and I was…did tender for it and it was successful

Sorry what year did you say that was sorry?

I erm, the last year that the council run the boating facilities was in 1981 and they shut Barking Park and Mayesbrook Park down, they gave me, Barking Park because I wasn’t interested in Mayesbrook…and they gave a chap called Mr Johnson…the boating facility at Mayesbrook because he wasn’t interested in Barking Park, it just fell into their laps you know, erm sadly Mr Johnson wasn’t able to…you know realise his dreams of how he envisioned Mayesbrook ended up…and I did run it for a year myself having had my arm twist up severely by Jack Walker the Park’s manager and I said, I went back to him I spent my day in crown court and all the rest of it, it was horrendous…and I said look I don’t care what you say Jack erm or Mr Walker in those days erm I don’t care what you say Mr Walker, there’s no way I'm running Mayesbrook Park and if that means you know you’re going to take Barking Park away from me, then so be it because it’s exactly how I’d thought it was going to be…it’s horrendous…and he said oh great that’s all I wanted to know because I knew if that if you wasn’t going to run it to free…cos they gave it to us XXXX for nothing…if you weren’t going to run it for free, then nobody was going to run it, so now we know…and then that was it, then it was just shut down, just given to…or the equipment over there was given to education, an education run it very successfully for…funded differently…erm for years and years and year and it’s a great, great shame that erm they shut that down, education shut it down…still that’s another political decision…I won’t get involved myself in, but after I opened up Barking Park, or kept it open erm… then I opened the putting course, reopened the putting course, run that for four or five years and following erm a…a debate at Park’s committee about…erm the park and the facility there, erm…I said something like you know well you’re a labour councillor, you know and…you’ve vandalised the swimming pool to make sure that nobody opens it, cos they came in one day convoy because they knew that I was interested in reopening it…cos Bill Smith was the chief executive at the time and I said to him I can’t believe that…you’ve opened er Barking Abbey puddle, you know that tiny little sports centre and all you actually need to do for a fraction of the cost was put a thermostatically er plastic opening roof you know on the lido there and you’ve got rid of all of our, you can open 365 days a year if you want to, all your over night vandalism has stopped er you can be a lido when you need to be a lido blah blah blah and you could see his face you didn’t have to say anything you could see in his face you know why, why didn’t we think of that and er I made it known that I was interested in doing something like that and I just got a no no no no no no and at the same meeting and fair enough okay, when you say yes you say yes but when you say no you mean no and you’ve said no so many bloody times you know I’ll stop kicking a dead horse and literally the next day the side wall came, the side wall was knocked down and a convoy of lorries came in and filled it up with rubble and dirt and just to make sure that when they say no they meant no and uh that was the end of that and I was still banging on about services in the park and making it attractive to people to come to the park because it had chance from a park where when people came for the day they never ever got that the one thing you need in a public park of that of that ilk is a decent cafe, decent cafe and toilets you’ve got people for a whole day, that’s all you need erm and it’s the one thing that we never ever had over there, it’s most peculiar and they’re putting that right I mean I will give them the credit of saying that is the one thing they’re doing right over there. While they’ll have a decent cafe whether it’ll be run properly or not I don’t know, there ought to have been a decent cafe when I was over there but they just were absolutely had the most peculiar people running it. Barking Park, you know in Barking East London woman they’re only going to get ripped off once and you know in those days they were selling a packet of chips for £1 well we’re going back fifteen – twenty years a mum with four kids in tow off the Gascoigne they’re only going to when they could go to McDonalds and get them for forty or fifty pence they’re not going to be stitched up in a park for a pound so you know then we started seeing all the food hampers coming back in but of course any decent toilets in there we really was flogging a dead horse, I remember writing a letter saying we got bored of going to the xxxx forty years ago and with a labour council they’re quite happy for young boys and girls to squat behind trees you know, what the hell is going on here? Is it me? Erm and it really is, was very bad I mean the original toilets had been upgraded but not enough electricity for them I mean people put they upgraded them and put hand dryers in and everything I don’t know if you’ve ever been told this but the first day they opened XXXX I put my hand under the hand dryer, the guy who worked for the council and lived in the flat above lost his electricity because there’s not enough electricity the supply wasn’t good enough.

That’s terrible isn’t it, to get that far and to put that much money into sort of renovating it

They never thought to check about the electrics supply, it just wasn’t there. Anyway yeah so that was eh so anyway that was the main the main problem with the park right from day one, although the train was popular of course, the boats were popular um the paddling pool was never that popular you were never going to make a living out of it but it was another reason for people to come and stay, you know. Uh but of course without a decent cafe and decent toilets you were just banging your head against a brick wall and then I had this row with them about the paddling pool and they said well if you think it’s so easy you do it so I said right okay, I will. I though okay they’ve stitched me up like a kipper here so me and another chap who I worked for when away on a pools park management course which meant that we were certificated enough to run swimming pools at the end of that three day course I said to the instructor ‘look we’re running a paddling pool for a few hours of a weekend and school holidays maybe in the summer, what do you think we have to do’ ‘well no you’ve just done this course you tell me what you think you have to do’ and I said ‘well to be honest with you, nothing at all’ and he said ‘you’re absolutely right’ he said ‘you’re putting thames water in there for a couple of hours and then emptying it back out again there’s absolutely, all you’ve got to do to the’ actually in the end well right the way through we were treating it with a substance called ficlaw (?) and it’s like perfect for correlation of the water and we kept the water absolutely bang on we had, because the council were a bit peeved that we were doing it and health and safety or an environmental officer came down from xxxx road, she obviously had an attitude problem she didn’t me from adam she hadn’t worked out the scenario at all maybe she thought I was being paid to run it but I was actually paying, I was operating a paddling pool for free providing this out of my own pocket, I had somebody on site permanently because of the childrens act and because I had someone who was on site permanently I had to give them shelter so I supplied the hut and everything and radio control so we could keep in touch and she couldn’t work it out and after a number of visits she said ‘oh the water’s perfect’ so I said I’m sure it is, why wouldn’t it be? You’re testing that amount of water you test it at the beginning then test it every hour and adjusting it with this ficlaw and she said then she told me about one or two of her experiences with other swimming pools around the borough. I said you’re joking, she said I’m not.

Was it really bad?

Well there was one, I won’t tell you the pool well I will because it’s no longer there as it is because it’s been knocked down, the fiddlers swimming pool. She said I walked in there one day she said I could smell the chlorine through the front door so she said she went in there and spoke to the manager and they and what you do is you take a sample of the water you put a tablet in, I mean I’m going back a long time ago now, he took a sample of the water and he put a tablet in and then it degraded colour wise and if it would turn a certain colour in the middle of the tube you knew whether it’s PH was too acid or not enough and you can adjust it with the chlorine and the they’d taken the sample and it was clear they’d put this tablet in and it was clear and they said blimey there’s not enough chlorine in. Now these are the people who run the public swimming pool and it’s all quite evident what you should do in these circumstances but they decided that if they weren’t detecting any PH level then they ought to put more chlorine in and they put more chlorine in and they supply it by a 5 litre drum still clear, put some more in on their first initial attempt what you’re meant to do if it stays clear because you know you’ve put a tablet in there take half the tube and top it up with drinking water so you dilute it by 50%, put a tablet in and see what happens then and then of course you would get a reading because what they’d actually done they’d over chlorinated the water so much the PH level, the acid level was so high that it had bleached the tablet and it was clear so instead of diluting it to see what would happen they’d instantly made up their mind that they didn’t put enough chlorine in and put even more chlorine in and they’d done that twice and in the end they had to shut, she shut them straight down.

I’m sure there were some very pink eyed children coming out

Well it cost a fortune because they had to you know dispose of half of the swimming bath water and place it through a meter just to get it down to somewhere that it was safe, incredible.

Anyway I wouldn’t say she stopped coming but she worked out that once again she opened up when I opened up there was definitely an attitude when she first arrived and I’m not quite sure how she liked me and my organisation you get a first impressions that and eh she as I say then she opened up and I won’t say she stopped coming but she knew that there was and I said, I’ve volunteered to run this and I’ve been on the pools plant management, he’s been on a pools plant management you know unless we, unless you consider we are the stupidest people in the world with this amount of water it would be the right thing so we can’t really do a lot wrong and why would I even risk my fire brigade pension, suppose my fire brigade pension was £1000 a month, you know £12000 suppose I survived for just twenty years you know it don’t take a lot of work, why would I throw XXXX and pound away for what, you know and er ah right ok, and then we got on the house you say, I keep on saying house [interviewer laughs] the park itself gradually started to die, the Sunday XXXX just killed the park. There is nothing that you can do about that. Erm I use to say that I could cover all of my expenses on twenty six dry Sundays. Erm but where soon as err where you go to Tescos now or Lakeside erm all those cars and all those people in all of those shops on a Sunday were either at Wester, erm, Southend in the pub for a couple of hours or in Barking park. I mean you could only just be real, I could say you would have to be a real idiot it if you could make err a you know make err it work erm because of course the council didn’t make it work so. [interviewer laughs] But of course they have different err different levels of paper work to stop corruption that I didn’t have. You know they had a manager in the town hall, if they had a manager in the town hall they had to have a secretary. Err he had people who would report to him, so they had to have a site managers. The site managers obviously did not want to get their hand dirty so they had change hands. Charge hands had form or form hands charge hands and they had two or three staff under them erm they basically only made money on a Saturday or on a Sunday. Of course on Saturday or Sundays when everybody’s rate err employment rates went up err as I understand it was double time on Satuday, triple time on Sunday, bank holiday it was triple time plus a day off in loop. And of course all those thing didn’t apply to me because you know, I employed people saying well you know I gonna be good employer but you know you work five days a week and Satuday and Sunday are included in those five days, you know and, you know, you either want the job or you don’t, you know. Erm and err well you know the council had hunted one chap off of me erm he is now of management level erm another chap is in charge of the erm who worked for me, he’s one, he’s now a shunter at erm Hammersmith Underground empire, I dunno about fifty grand a year erm another one is in charge of maintenance who worked the tower blocks of Canary Walf, so I given them all, I mean they are all the young men that joined me that I’ve taken on you know given them experience and the like, ones a project manager at the LSCM we all still get along together.

Yeah, I interviewed one lady actually you employed her grandson on the boating for a while, erm her names Margret Carrey, I can’t remember what her grandsons name is. Erm but apparently he was walking out of the park one night and he got mugged and he

Oh Billy Yeah, yes, yes.

Apparently like, you know, apparently you were quite supportive and you know.

Well that how the park became towards the end. That’s nothing to do with me. I got a letter from the council erm maybe a year or two.

Oh she certainly wasn’t blaming you for it.

No! No!

She said that you were really good XXXX

A year or two after I actually took over the boats erm unbeknown to me erm the erm the, it was a there was a report went to the parks committee erm point out the reduction in the vandalism budget in the park. And it was, I mean I hesitate to say because it sounds as though I am exaggerating but it had gone down by hundreds of thousands of pounds. That’s my recollection, it might have been tens of thousands but you mean you know how they seem. But it was thirty years ago it was money that you know you couldn’t, how much that’s not possible and err and the report was [fire engine siren] along those lines of that’s its gone down since Mr Everitt took over the boats because when we first took over them my wife xxxx we stood, we had twenty nine rowing boats out in the water and probably four of them were floating, maybe five of them were floating, and all the rest were sunk. You know kids in the water, oars all afloat, erm my wife said I can’t handle this you know, I said well I’m err a bit institutionalised and a fire brigade erm I didn’t like people misbehaving. And err she said if we don’t sort this out we’ll walk away, I said fine, that’s you know, we’ve either got to be in this together or not. And err and this chap who has ended up a manager at the council he was absolutely superb and he has strong a strong feeling or strong he knew what was, he had a strong belief of what was right and wrong. Erm and err he you know he said right I’m with you then go then, no problem at all. I said well I don’t want to lose my pension but we gotta, this is wrong. We have got to sort this out because all we’ve got is erm people that we don’t want as customers, and the mums and dads and nans and grans walking past because they would come on the lake because there is algae. Should we sort it out, well I said I can’t do it on me own, he said no problem, ha, and err I think we put a deposit on because the council could not do because they had to account xxxx only a small deposit but it was the difference between a kid walking home or getting the bus. Err and then we would err go use the staff boat seaming it was an all day from months and months because it was a seven days a week operation in those days. We would go up, pull along side, no humiliation and say look I’m sorry lads it’s not council anymore this is private, we you know, we don’t want you to be behaving like this. You’re welcome to come back and will give your money back or just behave yourself. You know what’s right and wrong. And ninety nine times out of hundred, I was gonna say nine out of ten, but ninety nine times out of, that’s all that was required. They look around see that everybody else is behaving, and xxxx knew that he meant it, and err you know they would say, you know young lads, so they would say look ok it’s your choice you’ve got your deposit, you know, you either bring it back or you don’t. and that would definitely sort it out. And then on the very, very, few occasions when you still had a problem then we had to do something about it, but if you put sixteen year old over you knee and smack his bum in front of his mates they’ll never come back. I mean we use to get all manner of threats. As they were walking away, but never anything ever came of it. You know and maybe six time times in two years, I was thirty years younger, I grabbed the ring leader and spring xxx and spank his bum. You know I probably could have lost my….. printed over that, but it was case of your not gonna let, I’m, not gonna let you win. And what happened then of course they, that element stopped coming over the park. The hoards of gangs, did have anything to come over, because if they were allowed to go on the boats, there was nothing there for them.

Did you kindda have like a wall of shame where you put peoples…

No they just assumed that I would remember their faces. [Interviewer says “Right”] There are absolutely, I mean there are thousands of people we saw and they had absolutely no chance remembering who they were, no chance at all. And I had one absolutely fabulous incident, I mean absolutely brilliant. It sort of made the whole thirty years of being in a park totally worthwhile. A young lad errr came over and I suppose he was sort of mid twenties [Interviewer says “Hmm”] and he walked through the gate, he didn’t want a boat, err there was a queue there, but he walked through the boat, there was a queue errr xxxx the boats xxxx the fence and he comes up and says “Afternoon”, I said “Afternoon young man”, you know he’s about my stamp and I thought I don’t recognise you, I don’t…..and he said errr “You’re still here then”, and I said [Laughs] “Oh yeah, yeah, yeah for me sins” and he said err, “I just thought”, he put his hand out to shake my hands and I shook his hands and err, “I just thought I’d tell you now, he said, I’m in the err Irish Rifles, or something he said, I’m in the Irish Rifles. So I said oh great, well done. He said, I just thought I’d let you know. I said Oh…brilliant [Interviewer laughs] very nice, nice to see ya and he, and he straight back and he sort of turned round walked off. And the only thing I can think of, is that…at some stage ten years ago [Laughs] I’d given him one of my one liners and he….we must have cut him to the quip and he, he just wanted to come over, to let me know that he hadn’t turned out, how I suggested he might have done [Laughs] you know? [Interview laughs] Oh and I thought well that’s…you know you can earn money but if you can actually…change people’s lives for the better [Interview says “Yeah”] and it obviously had. He was obviously a toe rag when I gave him some verbal [Interviewer Laughs] and he now he’s, he’s six foot two, he’s got a straight back, he’s full of self esteem and umm just had to come over to tell me, he was alright. Good on him. I thought fantastic!

Wonderful.

Isn’t that great?

That’s wonderful…..

Yeah

Like really lovely.

Yeah

Cos I can imagine you sort of saying, Oh Army’ll be good for you boy, or something….

[Interviewee Interrupts] Cos I used to say ummm…

….And then off he goes to the Army!

Oh well….one of the best ones How old are you mate?.......I’m Sixteen or Seventeen…[Interviewer says Hmm] or normally they’d say Fifteen cos they thought then you wouldn’t touch em….And I’d go..I’d sort of shut my eyes and went to them Oh my God….two or three years time you’re probably gonna be somebody’s father. Oh my gosh. [Interviewer laughs] And just walk away and let them think about it, you know. And err, and you could see, that really, I, I knew that would really work cos my wife was always sitting in the kiosk and she was always looking at a reaction, you know….. Umm…my…when it was coming close every now and again because it wasn’t all sweetness and light, most days it was….vast majority of the time but I would…had a habit of putting my hands in my pocket. Because I thought by the time I’ve taken my hands out of my pocket and done.. [Interviewer laughs] with clenched fist, I you know with, it takes a few seconds to… throw your pension away and I thought that might give me a chance to think. And my wife will come out and say, look my husband’s got his hands in a pockets, it’s, it’s time for you to go. [Interviewer says Hmm] Why? She says well…don’t be [Interviewer laughs] ….please don’t be around when he takes his hands out of his pockets. Because he might have a pension to throw away but he…by that time he’s worked, he’s worked out it’ll be worth it. You know. And errr…that would and off they would go. [Interviewer laughs] Jus, jus we did, we did have a lot of laughs over there, it was that aggravating. There was a chap I threw off because he was an absolute total utter racist [Interviewer says Right] you know and I, and I and then he decided he wasn’t gonna do as I told him and that was a mistake. So I dragged him in, literally physically dragged him out the boat….told him to go away and he stood at the gate and he was giving me this then that. And he said I’m err, I’m not a racist. I work for, I work on the buses or something like that, some old cobblers, you, you knew that was…….and I said, I said look mate just go away, you’ve had a result you’re still walking, just go away because you know, otherwise I’m gonna give you a real good hiding cos I’ve really had enough of you. And I need someone to vent this out on, I’ve had you know, cos to be honest with ya, after a few weeks, err, working over there seven days a week in school holidays, you know, somebody needs to take.

Drive a saint to distraction wouldn’t it?

Yes, quite.

[Interviewer laughs]

And instead of a gap there, we had a queue of people there, xxxx he says you can’t hit me, I’m, I’m only fifteen or summit like that. I said no, no, no, no, no, no, somebody’s got to teach you about the correct use of the English, English language, young man. What’s gonna happen, you’re gonna push me too far, he said I am going to knock seven bells of the proverbial out of ya. And when you get out of hospital, the police, you’re gonna tell the police, the police’ll come round and arrest me and I will go to the magistrates court. And I’ll be in a lot of trouble. But in the meantime, you are really gonna get hurt. [Interviewer laughs] I mean really gonna get hurt. And he, there was silence and there was silence all around because I think they…this queue of people were concerned that you know this was gonna turn ugly. And he was just about to say summink, turned round [knocks something] and went you know sorta like that….Woah! He’d of beat Linford Christie [Interviewer Laughs] and we’ve just, I remember one girl on the spike railings just falling over and going “ohohoh”. He didn’t turn round, he couldn’t afford to turn round, he, he he just, I mean I’d never’ve caught him in a million years. [Interviewer laughs] And we’re just, just everybody just fell about laughing and it all turned out to be quite funny and errr but suddenly you could see the bloke, an all the pans dropping off the shelf, oh yeah, yeah, he’s got a point, you know I don’t think I wanna be beaten up. You know? [Laughs] [Interviewer laughs] Back in the days…

He wasn’t all that stupid then? [Interviewer laughs]

No, No, I, I was the stupid one towards the end.. I er…I’ve had knives pulled on me over there [Interviewer whispers “Really?”] and er…oh yeah, you know, you know and every now and again you know you’re being quote ‘cased’, because people think you can walk out that park will ten thousand pound in cash, you know? And I was always, my wife and I, I was always being told that we were ..lazy driving to the park but of course err we never took, we never took cash out of there, at any time people would think ,we were taking cash out of there. But we had to get out of there …safely [Interviewer says “Hmm”] and the way you do it is we had our plans, we would get in our cars, two separate cars to drive here xxxx But we put the central looking on and we both knew what we were going to do in the event of, err a problem and errm and that’s why we went over err in our cars. Cos err especially towards the end, it was becoming quite unpleasant over there. [Interviewer says “Hmm”] Errm I errm….I, I remember clumping one chap, and I’m not used to em not going down and he just stood there and went….By this time my wife had called the police. My son who had been over there, had got a right hander and so straight away I’m, I’m away, [Interviewer says “Hmm”, you know, I don’t know what’s it’s all about, but this guy’s going down. And I, and I cornered him and I turned him round and I clumped him, you know cos I used to do and he just stood there and I went Oh my gawd, I’m in trouble now, xxxx, I’m not used to em not going down. And err, the police turned up eventually….and I said well be honest with you, I mean I have…you know he’s hit my son so I’ve caught up with him and I haven’t asked any questions, I mean I can’t believe he went, he never went down [Interviewer says “Hmm”] and he said Yeah, he’s obviously known to, he said you could have hit him with a baseball bat mate, you know he’s, he’s so high on drugs, he has no idea. And he said, we we’ll we’ve not really, you know [Clock chimes in background] never really encountered err….a drunk yeah [Interviewer says “Hmm”]….but not err drugs, it was just totally spaced out. And errr…

He probably didn’t even know what day of the week it was, did he?

No, No, No and they said, he, well you know, when he gets some of his senses back tomorrow, well, you know, you know, he’ll…aww…..[Interviewer laughs] My neck aches or my jaw aches…and [Interviewer laughs] he’ll have absolutely no recollection of what’s happened. Do we wanna press charges for clumping us? Well if he’s spaced out on…basically he won’t even remember he’s hit my son. [Interviewer says “Yeah”] Errm…you know..errr he accused my son of err baseballing him, baseballbatting his brother. [Interviewer says “Right”] My son err…is not his father’s son, he’s more like you know his mother’s side, I’m very proud of him, he’s done extraordinarily well but he’s not physical xxxx. And err, apart from that, according to the police, this guy had never had a brother, anyway [Laughing] [Interviewer laughs] But you know..[Interviewer continues laughing and says “Oh dear”] In the last days, we had a lump of wood we would leave in the park, we had a lump of wood over the boat house roof and the chap we was working for at the time, his wife had come to pick him up and it just missed her and the car….and I’m, I’m fifty five I spose summit like, well was I? No, no no that, it wasn’t that long ago, I can’t remember, late fifties. And errr I said Dan you take ya wife home, I’ll sort this out. Ok. Out, off they went and I….chased these guys…caught up them up, outside the park at the zebra crossing near Ilford Lane. Cos by the time they had started running away, I’d won now, you know if you were sensible you’d say right they’ve runaway, they’ve, they’ve yeah, four of them, asian lads…. But I caught up with em, it’s the Delboy thing, you know that…that err…errm.. scenario where Rodney caught up with em and they were running away and then suddenly the bloke turns round and you go “Aahhh” and these four lads thought xxxx this old, silly old sod xxxx who’s been chasing us, you know this is ridiculous, so they turned round and they kicked the shit out of me I errmm [Interviewer says “Oh my goodness”] I thought that err, my.. I always thought well what I’ll do, is I’ll make sure one…xxxx one comes in the ambulance with me, [Interviewer says “Hmm”] cos if I’ve got one, I’ve got em all. But I mean I kicked one between the legs and errm punched him and just, just thought that’s the one, you know, just picked up the one…But errm absolutely no affect at all. And err I got back all bloodied and errm busted glasses and gawd knows what errm…wife called the police…told em what had happened, they obviously recognised the four lads…and they said that err would you mind, you’ve been stabbed Mr Everitt, would you mind…letting us having a look. I said, I haven’t been stabbed! And they said I bet you have, you know. And I actually had to take my top off and they said you haven’t been stabbed! They, they really went like, you haven’t been stabbed! So no, I told you that I haven’t and they said well…go and pick six numbers then! Huh! You know, it’s your lucky day! If you haven’t been, you can’t believe you taken on them four and haven’t been stabbed.

So they were known for being in a gang with knives?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah that’s what they would do. They would taunt.. white English people and then errm..give them an excuse to use errm errm…I must have been lucky, I must have picked the one, the one that was probably the knifer and I, and I, picked on him just out of pure luck. And oh I’m thinking oh, this is not a good place to be anymore, I’m getting too old for this, you know. I, I remember thinking to myself, who the hell do I see in that mirror in the morning? [Interviewer says Hmm] I, I must be still seeing that thirty five year old, fit fireman that [Interviewer laughs] can take on the world….

I think we all do don’t we? So it’s fine. [Interviewer laughs]

Oh yeah, yeah we all do but when it comes to you it’s a bit of shock [Interviewer says Hmm] and that was all.. and erm…yeah, so but that’s it went to a…you know… we had gangs of Eastern Europeans turn up [Interviewer says Hmm] and I’m getting too old to, to deal with it now…gangs of Eastern Europeans we had err….gangs of err Africans….it’s just, it was starting to become unpleasant towards the end. I know hopefully they will, by upgrading everything errrr…they will be able to…that will maybe…….errr….errr yeah that’ll, you know, err, select who use the..errr…park by..errr….better and I see their reasoning [Interviewer says Hmmm] Errm but on the other hand, we had three hundred err short xxxx bowlers over there and they were all..errm old people. But they were all of a generation, that would get involved, even if, even to the level of saying Oi!, you know and they were all using that end of the park and we hardly had any problems at that end of the park, because you had three hundred people, not all on one day, but…a selection of coming in and out of that end..errm we, we, I mean these people are notorious cowards actually I mean [Hmmm] they, they don’t mind ripping up the trail bend on a lamp post in the middle of the night but they wouldn’t do it in front of anybody. [Interviewer says Yeah]..Err, so errr, you know the more people you get in there, the safer it is. And for some reason err you know, you would of thought they would have built a facility first, then transferred them, keep those people coming in and then do whatever they want to do after that but errm…that didn’t xxxx, although suggested, that wasn’t.. what they wanted to do but…it’s a shame.

That’s a shame.

It is a great shame. It was errm, I thought it was….totally against everything that a Labour Council would would stand for and I had a great respect for the old Labour councillors…mm but errm the, in the old days, when I was, well old days I mean I’m only going back to 1980, but even then you had strong characters that would tell the officers what they wanted to do. Errm sadly that’s...they’ve…I think…I’m, I’m I’m only aware of one strong councillor now [Interviewer says Hmmm] Errm and [Interviewer coughs] errm basically the officers tell the councillors, this is what we’re going to do, you know….are you going to agree or…lose. [Laughs] [Interviewer says Yeah] and that’s….

It’s more dictatorial isn’t it, I spose?

Very, it’s a great shame. [Interviewer sneezes] Great shame what’s happened, yes. Cos I’m sure a lot of these things…that have happened within borough, don’t really fall, hopefully they don’t fall easily on the councillors shoulders. [Interviewer says Hmm] I mean, how can you put a thirty metre whatever it is, white obelisk on a roundabout and light it up with.. pretty lights, all through the hours of darkness, at the same time to tell you, people to turn their television off to save electricity.. and do that whatever costs [Interviewer coughs and apologises] between the gas, immediately right in middle of Gascoigne and asbestos of Harts lane, where people can’t get their windows fixed. [Interviewer says Hmmm] You know, it’s… it’s just so crass.

It’s beyond belief isn’t it?

I know it’s not council money but…people in Gascoigne, the people in Harts Lane don’t..don’t distinguish it. [Hmmm] There’s, suddenly there’s this obelisk……err…and you can check this and I think I’ve got it virtually word prop- perfect [Interviewer coughs] to a amblematically represent the historical, multinature- multinational culture of the historically multi- caartol, multi cultural nature of the borough. In other words, if you try and query us and our motives, you will be classed as a racist.

Oh Christ.

Isn’t it? You know when ya work out what they say. So you can’t say well what a stupid…

You kind of feel like you can’t protest against the waste of money….

That’s right!

….even if it’s for that cause or yeah…

Clever isn’t it? Now what is twelve or sixteen pretty.. lights on a white [Interviewer laughs] [Laughs] obelisk. What is that got to do with the historical...multi...cultural nature of the borough? Clever.

If you find out, please do let me know. [Laughs]

Yes, quite.

And I’ll do the same.

And I know it’s not council money but.. they, somebody agreed for it to be done. And the same as the lights, the blue lights on the roundabout [Laughs] I a, when I was driving I, I was with my wife and I literally coming down Lodge Lane, Lodge Avenue and I literally had to pull up onto the pavement cos I was xxxx cos I’d been sold it as well. I was really looking forward to it because according to all reports, errr this special blue lights were gonna make it look as though the cars travelling over the flyover were travelling on a blue cloud.

Ok.

That’s how it was reported. And I got to Lodge Avenue and the Fire Brigade sort of sense of humour come in and I thought….it’s like the King’s clothes [Interviewer Laughs] Hold a minute, you pillock, it’s thirty two bleeding lights on silver poles, I mean what did you think [Interviewer Laughs] what on earth have you come, why did you believe, you know..you..

I’m sure the artist’s impression of it was absolutely wonderful though.

I pulled over, I had tears down my eyes, I just, just had to control myself from laughing and I thought, well I’ve just got, I’ve gotta meet this man cos I thought I was a salesman. [Interviewer laughs] But I’d like to meet this bloke. I mean what a salesman. [Hmmm] I mean so we got….errr a blue, thirty two blue lights, some of which were underneath the flyover…on silver…on silver poles, xxxx stainless steel poles and that’s all we got. [Hmmm].

I mean…it…and it brings the whole, the whole council, I believe into disrepute.

Yeah.

It’s like umm, I, I cornered Charlie Fairbrass on the steps of the Town Hall, when he was leader of the council. They’d just come out with their ‘Citizen’ newspaper and on, in, in once again your…. I’m not very good with the computers..but your xxxx

[Interviewer Laughs] I’m terrible.

Oh right ok, well there’s a front page…

I married someone in IT for that reason, so I wouldn’t have to deal with the computers. [Laughs]

Right on the front page of the local magazine, the Citizen I think it was called. And it said and I quote ‘Only fourteen per cent immigration in the borough’ and that’s all it had on the front page. The word only [Hmm], you know, you think, ohh, I mean as if, as if, you know there was, it was a problem, you know what I mean? You know, only fourteen per cent, as if it was more than that it would be a prob…[Hmm] And I said front page of the Citizen, oh what do you mean only fourteen per cent, he says oh well we’ve had a survey commissioned about it. Well I said, well yeah Ok stock answer. But you’ve, you’ve commissioned an answer, you haven’t commissioned the truth. [Hmm] Cos you go into, nobody in this borough, you go into the market, you won’t hear English speakers- spoken, you know errr this, this is…this makes things worse, this is really, really crass because you’re saying that only one in 7 people live in this borough, are ethnic origin. Well the trouble with that it is, that you know lines like that will bring, brings you into disrepute and if you can put that on the front page of your paper, then nobody is going to believe anything you say. Cos they know that’s not, that’s true, not true [Hmmm] so and he said, he said you know what and I thought Oh he’s gonna tell me, there’s, there’s obviously a reason for this. His says my names Charles, not Charlie and he xxxx, turned round walked back up the steps, walked back in the Town Hall. I won’t tell ya what I thought but I just stood there and I thought well…I think you’ve just explained everything.

Yeah.

And he’s the leader. He was the leader of the Council.

Crikey.

It, it makes…it makes the race issue, a problem, it makes it an issue, doesn’t it? [Hmm] And we’re all on a, we’re all on a ball floating about in infinity [Laughs] nobody can get off. [Interviewer laughs] You know what I mean?

Yeah [Laughs] It’s true.

And, and ya think, well we’re all human beings, you know, errrr….I just, I just don’t get it, I really, really don’t get it and, and um Margaret Hodge, errrr well she was blamed for the BNP being voted in, you know when she said errr about the immigration, or whatever……..and I’m sorry don’t know how many people have moved out of this borough but it’s err….but it’s probably hundreds and thousands of white English people, British people no doubt. Are they really saying that they’ve all moved out of this borough……because they’re all racist? [Hmm] You know…..that’s what they’re logically saying? But actually I, I actually maintain..the reason why they’ve all gone..is because it’s not a nice place to live anymore. [Hmm] That’s the real problem, you know would you live, would you live in borough, in Barking….nowadays? Which was in 87 when I moved into this place, was still an aspirational borough. Or would ya like to live, ya know out in the, a nice [Hmm] errr ya know, out in the whiles of Essex or Warwickshire or…Chester, or wherever it is they’ve moved to… Surrey and East Sussex.

And I spose partially the point would be that…a lot of the people that’s here I’ve interviewed that are in their eighties and nineties, [Interviewee says Yep] back in when they were children it was still quite rural around here.

Absolutely.

Umm…so maybe they’re kind of moving out to sort of recapture that sort of rural rather than…

Yes. Yes. They’re not racists. I mean they, they, they, I mean certain, obviously a lot errrr proportion of them [Hmmm] would be, because of the, of the generation thing. But err….I, I escorted an old lady back home, err down to Hurst, down Hurstbourne Gardens here and she, I was chatting away and she moved here when they were first built and she’s lived here ever since. And she remembers, fr from the pub here, the errr Fly house or whatever they call it these days…

It’s the Royal Oak these days.

Through that, that side was all fields [Yeah] ya know…errr

It was originally called The Fly house cos it used to be a pig farm there wasn’t there? That’s what I’ve heard.

Ya know, I’ve got no idea

No? Ok.

Quite possibly. Yeah, yeah.

That’s just what I’ve heard, so I’d thought ya know…

Yes, yes. I’ve got a picture out there….mmm you must have seen the Bygone Barking book, have you? The Bygone Barking Book?

Yes, yes, yes.

And they’ve got a flock of sheep out, out here along Bridge Road, ya know.

Well what…

I mean this house is pictured in it, [Hmm] in in the Bygone actually, yeah.

What what’s crazy is when you look at places like Upney Lane…

Yes

And things and it and it was actually a lane, wasn’t it? [Laughs]

You understand why it’s called Upney lane…

Yes [Laughs]

Yes, yeah, absolutely. [Interviewer laughs] Yeah my Great Grandfather had an allotment on my old Grammar school field because you know we had the largest fishing fleet in the country.

Hmm. Yes.

And that was basically, xxxx lice fields and yer know on the Grammar school, on the Grammar school grounds. And eerr …of course William the Conqueror…had was in Barking Abbey while he had the Tower of London built or, or extended or whatever. It was a seat in Government…I mean it’s, it’s always been up until…well what twenty, fifteen years ago, it’s always been aspirational borough to go to, but for some reason…whatever happened and what for, what for ever reason, suddenly it just….[Hmm] it’s just plummeted. Bloody shame really.

It’s a real shame.

Uh, yeah, never mind. Such is life. [Interviewer laughs] You know there’s nothing I can do. I, I protest now and again, about different things but just only to make me feel better, not saying I’m right. I’m just letting em know how I feel ya know.

Everyone’s entitled to their opinion…

That’s right.

You should be able to express it. Shouldn’t you?

Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

If it’s ok, it’s just, it’s just there’s one more thing that I’d liked to ask you? Umm cos I know, you know you’ve been absolutely amazing today, the amount of information you’ve come out…

Sorry.

No no please. Mmm but I was just wondering if you could sort of describe a typical working day for me, when you were, when you were working over in the park, if that’s possible? Even if there is such a thing as a typical working day.

Yes well, for when I first opened up we used to open up seven days a week, at quarter to ten and in the early days I had six lads for us. One was employed err just to keep the rain board, the rain board straight on a Sunday. Errm…and err…this, this is say from 1982 onwards. Errr..errr…errrm then I the train and the boats. Errm we’d arrive at quarter to ten, we’d open up at quarter to ten because that would give me a chance to come off duty at nine o’clock at the fire station and get there, so…errrm and then errm…errrr we’d errr, first of all we’d bring the boats, the motor boats over, with our staff boat and we had err….errr…good grief three groups of five….no we didn’t we had sixteen boats in all we had [Laughs] two groups of five and a group of six. Errm…and they would go onto the side of the ticket office which was on the.. err South Park drive side of the Ticket Office. Errm and errm while one of the lads or two of the lads were taking the sheets off of the motor boats and the sheets weren’t there to keep them dry. Err although that was a handy side effect, there the sheets were there to keep the ducks mess off of the, [Right] the birds mess off the boats cos err…yer know you want to hire them out and and because cos in the early days there were people waiting for you to open. Cos they didn’t, cos they knew by mid afternoon, late mid afternoon they’d have to be queuing for a long time. Errm…and while that was going on the err rowing boats were used to keep fourteen rowing boats on the water, two sets of seven. And the other fifteen were kept in the sheds on wheels, just so that were readily readily accessible if we need to increase the fleet as and when…..errrm…they were required and in normally by about, in half an hour all the boats, the err motor boats had been [noise] unsheeted, pumped. Well err they used to do it in a certain order, we used to unsheet them, then we used to fill them up with petrol, the two stroke and then we would pump the out, just in case if there was any spillage into the bills then err it got pumped out with the errr bilges. [Interviewer coughs] The rowing boats if necessary used to get, if it had rained overnight of course they’re open the boats, so that had to be tipped of water, umm and any ducks mess wiped off the seats and/or dry the seats. And put errm oars in the rowing boats. At that time it was errm open the gates…first customers in and a cuppa tea. [Interviewer laughs] Errm I put large tanks on, when I took them over, all the motor boats had small tanks on, so that meant err…at least one if not two petrol feels during the day, ya know which was never a good idea I felt…and that that’s how the council had run em. So I purchased err larger tanks, which then enabled us then to fill all the boats up before we opened…put the …that’s a fire brigade thing again. End of problem ya know, I mean why, why anybody would…consider it was a good idea. I mean cos there were tanks, large tanks available all the time but for some reason the council err put small tanks on them. Errm…and that was it really, I mean there was normally at least one of the motor boats in the workshop under some form of repair because it’s ya know….a lot of damage, ninety per cent of the damage I suspect was done inadvertently because you’re dealing with people that are not…ya know not the brightest of people.

Hmm and just general wear and tear I should imagine would’ve….

Well, well yes, to be fair to them, when twenty, when they had twenty nine on the water and sixteen motor boats on the water and a staff boat floating about…errm sometimes it was almost inevitable that…we had a consultant once who came up with the most ridiculous..errm..in the days of a Jimmy xxxx xxxx, he, he he’d come up with the top island by Ilford being linked as a picnic area. And I was at this pub xxxx to the park xxxx xxxx and I stood up and he said that the lake was rainfed and all the rest of it….I said look, I’m…my names Mr Everitt, I run the boating concession in the park….I said errm..we, we use the islands as traffic islands, ya know, errrm we spend all our time keeping…families in motor boats all going the same way, so that we don’t have head on collisions. So everybody has to stay on the left and he said errr motor boats? I said you don’t know, do ya?

[Interviewer laughs] So he didn’t even have a clue?

He didn’t. He did a sixty five thousand pound report and he didn’t have a clue that we run them. And he’d said about this, and I said the other thing, I said rainfed err lake, I said so you mean for the last twenty years I’ve been wasting my time managing the level? And he just looked at me, sort of red face and I just went to him, okay I presented him with my card and I said look I’m leaving because you know….I’ll say something I’ll regret [Laughs] Err you and I have to talk, ya know give me a ring. I mean, Cos I mean I’d give all the advice, he he would need, free and and readily.

The benefit of your expertise really cos you know better than….

That’s right. Why wouldn’t anybody ask, I mean in my life experiences, if I don’t know somethin, if I go and ask somebody who does, they never ever give me ba- duff duff information. [Hmm] They always give me… ya know how did I do this? Well ya know, well ya know doing some metal work or something….ya know you’ll go down to a metal man and say look I’ve gotta do this job, how do I do it? And they’ll errr….

Yeah.

I think that sometimes, that they’re quite pleased that somebody’s asked them. Ya know? [Interviewer laughs] And errr….but he never did phone. And the council paid him, errr repu- reputedly paid him sixty five thousand pounds for that report….didn’t even know we had motor boats on them and thought the lake was f-fed by rain. Extraordinary isn’t?

Yeah, absolutely. Well even I know it’s not fed by rain and I don’t, I don’t even live here! [Laughs]

[Laughs] We used to, we used to errm, errm shut down, originally the motor, the rowing boats were for an hour and the motor boats were for half an hour, so we used to s-stop selling the last row boat ticket at half past four Monday to Saturday …and the last…errr the last motorboat tickets as at five o’clock. And, and to be fair most people, most normal people, Monday to Saturday…errrm…weren’t in a park at five o’clock at night [hmm] there were always exceptions on xxxx but as a general rule, ya know, if you relented to serve somebody after that you was, you was asking for trouble. Errm…and then on the Sunday we went on a hour later but very often on a Sunday or a bank holiday, err in the early days we would be going, I just say to the boys do you want overtime? And they would all say yes. And if I got it wrong, they still got their hour’s overtime [Hmm] Err and if I got it right they just worked until…I mean very often, not very often, that’s errr, sorry I-I’ve used that expression. But sometimes….errr seven or eight o’clock at night we would bring the queue in and say right you’ve been waiting so long, we will guarantee you a boat. But we then used to turn people away that were coming up ya know, cos we’d lock the gate. And I’d say no it’s gonna be dark before ya know, we got serve all these people, we’re not, we’re not. Errm, that, that wasn;t very often but it did happen. Errr…especially if we’d had err, ya know of course when the sun really shone, it really got hot that’s the day when everything broke down.

Yes, of course. That’s called Sod’s Law I think, isn’t it? [Laughs]

Yeah, instead of working with sixteen boats…ya know you’d end up with running with…ten or twelve cos they were err, the youngest engine that was there when I arrived was eighteen years old. [Wow] And I was there I-I don’t know what year I left was, ya know, couple of years ago…and started in err the boats in 82, so…what twenty five years, summit like that? So…forty three years old one of them, the youngest engine…I mean they’re like trigger’s broom ya know, they’ve got so many handles and so many heads but errm, they just needed a lot of care and attention all the time, ya know. Yeah. But they were just a bygone age and I suspect…I got very angry and very upset the way I was treated at the end. Errm, I found it ya know a more obnoxious way of being treated after what I’ve done for the borough, I can’t imagine errrm…. But I think I was being tarred with a, with a brush that errr ya know they maybe or ya know, ya know I’m talking about I mean, we don’t like each other, that’s fair enough. [Hmm] But errm..errm….ya know if they’d’ve come up there with a bit of straight back an, man to man and said Look, ya know you’re, you’re not gonna survive this ya know, we’re, we’re because….well that would have been I would have felt differently rather in the way that it was done. [Hmm] I mean it was just….I won’t, I won’t go into what I would call skulduggery that was going on but it was not err…not a pleasant way to end it up what I thought was an association that benefitted them more than it benefitted me. I mean I made no big, no big thing of being a private enterprise. The council got all the kudos because, as far as everybody was concerned, the boating facilities, the little train, the punting course, the paddling pools all being run by the council and they were getting all the credit.

Yeah.

Ya know, I mean I was quite happy with that, that arrangement that was fair enough. They were errr ya know for a long, long time, they were brilliant landlords. They, all the old boys on the committee…who knew what all their problems were…not had all their problems gone away but it wasn’t costing them tens of thousands pounds and they still had, probably one of the premier parks in, in London. And they couldn’t, ya know I suppose they couldn’t believe their luck and I was, I know I was living the boyhood dream, can you imagine?

[Laughs] Get to play with boats and trains all day, it’s fantastic.

Yes, quite. Yeah. Barking park boats and trains, corr blimey. I couldn’t, I couldn’t think of anything better, I mean other people couldn’t think of anything worse but…I thoroughly enjoyed it. Errm….and errr but things ya know, went down hill towards the end, which is a shame because all the, all that knowledge of what it was like, errm was all lost. And the news boy come into the council and all….err…I don’t know what was going through their mind, I don’t know whether they thought I was carrying tens of thousands of pounds. [Hmm] Like, like I thought the idiots were thinking….errr…maybe the council officers were thinking, I was walking out of there with wheel barrows full of money. But only, someone only had to come and sit and count boats and they, they knew what, they would know what I was doing, what, what my turnover was. Yes umm and on the good days, in the early days it was very, very good, the turnover.

Yes.

It, of course employing people and getting insurance and stuff like that was, ya know all the normal overheads that run the business were…were little bit extra

But obviously you still had your…fireman

[Interview interrupts] Fire brigade

Position then as well didn’t you? So…

And..ya know…I’ve always been comfortable [Hmm] I was I…probably the truth is I would never have had to work in my life anyway. But then of course it does take the edge off, because…errm…a) I, I I only did it when I really, really enjoyed doing it, which was great and err if it all went wrong, ya know, it wasn’t like I was gonna lose my house. [Hmm] Or it wasn’t as if I was ya know, there was any sort of real financial repercussions. [Clock chimes] I could take a risk and in every case it worked.

Yeah.

But then I could afford to take the risk, in the first place, so it wasn’t really much of a game, you know what I mean?

Yes, of course.

So errm…err just, some days I’d think ya know, when I’d dealt with some particular nasty, I mean I had a, I had a…what do they call em…errrm..err..a group when they demand err money with menaces, errm err not a defence errm…

Like a protection racket or something?

Thank you. A protection racket move in on me and they were particularly nasty, they looked nasty people and by all accounts I called the local police, they were nasty but….and I went up to the council security offices, a bloke called Lyons….and I actually went into his office, in a civic centre and said like this has happened to me and they’re demanding this/that and you know what he said?

What did he say?

Pay em and they’ll go away…..I said I’m sorry, I’m sorry I said, you got absolutely two chances of that and one of thems none. [Hmm] and err…

That’s terrible advice.

And they came back and err I said alright, ok lads yer know, yeah…I don’ t care what ya, it ain’t gonna happen, there is nothing, absolutely nothing you can do…that will make this happen ya know and, and I just fronted it out…and err they never came back. So they just went onto easier pickings. [Hmm] Yes ya know Umm…But I thought..But I

It’s probably how they did it wasn’t it? Through intimidation, if you were intimidated then obviously you would pay and otherwise…

Oh, oh I was scared witless to be honest with ya.

But you obviously put up a good front for them.

That’s right yeah, just, just fronted it out. I said there’s absolutely nothing you can do lads, I’m not gonna go to the police, errr ya know I’m, I’m not gonna make anything of it. The choice is yours, from this moment on nothings happened. From this moment on if you want it to happen, it’ll happen. [Hmm] Ya know, ya know done the old Dirty Harry, ya know? Make, make your mind up job. [Interviewer laughs] And err..they said they’d be back but they never, they never came back, so they were just chancing. But were, I- I I thought I was gonna get support from the council, ya know to protect their amenity, yet, yet the the actual err advice was pay em and they’ll go away. I thought you’ve got no chance..err…that’s the one thing that ain’t gonna happen. A) Ya know I ain’t gonna pay em but b) if they did they wouldn’t go away, ya know cos they’ve got themselves a sack up.

Exactly.

And on days like that, you think, ohhh I don’t need this, ya know but then of course there are other days when it’s just absolute sheer delight, ya know. Nice people, all saying thank you, oh we really enjoyed that, ya know, ya know…isn’t it cheap? Ya know, no arguing with anybody and you only get, you only need a few grateful errr comments during the day and your whole day is….ya know my wife sometimes said Why do we bother, ya know? Ya can’t imagine the lack of literacy…[Hmm] or, or…I’m not exaggerating you’ve probably come up against it yourself but I, I, I never, I’ve always said I’m not a rocket scientist but….my wife who had to deal with the general public and done it far better than I did. I was good with dealing with staff and keeping things going physically…engines and repairs. Couldn’t deal with the public very well. But the level of literacy and IQ was…like they, they couldn’t tell the time [Hmmm] and we had ways of indicating on a time board..number five can’t read, number three can’t tell the time [Interviewer laughs] Errr…number nine been problems before. Ya know we had all little marks and scores, so that everybody working on the quayside, knew what we were dealing with, so that everything was done by sign or…err absolutely true and it, maybe it happened half a dozen times…you’d, you’d put em in the boat and the standard procedure is you, you just hold on the boat and say Ok the big clock, way in front [Hmm] Ok mate, you’re due back half past three…errr well what time is it now? Hold the boat [Laughs] [Interviewer laughs] You ain’t going nowhere…right Ok look you’ve err just, err you’ve hired yer boat for half an hour, as you can see it’s three o’clock now, so….but you’ll give us a call won’t you? Fair enough, right ok mate no problem. Then yer know, they can’t tell the time. [Hmm] Yer know. Umm and my wife would know whether they could read or not, so she would let us know, ya know…errm a bell sign we had and that means yer know the people that are coming to now, can’t read.

Right.

Cos yer know, yer can tell all the signs, yer know? Well we’ve seen what it is on the board but how much is it? Yer know and yer think, err right so number seven can’t read right but then you say and then, then they, then you..so you go through the whole gambit, ok right yer it’s three o’clock now, you’re due back half past three, stay on the left, yer know cos you show em, stay on the left and errr…keep the boats apart. And you’d look and yer think oh, it’s gonna be the one and they’d say, absolutely on my son’s life, if I have to stay on the left, how do I get back?....Yeah. So very often I’d be sitting xxxx xxxx, bloody young lads would stand up and they’d say right, you stay on the left and then you stay on the left and then you stay on the left [Interviewer laughs] and you’re back here, yer know? [Siren in background] [Interviewer laughs]Errr we got err....we used to get errr does this steer it? Yer know [Interviewer laughs] what, what did they think? Did they think it was on rails, or something? Yer know? Does it steer it...ohhh where have the swans gone? We got once. And the young lad was a really funny buggar, he went, he ended up as em, he is em in charge of communications on the Navy destroyer now, so, he went errrrrrrrrr noise and I can’t get in touch with him now [Interviewer laughs] Ya know, I mean and and sometimes you just have to…once and I’ll tell you about, I, I as I say I’m not very good at dealing with general public and it that, in that situation and errr my wife had gone to the toilet and I was looking after the kiosk and a bloke comes up and says, errr my wife couldn’t see what I was on about but she says she gets that all day- boat…oh I said good afternoon sir [laughs], would you like a, a motor boat or a rowing boat? Does it look as though I can effing row? [Interviewer laughs] But I thought, don’t tell him, don’t tell him, don’t tell him, right a motor boat sir, ok that’s errr that’ll be ten pounds and you have three pounds, to come back xxxx by a deposit and err he’s got a little sprog in tow and you give him his deposit token. And he hasn’t listened to a word you’ve, thank you very much indeed sir, that gets you, you can tell he hasn’t listened to, that’ll get put it on a bit of string so they put it under their necks so they don’t lose it, [Interviewer laughs] err that gets you your deposit back. Anyway, he goes off and my wife comes back from the toilet, I said right, when chabin number four comes in you disappear, I’m gonna give him his three pound back because he’s just walked off, he’s just snatched this thing and walked off.

Yeah.

And she looks at me, as if to say yer know, you can’t educate the whole world [Interviewer laughs] and anyway number four came in and she went to the boat house and I sat in there. And we just looked at each other…and I thought oh, he’s finally, oh, he gave me the xxxx and he strolled in and I said yes Sir, and he said deposit, oh you’d like your deposit back yer know, no problem, I open the till and I got these three one pound coins, stuck between my first finger and my thumb, like a vice. And I’ve put it through the window and he’s tried to take em out of my, out of my hand, my fingers and we’re doing this- we’re pushing and pulling this three pound between us. [Interviewer laughs] He’s trying to take it and I’m not letting go. So we looking, we’re eyeballing each other and I said, in the end, I said Thank you and he said that’s alright mate. [Laughs] So I went, ok fair enough, you win.

That’s no help for you.[Laughs]

Why? Why would I even try? Yer know, yer know errrm and err I and err yer know that really, that really defines my ability to deal with the general, yer know general punters. [Interviewer laughs] I xxxx the scouts but I don’t deal with kids [Interviewer laughs] but I’m not that type. My idea…

Well, you tired your best though, didn’t you? [Laughs]

Pardon?

You tried your best with them. [Laughs]

Err…errr my idea of disciplining the kids way, isn’t allowed, yer see…

[Laughs] Right.

So err..yer know the, the these people who give up errr…at least one night a week, put a uniform on and put themselves in harms way of dealing with kids [Interviewer laughs] are just absolute heroes [Hmmm] I mean real heroes. I mean….fanat…I mean they’re absolute salt of the earth, I will, I xxxx in time, make sure everything works for em as I can, makes sure the err what they want they want to do with the kids is properly and well financed but…that’s about as far I, you know…do the boring things, xxxx and stuff. Yer know, I know my limitations and err yer know, I’ve already told you once [laughs], yer don’t get second chance, [makes sound] they won’t let me do that [laughs]. [Interviewer laughs] It works, but they won’t let me do it.

Yeah [Laughs]

It’s fair enough, yer know.

No matter how well it works. [Laughs]

I go round to groups and it looks like absolute total anarchy [Hmm] and pandemonium, I think. I’m thinking how could they bear this? Yer know. Err yer know.

It’s a very special type of person, isn’t it?

Isn’t it? Isn’t it?

Definitely

It’s just, it’s like water of a ducks back to them. Arrgh I can’t stand it, you know, you’ve told him once to go and st- yer know and do this and do that [Hmm] and he err…you’ve told him…make sure he does it! Yer know [Interviewer laughs] That’s my, that’s my attitude, yer know, discipline, service and all that [Hmm] and that’s the way I was brought up….yer know, you don’t get a second chance, but anyway….yeah that’s errr…It was through rotary…errm I was involved in an East Ham Scout group, twenty fifth Newham, which was quite errr a wealthy group, in those days. And I was in rotary and err I was introduced by the…errrm….President of Rotary in Barking then, to a chap called Alan Dennison. Who is, who was then the District Commissioner, he’s now the errm Chairman of the whole county. But errr he, he was introduced to me as this guy who was gonna start a Scout group, up the Gascoigne estate. I said you’re not, he said I am. Well I said you’re either be, ya know, you’ve either gotta be the biggest hero or the biggest idiot I’ve ever met [Interviewer laughs] in my life. But we need help, so I’ll come and help ya, if you’re serious I’ll come and help ya because I was just wanna see how this turns out, ya know. [Interviewer laughs] And errm..that’s what happened and….errrr…ohh…fff….just experiences that you can’t buy. I, they, the errr District, group scout leader was a retired…fireman by then and he’s from Derbyshire, he works for the council now. And errr he took them up to Derbyshire and obviously these kids on Gascoigne are…street wise and he said Look, I’ve, I’ve, he deals with kids, I got all the equipment for em, yer know, I’ve approached other groups and begged, borrowed, stole, rented, whatever….and errr he’s taken up xxxx yer not your pleasant weekend and umm but he’s got em of Gascoigne. And he’s said to the kids, Look errm, I’m only gonna tell you this once and err on Monday or Sunday when we go home, it was a long weekend, I’m going to be dry, well fed and warm. And errr you can be the same….or you can be wet and hungry and cold. [Interviewer laughs] It’s, it’s entirely up to you, yer know, I mean, I don’t give a monkeys, it’s only four days, you ain’t gonna die, yer know. [Hmm] and errr…anyway he showed em to put tents up, showed em what to..yer know, all the camp craft and that. And errm, by all accounts they had a bloody good weekend and they, fancy going to Derbyshire from Gascoigne, you know what I mean? Wonderful. So err a few months later, in the summer…they wanted to take this…a patrol from Gascoigne…to Gilwell Park, the home of Scouting. For the Greater London North East Camping competition. Can I get em some more, we still haven’t bought our own gear [Hmm] Can you get us some more gear? Yep ok, so I made all that happen, I- I made funds available for them to get there and get back and etc etc. And err I’d forgotten all about it and I was over the park one Sunday and the phone rang and I went to the office, it’s this chap called Doc, [Interviewer coughs] group Scout leader, and errr he said they’ve won. I said what d’you mean they won? And he said the Camp- oh, oh the Camp competition. Errr…yeah well what part have they won? He said, no they won the Camp competition, I said what pitching tents, or cooking? Or yer know...[sound of sirens] etc, he said no they won. And it was one of them stupid que- stupid conversations cos it wouldn’t, I couldn’t compute what [Hmm] yer know. He was saying it quite concisely, they won, but I couldn’t, they yer know I totally ruled out they’d won it

[Interviewer sneezes] Everything yeah.

He said, well listen, he said they’ve won, I said what?, he said yeah. He said they were up against all the cheque book groups of Corbets Tey and Upminster and Hornchurch and all the big groups from Redbridge and all the…he said this Camping competition has been going on going on for over twenty years [Hmmm] He said….and he said they walked in with a swagger, the Gascoigne swagger, yer know, no rucksacks, plastic bags yer know. Errr we only here for the beer, who wants a fight, yer know? And errr, he said not only did they win…they won with an all time record score.

Wow.

And he said err the err…we both got quite emotional and he said errm the assistant Chief Scout, errr they, they all stood to, he said suddenly he said [Interviewer coughs] the assistant Chief Scout, that, that they were all standing to attention, come along to present with them, with their certificates. He said, you should, these lads that walked in with a swagger…who’s only here for the beer and the fight….six foot tall, straight backs, shoulders back, somebody had said look we believe in you, you can…you really can, all yer need is, s- somebody to believe it. And err….errrm, I- I- I made no bones, he broke up, I sat in my office and I bawled me eyes out [Hmm] I thought….yer can’t buy this…

No.

Yer know.

That pride. Yeah.

Yeah. I thought there you are! [Interviewer coughs] Cos these kids, it’s not their fault.

Yeah

Yer know, they, they rebel sometimes cos it’s the only thing [Hmm] they feel they can do. But..yer know those, those, half a dozen kids, will take that memory thro- though from the rest of their lives.

Yeah.

Yer know, they might, they might not get their fifty pence from the parents to go to Scouts every Friday…and we make our own arrangements on that one…but, but they got the thirty four/thirty six inch television [yeah] and the whole, complete Sky package, [Hmm] which I wouldn’t dream of having [Interviewer laughs] errrm…and they’re down the pub and errr but don’t get back from Scouts late, yer know. Errm… and errr they have beaten the best and they done it with an all time record score and yer think [tuts]

It just goes to show, show a little faith in a child and…yer know.

Absolutely. And yer think well yer know, errm sort of that, just, just that one experience was worth all the…committee meetings, the yer, I’ve got, yer know I’ve got somebody coming round tonight [Interviewer laughs] at seven o’clock, it just errm….it just makes it .

Yes.

Errrm, and err…oh I’ve just realised the time, I’m awfully sorry…

[Laughs] Sorry, I will, I will probably will have to stop the tape in a second but errm….

Right, yeah, err One, one story I will tell yer, about the errm Rotary, well the Fire Brigade, my fire station, used to bring over…handicapped kids, just a few schools [Hmm] errr over to the park and we used the train and the boats and we used to bring the Fire Brigade, err bouncy castle round and just made a sort of fun day of it, it’s a free day. Err but it was a physical day…yer know we, we put a couple of kids in the motor boat, oh we can get another one and so another one got lobbed yer know [Interviewer laughs] and he got caught and got put in the boat and off they went. And err I was, we were taking the old folks in rotary to.. errr the Fish and Chip meal at Southend on buses and the President of the day Keith Glenn xxxx xxxx, I was telling him about this being done over the park, cos he was involved with the Fred Aldous holiday xxxx and kids and all that and he’s heard about it and he said but we could do that couldn’t we? I said no…no, [laughs] no…but anyway he talks us into doing it….and the first time we did it, it was always the second Wednesday in June [glass being put down] First day we, first time we did it, we… had errr six hundred kids.

Wow.

We had errr, we had the boats and the train….errr we had a clown, we had a steam train…we had a marquee up and yer know errr the police were there and the fire brigade were there, of course. And errm…errr Cribbs brought their horse and cart, funeral thing, yer know And it was absolutely, it was absolutely fantastic because what rotary did they brought money and organisational skills. They didn’t have the physical things but then yer know…errr…it was, it was so much better, it’s unbelievable. And errr I think the next year we had err the, the the xxxx towns were, well they were just totally sold on it, they’d had a, the best day, well one of the old boys, John Stainer/Sterner had been in rotary from the year do, he said that the Wednesday after, he said that was the best day I’ve ever spent in rotary, it was such a worthwhile and err now we have errm, we, we well last year we spent seven and a half thousand pounds…as a club, just giving a thousand handicapped, or special school [Hmm] children a, a free day out but of course we couldn’t do it over there anymore so we moved to Central Park, wasn’t ideal… errm maybe, well hopefully if it’s possible we’re gonna get back there but I doubt it now because…we have so many coaches and double deckers to bring in that amount, cos it’s not a thousand kids, it’s, s-sixteen hundred people with the…

Jeez.

Carers and all that…

Carers and….

And Special coaches

probably siblings as well I can imagine…

Special coaches and all the rest of it, I mean, though that so suddenly that big car park is gone, so I’m not sure we’ll ever be able to go back over there, which is a great shame.. Errr, ,errr so..yer know it might be summit else that’s died but…anyway so we did that from, I suppose that must have been about 1993, something like that, but err that’s whn keith wwas President but err we done that every year and err, it’s just errm got a chap called Dennis Bloomfield now, err there used, there used to be a house in Bloomfield, Bloomfield House [Hmm] but they’ve knocked it down now. But his family have been Barking for several generations....and he now errr, he’s the main organiser within the club....but we have the circus and face painters and a disco tent and a clowns and a road train and Punch and Judy and...errr...yer know etc, I mean if you, if you name it, he find it..oh we have err bouncy castles, bouncy slides....errr fairground rides...yer know trains and it, it you think, and if you can think of it, he manages to...get em there and somehow pay for it all.

That’s amazing.

Yeah, absolutely superb. Now that really, and that and the Scout day errrr....some admit it, some don’t but there’s a bound to be a point during that day, where all your problems just pale into insignificance, yer know, you go away and find a little....just go and have a, get it out of your system, yer know.

Go and have a little cry behind xxxx xxxx

Yeah, yeah, I used to go in the first shed every year, I mean something would happen cos I built errrm...I built over there errrm..I maintained a p- p- probably errr falsely but I didn’t know of any of any other one, I- I built in the boat house there, me and the guy who’s, who’s the manager of the council now...errrm we built, what we’ve maintained was the first errr roll on roll off....wheel chair boat.

Right.

And errr cos we had a chap who used to come over with his kid, errrm...errr had a motorcycle accident and lost the use of his legs and was permanently in, in a wheel chair and we used to..haul him into a motor boat and haul him out and all the rest of it, so we felt, we, we just yer know...what if? So we sat around, well one winter we built this...boat which, which, was, was all buoyancy and it had da rop down side wide enough to get a wheel chair on, with a drop rail ramp [Hmmm] and errr you didn’t steer it normally like that, what yer did you steered it, the steering wheel was at the side and if you wanted to go round to the right, you pushed the top of the steering wheel, it was on the left hand side, you pushed the top of the steering wheel forward and the boat turned left, the same as a wheel chair would do. [Mmm] And in front of there we put a big...raised gear labour, so yer know could go forwards or reverse with this hand and yer steer it left or right this hand. And err...we got it on the water and we yer know plan a, plan b, plan c, plan...we finally got it working exactly how we wanted it to...err ready for the next season and we never saw him. [Laughs]

What a shame.

But on the other hand, it was always used....errr it was used some of the time by some wheelchair users and it was err a God send when we had all these kids turn up, in these big heavy electric chairs that with little bones, that couldn’t be moved, we just had to wheel them onto the boat, yer know..it was incre- that was, that was a nice thing to do. There were plenty of other roll on, roll off wheel chair boats but not ones that the people who was in the wheelchair could use.

Yes.

Yer know they could be a roll on, roll off as passengers [Hmmm] but to roll em on and roll em off and then say alright away you go...can you imagine? Yeah they just...

You wouldn’t see light of dust would you? Or spray, water spray? [Laughs]

They just absolutely adored it, mmm....not easy as we first thought, so, we thought we knew all about boats and errr worked out what what plan a, but we must’ve got up to half way through the alphabet until we got it exactly...[Interviewer laughs] yer know, safe and working it how we wanted it to work..yer know and that was errm summit else good. So that’s it really...

Ok.

I mean....I mean with the, the I still run the little dingies and the little xxxx at the other end of the lake in the specially shallow...they were...but those only weekends and school...school holidays, in the afternoons. But everything died of death..errr greatly dead of death...errrrm....errr because errr the the less the park is used, the more the vandalism and that happened, the less the park was used, the less people were about to say Oi! Yer know

Yeah.

And errr...yeah it was getting, it was getting difficult towards the end...errrm but yer know it, I would have still been there, I would have still been doing it....errr but not these days, not now. Not under actually any circumstances now, I feel quite bitter about the way it was all handled, yer know. Errm....

Everyone talks about you with such fondness though.

Thank you. I’m glad about that.

Everyone that I’ve spoken to.

I did....I’ve done nothing really to....I’ve only ever errm yer know put myself out to....to be one of the good guys, you see, you know...

I can assure that really everyone appreciated your efforts with the boats and train.

Far too short a life, isn;t it? Far too short a life to errm....

We need another a hundred years or so really, don’t we, to get everything done?[Laughs]

Yeah. And my great grandfather as I explained was an extraordinarily wealthy man and he was err in an old people/folks home run by East Ham at Brentwood and as a teen- young teenager I rode my bike to see him, cos previously while my mother was ill with TB, I shared a bed with him. [Hmm] as errr....a little kid and errr and he was sitting in the corner, of this old folk’s home..errr...miserable as sin, errr a lot of money..errr, yer know if he wanted a packet of fags, he couldn’t go and buy them anyway [Hmm] yer know...and I thought well that’s, he’s spent all his life working and earning money....and he’s miserable and errr...that had a great, great effect, that really did have real strong effect on me. And I thought well.....I absolutely am not going to..be the richest man in that old b- folk’s home....but when errrr the nurse or whatever comes up to meand says Mr Everitt, what are you smiling about? I’m gonna say sit down because this gonna take a life time. [Interviewer laughs] Yer know....I’ve bought fire engines, we’ve, we’ve raised, we’ve gone around Europe, raising money...errrm with our fire engine.....oh we’ve just, oh I mean and the stories that we can tell, I mean the people we’ve met.

Yeah.

Yer know...errr

Plenty to keep, keep you amused for many more years, for sure.

Oh, well that’s right, you, so you can be a very wealthy but....does you in the end, it does you no good at all.

Hmm.

What you want is err memories to keep you warm while you sit down there and think....it’s absolutely, I’ve always said yes.

Yeah.

As long as it’s legal.....errrr and it doesn’t harm anybody else, yer know .....it’s not detrimental in that way, just say yes because the bad experiences are stories [Hmm] The good experiences are just good experiences but the ones, that you think ahhh.....there the ones you remember, aren’t they? And you get to know whether its good or bad until you’ve said yes. And err...I’ve, I’ve said to my son and I was like I’m sorry mate, yer know.....you might end up with our house or whether we lived in but my intention is not to....leave you any, any money [Interviewer laughs] Yer know my intention is to....have experiences [Hmm] I mean the, the just experience earning the money has been great [Hmmm] Errm but just say yes and just errr.....yer know because if my grand- grandmother couldn’t take it....my biggest hero is on my mother’s side. He was also in the fire brigade, he was Chief fire officer of Margate or Ramsgate, I think it was Margate. He owned and I’ve, we’ve still got the handwritten ledgers, so I, this is all of proveable [Hmmm] He owned a hotel in Margate.....or Ramsgate, I think it’s Margate, I always get the two mixed up.[Interviewer laughs] And errr...a hotel in Shaftsbury Avenue.

Wow.

In 1800 and something......mid 1800s....his Hackney Carriage bill was over six hundred punds, well in 1969, when I joined the fire brigade, my wage, my annual wage was six hundred pounds, so he was...very wealthy man. Absolutely lived the life, and what we can by reading into the stories into what he spent his money on....hmmm....made his own money....and blew the whole lot [Interviewer laughs] on wine, women and song.

Good for him. [Laughs]

Absolutely.

I want that life.

I really hope that one day, my, my grandfather was bit- on my mother’s side was always bitter...because he’d, he errm....he’d known of the fortune that had been errr....but it wasn’t given to him...this bloke had earnt it and then spent it, so where’s the big deal? Oh he should have left that to us, yer know blah blah.....and errrr I just hope that one day, if, if that, the ways things are.....that I, that I go and I’m able to shake his hand somewhere [Hmm] and say...fantastic [Interviewer laughs] tell me about it...yer know.

Fair play. [Laughs]

Absolutely, cos err an ordinary doesn’t...earn, earn two hotels ...[Hmm] and certainly doesn’t blow the whole lot. [Interviewer laughs] I don’t think he lived very, yer know he didn’t live to a ripe old age but by God he must have enjoyed it [Interviewer laughs] So anyway..that’s umm..

Well it’s fantastic, thank you so much for agreeing to see me today, I really appreciate it.

I’m sorry, I...that’s good grief..[Clock chimes]I told you I can go on....[Interviewer laughs]

I should have booked in a week for this really...

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Alec Everitt

Project: Barking Park

Date: 19^th December 2011

Language: English

Venue: interviewee’s home

Name of interviewer: Claire Days

Length of interview: 146.30mins

Transcribed by: Halfig Barry, Aisha Iftikhar, Kara Black

Archive Ref: 2011_esch_BaPa_16

Interview details

2012_esch_BaPa_17

Ok, so first of all if I could ask for your full name?

Right, it’s Victor Arthur Gibbard.

And when were you born?

Errm 20^th July 1941.

And where were you born?

Here.

And err were your parents from here as well?

Yeah, yeah.

So when did they get to, come to Barking?

Errm….that is a bit more difficult to answer errm this house was built by one of my Great- Grandparents…errm…and it’s a little bit vague the times around there but my mother came from London, some can you remember? Not Putney was it? Err…

Janet Gibbard: Lambeth?

Lambeth, yeah probably Lambeth area. We don’t…we know very, very little about that time.

Hmm.

Errm…my father I don’t know, I imagine his parents had been round cos they owned houses, down the road in those days, errm two or three different houses were involved with them. And err how long they’d been there or their history, we haven’t really been able to trace back, so we lose account of them back there. But errm I’ve been here seventy years…so I go back a little way. [laughs] And err I’ve one or two stories, not a great deal but these like these two photos that err, two or three altogether? How many have you got do you remember?

Errm I think it was two.

Just two photos?

Yeah.

Yeah, that probably was it then. Errm I know one of them was of the two sisters, standing together by the boat house and the other I think was just one of them in at the boat house.

Yeah.

The old original boat house, not the one that’s recently been pulled down but that was an old wooden one…and err I can remember that fairly clearly.

What the original?

Yeah, well I say original, I assume it is original but it was a wooden boat house, which I remember quite well, I also remember coming through with an aunt, the one that was in the photo, doing the err rowing.

Hmm.

Belonged to the rowing club. And err her husband, I don’t know where we’d been but we were coming back home, past the boat house and this end of the lake and it was err frozen…errm frozen well over and there was a lot people on there skating.

Oh wow.

With ice skates. I went on the ice but err…errm I went on the ice, as I say but I was all over the place, I didn’t have skates, just in me shoes and I don’t think I could keep on me feet very well [laughs].

So was that kind of a, that wasn’t a usual thing then, not..?

No apparently not, it was quite a regular thing.

Oh right.

When the lake was frozen over, you don’t see that now. Well I haven’t anyway.

No, I guess people would think it would be too dangerous now.

No, they used to have lights round the boat house then, coloured strings of coloured lights. I can’t remember how far up the lake they went, I think they went a little way but not very far and it was quite a nice scene.

Hmm.

Seeing all the people on the lake and these lights on.

So when was this, when was the ice skating?

Oh, well obviously it had to be winter time, errm….it couldn’t have been very long after the war, probably a year, two years or so after the war.

Hmm.

The end of the war. But err I can’t remember, I know I was quite young then but err…old enough to fortunately remember it.

Hmm.

And it was about that time that I remember the train being at the back of the lake. And people have asked the council in the past about this, cos for a while I was driving the errm train, where it is currently now. It belongs to a club now but the chap who owned the boat house, who’s a ex- fireman.

Hmm.

And err he had the train and I was driving it for him for a while.

Oh right.

And people was coming up to me, all sorts of different things and one of them being that they’d heard the train used to run at the back of the lake, just at, it’s only….six/eight foot wide this strip between the actual stream and the lake itself.

Oh right.

It used to run the whole length of the lake, it was a lovely ride.

So you remember, you actually rode the train then?

Yes cos we had relatives, the other side…of the park to us, errm and err we often, we used to walk, well say walk over there, we’d start walking and the train was running, we’d go and get on the train and have a train ride and if it’s still running when we came back again, we’d get a train ride back home [laughs]. But err that was a lovely experience that…but err it was moved after some years, to where the track currently is now, well that’s a different track now, different gauge but errm that was the old nine and half inch gauge railway and it was a lovely one. And that train errm, I did have a magazine but I don’t know what happened to it, I’m hoping one day I’ll still find it, err with a bit of a story about the triain.

Oh right.

Because it eventually went from Barking Park and….it supposed the story is that went up to erm…what’s the railway Jan?

JG: Bressingham.

Bressingham. And it was on the rose garden railway for some while and I believe it was sold from there on but I don’t know to who or where it went.

No. So errm what was the train like, like can you describe it?

Errm it was green [laughs], err it was a nine and a quarter inch gauge, I can’t tell you much more about it, the type of engine it was errm I don’t know, I’d have to find that magazine.

Yeah.

Errm to prove that or establish that. Err I know, I believe it changed colour when it to Bressingham and I think it was a red, orange or reddy colour then but over the park it, it was quite a few years it was there and we used to run up and down, errm the whole length of the railway, it had a little bridge cos there was like slu skate halfway down the lane, err I don’t know if you can see it now, it’s still there but it probably won’t see it because of all of the overgrowth there and errm, you used to have a little bridge over that and the train used to go straight on right up the far end.

Ah wow.

You used to get off, level roughly with the end of the lake, so that was the whole length of the lake, which is a fair run.

Yeah.

But errm when they changed it and moved up to where it is presently, errm cos it’s only probably half the length…now that it runs, which was a great shame.

So why did they move it?

I think the reason given at the time was..errm because of the availability of it, more people came in the park up by the lodge and that’s where it used to run from down to the lake and err more people used that route, whereas along the back of the lake, errm far less people used it I believe. But that was what we was led to believe at the time.

Hmm. So do you remember like the kind of year where it changed position or not?

Err vaguely yes, I mean at that time I never used to go to the park all that much and I knew it had moved but I didn’t see it for a while after it had moved.

Ok.

Because the steam train had gone by then and they had err Little Nan was the engine that’s been there ever since up and till quite recently, when the err, the boat house was taken down, the newer boat house, the brick built one.

Hmm.

Errm and err the fella that run the boat house, Alec he, I believe he’s retired.

Yeah my colleague interviewed Alec.

Yeah, uh huh.

And errm yeah he doesn’t run the boats or the train anymore.

No, no he’s gone. Nothing to do with any of it.

JG: That train was there where it is now, in the fifties.

Yes.

JG: In the fifties because I used to go on it, as a child.

So when were you..?

JG: So the train was where it was then, I never went on it over the back, so it was it was early fifties.

Yeah, well between the war and the early fifties…

JG: Yeah.

It was on the back lake. Err whether it was there during the war, probably not used but whether it was there then, I don’t know. I don’t know when it actually started up and this, this fella I was talking to when I was running the other train, Little Nan over the park, came up to me and he was asking me about it, did I know anything about the train, a steam train running at the back of the lake? And I said, ‘Yes’ [laughs], ‘I certainly do, I rode on it, quite a few times’ and he said, well he’d been to the council, to try and find out he was told that that is rubbish, because there’s nothing in print, nothing to say that the train ever run at the back of a lake. But I can assure everybody it did. I ran on it a few times. And as my wife just said, she went on it as a child as well.

Yeah there’s, you know there’s been a lot of people that have, that can confirm, that are saying the same thing as you, so you know it must have happened.

And during those days it was said to be the best park in the country because we had so many things at one point going. We had the train over the park, errm the boats, they had motor boats, errm the tennis courts, we had the indoor err sorry not indoor, outdoor swimming pool over there, they had a paddling pool, err the toilets, a cafeteria, so many things that were going on in that park and it, because of that it was the best one, supposedly in the country. And being here all me life [laughs], I’d like to think that was true. But sadly [laughs], they’ve virtually all gone, the boats have all gone now, the swimming pool’s gone, the tennis court’s gone, oh putting little golf course thing there, that’s gone, cafeteria’s gone. Errm..

Yeah it’s a shame.

Yeah.

So how do you remember errm like the boats and stuff, did you use to go on them a lot?

Err I wouldn’t say a lot, err cos money was hard in those days, just after the war but err occasionally used to go on them.

So was it quite expensive?

Errm…I don’t know, I was a bit too young to realise prices in those days but errm…I had been on there a few times. But err what the prices were then, I imagine it was expensive for the times, because just after the war everything was rationed and money was very short.

Hmm.

But err you know quite hard times. But err as I say, I remember the park well, for so many different things that used to go on. Few times I went swimming over the, the pool over there.

What was that like?

That is- a very nice pool, always seemed to be busy to me but…it was closed down for some reason and..it was a great shame.

Hmm.

But all the other parks that had them in, seems to have been the indoor or outdoor pools that was in them, they’ve been closed down.

I think they thought they were spread of polio?

Yeah, that was a thing and this we understood was why the paddling pool, the children’s paddling pool that used to be over there, was shut but cos polio has been gone a long, long time.

Hmm.

And never reopened sadly. I think they’re gonna have some sort of a wet area for children over there, in the future [sound of dogs barking], errm they’ve got plans to go ahead with this but err where it will be or what it will be like [laughs], remains to be seen.

Do you have any kind of good memories of the pool, like specific memories?

Err no, not specific memories, I remember going over err, I think I went over there once with the school. And err I’d been over there as well, with me friends, when we were young and err I can also remember the old nissen huts that used to be over the park…

What were they?

just after the war. Err they had gunning placements there, err during the war and errm they had this big arounded metal sheds, corregated iron sheds that were curved, errrm where they I suppose used to keep all the ammunition, probably where the people that used the guns fired them, they probably lived there.

Hmm.

So that they were to hand, you know when the err planes come over and started bombing us. But err, obviously it was before the end of the war but I remember them quite clearly [sound of door shutting] for a number of years after the way, they remained there and they were done up as housing units and people lived in them.

Oh right. So they were quite big then?

Err a fair size yeah and they were quite nice inside too but err I had a friend that lived over there…but err

So..

-so many different things that happened. And there’s another little story which you may or may not have heard, now this came, in fact the woman in the photo err Mrs. Frietag.

Hmm.

Well one of the women in the photos, err husband cos they used to leave across the road here, at number 35 for many years and her husband…was in his young days went over the park and there was a group or groups of people, re-enacting the invasion of the Vikings.

Is this in the park?

Yes in the park [laughs], errm I don’t know when it was.

JG: Something festival wasn’t?

But it was obviously before my time.

Hmm.

It was in his young days and he just happened to go over there and I believe they, they got boats from the boat house and err a team of them got on the boats, at one end or one side of the lake and they rode across and attacked another team [laughs] on the other side of the lake. And they was all dressed up in Viking clothes and err apparently that was a very good day.

So would that have been, I dunno the twenties? Maybe earlier than that?

Now, oh…er it obviously wouldn’t have been during the war, it have to be before the war.

Hmm.

But errm….very difficult to put a time on this.

Hmm yeah.

Err….19…late twenties? Early thirties?

Yeah.

No, it might be later than that, it might be later than that. I- I’m really not sure.

No that’s fine.

But I know he was, he was young cos he, he died a few years ago but err we can’t even confirm any of this or get any dates on it.

Hmm.

But err that was one story he told me and I also read in a magazine years ago, how Barking Canival, cos we used to have a fantastic carnival years ago.

Hmm.

A big fair in Barking Park, which was said to be one of the biggest in the country, errm much, much bigger than it is today, errm and the carnival procession use to go round nearly every street in Barking and that was quite a feat in itself and that used to be going on I believe from early in the morning till quite late at night, when they more or less had a sort of torch light…errm procession…

Oh wow.

After dark and went on till quite late, so all day long somewhere in Barking this procession was going round…

So what was the fair like, like what would be going on?

Errm…similar to what it is today, they used to have the dodgems and err the old ‘Screaming Lizzie’.

What was that?

Which was….oh dear errm it was like two big boats, side by side that used to swing backwards and forwards, steam driven and err they had like a netting all over the top, nobody could fall out [laughs]. And it used to be quite a hectic ride, I think it is the ride of the day, you know you dare to go on it, but err it was quite an experience that.

So did it use to go upside down?

No, no.

Oh ok. [laughs]

Not like that do today, they weren’t quite that hectic then but they used to go up a fair way.

Hmm.

And in those days it was quite frightening…but er good experience, good fun. And err ooh they had loads and loads of side shows all the way round and err, must have been hundreds of them, which you don’t get nowhere near as many nowadays and all the middle was filled up with all sorts of rides, children’s rides, little trains and all sorts of things.

So would that be annually or was it..?

Yes, yes, yes that was annually. Now it always used to be in…about September time, late-ish in the year and it was, as I say it was said to be one of the biggest fairs in the country, I can’t confirm that [laughs] but that was what was always said.

But that kind of that you used to be the highlight of everyone’s year, like everyone would go.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah because all the streets were, even up to fairly recently…sort of I don’t know ten, twenty years ago, we used to have a very good procession, every company virtually in Barking and around Barking used to put their vehicles in it and they used to dress them up and dress people up and they had very good floats on there, really excellent. But err something I’m afraid that’s largely died out now…lots of bands they used to have them in every year, quite a number of bands.

Hmm. What kind of bands?

Errm.. sort of territorial army I think, the air force cadets, errm anybody that they could get hold of. [Phone rings] There was no sort of rules as to who was in it and who wasn’t, but err you know anybody that wanted to join in, they just had to apply to the council and that was it.

Hmm.

And as I say, in the very early days it used to go virtually every turning in Barking and I don’t think too many people would remember that…I don’t remember too much about that.

No.

I got all that from my parents and my relatives that lived around here. [coughs] But err quite exciting times.

Hmm. [Hear JG talking on phone]

Cos errm was there like a bandstand at the park, do you remember that?

Yes, yes it was quite a nice bandstand and they used to have bands I imagine, probably a Salvation Army or any other band that wanted to play there.

Hmm.

Would be given the opportunity [Hear JG talking on phone]. But err often I, I won’t swear to you but I would think probably on a Sunday, you’d often get bands over there playing cos that’s long since been gone. But err there’s not much I don’t think of Barking Park left [laughs] now, apart from the park itself.

Hmm.

But err great shame.

Do you remember the steamboat?

Oh yes, yes I’d nearly forgotten that [laughs]. Err there was two steamboats in time, The Phoenix one and I was told, I would imagine it was the second one cos they weren’t real steamboats, I take it you know that.

Hmm. Errm they weren’t, they didn’t have…

They had the paddles on the back, well one of them did anyway, the big paddles on the back like a steamboat but it actually had either petrol or diesel engine in it.

Oh ok.

And they done sort of things, they had like err a tin or jar of nuts and bolts attached to it, to give the sort of chuffing noise of a steam engine. And err there was a small jet of water used to spurt into the chimney, to give steam off instead of just the exhaust of the petrol engine, whatever was in it, errm to make it look like a steam engine and as a child, I always believe it was. [laughs] It was that good.

Yeah.

It was really was a lovely boat. But I know it changed over, had another one and in the end, that was getting a bit…sorry for itself let’s say, a bit run down and it was bought by some group that errm…in one of the reservoirs somewhere, not too far away but err I can’t remember which one and they bought it up and it was taken away on a big lorry and it was propped up at the side of the reservoir, all ready for renovation and err some children went along that night and set fire to it and that was the end, I think it was the Phoenix II?

Oh.

So..

Oh what a shame.

We never had a big boat after that and that was a lovely boat, very, very popular. Very popular. Yes I remember that well.

So did you use to go on that a lot?

Yeah, yeah. Cos that, that was cheaper I think than going on probably most of the boats, but of course you wasn’t out for half an hour or an hour, you just had a trip round the, the lake and they used to on the boat up errm Ilford Lane end of Barking Park, just along the side there as you’re walking from the gates down, about halfway down. You get on the boat there and they take you round a couple of the islands and then back again, to the start [laughs]. That was a lovely ride, really was good, with the steam train and the boast, you know really was a lovely park.

What’s errm your earliest memory of the park?

Err…the earliest I would think will probably be the steam train, cos I was…I mean I was only four at the end of the war, errm but I can remember it, errm fairly soon after that. Cos as I day I had some relatives that came back from err abroad, the husband was err, an engineer for Shell and he used to go all round the world laying pipe lines, or he’s in charge of it all. And errm he used to go around the world, well he eventually they came back in England and settled down and errm they had a house over in Chadley Crescent, which is err just the other side of the park to us. And errm that’s the people we used to visit, quite often of a Saturday or Sunday, we’d go over the park or through the park, get on the train and visit these people and then when we come back errm, you know if the train was running, we’d get it coming back again.

Hmm.

But it was their children, they had two daughters and those daughters are still alive now and that the eldest of the two daughters, is the one that supplied the photo-

Oh ok.

Of her Mother and err one of the sisters, another sister, errm who used to live across the road to us, you know in the rowing club.

Hmm.

Before they got married I believe that was…

Errm do you remember any of kind of sports that were played at errm Barking?

Not really no, because I was never a sporty person, unfortunately, errm but I- I don’t remember them actually being in the rowing club.

Oh ok.

Or seeing that, errm but I’ve seen the photos and of the boat house, which I recognised, that, that must have been, I would think very soon after the war, very soon after it. Because I’ve got memories of that time, errm even to see an aircraft going over on the bombing raids.

Hmm.

And I can remember being in this room here with a mattress just down here, when the air raids went off.

Hmm.

And err…

So you weren’t evacuated then?

I was at one point, yes. I can’t remember the evacuation but I can remember being on this mattress, just on the floor and the air raids going off, errm I remember thinking to myself, ‘Oh am I going to hear the all clear or will we be hit?’

Hmm.

And that is…a very young child.

Hmm.

But err, err I can’t remember much more than that [laughs]. I remember going down to the air raid shelter, a few times but err cos we was all knocked unconscious.

Really?

In there, yeah. Cos err a doodle bug landed on a house over in Loxford Road, errm the very end one and the mother, I think the father was at work or whatever he was doing, errm the mother had popped out to one of the shops, that used to be round the little triangle then to get some cigarettes, she was only gone a few minutes but when she got back, there was no house, no children she had twins in a pram, they never found them.

Oh my God.

So errm why were you only evacuated for a short period?

Err, I suppose, I mean we weren’t directly bombed here, all though there was a lot of, whether they was stray bombs cos they weren’t that accurate in those days, errm there was quite a few places bombed out, errm that being one of them. That was one of the closest that we had. And err, I think it blew the doors in on our air raid shelter, which was a massive thing, it had eighteen inch thick, solid concrete walls.

Hmm.

And err it stood up to that bomb, which was probably only about…err couple of hundred yards away from it and err it was just directly over the back, just to the right slightly and errm…that isn’t so much, the actual bomb I don’t remember too much of err, we was all knocked unconscious for a few minutes and err but we all survived, we came to, ok.

Hmm.

Perhaps that’s why I’m a bit stupid now. [laughs] But err you know, all memories, when we were young life was so much different. Our fun, although we had the park over there, which we went in occasionally, errm we spent most of our time, well I did as a child, the boy next next door who was near enough the same age as me, my brother was a few years older, about six/seven years older, errm and the boy next door his brother, well one of his brothers, was six or seven years older than him. So the two older brothers were mates and the two of us were mates and we used to play down the stream, down the bottom, it’s a, it wasn’t a culvert then, it was a natural stream and I have been told by my parents, that they used to have a punt down there, the grandparents more than my parents.

Yeah.

But they used to have a punt, they used to go up and down the stream on it.

Wow.

But I never remember that.

No.

That was before my time. But as I say, we used to play along there for hours on end, in the stream catching tiddlers [laughs], errm wading up and down the stream, falling in it but of course at the, at the height, very high tides, the spring tides err it used to come up and flood our gardens.

Oh right.

And because we’ve had that almost up to the house and garden’s what? About a hundred and twenty odd feet long [laughs], it’s quite a distance.

Wow.

But err it was all fun, you know it wasn’t computers and that in those days, you had to make your fun.

Hmm.

And we did, I know the two older brothers they had a rope up in one of the trees and you used to swing across the river, errm till one day the, I think the rope had rotting through and he got half way across and the rope broke [laughs].

Oh.

Straight down into the stream.

So was the stream quite deep or…?

Not normally no, it was just a small stream but err on high tides yes it could be quite deep. I would think probably at least six foot deep on the very high tides.

Wow.

Cos as I say, it used to err flood our garden [laughs]. And the bottom of our garden was a good three foot..underwater.

Wow.

But err after the war we had ducks and errm chickens, all sorts of things.

Oh in your garden?

Mmm yeah, in their cages, until the fox got eventually got them.

Oh.

Or say fox, we come out one day and all the cages were broken open, the wire meshing was ripped off of it and all the rabbits were dead…strewn about the lawn. They weren’t eaten or anything, they were just dead.

God.

But we only put it down to a fox….you know, life was life then, more exciting than it is today, a lot more exciting.

Do you remember any other games that you used to play?

Sorry any other…?

Games.

Err….not really, not really it’s just what we made up at the time. Our garden slopes down and I know as youngsters we used to make up four wheeled carts, with steering, with front steering and the pathway down the garden was probably about two inches each side wider, than the car and we used to go belting down there on the slope and err used to make booby traps between the trees, that stuff used to fall on you and all sorts of things used to happen [laughs]. But err…all part of life, all great fun.

Hmm.

Really enjoyed our childhood then, but err as I say you only had to twitch your leg and you’d be off the path, hit the little, not a wall as such but quite high blocks along the side of the path, you’d hit them and of course you’d be upside down, under the car….in the bushes along the side [Both laugh]. But err, we survived it…

Errm where did you got to school?

Errm originally I went to Northbury School, just over the back here, probably know it.

Hmm.

And errm, when I went to Secondary school I went to Park Modern Secondary school, which I now believe is err Abbey, Barking Abbey School.

So what was school like? Did you enjoy school?

Yes, yes on the whole, I won’t say everyday but most of it, err used to play Rugby there, I never played football. Used to play rugby and being fairly big, erm I wasn’t the fastest one at it but I used to run and…plough through people [laughs]. But err unfortunately for them, but I used to come home with our…P.E kit torn to shrivens [laughs], to ribbons rather errm it’s just part, part of the fun again. I was never any good at rugby but you used to enjoy it, even in snow I know we played in the past. But that, that was cold. Then you’d come in and have to have a hot and a cold shower [both laugh], which you used to have in those days, hot shower first of all and then finishing up with a cold shower. Not quite sure why [laughs], but it used to liven you up.

What were the teachers like? Were they quite strict?

Errm..yes, they were fairly strict but as we got older towards the end, we used to play them up and err all sorts of tricks, I remember once err, one of the teachers I had, he was a maths teacher, he, he had some daffodils in a little empty jam pot, drop of water in it and a few daffodils and err being the ink monitor at the time, instead of putting water in them, I thought I’d try a drop of ink and by the time the teacher came in, they’d gone black [Both laugh]. Black daffodils, so whether I invented a new daffodil that day, I don’t know. But err…

So you were a bit of a troublemaker?

Yes [laughs], yes a lot of us were. Not that bad, you know we weren’t err kicking teachers and thing like that but yeah we did have our days, I don’t think much has changed over the years, I think err it’s much about the same today, kids will be kids.

Hmm.

But err you can only let them get away with a certain amount.

Yeah, I guess that was different you probably got punished. I guess, was the cane used in your school?

Err yes, yes, yes definitely, cane and slipper. Sort of anything went in those days [laughs], but err….I’ve had the cane one or two times while I was at school…the slipper a few more times. I remember one teacher the errm science master, he was only a little fella but if you got things wrong, he wasn’t very happy. And he used to chalk the answer on your behind, with a stick of chalk and he used to get his slipper and keep on till he beaten the chalk marks out. So [laughs], yeah they could be quite nasty but you look back and it’s quite amusing [laughs], quite funny. And he was only a little tiny fella, I was probably bigger than him then! But err, you know, you was wary of him [laughs].

Yeah.

You didn’t play him around too much.

No.

But err he was a nice fella. They used to put plays on at Park Modern School in those days and err in one of our lessons, he got all the spotlights out and err we had to service them and we thought that was great and when we’d done them, got them back to work err going again, you know still working or changed bulbs, whatever was necessary and he said, ‘Right, you’ve done that ok.’ He said, ‘Would any of you like to….’, I think they had a dance on at the time…errm and they said, ‘Would you like to come along and operate the spotlights?’

Oh wow.

And of course half the class was…up and ready to go [laughs]. And we had to take the spotlights up, install them, plug them in, test them and we had a very, very rough script of where you know, the lights had to be, when and where. Err…not that we kept to it that well [laughs]. But we did have a go and it was good fun, it was good fun.

Errm what other sports did you play at school do you remember?

Errm…sports nothing really other than that. I was no good at sports. But err, with rugby it was, I was never any good at it but I was just one of the bigger boys in the class. So of course the smaller ones, used to keep clear, so if you got the ball you used to run with it and err everybody would sort of avoid you [laughs], they’d run away instead of run towards you. Because you’d get bigger ones on the other side they wouldn’t, they’d come tackle you and bring you down and rip you shirt a bit [laughs] and then you’d retaliate and then bring them down later on and rip their shirt and used to come home in quite a state. I don’t know, who ever used to win but I don’t think we worries about winning, you just worried about having a bit of fun.

So did you play against other schools or was this just…?

I didn’t no, no but err as I say, I wasn’t good enough for that, I was just doing it for fun.

Hmm.

But err…I never did take any sport serious enough, to take part, one or two things I was in but I was never any good at them. But err…quickly I was pulled out of it.

JG: Vic, What was Barking Park actually there, put there?

Oh.

JG: Was it all farm land, Aunt Lil used to talk about?

I don’t know about the park, all this area was farm land, going back many years.

JG: Cos they used to go across to the errm..

To the farm house, when these houses were built.

JG: And also up to the pub up there, the Royal Oak.

The Royal Oak, yeah.

JG: Cos your grandfather shooting with them, didn’t he? Your grandfather.

With who?

Hmm.

JG: Cos your Aunt Lil used to say about it.

Yeah, yeah I vaguely remember that.

JG: About walking across the fields.

Walking across the fields, cos before these houses on the other side were built, there was fields from there on, used to go out quite a way and all part of a farm.

JG: yeah, but that’s what I’m wondering, if Barking Park was part of a farm?

I would imagine so because I believe that goes back to Victorian times.

Errm I’ve heard that, there was pig farming over there.

What in the park?

Yeah and that, cos I think the Royal Oak used to be called something else?

Err The Flyover?

Yeah and that was to do with pigs, I’m not sure how?

JG: The flies, all the flies, yeah cos they did rename a while back, The Fly House and people said, ‘No, we all know it as the Royal Oak’, but I’m sure it’s always been called The Royal Oak as well?

I don’t know, I remember The Fly House.

JG: Yeah.

But I was too young to go over the pubs then [laughs].

JG: But I can remember Aunt Lil and Uncle Len about all that being…

They, they used to come out with a lot of different stories, you know…but err things that happened over the years…

JG: Back when the lane was a lane.

Yeah, yeah, through I would imagine, all at the side of the farm. Because I think the farm went more or less from the stream along here, back that way…and across quite a way as well. So that was all before my time.

But Barking Park, I guess has always been like an important part of…….Barking.

Yeah, yeah it’s been there many, many years. As far as, well it must have been there long before Loxford Park, because if that was all farmland Loxford Park would have been part of the..farm.

I think it’s been there since the end of the nineteenth century. I think that’s when it became a park.

Hmm.

So like 1890s, I think…so yeah it’s pretty old.

Yeah.

JG: Just trying to figure out when this was all changed, cos you’ve got paperwork but it doesn’t really…

It certainly, it was certainly at the beginning of the 1900s because errm it was just after 1900 when this house was built, by well we’ve never been able to trace exactly who it is, but it’s one of my…Great- Grandparents…errm and he was apparently involved in the building of City Hall.

Oh wow.

JG: County Hall.

Oh County, sorry County Hall.

So where’s, where’s County…?

And the original railway bridge that used to be, go over to Northbury school, actually there used to be two one there and one at the end of this road, many years ago. Errm, the old original cast iron bridges and he was involved too with it, I think the design and building of that. But as I say we’ve never been able find out who it is, I’ve got quite a few Grandparents.

Oh right.

But errm we’ve not been able to trace them all. So err I don’t know.

So what do you mean you have loads of grandparents? Do you mean you’ve got like step- grandparents?

Err, yeah there was err remarriages went on and we’ve lost track of various grandparents-

JG: 1899 Abstract of land

Yeah, so that means the farm was being sold off before that, so it was in the late 1800s.

Yeah at the end of the Nineteenth century.

JG: Loxford Bridge and Ilford Lane…..it’s all about the land, that was around here in 18…

So what is that?

JG: 1899…it’s a will. [Shows the will]

Testament…

JG: Be careful..

Oh well there’s another name isn’t it? Jones.

JG: Yeah I, no that’s the people that owned the land.

Oh is it?

JG: 1906.

Cos that was the name of my mother’s side of the family, although she was an Arlett, errm she was also a Jones.

Oh ok.

So, we haven’t got to the bottom of all of that yet.

No.

We will do one day….if I live long enough.

That’s interesting though. It’ll be interesting to find out.

And that….Who was that?

JG: Oh that is who owned the lane here, Jones.

Piece of history there.

Oh wow. It’s beautiful isn’t it? [Looks at will]

So your family have been quite, you know I guess quite prominent in Ilford and in building it…

Yes, yes, yes. We did have some papers of a…..was it a will right? That was in the family? And err the paper that he signed of his apprenticeship, so that’s got to be earlier on in the 1800s and I don’t know where that is. Cos we did lose a lot of paper work, errm when we had this place on mortgage.

Oh ok.

And err it, all the mortgages apparently, all the paperwork was held by some party and all the unnecessary paperwork in there…

JG: They threw away.

Was thrown away-

Oh no.

Destroyed, which is a great shame. Because err that was all part of the history.

Errm so just going back to the park, errm used to bring, take your children over to the park or…?

Yes, yes we have done in the young days. Errm we used to take them over there fishing.

Oh right.

Get a fishing let, err fishing net from the local shop around there, I think it was Goods in those days wasn’t it? They had errm sweet shop and we used to get a fishing net in there, take an old jam jar round and they used to go fishing in the park for the tiddlers and there used to be loads at one time, none there now obviously. Errm cos they put a lot of chemicals in the…

Oh right.

In the lake or did do, to kill all the weeds off and err killed all the tiddlers off as well but errm, we was told by my grandson, he reckon he’s seen them, there was errm..

JG: White crabs.

Yeah white crabs and goldfish as well in there, I suppose that didn’t want them, put in the lake.

Oh no.

They’ve seen quite a few goldfish and I think koi carp over there.

Ohh.

But err I suppose since they’ve been using the chemicals in the lake, you know it’s obviously killed them all off.

Hmm. Yeah, cos I’ve heard that the lake’s quite dirty now.

Hmm.

Yeah. So do you not go over the park anymore?

Err…my Grandson does. I..very rare I go over there now, errm…I mean the train I used to drive has gone now.

JG: And he drives the one that’s over there now.

Err Daniel does, our grandson.

Oh right.

Errm, yeah it belongs to a club now and err they changed the gauge from nine and a half to seven and a quarter and err they’re running little diesel locomotives, taking passenger rides and they hope to be running steam before too much longer.

Oh wow.

Which should be an attraction to people but err…

So how did you get involved in driving the train?

Err…I don’t know, how did I? [laughs] it goes back to..

JG: We’ve got a steam train and we used to do charity events.

Yes.

JG: And we used to do errm…Alec asked to do the disabled children, Kids Out, it used to be called, for the was it the Rotary Club?

Err…I don’t know, how did I? [laughs] it goes back to..

JG: We’ve got a steam train and we used to do charity events.

Yes.

JG: And we used to do errm…Alec asked to do the disabled children, Kids Out, it used to be called, for the.. was it the Rotary Club?

Yeah…once a year.

JG: And errm we used to take our xxxx.

They used to invite errm, all disabled children, schools and that from, well a very big area originally and errm it was more, fairly local at the end but errm, it used to do it from I think pretty well the Home Counties. If they could beg, borrow or steal a school bus or any sort of…

JG: Get the kids there.

Passenger carrying vehicle, they were invited. And they use to come all over the place, used to have parties of deaf, parties of blind children, errm all sorts, yeah autistic, errm and we used to run the seven and a quarter gauge steam engine, which we’d been into for years, err and we used to do a lot of these shoes. And we used to do this one every year for children and errm I remember once we, we was, we had a party of children and there was one child on there, err I think it was a little girl wasn’t it? Who had errm…

JG: Yeah, who had never spoken.

No, no not that one. She had drips on her..

JG: Oh yeah.

and she was having to be drip fed fairly regularly.

JG: Oxygen.

She had two helpers with her and they lifted her onto the train, one was holding the drip feeds, the other one was holding the child and we took her for a ride on the train.

Hmm.

Which was what? Probably only about a hundred and fifty foot, errrm but they still loved it. They didn’t get the opportunity I suppose, of getting out as much as a normal person would.

Hmm.

And they used to love it. There was one child that err, had never spoken…err I’m not sure what his affliction was but he hadn’t spoken and…the people were quite overjoyed, because when he come back or got back, errm to his area he was saying ‘Choo choo, choo choo’ and making a train noise and they said it’s the first time…in fact we’ve still got a letter somewhere about that….that’s not it is it?

JG: No!

Oh, right.

So errm when were they, when did they stop happening..?

Err fairly recently, it still goes on.

Oh ok.

It still happens but not in Barking Park, apparently it’s moved to another park now, I think in Dagenham somewhere and that still goes on. Errm…

Oh I think it might be Central Park…

It could well be. It could well be. I know it’s somewhere else in, in Dagenham and it’s run by the Rotary Club. They sort of collect all year through to pay for it and they get people, like we used to have R.White’s, I don’t know where they are now but they used to be in Barking, years ago R.Whites.

Yeah.

And they used to go down there and they used to come back with a van load of drinks and that, which they gave to the kids.

Oh wow.

And err they had bits of food and err they used to have a lovely day over the park. We used to have the normal train, the petrol train over there and errm we used to run our little train, steam train and err they used to sit on there and have rides. Err, they used to have errm, bouncy castles all sorts of things. They used to have the boats open, the motor boats and err they had the golf course in the early days, didn’t it? Before that went. They used to open that on this fun day, anything they could get there, they would. They used to have a clown, Charlie the Clown, he was brilliant, he really was brilliant. And he used to go round all over the place, chasing the kids up and giving them little shows, really good day. But that as I say, that is recent times…

Hmm.

Not going back that far.

So when did you stop doing that?

Err…well must have been about fifteen years ago, about that time. We was doing a lot of fetes, errm we used to do…a few times on the err City Airport, they used to have err a day where they shut it off from aeroplanes.

Oh ok.

And they had an open day. And err we used to run a few times at that, so if anyone saw a little steam engine running there, that was us. [laughs] But errm I don’t know if they still do that? But err they used to have you know the Utterly Butterly plane?

Oh ok.

They used to have that come in and somebody standing on the wings, doing the show, they used to have a few other planes, errm some were just static and a lot of them were, were flying, doing looping the loop and the rest of it, quite interesting, quite a good day out.

Hmm.

But err no actual passenger train err planes, were running.

No.

So how did you get involved in steam trains and stuff?

Err…ooh that goes back a good few years. I was building a double O gauge lay up with my son, who’s forty now?

JG: Forty odd.

Well, just over forty, errm he was only young, still at school then and we was getting on quite well with this train layout, then suddenly one day he come home, he says ‘I’m fed up with this.’ So I said, ‘Oh yeah, why is that?’ He said, ‘Well there’s no real steam in it, there’s no real sound.’ He said, ‘I wanna get errm one of these small ones, that you can machine and make yourself.’ So I said, ‘Well in that case, you’d need to join a local club…to get the necessary advice and information.’ And he bought a little..err kit of parts, to be machined up and err..

JG: Joined a club.

Yeah, we joined a club.

JG: They took the mickey out of him.

[Laughs] That engine, it was a Rob Roy, which was a real engine in it’s time, but it was, it was never finished, errm we’ve still got the parts, it’s part, it’s half built. And errm, cos he decided then that that wasn’t big enough. Because the club we joined and at the Ilford and West Essex, they run err seven and a quarter gauge, they were fitting some track for errm smaller five inch and three and a half inch gauge trains, but never got very far with that. Errm there wasn’t that many people interested in it, so my son went more from that small gauge, which is why it was never finished off, errm to seven and a quarter. And since then we’ve built a seven and a quarter, my son bought…a batch of gear, which included a seven and a quarter inch gauge schools class engine, errm which was in pieces. It had come from a park up north somewhere and it had been stripped down to renovate it, nobody ever done anything about it , so they sold it off. There was a couple of other engines which weren’t running and errm some, a couple of coaches…one of them being a very good coach, which we still use today and errm we rebuilt this engine, needed a fair bit of work doing it, the schools class and err we’ve still got that.

Hmm.

And we’ve since got err, he’s got a half built class five engine, which we’ve yet to finish off. We’re building errm a C19, an American type engine between us, which has been hold of couple years. But err we’re hoping later on this year to get back on with it, but that engine went it’s done will be close on a tonne, in weight.

Wow.

So it’s quite a healthy engine [laughs]. But errm, you know it’s, we’ve always been a family that can’t sit around, we need to be doing something and err didn’t matter what it was, as long as we were doing something. So err…that’s how we, we got on with it.

So errm what did you, like what was your job?

Errm..

Or jobs?

Which one? [Both laugh]

I was a draughtsman for quite a number of years. Errm I ended up at BT on security…

Oh ok.

But of course the job I was in, it was a very good job, very…quite well paid job. Err until BT started selling everything off and closing down and I took early retirement and it was after that, that was in ’93, I don’t know, but after that, errm we was approached by Alec to, from the park, from the boat house to err run our train on their open day, their fun day.

Hmm.

For the handicapped children, which we enjoyed doing. Errm but that fell through in the end because my son, I was getting a bit old for it and we had about two tonnes of equipment at least, which we had to load up, get over the park, unload, fit together, especially all the track and all the fencing, it was really hard work. Errm and it used to take several hours to fit up and err two or three hours to take down afterwards.

Hmm.

After the running. Errm it got, it was getting too much for me at the time and my son was working a lot at weekends, errm cos one over the park was one of the few, that was during the week, errm and it couldn’t do it anymore and cos soon after that everything started going in the park.

Hmm.

Sadly. The swimming pool, the errm paddling pool, the golf course, tennis course, the cafeteria, the boats have gone now, the boat house had gone, errm the train that’s been running over there now for quite a few years, that’s gone.

JG: And it’s just the club one now.

And it’s just the club now, that put a new track and their running it. Because that all depends on their members, whether they’ve got enough members to run it properly.

Yeah.

Cos there’s not many that err qualified to drive steam engines…there’s not many that can drive the err diesel ones, or the petrol engines. But err that’s how me son’s, me grandson rather has got into that. And he sort if taking over where we’ve left off.

Hmm.

But he’s err one of the engines that me son bought, which was no good, he has stripped down, he has rebuilt it, me grandson this is and errm…this year, he’s finally got the engine running, it’s yet to be tested, steam tested errm but he’s actually got it running.

Wow.

And running quite well. So he’s over the moon at the moment [laughs] and we’ve got to make arrangements to get it steam tested, so he’s got his boiler certificate and then he’s insurance and he’ll be able to run.

Ooh.

So he’s quite excited over that [laughs].

And that’s the grandson that does the train now?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah he’s seventeen at the moment.

Wow, only seventeen and he’s done all that.

Yeah.

Amazing. Errm so you said you knew Alec from the park, did you know a lot of the staff that worked over there? Like at Barking Park?

Err…

JG: Only Alec.

I wasn’t involved in much of that but errm he, I don’t know, I don’t think he had anything to do with the swimming pool, although he would liked to have taken it over, well some friends of his would, they wanted to take it over but they weren’t allowed to. Errm…the golf course, the crazy golf course over there, he run that, err I think he run the tennis courts, didn’t he?

JG: I think so.

He run the tennis courts and a lot of the facilities. He run the train, the boats, motor boats and rowing boats, err they did have [cough] children’s boats, canoes and that at one time. And errm, most of the facilities, I think he was, to a degree in charge of the park.

JG: I think there was a lot of vandalism, wasn’t there?

Yeah and he used to keep an eye on it and errm he’d be in touch with the police or whoever, you know if it’s something beyond his control.

Hmm.

But err he done quite well over the park. But err he’s virtually at retirement age now.

Hmm.

And err and they decided to close the boats and they’re going to reopen them, but it’s gonna be totally different.

Yeah.

So it remains to be seen what they’re going to do.

JG: I don’t know, who’s going to reopen them.

No, I don’t think they’ve got anyone at the moment that wants to take it on.

Hmm.

Quite honestly. I don’t think the boat’s done too badly but the train at the end, errm was losing money. Err, the club that’s got it now, was talking about running further round the park but I think there’s going to be a lot of problems there, a lot of problems. And personally I can’t see it happening. It is possible, errm…

JG: No but when you’ve got…

Cos if you got to Chingford Park, isn’t it?....It is Chingford isn’t it?

JG: Yeah.

Yeah, errm there’s quite a big park there and they run their train round the park, it’s a club and they run round the park.

JG: Yeah, but isn’t their one with a high fence?

Errm possibly?

JG: Cos they don’t want it fenced over here.

I don’t know, I haven’t been over since they extended it…so I don’t really know how far they’ve got now. One of these days we’ll get over there and find out.

So why did you think everything started closing down at, over the park?

JG: Vandalism.

It’s, yeah there was a lot of vandalism, errm very difficult to control without having a lot of people over there, all the time, day and night, err which in today’s, the cost of everything today it wouldn’t just be practicable, if they had to do that I think the park would probably end up closing. But errm partly I think stupidity, because they wanted to have a pub over in the park, not that with people getting drunk, it just doesn’t bear thinking about and they go on about all the rubbish dropped in the park, just think how many bottles and beer cans you get and broken glassed you get over there.

Hmm.

But err, that was, that was dropped in the end but err there hasn’t been much else, they’ve got a lottery grant over there now and they’ve been talking about returning the park to how it used to be, in the Victorian days.

JG: Well then it’s a farm.

From the very early days, but they done away with all the boats that were there and they did have one, one of the old Victorian rowing boats over there, which must have been worth a few bob, I should think.

Yeah I think they’re restoring it.

Oh they are are..?

Yeah I think they are in the process of resorting it.

Oh right good. Cos I was afraid it had…erm been damaged or been thrown away.

So the boats that in, like in the picture of your aunt, you mean?

No, no I don’t, the pictures I remember there wasn’t any boats in it, they were standing up, there might have been one.

No, she was sat in a boat…

Oh, that’s one of the other photos…oh I didn’t have that one or see that one. Errm there was two of them standing up against the front.

JG: Auntie Rose is in the boat.

You’ve got them through have you?

JG: Hmm.

Cos you want copies don’t you?

Oh well just errm, you could just forward the email, errm and the pictures will be in there.

Yeah.

So that’ll be great if that’s ok?

Yeah we can do that.

JG: That’s Aunt Lil in the rowing boat?

Is it? Ah yes.

JG: Because the other photos that Pam’s got is the Bank of England. Because they used to row for the Bank of England.

Yeah this is the one I’ve seen.

JG: Yeah.

Yeah, they’re so good. Amazing. Just like the outfits they’re wearing, they’re just so, they’ve very of the time.

That ages them, doesn’t it?

Hmm.

But err she only died a few years ago.

Oh ok.

Not very long at all.

JG: Ninety- five.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah. He was a, few years younger, her husband.

JG: He died three years ago.

He died, just a little while after her and he was ninety- five when he died. But they used to live across the road here, thirty- five and errm they moved, now it must be…thirty odd years ago, he retired from the Ambulance service and they moved down to err Hadleigh.

JG: Hadleigh.

Had a bungalow down there and err they’re fun down there, till I suppose age caught up with them and they had problems, heart problems and one thing or another and err she died first of all and about three years later, he died. I think, sad to say I think he pretty well gave up living.

Hmm.

He was on his own, he had helpers going in, well three/four times a day, errm but it’s still a boring life.

Hmm.

Wherever they left him, he would still be in that position when they come back in next time, cos he couldn’t move, couldn’t get up, if he laid him on his side, when they put him in bed, he’d be on that same side in the morning, when they’d come into him [JG coughs]. So it must have been a pretty awful life, but errm it’s sad really but that is life.

JG: They used to tell us the tales of like…..

He was that told us the story of Vikings….

Hmm.

In the park. Never heard from anyone else.

No.

So I can’t prove that it’s true but…you’ve never heard anything like that?

No, I’ve not heard of it but that doesn’t mean that it’s not true [laughs], does it?

No, you never know. There’s not too many people around now that...remember those days.

Hmm.

Especially going back that far, that’d be…perhaps nobody now around that would remember Vikings in the park. But he just came up with it on one occasion and…we were quite fascinated by it.

Hmm.

But err a few years ago, he could have told you the story himself.

Hmm…that’s sad. Do you remember any other kind of big events that you were actually there to witness? Or that used to come to the park?

Err no I can’t, I can’t think of anything, every now and again something happens and it brings back a memory, but my memory’s going now [laughs] anyway, that’s why I’m glad that you’ve come round today, cos come round err next week and I probably won’t remember half of that [Both laugh]. But err…in fact I didn’t to start off with, it’s…things have come back as we’ve gone on.

Hmm, yeah. Well that’s the great thing about oral history, cos you get to….

Yeah, yeah. It’s nice to get it down…now, while somebody remembers some of it [laughs].

Hmm exactly.

And who knows…at the exhibition. What, any idea when this is likely to be?

Errm…I’m not sure, I’m, I’m not entirely sure when it’s gonna be. I think, erm soon, cos I think errm Claire’s kind of wrapping up the project now, so errm I think in the next couple months.

Oh it’ll be this year?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, we’ll have to watch out for that. Show our nose, have a look round.

Yeah.

You never know, somebody might come up with something….

JG: Your mum used to be a piano teacher in the areas as well, didn’t she your Mum?

Yeah, oh yeah.

JG: When she was younger.

She got her degrees in music.

Oh wow.

Playing the piano and so far me grandson’s the only one now, errm no-one in the family has followed her.

No.

We couldn’t be less musical [both laughs], if we tried. But err none of our children have and so far none of their children apart from Daniel.

JG: Daniel.

He’s quiet isn’t he? [laughs]

JG: He’s telly’s not.

No.

Errm what did you dad do?

Errm he worked at Beckton Gas Works.

Oh ok.

And errr….

JG: Gas light and coke company.

Yeah as it was then. But errm…he was a warden, err or lookout person during the war, for fires and bombs dropping and err he was involved in that. But err…my mother, as I say she was in music, I think at one time she used to teach music but as far back as I can remember, she didn’t. So I think, so I think errm…

JG: It was in her younger days, wasn’t it?

Yeah, whether she stopped when my elder brother was..born.

Hmm.

Or whether she stopped when I was born, I don’t know. But I remember we had a piano and err….err a few years ago err, a relative of ours, my brother’s father in law, he used to play the piano and err they had one when they lived over at Gants Hill and he used to play on this piano and I thought, ‘He’s brilliant, he’s good.’ But then my Mother cam along and she was eaten up with arthritis sadly, errm and we kept on at her, come on time you had a go, ‘Oh I can’t’, she said. ‘I mean, you know, my hands are stiff I can’t do it’. And we kept on her so much, we said, ‘It doesn’t matter, it doesn’t have to be good, just see what you can do.’ And she got on the piano in the end and it come to life.

JG: He was a pub pianist.

Yeah, well no he was a pub pianist but it’s what my Mother said, ‘He is a good pub pianist, he’s not a professional’ [laughs]. She knew the difference.

Hmm.

We thought he was brilliant, he was very good, you’d just say a tune to him and he’d tinker away but when my Mother got on it, errm it was unbelievable and she did make that piano sing, didn’t she? But I know she played classical music and concerts up London.

Oh wow.

But err…we got a photo of her in her cap and gown [laughs], when she got her degrees. But err…

Wow, that must have been quite unusual for a woman to do it.

Yes but none of us have [laughs] followed suit.

She didn’t ever teach you to play the piano?

No, no. I tried playing the guitar once but err I could never do that…I got a guitar upstairs now but I’m no good at it. One thing me left land is useless.

Oh.

A result of diabetes.

JG: And your right hand.

Err right hand, see I can’t even remember that now [laughs]. Errm and me other hand, my fingers seem too thick, I can’t get on one string at a time, I cover half the strings with one finger but err…I just haven’t found the secret to it yet, if there is one.

Hmm.

But err…I think you need thin fingers for that [laughs]. So nobody’s…I couldn’t even play what we used to do at school, years ago, a comb with a bit of the old toilet paper round it [laughs], the old Izal…we used to play that in school sometimes. But err…I can’t even do that now.

Errm…just going back to the Park, you said that you didn’t remember your aunt rowing, but do you remember there being rowing there though?

Err…not a great deal cos I never got over the park that much, just occasionally and I don’t know when they used to row. I think it was in the evenings wasn’t so?

JG: I think so, I don’t know.

Mostly, one or two evenings a week, when they finished work.

Hmm.

They used to go over there. And err...they belonged to different rowing clubs, I know, my aunt err not the one in the boat, the other one.

JG: That was the one in the boat, that’s Aunt Lil in the boat.

Yeah, yeah of course it is. Yeah, cos Aunt Rose is the other one.

JG: Bank of England.

She worked at the Bank of England and she was in their rowing club.

Oh ok.

So…whether they ever won any cups or anything, I don’t know how well done. But they dressed the part anyway [laughs], but err no the one I remember, standing up against the door way, in the boat house.

Hmm...the two of them, yeah.

So you don’t remember that boat house though?

Yes.

Oh you do remember that.

Yeah, I remember that, that’s the one that used to have all the strings of coloured lights round it? Errm…obviously it was around about Christmas time, errm cos the lake being frozen over.

Of course yeah.

But I remember walking through, I don’t know where we’d been, errm but I was with my Aunt and Uncle, the aunt being the one on the boat. Errm…me uncle’s the ambulance driver, the one that remembers the Viking display over there and err we came pass there and I just couldn’t believe how many people was on the end of the lake, skating.

Hmm.

And a lot of them had proper skates on. So err…obviously they used to do it every year.

Hmm.

But err…as I say, I got on the lake and on the ice and skating around, but I think I fell down, most of it was done on me stomach. [laughs]. But err come out of there fairly quick, wasn’t in many minutes and then we came back home. But it’s, as I say about that time, very very soon after at least I used to go on the train.

Hmm. So would you say that was your strongest memory of the park, the train?

Yes, yes. Yeah I’ve always been interested in trains, always liked trains cos when, when I was I at junior school, at err Northbury over the back here, I used to go round [phone rings], sorry about that and over the iron bridge, over the back and I used to stand there, I always used to be late for school [laughs], I used to wait there for the steam trains to go under and you’d disappear in a cloud of smoke, completely disappear, you couldn’t see the sides of the bridge, it was so thick. By the time I got in school, I used to stink of…the err steam, from the coal and the fuel and all the oils in it, but that was always a beautiful…even today that is a smell I love. Fantastic smell….and err I was terrible for doing that, because obviously I was impressed by the steam trains then. But err you didn’t have all the diesels then but of course when things did change, the bridge was taken down because it wasn’t high enough.

Oh right.

And they out the current one there in, which is a good bit higher, they’ve got a flyover down there now, so it has to be quite a bit higher, cos it’s on the start of the flyover and errr that’s changed a lot.

Hmm. I guess you’ve Barking change a lot.

Err yes, a lot of changes in Barking but I’ve also missed a lot. I’ve got books upstairs somewhere of old Barking, there’s still current books, you still get them and err it shows down Upney Lane, do you know Upney Lane?

Oh no, not really.

No? Err…do you know the bus garage in Barking?

Oh yeah.

Yeah, well the road that goes off down towards the A13.

Ok.

From there, that is Upney Lane. Now there’s a station three quarters of a way down for the underground, well and the C2Cs that run now.

Hmm.

And there’s pictures there of how all that length of line, from Barking there used to be. Cos we never had a bridge Barking over the railway in those days, long before my time. And errm in fact err a chap that used to live over, across the road to us, errm Mr Shave as I recall. Err I remember him vaguely and he was very, very old then, he was retired, well retired then and errm I believe he was something to do with it and he may have been…on the gate crossing, where Barking station is now of a hill and of course the train was just flat, no bridge and they had level crossing gates.

Yeah.

But err…there’s pictures of it in there and pictures of errm Upney Lane how it used to be and it’s unbelievable.

Oh yeah, cos that used to be kind of countryside didn’t it?

Yeah, yeah quite interesting to see, how it used to be. People hearding their sheep through Chadwell Heath [laughs], unbelievable now.

Yeah.

Trolleybuses, I remember the trolleybuses.

So what were they like?

Err…quite nice in many ways, errm they used to run down the road here, up err Fanshawe Avenue and Ilford Lane and err the triangle just up the top here, as it’s known, where errm the road comes in round the corner and joins it, it’s known as the triangle, they’ve got trees round there now, that are lit up from the ground of a night, errm the buses used to come round there and the camber always used to be against them and when they come round, if they’d come round a bit fast , they’d throw the poles off the top and sometimes they’d get quite twisted and mangled up, but err they used to get a pole out from underneath the bus and hook them down and try and get them back on the cables over heard but err…they used to shift, they used to go…those buses cos they were a lot quieter.

Hmm.

But err…yeah they were quite an experience. But err I don’t know when they first started there [coughs] but err they’ve been gone a number of years now.

Hmm.

But err…we must have had trams as well at one time, because I remember the tram lines coming down from the station …and I think they come round into this road, so we must have had trams many years ago. But err I don’t remember any of that, only what I’ve seen in the books.

Yeah.

Even I’m not old enough for that [laughs].

Errm well I think I’ve finished with my questions, but do have anything you’d to like to say or any more memories?

No, only that it would be interesting errm to hear from anybody, that can remember err any of these things.

Hmm.

Particularly the train on the back of the lake.

Yeah.

That knows anything about it. But err…no I think that’s about it.

Cool.

The End

Transcript not to be used without copyright

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Victor Gibbard

Project: Barking Park

Date: 7.3.2012

Language: English

Venue: Interviewee’s House

Name of interviewer: Kara Black

Length of interview:

Transcribed by: Kara Black

Archive Ref: 2012_esch_BaPa_17

2012_esch_BaPa_18

2012_esch_BaPa_18

So here we go, um, and can I ask you to say your full name and date of birth please?

Yeah [coughs], my name is Billy Bragg, I was born on the twentieth of December nineteen fifty seven (1957).

Fabulous, and can I ask where you were born please?

I was born in Upney Hospital.

Ok. And what did your parents do for work?

My father was a warehouseman, it’s what it says on his wedding certificate. And er, he kinda worked for ancilliary companies around Fords, some testers, he worked for builders merchants for a while. And er, he died in nineteen seventy six (1976) of Lung cancer. And er, my mum did a lot, number of things. She worked for a little while at er, Barking Technical College, as a domestic science assistant. Helping out there with the cookery classes. Um, she ran a gang of women who did door to door leaflets in er, the early seventies (1970s). Er, round here. And then she worked for the last sort of, twenty years of her working life, she worked in er, a clearing house for NatWest, clearing cheques. And she passed away last year.

Oh sorry to hear that. Um, so, so what early memories do you have of growing up in the area, like what schools did you go to?

Well, I went to Northbury Junior School, which is not far from where I lived; I lived in a house on Park Avenue. Er, er, close to the park gates. Um, down in the, in the corner, of, of Park Avenue. And er, and our back garden backed on to the boating lake. So er, the walk to Northbury wasn’t that far, cross Tanner Street over the iron railway bridge, and you’re there. And then I went to er, Park Modern Secondary, I failed my eleven plus, went to Park Modern Secondary. And after a year it went comprehensive and it became Barking Abbey comprehensive, so I started off at the Sandringham Road building, and then as the time the, er, fourth years and fifth years were the Barking Park campus. Barking Abbey. So I just had to walk across the park, which was very handy, popped home at lunch time, popped back and do my lessons.

Not a bad commute either is it!

It wasn’t a bad commute at all, no, it was a lot of fun.

Fabulous! And what would you say your earliest memory of the park was?

Well the park was always been really present in my life, because growing up on Park Avenue, it, it really was the place where I did most of my socialising with my friends. Playing football, riding my bike, going on the boats, fishing, my first fumbling encounters with the opposite sex. Staying up late, and you know, staying out, that’s where we kind of hung out. So, yeah it was, it really was the centre of my, sort of childhood memories. They all take place in the park.

Could you maybe describe some of those experiences to me, obviously only if you want to?

Yeah sure. Yeah, yeah, well, the end of our garden, there’s a tow path and then there’s the boating lake, so in summer you know, the motor boats were going by all the time. The rowing boats were going by, and there used to be a er, a paddle steamer, called the Phoenix. Which, which went up and down as well, and that would go by. In fact somewhere I’ve got a photograph of it going by from our back garden, it’s a bit blurred but, um, I can remember that going by. So my earliest memories really, are, are, getting to go on the Phoenix, which was a real treat. But I, I really have earlier experiences and that, because there are photographs of me in a pram over the park. And my, my mum’s er, my dad’s mother lived with us, used to take me over there in the pram. And then, my dad’s old auntie used to take me over there to er, get an ice cream from the, the pavilion near by the swing yard. And she used to meet old people that she knew, so I would go over there and I’d be like er, little kid, and there’d be all these very old people. Victorian People, people from the Victorian age. And er, yeah that was my, kind of earliest memories. Um, the lake played a very big role in my park experience. The fact that it drained empty every year. Er, all the water disappears. I’ve never, to this day, know where it goes, but every Winter all the water would drain out and then you’d see all the things that people had thrown in there and everything. And a huge rite of passage for everybody, all the kids down out street was actually falling in the lake, everyone did it. And er, I managed to do it on a number of occasions, once when it was empty. And I split my head open! And I had xxxx two stitches in me head! And three stitches in my elbow. Which is probably the, thinking about the worst thing that happened to me when I was a kid, yeah, falling - I was trying to climb over the fence to get in to the boathouse, the old wooden boat house to let off some bangers, in the mud. Don’t ask me why! Things you do when you’re kids! And um, there used to a, a long low black wooden boat house, made of, of er, you know, slats of wood. Which nobody was ever allowed in, it was, it was, that’s where they kept the rowing boats for the original rowing club, before they had the, brick building there with the rowing tanks. And it was a very mysterious place, and it was down, it was there…that um, that was our local polling station. And there was an election. And I always thought it was really weird that my parents, I wasn’t allowed to go in, my parents would go in to this place where we weren’t allowed to go in, and when they come out there would be a new government!

[laughs].

Kind of had a mystic, it’s because it was very dark in there, and sometimes you could see through this, through the holes and see what was in there.

Yeah.

This mystic thing, that it’s always dark. It always held er, an air of mystery. ‘Cause it was painted, it was all you know, the wood was creosoted dark. Where the board, dark creosote. And before they built the, the current er, building there, the current boat house, it was a low old er, sort of quayside there, where the boats all docked. All the motor boats docked there, and the rowing boats docked there and the, the paddle steamer docked there. And then just past that on the right, there was an ice cream hut. What sold ice cream. And I got a little job in there, selling ice cream.

How old were you then?

Er, probably I was about nine or ten. And er, I helped the guy in there sell ice cream. And eventually he let me have a little cart, with dried ice in it. And he would send me up to the paddling pool, um, based from the pavilion, by the tennis courts, the central pavilion. He would send me up with this little cart, up by the paddling pool in summer, and I would sell er, ice creams to all the kids at the paddling pool. And if you put the dry ice in the paddling pool it made these fabulous white bubbles, like Doctor Who!

[laughs].

So that was my party trick! ‘Cause it was dry ice, ‘cause it was just like a wheelbarrow. It was a proper thing, and it was a proper ice cream freezer, but it was basically a, you know, two handles and a couple of wheels, and a load of dry ice, which burned you if you held it. And er, yeah he used to, let, send me up there. And before that, before I got a gig with him, the, how I got to know him actually, was um, it used to be, it, you would get thrupence back on coca cola bottles.

Ah.

They always - They recycled them. And they give you, you buy the coca cola bottle, and when you brought it back they give you back thrupence. So, in summer, when the park was full of people if you went in to the bins, you could find, you might find half a dozen.

Yes!

In a day. Half a dozen. Coca cola bottles. And that’s a lot of money, that’s you know, that’s one and sixpence. You know, which is er, seven and a half p in new money, but one and sixpence at the time you could buy quite a lot of stuff. You could buy an ice cream and still have a shilling to take home. And when I got a gig, working in there, I had a deal with a mate of mine, that he would bring the bottles back, and then I’d give him the thrupence for them. And then I’d give them to him out the back, and he would take them up the pavilion and get thrupence for them again!

[laughs].

It’s a bit out of order, innit!

It’s not the first time I’ve heard something like that…

No!

So…[laughs].

So, so that was all around, around er, down by the boathouse and the lake. And also what was significant there, is that little hill where the train turns around, where the turntable is for the train. That hill was very significant to us when we was kids, I don’t know why, it was much, much higher than that. It was probably, it was probably as high as, oh, it was just incredibly high. It certainly wasn’t what it is now, which is about nine foot. It must have been about a hundred foot high then. And, well, it seemed it anyway. Um, and we used to ride our bikes down it which is pretty daring. And we, after we saw Mary Poppins, I can remember going there with an umbrella with us, and trying to jump off that hill and fly! But it didn’t quite work out that way.

What was the result of that?

Just looked stupid really!

[laughs].

We were only little kids, didn’t really xxxx.

No broken bones of anything, ok [laughs].

No we were fine. But um, if you went down to the er, back of the shed where the train is parked, or used to be kept.

Yeah.

There was just about enough gap there to get a ten year old through, you could sneak xxxx, to get in to the what we used to refer to as the jungle. Behind there, we would have our secret meetings in there! Which was like, you know, out where grown ups couldn’t see us. And that’s a great thing about the park, it has a series of these areas of like, you know, sort of, I suppose they’re arboretums sort of thing, you know. These areas where there’s loads of trees altogether, you could go in to them and disappear and make dens and er, and er, the one behind, the one behind the er, where the railway, the little train stops is quite significant because obviously it was close. All this stuff was incredibly close to our house. And um, just by those gates there, on the corner in Park Avenue, originally there was an open space there, and a, a line of Poplars. And we used to play football there, and er, against the gable end of the house on Park Avenue. And he was always coming out and chasing us away. And my dad said to me once, he said, you know you shouldn’t annoy that guy, he’d said what his name was, I can’t remember his name, he’s a Polish guy. He didn’t speak very good English either so it made it even more funny to us. But my dad said to me one night, you know, you know he was in the Polish resistance in the war, he’ll probably cut your throat like that [clicks fingers]. After that [laughs] we went and played football somewhere else! It’s totally untrue, I’m sure he wasn’t, I’m sure he was, er, I wouldn’t be surprised if he was in the war, ‘cause everybody was in the war, but the idea that he would come in the night and kill [laughs], and get us, that was totally freaky! Completely freaky!

I suppose a story like that would have quite an impact on a young boy.

It did, yeah. ‘Cause everyone had done something in the war, at the time this was in the sixties (1960s) you know. Everybody down the street, you kinda, you sort of knew, all the dads, all the adults had done something in the war, the war was you know, only 25 years before. You know, it was very close. So, that kind of informed a lot of, how we thought about the world. And so, yeah, there were even first world war veterans, there was a guy who lived a few doors along from us on Park Avenue, I used to run errands for him. There used to be, at the top of park Avenue, um, where the triangle is, where the betting shop is now, there used to be a little grocery shop. And um, I used to run errands up there for this old guy who’d been gassed in the first world war. And some days when you went to talk to him, he could hardly breathe, he had this very wet sort of [makes noise], not everyday. It’s to do, I think it was to do with the atmosphere. If it was a damp day, he had a really, he was a lovely guy, his name was Will Vernon. He was a lovely bloke. So yeah, a lot of that initial stuff, was, based around playing quite close to our house. And then as I got older, you know, you started to range a bit wider over the park, ‘cause it’s a pretty huge park…

It’s a massive space!

It’s a massive space, yeah. And you’ve got that lovely contrast between the kind of, the bit where the ornamental gardens are, which is quite enclosed. And then the wide open space where the pitches are, which we used to refer to as the big field. Where you know, it was just massive. And that had two attractions, the first was you could go and play football over there. You could usually find some other kids and have a match, have a game over there. And if it got boring, if there was no one there, you could go in the swing yard, the swing yard was there. And that was where the fair was, in September. Which was always a huge highlight, living so close to the park.

Yeah.

When the fair came. It changed the whole atmosphere of the park. Um, in a, in a positive way I thought. You could, you know, you could lay in bed at night, and you could hear the fair you know, instead of the normal railway and the road, and the…boats on the river. You could hear, you could hear the fair, going. So that, you know, that was, that was always an exciting time. And of course, the, the carnival, Barking carnival kind of ended here. You know, it turned through the park gates and in there, and so you only had to stand at the top of Park Avenue, you could see the entire thing go by, so we did that every year. And um, the swing yard was always a, er, exciting place, they, they had some fabulously dangerous things in there, in the sixties (1960s), they had, they had a thing that was like a, er, like a cone, that, that kind of, I don’t know how to explain how it moved, it kinda went in and out. And around. And you kinda pushed on it, and it pushed back, and if you pushed it really hard it made this clunking noise, and sort of and almost bent, you know. And, and if you could get half a dozen kids on it, you could really you know, put it to it’s, push it to it’s limits. And there was a couple of other swing things as well, there was like a swing boat, that you could sit on and push on that. That was, that was pretty hairy as well! Um, but of course, um, you know, it was, it was all re-designed in the eighties (1980s). And they put in stuff over the tarmac on the floor, so it sort of, probably not so.

Do you think that was the introduction of health and safety laws?[laughs]

Well you know, you don’t want to get, I can remember kids splitting their head open over there, and breaking their arms and stuff like that. Breaking their legs. You’re not going to want to do that in a kids play yard do you? So, it’s probably as well that that didn’t happen. Um, the Lido played a big part of our summers. My mum, and her friend Gloria, loved going over the Lido, they loved it! They would go there through the summer holidays, we’d be there all day if it was nice. We would literally be there all day. And I have lovely memories of um, the water being a fabulous colour, a blue colour. And always freezing cold, as would be an outdoor swimming pool in Britain. Of the, whoever put the um…the paving in there, it was impossible to fall over and not skin your knees, because there was water everywhere. You just couldn’t not skin your knees over there. And everything we, ‘cause we lived so close, they always brought orange juice and sandwiches, so we didn’t have to buy them. And course the queues were mad! The queues were just crazy, the place would be rammed. And so, you know, everything kinda tasted of Tupperware. Whenever I see Tupperware [laughs], I can immediately taste orange juice! [laughs]. From Tupperware. It’s kind of, very evocative. And my dad, my dad um, was around in the thirties (1930s), in nineteen thirty five or thirty six (1935 or 1936), Barking Council had er, a big pageant over the park. Um, and er, the um, the Lido doubled as Barking Abbey, they re-enacted Barking Abbey being burned down by the Vikings. And my dad saw that as a kid, he saw that there was all, er, student, er, school children from Barking Abbey were Vikings, and they came and attacked the Lido, and then there were all people in the Park dressed up as you know, um, Alfred the Great, and er, the Romans, and all you know, famous people that come here, um, if you go down to Valence House there’s photographs of them, it looks brilliant! And they did a whole pageant over the park, over a series of a week. I think it was, I think it might have been um, George the fifth’s jubilee or something like that, in nineteen thirty six (1936). Just before the war. Yeah.

I’ve heard of um, the nineteen thirty one (1931) pageant, ‘cause I interviewed a couple of people who took part in that…

It might have been thirty one (1931). It might have been.

But maybe there was another one as well?

I might be getting it mixed up, it might have been nineteen thirty one (1931). And that would certainly make my dad younger, ‘cause he was born in twenty four (1924) so, he would have been more of a kid in thirty one (1931). And then during the war, um, he was involved in er, he was a boy scout, so he had a, he had this gig, where by um, after the air raids were over, he had to go out on his bike, and take messages. Because often, if there’d been a bad raid, the phone lines would be down, and they couldn’t communicate, so they couldn’t say you know, we’ve got a house on fire, we need, you know, so boy scouts were, were, he had a list of places he had, you know, and they would say take this to, you know, certain letter, and he would, off he would cycle and do that. And, my grandfather, who kept a diary during the war, and talks of, you know, one night in, in the park, near the boat house, with er, being there with my dad, and them trying to deal with incendiary bombs. Well, while at the same time, the bombs were going over and the ack ack guns which were also in the park, were firing. I mean what it must have been like, you can imagine the, the noise and the flashing of the ack ack guns. And then the drone of the planes going over, and then these bloody incendiary devices, which were made for, phosphorous, which will burn, xxxx so you can’t er, er, I don’t think you can put them out with water. You have to, you have to smother them. Er, and then they, they, they eventually invented one that if you did that, it exploded. And killed the person who was doing it. So, you know. And that was where I was playing football fifteen years later.

It must have been terrifying!

Yeah, and you don’t think, you don’t think of those things, I only really, I never spoke to my dad about this ‘cause I only really read my grandfathers diary you know, the last thirty, twenty five years. And started to piece together, what was, you know, what it was like during the war here. But, but the park was you know, was Barking’s main defence. The anti aircraft guns here, in the park, so, it did get attacked quite a bit, it did, certainly the, the house of the old soldier that I, used to drop, er, do errands for, got hit, a direct hit, you know just sort of three houses along from our house on Park Avenue. And was totally destroyed. So um, you know, it did, the war did come right into the park.

I can imagine it must have been absolutely terrifying for the people xxxx….

Just hearing, just hearing them shoot, you know, because you know that if the guns are firing, the planes are right overhead.

Yes.

So people who were in the, in the shelter, know exactly, you know, instead of sitting there wondering if the planes are going to go over, you know they’re, you know, they’re going by.

Do you remember any sort of um, remnants of war time being in the park, because I know other people have spoken about um, sort of tunnels and things that they used to play in just after the war? I was wondering…

No, I don’t remember there being any remnants of the war in the park. There were remnants around Barking, there was still places that…had been bombed and hadn’t been rebuilt um but I don’t, I don’t remember any of those in the park and I kind of, I think there was very few places in the park where we didn’t go and have a good old nose around. We were very good at that me and my mates [interviewer laughs] but uh another thing we used to enjoy doing is to walk all the way around the lake, you know, walk up the tow path to the far end of the park, the South Park Drive End and then if you go round the back of that you can walk all the way along back the other side and I know sometimes you have to climb over trees and it’s quite an adventure. It seemed to take all day as well as I remember it and there’s one bit opposite the boat house where you have to go across, it’s got a kind a, of some sort of sluice gate there and you have to go across this rather narrow piece of concrete, which was always the height daring and um also there would be uh, there’s a river, there’s a little river just the other side of the, the far side of the lake called Locksford Water, which in some places was fordable and other places um it wasn’t but you also there was…people on the other side of the river in Ilford.

Mmh.

So it was, if you saw kids on the other side of the river it was, you could throws stones at them [interviewer laughs] because they weren’t from where we were. I can remember doing that a few times or maybe they threw stones at us but whatever. You know there was always, there was always a bit of a rivalry there.

The early turf wars.

Yeah always goes on doesn’t it, always goes on.

Of course that’s children for you as well.

Yes, yeah, yeah.

Fabulous and when, you talked a little bit earlier um they would drain the lake every winter. That’s something I’ve never heard before.

Yeah every winter, yeah. Every winter the lake was emptied.

Do you know why they did that?

No, I don’t know why. I don’t know where the water went.

Okay.

I don’t know why they did it. Um it was, you know, it’s basically mud and it’s not that deep the lake. If you fall in it, even when I was a kid, it couldn’t of been much deeper than, than this table.

Right.

You know, uh or perhaps a little bit deeper maybe, maybe two or three feet but I’ve never, I’ve never fell in, as long as you fell in feet first, you wouldn’t, your head wouldn’t go under.

Right.

You know. The most embarrassing time I ever fell in the lake was um one time in the 1980s when I was an adult [interviewer laughs] and I had, we were going out and I hadn’t took the dog for a walk so I took him in the park for a wee and the lake was iced over.

Right.

And he got on the ice and he wouldn’t come off the ice so I thought well if would keep, hold him up, it might hold me up.

Mmh.

I went straight through [interviewer laughs] and he came, as soon as he saw me go in he run off and came back home, sat on the doorstep so like an idiot. Another time um I was in a kind of punk band that we used to rehearse in my parents’ back room, Park Avenue, and we decided, we went over the park one night and had a sort of band meeting and we sat under that, not the, not the tow path but the slightly higher up um road that goes the length of the lake and um we decided that we were going to give up our day jobs and go and live up in this place in Northamptonshire and the keyboard player said ‘if you decide to do that I’m going to jump in the lake’ [interviewer laughs] and we did decide to do it and he did jump in the lake, which I thought, he didn’t have to [interviewer laughs] but he was trying to get us to understand that, and he jumped in the lake yeah and drove home after he jumped in the lake, [interviewer laughs] which is, which is a bit sad and one time I was and this was when I was a teenager so I must have been about I don’t know, fourteen, fifteen, I was in our back room and my mum was out, she was out um putting out the washing and I heard her scream and I looked out the back garden just in time to see her jump the fence at the bottom of our garden and jump in the lake. I couldn’t get over that fence, even though I was a teenager, I couldn’t get over the fence so I ran around to find her on the tow path soaking wet with an old man who’s crying and a soaking wet push chair with two kids strapped in it and she had seen this old man with a push chair and the push chair had gone in and completely instinctively, like sort of like superman, she had gone over the back fence. I mean she was quite athletic my mum, she always was, you know, she could always beat me to the top of the road in a race [interviewer laughs] but she literally with a single bound had gone over, jumped into the lake and then the roots of XXXX she lifted the two babies and the baby carriage out and plonked it on the side and they came in our house and they sat, sat down, sat them down, dried them off and the old man said to her ‘please don’t tell anyone this happened because my, my daughter would never let me out with the twins again’ and that was it and then a few weeks later he came round with some flowers and a box of chocolates for her and that was it. No more was said about it, yeah. Mother, mother went in and pulled these…

What a hero.

Yeah, pulled these two kids out. The whole thing and she didn’t even know what she was doing, you know, she just saw it and just went.

Instinct almost kicked in.

Yep, exactly, yeah a hundred per cent, hundred per cent. She knew if she run round it might take too long so she just went boom over that concrete fence. Mmh amazing.

Amazing.

In it. Yeah.

We talked a little bit about the boats and things on the lake.

Mmh.

And you mentioned the old boat house.

Yeah.

I was wondering because it was such a mystical place to you, did you ever manage to get into it eventually or…?

Ah I joined the rowing club.

Okay.

Eventually ‘cause some of the girls from school joined the rowing club. [Interviewer laughs] It seemed a good way to get in with them but by that time they had built the uh, the new uh, the new, what became the Tai Kwando Club but before that they had a rowing tank in there so I spent more time in their and it didn’t seem quite so mystic then. [Interviewer laughs] I didn’t really uh; I didn’t really see it in that same light. It’s weird how things isn’t it, after a while. You don’t really grasp but walking to school from my house to uh Barking Abbey, some mornings if it was really foggy, it was like going into a different world.

Really.

Particularly going across the great, the big field, you know, you had no idea where you was so you would go from your house to school through this kind of like, you know, like you were on Dartmoor or something like that, you know, you only knew where you were when you came to the little road and in the XXXX I would keep walking in this general direction and I found that quite adventurous that. [Interviewer laughs] I think I liked that.

I could just imagine it feels quite spooky or something.

Yeah very spooky yeah but at the same time, you know, it was…the spookiest place in the park, always to me was the war memorial and as long as I can remember the words on the names on the war memorial were illegible. It’s only been in the last few years I’ve now noticed that they’ve recast it. Whatever they originally did it in; I think the stone was too soft. You couldn’t read the names, you could read across the top ‘the honoured dead’ and I always thought it was a terrible irony that they was honoured but you couldn’t read their names but I see they’ve uh, they’ve done something about that now.

Other people must of thought the same thing as you thought.

I guess so, yeah, I guess so and before they built the indoor bowling alley, kind of opposite the war memorial about um fifty yards onto the, actually onto the field there was the best conker tree in the park. That was a brilliant conker tree there. I was heart-broken when they chopped that down because that was a really big thing as well, conkers. You know, you’d, a certain time of year there would be, the park would be full of kids throwing sticks [interviewer laughs] into the trees which, there was one kid who would try to climb the trees who was a bit of a nutter from down our road and he finally uh proved at what a nutter he was by using a metal bar to get conkers. Now the difference between using a stick and a metal bar, it only really becomes clear when it falls and hits you on the head, which of course it did, it fell and hit him on the head eventually. It split his head open so that was uh, that was a heart-break but getting conkers was a big part of uh the rituals of, you know, living next door to the park, we always had more conkers than all the other kids, the kids who lived in the Lintons, didn’t have anywhere to get conkers so readily and easily so that was a, that was one of the pluses of living next door to the park.

Okay and from a lot of your stories it sounds like a lot of, you know, as a child you probably got hurt quite a lot in the park.

[Interviewer laughs] Oh I wouldn’t say hurt. [Interviewer laughs]

Um but were there kind of people around like um, I don’t know, park wardens or keepers keeping an eye on things.

There was always Parkies, there was loads of them. Well it seemed there was loads but, and you couldn’t walk on the grass, they really didn’t like and you weren’t supposed to ride your bike, they didn’t like that in the park but there was one guy called, who is Irish who we all referred to as Paddy. I don’t know what his real name was. He was a lovely guy, he was a really nice guy, he was a little guy and was a, he had a very, very strong Irish accent and he was sometimes hard to um understand and his, his salutation was [in Irish accent] ‘how are ya?’ ‘How are ya?’ ‘How are ya?’ Like that. How are you, you know, that’s how he would say it and he always seemed to have his, because they had, you know, Parkies had peak caps in those days. You know, they looked like, you know, like they were proper doing something, not someone in a high-res jacket who’s basically a glorified gardener. These guys had an authority and he never ran fast enough to catch. They had whistles as well. [Interviewee whistles] They’d point at you like that and it was a constant because you weren’t allowed into the, into the bushes, into the gardens, you know, which was where we loved playing, that’s where we always wanted to play war in there because you can get bits of dirt, what we’d call dirt bombs, basically bits of dirt together, and throw them and they would, when they hit the ground they would burst and they’d look like someone was shooting machine gun, you know, tut, tut, tut, like you’d see on a film so we loved throwing dirt bombs, not real stones, just dirt bombs. Just loved that whole, if they’d been a war film on that night we would all be over the park running round and the Parkie would come and chase us off and there was some of them were right toe rags. They were really nasty, they should never should have been near, allowed anywhere near anyone, you know, having fun, definitely not children but Paddy was a lovely guy and I used to see him, even after I’d moved away I would occasionally see him in Barking and say ‘hello, how are you?’ I mean he did, you know, he did his best to try and say, you know, tell us not to do things but he just really was like, you know. [interviewer laughs] He always had his hat pushed back and a fag on, you know, and he kind of looked like, if you can imagine a sort of cheerful um old man Steptoe.

Okay.

Without such a black view of the world. He had kind of more, he only really got angry if he was with another Parkie and then he would go through the motions of getting angry but, you know, he used try and, you know, cadge us for fags and stuff like that. [Interviewer laughs] I have very happy memories of him. He was a lovely, lovely bloke. You could sit and have a chat with him.

Sounds like a pretty cool fella.

He was. He was a nice guy. You know, he was a nice sort of. You know he loved the park and he loved kids. He obviously, you know, I don’t know if he had kids of his own, I don’t know where he lived but he was kind of somehow he was sort of part of it, you know, without being in our lives he was part of our lives. We knew he was there if there was any trouble in the park. You know there was always someone around who could sort of sort you out, help you out, not that I can ever remember there being any that kind of inverted commas trouble.

Okay. Do you remember any sort of um, I mean we talked a little bit about the carnival and the fair?

Yeah.

Um and you mentioned that you used to stand at Park Avenue and sort of watch all the procession, did you ever used to come into the park and join in the celebrations?

Yeah of course, yeah, yeah.

Okay, could you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah, yeah, well on the Saturday of the Carnival, it was always brilliant because it was like a social event because you’d have the people who wanted to come, it was the day of the fair so you’d have all the people and I think the rides were cheaper on the first day, you know, and they had all great stuff in those days. I mean they still had um boxing booths where, you know, you’d go and fight someone if you was stupid enough. [Interviewer laughs] Someone would do that and they had, they didn’t have the freak show but they certainly had the thing were you went and saw pictures of freaks, you know, that sort of weird stuff and uh ghost trains and dive bombers and there were always, whatever the youth cult of the time was, there was always loads of them looking for a fight because the people who run the fair were always willing to fight whoever was around and they was always kind of like, people who run the fair always seemed to be greasers and the local people always seemed to either be mods or skinheads or suedeheads or casuals, you know, sort of people who fight greasers but I used to love the fair for the bright lights, for the chance to do something with your mates that was brave and prove that you were, you know, go to on dive bomber or something, on the ghost train and to hear great music. They always seemed to play music that you couldn’t get there’s a rather risqué reggae song by a guy called Max Romeo called ‘Wet Dream,’ which when I was a teenager, when I was at school when I was thirteen or fourteen, was something that everybody was talking about but nobody had heard, nobody had a copy, didn’t know where to buy it but people talked about it and if you went over the fair invariably there would be a couple of rides that would be playing it very loud and as the rides started the record brrrr…and then on it would go but there something really cool about being on a ride with your mates with some girls watching listening to this risqué reggae song. [Interviewee and interviewer laugh] Somehow this seemed to be the absolute sort of zenith of teenhood.

Mmh.

At the time and then when it, when the fair went if you came over there was kind of like all these marks in the grass where the rides had been like there footprints where the grass hadn’t grown for a week or two, it was yellow and if you XXXX [interviewee rubs hands] you would sometimes find money that had fell out of people’s pockets while they were upside down on the dive bomber. You know, people would, I suppose people now come with metal detectors but in those days it was left to, you know, teen, you know, sort of twelve years olds like me. Just…

I’ve got this vision in my head like a hundred twelve years olds just sort of going through the grass.

Not quite a hundred but it was always, it was a known thing to do for those of us that, because there was little gaggle of us that lived down Park Avenue. There’s this little um sort of, I suppose you might call it a Battenberg of streets, like a Battenberg cake of crossed streets, Park Avenue, Monteagle, Faircross and Fanshawe. That little, the houses that were actually built when the park was built, before they built the houses on, these house on Longbridge Road are all from the, from the twenties but the Park Avenue houses are actually all from between 1900 and 1910 and when they were built they actually called New Barking. They were like the absolute limits and when my dad was a kid, Upney Lane from the, from the Royal Oak onwards was really countryside, it was a lane, it wasn’t, you know, it was fields and Upney Lane was covered over with trees and it was only when they started building the Leftley Estate in the twenties and thirties that all that, all that changed so the kids of us who lived in these older houses on Park Avenue and Faircross, Fanshawe and Monteagle we kind of came together because they were older stock than the Leftley Estates and because they were cheaper they tended to be immigrant families so when I, first kids I remember living in the houses opposite were all Irish and their parents all worked for Fords and they all went to St Joseph’s Primary so I didn’t see them at school, they went to a completely different school because they were Catholics and then they moved off somewhere leafy and then a load of people came from the Caribbean and then they were followed by people from South Asia, you know, Bangladeshis, all to work at the car factory and you know they all worked the line for a few years and then moved off somewhere, Chigwell, Chingford, Chelmsford, you know, all these kind of places and the, and the park just responded to them. They came and it responded and, you know, just after my mum died last year I was over for the house and the Mela was on, you know, it was exactly the same like when the fair was on. The streets were full of, you couldn’t park nowhere [interviewer laughs], families were thronging in and out of the park. You could hear a distant hum. It’s the same, same complete same thing, you know, and I’m sure it’s the same vibe over there, you know, young people trying to look impressive, members of the opposite sex. [Interviewer laughs] You know, kids trying to have a good time and their parents holding them back and you know. That’s what it looked like to me, it looked like exactly the same thing.

You mentioned then about, you know, obviously coming over and try to impress the opposite sex and things like that, it’s something I’ve heard quite a lot, there were certain areas in the park where courting couples would go and hang out or, you know, they would take a lady on the motorboats. Would you ever do anything like that?

No I’m afraid I was more kind of like, it’s more about going in the bushes, [interviewer laughs] my teenage experience I’m afraid because you’ve got to remember my parents could be walking round the park looking for me.

Right.

Because of the close proximity, you know, it wasn’t, it wasn’t unusual to be um involved in a football game, an ad hoc football game with jumpers for goal posts.

Mmh.

That was coming to its inextricable climax and you were very, very close to your team scoring the winning goal and everything was going to be absolutely, you know, everything was, was finely balanced to resolve the issue and your dad would turn up and say ‘come on time for your dinner.’ And you’d [interviewer bangs on table] ‘Steven’ [interviewer laughs] and he wouldn’t come away, he’d shout and I’m XXXX or someone else has to go or, you know. I can remember what you used to, this was a weird, weird part of it, you would regularly see over the park members of the West Ham team of that period, you know, over there. I don’t know if they, you know, perhaps they had relatives who lived around on the Leftley or, you know, around. I can see, I remember seeing Martin Peters over there. I can remember seeing a few footballers and, you know, and they were always happy to sign autographs because, you know, when I was a kid West Ham won the cup, they won the European Cup, they won the World Cup so you know they were pretty big around here.

Did Bobby Moore play for West Ham by any chance?

Yeah he did.

I’ve heard that he used to be seen in the park quite a lot.

Yep he was the captain, yep.

Sorry I don’t know very much about football.

No, he was the captain, he was born in Upney Hospital as well and um yeah but at the time almost all West Ham’s players were born in the East End, you know, it wasn’t, as I got older, you know, in seventy-five when they won the cup, it wasn’t uh uncommon to see members of the team in a bar in Barking or in the shops, you know, in the middle of the week so, you know, it’s different now. Teams from all over the place, nothing wrong with that, wrong with that but at the time it was much more of a local thing.

That’s lovely and you mentioned um the lido a little bit earlier as well.

Yeah.

I was wondering if you could describe like a typical day at the lido for you.

Yeah a typical day at the lido in my memory would be searingly hot. Um would be absolutely rammed packed with people uh and the far side, you came into the lido from the, from the south, the entrance was on the south side, opposite side to the lake, facing Longbridge road and there was always queues to get in. The changing rooms were pretty basic. Uh there were cubicles but there, and they had metals lockers so there was a continual clang of metal lockers in there all the time and kids, mums shouting for their kids and kids shouting for their mums, and vice versa. Um at the either end of um the two, of the big swimming pool, it was a huge swimming pool. I mean the biggest swimming pool I had ever seen in there. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was Olympic and it was really deep as well, it was seven foot deep in the middle. The depth was in the middle and they had two or three tier boards uh that, you know, Mr Wig used to dive off the top one. You should ask him about that yeah that was his party trick. [Interviewer and interviewee laugh] It was like ‘wow it’s Wiggy’s dad.’ He’d go, he was very good at it and um at either end there was a white ornamental fountain that was running all the time and you often ended up in the fountain [interviewer laughs] messing about, splashing about in the fountain and then on the far um northern side there was a big uh flat area, um which were you would put down your towel and you would sit there with your family like on a beach. It was kind of like a beach, you know, how you put your stuff down and you make a space and that’s your space and you come and go. It was like that but accept it was really crammed really, you know, it was like Glastonbury Festival [interviewer laughs] trying to get through and find where your mum is and everything like and then, you know, your little brother’s fell over, you’ve got to go and, go back and tell your mum, come get your little brother [interviewer laughs] and it was like a mixture between a day at the beach, Glastonbury Festival and some crazy market, you know, [interviewer laughs] where people are trying to do loads and loads of different things and a constant noise, like a, like a uh penguin colony ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra all the time. [Interviewer laughs] That doesn’t sound like penguins at all, does it?

It’s a brilliant mental image though.

Puffin. Yeah, yeah like a seagull colony. Ra, ra, ra, ra. All the time. [Interviewer laughs] You know, the whole noise but incredible, you know, incredible place on a nice day you would never believe you were in the middle of the East End you would think you were in Marbella or something. It was brilliant.

It sounds so wonderful.

It was, it was great, it was cool.

It’s one of my biggest regrets, I’ll never see it.

And then the whole thing was cool. The whole thing was, it was like, it was like, you know, having your own playground.

Yeah.

You know and it’s great. Where I live in Dorset now, I live on a beach and if it’s a nice day, there can be like 600 cars in the car park, next to our house, the next field, you know and people say to me ‘don’t it annoy you, all the grockles?’ and I say ‘look mate I grew up next to a park in a city.’ Alright if you live in a place like this, how lucky I was to do that, you live in a place like that, people are going to come.

Yeah.

People are going to come, you know, they’re all gone by tea time, it’s the same with the park, you know, on the beach, they’re gone by teatime to get their lunch in a B and B or their dinner or whatever,. You’ve got it all to yourself, you know, and it’s the same with the park.

Yeah.

You know, everyone’s gone by home by the evening and if you get up in the morning or there’s days when it’s beautiful and it’s, not everyone’s off school and you’ve got it all to yourself, you know, it’s just a fabulous thing to grow up next to because, you know, it’s pretty packed around here. Always was as long as I can remember, it’s not a new phenomenon, you know, you have to drive a long way to find some fields and a, and a lake so, you know, I feel, I feel very privileged to sort of grown up with that experience and to have had the opportunity to run wild in safety, relative safety um so close to home, you know.

Yeah, it’s something a lot of young people don’t have these days isn’t it?

No and didn’t then, didn’t then. You know when you think of all those kids who lived in the Lintons.

Yeah.

They didn’t really have, even have back gardens, you know, and uh had to cross several main roads to get to the park but that’s, you know, that’s something that I'll always think was a fortunate part of my childhood to be, to have grown up in, you know, in such a wondrous, magical place.

It’s amazing. Would you mind if I just quickly ask you one more question? I know you’re really busy

No it’s alright, we’re good, we’re good, we’re good.

Um I was wondering if you could sort of describe going on the paddle steamer because a lot people have talked about it but a lot of people don’t really remember being on it, whether they just didn’t or…

Okay.

If that’s okay?

Yeah, yeah, I’ll try. I’ll try and describe it. The paddle steamer was, it was very basic. Um it, it was kind of, it was sort of oblong in shape. It had the paddle wheel at the back, which was the whole width of the thing. It wasn’t, it wasn’t very wide and it had um, it had a sort of canopy over it, held up by uh struts so it was open, a little fence and the seats were um. The whole thing was made, was made of uh, the deck was made of wooden uh slats. There were little gaps in them, they were really darkly varnished and the, and the seats, um I don’t think you sat front on. There were two benches either side and a, and a middle bit down the middle and everyone sat, it was back to back so the people on the left hand side were looking out to the left and people on the right hand side were looking out to the right. That’s how, that’s how I remember. It wasn’t like seating like on a, on a bus, you know, on a train. It was more, you know, geared to seeing and uh it went down to the, to the Ilford Lane Gates, turned around and then I think it, I’m not sure if it went as far as the first island and turned, it might have behind have gone behind the first because, because the motorboats only went to the first island, you know, and then and then came back. You weren’t allowed, the motor boats didn’t go all the way down to the South Park end. The rowing boats did. The rowing boats could go all the way to South Park but the motor boats had to turn after the first island and uh and the paddle steamer just kind of like XXXX, it didn’t go very fast. I’m sure it wasn’t very big. I mean it’s big in my memory it was big but I’m sure and I don’t think it was a steamer. I think it was electric. I think it was, I don’t remember it. I think it had a little chimney but I can’t remember them stoking up and making it go. I think it was just, you know. It looked great. I mean it looked really, really brilliant and uh, you know, it, on that little narrow lake, where those, because the motorboats were sat quite low in the water uh and it was, it was a nice thing to go on and there was always queues. There was always queues to go on the motorboats and there was always queues to go on the paddle steamer.

Mmh.

The Phoenix it was called.

Yeah.

And uh my nan used to take me on it. [Interviewer laughs]

Did she used to enjoy it as well?

Yeah she did. Yeah she’d grown up there. She’d uh, she lived in the house next door as a girl and she got married there as well in 1918 and then she gave birth there. Well dad was born in 1924 in that little house on Park Avenue so she kind of spent her whole life there. I’m not sure, I don’t know if they, well I don’t think the houses were built when the park opened in, in the 1890s and that house where we lived was kind of built in 1905, 1906 but um certainly she was still a girl when she moved here with her sister and her mum and dad so the park would have been as familiar to, I mean there that’s gone. The bandstand has gone, that’s not there anymore. The good old conker tree has gone. [Interviewer laughs] Um I’m pleased the paddling pool and the lido are still there. I don’t know if there’s any plans to do anything with the lido.

Um yeah with the lido they’ve, they’ve actually removed the pool and it’s going to be like a wet play area?

Oh lovely.

There’s going to be like fountains for kids to run through.

Exactly, sounds great.

Yeah.

Because of all the things that we did when we were over the lido, going in the swimming pool was not [interviewer laughs] predominant in my memory, really because it was too cold and uh it was, you know, a width there was pretty, pretty wide, you know, you can do a lot of swimming but running around, messing around, getting wet.

Mmh.

Splashing each other [interviewer laughs] that was much of the attraction. [Interviewer and interviewee laughs] So it makes sense it should be something like that.

Yeah and obviously with the British summers it’s probably not going to get much use as a?

Well you’d be surprised. I think the good people round here, if there is a bit of sunshine, they tend to come out into the park.

Mmh.

You know, it don’t take much to get people to come out there.

I’m thinking more of people, they actually have holidays abroad and things more now I think than they used to so maybe they’ve not so much.

Actually, you know, I live by a beach and people are spending more time, coming.

Really.

Yeah.

Oh fabulous.

It’s not so expensive.

Yeah.

You know and a park is like a, a, you know, it’s like a local uh, a local way of. If it’s a nice day you can go to the park.

Yeah.

What are we going to do today, where’d go over the park. You know.

With day a like this it's wonderful isn’t it?

Yeah, it’s always and it, you know, changes all the time, changes with the seasons.

Yeah.

You know, it's not like something that’s the same every time your there, you know, like a, like a theme park or, or Legoland or something like that, you know, it’s always different.

What would you say your favourite season in the park was?

Autumn.

Could you tell me why?

Well because it changes colour. Um you get the conker season. It’s the, the fair comes.

Yeah.

You have to go back to school but [interviewer laughs] you know. It always seemed to me to be the time like I, I most enjoyed. I mean summer was nice and then spring too. Even winter but autumn I think, you know, the piles of leaves, where you could go and kick them. The Parkies would pile them up and you would kick them down again. [Interviewer and interviewee laugh]

Just winding up Parkies then yeah.

Yeah, at constant war with the Parkies yep and uh I think, you know, the football season was about to start so everyone was geared up for that again. Summer seemed like very, very long in those days. Long old gap when there was no football and that came around again. So yeah.

Fabulous.

Autumn, autumn was good for me.

And obviously I know we’re running out of time a bit. Is there anything else that you’d like to say about the park?

Uh I’m trying to, just trying to think of, looking at the map. I’ve been looking on the map on the wall there as aide-mémoire of all the things that I, I’ve done, you know, in there and uh, I think, maybe probably covered most things. There weren’t any squirrels there when I was a kid.

Really?

No squirrels are a recent phenomenon. [Interviewer laughs] Not that recent, they’ve probably been there thirty years but I don’t remember any squirrels when we were kids that’s a, that’s a different thing and uh the hills seemed hillier and the trees seemed taller and the gap, you know, the big field seemed bigger. [Interviewer laughs] Ah.

So the whole park shrunk down a little bit.

The train, the little train.

Ooh do you have memories of the train?

Yeah we used to race it on our bikes, the train. We used to ride on it. Um if you were really cool, you might get to help the bloke who ran it.

Right.

Sometimes if he’s, because he always had a kid who helped him, it might have been his son or his nephew, I don’t know, or whoever and if he wasn’t around they might let you help so you get to ride on it. Sit on the back and ride on it, stuff like that because there used to be um half way up the track there was, there was a gate, a little uh crossing there so they would need someone there to close, to open the gate and close the gate when the train running so that was, that was quite a good function and they’d turn the turntable as well but um most of the time it was just racing it on our bikes. I can remember doing that quite a bit because they never had the speed bumps there either in them days, [interviewer laughs] that wasn’t part of it. It was a little bit more straightforward.

Lovely, okay well if there is anything else you would like to say.

I can’t remember if there is anything else to say really.

You’ll think of half a dozen things tonight won’t you?

I will. I certainly will [interviewer laughs] and that’s the other thing. I do sometimes come here to the park in my dreams.

Yeah.

I find myself in it. Wondering around somewhere doing something, knocking around with people I’ve totally forgotten, doing some crazy thing. Uh it was, it was where my childhood more or less sort of was centred on for me and those kids that we knocked around with. That’s a great place.

Yeah. It sounds like it's had quite an influence on you, doesn’t it really?

I wouldn’t say an influence in that sense but when I, if you want, if you wanted to talk about my, you know, childhood, the first fifteen, sixteen years of my life, then the park does loom very large in that, you know, it was too good a resource for my parents not to bring me in here every day in a pram. All the earliest pictures are all sitting somewhere at the park, doing something in the park and um it still, it still has its pull I think. People still, you know, my nephew now lives in the house we grew up since my mum passed away and um we always used to refer to it as Nanny Maries? House and now she’s passed away they call it the Park House.

Okay.

And hopefully, you know, if they have some kids, they’ll, they’ll get the run of the place as well.

That’s fabulous. I like to think of all these different generations.

Certainly how it was in our family. My dad and Mr Wig and all those kids, had the run of it when they were growing up in there. You know and it benefited them and me and my brother and that generation, we, you know, we’ve had a good run round and I know my nephews, not my son because we’ve spent a lot of time away, we haven’t lived here, but I know my mum always used to take my nephews over there, three of them and uh, you know, it’s just a, I think it has great social value, a place like that were you can, you know, go do a number of different activities even if it’s just walking around, it’s good to do that.

Yeah, definitely. Well brilliant. Thank you very, very much.

My pleasure.

Really, really XXXX to take your time.

Nice to talk about it.

The End

Transcript not to be used without copyright

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Billy Bragg

Project: Barking Park

Date: 08/03/2012

Language: English

Venue: The Lodge, Barking Park

Name of interviewer: Claire Days

Length of interview: 54:46

Transcribed by: Claire Days and Joel Crowley

Archive Ref: 2012_esch_BaPa_18

Interview Details

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Taskin Saleem

Project: Growing Old Gracefully - SubCo

Date of interview: 06/03/2018

Language: English

Venue: SubCo

Name of interviewer: Francis Ball

Length of interview: 02:25:25

Transcribed by: Francis Ball

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_01

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Interviewer

Interviewee

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[00:00:00]

Okay, it’s the 6^th of March, and I’m interviewing Taskin Saleem as part of the SubCo project, at SubCo. Erm, could you give me your date of birth please just for the tape.

Okay. 12^th of February 1962.

Okay, and where did you grow up?

I grew up in South London.

MmmHmm.

We came from Pakistan when I was three years old, so my life has always been in South London, but my working life has been in, er, East London.

Yeah. Do you remember Pakistan and moving, or…?

Er, not from that young age. Obviously since I’ve been back and forwards since then, yes, but from three total blank [Laughs]. That was 1965 we came. And my father used to work for the Pakistani High Commission, so we came over then, then he decided to stay on. So been to, obviously primary school, secondary school has always been here, and university. So it’s as if I, you know, was born here but not quite, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

What, what sort of work does the High Commission do? Is that sort of like an embassy?

Yeah it’s an embassy. Yeah, it’s the same thing. So, erm, he was an accountant.

Oh wow.

So he ran the accounts department for them. So he was a diplomat but not on the other side, it’s more on the, on the day to day stuff really. And it’s based in, erm, Sloane Square. I think it’s still there now. So yeah. So we lived in Fulham originally for that about first… trying to remember… five, six years of our lives—of my life I should say—and then we moved to Southfields in, in again in South London as well. And we stayed there until ’83, which is when we moved to, erm, East London.

Oh right.

And again it’s ‘cos my father transferred, erm, his job, ‘cos he was brought into what’s called then the British Gas Board. And he was an accountant in their department, and the work changed so he expectant, so we came to live in East London. And it was a culture shock coming to East London [Laughs] It’s very different from South London.

So what were the differences?

I think in terms of… I mean there is an Asian community in South London, but it wasn’t as concentrated as when we moved into Manor Park. Erm, I hadn’t seen so many Asian people in that environment before apart from when we used to go shopping at the weekends or something like that, so that way, seeing all the shops and everything, erm, the neighbours… It, it was, it was a bit of a culture shock growing up in quite a white environment and then coming to something that was very mixed as well. Erm, so I was just the last couple of months of my degree when we moved to East London, so it wasn’t too bad the journey back and forward for a couple of months, and then after that it was just looking for work and things like that, so as I said my growing up was all in South London but all my working life has been in East London.

So did you go to university in London as well then?

Yeah, it was called the Roehampton Institute. Erm, it’s, er, a teacher training college, but it also did other degrees. Originally I thought I was gonna be a teacher. After six weeks I thought, ‘I can’t control children’—I’m not a control freak—then I went on to do sociology and education as a combined degree. So if I did wanna go back to teaching, you know, afterwards as a post-grad student I could catch up quite quickly, but I thought, you know, all these thing about disciplining kids in the classroom back in the ‘80s—it was a whole different world back then.—It wasn’t as, as, as I’d say it so fluid as it is now, and I thought that wasn’t me. So I was more into community work. Erm, so I’ve always done community work as a result of that. So when I graduated I was unemployed for about six months. And during that time I actually, ‘cos I was in East London by now, I was looking for voluntary work so, as everybody does, you write to the local authority and go, ‘Have you got any volunteer jobs?’, and they, erm, redirected me to an Asian organisation that’s working with young people. And they were going to be doing a summer camp, so it was like, er, ‘Can you go and help there as a volunteer’. And, and I went there and I think, er, first within three weeks we’d organised a camping trip for sixty kids up at Debden [Laughs]. And they were all Asian children, which was, again, quite new to me as well, where it wasn’t mixed at all. Erm, so we did that, and then I think aft-, then I… Then I got some other voluntary work as a result of that with what was then called the Newham Council for Racial Equality, in Newham. And, again, there’d been quite a lot of racist attacks at the time, and I was being drawn into some of that with some of the work that I was doing in the community, I think, and the voluntary work, working with young people being picked up by the police. Erm, and, er, so I got involved with the Newham Council for Racial Equality as a volunteer again. So I think I volunteered with them for about three months before I got my first post, erm, which was in Redbridge. And I still kept on working with young people in the youth club. There was an Asian youth club that had been set up by the council, so I was doing some sessional work there, and it was mostly young men, and they had, erm, a group on Wednesdays which was for young Asian women, but it was still very new concept of having a youth club for Asian women. Erm, and these were young women who were still at school, er, between fourteen… I think they were fourteen to sixteen at that time. So it was once a week. We had, we’d had that XXXX [00:05:39] Asian, the girls worked there. And then I got my job in Redbridge with the, it was the, an organisation working with women and young irls. So it seemed quite a nice progression. And I worked there for a couple of years. Er, and then I came back to Newham… [Laughs]

[Laughs]

… and worked with the Citizen’s Advice Bureau, and doing… It was a new unit they set up to do community work as well as advise surgeries, and it was all about welfare rights and housing. And that was based in Canning Town at that time, in 1985, ’86, er, eighty-, no… ’84… ’84, sorry. ’84? I’m using my… ’84, ’85, yeah, that’s right. Erm, and Canning Town at that time was very different to what it is now. It was a quite racist area. And we were in, above an advice centre right at the top of the roundabout where—I don’t know if you know Barking Road—where the Canning Town station is. It’s just there: past Community Links and Anchor Trust, but they… It used to be… you know, sometimes you’d leave like six o’clock thinking, ‘Mmm, maybe I should’ve left a bit earlier.’ Especially in winter, ‘cos you’d get a few comments and things like that. But, again, it’s about that resilience and that support, really, that you had around you. So I worked there for a few years, erm, and then I came to work back for another voluntary organisation called Eastwoods Trust. And that was working with As-, Asian elders. And I also worked for community links;’ I did part time initially at both places. And Community Links, again, it was around advice and information service. So, erm, I did quite a lot of young girls’ work and women’s work there as well.

What was it like making the shift from working with young girls and women, to working with elders?

It, it was, erm… I wasn’t sure what to expect [Laughs] because apart from my parents there were not older people around us who I would say were in their sixties or seventies. So, apart from coming across people maybe when you’re shopping I really didn’t have any contact with older people. So it was quite… Again, it was another shock, culture shock in many ways, ‘cos you’re working with a whole different age group. Erm, and, and then it was looking at, er, a lot, for a lot of them, English wasn’t their first language, so although I speak Urdu and Hindi I didn’t speak it as fluently back then, ‘cos I hardly ever used it: I spoke English all the time. So, you know, I had to learn quite a lot of the language in conversations and discussions with them. So, in many way ways, you could see it as like a learning partnership really! [Laughs]

[Laughs]

So I think that helped quite a bit. But in terms of the needs of older people, you know, I could see they were very similar to working, when you’re working with young people in terms of not getting support and services. But, again, being Asian elders, it was this whole thing about not feeling part of society, that you’d just been discarded by your own families. Because the expectation then was that you’d be looking after, looked after by family or relatives as you grew older. And a lot of them, when Eastwoods, when I worked there, was only one scheme at the time for men. It was nine bedsits, and they were, most of them were seventies and above, erm, and a lot of them had been originally from East Africa. So they’d come over when Idi Amin, erm, er, you know, there was this big exodus because he didn’t want Asian people in the country. So they came and a lot of them knew India and Pakistan, but they hadn’t really grown up there. Their home was actually East Africa. So they was having quite a culture shock. So for me, working with older men from a wholly different environment, it took me a while. I was a development worker there; I was there for about six years. And, and, erm, but I think, again, because of the community work angle, it was all about welfare rights, housing, legal… I t was like a natural progression in many ways as well. And there were a lot of issues around racism at the time in terms of housing as well: trying to get housing if you’re an older person. There were lots and lots of difficulties there. So linking up with organisations that worked in the borough. For instance we had Newham Monitoring Project, we had Shack East London, which was a housing organisation which merged into Shelter which works a lot with vulnerable people and homeless people. So there was about four or five different organisations that we used to work with around trying to get services for, for different communities, particularly Asian, African, Caribbean communities. So, you know, again, Asian elders were in Newham, Asian community was in Newham, but it’s very different to what it is now. I mean, Green Street I remember there were just two, one boutique, one Asian boutique and that was it, and one grocery store. Manor Park had a little bit more. The rest were just ordinary chains really, er, er, and lots of white grocery stores as I would call it. So, having seen that change and Asian elders working along that, it, it, it was quite different.

When did that change sort of happen on Green Street?

I think in the… Let’s see: when I was… Around in the mid-‘80s you could actually see that changing. Erm, and you could see in terms of jewellery shops that started, you know, coming [Laughs] so people got money. But food and restaurants, they were the main things. Clothes it seemed to come a little bit later, but they, that was in the mid-‘80s, erm, seeing that change. But with Boleyn, the Upton Park, where West Ham used to be, you used to have that there as well, and a few pubs that were quite racist at the time as well. And the national Front used to come down. So there was quite a lot of street mobilisation going on and defending people’s rights to walk down the street on football days, and not having, you know, racist comments made at them, erm, particularly at any time, whenever you go, even now, erm, you know, the pubs are there, if there’s an overflow onto the streets, but, you know, a lot of the time people don’t say anything. But there was quite a lot and it was quite difficult. So I think a lot of businesses kept away for a long time because of that, but I think as the population started increasing in terms of Asian, the needs were there, you could actually see the change in the number of shops and the kinds of shops that actually started coming up. Erm, and now I think there’s only one pub left on Green Street [Laughs] It’s there were the Queen’s Market is. The other ones have actually closed. Actually, the whole of Green Street I think that’s the last one there. And I think although the Asian communities do drink, they don’t tend to do it so much in pubs in the same way as some, some other communities do. And, plus, I think for the price you can get from supermarkets it’s a lot cheaper as well. So there’s lots of different issues around that when pubs closing as well. Er, and, and, erm, I think, you know, with, with SubCo and Eastwoods Trust and the other organisation I worked with the council as well, erm, I’ve always had that interest in community work. So when I left Eastwoods Trust it was actually to go and work for the council as a race equality officer, again because of all the experiences I’d had working with older people but also other age groups as well. It was, the idea was around, erm, looking at how service could be provided for BME communities, but also, erm, how to challenge racism in housing and in services both from staff as well as service users. So the whole, the whole laying of the, because there were six of us at a time where we had different remits around what we did. And I did older people and adults in terms of residential and day care. And it was also about how you recruit staffs and retain them to work with Asian elders in homecare situations, and the racism that used to come from staff to Asian elders and back again. So we used to have to deal with all of that and have… Er, we used to… I’m trying to remember: I think they called racist harassment panels in those days. And it was around, as I said, around services or staffing or other service users making comments, and having to investigate that. But also doing a lot of training and support work with existing staff about the importance of needing to change, but also around people helping them to understand different needs of different communities. So if you’re going into homecare, going into some homecare or to help, you know, certain, you know, erm, ways you would, you would, er, address and treat individuals, of things you need to take into consideration, and the fact that they were Asian didn’t mean that everyone was the same. You have lots of different religions, different languages, different dietary needs. And if you’re doing something so personal as that, you had to understand that. So we used to do a lot of training as part of our role as well.

Were the staff quite receptive to that training?

We had a mixture! [Laughs] It was very hard work, erm, because, also, it was something that’s coming down from the council, it’s comeing from the unions, that it had to happen because we were living in a multicultural society. And a lot of the staff that were home help particular in those days and worked in residential and day care were white and Irish, erm, erm, particularly women; there was a majority of women in care work. And, obviously, there were some who had that colour-blind approach—‘everybody’s the same’—but other’s it was like, ‘They’re taking over.’ And, you know, when you have accusations made you’d have to look into that. So there was quite a lot of resistance in terms of, ‘Who do we think they are coming in and telling them how to do their work?’ Erm, but I think… I mean I had to XXXX [00:15:39] I had residential and day-care, so I was at that quite high level needs I would say, I mean and the others were doing children and, and people with learning disabilities and mental health, so there was some cross-over but, but because you had people living in certain schemes, seven days a week, day in and day out, their needs had to be met in a certain way, and then it was, it was getting the staff along to do that. And I think where we succeeded I would say is where the managers were supportive of what was trying to be achieved in Newham. It’s where the managers weren’t supportive that there were issues. And, and that, unfortunately, led with a couple of managers to, to be investigated and HR was involved, you know Human Relations all those sorts of things and warnings about they had to change their styles and make it more open and receptive. But, even then, in the service in, in the council Black and Asian elder, er, staff weren’t staying. They had a very through, you know, there’d be there for a few months or a year then they’d be gone. And it’s because of the resistance they have from colleagues and also managers as well. So that was a big, big issue. And that led, I think, to the council looking at how to work with voluntary and private sector where needs could be met in a different way, and where staff could be retained to provide services. So in one, in one way I started the work in, erm, the council around that. And it’s not just me, it was the whole team. And there were some very sympathetic council officers and workers, right through senior management. But it did mean that there was a big change going on at the time, and also, around that time, the NHS Community Car Act came in, where there was a big drive again service users were being provided in the community for the community, and that cultural and religious needs had to be met. And so there was quite a lot of pressure and drivers for the council to do something. And they had to do that through our… whether it’s children adults or older people. Erm, and I think because of the… I suppose in many ways that some of our background was in housing in Newham, and working with older people, when they did have an amount of funding to set up services for older people it seemed actual that something like SubCo came into being. Because when we tried to, as I said, tried to retain staff within the council, tried to provide services for elders in the council, it was very, very difficult. So a lot of the time families would say and elders would say, ‘We don’t want the service from the council.’ They’d start and then they’d go away because of the racism they were facing. Or, you know, both, overtly but also covertly as well, and also institutional racism as well because people weren’t meeting their needs. And if you’re quite frail and you’ve got high level needs it’s, it’s like, it feels like a battle that you’re never winning to get services. And I think it’s bad enough for any community, but when you don’t have, you know, when you’ve got additional issues around the aging process, erm, happening earlier in Black and Ethnic Minority communities—there’s a lot of evidence to show that—people would just like withdraw from services, so there was no safety net. And the only time they came back in contact was when there were crises. So the council… So with this building, for instance, and I was working at the council at the time, this was, was, er, funded by the then Greater London Council, the GLC, at the time, and there used to be an Asian senior citizen organisation here, and the council also gave bits of funding as well. But I think there was this whole thing about misuse of funding, so everything was taken away. And the council then had about seventy-, I think about seventy-six-thousand pounds to set up a service for Asian elders. And it was like, ‘Ooh! Dreams come true!’ [Laughs] Almost, you know. And, and the idea was to look at, ‘cos remember for many years there was what’s called an Asian elders consultative group made up of different communities working with Asian elders, and a lot of the unmet needs have been identified, some of which I’ve spoken about already. But there was something about having an, an organisation that wasn’t based on religious grounds in Newham, because, again, any services that were around were based on religion. So trying to have something that was for everyone was quite a new concept. Erm, and with this funding XXXX [00:20:19] got some really good idea. ‘cos you know we were talking about it and everyone hammering away for a long time. And so for a whole year, erm, they set up a consultative group to decide on what services were needed for this new organisation. So there’s, you know, so the steering group was made up of community leaders what they called at the time, council officers, councillors, older people themselves—so they were able to fashion what was going to be the original SubCo…

MmmHmm.

… which was about, erm, providing services for Asian elders in the community. Ern, and then, also, looking at how you work with frail elders. But they thought the first thing, let’s start with one thing, and having things like luncheon clubs started off with two workers, and providing, you know, ten, twelve people initially. A lot of it was drop-in services. Although there was a minibus available to bring some of the frail elders in, a lot of people used to make their own way for the first couple of years. And I think, because of the development work that happened in the first two years, and getting branded in the community, you know, social services noticed—and I was there at the time—that we were getting more referrals from the Asian community because it seemed like, you know, people knew there was somewhere to go now that they felt comfortable. Word of mouth, all those sorts of things: it happened. And then SubCo started working with frailer elders as well, people who were recovering from strokes, people who had some confusion maybe and physical disabilities, but not dementia or anything at that stage. Erm, and then…

Sorry, just to…

Yeah?

… back-track a bit, was it easy to, kind of, draw these different religious communities together and…

Right, yeah…

… provide for their needs?

Yeah, I think that there’s was that whole year of thrashing all of that out, and that’s why I think some, some of the organisation slowly came in as they were represented, like the local Gurdwara or the Hindus or the Mosque, they came in to explore on when they were on the committee about ‘What is this organisation going to look like? Is it going to be a threat for us?’ And there was some resistance, erm, from the, erm, some of the communities in Newham, because they felt it was going to be set up as a Muslim organisation, and, again, that’s because of my involvement, because I was working for the local authority then as well, er, and I was a Muslim woman in the borough, but I wasn’t covering at the time. I didn’t used to wear the hijab at the time, but I was still seen as a threat. And I think because of their own views of how they set up organisations, it’s like you say it’s one thing, but it’s actually something else. So they, lot of them, felt it was particularly it was particularly from the Hindu community at the time, and it was the right-wing Hindu community for the BJP, which is very similar to National Fonrt. So it wasn’t I would call, I would say the Hindu community as a whole, it was a particular faction that was saying, ‘No! Subco’s going to be set up as a Muslim organisation, and Taskin is, you know, not going to be letting any of us in!’ Although at the time, I didn’t work for, for SubCo, as I said, I worked for the local authority. And, and because of those accusations, as the first year was coming to the end where they had all the consultations and how they’re going to set up the new organisation, it was decided that the organisation was going to be a charity to the limited company. So in order for that to happen you had to have what’s called an inaugural general meeting where you elect a new committee. And these factions went to the chief executive at the council back then and to the director of social services. They were making so much noise, saying the, the, ‘The elections are going to be rigged! All Muslims are going to be’, you know, er, ‘brought in onto the committee and they’re gonna set Muslim organisation!’ And, although the director of social services, Deborah Cameron, and the chief exec, whose name will come to me in a little while, they knew that wasn’t the case but they had to make sure that everything was transparent, so the actual chief exec actually oversaw the elections for the first, erm, meeting, at the first meeting. Erm, and it was… And this was unheard of, that, actually, the chief executive of a local authority actually coming in to oversee the elections with the director of social services and the deputy director, because, again, they wanted to show whatever happened on the day, it was nothing to do with me [Laughs] who was heavily pregnant at the time as well! [Laughs] Erm, and, and, and there was some questions asked at the meeting, ’cos obviously I was at the meeting about, ‘How do we know that this, these elections are fair and transparent? How do we know that it’s not returning to a Muslim organisation?’ So people in those days were very up front about saying that. Erm, and then people had stood for the elections, it was a very mixed community; you had people of Sikh background, Hindu background, Muslim background, and the different factions within that. Erm, and it was a new committee was elected, and then it was uop to them, then, to, you know, confirm that it’s not going to be a Muslim organisation. And also, as I said, because of first time an organisation had money before they came into being—it had been allocated—so it’s normally the other way round: you’d have an organisation then applies for funding. So people… That’s why I think people thought the money was, you know, going to be syphoned off, you know, all these religious causes for Muslims and things. So, again, it was a very difficult first two years, I think, for, for the committee to get its feet together. There was quite a lot of, erm, infighting. I think some of the people that you’ll be interviewing who were there from the beginning, they’ll probably know more about that because I was an employee at the council so I don’t know… Well, I know in terms of hearsay, but I was actually at those meetings and what they had to do to toe the line and all those sorts of things. Erm, so, so there was, it was brought, it was bought, it was born [Laughs], you know, in, in, in, in a time, in a climate, in the ‘90s really, where things in terms of racism were still quite high, but then you had the internal prejudices from, you know, Asian communities. Again, that was very difficult to deal with as well. Erm, and the interesting thing: the first two workers happened to be Muslim [Laughs], which was really interesting, and that was nothing to do with me, and one of them was female and she was quite open that she was a lesbian as well, so, again, there was quite of a lot of stereotypes were being blown out the window, so it, it was quite, you know, interesting to see that. Erm, and then, I think within about eighteen months we were able to get funding for a volunteers co-ordinator for, for SubCo as well, who was, erm, Chinese. Erm, ‘cos one of the things when SubCo was set up it was seen as Asian community as in far east. I know in America they say Asian to mean like, you know, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese… So SubCo at that time was very much around that as well. So two days had been put aside by the council as, as for Chinese elders. And so the, it was, that’s where it was quite good mix to have that actually within the staff team in initially. And, and it was a good partnership in terms of, er, working together, but also having separate identities at the same time. And, and, and then with all the, as I was saying before with the NHS Community Care Act, saying that services now needed to have provided in the community, and the best places were, er, voluntary organisations who could be skilled up to deliver. But, again, we, we also had the issue with organisations like SubCo where you didn’t have skilled workers who were Asian, who had qualifications to work in this sector because they never saw it as a career. A lot of them saw, felt at that time that it was very downgrading, you know, to go to do a job to go into somebody’s house and clean, or you come to a centre and you’re looking after elders and you’re doing personal care. They found that very diffi-, very difficult concept. So, at SubCo, initially, there was quite a lot of work done, I would say, in the first five years trying to change that around, and that happened as the needs of peoples changed as well, when they needed higher levels of care, and getting people to get qualifications. So at that, you know, originally people came in without qualifications, but while they were in SubCo they were able to get the qualifications that were required at the time, and then obviously since then there’s all, there’s a whole raft of qualifications people can go for. But also people began seeing it as a career, coming to work with older people. Because in the Asian community people were working with young people, but no one ever worked with older people. So even trying to get that in as a career was quite difficult. So, you know, we did link up with local schools and colleges and adult education classes, and people would come in and do placements, say, ‘Yes, possibly could be a career’. And then on top of that we had issues around, erm, personal care: male-to-male, female-to-female. So initially, erm, under the Race Relations Act you, you could actually employ people of particular ethnic origin who meet the cultural personal care needs of older people. Erm, and so you could, you know, under Section 52D you could do that under the Race Relations Act, you could actually recruit people into those posts, which is what we did. But the other issue we had was that men didn’t want to have personal care from women, Asian men, and the Asian women didn’t want it from men, because they saw it as invading on their privacy. So for a long time we had male only and female only, erm, but it was very hard to recruit males [Laughs]…

Mmm.

… into care work. So, initially, again, a lot of people didn’t need too much personal care. It’s as the men grew older it became more of an issue. Erm, and we were able to recruit some, some younger men in those roles and then get the qualified. But it took a long time, I would say it took five, six years to break through that. And, and trying to get men to accept the fact that a younger Asian woman could actually do some personal care, and the same for women where men. ‘Cos there’s a whole thing in their minds about sexual abuse and things like that, so we understood all that, but, at the same time, sometimes it just wasn’t possible. We physically couldn’t recruit people. So what we used to do is, erm, you know, volunteers, erm, from the management committee members who we trusted to do certain things, they would come in and support when, because they were this, because a lot of volun-, a lot of the management committee used to live locally as well, so you could come and do that. but that wasn’t a long term solution: it was just in the short term. And I think once people started trusting the organisation and the ethos and the principals, then we could see the change. Then they started accepting some of it. Even now, you know, we still always make sure that it’s the individual’s preference, so ninety-nine percent of the time it will be male-to-male, female-to-female, but it’s not one hundred percent because of depending what’s happening on that day, who’s sick, who’s in on work. But, again, people are, you know… Oh, I was saying in the last ten, fifteen years: ‘You’re like my daughter, you’re like my granddaughter.’ So that whole concept of sexualisation that has gone out the window. So you actually saw them as a family member who’s actually supporting them, and that’s the way we’ve tried to play it at SubCo for many years. And they say we’re like a surrogate family in order to provide the care that we do.

And I guess you’ve built up these sort of closer relationships as you’ve been working with these service users.

Yes, yes, over years, you know, ‘cos, again, sometimes people came in quite healthy, it was more about depression and loneliness, but over ten, fifteen years, their health deteriorates and they need more personal care. So they have that trust there. So even though staff may change, they still have that trust in SubCo. And also we don’t have a high staff turnover rate, which is really good. So you know people tend to be here five, six, ten, fifteen years. Maybe more. Erm, so, again, you know, even though that person who comes in new may not know the staff, they get the reassurance from other service users about how we’ll work with them. So I think that makes a lot of difference really in terms of that. So even though SubCo was set up, we still had to campaign very hard for the rights of Asian elders in terms of how assessments were done by social workers, by GPs, by district nurses, and sitting on panels where you actually had influence of how the forms should be collated, what information you could go into there. And, again, I think it helped because I had that social services background when I came into SubCo. So having worked on both sides, I could see the issues on both sides, and I think because of that I was able to probably get into quite, erm, senior meetings, and trying to influence some of that change: not just for SubCo but for elders in general really in the community. And building up strong links with African-Caribbean community organisations as well as Age… Newham… Age Concern Newham it used to be called then; now it’s called Age UK East London. But, you know, all the different groups there would became more of a, erm, er, campaigning group in many ways for rights of older people, whether it’s housing, health, social care, leisure. It’s trying to make sure that services were available for Asian elders. And the language issues and the barriers that were all there. So trying to work with all those, and, I mean, I’ve seen… There’s been a lot of change over the last twenty-five years. Yeah, twenty-five years, in terms of where we were. As I was saying, back in the early ‘90s to where we are in 2018. We are still struggling in certain issues, but it’s, it’s, it’s a different type of battle now. It’s more around resources. In those days the resources were there, but it was the understanding wasn’t there. And here you’ve got a bit of both now. Erm, so even, even today when we’re doing, er, assessments for people to come in to SubCo, we’re happy to carry them out because the social workers haven’t done the right assessments: they’ve gone in, they’ve done an assessment, but somehow they’ve missed so much information around that individual. And it may’ve been because they didn’t take an interpreter in, or it may be, which is sometimes the case, the elders and families say, ‘We can do this things’, because… or, ‘We can’t do anything!’ So you’ve got lots of things XXXX [00:33:53] there, and also to the experiences of the social workers as well. Erm, so, where, where we’ve seen that in terms of health and social care and how it’s changed, it’s, it’s a constant change going on, erm, with how services are provided, how people are assessed, how the, er, and how they’re funded. So again with SubCo originally we had grants from the local authority. So you’d get grants, apply for them four times a year, the money was there, you’d do reports. And based on all of that you’d get the next call to grants. Then the government changed the, the emphasis on grants and said it had to go to contracts. And then that’s when you saw lot of the voluntary organisations actually becoming more suspicious of each other. Because when it was grants it was you… This is the need, this is what I get the money for. But with the contracts culture you’re actually competing against each other in more of a business model. And, before, we also used to sit on each other’s management committees to support each other. But with the contracts culture that came in, it was all about intelligence and people not being able to share that. So, so you could actually see that it started disintegrating, the voluntary sector, because people were becoming more competitive in a business model.

When, when did that change sort of…?

This happened around… Let’s see… towards the beginning of 2000. And so it was, it was, er, it was, erm, a shift from grants and then suddenly you could see saying, ‘No. You’ve got to meet certain standards if you’re going to go for contracts. It was much, much, much more difficult. So with grants you had to do an application form, you had to do budgets and job descriptions, that was fine, but now were asked to be using like business models, and voluntary organisations weren’t used to doing that, and doing what was called full cost recovery. So you had to claim everything back. And it wasn’t all about good will, it was about charges, all those sorts of things. So in, in, in, in the end of ‘90s, beginning of 2000 you saw that changing. The voluntary sector how it worked with each other started changing as well, and people started going in different directions and not sharing information. So the lobby we used to do as groups at the council became very individualised. Erm, and with the contracts, by 2005—I know when we got the first contract for day care—erm, it was so competitive that people stopped talking to each other! [Laughs] Erm, because you had to, literally… ‘cos, ‘cos, again, you had to literally fight each other for it, if, in terms of unit cost. So you could justify with your overheads how much you’d be charging the council per individual. Some organisations just couldn’t get their heads round that. And, luckily for us, because we’d already been doing day care (and to quite a frail client group) we, we, we were aware of those costs. Other organisations thought we were making it up, er, and it’s what, and actually what we put in is what the council actually wanted, in their minds, wanted to fund more or less. Erm, but it also became very restrictive, er, and lots of voluntary organisations, you know, if you’ve got a group today fifty, sixty people can walk in no problem, with contracts, if you say it’s twenty-five, your maximum is twenty-five, health and safety records, all those sorts of issues, but also they will only pay for those individuals, erm, and, and so the way people had to think was very, very different, Erm, and they also tried to develop partnerships with, erm… So they wanted a more integrated approach. So they didn’t want SubCo there, an African-Caribbean organisation there, and a White service organisation there. So part of the contract in 2005, when we had to bid, was that we would operate from what was the day centre at Chargeable Lane at the time, which was one of the bigger day centres for older people, erm, and how would we work together. So we had to put in bids about that. But, you know, you had social services centre had all the facilities. Afro-Caribbean community was given one room, SubCo was given another room. And, and then, you know, and you were in that part of the building, everybody else was over there, so it was like, ‘Okay, you want us to work together, but you’re putting us, you know, in different parts of the, erm, different parts of the centre?’ And plus you had to eat and do all of your activities in the same room, so where was the integration going on? So, again, we had to work really hard at SubCo to work, trying to work with elders through events and parties and activities, and, and, again, African-Caribbean community were doing the same. So we had a much better, erm, dialogue going on, erm, and I had some with the senior managers from the social services part of day care, but at the, erm, ground level there was a lot of friction, racism there as well. This was 2005 ‘til about 2009 that we were there. And so under the contract we could operate… Originally, they wanted us to operate four days from that centre, and one day at SubCo. And, but we were able to negotiate two days here and three days there. So that was a minefield in itself. And it, and it… And at that time it was just the day care part of it, wasn’t all the other projects. So we then had to develop projects for, erm, the needs that were not being met, because you could only go to the day centre if you had certain needs as well within Chargeable Lane, whereas here it’s a bit more flexible. And all the sort of, there they were very rigid, you know? If you wanted to go to the toilet you weren’t allowed to go to the toilet on your own…

MmmHmm.

… in their centre, and we disagreed with that totally. We said, ‘No! People are grown up. If they want to go and they can go on their own they need to people able to go on their own. If they need support that’s a whole different area. But how can…?’ ‘We see your elders wandering around!’ ‘They’re not wandering around, they’re going to the toilet!’ [Laughs] And they weren’t allowed to go into the garden on their own. You know all those sorts of issues? Staff had to always be present.

Did that sort of bureaucracy come in as part of, erm, the sort of post 2000…

Yes it was. And it was also around people very much risk averse. They weren’t, in terms of risk assessment, taking risks. So, you know, if a person went into the garden, were they capable? You had to do a risk assessment. And how many staff you’d have to need to be present if they wanted to do that. The same if they wanted to smoke. All those sorts of things. Erm, and everything had to happen in the centre, and at SubCo we’d been so used to doing things in the community, going on trips, going on, erm, if an organisation is having an open day, if elders were interested organising that with our minibus, taking people out, coaches to seasides and things like that. They never did that in local authority day centres. So, again, that was very difficult for them, because they, they, the service users would know that we’re going away and would want to come along, but somebody might fall, something might happen… They never used to go anywhere. I think they did some pub lunches but by the time we got them that, even that stopped. Erm, but then what we were able to work with activity with the dementia unit, ‘cos we were able to, er, have a dialogue with them to… If they had any, you kow, service users who wanted to go on trips, we would work with their staff to come and do that. So there was a risk involved, but it’s SubCo’s risk in many ways. And as a result of that we started working with the dementia unit, because what they found, again, was that they weren’t getting referrals of Asian elders into the dementia unit. So there were lots of discussions with senior managers in SubCo about if we could second staff into the dementia unit and work around that. Erm, so when Asian elders came in they could see Asian staff.

Mmm.

Why didn’t they recruit Asian staff per se in their normal…? But they didn’t. They didn’t even try to recruit. So we had a good partnership for two, three years that we were funded to do that. But, again, you could, but, again, I think the practices between the voluntary sector and the statute was too diverse. Erm, it was too difficult so it led to more friction. So when we tried to set up… Well, we did set up a stroke project with the local, with that centre as well. The way they wanted to operate it and the way we operated was very, very different. Theirs was very controlling. It’s a bit like, I was saying at the beginning, being in a classroom, having to be a teacher. You’ve got to do things in a certain way. It was like there was nothing left to individualising to what that individual’s need was. It was more about what I was saying for the organisation. You might get sued. All those were back of their minds. And in many ways it wasn’t, I don’t think it was the staff, it was their fault. It was more about inherent what the local authority brings down as well. So there was lots of tensions about how you run services. So that was brewing and then, and then the crunch came, [Laughs] as these things do, when an allegation was made of one, about one of our staff who worked in the, erm, the dementia unit at Chargeable Lane, that she was a terrorist. And it was like… And this individual had been working there for about a year-and-a-half, maybe two years she was working. Great relationships with all the staff, used to take them home in her car, whatever, and, and again, this stuff that I’m talking about I think it’s all in the background and all this, you know, setting up the stroke project, and all of a sudden, you know there was an allegation made. And I remember because we at SubCo had gone out for a meal, all the staff team, and I kept getting these phone calls in the evening ‘cos we were all fasting at the time we were going to be opening our fast. It was Ramadan. So at eight o’clock the senior manager ringing me, and I thought, ‘That’s… Why’s he ringing? Why’s he ringing?’ I, I, you know, ‘I’ll sort it out when I go home.’ But after about five missed calls, voicemails, it was about nine o’clock at night when I got home, and it was like, ‘Taskin I need to see you tomorrow. It’s urgent!’ ‘What is it about?’ ‘I can’t tell you over the phone. You have to come and see me first thing tomorrow morning.’ But I said, ‘Can you just give me any indication?’ ‘No I can’t. You’ve got to come and see me.’ And he ran the whole of, er, adult social services at the time, so it wasn’t just for older people. And I was thinking… And we had a very good relationship. So I went in, he says, ‘Do you know an allegation’s been made?’, and I said, ‘Excuse me? Of what kind?’, ‘That one of your staff is a terrorist!’ I nearly went, ‘What the ‘F’?!’ [Laughs] I did say that actually! ‘What the fuck?!’ [Laughs] He goes… I said, ‘Sorry! Sorry!’ I said, ‘What did you say?’ He goes, ‘An allegations been made by…’ I said ‘Who made it?’ They wouldn’t even tell us who it, who’d made it, or who it was against, initially, and what the evidence was. And I… You know it was like a shock thing going on, thinking, ‘What’s going on?’ And I said, ‘Well I need…’ I said, ‘Before I can have any more discussion with you, I need to talk to my management committee. Also we need to know who’s making the allegations or what the allegations are at least if they, if they’ve got to be anonymous. We need to know that. And then we can take action.’ So had to have… So we couldn’t work out why, who this… At that time we didn’t know it was this particular staff member. We were just so flabbergasted. And then this… Within forty-eight hours we got the information that it was this particular member of staff, and it’s a senior member of staff making the allegation, which was reported to her. ‘Can we have the date, the time, what it was about?’ ‘No. But she may refer it to the terrorist police.’ And they didn’t have whatever they’re called XXXX [00:48:22] at the time, all of that, just they were called, you know… The anti-terrorist squad it would be.

MmmHmm.

But I said, ‘How are you… We don’t even know what it’s all about!’ So when they gave the name of the person, we spoke to her, er, and said, ‘Well what’s all this?’ She said, ‘I don’t understand!’ She goes, ‘Yeah, I might be a bit different ‘cos I’ve been on a pilgrimage to Mecca, I’ve come back, I’m a little bit quieter than normal, plus it’s Ramadan, we’re all fasting, er, and that’s all.’ So this is all… Try to get it dealt with in forty-eight hours. And then the other thing happened was, they said, ‘Oh she made… Oh she’s made comments’, when they were having a discussion group. What’s the discussion about? The Sun newspaper—why they had the Sun in chargeable Lane I do not understand—they had discussions about papers and what’s in the news, and I think, at the time, there were some front pages about, they’d said, ‘Terrorist having babies!’ No: ‘An Asian man’s having babies because he wants his children to grow up as terrorists to fight the problems in Iraq, you know, Afghanistan and Palestine’. And they were having a discussion, and I think she said, ‘What I said was, I can understand why he’s saying that. I don’t agr-…’ She didn’t… She’s not very articulate, so that’s… More or less that’s what she said, she said, ‘That’s what I said. I can understand why he’s saying that.’ She didn’t say ‘I’m… I agree’, you know? ‘He’s a terrorist and I’m doing that’. They also said that she refused to work with non-Muslim people on the rota. Well, apart from her there wasn’t anyone else. So who would she be working with? And she was very quiet.

Yeah.

Er, and then she’d also made a comment about Bin Laden, ‘cos this was the Bin Laden era. So we got all these statements from her. She said, ‘Well, what happens is some… My brother came in to, erm, work. He has a beard. He sat in the staff room and somebody said, ‘Ooh! Are you a terrorist!’’—member of staff—and she goes, ‘No, they’re not. That’s my brother! Why would you say that?’ And then she said, ‘Oh sometimes when my dad’s walking down Walthamstow—because he looked like Bin Laden, tall thin—people would say, ‘Oh, are you Osama Bin Laden.’’ That’s what it was about. That was the conversation. So we… So once we’ve got these facts together, we said, ‘Right we’re leaving Chargeable Lane. There’s no way SubCo is staying there.’ Erm, and he said, ‘No, no, no, you must stay. Give us a couple of weeks. We’ll look into it.’ We said, ‘No. We’re going to leave.’ Now, unfortunately what happened at the same time, my, one of my sons, my oldest son, he caught meningitis and he was hospitalised at Newham, and he was on life support for three weeks. This was all happening at the same time. Erm, and then what happened was, ‘cos I…This started and I was obviously over there at Newham in intensive care, didn’t know if he was going to live or die. And they management committee, they… And I was part of the discussions, you know, over the phone ‘cos I couldn’t leave the hospital, was that we’re going to withdraw from our services and come back to SubCo, but providing five days a week from SubCo until the issues are resolved. Erm, And that they would inform social services. Now, what happened was [Laughs] it wasn’t, it was the staff, they would withdraw the services, then they told the council, whereas with me I would’ve done it the other way round. I’d say, ‘We are leaving now. We’ve told you we’re going. On such a date we’re going’, and then there was a big hoo-ha safeguarding. They tried, the staff there, tried to say, ‘Look! They’re taking everybody away! You don’t know what! They’ve got terrorists working for them! Anything could happen to them. They could blow us all up!’ This was the sort of… This was the feedback I was given from the senior manager, so… You know, we had a meeting with the elders, we had a meeting with their families, we had a meeting with staff—had to keep coming in and out for those—and just saying, ‘This is the situation: we’re moving back. At, we just had… At that point we just had allegations being made against one of our staff, that until we’re satisfied that it’s been investigated we’re not going back to Chargeable Lane.’ ‘Cos we were also worried it would hit the papers, especially the Recorder locally. You know, it could be leaked! Erm, so we brought everybody back, and I’m getting these calls, and then they said, ‘We ned to have a meeting, Taskin, with you, with all the senior managers and, erm, your chairperson.’ And I’m saying, ‘But I can’t come at the moment. I’m actually in intensive care with my son. Cannot anybody else go?’ ‘No. You have to be there.’ So I’ve… I had to come out and, er, obviously I was quite emotional at the time as well, but, you know, I was calm. And it’s like ‘Terrorism?! My son’s dying!’ Which one, you know, do you balance out? But, again, this is, again, SubCo, how people’s perceptions are going back to the Muslim organisation right at the beginning of when it set up. We know there’s all of those things are being dragged out. But when we had the meeting they wanted, you know, I went to the, they did it in the evening for me because, you know. But at least, you know… And then literally went there then went back to the hospital. But we covered everything. We said, ‘This is the allegation that’ve been made’, luckily hadn’t gone to the police at that point, ‘Erm, this is what we’ve investigated. This is, you know…’ We gave them a, you know, the statements and everything. We still did not get a statement from who the… a statement from social services, forget about the senior management. Just a paragraph to say these are the things, like three, four things. That was it. And they said, ‘Oh, we have to protect our source because they think they might be, erm, er, she might do something to them.’ I said, ‘But she’s the same person who’s been taking them home every day for the last year and a half. So if she was going to do something, she knows where they live. She would do it.’ And then it was like, ‘Oh no. It could be other people.’ ‘Okay, that’s fine, but you’ve got all the evidence from us. We do not feel safe about coming back to, erm, Chargeable Lane, and the management committee, and the services users, because if an allegation’s been made like this with almost no foundations, next time it could be around sexual abuse, sexual harassment, and it’s, it’s not the way to deal with it. If they had concerns with this individual we have joint supervision. I have joint senior management meetings. We’ve talked about everything else. Why did they not raise that with me at that level? ‘Oh Taskin, off the record we’ve got some concerns with this individual, we’re not, could you look into it?’ Nothing! Straight as an allegation onto yourselves. That is not what you call partnership working, so we can’t operate like that, so we’re taking our services back to SubCo.’ ‘No! No, no, no! You took them away without telling us and it’s a safeguarding…’ I said, ‘I’m sorry we admit…’ My chair said, I said, you know, ‘cos I was spokesperson, I said, ‘I’m sorry. We do take that on board. It was our mistake at SubCo. But as you can appreciate the situation with me personally….’ They all knew, you know, this is my situation. ‘And obviously, if I’d been involved, this is how I would’ve done it, and you know that. But, obviously everybody was panicking, and they weren’t getting any messages from yourselves about how to conduct anything. So they made the right decision, but they did it the wrong way round.’ So they… They, they accepted that actually. Er, and then, then it went on to a ‘What happens next?’, and we said, ‘We want these allegations to be withdrawn. If they’re not withdrawn, we may have to take it further, take legal advice. Because we’ve done our own investigation and there’s no foundations for it. We know what the comments were, what the context was. We want to know if they’re refuting any of that…’—which they hadn’t refuted—‘…that this is how it happened. So obviously those allegations have to be withdrawn.’ Erm, and they said, ‘We’ll have to look into this duh duh duh…’ And they went on, you know the normal spiel, ‘We’ll look into it, get back to you.’ And you know obviously I’d been talking to some councillors I’d, I’d known and explained the situation: ‘This is what’s happening because they need to know’. And they know who we are, they know me; there’s no way this could’ve happened. And if for any reason this person had been seen as a terror, we’d’ve dealt with it. There’s no way we... We would’ve dismissed her after doing the investigations, you know, or put her in suspension. But not then saying to us, ‘You cannot… You are not allowed to bring her into the, er, centre, which is…’ But, at one point, we understood: ‘You are not allowed to keep employing her at SubCo.’ We’re, we’re a separate organisation. ‘Yes, you’re welcome to Chargeable Lane, but you can’t tell us who to employ if you haven’t given us any evidence.’ And we also have our own HR (Human Relations), er, sub-, we subcontract it out—Peninsula—so, again, it’s not just us: we’re looking at employment law, making sure, you know, we’re following all the right things for her sake as well. Erm, and they said ‘No no no no: you’ve got to dismiss her.’ We said, ‘We’re not going to dismiss her. There is no, there’s no allegations that we can see that are substantiated. So we are all moving back to, to, to, to, to, erm, SubCo at Plashet Road. We do not want to operate from here no more.’ And that’s how we left the meeting, actually. Erm, so obviously they’ve had discussions amongst themselves. They know that we’re providing the services, ‘cos they can’t fault the services. The allegations that’ve been made can’t be substantiated, so they had to give in, because I think they were afraid it was going to be made public, because that would’ve been our next step. And obviously she would’ve, and we’d advised her and HR as well, gone to seek legal advice separate to SubCo. ‘Cos although you’re a member, there are certain things that we can do, but our hands are tied. As an individual you can take it in a different direction. So, as a result of all that, Health and Social Care partnership, working with local authority doesn’t work [laughs] in that setting. You know, all these intentions of, ‘We’re going to operate from the same centre’, unless you’re on the same, you have the same principles, it doesn’t work. As a result of that, they said, ‘Well, what we want to do,’ the council said, ‘We want to have meetings to talk about how we can resolve some of these issues, how we can get people working together again, organisations working together again.’ And, you know, then there was the thing about who were going to be the facilitators and the trainers to do that. And we identified some training, and local authority identified some. In the end we got a good package together. They walked out.

Mmm.

… at one point. Then we walked out another, ‘cos they kept trying to bring up the allegations around terrorism. And we said, ‘No. Unless you admit that this did not, you know, that there’s no case… How can we trust you? It’s all about trust, coming to work somewhere. How… As we said next time it could be a service user, their family, an elder, a staff member.’ So it just, it just disintegrated, all these thousand pounds the council spent times two trying to negotiate just didn’t work. And I think we, we, we did as much as we could, but I think we had to make a stand that we weren’t going to be able to work in that environment to try and meet the needs of Asian elders, especially those who are very frail and can’t speak for themselves. We’re their advocates, and we’re advocates for our staff as well. So, with that all happening in 200-and, er ‘8 and ‘9, ‘cos it carried on for about a, ‘cos you know it went over the year and stuff, we totally separated as a result of that, and we had five day services at SubCo and have thrived. [Laughs]

Were you worried what’d happen to the funding if part of it…

We did! I mean, I mean we were worried at certain points that the contract was going to be taken. ‘Cos at that time it was contract. It hadn’t gone to individual budgets. So we were worried that that funding was going to be withdrawn, erm, and that’s why we had to make sure that the elders and their family, once we knew what the allegations were, we were able… ‘Cos we’re very transparent: These are the issues, this is what’s happened, and it could be that our funding is taken away or reduced as a result, but, it’s not just a principle but in terms of how we operate at SubCo, we would try and oper-, carry on providing a service if they did take it away, and we wouldn’t leave you like that. So we had to reassure many people obviously… And staff, their jobs were on the line as well; all of our jobs—‘cos one contract goes, that was 80% of our funding at that time—we’d have a very reduced service here. I think we only had one project and that would literally that would literally be one person, that’s it that was funded. Erm, so once it had all been agreed by them, we had to have assurances that our funding wasn’t going to be… And it wasn’t cut, and it was actually extended for another two years. And then…

What was, what was the reaction of your service users or, and also like the nature of the allegation.

Well they… Everybody was shocked, they were totally shocked. They knew the individual involved as well, so everybody, you know whether it’s staff service users… Thank you [Refreshments brought in]… ‘She’s not like that! She’s the last person that you’d think’ [Laughs] But, again, you know, people… But they understood that you’ve gone on a religious pilgrimage, it does change you. You do become more thoughtful, you may not do things you used to for a short while and then you go back to doing them. [Laughs]

[Laughs]

But there is that change. You’re reflecting, you’re looking at yourself. But how that was linked to terrorism… It was, you know, as stupid a thing. And plus, elders said that if they didn’t know that individual they would come to us and ask us and we would’ve reassured them as well. So it was difficult [Coughs] but I think, as I said, it just made us stronger as a result of that. But the good things is that we had all our policies and procedures in place apart from a little bit of when they took, as I said, they took people away for telling the council, literally, it was like 24 hours, but that’s all it was. It was 24 hours. But, you know, we had everything in place and everybody was reassured they were still getting the same quality of services, if not better, ‘cos they were back home as they saw it. It was more in our control, everything. So it, it, it actually enhanced the service I feel like that more than actually… Although, that time period was really very fraught, but, you know, when you look at six months later, because we came out stronger at the other end, serv-, the council didn’t take away our funding. They didn’t even reduce it. It meant they did respect what we were saying and, and, and, you know, and the status of our organisation. But it was, you know, for a few, you know, for those few weeks at the beginning it was very hit and miss, but we had to stand our ground as an organisation. Erm, and in the end, yeah, a lot of it’s personal as well in terms of every member of staff, ‘This could happen to me, whether I’m, you know, Muslim or non-Muslim, this could be done to me, tomorrow!’ So it’s all about how we supported staff to see them through that as well. So contracts then started… I mean, I said you still have the yearly inspections with contracts, the council comes in, you know, they look at all the paperwork, the files, everything—got our inspection on Thursday again—and then, again, with the changes with governments and issues around health and social care, it was moving away from contracts even. Then the next big thing for SubCo was around, erm, moving from a contract to individual budgets, where service user decides where they wanted to spend their money. So not knowing, again, for a couple of years, er, er—no, six months actually—what was going to be happening around that. ‘Cos with contracts you, you, you win a tender, you get the contract, you invoice twice a year, and that’s it. And you’re inspected and all those sorts of things. With individual budgets it meant that every single service user had to be reassessed, asked what type of services they needed for themselves, who they wanted to put, them to provide it, whether it was homecare, personal care, out in the community, SubCo…. Could be anything. So we didn’t know if people would actually choose to stay with us, ‘cos now it was their choice. They get a budget, they can spend it how they like. And, and when we had the away day we said you could have your gold service, your silver service, or your bronze service, people…. ‘cos may decide they don’t want SubCo, they want something else. But in terms of costings how we work out how we employ staff, we need to have a minimum number of people coming in in order to survive as an organisation. So having lots of restructuring discussions with the staff team, with the elders, with the families, about ‘This is what the government is saying. This is the local authority’s doing. And this is what SubCo can or cannot do. If you decide you don’t want to stay with SubCo, SubCo will close. It’s, it’s, you know? ‘Cos you’re given the budget, not SubCo anymore. And then you can then spend it with us, but they don’t pay us directly. So, for seventy-odd people you would get that money, if you want SubCo to service you can manage the budget yourself, or you can ask Sub-, a local authority to manage it on your behalf, or a third party, but we can’t manage it ‘cos you’re buying that service from us.’ So if for, you know, for six months it was like, ‘Oh my God! They haven’t even done the assessments yet!’ And it’s coming to march and they’re going to start April the first, so badgering them and badgering, you know, ‘Can you do them?’ ‘cos people didn’t know, you know, if they were being assessed and if they could come. Because the criteria had changed where it was called critical and substantial need, so you had to be up here to get the service. So, again, we weren’t sure if people would meet that criteria, because there’s very strict criteria. And then we thought at least sixty percent definitely would, but we weren’t sure about the rest of them. And also with the unit costing, they said we’d only have a certain amount of money, which was £35 per head, but our costs are a lot higher, but that’s what they said, that’s all we got, so if people want to buy a service from you, the care, the transport has to all be included in that.

Is that for sort of one day?

One day, for one person [Coughs] whereas Chargeable Lane, the local authority, they were charging £70.

Wow!

Big difference! So, again, about, it was about being treated different as the voluntary sector and the statutory sector. And, again, we understood, overheads are higher, whatever. But they said, ‘No. At SubCo it’s £35 or nothing.’ So then that’s when we were doing lots of fund raising to look at where we go to meet the difference so we could keep that quality of service going. Because there would be no change in services per se, although we’d have to remodel it so it was more user-led. But we were doing all of the shopping trips, going out in the communities… We were doing that already, whereas a lot of the organisations, statutory services weren’t. So for us it wasn’t a big change, but the cost was. And also the fact that we, we need, erm, more staffing, because people had a higher level of need. So even if had they had dementia they said, ‘You can still only charge £35.’ But they may need two people. Again, if somebody needs personal care and a hoist, they need two members of staff. So costing that in was quite difficult. But as an organisation we spoke to staff, we spoke to elders, ‘Well go, we’ll go with that for now’, we decided, ‘But what we’ll have to do is then produce the evidence that the needs are higher, so we need to have more funding, so that means monitoring over six months and then going back. But, again, you know it was a real dilemma, because it’s personalisation, individual budgets, means the person has the right to choose where they go and what service they want, but the same time the local authority dictating the price, but it’s not in tangent with what other, what they’ll give you for the same… If somebody wanted to go to SubCo and they said seventy quid, they would be sent to Chargeable Lane. But if they wanted, you know, er, sorry… If they wanted to go to Chargeable Lane they would be… if Chargeable Lane wanted that same, the same person it would be £70, but at SubCo it would be £35 for the same level of care. It just doesn’t make sense. So, again, we saw that as being a Cinderella Service, and them treating the voluntary sector in a very bad way. Because, you know, the quality of service is what you’re paying for whether you’re big or small, and if you’ve already said, ‘It’s an excellent service’, why are you only giving £35?

Why do you think they, sort of, did that to the voluntary sector, having previously emphasised care in the community?

I think, I personally think there was lots of in-house issues going on within the local authority amongst, erm, one of the other contracts. And we were being penalised because they wanted to get rid of them. And, and, and, oh, it’s not, it’s not for this conversation. But there were those sorts of issues going on. Also I think in their mind there was a voluntary sector there was no way you can provide a service, erm, at a cost same to the local authority, ‘cos you don’t have the same overheads. So, again, because I’m sure it goes back to the rest of the council that they’re applying for, which is fair enough, but if it’s an individual budget it shouldn’t be that. There should be overhead costs, yes, but it shouldn’t be that much of a difference. If it’s ten or fifteen pounds we would’ve understood, but seventy pound and thirty-five pounds, that’s a massive difference! And we are providing the transport. With the local authority they had their own local authority transport, and that wasn’t figured into that seventy pounds, it was separate. And this is why we were saying, ‘It’s two rules: one for us and one for them.’ But, at the same time, being a voluntary sector, working the way we do, we knew that we would have to do that and find additional costs, and build the evidence. So over the next three years we were able to draw in lots more funding, made sure we were much stronger. So we supplemented, erm, the day-care service with the activities that we got through grants, ‘cos we were showing the needs there and making sure that people who… There was a mixture of service users: those who didn’t come through day-care, and those who were what we call prevention. So you had a much healthier mix. So it wasn’t just all frail people sitting there together and that was it. You had a mixture of people with different abilities and disabilities, you know? Cross-fertilising and all those sorts of things. Er, and then they went up to forty pounds and forty-five pounds… But, but over the last three years we’ve been able to get people up to eighty pounds, because we’ve been able to prove that these are the needs. So its taken us five years to get to this stage, where we’ve been able to say, ‘For this level of care we need this level of funding’, which they accept, but, again, it could’ve been done right at the beginning. But it’s that five years of having to really, erm, run a service at a loss. And we, we, actually went, we lost, we had our reserves, all the reserves were wiped out because, again, the committee, and we all agreed, and the service users, you know ‘cos it’s all a decision, that we would go into our reserves and carry on producing that quality, even for thirty-five pounds or forty pounds. We’re not going to reduce that quality, and we would find that money later on. And so we did that. And now our reserves are much healthier now, because people have chosen to stay with us. They’ve increased their days, we’ve got new referrals coming in. So in terms of meeting their health and personal care needs, we’re meeting those, and where we can’t we liaise with other organisations and we work with them to get the services. So, you know, they’re spending the money the way they need to be spend. Because people get a budget of approximately three-hundred pounds to, you know, the XXXX [01:13:13] around forty, forty-five pound a day now. Erm, so if they need to have high level needs, it’s got to go to a, a separate panel, and that’s where all the evidence has to be provided, all the monitoring and everything, and then it’s agreed. But when we did it once we knew it would be easier to do it the next time, the next time, ‘cos you’re setting a precedent, and you’re also acknowledging that SubCo can provide that level of service around dementia, particularly, and people who’ve survived strokes, and learning disability, schizophrenia… We can do that, as well as working with other projects with SubCo to make it much more holistic, and still get out in the community, and not people just being, you come to SubCo and that’s it, you never leave the building ‘til you go home, three-hundred-and-six-, well it’s not three-hundred-and-six-, fifty-two weeks or fifty weeks of the year or whatever they go out. If they don’t want to go out that’s fine, but the opportunities are there. So we’ll link that in. So, I think, in many ways personalisation, although it was seen as a big threat for many voluntary organisations, and a lot of the research has shown that it has been. And when we had our Investors In People, erm, er, inspection an all that they were doing, they were surprised that they, they… We were the only organisation that they’d come across where we actually said personalisation had worked for SubCo.

The only one?

The only that, in terms of voluntary sector they were inspecting last year in November—2016 not last year, it was 2016—that they’d come across that it’d worked for us. And we were really surprised because we saw it as something that was quite natural, and they’ve, if you make a service that people want they will stay. But you have to draw in funds from elsewhere. So, my salary for instance, I have to make sure some of it comes from elsewhere. If it all came from the day opportunities funding [laughs], you know, it wouldn’t be, it wouldn’t, we couldn’t have four workers in equivalent working part time. So we’ve got to make sure we keep other things bringing new funding in where I supervise and fund stuff, I take on social work students, so, so we can keep it going. But what they were saying is that other organisations don’t actually do that. They’re very, they’re very much, ‘If the local authority’s not giving it to us, that’s it, we’re not doing it’. But you’ve got to diversify but keep it in certain parameters that it works. And we are financially a lot better of, ‘cos we’re able, we’ve been able to build up our reserves. Erm, because we have made sure that we’ve recovered the full costs of that service now. Because we were able, not just the thirty-five pound initially, we’re able to make sure that when staff have, you know, they need, when somebody needs two staff we have staff on the floor. It doesn’t mean they’re in for the whole day just sitting around doing nothing, they’re also looking after other staff. But those period of time, those staff are looking after service users. So you can have that sixty-five, seventy, eighty pounds as well, and they’re not left on their own. But it doesn’t mean we can employ staff thirty-five hours a week, per se. That’s why it has to be on, erm, er, er, on a rota basis. But they’re fixed hours, it’s not zero contract hours. They know exactly what hours they’re doing, each… well, it’s not changed at all, well they get extra hours not less hours, because the money’s coming in. Because what I’m saying, if the money’s coming in we can afford to pay staff to provide that, that level of service. With contracts you never had that same flexibility, or with grants. So, you know, erm, it was always once cost and that was it, so, and the fact that some people come in five days a week on quite a high contract, oh, high personal budget and they’ll come on medium it, it, it balances everything out by the end of the week. Erm, so with the health and social care, it’s… I suppose there’s as we said provide a very good service, and people’ve said it’s an excellent service, but I think we’ve got a lot to improve on. ‘Cos, again, things are changing all the time. It’s gonna change again we’ve been told. But because we listen to the people that we’re working with, what they want, how they want it to be provided, and we’re very proactive. We haven’t got a long bureaucracy, you know, like local authorities or other organisations. And I think Eastside probably very similar to us. You’ve got user reps, you’ve got a management committee. You can make decisions. It’s up to you. So, you know, if we decide to do something, we can do it. Might take us two years to get the funding, but we will do it. But in the meantime we’ll put some more measures in place that we’re meeting individual needs. So, again, having consultations regularly with individuals, having service user questionnaires. And now we’ve started staff user questionnaires because Investors In People have said that’s a very good way of feeling the temperature. But, erm, yeah, just making sure that we’re constantly getting feedback and that we’re always changing the way we operate. Erm, you know, so you, you know, you, you, there’s ways where meeting the needs of elders is, is always changing, but when we’re working with them we look at, ‘Right, they’re gone into hospital now. We need a befriending service for when they’re in hospital, when they come home.’ So it becomes a holistic service. Whereas other people would say, ‘No, we’re just day care. We’ll leave it as day-care. What they do outside is up to local authority.’ But we don’t operate like that. So we will then, ‘cos we’ll’ve identified a need, done the evaluations, we’ll go to funders and say, ‘We need a befriending service. We need advice, information service. And that’s why we’re delivering it.’ So, yes, day-care is there, but around it we can still meet the needs of individuals in different ways. So we’re forever involved with [Laughs] as you can say. Erm…

Apart from befriending, what other services have you been able to offer?

Erm, we do quite a lot of advocacy work as well in terms of people’s welfare rights, housing, social care. And over the last year we’ve done a lot of end-of-life work as well. We got some funding from, erm, the lottery. It’s one of the small pilot projects .You get up to £10,000. So we, we started talking with elders about end-of-life issues, ‘cos, again, we’d been coming across some of those issues when people go into hospitals, erm, or into hospice. Who makes the decision about what happens to them? And a lot of the time the families were making a decision ‘cos they didn’t want to let them go, but, actually the people we in a lot… You know, the elders were suffering. So we started doing work around, ‘While you’re reasonably healthy, if situations arose, have you got things in place? Have you got’, er, ‘A living will?’—as they call it in the slang language, or as attorney, power of attorney in health and social care, which is not the same as something dealing with your finances—‘But does the GP know what your wishes are? Does your consultant know what your wishes are? Your family? Does SubCo know? So if something happens to you, we’re very clear about what your wishes are and who you’ve appointed to make those decisions on your behalf. But you’ve already said, ‘This is what I want’, and it’s their role to carry it through. It’s not about them changing what you’ve said. So it all becomes legally bound.’ So we did some workshops last year. We did about four workshops, thirty, forty people attended, talking about end-of-life care, what it means to them, if you’re going to hospital, if you’ll die at home, or what you want to leave behind. It was quite problematic as you might imagine, ‘cos elders are saying one thing, the families are saying something else, and trying to work with both sides really. But it’s, it’s a difficult area, but it’s to start thinking about it, because that’s the next stage in life really. Erm, we don’t get involved in drawing up wills or anything that is done by the legal, solicitors. But we work with Compassion In Dying, which is based in central London—they’re the experts around it—who supported us in the training and everything and did workshops with us about taking advice around certain areas of work. So, again, you know, an elder has with the, you know, we did one to ones with them. So we did about twenty one to ones, ‘cos when you’ve done group work you need to then see it through. So it’s almost like, you know, ‘This is what we do, here’s a booklet’, you help them fill it out, take it home with their families, bringing it back, or we can work with their families of what their wishes are. And it’s only health and social care, it’s nothing to do with any of their finances. That is totally separate. So everybody knows what their wishes are. Because when you’re frail and you’ve got dementia, people’re gonna make decisions for you, so now we’re looking on that. One of the areas we’re looking at this year, next year, we’re trying to get some funding to, you know, proper funding for staff and, and, and doing that one-to-one work with individuals, but also carrying on doing some group work. And then we’ve got the reaching communities programme, which we’ve got for five years—we’re in year three—doing prevention work which means working with Asian elders who are younger, older young people, who’ve got some needs but don’t fit any of the social work criteria. But the idea is that they take control of their lifestyles, their lives, in a fun way, whether it’s exercise, socialising, having peer support… Erm, and doing advice and befriending in that project, but also getting people to become peer mentors. So because they’ve been through certain experiences themselves, it’s how they then go on to support others in similar situations. So we’ve had a training programme with Reaching Communities to do a mentor, er, peer support work. So we’ve trained up about twelve peer mentors now who are now doing some of the befriending work, doing some of the group activities, erm, and leading on certain programmes with us as well. Erm, so, again, it like, ‘We’ve been there, we’ve done it, we can support you to do it.’ So it becomes like supporting each other. But obviously staff are there to support them, but they’re taking the lead. And then from Lloyds we’ve got the funding for three years—we’re now in our final year—for working with Asian older carers. ‘At’… It’s called ‘At Critical Transition Points’, because that’s the criteria, which means when there’s ever a change for an older carer themselves or for the person they’re caring for. So supporting them through that. So whether it’s somebody’s going into residential, er, care home, or going into hospital, or needing a new service, or their health deteriorates as a carer, it’s supporting them through the system, whether it’s a carer support assessment, group work, advice work, erm, and looking at them as a carer in their own right, about what their needs are. ‘Cos many times they get left out, ‘cos they’re seen as an older person but they forget that they’re also their carer. Because we have a number of people who are carers for each other as spouses. But some of them are carers for their own children who are now in their sixties who might have learning disabilities, mental health issues, and sometimes it’s more than one child that they’re caring for. And they’re themselves in their seventies or eighties. So it’s founding out how we can support them. So in the past we used to work with older carers, but only as a part of the day-care side, but now we’re working with them in their own right. So we want to extend that project and get funding for that in the future, because that is a real area around older carers and getting lack of support. Erm, and then after that we were always dipping into small bits of funding where every… The Cloth Workers—or the Livery Trust they call them—five-thousand here, eight-thousand there, two-thousand there… Er, depending on what the projects are to meet any shortfall that we want to do. So, again, like the end of life work, the older carers work, there’s some, er, application I’ve been putting together this year so we can get them in. There might be a little time gap, but we can keep things going for a while. Erm, and then we just look around as well to see whatever, erm, the… We call it the XXXX [01:25:35] Trust, will normally fund older people, services like City Bridge Trust, Tudor Trust, Comic Relief, looking at what their criteria are, ‘cos it changes every couple of years, and see if we fit into that, and then we have a project ready to go almost. Just have to tinker around with it. As I said, we’ve got all the evidence so it’s just bringing that up to date as well. And I think, you know, nine times out of ten we have been successful with some of the bigger grants. It’s the smaller ones we’re not so successful with. And again, that’s again because people don’t understand the concept of having Asian services. Some of the funders are very traditional service grant givers, so it’s about, ‘Asian elders should be mixing with everyone else. Why have they got a separate service?’, you know, ‘White elders, African-Caribbean elder, Eastern-European elders should all be sitting in one room, having a great time’. We’ve been there, done it, it doesn’t work in that way. But there are different ways it works. And, again, if you’re talking about individual choice, it’s about that. Some, some of the smaller grants that we get, the funders are understand that. And they understand the diversity within the Asian community. Other funders don’t understand that. They think, ‘They’re Asian, they’re all the same.’ But like we said, the languages, the dialects, the culture, the dietary needs, religious needs, the country’s they’ve come from, it’s all very different. And then we also have a mixture of people who worked in factories, who’ve run their own businesses, who’ve been doctors, teachers… They have very different needs, and how do you meet all those needs within SubCo as well. So, sometimes the grants like the mentor work, people would become natural leaders, like they were shop stewards when they were working for Fords, but they would be seen as a blue-collar work, but you use those skills, ‘cos they want to use those skills within SubCo. So looking at ways that we can develop that as well.

Why do you think you’ve been able to bring the Asian community together so effectively given all these needs, when it can be harder to integrate, say, Asians with Caribbean elders or White elders?

Yeah, yeah. Erm, I think it’s probably, again, the way we work with, again, it’s how you work with other organisations. Erm, showing them you’re not a threat, you’re not trying to take over. And looking at the population in Newham now, it’s, it’s, you know, the biggest population is Asian. So the older population is going to be much bigger than it is now in the next five to ten years. It’s looking at as we call it ‘breaking down barriers’, so doing things jointly with other organisations, so working with Hibiscus which works with 99% it’s African-Caribbean elders, SubCo is 99% Asian elders, and looking at how we can work together in activities, in health information days, erm, in some of the projects we do around arts and crafts, funding sports days, dance, looking at what the similarities are rather than what the differences are, and working around that. And the staff have an understanding amongst themselves as well. ‘Cos I always think if, if from an organiser, if the staff… Like I was talking about when I was working with Social, if the staff managers or the workers on the ground are not sold on the idea, it’s not going to work. So it’s making sure they have a good relationship. And in the beginning it was quite tense, erm, but, again, over a period of time, people getting to know each other, and that we deliver. So if SubCo says, ‘We’re gonna work with you. We’re gonna do this with you.’ We’ll make sure we do it. We don’t just pull away thinking, ‘Oh, it’s too hard!’ and, ‘Why aren’t they doing their share.’ We make sure we turn it around. We go the extra mile. And with the African-Caribbean elders, White elders, when I’ve had to stand up and talk about personalisation, talk about our services and how it could benefit them and their management committees, erm, I think what they say it’s the passion that comes out, [Laughs] of wanting to make things better for older people per se. So although we’re dealing with Asian elders, ‘cos we’re seen as a role model, and the quality that you can actually try and aspire to. So trying to get them to raise their game if they want to survive. Erm, and, unfortunately, I think I mentioned in previous meeting, a lot of the organisations have closed down because they haven’t been able to ch-, make that change. Er, and some of it, it goes against their principles—totally understand—but then what happens to the people who are their service users? Where do they then go for their services? So working with management committees, staff, around about the change. And it takes time. I mean we’ve been doing it with them, I’ve been working with them for the last five, six years before we had the Reaching Communities project. And it takes time to think about, ‘Okay, we are now going to have to monitor everything we do: take registers, keep records, have qualified staff…’ We’ve been doing that for the last twenty-five years. It took time for us to get there, so they’re not going to do it over night, but just being there to support them and they come to us for advice and support, which they do, er, and, and, and, you know they’ve come and spent a day in SubCo to see how it works. I mean that’s the only way. There’s only things we can offer, ‘cos we can’t afford to spend days of training, and they can’t afford to pay us. But if they come and shadow other staff, and come and spend days on what we’re already doing, talk to senior staff within SubCo, we’ll support them as much as we can. And I think they see that that’s what we’re there for. It’s not just about SubCo wants to take over the world and wants to provide every single service for everyone. It’s in partnership with, that’s how we see it. Erm, so there’s certain things we do well. We can share the certain things that other groups do well, which we then work with. And we train ourselves up, like the end-of-life work, we’d’ve never touched that. But in the last year and a half we’ve done a lot of work: our staff, our service users have been trained up. We are much more confident about talking about it. ‘Cos it’s very emotional, a lot of the work we would do. Erm, and, and, and, you know, people are going to die while they’re with us, so working through a lot of those issues as well.

How do the staff and the other people here, sort of deal when, when someone does pass away?

Yeah. I think we, we’ve got a process and policy where we talk about it very openly, and we, and we, we, we, we remember them, how they were before they got ill. ‘Cos again, everybody know them, ‘cos they might’ve been involved in the gardening project, they might’ve been involved in some of the art work. Having photographs, talking through, remembering them as, as a person, rather than, ‘They’re a dead person now’. You know, ‘Do you remember so-and-so? They used to do this, they used to do that.’ Erm, acknowledging in our reports that I’ll put, you know, people have died, or at meetings going to the funerals, whoever wants to go, we’ll make arrangements for staff and service users. Having that space and time to talk about, I think that’s very important. And for staff, again, for instance we have, er, there’s a, there’s a line, a telephone line that staff can go and talk to somebody, up to four sessions, on the phone as a counselling support session. So if they need that external support, they can have that. And then with us we have supervision meetings with staff, so again, if they’re, with their line managers they can talk through that, supportive staff. And, again, because it’s happened over the many years we’ve developed that practice, it’s almost become part of the process. So it, I mean, I know for our social work student who, who, you know, who will come across someone that will probably die while she’s here, it’s preparing her for that, so it reminds us it’s not the same for outsiders when they come in. But making sure that that, that space in supervision is there so they can have that one to one. And other staff will support each other as well. Erm, and, and, you know, in many ways it’s celebrating that person’s life, rather than celebrating death—if you see what I mean—or ignoring death. Er, and so just finding different ways. And different things work for different individuals. I mean, some families will say to us, ‘Please don’t donate flowers or gifts. We’d rather have that you give money to their charity.’ So, again, it’s just having that dialogue, open dialogue with the families. And sometimes the families say, ‘We’d like to donate something’, you know? Whether it’s a television or if it’s a bench, or pay for peoples’ meal on that day if it’s an event. So it’s just having that dialogue, what works for individuals.

Are the fam-…

No one’s left us thousands of pounds! [Laughs]

[Laughs] Shucks!

Yet! [Laughs] Sorry.

Are the families quite involved with the provision you do?

Erm, it’s a real mixture. Erm, the majority of families are find it very difficult to engage with SubCo because they feel the guilt of, erm, not being able to provide the support typically of an Asian family should provide. So sometimes they can get quite aggressive because of that guilt. So we understand that. Erm, but also why we’re trying the carer’s project and the other work we do is trying to have a relationship with the families. So at times, and initially we find that’s very fraught in the beginning because of the quilt, but over months we do find the change when they come to trust us. Erm, they become more open about what the real issues are for them as an individual, and finding out how they can support the person they were, they were with. Erm, with other families we have, er, where, where… Quite a few of the elders we work with live on their own. The families, there’s a lot of friction within the family, erm, both amongst siblings, but also with their, their father or grandfather or grandmother. So, er, it can be quite fraught at times. And sometimes the siblings are having issues with each other because of the, because of the house, the gold, the money, the benefits. And, you know, sometimes squandering all the money, and the other one says, ‘no we’re not!’, and is it a safe-guarding issue and all those sorts of thing. And trying to find out, again, from the elder what they want, because we’re their advocates, and we always have, you know, remind ourselves, ‘We’re there for them.’ And, unfortunately, people play on their, on their, on them as well, but as, as, as objective people, we can try and resolve some of those issues. Erm, and we have found that, at times, it’s been successful. Erm, ‘cos all, wh-, for us, it’s that when elders come to SubCo, it’s about relieving that stress and strain that they’re facing. So if that family’s part of that stress and strain we have to work with them. But there is a limit of what we can do, then we refer them on. So if we think that that’s not right we will do that. But it’s trying to make sure that when they come into the building, or when they’re doing the befriending at home, that’s a safe environment for them at all. And there are times they will disclose stuff to us that we can’t take forward, ‘cos it’s not quite a safe-guarding issue, but it could turn into one. So it’s about, more about monitoring it, and supporting the elders to make those decisions. It’s like when they’ve had elders physical abuse, it’s about taking out injunctions against their family member, er, taking it to court… It can take quite a number of years to get to that stage, and they’ll change their mind quite a few times in that process ,similar to domestic violence for women. So it’s about being there with them and for them, and knowing that there’re options available. And, and also, for them, it’s like, ‘What will the community think, that we’ve taken our children to court?’ But, if they’re abusing you and do things, you’ve got the hard evidence, you have no option.

Mmm.

I mean, we’ve had service users where they’ve lived in the same house, they’ve paid for everything, but when they go for a bath, the heating’s turned off, the water boiler’s turned off, electric’s turned off… You know? Why are you living like that with them when you’re paying for everything and they do it deliberately, and they know how vulnerable you are, and you’re living in the same house? So it’s getting them to think about, ‘Is there another way I can make this life better for me as an individual?’ It’s about having them there. If it is, it’s about having certain ground rules, and you may need to go to court to get those ground rules. Others, you know, where they can’t use the toilet at certain times, because if they flush the toilet it disturbs them, the other family members at night. And, you know, and then it’s cooking in the kitchen, you know, all those sorts of things. It’s, it seems quite minor, but when you build it up over a number of years, and the effect it’s having on that individual, you have to support that person to say, ‘Yes, it’s, you’re ready. Take them to court. It’s your home.’

Mmm.

And, yes it does estrange some of the family members, but then at least they get peace of mind in one respect, and they’re able to build up the social links. If you can’t have people to come and visit you at home, whether that’s SubCo, or friends, or family (other members of the family), then, then what sort of life are you living. So… Families can be very, very challenging, but there are some really good examples of very supportive families. But then, again, we know that if they don’t get the services in place it could, you know, deteriorate as well. So making sure that they can advocate for services for themselves and the people they’re looking after for. So, again, making sure it doesn’t come to a crisis.

Yeah.

‘Cos then, again, they will have to spend more money, the local authority, or the… We were talking about thousands then, hundreds of thousands for putting someone into care, when you could’ve resolved it in a different way. So, families, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s a real mixture of what support is needed. Erm, but they can be, as I said, they can be very supportive, but they can also be very challenging because of the way of the politics within the family. And we know elders are not saints! [Laughs]

[Laughs]

We’ve got no illusions of that! So we know with some of them, and because of their personalities and what we’ve read and what we’ve learnt from them themselves, they were very difficult to live with. They, you know, they were probably say, say they should’ve not done certain things that they done in their life—and you can say that when you’re in your eighties or nineties—but the damage it’s had on the rest of the family, you know, where it’s domestic violence or physical violence or, you know, the way they’re brought up the children, or were at work 24/7, seven days a week, hardly saw their children, never had a relationship… Of course there are difficulties there, and, and, yeah, they’re strong individuals. Even though they’re old they’re not sweet old man and lady. They can be at times [Laughs] but hey can be very challenging themselves, so you can understand where the families are coming from. So, again, we can see what it’s about, but it’s also being an intermediary, trying to repair some of those damages. And sometimes it can happen when things are on a better level. You know, when services are in place, when people have got their own flat, you ow, they’re not, you now, or got their own accommodation sorted out, their own house. Erm, you know, they’ve downsized, you know, releasing equity and thing. But, you know, it’s jet getting it to a point where they, they, that friction is not as challenging as it was, and they’re not as, erm… You know… As hard as they used to be [Laughs]

Do you think that the needs of your service users and the community have kind of changed since you started your involvement at SubCo?

Erm, the needs have changed in terms of as people get older their needs have changed, erm, also in terms of mental health and learning disability services, we’re finding as the last few years we’re getting more people referred who have now grown older with a learning disability, whereas twenty-five years ago they might’ve been in the twenties and thirties, but now they’re in their fifties and sixties they age much quicker, and their needs are higher. And people with Down’s Syndrome as well. Erm, because the way the model that services have changed is going from providing as adults before they hit sixty, or sixty-five in Newham, they were getting quite, I would say they were getting very good services around learning disabilities and mental health, but, now, because of the cutbacks over the last five to ten years things have really changed. So it’s only those most in need who’ll get a service. So we catch people at the higher end of dementia, of, of learning disabilities, where the needs have been neglected for a number of years really. And so trying to find space within our day-care services for people with those needs, and where it’s very challenging needs in terms of being physically violent, we have to turn people away unfortunately, erm, because we don’t have separate rooms where you can have smaller groups of services or restraining services either. Erm, we’re, we’re quite clear that we’re not that type of service. Erm, where they go to I don’t know, ‘cos I, you know, have to reach a mainstream services. I don’t think there’s any other Asian services gonna meet those particular needs. And, and, again, with people who’ve got high levels of needs where they’re living at home, but they need nursing care type services and day-care, administering medication, being able to lie down during the day, those high level needs we can’t deal with either. But what we’re trying to do is making sure we can do that at home when we do our befriending services, where the services are in place in a residential setting trying to get access there, or in hospital. But we’re finding that, in terms of the level of needs—because people are presenting a lot later, erm, because there aren’t the prevention services to pick any of those up, those low level services in the voluntary sector—it’s very difficult for some people. So we thought we were delivering, erm, just the high end of the last five to six year we’re looking at working with people on a much more prevention level, when they were younger trying to maintain their equality of life before they hit that. Erm, so, so it’s almost going back to preventing services at a younger age, er, because of the level of needs around stroke, diabetes, cardio-vascular disease, erm, smoking I forgot about that, and cancers: that’s another area where we’re doing quite a lot of, we’re noting quite a high level of people coming through as cancer survivors as well, and again where it can re-occur. But, again, we’re quite clear we’re not a medical service, so, again, trying to work with, er, the health authorities around how to provide those services. It, it can be quite, quite difficult at times as well. So the needs have changed quite a lot. Funding for those have definitely changed. And the funding streams of where you actually get the money for certain things. So the next stage now for the next couple of years will be health and social care budgets merging, so there’s one point of access. So what that means in reality we’re still waiting to find out. But at the moment you have health on one side, social careo n the other, and they have separate budgets. But in the future they’re going to be combined and how do people access those budgets, and do you have multi-disciplinary teams? So, again, SubCo will have to change again in terms of meeting those particular ways of working, of how you do assessments, how we take on referrals, how we do risk assessments, who we liaise with… So it’s always evolving really in terms of that. Erm, and we’re getting a higher level of people in crisis by the people we’re working with now in their late eighties and nineties. Ten years ago it would be very rare to have Asian elders surviving into their nineties and eighties, but, now, there are more and more people surviving there, so looking at how we meet their particular needs as well.

Is there more pressure on you as an organisation then because of that?

Yeah, there is, there is. But, again, it’s looking at in terms of with the cases around health and social care, the models and the funding, access to services, how, how we then develop into that. So some of the end of life work that we do is more about having getting people prepared for certain things, and being there as advocates. It’s not about providing that high-level service. Erm, and, you know, does SubCo want to go down that route of employing nurses? I don’t know. I think it’s… To come in and do day-care or whatever, day hospital type services… Well, do we work with the day hospital locally and go and preserve services at the day hospital. These are things we’re now going to have to start thinking about. Because as were getting elders reaching those points where we’re doing work with them in those situations, we have to then think about what is the best for the, for the organisation. But being mindful that we don’t overstretch ourselves as well, that we’re not trying to do things that we, that we’re not capable of doing. So, again, looking at what those partnerships would mean with those statutory services really. Erm, again, having experience of Chargeable Lane I think we’re much stronger in terms of if you’re going into other statutory environments what our expectations would be from them, and that, and them of us, and how we would provide that service. I think having it on a contract is much better, you know, it’s just with them, it’s not local authority trying, trying different models that didn’t work in the end, but saying, ‘We’re quite clear. We’re here to deliver this service. This is what we’re gonna do, and we’re responsible for our staff. Duh duh duh duh.’ And you know, being a bit more savvy about some of that, now, I would think! [Laughs]

[Laughs]

Er, it is there. But I think we don’t have, erm, the equipment or the space provide that type, but it’s needed, erm, as people are in long term, on long term hospital wards.

Yeah.

‘Cos there they’re just meeting their medical needs, there’s no stimulation going on there. But how you do that it’s having all those dialogues where, where XXXX [01:48:38] have to think, think differently about how they provide services, but how they see voluntary organisations, ‘cos they still see us as not being qualified to do certain things. Well, we’re not asking to do those things. We’re asking to do the things we’re good at doing. But we will notice things. We go into a service if it’s not being provided well, we will be making comments, we will be making issues of them. So, nobody likes to feel like they’re being watched. So, you know, it’s those sorts of issues that we would have to deal with. Erm, and, you know, at a senior level we had to make all these decisions, but it’s the ground staff: they’re the ones who have to deal with it on a day to day basis and make those relationships work really. With different personalities involved it’s not easy! [Laughs] And different. You kow, career backgrounds and expectations. Butm yeah, I mean we can see ourselves evolving, but, er, you know, what we look like in five to ten years’ time, it’s probably not what we look like, what we looked like five years ago. And other opportunities a well, if there’s opportunities to do something we’ll probably grab it, because we will’ve had the evidence to say, ‘These are what the needs are.’ But, but not being out of our depth, that’s the most important thing: working with other organisations to do things.

Would you mind if we just go over… So obviously your involvement with SubCo started when you were still working at the council.

Yeah.

How did you become sort of actually involved…

With SubCo?

… in SubCo…

As a staff member?

Yeah.

Erm, yeah, I mean, I was working at the local and I had two young children, and it’s one of those personal things as well which comes in personal professional, and I wanted to spend more time with the children, but at that time you couldn’t… working part time for them, it was either you have to do 18 hours, or you do 35 hours. There was no in between. There was no flexi-working in those days, and childcare was horrendous in terms of the cost we were spending on childcare. So I, I was looking around. I did go to social obviously, you know… they said, ‘No, no. Either 18 or that.’ So I was looking around for work, and at SubCo, the chief exec, she was working and wanted to go part time on a job-share, I thought—and flexi-working—‘Ooh!’ So I applied for the post, and, and, and got it, and my children, ‘cos I lived locally the other side of the park, picking them up after school just made total sense. So I just wanted, ‘cos they were very young at the time, I wanted to spend more time. Erm, so I came in as a job share just to work up to 18 hours, but a more flexible way. So you could spread it, uyou know, over seven days or whatever it was. But unfortunately after six months she left. [Laughs] So I ended up not working full-time, but what’s called flexible working now, I had flexible working there. So started off as the chief officer on my own, which was quite difficult at the beginning because it’s not what I came in to do. And the staff team was quite small there as well—you didn’t have a senior management team—so it was just me and everyone else [Laughs]. Literally. So you ended up by doing everything. Erm, so we had a luncheon club at the time, and we had the day care service as well, and we had another project that ran activities. Er, so that’s how I came into it, and we also had a very supportive management committee that, that had been there at the beginning and been through all the difficulties and was very supportive to me as well, so I think that made a big difference. Erm, but unfortunately when I came in after six weeks, er, and this is when my other job share partner was still here, we had some staffing issues with a member of staff… Two members of staff and one volunteer, er, and that was around the meals service that we had. One of the service users had actually made a complaint against one of the cooks, saying the food was inedible. And they had a petition going round. Now, it turned out that the cook was also… Her husband was the volunteer here. He got very aggressive with the service users, and said they weren’t allowed to do, say or do what they wanted, but they did in terms of the petition or challenge the fact that his wife cooked in the way she did, and were very rude and threatening. And unfortunately another member of staff who was a volunteer co-ordinator who backed him up. So we had to suspend them [Laughs] all three of them.

Wow.

[Laughs] Taken advice… At the time we didn’t have any HR. It was going to solicitors, talking to people in council who we knew about what steps to follow. Erm, and they felt aggrieved that they had been suspended, because when you suspend people it’s not a very nice process because it was seen as threatening elders. So a letter… When they came into the work that morning, letters were ready for them, erm, and management committee members did that with me, it wasn’t just the other person who was the job share partner. You have to… [Knock at door] Come in!

[Hi Taskin, we’re just off now.]

Alright, okay, thank you.

[Alright, alright. See you later.]

Yeah. Erm, where was I? yeah, so, so, erm, you have to escort them off the premises, you have to take their ID badges… Because it was thought that if he could be threatening to service users, that was totally unacceptable behaviour. The fact that the other member of staff backed him up as well, you’re colluding. And his wife was also in that situation, so it was the three of them. So they were suspended on full pay pending investigation. Unfortunately what they did, they went to the local press. Unions, unions were involved, which is fair enough. Unison were involved, which we expected anyway. Erm, and they made it an issue that they, that they ‘Don’t know why’ they were suspended. It was ‘Out of order’. They became the ‘SubCo Three’, you know? Placards outside, all of that. And they were supported unfortunately by some other key members of other organisations who were, you know, for their own political reasons going back to the whole Hindu fundamentalist and Muslim thing all started playing a part in that. It became very much, ‘Taskin’s here now. She’s trying to turn it into a Muslim organisation, and we’ve been suspended.’ And we were very clear, and the management committee, it was because of the threat they made to the service user in particular, and those around them. Threatened them that if they signed a petition they would, ‘Sort them out.’ So we… Obviously we had to do our own investigation, get all the statements from other service users who witnessed it, but also those who signed the petition, and also the person that made the original threat to, and who was involved XXXX [01:55:51]. So we XXXX [01:55:53] we, we were quite clear, ‘We’ll do our investigation.’ Erm, Unison were involved, had meetings with them, very clear about what we did and how we did. Acas was involved, couldn’t come to any sort… ‘Cos they weren’t letting go, and we, as an organisation, ‘No, you cannot threaten service users. That is zero tolerance whatever happens’, took us to tribunal, employment tribunal. Again, some other key members were involved in the community, who never should’ve been involved, and were involved in setting up SubCo, so they should’ve known better. But they, as I said, they had their own agendas. Erm, it got to tribunal, erm, it got… We had very good legal advice, I must say. And Unison were right to the… 11^th hour we were negotiating, ‘cos, again, having worked in the council I was in Unison; I knew some of the people who were there, and they, they were in, ‘Don’t do… I don’t, I know I don’t do things like this’, but you represent the people you represent, but try to negotiate, so we did have an out of court settlement before we went back for the second hearing. So they thought they’d won. [Knock at door] But… Hello? Oh no, I thought it was someone still knocking.

[Laughs]

But, again, it was because we were looking at the service at SubCo we didn’t want to see the organisation’s name dragged through, losing the grants at the time, impact it would have on service users. And if we lost on a technical point, which is what we think we could’ve, what they said it could be… The issue always with tribunal is not whether what you did, whether the service… It’s all about the service. It’s about whether you followed particular procedural points at the time, and being a voluntary organisation we didn’t have legal advice at the time we did certain things. I t could be said that, you make, you know, I think at one point they said, ‘You gave a letter at a certain point, the second letter, but you should’ve given it at an earlier point’—something as stupid as that—‘but what they did was totally wrong’. So we did settle with the three of them, erm, ‘cos if we’d gone all the way and we’d lost it would’ve been three times that much money, and there was no way we could’ve afforded… The service would’ve closed. So that was the first year of my life [Laughs]

Mmm.

Er, of coming to SubCo. So it’s always something’s happened!

[Laughs]

Erm, but, but again it made us look, you know, the service users, again, like anything they were kept informed of what was going, and staff as well. It showed that we cared about them. That, you know, even though they’re staff we, you know, suspended them, we took action against them, all those sorts of thing. So, again, people remember that, those sorts of things that, ‘You were there for us.’ Unfortunately some of them have died now, who were there. Think actually no one’s there now who was there. But they were, at the time it was like, ‘No.’ And they were on the management committee, service user reps are on there as well. So, you know, we did what we needed to do. But I think that’s the nature of the voluntary sector as well, that, you know, there’s some things we’re very good at, some things we’re very poor at. I think after that when we, we came across Peninsula, they approach us, because I think that what they do when they go to tribunal they look for customers, isn’t it? And they, they, they came to us, and, and then what they could offer us was really good, because it’s like if you take all their advice and you’re taken to tribunal, all the legal costs are covered. So which is quite good in one respect, not that we’ve ever had to do it since then. [Coughs] But it just meant that you had that peace of mind that you can’t stay, as a small organisation, you can’t stay on top of employment law, you know? We’ve got more important things to worry about. At the same time we have to support our staff. So by having Peninsula it just, sorry I keep looking at the certificate ‘cos it’s on the wall! Erm, but you know, just having that as, as, as a safety net for SubCo is just so important. And the same with Health & Safety: we’ve got them as our Health & Safety safety next as well. It just means that then you can concentrate on, on, on doing the services.

Doing what you’re doing.

So, again, it’s always been difficult times in every, every few years something will come up and SubCo will have to go through it all. And having a very good management committee, and having understanding, I think, from service users and most of their families and staff and other organisations that we’ve worked with. You know, it, it does make you stronger because you’re able to make clear what you’re doing, and also reflect on some of your weaknesses and try and plug those.

Yeah.

I think that’s very important for us. We do that. And, er, we do that at least, you know, you do it in a formal setting once a year at our away days with staff and service user reps and things: what we’ve done well, what we haven’t done so well, and what where we want to go in the next few years. So you sit back and think about, you know, what you want to do and be as an organisation. So that’s why having this 25 years celebration is so important to us, really, because it’s capturing all those histories and memories and stories, and, and photographic exhibitions just pulling it all together. And I know there’s probably loads of things I haven’t spoken about, but it just depends really, and, and other people will pick up stories and the anti-racist movement at the time, I know other interviews will be happening with, with other people, so they will talk about those sides, and then I’ll remember! [Laughs]

[Laughs]

‘Oh yes! I was involved in that! Oh yes, we did that!’ But again it’s just… it feels we’re in a different place now to where we were twenty-five, twenty-six years ago. But the fact is that we’ve developed and we’ve stayed strong. And over time we’ve grown even stronger than we anticipated. And we’re still here that’s… And providing a really good service. Otherwise people could take their money and run; go somewhere else. ‘Cos you don’t, you know, you just don’t know unless people walk through the door. It’s like any shops people used to say to me, ‘If you don’t like a service you go away, I swear.’ I hope we’re not like a shop, but, you know, in terms of, you know, the money is with the customer. But we don’t call them customers, we call them service users. But it’s their budget. They can do what they like. And if they stop coming that means we’re doing something that is not right, and we’re not on top of that. So we encourage complaints. I know it’s a weird thing to say, but we do, ‘cos if we know where we’re going wrong then we can do something about it: change our practice, change our policies, look at staff, you know, job descriptions, how we operate… And a lot of it is the stuff that we know: food, transport… And there’s very little we can do about it ‘cos it’s not in our control. But there’s somethings that we can make changes. It’s like developing services, meeting their needs at different levels, erm, working with families, how we communicate with people—that’s the most important thing—and, you know, listen to them when we make mistakes, as we do. ‘Cos not all our staff, you know, we’re not all 100% fantastic all the time. We have our moments. But, again, getting staff to recognise when they’ve made mistakes and how they could’ve been different. And on the other hand the service users have been very bad to staff, you know, have been very, you know… And, and they’re compos mentis, that’s the other thing. You know, we do take that up, and we have banned staff, and suspended their services when they’ve done certain things that’ve been, you know, out of order. But they, you know, they’ve understood that they’ve made mistakes and they’ve come back, you know, they’ve been reinstated. But, again, it’s sending messages out to, to other service users. And a couple of times we’ve had to do that, it’s been around sexual harassment around other service users and staff, so you’ve got to take a stand on things like that. Erm, or when people’ve been verbally and physically to each other as service users, you know?

Yeah.

So it’s not like [Gasps] oh you know, hunky dory like I say, yeah, we’ve had to… You think about schools and youth clubs and all those things that happen. It happens here as well: you have to suspend services. But we’ve never had to suspend a service user for ever. It’s only been for a short period of time, one to two weeks. But we’ve always made sure they’ve had space, you know, services in space, and their families—if they’ve got family—know about why and what. But, you know, it, it, you know, it has to happen. We’re not perfect. You know, unfortunately people who physically abuse and mentally abuse, they grow older. So they’re going to be doing certain things at an older age as well. Where people have, erm, dementia or other mental health issues and they’re not aware of what they’re doing, there are some allowances made. But, again, there is still a line where we, we say we can’t meet their particular needs. But, again, you know, when somebody comes up and strokes us, one of our staff, and carries on doing it and carries on doing it, and they’ve got mental health issues or they’ve got dementia, there are still sometimes ways off getting through to people what’s inappropriate behaviour. So it’s actually working with them, with their dementia and having you know, certain, you know, signals that they understand, that you don’t do certain things. But, yes, we have to be reminded again and again, because they’ve got dementia. But, you know, they staff have to be strong and say, ‘No. That’s inappropriate. You can’t do that.’ in their particular language, er, and just make a stand, or, you know, physically remove themselves from that situation. So, you know, we’re having to look at all those sides of things as well.

Yeah.

And, again, ‘cos we do quite a lot of intergenerational work as well, we’re quite aware of particularly aware of very young, you know, youngest primary school children we have to be very clear that we’re that the people who are working on those projects we’re 100% that they’d be okay with them. And, and when we’re working with teenagers as well. ‘Cos, again, you just don’t know; allegations can be made as well.

That’s something we haven’t actually touched on. Could you explain a bit more about the intergenerational…

Yeah. Erm…

… stuff you do.

I mean, again, being part of the community and having a youth-work background and having young people, children that’ve grown up in the area, we’ve seen how difficult it’s been for young people in the area, particularly over the last ten, fifteen years with stabbings, gangs, Asian gangs and Africa-Caribbean gangs, you know, fighting against each other. So a few years ago we, we recognised, again, a lot of that was happening, but the council wasn’t doing very much. Er, in terms of the youth work provision that was in the area, it was getting cut back and cut back so it was almost non-existent. And I’ve got three boys, who’re now young men, who grew up in the area, went to school (primary, secondary, everything), and when they were in their sixteen, seventeens, right up to when they were nineteen, they, there was a lot of violence in the area, particularly around this area: Stratford School, St Bonaventure’s, the park… Erm, a lot of African-Caribbean and Asian rivalry. Erm, and there were, and there was a stabbing in the park. Erm, unfortunately my son was, er, with his friend, two friends when it happened. It was over a mobile phone. And even after that there was nothing put into place. And that young person died in my son’s arms, so it just triggers you off again, all these things happening. And, and there was still nothing going on, you know? There was still no services in place. Wrote to the local authority, talked to St Katherine Road centre…. You know, some of the community and some of the councillors: ‘Oh we’d like to do that but we don’t have any funding.’ And some of the youth groups were very church orientated, so we knew many Asian young men, particularly Muslims, wouldn’t go there. So we talked to some of these young people—and there’s a lot of drug dealing, and there still is, but at that point there was quite a lot here, and there were young Asian boys, a lot of young Bengali boys, that were drug dealing around Plashet Road, round the corners. And of course… So I’ve been in the area, ran youth groups, and my sons have been, you know, quite open about what goes on here. So, and again, just talking to some of the friends of, of, of my sons, and what was going on, and they’re saying, ‘Yeah, we’ve got nowhere to hang out. There’s nowhere to go, nothing to do.’ Er, and the council wasn’t forthcoming, and so I had a discussion with the management committee, we spoke to staff, er, we talked about opening a shisha caff here.

Mmm.

Erm, as a community café for young people, and bringing in young people, keeping them off the streets. Erm, we had no funding for it. We’d volunteer our time, and you know, you know, some of them, well myself, my family, some of our friends, some of the managing committee staff at that point were really in that situation where they could, a couple who could help out. ‘Cos it would be evening and then weekends and stuff like that. And shisha caff you’ve got to be very careful and who you let in and all those. And, again, ‘cos a lot of the shisha caffs there’d been some stabbings, so the council was very anti shisha caffs as well. So we got a pool table. You know you’ve got all those things? You’ve got a football table, it’s got table tennis, got the shishas in. We were having 40-60 young people here. It was like ‘What!’ [Laughs], you know? And it was like, ‘Okay… Didn’t quite anticipate some of this…’ ‘Cos, again, the word got round it was reasonable. And there was a cost, nothing was free. The shishas were, you know, they cost ten quid a head, you can have food, you can pay for the football. You know, the snooker you’d play, and the slot machines, buy drinks, have a snack when you come. And it was chocker chocker chocker. Er, so like from half past three, bumph, the schools, the college, universities. Of course nobody under eighteen was smoking shisha…

[Laughs]

… or cigarettes, or anything else. That was all outside. But they would have the food and things. Police would be coming in regular, said it was fantastic, you know, venture, blah blah blah. So, ‘Oh, this is really good! It’s really working.’ So it started in June, October we get visit by enforcement of the council: ‘You have to close down the shisha caff; it’s illegal.’ ‘What’s illegal? It’s outside.’ ‘Cos we know the legal requirements, air pollution… ‘Okay’ Had no choice. Police were obviously devastated, because it was keeping people off the street. We’d made a, a really good relationship with these young people. And, er, we’d done trips like to Thorpe Park, Alton Towers. We’d set up a young football team for young players as well. We started doing that, and intergenerational matches and things, tournament… And thought, ‘Oh my God. This is going down the drain now’. Wrote to councillors. We did the normal thing like lobbying. We didn’t put anything in the papers, ‘cos it wasn’t worth it, but we wrote to them. And they were threatening to shut SubCo down because we allowed young people on the premises, just stupidness, you know? Erm, in the end… And we said, ‘What’s air pollution? You said they could smoke outside. So they can smoke at the front, out the back’—it wasn’t all covered then, ‘cos we kept it… But you had to have it 75% open or something like that. We did all of that. ‘No. No. No. Gotta close it, gotta close it. It’s illegal, it’s illegal.’ Enforcement saying they’re gonna knock down things here and there, ‘cos we made the benches outside and the covering on the roof. It’s a charity keeping young people off the street. Violence, crime rates have gone down in this immediate area ‘cos they’re occupied. It was open ‘til 11 O’clock at night. After hours 11:30, you know?

[Laughs]

I remember doing 12-12 shifts, you know, those sorts of things. But also ‘cos I had, ‘cos my sons were here they knew everyone and everyone knew them: you don’t mess around with them. You know, it’s them sort of thing. Job opportunities for some of these young people, volunteering opportunities as well, put something on their CV. So you’re creating employment as well, and experience. But they said, ‘No.’ We had petitions, the normal stuff. But unfortunately we had to close down the shisha caff. So… But on the basis of that, what we did, we had the evidence, we did some reports, got feedback from the young people. We applied…. Comic Relief had an intergenerational funding pot where el-, where you could have elders as mentors to younger people. So we turned that into a project. We got three year funding from, er, comic relief. So we had an intergenerational project. So we had an after school youth club here, and also and in the school holidays we had intergenerational work with older people as mentors, ‘cos what we’ve recognised, what’s happened with that particular generation is that you have the grandparents, you had the parents, and you had the young people. But the parents had no time for the young people, ‘cos they were working all the time, so their relationships were with their grandparents, so they had more respect for that. So again, from our discussions with the young people, they saw more of their parents. So we thought elders and mentors, respect, one to one, group mentoring. And we revived the community café without the shisha! [Laughs]

[Laughs]

People came for drinks and snacks and the youth club. And the elders would talk to them about their issues, their problems. They would do activities together. We had intergenerational football team, erm, the SubCo football team was in the South Essex League, on Sunday League. And they were there representing SubCo as well. And it worked really well. Sundays it was like, ‘Oh no! It’s another football game!’ you know? But… I mean, I… After a while I didn’t have to do any of that, ‘cos the young people took on the lead of organising and everything. But what did happen is there were fights would break out [Laughs] at the football matches. So we’d get these complaints sent to us by the referees and the South Essex Football league. Erm, because, obviously Essex is very white [Laughs], and there were these Asian young boys from Newham [Laughs]. Things were said, you know, very racist stuff, and young people… bang bang bang, fight here, fight there. But we were always in the wrong. SubCo youth team was always in the wrong. Nobody else. The referees were never in the wrong, the other team was never in the wrong, they made comments but they were never in the wrong. It was so sad, er, but we kept it going despite that for a long time. Erm, I think XXXX [02:14:36] nearly two years. Erm, and I think with that intergenerational work, because the young people would be sponsored and supported by the older mentors as well, when they had those discussions about what happened, how it happened, and also some of the coaching as well was from, well the older people were in their late 50s, early-60s as well, so they were good at football and things. And so, so you know, that intergenerational project was at quite a lot of different levels as well: the advice and support. And it gave confidence to elders that they were feeling they were being very useful, they were doing something, and, and younger people felt they had someone they could talk to if they needed to. But also it was about join activity together. I mean we had an intergenerational sports day at Plashet Park that was just brilliant. First time we’ve done that. We’ve done it twice since, and I think we’ll do it again this year. Er, and that was really, really good as well. Like all the different abilities and disabilities and age groups that worked at. So… And, and, and, you know, out of that we then developed the work with the local schools and some of the other youth groups as well. So we’re carrying on elements. Although it’s not funded as such any more, we still keep elements of that going. Erm, very small pieces, of five-hundred pound pieces or pockets of funding. Erm, and then we’ve, er… The challenge who… It’s a bit like the Prince Of Trust, Princes Trust, where young people go and do things in the community, whether it’s activities, painting, volunteering for the day… They will come in for two days and they will be here with their lead mentors, and they’ll do intergenerational work with people at SubCo. And they’re from all communities as well: White, Eastern European, African-Caribbean, as well as Asian. And they’ve made a couple of films. So what they did a couple of years ago, one, one, one group—and every year it’s slightly different—they would, erm… One day they spent in planning what they would be filing, who they would be interviewing, having all the equipment ready, and the second day would actually be doing all of it: interviews, the dancing, the group activities, and then bring it into a video. So we’ve got all of that that the young people have made, so skills of media and printing and stuff like that. And the elders love showing off and dancing and talking and singing. So keeping that intergenerational stuff going is very important. Although we’re not funded for it, finding small pockets of funding so that we can keep it going. And this year they’ve got it in July on the 25^th actually, we were talking about the day today, it’ll be the intergenerational sports day, so that’ll fit in quite nicely with this project as well. Could do some filming that day as well.

Yeah, that’d be…

As long as it’s a nice day…

[Laughs]

We’ll do It the park, but otherwise we’ll have an indoor sports day, and we’ve done that before we’ve had to do that. So we can work something up around that as well.

Excellent.

And normally there’s about ten to fifteen young people, so it’s quite a big group.

Yeah.

And normally they come in the first day, they look around, ‘Oh God! What we gonna do?’ By the end of it they don’t wanna leave: ‘We wanna go back! We wanna go back!’ But it’s, it’s again it’s just breaking down those barriers that we’re talking about ‘bout between different generations. Because, again, with the project we did originally with the elders, er, elders, it was that thing about fear that young, young people are always about violence and crime and, you know, drugs, and this and that. But it’s only when they realise the similarities: the songs, the music, the sport, the films… Everyone knows how to laugh, you know? It, it just breaks down so much of that, so it’s really brilliant to see that happening. So, again, we wanna keep that going. And we are, and you know, we’re luck, we’re very lucky: the local school, a couple of the local schools—Elmhurst, Sandringham, and, er, Welwyn—that they work at us at different stages of the year and things, and produce things to, to show as well, exhibitions, get families and parents involved. So, again, that’s being part of the community. So you know, and those old people’s day centres, ‘Oh there’s an old people’s day centre there… Oh! It’s not what we thought it was!’ Because you say, ‘Yes, it is primarily, but also this is what we do with old people.’ You know, it’s not that you grow old and you grow in a corner. Bring out the skills, they’ve got so much.

Yeah.

And it’s not every single elder will get involved in every single activity, but they’ll all have been involved at some point, even if it’s just the planning and the involvement of being in the group when discussions have taken place. So they’ve all had some sort of input. It’s not the usual five or six in some organisations that keep doing everything, you know. Just make sure that those who try and dominate: ‘It’s very good, but let auntie have a turn, let uncle have a turn…’ and the staff are very good at, and Shapla’s brilliant at doing that as well, like diverting them away from that. But, yeah, it’s just keeping that going. And it gives that energy to everyone as well.

Mmm.

And then we take on, er, you know, you people from work experience from the local schools and colleges. SO, again, there’s a through input throughout the year of young people coming and going. And that means elders can tell their story again to somebody new each time…

[Laughs]

… who’s never heard it before, and it, you know, it’s great for them. And, and hopefully with some of them they may start thinking of it as a career, you know, working with older people in some sort of setting, which is possible you know. Good role-models with the staff here as well. It’s like youth work but for older people, so it’s much more glamorous in some ways than they thought. 

Yeah.

Yeah, so that’s quite nice really.

What’s, erm, your sort of proudest moment or favourite project work that you’ve done at SubCo?

I haven’t got one. Seriously, I haven’t got one. Arm, I don’t think I have. Because I think, over the years, there’s different things we’ve achieved, and at the time [Gasps] ‘Fantastic!’ but then we’ve always gone and done something even better. So it’s difficult to say one thing. Erm, in terms of… I mean, I think for me personally, it’s when we get grants or contracts for services I always feel, ‘Oh my gosh we’ve got that! I didn’t think we’d get that!’ At that level I could say getting certain grants and contracts. Erm, and then I suppose Investors in People if you’re looking at that level, when we got that the first time round—how many years ago I can’t remember now—that was something else. We just thought, ‘Oh! SubCo’s got that!’ And then last… In 2016 we got Investors in People for the next three years, and then we were nominated to be finalists [Laughs], which is that blue plaque. We went in, we went in November and I wasn’t gonna go for it, ‘cos it’s very expensive tables. It’s like two-hundred-and-fifty pound a person. And I thought, ‘We can’t afford that!’ ‘cos if you’re taking key management committee and seniors you’re talking about two-and-a-half thousand pounds. And, er, so I mean, ‘negotiate, negotiate, negotiate’: we got them down, and we did take ten people. And I’m glad we did, ‘cos we didn’t realise how high profile it was [Laughs]. It was at Old Billingsgate, and, er, you have organisations internationally and from around the country, local authorities, hospitals, prison, probation services, international companies from Dubai and Philippines have all got Investors in People, ‘cos it’s international not just not national. And we’d been nominated as a finalist up from fifty, you know, employers from 50-200, 0-50 employees as a finalist. It didn’t hit us until we were actually there, sitting at the table! When they started, when we saw the brochures, which we’ve got everything. ‘What!’… It was just the shock. I think it was pride, pride for all of us, and proud I would say, but we didn’t realise that that’s what it was, that what was XXXX [02:23:03], ‘cos we we’re just in two minds of going [Laughs]. And it was, it was amazing, you know, that we got that far as a small voluntary organisation from Newham, As-, you know, BME… But we’d obviously met the benchmark and over, overdid it as they said. We were excellent in certain areas and we’ve got the… What did we get? Silver? Yeah, ‘cos after silver there’s gold and plat-… Gold, I think. Yeah. And platinum somewhere as well, so… We were really silver finalists, and it was 200 organisations it was out of, we were the top four.

Wow.

And the one won they’re a multinational organisations. The list… ‘Cos when we were looking at the booklet we were going, ‘Oh my goodness! We didn’t realise! We weren’t going to come to this? And they’ve given us this?’ But just having our names read out and everything on, on, on that, and we didn’t have to go to the stage ‘cos only the finalists went to the stage ‘cos they had so many different categories for, for it as well. But we, we were like, ‘Wow! SubCo’s up there!’ So that was a shock XXXX [02:24:10]… I suppose… I wouldn’t say it’s the proudest moment, but it’s one of the proudest moments I think we’ve got, yeah. I think it’s winning our contracts and things and getting grants that’s where we’re, you know, do that. So it’s a group of things [Laughs]. Erm… And, and I think the other side of it is when… I know it sounds a bit ‘bluh’, but when we get letters or cards from service users and their families to say what a difference we’ve made to their lives once a person has died and we get these. So, ‘Oh wow, we did make a difference!’ So it’s that as well that we’ve done.

Yeah. Well it’s nice that you’ve got the sort of ongoing kind of, you know, relationship with your work and remember people that use your service.

Yeah, I think it is. And I think, you know, that makes a real difference for us as well we’ve got that.

Well, I mean…

Oh yes, sorry! [Laughs] Gone on a long…

It’s been, it’s been absolutely great, erm, so, yeah… If you don’t have anything more to add I guess…

No, I think I’m all talked out! [Laughs]

All talked out, yeah. Well, thank you very much Taskin for all your time…

No, thank you for all your time as well.

… it’s been excellent.

The End

Not to be used without copyright.

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Taskin Saleem

Project: Growing Old Gracefully - SubCo

Date of interview: 06/03/2018

Language: English

Venue: SubCo

Name of interviewer: Francis Ball

Length of interview: 02:25:25

Transcribed by: Francis Ball

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_01

Interview Details

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Deborah Cameron

Project: Growing Old Gracefully - SubCo

Date of interview:

Language: English

Venue: SubCo

Name of interviewer: Francis Ball

Length of interview: 90:52

Transcribed by: Jo Law & James King

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_02

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interviewer

Interviewee

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It’s the 26^th March 2018 and this is Frances interviewing Deborah Cameron as part of the Subco 25^th anniversary project. Um, would you mind telling me your date of birth please Deborah?

I might do, but I’ll tell you anyway [laughs], its 25.12.48

Thank you. Um, how long, where were you born?

I was born in Hertfordshire, in Hemel Hempstead but that’s because I was born in hospital, one of relatively few people born in hospital just after the NHS started.

Is, was it just more common for you to be born at home?

Yes, my younger brother was born at home as well.

So was the hospital you were born in, presumably that was fairly newly built if it was just after the foundation of the NHS?

I wouldn’t have known at nought [laughs]

[laughs]

I would suggest, I would think it was probably a hospital there already and it’s, I’ve seen it recently and it’s very different now so who knows, but probably was a newish maternity wing at that stage, but a lot of the hospitals at that time were developed from existing buildings, particularly workhouse buildings.

Oh really?

Yea.

What were your parents sort of doing at the time?

Well my father was, what was then called an electrical engineer, when he was actually an engineer he worked for Ilford films inventing X-rays and things like that and he’d been in the admiralty in the war and my mother, when I born wasn’t working but she’d been at the time the only woman driver in the fire brigade and had been based at Bethnal Green. But by the time she had me, she, she wasn’t working.

I think it was quite common, that you know, women would take on work, especially during the war, but then when they started to have families it was kind of expected for them to look after their families, wasn’t it?

Er, for a lot of people. My mother would have done whatever she liked frankly, um [laughs], she did work quite a lot and ran, did farming projects and things like that because when I was older we lived in Essex. She would breed cattle and all sorts of things so…

Wow

…but she wasn’t working when I was born and she’d not long married my father, because he was her third husband, so she was a fairly unusual character for those days.

How old were you when you moved to Essex?

About a few months, so…

Oh right OK.

So it’s not, I can’t tell you much about…

So you, you

…Buckinghamshire and Hemel Hempstead

…you grew up in Essex though, presumably?

Um?

Did you grow..?

I grew up, mostly, we spent a little time in Scotland as well, but mostly in Essex

Where did you go to school?

I went to a nursey in Essex and then a, a primary school that seems to still exist, which is a private school and then I went to Brentwood County High School. Which appears to still exist whether it’s the same is another matter.

Yea, did you enjoy going to school?

Not much, no.

I suppose no-one does really do they?

Well I worked quite hard at school but I was a bit nervous, I was a nervous child, was scared of quite a lot of the teachers they used to be quite menacing in my day.

What did you go onto do after? What did..?

What did I go onto do?

Yea

I went, I went straight to do a social work course as an undergraduate which was very unusual, there was just one course at Keele. Um which was always a 4 year course anyway, so it meant that I didn’t have holidays, we studied all, all the vacations doing social work training.

Was it, I mean what was access to higher education like? Um

In my era pretty good if you’d been to a grammar school or a high school and if you went to a comprehensive or secondary modern, as they then were called, it was not at all good. Um, but one of the big education issues that’s gone on, on and off since then has been that more ordinary people got into further education from grammar schools then now happens from comprehensives on the other hand who gets into grammar school and high schools is a slightly selected group at the very least. So, um that was an issue then, it was an issue now, my sister didn’t get into um high school so she went to some ghastly school and then she went to a place called Clarke’s college and then she went off to boarding school which upset her terribly, I remember it. But I know my parents view would have been that’s the only chance she had of anything, so it was pretty competitive world.

Yea

But my generation got far more access to university than people do now and at least the academic tuition was free then.

Um, and presumably you got grant as well, like to live on?

Yes, I didn’t get a living grant because although we weren’t that well off my father was well off enough, and that was always an issue because um, I had a row with my Dad and um, said I’d keep myself, I used to, as well as doing social work I used to um work in shops so I kept myself.

Must have been quite full on with studying and sort of holding down a job as well?

Oh yea, I was active in the union as well, that was a sort of, workaholic person I think from an early age.

What did you do in the union?

Um, well I ended up briefly being president but mostly I was deputy president and I had some other role before that but I can’t actually remember what it was, it can’t have been terribly interesting.

What sort of work did, you know, does it take to be president of the union? What sort of things do you have to do?

Speak at meetings, I’ve, for some reason I was relatively good at speaking that makes a huge difference, it’s completely unfair cos it’s nothing to do with capacity. Um be interested in politics because we all were, especially in those days, very, probably in some ways differently than people may be now, may be that’s not fair. We, we were very interested in politics, we were interested in what the university did for students, that was a huge issue because there was, during the late 60s all sorts of action by students about what the content of courses was, who got on them, um, how students were involved because it, when I was at university we were very little involved and we felt we should have a say, so we demanded it, so those sorts of things were crucial, and we ran a union building which I did have a role in, and had a staff, a big canteen and all sorts of things, Keele’s a little bit out of town and remote so there’s the union shop and building and facilities were run by the union, which isn’t true everywhere, but..

No, but I think increasingly less nowadays, sort of as it all gets sold off. I know the university of London union building’s all been taken over by a company.

Um, well, we owned our building and ran it. How that had started I can’t remember now.

Um

The other thing we were very involved with apart from all going off to Paris and being involved in demos and politics and things, was um, we were very interested because there’s always travellers camping on the university grounds, it still has got large grounds, Keele, a lot of farm land round it, it won’t be land that’s of the same value as the university of London and um, we um, objected to the way the travellers were treated and subjected the poor things to all sorts of education programmes which they may well not have appreciated [laughs]. I think we thought it was a good idea and none of their children had been to school so we felt it was important to prevent them being removed.

That’s interesting. Um, I was going to actually ask about the sort of, the student movement in Paris as well, cos clearly that’s a very famous moment, in sort of the history of the 1960s. Um was it common for English student to go over there and participate as well?

Yes, to a degree. You were monitored if you did that.

Really?

Oh yes, but um, so when I worked in America subsequently they called us all in, any of us that did that, called us all in for interviews and things…

Wow

…before we could get a visa. But um, I didn’t do vast amounts with that, but we did all go over there and discuss what was happening and what the aims were and what we would do and as I said we had a great interest in the role of students and how we would expect to have a say in our training and the academic work, mine was a course that included a social work training as well so it was a particular issue for us. Um, but I, it was only a, I only went once to Paris, it was only a relatively brief trip and to, ‘s exciting but I don’t know that we, we, met some interesting people but I don’t know whether we made any difference, and I don’t know that it made a huge difference to what we did in this country but we felt it did and we felt a connectedness that may not be quite the same now, it may be over the gun things in the USA now, but we felt a connectedness with students in Germany and France and to a degree in the States where lots people were in Vietnam anywhere and the draft was there, so…

Um

…that was obviously another interest of ours, mostly against what we were so…

Yea. Was there a sort of unified student movement in the UK or was it kind of, you know just your universities and..?

No, there was an NUS existed then

Um

Jack Straw was secretary of the NUS when I was at university.

Really?

Um

That’s interesting. Um

And we had Teriq, um what was his name Teriq Ali spoke at, was due to speak at Keele and then it turned out that, I can remember sending an extremely rude message [laughs]. So we were interested in the wider issues and everybody was.

Um. Did you take part in protests and stuff as well as kind of organising within the union?

Within the university we did, and there was a, one point a three day strike which was about selection and course content and student involvement but um, on the whole our academics were very keen to talk to us.

11mins 56secs

Of everything, so um, wasn’t frightening, Paris was a little bit frightening, but it was, it didn’t feel a, a scary event which subsequently some protests did I think. The, the more scary situations were anti-apartheid demonstrations and things like that. They, they would get scary.

Was that because the police were more sort or heavy handed?

Yes, they’d come heavy handed in their great green coaches and knock everyone down.

So have you been sort of, participating in kind of political movements like that your whole life?

No. Much more when I was a student. I got my ribs broken for me on a Stop the 70s Tour demo and that puts you off a bit because..

Wow

I was initially charged with assaulting a police but um, it never went for trial because my defence lawyer, who was from the university legal department, um called the police officer to stand beside me and he was so much bigger than me, um the case crumbled before committal, so…

[laughs]

…which was a good thing because I was planning to be a probation officer so it would have been very awkward if I…

Um

..had got a conviction for assaulting police, which I didn’t do as it happens.

Yea. What protest did you say that was part of?

That was part, I can’t, trying to remember where it was, it was part of the Stop the 70s Tour, so it must have been just before I graduated or just after, I think just before.

What, what was the Stop the 70s?

It was, it was not accepting teams from South Africa.

Arh. OK.

And nearly everybody, not everybody obviously, but a lot of people, much wider movement um boycotted food from South Africa and so on. People who weren’t particularly political…

Um

…because it was quite a strong movement.

Yea. So after you did your 4 years a university what did you go onto do?

I’m very old, this is going to go on and on, and we’ll never talk about Subco, but I went um to do my final placement in the States, which is why I needed a work permit.

Um. Hence the awkward questions about…

Yea. Well we had to be interviewed and make a commitment that we wouldn’t indulge in, indulge was the word used I believe, in any um political activity that wasn’t regarded as our business.

Would you have just been expelled from the country, had you…?

I think so, but I don’t know, how seriously, how serious it really was, but you had to go in for an interview anyway. You could just get a visa which other people did. To get a green card so you could work you needed to be accepted.

Was, presumably America was quite different to England?

Different in many ways, it was very different, yes. Whether it’s, many English speaking countries, America’s always been very different, but any English speaking country is easier to navigate in some ways, even if they don’t use quite the same words. Anyway I travelled round the US by coach because I couldn’t afford to stay where I was going, so… I travelled very, very light stayed in Chicago and then went and did a work placement in California and… then came back via the deep south, stayed in Alaba, Birmingham Alabama, and then came home. And I couldn’t work as a probation officer which was a job I had until December of that year that I graduated which was 1970, because you had to be a certain age to be a probation officer in those days…

Oh, right,

I was slightly young, even though I’d done a 4 year course.

But then you became a probation officer?

Um

Where were you based at that time?

At Old Street which is um, south Hackney, south west Hackney, just north of Liverpool Street.

Yea, I know the area.

Yes

Yes

Trendy now.

Yea, it is isn’t it?

Wasn’t then

So, so what was it like?

Very poor, indeed and pretty [xxx]

Yea. Presumably your clients would be members of the local community?

I, my patch was south Hackney by Victoria Park and that it really quite grand now but in those days all the big houses there were all multiply let. Plenty of families just in one room accommodation.

Um

That was my little patch and it was not long after the Krays had been um, sent to prison, so there were lots and lots of really very young people on drugs.

What particularly attracted you to that sort of side of social work?

That side of social work, or social work in general?

I suppose both.

Well I made a decision about social work when I was so young that I don’t know how relevant it really is, because to apply for degree courses, I was applying when I was 16,so um, cos I went to university when I was 17, so the rationale probably doesn’t hold true for all your life but I, I felt I wanted to help people and change things and there was a social work movement that’s long gone now, called Radical Social Work which was about the connection between social work and empowering people and activism rather than social workers managing and policing which it is a little bit like now.

Um

Particularly for families and younger people. So our training was very extensive and very counselling and empowerment focused really and I don’t, it’s not my experience that that’s the same now.

And, and, what attracted you to the probation side of social work?

I was interested in why people got into trouble and whether they would be stuck in difficulties for ever. I was particularly interested in women who got into trouble which made it rather a hard job. We had a lot of children in those days they didn’t go over to local authorities, ‘till a year or two after I’d become a probation officer and then they, poor children got nothing whereas we’d actually seen them a fair amount, but the local authorities really weren’t ready…

Um

… certainly not in east London to, to look after them and take them on.

Did you find the work quite demanding?

I enjoyed it. Some of it was demanding. I did a liaison role in Holloway prison and used to drive home crying I was totally unsuitable probably [laughs]. No-one asked.

Yea

But um, in those days the probation service, unless you were going to be a psychiatric social worker which was the other issue, the other career I thought about, were much more social work focused than a lot of local authority child care, which um, tended to be less well supported, so if you wanted to do social work in the technical sense those were the jobs you went into, which is not the case now, probation isn’t actually a social work profession, you can be a social worker and do it but that’s not how it’s treated any more.

Yea. That’s interesting when do you think there was that sort of change, cos I mean, I’d consider it more part of policing really. I hadn’t considered it…

I can’t remember which year there was a change now, I’d have to look it up and tell you but um, it did change at one point relatively recently, so that you didn’t have to be a social worker to be a probation officer and believe it or not there was a time before I became a probation officer when you didn’t have to be, but at the time when I was a probation officer it was a social work job and we were very well supervised and supported actually and we thought very carefully about our role and what we did. Um, as I said I’m not sure it was entirely suitable some of it, for as young a woman as I was because I worked on the murder wing at Holloway for my caseload and that included a lot of women who may or may not be in prison nowadays who’d killed children. Um so it was very, very hard work because at that time all my clients had been abused themselves, so the, the connection between childhood abuse and not coping with having children was not so well understood as it is now, I think, and we had a lot of people who’d been sexually abused who were working in prostitution and um, again the connections weren’t nearly so well understood at all.

Was it quite hard for people to understand those sort of correlations between…?

Well the academic work hadn’t been done, the Home Office research unit was actually very good in those days, but very little academic work had been done, on some of this. Most of the work, as true to some degree nowadays, tended to be American, there wasn’t um, an academic focus on, on child protection as it became known, now safeguarding, at all and there was no adult safeguarding whatsoever. Some of the work might safeguard adults but they weren’t the focus really.

When you say safeguarding what does that entail exactly?

Safeguarding is the term used nowadays for protecting vulnerable child, children or adults. Um, as far as adults are concerned um, safeguarding means protecting and supporting vulnerable adults who aren’t in a position to protect themselves and so my definition might be different from the officially accepted definition and since you can be someone with capacity and still be abused and mistreated by family or other people but the way law works in this country to protect older adults if you consent to give your son your money, um and you have full capacity um, it would be quite difficult to apply a safeguarding approach.

Um

Whereas, the reality is that um, you may consent and you may make a perfectly ration choice but you may have little choice in fact, so these things aren’t quite as they seem.

Yea

But in those days we talked about child protection if we talked about anything at all, mostly about child abuse and neglect and there weren’t posts to protect children except local authority children social work and some probation role as well because we certainly had people who’d neglected or mistreated their children and it was very common for parents, usually men to be prosecuted for not keeping their children, which you don’t see so much now…

No

…um, so the world has changed, a lot, but they were the sorts of things I did.

How long were you in probation…?

The probation officer that time for about 2 or 3 years, so by ’73 we’d lost children, just trying to think when the 1970 Act came in, I think it probably was ’71 or ’72 but I can’t remember now without looking it up. Um, so I did 3 years and then I went to a, a community work role, at um, place called Blackfriars Settlement in south London. There’s a settlement movement still exists but in those days they were social action centres doing mostly community work and welfare rights advice and things like that.

Um. What sort of people were you working with in..?

As colleagues or as clientele?

As clientele

As clientele I worked on a couple of estates that were very poor and vulnerable, I worked with individual people to some degree, I run a volunteer scheme that worked with frail elderly people and we had a families project that I set out where older people were linked with families and helped them manage shopping and families befriended them to a degree. I was involved, I remember, with Southwark council in removing a very, very neglected child so we still picked up the same issues, child whose nightie had grown into her, and picked up, the skin had actually grown over the elastic, she’d been left in the same clothes for so long, so...all sorts of things were..

Was this all council sort of run and administered?

Well my work wasn’t council run but the, the local authority children’s service was, was council run, yes.

So who were you working for?

Well we were a voluntary agency, Blackfriars Settlement, so we scrabbled for funding all over the place, had all sorts of movements and activity

What, what sort of funding streams were available at that point?

Mm. Some local authority funding, some private sector funding, we got a lot of money from Shell, we got help in kind from Shell, um, because companies could still give money to charities then and save on their tax bills, and Shell were just along the river in those days, um they printed all our handbooks and things I remember. We had a law centre, I can’t remember, that’s why there was a pause, how we had everything funded, lots of the work was voluntary, so our law centre solicitors all came in in the evenings and did it as a freebee. Um, met all sorts of interesting people there, Helena Kennedy was there who’s now in the House of Lords…

Oh, wow

…but she was a volunteer there at the time, so we did all sorts of stuff.

Yeah.

I, heaven knows who funded my work stream, I can’t- cannot remember. We had, we had things like adventure playgrounds as well and they, they would’ve probably been council funded but… who knows. All sorts.

Yeah. You mentioned there was a settlement movement, what sort-?

Well there’s still a few settlements, Blackfriars was one, there were one or two in the east end. The settlements were set up erm, by the universities after the turn of the cen- the twentieth century and people did voluntary work and lived in them.

Ah…

So, I don’t know how many are left now but there were five or six of them at least about then.

Am I right in thinking in that Toynbee Hall was that sort of things?

Toynbee Hall was a settlement, yeah.

Okay, that’s interesting. Erm, so I mean presumably you’re entire professional career has been spent in London then, sounds like?

No, but most of it.

Most of it.

Most of it.

Where did you move on to after?

After that I worked in probation service again in south east London, which was Croydon, Bromley, Bexley – setting up what was called a community service. Again, community service still exists but it was brand new then, and it was meant to be an alternative to prison, and we were very keen to make it an alternative to prison. We worked a lot with voluntary agencies and ran all sorts of projects, and we may have been different from some of them because of the background I’d come from. Erm, so we had offices in each of the local authorities and our head office, which was in Penge, near Crystal Palace, we did all sorts of things. We sent groups of offenders out doing building and gardening and things like that. We did silt stream work and printed posters and did all sorts of stuff and a lot of our staff were volunteers as well although they could be paid to do their supervision work. Erm, as I said the key was to erm, get them coming in and doing the work, erm was a huge issues, we were very- we got inspected once, we only had one not turn up, and we raced out and got him. He was apologising I remember, in front of the inspectors for not coming in soon, and we were really tough at chasing them and getting them in, whereas nowadays I don’t think they are. I think they just go back to court if they don’t turn up. But we were very keen on getting them in and very keen on getting people who would otherwise had gone to prison, but they were a bit of a handful [laughs].

So was that the sort of beginnings of community service?

It was the beginning of community service for offenders, yes. They were new orders when I was involved.

What was your feeling about that sort of scheme being set up? Was it something you were positive about?

Well yes that’s why I went to do it, but I think the way we ran it and the way many people ran it in those days wasn’t the same as nowadays. We did send people off to National Trust at Petts Wood, chopping down trees and things, but on the whole we aimed for individual placement for people, and, and tried to make something mean- meaningful, it’s just some of them weren’t very safe to link up with frail elderly people, so you had to start them off at very practical work.

Mm.

As clearly you didn’t want to put anyone at risk.

No, absolutely not. Was it, I mean, was it, you said it was quite hard work to get these people to turn up to the-

Well we made them turn up, but we, we as, we, we all raised out after them and made them come [laughs]. We did sometimes have people not turn up but very rare because it was very embarrassing for them to have the sort of social worker looking people knocking at the door and ringing the door bell and things.

Mm, yeah.

I don’t, I really don’t think that happens nowadays. It may occasionally but we were very keen on taking high end offenders and making them do something.

Did you have quite a good success rate eventually?

Well who knows what the long term success rate was? Our success rate at the time, it was measured, was good. But you have to go on measuring these things for years, and most offenders stop offending. Only a few of them carry on and on. An awful lot of male offenders in particular start to stop offending by the time they’re thirty. Or stop getting caught by the time they’re thirty. And persistent offenders are a different category, so it’s hard to tell because I, not familiar with how long the research went on, but we knew we were taking people who would’ve gone to prison otherwise, because we did a lot of work on that. And we knew the majority of ours were not re-offending. But, we would’ve preferred to have done more extensive research than we could about whether people were actually able to change their lives. And employment was not a huge issue at that time, so if you could get people going their chances of getting into meaningful work were higher erm, whereas that’s always been a problem for offenders, when employment is scarce because nobody wants to employ them.

Yeah.

Even if they are reformed, so they don’t have a chance. And I think public attitudes were less punitive then, actually.

That’s very interesting.

That is my experience, because I remember a punitive approach coming in during the Thatcher years. I remember, because I was fair-, a little, not very, but fairly active in the Labour party, and we started to notice people on the doorsteps taking different attitudes, it was very interesting.

Why do you think the, sort of attitudes changed in that way?

Difficult to say isn’t it… Certainly it was politically endorsed. I think if feelings are regarded as negative by everybody they get at least suppressed, it’s the same with racism and anything else. If they’re regarded as more acceptable they get expressed. So I think there came a time when attitudes to offending certainly got more punitive, so it was alright to say, you know, prison was luxury, it should be harder, meaner, these people deserve to be pub- punished, whereas also probation officers in particular were from a school that was about reform and about advising, assisting and befrienders, which is what our role was. Erm, so, and it wasn’t regarded as a bad thing to do in those days at all. So erm… I guess all I can say is you observe attitudes change but only within the milieu in which you operate, and London is very different from other areas of the country and always has been.

Mm.

I think the police were much less popular in those days than in other areas of the country too, so that raised issues about why might people get into trouble that may or may not have been realistic, but certainly would have formed part of the community view.

Yeah, well I guess especially that gives some sort of context erm, to anti-racism work in Newham. I mean, is that a thing you have experience of or in other boroughs in London?

To a degree erm, my take on it, my interest in it was really about services that were inclusive rather than explicitly anti-racist, I would say. Erm, because my, me as a probation officer, responsible community service was still some way away from working in Newham, and erm, I went on to child protection work from, from that role in community service. And, my interests were really in, in why people got into difficulties and how you could empower them to take some control and keep their children safe, or help children to be safe, which was probably not at home. Erm, and it was very clear that in those relatively early days, services were not inclusive. They were not directed erm, at the whole community. It was very common for, as it still is, for the black children in care, erm few Asian children in care. Erm, but I remember a piece of research I did in my next role which was in Lewisham, showed us that the children that were most likely to be on what was then called the child protection register were children with relatively complex routes. So from families that were very mixed, not necessarily white families or black families, but families with a very complex heritage where there wasn’t parental or grandparental support, where young parents might be very isolated, where young women might make very dangerous choices of partners because they had no way of finding out what people were like in the way that can happen in smaller or more erm, closed community. So it definitely was, for a lot of people, about being isolated, and isolated from support. So that was the strand of interest I had, I guess.

Mm.

But I worked in Lewisham for a long time before I came to Newham. Erm, then I came to Newham as an assistant director and then as director. And Newham was a very different kettle of fish from Lewisham in those days.

What were the sort of main differences between the two boroughs?

Local authority was very different, much less subject to change, much less subject to opposition, there was no opposition politically. So anyone that wanted to go into politics joined the Labour Party – it’s still a bit like that, but it meant there were parties within parties, it meant that services were very old fashioned here. In, in Lewisham we had the most children fostered, I don’t believe we had more than one children’s home and that was on the way out, whereas here most children in children’s homes and the children’s homes were nearly all run by men, and actually pretty unacceptable men it turned out. And… most older people were either looked after by very supportive home care service, which did far more than people would get now, or in homes that were usually out in Essex, a few of them were here but many of them were out in Essex, and there was a whole push that made the council have to outsource those homes, because we, if we retained homes we didn’t get the same funding per capita as if they were outsourced to housing associations. All sorts of things were going on but I, I found the borough, it’s difficult to say this if this is for public use, because some of, you might have to edit it for me, but I found the borough fairly startling compared with Lewisham: much poorer, much more old fashioned, and it seemed to have less ambition of equality services at that time, though that changed.

Do you think that’s because, as you said, erm party politics was kind of, you know, a bit of a one party borough so there wasn’t any-

It was partly to do with that, it was partly because the same people had been about for a long, long time. Erm, this is a different area, and so there were different views about what was the right thing to do. Members selected members who were very actively involved in visiting homes, but they visited in a bus… you, we will have to edit this, but they visited in a bus as if they were higher status than the residents, and sat at a high table when the residents had their meals.

-Really?

-Yes. And erm, that doesn’t mean they weren’t caring, but there was much more of an issue here about the status of our clientele compared with in Lewisham, at that time.

Mm.

But I’m not saying everything was bad, in some ways the- Newham was incredibly committed to providing services, they were just relatively old fashioned services, I think. And so by the time I was director one of the interests in having services like SubCo was really about having services that would meet the needs of a changing community.

When did you become director?

-In nineteen ninety.

Okay. So I mean, from being sort of focused on children’s work, how did you become involved in SubCo which is obviously focused on-

-Because I was director of social services.

Oh right okay, so everything came on your remit then?

Yes, not education, but all of services for vulnerable people from nought to hundred.

Yeah. Erm, so-

So mental health services were ours, whereas a lot of them are health run now, even if they’re joint services. All the services for older people and home care, children’s services, they were all ours.

Is there still erm, I mean, what’s the body now that would-

Well there’s, there’s a children’s services department and an adult services department, and children’s services includes schools. Now a lot of local authorities have put them back together again and in my day we had youth offending under my ser- dep- department, and we had early years under my department, although that was a joint service between leisure, education and social care. But it had its own subcommittee with all three directors involved and jointly appointed posts, but they were in my per view, I was the lead officer as you like, as I was for youth offending. Erm, so it was different. And local authorities are highly variable-

-Mm.

-Now but they, they weren’t then. And the appointment of a director still had to be approved nationally.

Really?

Yes.

So was the body that would do that-

Well the department of health had to agree to it.

Mm that’s interesting. Was- do you, presumably that doesn’t still happen anymore?

No… And we had to be social workers, although my predecessor hadn’t been a social worker and had been director for a very long time. And erm, there’d been a special exemption made for him, which was interesting, but I was a social worker anyway. And directors of social services were expected to be in there for years, they haven’t needed to be now. Even in my day there were beginning to be people that weren’t, sort of come up other routes.

Was there a reason for that?

Social workers are professionals, risen and then fallen as a, sort of, an occupation of any status. We don’t even have our own body controlling our registration now, we’re included with health. Erm, so we’re registered by the health care and allied professions erm, body which is erm, not how things were. But don’t ask me about too much detail because I haven’t looked it all up and remember details and years, or not- misremember details and years. But anyway, we were separately registered body in those times, and you had to be a social worker to run the social services unless exceptions were made and I don’t think that lasted very young, I don’t think that lasted more than a year or so. Other exceptions were made pretty soon.

Yeah.

They must’ve been around the time I became director that that was changed.

So how did you first erm, hear about or become involved with what became SubCo?

I think this is where I may not be accurate, I may have to correct it, my memory is we had development posts in my department to erm, look at developing services that were more suitable for minority communities, and I think SubCo developed from some of that work, but there would’ve been a local wish for it as well, so… But my recollection as far as it goes was that we were looking to develop services that were more suitable and that was at least one of the streams from which this service and others grew, but it won’t have been the only thing. There clearly was community interest. I think there was a lot of concern that out existing services weren’t suitable. Our own fashioned, or people’s homes weren’t suitable. Erm, as I said there was a lot of debate about having the right staff, and of course a lot of politics as there is about gender and social care. About, whether our clientele are set to their goals or whether they had the right to choose a man or a woman and these things come to and fro even now. But on the whole most of us think that its better if a man or a woman can chose someone of the same gender if that’s important to them, and we tend to think it’s better and we did then, that someone can communicate with a client in their own language and understand what their concerns and traditions and diet would be. Erm, and indeed if you think about social work where you definitely didn’t necessarily match the clientele that there would be sufficient knowledge in teams to understand cultural differences. At the same time, because I’ve got this safeguarding protection background, there was a lot of concern that practices that might be cultural would still be abusive and so there was a lot of careful thought about what would be right services. I remember that about the time that we were having conversations about SubCo and other projects starting we had a frail elderly lady dumped at St Andrews hospital which doesn’t exist now, there’s a St Andrews wing at Newham, but was a St Andrews hospital which was just into Tower Hamlets, the other side of the Blackwall Tunnel, and there was a lady dumped there erm, and family had gone away and left her and she’d had no services and no support and hadn’t been picked up by anyone as a need. And the GP hadn’t picked up that this was happening, so we were aware that things would go wrong in, in even what was then pretty close-knit Asian community and you couldn’t necessarily accept that there wouldn’t be difficulties because the community was close knit. At the same time, we knew people were very anxious about local authority agencies and nervous of them. So it was important from my perspective to have services that were empowering and engaging, because I do believe that social works more effective and social care is more effective if you help people to help themselves. SO that would have been the routes of it from my perspective, but I may be leaving out all sorts of other people’s work I have no doubt.

What erm, sort of, particular challenges or needs did you think that SubCo would address, erm when it was founded.

Well, I think the obvious need was to have day time services that would support families with older relatives erm, that would understand difficulties that there might be and would be approachable if there were difficulties. It would be hard for me without getting all the documenting to go into massive detail because this wasn’t the only services that was set up, but its been a long lasting one. And there were other community services then so, already in existence, some beginning to form. Erm, and there certainly was a community focus within the department but we had something like two or three community workers: they’d been in post before I came. I didn’t determine those posts but they saw their role very much as looking to develop resources within the community and I would say its pretty unusual social services department has community workers in it nowadays.

Mm.

So that was something that was very positive in Newham… I think, although I’ve talked about services being old fashioned, there was a developmental focus here that perhaps hadn’t been in Lewisham, I think its fair to say. I guess that’s partly one of the very positive issues from, from the council perspective. The other side of that was that it meant that there was sometimes more energy going into new services than in improving existing services. And I remember with the departments then raising we had, I was involved in service closing down at some point around the same period erm, over in East Ham where we felt it was a very, in inverted commas, white service and it was really probably not that suitable for anyone it was so traditional. Erm, but it was much appreciated by some elderly white people who’s families had moved away and it was quite common to have people who’s families were way out in essex who were still themselves based here, which is probably less common now, there was still an issue. And, because when I was in Newham, elected members were thinking about newham to be a place where people would stay and not simply a place of transition, which is I guess why some of the developments in docklands and round the now Olympic Park or queen Elizabeth park seemed important, because it became obvious that people that wanted to better themselves might want better housing and if it wasn’t here then they would move. But that, that’s a rather vague conversation about how it started. No doubt other people were telling all sorts of other things because my view would be partial-

Yeah. Well I suppose everyone’s you know, everyone has their own-

Yes, but I haven’t been in a position to get my files and read them.

No.

Heaven knows where they all are now anyway, but erm-

You mentioned there were other sort of community groups set up. Were they predominantly focused around providing care or provisions to a particular sort of race, background or a particular national community?

Well… with and for disabled people because there was a big issue about services for disabled people being much more user lead then provided by the well-meaning, for those who needed help. That was a huge issue for us and was something I was very interested in when I came. And the same with mental health services. So it wasn’t only about ethnicity erm, but the community is very different now I would say. We didn’t have eastern European living here much then, and the Jewish community which is just, I would say, almost completely gone was still here to some degree then. But no, I think broad movements, less around older people for themselves but particularly around mental health and learning difficulties, and the learning issues were very complex because clearly families get very anxious about the safety of empowering their erm, children with learning difficulties, its very complex indeed then. But there was no real adult safe guarding approach, although it was known about and there was, during my time as director here, there were concerns about safeguarding. But they were much more basic, less well researched; tended to be lead by the voluntary sector I would say, not entirely, but to a degree, and I guess other issues were about trying to have a staff that reflected the community as best we could, trying to create some posts that you could erm, fill to enable you to match the community, and trying to have services that were suitable for the community. But it was relatively simplistic.

Mm.

I guess.

Err, do you think that the sort of Asian community was fairly, erm I don’t know what the word is, not homogenous, I mean within the Asian community clearly you have sort of, people from various national backgrounds or various-

Well it isn’t homogenous-

-Religions… were they a coherent, I mean, did they work well together or was it sort of times had changed for the… erm…

I’m sure it was a challenge and there were particular issues about erm, Bengali Indian and err, Pakistani families and the politics of division in the subcontinent were quite complex. Possibly, in some ways, more complex than now, erm maybe that’s not fair. The Caribbean community when I was working here tended to be from smaller islands and that had issues in itself. There was a huge issue for us around finding appropriate foster families and we weren’t doctrinaire about it, and of course there’s great criticism now about social work being too doctrinaire about placements, but we did try and reflect children’s background in the placing of them because our experience with all families including white families is if children are going home you don’t want to disrupt their total way of thinking erm, because you make it harder and if foster carers are working with families to try and support them to improve as opposed to local authorities looking to remove a child, it was particularly important that children didn’t have massive disruption and both families have some trust. Even if we were looking to remove children because we felt the family wasn’t safe that didn’t mean that the courts would agree. So to me, it’s foolish not to try and reflect the community within reasonable limits of safety and appropriate nutrition and so on. But some times that’s very hard, some families are so distraught or violent and angry that you have to place children elsewhere anyway. We had far too many children placed way out of Newham, talking about children rather than older people, so in Wales and out in south Kent and we wanted to change that particularly because that really meant it very hard for those children, and very hard for them to come back. So it wasn’t all driven by culture of ethnicity at all it was driven, to my mind, by need, but clearly the politics of that are complex. And some people would have argued that any Asian family is better than a white family for children. I’m talking to the birth parents, they may not agree. So you would want to gain cooperation from both parents. Similarly in those days we had lots of families with active high risk HIV, and mostly African families, and they might have a view that they would prefer a white family than an Asian family which they felt was nothing to do with their culture at all. Or they might feel their child would get on better in a white family and those were all things to discuss with parents I feel. Err, nowadays the department of Health and the department for education would both take a view that that would be very doctrinaire, and you certainly shouldn’t keep children waiting for a placement either. So these things are very complex.

Yeah, I suppose there was a lot to way up, there’s a lot to way up.

Yes, and you have a fostering panel, an adoption panel with independent people on and you have courts making some of these decisions, so that it isn’t only for the local authority to decide. Now with older people services erm, there’re a safeguarding services, but there’s somewhat less degree of scrutiny, so the thinking may be sometimes there’s complex erm, to me what matters is older people have an environment within which they’re comfortable, because nobody wants to go to a day centre where they feel patronised and put upon and that can be very hard for some one with dementia because you may have moments of lucidity where realised you are being patronised and put upon. These things are very difficult to manage, and you may be no better being patronised from someone from your own community than someone from another community. So these things are all complex I would say, but your confusion may be less if you’re within a community that can speak to you in your mother tongue, that can remember things that you remember.

Well certainly if you share similar cultural coordinates you’ll be able to have more of a rapport I suppose-

Well you’d hope so: people don’t always feel that, and this is where self-determination is complex.

Mm. Do you remember the first time you came to SubCo?

No, I remember coming here but could not possibly tell you the first time I came. I think it was still a, not SubCo when I first came.

Oh really? What was it-

No I think it was still a building being looked at, but I may be wrong. I remember where it was and I erm, had forgotten where it was but the front of the building was quite different now so…

What sort of things, I mean, would you come I suppose in an official capacity to-

Yes.

-Look at what they were doing and monitor-

But the thing I objected to with erm, erm the elected members like you have to be careful about these things. It’s very easy erm, staffing the department would’ve been more directly involved. It was very hard when you’re a director not to arrive and everybody saying, how’s your father? And how are you? And you’re not necessarily able to have a straight discussion about what’s going on and what services are. Quite an issue for all of us about how you actually see services as they really are.

Yeah.

But anyway, I will have come in an official capacity.

What sort of erm, things were SubCo doing when they were founded?

Don’t ask me too much detail about that because it would be in a bit of a blur from twenty-five years ago along with other services that I visited, but erm I’d probably need reminding- but I remember older people arriving for services and talking about what services they might need and I remember discussions in the community about what services might be needed and how they might be provided and whether lunch would be something useful or whether day care was useful or- there was a very strong anti-day care movement in many ways to try and help people be more independent. Or try and make- help life be more productive for people if possible. At the same time there was a discussion about deafness in the Asian community which, as I said, was quite a high rate partly because of erm arthritis and the climate here compared with people’s home countries. So there were a lot of complex issues to sort out including how dementia was diagnosed because it’s easy to misdiagnose an issue when some ones got dementia, when actually they’re hard of hearing, depressed. Depressing can look very like dementia. So we were having those sorts of discussions about older people’s services and how they can eb better provided. And so that would’ve been the context- I’m going into too much detail except I remember being in the building- going in too much detail, I think it’s a bit harsh on me, a long time ago…

No worries. Erm, you mentioned you did a lot of sort of consultation work with the community, erm how would that kind of take place, would you sort of-?

Well, there were staff in the department that would be going out doing all sorts of discussion. What I would tend to do more would be to go to large meetings and hear what people had to say, or occasionally speak at large meetings and they would hear what I had to say and argue with it, but erm, certainly the staff involved, we were mostly staff working to a race advisor looking at developing suitable services, or staff involved in commissioning. Erm, because we, we started thinking about commissioning and service development while I was here. Err, it would be then that we would be involved in discussing and identifying funding and developing services and finding erm, potential staff and volunteers and so on. But we had a lot of discussions with GPs as well- a lot. Some of them quite difficult and a lot of discussions with health, who were very interested at that time- there was a geriatrician here, who’s long gone, and is actually I think in Barking & Dagenham or Havering now- been at Barts when I worked at Barts- but he was here for a long time and very young at the time but isn’t now. And we had an older people’s service development grew- that discussed the range of services we might need and what might health services were required and what provision might be needed in hospital and so on. So we talked quite broadly to scope what might be able to be provided, and could we re-jig some of what we did… I don’t really know what came of it but we looked to transfer a lot of our homes to housing associations but retain some locally erm, that might be where people either had an initial assessment or erm, might stay short term and then maybe get home. The, the world goes round because now-a-days is thinking about NHS continuing care funding is something that is developed in the community rather than in hospital. While I was working in the NHS most people would get their funding while they were in hospital and it might be totally inappropriate because nearly all of us are much more vulnerable and dependant when we’re in hospital, and so assessing our needs is not ideal frankly.

Yeah.

So that’s what the, the department of health is requiring again now, that most NHS continuing care funding is erm, assessed and provided in the community and not through hospitals, but- And I was in the NHS until very recently, and people were stuck in hospital waiting for assessments. The arguments would be, with local authorities, about who would provide, and with families saying they wanted health funding because clearly health funding, is, is free whereas local authority funding is charge for. So, these complex issues were all around. Always have been.

Yeah. Erm, you mentioned also that there was a kind of movement against daycare. Erm-

Yes, particularly around mental health and learning difficulties, but for everybody because there was a strong notion that it’s now picked up with pension age and so up, about people maintaining their independence as long as possible and not being passive recipients. And that was particularly the case for, as I said, for mental health and learning difficulties that people should be able to have productive lives. But it was an issue with older people that comes and goes a bit.

Yeah.

And erm, it’s an issue we would think about as we get older because we don’t want to be parts, don’t we either.

No, definitely not.

It just hasn’t quite resolved itself for older people I think.

Yeah. Erm, I was also wondering if you gave staff any sort of special training or provision for working with erm, various racial groups or kind of being mindful to diversity as a whole?

Well we had a race advisor; we had community workers; we had, at one point, an inspection team which went off separately to a national body. But we had one for a long time when I was here. We would be inspecting services to make sure they were appropriate, and we would be wanting and expecting our staff to reflect the community and a lot of our thinking was if your staff reflected the community then the services had more chance of being right. I think we might be more sophisticated than that now. Erm, but we also sort to quality assure what we did to make sure we were concerned to understand where individuals and families were coming from, including in terms of their origins, their ethnicity, their culture, and we would train and manage our staff accordingly. A lot of that was procedurised in my day. I think there was a fair bit of work on reminiscence, but it tended to be very much focused in day establishments and residential establishments and particularly in the local authorities provision, and I think it’s thought about more widely now. Erm, I don’t think we sufficiently understood the impact of dementia, and I think that’s still changing. And of course those services are largely held by north east London foundation trust now, but erm, and very professional services. Whereas I think our thinking was more about what we’d expect social workers to understand and do, then they were under us rather than under a health trust, and what we’d expect our community staff to, to do and how we would support the community and manage it. So, I think times have moved on.

Were there lots of changes even during the period as head of social services?

Yeah. Constant. Constant. But, I’ve given you a very kind of, crude summary I would say.

Yeah.

Of how things changed. I think we felt our services were overwhelmed by asylum seekers at the time I was director and so much of our resources went to looking after families that wouldn’t be looked after now erm, but were our statuary responsibility that we had a whole wing of the department that was dealing with accommodating and supporting people erm, that swallowed up our resources and people- it was like the poorer people would be shoved from one borough to another erm, with local authorities looking to avoid their responsibilities. So it took up a very damaging amount of our resources in those, those years. And I think it’s probably a good thing that local authorities aren’t burdened with it in the same way, but of course it means that we have lots of people sleeping on the streets that, that weren’t then.

Do you think, I mean do you think there’s more homelessness now than there was?

Well there’s definitely more homelessness now than there has been for a while. Erm, these things have come and gone during my social work career. There was a time when London was full of homeless people and they disappeared erm, and all sorts of services were set up and in the years since I left Newham I was working with drug and alcohol agencies for a long time, and we were all providing a whole range of services ourselves for people because only the tough ones who tended to be ex forces would survive on the streets for very long. Erm, but we had services in everything from very primitive shelters right through to accommodation services. You see again, a lot of people, a lot of people have passed away in the cold spells this winter, erm that wasn’t the case until relatively recently so, that’s not about social workers, it’s about income and accommodation. And I think some of the debates we had about, were about what’s more important. And certainly, when I worked for Barts’ Health, which I did for some time, there were huge issues about whether accommodation was more important than health because we know that if people don’t have accommodation they tend not to survive well.

Mm.

And that’s carved off from what many local authorities do- not entirely, but very substantially. Local authority rolling housing is far, far less than it was in my day.

Was there a reason for that or was it just sort of taken out-

It’s a matter of legislation. And government approach. And of course, housing association provision is very secure, but erm, local authorities have been selling off their properties for a long time now. And there’s, of course, concern about the need to have local authority provision, or local authority accessible provision, again, but that wasn’t the case. So these things come and go as I’ve said. In many local authorities adult services linked with housing and children services linked with education and that’s why social services were split. What I’m saying is I think the evidence is if you don’t have decent accommodation your health and wellbeing is very, very severely affected.

Yeah. I think that’s, I don’t know, would seem sort of almost immediately apparent surely?

Well it wasn’t apparent. It, it’s obviously sounds completely, it sounds completely obvious but it wasn’t apparent, and it clearly has been a huge issue for health in particular, who has no health service has no facility to accommodate people. So some of the work I’ve done since being in Newham has been about discharging people safely from hospital, and if they get discharge to the street they are not safe. So this has been a huge issue for the NHS, as now the issue is bottled up very significantly about charging people if they cant prove who they, well all sorts of people, not just people with a right to stay here bec- but who’ve come from abroad, but people erm, who are definitely indigenous but have no passport, may have been passport and had it stolen, or may have never had one, have difficulty in getting health services as well as accommodation services, and bounce between local authorities. So old style homeless people, one of the vulnerable groups, about getting a whole range of services, and clearly, the understanding hasn’t been there but these services are all interconnected whether we know it or not.

Mm.

And I think local authorities have always been troubled that if there, in inverted comments, too generous then they may attract vulnerable people from elsewhere, and that isn’t necessarily associated with a particular political party.

Yeah.

I know elected members felt we were too generous and that’s why we had more asylum seekers, and it certainly wasn’t the case.

Really?

Mm.

Why do you think Newham attracted more asylum seekers?

Because there was a community here already… And if there’s a community erm, people will have relatives and they’ll gravitate to where they no someone or have an address on a piece of paper.

Mm, absolutely. Erm-

Also where there’s cheap accommodation people will gravitate towards that.

So, presumably Newham-

Had very cheap accommodation, and it was one of the reasons why the council wanted to have better accommodation.

Just thinking about erm, other community organisations, I mean have many had the longevity that SubCo has?

I couldn’t tell you that because I haven’t worked in Newham since I worked in local authority. Erm, but I know there are others because I occasionally here of them, or from them. There’s some that have had a longer life than SubCo but its done pretty well, it’s great isn’t it?

Yeah no, it seems to have-

But I mean some of the things I was involved in, Blackfriars Settlements, still exists. That’s really nice from my point of view as well.

Yeah it must be nice to-

Yeah, if you set up something or, someone else sets up something that meets a real needs it going to carry on.

Yeah.

Funding, I’m sure it gets tougher and tougher and tougher as the money is tighter and tighter. And its no surprise to me that SubCo gets individual payments for older people and looks for its other funding elsewhere because local authority block grants for everything that passed, very much, not entirely but-

Is that something that changed while you were still-?

Oh we- no, we gave out a lot of block grants and we required information about who got services, but it wasn’t the same as individual budgets. We were only just begininning individual budgets.

Could you explain the difference?

Well an individual budget is to meet the assessed needs of an individual, and it will be met by health and social care depending on what the budget streams are for that individual. That was at the very beginnings of its development, both in terms of legislation to inform that way of thinking and practice. It was very new and most of our services were block services that people might be referred to.

Mhm. So you’d fund the service rather than the individual?

Yes. You might require the service to evidence its performance, and the difficulty with individual funding can be that services aren’t required to evidence their performance in the same way. So that is an issue about individual funding because each social worker will be thinking about their clients. And that may not be the safest way to ensure that there’s real change for people.

Mm.

So people may be trapped in services that they can step beyond.

Yeah.

Because they’ll be trapped within the limits of their assessment. It’s the same point I was making about NHS continuing health care assessment. If you assess someone in a geriatric ward in a hospital they may be still a bit ill even though they’ll be well enough to go home they may be still a bit confused, they may be very anxious. You may not see what state the home is in. You’ll be relying on a social worker to tell you that or an occupational therapist so your assessment may be narrow, and it may be very difficult because it’s meant to be a then and now assessment to judge whether someone’s going to deteriorate or not. The same will apply with an individual social work assessment of someone. Umm, they may improve, they may not. We know for example that some people are considered to have dementia when they’re actually febrile. Erm, so just as children can be delirious its very common as you get older to seem extremely confused and you’ve just got an infection, so all these things can be a problem and you may set standards that are different for an individual agency, though of course its also subject to inspection now, that you might have set in terms of a block grant. And speak about that with most authority for things like drug and alcohol services where you will look for people to make significant improvements but it may be harsh to expect all the clients suddenly to start taking drugs and you may look for other things as well and that becomes much harder when you’re looking at individual funding.

Mm, absolutely. Umm, I think maybe just before we finish up, I was wondering if you have any particular stand out memories about working with SubCo or anything that happened here?

Well I always enjoyed it, erm and I’d like to walk round again. I probably should’ve walked round before, I might have recollected more myself. As an older person but erm… no, I might want to add something later if you’ll allow me to.

Absolutely, yeah.

But as I say I have no access to my own documentation and I happen to know its long gone a load of it so.

Mm.

We did use to have a whole huge office full of filing and I know it wasn’t kept.

Just decided not useful anymore so got rid of it all.

And there is a limit to how much you can keep.

Absolutely yeah.

Because its your statutory duty to keep some of it, and there wouldn’t be a statutory duty to keep information about community services.

Mm. Erm, well my final questions ends sort of leading from my last one. Why do you think SubCo always seemed to have a nice atmosphere, was there anything in particular about the way they worked or?

Well a little bit about the quality of staff and adequate selection of the clientele I would say. Erm, ive learned a lot but having been responsible for housing association services in my later career and when you accommodate anyone with any vulnerability, whether they’re a young person or a person with speech and language issues- I still do work for sense, the death, blind organisation for example- or people with mental health needs. You want to choose a group that will get on and support each other as well as have staff that are able to create a positive atmosphere because the two will play off, and if you give some poor staff team the most difficult clientele you may expect that they wont be bale to generate such a good atmosphere unless they’re all geniuses. So I think it’s a combination of selecting people properly and having a decent staff team, and without doubt good leadership. And I would say also adequate links to the community its serving because you won’t provide appropriate services if you don’t do that. And that’s why voluntary sector services can be terrible if they’re bad, but really brilliant and excellent if they’re good- that they will have stronger routes into the local community. Which is why I’ve always supported them, still do. And definitely having worked in larger voluntary sector myself I’m well aware that you would get some absolutely brilliant staff because some of the drive will be erm, personal, erm and not just professional. And that makes-

Do you think that comes from erm, like you said, an organisation that has a better basis in the community? Do you think that’s responsible for creating-

Well it’s about the relevance of its staff and the two will be interlinked, but to give you a different example in the drug and alcohol sector, it is very, very common to recruit people that are former clients. Now, you make a mistake with that they’re very high risk. Umm, you do it correctly and you’ll have people that are much sharper at knowing what’s happening and incredibly committed compared with a passing professional. And so, so long as you protect them, because they’ll work too hard, to the degree that it may not be safe, they will deliver a most fantastic job, and I think that applies in the voluntary sector. And it’s, it’s huge advantage, and as you say some of that’s about community links, some of its about who comes into those jobs. The danger in a, in a poorly run voluntary sector agency is that it’s not held to account in the same way and can be dangerous. And can treat people very badly. So, there’s always a quality issue. And inspection is all externalised now and that gives a certain sort of truth but it’s not the same truth as being inspected by people who know you, because people who know you know what to look for.

Absolutely.

People who come in with their questions set and an established team, they may be after you or not, but they won’t, they won’t actually know what to look for in the same. I would say.

Well, I think I’ve come to the end of my questions. Do you have anything more to add or are you-?

No, I might want to add something if I’ve walked round the building and had time to do some recollection and one of the people that was involved with me with some of this work is no longer with us, so she’s someone I cant talk to but erm, might help me to talk to some individuals that I worked with then and that would help my recall.

Hm, well absolutely.

Because its quite a long time ago and things do slightly blur [laughs].

Well, thank you very much for your time.

Your very welcome.

Its been very interesting talking to you so thank you for that.

Hope I haven’t got a parking ticket.

[Laughs] Yeah lets hope not.

There’s an ambulance out there, so…

The End

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_02

Interview Details

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Ramesh Dadwal

Project: Growing Old Gracefully - SubCo

Date of interview: 27/03/2018

Language: English

Venue: SubCo

Name of interviewer: Francis Ball

Length of interview: 1:39:21

Transcribed by: Francis Ball

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_03

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Interviewer

Interviewee

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[00:00:00]

It’s the 27^th of March, and I’m at SubCo interviewing Ramesh Dadwal as part of the SubCo anniversary project. Erm, just for the tape, could you tell me your date of birth, please?

It’s… my date of birth is 15/7/48.

And where were you born?

I was born in India, as, er, like, that part of that, er, India, was divided by that time. ’47 independence was. So I was in a part of India, and, er, I was born in Punjab in them days, but after that, where I was born, in ’62 that became like part of divided into Himachal Pradesh, which is called like mountains, er, Himalayans. I was born there. I [Pause]… I was brought up in three towns: Simla, Delhi, and Chandigarh. Most of my education was done in Chandigarh. It’s a, like, er, ‘city beautiful’, thus they call in India. It’s, er, like design by a French artist designer, and, er, I was, I was in Chandigarh from 1957 to 1968, when I came to this country. Done my graduation there. I came here in ’68. [Pause] I was doing some thesis on my Masters in economics, and I’m still here! [Laughs] Er… I worked… I… In my youth I was more want to do some physical work than the clerical work, so I was more involved in doing some loading this and that, and all that. I worked in them days used to be Idris in White Hart Lane. Used to be like a soft drink company. I worked there coup-couple of years as a syrup manufacturer. They do doing coca cola and Idris, like they used to have their own drinks. Then suddenly I end up in, er, brewery, which is Charrington’s, a closed shop, which is very rare anybody to get in like. I dunno how got in. I was the only Asian face in that, er, centre. I became a dray. Used to deliver beer to pubs and all that for them for nearly twelve years ‘til 1982. Then in 1982 I packed up, because that job is good for fifteen years, sixteen years. Cos I never seen a dray taking their pension, I didn’t want to die that work.

[Laughs]

And it’s a hard grafting.

So what did it involve?

It, it involved… A dray was like delivering beer to pubs, like Charrington’s, like to tied-in pubs and to managing pubs as well, going down the cellars. With the cellars, some are quite good cellars, some are very deep cellars. So dropping down twenty-two gallon or twenty-six gallon barrels. Doing all that. ‘Cos in them days like the pubs, okay, was quite… So Charrington’s became known as Bass-Charrington’s, now which is known as a Toby’s at the moment, the Toby Carveries, and that used to be like the Charrington’s them days. They have their depots in Tottenham. Mile End Road the centre, where they used to build pale ales and all that. Then they moved all the project to Burton and all that, and Mile End became dead. And they moved to Silvertown. And, er, then I decided to pack up. And… in ’82, ’83 I was involved a lot with Asian people as well to helping them in a day centre in Haringey, to helping people to understand… ‘Cos in them days the people were not… Very illiterate people came in ’60, ’61, then the people came, the ex-army, they didn’t know anything about it, so I was helping them to do their forms and all that. Suddenly I saw there was like a need to the people I was looking. The people were like stuck in small rooms, eight people, ten rooms, and again very, very like dirty places they were, like looking in them. And there’s not good places for them. Then slowly, slowly I found a… In ’89 I found a place, ASRA. I heard of ASRA. They want a few properties. That was Asian Shelter Residential Accommodation. And small form of ASRA. And I thought, ‘Why not I try there to help, if I can help my Asian elderly people?’.

Was that based in Haringey?

[00:05:00]

Er, ASRA was based in South London.

Mmm.

They had about four properties in Lambeth, that time, when I was, er, looked at it. Then they got some tied up little bit, er… They, they came to Canning Town, Canning Town Road. They bought office there. And they… In them days they start flourishing little bit, because there’s a Section 11 coming in for the Asian communities and all that.

What’s a Section 11?

Section 11’s were like some bit more support to Asians to, to bring them up to, because they, with the racism and the problems they had. So to bringing them up they were giving like a good response towards that. And, er, in ‘88’ I saw that they, we had in Plumstead they opened up a small sheltered scheme. Then they got the funding to do some project in East London. In Haringey they already had few properties, and East London, the first property that ASRA was building in XXXX [00:06:05] in Clarence Road XXXX [00:06:06]. And there was like few, er, five houses converted into ten flats in XXXX [00:06:12] Road here. And the people were not aware of sheltered accommodation at that time. It was a challenge for us to do that. And in them days like people would not understand the XXXX [00:06:32], the Indian pronunciation. So they wanted me to put some like, er, ‘Court’ or something like that, and I was insisting, ‘No. It’s an Asian… has to be some Asian name on it.’ And we won. End of they day we called it XXXX [00:06:47], instead of calling it Age Court, or something like that. That them days… Like, now everything is okay. Them days was very, very hard to pronounce to pronounce. Like even my name was very hard for them to pronounce. I was never… Nobody could call me Singh Ramesh. They always used call me ‘Singhy’. Right? It was very, very hard in them days. It’s like was very hard. And, er… So that was a project went in.

Sorry, just to, just to track back: you mentioned earlier that when you were at Charrington’s, for instance, you were the only Asian person there, you were the only Asian person in Charrington’s…

I was only Asian, yeah. Yeah.

… Yeah. Er, what was it like to work in a workforce as the only Asian person. Was it…

It was, to start, beginning, nobody accepted me. Cos like I was a black sheep. And one, one, one side that was because it was a closed shop. Even it was very hard for any native to get in there, local person to get in there, ‘cos like all uncles and nephews working in there, because was a cushy number. Right? So that was very hard for them to accept me as a… I had to prove myself better than them to be accepted. There was like a small group that came in that, one day, I was like a stand-by XXXX [00:08:08] that time, first to start with. So, one day, the one guy didn’t come, so they had to take me on the lorry, although the crew did not want to take me, cos they… you know. But they had no choice. They had to do the delivery. They had to take me. When they saw my effort, that from cellar I could sling a case of empty bottles straight on the lorry, they had a shock. Even they couldn’t do that, what I was doing. I could throw a twenty-two gallon barrel from the lorry into the cellar. I didn’t have to put it on the rope in there. This is like a good muscly on that one. When I came back to the depot, word went around that, ‘If you want to finish early, go with Singhy’.

[Laughs]

Next day everyone wanted to take me on the lorry.

Wow.

And when I was on the lorry like, used to go on the lorries, you know, they see an Indian, er, face, they used to say, ‘Oi! That’s Paki!” I say, ‘Oi! That’s my people!’. ‘No. You not Indian.’ That’s what they, you know, that’s what it was like. I became like one of them. And for them I was not any more Indian. I was just part of them. Even after one year I was union rep for nearly three years.

Wow.

So I was like… I was well… Then they start treating me very well. I was like the… To stay away from XXXX [00:09:42] I became dray. And I stayed as a dray all the time. I used to have small lorry. I could pick my own XXXX [00:09:50], I could pick my driver up, so it’s no problem whatsoever. I never had a problem afterwards. But to begin with, yes, there was a problem. The people were not accepting it.

[00:10:00]

And, and how did you find it moving to England originally, as well?

England?

Yeah, when you first came.

Hah! That’s a, er, history you’d like! I only came here for two months. I was doing my thesis on, er, Masters, as I said, like. I was doing my PhD on economics back home. I was… My tour was funded by government of India… part funded… And when I came here, everything was like meat, and I was born… not born… I am vegetarian from my childhood. Pure veggie: no egg, meat, fish, anything like that. And when I came here, I could not find anything veggie. All I could eat was rabbit food.

[Laughs]

So when I came to, er, London, to, er, stay, I saw Gujarati person. Some Gujaratis were from East Kenya. I saw their notice on, erm, newspaper shop: ‘Pay in cash. Vegetarian meal. Vegetarian, Indian meal.’ So I grabbed, er, opportunity: I went to them, I knocked their door, I say, ‘Can I… I’m here for a couple of months. Can I be…’, and the lady says, ‘Yes.’, and she showed me the room I’m sharing. I went in the room there. And, er, I was doing my paperwork and all that. Within a week, I fell in love with my landlady, and she’s still my wife!

Wow! [Laughs]

I’m here! [Laughs] I supposed to go back in two months, and I’m still here.

Mmm.

I did not came as a labourer or anything like that. I just come to study for a couple of months. Had a good job back home, as well. I was working with the treasury. And I, my friends, they have retired as lecturers from the universities and all that. And that’s what my aim was: to become a lecturer as well… But the fate was that I’m stuck here.

[Laughs]

So that’s, that’s my… came to this country.

Yeah.

I, I was not legal for, er… Because with the student visa you’re not legal. I was not legal until 1976. From ’68 to ’76 I was like an illegal you class it as. But that time I had two children with my wife, and in ’76 I was given, er, indefinite stay. Er, and I’ve been working since ’68, ’69. They had no problem. They gave me an NI card and all that. I was working… I was working legally. And I wanted somebody to send me back, quite honest with you. And that was the reason XXXX [00:13:04] Enoch Powell for that. I said, ‘For God’s sake send me back!’

[Laughs]

‘Cos, ‘cos if I go back because accept people who didn’t come back. Because I had a beautiful job there. In them days, when the people could not afford cycles, I had a 3.5 XXXX [00:13:21] under me. I was quite well off.

Mmm.

So I had no problem in that country as well. So I wanted to go back but I couldn’t. But then my fate was in this country…

Yeah.

… so I couldn’t help. My wife, she’s not Punjabi, she’s Gujarati. They came from East Africa. She couldn’t understand a word of my language. The only language she, because she was four years old when they came to England with her father, and she only code she could understand was English or Gujarati, and I didn’t know a word of Gujarati. And, er, so… But that was the fate.

Yeah.

We’re here, and we’ve got grandchildren now.

What part of London was that in?

Er, it was in Haringey.

Oh right. Whereabouts?

Hillfield Avenue.

Hmm.

Near Hornsey.

Yeah. Yeah, okay. ‘Cos I come up from, sort of, in Haringey, but a bit closer to Tottenham. Hornsey’s not an area…

Oh Tottenham?

Yeah, down there.

I’ve still got a property in Tottenham: Loxwood Road.

Oh really? Yeah, I know that.

Yeah, 25 Loxwood Road.

Oh, wow.

That’s where I’ve given to… That’s where I spent most of my time, from ’76 ‘til… Now my… I have given that property to my daughter, she’s still got it, in Tottenham.

Hmm.

That area, Loxwood Road, that is my XXXX [00:14:34].

Yeah.

Yeah. I was in Hillfield Avenue. I was in Rathcoole Gardens, in Hornsey. My daughters studied in, er, Inderwick Girls’ School… Hornsey Girls’ School.

I dunno that one.

Yeah. That’s in Hornsey near the police station, Inderwick Road.

Oh right, okay.

Yeah.

Was there a big Asian community in Hornsey?

[00:15:00]

No, it’s not… It wasn’t what it… There’s a lot of Punjabis. They came in. They were… they were like on Priory Road and Hornsey area. There was a first Asian shop was on Priory Road, on the corner. Bal Shop. Bal was his grocers. Then the Turnpike Lane start getting a little bit people, Asian people, in that area. It was a mostly… It was a Punjabi community.

Hmm.

Because they… Them days, there used to be two, three, er, big employers. One was XXXX [00:15:26]. They used to make cookers, pressure cookers. No, sorry: the cookers ovens, and all that. That was, that is now Tescos in… Edmonton Tescos. That used to be XXXX [00:15:36]. And there used to be… Next to it, there used to be MK Electricals. They used to do the all the switches and all the plugs. And, in Enfield, there used to be another one: Fergusons. They used… So they had like two, three big industries. And on White Hart Lane used to be Idris, which is now storage company. And next to it used to be Wonder… Wonder, er, Loaf. There was like with the Asians in, er, that. And, in Finchley, used to be Clarks Bakery. That they had their own shops.

Mmm.

‘Cos I remember Clarks Bakery, because used to, we used to do job brief. In them days like used to be: you go there at night, you do, do the breads and all that, and you get cash in the morn-, in your hand in the morning.

That’s nice.

We done that as well [Laughs] those days. It was quite like a good things, er… Lot of Asian community were there. Er, mostly it was Greeks. Turnpike Lane was like… If you go towards Turnpike Lanes, there was Greeks. And if you come to Hornsey there were Asians. The meeting place was everybody was Alexandra Palace. There used to be Ally Pally Pub on the corner at Alexandra Palace. But that was meeting place always used to be.

Hmm.

You have a drink there and, er… The Punjabis, that was the best thing for them, like: work, drink, home, and sleep.

[Laughs]

So, them days, like, that’s what it was like Haringey was.

Yeah.

Few Punjabi community from areas, like different areas, you can class it. Rathcoole Gardens, Hillfield Avenue, Inderwick Road… Like a few roads in that area. That was area that Jeremy Corbyn used to be manager of Labour in, from that, that area.

Hmm.

In them days used to live in Turnpike Lane. I worked with him.

Yeah? What did you do?

‘Cos I used to do translation for their in Indian, er, language...

Oh wow!

… all the Labour Party, them days. Jeremy and me. ‘Cos he was the manager that time.

When was that? In the ‘70s or ‘80s?

Er, ’70, ’71, ’72. When he became MP, he came to do opening ceremony one of my schemes. And he recognised me. He says, ‘You still here?’ I say, ‘Yes, I’m still here.’

[Laughs]

[Laughs] Oh yeah. It’s, er… Me, I worked with him as well. But I wasn’t much interested in politics, so I didn’t bother to get into that. But done translations for them, ‘cos, ‘cos what happened was that, er, you know, it’s like a fire really. You can call it classic like… One day I was just sitting there, and, er, one of my, the people I was living with, er, was friends, Punjabis, they were drinking. I filled their income tax form, and, er, within couple of weeks he got eight-hundred pounds refund. And in them days that was a big lump sum, in six-, ‘70s. And next day I knew. I just got up and there was a queue outside my door.

[Laughs]

People want me to fill their forms in and all that. We never like, er… So that put me into social work, social element. I did… I used to pay from my own pocket for that. Er, and then I realised how they were, like, even in the factories when they were… I seen them working, you know… They were treated like animals. You know, because they couldn’t speak a word of English, and they used to get that overtime, because they were begging for overtime, because money was the main thing in them days for the people. And they were treated, like, very, very bad, and I was very paranoid. And I want to do something. So when the opportunity came to me… We started the Asian centre in Haringey, in, er, there. I worked on that project, then I done work some, helped out in Asian centre in Hackney as well. So when I was with this… As I said that when ‘88 I found a place with ASRA to do something positive, and I knew there’s some organisation behind me.

Mmm.

[00:20:00]

So then I knew something… We have to do something. And when I came to ’89 in Newham, and I found some, lot of dedicated people to who wanted to do something for the community. So that’s how the group came in. She… I knew her from before even she got married, Taskin. So she was so much involved in that, to the… She wanted to do something for the elderlies. She was doing some project on Romford Road, and she was doing, er, Carlton Road as well. And…

Wh-what made you move to Newham from Haringey?

Newham was like a challenge for me. ASRA gave me a challenge, that: ‘We got thirty properties, and we giving you six months to fill them up.’ ‘Cos when we advertised and all that, all we had was two applicants.

[Laughs]

Nobody wanted to know.

Why do you think you only had two people respond to the adverts?

Because there was no… See, there was no PR work done. That the people did not know anything what sheltered accommodation, what it is. To them was like… You know the… I give you an example, right? I… When I was interviewing a lady who had come to me, they said, but just so you’re aware we both talk in their language, and she start swearing at her son, daughter-in-law: ‘Throwing me this and that, and throwing me into this home. And I did not XXXX [00:21:23] my son for this.’ You know? Because it’s a myth like the son has to look after the mother, or the parents, we have. But the elderlies did not understand, them days, that the accommodation here is too small. Somebody has to sacrifice. You cannot be like stuck in two rooms, the family, the children, and the parents, and all that. So there had to be some sort of sacrifice. Somebody has to move one. But there’s, er, facilities available. They did not… Nobody is aware of that.

Mmm.

So to wake them up, we worked day and night. We used to go to temples, Sikh temples, everywhere. And I filled that place in three months.

Wow.

That was my project here. In Newham I start, ’89 I came in. Now they have, all that, these sheltered accommodation, they have waiting lists. Them days we had to drag people to bring them in. We used to work whole night. Taskin knows that we used to sit with them. Two o’clock in the morning as well, we heard the story a hundred times. We used to against… We have to tell them must be hearing first time. They used to swear at their children, specially daughter-in-laws. And the son, ‘Oh! He’s a hen-pecked son, so threw me out and this…’

[Laughs]

But then once we built up the rapport with them, they appreciated what we done for them. We put the life in them, er, ‘cos that was like living them. That was different ‘cos I was a residential worker. So I was living with them. Twenty-four hours I was stuck with them as well at the same time. So you could understand how the things went in. And people like, they were not prepared. That, that generation was not prepared to be separated from their children.

How did you find it, living with the elders in the…?

Er, to me, because I came from a joint family, so I had no problem whatsoever. To me I never treated them to begin with, I did not treat them as, er… I did not want to be professional with them completely, although it was my professional business. But I wanted to deal with them as their own son, as their own relative, as their own friend, to bring them out of their shock what they had coming in. You know, it was very hard. It was hard work, but I had a very good support from my wife, and from my daughter as… I say a couple of daughters. They, they were very supportive. They will help them. Like my… I’ll give you my, er, second daughter, if she’s standing on the road with her boyfriend, or something like that, and she see one of the resident carrying her bags, she will not just stand there. She will tell her boyfriend, ‘Hey, come on, take her bags to the centre.’ And first they would talk about her XXXX [00:24:28], ‘Oh, your daughter was standing with a boy.’ But they appreciated what they done for them. So… But, you had to work with them. I, I was available to them. My door was open 24 hours. I never locked my door. They could walk in my h-, my flat, two o’clock in the morning, four o’clock in the morning… I was still there. For them. So… to talk to them, to put them to ease, sit with them, if I have to sit all night.

[00:25:00]

So, we. we used to like work that way. So we can, you know, bring them up. And then we build the ties with their own children as well, at the same time. So, encourage them that, ‘Your son is coming today. What you cooking for him?’ So coming in, taking them out. So they’re slowly, slowly… It took me some time to build it. And we did built it. As Taskin was telling you, that I got the funding for the holidays. I fought for that funding: £10,000. First time, I took them to Spain, a coach from here.

Yeah.

We stayed in Estartit. Took… They never went on holidays, them people. We went to Estartit, and, er, there’s couples, there’s singles, all. We’re… There’s no Asian food. How we gonna live without it? We’ll think about it! So I took them to a hotel there we stayed at XXXX [00:26:00], husband, wife… There’s some Asian attendances like they old age people. A couple, husband comes to me: ‘I don’t sleep with… I can’t sleep with my wife. Can we have two single beds?’ I say, ‘Yes. You’ll have it. No problem whatsoever.’ And I’m an idiot. Come the evening I had a double bed for them. To put them… He’s come back to me: ‘Ramesh, I’ve got a double bed.’ I say, ‘Sorry uncle. They didn’t have the two single beds for tonight. Stay there tonight. Tomorrow morning I’ll get you change in there.’ Come next day, I said to uncle, ‘You want to go to the single bed? Can I move you?’ And answer from that guy was, ‘First time in my life I’ve seen my wife. I don’t wanna move.’ He stayed with her on the double bed. That made my day.

Wow.

That was like vote for me, to do what I’ve done. And next couple of days, we were walking on the Mediterranean Sea, and I saw like mostly, our Indians, men is going there, and the wife is there. They never walk together. And I saw them, just standing on a corner, I saw slowly, slowly slowing down, catching up with the wife, and he is looking round as well, grabbed her, gave her a kiss. That made my day. Like, that was success for me. And when we came back from that holiday, ‘til now, the first thing that they do, they look at my face: ‘Ramesh, when we going on holidays?’

[Laughs]

This is like… This is a success, where we, like, we proud of.

Yeah.

So that was like a… Then I used to have like a small group, like senior groups, Asian groups.

What you mind…

… local area…

… telling me more about the holidays, ‘cos they sound…?

Holidays, you want to know…? [Laughs] Well that was like a… First… That was the first holiday we done, by coach, to the Spain. And, er, there, that time I took them all around like Barcelona, they done Barcelona, we went to Modena, like Modena and all that photo thing. Erm, the food was… The main thing for them was like nourishing food, and I made sure no Asian food. I had non-veg and veg, and veg I had like a lot of salads for them, a lot of cheeses for them, and, like, they used to make them like some vegetables, and all that sort of thing, but have them brought vegetables. And the bread: they loved it!

Yeah.

But I had a bottle of Tabasco sauce with that. I say, ‘You want a chili? That’s over there. But enjoy this food.’ I say, ‘Makes a change instead of Asian, India... I brought you on holidays. You’re gonna enjoy. Some their food is a bland food although.’ And they were quite happy. Some ladies, like they were vegans and all that as well isn’t it? They won’t touch milk. Okay. They had like tomatoes and they loved it, because Spanish tomatoes and all the salad: the taste is fantastic. So they, they enjoyed that. They got used to… Eventually they get used to it, and, er, it was quite good, like, hotel had a swimming pool. They… In them days there was swim-… Swimming costume wasn’t anything. They were going in their petticoats and blouses and going in the swimming pool. I was quite happy with that. So that was my first adventure with them, and, er, the coach trip was like… That time we went non-stop, seventeen hours. And that was a long journey…

Mmm.

… from here to Estartit.

[00:30:00]

Wow.

So… Was seventeen, eighteen hours. They end up on a whole night driving, so that was… It wasn’t that bad. And, after that, we’ve done a lot of trips. Like done most Europe. We done couple Spain, like, er, then we done Lloret de Mar and all that, then we done Italy, Switzerland, er, Germany… France done so many times, that they done so many times them. Then they got too excited. They wanted to do… Done Dubai with them. Er, then they wanted to go to Far East. Done with them Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore…

Wow.

We’ve done that. And, er, lot of trips like then… After that lot of trips went on. But them trips were most involved. Then I come back to them trips once I come into SubCo with you, ‘cos then I… You know… That, that trip was before SubCo, we started SubCo.

Okay.

That, that trip was like with them. Then I found like… Yeah, so came back from that trip, and it was quite success.

Where did the money come from for that?

Er, there was, er, partly funded by the council. Like, they… Like say that I got a grant ten-thousand, er, £500, er… Yeah, there was like £200 per person, they give us that. The rest of the money, the people contributed towards it. Like in them days it only worked out ‘cos very cheap to go to Spain. I think it was two-fifty… They have only paid about fifty, sixty quid each to… And they were quite happy after that. Then the funding… Then I had another funding where, where I took people on a night cruise from, er, near Clacton, say Harwich, to Belgium. Overnight’s cruise. That was nearly hundred people I took.

Wow. It seems…

Big coaches…

… like a lot.

So it was… That was another £10,000 funding I had. Not… That wasn’t from council. I stitched ASRA for that.

Was it difficult to…

But…

… look after a hundred people?

A hundred people like. I had a good staff, good helpers, good groups and all that sort of thing like that. So they… We done that as well at the same time.

And this was all with ASRA?

Organised by me.

Organised by you.

We do the organising. It’s me and Taskin mostly. I used to organise most these trips myself, but with the help of some like… We sued to get some specialist as well, and, er, some like I do it myself as well. Remember when… We cut the middle person out of that, so gives a little bit of a discount. So used to help that sort of things, was quite good in that. So when we came back like ’90 or ’92, I saw there’s a need for day-care. But I was looking for it like… Taskin, we were as a group sitting together, and we were think-, and we were sitting that... We’ll keep on chatting, we’re talking about, chatting about, ‘There are a lot of day-centres, but there’s nothing specialised, care for the people with the difficulties, learning difficulties, or mental health, or any physical, ment-…’ Because in them days we found that people in, er, ’73, ’74, the Idi Amin when the Uganda problem came out, the people, when they came, came with a lot of mental distress. And that, like that was building in. It was not coming out from them. And that, that was affecting their health. A lot of problems and all that. And we looked at it, said, ‘Why, why is not we are looking at that, er, situation and, er, sort?’ So we wanted to do something specialised. And suddenly, come February, and the is, as she was telling you that, sitting with them and says to me, ‘Ramesh, I’ve got £40,000 in my pot, spend in two weeks.’ I said, ‘Give me two hours, I’ll spend it.’

[Laughs]

And, er, they says, ‘Yes! All your forty-thousand.’ Within five minutes I bought a minibus, I bought, er, equipment for the kitchen and all that, I say, do that sort of thing. And that’s how we… SubCo… And then we didn’t know the name, what name should we like.

[00:35:00]

We wanted some different name; not just Indian Organisation, or something like that. And Ramesh Verma and all that, we were sitting in there, all of that. Suddenly Ramesh, er, Ramesh came out from, er, Ramesh Verma, ‘cos she does all the XXXX [00:35:13] work, and I used to do like, because of the same name, I used to get the credit as well! [Laughs] And, er, Ramesh Verma, she came up with this name. Er, she says, ‘What you think SubCo?’ Said, ‘Subcontinent’. Everyone says, ‘Yes! That is it.’ And that’s how the SubCo came out…

Wow.

… from the, er, that. So we’ve got completely different name. In them days was, er, Asian Workers Association, East African Association, this and Asian… And we didn’t want that. We wanted like cosmopolitan. And we, from the, we, as we were all together, we said, ‘First of all, keep the religion out of the centre. You can do religion in religion places. Let’s mix them, put them together, and give them a service.’ So this was like… that’s all comes up. And slowly, slowly built up with one person. That used to be… She used to be in council that time. We have a girl called Anjum Mouj. Erm, and XXXX [00:36:18] they… We started that, the kitchen that… I think she… XXXX [00:36:23], she was my first kitchen cook. Because I don’t specialise and all that, and er… We started this centre from the day one.

Was there, erm… You mentioned getting all the people of different religions together; was that challenging at times or was it…?

Huh?

Was it challenging to…?

It was. It was challenging in them days. What was happening… Because people were have their own small igloos. Like small communities there, small community there… They didn’t know. Very hard to mix them together. You know, it was like you can class it not, not only racism like when we work in like, ‘Oh I smell fish and chips, oh I smell this…’ ‘Cos in between as well, like Punjabi six in and all that. It was very hard.

Mmm.

Er, the people who came in ‘60s and all that, it was hard to bring them out to this sort of conception. The people came from East Africa, they wanted to explore these services. So very easy for us to beginning. I had a lot of Gujarati people, clients come in here, even XXXX [00:37:29]. Very hard to get the Punjabi clients, or the Muslim clients, er, ‘cos they thought I was a Hindu and all that. The Muslim, what they gonna do in… It’s like religion was also, in them days, a lot of play the game was playing and that. But, slowly, slowly the people, the needs, they understood what we meant. We were not just a walk in centre; we were, like, trying to do something specialised. And to begin we had a problem like, er, first food problems, meals on wheels problem. We started that as well, ‘cos, er, Asian meals was a job and a half in here. And we won the tender. The meal we provide… They called us for the tender. The dish we cooked, none of the councillors or anybody seen in their life. It’s called, it was like a mixed vegetable. In Gujarati they call it undhiyu. And the staff came to me and said, ‘So, Ramesh, what should I have.’ I said, ‘Take undhiyu’. We took it, and they loved it. And straight away we got the contract…

Wow.

… doing that. And, er, then Taskin joined me, er, as well, because she was, she was looking for a job share, and she wanted to. And, er, I could not find better person than her, quite honestly there. Although we had like choose other people, well she was a gem. And she… We wanted some people who are dedicated to do some work, not for the just for the… Everybody needs money, don’t get me wrong, but dedication is something which you need as well. And this girl had a dedication. And, er, so… Since she started with us, think we’re flourishing. We have… We had a bad time as well; we went through bad patch.

Wh-… How come?

Er, when the council, er, change from funding to the individual grant, that was a very, very bad patch of nearly a year-and-a-half, and we didn’t even have a pot, money in our pot to keep salaries. Well, some of the staff they stuck with us. They stood with us that time when we needed… We explained to them, ‘Look, this is what is happening. Although the money is owed by council, but we not getting it, so are you…’ Some of the staff, we never paid them for two months, three months sometimes, could not pay.

[00:40:00]

Wow.

Or sometimes like, er, we could pay them for ten days salary. But we stuck together; we came through bad patch. We came through that as well, and… The name built is like the… It’s not only that. We are a paper organisation. They deliver the service. What we meant, we delivered. We did not know… We extended from that. So even like you can see these things coming up, because of their hard work, and as from the beginning I said like holiday that was my craziness. When I came to SubCo that was, again, it was my madness. And Taskin was not in that… Then I had to force her. I said, ‘Look, darling, you doing that as well, yourself.’ So she helped me in that, and I’m most probably I think I’m the only Asian organisation which has away days in Dubai, Sharm-El-Sheikh, and in Marrakesh, and also in Casablanca. And on 4^th, I’m having away day. Where? In XXXX [00:41:23]

Is, is that something you still do, the holidays and the trips?

Er, it’s like when we do that, we do… Because what happens is I take the away day. We do away day.

Uhuh.

The management committee and the committee. Erm, I’m going to Tunisia on the 4^th. When we do that, we have a budget.

Yeah.

This is my budget for, er, away day. Right. Now, I XXXX [00:41:51] Tunisia, so I can pay that much in the budget for your away day, rest, if you can contribute, you can have a holidays plus away day. So what happens is the committee that contributes like, for example, now, if the holiday is costing me £500, and I’ve a budget for £200, for my away day: I say, ‘Look, I have a budget for £200; how about you putting in £300? And you have seven days there, but three days are mine. You gotta give me three days to work for the SubCo...’

Mmm.

‘… And evenings and all that is yours.’ That’s what happens. So they contribute towards it, and we pay that. So instead of having away day just round here we take them away, and they can’t go nowhere. They have to work. [Laughs]

[Laughs]

So this is why that’s what we do, like. We done Dubai, er, Casablanca… Dubai I’ve done twice. Casablanca… As I said, on 4^th, I’m going to Tunisia. We’re back on 11^th.

Wow.

So… We done away days mostly places… Isle of Wight… We done local explore. We done in Paris as well. So this is what we do, like, you know, encourages them to travel as well, to enjoy, plus work. And, once you are away, your minds are more fresher, you can come up with new ideas, you can come with some… we get some new ideas what we can provide better service to the elders, how we can make their lives better, how we can [Pause] give them a good satisfaction in their last days. You can class it like. Or you can say it, I’m preparing them for myself! [Laughs]

[Laughs]

I’m 70 years old, so why not I have something to look forward for? This is like, this was like, er, exclusive services what we provided, I think, XXXX [00:43:54] organisations. As you can understand, the last year where we were shortlisted for the silver award.

Mmm.

And we were the only Asian community there… centre there. And we were the fourth to receive the award on that one. So it shows that we have… The staff, the s-… The group has done so well. And staff… The stability in the staff is quite good, yeah. Very little movement. They love it. I don’t know why, but they still stuck with us.

Yeah.

And I’m stuck with the chair since from day one. I’m still in the organisation.

How did you, erm, get the building here?

Building? What was happening like when… This used to be an Asian centre before. When, er, when, when they, when they offered me the 40,000, they said like, ‘Spend it on all that.’

[00:45:00]

‘Cos there was a opportunity for the… because we were going on the, er, that there’s a need for the elderlies, and the Social Services (Deborah Cameron and all that), they were looking at it. ‘Cos there’s a need for it. And the centre was… This is a social services building. So the building was a part of it, with the funding, that you’ll get the building.

Oh, okay.

So that time like it was on a five year’s lease, ten year’s lease. So then they carried on from that. So this is on a leasehold property. It belongs to the social services. We done work on it. It was a very small building. We have done all the… All the work has been done, like extended you’ve seen, five-star toilers they have built it. So we have like, bring it like… We tried to bring some, er… It was like you can call it like dump yard when I, when we took over this building. So we worked hard. We had some volunteers. Taskin’s husband is a plumb-, a builder. He helped us a lot. He used to give us free of charge. He worked so many times with us. So he, like… The community has helped us a lot. The… They… Not financially, but physically they have helped us a lot. So… In financially as well, sometimes I get fundraising. Sometimes I get quick money from people as well, at the same time. So, so that’s what it is. This, this building has been like from scratch we have started and built up into that centre.

Yeah.

So social services… This was a run-down building when we have it took over. I mean, social services were shocked when they saw what we done to this.

How long did it take you to make it into a nice place?

We’re still working on it! [Laughs]

[Laughs]

We’re still working on it. It’s… The building work never finishes. You know? Every time the new things comes up, like we used to build small back garden as ever, we had to, we had to extend it for the elderlies, ‘cos our numbers were growing. And now that even the numbers are growing, so we are growing our hands a little bit outside as well, ‘cos we can’t afford to have a new build-, other building and all that. XXXX [00:47:19], so we’re renting somewhere else. Like we start renting Trinity Hall. Trinity Centre we started there a couple of months ago. That’s where I’m coming from this morning; I was there. And, er, on this one we, we have extended, explored, as much as we could. But there’s always a need. Little bit more need always to do a lot more. And, er, hopefully we’ll do some… Because I’m trying to get some like lift as well, like a walk-in lift on top and bottom, ‘cos there’s problem with the stairs here. The people cannot go up and down, up and down, so we, we’re looking at it. Because a stair-lift is not working out on the here. So I, we’ve been looking at ways to do the fundraising. Like they can build a hole in the middle, near the wall, so we can have like a small platform to bring them up and down. So, hopefully, once we fund raise it, it’s definitely…

Yeah.

So I’ve got a good… Everything boils down, comes down to money as well, and the fundraising and all that sort of things, and, erm… Now we have quite good funders coming up. They are supporting us. There’s a good support coming out. And the support is coming because, I can say proudly, work of the staff. ‘Cos the staff has worked with the trainings, with their, er, skills polished. My kitchen staff are did not able to be, er, helpers, supporting, learning, they’re doing NVQs. So I’m proud of that, ‘cos they are into trainings. They want to learn. They want to expand, and they want to expand their knowledge as well ,and they want to get into that, and, er… ‘Cos this field is so much expanding. And it’s such much worse, available, in the market. It’s how you can explore, and how much you can explore. So if we can keep on exploring and keep on going ahead, you know? ‘Cos I was talking to a group of my friends: I said, ‘We’ve done most of the things. We have reached up to end of life project as well. What next?’ Right? I’m looking at it. What next? I’ve done from ‘A’… I never call it ‘Z’. I think I’m still at ‘C’.

[Laughs]

[00:50:00]

So there might be something else to explore, as you never know. So that’s where it comes in, you know? That’s where we look at some young blood coming in; the young, er, young generation coming and telling us what’s in the market, what is needed, all this. Some people telling us what the need is and all that. This is all we see somewhere. And you can see more when you’re traveling as well, at the same time. Like, er, this Jan we were in Egypt; we went to Luxor. And, er, I saw something: they were like, er, stone grinders and all that. How they were enjoying… While they grinding the stone they were singing and clapping and all that. And it was a very good therapy, so I brought it back for them.

Wow.

So do that like they’re grinding the stone, and they were clapping and going on, and there was music, and she made a video, Taskin made a video from that, from Luxor. And so you get ideas when you go out. So that’s this is the main… Also it helps us in there, and people can get that. That’s what I’m… That’s what we’re like. And, er, now people are asking me again, when I’m doing the next holidays, and I don’t know what to do. [Laughs]

[Laughs] You mentioned a few times, erm, about food and cooking: is that something that’s always been important at SubCo?

It has been, because what’s happening this… Although the food… It’s nourish-, they eat… You can class it as spicy and good and that, but there’s, there’s some foods are, which are good in a country where is the heat. Right? Where you can burn them calories, right? Over here you can’t burn them calories. You have a habit of eating that grease, ghee, butter, and all that sort of thing, because that’s how your elderlies are told a generation… ‘You get stronger if you drink milk. If you stronger eat ghee.’ and all that sort of thing. When you come over here they don’t understand that they’re not burning the calories. Over there they’re walking in the sun, or doing that exercise, walking so much in the fields and all that. You’re burning your calories. In them days I’m talking about. Now they are too modern. They are more modern than us in a way. We still… In this country we still live in 1960s. When the India and Pakistan and all Bangladesh has advanced. They are more into nourished foods and all that. We are not.

Mmm.

So this was a need here to tell people that what the ideal foods are. We have no objection eat, you eating that food, but in some proportion. To bring into that we had to do some education, to bring them, to bringing them to that sort of… Because if got some restaurants and all that, oil dripping off, because they’re still doing that traditional. And the new generation or anybody, even I myself, I will not eat that stuff. To me it’s too greasy, too oil, and you say, ‘How am I going to burn the calories?’ But because that’s their tradition and they people were over here the same thing was. They, that was they should be. So to bring that to the nourishment and also to give them the same taste as well you had to work on it. You had to educate the kitchen staff, because kitchen staff, again, was in the same tradition, that lot. Put lot of oil XXXX [00:53:41]. They do not understand, so we had to train them into that. We had to go into the books, we had to go to the literatures, we had to go, ‘How we can cut the calories? How we can cut the calories?’ But cutting not only that: at the same time give them the same taste. Taste should not differ.

Mmm.

To do that it was very hard job. To bring that in we had to work like experimenting ourselves as well. And some staff was experimenting as well. And we get some idea as well while I was traveling abroad. We were traveling with them, and if you see some places in India… India I’ve seen like… Thailand, how they cook, steam it and all that, as to bring the taste out. And even Malaysia, Malay, er, how they cook Halal food and all that. I’ve been to… In Kuala Lumpur I went to some mosque where they’re doing a massive cookings, and how they were cooking… Although they were, er… They hot countries but they XXXX [00:52:54] little bit oil… Less oil… XXXX [00:54:55]. So these, these sort of things you learn, and you talk to them,

[00:55:00]

and, er, staff also bring in something, and committee members also bring some ideas in. So we put them all together and tried to bring that out. And it, it start working. Although at the very beginning it was very hard for the elderlies: ‘Oh! There’s no oil in this!’ ‘Don’t worry! Taste the food, not the oil!’ So the people start loving it. Now they elder people tell us, ‘We don’t want the oil.’ So this is… That’s how you can change them, but not adding the oil you can’t be have that taste. You’ve got to give them the same taste, but in a different variety. But, slowly slowly you’ve got to do it. You can’t do instant change to that. As I told you that time, when I took them, I said, ‘Sorry! No Indian food.’ So they didn’t have no oil. For seven days they had to have salads. They had to have like salad, they had to have cheese, they had to have bread. Or the best thing they could cook was the cauliflower cheese, er, cauliflower cheese. And I made sure that he cooked it nicely in a pot, small, er, small, er, balls, each piece, individual pieces, nicely done, the cauliflower cheese. And little bit, sprinkle bit chilli on it, and, and etc. Yeah? And for the Muslims like it was Spain there’s no such thing as Halal.

Mmm.

Right? We did. They call it… They don’t call it ‘Halal’, they call it ‘special’ food. So we went… You couldn’t do the lamb, but you could the chickens. So we went to the place where they call it ‘special’, and they do the Halal food, and we brought it to the restaurant and they cooked it how we want it. W-we, couple of my staff, my wife, Taskin, myself, we went in there; we showed them how to clean the chicken and how to cut it and how to roast it. And they done it for us.

Wow.

And then they done it. And when we were… When I next took, ‘Oh, Ramesh! Special chickens!’ So that’s, you know? You teach them as well, and you satisfy the customer, and also at the same time give them something different so they enjoy it as well. Instead of having all the time chillies, they have something.

Taskin, erm, mentioned, the first time I came, she told a story about when you went on one of the trips—I think you were on a cruise ship—and some people were cooking in their cabins. Can you remember that?

Yeah. That’s, er, it’s always happens like that is cabins cooking as, er… They started doing that… We done that from, er, Cyprus to Alexandria.

Yeah.

… Doing that as well. And there were people cooking in their cabins. Er, that, that, that has been a tradition. You see like in olden days, they used to be like when their ships goes fr-, used to go from India to Africa (they used to take the labour) the people used to cook when they came in. But our cabin was like cooking in there. We done twice like that. Al-Alexandria we done that, one from, er, Limassol to Alexandria, to the port Alexandria. Took them Egypt. That, that, that on the Cyprus trip. And then we, then we done another one from Portsmouth to Bilbao. People… You cannot stop that. You can do what you like, you know? And you, and you find like, there, I had, er, a trip, like a, er, er, cr-cruiser lying in there and the staff, one of the kitchen staff, they came to me… Because, you see, you can identify, because a hundred people are there. Now they took some bread to their, er, to eat later on. And the staff come to me and says, ‘Oh, your people are taking breads.’ I said, ‘What do you mean my people are taking bread? Everybody’s taking bread! They’re not going anywhere; you’re right in the middle of the sea. Where the hell they gonna go? They can eat only on the ship. Where’re they gonna take it to?’ He says, ‘No, they’re not supposed to…’ I said, ‘If you want to find somebody, go and tell them. It’s not ‘my people’, it’s the same people as others are. So, if you don’t like it, go and tell anybody who is taking it, ‘Please do not take it’. Do not come to me: ‘Your people’. They have paid the money as I’ve paid the money.’ So we had to put them in their places as well. Otherwise, like, he has been like similar a couple of times like that way also, but there has been on trips as well, like, where ship people, they have done effort to cook Asian meal for, because they know the group coming in. They, they made an effort to cook Asian meal for them as well. They put samosas and curry and all that on the cruiser.

[01:00:00]

That’s nice.

So… You know they, that, they… Some ship people have respected. Er, some they did moan about it as well. Doesn’t make any difference. You get used to it. And not only get used to it, you gotta put them in their place, simple as that. Like you could tell them what we’re... resistant. Where they are right you are right as well at the same time with the wrong. So everybody… If they were taking it home I would’ve said, ‘Yes. That is wrong.’ When you eating on the XXXX [01:00:36], all inclusive.

Yeah.

If you don’t feel like eating now you might want to eat later on. So you’re not going to come back to the restaurant to eat over here. So you’re going to stay in the cabin, or you might want to go to the board or feed the fish. Never know what you wanna do. So what’s wrong with it? So I didn’t think something wrong with it, so that, that’s the reason we didn’t. Well, the people do cook, like to cook something. Like I had some people take from here half-cooked, and they start have their gas burners with them. Some had electric heaters somewhere. You do find that. But you got to put up with that. Doesn’t make any difference.

When you first started SubCo, what were the sort of services you offered?

At that… When we started first it was like a standard services, put it that way. Because that time was not like specialist services. So, to start with, you, you just have to show that you’re a day centre, ‘cos the day services… Because I was already working 24 hours with the elderlies. She was, Taskin, was doing elderly projects as well. Most the groups were… The group we were together, like Ramesh Verma and all that, XXXX [01:01:54], we were involved in that sector, to elderly care, at that time. It was very important, elderly care, because that was not available in the market, that time. So we are all working on that, okay? Now there should be some sort of respect for the elders. There should be some elderly care in there. So that’s what we’re look, and that’s what we started from. To gradually we built up to a specialised, specialist, organisation. We did not want to just stay as a, just kind… Because I said I had Tahira coming from Age Concern to give advice on Age Concern funding available. I had some people like Palvinder coming in, giving advice on social care policy and all that sort of thing. I was here to give them housing services. Social services were providing them with some sort of… And in them days DSS, I had a few girls coming from DSS to tell them how they can claim benefits like, er… In, in them days it was like mobility allowance, or attendance allowance. Now it’s a different name: Disability Living Allowance they call it now. In them days it was like no income support. It was a pension credit, pensions and all that. So they benefits and rights, what their rights were, because they never knew about their rights. They always lacked behind for the care projects and… So that, that, that was a… Initially it was like advice, and provided day services to anybody walk in, but that, slowly slowly, we found that now this is provided everywhere; we have to specialise in something. And that’s how we were meeting up, together, to provide… And soon Taskin started with us. That clicked. Right? Like, before, it was just a centre… And also meals on wheels we started before Taskin came here we started the meals on wheels. But once Taskin came in then we started a specialist care as well at the same time XXXX [01:04:02], because she was awarded respite care projects and all that. And she said, ‘Ramesh, there is a project: elderlies with no housing or day-care.’ And, er, ‘Yes, that is not available so let’s…’ The group decided, ‘Yes, let’s specialise in that!’ And also we had a council backing as well at the same time. They backed us on that: ‘Yes; you are providing that.’ So that is the reason like, even as I said that went through a bad patch. We pulled out, because everybody had their funding cut. Because we came to that project that we are not a funded project, we are a care project, so we had no… We have come back from red to, er, black. So you can call that we are back in the market to provide a service to the people, the needy people.

[01:05:00]

Are there any particular needs specific to the Asian community that you addressed?

Asian community, we see they, first of all, it was like when, when we started he was like, as I said, like, er, people came from East Africa and all that, they had like a lot of mental disturbance because they could not even explore… They could not explain to the children, they could not explain to anybody. We were here to listen. There’s a lot of, er, stories in the, you know, that people used to come up with: how they were, and how they were treated, and how they were… Like, so it’s, it’s… You can call it like a reminiscence as well, at the same time, you know? You talking to the people to find out what the hell was going... One project we went through that. Then start, now, in the second generation the people who’re retiring from here. Because the people came here, all they knew: go to factory, work, come home, have a drink, go to sleep. And that deteriorate their life… health. And in them days, in ‘80s, ‘70s, ‘80s, if, er… There was classed Indian person gets older ten years before any other, because they took, they too much inside, nothing comes out. So, even like in ASRA, like an old age, er, elderly schemes and all that, it’s all sixty-plus. ASRA was the only we were allowed to take fifty-plus.

Really?

Yeah. Because there were statistics there were there in the council and in the government, that Asian elderlies get young, ten years older than any English or any Black man. They become older ten years before. So that’s, that’s how XXXX [01:06:56] would stand, of ten years, to take them to shelter. You could take them to sheltering scheme ten years earlier, then in fifty-plus.

Is, is that something that has now sort of…

Now it’s over.

… changed?

You see with third generation, ‘cos second, third generation, now the people know. Now the people are educating themselves. Now people are getting into that. Now people are prepared to live on their, in their freedom. Before, it was dependency.

Is there…

When you’re… When… Pardon? It was in the blood. Nothing you could do about it. Like, it was like when you’re younger dependent of your parents, when you’re grown up your parents are dependent on you. So you never independent. Now, everybody wants to be independent. Parents want to be independent, children wants to be independent, grandchildren when they will be independent. Every everybody wants to be independent. So to do their independence and all that, they prepared for it, so now that fifty-plus is gone. Now, you see, everywhere is equal ops. You, as you mentioned Section 11, that’s where you came in as well. So now that Section 11 is gone, and now it on everything is equal ops. So them days are speciality, and preferential… Had to give them preferential treatment, because they were not treated in a right way. So to do that, the government done that Section 11. Okay, I give you that, little bit… You know… [Pause] I give you sweet penny, right? So that, that was, that’s all it was like a penny. You getting a penny…

Yeah.

… in your little pocket. ‘Forget about the pound.’ they says, ‘Forget about ninety-nine pence. You got a penny in there.’ Right? So this, this is, this is how that came in. Now everything is on equal ops, everywhere. There’s no such thing anymore like specialised in Asian, or anything like that. You are all in equal ops. Even here we are on equal ops. Must welcome anybody else, even though we are a specialised thing, Asian care and all that sort of thing. Anybody walks in here must be welcome. Anybody that’s referred by the council must be welcome. As long they can adapt to our requirements and whatever we have providing services. So they are like… With the elderlies it is very hard at the moment, but with the third generation which is coming up now it will very easy to mix them together, because they will understand one another. These people they not understand, everybody had their own ways.

Mmm.

[01:10:00]

So it’s very hard, it was very hard, for them. But now it’s getting, slowly slowly, it will get easier. Slowly slowly people will get… But the needs are getting bigger, the demands are getting bitter, the lifespan is getting bigger, and because of that the needs, like centres of this type of things, are needed more. Because all the, most older generation now if you’re looking at it, seventy-plus, they are living on pills and pension and all that. Physically we are going down. Mentally depressed, getting mental depression coming in. Lot of depressions coming in. But lifespan is getting longer.

Mmm.

So as I say like, I told you that in my line, when I was working as a dray, none of the brewery people seen their pension. And the government was laughing because they contribute all their life. Come 65 they kicked the bucket.

[Laugh]

Right? They’re gone so the government got the money.

Yeah.

But now they’re living longer, it’s hurting the government, because they’re claiming pensions. Right. Now, a person who is about dying a hundred and, er, hundred-and-one, hundred-and-two, they work less in their life when they claim from pension more than that, so that hurts the government. They don’t want to pay the money. They want to grab the money.

Yeah.

So, to do that, like the, that’s where the care comes in. So if the caring now, people do need the care. You don’t want to kill them, you don’t want them to die unnecessarily. But the time comes, you know, it goes… I’ve been to Israel. Believe you me. Over here the response ambulance is one hour, two hours. Anywhere in Israel the response time is eight minutes.

Really?

Yeah. And you can be operated within five, four hours.

Wow.

That’s a country where there is a Russian Jew, who’s a doctor, sweeping the roads, ‘cos they haven’t got a job for him as a doctor. But if it’s needed, he’ll be there. Right? That’s what I class them like a… Mostly they talk about sheikhs and all that, for their treatments they come to Israel.

Really?

Their medicine, medically, if you’re time has come to die, nobody can stop you. If this is time is not there, best country is Israel, you can be treated just like that.

Yeah.

That’s how the treatment is.

Do you think…

What?

Do you think, erm, that the care you provide is becoming more important therefore, because of, you know, other government services are getting cut, and stuff like that?

It’s cuts and all that, er, sorry, ‘cos I didn’t get you, ‘cos I’m a bit on this one…

Yeah.

…hard.

Are you, are the services SubCo provides more important today than they have been previously due to these added pressures?

See, what happens is that, in SubCo, when we provide a service we provide not… Although, as a professional, but not ‘us and them’. To us, it’s ‘we’. Doesn’t matter what colour, what creed you are, what religion you are. It’s we. When the government provide services: ‘us and them’. You’re there for eight hours, six hours, and you’re gone home. Soon as you walk out of that door, you’re washed out. This staff and us, they live with them twenty-four hours, believe you. They go on holidays, they talk SubCo, they talk their clients. You, they, go for a dinner, they don’t talk about families, they talk about SubCo. So this is what ‘we’. That’s where we are successful in providing a service. This is how we have given them more lifespan. We treat them as ‘we’. We do not treat, ‘Oh because I, the book says I have to do that.’ I don’t do, they don’t do by book. Although they take the good things from the obok, where they provide the service, service is needed by them. So that is where we become a unique organisation, providing a service to the people. Yes, we are here twenty-four hours. I had a meeting over there and they talk about how we can handle that person, that we got some new client, ‘Oh she shouts too much’, this and that and all the other, ‘How we gonna…’ So it’s just in them; they will not talk anything else. So this, this is what I said to you. Even away day, as a said, I’m going on holidays. Even if I be lying on the edge of the sea, all they’d be talking about is SubCo.

[01:15:00]

[Laughs]

So it’s, it’s gone in their blood, put it that way.

Mmm.

So that is the reason my staff turnover is very low. See, your staff turnover would be higher if you look, erm, looking for myself only. Everybody needs money. Everybody needs opportunity. I would love them to go out of here and explore more, and bring some ideas back to us as well at the same time. Some of the staff are so stuck. For them, it’s like day and night for them.

Yeah.

And it couple of staff I sit with them, like XXXX [01:16:05], she was from the day one. And I said to XXXX [01:16:08], ‘You’ve XXXX [01:16:09] for the last twenty-four, twenty-three years.’ She said, ‘I’m gonna die here. I don’t wanna go nowhere.’ So it’s some of them are there that way. Some who have gone out, they have given us, er, back ideas came. Nahid, my wife’s chair, she used to work with us, she went out (she’s a care worker and all that), she brought me lot of opportunities back as well. This… Other people are here: I have my treasurer Ashok, he used to work with me in ASRA, and he comes with ideas as well because he’s an architect, so he brings all the ideas I said like developing and all that. So everybody is there, like Sunder; he used to work in the social services here. So people do come with back with idea, and we do put them together, and we want them to feel that they’re part of us; they’re not just clients, although client is client. As that’s the professional way to saying is, ‘Client is client’. If anybody talking to me in professional ways, then that the professional is, ‘Client is client’. But we have client plus. One step ahead in that. In, er, Tas-, Taskin knows 99% people by their names. You take me to any of the people, sixty-four people are here at the moment, she would know every single person’s name, and, 99% people, she would know their history as well. That’s my chief executive, and that, that’s what I’m look at it. If I go to a day centre like anywhere run by social services, they will not even know the ten people’s name and addresses. They link with their next of kins, their link with their families, their, we, we do sit with them in the bereavement, we sit with them their happiness... Sometimes we leave them in the happiness on their own, but the bereavement we are there. So they, the staff does live with them, and that’s, that’s what the beauty is. So to know, so you, you talk to her any client and this is what is happening. She can exactly tell you that is the person. So that’s how all the staff is. So that’s, that’s, that’s what, er, make my life easier.

[Laughs]

I don’t have to conduct for, er, you know, ‘cos I got my job, my break as well.

Yeah.

I want to enjoy my retirement, and it’s far for me to come from.

What’s your proudest achievement with SubCo?

Achievements? It’s in front of you. All of them are in front of you. Achievement started with one staff, one me and one my staff, and today: twenty-six staff, three XXXX [01:19:06] and are black and running smooth. People are happy. I had the first management committee meeting today when they say, ‘There’s no issues’, The user’s reps say, ‘Everything is running smooth.’ I never heard them saying that before. First time this morning they said to me, ‘Ramesh, everything is running smooth. Nothing to complain about.’ What else can I hear? That’s the achievement. As long as they are happy, as long as they feel better, feel comfortable… See, we see them when the day they came in, ‘cos, er, there was a case, er, Pakistani gentleman, and, er, Taskin’s husband, he was working in their house, and he was like run down. The guy was completely run down, never shaved, nothing whatsoever, sitting down. And he knew from very old used to work in Ford.

[01:20:00]

And he said to him, why don’t you go to SubCo then? First he had a drawback. One day he came, and, er, for the last three years he has been here, and, apparently from what I heard from the family, he gets up in the morning, shave, tie, suit up… He wants to come to SubCo. See, that’s an achievement: that people want to come… If they can help it, they want us to open seven days a week. But, again, everything comes down to money. And also staff is ready. Staff is no problem, because, as I said, because they live 24 hours with this. But we have to look at it how we can break it as well. It’s not only that: staff, er, to look after them as well, their families as well.

Mmm.

So not only that, yeah? They are 24 hour here. I’ve done my bit, but they have to have their families as well. So we’re looking at the same prospects as well. We want to increase hours, we want to give more service level, so that, this was the reason why, when the opportunity comes at Trinity Hall, so I could do some more service to the people, because this is getting bit more congested for us now, and there’s not many places where we can move on to.

Yeah.

So, so that’s what it is. That’s, that’s an achievement, sure.

Yeah, certainly, I mean to have it still running after all these years, and sort of ever-expanding is, you know, that’s really good, isn’t it?

Running quite smooth. The main thing is always is, you see, organisations run because… Sometimes what happens is that when you have unprofessional people, and they’re looking at their individual benefits, that’s where there come the crunch comes in. When you provided service, and you’re providing it open-hearted, and you’re open—like, we are completely open with our accounts, everything financial were are like an open market. Anybody can check the account, can do everything to go through that—that makes you flourish. That makes the people… The funders are not fools. They know exactly where to fund, and how their funds are being used: either they’re used properly or not. Where I can get Lottery money without even filling the forms. Only one form, and in no interviews, and they second time they’re saying, ‘We don’t need your forms. We know who you are; your money’s coming.’ So it means we are delivering some service. And, as long we keep on delivering the service, we don’t get into the greed.

Mmm.

The greed is that what kills an organisation. We should not be doing that. What you are money for, what the funding is, providing a service. I’m not saying like… No organisation will take people on away day on holidays like me. I do, ‘cos I keep in budget. And I show that budget: ‘Look! Here is the chairman’s budget.’ And this is the budget because these people are providing a voluntary service. They need a break.

Mmm.

Staff, this staff, is working; they need some support. If I don’t support them, where they gonna go? They gonna crack up. That breaks, I take them on a break, let them get their steam out, prepare them for the next six months. But that’s money which I spent on them, that returns, comes in there.

Absolutely.

And if I don’t spend that money, and I just want to grab from them, you’re going to go mental berserk. Physically and mentally you’re going to go [Throttling noise]. Gone!

Yeah, yeah.

And I do not want any of my staff to go in that way, ‘cos I don’t believe in that myself, ‘cos I never had any place where I could get my steam out when I was working with elderlies. I found a place. As I said, I went to Israel, I used to go to Jerusalem. I sat there near the Wailing Wall, on the top, and, er, I don’t know I, er… I showed Taskin and all that, I took them there as well. I sit near the Wailing Wall, and one foot is there and this is there, and I sit there, and a Jewish café there, he gives me coffee all day long, right in front of the mountain. It’s about two-hundred, er, monuments of the elderlies that pilgrimage. And two-hundred God-fearing people born in that 2-mile radius of Jerusalem.

[01:25:00]

There must be something there. And that is comes to in the picture, give me relaxation. I used too much I’ll goes every six months there one year. I used to go there, sit there, talk to them, was for nearly couple of hours. And I could take it back. So that’s what I wanted my staff to be, understand them.

Have the same sort of opportunity to…

Yeah.

Yeah. Do you mind if we take a quick pause?

Please.

[Interview paused]

Er, well I was wondering if you have any particular fond or cherished memories throughout working at SubCo. Any sort of standout…?

Mmm… It’s lots and lots of memories. Recently it was a memory that, er, one of my, er, user rep, she died, and, before she died, in her will she requested us to be her executor will. So we, I am the executor XXXX [01:26:21]. And she told her children that, because she was a gardening fanatic, and she wanted all her gardening tools to come to SubCo. All the rest of the money, whatever the will is, has been taken care by the solicitors, but it was that one of our client that think that, yes, we are the people that can be trusted. So that’s, that’s I could class as this. Another achievement for this… That’s a recent one. There’s lot lot for last—you can understand—twenty-three years. It’s full of that. I’ve just given you an example, the recent one.

Mmm. Also something else I wanted to ask about was you mentioned how the change in funding, erm, was a difficult period. Erm, I was just wondering if there were any other patches you went through which were sort of challenging.

Er, every year is challenging in this centre, because there is no continued funding. Every funding has an end. And you don’t know whether you’ll be here next year or not. So it’s a challenging for you ever year. So every six months, year, we are thinking or we are looking for the next year, next two years, three years, because there is no such funding which can give me a guarantee that this centre will continue for ten years, or fifteen years. So maximum staff guarantee comes in six months. You have six months funding, you have a year funding, year-and-a-half funding, and myself, my chief executive, most of the time goes into doing applications for the future fundings, or looking for money, where we can get the money to keep us going for next coup-, few more years.

Mmm.

So it’s a challenge every single day, so you can class it. I cannot sit on a chair, and say ‘Yeah, for the next ten years I’m laughing now.’ Every day is a new day for us.

Erm, oh, sorry… Oh, oh yeah, er, could you tell me a little bit about the intergenerational work you do, ‘cos that’s something we’re sort of interested in?

Intergeneration work, it’s just, it’s just as I explained you that we kept the religion out from here. Generation, intergeneration is like we’re mixing the youngsters with the elderlies. We have a youth project here; the children come in from the schools, colleges in, er… We do a youth centre as well. We used to run a youth club, and, er, there was one part, one part was happy and the other part was not happy running the youth club, because they did not like having the shisha club or something like that. The youth wanted to be like stay away from the streets. That was the only way to attract them into here, to give them a light… Like not heavy smoking, but light, say apple or something like that, small small smoke, which they enjoyed, and there’s some grounds in the evening, small cafeteria. Er, but the council did not, wasn’t happy, so we had to close that eventually.

[01:30:00]

But we’re still working on that. We have like students coming from the colleges working here at special, er, training sessions. So it’s intergenerational like they understand, and the elderlies are also going to their schools and all that. We taking them to schools. So, trying to mix them together. So, thirteen… One generation, third… First and the third come the second in the middle, which was like… Say grandfather and the grandson, and grand-, granddaughter and grandmother or grandfather. I don’t want to be sexist so take me like that [Laughs].

[Laughs]

Don’t get me about boys and girls only. Erm, to me, equal ops is XXXX [01:30:43], and the person believes in that equal ops. And, er, so this is what we have like generation. So the young generation understands elderlies. And with that is what is happening they start respecting elders. And elders do understand also the needs of the youngsters as well, what their needs are. So they are also, they’re both working together. We try to put them sometimes, like we bring the schools here, the students comes here, they sit with them, they spend a day with them, or they go to a school and spend a day there. So it’s, er… So that’s the generation gap we are covering that all, that aspect as well.

That’s great. Erm, I’m really… Sort of my final question, er… Would you mind telling me a bit more about what Newham was like, sort of generally, erm, in the early ‘90s just before you set SubCo up?

In ‘90s when we set up there was a… Because there was a funding towards, as I say, the Section 11. So they wanted, as I said, give a penny and keep ninety-nine to that. So that was the, that was the game that time. That if they didn’t give the penny they was not able to give ninety-nine.

Mmm.

So it was not fully funded organisation. We were getting a bit of it… The major part was kept by the councils and all that. It was like a little, bit little bit drop here, drop there, drop there… So that’s what the council were playing.

Mmmhmm. But also what about, er, the area as a whole?

Area by the whole… Because what happening in them days, although this is a very highly Asian populated area, Newham is I find like, I think it’s 32% the population is Asian population here, and but it was, although the councillors were mostly Asian councillors, services for the Asian, them days, as I said, I had to work hard, we had to work hard to get from them, but, but it was not the councillors we got it from, it is the officers we got it from. We never had support from the councillors. Very rare we had support from the councillors. They never looked at us, it was like, to me, I thought councillors were just like a… Now there were no say from them coming in the social-, the staff, the, the mainstream staff, they had more say than the councillors, and it was how we approached them, that’s how we, as I said like we had no funding coming in, and like, if I got a ten-thousand, I don’t know how I… I know how I got it: from them. So it’s, it’s all… So even like, er, it came back to us as well because them days like they started, because we fought for it that everybody gets a holiday money. In them days you, they used to give a holiday money to everybody that, er, £50 year, something like that holiday money.

Yeah.

And we said to them, ‘Look, these Asians can’t do this, sort of, Por-Portsmouth and what. Like to go to India, so can you give them a lump sum money?’ So they got two-hund-… that’s how I got the lump sum money: £250, but had to use on holiday. Well, we had to show that holiday, because some people they took the money, but they never went on holidays. But we proved it that we took the money and we took the holidays, so this, this is how that was in them days was the, the… How you approached the officers of the Newham council. The council, councillors and all that, they never had no policies, honestly. That was very hard to crack them, because the, they… I don’t think 90% of the councillors they knew what they were doing there. Although, I’m… We didn’t want to be in politics, and that’s the reason we kept ourselves out of politics, and we do not involve politics in ourselves, that’s why. We just want to provide a service to the elders who need the services. This is what it is.

[01:35:00]

Were the, erm, the council workers sort of receptive and understanding…

Er…

… to what…?

As, er… You see what happened that the we had a good team, which had some likes with XXXX [01:35:27]. In them days it was like work… Still it works with the links, how you approach, how you put your case. See, them days, a person decides, used to decide, whether you are capable to do that service or not. Today a computer decides whether you can do it or not.

Yeah.

Right? So that’s a difference. In them days you didn’t have to do the computer language; you had to impress the officer, you have to impress Deborah, you have to impress them to get the services off the ground, and then you got to deliver. And if you are able to deliver… Some it was all within them was, some councillors had, ‘What am I gonna get out of it?’ That was in them days, and we told them where they can go.

[Laughs]

We were not ready for that. We were here to provide a service, I was not here to do a business.

Mmm.

We are aa charity and we wanted to stay that way. Even we used to put money from our own pocket. Going on holidays is not easy. You take money: there’s always contingency plans are there. There’s some XXXX [01:36:54] comes in, which you want to do, and you can’t ask the money, so what you do? Spend your own money. We done that as well. But to bring them generation up. And, honestly, we as a group, and myself, have no regrets, never bad. I’ll never be rich, but we done that bit. We gave ourselves satisfaction, satisfaction to the, er, people, like… I’ll give you an example: like I start here, there’s no… Suddenly I decided to do a boat trip there, to take them to show them fishes and all that, glass boat and all that, it’s not fun-funded on that, sort of to the, the er, XXXX [01:37:45], he was mayor of that town as well XXXX [01:37:49], and I said to him, I said, ‘Ramsay, what you want to do?’ He gave me a discount price. Paid from my own pocket, took them all on the boat. So we do that, we doing that sort of things. So that’s what the councillors did not want, that.

Mmm.

So that is the reason, you know, you won’t see no politician in this centre.

[Laughs]

We don’t allow it. The only thing we take is the professional people to be on the executive. Mostly we depend on the user reps. So if you look at my, on that there are twelve user reps. It’s got to be six male, six female. Again, it’s a six chief ex-, er, executive committee members, out of them, got to be three men and three women. We call equal ops. But, unluckily, the men quarter is full, the women quarter I haven’t filled. Not able to; I’ve only got one; I’m still looking for more, but we’ll not... But we keep that way. We will not put men in there.

Mmm.

That still stays there. The day… Women could be more than 50%, but men has to be maximum 50%. This is what it was decided from day one, and we kept, kept to that promise we are keeping.

Erm, I guess I’ve sort of run out of all my questions, so thank you for your time…

[Claps] Thanks.

… it’s been…

Thanks, Francis.

… really interesting.

Thanks. Thanks for bearing me for last two-and-a-half hours, two hours.

Yeah, no. It’s been a real pleasure, thank you!

Yeah? Thank you!

[01:39:21]

The End

Not to be used without copyright.

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Ramesh Dadwal

Project: Growing Old Gracefully - SubCo

Date of interview: 27/03/2018

Language: English

Venue: SubCo

Name of interviewer: Francis Ball

Length of interview: 1:39:21

Transcribed by: Francis Ball

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_03

2018_esch_GrOG_04

2018_esch_GrOG_04

Name of interviewee: Ramesh Verma

Project: Growing Old Gracefully - SubCo

Date of interview: 09/04/2018

Language: English

Venue: Gants Hill

Name of interviewer: Francis Ball

Length of interview: 114:25

Transcribed by: James King

-----------

Um, it’s the ninth of April, and I’m er, interviewing Ramesh Verma at her home in Gants Hill as part of our SubCo project. Erm, Ramesh would you mind telling me your date of birth please?

Er, seventeen July nineteen forty two.

And where were you born?

I was born in East Africa, Tanzania – a small town called Tanga.

And what did your parents do when you were growing up?

My dad had retired by then but he worked with railways. He came err, to East Africa in nineteen, early nineteen- twentieth century, in nineteen oh nine, and worked in the railways, but then he retired and he set up his own business. Err, there was a big farm and he- he owned his own erm, cash and carry farm, but many things, so it was a business until he left.

Mm. Erm, and how long did you spend in- living in East Africa?

Err, we left Tanzania in nineteen sixty seven, at the age of twenty two. Err, we left it because it- in err, all East African countries had got err independence, and my dad being the business man, he was asked to give up his British citizenship and take up the Tanzanian citizenship, otherwise he wouldn’t get a license to carry… And he was a person, said no way, I can’t give my British citizen- I was born a British citizen and I’m going to die- so the best thing is… And at that time there was a lot of things going political, you know political things. And so it was suggested that it was better to get the- if you got a young growing up girl, get your daughters married because things might change. You know there was a lot of upheaval there you know, political. So all this err, my Dad decided to take me to India and get married there you know, even though at that time I was erm, a principal in the school, I’d done my graduation there as a teacher, and I was teaching in erm, err XXX (00.01.54) ‘cos I was the first Asian girl; Indian girl – to teach Swahili in a secondary school, which is not my language but it was… But er, because I studied it so, and err I was for the promotion err, but my dad said no. So I left everything and went to India, that was in July 1967.

Was there a large Indian population?

Yes very large Indian population in that part, and yes, there were, mostly there were businessmen. There were some people working in the government office in, but mainly they were business people, and they had all businesses. But it was like a shop to them, and they were asked that you weren’t get license to carry on, and they had been working there for years and years and so, it was really very, very upsetting. My dad didn’t sell anything, he didn’t sell his factories, his shops, nothing – he said I made this up you know, from scratch, how can I sell it even for money? He just left it there. Even today my da- my brother went two years ago to visit the place, houses, farms, everything is there, and the- the Africans who grew up with my- in front of my- our dads house as babies, they are all old – they haven’t touched it, it’s still there – they’re looking after it.

Wow.

Yeah its- we, they used to treat my dad as a king because he set up so many schools, he did a lot of charity work and he said not so my dad- my asked my brother to just give it to charities, they can open schools or whatever, you know? They- my dad was not the only one, but many other people went to the same problem and err, we didn’t go back again. I would like to go and visit the place, my brother just been there two years ago.

Yeah. And so what did you do after you moved to India then?

So when I went to, went to India within six months I got married, err then I started working as a head mistress erm, in an English medium school, erm but because I had done five, six sub- I wanted to be a doctor actually, when I was studying – err, so I did all this medical like subjects err chemistry, physics, biology, additional maths, and I did er- I got admission in medical school in Delhi, Miranda House. But then, when there were two months for me to go and join you know, my college, my mum, she started thinking oh no. I was nineteen at the time and err, she thought while I’m nineteen, you are nineteen, now you go there, you study medicine for five years then you do two years internship, and then you still- after all that I would like to work as a doctor, so you’d be twenty-six, twenty-seven, who’s going to get you married? She’s an old lady in those days, you know? A girl has to get married by twenty, twenty-one, twenty-two. It was difficult for me to accept it, but because in those days we couldn’t fight back our parents, and she went, the best thing is for you to become a teacher, you can get married, do what after marriage whatever, nobody can stop you, so yeah. All of a sudden erm, mind change and I had to get admission in the teacher’s college in Dar Es Salaam which is the capital of Tanzania. All schools, colleges are full, nobody would take me – because they said it’s too late, and my dad has to fight, go run about you know, talk to this principle, that… I got the last XXX (00.05.12) [laughs]. So I did my teachers err, training there in Dar Es Salaam, and err I taught there for two three years, and I went back home to give me another stage in the school to learn outside my hometown. I set up the school, it was a secondary school – an African, more to a village – so I had to start it from scratch, yeah I had to run it when I’d just finished my teacher training, but I did it. So after two years I said no, I want to go back in my hometown because missing my parents. After two years in college, two years this, it was a bit too much – so I went back to my hometown and then they gave me a place in-

Oh that’s nice.

-A school nearby. Taught there for six and a half years then went to India. So I started teaching in India again, and then erm, err we came here in err 1976. I had two kids: two boys, so we came here. I started teaching here for about six months, but because it was a big gap between my training in east Africa and my working in India, so they wanted me to do in house training here. Though all my degrees, all my everything from Cambridge, so I passed all college school certificate, my teaching qualifications papers were from Cambridge, but still they would not accept me because there was a gap. So but they did very kind, they examined me, they took my exam and all that, and said okay you can start teaching, but at the same time we have to take some tests as well. So I had to look after my kids, work, at home my mum and dad were living with me, they were disabled, I had to care for them and teach and learn. Erm, continue about eight or nine months, it was a bit difficult – my mum had gone disabled, she was bed ridden, went blind, she’d broken both her hips, bed ridden completely – twenty four hours need, she needed care. And my dad was hundred and two years old, and at the same time I lost my husband as well, and the kids, one was five and a half, one was about seven. It was difficult, I managed, tried to manage to get everything together, but it was difficult. ‘Cos I would- I would feel guilty to leave my mum and go to work, you know, so after six and a half months I said no, I can’t do work you know, so I had to pay attention to my parents. Erm, and I looked after them for eighteen years: single-handed. But those eighteen years, my life turning period. So eighteen- so I gave up my job, err paid attention to the education of my sons, I decided looking after parents, but what I found that err in those days in- it was in Hackney, there was nothing whatsoever for older people from ethnic minorities, especially Asian, I mean I say people who don’t speak English. There was services where- there were services were there, excellent services, I’m not saying they were not there, very good services…. But they were not culturally appropriate as I would say, you know? Like example, meals on the wheels… you know, there was like beans, mash potato – very healthy food, no doubt. But my mum at the age of eighty she has never tested that food, you know. So she said no sorry, I don’t, I can’t. I can’t eat this food, give me a bread and a cup of tea, a piece of bread and a cup of tea – that’s fine. And I said oh my god, my father’s worked in erm, in the army – he’s served the country, we are here today because of these people sacrificing their lives. And at that age, hundred and two, golden age, he should be enjoying, and here he has to say, oh if I have to go to hospital, there’s nothing for him – either I cook or I come and cook, he can’t have that food you know, because that is not what he’d like to eat, you know. So I said no, I’m not having this. So I said I have to- it’s not only for my parents, there were many other older people I saw around where I used to visit you know, so I became the secretary of an Asian association, and from there I started getting this strength you know, we have to change the services, and err, same thing with was like, whatever shall we use, this name – there was nothing culturally appropriate. Example, erm homes, despite care which I wanted to use for my mum, care workers, home help, cross roads, all this is people who are disabled who need help, you know. Everything there was English speaking. There’s nothing for me so I said sorry, they were not for me, you know my doctor said no, no, no you can’t carry on like this, you will die, you can’t look after kids and do- well I said well, I can’t use this service, what’s the point of getting it, and when they come there my mum can’t- she won’t- she can’t even ask someone please can I have a glass of water? Even in hospital same thing- even in hospital where she was- she would to go, she was in and out of hospital, I had to be with her from eight o’clock in the morning until eleven o’clock when I would put her to bed and come home. She couldn’t ask someone, nurse can I have a glass of water, nurse can I have a cushion – just language again, and she couldn’t see herself. And it was getting too much, and I had to come home and look after my dad, and then kids, you know? So it was too much. I was ill afterwards but I didn’t care about myself, so it was like on the go all the time.

Yeah.

So I said no I’m not happy, so I started campaigning. People got together with me, and the time came where they all supported me for, that you’re going, and either put her in a flat, we got a very good council flat you know, because we moved from Dagenham as I said, and it was a four bedroom flat, because my mum and dad, my two sons and myself, it was on the sixth floor with no lift… With no lift at all, sixth floor, can you believe, with older people, you know for me and my kids okay, but when my mum got disabled, she couldn’t go anywhere. So when she had to go to hospital they used to come and pick her on a stretcher, go to hospital, come back and then she is like a prisoner.

Yeah.

She couldn’t even go and visit a temple or my brother’s house – nothing. And err this was a bit, very unfair so we- I started asking them please can you give us a flat downstairs on the ground so at least she can see the garden, she can go out, you know. They said in Hackney there’s no, no four bedroom flat or house at all. You know, that’s what they said. So I was fighting for nearly seven years erm, meeting after meeting and then err, there was a erm, association- so what they did there were three hundred organisations in Hackney; err, ethnic minority, black, white, green, whatever. So they all er, chose me as their spokesperson [laughs]. So three hundred organisations and I was the spokesperson for the need of all these people, different kinds of need and I was- I got a place in social service committee. So every month there used to be a social services committee meeting in the evening and they would invite me to bring all the issues of three hundred organisations [laughs]: me, just one person. They were behind me, but I would not- we would be the spokesperson you know? And because I- they understood that I was going through this problem so I would be able to speak better than them, you know? But they would help me, they would support me, and it was-

How did you first get involved with these organisations?

Because you know the Asian association organisation was- I went there and they made me a secretary, and when they knew my dad, I asked my dad to go and joy the senior citizens club there, which was were Afro-Caribbean people all used to go together, and err because my dad from Africa he worked with all those people. Although he didn’t speak much English he could speak little few words you know. Swahili was his main language. And so all the other people, he started tracking other people, you know, he would go out, see some older people sitting on the bench and he’d say, where are you from? Africa… He would make them friends. Oh you’re from Africa, we are friends! Because he lives for seventy-five years in Africa, so then they would start trying overcome this problem, we don’t know where to go to get the bus pass, free bus pass, we don’t know what- we don’t get any pension, we don’t know – he would say okay, my daughter would help you – he would bring them home, and at first I would feed them, and take them to this office you know to get them a car. So this is how the support increases, you know, why do we let only one person- let’s all get together. So then the Asian association said oh you become our secretary, we all get together with one voice, and then something will happen – we have to change the services, you know? So that’s when we all came together, then slowly they started supporting me: you are suffering, you have your parents, you have disabled mum and this is not fair, and we have the same problem. So it wasn’t just me fighting for my problem it was fighting jointly with everybody. So I remember one instance, very important incident, it was disabled peoples year. You know the year of the disabled people. And erm, any wishes for people to help people with disability, and it was an evening meeting and I went to the meeting, my other colleague said well, this is a meeting for the disabled people, they’re going to tell us- the mayor or whoever – what they’re going to do about it, you know? How they’re going to change the services. So if you’ve got a disabled mother and you’ve been fighting for just to- to transfer to somewhere downstairs, you know ground floor, you’re even giving up one room three instead of four. I said three will do, my two sons can share the room, we don’t mind, at least it will be good for my mum to get out, get some sunshine you know. So even then they said there’s no four bedroom, there’s no flat that we cannot give her, Hackney is full of housing you know? Council housing, everybody knows it. I knew that myself, but they just said that. So I said okay, let’s tonight you go, speak on them and we’re all behind you. And err, you’ll be on there, we will all- don’t worry today something must happen. So we went about seven thirty and all this people, there was the town hall full of people, you know black, Asian, white… All you know, said today we going to find out what they’re going to do for you. And they were so very supportive toward my dad and me, you know? And very nice, very, very kind of young, old everybody. So I went in and they all stood behind, I was there in front row, and, and the mayor, the mayor, the council leader was on the stage saying oh we had it going- this is they, they said we’re going to do this, we’re going to do, we’re going to do… And I got so annoyed, you know, worked out, with all that. ‘Cos none of that was true, I was grind six and a half year, my file was XXX (00:15:40) corresponding and every time I got negative, negative… So once [laughs] he says something, and the people at the back say now’s the time! So I just jumped on the stage, I just walked on it, even now I say, what did I do, they wouldn’t understand me, what would have happened to my mum, my kids – but I just jumped on stage and grabbed the microphone from the leader of the council – err, it was a white man, you know, nice man – I used to meet him before, many meetings with him – and just said, excuse me sir, just you know, and I said okay, I want to ask a question, do you say this is the year of the disabled? I’ve got my mother, you know, so I said all the problem, and this is, this is six and a half years I’ve been fighting to get a place on the ground floor, I’m ready to give up one room, because our sick you know, at this eighty years she needs to go out, she needs to go to temple, even visit her son, you know, doesn’t live very but she can’t. So in the hospital they have to carry her like a dead person, bring her back and dump her there. Is this really fair, I’m asking this you know? And I been told there's no flat in there: and everybody was like supporting me. [Laughs] Then he says, please you know, calm down, calm down – and we said we want an answer, what are you going to do about it? You say year of the disabled, so this is year of the disabled, what are you going to do for this disabled lady, you know? So the, the, he said, he said to me give me your name and address and PA, she was sitting there writing minutes – give it to her and we, they said yes we will, before the next meeting, which is the next end of the next month that we would like to know what you’re going to- we’ll be here. Oh the people started shouting so I got down, and you won’t believe Francis, one day passed, like tonight, tomorrow no, then tomorrow morning I’m getting a letter in the post off err, offer a four bedroom beautiful house, only four or five-minutes’ walk from where I was. I don’t know if you know Hackney, Gesalund Road near Victoria Park. There’s these big houses, have you seen that?

Yeah.

Victorian houses… one of that, and here I was on the Morning Lane, all those big flats, we were in there, big flats you know? Morning Lane. We were there and if you walk from there down the road, four minutes walk is the Gesalund Road. I got a letter I said there’s seomthing wrong, it can’t be true? I opened here, opened this side, looked here, looked there, look at my name ten times and said my dad, I said, this is what here. My dad says I must be some mystic, you know? You’re not looking properly. I phoned my brother from err, he was living in Tottenham, and he came over, I said this is what I got, do you think it’s true? He said yeah, he said come on lets go now and see this place. So we went to the office, their office the lady said, this is the office, you can get the keys to view the house. I just still couldn’t believe that this could be true, I said because I was in such a problem, you know, I was so stressed out, I just said no, this life is – there’s nothing for me, nothing positive, everything is negative, negative, negative. So on the day they gave me the keys, took the keys down the road, my brother was, my dad was with me – had the keys in my hand, and I just see this house standing on the road looking at it. Still couldn’t believe- look at the letter, number is sixty-three Gesalund Road, and then my dad said- my brother said go on, open the door – I said maybe there’s some people there, can’t be this house for me. He said no open the door, if the keys don’t fit it means it’s wrong but if it fits then it’s yours. So we opened the door: that was the right house we saw. And there were nice neighbours who saw the house, and we moved there. I said to my dad they might give it to someone, tonight we should bring some stuff and put it- I just couldn’t believe… So we put our stuff there and we moved there and we lived there for nearly thirty-three years. In that time my mum and dad passed away there, but as I said so this was one my problem house, but then many others started campaigning, said no we have to change, we need to respite, care for people who need a break because I have to take my children to holiday or I get, go to hospital. Erm, I have to put my mum somewhere I have nobody here to look after her, so err they put err they had to open respite triangle, it was named, then we stopped them to have some homecare or you know, workers who could speak language you know. Though I didn’t need anyone I said no, I look after my mum single handed, I didn’t let anybody come and give her a bath, or I did it myself, you know? But for others it was other people. So we- they change our services, in hospital- catering in hospital was really bad you know? When I went my mum used to go I used to cook food, not for her but other people round her, and give it to them, because they won’t eat the food of the hospitals, it was horrible, horrible, you know? Even English food was not good, so I said to them no, I can’t have this, so this- then the question was about prayer room, my- I wanted to, something when I go and sit there for six, seven hours – somewhere to give me somewhere because I’d just lost my husband, I had no time to grieve for myself – wanted to sit and have some time to- there was no place. So I said no we need some place, you know? So they said oh no, you can share the room, you know? With the erm, room Islamic studies room, I said yeah fine but everybody’s religion is different, they want to pray five times, if I go interfere with them that’s not good, why can’t we have something separate? So I had a room which Hindus and Sikhs can share. So it was nice, and erm, so it- how things change and err, started working with the council and then, then my mum passed away, so then my dad passed away, but err [laughs] the council thought, first they thought I was a trouble maker, really trouble maker, that’s what they were calling me: that woman is a trouble ma-. See me walking down hall, she’s brought some other problem now. They would respect me, listen to me, but then they knew I wouldn’t.. and I said yeah we had problem, but we have to resolve this problem. If you, if you don’t resolve then I’ll be here; if you resolve – it’s not for me – it’s for older people who have worked all their life, they pay their taxes, now when they’re old they need something, but there’s nothing for them, just sitting the benches out there, you know? They have no money to go anywhere, so I used to – they said okay fine, we have some workers in the offices who can speak the languages, help them you know, to do form- fill the forms and things. I did as much but then I said no, you have to do something. So then my mum passed away, and then I got a letter from the council: we would like you to come and work in the council, we’ll give you a nice office, posh office, but we like you to support in work- how can- how can- how can we provide services to people XXX (00:22:35) we don’t know what to do. That’s why we, we have no idea. And err, I- so I said no I’m a- I’m not a person sitting in four walls, I’m a people’s person and I don’t like- even the salary was quite good, I said no. So, and that centre in Newham- they heard about my work[laughs] bad word spreads faster than good, you know? So it was like, oh there’s a woman there, and she’s sympathetic [laughs]. So that was contacted, but it wasn’t a erm, how can I say, Taskin knows, she used to be the manager and community member of that Neighbourhood Care Project, it was called. And I, somebody erm, the manager, he, I don’t know if through somebody, I got a message that there’s a job there, err in Hackney, in Newham there was forty-seven persons of ethnic minority. But what was happening, the people who- all the people who were ethnic minority, they were not taking up any services. They were not accessing any services whatsoever. So the council didn’t know why, your- in spite of knowing just forty-seven per cent of older people are ethnic minority, of the two thousand people who were older people, but nobody was accessing the services. And this organisation Neighbourhood Care Project was providing the funding and support to older people like getting them together, picnic, bingo whatever, so people- to reduce isolation. But non e of them were people of ethnic minority. So the manager, the director who was an Englishman as well, but he used to mix with the Asian and he wanted to know why, so he’s wanted somebody to come and tell him, and tell the councillors why the reason, why are they axing the services? So somebody approached me saying well they want somebody like you there, why don’t you apply? And they really forced me I, forced me, really forced me on the phone, and came to my house and said, fill the form now, you know? So my, I had my dad, I said no I don’t want to go to Newham, I don’t know what Newham- I didn’t even travel anywhere I just know Hackney, but Hackney I said I don’t like this because they want to- me to sit in an office and write and I don’t like- I want to go out and meet people. So I was just in that dilemma, and then at same time my dad was with me saying look, you looked after your mum, you look after me, I am fine- he was hundred and two but he was quite healthy, he said you just go. Don’t waste your time. I am so much in your life – go and work, you know. Make use of your talents and help other people. And he said fill in the form now [laughs] fill it! Send it away! If you don’t get it you don’t… I just felt erm, double minded and next morning I was called for the interview, straight away. And I went to the interview, Taskin was on my- she was on my boarding, she was on the panel. She and there were other people, two or three other and err, I got the job straight away, you know. So when I came and made the job, I was told no support, nothing okay, your job will be err, actually community development worker: that was my title. What you do: the research, you have to interview older people, and find ethnic minority- means, as you know, a big umbrella name, err darkish, Afro-Caribbean, Indian, and in Indian there’s so many different communities. You have to interview all these older people in the community, and you have to come and tell us why they are not accessing the services. This is the- this is what I was told my job- with no support, I couldn’t- there was no organisation I could go and ask, please tell me, nothing. So I said okay fine, but because, you know I’ve done that bad work already [laughs]… okay. And then I said, I was told in Canning Town it’s very racist area… you have to do the work there, but be careful they said this a racist area, they mug people, they might do anything to you. I said why you give me the job, and then you also try to scare me? Well I’ll do the job but I’m not getting scared, whatever happens we’ll see. So I started my work and I interviewed three hundred and fifty older people, from oldest communities, I’ve got everything in my office, err from darkish, Afro-Caribbean, Indian, people asking each older people see get hold of the person, ask them the reasons, you know, visit them at home and err, that it took me three and a half months to do all this work, so then I submitted a report to my committee and found all the reasons: shocking, shocking, shocking… There was so much bad things happening in the borough, and err, so I interviewed older people and I interviewed the service providers, like council, social services, err XXX social security err, the health, you know, all these fine organisations and then I said, look, this is what is happening, because I visited cases where people were dying of hunger, they had no money, yet they work, some older people had roofs leaking, cold houses, no beds and nothing, no food, nothing… and they were living in hunger, yet they had workers in the country getting old here, but they didn’t know where to go, they didn’t speak the language, there was no one to tell them, no one to help them. So this is the bad cases. When I went to the council I- I said I want to interview the directors. My- my, my director from er, from Neighbourhood was very good, no? So he was supporting me and giving me all this information, so I… we wrote letters, I want to come and visit the director. I don’t want to visit anybody’s secretary of whatever, no. I want to visit director, the top most person who’s in, who’s responsible. And when I went to interview them there was a director of social services, Mr. Skinner – I still remember him, very rude man, you know. And I said to him, I went in and said look, erm I want to know from you- there’s so many people living and this is what they’re suffering, going through, and why does social services not doing anything for them? And you know what he said to me? They don’t need it, they don’t need this services. They’ve got their families, they look after their own. They don’t need it, they got food at home, the family there, why you there ask, why should we give them food- err, all the services, they look after their own. That’s a phrase, you know? Just a false perception, and that really made my blood like boil, you know? I was seeing those people suffering and here this man is telling, well, got very angry you know. So I had big argument with him and said look, my father worked, paid all his taxes, you know, and whether he but he should be there, but you should provide a services. So I said well, I, I’ll show you now whether they need it, whatever reason I but, no you give them new reason, and I leave it to me. So I interviewed all of them then I wrote my report and they thought was ready for present to my committee, then I said fin e. So they supported me, they all supported me, and then other people from the borough, other you know, organisations, colleagues joined me, even though they were not in the older people service but as it was always they were doing , they all joined me, all support me. So we said let’s have a big conference, so we invite all these people and these older people, let them speak to them you know? All themselves rather because they might think I’m twisting things, I know, and I got a bad name also [laughs] like a bad person. So we all get nicer conference, in St Marks Church, St Marks Church and err, there we took er buses full of people, you know, older people there. At the same time I said to, I wrote to this director, four directors, I said I would like to invite you to be on the top table on the day. I want you, don’t send me any rep or anybody, I want you yourself to come and listen to this people yourself. What they’re going through in your borough and then you’ll see whether they're being looked after their own or not. I got so angry with the word he spoke to me, no… so on that day with a house full I had- we had organised four workshops on different, you know topics, and all, and on the top table people were saying how could you do this Ramesh we’ve been working this borough, we never got this, they never come to our conference, they send somebody, or they will give us feedback. [Laughing] At least my bad err, Ramesh for all the four directors were sitting on the top table. And we had four workshops each workshop housing, housing director, social services, social director, social skill he is there, all around the table, and I had a lot of support from my colleagues in the borough, Taskin was there as well, Ramesh was there, Ramesh was helping the housing thing you know? So we were all there and err, the workshop four o’clock when the workshops ended they had to come and you know, for the feedback, these people’s faces… could see the faces of this directors completely change. And then they started giving their feedback and the director of social services stood up, the same man, you know. Oh my god, he said, I’m so sorry I didn’t know what was going on in my borough, I didn’t know, I thought that they all happy, nobody comes to us, so they don’t need the services. But listening to people in the workshop, people were crying, we haven’t eaten and we’re on food for I don’t know how many months. We listen everyone XXX (00:31:50) but we haven’t seen, we haven’t gone, some said we haven’t gone out of our house for six months, we are disabled, we couldn’t travel, you know. So all this kind of sad story, so he said we are so so sad, we would like to help this people now, but err, we don’t know how to do it, we need support. And so all this discussion with my committee members all this went on and I said well, we’re here to support, we are here to support you if you give us money. All we need is money, without money, you know? And after that a report was written and err, things they started, I made friends you know, they were my friends, you know, people in the social service. We all started working. So we said- but my, my research, I researched on many different issues, but one- my main research showed me that more was missed, mostly the people were suffering, the main problem was isolation. Loneliness. And that was a cause of depression, and depression linked to mental health problem, and then you can see what happens, because lifes destroyed you know. So I, from my own er experience, I said first thing is to tackle with isolation. So for isolation, all this people – I set up, we set up a committee with the help of my colleagues and Taskin was one of them, and we called it err Sub Committee… so yeah, then er when I said because I first my principle I agreed my committee I don’t want to work on religion, I don’t want to work on politics, I want to work on people. All everybody saying because my, my previous er way of life in Africa- you worked together, there was nothing you, you or me or so on, so… and we named the project Ekta.

What does that mean?

Ekta means unity, oneness, solidarity, coming together. It’s a word which we use in err, muslim language in Pakistani in English, in Guajarati, in Punjabi, Urdu – it’s the same word. Ekta means unity, solidarity, oneness. So named the project Ekta, and err, I said fine, now first thing is we have to tackle isolation. So we set up this erm, err centres as-

What year was this in sorry?

This was in nineteen- by that it was nineteen eighty eight, took some time, you know? So it was ninety-eight we set up the err… the group, called first group was Milab, means meeting – so erm, and then what we did in that oh, we, we had buses which have community transport, pick up this people- we, we know when, were spread and I made so many leaflets and this and that, we had one big, big, big party you know, you know how five hundred people came. Just three parties [laughs] I remember bringing food from everybody helped me we used to- everybody was even Taskin’s mum became my volunteer, remember that. So there was so many volunteers, because volunteers were not a concept, you know, in Asian communities until then. Concept of volunteer – no it wasn’t there. So when I set up the centre I needed somebody to help me – I would go and ask director become my co-volunteer, they would look at me and say why would I come and do something for free for you? I have so much work at home you know, because that concept was very difficult for Asian communities to go and work for free, so I had to- it took me, it made me angry at time, but it made me understand why- their side of, point of view. I said look if you come to the group, come and see, you’ll make friends. And then the, I’ll help you, if you’re looking for a job, I will help you no send you get training or something, and once you get the training, maybe there's a job and I can give you reference, and if you get a job I can support you as well, at least try, you know. So it was difficult but once they started coming, there was a flat of volunteers because we had things for them how- picnic, getting friends together, and this is after their sovereignty. So we set up group and we used to bring members there, and once they there first was to sort out the problems. As I said they didn’t know where to go to get the pass, how to get err a food, you know, apply for things, there’s so many different services, but they were not taking part in it. So then the people in the borough, that was great thing, people in the borough, people like you, young people working in whatever different you know, offices, and I said look I need your help. They were ready. So they were say, I said look I need to apply for all these people for whatever their rights is, I don’t know what they can claim, I don’t know, I don’t know, I’m not expert, but I want you to come and apply. So these- they used to come to me once a month, have a surgery, young people, and they would- we would fill forms for everybody, you know, I said if they don’t get it’s no harm, just fill and send it to them. Amazing, end of two or three months, they got- started getting money, some would get thousand pound to buy a fridge, to buy a bed, to get their roofs done, or just for, you know, ‘cos that was their right. They didn’t apply so money started getting and they said oh my god, we’ve got money in our pocket, we could, we used to ask our son and daughter for ten pence to go to temple so we started and these people help me, so- we apply for the bus passes, whatever thing was there available, and social services to come and hold a surgery in the groups every month, to do whatever they needed, you know? So changes in the houses, whatever, disability were things, you know? XXX (00:37:28) used to come, you know? So things started changing, you know? And er everybody had like a new life. Dan, Dan… so what we, we had this project, we all get together, all the my colleagues and we said let’s all have together, I won’t- I always believe working together, you know, even now. So we set up this err, group called err, Elders in Newham: Know Your Rights. That was the team of my conferences were, and we set up this small er orga- like a committee so once a month we all would get together, sit down there perform, it was like a forum, and erm, what we did we together make a list of things, what to- gaps, and there were thirty-two of them, I still remember, thirty-two. And the top first of that, err meals on the wheels, how we going to change that. Then leisure services, then sports, then housing, you know all like just thirty two of them. And we would meet and say okay, so we decided we will err, tackle with one issue at a time, talking too much won’t help. Twen- you, you choose one issue and see, we have some collect sample of information, proofs what is a problem, how can you resolve, who will take part in that you know from our side, and then go and target this person whoever council whatever, ask them, bring them here, talk to them you know, and last put pressure on them. They have to do something to resolve this problem. Come back next Monday and they should tell us what they’ve done. Oh my god, where these people have come from all of a sudden [laughs] come to attack us, you know. So we chose one, I remember in, because my group had started getting bigger and bigger by then, and Asian proper started coming up because they would expect us to resolve a problem. Oh I’m not getting food or what can I do but- so we said okay fine, it’s not our problem, but we- we’ll fight it too. So the first one that was erm, meals on the wheels, then it was like housing and others then it was leisure services- there were many others but we said we’ll tackle one. First is some everybody wants food to eat you know, so that’s a main one. And we’re all sitting I think, how many, I think ten or twelve of us sitting together and we used to discuss. So we said look, we sort elector to the office you know, social services – the director was Deborah Cameron, Taskin knows her. Good friend but she was very rude as well. So, and we me, no, she no friends at all… But I said I don’t get, I don’t need friend, it’s not for me personally, the help is for the older people. I’m going to work on their behalf and im not getting scared of people saying she’s very rude, she’ll say something. I said well let her say whatever she’ll say to me. It’s not my personal thing, I know how to handle it you know. So they said yeah, we know, you got black magic, you come from Africa, I said say whatever you want, we going to tackle this [coughs]. So we wrote a letter through my organisation of course, they were behind me, helping me – they would care for that. So we had got a letter to them, it said well, we would like to talk to, to you know, one of the person, err and err I had a meeting with Deborah Cameron and said we have got a problem with food, I need them to change the food, I need you to change the food, you know. Food for the people who don’t eat this food you know, I’m not saying the food is bad but they won’t eat it. My own mum won’t eat, why I’m blaming other people. If I was her mum for two days I’m going hospital she said no put the bread and butter I’ll do that. She wouldn’t eat it, you know. So it’s not what she’s eaten for eighty years you know, so I said no we- you because being such a big person for the people, she said, err, I said err, she said I’ve only got one Ramesh- I’ve got only one chef in social services; Italian chef, he can cook only one kind of- I don’t have, I don’t have money to have another chef there, and she was rude like saying, Asian food are so differ- there’s so many different kinds of food from so many different countries, how can I get so many chefs. I said okay Deboarah don’t get in to panic, can I meet your chef? Can I have a word with him? She’s saying no, no, no – what would you like to do? He’s only one chef and he needs to cook so many din- lunches, and err… I said look, calm down, just let me meet your chef you know, I just want to meet him, you come with me, no? I would like to meet him, you come with me I just like to meet him, you come with me and I just want to… she was, she didn’t want to but when I wouldn’t just give up no, said you can’t just say no to me. So she said okay come, alright, she said, so she sent me back saying okay, all these XXX (00:41:58) so in such time came there in social, it was a big social service kitchen in Newham, erm Stratford those days. So I went there in the morning and she was standing there, so I went and said hello, yes, okay here. Went in the kitchen and this big, tall, big you know, Italian chef came over in his apron, very scary until he came very nice man, shook hand and err, what can I do for you lady? I said I want your help chef, I need help. I said what kind of help you know? She was just watching, I said look, this is my problem, I’ve got so many people, older people, who can’t, not because the food is bad, food is very good but because they haven’t eaten that food, you know, I would like to them to have something to eat because they said that age they need some food, you know, healthy food to eat you know, and that’s where I need your help. I said it in such a nice way, you know very friendly. He said that’s no problem what’s the problem he said, we chef’s we can cook any food in the world. You just tell me, give me an idea. I said at the moment to start with lets sell lentils and rice. He said is that all? Let’s start with that, I don’t know how many people will eat, I don’t know in the moment, I’m just starting this from me they need to eat healthy food. So I said let’s do it, he said okay, let’s come in the kitchen. She got shocked. She said he’d fire me or say something to me rude or something, she was just- she couldn’t say a word. So we went in the kitchen and he showed me the lentils, you know, I said no not this one, those other ones, the yellow ones, so I said yellow ones are mostly- it gets cooked very quickly, I said I’ll get you that, you know. So err I said this is all you boil and then this is you do, and rice anyone can boil rice you know. He said that’s not a problem. I said fine. So he said tomorrow I’ll do that. So he did, and then back to my own people they gave me a headache as well, the older people, so I said to them, now we’ve done this. You were saying we were dying of hunger we couldn’t get food, now you get the food, you know. Please eat. So they, two or three days they eat lentils and rice [laughs] every day is the same, we get fed up of your food, they were after me. I said to them, listen, I’ve started something, at least something is there. You eat, when they bring food to your house, you know, those disabled people, err you eat whatever you eat, you can- even if you don’t eat, don’t say I don’t want it. They say there’s no need, they stop it, I want to carry further and improve it, but once you- you don’t want to stop it once you started. So eat what you want, if you can’t eat leave it there or just throw it out but don’t say no, don’t send it back. And there I was working him you know, I said can we start some vegetable, can we do this with- I didn’t even tell Deborah Cameron, I went there, took a nice big box of chocolate for him. So he was on my side, said okay fine fine darling. So he started cooking vegetables, I said put some you know kind of like masala, they like spices, they’re used to spiced food. So he started putting some vegetable in the rice, vegetable rice is the same, why don’t you throw some vegetable, it’ll become dishes, different dishes. So it started working but people were grumbling you know? At the same time, err I wanted to bring this – redeuce this isolation as well. So we started, a whole committee of us, we started discussing that we need a place where all these people who, who can walk you know, disabled is okay, they can get food at home, those who can’t go out- but those who can, why nothave a place where they can all sit together, have the food, so in that way they become friendly to each other, make friends, that isolation is reduced, plus we can also give information with other services for health, whatever. And that’s how we started thinking of place. And then we started thinking of the housing, where we can this, there’s no place whatsoever here: there’s no place in Hack- in Newham to have a centre, they completely rejected. Very centre service first question was no, but we didn’t give up we still went and said no, no, no then this, SubCo- you know, the building belonged to a gentleman, Mr… Mr. Banojee. And he was big tough man you know? And they said he wouldn’t- only let people of his f- either favoured people in that house, it was a centre for the public, but only some people his favourite people can enter there you know? Very tough, very rude man – and slowly we started working with him you know, slowly, friendly. We used to get inside by bribing money, you know. And slowly the council said look, you are- this place is lying empty, make some use of it, why don’t you work with people. He didn’t- he thought maybe people just take his place away, but slowly, so happened that he wasn’t well, he couldn’t afford, whatever, and then the council took the pla- building, gave him money whatever, I don’t know that bit. But we had the place you know? So when we had the place, erm first we started we had the food from the council who err, err cook and provide and send the food there, you know? And then all this people from my group, from other groups they would all go there and er, they fully free and first it was completely they could sit down, have this food there, so they make their friends, you know, people they hadn’t seen, or they hadn’t known, you know, living the same borough for years. So they make friends, but then at the same time we know, find out what is- what else we can do for them. What services we can do, what is their problem, you know? And there was some volunteers helping them, their language. So it’s, it’s a reduction of isolation plus many more thing: to help things as well, you know? When you know people you talk, oh some people found their friends they didn’t know they were living in the same borough – who came from Africa. So it started from-

Wow.

-And then this, this started and then err, we found a committee, you know like I was one of the committee members and other people, and then the question was err what should we name the centre, so there were things and I put my name for SubCo. Then it was chosen and won five pound but they never gave me those five [laughs] I still say Taskin my five- five pound but that interest is going to five hundred now you know? So SubCo, err SubCo is a Hindi world as well. Sub: everybody; co: for. For everybody. But at the same time SubCo is a short of Subcontinent – so it’s got two meanings. Subcontinent: everybody from subcontinent can be part of that, can go there, and it’s for everybody. So then it started. We were all part- I was a member for nearly nine to ten years? Nine or ten years? Management committee member, so we used to meet and you know, how the services increased, went through many changes SubCo in those years. And we did so many different services there, so many different things happened there, but then at the same time my own process Ekta was also flourishing fast, so first for one centre, then two, we had eight centres in different catchment areas. One err, four were for totally women, two for mixed men and two were for, one for Bangladeshi men, you know, ‘cos they don’t speak Hindi, they’ve got their own language so they don’t mix with the other people, so we had Bangladeshi men, and same thing Bangladeshi women. Bangladeshi men wouldn’t have women with them, women don’t like to be with men, so we had to separate one and they wouldn’t mix with other Bang- err, women, Asian women because this language barrier. So we had one in Windsor Park in XXX (00:49:23), so there were eight centres and a flood of volunteers, we had so many different projects, you know. But I soon stop doing my research, I was still doing research, what is the lack? What is needed, what is needed in our community? What the problem? [Coughs] And at first my first thing which was why that erm, good or bad, what you can say, I was known here and there, new… different projects came and sat and working with us and it is, whatever you call it. So this people came to me er from erm, it was called Health Promotion, look department they said erm, there’s a lot of problem with er breast cancer, where screening, especially the Bangladeshi women, they don’t – er sorry – they don’t come, err go for their appointments… for the mammography, and they leave it until too late when crisis stage comes. Oh, and then sometimes it’s too late so they lose their lives leaving very young families. And can you tell us how to help them, can you do something? And erm, well I said look, erm, you tell me what you do to, to inform, inform them that they should go to see the doctor, or they should go for this appointment? They said erm, er we translate the letter in Bangladeshi and we just drop it through the letter box. I said that’s not going to happen, er I’ll help you. First thing because they can’t read and write their own language, ‘cos I know from experience even their very young, still very few, they come from very more kind of regions in Bangladesh, they can’t read and write their own language. First thing, even if they write they don’t get back and forth, sometimes they don’t pick up, they have some pick up who can’t and they think oh, even if they can read English, they say what is asking my wife to go mammography? In the bin. So I said that’s not going to help. So they say can you tell us a way where we can you know, try to make them aware, this is for your life: question of your life and that. So I said okay I can give you an idea but I had no money, you know. Because we were a voluntary sector, and my money was coming for different projects you know, I can’t just, not millionaire I said. So I said all I can do is give you idea, and give you my volunteers for free [coughs]. And erm, well why not we produce a play? The message through a play. So this gets people see it and then they get it in here, you know, they understand. Because I had some experience from my Hackney thing, we did so many different plays over there, and I knew it was a play on incest and so many, other things. And it really worked you know, so I said I can do that. So there was a lady err, my friend from theatre err, so she said okay, she was an actress, director – Asian woman, she said okay if you give me an idea I don’t mind writing the script, after asking. And I said to Health Promotion, you have got money, you’re just wasting your money on this leaflets, why don’t you use that money and we, we produce this play, and then we take the play around, show it to people. And err, see what happens. And like I give them my six volunteers who became actors, they were actors. And this lady, er I mean we had workshops of course, different stories, so different people, and we sort of like produced this play; first it was very funny, first we produced in Asian language, mix of Guajarati, Punjabi, so everybody can under- not just one language, Asian language, but not one so everybody can get the message. So it was only half an hours play with a question and answer at the end, and err it was like funny in the first few minutes, then least, like the story, the story was of woman trying to hide, you know. Oh, no it’s the husband who’s trying to hide from the woman that she’s got a letter to go, because he thinks she- the doctor would have look at her breasts, she- he will look at her naked, will he? And then you know, this kind of wrong kind of thing. And err so he is just teased- but- but the cancer doesn’t stop there, so it is something you know, and then it’s too late, she loses her life and then her young children, very sad. So this play was giving message that if you have any lump, first you should know it was teaching her to examine your breast, if you think you’ve got a lump and you get a letter don’t stop, even if they don’t- just go to your GP. If you get a letter go there, you know, and err, lump doesn’t mean you’ve got cancer, could be just nothing, just a lump, you know, but you should not ignore it. It was a very funny and very nice exciting thing you know, with a song in it. And erm, and we sort of started touring you know. We got money from them, it was so exciting people liked the play, enjoyed it, the volunteers who had never acted before you know, so we employed somebody for a short period, artistic director, she used to come and have workshops, and was a worker taking them, talking to them. And then the English ladies came to me and said you think this problem is only for Asian women? That they don’t keep up there- oh no, English ladies don’t go for their appointments, even they ignore it. So really you should have this play in English as well. So the play in, on err that Asian language was called Rasmir’s Secret, because keep it a secret, don’t tell them. But we have another in English called Invitation – it was in different story, bit different, though they can read and write, but still they were hiding it you know. So what will happen, this and that, the other thing. So the play was very famous, and we got err an award for that from the Health Council, so the- so I still, my research went on and then I just went on and then err my surgeon showed me another problem in the Asian community like any other community was elder abuse. Elder abuse happens in all the communities you know, err so it, Asian communities is no different. But it’s again, hiding under the carpet, don’t talk about it, because it’s their own people who abuse you. Your own family members abuse you, how can a mother say my son, taking my property, my money, so it’s very difficult. But suffering is there, pain is there, you know, loss is there. And I interview so many people and found so many very heart-breaking stories, so then we applied for money from Awards For All, and I got good amount of money because as a problem nobody wanted to touch it; don’t talk about. And I said no, you can’t just keep quiet you know, this is something that has to be- people are living longer now these days and older people are one who are caught up with this, you know, problem. So they said oh, you will have problem Ramesh if you tackle Asian community will be in uproar you know [laughs] XXX (56:16). People will- won’t like you, and how you going to tackle. I said I’ll tackle it, I’ll tackle it – if I see somebody I can’t just keep quiet, I won’t. So yeah, we, we had that project, again we produced a play, because from our experience we knew this is the only way to raise people’s awareness, give the message. This leaflets won’t help. You have to have somebody which really punch something you know, really gets them you know. Maybe it’s too much, but still they will think about it. so this was a play called Dignity. So I had an artistic director, I had erm, a people you know, very err, like erm, err people who had done things in the past you know, qualified people – so they came and worked with the director, actors, some new actors came in: one or two were professionals, and the other were volunteers. And the project run for five and a half years-

Wow.

-We have toured all of the country up to Scotland- we were part- the play was shown on their erm, err you know, the policy writing days. They had to write in the policy, the play showed this is a lack- why? Because the elderly people as you know, there was five or six times of elder abuse, it could happen, could be happening anywhere, you know? Even doctors can abuse, you know hospitals can abuse, even centres can abuse. People don’t know their because knowing their abusing older people so they have to know what is it. So we organised training for people, we were the first ever organisation of Asian err, or charity to organise training. So we trained nearly a hundred and eighty people, we trained err, people you know volunteers, low level like volunteers. We trained nurses, doctors also, I even went to doctors surgeries – this is how you should be opening your eyes. A patient comes to you, very depressed, doesn’t sleep at night and say, when you see there’s some kind of marks on the legs and hands, you shouldn’t just be giving sleeping tablets, you should know why- what is all this happening. You know you don’t understand this could be elder abuse happening and she doesn’t want to hear, she doesn’t want to tell you about it- being abused by family. So we tried to resolve it in many different ways and erm, the play was all over the place and we got er, again we got award for that. So that play then, because the funding finished twice with them. One different plays, you know – one was on financial abuse, you know finances, the other was abuse in the care homes, and the third was finished shortly because money ran out halfway, that was elder abuse, properties, and things like these, mainly family members, you know? So it was very, very good you know, people got the information that helped them, use to go give talks to small groups. Older people’s groups, tell them this is kind of things happen to you, don’t just take it – it’s abuse [coughs]. You should do something about it [coughs]. And so when that project ended, then my – as I said – my goes on you know, I can’t sit still. The other my- so I was doing my research and found er, dementia. Dementia is another err, challenge- it’s in all the communities but many come to Asian communities, again it’s the stab wounds, people- whatever you call it, don’t talk about it, don’t tell anybody about domestic violence- people keep on suffering for years, and years you know? And err, XXX (00:59:51), which is dementia as you know, erm, it’s a progressive disease, doesn’t go away, there's no cure for it- so even now at the moment, still the need – but we started in nineteen err, sorry two thousand fourteen I applied for funding- I’ve been working on dementia since nineteen ninety six but was just like talking, err there was a conference in err Leeds – a European conference for which I was a part – Dementia Matters, is a big document, you can get it from somewhere and read it, I was part of it. So we started working in nineteen ninety four on that, to raise awareness of dementia they say it’s because people talking, doctors come from Europe, but nobody did anything practical about it until now it’s come to like a front. So in nineteen- in two thousand and fourteen we applied for funding, Rewards For All, and we got the funding and so we started writing a play, and er a lot of workshops and the play is called Dementia’s Journey. You know you can look on my website and see it, and erm the play was very, very popular erm, err it got international award for that – we won international award for that. First time ever, a small, small charity like Ekta, you know, so was the award picture – so in that year, two thousand and fifteen, in Birmingham we got award, international award, for that play. And we done a hundred and forty plays all around London and neighbourhood boroughs, and err we, the last play was- our last showcase was in the Cineworld Cinema here in the center of Newham in two thousand and sixteen, so that was our last play. But still people are asking, you know, because the actors were all volunteers, some had gone on holiday, so the play had to stop. But until we get a new, new actors the replacements. So that is how erm, then I retired- two thousand and twelve. Two thousand and twelve slowly the funding, the social started cutting funding. Two thousand and twelve they cut our funding, Ekta’s funding, main funding I mean. So- and then, that’s the year erm, I retired: officially on paper… [laughs] not from work actually, but err, so err for the last six years I’m doing the same work, as a volunteer, running erm, Ekta – but our members are decreasing because they’re getting older, frail, most of them are becoming disabled. And we are, we are now er like drop-in centre, people come and sit and then go. We are care, care organisation be friendly and support. When somebody is referred to us by social services, by health, anywhere, word-of-mouth, then they become a member and we know the person from A to Z. What’s the problem, you know? So they are our member we are responsible for them. We do everything that we can for them to help them. So it’s not like person comes today and tomorrow gone. There are people with us for the last thirty two years, who are members, and they’ve grown old with us. But with the cuts in social services, the funding has become very big problem for us. Also I used to have ten staff. We lost them , now I’ve got one lady who’s again working with the volunteers with me, and we’ve got volunteers you know, and although we, we- it’s very, very difficult now. So I don’t know how long it’s been but we’re still running it, trying to help, but I’m at the same time, as I said, I’m not the person just keep quiet, so I’m trying to do as much as helping other charities. I’m part of many charities you know, which is a way I can do, you know, just being there, helping, home visiting, talking, giving you know help. But at the moment my main interest is dementia now. Because dementia is something people, see are not aware of it you know, so we try to encourage them and err, because it was very close relative of my family, my daughter in laws mum, she died four or five weeks ago from Alzheimer’s. And erm, I- I tried to inform the community, er the family members, tried my best to inform them, tell them but nobody would listen because again, question is people know, what would people say? They link it to madness, people might say oh, they are so rich, they have all this and people, how can they get dementia in their family? How can they get- you know, hide her. So they would hide, they would not tell anybody, and progress, she went through hell of a life, you know. She died only four or five weeks ago, so yeah, that’s what at the moment… And there are other things in my mind, so I don’t know, there’s no money we still carry on you know? But I like to do something erm, just to see if I can pull people away, I’m getting old myself- I’m old anyway, but I try to see that if I can do something erm, ‘cos erm people are as you know, people are aging. They’re living longer, but as they’re living longer there are so many health problems, you know? And with this so erm… council or government saying there’s no money, there’s no money, who’s going to look after them, you know? These are the people who worked this country, you know, they pay their taxes, and now this is the golden time they should be sitting enjoying their life, you know, rather than begging, and they have to think of either I have food or I have pay my heating bills, because in this weather, they need both, they need hot food, they need heating as well, but they have to try to balance you know, why? They’ve done all this for this life. And that really makes me angry you know? So yeah, but erm, I’m going to stop there [laughs]. Yeah, so that’s my life [laughs] yeah…

Well thanks for saying that, that’s really nice. Erm, do you mind if we take a break now, and maybe I can come back and ask you a few questions-

No problem, do you want any more tea, coffee?

[Pauses for few seconds] [Restarts at 1:05:54]

You know was telling that we had made a list of things erm, different issues that were lacking in this borough and wanted them to do something about them, erm we- I told you about the meals on the wheels, the food, the next one was after a few there was leisure services. And this is something which the whole country knows about it. The leisure services, so we went to the leisure, it was nothing whatsoever, the leisure services, for older people from Asian community. There were things, yeah, swimming pool was there, everything was there, but when I ask some women, do you know the swimming pool, they said do they have it? Do they have it here? We don’t know if it is here I know it is not for us, it is for the white people, because that’s how- this is colonial thing you know? Can we use them? Are we allowed to go there? They didn’t even have a clue that at the leisure centre there was a swimming pool there, they can go and have a swim there. And we said my god, you know this is bit shocking. So I said okay, now we all got up, now we going to do this, you know, why not? You know? So , there, again because it was my list, I was setting up new project, I was trying to campaign for this services, so they were pushing me for everything, Ramesh, Ramesh come I need to get the stick you know, I don’t mind. So again, I said to Deborah, the lady – the director of social services, she was from Fred Parson. I said- and there were two support development officers working in the leisure- uh in the council in the town hall. So I approached them, and I said to them I would like to set up a session, this, listen a session, swimming session for Asian older women: Asian older and then women. And they both started looking at my face and they thought I’d gone crazy, you know? And err, I said here ,I want to set up one, you know. they said are you sure Ramesh? You think Asian older women would go swimming? Are you sure about it? I said that’s not your problem, that’s my problem, but I want you to give me a slot. But slot only for women, and only for my women. I don’t public this. Only for Asian women, only for my Ekta women, and I want one hour for it. And then the other condition on top is that, the, you know the, the pool at that end should be women, the instructor she should be a woman. And now the, oh my god, this woman is asking too much, she’s really gone crazy. No, no, no – Ramesh this won’t be allowed. I said to you all these years they’ve never been given an opportunity, I want to do them. Oh no they won’t come swimming, they won’t- err, how can you get them for, where their swimming costume? I said that’s not your problem. They haven’t even seen there’s a swimming pool in this borough. They don’t even know what it looks like in their life, some might have seen one in their other countries, but not here. So I don’t want you to mention swimming costumes at all, I want first them to go and see the swimming pool, what it looks like, and you don’t, if you want to come with me you can come with me, let’s see what happens. I don’t know if they’ll like it but I want to give them what you haven’t given all these years. So they said well you’ll have to ask Deborah Cameron, so I said fine I’ll ask her. So then we went and she took me, I went there as well to Deborah Cameron, and you know, like I said I’m a woman who can’t turn back, you know, so I said okay Deborah, we’d like to have this. She’s saying, look I don’t want you to mention costumes for this – this is very funny story – it was in the papers in the country. I said I don’t want you to mention costumes, you know, let’s see, I want them to see the opportunity first. She said okay, she gave me the day, such and such day, Monday morning, it was Monday I remember that, Monday morning, ten till eleven. I said first tell your staff to put black bags on the windows so nobody can look in the women because they have never seen this. So I said all that, and the women should be- the instructor should be woman, the staff should be women- and only for my Asian ladies, ten or twelve, whoever comes. I have a group but I don’t know who will turn up. So I said only for my women, no outsider. She had, she tried to reluctantly say okay, because she knew I wasn’t going to say yes to whatever she said. So I said okay, you come if you want to, and I said to those other two ladies, you are welcome to come you know. And then I went back and I told my ladies, this is another bit you know. I said to them, on Monday morning we’re going to swimming, she’s saying Ramesh what’s gone wrong with you? Are you alright? I said what’s wrong? Swimming is not for us, it’s for our grandchildren, who go swimming every week, you know? It’s not for us, we are old ladies, our time is to go up there, go upstairs. I said no, you’re going nowhere until you got your pass from upstairs. There’s no pass, so you are on this planet, when you get the pass you know nobody can stop you, you or me, we all have to go. But you haven’t got a pass, so why don’t you enjoy your life here? I said Monday morning, we are all going there, you’ll see what it is like, you know will see. So you don’t have to wear costumes, you bring your change of clothes, and one towel. I said don’t bring, no costume, because they hadn’t even seen a costume what it looks like. SO I said just bring a change of clothes you know. So I said, are you coming? Yes… they were scared of me. They thought shall we say yes or no? They said yes. Yes, yes. There were fourteen who got right, got a sixteen seater bus, so fourteen is alright, I’ll be there, and one my driver will be so we said okay. I said Monday morning I’m coming with my driver to pick you up, so be ready at such and such time and bring your towel, and err change of clothes, you know? So fine. I’m going by house, I’m sick I can’t go, I got a bug or this, all these excuses, these lame kind of… So I, some of the house I had to really go inside, take them out of the back. You are coming. Well I said I’ve done all this work, if they’re giving me shame. And about eight ladies you know, very reluctantly. Some of them I had to really carry them you know, come on, come on, come on. Then my volunteers were there with me, and these two ladies err, the sports development officer and Deborah was standing there you know? And I told my volunteers, tell this ladies you know, not to be scared of them. Today we’re going to see and see how it works out. I’m not sure myself whether they will succeed, they haven’t seen me, I don’t know what’s going to happen. But I want them to give them an opportunity to try what happens, you know? So my volunteers who used to- knew some of the ideas, they said Ramesh don’t worry we’ll deal. So they told the lady, the instructor, put the you know the floor, the you know different things, you know the colourful things, it was teaching pool. So teaching pool is only up to here, people can’t get drowned there. So it was teaching pool, you know, I asked for teachers, and not the main pool, I don’t want to force the people getting drowned. So teaching pool, and err my volunteers went first, and they opened the floor, you know coloured floors, the lights on, the first in the water, you know, whatever colourful thing, looks so beautiful. So when my volunteers members came in, I was with the members in case some of them ran away. I was walking with them and the volunteers were already there sitting trying to splash water- the members went oh my god! So this is called swimming pool? That’s why our children like to come every time they want, they say we want to go swimming. Oh this is beautiful, and I say to my volunteers, listen what they’re saying, because we’re going to work on that you know? They like it, what should be done, you know? So the volunteers, members went inside all the ladies, and they were bit perplexed in the water and oh the beautiful… So I said to her I said you can sit there near the you know, near the water, you can sit down and you can splash the water with your hands. See what you like it? So they all sat down there you know, like there, and.. oh it’s nice and warm water, with their clothes, whatever clothes, saris or whatever they’re wearing, nobody said anything. I said now after a while I said, and there this ladies are just looking – I said now if you like the water it’s warm you can put your legs and splash them as well. So they put their legs inside and they liked it, and so I said- I said just watch please, don’t say anything. And they said okay, just standing- so afterwards I said to the ladies I said, you can go in the water, nobody’s going to stop you, go in the water as you are, with your clothes, you’ve got a change of clothes with us. Just go in the water, see how you feel. They went in the water, and they started walking in the water, and you know when they’re wearing saris, the saris come out like a tent, and then they’ve got these clothes like you know. So my volunteers, I was here, and the other one was saris, they were like blocking their walking. She saying oh, next time I’m not wearing sari I’m wearing something else, it’s very nice, you know. So they’re like, liked it. The other one said yeah its nice next to, I’m going to wear shorts and XXX (1:14:57) I’ve got a long one, this and that. So they liked it. And then we came out I said would you come? They said of course we’ll come next week. So slowly I said, look, now them numbers increased, and erm, er I said still we are not talking of swimming costumes, just give them chance you know. They said it’s legal this, I said I can be legal, all this time it was illegal you didn’t give them chance. I said let it be legal until they are sure, and i assure you that everything will happen as legal- but give them some chance. Nobody is going to drown, nobody is going to – they’re all here, you know we’ve got volunteers to look after, then we’ve got your pool attendant. And so then they kept, gave me- they gave me thirty sessions without clo- with costume. After thirty session, Ramesh, there will be a problem if something happens, people will come from upstairs, this and that. They were just trying to- I said, but before thirty sessions I said to them, I said, well you like it? Now this is the rule we have to wear this something because this is not right, you know. Yeah, yeah, but we don’t know. We don’t want to wear those big ones, you know, big costume and hair, err Muslim ladies said it’s not our religion. Even Asian, even Sikh ladies say it’s because they have never worn it. So I had to design a costume for them… I asked my dad, brought big clothes he brought from Aldgate, and I had to cut down just like that, trousers to short, one piece, all one piece, with shorts up to here, not here, up to here [laughs]. And there was a button at the back you know, so they can wear- it’s all one piece. And I just took measurement from each and sort of like stretchable clothes, so it fit everybody. So I made that for them, because they liked it. But then it went on , and then slowly what happened, I was surprised one day I went there, one ladies wearing a readymade costume, and the next time another one is wearing and it slowly things change, and then their time came when my costume was like old style and they was all modern. And they would not miss a session, you know? The group ran for nearly eighteen years, but because of you know the XXX centre had to close down, there was a XXX (1:17:10). Err, but every Monday morning snow or no snow they would be ready for the bus, bus would pick them up, take them there, they have a swim, and then they take them home. I’m surprised, I’ve got photos in my office and we were all shocked, you know? So we had our own instructor and some of them started learning swimming, they used to start, one, there was an old lady, ninety two years old, she started, she had learned swimming and she was swimming like a fish, at that age, you know? So they were not given chance – given chance people can do anything. And this story came up, you know, they themselves, council themselves put it in their magazine. And it was the first time ever, it came out that- it was all over the country, the story spread and they started putting up sessions for- erm, sessions for Asian women. I got so many phone calls, how did you do this, what did you do this, I said it’s not easy, but it has been quite difficult, but it happened, you know. And then, err even now, now they can go to any public place, I mean some of my volunteers go to mixed classes now, because they are closer they go to East Ham. They don’t feel so- so that was really very excited thing to happen, but err, it took some time, you know. Yeah.

That’s really nice.

Yeah [laughs].

How many people did you have coming to the sessions?

Oh, the session first it was sixteen on the bus you know, because we had one bus. But the other people could make their own way. I, then year ago we were asked the question, then we had to change from teaching pool to bigger pool because it was small. So we had bigger pool and we used to put rope between the good swimmers and those who are learenrs. And the- you used to get completely full, you know. And then those who learned we had to transfer them to the main pool, and they started going to the main pool. And then slowly they started going to the main pool with the men, I couldn’t believe it. And slowly the things change, so then they went and then they went to sixty even. Yeah it went to sixty, so they had to make their own way. Only we used to have only one bus, so people used to make their own way on the Romford Road you know. But it became so popular because women would not stop going because they said it helps their pains, you know. All this women had pains in the muscle pain, so it for their own ben- they used to go have steam there, sauna, then come feel quite fresh, you know. So this was like a very moving story. Though it was very difficult you know, but in the end it was something we really achieve. It was a great achievement that people thought an Asian older women can’t swim, or they can’t go swimming, was not for them you know, here they found the project was so successful they even had to employ a worker who was speaking Engl- Asian language on the reception to talk to them and the women used to, then they talking to whole public you know? Oh they said oh why you only group you know? Open to whole public anybody can come in, and women said we didn’t even know there was a swimming pool here. We thought yeah its pool here, there is a leisure centre, but it’s not for us, it’s only for white people.

Really?

Because nobody told them, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah… that was really, really, you know I just can’t believe it you know? There are many other things but this two, the meals on wheels and this, it gave me stress but… but to me we got it done in the end you know.

All sounds like it paid off.

Yeah. And then I don’t know if you know, the housing director, must have erm, Taskin must have told you about this, Amargarh? The nine storey building?

No.

In Green Street?

No.

Okay, alright. I don’t know how she missed that… In that list of thirty two, the other missing gap was housing. Sheltered housing, sheltered accommodation. Again in my research it came up that there were some people who wanted to have their own place. They were living in their families, you know? But it was difficult. Elder abuse was taking place, maybe if it was big house- small house, big family, you know? And then the generation gap, that’s the main thing I found in my research . There’s a generation gap, so in our time it was erm, children can share the room with the grandparents, but the generation gap, nobody understand, the language barrier you know, between grandchildren. Grandchildren didn’t want to share their room so there was this kind of thing, and the grandparents wanted to be on their own you know? So they just, the first thing was to have their own place for whatever reason, and there was nothing. So we started campaigning, sheltered accommodation. And then this was where err Ramesh Devra worked-

Mm, I think he- he-

Yeah, Anchor House- yeah it was a, erm you know, so he became, at that time, during that thing you know, we were up running about making noises, he came, up on that home there. And he couldn’t to put in there, to find residents, so he came to me, that’s how we met. He came, he heard about this Ekta, he came to my office, my office, what happened was my office because the work was getting so much, I was placed in Custom House, you know and Custom House was far away, very racist area. So the housing people said to me we can offer you your office in our housing office in, on Ilford Road, so you can work actually, what was in line it was them who needed somebody speaks English, because they used to get so many client housing office who didn’t speak English, they had housing problem, and they had- didn’t have anybody to translate for them. So they wanted to give me an office so that I can help them. So it was, so I said fine I will be in the middle of the borough, I’ll go oh far away if I have to travel far away to go and visit somebody. So I said, I was given an office, in the grant officers room, you know, because big room grant office, and I had my desk there. But I was very proud saying oh yes, I’m sitting among those, but I didn’t realise until after that it was for their benefit. Whenever somebody came downstairs who didn’t speak English and had a problem with housing, they said Ramesh can you help us? There’s somebody downstairs, you speak five languages. Can you come and help us? Fine, I don’t mind helping. So I would go down to that person, you know try to help them. And then I said to them okay, I’m helping you, you help me as well. If I have somebody from my group who has housing problem you have to sort them out, I said fine. So that’s how we worked, you know. I was based there for nearly six, seven years, then we had err our own centre, our own office here in the borough. So that’s how I- so when, and that time Ramesh came to build that housing scheme here, he built a scheme and it was called Anchor housing, and he couldn’t find the people to put in because he came from another area, and he didn’t know the local who needed the housing, so he came to me and by that time because I was interviewing each and every person, what are your problem, and housing problem, people erm, kept on saying social services this is mine, so I had this people interested. So I said look there’s a house, so first time it was my- my members who were put in that err XXX (1:24:31). And so we worked very closely, he was, he’s very nice, very helpful man. So we worked closely and we got people there, you know. And then problems increased. So the house was full, the waiting list, and that was only for women and husband and wife, but then there were people who wanted to live with their carers, or their women on their- or the men on their own. And so we went to housing, err as I said I asked them, we need some place, they said there’s no place to build it. We want a purpose built housing prob- building. They said there’s none. But we didn’t give up, we said no, you have to do because there’s people been suffering. Now they need housing, they need flats for their own, they don’t want to live with their family. They want their own independent like housing. And then they, we were showing this place, you know, you must go and visit it, you know, erm, Upton Park station, there’s a market you’ll see a big nine-storey building, green. That’s called Hamaragh –it means my house. So that’s, that’s what it was- a derelict building, housing building you know. Broken, there were drunks there, was a murderer there as well, that building was lying derelict for years. Then when we put the pressure on housing they said oh, oh that’s the one building there, that’s the building – we said why, ‘cos we went to visit them you know, six or seven of us – no way we can build a housing here for the older people. It was, was a bar there, pub near down, there was a murder there, and there was all these people drunk, drugs sitting there. Such a dirty place you know. I said how can you tell us to turn this place for older people. No, of all the people how can we do that. So we started, we didn’t, then we thought no, this is the only thing we should do something, we should take it, not just.. say, reject it. So we started working with the housing office, they’ve worked with us, they’re very good. So we just said okay, we will give you the money, you manage it, and err you choose the people who want to go in there and we do all this administration thing, and we, the, the right advice. So we will do all this kind of-. So we worked in partnership and this place whole, they changed, they refurbished the whole building, and the nine stories. And I remember I put my ideas in there because most of my members were waiting to go in housing, you know? So I had so many members who wanted to go there, so they had ideas, and erm, different ideas came like erm, erm members don’t speak English, they can’t read and write, the nine story, hundred and- hundred and twenty, hundred and twenty nine flats. They’re flats for err single people, for couples, for people who wanted to live with their carers. And err, older people are- get confused, how will they find the places around there, they can’t even use the lift, you know. So we have to educate. So we had ideas and I, I came out with the idea, I still remember, I still remember that idea was, how would they know if it was fifth floor or forth floor you know? Because they can’t speak in the lift, they’re going up… So we said, my scheme, my idea was having like every, every floor has different colour. Every floor colour, and in the lift you put in like, err you have the colours you know? Yeah, so its blue, press the blue lift- touch the blue colour, and we told the ladies you know, in your own language in front of your door, you know the XXX (01:27.59) your name. You can, you know, so they could, only if you can’t read Punjabi, then you make a figure, you know? So that you know. And when you know, call this blue, this figure is mine so you put the key in the house and everybody liked that idea. It’s still same, some woman will say Ramesh, can you come for a cup of tea to my blue house, so they won’t know the floor, they won’t know the number, but they know it’s on the blue floor. So there’s so many living, for sixteen years I was the trustee of that building there, of that committee, then I gave up because I was busied myself. So that is an- our pride and for the first time ever we had then kind of houses in the whole of Europe. People came from Europe to visit the place to see how it works and how it happened, so we work in partnership with the, with the housing, so it was managed by XXX (01.28.49) trust, but it was erm, run er- belonged to the housing, they were collecting the rent and all this other things, you know, things like that you know. So that was very successful, that’s another pride for us, people from the first time ever, a project like that had happened you know? So we did a great things you know, achievement, but then it’s hard you know, killed most of the things.

Yeah. You said you were um, involved at SubCo for nine years was it?

Yeah, I was erm, yeah on the committee when it opened. For that we started, you know when we starting working around, you know, set it up, and then continued for nine years but then I, I had this, with my Ekta thing. Because I also worked with in Europe. Another thing they won’t get me to do something else and I never said no, that’s my weakness. So what happened they knew that I had set up this different kind of project, you know, how it worked. So I was approached, they said err, they still is there, it’s called erm, err European Network on Aging and Ethnicity, and I’m part of that. So they approached me, they said well, we would like you erm, to tell us, Europe, how to work with older people from ethnic minority, how to set up the project, how did you set up this in here? In Newham, you know? So the, the network is very good, all Europe means for all countries of Europe, they have reps on that board you know. So I was one of them, and we used to travel from here to Den Haag. Den Haag, you know? So that was the Hague. They had the centre there. We used to go once a year in December, cold. Once I went to Germany, saw XXX (01:30:30) and hardly in the snow you couldn’t see anything, because it was so cold, and I can’t forget, it was so cold and no food there. Lived for two weeks you know, doing all this work, writing projects. I said never again am I coming and dying of hunger here, you know. But then they shifted to Den Haag which was good. So we would go and I would be the main speaker, like this is how I set up, this is what needs to be done. Then first time when I went and I, they asked me to give a speech, you know, be the speaker, and I told them, and erm, err they said err, the, the director of the course, something else, they said we don’t have Asians err, you know, here, so there’s no need for us to set up special err, project for Asians who speak Asian languages you know? I said fine, it’s up to you. I said today you saying there’re no Asians here. I see so many young people around here, they’re going to get old, or they might get some people from parents from other parts of- to come and stay them, one day you will, you are the one who will see there’s a flood of people will got nothing for them. So then you will realise that why did you say that? It really happened. You know what, how it happened? Erm, this people from Dutch, you know Holland, they you know some turmoil happened and they were all gone to Suriname, you know? America- South Africa- err, South America. Then something happened there they came back to their own country, you know? Dutch. So when they came back they were old, you know, they go yeah the cold, and they didn’t have no language, and they still needed the services and there was nothing there. So it happened really, I didn’t even know at that time this is going to happen, so again, year after that, I went- we went, they called me specially, they paid everything for me you know, because my, my Ekta I said, we have no money now, it was… they paid everything, so we- I went there and I stayed for a week, we had every day different kind of err, err speeches. So and they said, the man, the same man was still there at the top said you were right when you said the people need services and there’ll be nothing. So this is what happens, they put me on the air, you know, the radio [laughs], so this happened, and now we need, we need you to tell us now, we want to set up the services. So then I said okay, so I sat there, we went to visit some more villages, collect the samples of people, you know, what kind of problem they had, you know, wrote a report for that. I give it to them, this is how I did it, you know, what I did, so this is what you need to know first. Because you lump all Asian under one umbrella. I don’t believe in this even word Asian, there’s nothing like Asian. What is Asian? Nothing, it’s just a continent, people are different, they’ve got language different, their dialect is different, their food, culture, everything is different. How can you say Asian and then say okay, Asian everybody same. Religions different. So there’s nothing, you know, this Asian word is wrong. As a word it’s wrong, you know. This everybody’s individual, they’re all different, so you have to provide services according to the need in a different way. And especially when you come to Suriname it is completely different from other Asian, people from other language- French, or another target whatever, they are, you call them Asian but they are not Asian you know. So they, they understood that bit you know. Then I, I wrote that this is what is needed you know, food-wise, religion-wise, and err, it’s up to you how you do it. Then a year, and they worked on that, they had very serious, they employed some workers who even came here, to visit my project, yeah there’s ladies from Amsterdam, she came to visit our project, she visited the Hamaragh – the one I’m talking about – Ramesh’ project and err, they saw hold things happening so they took back all that. And year after that, the third year when I went, invited again, and I went there in the evening we finished the conference, day time, about six o’clock there were two, three ladies who were part of that, they said Ramesh, after dinner can we take you for a ride, you know? We want to show you the lights you know, the chair, the canal, the water on the canal and all that, we were just having nice fun you know? I said no you’ve got so fed up of me coming here every year telling you awful, you know, you’re not doing this- so you so fed up you want to take me for ride and throw me in the water, is that what you’re going to do. They said oh no, no – they were so insistent; no we are coming after we finish dinner. You put your stuff in your room in the hotel room, and we, we meet downstairs and we would like to take you for a, just for a ride. The three ladies, and I said wow I don’t know what, you do whatever, you know what I mean, sure, said don’t worry, she’ll kill me, my son will get the money, we just joking. So they came, we sat at the car, we went, and we came here after a while she said we stop the car, near the water, you know, they’ve got these canals you know, water everywhere. So I said okay, I can come out now. I said what I’m doing here? Why you brought me? They said just close your eyes, so I close my eyes, now I said you’re going to push me, they said okay, open your eyes, look up – and I looked up, it was this building, and it had on it: Ekta Unit.

Wow.

Ekta Unit. I said what is this? This is the outcome of what you been telling for the last three years. Let’s go inside – so I went inside with them. We climbed, there were nine flats, and they said lets knock on the flats, so they knock on flats, this man came out, Suriname man, and they said, they must have organised, I don’t know, come inside, they said talk to him. I said well he’s Dutch- I don’t talk Dutch, they said no he can speak a little bit of Hindi, because he was you know from India, long time ago, but he could speak little bit of Hindi. So I spoke to him I said, you like this place? He said it’s very nice, very nice. He started showing me his cupboard, his kitchen, this is what I cook, all the food is- I’m so happy, he said err you know he came from America, south America, he said when they saw- when they told me, this nine flats [coughs] for these nine people who needed a place for their own, and they had no place, so we started example from what you have told us, this is nine unit- err if it works we can extend but as now it’s nine, and because of all that work you done, we name the unit Ekta Unit. I was so- I felt so proud, started crying actually, you know I was so happy, so then they put on the radio, you know people asking questions on the radio, you know, in English and in some Hindi, Punjabi. So that’s nice, and then I went once again for that, that was in Amsterdam, err in err Sonnenberg? Same thing, they are doing it there. We were writing- then we started writing the policies for the whole of Europe. Ten years but now they’re in their tenth year so I don’t know what's going, because they’re no funding either. Police of how to, for a while our services for people from Asian lang- Asian community, and the policies were ten years, you know- the elder abuse. Everything was in part of it. And there were so many centres in err, in Germany, again they were saying oh there’s no Asian people living here, the older people here in err, in Germany. We visited the villages, and we saw them, but because they don’t know. They have no sort of, when they started recording the numbers, you know, so they said now we’ll record and we’ll record what the needs are. So we work on the needs. So this is the tenth year, I don’t know what's going to happen again you know. Yeah… [Laughs]

Wow. So exciting that you’ve managed to sort of help out across Europe as well.

Yeah, yes… So yeah so I worked in Scotland as well. Because of that network you know, we are good friends all over you know, in Europe as well and here. So yeah we, we worked together so good friends in Scotland, part of this European network, so if they need something they ask me when it comes to Asian community, if there’s anything I can do you know. Err, and to go there and, those problems, because the people, err older people are aging. So their needs are complex now, you know. It’s not just that they need things more than just, more help. Information, and then they need to go to government, they have no funding so what can you do ? It’s a catch 22, you know?

Erm, I don’t think I have any more questions so… do you have anything else you’d like to add before-?

I don’t know, there’s so much you know, I don’t know where to… [laughs]. There’s so much you know, its err… yeah, no, I would like to see more services for older people, you know, that’s a thing because they’re, there’s so much. You go to hospital, you see so, so sad, cuts in health, cuts in this cut, that, everywhere this is cuts. And these are the people who really worked hard in their lives, you know? I know my, my father, my, my dad- how hard he worked in life, and when it comes to them asking for some little bit of help, they says no, no, nothing here, nothing there, you know? Err, that is the sad part… Er but err, that’s how it is, you know. What can you do? Mm… but Newham was very, very good for older people when, during that time you know? Everybody worked together, money you know? It was there for certain, different services, you had to work together, and then there’s a problem, we in that, that you know, that play of mine I was telling you, we used to get together, we had made this promise that err, we would all help. I told you before how we all helped toget- we all worked together, and we raised our concern with one voice, and get it done, rather than you know, from this providers. We speak together, we want this to be done, whether is for you, or for you, but it’s for the same community. And then we all work together and promise that we will not try to interfere other person’s work. Example, we send, and I’m still with that, that we will provide the befriending and support that members come to us for, for three hours, they come there, we do all this drama in my project we do everything you know? We like er, erm, my project is got so many different- I didn’t tell you about that. Ekta project does different things for funding and support. Not just come and have a cup of tea and go. When they come there, we try find out the problem, try to solve the problem, have the people social come, but at the same time, to reduce isolation. ‘Cos when I first got this people together, oh my god, it’s like a sea of people, older people, they can’t be just faces there. Yeah, they’re human beings. They’re older, but it doesn’t mean that they’re good for nothing. My dad was living, my dad was full of talents and skills, you know? So I starting to bring each and everybody, and I said they’re full of talent and skills. So I applied for funding and I got the funding, and then employed one man, one young man, and err we set up this, we set this problem, Hamaricani(?), which means ‘my story’, [coughs] and we end let Hamaricani, I tried to find with the help of that man, people’s talents. And with that people’s talents we found err, when we set up the project, Hamaricani, what we found that in that group from man, we had, we were, we had poets, we had singers, we had err musicians playing, who had done so much work, they were from all over the world, India, Pakistan, Africa – they were there. And from women there were dancers, storytellers, traditional dancers, folk dancers, you know all these things were there, but because they didn’t get opportunities they came here with their families, they leave their family and the family had no time to you know, they were just this: go to work, and this older people had no chance to bring up their talents and just… got depressed you know? So I said no this is not going to happen now, I’m going to bring out all your talents and skills you know, share with each other. And this project was Hamaricani, and its progress flourished so much, so then we created so many plays out of that, you know? We had plays to bring up all these you know, hidden talents. Share it with others, poets will write poems, and then we- they will say, and there was a man erm, there was a man who was so shy, you know from Africa, he would not even speak somebody, it was- not shy but he was depressed. He was going out in Africa, doing things you know, and there he was sitting at home just pray, at home, so do nothing. And he was looked after by his daughter who’d go and get some fruits, and this and that, and he would come and sit. And he say this is my life, I’m good for nothing, and he was feeling depressed. And I sat down to him, I said err what had you done, he told me I used to write. He brought so many poems from home and showed me. And he said I’ve not shown them to anybody, they’ve been lying in my trunk for years. You asked me, and my god I said, we’ve got such a publishers, and small book you know. And he said no, no, no I’m going to leave it alone. So he, I make him stand on the stage and read the poem, and ask him to write a poem. He wrote so many different poems on my project for the work and all that, and it was a very good poet. So then same thing with the women. Same with other people, you know, people, then we found there was a man who, who was in the Second World War. And he said he used to fill his guns, and shoot people [laughs] nobody knew that. And we got him a medal because nobody knew, it was important that this was a person who fought in the world war and this is what he did. He saved so many lives, so then he got a medal. So yeah this is how we found. And this project become so famous, and we wrote a book everybody, err and there was another one err, Winter Warmers we called it: stories, like how did you first, how did you finish, how did you experience a first winter in this country when you came here- they all came from tropical, hot countries- how did you feel you know? Because I was shocked myself, things so all of a sudden, you know. So there was some funny stories you know. I fought someone put cheese in my garden. One lady said I started walking, walking, walking I was running in my garden round, round and round like so much. When I came here my feet, you know, she was like, I opened the tap, hot water tap and burned all the thing, err feet. She told us she burned the feet with hot water because she was doing that and she was like I woke my husband and said come, see what is outside, all these kind of funny stories, you know. So we got the book published as well. So we done so many strange kinds of projects, you know? It was really nice. But this XXX (01:45:47) project on erm, Hamaricani was very so- we still do play, people in white might volunteer to go on weddings, because they revive all the traditions you know. In India you know, how people sing song during weddings, girls wedding, boys wedding, they dress like that you know, do songs, and the women are so good at dancing, we take them er with volunteers, old women, ‘cos they feel that they’ve got something you know? They feel they are something you know? Rather than useless.

Yeah.

We want to give them that you know, push.

Sense of pride.

Sense of pride, yeah, something we value, we want to learn from you. And err, one or two women we ask them to teach this err traditional dances to young girls you know, so they do that. Yeah. So yeah that goes on in my project, and we make them sing you know, every group you know. Erm, dance in the group, when we, the women who even they were in Zimmer frames they still want to dance [laughs]. Yeah you can come and see them, it’s very nice, yes.

Does sound nice.

Yeah.

Excellent, erm, I think we’ll finish there.

Yeah, okay, if you want to ask me anything you’re welcome to.

Erm-

Is there anything which err, I think I’ve done but I don’t expect to- because there’s so much different things.

So many, yeah.

Thirty two years, gone through thick and thin you know?

I was just wondering if you have maybe, any memories specifically of erm, being on the board at SubCo and what sort of work you did there?

Oh yeah, SubCo board it was very good, you know we had all erm, a well professional people there, because in those days all these people we had all good jobs you know? Very high profile jobs, different. And all those people there they brought their own skills. Like I was, I had the skill of working with people one to one, plus my own skills you know from life you know, what we say, caring skill. How hard it is to care twenty four hours, single handed, for parents, you know? And not asking for help, which is no good. I will advise people don’t do that now. I did it and after a bit was in hospital for nearly four or five months, you know, so much you know? You can’t do all that. I had to bring up to my two sons as well at the same time. But I didn’t take any help which was my sense of pride, it’s not good. So it was, I, everybody you know there were many other people you know, from housing, social services, different, we had even people from social services used to come and present social services on that board, so everybody bring their own skills and together we set up this, and SubCo just flourished, you know? And it’s so much, and now it’s become a bit different but those days it was like a, erm luncheon club, they had to… I was telling you that I went on the other side, when we, we were on that board we decided that we would not tread on other people’s toes. Like I’m doing day-care, you know, and somebody is doing lunching club. So they will not do what I’m doing, I will not do what they’re doing. Everybody’s doing that, we will support each other. And it happened so many years, but then the time came when social services, cut the funding, so the XXX (01:49:03) pot of money, anybody wants something from that pot of money they can apply. Whether it’s for day-care or whether it’s for lunching club, and that money is everything, so everybody sort of rushing to that pot. And it all got mixed up. So everybody can do whatever they want, that money. That all that is lost, you know? So, yeah, so funding money makes everything- but we still haven’t done that. We have stuck to our policy and principle, we do the same… you know? People come to us for four hours, we give them their- we started giving them food because most of them has- we used to give them only snacks, you know tea and biscuits you know. But now because the traffic is bad we are sometimes on the road for two or three hours you know, getting there, and they’ve got most of them got diabetes, so my volunteers cook some food there, snacks, and we give them food. But no we, we don’t do that, we said no, we stick to what, that everybody do what they feel like doing you know? The number of older people are increasing, getting frail, so many have problems.

Do you think the needs of the community and the older people has changed from today to when you started?

Oh definitely, there’s no doubt about that, yeah. Firs thing as I said, they’re getting older, aging. You know, they’re living longer, and with that come the health problems. And the services are decreasing, changing as well. Services are completely changing now, you know? Erm, we used to have people coming to our groups, filling out like attendance forms, this and, they help them there’s no one. There’s no one there. They can’t have- they can’t do that, they don’t have anybody at home. We have no funding to employ a- I had a staff member who used to do all that but funding gone he left the job, and we’ll had to organise Age Concern, you know, now they don’t do it anymore. So this lack of services there, ‘cos they… they don’t have workers there so what can they do? So all these things, there’s a lot of problems. Things have changed so much, you know? Err, they’re trying to pay attention- everyone is paying attention towards young people, the thing, young population is getting bigger there, yeah, which is fine, I had a big argument with my mayor, you know Robin Wales, he’s not my friend [laughs] not good… he tried to flatter me but he’s not good friend because he doesn’t do anything for older people, doesn’t like older people. You know he doesn’t- once I was, one day we were in the festival, some festival going on- when there was something decoration like dancing or something, he always watched my volunteers, they’re very good dancers, they perform you know, to dance on the stage. So he invited them, they said okay, I’ll send you some transport to bring your volunteers, so we went there and they were dancing, and he I don’t know from where he saw them, he came and joined them and started dancing with my volunteers. And I was watching I went to him and said, Robin, you like dancing, but when it comes to money you cut their money you know, and older people are sitting at home. These are the volunteers who could walk here. Those who really need the service they’re sitting at home because they couldn’t come, and you are taking the money away you know. I said older people are the ones who need help, you know? So he just shook out his hair like that, and said look Ramesh I’ve got my, my hair is going grey. I’m getting older myself. I said I’m sorry to hear that, but when you get older, real old you know, this isn’t- when you get old like those people, there’ll be, if this is what goes on like the way, it’ll be nothing for you in this borough. You don’t have deal- you’ll have to find another planet to go to. And you know what planet is that, you know? [Laughs] you’ll have to think of that, you know. Ohhh, he said ohh you’re going too far. I said yeah I’m going too far because I was saying remember, you don’t know how much they’re suffering. They’re sitting at home, some don’t even, some don’t- even driving is a problem these days, to get transport for them. We have to struggle my, my volunteer drivers- staff has to struggle to book a transport to come to our centre, which is only run twice a month because we can’t afford more than that, what can we do? So I said it’s so difficult. So that’s a lesson, but in the old days we had our own bus, you know we had our bus, and err even community transport was there, driver was there. We used to have groups running four days a week. Now only twice a month. So things have changed for the worse.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I don’t know what’s going to happen in the future, still don’tk now. And the prob- the health problem, as you know dementia, mental health problems… you know, people getting disabled and then there’s nothing, you know, strokes. It’s all age- aging… Mm…

Yeah… I guess yeah if there’s not the money they can’t really do anything can you?

Yeah. He’s changing now isn’t it? I saw that he’s leaving.

Yeah…

Mm…

Well thank you for giving me so much of your time-

-It’s okay, it’s okay.

It’s been very interesting.

-So what you going to do with that? Are you going to edit it?

Erm-

THE END

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_05

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_05

Interviewer: Francis Ball

Interviewee:

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Babu Bhattacherjee

Project: Growing Old Gracefully

Date of interview: 13/04/2018

Language: English

Venue:

Name of interviewer: Francis Ball

Length of interview:

Transcribed by: Megan Christo

Archive Ref: 2018_esch_GrOG_05

OK it’s the 13^th of April and I’m interviewing Babu at Spotlight as part of the Subco project. Could you tell me your date of birth please?

18^th of April 1965.

And where were you born?

Er, London.

What part of London?

OK I was born in Stratford. Well Stratford/Forest Gate. The Forest Gate XXXX (0:00:22.3).

And what did your parents do?

So my mum worked, um, kind of various things in the rag trade, er, she worked in the Matchbox factory which was kind of in Hackney, um, and kind of towards the end actually she got, um, a post which was as a trainee social worker, so towards the end she became a social worker. And my dad worked for the Post Office in MBT.

OK. Did they move to England from-?

Yeah so my family came over, so my dad came over, er, yeah probably, um, sort of mid 60s, early 60s and then, er, I was born here and then kind of spent a bit of time here and a bit of time in India but then we settled here permanently, um maybe kind of ’69 that sort of thing.

So from quite a young age then you were-

Yeah I was born here, um, and kind of spent a bit of time flitting around but yeah kind of mainly in Forest Gate and mainly in London.

What was Forest Gate like in the 70s growing up?

Um, it was kind of, it was fine. I mean it was quite a racist time so there was quite a lot of, um, overt racism it was kind of- the national front were very, um, prominent and, er, so yeah it was tough, um, and it was also kind of the time of, um, sort of strikes. There was, there were power cuts there were all sorts of things going on so it was a, it was a good time but it was, yeah, it was quite hard.

Yeah, um, you mentioned strikes I mean with your mum working in a match factory was she quite connected to kind of industrial…

Oh yeah so Matchbox made cars so, um, so the Matchbox they were the size of matchboxes.

Oh!

They were actually cars they were the toy cars, um, it was actually Lesney was I think, they were the factory. But um, but yeah I mean um yeah I mean the sorts of places my mum worked….so, so yeah Matchbox was unionised and pretty good for that sort of thing. I don’t think she went on strike much and I don’t think my dad did much at the Post Office and BT but it was always around, you know, kind of those sorts of things.

Yeah do you remember the stuff about the Newham 7 or were you a bit young at that age?

Um yeah so, yeah I was kind of involved in the Newham 7, Newham 8 um so, yeah I was around at that time.

What year was that, sorry?

Oh blimey was, that’s tough. Um, it would have been the, it would have been like late 80s, 90s all that stuff, yeah.

Could you say maybe a bit more about your involvement?

Oh um, so I’d been involved in Newham Monitoring Project so I was getting, and some of the young people I kind of new anyway so um, so the Kahns I knew and there kind of various other people so…So through the links- yeah we knew what was going on we knew about the struggle, um, and you know, got involved in a few demonstrations and a few kind of campaigns, that sort of thing.

So was Newham Monitoring Project like your job?

No I was a volunteer there so I used to do the emergency service so they used to have an emergency helpline. So if you were arrested and you needed support, um, we would connect people up to solicitors and kind of make sure that they were treated er, kind of properly by the police and that they, um had access to the right support.

(4m20)

And how did you get into that?

Um, I think just through er, kind of being local, kind of knowing the organisation, wanting to support the organisation so yeah, just sort of word of mouth I guess.

Were the monitoring project quite visible then at that time?

Yeah they had an office on XXXX (0:04:40.5) road, um, they er, yeah they were doing a lot of campaigns um, around policing and specific incidents so there were particular campaigns, obviously kind of later on in was Steven Lawrence but um there were lots of campaigns going on at the time about people who had been um…killed, kind of being arrested um sort of fights for justice all that sort of stuff.

And what did you do as a job then if that was sort of voluntary?

Oh at the time? So um I er…so OK at that time I worked for Newham social services when I was back in Newham but before then I’d obviously grown up um around Newham but I went to university in Manchester so I spent about nine years in Manchester but still kept in touch with what was happening in East London but really it was kind of when I came back that I got more involved in that sort of thing.

What was Manchester like in comparison to London?

It was a bit harder than London, so you get the kind of double thing in Manchester where um it like, being a southerner it’s kind of um you have to er make your peace with that and other people have to make peace with you um it’s um in terms of er…opportunity it was kind of like, there was less happening in Manchester at the time um compare to London, there was loess diversity I think in a lot of ways um so yeah it was, but it was a great place I mean I lived in a place called Rusholme which was like the Asian bit of er Manchester and er it was also a student bit so that was kind of good.

What years did you-?

Um so Manchester, I went there in ’83, I came back to London in ’91.

So it must have had quite an exciting, vibrant cultural scene at that time.

Um, yeah it was great in Manchester actually so XXXX (0:06:40.8) was going then so that was kind of obviously a big and there was that whole kind of music scene happening in Manchester. I mean culturally it was good, there were new cultural venues, um, obviously a huge student population so that was kind of great as well. But yeah it was in need of regeneration really, there were lots of things that kind of needed to happen for the area but yeah it was a good time.

Did you study something related to social work?

No I’ve got a degree in Physics.

Oh right [laughs] so how did you find yourself going into that line of work?

Um, so when I was doing my degree, I think, I was a volunteer for Manchester Mind and I did kind of counselling for people, sort of telephone counselling, for people who were in distress kind of issues so I did that for a while and I guess I had a chance to kind of pursue my academic interests but also my kind of social interests. And as I went on I was kind of just went down a path where I pursued that side of things more than the kind of becoming the scientist.

Yeah. So what did you do sort of after getting your degree?

So I worked in Manchester. So I worked for the local authority for a while, worked for a volunteer bureau, worked for Salford CVS so just kind of worked in the voluntary sector and the local authority.

And when you moved back to London did you notice any changes or was it sort of much the same?

Um, yeah I mean I think my idea of deprivation was, the deprivation I saw, I worked in Salford, I thought the deprivation I saw in Salford was significantly greater than the deprivation in East London and, although I used to have these arguments with I came back to East London, people were saying East London was the worst- personally I didn’t think it really compared to the kind of work that was going on in Salford and the kind of issues that there were in places like that. And Greater Manchester actually, so not just Salford: Salford, Tameside, Oldham. You know it’s a whole set of places where I think that the level of need kind of seemed to me to be kind of worse in some ways than what was happening in London and London was, at the time I think, as the capital and with the other investment that was going on it kind of had more opportunity than some of the other places. So yeah, so I suppose it made me think, in some ways, that the centre of the world wasn’t East London you know, there’s other stuff going on.

Was the work quite challenging at times if you were sort of in these difficult-?

Oh in Manchester or around Manchester? Oh no, yeah, it was tough work, yeah. I mean it was great actually so one thing that I was able to do as a young person is I would be going round estates. I would be going round estates where you’d have to knock on doors, you had to talk to people, you had to build relationships, and it wasn’t the kind of supportive structure to kind of do that in a way that was, you know, really carefully kind of coordinated. It was much more about building relationships and kind of developing a whole set of skills actually so yeah, it was good, really good for me to be able to do that work.

Yeah. And when you came back to London did you sort of pursue similar-?

Yeah so I got a job in Newham social services, um, and so I came over basically to do that job.

Were the council quite good at sort of tackling issues around diversity sort of XXXX (0:10:39.1) behind it?

Um, yeah my feeling was that, at the time anyway, it was a labour council but it was quite a right-wing labour council. So a lot of the views of counsellors were probably not as progressive as I would have liked but they had some really strong left-wing principles and they were- but I mean in a lot of ways Newham probably was a bit of a, it did feel a bit like it was out of London. It didn’t feel like London so much in those days and so I think the council, because it had been labour for so many years, I think maybe there was sense of continuity and history but maybe in terms of some of the new issues that were emerging that was a challenge that I think maybe took a bit longer because the borough wasn’t necessarily kind of in that mode to tackle that stuff.

Sort of stuck in a rut in a way.

I wouldn’t go that far, I kind of enjoyed my time in Newham. I enjoyed the, I mean I still live in Newham so it’s my borough it’s where I grew up. But I think at the time, yeah, the council did feel a bit different to the community that was around here. S-o yeah, politically in terms of the representation members and the kind of issues that were coming up. But having said that I thought the borough was really good in terms of its diversity so even though it had a large kind of BME population, the different elements of that population, in terms of the different communities that were represented, worked really well together and there was a real sense of kind of collective endeavour. And I think that that is kind of, wasn’t the case in other boroughs, you know. So in other boroughs it felt much more polarised around kind of how different ethnic groups were working together, whereas in Newham I always felt there was a really strong sense of connection and a really strong sense of working together.

Was that coming from organisational structures or sort of grassroots, political community work?

Yeah so there was something called the black and ethnic minority community care forum which was around a little while at the time, there was Major Women’s project, there was Newham Monitory project, so there was a good set of organisations actually. There was Race Equality Council, so there was a whole set of organisations that were working together at the time and I think it is down that infrastructure and it is down to the quality of hose organisations and what they’re able to do. You know everyone has periods of doing well and kind of not maybe doing so well for some of the time but yeah they were really good organisations, yeah.

Do you think, I mean, when the organisations do well and they don’t do well is there a sort of particular set of factors that will influence that or is it particular to each organisation and who’s sort of on the team and that sort of thing?

Um, yeah personally I’d say some of the infrastructure organisations were really good so I think the black and ethnic minority community forums are a really good infrastructure organisation, I think Eurasian Women’s project was a really good infrastructure organisation in terms of its ability to form partnerships so I think that all of those groups really had a good sense of whatever their individual abilities were and there were some really exceptional people around but I think it was their ability to connect up and form partnerships and do things together.

And was there sort of central support for the work they were doing?

Yeah so a lot of those agencies got a load of authority funding- I mean I worked in the grants bit of the council so were funding a whole range of organisations to do that work yeah so actually grant funding from the local authority was a real positive yeah they were a good grant funder at the time.

How did grant funding work I mean do you give money to an organisation or would there be sort of for a certain project that they were doing?

Um yeah there would also be an agreement, there would also be a grant agreement or a service agreement so there would always be kind of things that they were meant to do but yeah often it would be about supporting those organisations to deliver their core work so there was a good sense of, you know, allowing organisations to grow and supporting their infrastructure and then also supporting specific bits of work.

Are there any sort of specific projects you can remember from that period that you helped fund?

Oh at the time? Yeah so obviously kind of Newham Women’s project, Newham XXXX (0:15:35.6) for Youth who are still going. We funded some care organisations that were dotted around the borough so there was X Project which was another Asian elders project so yeah it was a good combination of things.

Obviously some of those organisations aren’t still going, do you know if there’s a particular reason for that?

I mean I think sometimes, it’s difficult to say. So a lot of the organisation that we funded- I mean sometimes organisations have a finite life time anyway. They get momentum, they get stuff done over time they’ve kind of achieved a lot and it kind of, and organisations can change as individuals leave or as funding priorities change. So I guess ether’s a natural wastage that happens. But yeah I would say that the infrastructure of support from those agencies has really become critical and obviously the funding environment is really important as well so if money is being squeezed from the local authority all you get is the local authority changes priorities then they’re a big sort of help. And I know that, you know, agencies like Aston Mansfield and the XXXX (0:16:55.4) program- the kind of bigger agencies that are around in the borough, generally have done that because they’ve got an asset base or they’ve got a legacy kind of of funding and so they’re less buffeted by changes in the outside environment. An, you know, you can’t have every organisation working in that way but I think the organisations have got that kind of, you know, where they’ve got that kind of ability to generate income from a number of different sources it can definitely help.

Definitely. So when did your involvement with SubCo first start?

So I think it was one of the earlier projects that I did when I came to Newham Social Services. So being like mid-1991, so I think- I don’t think I was, I think I’d just- the idea had been emerging for a while and social services were giving the responsibility of brining it together and I was the officer who was leading on it so I think there had been work before I came but the organisation hadn’t been established at that point. So I was basically working with a series of partners to help develop the service. And the organisation.

What was your role in developing the service?

So I was the grants officer so I was going to fund it and so I was helping to develop the constitution, the job descriptions, the kind of the premises. So it was like basically developing a new organisation that didn’t exist at that point and needed all that stuff. So we were basically working through the infrastructure of the organisation in terms of its legal kind of standing as well as the physical base and work that needed to be done and recruiting staff and all the rest of it.

What were the needs that they were responding to at the time?

So we were looking at provision. I think the original kind of priority was over fifties so elders from the subcontinent. So including Chinese elders, obviously a whole mix of the kind of Indian subcontinents- so Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, India. But then also into South-East Asia and kind of older people there. So the issue was I think that elders from those communities were displaying kind of issues that often occurred in the white community much later on in life. So sorts of issues around physical health and wellbeing, mental health and wellbeing, were coming up in the fifty year olds plus, where I think for other communities they were probably coming up 10,15 years later. So it was really looking at provisions to help address those needs.

Yeah I mean obviously lots of the work SubCo does now is focused on the Indian subcontinent rather than sort of China, Japan etc.

Yeah.

Was there like a time when they sort of shifted away from working with far-eastern communities.

Yeah not when I was there. So I was there for about five years and I think in that time we had sessions for Chinese elders and that was quite an important part of what we did. I remember being in loads of discussions with Newham Chinese Association kind of working with them. So I think there was always a sense or organisations wanting their own space but SubCo was an important kind of resource for sharing and I don’t really know when that kind of transition happened but that kind of partnership must have lasted for well over five years and probably more like ten it was a decent length of partnership and I’m not sure what the transition was that led to those services changing.

I mean obviously you’re working from ’91 ‘til what about’96 with SubCo?

Yeah in my role as a kind of council employee but then I joined the committee- it must have been after- I mean I think I was going to committee anyway because I was kind of a local authority rep. but I think I joined the committee after that and was involved as the treasurer and a committee member for a while so yeah I sort of stayed involved for another, I think maybe 3,4 years after I left the council. So maybe I kind of continued, it’s hard to say at this point but probably ‘til about 2000 something like that.

Yeah can you tell me a bit about when the centre opened with SubCo in charge? It must have been quite a proud moment.

Yeah I think so. I don’t know that I really recall it at all. I mean my memory’s not the best so and so yeah definitely. I mean I remember it being a really big moment and thing like I can remember getting these chairs, these really expensive kind of chairs that were really good for posture and really good for older people but they cost, I don’t know, like 250 quid a go and I can’t remember they were called- ‘parkanol’ or something, parkanol chairs. And so, you know, there was a real kind of emphasis on getting quite a lot of the XXXX (0:22:54.3) around food so there would be lunch clubs and we would have food for different communities and particularly for the older community kind of food was a big thing and we wanted to get that right. Then obviously the mixture of services to support those older people we were all working very closely with the X project at the time and, oh what were they called, I think it was XXXX (0:23:18.7) which was like a project in kind of, I think they were based in Manor Park at the time, but then also in Green Street so- I think they were called East Woods Trust I think at the time. So yeah we were working with them and XXXX (0:23:33.4) kind of used to work for East Woods trust and then came over as I think one of the first SubCo workers. So we had those links in common around care and support and providing those kinds of packages of support for those older people so yeah the services were really high quality, the food was great and the premises were yeah, amazing. So yeah it was very good to have that resource and I think we were opposite the One Love centre, which was across the road, and so there was a nice kind of connection between services for the African-Caribbean community and African community and us as well so yeah there was good sense of working together. And there was another organisation actually, I think they’re called the- what were they called? They were kind of based in Plaistow and they were like Newham African-Caribbean Association. So we had good links with them too. So yeah it was a good combination of groups so good partnerships, great premises, great food and then the package support services for elders as well. So yeah good stuff and nice chairs!

Nice chairs, yeah! Obviously there was need in the community for these sorts of services. Was there like a quick community uptake or did it take more time to sort of get people on board with that?

Yeah no I remember it being really well used, yeah good kind of services. I mean particularly because the offer was really kind of catering for what we knew would attract older people so the kind of offer around food I think made sure that we got good attendance and then I think we were building up from there around the additional support we offered.

When did you first come into contact with the others member of Subco, the board?

So yeah from the off. SO because we were helping to set up that board ‘cos we were, in my role as a kind of council grants officer, so yeah I had really close working with the chair and the staff from the beginning.

Yeah, did you get on with everyone, was it a nice group to work with?

Yeah they were great so we had really good people so Ramesh was the chair and he was a really dynamic chair. We had really strong committee members so yeah it was a good bunch of people to work with- very committed, very hard-working, very supportive, and really knew their stuff actually. So they’d all come from a background of working with elders so they were very professional and very knowledgeable.

What was the transition like between you working from the council to being actually on the board?

It was fine actually I mean I think that was a role that the council played anyway so really supportive role it wasn’t oppositional. I mean there would be times when we disagreed but I think it was a really collaborative partnership so actually kind of going to the committee didn’t really feel any different. I don’t think there was suddenly a kind of sigh of relief, you know, ‘now I can tell you what I really think’. It wasn’t anything like that I think we were all working in that way from the off.

What sorts of things did you disagree about if there was that close collaboration?

Oh on the council side. So when I was kind of representing the council- I mean I think our view was that it was a new organisation, it needed an opportunity to grow and develop. But there would be kind of we would be looking at targets, we would be looking at how well their targets were achieved, and they were achieving the targets so it wasn’t a sense that this was an organisation that was struggling. So from that point of view I think I was seeing a service that was delivering what it was meant to deliver but I think we were genuinely kind of looking at an organisation that was growing up really so new staff, new priorities, new services and that whole thing needed time to bed down so were very happy to give it that time but also they were meeting the targets that we were setting. So we felt that it was, yeah, I don’t think there was that much kind of room for- I mean there would have been things where we were saying about current negotiations between groups. I know that we had lots of discussions with the Chinese elders group to make sure that it was a service that was accessible to the Chinese elders in that community. We were making sure that it was reaching as wide a demographic as possible and that the quality of services delivered were at the right level.

How did the services that SubCo were delivering change over the period of your involvement?

So I think as time went on the focus on those in greater need started to evolve really so I think in the beginning it was quite an open service where elders who were quite able were able to access services as were those who might be more frail physically or might have kind of other issues about their health. And I think it moved more towards those in greater need- as kind of you would expect I guess. I would expect that but I think in the beginning that would have been a much broader demographic in terms of physical need and kind of mental health need and I think became more and more specialised as time went on.

Were there any changes in funding over the same period?

So the council was funding SubCo pretty well so the core funding was kind of there and that was really helpful kind of over a period of time it pretty good. I mean, you know, from a council point of view. But I think the level of investment from the council was good and I think that. I mean as time changed, you know, we’d be, I’d be helping with fundraising we did from bids so yeah I think fundraising became more and more of an issue but in the beginning there was good core funding to help that transition.

And then the funding became more based around-

It would go towards transport funding, we’d be going for, you know, kind of like looking at grants and foundations and that sort of thing. I mean that’s where I recall us kind of going for getting bids in to the City Bridge Trust and, you know, the lottery and those sorts of funders so that was starting to happen over the time that I was there.

Was that to continue core work for certain extra-?

Yeah I think it was kind of core and extras so yeah it was building up service and yeah making sure we could do the sorts of things that we wanted to do.

And when did you leave SubCo did you say around 2000?

Yeah I can’t remember but it would have been, it could have been yeah, probably late 90s or maybe 2000 yeah. I sort of stayed on as a committee member for a period of time but because I wasn’t working in the borough anymore and kind of just like the pressures sort of took over and I couldn’t really do as much. But I think it was probably three or four years kind of after I left in 19- I left the council in ’95 and I guess it would have been a few years after that.

What did you do after you left the council?

So I went to work for the City Bridge Trust. So it was called the bridge House, it was Bridge House something- I can’t remember what it was called now. But, anyway whatever it was called, it’s called the City Bridge Foundation now so I went to work there as a grants Officer so yeah that’s what I did after Newham for a couple of years.

Cool. Do you have any sort of standout memories of any of the work that SubCo did? Any particularly good stories that you might have?

Oh I don’t know actually. I mean I think from my point of view yeah it is was just a really good collaboration so I think the first two workers who were Angela XXXX (0:32:18.0) they really did a lot of work to get us into the places we needed to be I mean Andrew was great, really kind of charismatic kind of individual and really drove the organisation on, Ramesh was a great chair- so I think it’s the kind of sense of solidarity, working together, kind of achieving a lot, getting new projects off the ground but no I don’t think I have. Not that spring to mind, I don’t think I have any funny stories or anything that kind of would be noteworthy, just that sense of it being a great project and really having a strong foundation from the beginning.

How many staff did SubCo take on?

So I think we had two so two kind of project workers and I think we must have had an administrator as well so I think the core team was probably about three. But I must admit I haven’t got the best memory so probably- I mean I sat on the interview panels for at least two of those posts so I think I can remember recruiting XXXX (0:33:25.1) and I can remember recruiting XXXX (0:33:27.2) so I think those are the, at least in the early days those were the two, and then obviously the committee and other officers. So XXXX (0:33:35.5) was involved so she worked for the council as well at the time and she was involved in the council side from the, I think she was in the race equality team, so she was involved then as well. And obviously later became the kind of chief executive of SubCo so yeah.

Did she become chief exec when you were still-

Yes, so I think while I was there, perhaps it was when I was on the board actually rather than when I was with the council. But yeah when I was there she did kind of take on that role, yeah.

Is that sort of what Ramesh was doing previously?

So Ramesh was the chair, so you’ve got Ramesh XXXX (0:34:17.2) who worked for XXXX (0:34:18.7) who was the chief executive of X project but the other XXXX (34:25.0) was the chair and so Ramesh was obviously leading it from the board’s perspective but at the time XXXX (0:34:33.6) must have been doing those roles kind of in terms of that officer level leadership.

Do you have any involvement still in SubCo?

No so just had a conversation with Taskin, you know I still live locally so I still sort of kind of you know catch up a little bit with Taskin and Celine and her husband you know I’ll keep in touch peripherally but not really, no, not in the same way.

Ok I guess my final question is how do you think that the Asian community in Newham has changed up to the present day? Where do you see that kind of community work going from now?

Right, I think the culture, so in terms of people’s faith, in terms of people’s kind of geographic background and sense of identity around that is probably better catered for now. So I think in the past, there less emphasis on that so I think that’s a really important component now. I think that there are, certainly in terms of some of the communities we work with, we do some work with the Chinese community now and I do think there are hidden groups who aren’t networked in the same way that some communities are. So there are definitely isolated people that we need to do work to identify. So in some ways they’re not a burden to anyone so they’re not known to services, they’re not being picked up. But I do think their level of need is high so being able to identify those groups. And there are good people in the community who are working on those issues so it’s not that no one’s working on it, but I think we do need to be able to reach out to people who effectively slipping through there at the moment. I think services are being focused on those in greatest need so I do think that some of the community cohesion work is still really important, particularly for that group of people. So when you’re young and fit and strong you’re more resilient, you can cope with things a lot better. I think when you’re frailer and older it’s really important to have that sense of community to know where to go, also to be well networked within your local area and so I think that kind of work is as important as ever and we really need to find the balance between clinical care and specialist services and they’re the sorts of things that deal with loneliness and isolation, things that deal with a sense of connectivity- making people feel happy where they live because those things are going to be as important to people’s heath as any kind of professional or clinical support we can offer.

So sort of increasing people’s social wellbeing?

Yeah so I would say that where you live, your community around, intergenerational work, that’s where care needs to go. That sense of the community picking up some of those issues and so the more we do that the better it is. I don’t think it’s a burden I think people enjoy helping more vulnerable members of their community and we can’t have overload people, we shouldn’t make that service so difficult that nobody can do it, but I think if we can do it at a level that people can cope with there is so much capacity out there that we need to tap into and I actually think it’s beneficial to people that provide that support. I think that they gain hugely from it and obviously the people that would then become connected in that way are healthier and happier and I think that’s kind of the thing we all want to hope.

You mentioned intergenerational work, I think that’s something that SubCo do quite a lot of now?

Not so much in the beginning because it was all about getting the service going and really focusing on that kind of core area but it was definitely something that because of the partners we had, because of the range of services that we were all connected to it was definitely where were going to go but I think there was a sense of getting the core service right and then growing it. And we obviously had a community to reach out to anyway so we had this broader community with all these different kind of geographic communities and social communities that we had to bring together so I think that was the initial emphasis and the initial strength but definitely back then there was a sense of interconnectivity around the staff and the board and I think that then perpetrates through to the service more.

I think finally could you say anything more generally about how Newham as a borough has changed and sort of development and how that’s affected communities?

Yeah so I mean from my perspective the switch from funding voluntary sector organisations XXXX (0:40:09.9) sector organisations to bringing services in house has been the council priority for a while I think has really kind of affected that infrastructure and I think I’ve seen a lot of organisations- some organisations, you know, their times come it’s fine for organisations to come and go but I think the core organisations that have had to struggle while funding was removed or reduced or taken in house into local authority, I think has meant that we haven’t progressed as quickly as I think we could have done. ‘Cos I think that that idea of having different versions, having people delivering services in different ways really kind of pushes service quality forward for everybody. And I think that kind of mono-agency approach I think has stopped some of that creativity and some of that progression. But I think that we can rebuild that, we can start that again, we can bring more resources into the borough by shifting focus but for me that’s been a shame because it was such a strength that kind of voluntary sector and that engagement with the local authority had with that sector. So the local authority were a big funder of that sector, worked really hard, when I was in the council we had people sort of like me working with that third sector and kind of really developing different services that were improvements on what had come before and kind of levering in funding from elsewhere. So I think that losing that infrastructure after so much investment was a shame and I kind of hope that we get back to doing that again.

Am I right in thinking that the monitoring project was one of those which was brought in house?

Yeah well it wasn’t brought in house but funding was reduced and yeah it was one of those those services where I would still think that there’s a huge need. You know those individuals are still active and they’re still doing great work but there’s a need for those sorts of service. And I think it’s the sense of, rather than those services sort of spring up in isolation it’s the networking and so Newham Monitoring Project was great at doing the network. SO it had networks with SubCo, it had networks with Newham Women’s Project, it had networks with a whole bunch of different organisations, you know. And so did we all- the black and ethnic minority community. So we had all of those services kind of really kind of part of the structure with all of the local authority and the health authority and the police and I think it’s kind of important that we bring some of that back. So yeah organisations have closed or scaled down or moved to different areas and I think that it’s that infrastructure that we need to bring back.

Cool thanks I don’t think I have any further questions, do you have anything else or?

No.

Well thank you very much.

Not at all.

Very interesting.

THE END

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_06

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_06

Interviewer: Francis Ball

Interviewee: Palvinder Khudail

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Palvinder Khudail

Project: Growing Old Gracefully

Date of interview: 28.04.18

Language: English

Venue: Common room of Palvinder’s apartment block, Shoreditch

Name of interviewer: Francis Ball

Length of interview: 1hr 12mins 15secs

Transcribed by: Jo Law and Francis Ball

Archive Ref: 2018_esch_GrOG_06

Ok, so it’s the 28^th of April and I’m interviewing Palvinder in the common room of her apartment block in Shoreditch as part of the Subco project. Um could you give me your date of birth please?

Um six, three, sixty two.

And where were you born?

I was born in London, in west London…

Ahha

Um Southall, so I was born and brought up in Southall. Hillingdon hospital to be precise [laughs]

Excellent. Um I’m presuming your family lived um, sort of in Southall at the time?

Yep. My family, all my family were, most of my family were in, in Southall at the time, yea.

What did your parents do when you were growing up?

Um, my parents were um, business people, so my Dad had um, a shop on Southall Broadway? It was one of the first um Asian shops on Southall Broadway, er, because he came here in the um, 50s um, and um initially started doing door to door um, like sales person type stuff before he got enough money to set up shop. So yea, we had , he had a range of shops on Southall Broadway.

Was there a, a presumably quite a big Asian community in that area at the time?

Massive

Yea

Massive, yea, yea it was very, very, predominately Asian. Lots of Asian influence, um, yea it was interesting place, very interesting place. Um, marked in history in some ways because of um the subsequent sort of, you know, the troubles we had around race and the riots that took place, um and killing of Blair Peach, so it’s kind of marked with history, Southal as a place to be. You know

Yea. Is that something you were aware of from quite an early age, like any kind of tension, or was it something you came…

Um, I think when I was growing up I, I didn’t feel any tension and I think that was probably, probably because lived in Southall. I think the first time I noticed something was when I went to college actually, and my, one of my tutors said something to me that always stuck in my mind, he said, “You’re not Asian, you’re British” and I didn’t quite understand what that meant, until quite, you know, later on, I was confused by it actually, cos I was Asian. I was born here but that didn’t mean it, you know, I was born here end of. I didn’t think of it other than, you know, I’m in an Asian community, I spoke English and Punjabi so I was Asian. Um, but I didn’t experience any, any racism when I was growing up at all and in fact, you know um, we had quite good relationships in the community partly because my Dad had been there so long, um in the Caribbean community, everyone kind of knew my Dad, um and they knew the shops you know, they kind of knew him so well in a way that we used to give credit routinely, you know, so you could take something and then pay for it later on? And there was this ledger, this book that we kept for years actually, in fact I remember using it as well, because we had cust, kind of customers who would come, you know, every time their son or daughter was getting married buy their stuff and they would buy on credit and then they would come in, you know, sometimes weekly to pay some of that off? It was all kept manually, you know so he’d, quite, you know, really good relationships in the community.

I think it was when I was a teenager that um, we were, you pick up lots when you’re running the shops and stuff and I used to work there on a Saturday, or go there on a Saturday, had to go there and help out and um, we heard, there were some rumours going around that there was some trouble down on the Broadway itself with some of the shopkeepers um, and we didn’t think anything of it other than, you know, there was something going on, um and then that evening um, we, we all went home shut up shop, went home and we heard lots of commotion so we lived on Ranelagh Road, which is um, very, very close to Hambrough pub, which is where that incident took place with the skinheads. Um so, me and my Mum were looking out the window, um and could see the Broadway and we saw loads of people sort of gathering, so me and my Mum stupidly went out and to have a look, you know, ‘cos we’re all local people and we were just gathering, gathered there watching and every, wondering what’s going on and then all of a sudden um there was a petrol bomb um went off, everyone just scattered and [laughs] I was running back with my Mum trying to get home. So we all, we all went inside and it just kicked off from there and we were up most of the night um, because our shops were on the Broadway and we could see from our road that there was stuff going on the Broadway but we didn’t go out and then of course, you know we got the alarm went off at the shops. At 3o’clock in the morning I remember, you know, walking to the shop with my par, my Mum and my Dad and my brothers, um I didn’t recognise the place anymore because, you know the um, you know, just things like the walls that were there were knocked down, you know, everything just looked different, out shop was smashed up um, and it, the, the place was so busy but it was busy, it was all reporters. So we, you know, we sorted our shop out and came back, but, that was, I remember it 3 o’clock in the morning and the next day when we left, you know went out couldn’t recognise Southall Broadway again in the day, in the daytime either. So that was my first experience of it um, and you know, when I reflected on it sort of a year later I thought actually that was the best thing that happened because, not, not in terms of the incident but in terms of raising awareness and um the strength then of, of specially the younger people there in Southall to say “We can’t, this is not acceptable anymore.” So what I realised was it was happening a lot but, you know, people were just, you know, ignoring it.

Yea

Um, and then I got involved with um, Southall Youth Movement? And er, my parents didn’t know, cos they didn’t want me to get involved in any of that sort of stuff and with Southall Rights, so I used to go and do voluntary work secretly, you know, just walk down the road and say I was going somewhere and I’d go and do some voluntary work. So that was my first taste of any kind of politics?

Wow, would you mind um explaining a bit more about those organisations please?

Yea, sure. So um there was, there was a famous organisation called um I think it was IWA, Indian Workers Association, but it was always made up of older people? You know, and I know my Dad knew people who were, you know, were involved and they, they, so that was my sort of like, well they’re quite political, you know, but I, I couldn’t relate to them, um and there was this thing called Southall Youth Movement that I started to read about and um, I’d, how did I get involved? I know how I got involved. So um, I first got involved with Southall Rights because um, a friend of mine, who’s like a brother, kind of introduces me to it, and he was really encouraging of everyone, you know, so he encouraged me to come and do some voluntary work there. So, you know, I would go in and, so I’d meet, met some people there who were solicitors mainly or had law as their background and they would give, give advice to people coming in for all sorts of things [coughs] and er, and then they would get, er, you know, they would get involved in some kind of campaign and I would help do banners and things cos it, you know, I was quite young, you know, so it was just voluntary work and I would make cups of tea for people, you know, but I was in that environment where I was beginning to become aware of, you know, stuff that I wasn’t aware of before.

Um, so Southall Rights was, and then from Southall Rights I heard about um, er Southall Youth Movement which was on the other side of Southall, we used, they, they used to be, Southall used to be called Southall and Old Southall, yea um, and so it was the other side but it was nearer um, it was an area that I familiar with ‘cos I went to school on that side of Southall. So again I got, kind of got interested in, so I went to some meetings and I ended up on the management committee um but it was quite difficult then because, one, um, there weren’t any young women involved in that organisation, it was very, very male dominated and there was also a little bit of tension between some um of the existing Asian members and Caribbean members um and although it was called Southall Youth Movement the people that were involved were actually older, older people. So we came along as this fresh, you know, we don’t want any of these tensions between Asians, Caribbeans, we’re all black, you know, we’re all facing the same sort of issues and managed somehow to get rid of them, you know, um, and so I got involved in Southall Youth Movement, again not my parents knew, none of, none of, none of that. Um, and then of course when all that stuff kicked off in Southall these organisations were the ones who were kind of quite heavily involved in, you know, supporting people.

So that’s how I got into sort of politics and I remember um I was at Southall, at Southall Rights one day and um, I suppose um, my first campaign that I got involved with was a disaster. So I got involved and it was, I’ll never forget it, it’s called er, ‘Save Cheema’ Cheema was the name of the bloke, and I think it was about him being deported, yea it was about him being deported. So I whole heartedly, you know, helped with this campaign, did banners went out and de,de,der and then we found out that actually he’d been he was a perpetrator of domestic abuse. So kind of that was another then, you know, like ‘Oh my God’ you know, we, we were all, you know, it wasn’t just me, obviously I was just, you know, a kind of follower at that stage but even all the kind of senior people involved in that campaign it was just like ‘Woe,’ you know, this is, you know, we’ve got to learn from this’, we should never have supported this guy, you know, he was beating his wife up, you know, so that was another bit that was like ‘Oh my God’ you know.

So that was, that was a bit of um a learning curve for all of us and then um there was all sorts of things happening in Newham and I never knew Newham cos I was kind of, you know, I never, I never went any far, I was in Southall, you know, and um, there was a campaign that was called Newham Seven, you’ve probably heard of it, it was quite famous, and um, I thought “God, how am I going a, how am I going a get to Newham?” I can’t tell my parents I’m, I’m going there, they won’t like me getting involved um, and um, what I did was I took my niece who was only about 5 years old [laughs] at the time and um, so on, so I said to them “Oh, I’m taking her out for the day”, you know, so took, I took her along and I got on this coach and we went to Newham. I’d no, I didn’t think about the fact, “Oh my God what am I taking her to?” you know, and it was a big demonstration and er, but I taught my niece how to say “Newham Seven” in a certain, you know, and I told her not to say anything to her when we got back, which was a bit naughty but I did, um and, we had, we had a great time.

So yea, then it was that taste of politics outside of, outside of Southall, you know, kind of a bit more of the bigger picture. Um, and then you know, er, because of my own experience, you know, what happened at home with me, um and me leaving home and all of that I ended up in east London, you know, um, and then of course, you know, er I carried on, you know getting involved in, or staying involved in, in politics.

What were the difference between um leaving in west and east London?

Um, I think I was, it was a bit, it was a bit difficult for me at the time, because um, I’d left home under a cloud, so I was still um, I was still doing my degree in east London um, and I, I left home kind of quite suddenly cos I fell out with my parents and it was all very difficult, you know, because I didn’t know anyone really, um, and um, I didn’t know the area, I didn’t know east London, apart from, you know, I used to go to uni there but I didn’t, I didn’t live, I didn’t um, stay in campus or anything, um, I kind of commuted from, from Southall. So I didn’t know the area, so it was a bit of a, bit of a shock. Um, yea it was different, it didn’t feel as cosy? As Southall. Erm, didn’t feel familiar. Erm, but, you know, I, I made friends, erm, particularly through, erm, my first job in, in, which was in Newham, actually, when, after I graduated, in the housing department. Erm, and, er, you know, I, I met people who were political, erm, and also the job I went into, my first job even though I, I graduated as a, a qualified social worker, was in race equality, so I was race equality officer in the housing department. And, you know, you know, politics, I realised, you know, politics was quite a big thing in Newham, partly because of, erm, the campaigns and Newham Monitoring Project, which was central. So Newham Monitoring Project was probably one of the first organisations that I got to know, you know, and, you know, I still, I still have friends, you know, who from that organisation now. People like Unmesh were central to that, but, you know, I don’t have anything to do with him. But, you know, there I people that I have lots to do with now, very, very close.

Erm, so when did you get involved with Newham Monitoring Project? What sort of…

So it was…

… spurred that?

It was, it was, erm, quite soon into my first job. So my first job in Newham was in 1988, so, erm, as race equality officer in housing in Forest Gate. Erm, and pretty much, pretty much, erm, got involved with Newham Monitoring Project straight away.

[INTERVIEW REDACTED]

What sort of, erm, work did you do with them, or sort of campaigns were you involved with?

So, erm, obviously I had to be a little, well, both of us had to be a little bit careful because we were employees of the local authority, but when we were in the housing department there was no, erm, er, things, there wasn’t anything that we didn’t, you know, that was in conflict with the council, because, at the time, the council funded NMP, erm, but obviously didn’t like them very much because NMP were campaigning, you know? But we, at the time I remember we freely got involved with all sorts of campaigns, erm, you know, in our personal time, erm, with Newham Monitoring Project, and in the workspace, anything we did, it was, it was, er, with Newham Monitoring Project in mind, and it was, it wasn’t a problem. So, erm, there was a lot of connectivity with Newham Monitoring Project. They, they, erm… Although, you know, it started off very much as a police campaigning, erm, organisation, it did have an interest in housing interest, you know? For example, you know, where, you know, if there was discrimination against black tenants and that sorts of, you know, that sort of thing. So they were, they were a big influence actually on the work, certainly the work I was doing in the housing department. Erm, yeah. So we got involved in all sorts. All the campaigns we would get involved in because those people then became friends, you know, quite quickly. So, erm, you know, we would see them socially, you know, they were round my house. Erm, you know we would see them all the time, you know? Weekends or whatever. And, erm, you know, we weren’t… Even though I worked in the council, I wasn’t excluded from, you know, getting involved with, er, Newham Monitoring Project. As long as I didn’t put my name to an article, you know, that was against the council or anything like that, erm, I was… But otherwise, yeah, got involved. And, you know, Newham Monitoring Project, erm, you know, they would speak to us if they wanted some information that we could share with them, you know? What’s going on in the council, that sort of thing. You know, I think my allegiance to Newham Monitoring Project was quite strong.

Yeah. Did the council have links with other sort of community organisations like that? Or was it mainly…?

Erm, no I think there was, erm, I can’t remember the name, but there was a, erm… You know like in most authorities they have an umbrella type organisation—I can’t remember what it was called in Newham, but they did have one… I mean they weren’t as strong in terms of campaigning, erm, and there were quite a lot of community organisations in Newham, actually. Erm, but they weren’t.. I don’t think there was any organisation that was similar to NMP, you know, in terms of, you know, they would campaign, and stick their neck out, and say stuff, you know, that I think, I think other organisations, you know, wouldn’t. You know, they would toe the line, or they would be more worried about their funding, or, you know, they might be in, in, you know, with some of the councillors. So I know that… Can’t remember the names of the organisations, but, you know, sometimes it was tension between, you know, NMP and some other organisations because the stand they took.

MmmHmm.

But, you know, there was quite a lot of organisations in Newham.

Right.

And you know, at the time.

Erm, with NMP, how did the, sort of, erm, struggle for racial equality work with sot of Black and Asian communities, or was it, kind of, all together sort of thing.

It was generally… I would say it was quite strong together, you know, and, erm, pretty much I think reflective, er, in terms of the workers and people on management committee—certainly from the people I know, erm, that were on it—I don’t know the ins and outs in terms of there might’ve been some tensions along the way, but I think, generally, it was, it was an organisation that,. erm, you, you know, that was unified in that sense pretty much quite a lot, you know, a lot in terms of… When I, when I was involved with them, certainly it was, erm, strong. You know, there, there weren’t tensions. I mean I don’t know along the way if there have been tensions. There might’ve been. But, erm, no: pretty much solid, solid. We were really clearly, I remember, at the time, you know, erm, even in the terminology we used, it was like, ‘We’re all Black’, you know, polit-, ‘In the political sense, we’re all black.’

Yeah.

Erm, so, yeah. It was good. It was really good. That was a nice thing about it.

Yeah, there must’ve been quite a lot of camaraderie I guess as well if you were a bit more radical on certain issues as well.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Erm, yeah I was really, I was really impressed with that bit. Because I grew up, you know, in Southall, and there wasn’t any tension between Asians and Caribbean, and Caribbean people, when I was growing up. I’m not saying there hasn’t been or anything, but there wasn’t, and certainly my, my family situation it wasn’t. My dad had really, you know, strong links with Caribbean community. In fact, at one point it was… I think it was just before I was born, but I remember that family really, really well. And they, there was a Caribbean family, it was like mixed parentage so, erm, I think the, the guy was Caribbean and his wife was white. But they used to live in our house, rent, er, you know, rented basis. So, you know, it was… Yeah, my dad got on… So I lived, I grew up, there were, you know, we were all black.

Yeah.

You know? Erm, but, you know, I’m sure, erm, there might’ve been tensions within NMP, but not when I was there, not that I picked up and noticed.

Did you enjoy working for the council?

Erm, did I like, en-… I did actually, I really did. I’ve enjoyed all my jobs to this day, erm, but I really enjoyed working for the council. I was, erm… I mean there were bits that I hated about the council, but it was, you know, that, my, my first job, you know, after graduating, er, not having much money ‘cos I’d left home, so, you know, I’d left home with nothing, erm, and, er, I think my first salary was about £10,000, and I thought, ‘Wow! That’s amazing!’ you know? Erm, and, you know, it was a completely new, you know, race equality. My background was I’d just graduated in social work, and I ended up in the housing department. Erm, so, so that bit was, yeah, it was good. I learnt a lot about housing that I didn’t know. And then I did think after two years, I thought, ‘What am I doing here with a social work qualification?’ so then I got a job in the same council, but then it was called Social Services then, as policy advisor for race equality. So it was, it was a promotion, ‘cos, erm, erm, you would have race equality officers in, in most of the, not all the departments, but different structures, but housing probably had the most solid one because they had one for every kind of area, so there were about ten. And then there was a policy advisor. And, and each department had a policy advisor. So I moved into Social Services into the policy advisor role. And then I ended up staying there for, erm, eleven years. Erm, and some of that was because then I had kids, I got married and had children, and it was just convenient being there, erm, for childcare and everything. But, also that I, I, in when I was in Social Services, I moved around different roles, so, erm, I wasn’t in one role all the time. It was… I loved it.

Could you explain the difference in the work you were doing from when you were an equality officer to when you were a, erm…

Policy advisor.

Policy advisor.

Yeah, it was quite different. So in the housing department I was, kind of, responsible for one area, which was Forest Gate. That was kind of like my area. Erm, and it was working with tenants organisations, doing some development work with them, it was, erm, sitting on recruitment panels in the council, and, you know, making sure there was no discrimination in that, in that process. Erm, getting involved in policies and procedures, you know, making sure that race equality was, you know, being addressed, providing advice to the area manager at the time, sitting on the management team… All that kind of stuff. Erm, and then when I moved into policy advisor at Social Services… It was really different because their structure was really different. So they had, erm, they called it an Ethnic Minorities Team, which was, erm, a small group of social workers who, erm… I suppose they were equivalent to the race equality officers, but they were working in a completely different area, and, you know, it was working with, erm, social work teams, and providing advice around care as opposed to housing issues. And my role as a policy advisor was, erm, sitting on then the director-, directorate management team as opposed to an area team—so for the whole of Social Services—erm, and, and it was just broader in terms of, erm, you know, getting involved in, in more corporate type, you know, policy issues. Erm, and, I mean at the time, my predecessor didn’t have a very good relationship with the ethnic minorities team, erm, and then she left, I came in and did a bit of a restructure, but they weren’t happy. They weren’t happy with anyone, basically. Erm, and it got quite difficult for me at the time, because, erm, the unions got involved, because they weren’t, they weren’t—the team—weren’t happy with the restructure. So there was a half day strike that took place, so I felt quite vulnerable, erm, at the time. And the team, the ethnic minority team, had been there for a really long time, and they were all close and friends and stuff. I don’t think I was doing anything to, erm… You know, they weren’t going to lose their jobs. What I was trying to do was put some structure in place, ‘cos they had no job descriptions, ‘cos they’d been there from time. And they just didn’t like it. They didn’t like it. And one by one they just left. Which was probably good for them because some of them went on to do some great things, you know. Erm, so, so then we did put structure in place. And the structure we put in place was, in a way, similar to what I had in housing, which did seem to work. Which was having, erm, you know, equality officers in covering each area of, of social services. And Taskin was one of ‘em actually.

Oh wow.

She was one of my members of staff.

Oh!

Yeah. And, erm, there’s another woman who Taskin will remember, erm, called Anna Wan. She’s, she’s, erm, not around any, now, she’s, she lives in Germany, but, I mean hopefully it will come up later on because,. Because, you know, in SubCo there was, erm, the Chinese elders bit of it as well, and Anna was quite involved with, with that. So I had a team then of race equality officers, erm, and, erm, that worked well, obviously, until, erm… I can’t remember the sequence but I did quite a few roles there. I moved on to, er, doing, er, commissioning role, so managing the commissioning and contracting team. So this was a team of people who, erm, would, erm, get involved in any kind of European funding initiatives. Erm, they would administer all the gr-, it was grants at the time, all the grants, erm, put in place, erm, you know, the service level agreements, erm, do the monitoring of the grants, and also there was a, er, an arm, which we called ‘provider development’, so it was providing developments to organisations as well. Erm, so, so that, that was the kind of difference in terms… It was just a different market if you like, you know, it wasn’t housing any more. Erm, but we, you know, we kept in touch with… NMP was still then, you know, quite well known, and we carried on doing the political stuff as well, but I suppose NMP weren’t as engaged or as involved at, as they were with housing issues with, with social services, for obviously reasons, you know?

So what sort of issues were Social Services focussing on?

So it was, erm… Some of the similar things to housing, like recruitment policies and procedures. Erm, but the big area was around, erm, erm, racism from service users. And the bit that is really complex in, in, in social services in that area of work is, you know, on the one hand you’re providing a statutory service to someone, erm, and what do you do if they’re racist? You know? I mean blatantly racist, so, you know, a lot of the service users—not a lot of the service users, some of the service users were racist—what do you do? Erm, you can’t, erm, say to them, ‘No, you can’t have a service anymore.’ Because, you know, you’d get in trouble because it was a statutory service, but what you can do is put procedures in place to challenge them, you know, and, and, and be able to say to them, ‘I’m, I’m not going to deal with you now’, or, ‘This is, this is wrong’ and have some sort of reporting mechanism around it. So it was putting those sorts of things in place. Erm, so that was one bit. The second bit was around, erm, er, you know, developing organisations, erm, and making sure there was equality in terms of who gets funding and who doesn’t get funding. Erm, and that, that became a bigger issue, erm, because even if, erm, we said, ‘Okay, we’re going to look at how, you know, we distribute funding’, if there isn’t a Black organisation in case then they’re not going to get funding, are they? No. And there was a big need to fill some gaps, you know, in the community based on some of the issues that were coming up in, in Social Services. So for example, erm, you know, Female Genital Mutilation: I remember a time, er, when I was in Newham, it was, it was a brand new thing then, it’s not any more, it’s a brand new thing and there, there were some organisations around, but there weren’t in Newham. Erm, and we, you know, we helped set one up, you know? I remember being personally involved in developing an organisation around FGM, Female Genital Mutilation. Erm, and there were, there were a couple of other examples as well.

What sort of work would it take to develop an organisation like that?

So it was… And that’s where you get out of your, erm, your, you, you, you sort of have your local authority hat on, but actually you’re doing some of the, you know, campaigning but in a different wat. So what, what we did, erm, and there was a couple of examples around, around where, erm, you, you had lots of links with people in the community anyway, erm, and you would, sort of, encourage them and say, ‘Look, we will help you and guide you, erm, to set-up a management committee,’ for example, erm, ‘So you can you get, you know, can you get your colleagues, can you get your groups together, you know, and, and see who, who might take up some of these roles.’ Erm, so we would, erm, you know, my officers, for example, would, would, would, help them. They would give them some draft documents that they might, you know, mirror their organisation on, help them write, you know, what, what sort of services they would provide, erm, and then say to them, ‘Look, you now need to have your kind of first AGM’, if you like, ‘And when you get your AGM we will help you and give you advice only in terms of how you might bid for a grant.’ Erm, and then, you know…

They’re sort of up-and-running.

Yeah. Well, what we did this massive piece of work in Newham when I was there, erm, because there was quite a lot of organisations who received money historically, you know, for years, established organisations, and they had councillor networks, you know, and there was, there was no real, erm… Sometimes the purpose of those organisations weren’t clear, and it’s because they’d just be getting money every year. They were used to it. And, erm, there were some organisations that were a little bit iffy, you know? Now, I can’t remember the name of one of them, but there were definitely a couple where you thought, ‘Actually, what do they actually provide and…?’ and, you know, ‘Why are we even giving them the money? It doesn’t even fit with, you know, anything anymore, our vision of, of the council anymore. Why are we giving them money?’ Erm, and, also, you know, a lot of them were white, white based organisations, you know? Erm, so although there was quite a lot of money around there was still, you know, a limit on how much there was in the pot. Erm, and so how, how can you, how can you balance it if you don’t change the existing, you know, erm, sector? So what we did, and it was quite an, it was quite a challenge for me, erm, what we decided, and we got—I’ll tell you how we got the support to do it—is what we said is, ‘Right, everything, every, every, erm, grant, now, erm, we’re gonna, gonna take eighteen months to do it—so we had a plan for eighteen months—everything is gonna now, everyone’s gonna have to rebid for everything, okay? And it’s gonna be based on a commissioning plan, so we’re going to set up a plan, erm, setting up what we need and why. So we won’t be naming organisations, we’ll just be naming what service we want, you know, based on data, based on what we need. And, and everything is gonna be recommissioned,’ if you like, ‘and, and people can apply for it. And they’ll have to bid for it. Erm,’ they’ll have to, erm, come for interviews,’ erm, you know, ‘We’re going to go for a whole process of doing it.’ Which is why it took eighteen months. And I remember, in my office, I had this, erm, erm, just sheets of paper, all along the wall, with, erm, I mean, you know, nowadays you would do it on, erm, a Gantt chart, but it was like, ‘Right, this month we’re gonna be doing this, this month…’ And all the way along we had, erm, er, development workshops and things. So our plan was that, in some areas—for example, one of the new areas was supporting, supporting ethnic minority families who are going through the child protection process—we knew that there wasn’t anyone out there who can do that, so that will need development, but we put aside a pot of money for it. So, so in this plan that went along my wall, we had everything in there from, you know, when we would go to committee, when we would, erm, you know, er, do a workshop, when we might… you know? All the way along, you know? That’s why it took eighteen months. But because everything around the grant system was so political, erm, the way I got through it, you know, and it wasn’t easy, was I went to committee every so often. So every time I went to committee with a report they signed up to it. So if they said later on—because, you know, there was a lot of influence around—if they said, ‘Well, no, no, no.’ Well, actually, you signed up to it! So all the way along I went to committee telling people, telling members what I was doing, what we were doing—and supported by Deborah Cameron anyway, so supported by the director… Erm and it did, it changed the profile, actually, but it caused a lot of angst because some organisations did not get any money. And we had pickets on… I called it rent-a-crowd, we had camp-, we had people coming to committee. I was, I was not popular, you know with, you know, with, with some people, actually. Erm, but we did change the profile and with, with like the FGM organisation, for example, what we, what we said is that, you know, we’d, we’d keep that pot of money, erm, they’d still have to bid for it, erm, but I, I remember there’s went out a bit late, you know, because by the time you get developed you have to wait for the first AGM before you can duh duh duh, and then they bid for it. So it was all, it was… And we did, we did have a different profile, you know, in the community. We did get some organisations who did lose out, some of the old, traditional organisations. So, yeah, it was… yeah, so I did… So I think you were saying, ‘Did I enjoy the local authority.’ It was tough.

Yeah.

But it was, it was great.

Was it quite novel that, erm, local authorities would have, erm, departments and people, er, looking at issues around race, or was that well established by the time you were working there?

No it wasn’t, not Social Services at all. Erm, no, I’ll qualify that: so the Ethnic Minorities Team, who’d been there for a long time…

[INTERVIEW REDACTED]

… if a social worker did something they didn’t like, you know, they’d go in, go in heavy. And I kinda got that, but I also thought, ‘Actually, you need to provide support for social workers. They need,’ you know, ‘to encourage them to change their practice, as opposed to just go gunning for them. Erm, so it was established in the sense that, you know, the team were there, but I’m not sure if everyone was sensitised to race equality type issues because, erm, sometimes I, my view was that the team was side-lined. You know, ‘We’ll just leave them. We won’t give them job descriptions. We’ll let them do their campaigning’, duh duh duh duh… ‘But we can say we’ve got an ethnic minorities team.’ I don’t know how much impact they had. And that was a bit, you know… So, yeah, it was established, but, I don’t…

A bit tokenistic.

Yeah, a bit tokenistic. And I remember the director at the time, said… So when I first joined Social Services it wasn’t Deborah Cameron, it aws another guy called Ken Boyce, who’s passed away now, but, erm, he was an interesting guy, so… And I reported directly to him. And I remember going to my first—I think I was quite new, new, but I knew how to, erm, get involved in interview panels because I was doing that in, in housing—and he was appointing a senior, er, one of these heads of service in Social Services, and it was a member appointment, so the chair of the Social Services committee, he was also involved, so I went along, erm, and did my short listening, and I was, you know, really quite, erm, you know, I, I used to follow the rules and procedures—I’m quite a compliant sort of person—and, erm, you know, been doing it for two years in housing and it was fine. So I got involved with this recruitment process, and, erm, I noticed that, you know, Ken Boyce wanted to put someone through, and, on paper, I thought, ‘No. I don’t agree with it.’ Because, you know, whatever. And I said it. I went and said it. And he did not like it at all. And I was quite new into the role with him—I’d not worked with him before—and he banged his, erm, fist on the table, and I just like, ‘What?!’, you know, and he says, he said something like, he referred to me as, ‘the policy advisor’. So, basically, he wanted to push this woman through—it was a woman—and I thought she didn’t meet the criteria, you know? And he didn’t like it at all, erm… And then, erm… So I, you know, I had to sort of manage him. But then I found out lots about him, er, and I also found out that he was having an affair with someone in the organisation—everyone seemed to know about it—and he wanted to put this woman through ‘cos he kind of fancied her.

Wow.

Erm, he was, he was, yeah… I kind of got, I got on with him, but it was always quite, erm, you know, boundaried, you know? I would be quite, you know… We didn’t have friendly relationships. But the man liked conflict. So when I had this issue with the ethnic minorities team he loved it. He supported me, but he thrived on the conflict. He loved watching the conflict between, you know, or the disagreement between me and the ethnic minorities team. We were all women. Yeah we were all women; the team was all women. I stood my ground on it because I believed in what I believed, you know, was the right thing to do. Erm, you know, he supported me, and like I said there was a half day’s strike against me, erm, and he supported me, but he loved the conflict. Yeah, so it was, it was difficult with him, and then he was more or less ousted, nothing to do with me. Erm, I think he, he did something. Did he do something? Yeah! So when Deborah Cameron came in, she was, she was one of the heads of service. And I remember when she first came in, me and her had a clash, because, again, it was around some policies and procedures. I was really, I qas quite dogmatic at the time, you know? ‘This needs to happen. That needs to happen properly’. And she clashed with me, I remember, and, you know, that was fine ‘cos I’m not there to be liked, you know? So I had a clash with her. Erm, but there was some allegation that she made of Ken Boyce, and she managed to rally a load of other people to support her and sign, sign a statement against him, which people did—and erm, I wasn’t, I wasn’t party to that, but people did. He then got… He got ousted, basically. Erm, and she got directorship.

Wow.

So that’s how she became director. And… So me and her, again, you know, it was always a boundaried relationship, but she was very different to him, and she would, erm, she would be quite friendly towards me. Erm, er, so I kind of, erm… Yeah, I mean, I suppose I was sort of friends with her. She came, she came… When I got married she came to my wedding. When I had my first child she came to the hospital, so we kind of got on quite well. But at the same time, she was also quite a difficult character, erm, and there was not many people in the organisation that got on with her. There were a lot of people who left on really bad terms. I didn’t. I actually didn’t. So, so I learned how to manage her, and, if I’m honest with you, I also, in terms of my allegiance with, you know, the community, actually got a lot for them because I managed her.

Mmm.

You know, and… You know, she would listen. Erm, she, she wanted to be liked. She wanted to be liked by the community as well. So she, she kind of accepted my advice more than, more than Ken Boyce did, I suppose.

Was there a particular reason that people found it hard to work with her?

Erm, she was mad.

[Laughs]

She is mad. Erm, was there a particular reason? So Deborah Cameron, she had the heart, her heart was in the right place. It was all about children. She was, erm, her background was children, child protection. She was excellent in terms of her commitment towards children. But I think she, she got on people’s nerves. She just, it’s just the way she managed them, I think. And she would have… You know, she wasn’t very organised. You know, she was clever but she wasn’t very organised. And then she would do some bizarre things like, she had a dog called Fanny [Laughs] who she used to bring into the office. I suppose that bit was alright—who cares if she brings her dog into the office or not?—but I think it was more the managers that she, that managed the service, just didn’t get on with her. Erm, she was interfering I suppose, but then she’s a manager, she’s a director, she can interfere in anything she likes really. Erm, I suppose I, I, I… yeah, I just got on with her. And I used her, you know, to get what I wanted for the community. That was my job.

What were the particular needs, erm, of the Asian community for social care?

Quite big, actually. Erm, there was, erm… There was, there was some organisations around anyway that were already established, but Asian elders XXXX [00:50:19] stood out for me in terms of there was a need. Erm, there was a need for sort of day centre type provision, there was a need for residential provision—or it was creeping up, residential provision; it wasn’t initially. But, because the population, we knew that that was project and was going to be an issue—and food, meals, you know? Erm, and SubCo was quite influential. Erm, there was a character there, I don’t know if Taskin’s mentioned to you, Mr Bhattercherjee, is…? Well I’m pretty sure he’s not alive any more, I think. As I say, his name… I’m sure she would’ve mentioned him. Mr Bhattercherjee his name is.

What did he do?

Oh! He was a character! I remember him. He was, er… I mean, you know, his heart’s in the right place, you know, he would just like speak out a lot. And sometimes he’d go off-piste and you don’t know what he’s talking about but… And he can be, could be, you know, potentially annoying, ‘Mr Bhattercherjee again’, you know? But he was an Asian elder, you know, and he was central to that group, that I remember. Erm, but yeah, so there was, er… I was specifically, you know, for the, for Asian elders there was an issue, and that’s how, you know, SubCo became quite, quite important, quite prominent. If there were any campaigns then, you know, SubCo would turn up. [Laughs] You know, rent-a-crowd sometimes, but they would just turn up. I don’t think half of them knew what they were turning up to, but, you know, they would be transported there, and there would be some in their wheelchairs looking quite vulnerable, quite handy, you know? It worked, erm, at the time. Erm, but the centre was lovely. It just became, erm, quite busy and buzzy, and it felt like, erm, you know the Asian elders were having a really nice time, actually. You know, er, nice place to socialise. And then the meals aspect came in, which was a bit of a… I remember it was a bit of a… You know, yeah, we got a result. You know, now, you know, they can eat the feed they like as well. It was really nice to see. And I remember when I used to go and visit, we used to go and have a bit to eat as well, you know? It was lovely, absolutely lovely. I think I remember, was there a kitchen there as well? Taskin will know. And I think the cooking was done there as well at one point. I can’t remember. And then that service, I think it developed into a meals on wheels provision as well, which was needed. And then, I think for me, when the Chinese elders bit got integrated into SubCo that was the bit that was, you know, I’ve still got a picture in my head. There were, there were… I think it was based on certain days. Not to say that you wouldn’t have Asian elders and Chinese elders seen in the same room, but I have a feeling, might’ve been to do with the kitchens, but you would have certain days when there would be Chinese meals, and Chinese elders would be there. And that was lovely. I think that was, that was the bit that I thought, ‘Yeah, this is, this is really nice. Beautiful.’ You know, watching people enjoy eating their own food. Having the freedom to do that.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean it’s obviously very important for people, especially as they get older…

Yeah.

… to have…

Yeah. Yeah.

So, when did you, sort of, first come into contact with SubCo.

It was when I was in Newham. I can’t remember the year but I would’ve, I would’ve… I can’t remember when it was established now, do you? Can’t remember.

Twenty-five years ago.

So twenty-five years ago. So what year would that be? Erm, twenty-five years?

1993?Erm, yeah, ’93?

’93. So I would’ve been in Social Services then. So, yeah, so I would’ve been part of the grant funding that they got.

Mmm.

I can’t, if I’m honest, I can’t remember the detail, but it would’ve, they would’ve gone through the same process. It would’ve had to have a management committee. I know Ramesh Verma who you’ve probably, you’ve probably seen, haven’t you?

Yeah.

She was really, really active in… She’s a buzzy, she still is, but she was, you know, a buzzy sort of character. She was involved in lots and lots of things, lots of organisations. Erm, and she was really, erm… So you might have… Mr Bhattercherjee who’s an elder but, you know, you couldn’t control what would come out of his mouth and whether it would be, you know, alright to say, or constructive. And then you’d have Ramesh Verma, who was highly respected, and, but would say it in a way that, you know, would be quite constructive in possibly language that local authority would understand, but also in a campaigning way, sort of demanding way. So, I think what happened in Newham was, and it was needed, was, you know, you, you want the voluntary sector to be banging on your door, you know, saying, ‘I want this; I want that’, you know? And that’s what began to happen. And I encouraged that actually. That was great.

Mmm.

‘Cos that helped me. ‘Cos if they campaigned and… Not campaigned as in pickets, when it came to Asian elders or, you know, ethnic minority organisations in social care, but, you know, demanding, writing in, you know, to Deborah Cameron, and copying me in. You know, I would say to them, ‘Copy me in as well’, you know? Er, In fact, you know I would encourage. Deborah, Deborah would probably kill me now, but I played the role of, ‘Yeah! Do it! Write in. This is what you should say’! [Laughs]

[Laughs]

You know? And Deborah would say pass it on to me… [Laughs]

[Laughs]

… to deal with! I thought, ‘Yeah alright Deborah, alight. I think we should do this.’ So, yeah, played the game.

But I mean I guess without that sort of community involvement you don’t really know what the needs are, and…

No.

… how they want them to be met.

Absolutely. So in the local authority we’d do all the, erm, you know, the commissioning and, er, look at the population, and, and do basic kind of needs analysis. So you would know, yeah, you’ve got an Asian elders population, you know? A growing population etc. But unless you actually involved in the community you won’t know what, how they want it. So, yeah, you know, residential homes are, you know, established, you know, environments, but the way they’re constructed might not be appropriate for Asian elders. So getting involved in that sort of design, you know, what that would look like, is really important...

Mmm.

… you know, for the community. You know, I have to say, I don’t think, you know, the community were always happy, you know, but, you know I think, I think we got some results. And I think since things have got worse haven’t they? Because of the funding situation and, erm… There was, er, a dependency on the council, ‘cos, ‘cos it was all grant based, so, you know, er, you know, communities would say, ‘The need hasn’t changed so why has my… Why would you’, say, ‘withdraw the funding? Or even reduce the funding, actually: I want more!’ You know, erm, and then there was a bit of a sea change where people had to look elsewhere, you know? Which is a good thing, you know: look at other types of funding. Don’t just rely on what you get from the council.

Mmm.

Because budgets... I don’t think it was that bad at the time, but since then they’ve shrunk considerably. So, you know, lots of places, I’m still involved in another organisation in Newham, and I’ve been involved since 1989, so, again, when I was in Newham… it used to be called Newham Asian Women’s Project, it’s now called London Black Women’s Organisation, so I’m still on the management committee of that, so I’ve still got Newham sort of connection.

Were you… So was it founded in 1989, or did you join?

I was involved in, in, in when it was, when it was established, erm… I… And I’ve been on the committee more than I’ve been off since. You know, there was a period when I came off, then I went back on. Erm, but that organisation’s been around that long as well. Yeah, ’80-, about ’88, ’89.

Yeah. Would you mind telling me a bit more about that organisation: how it was started up and what you did?

Yeah. How what?

How it started up and what sort of work you did.

Okay, erm, so, erm, Newham Asian Women’s Project, erm, mainly, er, at the time, er, for a long time it was focussed on Asian women, erm, escaping domestic abuse. Erm, and, erm, there was, er, at the time there was just one kind of refuge, er, in a secret location in Newham. And, erm, there was an advice centre that started to develop, so it was refuge accommodation for a small number of people, and providing advice. It was an organisation that, erm, the councillors didn’t like because, er, some of the councillors… I remember, one time, one of the councillor’s wives came into the service.

Wow!

Because he’d hid her. He’d beat her up. Erm, and so it was quite difficult for the councillors to, erm, have that organisation in Newham. Erm, some old fashioned gits who thought, you know, you know, we’re doing the wrong thing. So it was probably quite difficult, erm, you know, start up for the organisation. But, you know, it got funding, erm, and it was there. Erm, and then it slowly began to expand, so, er, as well as a refuge it had kind of a, a second stage, erm, hostel type accommodation. So after refuge you move into a second stage refuge before you, you know, went out and got your own council place, or your own place. Erm, and then, over time, erm, the advice element, erm, expanded. Erm, it attracted somewhat, some funding from, from health as well as, you know the health authority at the time in Newham as well as, as well as the council, and started to do some work with, er, young girls. So it had a young girls, sort of, element to it. And, and then, erm, again, you know, sort of probably a bit more recently it expanded into Haringey actually. So it was still called Newham Asian Women’s Project, but there was, erm, the organisation that was in Haringey was kinda falling apart, and they asked Newham whether we wanted to engage, so we did. So we had, had, erm, a refuge over there in Haringey. Erm, and, erm, and then more recently, only in the last year or so, erm, we changed our name, sort of a little bit reluctantly, but there was lots of pressure, erm, to move away from just, er, being, you know, an organisation for Asian women, erm, so it’s now called London Black Women’s Organisation. Erm…

What, sort of… Erm, where did the pressure come from to…?

Pressure, pressure was from funders. And, and I think sea change nationally as well. It, it wasn’t just, it wasn’t just a Newham thing, it was a national thing. So we have, we’ve done that, and that’s, that’s fine, and we don’t rely on just funding from, from Newham. Erm, but it does a lot of good work around, you know, er, abuse, domestic abuse. I think relationships with some of the, erm… It was mainly with the male, the male councillors that wasn’t good. Er, but I think people just got used to it, ‘cos we didn’t go, we stayed and carried on. You know, erm, and, erm… Yeah, it’s great. It’s a great organisation, you know, to be involved in.

Mmm.

And I’ve stayed involved, so that’s quite nice.

Was there ever, erm, pressure on the organisation from men in the Asian community?

From the Asian community?

Yeah.

Well, from the councillors mainly. I don’t think… I think we had a fairly good relationship with all the groups, the voluntary groups, actually, but it was mainly Asian councillors. And you know, they’re a bit of a force, you know? Especially around funding, you know? You rely on funding. Erm, and they didn’t like the challenge. You know, if there was any challenge they didn’t like it.

[INTERVIEW REDACTED]

But, no, Newham, er, London Black Women’s Organisation is there, and, er, it’s solid.

Yeah.

Solid.

Yeah. Erm, what was it like working with Taskin in the council? Did she get on well?

So she, as I said, she worked, when she worked in the council the only job, I think the only job she had in the council was with me, actually, I’m pretty sure. Yeah,. She was great. She was absolutely great. Erm, so she was, erm, she was a race equality officer for, I think it was for Stratford or Forest Gate. One of those, one of those. I can’t remember. And she was absolutely great to work with, you know? Really , really good. What else can I say about her? Yeah, she knew what she was doing, you know? Yeah. I enjoyed working with… I, but, you know, like I said, Anna Wan was another one. I think I, I, Satnam Singh was difficult, erm, I didn’t enjoy working with him, and we had, erm, another guy, erm—what was his name?—who, he was just, he was redeployed. I took him on because he was redeployed elsewhere. But, actually, he, he, er, had mental health issues, erm, and that exploded at one point and he, er… He wasn’t very nice to me, but he wasn’t nice to anyone. So he would go to the papers and make complaints about the councillors, and about the leader, erm, and he ended up in tribunal and then got very ill, erm, called the judge Monica Lewinsky because she had long hair. Erm, anyway, he, he… He was a bit… But all my, all my team, the race equality officers, were brilliant. Brilliant.

Erm, you mentioned about when, er, Chinese elders used to come to SubCo. Do you know…

Yeah. Chinese elders, yeah.

… do you know when that sort of stopped happening?

I don’t actually. I don’t. I don’t know whether it was… I think it was after I left. So I left in, erm… I think I left in 2000, I think. Or ’99. 2000. So I don’t know. I think it was still, still going on. SubCo was thriving, erm, Taskin was, I think… I think she was chief executive, and I, and then I came across her somewhere, she’d decided to do a social work qualification, so I think… I can’t remember if I bumped into her in Camden when I was doing consulting, but she never went into social work. She never went to become a social worker. She did the qualification as far as I know, and then she went back to, you know, in SubCo. Erm, as far as I know, the Chinese… I don’t know if they’re still doing it, but Chinese elders were, I think it was still going on.

Mmm.

Yeah.

Erm, do you have any particular memories of visiting the centre, or any sort of particular work that SubCo did that stands out?

Yeah, I was there all the time! Well, not all the time, but, yeah, I would visit all the, quite frequently. Erm, you know, like I said, if we went there, and we would have a bite to eat, erm, you know, we would, I would chat to people. Erm, I mean I, in the, in my team there was all, there was always links, you now? People had portfolios around which areas of grant funding they were kind of managing if you like. Which ones they would do the conrtact managing for, you know? So, yeah, they used to visit on a regular basis, but, erm, I used to visit, you know, SubCo. And that’s, you know… It was lovely walking in, seeing people eating, and just milling around, chatting to people, having a nice time. Erm, and then, if they had kind of events and stuff they would, they would invite me, erm, you know, to come along. Ramesh was also really good at that. She would say, ‘Well, we’re having this’, you know, ‘will you come along?’

What sort of events would they have?

You know, AGMs, erm, or just any kind of religious or cultural, erm, type events. They would have quite a lot of those in Newham. Erm, you know, I think they probably cut down a lot because of funding for those sorts of things, but they used to do those and, erm, er, you know, take the Asian elders out on trips. But if there were events they would always bring them in to the centre, you know, and they would be central to it.

Mmm.

Yeah, all kinds of events would happen. You know, there’d be a leaflet about it, you know, somewhere. Erm, saying, ‘This is happening’, whatever.

Where there any sort of characters involved with SubCo, or service users that XXXX [01:11:04]?

There was another guy, he was, no, he was actually a councillor, but I can’t remember his name, but he was closely affiliated to SubCo. I remember him being quite vocal in, in a good way. But I think it’s Mr Bhattercherjee who kind of stood out a lot. Erm… I don’t… I can’t remember. I can’t remember names.

Mmm.

You know, you’d see the usual kind of same-old, same-old people there, but I can’t remember their names.

Erm, I’ve sort of kind of finished asking all the questions I had in my mind. Is there anything else you’d like to say, or, sort of…?

Er, no, not really, actually. But, er, yeah, it’s a lot that came back to me while I was talking actually. It was quite nice.

Yeah. Good.

Yeah, it was really nice memories of Newham, actually. Really nice memories. Yeah.

Excellent. Well, thank you very much for your time.

No, no, no, it’s okay.

The End

Not to be used without copyright.

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Palvinder Khudail

Project: Growing Old Gracefully

Date of interview: 28.04.18

Language: English

Venue: Common room of Palvinder’s apartment block, Shoreditch

Name of interviewer: Francis Ball

Length of interview: 1hr 12mins 15secs

Transcribed by: Jo Law and Francis Ball

Archive Ref: 2018_esch_GrOG_06

Interview Details

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Jabeer Butt

Project: Growing Old Gracefully - SubCo

Date of interview: 03/05/2018

Language: English

Venue: Race Equality Foundation

Name of interviewer: Francis Ball

Length of interview: 49:07

Transcribed by: Francis Ball

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_07

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Interviewer

Interviewee

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[00:00:00]

Okay, so it’s the 3^rd of May, and I’m inter-interviewing Jabeer Butt as part of the SubCo project at his office, which is Race Foundation, in Kentish Town. Would you mind giving me your date of birth please, jabeer?

It’s 26 June, 1963.

And where were you born?

Uganda.

Is that… Presumably that’s where you were living at the time with you family.

Er, yes, yes. Erm, both my grandfathers, er, moved to, to East Africa back in the 1920s, and, eventually, the rest of the families followed them as well. So, erm, by 1948, not only were my grandparents there, the majority of their children were there as well. And my parents got married in, in Uganda, and, er, that’s where, where all except one of us were born as well.

Do you know what brought your grandparents to Uganda?

Erm, it was a British colony at the time, and, er, erm, Britain had started to build, er, a railway line connecting various parts of East Africa together—Uganda, Kenya, Tanzania, and so on—and to build the railway line they brought over a huge number of Indian workers. And both my grandfathers were, were tailors, and went along, essentially, to service the, the new communities that were being formed in East Africa.

Wow. Erm, how old were you, sort of, before you left Uganda. I mean, do you have any memories growing up there?

I left two days after my ninth birthday [Laughs] so we were, we were moved here on the, er, 28^th of June, 1972, and then… [Pause] Erm, obviously some memories are mine are all in terms of going to, er, growing up and going to school there. Erm, some memories I suspect are the result of people talking about what happened at this time, and what happened at that time, whether or not, er, I could remember them in, on my own, I’m not sure, but I’m… Erm…

What was the experience like of leaving the sort of country where your born and traveling to somewhere completely different?

Oh! I dreaded the prospect. Erm, so… [Pause] it was partly not only the unknown, but what we did know about, about, about England and, and the United Kingdom wasn’t something that, erm, necessarily appealed. We’re going to come from an extremely warm country, to [Laughs]…

[Laughs]

… what appeared to be an extremely cold country and so on, so, erm…

Apart from the climate were there any other sort of big differences you noticed when you came here?

Well it was hugely different. I remember being, er, treated as a fifth class citizen. Not even second class, but… Was, er, experience literally from day one, so, erm…

Where, where did you settle?

Erm, Walthamstow.

Mmm.

Erm, so I was in Walthamstow up until the age of seventeen, and then we moved to, to Tottenham before I then went of to u-university, so…

What was it like growing up under a sort of cloud of racism?

Clearly in a, we were very lucky that, er, not only was my family there, but lots of my relatives were there as well, so, erm… It was a comparatively enjoyable, er, time, because, you know, we were able to establish that. However, it was, it was clearly tainted by the experience of, of, of racism, erm… Not least in the, impact that it had on, on, on the family circumstances, erm… My father worked in, er, in British Plastics, often having to work two shifts a day to, just about, earn enough [Laughs] to put food on the table and, erm… Erm, education was always a challenge and so on, but… [Pause] And then life in Walthamstow was… Even though there’s such a large minority community there, it was always, always a challenge. The regularity with which the National Front and various skinheads and so on saw it as their stamping ground was, was, er, [Pause] extraordinary. And, and you knew not, not to go to certain places. So you never went to Chingford [Laughs]; you never went to Leytonstone even though there was still a part of Waltham Forest, er... And there were very clear reasons why you never went to Chingford and you never went to Leytonstone, erm… Comparatively dangerous.

MmmHmm. Erm, where di you go to university?

Manchester. Manchester Polytechnic.

What was that experience like?

It was good. It was good. Erm, Manchester… I arrived the September after the 1981 riots, so loads of the places that I lived in had been impacted by the, by the riots and so on. Erm, so in a… Very close to where I lived for a year was still being… They were still clearing up, erm, the debris from the riots, so, erm…

What were the riots about?

It was the what are now known as the ‘Race Riots’ of 1981, where people in Moss Side, in various parts of London (including Waltham-Walthamstow, Brixton, er…), St Anns in Nottingham, erm, er, Chapeltown in Leeds and so on, all started to riot at the, mainly at the treatment of Black and Minority Ethnic communities. It happened not so long after, er, er, a Bangladeshi family in Walthamstow also died as a result of a fire that’d been started. Er, while the culprits were never caught (I don’t think were ever caught) there was always this suspicion that it was a racially motivated fire as well, so…

Mmm.

So a very difficult time. Clearly it was also the height of Thatcher’s attack on, on many of the safeguards that, erm, people had come to expect, and so unemployment had started to shoot through the roof, and a number of the safety nets that were meant to be there were being pulled away.

MmmHmm. Sounds like quite a challenging period in many respects.

It was. It was. It was. Erm…

Did you enjoy your, sort of, university time?

It was very good. I had, I had a whale of a time. Those were the days we still had grants…

[Laughs]

… so we weren’t, erm, engaged in the level of debt that the present day students are. And being in Manchester, which was—in comparison to London and other places—was a comparatively cheap place to live, erm, meant that, you know, the grant did stretch to having a reasonable life, so… It was good. Yeah, good.

Erm, what were you studying?

I did, er, historical studies at, er, Manchester, which was (Manchester Polytechnic) which was, er, a degree that was, er, taught in collaboration with English Department, so there were twenty of us doing history, and there were twenty of us doing English, but we would regularly, er, have joint, joint sessions.

So after, after finishing at university, what did you go on to do, er, sort of immediately afterwards?

I secured a ESRC grant to do a PhD at Manchester University, as opposed to Manchester Polytechnic. Erm… [Pause] And towards the end of that I secured a job, a research job, in London.

Wow.

Started, started working.

What area did you move back in London?

I came back to Tottenham, but the work was in Hounslow, so from one end of London…

[Laughs]

… to the other end on a daily basis, so a challenge.

What was your, sort of, research involved in?

It was looking at, er, at the experience of racial harassment in, in Hounslow. Erm, there had been a whole set of issues in the run up to the, to the work taking place, not least in that there were a number of estates in, in, er, in Hounslow that were, were very problematic, and were hotbeds of racial harassment and really… A number of voluntary groups were trying to work out what could be done better. So that was what…

Was lots of the work that was taking place sort of voluntary, or was there kind of broader government involvement?

Er, it varied in the, the local authority there was a labour run authority at that time, and they were supposedly supportive, erm, but, er, lots of the other statutory agencies either didn’t see it as an issue, or see it as a priority, so… The local police were [Pause] didn’t really pay much attention to it and so on, so…

Were you happy to be coming back to London from Manchester?

Not hugely so. I’ve never been a fan of London, although I’ve worked in London for, for, for many many years, er… Had, er [Pause]… More returning due to work than, than wanting to live here.

MmmHmm. Had it changed significantly when you were in, since when you were in Manchester, or sort of much the same?

Erm, er, I think there were, there had been some changes, but under it I suspect that those changes were taking place across the country. There’d been a dramatic rise of, erm, political participation among Black and Minority Ethnic communities, so we were not only voting, but we were actually becoming elected as councillors in particular. It was the rise of the black section in the labour party at the same time. It was, erm [Pause]… Obviously Scarman had been published in 1985, and supposedly government was trying to take action to, to respond to it as well, so, erm…

Was that a, sort of, report that came out?

Lord Scarman, because there were another set of, er, riots in 1985, and Lord Scarman was, er, asked to look into the causes of those, er, the riots, and he wrote, wrote a report that, erm, is a sort of key point in, in ,er, in the development of race relations in Britain. Lots of people talk about McPherson and the impact that McPherson, but Scarman was, I suspect, probably even more, er, important in what he did, certainly for local government and local government paying attention to issues to do with inequality. Erm, and importantly, Scarman reported at a time when, er, a Conservative government was still, er, at the peak of its, er, authority and so on. Yet he was able to persuade it sufficiently to certainly see some money being put into addressing issues to do with inequality.

MmmHmm.

And…

So, apart from that, there was more political engagement by the Black community.

Certainly was in a local, loc-, er, as I said, certainly in, er, you know, local government, local Labour, and many more people coming forward and standing for election, and thankfully many more people getting elected as well. Often men rather than women, but, you know, erm… It wasn’t the, the sea of white faces that, that there used to be in local government.

Mmm. As a Ugandan Asian, how did you see your place within the Black community (‘cos I mean that sort of idea of the ‘Black Community’ has changed quite a lot at the time)?

It, it constantly changes. Certainly my understanding of, of it was that I was part and parcel of that experience. Erm, I’ve not only experienced racism directly, but I understood how it was impacting the community as a whole, erm, so [Pause]… I think the, the challenge for, for me was that I, I, I wasn’t, er, sure that, er, the people on the left were, er, were addressing it, and addressing it any better than the people on the right, and therefore I was very reluctant to join any parties, erm…

What, erm, sort of aspect did your political engagement take?

Oh various things from, erm, regularly turning up to demonstrations, whether it was outside the, the South African embassy, or, or, or a whole set of other issues, erm… To certainly try to influence, erm, what was happening in local government.

So, I mean, that was around the mid-‘80s right, you said?

Mmm.

Sort of in the intervening period between then and the foundation of SubCo, what sort of work did you find yourself in?

Erm, as I say, I was a researcher and, er, once the Hounslow work finished, I got a job at Birmingham City Council. Was there for fifteen months as a researcher, then got a job at the National Institute for Social Workers and Researchers, erm… Eventualyl then moving to the [Coughs] the Foundation in its original form.

What, what sort of research did you carry out when in the Institute?

I was essentially looking at, er, erm, social services and, er, the provision of care to Black and Minority Ethnic communities. Erm, I carried out, er, a report. I’d done two studies: one was, er, er, postal survey of, or all social services departments in England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland; erm, and the other was a more in-depth study of, er, which looked at three different types of authority, erm, to try and understand what work that we were doing and what was working. ‘Cos then in some senses we, we know why things don’t work. What’s more interesting is to understand why things do work, and whether or not that can be replicated elsewhere.

Mmm.

And, and that then built, built, built on with, with lots of other work over the years, so… Er, we carried out a study of, er, the use of family centres, which was the frist time, er, any attempt had been made to understand how family support was impacting Black and Minority Ethnic communities. Erm, we followed that up with work looking at, er, young disabled Black and Minority Ethnic communit-, er, people, and their experience of independence and independent living, for the first time ever anybody had sort of looked at that group, and, er, published a hopefully very important study. That was very soon studied by the biggest study on, erm, quality of life for Black and Minority Ethnic older people funded by the ESRC, which ran from, erm, 1999 to, to 2003.

Wow. Was there, sort of, support from above for these, erm, initiatives?

What do you mean with that?

From a sort of broader political, erm…

It was variable. Erm, we were still operating within the context of a Conservative government that often denied the, that racial inequality, but, even if the accepted it existed, erm, were reluctant to take any, any initiatives to, to, to address it. Erm, having said that we were able to still carve out, erm, not only work, but also, erm, how, how things could change and work with the partners that were willing to work with us to bring about that, that change.

Mmm.

Particularly at a, in, in local government, and, more latterly, with, with the health service.

So when you joined the Race Foundation, what sort of for was it in?

‘Race Equality Foudnation’.

Race Equality Foundation, sorry.

Sorry?

Wh-what, what form was the organisation in?

The, erm, it was part of the National Institute for Social Work at that time; w-we were called the REU, erm, to when I joined there were only three of us, erm, a chief executive, myself, and then Hannah, an administrator. Erm, and I did some of the, some of r-research work that I mentioned earlier to you was done at that time.

Where were your offices based?

We were in Mary Ward House, which is in, er, er, erm, just the other side of Euston, erm… Quite close to Woburn Place.

So how did your work, erm, with the Race Equality Foundation sort of bring you into contact with SubCo or what became SubCo?

We were, as I said, we were always interested in not only wasn’t working—erm, we documented that quite well—but what was working and why it was working. And, er, particular area of concern for us was what was happening to the aging population, erm, certainly back in 1991, the aging population in Black and Minority Ethnic communities was comparatively small. I think the census suggested that it was something like a hundred-and-sixty-, hundred-and-eighty-thousand people from the new commonwealth in Pakistan, or people who could be described as Black and Minority Ethnic who were over the age of over sixty. And very few of them were over the age of seventy. Erm, the majority of services, even at that time, were, were not being provided to that age group; they tended to be provided to people over the age of seventy and so on, so they were almost all essentially from Britain’s white communities, yet if you looked at, er, er, ill-health, levels of ill-health for that generation of older people it was an experience for a much younger age, so a number of studies (including our own work) showed that, you know, people finding challenges with daily living at the age of fifty-five that white older people were experiencing at sixty-five and over. Erm, and that pattern’s repeated across the world with migrants, you know, and that, that… The process of migration itself has a weathering impact, so ill-health in later life is much higher. But, also, the experience of discrimination compounds that, that process of migration. Erm, we were struggling to, to find examples of any services that worked. So one study that I did, I talked to people in Nottingham… And anyway, we came across an older Caribbean man who, who had had two strokes, and the second stroke had left him so incapacitated that his elderly wife couldn’t look after him at home, and he ended up in residential care on discharge from hospital, and after two days of being in the residential home he said to, erm, his social worker that he need-, he wanted to go home, and she asked him why, and he said, ‘Well, I’d rather be dead at home than spend another day here.’ And, while that might be in some eyes seen as an extreme example, the example I met throughout, that the supportive services that were meant to be there—such as residential care, such as home care—weren’t really reaching out to Black and Ethnic Minority communities. So, even simple straightforward things, such as the provision of, er, erm, meals, er, that were, erm, either culturally or religiously appropriate… Many places struggled to, erm, either provide them, or just didn’t think that it was necessary to do. So when you came across organisations such as SubCo and what SubCo were trying to do in the day centre, and, er, how they were operating and so on… Erm, it was important for us to understand whether it was working, and, if it was working, what was it doing that was good. Erm, er, so we spent, er, erm, a lot of time with Taskin and colleagues over the years, as well as talking to a number of service users over the years as well, who not only helped us understanding what worked and why it worked, but then also helped us with other things as well. So, the quality of life study that we did in the late ‘90s and early ‘00s, er, the pilot work was done with, er, older people from SubCo. We ran through the questionnaires with them, and revised them accordingly and so on. Erm, some of the actual interviews in the end were done with, done with people from SubCo as well, so…

So did your research take the form of, sort of, going in and visiting the day centre, and talking to…?

Yeah. Erm, I recall being there at least five or six occasions, er, erm… it got to the point where, er, a couple of people, I recognising knew regularly, er… my sister used to live round the corner from, from SubCo as well, and, on a number of occasions would be there on a Saturday, and I’d see her as well. Erm, and then importantly, er, lots of things started to change, and, er, and the way services were being commissioned was changing, you know, SubCo was going to be moved from receiving a grant to having to compete for contracts and so on. And we had lots of those discussions with them as well as the how they were going to manage that, and how they were going to cope and so on.

There must’ve been quite a lot of worry, presumably, with such a change.

It was a hugely, hugely problematic, er, occurrence, not the least because the, erm, the majority of commissioners hadn’t thought through the implications of what they were doing. Erm, a key driver for, erm, the, the commissioning process was to cut costs, and one of the way that lots of people assumed was to cut costs was to, erm, er, er, issued contracts that were of scale, therefore, you know, if, if you delivered a large contract there would be economies you could make. Now, erm, providing, er, day care to, to two-thousand people, erm, is not something that SubCo could do on its own, so it, for it to compete with some of the contracts that may’ve been issued would’ve been an impossibility, not least that they would’ve never been able to, erm, er, meet the, er, the, er five actual criteria. It was, er, a comparatively small organisation; no local authority would take the risk of awarding a huge contract to an agency that has no track record of, of delivering at that scale. Erm, but commissioners hadn’t thought it through at all; their view was that, anyway, we’re here to get value for money for, for the local authority. Erm…

So how did that impact SubCo’s provision?

There wasn’t… I think they got to a point where it was actually very difficult. And I think if it hadn’t, from my memory, if it hadn’t been for them securing lottery money and so on it would’ve been, er, very difficult for them, for SubCo to, to have survived. I might be misrepresenting the situation, but it was certainly my memory of, of, er, how things were going with that, er… There was a period where it was very, very difficult.

Mmm.

Er, but then it was very difficult for lot, lots of organisations, and there was very little recognition that, not only the unique nature of their provision, but also the catalytic impact of their provision. Erm…

Could you explain what you mean by that a little more please?

Well in lots of mainstream services, they had a one size fits all approach: ‘This is what we do’, erm, ‘And it doesn’t matter if you’re six foot tall, or four foot tall, you have to fit in to what we do.’ Erm, and if you don’t fit in then, there was, really, often a suggestion that, actually, it was your fault, rather than our service not being good enough, or our service not meeting your needs. Whereas SubCo and another of others were able to demonstrate how much you could do differently, and not only differently you could do it well. And therefore the, the ability for mainstream providers to say, well, erm, you know, ‘We’re doing a good enough job!’ was challenged: ‘Actually you’re not doing a good enough job! There are other ways of doing it.’ Equally, if you don’t do it better, people will vote with their feet and go, go elsewhere, I suppose.

Mmm.

I think there was, there was… it acted like there was a bit of a catalyst as well, erm…

So did…

And, certainly, one of the things we did, we, we, we produced a, er, practice guide on working better with, er, Black and Minority Ethnic older people in the very early years of the labour government, I think in 1999, and that was, had some, you know, involvement in it, and, gave prominence to what SubCo were doing and how they were doing it. So lots of people after we—in London but also elsewhere—saw that, actually, you could do things differently.

Mmm. Did, erm, the sort of change from Conservative to Labour government make things any easier, or was it still…

Certainly I think, er, there was more money available, you know, not necessarily it was certainly available to address inequality, er, or racial inequality should I say, erm… Too often the focus was on, on socio-economic inequality. And I think some, some in Labour, and I think it’s true to this day that, actually, if you address socio-economic inequality, all the other inequalities will be addressed as well, whereas the, the experience across the world is that, actually that’s not the case. While social, socio-economic inequality does have an impact, erm, without specifically addressing racism, er, you may well find that, erm, it not only persists, but things may get worse, and the ‘Breaking the Cycle’ report in, in 2006, which looked at all the various initiatives that Labour had taken, particularly area-based initiatives, such as the ‘New Communities’ programme and so on, while it had had an impact in addressing socio-economic inequality, there were particular groups that hadn’t benefitted, or certainly hadn’t benefitted to the extent that they should’ve done, and Black and Minority Ethnic communities was one of the ones that they identified, and, er, erm, not, not, not benefitted. Erm, and then, you know, we’d always argued that, you know, you needed both: you needed the general approach, but you needed the specific approach as well because that was the way to, to, to bring about change.

Mmm.

So yes, there was more money in the, in the ‘00s, but, erm, there, it was still a struggle to, to focus on racial inequality. And people often talk about, you kow, the golden era with the publication of McPherson, and Race Relations Amendment Act of 2000 and so on, but, but I’m not, I’m not sure it was necessarily a golden era, erm… I think the challenges XXXX [00:33:49] slightly different XXXX [00:33:52] with, er, erm, erm, with some ministers, erm, the, the battle was still as, as, as challenging as others. David Blunkett never, never saw racial inequality as being a key issue, erm, therefore when he took a role at the Home Office, when he was Health Minister and so on, it was always a challenge to get him to pay attention.

Would you mind explaining a bit more about the context and detail of the McPherson Report, please?

Oh, McPherson was the inquiry launched by, by the newly arriving Labour government into the death of Stephen Lawrence, which tried to look at, er, why nobody’d been, er, convicted as a, as a result of the investigation. And McPherson reported not only into the investigation, but also the, the culture that was prevalent in, in the Metropolitan Police. Erm, and it gave a definition to ‘institutional racism’, which actually was around before then as well, erm… But, erm, it appearing in a government report and Jack Straw’s response from the Home Office, not only accepting elements of the report, but launching the bill that eventually led to the Race Relations Amendment Act, erm, gave, er, er, legislative force to, erm, to a new focus on, on racial inequality.

Erm, just to back-track a bit, did you have any sort of first impressions from when you went to SubCo?

Erm, the challenge with all small organisations was the, the level of demand in the, the ability to actually meet, meet, meet the need as a day care centre. That’s what I experienced was, er, you know, clearly very, erm, very well used, and people being very responsive. There were other challenges of whether or not, er, the Muslim comm-, the local Muslim community, the local Hindu community got on well enough, and the local Sikh community got on well enough to all being attending the same, the same centre. But they seemed to manage it. Erm, it seemed to, seemed to work. Erm, it was a, er, erm, very small centre, and, and you consider the size of the Asian community in and around Green Street, it was, erm, you did wonder whether it was big enough to meet the needs of the local community, though [Inaudible – fault in recording] was well used while, while we visited it.

Did the scale, sort of, allow a more personal approach which helped in their provision, do you think, or was it…?

It may. It may have had that effect. Er, there’s always a tension, isn’t there, between whether or not it’s, it’s the actual, er, workers who create that, or whether or not it’s, er, the, the institution itself. Erm, erm, certainly wh9le we were visiting SubCo, it had some, some very good workers who clearly had a very strong rapport with the, erm, their staff… their service users. Erm, and you’d hope that’s an indication of how the organisation is operation, not just, just the individuals it employs.

Mmm.Do you remember what sort of particular intitatives they were working on at that period?

Erm, I, as I said, the thing that I had most experience of was, was the day-care service they were providing, particularly the luncheon club and its use. I remember turning up often just before the lunch club was about to happen, or just after it had happened [Laughs] so you know, clear, clearly very well used. Erm, clearly very well… And as I said, we ran the pilot of our quality of life, so we were with a number of, er, people, who used the service as well, so that gave us an opportunity to talk to them about what they did and didn’t get, erm, from the service. And one of the uissues was about the social support, particularly from other older people, erm, because I think, er, one of the issues that emerges and emerged from our our biggest service was that, er, while lots of older people, particularly from the Asian community, lived with, erm, with family members, erm, there was a sense that, er, the tension, that what thhe families were doing was meeting their physical needs rather than necessarily meeting their emotional needs, and therefore there was certainly a sense of isolation and loneliness. SubCo not only provided the opportunity to have a good meal and so on, but to meet other people in similar situations. And we know that’s, that’s a key driver to well-being in lots of people’s lives.

Yeah. Was there sort of attention being payed to isolation and loneliness back then, because it, it seems like, in the current climate, that’s a, a bit of a hot topic at the moment?

Yeah. Er, we, we… What’s that phrase? ‘Every generation rewrites, er, history in its own image’. We rewrite phrases as well, you know? Sadly describe, described loneliness. I don’t doubt works that’s now taking place on loneliness and its impact on the brain, and on your, and on your physical health is, is actually groundbreaking and has given us a new, nerw undesranding on the value of, of social support, erm, however that shouldn’t get us away from the fact that we, we’ve known for a very long time that, er, people who are isolated have poorer health, erm, and have various poorer incomes including, erm, lower life expectancy and so on. Erm, so, certainly, social isolation was, was very well renknowned and a key issue in why people wanted to come to centres when they were having meals delivered to them at home. Not to say that that wasn’t, wasn’t still being done, but the value of centres was, erm, was keenly recognised in, in SubCo, but also by, by many others.

Mmm. Erm,I think you mentioned your sister lived close to the centre; were you, had you sort of been to the area before you worked there?

Green Street is a… I never worked for SubCo…

Did your research there, sorry.

Erm, Green Street, er, certainly since the 1980s has become a very popular Asian shopping centre, and also I’d been going there for some years before I knew and got engaged with SubCo.

Mmm. Erm [Pause] what, what, erm, what as your relationship with the SubCo staff like through your period of research.

Well, I was trying to remember before you came, I was trying to remember. ‘cos I remember there being three people that we regularly engaged with. Taskin was one of them, and then there was an Asian woman and an Asian man, and for the life of me I can’t remember their names [Laughs] XXXX [00:42:49]. I was hoping that I’d, I’d remember before you came, but I, I still can’t. Erm, but they were always very supportive, er, of the work that we were doing, and hopefully they found that we were supportive of the work they were doing. Erm, whether or not it, er, it felt like that on their side is obviously a question that only they can answer. Erm, erm, but we were all very pleased with, with what they did for us, and the op-, opportunities they provided us to access some of their service users, and they still do to this day,

Erm, so what’s the ongoing work, then, that the Race Equality Foundation undertakes with SubCo?

Well, er, there’d been a couple of occasions of late that we’ve, we’ve tried to engage some of the older people in the work. We’re doing a lot of work around dementia now, and, er, I think it’s the, it’s a hopefully, erm, as, as the community’s have aged, and as SubCo has started to recognise that as an issue as well, it’s, er, it’s something we’ll carryon, carry on working with. The issue of personalisation keeps coming up, and how personalisation is actually an impact on… How it’s working with Black and Ethnic Minority communities, it con-0, continues to be an issue, and I suspect SubCo is facing the same challenges that, that we are in trying to understand what works, and how we can do everything better.

Mmm. As well as, erm, sort of increasing attention to dementia, what other service needs have changed in the, sort of, older Asian community?

Er, I think, er, what’s clear is that, er, those communities that arrived in, in post Second World War, and up to the early-1970s, are, er, seeing significant change; one of which is that, er, erm, the suburbanisation of minority communities is taking place. XXXX [00:44:56] er, younger generations are moving into out further afield from where the original settlements were. The place I know best, Walthamstow, is now seeing people moving to places like Chingford and Leytonstone, and Woodford Green and so on: places that, certainly when I was wrong, would’ve never considered to be, er, appropriate, or, or, that’s happened. But what seems to also be occurring is that the older generation, that, when the people all arrived then lived in the first instance continued to live in those areas. So there are a lot still in Walthamstow, still around Green Street. And there’s a change taking place, that there aren’t as many young people living with, with older people, and I think that we’re, we’re minority communities from within that census evidence are developing very similar patterns. So, while there aren’t a huge number of minority people over the age of eighty-five, those that are have a very similar living arrangements to their white counterparts: they’re more likely to be living in pensioner only households, and more so they’re more likely to be just living on their own as well, erm, which is very similar to their white counterparts. And we know that those people, pensioner only households and people living on their own, are the ones often most in need of support, as it were. Erm, so and I think that’s, that’s true, increasingly true of minority communities as well. The one chang-, difference in London is that, erm, London is experiencing a huge housing crisis, and, erm, which is, erm, er, forcing more and more people to try and live in less and less space. And whether or not that means we’ll see arising multi-generational households I’m not sure; it’s certainly something we’re investigating at the moment with a colleague of ours from Coventry university analysing the census data again to try and understand XXXX [00:47:08] er, household formation. But as I said, up until, erm, erm, certainly even, er, 2010, there was a move towards suburbanisation. But it meant, also, that older people were being left in the areas that they’d originally settled in.

Mmm.

Erm, and that may have been leading to greater experience of isolation and…

Er, I don’t think I have any more questions, so if you have anything else that you’d like to share, or that you think is relevant, or any further memories of SubCo…

Obviously I’ve not talked about eating the food there [Laughs]

[Laughs]

It was always, the valuable thing was even when you heard some very distrwessing stories, and certainly I remember talking to one very old woman whose family life was very problematic, and the treatment at the hands of her son were, were, deeply depressing, erm, XXXX [00:48:28] also had the opportunity to then watch them all, er, having their lunch and so on, and the lifting effect that that had on everybody’s spirits was, was valuable and worth remember.

Was the food good at the centre?

Er, it always was, it always was! [Laughs]

[Laughs]

It always was.

Excellent.

Freshly made and so on, so it was always good.

Excellent, well, erm, thank you for your time, Jabeer, it’s been really interesting talking to you.

Thank you.

The End

Not to be used without copyright.

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Jabeer Butt

Project: Growing Old Gracefully - SubCo

Date of interview: 03/05/2018

Language: English

Venue: Race Equality Foundation

Name of interviewer: Francis Ball

Length of interview: 49:07

Transcribed by: Francis Ball

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_07

2018_esch_GrOG_08

2018_esch_GrOG_08

Name of interviewee: Barry Mussenden

Project: Growing Old Gracefully - SubCo

Date of interview:

Language: English

Venue: SubCo

Name of interviewer: Francis Ball

Length of interview: 58:51

Transcribed by: James King

-----------

Okay so it’s the eleventh of May and I’m interviewing Barry Mussenden at the Department of Health and Social Care, umm for the SubCo project. Barry, would you mind giving me your date of birth please?

So, eighth of February nineteen sixty six.

Excellent, and where were you born?

In London.

What, what sort of- what part of London?

So I was born in Acton, West London – although I grew up in South London in the early years, yeah.

So, umm, were you presumably your family were based in the South of London?

Yeah, that’s right. So erm, my Dad erm, came from Jamaica in the nineteen fifties, and married an English woman and we ended up living in South London. But um, I studied in East London and ended up settling in East London so… lot of my early career was based in Newham and I was living in Tower hamlets at the time, so I’ve kind of got East End connection as well.

Mhm. Where were you studying?

Um, I don’t even know what it’s called now, but at the time it was called City of London Polytechnic. And so, based around Aldgate at the time I lived in Whitechapel. Yeah…

Umm, did you like er, the East End, sort of east side of London.

I… I found a real connection with it and ended up sort of living and working there for many years so err, erm… It’s got a, quite a unique character about it. Erm, and although I was sort of living in the borough of Tower Hamlets and working in Newham it just felt that the east end didn’t really drew- draw many dividing lines other than when it was sort of, which local authority you were dealing with yeah.

Yeah. So um, what did you study at university, and then what did you go on to do after?

So sociology and social psychology. Umm, and er, I wanted to get involved in some kind of community work or community development work coming out of uni’. So having studied in east London I began volunteering in Newham for an organisation called Newham Monitoring Project that worked round racial harassment and policing at the time. Erm, and I ended up becoming a worker at NMP as it was known. Erm, so my initial work sort of post uni’ was kind of around social justice campaigning and dealing with those sort of issues, but I- I began to get more involved in the sort of social care side of things as well, and there was a erm, a black community project called One Love project that erm, I joined the management committee of and was involved in that was erm, less- it… partially looking at elders but more looking at provisionally young people so erm, erm training opportunities for people who were not in work and education, some kind of youth projects, summer projects, things like that… Erm, so yeah I got involved in kind of like just local east end community activity.

Excellent. Um, do you mind if we sort of back track a bit and talk about your time in NMP?

Mm.

Umm, would- did you have any sort of personal experiences growing up of discrimination that drew you towards that sort of social justice…?

So, a bit personally but I wouldn’t say that it was my personal experience necessarily that drew me towards it. I think I got off pretty lightly on that front ‘cos were quite tough times growing up in the seventies and eighties. Erm… erm, but I think it was partly erm, studying in East London I kind of like, seeing you know… I didn’t feel very privileged at the time but you know [laughs] looking back I probably was quite- we used to get a full grant, no uni fees and so on. But just seeing the sort of depth of poverty in east London, and it being butted up side by side with the city. So, you know what, I was studying in Aldgate, literally you walk five minutes one direction you’re in really deprived east London, five minutes the other you’re in big tall glass towers you know, and this again was the eighties when there was you know, it was a big making money culture in the city erm, so the contrast grated with me quite a bit so I sort of had a lot of interest in heading east and working with the people that weren’t doing so well, yeah.

Yeah. Umm, what projects were you involved with at Newham Monitoring?

Er, so err… Quite a, quite a few erm, campaigns that were around erm, racial harassment from the police, racist murders, umm which were not uncommon at the time. Erm, er policing cases where you had deaths in custody or erm, what we felt were erm, unfair prosecutions of erm, people who hadn’t committed a crime. So, it was kind of a combination of case work where we give them advice, support, counselling… and erm, campaigning as well, sort of we sort of draw our issues that arise from different cases to try and pick up on themes and kind of campaign around those themes. So, er in the end although it happened south of the river, the most prominent campaign we became involved in was Stephen Lawrence family campaign when he was murdered in 1993. So erm… I remained involved in that family sort of campaign throughout the years up to now. Erm, as I say that, although that wasn’t in Newham, that was actually in Greenwich south- south of the river, but I was involved in many other sort of similar but less, less high profile but similar cases at the time. So I had a mixture of a sort of work around err, umm that kind of social justice in terms of erm, black and minority ethnic community experience with the criminal justice system, and experience of erm, racial harassment. And then, in parallel looking at er, issues to do with what provision we had by way of care and support services in the community, particularly for older people – that’s where my connection with SubCo began to arise, yeah.

Excellent. Umm, you mentioned also working on the One Love project-

Yeah.

-Subsequently to that. Umm, what sort of training and opportunities were you providing to the young people?

A lot of it was actually just basic skills around so, I mean these were in the early days of IT, not nowadays when everyone’s got a smart phone. Actually there was a lack of familiarity with IT and getting access to computer was pretty tough . People didn’t have home PCs in those days. Um, and so we were able to secure funding to set up a computer suite and to run free of charge training on basic um, Microsoft packages. We weren’t getting into coding and that side of things, it was much more kind of just how you use… Essentially, using IT in the workplace to skill people up better to get into roles in kind of office based environment. So that wasn’t the sole focus but that was you know, quite a key one because we were finding that young people leaving erm, local schools not with great results, not necessarily going on to Higher of Further Education, and this was a kind of a bit of a supplement to… So although we didn’t use the phrase NEETs at the time, which we now call Not in Employment Education or Training, was a kind of like the target group really. Er, a disproportionate number of whom were black. Erm, and then there was also erm, sort of child care facilities that were alongside that, so single mums wanting to get back into the workplace and so on could have their kids cared for while they were you know, training so there was that sort of project really. As it happens it was, I think it was just across the road from Sub Co but erm [Laughs] So erm, yeah it was a good project.

Yeah, um did you sort of receive support from the council and local government when you were running these sort of things?

Yeah, yeah so… In fact, umm there was council funding that wasn’t that hard to secure in the end, so erm, I’m gonna come on to what I think was going on there at the time, but we were able to secure a funding, even the premises was based in an old school building which the council basically secured and then let to the organisation. And similarly I mentioned Newham Monitoring Project earlier, an MP, we had erm, err, a council-owned building then that we were based in, alongside a couple of other community projects, one that was giving immigration welfare advice. And I think one actually originally was a small room for Sub Co before they got their proper building set up. So, although actually we used to press the council quite hard for, you know, better investment within the local community, erm, you know we still got a kind of degree of support that I think you’d struggle to get these days, yeah.

Yeah. And what was the community uptake like and the sort of erm, reaction to the schemes that you were running?

Very good to the point of amazing, so erm, in erm, I mean the One Love Centre was heavily used as I said, particularly associated with the Caribbean community. Er, our centre, Newham Monitoring Project was based at a centre called the 382 Centre, cos it was 382 Catherine Road, and it was basically just a community centre that er, had a, it was previously a shop so it had kind of like a shop front that served as a reception, and the reception was often completely packed so I think, particularly for local councillors popping in and seeing all those local people sitting using the services gave us a bit of weight and clout to think right, we better take these people seriously. But it’s because they were able to access services in community languages erm, from people that were foreign from within their own community too. So, this probably predates Sub Co to an extent, but it was- it- I think it was a reflection of what was going on in the community at the time. So I’m talking about initiatives that were all erm, community self-organised, so they came from the grassroots. It’ not that the council wanted to introduce a scheme and here, communities got together and organised this stuff then went to the council for support. And erm, in those days, I think funding was available, some of it came from what was then the old GLC, Greater London Council, and then into the local council, so you know we were still cash strapped, but we were getting core funding from the local authority, yeah.

So not sort of chasing funding.

Yeah. So you’d go to, whereas now you’d probably have to go to a whole, you know, you’d be contracting and going to a whole plethora of different funders to try and get your sums that are done there, we were able to get core funding from the council, and you top it up with other particular project funding, but you’re kind of, your core building costs, staff costs were covered in that way.

Yeah. Erm, do you have any sort of, particularly proud memories or moments from er your work with those two centres?

I mean, so we erm, in a way the greatest pride comes from more the day to day support we were able to provide local people. Just receiving that thanks, we were always getting flooded with letters of thanks and appreciation. So although there were some more standout moments that were more high profile, so when for instance we were campaigning around a death in custody and you know, managed to support a family to take it to an inquest to get verdict of unlawful killing, which was kind of quite a major thing in those days, wasn’t very often that a, regardless of the circumstances of a death like that you know, you’d struggle to get that sort of verdict, so I think you know, we had some kind of symbolic victories like that, didn’t bring anyone back to life, but just in terms of sort of challenging the status quo. But like I said I’m probably more proud of the sort of day to day provision that communities themselves were able to pull together. Most of this was voluntary effort you know, through some of the funding we secured you know we managed to obtain some salaried workers, but a lot of it came from voluntary effort from local people.

Yeah. Umm, how well established were the organisations when you joined, I mean had they been going round for a while or…?

Yeah. Um, so Newham Monitoring Project was set up in 1980, following the murder of a young man called Akhtar Ali Baig. Err, so that I think initially erm, secured sort of GLC funding and then eventually council funding. Erm, One Love a few years after that sort of mid-eighties, so by the time I was getting involved in the late eighties they were already well established organisations. And so I began just by sort of volunteering my time and then gradually in One Love’s case joining the management committee. In Newham Monitoring Project I became a worker myself, a paid worker for a period of time and then eventually a management committee member, so yeah. These were organisations that erm, had, you know, were already well established. I think the, the difference I’d draw and we’ll come on to this when we talk about Sub Co, is they had a greater focus on young people. The community itself was younger, so NMP, although it was there to support the whole community, often times the racist attacks were on young people in the street, the police harassment, you know, a lot of that was of young people. One Love was particularly, not solely, but particularly focusing on providing opportunities for young people. Erm, and I think it was more the kind of awareness that you also had an Asian community, those were the younger ones but you had longer standing members of the community, their parents effectively, who were now coming to you know, well beyond retirement age and the provision for them was much more lacking. So you’d have sort of activism that’d created, you know, quite a strong community infrastructure particularly facing towards young people. And then you had a whole generation coming through where there wasn’t really a great deal of provision for them. Erm, and that’s where I think I began to sort of turn my attention to that side of things as well. And, and we- a number of organisations came together to form something that was called the Newham Black and Ethnic Minority Community Care Forum, quite a mouthful but essentially it wasn’t a- it was a collective of organisations all involved in care in one form or another. And erm, it, so each was you know, kind of got on with providing its own, erm, discrete services, but just to come together to lobby or raise the profile, raise awareness of the kind of collective issues that the community were facing. The aging , our elders as we used to refer to them, the kind of, the- the post retirement section of the community, the kind of challenges they were facing that individual organisations were picking up but we sort of used erm, Newham Black and Ethnic Minority Community Care Forum as a way of bringing a stronger collective voice, so One Love was a member of that forum, NMP was a member of that forum and that’s how I first got involved, and I eventually became the chair of that forum.

Wow.

I think you, you’ve interviewed Babu Bhattacherjee?

That’s right, yeah.

Who, he was subsequently a chair of that forum as well beyond my days, but erm, I became a chair of that forum. So that, erm was very much more involved in sort of articulating the needs of older people in the community, which we didn’t feel we had so well served.

Yeah, erm, before we come on to your work as a chair with the forum, would you mind explaining the difference between your role as a worker and also your role as a sort of management on the board at One Love and at NMP?

So the, as a worker you know you- you’re contractually employed by the organisation, you’re receiving a salary, erm but obviously you’ve got that kind of fixed responsibility to deliver in your role. As a, on a board member, an unpaid role – it’s all voluntary, but actually you’re legally responsible and accountable for that organisation so erm, you know in terms of governance er, charitable status, erm, company status you’re, you’re still volunteering for the organisation but you’re actually carrying quite a bit of managerial responsibility, and many of the people that comprise the board are, are just those of the local committee that have been active in trying to get an organisation together. So, you know, what you can sometimes lack is the kind of professional expertise that would come with a er, you know, imagine the company board. So I think in time we had to be a bit more proactive in kind of recr-, creating a board, a management committee it’s often called, that, yes, was routed in the local community, but you had someone with an accounting background, you had some with a bit of legal background around the table so you can draw on some of that. So it, it’s sometimes sort of treat the management committee as yeah they’re kind of volunteering their time, they’re meet and so on, but actually there’s a really important governance role that that committee has, er that we used to kind of carry out yeah.

Yeah. And presumably when you were chair of the forum you drew on your sort of experiences and skills?

Yeah, yeah.

Um, so what can you remember any of the other organisations that were part of the forum? I mean, was it big or…?

No I mean, it was very big and some of them had quite discrete roles, so organisations such as the Newham Asian Women’s Project, now that wasn’t particularly focused on older people actually but a core part of their service was running a refuge for women escaping domestic violence, and they had other advice and support services for Asian women as part of that. So erm, not- there were, I forget the precise names now but there were sort of carer/support organisations for people caring for relatives at home. Erm, in- there were some kind of community specific day care centres. Some of them were based- faith-based organisations so, you know, a kind of arm of the mosque or the temple or the gurdwara or the church that was providing some voluntary care erm, may not necessarily be a kind of formal constitutive voluntary organisation in its own right but was providing care. So it was quite a broad network, a mixture of the quite you know, formal erm, legal entities, funded organisations and slightly more informal care that was going on in the community, so it was- I can’t rattle off a list of these [Laughs] – but it was quite a broad membership. Yeah, yeah.

And what did the role of erm, chair of the forum involve?

So it, it facilitated convening meetings where we’d come together to share information and concerns and erm, largely speaking then acting as an interface with the social services department, local councils to say- to draw on common themes that are coming up across organisations. So it wasn’t there to lobby on behalf of one particular organisation or another, or even one particular section of the community, but just to sort of draw together issues erm, across the piece about- essentially the difficulties that communities were facing you know, in the care environment particularly around elders. I mean, there were some young people with issues as well, but principally around the kind of issues being faced by older people, yeah.

So, would you collect these themes together and present them to the council or did the council have people that came to the meetings?

So we would invite, so I’m trying to remember now, yeah we did have a, the council had a umm, a lead on race equality. When I said the council had many lead on racial equality but sorry, the social services department… I forget the exact job title but an officer who erm, erm lead on race equality, he used to attend those meetings as a kind of interface so, you know, we might also invite in a particular officer or official erm, or even councillor that might be relevant to a topic we wanted to discuss, and sometimes the director of social services. I think you interviewed erm, Deborah Cameron?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah so she was director of social services at the time, and I have to credit her, she would come along you know fronting out even when there was criticism, erm. So you know we, we had that kind of more routine erm, connection in to the council to the social services department through that particular official, but more generally we you know erm, I think we didn’t find it difficult to engage the council. Whether we then agreed on everything was a different matter but we weren’t stonewalled so you know, if you sought a conversation you would get one. You might agree to disagree at the end of it but, so we never, we always thought we had access into social services and a wider council, yeah.

Yeah. You mentioned that err Deborah listened to criticism as well, I mean did you have any particular criticisms or things that you wanted to present to the council that could be done better?

Yeah, I mean… I think we had an overarching criticism in particular, that we were quite sort of forceful in making, in that , you know and we, we, remember we ended up writing a report erm, it’s not online, it’s sort of paper copies but erm, I think we called it erm, Black Communities Care. And by black we meant it in inclusive sense of Asian, African, Caribbean. Erm, and it was, it was just trying to summarise the critique we had of what was lacking here and, and I suppose what I’d distil it down to is err, although social services still felt pressured at the time, looking, comparing it to now actually we were reasonably well resourced. You know, you could access home care, day care, erm residential care in a way that’s um, much more rationed now because the demand is so much more, and within that aging population now demand is a lot greater. In those days actually, it, it you know, there was a greater availability of care. And our critique was that although those services, many of which were council rum, erm were open to all, they were one size fits all. So they’re open to everybody but basically what you got is what you got, and erm, there tended to be you know, a lack of provision of speakers of other community languages, certainly in terms of kind of like what might be on offer on the menu and so on didn’t really respond to community needs and preferences at all. And I think there was still a kind of a, although I wouldn’t put Deborah Cameron in this category, but there was still a kind of overhang of a sense within social services more generally that these communities care for their own. So we know they’re there, but they kind of look after themselves through their religious organisations or within the family, within the extended family, there’s big extended family infrastructure, so emotionally therefore these are communities that tend to care for their own, if they want to access the mainstream division it’s there for them. And erm, rather than thinking about how do we, erm develop culturally appropriate tailored services to meet their needs, and how we are being proactive in engaging those communities to assess what those needs are, so I think that was our kind of overarching critique and within that there’s all different individual issues and recommendations we came up with. Erm, and er, I think that posed quite a challenge to a council that actually liked to think of itself as being you know, very progressive and responsive to be challenged back and saying ‘well actually what you’re offering doesn’t really meet the communities and what you’re really doing is relying on communities that look after themselves’. Erm, so that was erm, I mean I’m talking now of a period around 1990 that was a sort of challenge we were putting back into the, into social services and we were trying to sort of like raise the profile of that as broadly as we could. I think there’s something I would say in parallel to all of this, just in terms of my take on what was going on at the time, ‘cos I’m couching this in terms of what the council didn’t do, or needed to do or where we challenged them but I think within our communities itself, it was also quite a critical juncture. Just in the history of what, post-war Black and Asian settlement in the UK, in particularly in East London, ‘cos my take on it is that, when you had that post-war settlement from like fifties, sixties, seventies and the eighties, and particularly had a very diverse community build up in Newham. There was still a sense of, of erm, especially people coming from Commonwealth countries, that you were coming to the UK or coming to London to better yourself, to provide better opportunities for your family and ultimately to go home, whether their home was Pakistan, India or Bangladesh, the Caribbean… Here, you know, erm work hard, erm make a better life for you and your family and then re- you know, look forward to retiring back home. And I think the period we’re talking about, around that kind of early nineties, was when the realisation was really firmly setting in that erm Britain was home and very few people were retiring back home whether that was true people who originated from the Caribbean or South Asia. I mean very few are retiring home because their families are already settled you know, we’re talking about communities that now have probably lived in the East End for decades. Uh, and so I think although, you know I’m articulating a criticism of perhaps the slowness on the part of the state and the local council and social services to respond to need, I think even in communities it was, it took a while before actually the realisation set in you know what, we’re here to stay and that means we’re gonna out, you know live our lives and die here. And so erm, I think there’d been momentum built up in recognition of the fact that we need to develop more sort of provision for our local, for our own communities erm, who weren’t going anywhere. And so in a sense we were slightly playing catch up on that front as well, erm and then so, you know as much as I’m saying the council needed to develop a better understanding of what the local committee needs were, we to as communities were sort of realising it’s not just all about stopping our young people from being harassed on the street, it’s actually you know, we need to do a better job ourselves of coming together to ensure our, our- the needs of our elders are being met.

Mm.

So that was sort of, the point in time where the forces were conjoining really, yeah.

Umm, do you know, sort of your Dad’s own expectations as a migrant, I mean when he came to this country was he, sort of, planning to settle permanently or to move back?

Erm, I think for him he wasn’t planning to go back. He came from Jamaica and he, he basically said it’s a beautiful island if you got money but he came from poverty and he didn’t really have any strong feelings about it, so I think from his perspective he wasn’t looking to go back to erm, Jamaica but erm, you know many of his peers were, they had the, this sort of idea of ‘right well, I’ll save money and I’ll buy a plot of land and I’ll build my house back in Jamaica and I’ll go back to that when I retire’. So although, erm- and perhaps my Dad because he married an English woman, whereas many of his peers married fellow Jamaican immigrants, maybe that’s why they had more of a sense than he did of ‘oh we might go back one day’. Erm, and they still refer to Jamaica as ‘back home’, or ‘back a’ yard’ as they say. And um, so I think within the Caribbean community there was a similar, I think, expectation that we would go home and then the realisation that I don’t think we’re going anywhere. Erm, in some ways although they face similar challenges err, and often it was through the black churches and so on that day care might be established and so on, it was a little bit easier for those communities to, I use the word integrate, sort of you know access the mainstream provision, because they’re all English language speakers, and although they have different dietary preferences it wasn’t that different, and so you could sort of find a middle ground and I think as a community erm, if you think at that point erm, it was still a majority white community in those areas, of the, the kind of Caribbean elders that might be joining those sorts of services were different but they weren’t that different. So I think it sort of… the services were probably slightly better able to flex to meet some of those needs than they were the Asian community where I think, particularly white elders, found those Asian elders very different, you know and [laughs] so you know, even in terms of how welcoming the atmosphere was. I’m not talking about open hostility, but you wouldn’t really you know, if you were erm, a Pakistani family and mum was now in her seventies, I don’t think you’d envisage ever sending her along to a day centre like that, so I think there was a real drive to say we’ve got to organise stuff for ourselves yeah.

Yeah. Erm, you mentioned the sort of, inclusive notion of erm, blackness. Could you tell me a bit more about sort of how that understanding has evolved and changed?

So I think particularly, although I think it’s probably true nationally, I think especially in East London you had a sense of, when we talk about the black community we didn’t just mean people of African origin, African-Caribbean origin, it- it absolutely was a term that also referred to people from the Indian subcontinent. Erm, south Asians whether Pakistani, Bangladeshi, erm Sri Lankan, Indian – in a way I think the term Black was used in a political sense in the way you might use green to describe environmental or red to describe leftie or whatever, it was sort of a sense of erm, migrant communities, particularly from the commonwealth who were facing similar challenges, you know may have different cultural backgrounds but actually all have a similar experience, particularly of racism in the East End erm, which was bad at the time. So I think that people would associate themselves, so it wasn’t any kind of erm, denial of your own particular ethnicity, and I think people were comfortable to interchange and you know, you could talk about yourself as a Muslim, or as a Pakistani, as an Asian or as Black and kind of use it interchangeably depending on the context. Umm, I think now erm, and partly because the minority ethnic community itself has become so much more diverse, you tend not to get that. So we often use a phrase now, BAME – Black Asian and Minority Ethnic – to try and cover all bases [laughs], but erm there you’re probably more likely to use ‘black’ as a shorthand, so if you’re setting up a day centre for Asian elders you’d call it an Asian elders day centre. But as our forum, it was the Black Community Care Forum, we knew what we meant by black, well we said black and ethnic minority, but basically it’s just meant, you know, that those same communities… So erm, I think yeah – that, that was probably a sign of the times, in terms of the way we used to- the language that was used at the time, yeah.

Umm, what were the particular needs that the err, elders in sort of the black community were facing in the early nineties and eighties?

So partly language was still a major barrier, so although – even more so amongst women than men. So you had erm, you know that kind of immediate barrier of not being fluent in English or perhaps having very little English at all, not being confident in it, and particularly as you’re aging – a kind of tendency to kind of slip back into your ow- your first language so even though there was perhaps in the workplace had been more confident in speaking English as a second language, reaching more advanced years kind of slipping back more into comfort in their kind of first languages, and so that just be one kind of tangible barrier. Erm, and around err, in terms of the kind of caring environment you want to create, just what people’s needs and preferences were, some of it was about just erm, you know being able to socialise with people , you can reminisce and share similar memories – whether it be of India or whatever, erm around erm sort of you know, just the kind of, those cultural things around food and music and so on; what kind of entertainment you want to bring in, erm you know… You know that… just those, if you think about what makes up a nice care environment, particularly for an older person, er you know, I think culture, background plays a big part in that. So it’s not rejection of anyone else’s culture but just sort of recognition of that, that is not just a minor preferences its quite a fundamental need and if you’re not able to address it you’re not really gonna- your service isn’t really one that’s gonna work for people.

Umm, so when did you first come into contact with SubCo or people who had gone to form SubCo?

I think so initially, early days actually, because when they were first beginning to get SubCo off the ground, erm as I said they had a kind of small office in the same community centre we were in when we were trying to get things going then they established their own day centre, and I would erm, because they were quite an active member of the Black and Ethnic Minority Community Care Forum, even before I was chair just in terms of the way we used to network one another. SubCo would often be a place you’d sort of go to meet, sort of get their perspective on some of the issues we were, you know, putting into the council or what have you or campaigning around. So in terms of the kind of erm, people like Taskin, Celene, people that were working there or some of their committee members would have quite a bit of interface with them. And also, if I’m honest with you, just on a social level, because as soon as they got the day centre off the ground, although it was a service there for elders, you know people who sort of registered with that service, they used to sort of, would put on events and activities where the wider community were invited to. So I’d p-pa- I’m happy to pop along and share a bite to eat with them on that level too, so it was you know it was a centre that was catering for a particular need but actually was quite an open environment. It would encourage people in. Err, and so I felt like I had quite a bit of- I was often popping in and out of there for one reason or another. Yeah, but they were- you know, Sub Co was, is establishing its own centre while also being a player in the kind of wider community just around influencing, you know what was happening policy wise and so on.

What, what was the err, atmosphere in the centre like when you go to these events?

Very warm. Very welcoming, you know. I was quite visibly as I stepped through the door not from an Asian background but I couldn’t be welcomed more warmly. In fact sometimes they’d kind of almost go over the top of wanting to you know, ‘oh have you tried this before? Have you tried that?’: couldn’t be more welcoming. It didn’t feel in any way like a- you know sometimes now we talk about erm, erm community cohesion and community isolation and communities kind of separating themselves off from others, although it was a service that’d been developed in order to you know, address those particular erm, cultural needs it absolutely felt like erm, an inclusive environment wanting to connect with other people. So I think whoever you were, whatever background you were from and whatever organisation you were from, I think you’d be- you’d get a welcome reception there. So they, I think they kind of took pride in kind of perhaps exposing others to some of their own sort of culture, rather than necessarily trying to separate themselves off from anybody else. So yeah it was always a nice place to go and am sure it still is. [Laughs]

Yeah, no it is. Erm, do you remember when they sort of got the building set up and, was it easy to get sort of erm, you know a base for a, for an organisation?

Oh what, I wouldn’t go as far to say it was easy, they had to work hard to secure it. Erm, but… I think there was at this point a growing understanding of- by supporting an organisation like Sub Co, you weren’t somehow doing them a favour that they should be sort of, you know, beholden to you. I think there was a kind of recognition of, this is meeting a gap in our local provision. So I think from the council’s perspective, they sort of understood that erm, you know, within the kind of range of local provision, this was dealing with precisely what was lacking. And so it was in the interest to support it, because you could then point to it as something that now locally is, is on offer that wasn’t before. So as I say, I know it took a lot of long, hard work to secure the centre, erm but my sense was they were slightly pushing an open door in the sense of the recognition that this is needed.

Um, you mentioned err, Taskin obviously, were there any other people from SubCo who you met and socialised with?

I mean many, many. I- to be honest with you I can’t roll off all the names – Ranesh was one, erm Jaspin Singh was involved – certain people that erm, yeah I mean, many people and erm, it- it- I think it was a mixture of, some people who had solely got involved in Sub Co, and some people who’d been involved in kind of, community activity in the area more generally and recognised this was the kind of next thing we had to kind of tackle, so when I talked earlier about some of the provision that was there had sort of been developed for younger people, I think there were some of those same individuals recognised that’s only part of what the communities need is. So there were, you know, some kind of more experienced heads who’d had been involved in community activity around slightly different issues that were involved too. Erm, so you know, it felt like it very much felt like a sort of community lead initiative.

Yeah, yeah. Erm, what were you doing professionally at the time?

So at this point now erm, id err, I was still chair of the Black Ethnic & Minority Community Care Forum. I was no longer a worker at NMP, I was working on a project – a London-wide project – erm, called the Black Community Care Project. It was slightly, a slight extension of what I was doing in Newham but across London as a whole. Err, there was an organisation at the time called the London Voluntary Service Council, the LVCS, I think it’s folded now – but they used to support erm, support voluntary action across London and again they had sort of erm, historically been you know, quite homogenous in the activity they supported and were seeking to be more responsive to black community needs as well, so we, we- I was the first person to run this Black Community Care Project they secured funding for. So I still connected into east London with that hat on but my pay job was to work on similar issues across London as a whole. So I got involved in erm, setting up some projects along similar lines to Sub Co actually, erm in other areas of London. Erm, you know, so if you take Newham as a very solidly Labour borough, always has been, always will be I’m sure, erm took a kind of similar approach within Wandsworth which is a very different borough, was a flagship Conservative borough at the time – erm, but it similarly with a very diverse community – and they were quite keen in going, developing similar provision. The way they wanted to go about it was slightly different. Instead of grant-aided it as kind of they wanting contracts, but we were able to work up some projects that used the kind of Conservative preference for kind of contractual approach to still get the same outcome. Err, so that- I was working along these sort of issues erm London-wide really, yeah, yeah.

Erm, would you mind talking a bit more about the difference in funding and how that affected the work you were able to do?

The- so grant funding err, the- having a core grant I think really liberates an organisation in the sense of you know, there’s such an intense pressure on just paying your core costs so, you know, you can’t run a service on any kind of scale without paid workers. Voluntary, volunteers only take you so far. Ultimately you have to have some kind of core work force that, where doing this is their day job. And I, and alongside that you need some kind of base which involves a roof, lights [laughs] heating and so on. So there are core costs which erm, if you can secure a grant to meet, really give you that platform on which to kind of expand a service and maximise a service. And then if you can complement that with you know, other additional project income: great. So that’s the advantage of grants. Erm, the, the flipside that comes with that of course, particularly in those days when it was the council grant you were relying on erm, there’s always going to be strings attached and actually you could be quite beholden to the council then in terms of then how they shape and influence the service you’re providing. So, I think err, you know, it- I began to learn that although actually I think any organisation you know, providing community service like that, if you’re gonna’ have a core grant that’s, you know, unless you’re a really massive organisation, only a small community based one needs that security. But I found, interestingly, contractual opportunities can be made to work to your advantage. Err, if you- if you’re able to erm, manage that on top of a core grant I think if you rely on that alone to run all your services, then basically every contract you enter into you have to create some head room that can, you know, cover your core costs, and especially in more recent years organisations, because they’re trying to reduce your erm, kind of like, the kind of- effectively you know, pull it down to minimal hours and keep them as low as possible, it’s really difficult to build in a margin that helps you cover your core. So I think there’s a lot to be said for having that kind of core grant aided, and it was much more available in those days than it is now. But you can make other funding models work, erm, but I think you just end up having to be really business like about how you cost your service – and you need a critical mass, you need enough people to buy that service, enough councils or other purchases to buy that service to make it viable. Erm, so this is where you end up with organisations that fare well, tend to be ones that operate on big scale, whereas by definition, some of the organisations we’re talking, if you meet a local minority community need, the scales gonna’ be limited so, especially in the kind of modern XXX (39:02) criteria. So I think it’s actually you know, it was tough then and it’s even tougher now.

Mm. Erm, did you notice different community needs across London? Or were they similar to Newham?

It’s funny, it actually made me better appreciate what Newham had going for it. Even though Newham and East London more generally, Tower Hamlets together, you know an especially deprived part of London, an especially deprived part of the country – you really see that deprivation then and now. So even though the kind of social need is even greater than many areas, you also had a sort of erm, community capital, a community infrastructure to draw on, that when I started working in other areas I really noticed the contrast, where you didn’t have such good networks across communities, you had slightly more riv- rivalries maybe too strong a word, but communities were a bit more insular in the way they worked. Mm, I think I might be out of time in this room we might have to move, erm yeah… So erm-

Shall we pause and-

Let’s pause and relocate.

[Recording paused]

So I think I was just saying, I could really see the benefits, the infrastructure that erm, community infrastructure that you had in East London the contrast with other areas where there was much less collaboration between communities, between organisations. So I think we had quite a lot to work off in- in the East End, even though I took it for granted initially at the time, when I saw how it worked in other areas I realised the benefit of that.

Yeah. Umm, I mean did you do any work with SubCo sort of directly involved in their project delivery or was it more sort of collaborative?

Erm, probably more so collaborative, I think err, there might have been some occasions where just a bit of sort of advice on some aspects of the service that they were looking to develop – I’m trying, struggling to think of a hard and fast example now – erm, but err… it- I think it was more just erm, helping to kind of raise the profile of the organisation and erm, you know connecting them into err, others that were doing sort of similar work so yeah what I- certainly wasn’t involved kind of hands on in any of the day care, erm delivering and so on, erm but we did keep well networked in with their workers in particular.

Erm, so obviously they had the day centre and you mentioned food being very important part of social care, erm what other aspects of their work did you think were particularly, sort of valuable?

Really good at reaching into isolated families and communities and individuals, so err, the fact that you know, there was a minibus [laughs] that could pick people up. I think erm, that err, I think this is where you can draw a big distinction with what the sort of generic council offer was. I think with the council, if you went effectively and knocked on their door and said you were in need, umm, certainly then they would seek to respond in some way or another – whether it was completely adequate or not you know, you’d have to wait and see – err, but if you were, if you didn’t come up on their radar that was it you didn’t exist basically, and I think Sub Co was erm, really well placed at just sort of erm, you know they were identifying individuals without the family necessarily coming and knocking on their door reaching in to communities, having an awareness of individuals who were, you know becoming more isolated or becoming more vulnerable or perhaps had worked in the local, locality and retreated back into kind of like isolation in their own homes. So erm, ‘cos it’s not like we’re talking about erm, a context where people can automatically were reaching the older age and putting their hands up to say ‘I want to access the service’. Sometimes they would actually retreat into the corner of their own homes and had to be coaxed out and understood you don’t have to resign yourself to sitting in front of the television, there’s more to life still. So I think they had a real strong kind of outreach ethic and, and just erm, ability and contacts at sort of connecting communities and identifying vulnerable people and coaxing them out, rather than simply responding to the people who were proactive in coming to meet them and find out where they can get a service from, support from.

Yeah. Umm, so do you know roughly when this sort of, central grant funding ended and how that affected your own projects and also Sub Co’s provision?

Yeah it erm, so I don’t know how Sub Co’s funding evolved, but just to give you another example, where I talked earlier about the Newham Monitoring Project, NMP, now that was heavily reliant on a core council grant, erm but part of what that project was about, more so than Sub Co was actually challenging the council and the local police on some of their practice so, you know, erm the project was highly critical of the council for not doing enough to tackle you know, racial harassment in known estates where you had families that were com- you know, experiencing that kind of harassment and the perpetrators were known. And often they made themselves be council tenants, and the council being quite sluggish in actually responding to that, similarly with the police erm, quite sort of slow to take action, to intervene in any effective way when ongoing harassment was taking place. So NMP was quite vocally critical of the council and the police and other authorities in their lack of response to these issues, and I think you know, there was a growing sense in the council that, ‘why are we funding these people to criticise us essentially? I mean yeah they’re delivering a service too and they support families and give advice and legal advice and stuff’, but there was sort of a view within the council that these people are biting the hand that feeds them, ‘because we give them a grant and we seem to get this grief back’. And the police in particular were saying, ‘why are you funding these guys?’, you know. So I think NMP was probably the first very prominent example of an organisation that had its council funding withdrawn essentially because it was being too much of a pain [laughs] a pain in the neck. And you know, a sort of notion of, you know, you know we shouldn’t be providing our funding for them to come and give us a hard time. Erm, NMP actually struggled quite a bit to kind of shift to a new funding model because its- you know, with social care it is, although it’s tough, there is a greater erm, opportunities for contracting your services. People don’t contract that kind of service that’s about issues to do with policing and so on. So I think we went to National Lottery and some other sources but the organisation’s impact was definitely reduced once the council funding was pulled away. Erm, and it didn’t go without a fight, and I think there were five hundred people outside the town hall including members of Sub Co actually, Sub Co elders you know waving their walking sticks saying why are you cutting funding in this organisation? So you know, it was a high profile issue but I think that signalled for me aware the council was more willing to take decisions that were going to be unpopular but just that kind of decoupled it from any kind of funding arrangements for organisations that were giving it a hard time. So that didn’t initially impact on Sub Co, but over time it just pointed to, within local authorities nationally really, and it also accounts budgets being squeezed anyway a sort of, backtracking away from grant funding that I think really did have a big impact across the whole black voluntary sector.

Umm, what year was the grant withdrawn from NMP?

Now let me get this right… Erm, I’m not sure exactly- so it would have been mid-nineties, around ninety-five, I can’t remember off the top of my head erm… let me think: nineteen-ninety-six, ninety-five, mid-nineties, yeah. So erm SubCo had been going for you know, a few years by that point erm, and in the early days I think NMP was the better funded established organisation, they used to lend quite a bit of support to SubCo. I think by this point SubCo used to help out NMP a little bit because you know, even basics like office stationery, if you haven’t got any funding you struggle to do it. So err, umm yeah that was what I, with hindsight, I can now see was a starter but got a gradual tapering off of funding for black voluntary sector, or black and you know, black and Asian voluntary sector at that sort of low, community, grass-roots community level, yeah.

Umm, do you know when NMP sort of, closed shop?

I mean it carried on for a very long time, it only really closed shop, where are we now two thousand and eighteen, maybe a couple of years ago: two-thousand and sixteen, something like that? It carried on for a long time through erm, a combination of some National Lottery money, some- running projects as well, so although you could- you’d struggle to get core funding to sort of run a erm, you know, kind of generic service it provided before, you could get sort of project funding for particular anti-racist projects and so on, so it- it you know, and increasingly relied on volunteers rather than paid workers. So it actually, in one form or another, kept going for quite a long time but eventually yeah, it had to close.

Mm. What was the, I mean presumably some people in the council must have been sort of, more or very sympathetic to its aims – what, were there sort of, divisions in the council, also you said with the police, were they able to put pressure on as well?

Yeah, well there were, there were divisions in the council but err, I think- erm, it- it- this is- what I’m about to say is more peculiar to Newham, ‘cos Newham I think, virtually all the councillors are Labour so it’s sort of, you don’t have that sort of, don’t have what you do in many councils of will it swing one way or another party-wise, there’s what, essentially one party in charge. But the different wings in the party, and you had erm, there were erm, Newham was the first borough and also Lewisham I think to have a directly elected Mayor, borough Mayor, erm who was Robin Wales, who was previously the sort of err, council leader. Erm, and he, he particularly took against NMP, and so I think he was quite influential in how the erm, other you know, kind of momentum built up across the council not to fund NMP. So erm, you know there were quite a few sympathetic voices erm, within the council at the same time. Erm, and they had in those days the council used to have its own race equality officers who were actually very actively supportive of NMP. So it wasn’t you know- I talk about the council as one homogenous mass, but actually there were differing views. But also it was a sign of the times erm, I think the kind of project that NMP was, you’d… I think it was seen as a, erm bit too much for an agitator [laughs]. So erm, you know it was only a matter of time before a council would stop funding it. So what I’m describing isn’t necessarily exclusive to Newham. There were similar projects at the time that gradually lost their funding too. Erm, so yeah the- that’s, that’s the kind of history we live through yeah.

Yeah, erm do you know why Robin took against err, the work of the organisation?

Erm… he was very focused, and he remained Mayor for- he only just lost his, very recently this year has he stopped being Mayor – he as Mayor for decades. But he was very focused on- his vision of the kind of erm, erm regeneration of Newham was erm, kind of built around putting a new image on the borough, and he was quite a driving force in terms of how the twenty-twelve Olympics ended up settling in Stratford, and so on. And I think what he didn’t want is an organisation that were sort of tarnishing the image by sort of highlighting issues of racism, harassment erm… If you could quietly get on with doing a little bit of support on the ground he’d be fine with that. Anything that’s about raising the profile of it and actually tarnishing the image of the borough as a whole, or exposing those sort of, the reality of what was going on the ground wasn’t welcome. So I think over time it just felt like this wasn’t an organisation that he wanted to have in the borough. He’d far rather a low profile service that would quietly meet with families and give them some advice and wouldn’t be sort of campaigning and bringing national attention to these sort of issues and getting them on the news and that sort of thing. So he just didn’t like that approach, and I think he, there were many others that shared that view, that they felt just put the council in a bad light, yeah.

Yeah. Did that sort of erm, agenda for redevelopment affect provision of other community organisations like SubCo as well?

Yeah, ‘cos it erm, err- what you got- actually as much as I really enjoyed the Olympics and I went to a number of events, that erm, that regeneration drive that was kind of culminated in the Olympics erm, came at a price of effectively having to clear out the kind of poorest, most disadvantaged communities because you know, that whole space didn’t spring out of nowhere, and there were people living there before. Some of it was wasteland, but a lot of it was like very poor communities living there. Erm, so I think you had a kind of erm, you know, I mean you see this sometimes when you, I mean I wouldn’t describe Newham as being gentrified, but you see it when you see areas that are gentrified like Brixton and so on, the kind of knock-on effect it has on the communities. So I think it had that kind of dynamic going on where although, you know in principle the idea of regenerating the East End, no one’s going to argue against that, of course you want to see that, but it seemed to come at the expense of the poorest and most disadvantaged communities. So I think you know, just in terms of the availability of buildings to host community centres- you know, I’m talking to you about the late eighties, early nineties where I said, oh NMP was in this community centre, and SubCo secured this centre and One Love had this centre, all of that went. There was no- because any building that had some potential or value to it you know, it was about turning it into you know, erm monetising it, not making it available for local community provision. So I think that’s you know, although the principle of regeneration was one everyone would support, those are the kinds of knock-on effects it was having. So I mean SubCo have managed to keep going and brilliant, good on them, but I think a lot of organisations fell by the wayside over time because you know, it drives up the costs of rent and you know, err you know sometimes you always think that increasing property values is a good thing but actually it has a big knock on effect in terms of you know charities being secure provisions. So you end up, instead of having a plethora of small groups, you see a number fall by the wayside. And those that can really consolidate and build, and perhaps merge and grow, you know they’re the ones that last, so you look around and you see bigger, well-established charities that some, some of whom don’t operate that much differently from the council I’m describing from days gone past. So it does change the complexion of the community and what’s on offer. So you know, there are upsides to it as well, but that I think was something that is gradual but over time I can look back and see the impact it had yeah.

Yeah, erm in your sort of own current understanding of the needs of the black community, particularly elders, have they changed since SubCo’s founding?

Well for a start err; the communities themselves are much more diverse. Although East Enders always associate themselves with a whole range of different communities, you can broadly speak- you can talk about the sort of black Caribbean community and the Asian community, and by Asian that would include different faiths and people of different countries, but that was the kind of core of the communities who needs were needing to be met. Then you began to see kind of East African settlements, Somalis and other communities speaking different languages, having different interests. So I think just the kind of range, the diversity in the community has changed quite a bit. And also, erm, maybe some of the expectations as well, so err, you know, in SubCo’s early days people were essentially for any kind of service they were getting because there was that or nothing and they were very glad for it. I think now people have a bit more of a sense of you know, I’ve worked in this country all these years, I’ve paid into the system I should be getting something back out of it, and yet conversely the sort of- some of the eligibility criteria is tougher than ever to get a service. And of course just the whole changing demographic, just the number of older people is so much more, the demands on the service become that much greater. So where SubCo were there back in the day they could meet, pretty much meet the local need, SubCo alone couldn’t meet the local need, the local needs massive. The number of people that fall in that category of Asian elders is huge in east London. So I think a consequence of that is, you can’t have what I was describing earlier as mainstream provision on the one side, and then you know, community based provision such as SubCo alongside it and that cover everything actually. In some areas the Asian community is the mainstream, is the majority now. And so I think you have to have services that are more, it’s great to have SubCo, but all services need to be more responsible to the diversity there. You can’t just leave it for someone else to cover. But as I said the funding pressures are tougher than they’ve ever been.

Yeah. Umm, well I think I’ve sort of reached the end of all the questions I had to ask, I mean is there anything else you think is relevant or interesting that you can add or?

Only to say that I think it’s a testament to SubCo that they’ve managed to stay the course of twenty-five years and from what I can see they’ve gone from strength to strength in that time, whereas others have fallen by the wayside. I think the next twenty-five years are going to be even tougher [laughs]. You know I think the pressure on social care is a massive issue for the nation as a whole, and that I now, you know, work in the Department of Health and Social Care, I see it a bit from this side just around erm, just with an Asian, aging community with greater need and you know, hugely reduced local authority budgets you just look at it and think the next twenty-five years are going to be really tough again. Erm, so I think I’d love to see you know, another twenty-five years, an oral history of SubCo after fifty years, but the next twenty-five years are not going to be easy, I know that, yeah.

Well I guess just finally, just for a bit of context, could you explain some of your current role at the moment?

Err, yeah. So working in the Department of Health and Social Care, I don’t actually work on the issues we’ve been talking about in this conversation. I’m much more involved in staff engagement, both internally with the department, so how we communicate with our own staff, how we kind of involve staff in activities and influencing the, you know the organisation they work in, and also within, not so much social care, but within the wider NHS, and we have a forum called the social partnership forum where we get representatives of many of the staff bodies in the NHS, which is the unions, some of the professional bodies, the Royal Colleges and so on together to talk about issues that relate to the kind of wider NHS work force. So I’m kind of, my day job is much more into that sort of erm, staff engagement, kind of internally and externally, but I’m not in terms of Health and Social Care policy, so I’m not sort of, involved in you know, the kind of erm, you know what should social care look like in the next ten years and stuff like that? But I’m, so but I’m definitely a kind of, now well established civil servant, but coming from a community background, coming from a voluntary service background.

Excellent, I think we can wrap up there.

-Alright, alright, alright.

Thank you so much for your time it’s been really interesting.

No worries.

THE END

2018_esch_GrOG_09

2018_esch_GrOG_09

Name of interviewee: Unmesh Desai

Project: Growing Old Gracefully - SubCo

Date of interview: 29/06/2018

Language: English

Venue: City Hall, London

Name of interviewer: Francis Ball

Length of interview: 41:55

Transcribed by: James King

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Okay, so it’s Friday the twenty ninth of June and I’m interviewing Unmesh Desai at City Hall as part of the SubCo project. Could you tell me your date of birth please Unmesh?

Erm, ninth of May nineteen fifty nine.

And where were you born?

In East Africa; Tanga, Tanzania. What used to be known as Tanganyika.

And presumably your family lived there at that time?

My parents originated from India. Erm, my grandfather moved to East Africa during the days of empire in 1945 and my father followed in the fifties, and that’s where I was born.

What, what erm work did your parents and grandparents do?

My- they were teachers.

Teachers… And, I mean there was a well-established Indian community in East Africa at that time wasn’t there?

Very well, I mean trade between erm, what err then was known as the Indian subcontinent, XXX (00.51) err Arabia and the East African coast had been going for hundreds of years. Erm, but erm late nineteenth century the first great real migration in numbers err, people who went to build erm, Great East African Railway, from Mombasa to, into Uganda. Err, traders, shopkeepers, small scale businesses, businessmen – err but post-1945 you had another great real migration to the East African countries Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania – of course there was migration to Zambia, South Africa as well – but err, the second wave of migration post-45 were people more to do with erm, the civil service, the administrative classes, err people like my fath- my grandfather, my father were teachers. And so the nature of migration was different.

Yeah. And how long did you live in East African before-?

Err, about fifteen years.

Fifteen years.

I spent a year in India, but I came here when I was sixteen.

Mhmm. Err, what was it like growing up err, in Africa?

Well for me it was a great experience because erm, erm, all the liberation movements err that fought for liberation for South Africa, Rhodesia as it then was known, erm Mozambique, erm Angola – they were all based in Tanzania. Tanzania was at the front line.

Wow.

Err, and President Julius Nyerere erm, was the greatest ever world leader and statesman in my opinion. For a country who was so poor err, without much help from, from erm, erm much more powerful and richer countries, erm bore the brunt of all the liberation movements in erm, in what was er really third world err, really developing country. So I still remember at school err Samora Michel, President erm, leader of FRELIMO – err, who was assassinated by err the Portuguese, erm colonial establishment – coming to my school and err, he spoke in Portuguese, didn’t understand a word obviously, err I still remember his last few words: ‘a luta continua’, meaning that ‘our mission continues’. Erm, so that was really inspiring.

Yeah that sounds, that sounds very interesting.

Yes and that’s what shaped my politics I think in my radicalism.

Yeah, excellent. Erm, so then what caused you to move, your family to move to England?

Well the history of the empire. The East African Asians – when erm, East African countries got independence, err they were all British citizens, and they were offered the choice to either come here to the mother country, or to stay in erm, Tanzania, East Africa – which was going through the process of Africanisation, quite understandably and quite rightly – erm, and erm so that’s our way in here.

You mentioned the national liberation movements and the process of Africanisation, could you maybe say a bit more about your sort of feelings towards that, because obviously it’s a process that saw you leave the country you were brought up in?

Well erm, the choice was really clear to people, feel welcome to help build erm, modernist Africa as we now know it, and Tanzaniasation, Africanisation, whatever you want to call it was about actually making err, ensuring that all section of er life erm, were given a chance to be a part in the making of modern err, Tanzania, modern East Africa. Err, and very specifically the indigenous African population had been left behind for various reasons, erm you know the way that erm institutional structures operated and so on. Erm, but err the certainly wasn’t erm in the case of Tanzania any anti- Asian sentiment or mood. Tanzania Asian citizens were very welcome to be a part in the development of erm, of the modern Tazania – in that sense Nyerere was a great believer in equality erm, fighting err tribalism, corruption – err, a vision of Tanzania where all races, religion, tribes co-existed in harmony.

Yeah.

Erm, so yeah, it was a err, the political processes that followed independence were, you know, there was a need clearly, educational opportunities, job opportunities and so on, had been denied to, for various reasons for long to the indigenous communities, and, so this was more and more to, to bring all sections of Tanzania’s society erm, to set them up on equal footing.

Mm. Erm, a lot of other people I’ve interviewed with talks about the context of this sort of political idea of blackness, sort of in the seventies through to the nineties, and how that was quite a broad movement that contained Asian and Caribbean people, do you think the colonial context in which you’re brought up in shaped that for many people?

It err, undoubtedly now I’m thinking back on it, it played a part. Erm, then XXX (06.22) moments, erm then decolonial moments, the er ‘Wind of Change’ that Harold McMillan talked about in the late fifties – I was privileged and lucky enough to be born erm, around that time. And obviously I was very young, as I said, my encounter with Samora Michel, who’d have been the first President of independent of Mozambique if he had lived, was a defining erm influence in my life. And then coming to England I got drawn into the anti-racist, anti-fascist movement. Erm, if you look at London people forget at the 1977 GLC elections the National Front were the third biggest party in London they had a hundred thousand voters. And err, racist attacks in East London and elsewhere erm, and err fascist marches, fascist activity, err Mrs. Thatcher coming out with her err talk about people feeling swamped by an alien culture – err very hostile media-led campaign against people like the Malawi, a family from Malawi for instance being put up allegedly in a five-star hotel near Gatwick airport – that made the front page of The Sun, very, some vicious headlines. And so there was this hysteria – a climate of, of fear, of suspicion err, which in turn queued support for far-right wing parties like the National Front. And so I got drawn into anti-fascist movement, and inevitably you then exp- you saw racism manifest itself in many other forms, institutional racism from the councils, err the, erm Black Britons, or Asian Britons access to housing or direct racism from the police, err little institutional racism, and so blackness was a political colour. It wasn’t about any form of nationalism and it certainly wasn’t anti-white. Erm, black politics err was for us erm, identifying a commonality err so black was a political colour no matter what part of the empire you came from, no matter what skin pigmentation, it was developing the consciousness that we face the same issues and working with white-working class, with white anti-racists erm, of whom there were many thousands, many brave people, many, you know, inspiring people, many dedicated people. Err, so it certainly wasn’t separatism or exclusionary politics - nothing to do with black power or anything like that. It was more an attempt to define, define a political identity.

Umm, that’s something that I certainly want to touch more on, but do you mind if we just backtrack to sort of your early experiences having moved to England, so presumably your family settled in London?

Well initially in Yorkshire, my father er found it hard to get a job there, my mother found work in a factory er, which is where many Asian women were employed, erm so they moved to London. And then after living in a city, I got a job working in the East End for a group monitoring racist attacks, police harassment, police malpractices, combatting fascist activity, and erm that’s where I learned my real politics; the politics of people, be with people all the time learn from the people and communities around you. Erm, and er amongst many other things we set up the country’s first 24 racial harassment hotline. So yes, very heady days: inspiring days. Um, it was very different in East London, the docks had closed down, um, communities were disorientated, they were seeing East London change around them, er and so there was a feeling of resentment, local councils were seen to be uncaring. Not just seen to be, they were uncaring in many ways. Erm, err although again, there were many good individual councillors, but councils were seen as remote, er local Labour parties were either detached from people’s lives or certainly not represent the new, the new communities that were growing up in east London – and so there were many matters both within the Labour party to transform it and in communities to get councils to take erm, these issues seriously. And erm, for me it was a great political education.

Yeah. Were there any campaigns or specific moments you can remember taking part in-

Well I was organiser and secretary of some of the more prominent campaigns er of the day, the Newham Seven and the Newham Eight, who happened to be, in the first case seven young Asians arrested for defending themselves against racist attacks and charged with conspiracy laws, err under conspiracy laws. The Newham Eight were similarly eight young Asians charged at a local school for defending themselves against racist attacks. Err and I must say that although I said an organiser, I was part of a mass movement of many people whose contributions have not been recognised and who preceded me in the struggle against racism in East London, from the mid-70s when I was still at school err, in Yorkshire. So erm, the marches, you know, thousands, er they were also campaigns for the Bradford Twelve campaign, Asian movements in the north of England, all on the same issues of racist attacks, fighting institutional racism, police neglect or hostility. Umm, it was a different country. And our job was to, not just combat fascism and racist activity, but to show in practice that communities in East London and elsewhere had more in common than divided them. And erm, what is happening as a result of er the decline of traditional industries led to many white people feeling alienated from local civic processes, was to see how we could form common erm, bonds. Err, fascism wasn’t the answer, but fascism comes in when progress movements don’t give an answer. Err, people are not born racist, they develop racist attitudes for various reasons: social economic factors and so on. Err, and the job of radicals, the job of progress, the job of socialists, which I am, is to see how to overcome such divisions and unite people around err, substantive issues of housing or jobs or whatever.

Yeah. Erm, were there differences between anti-racist movements and the Asian communities as a whole in the north of England and London that you noticed?

Well, sorry if I get the drift of your question correctly: no, because the movements came out from the communities. Er, there was an organic link. They were not like some sections of erm, the left that parachuted into err communities and organised marches or, or created campaigns that were not rooted in the localities, they were not rooted in the communities that experienced issues first hand.

But I mean also, were there different issues that were being confronted in the north and London or were they broadly similar experiences?

Well you could argue bigger sharpness of racism, but I’d say no, the, organic racism, I’d say no. What Tower Hamlets, the community in Tower Hamlets went through around Brick Lane, numerous racist attacks documented in a pamphlet called Blood In The Streets, by the Reverend Kenneth Leech, the Bishop of Step- yeah, from the diocese of Stepney; erm, Ken tells them about workers came out on strike and marched in pouring rain to Downing Street to protest against the murder of err, Altab Ali. Erm, so there was racism but there was also resistance.

What did your work involve as an organiser in these campaigns?

Well basically umm, err making sure that erm, people around the country knew what was going on in East London, publicising the issues, turning unusual cases into campaigns, which identified the issues that needed to be tackled. Err, like anti-racist education and so on. Councils develop policies to combat racial harassment err, it involved organising with the local community for demonstrations outside the court, marches, speaking to school children, speaking to colleges, speaking to the trade unions, speaking to Labour parties, erm directly people from the inertia of this movement around you.

Mm. Was it- you mentioned ten thousand people coming out to march, was it easy to mobilise community support for these?

Indeed, because people saw it as going on around them, and people only come out, they are not manipulated; they only come out if they know that they are real issues. So when Altab Ali er was murdered in the East Ham High Street North, erm in broad daylight err, I was only a marcher, I didn’t organise a march, this was in 1980, but I remember coming from north west London, massing huge marches, families, mothers, doctors, children, you know, young kids, err elderly- grandparents. Erm, and erm, err people you know, along with as I say, erm hundreds of erm, err, err races umm, white marches as well. Enough is enough and self-defence is no offence and I’m here to stay, here to fight – were the more prominent slogans of the time.

Yeah. You mentioned the Newham Seven being charged with conspiracy laws – could you explain a bit more about what they were and how they affected the broader black community?

Well, erm, err as I recall it there was a pub that was frequented by some local racists er, and there was an altercation between them and some Asian youths. There had been some racist attacks in the lead up to the incident, err, and in the fracas that developed the police arrested seven erm young Asian youths, err and they were on trial at the Old Bailey. Err and again issues were of racist attacks, self-defence and attempts to criminalise self-defence.

Mm. Um, was lots of the work directed at the justice system or were there other sort of angles that you took to-

Well, to be honest err, we were living at a time when, when erm the sheer forces of, of, of racism were so direct that I don’t think we had any time to think about wider issues. Err, it was more about protecting communities against racist attacks; attacks were rather publicised, about what's going on, about defending people who were wrongly arrested and criminalised. Err, and er that were putting pressure on the police and the judiciary recognised why these people had done what they’d done. Erm, but the wider issues erm, I’m going to be very frank from memory, we never took on the much wider battles, we were simply caught up with the day to day er task of running a 24 emergency service, helping you know, families that were attacked day in, day out, night in, night out. Um, err so you don’t get the luxury of developing into philosophies or wider strategies [laughs].

Umm, would you mind telling me a little bit more about the 24 hour hotline? Because that sounds like a pioneering initiative-

Well err, it was modelled on erm, on err on what Release were doing. Release were a drugs advice agency, and it was a community based service where about fifty people signed up, received training, and the idea was that erm, when the official- erm, the group that I worked for, the GLC police community, the first monitoring group in the country, umm – to be funded certainly – I think the first was, XXX (18.39) in Tower Hamlets, erm so probably the second, but erm, err the idea was that the number that we used err was widely advertised and if people were experiencing err, an attack and it was an urgent situation they would ring up that particular number, they’d be directed to whoever was on duty that night, who’d be trained in basic procedures, what to follow, err what to say to the police and so on, and the idea was to get the appropriate agencies, usually the police respond straight away.

So they’d ring your hotline before the police?

Well the idea was to do both. Err, I mean depends on the family. If the police were trusted it sadly wasn’t the case in those days, erm and erm the idea was that the hotline would, would pressurise them.

Yeah. Erm, was this a professional role or a volunteering-

The people who, who ran the service were all volunteers.

And, but were you-?

No, I was a paid worker. I mean, I was coordinator and we were funded by the GLC Police Community.

So were you, did you join the organisation when it was founded, or-

No it was found by, by local teachers, people from the local law centre, by some very great individuals who, as I said, sadly didn’t get the recognition they deserved. Remember this was all before Stephen Lawrence. So these people struggled with publicity, in the racial climate, err fantastic people some of them sadly are no longer in this world, umm so the group had been going for two years then they applied for funding, and I was lucky enough to be appointed as their first worker.

Wow. Umm, how did you, did you just hear about the work they were doing-

I saw the job advertised in City Limits [laughs].

Really?

Just applied. Erm, I was involved in anti-fascist politics anyway, the Anti-Nazi League, erm left-field organisations and so on, erm but err going err to Newham, that’s where I learned my real politics, community politics, err as opposed to learning about socialism from books and erm, from student union, you know, from student union politics.

Erm, how- would you mind talking a bit about how you first got involved in organising, in a sort of socialist, anti-fascist way? Erm, sort of what, how old were you when you first joined an organisation?

Err, I suppose erm, well when I was doing my A-levels, erm around seventeen erm, six- sixteen, seventeen. Err, I was at a college in err, sixth form college in Yorkshire, Huddersfield: Huddersfield New College, and we founded this society, a group called Society Defy Discrimination, because the headmaster felt that err, openly denouncing would be too radical. He was a very great headmaster Mr. Graham, erm and err, we produced some literature, err there were some issues at school, so when there was the Queen’s Silver Jubilee, err a student erm, who happened to be of Sikh origin, wrote a letter to the school magazine calling for the abolition of the monarchy and all that, and erm, at the celebration of the Silver Jubilee, the whole class, I kid you not, the whole class wrote a letter to the college paper called Hunch, that if Harjinder does not like our Queen and our country he’s very welcome to go back to the village that he came from.

Really?

Those were the exact words.

Wow.

[Laughs] I’m not making this up.

That’s incredible.

Well it’s incredible in 2018, it wasn’t incredible in 1977.

No, no.

[Laughs]

Erm, you mentioned that you were appointed as the first-

Yeah.

-Paid member when-

Yeah.

-Funding came in.

Yeah.

Was it hard to get funding for these quite radical groups?

Erm, this is where I think credit has got to be given to the GLC of Ken Livingstone and people like John McDonnell and others, they were a pioneering err council, they opened up whole areas of debate around women’s equality, racial equality, Irish pol- what was going on in Ireland, erm new erm employment erm, err, err issues erm, and it was a breath of fresh air, and credit due where its deserved. Erm, that erm they put their money where their mouths were and funded groups around police monitoring, race err, anti-racist initiatives, erm groups working in the Irish community, women’s groups to raise awareness. But not just that: actually encouraging communities to stand up for themselves and develop solutions to tackle the problems that they faced.

Mm. What were your relationships like with, err the borough council, so for instance Newham council?

Well initially I think they regarded us with hostility, erm I remember trying to book a council hall that we were going to pay for, to host a meeting of the Newham Eight campaign, and the council wouldn’t take the booking, until quite a brave, energetic councillor marched into town hall and said what’s wrong with these people’s money, they’re paying for it, and erm, give them the booking. Erm, and erm, err although some of the councillors might be called right-wing Labour, they were sufficiently moved by our campaign to recognise, particularly in housing, around allocation, around racial harassment… So yeah, there were some intense meetings, erm there were times when the council wouldn’t talk to us. Umm, but we started moving with the times, and credit due to some very brave individual councillors from those days who took on the old establishment. Err, our demand was simple. We asked them to recognise what was going on, because if you don’t recognise that racism is a problem, how on earth are you going to develop solutions to deal with the problem? So they were very modest demands, they were not asking for the planet. We were just asking for recognition, and then from that recognition develops strategy.

Umm, do you- can you identify any sort of, key moments in the struggle for recognition?

Well, I think the 1984 – was it? – election of the country, err XXX (25.10) of the McDonnell family in err, in Canning Town, I’m trying to think of the name of the road now erm… God, it just skipped me, opposite a pub called the British Flag, which has now become a black church, shows you how East London has changed, just overlooking- Clemence Avenue. I think it was number twenty two, Clemence Avenue. And err, uh Mrs McDonnell and her family had been terrorising local Asian neighbours and they were evicted. The National Front carried out a vigorous campaign, there was a march, we had a counter-demonstration: Fred Jones, the chairman of the housing committee, who many would call right-wing Labour umm, was involved erm, received a lot of harassment at home, and so on. Barry Simons, a very courageous Director of- visionary Director of Housing, had a lot of pressure on him, but they stood firm, and I think that for me was a turning moment. And then we had programmes like Panorama, and… I remember going on BBC News, national news, at that time it was at nine o’clock in the evening, not the ten o’clock. Err, I talked about issues, we had the world press from Zimbabwe, to India, to America, New York Times, everyone covering us.

Wow. Erm, what was it like to receive that sort of err, international attention?

Well it all helped, erm, er it wasn’t about us as individuals, it was about getting recognition, the communities having to live under what was virtually a state of siege. Umm, you know, we did a documentary held by the BBC called the Diving Line. The Dividing Line referred to Barking Road, where south of Barking Road was where the National Front erm, almost had their highest polling elections, where a lot of racist attacks were. Again, you say there's a change for lots of reasons, demographic changes and so on. Umm, and so it was a documentary, the media campaigns, and other things that actually lead to err, see a change in attitudes.

Mm. How long were you at this organisation for?

Err, well I, err I was a worker there for what two years?

What did you go on to do afterwards?

I then worked for erm, Hackney Council researching policing, qualified as a human rights lawyer, worked with a civil rights firm that erm, erm well ran then by Gareth Peirce, erm the XXX (27.29) campaign. So yeah, I mean my, all my work has always been focused in East London.

Yeah.

And eventually became a councillor in ’98; representing East Ham Central ward. And the reason I got involved with the council and the Labour party was leadership campaigns about limitations. We need to see those issues in a wider context, and certainly collective action by mainstream equality issues or single issues, and developing strategies in a wider program of change, err and so this type of institution became more active in party politics, and became a councillor, err and erm, I’m not lucky enough to be here at the GLA. I represent an area that actually taught me my real politics, has shaped my life, shaped my politics certainly. Erm my political career started off in Tower Hamlets, my first house in East London was in Tower Hamlets, erm and then I moved to Newham, worked in Newham, so to represent Hackney and Newham, sorry Newham, Tower Hamlets, Barking & Dagenham, where we were involved in many anti-fascist erm, sort of cam- erm, counter-demonstration, erm I couldn’t think to ask of anything more than the privilege of representing an area that has taught me about life, about what you know, what politics should be about.

Yeah. Could you describe what it was like to go on these counter-demonstrations? I mean it must have been pretty heated presumably?

Yeah I mean, err certainly you know, you saw the nastiness of fascism; the violence of fascism. Erm, the National Front were the more moderate of the groups: we had the British Movement, the whole Oi! Movement, err the skinhead movement, not all skinheads of course were fascists, or supporters of fascists groups, but certainly the skinhead movement was tainted with association with far right-wing group. You had the League of Saint George, this was before my time, but erm, you had other more obscure right wing, extreme right wing groups. Erm, and erm err eventually I think national attention focused around the issue of the BNP’s headquarters in Welling, but I’m talking here of the eighties and nineties, erm you know, erm constant battles err with the far right about reclaiming erm, reclaiming particular the space where progress of groups erm, would be present and sell their literature and not allowed fascist groups to begin a platform to, to sell and or distribute their wild literature.

Yeah. Erm, you mentioned previously the sort of intersection between direct anti-racist struggle and housing with that, the family in Canning Town.

Mm.

Erm, could you describe what the sort of, particular… erm, was it easy for Asian people to find housing or was there discrimination to certain levels?

Well I mean, housing certainly in East and North London has always been erm, been a controversial issue, or how should I say: the lack of housing. Err, and when you put in the racial element then you know, it becomes an explosive issue. The Liberal Democrats- the Liberals at the time in Tower Hamlets, when the council were developing the so-called Sons & Daughters policy, by which they meant indigenous white err people of Tower Hamlets… So they had this policy where if you had a second home in Bangladesh, or a home in Bangladesh it was qualified as a second home, then you were therefore declared to be intentionally homeless. If you lost your home in Tower Hamlets, even XXX (31.21), and he said the word, it was a pun, of being on a barge on the river to house homeless Bangladeshi families [laughs] and erm, uhh housing then and still is, is a major issue, and of course we hear this propaganda, this myth erm, that migrant families are being prioritised by this Labour council, that didn’t care about white working class communities, and the BNP slogan was err, ‘rights for whites’, which for a time attracted a fair bit of support from very decent, ordinary people who were frustrated by what was going on around them, who’s sons and daughters were still living with them you know, at a relatively advanced age. And so we developed the message to counter the rights for whites message: rights for all. Err, and that I think was quite an effective message. Everyone asking for one section of the community to be disadvantaged at the expense of err, you know, of another. We want the rights you know, for everyone, but obviously recognised that racism, institutional racism in particular, prevented one section of society getting access to services.

Did you, did you manage to sort of engage disaffected white people who were sort of, you know, at risk of slightly going towards this racist-

-To a small extent, yes. I think I’d be lying if I said that erm, er- we never err, our campaigns were always you know, awkward looking, but we never had the resources- the capacity, or in the sense of, how can I put this, the political vision because we were, you know, responsive, actions were responsive, actions were always defensive, err so certainly looking back now err, I don’t apologise you know, for how we worked. But erm, err you could say that maybe that was the task of wider groups like trade unions. So to that extent I think yes, we did because by going round the trade union movements trade unions started employing erm race advisors, not that this answers necessarily, I’m saying: they started having black workers’ groups, they started taking equality issues seriously, they started taking against fascists, you know, stuff like that. Err, so I think, I like to think that our work was a catalyst in other organisations that had the capacity and the strength to, to tackle the sort of issues that you asked me.

Yeah. Err, were there any other social needs that, sort of particularly impacted on the Asian community in terms of provision of stuff-

I mean, I mean again I was not greatly involved err with err some of these maybe pressing issues, erm- there was immigration advice obviously, social care, elderly Asians, erm… I was involved with a group called erm Aram Hal, which is now East West Trust, which was a home, I think, gave room for about eight people, or a dozen, elderly- the traditional norm was that elderly Asians would stay with their families, but as err, for various reasons, that model started breaking down and so elderly Asians were feeling isolated and that support needed, special provisions, that was not forthcoming from the statutory sector, erm and the East West Trust runs erm, projects, so the one behind Upton Park station, Hamara Ghar, err there are dozens of, you know, elderly Asians living erm, so yeah, I mean the fight against racist attacks opened up a hole of erm, a whole range of err issues that needed to be tackled. And I think this is where erm, XXX (35:12) SubCo erm, was one of those groups that did emerge erm, around catering for the specific needs of err, of these communities. And I’m glad SubCo’s zone is still there.

Mm.

A valuable, you know, they’re doing some valuable work in East London. But it’s origins started off in the way that the statutory sector err totally neglected the needs of, of- from growing section of our community. Err, today I think the work of groups like SubCo complements what the statutory sector does, although with cuts and commissioning and so on, the role of groups like SubCo is going to become even more important, because councillors can’t you know, not just can’t, and don’t work in the same traditional service providing, service provision level that they used to do at one time.

Yeah, erm when did you first come into contact with what would come on to be SubCo, or the people who were involved directly with setting it up?

Well, err I don’t want to individualise this, but the group of activists in Newham who were fighting racist attacks, who were err, err trying to get the police to take this issue seriously, trying to counter fascist activity, trying to get the council and the Labour parties to wake up, erm we were a small group of people in that sense, not to be elitist, but this is how these things tend to be. And inevitably people err, we had you know, one particular woman who was one of the founders of Newham Monitoring Project, she was an immigration advice worker, and through her work set up a domestic violence advocacy service – and in the seventies this, you know, before domestic violence and other issues was taken…. erm, whereas because women were addressed by councils, some very pioneering work. So the XXX (37.05) service, the, the domestic violence advising service developed into the Newham Asian Women’s project. You had groups like Sub Co again, people like your director Taskin Riash, she was involved in the marches erm, err such as the Newham Seven and Newham Eight, so people like her went on, quite rightly, direct their energies into particular err, into the fight against a particular form against discriminatory racism. And so this is where I remember SubCo. I was not greatly involved to be honest, but I can talk, what I want to do is give, set in context how groups like SubCo came around.

Mhm. You mentioned before you started recording that you were- you looked over the funding application of SubCo, or-

From memory I was asked to be referee and I was very pleased to be referee, because I could vouch for the work that erm, err they did in early years err and I’ve kept in, not in close distance, but certainly aware of the progress of the organisation, and I think any group that has survived for what, twenty-five years, they must be doing something right.

-Absolutely. Umm, obviously twenty-five years is a long history for an organisation, do you think the needs of the community have stayed the same, similar or have they-?

Well the basic needs are always there, it’s about how different services, the change in service provision, erm you know, means of such communities, in some ways the means have become more complex? Arrival of erm, refugee and migrant communities, the changing nature of East London communities, I mean East London is a melting pot: communities you know come, settle, move further out, erm so the needs are there, they take different forms, different shapes – possibly more acute today. With err… let’s not forget, the austerity politics that has been imposed upon us, and the cuts err, and the fragmentation that we see in many parts of society, fact as you know, world globalisation, Brexit, you know, how is the local economy going to shape up? So those challenges I think will be more, more acute err, the basic needs are there but they might take sharper forms. So, yeah the work of SubCo I think is so essential.

Do you think the relationship therefore between SubCo and local government has changed, err with the sort of new demands and new kind of ways that their work is funded?

Well I think the different, err ways that local government responds, commissioning and so on, has got to be born in mind that at the end of the day erm- the basic nature of the relationship, has that changed? I mean you’ve got the local state, the local council elected by local people, err and erm, the basic nature of this relationship with the third sector- the voluntary sector, whatever you want to call it, erm that I would say is still the same, you know. One representing the needs of a community, and asking the councillors with its communing powers, with its wider duties, and various local government legislation, to be responding in the best way it can.

Mm, erm, what’s- so you mentioned the other organisations that you were involved in-

-Yep.

-And the sort of wider anti-racist movement, have they retained their organisational strength or have they sort of been absorbed into-

Well… I mean, I mean… I’m talking about all four decades now, how east London in particular has changed, so I can only talk… about my own experiences, but sadly many good groups erm, you know, have either frittered away or gone into decline, erm… and erm, this is why I pay tribute to SubCo for having survived all these years.

Have you- presumably there must’ve been times where you visited SubCo and seen the work that they’ve done first hand at the centre?

Well I’ve not been to SubCo as many times as I like to, but I keep in touch through friends – friends of mine are running the organisation, I’ve seen the publications and so I’m generally aware- but no, it would not be fact to say I got to- kept an ongoing close relationship. I know sufficiently enough of them to know the purpose of which the group was set up, is still you know, continuing that work.

Excellent, well I’m not sure I have any more questions, do you-

You can always ring me over the phone if you’ve got something, see what you can make of that-

-Yeah.

-Because you’re only going to use, what, a minute, thirty seconds?

No, but all very fascinating to thank you so much.

Read a book called Newham: The Forging of a Black Community.

THE END

Interview Details

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Jayshree Patel

Project: Growing Old Gracefully - SubCo

Date of interview: 19/07/2018

Language: English

Venue: SubCo

Name of interviewer: Francis Ball

Length of interview: 00:23:57

Transcribed by: Francis Ball

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_10

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interviewer

Interviewee

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[00:00:00]

Erm, could I ask where you were born as well, please?

I was born in India.

What part of India?

Gujarat.

Presumably that’s where your family lived at the time.

Yes. This town is Nadiad, N-A-D-I-A-D.

Mmmhmm.

Yeah.

And what did your family…

My family lived there and I born in there as well.

What did your parents do when you were growing up?

Er, when my parents is, er, coming for studying, my dad is coming for study in England. 1952, he’s coming here to study.

Yeah.

When I born, he’s not there. He’s here.

Ahh. What was he studying?

Is engineering.

So then did he come back to India, or…?

Yeah.

And how long did he stay there before… presumably you…

Four, five years.

And then you all moved…

Mmm.

… over here. It must’ve been…

No, we didn’t move to here. He’s come back there and lived whole life there. But I come in here… My husband come from London, India, for reading.

Ahh.

1979 I come here, married, and come here in London.

What was it like when you first moved to London? It must’ve been really different.

Yeah. It was terrible.

Terrible?

Yeah, I don’t like it, ‘cos my whole family there, and I’m only myself and my… I don’t know my husband that long. He just come in for one two weeks, and married, and come here. And I living in six month up to marry. Then when I come here I don’t know him much. Then it’s very terrible. I don’t like it here. Every day I’m sad and things. And then slowly my family grow, ‘cos I got daughter first. Then I like it. Then up to I come in SubCo. It’s like my family. I’m working twenty-five years here.

Wow! So since the beginning then.

Mmm. Since the beginning. Some boss not here. Taskin not there.

Wow! So can you tell me a little bit about how you first found out about SubCo?

Because opposite here is school. I, er, send my son there, going everyday there, and here work going on. And I come here in SubCo. And before this there was another, er, people there. And I ask if they need any volunteers, something. My time pass. And they said, ‘Yes, you can come’, and I volunteer. And then they ask me too, ‘If you want little work’, and I say, ‘Alright’. Before is not that they are people another, another people there. And then slowly slowly, meals on wheels start, then I worked there in meals on wheels, and upto Taskin and everybody coming. Starting meals on wheels and then slowly is grow up, SubCo: day care centre start… Before is day care centre is no buses, anything. We just go home everybody house and pick wheelchair ourself and bring there.

Wow.

Then slowly is bus. We hire bus, buy bus and everything. Then XXXX [03:39] now.

So what was the volunteering work you did in the early days? Was it lots of meals on wheels or was it other things as well?

No, no, no meals and wheels after start, just before here coming here just a few people. East Asian elders coming. They’re some people don’t know English. And people they don’t know Gujarati. Because I’m Gujarati. Then we talking and make them happy, talking and everything, you know? They come in here for enjoyment. Some people are by themselves, home. No family. Some coming with family. There’s, er…

So just to give them a bit of friendship and social life.

Yeah, yeah, social. Then slowly we doing meals and wheels and I’m working in kitchen. Twenty years I’m working in kitchen, meals and wheels.

Wow. Is cooking something you enjoy?

Cooking, yes. Seventy people we’re cooking, five, six item. Nearly one, two of us.

Sounds like t must be hard work sometimes.

Very hard work!

Yeah.

[Laughs] I enjoy it anyway. And now is everyone like staff, downstairs the elders, like family. One two weeks we don’t see them we phone, ‘Why you don’t come? We miss you!’ and things like that, because… And if I’m not coming there, they miss me as well.

Yeah, absolutely.

Like family. Then I, slowly slowly, I starting I miss my family and cry and things like that. After start working here, then I slowly [Laughs] enjoy London. Before starting it was very terrible.XXX That’s why I think how could we go there, and that time there is no money that much every year to go to India, now I go every year sometime two times. Starting is hard, if you’re not working and things like that.

Oh yeah, I suppose if you don’t really know anyone in that area you can feel lonely can’t you.

Lonely, then my family grew up and children and everything then you settle down.

So what were the, who was working at Subco when you first started yourself?

Mr Romerster (??) big person, chairperson. And another staff up to their XXXX

Was everyone here really friendly?

Very friendly, like family. They treat is very good. Anything that would happen in your social line up XXX they said don’t worry they were very good like that as well.

At that time did Asian elders have problems that they needed to go to Subco about?

Yeah

What sort of things? Was it mainly not being able to sort of get around?

They’ve got no problem like home because they’re lonely and when they’ve got family because the family need some time with them as well to go shopping and things like that. They’re coming here the time pass home is very lonely, if you just sit down, if you go out you’re talking with people and you feel very relaxed that’s why they come in. XXX

Do you know roughly how many elders used to come when Subco first started because it’s really big now? Presumably there weren’t that many people in the beginning.

Before there were not that many people, 10/15 people coming

10/15. A day?

Yeah, before a long time ago 20 years ago. Not many but now it’s very big.

How has Subco changed over the years that you’ve been here?

Every year’s changing.

Yeah

Yeah

What sort of things like?

Like we’ve got some many projects going on

Have you got any favourite projects that you’ve been involved in?

Because XXXX outside we don’t know much

Because obviously lots of people have gone through Subco you must have met some characters, are there any people you made very good friends with? Or who stand out in your memory of it all?

Elders, yeah so many and nurses like that, you know XXX there is working long time 22/24 years ago Manalia (??) came in 24 years ago. XXX working voluntary as well, he’s doing everything helping in Subco all project and everything. Many peoples is like that

So is it quite common that the staff will be involved in lots of the projects? So you’ve already mentioned meals on wheels, what other projects have you helped out in?

I don’t know because I’ve been working downstairs most of the projects are outside

Oh yeah because they’ve got the new centre just down the road I think haven’t they?

Some project going on

So have you just been based here all the time?

Yeah just downstairs all the time, that’s it

Do you have any favourite memories of Subco? Any moments that just make you really happy?

Yeah we’re involved in parties and things dancing and everything now is we’re practicing XXX doing

(11:03)

The End

Not to be used without copyright.

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Jayshree Patel

Project: Growing Old Gracefully - SubCo

Date of interview: 19/07/2018

Language: English

Venue: SubCo

Name of interviewer: Francis Ball

Length of interview: 00:23:57

Transcribed by: Francis Ball

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_10

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_11

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_11

Interviewer

Interviewee

Interview Details

Name of interviewee:

Project: Growing Old Gracefully - SubCo

Date of interview: ?/2018

Language: English

Venue: SubCo

Name of interviewer: Francis Ball

Length of interview: 68mins 24 secs

Transcribed by: Jo Law

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_11

Could you tell me where you were born please?

I born in India, Punjab.

Punjab

Punjab, yeh

And what did your family do when you were growing up?

Farmer

Farmer?

Yeh, my family’s farmer…

Farmer

…is farmer, doing farm work. I’m doing as well.

Really?

Yeh, yeh, go to the farmer, yeh, you know cow.

Ah,ha

Yeh, and cut the grass…

Cut the grass

…yeh, yeh, that’s I know everything.

All, all about…

All about, all about the farm, yeh

Was it, was it hard work?

Yeh, it’s hard work, I like it,

Mm

Yeh, my mm, my father always told me you, you work like son not daughter where I strong person, like I, he said mm because I’m, my farmer is too far for my home, is when my mother walking is one hour journey. Then err, I used to er cycling, then I go to the cycle, she begging me sometime, I say “I’m not going anymore” Say “Please, please go there, go now, give two chapatti to my father” Because too far, that’s why, “I give you money”. That’s why [laughs]

[laughs]

That’s why sometime, sometime she give me money buy the sweets.

Yeh

Good memory, it’s good memory

That’s nice

It’s good memory

Um, and er, when did you, when did you move to England?

Yeh, that, I’m, I’m only 20 year old

20 years old

Ah, I’m coming for a, not for marriage just coming for er a visit, visa and er I live with my auntie, uncle he, he, he here, he’s here in that time England my auntie, uncle is here that’s why I coming home to my auntie, uncle.

Oh

That time my visa is one year 1984 yeh, then, then, this started work after one week.

Really?

Yeh, when I coming my mm, my auntie working in the factory, sewing factory, she take with me.

Where was the factory?

Factory’s somewhere London, near somewhere London, they give me only £40 one week, £40, yeh, that time £40 is enough money, yeh

And where you doing the same work…

Yeh, yeh,

…as your auntie?

… she’s doing the same work. Do you know jacket?

Mm

Lining? Inside? I’m doing that work, sewing…

So sewing it…

…sewing, sewing the lining, yeh sewing the lining. Then I, I learning the machine, big machine.

Yeh, what, can you describe what the factory was like and using these machines?

Yeh, the factory’s a very big factory is cutting as well, you know coat and jacket, making that. That, that kind of factory, yeh, somebody make the pockets, my auntie making the pocket, I’m making the just, under underneath lining? That what I’m making there, yeh, then, that, because I’m, I didn’t know much about machine work, that time I’m learning just simple straight stitch, then..yeh, I work 2 year 2, 3 year, yeh.

Was it, did it take a long time to learn how to use the machine?

Yeh, no, no, just 5 minutes…..

5 minutes

... for one, for one. Um, there was, that time er, piece work, we pay the piece work, how much did you done today, then you pay the money. Not hourly…

Ah.

…not hourly, not hourly pay. How much you done today, then he pay the money. £40, or 30pence for one, for one, one jacket lining. Yeh.

Was it hard work?

That time er, because I don’t do any machine work I’m going for the [XX] that’s what make me hard, because I learn because at that time I was young [laughs]…

[laughs]

…that’s why, my [XX], that’s why I learn. New country, new everything, there’s em, because when India, everything um, that time, now it’s time to change, that time I really, really, “What is the England?” “Where is the England?” “Eating same food?” “Is um, chapatti food, is there?” “How, how to make the chapatti in the…” This kind of, didn’t know anything about England, because we, I live in village, but er, my family ask me, “Up to you, you want to go to England? You want to married here?” I said “No, I’m going England”. If I am washing I’m happy, ‘cos my other friend is going, this friend my going, [XXXX] that’s why my mind is like this. Yes, and no I’m not married here. I’m, I want to go to the England.

Were you excited when you…?

Yes excited, very excited, very excited..

Did you have any ideas about what England would be like or was it?

That’s why, my ideas is, of how to, how to the house, how to food. When I’m coming for aeroplane I ask er, one auntie sitting there, “Auntie, where chapatti flour is there as well?” Because we eat chapatti, you know, we village, we eating only chapatti, no bread, no we are vegetarian. “He sell the chapatti flour?” she said, “Yeh, of course” That, that time I didn’t no knowledge about anything England, but that England where is the bar, what the food is selling there, nothing about that.

Mm

Nothing about, totally blanked, totally blanked.

So when you arrived in England…

Yeh, when…

…was it, was it a shock, or what was your first impression?

…when I, when I arrived ‘cos er, my. my auntie em, son is in the airport. He told me in the village “You know if somebody coming to see you, we decide, looking the marriage person, for you, you don’t say anything” He told me “You just keep quiet. You just, we, we talk to the persons” That’s time, that’s really coming to airport, going to home in the car, he telling me this things. Then, then, when I saw he has er, I’m working, I give all money to my auntie, uncle because he give me chapatti, he give me food, he give me place, £40 come in my packet I give it to my uncle. I didn’t see the money.

Mm

He, he, he just give me food, he got big family, I, I helping with, I really see, see, se the, one time I’m, I’m really fed up of all that, I told my uncle’s son “Wish I’d died”, he said “You know, here died you need £1000” [laughs], he told me like this. No free died [shriek & laughs]

[Laughs]

That’s why I shocked, he said “No free died here. You need to £1000” [laughs] He said “That’s why you make the money first, then you died” [laughs]

[laughs]

I never forget this word. [laughs]

[Laughs]

[laughs] Never forget…

So did your, did your uncle’s family live sort of around this area?

Yes, east end

Oh in the east end?

They live in east, east end. But no no, my auntie, my uncle and her daughter and her two son, one son is married, is big family

Wow

Is big family, yeh

Was it, did you all live together in one house?

Yes, one house

Did you find that tough or was it, did you get along with everyone?

Because that erm, I, I XXXX (0:07:44) live with, you know when I come in, I give the hugs to my, er, auntie children. He, he, he didn’t like this things, uh, because India we say… “hello XXXX (0:07:59) that they, after wanted to tell me we don’t like you, you give us a hug. ‘Cos he, he born in India, but he growing up here

So not used…

That’s why he, he, feel his XXXX (0:08:12) his feeling XXXX (0:08:13)

Mm

‘Cos you’ve hug us, that’s why. This kind of, uh, I’m really, really, ah

Yeah

Shocked. Things here for me, ah, because you are XXXX (0:08:22). That’s why XXXX (0:08:24) you are my family XXXX (0:08:26) that’s why, he, if he take me shopping, then uhhh, he, he told, he, he, he’s uh, XXXX (0:08:34) he told me already, you keep quiet. I didn’t say much, I just look, I ju- I just looking, look, looking at them. Then, uh, after 1 year he found one man, uh, he, then his, five pe-, six people coming to see me. Uh, I, I just give them tea, erm, and, after tea everything gone, two, three day my auntie look. He didn’t call us, maybe he didn’t like you XXXX (0:09:04) Ah yes, I saw where, if, their kind, important is to married, because she said you coming here now, we should be settle you. We no send you back in India. If send you back India, my ma- my father said don’t send back to India, ‘cos if she’s coming India, people thinking something is fault to her

Mm

That’s why she no settle in England. That’s why my auntie, we have pressure for you. That’s, that’s, that’s why. One man and five, six is coming to see me then its really, really XXXX (0:09:45) happened to me, my life, really I feel bad and two, three, he didn’t call, maybe he didn’t like you. Then after two day he call to my uncle, yes we agree, we like her.

And then

Yeh

You?

All, all, all, I didn’t, my husband and I didn’t talk to her, I didn’t see her after, after three month I got court XXXX (0:10:08), after court XXXX (0:10:10) because I got to three month, uh, of marriage but didn’t talk to my husband

Wow

Yeh, I didn’t call, he didn’t call me before marriage, he didn-, I, I don’t know much. I’m exciting ‘cos I thinks I got new clothes, I got new shoe

[Laughs]

[Laughs] this much. [Laughs] I’m exciting, yeh, I’m, if I got married I got new clothes, I got new shoe, I got new jewellery, this much, it didn’t do anything worth it.

What was the, um, wedding like?

Wedding, wedding is ni-, um, good wedding, but, um, I’m really nervous, nervous because everything, everything new for me. My father coming to my wedding XXXX (0:10:49), my mother in India, other, other, all family in, only my father’s coming to my India. Everything, everything new to, traditional and erm, I can’t say anything, that’s the problem. Today I’m say anything, I’m in XXXX (0:11:04) at the moment, but that time, I’m n-, no my choice, anything.

Erm

XXXX (0:11:09) I’m just looking, seeing the what have brought, that’s it.

Sounds quite hard

Yeh, hard back there. 1984.

Was the, um, what was the area around here like back in the 80s? Was it different to how it is now?

Yeh, lots of different that time. No rush like this, I didn’t heard of crime, that time. You knows if somebody now is uh, anyone, any married, erm, our culture go to the XXXX (0:11:44) other cultures, very girlfriend, boyfriend. But that time, no, no, no. ‘Cos, my cousin’s sister they’re my auntie’s granddaugh-, daughter, she likes someone, you know what, what is angry family? “Kill him, we kill him”. ‘Cos, uh, mostly, uh, nobody heard XXXX (0:12:06), the other, other culture boyfriend, girlfriend, this type of. Nothing that.

No

That time, I never heard. She done one mistake, his family is say “We kill her, we kill his wife and his family”. This much anger, this much anger to family.

Wow

Yeh, that time, nobody do it like this. No girlfriend, boyfriend

Why, why was it such a big problem?

Because, that time is tradit-, more, maybe culture wise, strict. Maybe, you know, mostly, now every house somebody find a girlfriend, boyfriend, anyone now. We, if I’m place, I know, not my daughter doing, mostly doing that. That time, nobody doing that. That’s why if something different, decide that children is shocked fairly. Yeh, you can’t do that, because other cultures marry to other culture.

Mm

This is not traditional. This is our culture, no married to other, other one. We, we don’t decide, family decide that. Marriage, no, um, nobody choose that, okay I want to met her, I want to choose her, want to see the person, I want to talk to the person, no. Family decide it.

Yeh

‘Kay. We see the, we see the family, yeh, just you sees, yes, that’s it. No ask, yes or no. I think so, nobody ask. Nobody ask me as well.

That’s just how it is?

Yeh, nobody ask me as well. Do you like him, or do you want to talk to him? Nobody like, nobody said.

So after you got married presumably you moved out of your uncle and aunt’s house?

Yeh, I moved uh, out uncle’s and auntie’s house, but, uh, I got very tough life

Yeh

Yeh, very, very tough life because my husband I didn’t see, he, he’s drinking, he’s going jail, that time I saw him after four, five day, he’s uh, hit the window, this kind XXXX (0:14:06) because, other family is very close, I saw my husband, nobody bothering him family. XXXX (0:14:13) my mother in law, uh, my father in law, his brothers, his sister, brother in law, erm, sister in law, lots of family; twelve people living there. But, uh, nobody XXXX (0:14:24) to my husband, he’s uh, he, I’m not saying he’s very, going drinking, he, he want to come with me book club, but I’m very traditional, I say no. He said lets introduce me to my friends, I say no because I think this is wrong. Erm, sitting there housewife, this is my traditional, cooking, cleaning, working, this is my traditional. Then, I, but my husband try good for me but that I, I am not changing. I’m strict, but I’m um, um, I’ve listened to my mother in law, I listen to my father in law, but he say to me XXXX (0:15:08) he waiting for me upstairs, then, b- because of my father coming after we one week married, when he saw my husband anger problem, drinking problem, then my father told me later on, he said “I think so, I, I done wrong thing to my daughter.”

Yeh

Because I got only one daughter. I, I married wrong place. Yeh, that’s what he did. But, no, no, nobody do it, nobody can do anything that, that nobody do anything.

Yeh

Because I’m the only XXXX (0:15:43) I need to marry someone and settle, settle this country.

Yeh

Yeh, settle this country. But my husband XXXX (0:15:53) thirty year old, he’s like this, going outside drinking, no working. But later on, I know that my father in law told me, I told your uncle these things, XXXX (0:16:07) sounded like this, you know? But my auntie said, before marriage everybody drinking like this, after marriage, stopped. That’s my auntie told me, I think like this. But my father in law said I clear already, your auntie uncle know my son like this.

Yeh

Yeh, that’s why me… it’s not their fault, its not their fault. Yeh

So, did you still work in the, the same sewing factory…

Me?

After you got married, yeh

Yeh, that time um, same my, my mother in law. But this is one week after kids were going same place, then money coming I give to my brother in law. Same packet, green um, envelope come in, I give. To that time, the envelope, give to my brother in law. And my sister in law, she give the, she work in same place as well

Ah

Same factory with me

Yeh

She give the money my mother in law as well. We going work to morning, nine o’clock somebody pick up us that time. He got van, factory got, factory man got van, he pick up us some ladies to, to, door to door. Then me going home, he dropping five o’clock. That night, five o’clock, come in and my mother in law start cooking. She said, sit down have your lunch I make a chapatti. Okay, she make, she start to make a chapatti, we eating, then after we washing feed the family sitting by the TV, we watching like not like this time, not this. everybody watching program, one program in one place. Not, not bedroom, not and and, drinking coffee or tea, making their tea and sit together. Then, that time, it happened like this, families happened like this

All day and…

All the youngers, everybody sitting watching Indian film, lets go wait somebody, wait for us, come on everybody. It, and then drinking tea, coffee, like, then after sleeping ten, eleven o’clock go to sleep every night

Yeh

Now, nothing happen like this.

No, you don’t have…

This much, this much changing

Yeh

This much. Its better, now’s not better, that time is better.

Well its nice to do things together isn’t it?

Yeh! This is now, everybody phone coming, no time to talk to husband and wife, just everybody, monitor

[laughs]

Yeh, its, its no good, its no good. No family building

No

No family building

Was, um, were there lots of Asian people who worked in the, in the factory?

Yes, that time. Lots of people, Asian people. I work, fifteen year

Wow

Yeh, fifteen year I working there, yes, sewing work. Then, factories closed, yeh, factories closed, then uh, I got no XXXX (0:19:10) anything because no, no, other this kind of work than um, I got no job seven, eight month then one uhh, came home with opening XXXX (0:19:25) errrr, my, my sister in law’s um, daughter in law, she told me uh, that XXXX is open, I apply for the kitchen work. You apply for the cleaning, um, cleaning work, ‘cos I got no any experience, uh, I give the reference in Gurdwara, just pretending XXXX (0:19:49) because I need the reference, where you cleaning, where you work before, and every job like this you know?

Yeh

Need experience, I write in the Gurdwara, I’m going to sometime Gurdwara, uh, to start for the cleaning, cooking, like this little bit. Then, uh, the, open XXXX (0:20:10) the rest, not much, only two three new home, new resident, only two three young. And I, after seven month they only give me only thirty of them for cleaning, and, when I do first the cleaning, only three four rooms cleaning, I finish very quick. One lady work with me, when, she said, “do slowly, do slowly. Don’t rush, just stay calm, just stay calm” but, I only said her “I’m too fast”. Second day the men happen, I finish my work, I go to the manager, my manager English, she uh, she, I told her, “I finish my work, what I do now?” She told me “You come to the XXXX (0:20:58) my father’s, my father’s still live with me. She knows that, she say “you look after your father at home?” “Yeh, so I got no experience, nothing, and uh, little English problem as well, no NVQ nothing” She said “don’t worry, we give you training, we, we tell you. What you do, you go upstairs, see other carer or to work old people and you try to help old people, then I see” I say “OK”. I go upstairs, work my colleague doing with the old people, I start the same thing, take the toilet, umm, like, help the paper, give the tea like this. That even evening she called the nurse, “OK, what you think about her? You think so she’s good?” She say “Yeh, she’s good. She, she, she said OK. My same, same, cleaner, but she XXXX (0:21:56) not in the paperwork, paperwork is safe. She said “Ok. Now, how many you will want? Do it. ‘Cos, because, care work need the work.” That time I start, caring works job. That time, you no writing the files, I got no writing, no really scary for me. Then, Nepali… lots of Nepali girl working there. I told her “I do everything, just write for me yourself”. The girls encourage me, “No auntie, you do file work, doesn’t matter spelling is wrong, doesn’t matter, no, you do.” I said “No, no no, I’m uh, I’m I’m, couldn’t spelling hairs, head, I don’t know what to past make up, or future.” She said “No auntie, doesn’t matter, you do. You do what you write, you do.” Then I told my colleagues these things as well. Did you people learn English? They said “oh you, you write the file now” I said, “This, that girl give me, give me confidence to know, try, doesn’t matter spelling is wrong. What, uh, she said, don’t worry.” Then I do the NVQ 2 in there, that much has helped me, the girls. They said, “no auntie, you do it. we with you, we give you support.” Then because of XXXX made one lady come in to do the NVQ, NVQ is lots of people work, and lots of experience. Because everybody, some, some, everybody own way, working, so, everybody here as well, own way. Somebody made a cup of tea different, I made a cup of tea different. Somebody making the toast different, somebody sampling the food. Everybody own way. Nurse, their job is everybody own. Some tell you good way, some tell you, you think what is best for me. How you learn, fast or slow. I pick up fast, how to do the fast work, how to monitor personal care how to read fast one. How to take the, because, nursing home, time to tell. Nine o’clock breakfast, eleven o’clock tea, twelve o’clock lunch, right, two o’clock tea, five o’clock soup time, changing time, every time two time. Oh you got big responsibility. Fifteen, um, um, resident and two three carer, that’s right. XXXX (0:24:33) when I was asked, too much people. I told two or three, I said “Here, less resident or care” XXXX said things like “We cut the staff” I say “No, I did say cut the staff, I’m going to, to the nursing home, but here is no toilet, no changing the bed. There fifteen resident, two carer” I’m still working there, one night, I’m still working there, carer. Sunday night, I’m still working there.

Where is the care home?

Springfield care home near XXXX (0:25:08) back in work three year, they give me, after I, uh, go to the other care home. Its Springfield Care Home, Springfield Care Home. Is Newbury Park

Ahhh

Newbury Park. You don’t know?

Yeh

Yeh, the Britannia, the behind?

Ohhh right

Behind there, yeh, Britannia, behind the care home, yeh, big…

So just a little bit down the road?

Yeh, not, not down the road, Newbury Park, you know Central line going in, Ilford?

Ohhhh, right I’ve got you, I’ve got you

Ilford, Ilford, yeh, Newbury Park

Yeh

There I work, still working one night

Ohh right

Still, yeh, still working

Did you enjoy, um…

Yeh! Enjoy, um, somebody give you blessing, money’s coming as well, somebody coming… I love the work, I love the, I love the people, people uh, but what, depend on the service user, treat like you

Mhm

If someone treat like good, I done more for, somebody hating me, swearing me, then I start feel, “I’m not…” I do my job, but not too much, this is my job, doesn’t matter he hit me, he swear me, but still I give you water, still I give you tea, still I change the pad, you know? But when people is nice, I get more for extra, that’s, that’s I feel. He showing love to me, he talk to nice to me, make me happy, I make him happy, that’s, that’s, that’s the different, that’s the different. I think so, I believe it as well. It is well. Everybody different different, own way, mostly I’m making laugh here, you know? Somebody, didn’t like joke, then I stop the joking. Yeh, somebody say no, when you not here, we are bored, you know? only you make me laugh, I said “I’m happy come making somebody laugh”

That’s so nice

You know everybody said, everybody, because I learn when old, he need there somebody sit with and talk to five minute. That’s important. That’s, that’s, everybody need it when you getting old. Here, nobody time, nobody time to that, that’s the problem. Here, no family time, no work people time, ‘cos work people has too much responsibility, no time to sit every auntie for five ten minute and listen to her, there’s feel, feel lonely, everybody feel lonely. I feel lonely as well

Mmm

Is just doesn’t matter, I, I know how hard to go though. I, I, I want to see somebody talk to me, somebody listen to me, somebody I want to tell something to someone, this, this, country I heard like this. Same carer work as well, as well. Cook family, no time to parents, and everybody’s busy, life is busy, till less busy. He come in this centre, came, “somebody make me laugh, some talk to”. Doesn’t matter family, everybody got family issue, but, need to trust to listen somebody. Not if I visit somebody I tell to my other colleagues, tell to other people. That’s why I told aunties “Don’t share everybody told your things, personal things. Share one person. Build your trust, keep in the mind”

Yeh

Not tell them, my colleague, you know this son? Do you know this? that’s not nice. But one thing good if somebody trust you, I’m happy if somebody trust me, somebody share me I’m happy. I’m happy myself! Can, can she trust me? That’s important to me

Yeh

Yeh, I never… trust broken. One thing, honesty. I’m very honest person, everybody know. When I’m coming here to the job, apply the job, three lady to interview. XXXX (0:29:08) I’m sitting chair here, I’m really shocked, three ladies get to my interview, then, I tell them my other experience, I’m one care home but care home at the XXXX (0:29:19) that time I’m working there as well. Um, I tell the truth, I said what did you write? This journal going in the inside, what island? I tell these things. Erm, lots of talk, XXXX (0:29:39) erm, he ask “what do you speak and what do you doing in the care home?” I said “the care home we give the shower and the write in the paper, but not in the shower, this thing I don’t like it” you know? But this is lying things. He said, he hear nobody, we doing, not pretending. That night I tell honest everything I tell my XXXX (0:30:06) when I go home my daughter said, younger daughter, “Mum, how you my interview?” I said “tell this things…” “Mummm, how do you give the job to you? Why you telling these things? Why you do, do, why you telling your experience? What is the other one doing XXXX (0:30:26) I said “Ok. That’s fine if you don’t give me job, that’s fine. But I, I love my honesty. I’m sleep peacefully because I’m honest.” She said “look, no no call tell me any more for you because you, you tell the truth. You, honesty not working everywhere” I say, “Ok, that’s fine. The phone not coming”. Second day I’m going work then uh, I told my daughter, phone not coming, still don’t know I got job or not? She said “Mum you call, then after, you know the peace of mind that you’ve got.” At twelve o’clock I call, they soon pick up the phone, I said “I’m Sukhwinder Kaur speaking, uh, I got interview, what has happened?” She said “we called yesterday your home number and, yes you got job” That’s, I’m proud myself. I told my daughter “look! Honesty’s working.” I, I got more confidence to make the honest, if I done wrong I accept it, if I, anything done right, I said yes. I done wrong, sorry, next time I’m not doing anything. If I’m done wrong, I, I, I’m not apologising anyone. That’s, this, this is me.

Yeh

I proud myself, still I’m 54 year old, I’m everywhere honest. As straight, as straight to face. I tell the straight to face. Everywhere, my family, my daughters, my chris-, uh friends, know me very well XXXX (0:32:05) sometimes you need to more shy

[laughs]

I said “no, no, if somebody hurt me, I tell their face, you hurt me, you, you told me… doesn’t matter, you… the person leave my life, they leave me, I took her, because I loved not for the selfish, I, oh, this person I need you one day XXXX (0:32:27) my life, no, no. I never do like this.

Oh

Its just still my life, I’ve never done friends or anything, I’ll never do that. True love, a support and helping people if need me, help somebody. One story I tell you just now, two month ago, go, woman near to my home, he live up, in the flat upstairs, I know her very well XXXX (0:32:53) window like this, h- he sitting in the window near to chair “Hello! Good morning!” Everybody! Children, everybody talking like this, somebody speak with… somebody no speaking, somebody, everybody rush, going work, going school, and uh, he speak to me as well I say “how are you” he said “oh look nice day today” it’s raining. One day I’m at home three o’clock a- a- and my XXXX (0:33:21) shopping, and now to yet, little raining, I said “lets go to shop”. I go the shopping and then he’s sitting in the window, he “hello how are you? Look it’s raining” yeh, he said “I want a cup of tea but I got no milk, yeh” I said “don’t worry, I buy for you!” He said “you sure?” I say “yeh, don’t worry. I buy the milk for you” three o’clock time, tea time. He said “ok” uhhh, I said “what, which milk you like? Blue? Green? Small? What?” He said “uhhh, blue one. Small XXXX ((0:33:57)” I say “ok, ok I’m going because I’m going shopping”. Then, tesco is across the road, tesco express, my home. I’m, I’m past the tesco because I’m thinking when I’m coming with shopping, then I buy the milk for him, then something, I cross the tesco, then my mind click, noo, he should be wait for me, first I buy the milk, give to him, then I go to shop. Then, I’m relax as well. Then I go to back, cross that road, I buy the milk for two pint, and buy the cake as well because I know that people like cakes. Then when I going back to home, he coming downstairs waiting for me, open the door for me, waiting for me. I said “thank god” I, I XXXX (0:34:52) Then I give the milk, he give me money I said “no, I don’t take any money” he said, he give me kiss here, blessing me. I said “anything you need, I give you my number and I buy it for you: bread, milk, anything.” He said “no, otherwise I’m ok, I’m walking with the sticks. Two days raining” he said, “I can’t buy the milk”. I’m happy, God choose me to help, help them. Otherwise, I told you I, um, um, go to the shopping, but God choose me. And now you go to help.

Yeh

Help them.

Oh that’s really nice…

Yeh, he so happy. Thank God you choose me for help. That’s what I believe, these things. I’m not going temple, two, two year I’m not going temple, no, no, not the praying temple I’m not doing. I’m not doing praying, b- because I believe these things. You help somebody, you make a love somebody, this is value.

Yeh

This is… this kind of work.

So how long did you say you’ve been working at SubCo for?

Uh, I working two year

Two years

Two year, that’s the, what I’ve been doing.

Uh huh

That’s what we uh, I leave the job in the nursing home, there's a new near by nursing home that’s really worse for me, making very hard time, tough time. New people, I’m new as well, everything lie, I told you nobody keep the shower just writing the paper. Come and write in papers and I, uh, don’t like these things. And nobody help the colleague do that, big big people and I, ask for the help, nobody helping me. For the, I can’t manage this kind of, uh, I don’t like working there. Then I go back my old care Springfield, they mind working there, now I move back stuff there. After I’d finished XXXX (0:36:44) job, I start here, he give me three day: Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, fifteen hour I working. Then I choose the uh, works in the, my other old care, I told to manager I want to back stuff she said “no problem, you come any time” yeh. There, seven year I working there and everybody know me.

[laughs]

That’s, that’s why, that’s why I didn’t leave the job

No

Yeh, this is, this is my life

How do you find working at SubCo?

SubCo? Subco give me confidence. Mostly I got no confidence, my, my other home I never talk to the manager, I’m really scared. Sub-, I need, that I might need the more of I got twenty-three hour contract, I worked forty-four hour. My friend helped me talk to the manager. Look, this, I got no confidence to go and tell to the manager please give me more hour.

Mm

This job I got no confidence to no confidence, seven eight year I work here but I got no confidence to talk to the uh, manager. My colleague is ok but not manager, but XXXX (0:37:51) then, I come SubCo… I’m not scared anything! Not for the manager, not for colleague XXXX (0:38:01) bring something I tell her straight away “you’re doing your…” XXXX (0:38:06) come to the Frida, “Frida this has happened downstairs”. I know you XXXX (0:38:11) but er, I can’t see all things. She said, “and you tell the colleague”. I said “I tell the colleague, colleague no speak to me after two month, there’s a problem” [laughs] “that’s the problem, this has happened” go tell the colleagues ‘cos she said you a colleague ‘swell I call, oh XXXX (0:38:33) why you told me this? lots of confidence. Lots of learning here, because this is totally different work. There’s person came mostly here is day centre, most experience for the service user different service user, talking, laughing, the, the, big cheer, sitting somebody need to feed different people, and that’s totally different. Is totally different. That, should be talked to, you should be cared for, for the service user. ‘Cos his mind is very clever XXXX (0:39:09)

Mhm

But you talk, talk, you should be no, what you talk to maybe this auntie, uh, mind after no, why you talk to me? Why you? Why you say these, talk to me, you know? Give the loss of confidence, or I never, I got two year, never said in the morning “ok today I’m not going work” less call to XXXX (0:39:32) “sorry I’m ill” touch wood, never, never happen like this. Yeh

What’s, what’s the best thing about working at here do you think?

Working is uh, team work, yeh. Nobody perfect, everywhere nobody perfect. And, Frida, she give us personal support is there. I talk ‘bout my family, I’m talk personal things, she always listen to me. Otherwise, managers not got time to listen these colleague things, personal things you know? And, he give the appreciations, uh, just in meetings, the AGM meetings then he go staff take away day. Every year we taking the away day, special in the hotel, is umm, take the pictures, good food and the big table meeting is everyone who got water, food, everything, nobody do this, this nobody XXXX (0:40:34) But he spend the money for us as well, yeh, this thing is totally different to me. Care home, never Christmas party, never give the Christmas party, never give the any, any appreciation. If XXXX (0:40:49) Christmas party, you should be, give the money first no? But here, he, he give the appreciation to us, he value to us, yeh, SubCo, totally totally different to me, totally different to me. Here I got more confidence, more confidence.

Where are…

I’m so lucky to work here

Where have you been away on your away days?

Away day, uhh, this time I’m go, we Barking, before two year I, I go to, I forget but uh, nice hotel, nice hotel. And, uh, lots of food to eating, choice the food, mostly, uh, anything in the party if you left the food, he to take it! Yeh, take my father, take it for some, for my father

Yeh

Or, XXXX (0:41:40) see everything, okay going to seaside, take the people to seaside. We singing the bus, heh, XXXX (0:41:49) there, there, there managers treat like uh, colleague, not the other manager. Put the water, I put the water to feed them, make the laugh

[laughs]

This, uh, is totally, totally very nice. Very nice, I told you, two year I work at XXXX (0:42:07) Otherwise, if I need holiday, he’s understanding, he give me holiday. That’s the big thing, he never say we be short staffed, sorry we no give you any holiday, and he understand. He keep the holiday, you need the holiday? Ok that’s fine, we understand to you.

Yeh

That’s the big, big, big thing is holiday as well. If I any emergency, I know, my working place understanding to me. But um, care home people didn’t understand. If you uh, cancel a shift you, we don’t give you any shift, yeh.

Wow

Yeh, one thing I tell you ‘bout care home what happened to me. Uh, I told my um, making the rota nurse, I said “just give me two night, you know? I can’t do three night ‘cos I working here” she give me, force me, three night. I find two night very hard XXXX (0:43:05) but third, she change my location, put me one to one. Uh, just look after one people alright, those people is very hard. I told, “look, you suddenly change my, my location. I’m, I’m tired already, I done two nights very hard. This third one, but I’m coming because I’m honest, I can’t let down people, and I’m still coming but you change my location I work alone, you know? She said “uh, this not my decision, this the manager decision.” I say “ok, I’m going home”. She’s like “up to you”, I take my bag, I go home. I come home second I call my colleague, she said “you all shift is gets, manager all shift XXXX (0:43:51) I said, she said “uhh, ok, I call the manager”. I say, she said “why you leave the building?” I say, “look, because nurse force me for the three night, I can’t do the three night I’m so tired, and suddenly my location is changed. First, my colleague work with me, that time I’m one to one, that’s very hard patient. This is my third night, I’m tired”. She said “uh, I’m not talk to you in phone, you come here then talk to me”. XXXX (0:44:28) I leave the job. My friend told me leave the job. I’m, I’m, I’m angry as well I leave the job. After two, three, I decide if I find another job, is not easy for me, interview, everything. XXXX (0:44:46) I want to see the manager. She said, write a letter, manager said, when you come to XXXX (0:44:54) big letter, write for me what will happen that day. I write everything, tell the truth, ok, yes I’m leave the building, these, but, sudden change. But I’m going through, I’m just sitting like this. She shouting me, she telling me, she said “you know, if, if you feel why didn’t you call me, that day? If you, if you, feeling you tired you can’t manage one to one. This is my fault. Should we call deputy manager? Should we call me? Then we, we, listen to you, this is our mistake”. Yes, this time our mistake, because, this, my mind not clicking XXXX (0:45:37) Then, ok, I said “I’m sorry, I, I, this mistake. Next time, otherwise, I’m not here for three night, please do two night for me. Because nurse not listen to me. Then, then, then the deputy manager, she nice to me, she said “ok, we, we give you two night”. Then, that’s, that’s no different, there other.

Yeh

This I tell you, different for here, or there work. That experience is my bad experience. But here, I got good experience, good memories

Yeh

And good memories. Good memories SubCo, or SubCo appreciates the work and uh, nobody shouting, everybody listening. Make me coffee table to talk to, anyone. Yeh

Yeh. What, what’s the… what are some of your best memories of SubCo? The favourite things you have done here?

Favourite thing, uhhh, for some service user

Yeh

Yeh, when he telling we miss you, you last week off, and uh, nobody laughed last. This, this, uh really make me proud. ‘Kay thank god, somebody give me heart place to me. Other thing, my, managers, all managers could be, they understanding things. XXXX good as well but I never talk to the XXXX , never go through the task. Yeh. I’m rea-, little nervous to her. Just “hello”, sometimes she ask how are you, that’s it, not friendly. Yeh, she got pressure, she got own work, she got big thing. But other one, I go to XXXX (0:47:22) anything I go to her, I’m, making the love. Very good memory, yeh, colleague is good as well. Yeh, we, we try to best give the service to here. Lots of training here as well, before not like when I start work, more rules now here. Yes, uh, if they uh, making the food, taking the home, aunties now you can’t take home, eat here…

They all come here

Eat, eat, here food. And uh, somebody bring anything open, we can’t give you. Before, not like this, if somebody open food, come in, share everybody.

Oh

Lots of group here changing now. Before, not like this when I start work

Why have the rules changed?

Because, uh, I think so, more professional? More following the law, not like Indian cul-, not like Indian, uh, Indian people working here, doing everything. Do what you do. Maybe, he think so, we do professional XXXX (0:48:27) happen to anyone. May-, medicine. Anyone who auntie I got, today one auntie ask me “you got, uh, pain killer?” I say “auntie, we not do the pain killer, we got no pain killers, or we can’t give you. If anything happen to you, then if, doesn’t matter, we can’t allowed to give you”. This kind, we follow the rule. You know aeroplane? Say give me pain killer, but he said give me address - sign.

Oh really?

Yeh, this never happened to me. XXXX (0:49:10) pain killer XXXX (0:49:13) Doesn’t matter, auntie thinks that pain killer is nothing there, no. But this kind of SubCo rules now, when I start, not. Now more day to day strict, but it, our culture in India, aunties not understand this, this rules. Why do you do that? Why do you XXXX (0:49:41) before not like this, we coming eight or nine year here, never happen like this. Never, why? Why? It’s hard for our auntie as well, hard for auntie as well. ‘Cos Frida tell us when meeting this is rule, you can’t do that. We, we need to follow the rules, you know? That’s, that’s why it’s hard for some aunties, mostly old one, four, five year coming, new one? No problem, they follow the rules. But other aunties, hard. They said to us “why you not doing like this?” I like this food. I said “we open somebody bring food is open, we can’t give the open food, some, some got allergy”

Mm

You can’t share the things, uh, uh each other as well. Can’t stop what we do, we try auntie, don’t share anything food each other. That’s not the, the, no SubCo not do like this.

Yeh

Yeh. “Why not? This my favourite, this is my friend!” Yeh, this kind of…

It can be difficult can’t it?

Yeh, yeh, this… explain to the XXXX (0:50:51), they give hard time to us, not listening. The… we can’t say anything as well, if they do things and he can’t accept it. That’s why, lots of changing after two year. Before, not like this. Now more strict, more follow the rules. Hmm, yeh, ‘cos people, more people, work now. Before not like people work, now lots of people work.

What about, um, have you been on any of the outings with the elders?

Yeh, outing is the, the, some people uh, not uh, be able to go to seaside, we have a limit to take the people. Because uh, how many the colleagye who going and how many responsibility to wheelchair, wheelchair people. Seaside want to go everybody, seaside want to go everybody. Now, we got um, dinner now. Now today I ask two aunties, we have to ask for twenty-five pound. [Shrieks] “Twenty-five pound?!” Nobody want to go.

[laughs]

“Nooo!” XXXX (0:52:09) finished eleven, twelve o’clock. And, twenty five pound! If ask for three pound, the morning is too much, why didn’t you people uh, free party. I said “this is SubCo, this is the charity. No anybody give us money, you know?” “No? We sitting this chair, uhhh, we got to give the forty pound to SubCo, just for sitting in the chair”. This kind of, give us the XXXX (0:52:36) back.

[laughs]

I say “Auntie, you not give the pocket your forty pound” XXXX (0:52:43) to you. Why you paying, why you not paying?” Just come here for. This kind of Indian culture. But English culture not like this, Indi- Indian uh, nursing home not like this. Yeh, ‘cos you work for me, everybody coming for the SubCo. Auntie, this is charity. This, this help. I, I, sometime I got the money as well, to help to this, ‘cos I understand this charity XXXX (0:53:11) He said “no no, this, this this, uh, better go he help somebody you know? This, this Indian cul-, Indian ladies not understand these things. These things… lots of money, lots of, lot, lot, never ask, for the give the money before food. “No, I, we didn’t eat the food. Why you ask the money before asking the food, extra round, we going eating first? Then after we pay.” Two-fifty, sometimes very hard to give to me, big, big to me. No, first give the food, if they like it or not like it, then we, we give you money for two-fifty. Yeh, this much, ‘cos all Indian, that’s why.

Is different sort of…

Different house, yeh. Nah, not professional. She thinks, uh, we think right things. We, we can’t XXXX (0:54:09)

Um, do you think that the needs of Asian elders have changed over the years?

Yeh, needs have changed. Before, independent coming here. Like, uh, say, uh one uncle here, I saw. Now, coming to wheelchair, some got paralysed

Mm

Some got beds, more difficulty coming. More difficulty coming now, difficult find coming. Independent very less now, mostly. Frida told me, ‘kay now, this day, this kind of becoming… sometime feel hard, sometime feel easy, depending, independent so much demanding, so much. but their people not, not, not say anything to us. We feed, we drink, we take the toilet, you know? They happy to us, appreciation us. But uh, now, now, this kind of, more, more, coming now service user.

Mm

Need to the care, need to somebody feed, need to the paralyse, somebody going toilet to hard, and dementia, more dementia now, to need to follow, follow them, going toilet, XXXX (0:55:38) auntie say “Oh take this out loud”, I say “auntie, it’s not his fault, he’s, he don’t know what he saying” XXXX (0:55:48) but someone, he does not understand. “Noo, we don’t like her, take off, take outside.” I say, “no, this is SubCo. This, this, this difficulty coming to now, to us, now”.

Mm

We explain, we try to the, no auntie this is SubCo mean, everybody. You can’t do own way, can’t take, this the man, he no sitting with me. I say “no auntie, you can’t sit this way. ‘Kay this a man, he no sitting with you.” SubCo mean, su-, everybody allowed here, everybody’s respect each other, yeh, that’s why, now, this kind of service user coming now, difficult one. Difficult. Before not like this. Before everybody working independent, and now, this kind of mostly, new, new, new one, somebody dementia, somebody sitting in the wheelchair. One new auntie start to see, she’s Bengali she coming yesterday, she, she, she say speaking Bengali only. Come to me, she, always hold the hand, she need to the time to give to her, sit with her. That’s why I told you first, ‘kay everybody need somebody come sit with me, talk with me, listen to me, everybody need this, this things. Everybody need these things.

Yeh

Because no time to, anyone. No time to anyone, to listen anyone, everybody feel lonely, yeh.

Definitely

The old age, stuff is, your body is finished, then you coming old. Your body is finished you know? And uh, family’s busy, nobody got time, you know? Nobody. Slowly, slowly, you can’t eat properly, so your blood pressure, you got sugar, you swell, you got pain here, these things. Ho-, how long, how long, nobody know there, how longer. Seventy, eighty, ninety, but, day to day is very hard to live like this.

Mm

Very hard. Everybody want to died. I heard like this. Here as well, I heard like this “I want to die, I want to die”. Everybody want to died. Because health wise, feel lonely, no ambition, you know? ‘Kay, ok, I want to watch my children grow up, I want to do this, I want to do the wedding thing… nothing, finish everything, everything is finished. Old is very hard, very hard. Nobody want to live long, everybody want to independent, walking, walking, going, but is not our hand, you know? Ho-, how, how, how long, seventy, eighty, ninety, these things. The care home, very, feeding somebody for a year, he don’t know where is he. What’s the life?

Mm

What is the life? Nothing life, no family coming to see them

Its hard isn’t it?

Yeh, sad things. Sad, sad things, yeh, just coming like prison. I call all this prison, the care home is prison, one time you come inside, when you died then you go outside

Yeh

Is like prison, some people nobody coming to see them, yeh. How to look after care, how to independent the care, yeh. Person depend on the care, how give you care, some care just for money, just… not bothering, no inside feelings, you know? He didn’t see his, my father like this, mother like this, mm. You can’t change that your colleague, yeh, manager, everyone, can’t behind always, ‘cos he trust us. He trust us, dinner time, lunch time, he trust us, you should be feed here, you should be eat properly. You sometime go into room, somebody give the food to in the room, he trust us, ‘cos you liar, you tell the truth, he eat or not eat, you know? But depend of the person

Mm

Depend of the person, tell the truth or not. But I’m always keep honesty, I’m, I’m, if somebody not eat I tell them. No, not, not eat XXXX (1:00:04) told me, just support some people here, to let to feed hiself. You, you, support me, support the person. I say, “this is nothing for me, care home people are here to open their mouth, that’s two second, put in the food”. I feel satisfied, if I feed her somewhat, he say, he eat, he eat, some satisfy. I’m no- not, sometime, I’m not give the time to ok, lets eat self. Take thirty or fourty of them, but I don’t know, I feel satisfaction for myself. I’m, I’m sit here, I, I give the food, he eat two chapatti, he eat this, make me satisfy, I don’t know why, but I feel like this. He sleeps as you support the best, support Mr XXXX (1:01:00) ‘Kay, and, erm, make me lazy, look when you not here, he didn’t touch the food. I say “maybe he had XXXX me”. This is my satisfaction, I say, we have lots of colleague, nothing is staff short. That’s why I got time to, you know, I got time ‘cos he pay the money. If pay the money, I make sure he eat something, you know?

I think that’s a nice way…

Huh?

That’s a nice way of thinking about it

Yeh, this, this, this, my thinking. ‘Kay, least I’m give the chapatti, two chapatti, I’m satisfied. After I’m cleaning, work everything, and clean otherside, yeh. Maybe he’s right as well, let to little exercise, but my satisfaction, satisfaction like this [laughs], this is me [laughs]

[laughs]

When I’m not here, he coming as well, I don’t know. Somebody feed us, somebody me, but I’m working, this is my set of instruction. Yes, yes, before, last week Frida told me as well, I sitting uh, give the tea as well, but XXXX (1:02:13) like to feed himself, I said “yes, two second” [laughs]

[laughs]

This my satisfaction, this my satisfaction. That’s why, I’m doing like this.

That’s excellent

Yeh [laughs]

Erm, I think I’ve sort of run out of questions that I had to ask you, but is there anything else you’d like to add? Or any stand out memories of working at SubCo that…?

Uh, I told you memories, good memories

Mm

Everything nice. Different to my other work

Yeh

I got lots of confidence here, and I brought my honesty [to] work here, my honesty work here. Trust my, my manager, trust me if I say anything, he “yes, she’s right”

Yeh

She trust, that’s the big thing. If, if you, if somebody trust you, this the big achievement, big achievement

Yeh

If I lie, I tell the liar. If I’m mistake, I tell sorry, I tell her “yes, I done mistake”. If if I did a mistake I just accept these things. If ask me somebody XXXX (1:03:31) this is a lie, like, if I done something you ask me, tell the reason why you done these things. Not suddenly shout me

Yeh

Let me chance to explain me. Maybe, my behind thinking different. If I say something, you take two way: positive or negative. This is totally different. If I say something to any, anyone, uhh, maybe she not like me, that’s what she done. If she didn’t know she’s my friend, she know me very well. She, she done for me things, totally different. Positive or negative. That’s the… if I done something, somebody ask me, can you just explain me why you say this word to me? Otherwise SubCo is brilliant, yeh.

Mm

But, uh, I think this job’s, this year because I buy new home in Coventry

In Coventry?

Yes, I’m moving there, I’m moving there

How long left have you got at SubCo?

Uhh, maybe, end of year.

End of year?

Uhhh I try to end of year, because we settled now there, moving buy the new things, everything because uh, new house, we buy new things as well

Yeh

Because uh, here is too expensive. That’s why my husband, and mother in law, my mother in law give the house, sold them, we sell it, and uh, I tell my husband “here, we can’t buy another house, and mortgage” XXXX (1::05:10) that’s why, my husband is sixty one year old, lets go to countryside and less work, more time by self. Enjoy the life now.

That seems like a…

Yeh, and ‘cos I work, I told you, 1984, work. This much of hard work: day, night, I work. Kill myself

Yeh

Yeh, my colleague told me, “you not retire easily!” Yeh, because you killing yourself. ‘Cos I need the money. That’s why. Now, I want to spend my life to look after myself. Yeh, that’s why we decide like this. Otherwise, SubCo… I told my, uh, everyone, “we miss you, miss you”. I said, “yeh, you miss me, but one thing I’m thinking, maybe future, I, somebody need me. Some auntie, some uncle, where I’m working other place in there, maybe I met the people, if I’m, go to my life how to come in my, other people my life.

Yeh

This I believe. ‘Kay, I’m not this much carer, without me you can’t…. Yes, your place is different, this is my work, I done my job honestly, that’s saved. But, if not, you not going other people my life. How to make my other friends my life. Lots of people come in my life, I’ve worked so many place. Its good my life, new people in my life. I got chance to other, new people, to the help other one. This my thinking, this my thinking yeh. Maybe coming my uh, if I’m not behind this XXXX (1:06:54) I’m go to new house and work, uh, care home anywhere like this. I job, I like this job kind of job. I work like care home as well.

Yeh

Day centre or care home, this job because I love this job. Then maybe I want to see other person, I help somebody, God give me more, more, more knowledge, more help to somebody. If these people didn’t go my life, how to come in new person my life?

Mm

This I believe.

Yeh

Yeh, he says “you a hard, hard, hard, hard”, I say “no I’m not hard” XXXX (1:07:29) This the reality, this I’m thinking, I’m working this much, everybody gone in my life, I see the new people. Two year I work with you auntie, before two year you didn’t know me, I didn’t know you. Here, coming, going, coming, going. Auntie, uncle, coming going. Colleague, coming, going. New job, coming uh, everybody going. This is, work, is work.

Mhm

Nobody sitting, one end. No, no, nobody stay. You give the heart to my name, “we miss you, this is beautiful. Yeh, I make XXXX (1:08:10)

Yeh

Yeh, that’s it.

Thanks then

Yeh this my life story [laughs]

Yeh, thank you so much for…

No problem, no problem. I try anything

No, no, not at all. Thank you

Yeh, yeh.

End (1:08:24)

Interview Details

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Shirin Memi

Project: Growing Old Gracefully - SubCo

Date of interview: 19/07/2018

Language: English

Venue: SubCo

Name of interviewer: Francis Ball

Length of interview: 00:29:58

Transcribed by: Francis Ball

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_12

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Interviewer

Interviewee

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[00:00:00]

Could you tell me where you were born?

Er, I was born here, in the UK, in, up in West Yorkshire, in a town called Dewsbury.

Uhuh. Is that where you family lived at the time?

Erm, yes.

And what did you parents do when you were growing up?

Oh gosh! I can’t remember. My mum was a housewife, and I think my dad worked in a bakery.

Bakery?

Yeah.

Uhuh. Erm, and did you… Was your whole childhood in Yorkshire?

No it wasn’t. When I was about five, six, we moved to South Humberside—it’s now North Lincolnshire—to a town called Scunthorpe.

Uhuh.

And I stayed there until I got married at the age of eighteen.

Uhuh.

Yeah.

Erm, and then did you… Well, I guess you moved in with your husband.

Yes.

And where did you… Where did you move to, or stay in the same area?

Erm, no London, I lived in this… When I moved to London—not far from here, Forest Gate, about ten minutes away from SubCo… Yeah, so then I’ve lived here for almost twenty years now.

Wow.

Yeah.

Was it a big change moving to London?

Course. Of course it was. I think Scunthorpe’s a really small town, and really small town, shops close very early, and it was predominant-, predominantly a white area. And I remember when I first came to London… To me, when I see somebody who’s white, erm, they spoke English; but when I came to London I used to see a white person and they used to be speaking a foreign language. And I used to just be shocked, and I used to just stand there and stare at them, you know? But took me quite, quite a long time to get used to that, you know? ‘Cos coming from a place like Scunthorpe when… I think Scunthorpe, they’re quite racist there as well, but in London nobody really cares about what you wear, what colour your skin is… I don’t think I ever got called Paki or anything here. I don’t… No, actually, in twenty years, I don’t think I’ve been called a Paki or anything. But when I go back to Scunthorpe, when you’re walking down the high street or something, somebody will come and say something to you.

Even what today?

Today, yeah. Especially now I think ever since 9/11, and you’ve got all this thing happening with Trump. There’s been a lot of, there’s obviously a lot of tension between the cultures. In Scunthorpe, what’s happened is a lot of immigrants have come in, so you’ve got a lot of Iraqis have come in, a lot of people from Somalia have come in. And they have, not taken over, but if you look on our high, main… We’ve got this main road called Doncaster Road and Frodingham Road, so because of their communities are growing, they’ve obviously started renting up the shops, and started taking over the shopping side as well. So you do get a lot of trouble outside the shops, like my, you know, when there’s one fight between this Iraqi, an Iraqi, twenty other ones will turn up. One phone call twenty of ‘em will turn up. So I think things like that happen, tensions just grow even more.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Having such a community that is so visibly…

Yeah, ‘cos even when my dad—he’s passed away now—but obviously my brothers have taken over his business (he had a butcher and grocery shop). I mean, that’s been vandalised so many times

Wow.

My mum as well, outside her front gate someone actually wrote ‘Isis’ [Laughs] in permanent marker. Yes, I remember reporting that to the council as well. Yeah, so it still happens.

Yeah.

I think from then, from when I was young, we were just called Pakis, but now it tends to be more, ‘cos we’re more Muslims.

Mmm.

So I think that’s why we tend to get picked on a lot more.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It’s interesting that sort of strange shift in…

Yeah. In their thinking, yeah.

Yeah.

It’s like, ‘Pakis are taking over our jobs!’ and now it’s like ‘Muslims are terrorists!’

[Laughs]

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I think, even like when we were young as well, I think when we used to get called names like, ‘Pakis! Go back to your own country!’ I can remember like nobody really did anything about it then, ‘cos I think, if I remember my brother, his mates, they used to be quite young, but now they’re a lot older, you know, if someone called my brother a ‘terrorist’ or a ‘paki’, our brother would be the first one to just punch someone. He wouldn’t take it. So I’ve seen that shift as well in the people who I knew when they were younger, you know, how they won’t take that stuff, and people in the new generation, we’re talking about the teenagers now, they won’t take any of that rubbish as when we were there we probably would put up with the name calling and behaviour.

Yeah. So what was Forest Gate like for someone from this sort of small, Lincolnshire town?

Like a new world! Honestly it was like shops I’d never seen, erm, especially Green Street. Er, where we live in Scunthorpe you couldn’t get no Asian clothes, no Asian vegetables, it was, there was nothing. And this was just like, ‘Wow!’ It’s like a whole new world. And I remember I used to go to Green Street every day; every opportunity I used to get I used to go out shopping. And even my family, when they used to come over, they used to just absolutely love it, ‘cos we’d never seen anything like this.

Yeah.

And then I think I remember even when I left, arm, Forest Gate and I used to go to shopping centres—where did we used to go to? I think Brent Cross, I think…

Uhuh.

Either that or… I used to think, ‘Wow!’ I couldn’t believe it. ‘Cos it was like a new world. Scunthorpe’s a small town. You had a small high street, you know, a local butchers, local fishmongers, British, British Homestores we had. You only had one supermarket that time: Safeway…

[Laughs]

… I remember. And that is all we had. Yeah.

Yeah.

I XXXX [00:05:25] I think. Marks and Spencer’s as well, yeah.

So, so what did you do, arm, when you came to London. Like was it a job or were you…

No, no.

… a housewife?

It’s stupid, actually, I just got pregnant. And then I had my first child and then got pregnant again [Laughs]. So I spent a lot of time being pregnant, bringing my children up. And then when my son started full time school, he was about five, I thought, ‘I can’t be a housewife no more!’ So I did some level 2, level 3 courses, because a nursery nurse, worked there for a while. Then I got bored with that and I think I decided, ‘You know what? I think I’ve got the confidence to do a degree and become a social worker!’

Oh wow!

And that’s how I ended up here at SubCo.

That’s excellent.

Yeah.

Wh-, where did you do your degree?

I did it in Havering, at Havering College. Yeah, so that took my five years, ‘cos, erm, I think what happened was I was ready to have a degree, and then I found out I was pregnant with my, with my third child. I was like, ‘Oh God! What am I gonna do? What am I gonna do?’ But, you know when sort of things are just like meant to be? I’d managed to find childcare for her, so… A nursery actually opened up, literally, at the bottom of my road. And then that new thing, you know? You get fifteen hours for free for child—and you’re working… not if you’re working. You get fifteen hours free if they’re under… as soon as they turn three. And the manager was really nice; he let me take it as flexi. And then something happened at my husband’s workplace: he wanted to leave and in order to keep him there they offered him working from home, so he took that on as well. And I was thinking, ‘That helps me out even more!’ So the days that the nursery wasn’t open or if I was running late from university then he would come, he would pick her up, and look after her. Yeah.

So it all worked out?

You know like when something is just like meant to be?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so it was like… It was really easy. Like in my class a lot of parents struggled with childcare. I couldn’t say that not even once I struggled, at all.

Wow.

Yeah.

Was your course… Were there lots of, sort of, parents on your course then?

Yeah, it was mostly… nearly everyone on my class were matura students. There were a couple that got pregnant while they were studying as well.

Yeah.

A lot of them, erm, erm, dropped out the course. They couldn’t take the pace. In my class I think there was only three of us left in the end. We were the mums.

[Laughs]

Yeah. All the youngsters… Well, there was a couple of youngsters from Essex I can remember. They all dropped out by the second year of the course, you know? They couldn’t cope with the coursework.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And after you graduated did you, sort of, find employment quite easily?

Err, I was already… I was here at SubCo on placement, on my final placement. And I’d finished my coursework and everything, but because of some technical things happening at college we didn’t do our dissertation until very, very late. So, arm, I was doing my dissertation then Taskin managed to find a lot of funding and that… You know, I obviously came for the interview, got the job for two of the projects. And I’ve, I’ve been here I think four maybe five years now.

Wow.

Yeah. And I’m not leaving. I’ve actually about to start another course from next September.

What was that in?

We were thinking, Taskin wants me to do a practice educate course. So, erm, I went to an open evening yesterday, and they’ve changed it so it’s actually a masters course now, and so… I’ve spoken to Taskin about it, and hopefully I’ll be started that in September, so I’ll be taking on two students, and I’ll be overseeing their placements.

Oh wow!

Yes.

That’s really cool!

I know. because the one project’s ending now. To be honest I was saying to Taskin not a little while ago, ‘I don’t think I could ever stay at home no more. I could not be a housewife any more.’ I’d get bored or I’d fight with my husband all day…

[Laughs]

… ‘cos he’s at home just so got nothing to do [Laughs]… Yeah…

What were the first projects that you started when you came here?

Erm, when I came here it was things in daycare, so we’d do a lot of advocacy casework in downstairs in daycare. And then, er SubCo we, er, got funding for two projects. One’s a carers project and Reaching Communities. Both working with Asian elders above the age of fifty. So I divide my time between the two projects. Carers is coming to an end now, at the end of November time. Yeah, but Reaching Communities with carry over for another two years. 

What’s reaching communities about?

Reaching communities… It’s basically we tried to get A-, Asian elders over the age of fifty to try and get them fit and healthy and try and integrate them into the community. So part of our project, what we do, is we go visit other areas of Newham and try bringing people on our project with us, so they try, maybe, instead of saying in Forest Gate, Manor Park, where they’re from, they’ll integrate into different other communities, making friends with them, starting to make use of some other resources that are available to them.

That sounds really nice.

It is, it is. I think now we’re in our third year you can see how it’s working now.

Yeah.

You know, some more… Even some of the, erm, some of our participants as well, you know, in three years you’ve seen them… From what they… There’s one particular lady I remember, Shapla actually started befriending with her. We’d managed to get her coming to our Health & Wellbeing sessions on a Wednesday, but the lady who first came in and the lady you see now two years later, it’s like completely different. Yeah. So we see a lot of, lot of that in our clients.

What sort of like change of behaviour…

Change, change of behaviour. There was one lady I remember her daughter rang me up, and I said, ‘Look, just bring her to our session and, you know, we’ll, we’ll do a bit of befriending with her’. And I remember every ten minutes, ‘Call my daughter, I wanna go home. Call my daughter, I wanna go home.’ And now, she doesn’t wanna leave. You know, every event we have at SubCo, anything we do with our projects, she’s there; any trips we have, she always… She absolutely loves it. It’s helped her, but it’s also helped her family as well.

Yeah.

‘Cos you know I think her daughter always used to be really worried. I remember speaking to her on the phone, saying, you know… I… Daughter lived in Ilford, ‘‘cos I can’t be round in this area’, so the lady actually lived in Manor Park, she goes, ‘I can’t be with my mum and leave my husband and my kids alone in Ilford’, you know, ‘Please, I really need some help’. But now, because she’s with us, she spends most of Wednesday with us, and, you know, like today there’s a party organised at the Trinity Centre, so she’s there today. You know, and if we’ve got something else going on she’ll come to that, so it gives the daughter a break as well. Yeah, what else? It’s not just getting them out and about with, erm, the help of things like Dial-A-Ride. So we did the application of that with XXXX [00:11:48] benefits, so she’s… especially with Dial-A-Ride we do do that for a lot of our clients because we know carers can’t always take them every day. So if you have Dial-A-Ride sorted they know we can just make the booking for them and, yeah, they’re free to go without having to ask anyone.

Yeah.

Yes.

Good. Erm, does the advocacy, is that like an important part of the work SubCo does?

It is. I think that takes, erm, a large chunk of our time. Yeah, the health and wellbeing sessions would be like we’ve got something set every Wednesday, or we have an event, or we have sessions elsewhere. But advocacy takes a large… Especially when we have some complex cases as well. Erm, it’s not just doing the advocacy work: when you have to work with other professionals as well. It’s just waiting on them a lot, lot, a lot of the time. Waiting for an email, waiting for them to say, ’Yes, I’ve done this. You can go ahead and do, do whatever role you need me to do’. So that kind of take, takes a lot of time. Yeah, that’s one thing in our report I always mention. That’s one of the challenges that we do have.

What, just working with these other…?

Yeah, ‘cos at SubCo I find that we’re quite fast. If we say we’re gonna do something, we will just get it done, you know? If I don’t do it this week, it’s written down on my post-it all the time: ‘I’ll come in on Monday and get it done’. But I think with other professionals it just takes a lot longer.

What are the other organisations you work with?

It’s just a lot of, you know… For instance we might do an assessment on somebody who wants to come to day care. But what will happen is, erm, we’ve done our assessment XXXX [00:13:19], you know? We’ve calculated it’s gonna cost so and so much but for that person to attend. But we can’t allow them to come to the centre until brokerage. Arm, we’d have signed it off, gone through the panel, and stuff like that could take months, you know? Sometimes it takes a couple of weeks, so… Especially what I find in my case, always the ones you want to come in really early are the ones that take the longest. And it’s always constantly, because as soon as we send a referral we get an email, ‘Ten working days. Don’t contact us’. And even if you ring up in them ten working days, they’ll say, ‘Well, you know, it’s not ten working day yet, so we’ve got to wait, then…’ Even then, they don’t contact us they always contact families. So we do say to them, ‘Can you keep us in the loop?’ but it never happens. And then there’s like ringing the families to find out, ‘Have they rang you up?’ They don’t know. Then we have to ring social services, or, you know, ‘What’s happening with this?’ Yeah so it’s just, just really strung out process really.

Just chasing people up.

Just chasing. That’s, that’s what takes up a lot of our time, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What are the issues that you advocate for?

It could be absolutely anything. Erm, we do things like benefit work… Erm, even a simple thing like somebody needs dial-a-ride. And to some people… I can remember someone close to me at… ‘Well, that’s not really much, is it?’ I went, ‘But you don’t understand. When you apply for dial-a-ride how much a difference it makes to somebody’s life, especially somebody who’s isolated, somebody who can’t use public transport.’ And dial-a-ride’s not always that easy, especially if a person… It’s automatic qualification if you have, if you receive a certain benefit, but if you don’t, then you’ve got to get medical reports. And even the way that you write the form as well, you have to make sure… ‘Cos they always ask you, you know, ‘So-and-so’s got a certain, erm, medical issue, how is that preventing her from using public transport? How does it affect her mobility?’ So, as time goes on you kind of like learn how to write things properly so that you don’t… so that whoever’s assessing them understands that, yeah, this is the issue and they definitely can’t wait, can’t use public transport.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Erm, and you said that your, is it the Carers’ Project…

Yeah.

… is coming to an end in November?

Yeah.

So what, what was that…?

That was working with South Asian elders, looking after somebody who’s over fifty years… A South Asian Elder over the age of fifty. I mean, that’s been quite successful I think from when I was… ‘Cos I do a lot of the database, I think we’ve managed to have contact with about two-hundred-and-fifty carers so far. So that would, that would be anything from giving information, doing advocacy work, getting them to come to some of our sessions. Yeah, I mean I think that’s been quite successful as well, if you look at… But I think back on some of the cases, you know especially when they came to us, a lot of the time they’d come to us at the point of crisis, so you know, they’re looking after somebody, they find their role so hard, nobody’s helping them, they just don’t know where to turn. And then, you know, we’d go in and explain what are your rights as a carer, try and get things like carer’s assessment. And where are they caring… if, if we know they do fit the criteria for a day centre, we’ll try and get them to come to SubCo or wherever, Chargeable Lane… We’ve got a few others, erm, day centres here, to give the carer a break as well. So we work mainly with the carer here. And then, when we finish our work with them we’ll also try and get the carer out and aobut a lot more, so we might refer them to the Reaching Communities project who’ll carry on working with them, and finally get them out and about. And do like education, jobs… Yeah, we’ve also got something we call mentors and peers. So the people that we’ve identified, ‘You know what? They’re actually very independent.’ And we think they would be really good at empowering other people like them, so, you know… We train them up, and we get them to work with, er, people who’re obviously not as confident as them so then they are able to go out and do things themselves. And that’s been quite successful as well.

Excellent.

When you come to one of our parties you’ll probably, I think… Yeah, Christmas Party… Or no, you know our celebration coming next month? They’ve organised something for that? You are coming aren’t you, that one?

Yeah!

Yeah. So you’ll see them there, yeah.

Excellent.

Yeah.

Erm, do you have any sort of stand-out memories or kind of proud moments or just good times at SubCo?

Erm, you know what I, I think I always remember at SubCo is our parties. I, I… Have you been to any?

No, no.

No you haven’t been to a… Erm, they’re just… Everyone comes, they’re just so happy, especially when they get up they dance, and when they look back at the pictures. Something funny will always happen: somebody will say something, somebody who doesn’t know how to dance but thinks they’re so great gets up, you know, all like, everyone will be laughing at them but they don’t care. You just… Things like that just happen and you always, you always remember that.

That’s excellent.

Yeah. There’s I think one of my, I think one of my favourite trips was we went to… I can’t remember where it was, but we went to a steam train, but I remember that it was just such a lovely day, and we were out in the countryside. And we had quite a large group; I think it was a coach full. I remember that that was a really nice day, ‘cos we were on the steam train and a lot of the elders got up and started dancing. And even some of the passengers who were on there actually joined in and started dancing with them. The conductor came, I think to check what the noise was about, then I think he saw they were enjoying themselves so much he just left us and went. Yeah, so that was… I think, think that that’s probably my favourite trip.

That sounds really nice.

Yeah. I can’t remember what it was.

Yeah.

Some, somewhere, yeah.

Do you, do you go on a lot of trips?

I think when I was a student and at the beginning of when I started working on the projects I did, but we’re just so busy now that I just get tired. Yeah.

That’s a shame.

It’s like instead of a trip… I love to go on a trip, but I think, ‘I’ve got to ring so-and-so, I’ve gotta fill this form in, I’ve gotta do this home visit. And if I don’t do it today it’s not going to happen next week’. Yeah, so, no, don’t go on as many trips as I’d like to.

[Laughs] What about away days?

Away days… I didn’t go to this year’s away day. Erm, ‘cos I think by the time we got told I already had something planned for that day. But, yeah, we do go to away days. They’re quite good for the team to get together…

Away days… I didn’t go to this year’s away day. Erm, ‘cos I think by the time we got told I already had something planned for that day. But, yeah, we do go to away days. They’re quite good for the team to get together…

Yeah.

… erm, what we plan to do for SubCo, you know, as employees, what we expect from them as employers. Yeah. I think we all get together brainstorm sort of how we want SubCo to XXXX [00:19:34] on, so they’re they’re quite good, yeah.

Yeah. Lots of the other staff I’ve talked to say it’s a really good work atmosphere, and quite open and…

It is. I think they’re we’re allowed to say whatever we want. So anything we’re not happy about we can discuss with, erm… ‘Cos it’s not just management, it’s our committee members as well. So, you know, we can tell them, ‘We’re not happy with this. We think something needs doing at SubCo.’ And, you know, they take it on board because obviously they’re, they’re not, they’re there for both our sides, the employees and the employers, so it’s quite good. We’re a like a little union aren’t they? They’re mediation. Yeah.

SubCo union.

Yeah.

Erm, where do you see SubCo sort of going from where it is now? What do you think’s gonna change in the future?

You mean in terms of our projects, erm, er, what I wold really like to see is I’d like us to be on par with the statutory services. Only because I feel that as a voluntary service, the way we work, we could offer so much more than what statutory services can offer. For instance, when I was doing my placements I did about ten days in statutory. And I found it was just form filling. You’d never get to sit down and get to know your clients. You know, once you’ve done that assessment, it gets passed on to someone, they’ve got issues, and someone else will take the case on, and you’ll never really like get to know your clients. But here we start something off and we’ll see it to the end. As I said, you’ll always know, that, you know, this is the person. If someone says to us, This happened to that person’, or ‘They did this’, you know, I would know this person is not capable of doing this, because I know them so well and they wouldn’t say this. ‘Cos we know them so well, and even with statutory services, when you’re a voluntary organisation they don’t really think much of you. That’s what I think. You know, when they have their multidisciplinary meetings, or even a safeguarding meeting, if someone’s coming to our day centre, they’re known to our projects… We could probably give them so much more information about that person than they have on file. Because we know them, we visit their homes, we’ve probably spent time with them at parties, you know, we get to know their families. There’s a kind of like, ‘No…’… Well, not ‘Kind of’, we know we know a lot more about them, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So I really do want SubCo to be working with statutory services, and actually be recognised for the input that we can have, you know? We are quite important.

So what’s, what’s the relation between SubCo and statutory services? Like where do you, sort of…?

I think right now we just think that referral, we’ll send a referral to, erm, to them saying, ‘So-and-so wants to come to a day centre’, or, ‘Someone’s care package needs sorting out’, ‘Someone wants to change their carer’… So it’s kinda like, like on a professional whatever you need to know kind of basis.

Yeah.

Yeah. I would like it like, you know, when you’ve got a safeguarding issue, you know, especially if its someone of South Asian that fits into our remit, why don’t you ask us to come in and, you know, we would maybe go in first and see what the issue is. It could just be something nothing. I think sometimes… Because we work with South Asians… It could be we know people’s culture as well, and what somebody else might see, ‘Oh this is quite wrong’, you know, we could go, ‘No, this is quite normal. This is what, what, this is what they do. It doesn’t mean that, you know, it’s a safeguarding issue.’ And then we could report things like that back. I think in the long run it would save a lot of time and money as well.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What, what sort of.. I mean, are there any kind of examples you can come up with just off the top of your head about things where statutory service might be worried about a safeguarding issue?

To be honest, we’ve never had any… We’ve never been involved in any safeguarding. So, the only thing we would do: we would report something then that’s it. So we’ve never been involved in a case or anything like that so I can’t really comment. But we would like to do that kind of… I think, especially our staff have got enough experience and skills to go in and, you know, maybe help out on certain cases.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Erm, for a role that presumably, like you said, a lot about making relationships with people, are there any characters that you’ve met at your time at SubCo that you’ve particularly like enjoyed spending time with?

Erm, there’s actually one gentleman I think his case was quite serious, ‘cos it kinda went to safeguarding. I remember I felt really sorry for him; he was such a nice gentleman, he had dementia, and I used to go visit him at his home. This was like my first case when I came in here as a student, so, obviously, I think I felt an attachment to him because it was my first case. Yeah, I remember he had dementia and a few issues being around with his, his wife and son. I used to go visit him at the house, then he fell ill and he was in respite. I used to go see him there as well. And he was just one of them clients I had a bit of an attachment to. And then he moved away from this area—went up to North or South London—and, erm, a couple of months later we found out he’d died. He fell down and died. So I think he’s one of them clients I’ve never ever forgotten.

Mmm.

Yeah, so he’s always sticks in, n my mind as well, you know? I think he’s one of them cases where I think, ‘But what if I did this?’, you know? ‘What if I said this?’ You know? Maybe he’d still be here today, but… You know what I said to you about statutory and voluntary organisations? We’re only allowed to do things up to a certain amount, and then statutory take, take over, yeah. Just one of them… Yeah, he was, he was probably the client that I remember the most. Yeah.

Is it hard obviously working with elders that, you know, some of them do just die, I guess, at some point?

It is hard, especially, I think especially some of our health and wellbeing sessions you’re just so used to seeing them. They’re just like part of your, they’re like your family. They’re part of your life. And, I think, you know, now that you’ve asked me that question, some of them, if they weren’t there, you know, I would really, really miss them. Like yesterday, when I went in to Trinity, two of them weren’t there. They’re the quite lively ones in the group. And the first thing, ‘Where’ve they gone? Why aren’t they here?’ so you notice their absence straight away.

Yeah.

Even the ones that complain a lot; you get so used to their complaining just the way they are. But I think because you’ve got that bond with them, we’re known them for like three years now, we see them at least once a week and they come to all our events. We’ve done some kind of befriending advocacy work with them. Yeah, so they’re like part of your life aren’t they?

Yeah.

Yeah. So if you do… I think when they’re… If they’re not around you would really miss them, yeah.

Is the Trinity Centre… That’s fairly new thing, right, that you’ve had that space there?

Our project it’s… We’re working with the Trinity Centre and Hibiscus Centre, so it’s like a joint initiative, but so it’s only recently, I think this year, I can’t remember, we’ve actually hired some offices there, so we’ve got offices here at SubCo and we’ve got some at Trinity as well. It does make life easier…

Yeah.

Especially with the paper work an typing things up. You don’t have to wait ‘til Monday to type everything up. Yeah.

Erm, I think I’ve sort of reached the end of the questions I had, but is there anything else you want to add, or any other memories? Or is it…?

Mmm… Yeah, I… When I first came to SubCo, I think before that I used to be in a placement in Leytonstone, and, erm, that was just predominantly white. Everyone who I worked with was white. And I remember, everyone used to say to me that, ‘You Asians, you’re so lucky. You Asians just all look after your own.’ ‘Cos a lot of them, the older people we worked with, had no family, their children didn’t really care about them… And I used to think, ‘Yeah, you’re right’ And then, I remember when I came to SubCo I did have that thing in my head, ‘Your own look after you’, meaning like your kids look after you, or your family look after you. When I came to SubCo I do remember that it was just the same. Everywhere you go. Yeah, so I think that was quite upsetting for me as well. I do remember one of my reflections I was, I was actually writing about how upset I used to get when I’d go and work with a client and, you know, they were like XXXX [00:27:26] didn’t have food or had no one seeing them, but their kids couldn’t be bothered. So, yeah, I think that’s one of the things. I think SubCo’s kinda opened my eyes to that. Just ‘cos we’re Asian doesn’t mean we’re any better.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, and I… Also as well I think here we have people from lots of different religions and cultures as well. To be honest, since I moved to London, I’m actually a Muslim Gujarati, so I only kinda just like stuck within my Muslim Gujaratis as well. But I think it’s been quite… The reason I… Mixing with the Sikhs, Hindus, Tamil people, it’s actually been really eye-opening, ‘cos I think even for myself as well you, ‘cos you don’t mix with any other religions you’ve too built a stereotype of them. But it’s nice to know that they’re just like us. They’re not any better, they’re not any worse, they’re just people, innit? And I really like that everyone gets on. We don’t bring religion or race into it. Whereas when I was on my other placement they always, erm… There was something about… I don’t know if you remember, Pizza Express they were selling Halal chicken, but they didn’t tell their customers, and it got reported on the news. One of our drivers came in: ‘So Shirin, what do you think of, erm, this news?’ I went, ‘What news?’ ‘Erm, about Pizza Express selling Halal chicken? Don’t you think it’s absolutely ridiculous we never got told it was Halal?’ He was just going on and on and on. I remember saying to him, ‘You know when you’re pissed on a Friday night and you go get a kebab right, from a Muslim owner? Do you care about it being Halal then?’ They didn’t say nothing at all. The thing is, I never got picked on for my religion anything like that here, but there, he started it. After that you could tell he just hated me, you know? And I was the only one that used to wear a scarf there as well, and they used to try taking me to places like the pub, and I didn’t wanna go, first of all ‘cos I don’t drink alcohol and secondly I think when you have a scarf on and you walk into a place like a pub everyone will just stare at you. Yeah, so that’s a reason. So you know, they used to think, oh I don’t mix with them, I don’t wanna be seen out with them… So, yeah… But I don’t feel any of that here, you know? Is it because I’m just Asian and I fit in? I don’t know. Yeah, but this is what I really like about SubCo. You’re not kind of like judged here, and everyone just gets on with anyone. Well you’ve been here Francis, what do you think of us?

Oh you know, I’ve been I’ve judged terribly Shirin since I walked through the door.

[Laughs] But you love our food don’t you?

Yeah, oh no it’s lovely here and everyone just seems so friendly so…

Yeah. But we’re like that here, so you do learn to get on with everyone here. Yeah. That’s it.

Excellent. Well, thank you so much.

The End

Not to be used without copyright.

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Shirin Memi

Project: Growing Old Gracefully - SubCo

Date of interview: 19/07/2018

Language: English

Venue: SubCo

Name of interviewer: Francis Ball

Length of interview: 00:29:58

Transcribed by: Francis Ball

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_12

Interview Details

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Asad Rehman

Project: Growing Old Gracefully - SubCo

Date of interview:

Language: English

Venue: War On Want offices

Name of interviewer: Francis Ball

Length of interview: 70:52

Transcribed by: James King

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_13

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interviewer

Interviewee

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It’s the twenty forth of July and I’m interviewing Asad Rehman as part of the SubCo project, and the interviews at the War On Want offices. Erm, would you mind giving me your date of birth please?

Seven, ten, sixty-six.

And where were you born?

Born in Pakistan.

And what did your family do while you were growing up?

My father was originally, worked in the cotton- the knitting factories. And then he worked on the buses.

Uhuh.

As a conductor.

What, what part of Pakistan did you grow up in?

Err, so I grew up in a place called Dinga which is in Pakistan’s Punjab. And then we moved to the UK when I was err, young and I grew up in Burnley in Lancashire.

What brought your family to the UK?

Err like many people from Pakistan migration err, came- like many, like much of the Asian community people originally- my father first came to Europe err, err for work and went to you know, the, the travelling through Europe, Germany and Belgium and then up to Britain, and then erm, the patterns of migration that we’d seen in, particularly in err, in the UK err when the Britain went out to the colonies and former colonies and recruited people for erm, for work erm, they went to certain parts of Pakistan, and err and recruited people for certain industries. So erm, the north-west, the small old cotton towns err, all err, err at the you know, had a, a Pakistani community primarily, primarily was Pakistani, some Bengali community, but mainly Pakistani, that were brought over originally basically to work in the manufacturing industry for their industries and erm, err and so in Lancashire and Yorkshire it was the cotton industry and was like one of the big employers err of course the manufacturing industry.

Yeah. Err, what were your sort of first impressions on coming to the UK?

Err, so I grew up in err, it’s- Burnley is a small working class town erm, it is err… it, you know, like many small working class towns there I would say it is, you know, bore the brunt of the deindustrialisation the err… Suffered huge issues of racism and racist violence. Err, the growth of the far-right, beleaguered community and we, at the time, the migrant community so going through the schooling system was you know, for like many of my generation was err fighting around primarily racists err, it was protecting our community from racist gangs. Our house was firebombed, as most places would say, I think of that era you know. Not suffering a racist attack at least once a week would have been quite surprising. Err, it was yeah. Err, as a community err, we were under attack a lot. Err, cos it was relatively small community that was trying to establish itself, it was a small community, in a place where you know, old- first the pits had gone, then the knitting factories were going and erm, and so it had issues of social and urban deprivation. Most of the Asian community lived in, sort of, extreme poverty, terrible housing, all of the normal sort of thing. And of course a lot of racism within the labour move- labour force as well, so err as Asian workers err, demanded better working conditions or equal pay, as white workers people were being sacked. My father was sacked from the knitting, from the knitting factories for, like many other people, for demanding, or wanting equal pay with the white workers, so there was differentiated pay if you were Asian or if you were white doing exactly the same kind of job. Erm, and then my father you know, err we lived in Burnley, there was no jobs, my father used to go and work in Manchester and again that was quite common for a lot of immigrant families, and the men were forced to move to other places to try and find work. My father even worked abroad, and went to Holland to work ‘cos there was more job opportunities, but as a family we still lived in Burnley. And yeah, I mean it’s what politicised me, it’s what first drew me to err anti-racist politics, Asian youth movements in the late seventies, early eighties, erm it was a phenomenon of course not unique to Lancashire, it was a phenomenon that was taking place all round the country: err, lots of racism and racist violence, and in fact it’s what drew me to Newham, because erm, as a community when faced with all of these attacks and, and thinking about how do we erm, challenge the everyday racist violence, the institutional racism, the failure of the police for example to respond, so those days you never used to have telephones in your house I remember as a child, you used to go to the phone box to ring the police because there were gangs of racists would be graffitiing all over our house, putting fire through the letterbox or would you know, be threatening your mum erm, and you know of course the police failing to respond, would not respond, would ignore, and then when we as Asian kids were defending ourselves as I say from racist attacks, I mean my school that I went to, the NF would openly sell their newspaper in the school, there was a lot of racist gangs, Paki-bashing was seen as like the thing to do at lunch time and at break. The very small number of Asian kids that were there or black kids that were there would barricade ourselves in classrooms at lunch for safety and then fight our way home, because you’d have to go all the way through this… It was a distance to get back home. And err, yeah so it was a, quite a, a, I mean it was a very, it was an atmosphere that of course erm, could do two things, it could leave you despondent or it could leave you err, asking those questions like, why? And, how do we change this? And err, and, and it was a time where also growth of a lot of black self-organisation where orga- communities were organising themselves, say demanding and reasserting their rights and err, when I was err you know, at school, we settled an Asian youth movement, there was a growth of Asian youth movements taking place all round the country. Also in very similar patterns, so then issues about self-defence, erm and then you know, as teenager I was, became aware of the kids of the Newham seven and the Newham eight and it’s what first erm, ‘cos never even knew a place called Newham. But it spoke to all of our err, it spoke to communities all round the country, which is why, for example, when people talk about err pivotal moments in black political history, they talk about the Bradford twelve in nineteen eighty one, and then they talk about the Newham seven and the Newham eight, because this was the communities that were saying we’re not taking it anymore. We’re organising, we’re building our own community resistance, we’re demanding err, our rights, we’re going to challenge the institutions, we’re going to erm, and, and you know, and it was err, I think… Must’ve been… sixteen, seventeen and I told my parents I was going on a school trip to London and I came to Newham on my first demonstration and came to support and erm, yeah. It’s err, and so after I’d, at university I was very active and of course very sympathetic to anti-racist politics, but as soon as it finished I was like I’m going to Newham, because Newham like- Newham was where the community was really ground-breaking, it was organised to an extent that it was erm, but it was also living and facing you know, a… People like shocked now when you say it, look at Newham now, and then you think about what Newham was like from the eighties, you know, it was a dividing line, if you went, you couldn’t move, you couldn’t err move to the south of Newham for example, the local authority had a colour bar, would not allow, would not give housing to black and err black people so that’s why all the public housing in the south for a, for decades was very white and the black community was congregated primarily in the north of the borough, primarily in private housing, terrible sort of poor housing. Err, it was forced to sort of be in those areas, and out of that cauldron of, of sort of politics and issues was people you know, emerged lots of different things including subsequently Eastwoods Trust and then SubCo.

Mm. Erm, could you explain sort of how you became aware of the struggle in Newham sort of living up north and how it was related to you?

Well, as I said I joined this thing called the Asian youth movement, and ironically it erm, my, some, like many families my mum was err, sort of housewife but then was doing sort of piecemeal work, usually at home sort of, you do sowing work at home, err its counted on how any pieces you do and blah blah blah. It’s toil work but for very, very low pay. And then ym mum decided for a while that she wanted to learn English so there was a scheme err, in err like a voluntary scheme and this woman had put herself forward, was an Asian nurse at the local hospital, and she came and err, she an Indian nurse, came saying she was going to teach my mum English, and a couple of weeks later she decided she didn’t want to do that, that she was going to teach this Indian nurse how to cook, how to do all these sorts of things. But this nurse was, she’d been active, and she would talk, tell us what’s going on here. She was new to the area, would ask what’s this? What we’re doing? We’d have, in the mornings we’d get all the kids together and then we’d walk together to the school because if you walk in small groups you’d get attacks, and then you’d have to protect the younger kids, and the older kids and, err and then it was the same when the day ended, we’d get all the younger kids in the middle of the older kids and we’d walk back home, because there was always you know, there’d always be some racist incident, I mean, either violent or Paki- you know, name calling or whatever. And then when you’re back in the area, the area itself would be subject to a lot of attacks. And if you went to the town, you know, it was very common for people to like you know, not only spit, pour beer on you know, err Asian women and put dogs, all the things they knew that people in the community were against, meant many people were very fearful of going into certain areas. Err, and she handed me a leaflet saying oh, there’s this other thing, there’s these people they’re working, they’ve suffered the same kind of thing, and they’ve set up this thing called the Asian youth movement, and then she was like great, that’s exactly what we want to do as well. We hadn’t- we called it something but we were doing that, young people coming together, protect their community, trying to stand together, and at the same time I was trying to better understand you know, all of these issues like why, and I was becoming more political, and I was reading stuff in you know, like why is there nobody in my school- why is there nothing I can see that looks like me, or tells my story, and of course at that period, if you, you know, apart from one Sunday morning program XXX (13:40) which was the only program aimed at the Asian community, everything else was programs that you know were, basically took the piss out of black people: Mind Your Language, Love Thy Neighbour, blah, blah, blah… all these kinds of stuff of course, casual racism was like an accepted part of, of, of everyday conversation, as was you know, and we lived quite near erm, Burnley football ground and erm, you know, so no matter when the travelling fans, or the home fans, we’d always be like if they can’t fight each other, they’d come and just trash our area, and then a bit of Paki bashing before they went home. And she, when she handed me those things, of those initial leaflets and like, oh wow, and then erm, when the Newham Seven happened erm, she put me in contact with them so we invited somebody up from Newham to come, talk, do a talk about what was going on there, what was this campaign, how could we support it and, you know, why this wasn’t an issue just for those people who lived in that area called Newham, it was an issue for all of us, ‘cos if we, if we lost the right to self-defence that was something that would affect all of us, but if we won, it was, it was part of our err, well we used to have slogans, stay here to fight, you know it was part of that kind of politics, we are saying this new generation, the first generation of kids going through schools, growing up there, we were saying we are not our parents generation you know, of course our parents generation were militant in their own way- this was the first really British born or British community that, that wasn’t saying we’re gonna be immigrants, they’ll one day kick us out, we’re saying now, we’re here, we’re not going to let you do these things, we’re going to demand that- we’re going to demand our rights. So erm, so that’s how I first got to know Newham, and erm, and the organisation Newham Monitoring Project which erm, was the organisation that ran, and was behind the Newham Seven and the Newham Eight campaigns.

Excellent, erm well before we go on to talk about the Newham Monitoring Project, would you mind talking a little bit more about the organisation of the Asian youth movement? Was it like, a national thing with sort of local branches or was it all very much-?

Yeah, it was a national err, err initiative. I mean basically it was sort of semi-spontaneous, but also err a framework, so you had erm, of course all the way through the seventies there’d been you know, black anti-racist campaigning, in the sixties there’d been lots of campaigning in terms of the immigration act and all of those. But a lot of those that, that campaigning had come via erm, traditional community infrastructure. So, Indian workers association, the mosques, the gurdwaras, the temples- they were the first fabric of my community really. Religious institutions were more than just religious institutions, they were the place where our community came together. There was a sense of we, there was a place where people you know, tried to help each other both in terms of you know, their everyday experience, but also you know, where you went for advice about you know, welfare, schools, blah and as a community, it was the community hub, but with the Asian youth it was the first time where we had err, a generation of people saying where, organising is not going to be in that place of just the religious institution. It’s going to be err, outside of that and its going to be in the our, like a united response. So err, the Asian youth movements were sat very much by the black movements, traditional Afro-Caribbean movements, all under an umbrella of calling themselves politically black, but the Asian youth movements were basically just trying to organise the young Asian people. And as I say, for the time it was primarily young men because issues of patriarchy were in the community, but it was mainly sort of men- young men. But they tried to it in a very political way. So, part of it was organic, part was, you know, there was this national thing, so people had heard about it, err they were saying yeah, that’s what I want to do, but a lot of time a lot of the impetus of it came because everybody was facing the same things. So if you were in Coventry, the national front was marching, they attacked the community, if you were in Sheffield, if you were in Bradford, if you were in Burnley, wherever you were, what did you do? You had to band together, what’s this, what would that look like? Okay it’s the Asian youth movement. Oh great, so now I’m not alone. And, and for a community that’s only small in number and of course at that point we were, all migrant communities together were possibly, you know, about three to four per cent of the country. Erm, scattered all across, and minorities everywhere, so we were always the minority in every town and every city. The sense of having a bigger, being part of belonging to something bigger was really, really important – and also gave you confidence and it made you realise that your experience wasn’t some isolated experience, right and it wasn’t- there was something much more systemic about this and, and therefore the response to it had to be more than just erm, reactive in the sense of yeah we can defend our community but, and that’s level one – defend; but who’s going to force through the political change that’s needed? Well we have to be organised to be able to do that, we had to demand from our institutions and our schools, taking racist attacks seriously. So I was involved in a school strike, again we had all, all the Asian kids in err, and all schools in Burnley all came out on the same day about the failure of schools to respond to racist violence, because the same experience was happening, and that’s part of where both the religious institutions and Asian youth movements helped because you know, here was a place you saw the kids who were in the other part of the town, went to that school, and they all said exactly the same- everybody had the same experience. Yeah, we’re attacked in the school and the teachers turn a blind eye. We’re attacked on the way, in the way, on the way to school and nobody cares. We call the police, the police don’t come, they come they’re, they’re more aggressive towards, and they call us names, blah, blah all of this. And so, you know, went so then you are able to organise and say okay, why don’t we all go out on strike? Why don’t we force them? And that will make them have to take us a bit more seriously. And yeah, and it was also sort of err a radic- attempt to, slightly more radical- well slightly more – it was a more radical analysis of racism, and of state racism erm, than the elements of our elite community that were, that had basically were more traditional in the sense of, there was power and authority, the best way to deal with power and authority was slightly being a subservient way, you’d go to them for a cup of tea, you’d meet the police have a cup of tea, you’d meet the councillor- but it would always be within a closed room, it’d always be- and so it was, you know, a bit of patronage, like okay we met the community leaders, everything’s okay. And there was a whole generation of people saying no, that’s not you know- our power comes on the street and our power comes when we’re organising. It’s not going to- we have to force them to listen, we can’t negotiate. We’re not going to negotiate our right to not live free from attack, that’s not something that you’re going to be able to settle on, they should be responding. So it was a very different type of politics. And it struck a chord because of course it was the period and it was experience so, in some places people organised and err, err so in Southall in, in- called Southall youth movement, and in many places the, the sort of the impetus of it came from err, racist murders so when a racist murder took place, large groups of young people probably would come together, there would be a protest and people saw it happened again, there would be serious incidents or, it, it embryonically people were like connected so we shouldn’t- we’re all- we, we’re not all coming together when it’s just err, erm you know, to protest over the latest racist murder, we should be organised. Erm, not just for self-defence but also to make those demands. So it was a bit of both. So the more you heard, oh there’s a youth movement there, the more it inspired you to set up your own youth movement. But it, it wasn’t like oh, here’s a great idea, everybody, because partly we didn’t have the infrastructure to do that. In those days if you wanted to learn or hear about those things, it required somebody handing you a piece of paper with it written on or you being in that, you know, because that- how would you know what was going on even in Blackburn which was eight miles away or Preston unless you knew people. So how would you know what was going on in London- you could only read about what was in the newspapers or on television. And of course, that told you a little bit of stories, but you know, it was the Asian youth movement that was starting to publish and print stuff and leaflets, and of course NMP was doing that.

Yeah, erm, how- what was the effect of the school strike and how long were you on strike?

I was just err, it was just a day, I mean it was more symbolic. I mean it was trying to force the- both the police and the local authority to say err, so they would, they would respond to racist attacks erm, you know and it was also just more for us as a, as a sign of our own sort of confidence and strength. I don’t think it materially made a huge amount of difference err, and to be honest most, at least in Burnley, most of the time we were spent was, you know, physically defending ourselves, so it was, that was, that became like you know, protecting our isolated families who lived in areas where there wasn’t, much of a black community or Asian community in that area. But when I, when- I grew up first in Burnley, we lived in a very white working class area, very, very white, we were the only I think, non-white family that was living there. Within a period of like years we moved to another area where there was a small Asians- because it was just not- it was too hard being by yourself and there were families in those were subject to a lot of racist attacks. And sort of kids from the other areas would sort of go and help them fight the racists, oh there was that racist gang every night, they’ll come and smash our- oh let’s go and find them and… You know, it was, that was just the kind of nature of the political struggle at the time. It was as much you know, physical and about err, protecting yourself as it was- overtly with a political program. But one thing the Asian youth movement did do, it did help you understand what the politics of racism were. And for many of us, because we came from of course, communities erm, we were all from diaspora communities, and you saw what was happening. So when you saw the pictures of South African apartheid, or the bombing of Lebanon by the Israelis or you saw your own- you thought, why is it? Everywhere, you know, those who are not white they’re just being- lives don’t matter and why they being killed? Okay, we must fight, not only about racism here, but about colonialism there and you know, sort of fighting and standing up for the people of South Africa and Palestine was important. And, so it was internationalising our, our err experience and collecting it to a much bigger thing and erm. I think the Asian youth movement did a great job in terms of- I’ve still got my membership card from that period and it says you know, No To Racism, No To Colonialism, No To Imperialism. And, and that was a very political expression, you know, ‘cos it located struggle, no matter where you were in a much bigger picture. And that was erm, yeah that was so important.

Yeah. So what was it like when you moved down to London?

Well I, I first went to university. I went to university in Essex erm, which was, I suppose going from one weird place to another weird place. So err, I went to university in a place called Colchester, University of Essex, which has had thirty five thousand in the town and a campus university. And so the townies would be- the soldiers would- the townies beat up the black students. So when I went there we had a security mini-bus, so you could be able to go from the campus to your place, in the evening you would have a mini-bus, you paid twenty pence, you could then be safely dropped because the amount of people being attacked going home. So it was mainly women and black students would get priority on these mini buses. And its an area with lots of yeah, similar problems, I was by now I’d come from the Asian, Asian youth movement, had then been involved with the miners strike, went to university, you know, was very, very political there and still very active in lots of anti-racist struggles. So I knew Newham, I knew NMP quite well, because at that period we would you know, be in like the anti-fascist movements going out, trying to err, stop the NF and the BNP at the time, blah, blah, blah. And so when I, when I finished my university err, I was intent on coming to Newham, but I didn’t actually first live in Newham, I, I- the only place I could- I lived first in North London, then south London, but I was trying to volunteer in Newham, ‘cos I’d, I’d heard so much and learned, knew so much about this amazing organisation. And I’d come across NMP people all the time, erm and err at- and I knew people who, who then were- I was political active with who’d gone to Newham. And Newham at the time was attracting basically, every young black radical there was, was moving to Newham because it was like the cauldron of struggle. You wanted to help our community come to East London, you know, on every front, we’re fighting on every front, but it- I thought all fights, it was also incredibly vibrant. It was like this confident community was- and in this midst lots of other things were starting to happen, you know. Burgeoning art scene, burgeoning cult scenes, saying you know, still remember one of the debates: is brown the new cool white, is brown the new black, we were like no we’ve always been cool, you don’t, you might not know it. So the underground clubs that started you know, there was a lot- there was expressions of it happening all over. So yeah, so I mean, and then I was very fortunate to get a job with Newham Monitoring Project, so I started working with NMP.

Cool. Umm, would you mind, before we get on to that, just explaining a little bit about your involvement with the miner’s strike? And how erm, the sort of black political movement and that struggle intersected?

Well, erm… So I think there’s two parts of that story err for- as in there’s a bigger story which is about how the black community and the miners- miners err, I mean the connection between the both. And erm, a few years before the miner’s strike, there was a, an industrial struggle called the Grunwick Strike here in, in North London actually was there. And it was lead primarily by err, Asian women er, not young, elderly, middle aged Asian women, who were immigrants from- migrants from Africa, Gudjarati women. And they went out on strike and they were at strike for about a year, fighting for union recognition. And it became a, a pivotal moment in labour, in the labour movement because up to that point, and during that whole period of course there were large parts of the labour movement that were saying our real problem is black workers because they, they’re taking our jobs, they’re depressing our wages, they get blah, blah, blah. So you know, they were open- openly supporting, you know, racist and far right part- and much of the union movement was very hostile, I mean, the white workers and white shop stewards in many places were very hostile to black workers. But during Grunwick there was err, this was a, an attempt to sort of say we’re, we’re all workers. So these are workers fights, the best way to tackle erm, racism and best way to tackle sort of err, low pay, is actually all of us belonging to unions together. And in Grunwick, erm, the then Arthur Scargill lived in Yorkshire, brought erm thousands of miners to support their picket. And it, and it was like in the folklore right? People came, and those, you know, mass pickets and blah, blah, blah, and all that, but in became like all the miners have come out and.. so that was one part of the story. So there was like a- inside the community there was like a, was a- erm, amazing stroke, but there was a lack of, a sense of, of err, err of solidarity to the miners because of that. And in fact, later during the miner’s strike when the miners were err, being starved back to work when Margaret Thatcher cut welfare and cut all the benefits and blah, blah, blah, blah… A lot of temples and gurdwaras and mosques opened their doors and started feeding the miners with many people saying, we remember you stood with us. So there was a, there was- the political part of our community said we’re all in one struggle. There were, I mean it’s interesting for one, my first pick- one of my first pickets I went to I was told err, err fuck off black bastard, we don’t want you in here. Erm… but by the end of the strike you know, I was err, at the Royal Albert Hall and surrounded by miners and people crying as the you know, played the Last Pit in the Rhondda and the bands were mar- you know, all marking, going back and so many of the people in the miner’s strike say, really understand it, ‘cos when we used to see you riot in nineteen eighty one and Toxteth and Brixton and blah, blah, we’d think ah god, what they going on about. So now we understand what policing’s like, because we now have understood what that police violence looks like. So there was all- there was also this relation, this common thing, of an experience of racism err, an experience of policing, of the state violence against you, and overwhelmingly our community was working class so they instinctively understood they had a class solidarity. I remember my mum, who doesn’t really speak a word of English, looking at the news and then watching and she said that they, that man Arthur Scargill is a good man, he’s standing up for working people. It’s terrible what’s happening, go around all the aunties and go collect food for them, you know. And we used to do that, go around- these were poor working- Asian working class families, but they all would give something and we’d donate to the miners support fund right? Just cans, what they had and blah, blah. But it was a, it was a very, you know- it’s hard to describe how much it was, it wasn’t the miners that were on strike, it was like half the country was on this side of- and then there was the other half and on this side you had all this centre, you couldn’t go anywhere without people stood, I mean every bus station, tube station, people stood with, with buckets, support the miners, support the miners, you know, and it was, yeah, I wouldn’t say it was nostalgic looking back but, there were the big industrial union people, people understood what it meant in terms of fighting you know, and Margaret Thatcher had been elected. Everyone saw this was like a, a real attack on the power of, of, of unions. So there was this sort of, whilst individual workers and miners some were a reflection of society which was casual racism and all of those sort of things, also struggled, really forged that stronger sense of err, collective solidarity and unity. And reinforced those relationships that existed and there were you know, especially with the miners there were lots of really radical miners who you know, who would tell you about, and the first time I ever heard about Paul Robeson, you know who’d tell you about you know, the miners and Paul Robeson in the nineteen twenties came and signed to this and, and that they understood what global solidarity mean- meant, and so of course… So for a community that was also diaspora sort of had all this, there was a, a sort of a common vision of the world even though it was not necessarily articulated. It was, you know, for many people in the Asian community, they would say, you know, it’s… working people, we suffer, we’re the ones that are suffering and so they saw class solidarity along those lines.

Cool. Umm, when did you start working for Newham Monitoring Project and what was your role?

So I, I joined err NMP in nineteen eighty nine err, after university, and er, I- we were a, I mean, our titles didn’t really mean anything so we, we had a, err case workers in communication and blah, blah, blah, but literally everybody did everything together. So I joined small team, four people worked for NMP erm, and erm yeah, I was- everybody did casework, everybody did advise, everybody did campaigning, everybody did everything. You know it was like, one of those jobs you just, you did everything that the community needed and the job entailed.

What were the specific needs that you were addressing or particular campaigns that you worked on?

Oh, huge amount. Err, I mean so, I mean you know the history of NMP? Yeah?

Yeah, bits and pieces.

Yeah okay so. Erm, have you interviewed somebody about the history of NMP in this?

Err, yeah I’ve erm, I’ve talked to Unmesh Desai so far, so be interesting to get your take on sort of, trajectory of the organisation there. Erm, but other people I’ve talked to sort of erm, even if they didn’t actually work for NMP were obviously aware of it and sort of protested alongside and organised alongside them.

So, so Unmesh, I mean we worked very probably, very correctly tell you about, about the formation and, and those first, that first probably two decades of the work that he was doing. So, you know, yeah I mean it came out of the, after the murder of Akhtar Ali Baig, err, I mean it was err, erm… It was very much the community saying we keep having to, you know, come together, why don’t we have our own thing just to tell us the scale of what was going on and then, err- and hats off to Unmesh because he came with a political vision, and he, he, and he was able to really err, help erm- I mean there was a lot of very political people, so there’s some of the original founders are actually, some of them are still around, some of them were also err, responsible, people like Gorshan towards Eastwood Trust and Gorshan Aman and all those… Erm, and, and literally they ran the most important campaigns in the country, I mean literally: Newham Seven, Newham Eight, but also the idea of community organising, a black community organising the idea of you know, telephone service, twenty-four hour emergency service, being able to- people going out to support you if you’re under attack. Understanding our cases were about supporting individual families but then building the power of our community to affect institutional change. Running hard hitting campaigns, never being afraid to- we would now talk truth to power, you know I think the Met called us the most sinister, damaging and divisive group operating in London, because we were uncompromising. We stood with our community and that also meant about how we were operated. So we were er, we were all in an advice centre together with Eastwoods Trust, we had an open door policy, you didn’t need an appointment to see anybody, and we would never turn you away, no matter what your problem was. We would run open advice sessions from the front, but erm, because we knew for many of our community they would be sent from there, to there, to there, to there without anybody so we would, I mean we would give advice in different languages erm, and we do basic things like for a lot of people who even getting an official letter, not understanding what the letter said, still remember every day you’d come to the office in the morning there’d be a queue of people outside, just bringing in their post saying, somebody would here, just read and tell me what it says. ‘Cos of course people are so scared of the state right, so scared of something- if I don’t do this right, something is gonna happen, I’ll be kicked out the country or I’m going to be this and blah, blah. So there was a huge- the need in the community had these huge unmet needs and, and it was a time and, you know, the local authority was being challenged by us about racist er, about its housing policies, about racism within the local authority I mean, there’s err, err plenty of press cuttings of you know, I knew- of councillors in Newham at the time talking about pakis and wogs, and we can’t- you know, we have to be- we’re here for ord- well, the white working class. Who are all these immigrants? We have to get them out, we’ll never give them housing. And this was you know, Labour MPs, and of course Newham’s always been a bit of a one party state in that. Erm, and then it, you know, we, we formed I think the first ideas about community ser- ser- patrols on the street. We err, and the big camp- campaigns around deaths in custody, you know, deaths in Newham, I remember C. S. Gas, Ibrahima Singh, two- I mean, really thinking about institutional racism, thinking about state violence, state- police were- and thinking about the different forms of racist violence from the racist to the organised fascists, NMP was very pivotal in smashing the fascists in Newham, I mean they were getting a third of the vote in the south. Erm, and you know, Barking Road was the dividing line, you didn’t go past it but many, many people in all parts of Newham would, you know, from the heartlands of our community around Forest Gate would be subject to lots of attacks and so those you know, having an organisation that supported you, that did your casework, that challenged the police, that looked for an instit- that challenged the local authority, brought in the best lawyers, brought in and, but understood our, you know, we were never going to win without community organising, and so from the demonstrations to the pickets at the police stations to the door knocking and… doors, and you know getting people on to the electoral register to vote out the BNP and vote down the BNP, you know, to physically defending the community. I mean NMP literally did everything and, and it was, and it also supported communities all around the country where people were facing very similar things, NMP said this experience is not unique, we’ve a lot to learn- we’ve a lot to share and learn and show solidarity so people in Newham would be supporting people in Scotland, in Wales. We did- we ran, you know a lot- the campaigns around for example all the erm, err prisoners who had been basically err, were victims of unfair trial, so Cardiff Three, Tottenham Three, you know, doing all those two, like more recently to the de Menezes’: Jean Charles de Menezes, shot dead in Stockwell, we ran his campaign; to the Lawrence’s, to Roy De- I mean there was, I think for a period of, you know from the eighties probably to about two thousand there was not s- there wasn’t anything happening in terms of around race, racism and policing and fascism that NMP either wasn’t central to, created a, inspired it, thought about it, I mean what that- and that was what Newham was able to do. It was bringing together so many people and creating this like, vibrancy of a community that- it was the everyday interactions making people thing great, yeah, yeah. So that issue and that issue, there’s a real link, why don’t we do this together? Why don’t we do that? Or, here’s an unmet need or here’s a huge injustice, how do we campaign around it? And that, as I said, that’s what sparked everything from the Asian Underground, to the Asian Youth- I mean, Asian Dub Foundation, to you know, goodness gracious me, and literally it was like this incredible sort of like, bloom of lots of different things happening because of course you get attacked in the clubs, you won’t get in the clubs, so you start opening your own clubs. You know, club nights, you know there were colour bars everywhere, blah, blah, blah, you know. So suddenly people thought you know, for, particularly for the Asian community ah, you’re not cool right, you had nothing, and then the Asian underground were like no we’ve always been cool, and you know, everything from the bindis to the.. suddenly been co-opted by mainstream society. Which in one sense was horrible for, for how all that process- but it was also a recognition that, you know, this was a community that was err, very, being much more confident, and you know, and our reach was very much all the way across East London, so of course all the stuff that was happening in Tower Hamlets, err the election of Derek Beacon, the BNP, the Rights For Whites campaign. You know, things that now have an echo as to what you know, err people always said you know, why is it the far-right able to grow and strengthen the way that it’s done in across other European countries for a long time. And because there were, we smashed it- we never allowed them to get beyond where they wanted to do it, and now they are, so this resurgence of the Free Tommy campaign, and the football lads and so- The, the fact that, you know, twenty four per cent of people said they would vote for an extremist anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant party shows you the deep well of racism that exists in society, but it also shows that, that never allowing to have a populist movement you know, was really important and NMP played a huge part in that. I mean really a central part in anti-fascist action, a central part of like, really promoting the no platform idea, you- no platformed them ideologically, politically but also physically. You defend our community, you don’t make, you don’t stand back from that, and that was a, a very radical kind of politics but it was politics that everybody in our community immediately understood and supported and, and you know, there was a huge level of support for, for NMP. A lot of times people actually also never realised it was NMP because we always also ran very much campaigns as the campaign, because we always said no, it’s unlike what you call the traditional left parachuting into areas for their own benefit, want to sell newspapers. We were intent on building community resilience, so you built around the family, you built it around the institutions and the organisation. You brought them together and you connected those and so a lot of times it were you know, defend the dean campaign, justice for Said Tehran memorial camp-. They would always- they’d be erm, campaign networks that we set up for specific campaigns and not always as, as Newham monitoring project. But we did everything from festivals, we did like you know, people’s festivals, anti-racist festivals in Newham and you know, on a few thousand pounds to have, you know, thirty thousand people come to a festival, a free festival in Newham. We had, you know, lots of top bands play for us, because suddenly we were you know, we were everywhere, we were doing things and that, and that, and we were constantly thinking about that, how do you take the space away from the right? How do you bring- create political culture? What does political identity look like? How do we act in solidarity? So erm, we used to take lots of young people to the north of Ireland and that was a very conscious decision, because if you’re in Belfast or anywhere else, a lot of times the only black person you’d ever see was a soldier. Err, and, but here in, in the UK you know, whilst there was an all- there was an understanding of oh, well, you know no dogs, no blacks, no Irish, well a lot of times the, the, the, the, the, the common experience of the Irish community and the black community erm, hadn’t been err, wasn’t being brought together. We intended to try and do that, so erm, at the time there was a running joke that when the Sinn Fein people come they would have err, black, there would be- we would provide security at their meetings and it was important symbolism for an Irish community to have, to see their leaders Gerry Adams having black stewards and, and us going to Belfast and meeting with families from people who had suffered, you know, whether from plastic bullets- because there was a politics of public order policing, how we knew these different communities being policed and so lots of very, very similarities about, oh, you mean they built a fortress police station? Oh, it’s a very- it’s nigh no longer police on the street, it’s in vans, oh it’s saturation policing and what does that mean? And how- and so there was a lot of learnings that we were also learning from each other or how we were responding to that, what does that mean? What is the police strategy around that? Okay, ah actually there’s a whole politics of, of what the state does when it thinks about suspect communities and what that means and how it addresses those and therefore what- how do we build our resilience to those things?

What was erm, sort of police reaction to your work like and how did, how did you sort of interact them with the demonstrations and sort of stuff like that?

They were scared shitless. They were literally scared of us. They would- they would err, I mean it would be, it’s an, it’s an- we’d had an odd relationship in the sense that you know, we would write to the police or you know, our letters would be like, hard, demand- call them racist, duh, duh, duh. They’d always respond, they’re want to, because we understood, you know, how you could CC the council, the papers, to this: how you make sure they feel under pressure to respond. And, you know, and every time we every meet with the police, they’d say have a cup of tea, oh there were a lot of cup of tea. But one time- what we want to know is why you’re not supporting this family, or why have you arrested this family? And the fact that when they’re, when they, for example, when they charge people we would have pickets of the court, the police station, we knew how to handle the media. We would be calling them out on television and so they were, they were always, they, they were faithful in the sense that, as I was saying, the deputy commissioner, Wyn George, he calls us the most damaging and divisive group operating, and you know, I mean… If you look back in terms of the archives they were, they were very fearful of this black radicalism, and in fact, if you look at you know, what mark now, all the papers that are released, they talk, I mean, the government talked about, there were, they feared this radical black activist that were blowing up, coming- and the strategy of, of how to break political blackness, reappoint community leaders, reappoint, you know, try and shift power from these community based organisations with a, with a political identity, to religious identity, to ethnic identities, to this and then, and to try and fragment the community. So you would have a myriad of just lots of different things rather than, you know, where is that commonality? Where are we coming together? Erm, but they were also I think, I think were, were… you know, were err, I mean grudgingly prob- very, understand I mean, there were black police officers who would then come to us and say it’s, you know, you’re err, what you’re doing and what you’re saying you know, they- yeah, they, they have meetings and they’re like, how do we stop this bad PR? What do we go? Why are- How are these people still able to do this and-? But it also threatened our funding and of course you know there was always a lot of pressure on you know, why is the local authority funding this radical organisation? Erm, and yeah, there was err, yeah…

Would you mind talking a bit about how NMP was closed up?

So err, I mean the NMP closed, I suppose, in the, err I mean initially, initially I, you know, there was erm, we were you know, a very much an important part of the community infrastructure in Newham. Erm, and what we’d seen at the time was more and more community organisations being attacked and being closed down. There was a shift from what we would call the community sector to the voluntary sector. The voluntary sector was only interested in services. Wasn’t interested in actually going beyond the services to say, what is institutional change that needs to happen? So the campaigning elements were being dropped off more and more local authorities. So why are we funding community organisations to keep, you know, come and harangue us right? We need five services, let them do services and that’s it. So, you’ve atomised the community, you’ve told people you’re dealing with it, but of course there’s no threat to you. And we, we stood out for a very, very long time terms of- and then, you know, there was a big political difference where, I mean, Unmesh has err, err I suppose our interpretation would be we were an independent community organisation and whilst there were people, many different political views in it, we were not a conduit or a platform for people who wanted to move into the Labour party and that the organisation would not endorse, and would not take actions that would err, that would help do that. I mean and, and that was a, a serious sort of political fissure and those in the local authority used it as a, as an excuse to then attack the organisation, saw it as being at a vulnerable moment and tried- and used it to try and close down the organisation. Erm, on the most stupidest of grounds. Like, you’re not giving value for money because you buy new sugar and toilet paper from the corner shop rather than the super market when it’s ten pence cheaper. Yeah, ‘cos we’re a community organisation, we’re going to buy everything from our local, we’re not gonna’ go and buy it from the- But it was all, it was a, it was then the XXX (55:20) I mean we knew that there was a, always been a, a sort of growing, and strong reaction from people in the local authority who really resented this upstart of an organisation that was challenging on housing, on literally everything, education, on housing and saying you’re not fit for purpose. You’re not good enough and haranguing councillors, haranguing officers, you know, and going to meetings and having sit down protests in the housing department and you know, so of course there was a lot of people like- just getting rid of this organisation. So they used it and erm, our building burnt down erm, miraculously just as while our cuts took place, so I mean, otherwise we would have occupied the building and, and tried to carry on. Our primary objective was maintain our service to the community, we, we you know, redirected our err, our emergency line and people worked erm, for a year without any funds, err and then we slowly rebuilt erm, and got not local authority funding, some funds from some trusts, some foundations and carried on work for, about another ten, ten, ten years. Erm, where I think it’s, it’s really and… the, it… you know, it closed down I suppose in the f- because partly some of the issues we were so successful at in terms of in Newham that our, around racist violence and on policing actually, you know, yes there were still issues but you know, this was not for most people the experience was not something now that they, they had so… you know, the new challenges were more erm. So we were very strong on the war on terror for example, we engaged a lot, we did the Forest Gate shootings, and supported the families there. So we’ve always stood- and we did a lot in trying to highlight the civil liberty attacks on what the war on terror meant, what suspect community- how criminalising the Muslim community during the war, and all of those things. But by the end I think it needed erm, it needed err… a step back to think about what was going on and the needs of our community and we were always set up for the needs of our community, so I would say, as a, as a building it closed. But as activism and NMP people were, most of us still live in Newham, most of us are still active, most of us support our community in many, many different ways and some of us are do it also at a global level or a national level, but still very much with the same politics. It’s about communities on the front line, it’s there reality, so it should shape your politics, and as activists we will serve our community and serving our community means, you know, being- standing, standing with them, not above them, and all of that kind of stuff so, yeah.

Erm, I know you’re obviously involved in organising anti-Trump protests.

Mhm.

How do you see the current status of, kind of, fascism and sort of, racism in national, local and global politics?

I think we’re in a, we’re in one of those moments, again, erm where you really err, need to look back and look at the lessons of some of our struggles erm, so when you look at a, at a global level we see of course this rise of the far right and authoritarianism and it’s taking place all over the world, and it unites, you know, of course Trump in the US, it’s Modi in India, it’s- It’s very similar and it’s walls, fences and these are all in the context of multiple crisis that we face so, say you know, we’re facing in a crisis of neoliberalism, inequality. So, and exasperated by climate change from everything that’s a resource. And these are all depriving more and more people to the right of a dignified life. Now the only way you’re able to maintain that is actually if you really talk about othering people, and therefore racism mutates to, not simply being about you know, erm some historical experience of, of er white communities and all those, or black community or- but actually becomes a really central part of most politics in the sense of you’re, it’s the, it’s how the world is respon- responding to these crises. And in that of course, more and more governments are, are, instead of challenging that narrative, are playing the race card. Which is why we still argue it in the eighties and the nineties: that the right, far-right will grow. When you have mainstream politicians saying, and normalising what the BNP or the Front National, or the Northern League, or the Austria Freedom Party, what all of these people are saying: and it’s exactly proven true. Because all of those parties are now saying why vote for them, right? Vote for the real thing, and once you’ve normalised their agenda, then they’re able to construct this heady mix of, which is, talk about inequality and injustice, make of course, as a white working class communities, it’s white communities – feeling the brunt of neoliberalism and austerity. Play to your feeling of white identity, and this idea that that’s under threat err, and have a really easy scapegoat. And it’s the Muslims and the immigrants, and err- So I think we’re at err, we’re at the, at the stage where all the hallmarks of, of a consistent fascist revival are there, right? The idea that we’re not talking about right wing but actually fascistical, neo-fascistic parties are now in government in so many countries, or lead the polls, or have a huge influence over the mainstream parties, you know. Yesterday I was reading Der Linke, the German left party is now going to start talking about German jobs for German workers, I mean this, this is all moving right. When Denmark says you know, if you live in a certain area and you commit a crime you can have a, a supplement punishment to your- to the normal tariff, because this is err to enable integration, erm, err because err, these communities are living in ghettos, so this will force those in ghettos to move out of ghettos. Not actually poverty or inequality, and er, well Austria, helping a refugee is a criminal offence, or in Italy you can turn your boards back and allow- Things that they said, they used to say: oh, it’s not going to happen, black knights, exaggerating, liberal democracy, Europe will never be this far right, they’re only fringe, they’re only going to ever be on the street and physically threaten us, and we said no. It’s actually about their ability to, to- it’s a combination of institutional racism and their ability to influence mainstream political discourse which is as frightening as their ability to be on the street. And I think if we look at the free Tommy Robinson campaign being bankrolled by US foundations; when we see Steve Bannon talking about a new, far-right international; when you see literally every mainstream party saying roughly the same kind of things about immigration and detention, and about Muslim- and, and you know, you’ve seen it on the front pages of every Daily Express and Daily Mail. And of course they’re all saying the same thing, it’s the Muslim, it’s the Muslims, it’s the immigrants. So no surprise that twenty-four per cent people said- forty per cent people said they would vote for a far-right, a right-wing party more right-wing than the Tories right? So it’s like, we’re living in a- we’re increasingly living in a polarised world. To me it feels like, you know, that seventies moment right, where, what is the response going to be: is it that all mainstream parties would capitulate to that and move themselves to the right, which of course is very likely, or will there be a really challenge, and now, interestingly enough, more and more people are coming back and saying we need NMP to exist again, we need that politics to exist again, new young black radicals- ‘Cos I’ve been involved in black dissonance, and Black Lives Matters, and there’s a whole new generation of young, black activists rediscovering that and saying that’s the kind of politics we need to have. The idea of community resilience, community self-organisation, being routed in our communities, and being there and bringing ourselves and our skills to, to support our communities. Yeah. So do you mind just waiting one minute? I just have somebody through here I just need to…

[RECORDING PAUSES]

-Right in there, anti-trump stuff we were trying to talk much more about, it’s not just about one bigot, it’s about Trumpism, it’s about politics, and that politics is growing everywhere and so our resistance has got to be less about the individual and more about the substantive cornerstones of this which is economic inequality, anti-migrant, anti-Muslim racism wrapped up in bigotry, but feeding off you know, crisis that are actually very real and err, and you know, and err, err reflect the fact that I actually, there is huge inequality in this country, and of course there’s left behind people. Erm, just clipping back but, Burnley’s famous for – apart from its great football team, I’m a big fan, which I only used to be the only non-white face on the whole of the terraces, which was a scary, scary experience- I used to watch Burnley play from the away fans, never from the home fans because it was too racist to watch in the home fans, erm the, the Burnley hooligan fans, Suicide Squad, were notoriously affiliated with the far-right – erm, but Burnley had race riots in two thousand and one as well, and we elected thirty BNP councillors in Newham, and this also spoke partly to all this history of violence and racism and my parents were still living in Burnley and I was there during the riots but it also spoke to a deep frustration amongst white working class communities that had just been ignored. Been ignored by the establishment, ignored by the local authority, and just left. And so it was much as an anger from them about everything else as it was, but it was just easy to direct it as, at the- look at the Asians, they’re getting that, it’s the Asians, it’s Muslims, it’s the Pakis, blah, blah, blah. And it, and of course that’s very much part of what Trumpism is doing, what Modi’s doing, what everybody else is doing.

Yeah, erm excellent, well I think really my final sort of question is, if we could go back and discuss a bit about how you became involved in, or aware of the work that SubCo was doing. Would you mind explaining a bit about that please?

Sure, sure. You know, I mean as a I said there was a, in Newham there was a, it was a very vibrant moment where people were coming together, really trying to think about what were the needs of our community. And how the, and what the relationship was and what would err, what was needed. So out of that period you know, out of Newham Monitoring Project people were involved in NMP went on to set up Newham Asian Women’s Project, the local refuge and the women’s organisation now called London Black Women’s Project. Out of around that set of people, people were very- some of the same people and some people who shared- set up Eastwood’s Trust, were looking at err, err advice. And then, you know, and out of that people were also talking about housing and the needs of elderly and did, and so it was a very much like, oh, these are all great needs, alright how can the community infrastructure of these progressive organisations support that? And people who were on management committees would, you know, would be involved in, in creating the new management committee. A lot of times where people thinking about how to put bids together they were, you know, we were able to share a lot of experience and oh, we’ve got contacts here and we could do this, and using our political influence and our community influence in support of each other. So for example, when we had pickets, the Gujarati Welfare Association would, people would go and pick the Gujarati Welfare Association, they’d come and picket – all these elderly Gujaratis. We’d go to Hibiscus, which was the elderly African-Caribbean elderly centre and they’d come. And we’d go to Stardust, which would be the youth centre, so when Stardust was being closed down there’d be- we’d be there with them on the youth campaign, and when Gujarat welfare and the housing elderly, er the needs of the elderly, and they were being ignored in social services, we were there ‘cos we- and it was this reciprocal, because people saw themselves as we’re all part of this community, and we’re fighting for community assets, we’re fighting for community needs. And, and so SubCo really sort of emerged out of that, of that mo- that moment and really identified there was a need that was going to be ground-breaking, it was going to go out there and you know, and really err just as we’d done on race, they’d do on housing, they would do on that, they would be I suppose, you know, something to- for other people around the country to emulate and err, of course, subsequently they were. They were sort of, they were a hugely, for the time, that idea you know, err was, was innovative.

Did you have any erm, official sort of involvement with them through your own work or was it more sort of-?

We knew many of the people. Like I said, the people who worked for SubCo, the people who were in charge of the events that SubCo did, we would support, we would go to, we would lobby, we would be supportive and vice versa. Erm, er and you know, same political circles of people were, were there and when people worked for SubCo as, as workers you know, and were getting it off the ground, you know we were all in the same community centre, we were in the same advice centre, so it was always like, so what do you need? Oh yeah, I know how to do that. So it was very practical support I was giv- we were, you know, because we were all in the milieu. While there was other people around management committees and supporting them in terms of management committee but we saw it as, as there is a network of family or, you know, we’re family. We’ve got this mosaic of organisations that support each other, that are a part of this vibrant infrastructure that makes Newham, despite all of its terrible things, this incredible place because it’s, there’s a political vibrancy around it and creativity.

Excellent, erm I think-

That was a long, rambling sort of-

Yeah no, it’s been really interesting so thank you for your time.

The End

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_13

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_14

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_14

Interviewer: Francis Ball

Interviewee:

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Satnam Singh

Project: Growing Old Gracefully

Date of interview: 26/07/2018

Language: English

Venue: Eastside Community Heritage

Name of interviewer: Francis Ball

Length of interview: 90:55

Transcribed by: Megan Christo / Kay Stephens

Archive Ref: 2018_esch_GrOG_14

So I basically teacher trained in Hull and there weren’t kind of jobs up there so I came down back to Newham, well I lived in Ilford, but worked around mainly Newham and community involvement activist work I suppose. Yeah so I started working with the XXXX (0:00:35.3) Hall community basically involved in the unit. There was also a volunteer bureau they had, I worked there and over time got into teaching, in the early 80s in fact. So I started teaching first as a peripatetic teacher at Woodside School, then there was Cumberland, but as far as teaching properly, permanently I was based at Trinity School on Barking Road. Young people used to come from throughout the borough but mainly XXXX (0:01:15.7) area - so you had the Asian community going in from outside of the Canning Town area and the white young people around there. There were racial problems arising, I was only there a couple of years but saw that development of racial attacks and kids being attacked on the road, at a bus stop opposite the school, at Trinity School. And so I was quite concerned about race issues and equally the Section 11 money started being used for the first time and that money was supposed to be specifically used, and there’s been misuse like most authorities in Newham. Slowly we got round to using it properly but they misused it. So we were concerned with those issues and I think same sort of timing Newham Monitoring Project came about, I’ll go to that in a minute, as well as Stardust Asian youth club where Caroline XXXX (0:02:29.9) she was a community worker employed by social services. And she and I worked to develop the Stardust Asian youth club. We went to Kensington youth centre and over time, over four/five years, we built the membership from what was about twenty young people to about five hundred, four/five hundred members and the attendants came to about a hundred young people on the Saturday morning and they felt safe, supported etc. in that youth club which was on a Saturday morning. The youth service was not aware of the needs nor the concerned in the same way, primarily Afro-Caribbean young people and white young people but Kensington youth centre is where we moved to over time through pressure and getting the youth service to recognise the needs and thereafter we developed further. Alongside these issues was these racial attacks, the growth of BNP, National Front - various XXXX (0:03:47.4) different organisation. But the racial attacks are quite highlighted in the media and therefore it was apparent to young people about this idea of, you know, black young people or Asian people being outsiders, not part of the community. So we had, we bean to challenge these things, sort of on the one hand Newham Monitoring Project, Police Monitory Group as well as taking up racist cases - and on the other, supporting young people through the youth club and I had introduced them through knowing them from school etc. Those things came together with us calling a school strike around the Newham 8 and I was giving out leaflets at Langdon School and I was recognised and reported to the authorities and I was in between two jobs - I was leaving Trinity School and going to

[0:05:00.00]

Plashet School, XXXX (0:05:01 –Plashet Girls’ School?) So I was going to get a promotion through that but anyway, everything was on hold, I was suspended and you know the case was settled over time because we got the councillors to obviously XXXX (0:05:18.5- Labour?) so 40 odd councillors signed to the effect that no actions would be taken against young people or those people involved with the strike. The strike was first around Stratford Magistrates Court and then Old Bailey and a lot of young people did go past there etc. But they were also actively involved with some of the marches around these cases and therefore after others, the feeling was obviously through the youth fund organisation people, then their parents got involved in the marches ‘cos the youngsters went home, shared problems etc. and obviously the adults were aware of that anyway but they weren’t doing much about it. Now all of a sudden these young people weren’t accepting things, they were challenging and there was support for them. People like myself, Umnesh Desai (0:06:19.7) who was employed as a first worker at Newham Project, we worked together. Another guy XXXX (0:06:27.9) Patel, we three were close friends you know, for about ten years we worked on things and he was involved in Newham Immigration Social Advice Service. A lot of older people came for advice and support and so us working together, having access to the community at different age stages of the community and generally having a rapport with the authorities in terms of the council departments - social services, education etc. and then politicians, many who were on the left, you know, at that time it was more left even moreso than it has been currently and XXXX (0:07:22.0) prior to all that was Fred Jones and others who were leaders were much more to the left and we got on with them and were able to have things delivered like XXXX (0:07:33.0-interest?) education policy, housing policies where you know incidentally XXXX (0:07:39.9-victims?) perpetrators and those sorts of things. I think it was one of the first cases that in Newham where a council tenant was moved who seemed to be racist so you know, set a benchmark for these things. So on one hand we were doing things on the street from the organisations able to influence their policies etc. Much of the time we were in conflict with people as well as working with them so the police for example and with that I was also involved with the Racial Equality Council in Newham and I was a chair at one point and therefore had to liaison with the police and profile. But it was always seen as a conflict between the community relations role that the Racial Equality Council did and the kind of the anti-establishment thing that Newham Monitoring Project was seen as, and I was part of that, so there was a kind of conflict there. That other side, XXXX (0:08:53:00) were working with communities. Anyhow, through these needs were beginning to be met in a way they weren’t before. I have to acknowledge Karen XXXX (0:09:09.1) in much of this, she has unfortunately passed away since with cancer I think in the last five years or so. She was very much involved with providing these things and politicising I suppose you could say. And I certainly, you know, XXXX (0:09:31.0- can’t criticise?) working alongside her. So I think she made quite a contribution to this. But then you also had people like Umnesh and then those who were all really particular in their work. XXXX (0:09:48.6) was another one who played a role in various organisations - women as well as like the

[0:10:00.00]

domestic violence issues etc. Then also the Asian elders XXXX (0:10:05.7) I think she was involved in setting up and to some extent I believe she would have been involved in SubCo too. But this is more of a later development but gradually needs were met. But prior to this there would have been organisations like Gujarat Welfare Association and there would have been for Gujaratis, the XXXX (0:10:29.8) Federation and XXXX these people are no longer around now, passed away, and they were instrumental in trying to provide initial needs. In the same way that political organisations like Indian Workers Association nationally were doing things prior to some of the structured organisations now - giving advice and doing all those sorts of things, political as well as action as well as day to day advice and support. And they still exist but there isn’t the same role being played. I would say about from 1980 to 2000 I can recollect the kind of political developments. I would say things have slowed down generally and there’s been a shift to a right in the Labour Party. I think organisations not being so demanding or same sort of action, occasionally you get the national marches and so on but on a local level there isn’t the leadership, there doesn’t appear to be the leadership, they’re all working with and through organisations including the unions I mean their power has been reduced etc. So there isn’t the backing for workers in the same way that workers were able to take action. Anyway for my part I’ve had my ups and downs in different organisations I worked in through the teaching and then moved away, worked in Waltham Forest and then up to Derby in terms of career development. So I was a youth officer in Derby - youth community education officer. So I’d done my sort of promotional stuff and came back to Newham partly because I found the same barriers there over there and I knew work through my family with them they’d be here. So I’d been a couple of years- this is end of 80s beginning of 90s. When I came back to Newham I was involved with the community, the Aston Community unit at XXXX (0:13:03.6) Hall and thereafter into social services and I was a racial equality officer- well a senior racial equality officer. The race workers, there was a team being developed. The original social workers team had been moved on, working through XXXX (0:13:26) there were roles that had been changed so I came in from the outside as a senior racial equality officer and I think I was able to do things within in the department but less outside - still worked with various people but not the same impact in the 90s as we had in the 80s so things were slowing down. Umnesh well his part became a bit more political and more motivated personal interest of becoming councillor and then now he’s a GLA member etc. Umnesh Desai this is. He’d also made enemies I think within the project, Newham Monitoring Project, by now, people like Asad Rehman, XXXX (0:14:15.4-14:26.1 –names) various workers had been involved and came away. Carol BXXX (0:14:33.1 -surname) I can’t think of all the names but basically the various workers did make a very good contribution, particularly through the 80s, but some of them since the 90s but I took on backseat XXXX (0:14:46.5) from thereon. That’s in the early 90s is when SubCo I think was formed and those needs that were being met through older generations

[0:15:00.00]

looking after their own became more formalised service provision and SubCo was part of that. I’m trying to think of the workers from the beginning but obviously the latest to my knowledge who was managing was Taskin but I think XXXX (0:15:22.2- name) would have had a role right at the beginning. I don’t know what you’ve been told but basically check back on those details. Those people, alongside others, were involved in the political demonstrations, marches and so on. Initially it was me XXXX (0:15:41.5) price campaign, all these sort of landmark cases, thereafter there were cases but not in the same way, the action and demonstrations. So the roles that we played were primarily in the 80s not so much in the 90s so therefore my contribution through my involvement in SubCo would have been really limited but it’s more about them involved, engaged, like other organisations, with some of the political work that’s still going on. I think I’ll hold it there for a while.

OK that’s great, thank you. So if we could go sort of right back to the start and ask where and when you were born.

OK I was born in Punjab (0:16:44.8 –place) where many of the Sikh community have come to this country. I was born in 1951 and came here in 1961. We lived around the Liverpool Street/Aldgate area. My uncle had a shop and we lived above the shop and, like that, many early communities when they came settled with their friends or families like that. But we moved to Ilford in 1965 and we were probably one of the first Asian families, first one or two families off the drive in Ilford and I’m not going very far we were, now in (Mayfair, Aldgate? -0:17:31.1) road, so we kind of stayed round here one way or another. And I’m now coming on to 67, so I am elder myself I suppose, retired, and in between you know various involvements particularly around on the local level in Newham and Redbridge since, and wherever I’ve been up north, similarly in community involvement. In fact, some of that started when I was in Hull, doing my teacher training I did youth work alongside it, voluntary first then employed part-time and in a way how I got engaged with community issues. But that was in Hull so hardly anybody who was Asian up there then.

There’s something I’m quite interested in touching on sort of migration stories. Would you mind talking a bit about your experience moving to London from Punjab?

Yeah, well we were living in a village, I can’t remember much of it, I was only eight and a half, nine years old but what I do remember is obviously the poverty and basic living out there. And for the first fifteen odd years I didn’t go back so I was probably about 21 or thereabouts and I’ve been back several times since, in fact I had a marriage arrangement there, and got married here but engaged over there in ‘79/’80. When I came to London, quite a dismal place in those days- had smoke, smog etc. obviously since controlled, and the other part I recall clearly is the whiteness of snow and obviously as a young person your legs are shorter, so I remember being knee deep in snow,

[0:20:00.00]

I think it was in ‘62/3 soon after we came anyway, and maybe (0:20:07.7- once or twice in?). And I clearly remember a guy, we lived upstairs, didn’t know the language, a young person whose name was Alfie, he lived opposite. We’d lived in Artillery Passage, number 13, and opposite was where he lived. You could tell they were quite poor, they used to look outside the window staring across to us and I’m not sure what he used to say, I don’t think it was abusive but we used to ask if he wanted to come and play and join XXXX (0:20:40) in that way. I also recall some nightclub down the street and from what I recall it was mainly Afro-Caribbean attendants and in those days I didn’t know about communities and problems but I know one of my uncles who XXXX (0:21:08.4) he, because I had two uncles and my father, he got attacked one night but more for robbery I think, and the clan if you like went down with hockey sticks to sort out that problem, so you had to look out for yourself in that way, but that was then. In terms of school, this is going to Vallance Road, I can’t think of the school name, and we did used to have problems but you took it as young people fighting, didn’t know what racism was in those days. In fact that I wasn’t aware of race issues ‘til I was in my twenties, late-twenties ‘cos I went always to schools with white people, college with white people - another school fight as well. But I thought I was just fighting someone you know but he was prejudiced and racist you could say at the time, I wouldn’t have called that as a terminology so used to say it was a fight because someone was picking on you. So there would have been that but I wasn’t aware of these things until much later. So I went up north for teacher again with a white community, not aware of the racial expectations so I was not that self-conscious in the same way as I would be now and conscious about others you know being racist or dislike me because of colour or where you’re from etc. And that I think will have been my experience growing up, but parents, others would’ve had the problems at work, they would’ve just accepted it as probably I did, laughed it off if it was verbal, but obviously if it was physical then you would fight back. So it wasn’t really ‘til the late 70’s and the 80’s that some of this sort of challenging came about.

What led to your developing that awareness of racism?

I think it’s more working with young people in Newham, and seeing the other people getting abused and attacked, and support them as a professional, either as a teacher or a youth worker and so on. Because they complained, XXXX (0:23:47.3- concern, explain?) you could see what was going on as well, which I didn’t see maybe because I wasn’t physically attacked in the same way - I was rugby player, I was in a physical, strong weight-training etc. so maybe it was some of that as well that people don’t pick on you in the same way. But these youngsters were being picked on and you could see clearly the abuse etc. And it was quite overt and much of that has died down now that it’s not so open, not so obvious, probably more institutional rather than kind of direct racist abuse or attacks. Sometimes you get it, but not so much as it was 80’s and 90’s I would say. 2000 is what I would put as a landmark of how things changed.

Why do you think things started to change around then?

I wrote a Commission for Racial Equality in the 90’s, under (0:24:55.0 - name), who’s XXXX

[0:25:00.00]

Then we were challenging policies, formulating policies and I think the responsibilities were being put on authorities to do something, so for example, the police, the councils had a duty to challenge things, even if they had that earlier they weren’t really dealing with it, so some of this started being addressed, yeah maybe ‘90s. But the effect of that was probably 2000 on. Yeah, it may be different for different areas up and down the country but certainly London-wide I would say, from my knowledge and experience. But having said that you know, up North, there are probably other issues - you’ve got communal prejudices, from one group to the other, like Indian to Pakistani, that’s how they refer to it rather than Asian. We, in London, talked about Asian or black, politically black, etc. Over there, it was more broken down into Indian and Pakistani. So where you get Asian Youth Centre, Asian Community Centre, they got an Indian Community Centre and a Pakistani Community Centre, that was the kind of defined community. That probably was on the one part what the communities wanted, or thought that’s what they needed, and that’s how the provision was as well - to local authorities, not recognising what, how that community difficult, so they provide it separately. When I was in Derby, for example, XXXX (0:26:36.2) there, there was also an Afro-Caribbean Centre, yeah the politicians probably weren’t concerned or involved in the same way. But Derby was also under Derbyshire, so the county council, so the XXXX (0:26:56) a vast area, they would’ve been removed from the issues. So in Derby, there would’ve been I think Derbyshire was Labour, Derby was Tory, from what I recall at the time anyway. So the Tories being more to the right, Labour to the left, so that kind of difference. But also how politicians used communities to get their votes you know, so they would fund them accordingly to get their support. And I think that probably happened down here too, Newham, Redbridge, whatever, because those officers, those politicians either weren’t aware or if they were aware they XXXX (0:27:44) because they wanted to get their votes. So if somebody made an application, somebody else would, another community, so you can’t give one and not the other, so they kept on dividing that way.

You mentioned that Section 11 money, when it first came in, wasn’t being spent in the right way. Could you explain a bit more about that please?

Yeah, that was more of a provision for needs because there are extra needs such as newer communities arriving, and there are different needs in terms of workers and staff to be employed - there should’ve been civic staff employed to work with those communities with those skills. Initially the money was just thrown into the overall budget of the council, and they used it as and how they needed to, suggesting XXXX (0:28:45.3). And thereafter, when the Racial Equality Council became - there were conflicts with those organisations as well - but when they became more established, and I certainly remember this, we used to challenge the appointments and expecting certain clause of the Race Act we employed like Section 5, 2.d. to do with employing people from certain communities with certain skills - that kind of thing wasn’t happening and they were just advertising for jobs. And the XXXX (0:29:21.5) is one of those examples that we mentioned earlier - they expected people to have five years local authority experience, that kind of thing. Well, newer communities first might have not even been there or they wouldn’t have had jobs in the local authority for that sort of experience, so they were the kind of obstructions. Then you had to challenge that as well as you know suggest that positive action should be taken, and those various clauses - or for training vulnerable sections now - but those of various sections being used appropriately in adverts

[0:30:00.00]

and money applied in order to fulfil those needs - training, employment, particular services being provided.

What jobs did your parents do?

My father was a factory worker. He worked hard - often five to seven days a week, nights sometimes. My mother was a housewife. I think that was a pattern for the older generation at that time. The skilled and professional roles came about much later, probably for the second or third generation. In the late ‘70s, there was East African - Kenya, Uganda - those people who came from there, they’d been away from India a long time in Africa, so they had the awareness, the knowledge to have skills as well as financial power to invest. So when they came, the community started changing here - people started setting up their own businesses, some people got jobs, even those who were older had the experience, education I suppose as well. Through that, I think things changed. When I said about ‘80s, ‘90s, ’78/9 is when they came, Margaret Thatcher I think talked about being swamped in those days, and those Asians came at that time. Obviously immigration has been an issue over time one way or another, but they settled in their communities, so let’s say Leicester would’ve been the Hindu/Gujarati community; Bradford the Pakistani and Miripuri communities up north; I think London was more diverse, you had all sorts of people - that’s where the jobs were, that’s where the opportunities were, so again a lot of investment came in, people started doing things. And there was a culture change as well. So, let’s say us growing up would’ve gone out to discos and music etc. and accepted the English and European music. When the people came from Kenya and Uganda, they brought with them the Asian music, say, the Bhangra music for example. Clearly recall XXXX (0:32:48) in the 80s here. There were also others who became-- but they were one of the first Bhangra groups, and thereafter several others formed. I think young people started taking interest and pride in their own music, and people XXXX (0:33:09) would’ve had girlfriends going to places who would’ve been English because that was the community - white community, English community. Here now you have Asian young people mixing with each other at these functions, and more mixing and relationships formed within the community that way. As well some problems arose. So for example, you had intercommunal problems, you had intercommunity a bit more, the Hindu and Sikh community were a bit more liberal with their young people, and the Pakistani community a bit more - I’ll say I’m toward the Asian here, but there may be an Afro-Caribbean dimension but here I’m toward the Asian - they went along to the functions as Asians, but the Pakistani boys went not the girls. So they were therefore relating to Asian girls who were Indian - Hindu or Sikh - and there were those tensions within the communities about them taking our girls, or whatever it was, in the same way that white people would’ve said, look black people or Asian people are going out with our girls who are white. So those sorts of conflicts I recall clearly. Also, a culture of parents maybe not allowing them to go out and about in the same way, so they used to take time out of school to attend these functions, so Friday afternoon they would go off to functions that were sometimes organised in the daytime, in the afternoon, for that. Those were the issues,

[0:35:00.00]

probably late ‘80s, early ‘90s.

You mentioned the political conception of blackness, how did that meet these prior divisions along racial and religious…?

Yes, I think the Asian community was pretty united despite the issues. There were historical issues obviously in terms of India and Pakistan - they separated off - but here people didn’t have that baggage. But this issue came more to light in the ‘80s, late ‘80s, when Islam was being- become an issue with the West. So, the Pakistani young people in particular, maybe Muslims generally would’ve then related to that and become more aware of this, and challenging, abusing, I don’t know whatever the problems and issues were. But with the Afro-Caribbean, I think where they were initially coming to be accepted because they had the advantage of language - they had English, and were able to mix with white people and culture, music, etc. - the Asians weren’t, had their own. So sometimes you had racial issues where black and white people were together - black as in Afro-Caribbean - in groups and gangs, etc. as well. Asians were not part of that. Asians formed gangs like Bengalis around Brixton and all that- sorry, around Tower Hamlets - in terms of fighting and challenging racial stuff, but plus their own problems with gangs, with each other. And that shifted as they moved out towards- you know there was a ripple effect going from the centre outwards, so you know they moved from there to Newham, now they’re moving out from Newham to Redbridge, etc. so there’s a gradual moving out. And those communities who were there then started moving out further, but they also XXXX (0:37:26-29) people would move the next county, they’d go much further out. So Newham, and maybe Tower Hamlets areas, all those white people went out further, like the elderly went to coastal areas, sold off their houses and bought flats, etc. then you would have families moving out to – can’t think of places now – but Harlow, etc. you know newer towns, or maybe places along the route to Southend. This is the east end movement. I think maybe west London and north didn’t have the same movements in the same way, but the east did and it still continues up to a point. So the population changes demography of the areas affected therefore the needs and what happens. With Asians, tensions with each other to some extent still exist, but often they’re united. With Afro-Caribbeans, there still is this prejudice in race – the darker you are, the more likely you are to race the problems, in terms of Afro-Caribbean. So Asians come in between, and white at the other end. So Asians tend to relate more to white than to Afro-Caribbean. So they’ll accept the white more than they’ll accept the Afro-Caribbean. But somehow the Afro-Caribbeans relate more to white than Asian as well, for whatever reason. But the concept of politically black was about problems that were common with each other, you know - racial attacks, police harassment, etc. So through that I think the demonstrations, the challenging the policies etc. they were united on that, and when uniting, the way the terminology went was to say black, not in terms of colour, but we are politically black – that’s how that term was used. I don’t know exactly how it came about, but it was certainly used early ‘80s, maybe ‘70s too, but certainly ‘80s onward. I think it again XXXX (0:39:55) roughly turn of the century, around 2000,

[0:40:00.00]

Asians began to question that and the Afro-Caribbeans talked about them being black. They also didn’t see Asians being black, so that tension came about where you’re black and you’re Asian - black and Asian - or the local authorities using terminologies like BME, black and minority ethnic communities, or just ethnic minorities. Those were the different terminologies. And the other part being how you speak about political correctness where you can talk about people dark or brown or whatever, you know. They were conscious more of- to what BME was and black or Asian, didn’t want to offend you know. But politically yes, it was used as a term to some XXXX (0:40:54) but not so commonly, I think.

Would you mind talking a little bit more about your involvement in the school strike?

Well, through-- the Newham 8 case was to do with eight young people, who were arrested, they were members of our Stardust Asian youth club. One of them XXXX (0:41:26-name?) got involved with a fight and the other friends to support, and they got tooled (?) up if you like, to challenge these people and also to protect others, you know, they thought this other XXXX (0:41:44) gang was gonna come, etc. ‘Cos you get that threatening thing, once you’ve had a fight. This is ‘round Ilford school – there was a couple of areas like Warrior Square, XXXX (0:42:00) estate, so the white young people from the youth-- see these Asians attending their schools, mainly Asians, and the racial tensions between them. So these guys, what they did, they used to go to a weight training club near the Rosemary temple – Sikh temple – and what hap-- I think some of them got bars from there, but they also picked up other stuff. And when they went there, somebody must’ve called the police, and the police turned up-- I’m telling you the case first, yeah - they thought they were racists, because they were plainclothes, etc. and jumped out the car, they thought they were being attacked so they fought back. So they had a fight with the police, you know. They got arrested as more police came, etc. Ins and outs of it is a matter of the case, but then because we heard it on the radio, XXXX (0:43:09 –name) and I went to the police station to offer support, liaise-- we knew the police officers, or I knew them, and we wanted to offer them food, let the parents go in, etc. etc. Anyway, slowly other people got to know, there was a little demo, or a picket outside, and they got eventually released but the case went on. And we through the Monitoring Project decided to call a strike of young people as a way of protesting that there are problems in the schools and no one is doing anything about it. I used to teach in Trinity School, and I had a free lesson on that particular day towards the end, and so I asked my housemaster, or manager, to say “oh I need to go to the bank, there’s no point coming back, it’s towards the end of school”, so but yes, it was arranged that I was going to pick up leaflets from Newham XXXX (0:44:16) Centre on Romford Road, in Forest Gate. And so I went to the bank, got whatever I needed to get from there to demonstrate I went to the bank, picked up the leaflets, and we were supposed to give out the leaflets to various people like parents, hand them out and so on. But unfortunately, XXXX (0:44:37 -name) whose son was in my tutor group, Khalil (0:44:41 –Bhatt?)’s dad, he never turned up that day, and Ilford Recorder was there, XXXX (0:44:48) had taken place, so I had no choice but to give out the leaflets. So I was giving out the leaflets, and the headteacher came up and recognised me, and then reported me. So then I was

[0:45:00.00]

like I said, between the two jobs. I was getting a promotion, going to Plashet Girls’ School. That was on hold, and took a while, but we started getting signatures of councillors, and no actions were taken. Eventually, I was cleared, and you know, was told no action would be taken, etc. There was other councillors, like Amarjit Singh was a councillor. He didn’t wanna sign, he thought of himself as a councillor, he said, “oh I’m gonna be on the education committee, if you get sacked on your appeal, I won’t be on that board so it’s probably best if I don’t get involved”, you know, that kind of thing, and one or two other people might’ve had excuses, but on the whole - like I said - they were more left-wing councillors, they all signed up, the majority anyway. Plus, I think they could see what we’d tried to do- recognised-- and it was, in fact - because we’ve seen in a letter since - it was head of the Plashet School who complained and therefore-- then they realised that I was going there, so that’s how I got suspended from there. But we had various other problems before, like through the youth clubs thing, we used to challenge the youth service as well. So one time, I talked about Kensington Youth Centre but we wanted to expand the youth work, and we wanted to apply for a youth centre through an aid grand. And we had to identify premises, and the Labour Party had a premises on High Street North, and we wanted to go for that. XXXX (0:46:49) was the secretary of the Labour Party there, who obviously was a mayor recently but has been ousted now, he didn’t take a very supportive role then. And that particular time when we wanted to go for this, what happened was youngster went and decided to have a sit-in, into the premises and XXXX (0:47:18) was on etc. and you know the whole emulating XXXX (0:47:28). And while they were there, myself and (0:47:27) felt we had to support-- you know they were XXXX young people, but it was their decision so we’d support it. To go back to the strike, this is background to that as well. So they’d taken action, we supplied them pizzas and things, and they were passing messages up and down with a rope on a bucket, and they wanted to call the leader of the council there, Fred (0:47:53- name?) came there and the Recorder was told, and they were taking pictures and it was all front pages, etc. but all that publicity, we were seen to be behind it. so to some extent Caroline but me in particular involved in the youth club, was being challenged and saying, “you’re behind this”, or even if they didn’t say it, that’s how it was taken. So, when he came there, he said, “look, I can’t talk to you here, you know passing messages up and down, can you come down to the town hall?” and I drove them to the town hall XXXX (0:48:33) sat round the table, and they did say, “okay, we’ll give you use of it”, etc. - you can have the place, you can make use of it, in between somewhere there was a little fire as well, nothing serious but again that’s what angered the Labour Party as well, people like XXXX (0:48:55). I have a feeling they weren’t insured at that time so they were all worried but nothing much came of it, but we don’t know how that happened, who did that. It was either the youngsters - you know, XXXX co-ordinated, you don’t know what they were doing all individually - or might’ve been outside others. Similarly with the strike, you know I’m trying to say how I got a bad name and seen behind these things, same with the strike you had leaflets. So already we had supporters in the party, in the council, there were others who saw us as troublemakers. Similarly, with the inquiry I think of Newham 8, I had an understanding with Unmesh, so I took him along met the deputy leader at the time - the name escapes me for a minute, but Irish guy - he had a meeting with us and somehow we had an agreement. But what happened was, Unmesh went and told the press and

[0:50:00.00]

he didn’t take kindly to that, and blamed me for it, so again, these things you know kind of add these things-- so you had officers, the council, politicians on the one hand, then you’ve got police role liaison but on the one hand working with them and the other one XXXX (0:50:21) didn’t do much for my reputation. But you know I was happy that we were doing things and active. I mentioned Nasar Patel, we used to plan and plot and do things in the evenings. I used to go to school in the morning about 8 o’clock XXXX (0:50:43) 12 o’clock, after school XXXX (0:50:47-50) and planning things and doing things and producing leaflets. And you know the strike went well because as the distribution of leaflets took place, buses were provided, we had a good attendance and a show at Old Bailey and that was national media as well. And there was interest in these cases so there were other recording-- can’t remember exactly the programmes, but there were features of the youth, young people and the cases XXXX (0:51:27). In the same way, I think we worked with each other, people like in Greenwich XXXX (0:51:33) anti-racial project there, we liased with-- in a way the same problems there, when I was working at the Commission of Racial Equality, they were funding the local RECs and the Greenwich project had a problem with their local REC who were trying to take over that- some areas felt the Racial Equality Councils and MPs XXXX (0:52:04) anti-racist project should be working together and be funded together. But anyway they tried to take over and my friend XXXX (0:52:14) there whom I knew through the marches and demonstrations as well as through the race equality work called me and chaired a meeting and didn’t allow the officers of the REC to speak because they were the ones who were causing problems, and they reported me again- same sort of problems about complaints. Another one was from Redbridge, Iford, where Pam Ballantyne I think she was a chair at the time and somebody had applied for a grant who was a friend of mine XXXX (0:52:52) so he called me to come and speak at a grants committee to support. When I got there, they saw that the work was to be supported, and they gave the grant to this group but not the REC, so the REC complained that I was undermining the organisation XXXX (0:53:15). So now you had a couple of cases where they were gonna take action against me- they are the kind of problems I went through.

Could you talk a little bit about the Youth Centre, and how it got started and what sort of activities that you offered?

Yeah. I think initially XXXX (0:53:41) a social worker whose name I forget, an Asian guy, along with Caroline who started supporting them. They had based at Shaftesbury school, as I say, table tennis and that kind of thing, we played, so basic activities- there were not even 15/20 members, but I think it started because social services started seeing problems with young people arising, them get into trouble one reason or another. So these social workers started supporting the young people. That’s how that started. But when I joined on, first as a volunteer and then got employed, the social worker took a backseat, Carol and I carried on, she was liaison person. And we went from one part-time youth worker to a few youth workers and by the way the local authority employed us a youth worker as well through Section 11 funds, the outreach team. And later on- I was the first Asian youth worker in the area as well. Then XXXX (0:54:56) formed a network of Asian youth workers,

[0:55:00.00]

called a conference and meetings, etc. So initially XXXX (0:55:04 – names?) and some of those people, those who became youth officers in various areas were then originally part-time so you see their development as well. So this was early ‘80s, so up to then there was hardly anybody employed as youth workers around London, thereafter all this happened. Wouldn’t take the credit for all of it, just saying that’s how it happened. There were obviously initiatives being taken in other areas. So the Stardust, while it was Shaftesbury had a limited role, but after about a year or so we felt we could make the case for a proper youth centre, and we asked for the Saturday [??] and made a case for it and got it. But when we did it, a youth officer at the time John Boyd – he was a lazy so-and-so, he’d always say, “look I’ve got piles of work here” and yet he used to go out and play ruddy golf on certain days, you know that kind of thing. When this sit-in took place at the Labour Party hall, he said, “Satnam, you ought to be careful”, he was kind of warning me to not get involved too much on that level, anyhow, at that time. But so he wasn’t very supportive, so he XXXX (0:56:37-39) so he said “well go along to on Wednesday first” and we did but we started after a few weeks, we started mixing it, starting saying “look, you’re there now”, XXXX (0:56:53-54), we said it wouldn’t work but anyway the youngsters went, then the others came in because the Afro-Caribbean community youngsters were already actively involved and were dominant in that particular place, Kensington Youth Centre, which no longer exists by the way in East Ham that centre.

Whereabouts was it sorry?

Off the High Street North, near East Ham station. We came I think XXXX (0:57:20-23 – sth about youth centre?) social service provision then it got knocked down I think it’s not even there. The youth club we went to, as I say, the youngsters started, but then went when it got mixed, so we made a case for it again, so we got the Saturday mornings about 10 o’clock or so ‘til about 1 o’clock a session, so the attendance picked up on Saturday morning really well. The activities, apart from the routine activities of pool or snooker or table tennis, apart from that we had the Asian music, we got Tara Arts involved, the drama group. They did a play called ‘Chilli in Your Eyes’, a guy called Chilli actually threw red pepper in a copper’s face, he was being chased and then when he was running off, somehow that happened, and they used that as the title for this play and based it ‘round racial issues after Newham 8 XXXX (0:58:34) around that time in that area. So they based the play on that, and that play was then performed at Stardust. So we tried to sort of, if you like, reflect the community issues there and we used to have discussions, problem-sharing, you know, that they will have faced elsewhere. That’s how most of this support and XXXX (0:58:56-9) too. We were told that this was too political, but we said it’s not capital P it’s little p, and that was one of the XXXX (0:59:10) objectives of the youth service – social, political, recreational education. So that’s how we used it, and it was relevant and needed as well. And we felt that we were not being political in the same way as people saw it, we were providing the needs and reflecting some of the problems. I was alongside a teacher as well and the youth worker for the service, but various other workers came in Abdul Karim XXXX (0:59:49) he was a part ti-- a volunteer at first, then a part-time youth worker, and eventually became a full-time youth worker. So again we thought we made

[1:00:00.00]

a contribution in those terms as well, so the spiritual learning going on to professional development - and others, workers XXXX (1:00:09 – name) worker, I think by then we had a full-time youth worker for Stardust as well, so again development that way. The provision over at Labour Party hall, I remember involving a Bhangra group, so the young people being taught Bhangra, and so we were paying someone to teach that. They were performing locally so they became established as well. I can't remember their name as a group but that-- through the ‘80s, yeah. So I think all in all one way or another we did more than what would normally happen in a youth club, more than recreational activity.

Yeah. That sounds really great. You’ve mentioned previously your relationship with the councillor, how at times it could be good and it could be quite proactive, and other times it could be a bit more difficult. How did you see the relationship between the council and the Metropolitan police? Because obviously your relationship with the police was more antagonistic.

Yes and no. What it was, on the one hand, the councillors- there were some councillors more supportive than others, but we obviously related to whoever we needed to. And the way we were antagonistic weren’t personal. We’d, let’s say, go along to meetings and distribute leaflets, when the meetings affected other policy or discussion around certain issues, more relevant to some of the problems we’re referring to here – either race or community need. In terms of the police, when I was a chair for the Racial Equality Council 1985, for two, three years I think it was, he – the officer Peter Cartwright – was more close to the police, and siding with the police, whereas I would challenge him and the police as and how need be, reflecting the demands and needs of the community via the NMP. So, let’s say, on a demonstration, one of those roles that we would have is observers, see what’s going on and if they were to arrest the young people or whoever on a march then to question you know, why, how? But then the police would be quite dismissive at that time, they felt they were the authority, they would do what they like and remember XXXX (1:03:02) saying, “look, Satnam you move back”, I mean they would start by saying “yes fine you come along and watch”, etc. but where it came there and then, they would have a different approach. So we would challenge that accordingly afterwards or at meetings. There were specific times when I think, there was a particular meeting at Labour Party hall actually, where Peter Cartwright and I were sitting together and this guy Herbie (1:03:38 -Boudier?), he was a reverend as well, since passed away as well, he was chairing the meeting and the MP had called the meeting. And I think Paul Boateng was one of the speakers at that time, he was an MP-- Lord Mayor somewhere, and I think it might have XXXX (1:04:02) campaign issue at that time, Peter Cartwright wanted to speak but like I said, just as I didn’t allow the racial or the council people to speak in Greenwich, he wasn’t allowing him to speak, because he saw him as siding with the police, must’ve been around the march or something. So, he turned to me to say, “Satnam, you say something supporting me”, and I basically turned and said, “look he’s responsible for his own actions, but as far as I’m concerned as a chair, we support the campaign, etc.”, you know, “what happened wasn’t right”, so there was a conflict between us then, so he then started kind of divide and rule a bit, which is getting other committee members to go against me. There were two Afro-Carribean-

[1:05:00.0]

Marvo Rollins, I think was one of them on the committee, and Lou Boyce who was a councillor, there were on the committee, and they were challenging me. I remember doing this article in the Recorder, the Recorder at the time, saying you should look in the mirror and see what side of the story you’re on, or basically something like that, and they didn’t like that either. But basically saying, look you’re black and we’re talking about black issues, and you’re siding with him who’s also siding with the police, so you know that kind of-- but I think it was just the way it was written, and it came out as a story. But there were confrontations between us, and over time it was resolved that he would leave and I would step down as a chair, through the national CRE, that was the compromise in the end.

What was the work that the CRD did, sorry?

REC, racial equality council

REC.

The national organisation was the Commission for Racial Equality, CRE- policies, campaigns on the national level, they were funded by the government obviously but they had funding for local Racial Equality Councils, who were then doing the same sort of thing on a local level, in various local authorities. So they would work with the council, but they weren’t as effective as they should’ve been or could’ve been. But they were the kind of softer approach whereas we were the more hard-line, through organisations like the monitoring groups.

Was their ineffectiveness because they didn’t take such a hard line, do you think, or were there other reasons?

They were more pro establishment people, and their role was probably seen as working with- were fine, to some extent they were fulfilling their role. But it’s all about- you could sort of work with the people, and be challenging if you think something’s not right, but they weren’t doing that, they were conscious of getting funding from the local authority as well. So partly it was also individuals, so Peter Cartwright, he’s a white person, I’m not saying he was racist, as a white person you’re not concerned, but he would’ve been softer. And it was XXXX (1:07:39 –name?) was like that anyway and that’s him in particular but obviously there were other officers as well. Trying to think of another name, but- a Muslim officer who was equally weak but he took the job as being kind of a career, I think he’d been from one-- from Barking he came to Redbridge, Redbridge Council, they were like managers, but they wouldn’t get involved in the actions or challenging in the same way. Maybe I’m being slightly unfair on these people, because I was a community activist, being more flexible in my own approach but then I’ve also done that in my own roles- still been challenging, and paid the price to some extent [laughs].

[Laughter] What form did your activism take within the NMP?

I was on the managing committee, but also even if I wasn’t or when I wasn’t, we were-- had an emergency 24 hour service, so you can phone in if you got a problem-- so I’d be on that list that way, or training people for that service to be provided, the volunteers. But also in terms of plotting and planning, if you like, with the workers, in particular with Unmesh but others too-- that, they are-- ‘80s, yeah mainly ‘80s, not so much the ‘90s, different people got involved, partly because I moved away and my role was more on the outside. But maybe in the same way, I learnt to adapt my way of working, partly senior posts etc. you had to survive to fight another day, so you had to do some compromising. But you had different influences, so

[1:10:00.0]

I might let’s say if it was a recruitment where I would be concerned from the outside, this is my-- this is what should’ve been happening, you’re part of that organisation, you’re employing and sitting on panels, and monitoring panels that kind of thing, so you had a different role to play then. And that’s about employment but in terms of services, you were in a position to do certain things as well, influence the provision by being in the meetings as a senior person- this is social services in particular, youth service maybe not in Newham, but senior in terms of in Derbyshire you know.

How did the way that local government- their relationship with monitoring groups and charitable bodies, how did that change and develop over time in relation to the politics of race?

Yeah, I think whether it was financial constraints or just the thinking- where there were specialist people, let’s say, a race person in the particular department, then you had several people involved with-- if you got one per department or a team even - you might have had race workers - they couldn’t then start addressing other equality needs while employing for people for disability, gender, the same way, so the terminology became in terms of equality officers, rather than specific race or gender. All the while, some of them still existed, but there was a gradual changeover that way. So the reasoning behind that might have been financial but also I suppose it might have been a practical one of saying, you know, we don’t want to have endless workers so let’s put the onus on someone to highlight and monitor these things, but the department has got to take the responsibility not the workers employed especially, but to some extent it was said that way that the senior officers must take responsibility. So we would be advisory support etc. but not responsible for the actual issues. I think again political correctness language changed over time as well. You had to adopt what was politically acceptable, so you couldn’t really talk about communities in the same way, and provision. You had to be conscious of what the funders wanted, expected. But that’s the statutory- on the voluntary side, it was a little bit easier to get funding according to specific needs. But again, from one time to another, it’s about how much money there is and what work you did, so you had to then do more with the same resource. You couldn’t say I need to do this, so go for this resource and that, so that changed. Local authorities were giving grants, their policies changed. So where they might’ve continued providing them, they would’ve had to limit every three years or five year grants, or they would say, right you need to work together now to certain groups, kind of a hub, if you like, way of working. All the funding would go to voluntary agencies, council, and they would be mainly funded and other groups had to work with them, through them also- that kind of change happened. I think people became more professional, experienced, and so forth, so the whole way of working changed over time. XXXX (1:14:19-) that I also moved, and my priorities changed if you like, from job to job or era to era. So as I moved and started taking a backseat, I probably wouldn’t be involved in the same way as my perception of what was happening would be limited in terms of how other people might see it. So those who are working in the system now might have a different view to mine. I think mine would have been predominant, like I said, ‘80s to 2000. After 2000, I think

[1:15:00.0]

some of my roles changed. I mean I’m still involved, either teaching or race and so forth, or even the Punjabi centre and the community, or trying to influence- and even now, the rest of the role I want to play in the next few years if you like, would be trying to influence constitution because some of those groups- including our community in particular- more into power-grabbing and managing, taking control, and some of that is a misuse either resource or their power. So I’m more involved with trying to influence that. An example of that would be the Punjabi centre. When it started, again in the early ‘80s, XXXX (1:15:54) some of the people were there twenty odd years on the managing committee, and weren’t knowing, and obviously their age- I was about 27 when I joined- you could see how things weren’t changing. So you had to work with these people or challenge them etc. and you had to be unpopular, so I was in and out depending on whether I was in favour with them or not. But then I decided to influence the-- working with them, but influencing what I think they could do structurally, so constitutional change. One of the things I did was to- through proposal- that a person has to step down after six years. They do two year elections, every two years, so you had be (1:16:45) for two years before you can come back, rather than be continual- that’s an example of it. There’s a few more things to be done here, but it takes a long time, and it slowly changes unfortunately with the communities. And it’s a generational change as well, they are fulfilling their own needs. And where I was more concerned about younger people, now I tend to be more engaged with the older people’s concern, being older myself as well. Not because of my own need, but in terms of how I relate and I can’t be seen to be a youth worker any longer. So in that respect I’ve moved on as well. So I would-- the change I go through happened through generational change as well. So it’s the next generation, how can they be involved, how can they trade their needs- provision for their needs? So I’m concerned particularly around the Sikh community at the moment, how some of the people are dominant in key organisations. So in Redbridge, the gurdwara- it’s the same sort of people there as with Punjabi centre, same kind of grouping, and they unfortunately got a stronghold on it, so you don’t get the changes unless they want that and it’s what they want, and they want the power and control.

Talking about organisations with not little change in the upper echelons, how are your experiences with working for Newham council under Robin Wales and where do you think the borough’s headed since his losing the election.

This Rokhsana who’s coming now is much younger- obviously part of the Muslim community, who are dominant. I’m not sure they are necessarily the majority, but predominantly there, the community-- would be able to relate and get the support of the community. The question is: who are the councillors? And the councillors, I don’t know exactly, but they’re not necessarily reflective of the community sometimes. So we talk about Muslim, but there are Pakistani and Bangladeshi, and they got that divide as well- bit like the Asian, Afro-Caribbean thing, or Indian and Pakistani- so you got that kind of thing. Then you also got community moving out- I think the Sikh community’s moved out, but the Pakistani, Bangladeshi community is there, so the management or the political management has got to come from those communities, those who are there. There are lots of newer communities that are coming in, so some of those problems and issues are gonna go through another cycle again. And they will have issues with the other people already there- either in the community or in the XXXX (1:19:52). Really, there are going to be new leaders coming out of those communities.

[1:20:00.0]

But Robin was one of the- when I talk about power, control- he was becoming like that- unpopular and a right-winger who dictated, directed- that’s how I hear it ‘cause I’m not there, but that’s how I hear it. And I could see, because he’s been there a long time and these people feel they know best- so I think it’s a good thing he went, and changed. In order to get development, you need change- I’m of that view wherever. So I think XXXX (1:20:39) betterment of the community there. I don’t know Rokhsana too well, but I just hear positive things about her, so we’ll have to see what happens there.

How has the needs of Asian elders, you think, changed since the founding of Subco to the present day?

Well some of those needs are always going to be there, because as you get older you are reliant on various provisions. In terms of Asian elders, where some of the needs were met by extended family, I think the nuclear family - as in the Br- as in the English or European communities - the elders are kind of put to the state and the state provision, rather than the community doing things for themselves, or families doing for themselves. Depending on which way it goes, it could be that the politicians put the resource to the community and say you provide as a community for your community needs, but I doubt it. I think it’s still gonna be institutional provision, so the local authorities will one way or another provide, and maybe get guided or advised or supported by community. Yeah, I do not see authorities giving adequate resource to the community to fulfil their own needs, but in terms of the community and the families, the younger generation are more concerned about their professional career- their own relationship in the family, rather than for the elders. I’m not saying they totally throw them out, but it is changing gradually and XXXX (1:22:42) there’s no difference between these minority communities, how they look after their young pe- oh, the elderly, as opposed to how the host community does.

Yeah

So, I can predict the fact that for the moment, for the next ten, twenty years, I would say the community needs to highlight and provide for their own anyway for the moment, ‘cause some of the communities are not doing what they should be doing for their own either. So whilst Subco were doing advisory support etc. not all communities are doing that. That was in Newham obviously, but you got all the different areas- Redbridge, for example, wasn’t doing enough for the community under Tories, now it’s a Labour control, it’s just come about, so it’ll take time before they provide it in the way that socialist politicians would support. They may not- it might go back to Conservative control but I doubt it. So I think there’s more chance now of communities doing things, but they still haven’t fully recognised how they could. They want grants but they don’t know how to get them, they haven’t got the younger professional people involved enough to be able to do that. The older generation, for whatever reason, one reason not the other rather, they haven’t been able to access the resources that they’re entitled to. Suddenly, support or financial support is also abused, misused- not personal level, but more about providing not necessarily the way it should be used. Or- yeah that’s right, so maybe that the- what’s the word- creative attempting, I think that kind of thing…

Yeah. A while ago, you mentioned schisms and splits

[1:25:00.0]

beginning to develop in Newham Monitoring Project. Would you mind explaining a bit more about that, like what sort of issues created these tensions and how they manifested themselves?

Umm… I think with NMP in particular, it was all about the person who started it, thinks their baby, etc. so Unmesh was the first worker, we were on the committee and involved with employing him and so on. As he became established, you know, he wanted to control and do things his way, but that’s okay- the only thing was he didn’t always carry people with him. So the new people had to be taken (1:25:38) but they then thought-- saw that as a challenge, that he’s doing what he wants to. But they also saw him being pers-- politically motivated to want to become a councillor, and work for the Labour Party and do things that way, and maybe used by the Labour Party. So through that, and especially when he became a councillor - although most of the problems were there before that, I’ll go into particular detail in a second - but through that, I think, he was alienated, various individuals on the committee as well as workers. And Asad was one of those in particular, but maybe you can achieve. That was around late ‘80s, I would say. And also there was a specific occasion where - I know ‘cause I was there, and we discussed - where local authority wanted to stop grant to them, and he told me that he had-- you know, he was aware that they’re gonna cut, and he was going to speak in favour, but had spoken to them, the various key councillors, to cut the money. That’s when I fell out with him, and, or- openly it was declared that he was not working with the interest of the organisation- he either wanted to control it or destroy it, almost.

Is that why he went to remove the funding, do you think?

Err…I would say so. I mean I wouldn’t like to accuse exactly, you know, in and outs of-- but I do remember that particular conversation. And he’s- like I refer to myself, Nasar Patel and him- we used to be for a decade or so together, you know, working. He’s no longer part of that trio, he’s like, you know- and he has, yeah, made a personal agenda about political career. He’s doing cases but I d-- ‘cause he was working with Robin, depending on what happens, he’s no longer with Robin, he’s off the scene from what I understand, he’s in the area, so therefore he may not have the same backing. But ‘cause he’s at GLA level, it’s possible that he will still progress, will wanna become an MP, but we will make sure he’s not challenging around- he’s not around here.

I guess my final question is do you have any particular strong or cherished memories of your work at NMP, on demonstrations, or project work or?

I think the proudest stuff is really the Stardust because I saw the development of that- maybe went full circle in the end and stopped. But NMP-wise, I would say, yes, working with these guys and despite some of what I might say about Unmesh- we worked together and a lot of things. And I think we did tread waves and we did influence change, we did bring about change. But more than that, I would say I took a lot away from it, you know experience, and good memories of even demonstrations, you can’t say it was positive, but through that action, you bring about positive change whilst a march might be seen as negative, or pickets and things like that, by the particular authority, if it’s against education or council or police, they won’t be happy about it, but that’s a means by which you bring about change. And those were the happy times because we did all that very successfully. But that mode of change is coming to an end I think. National level yes, demos, but local, I think, it’s dying out.

Do you think

[1:30:00.0]

there’s a particular reason for that, and a value that’s gonna be lost because of that?

Well, I think, there just-- maybe that was just one way and tactics, or means by which people did things, maybe there are alternative ways of doing things. The social media stuff and other things may be just as productive, but it’s not engaging in the same way, and not involving people in the same way. I think it’s a-- yeah, I think it’s through people like Margaret Thatcher you know stamping down on things, the move to the right of the political parties, including the Labour party under Tony Blair, etc. [phone rings]

[End]

Interview Details

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Anjum Mouj

Project: Growing Old Gracefully - SubCo

Date of interview: 02/08/2018

Language: English

Venue: ECH – Phone interview

Name of interviewer: Francis Ball

Length of interview: 00:50:19

Transcribed by: Francis Ball and James King

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_15

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Interviewer

Interviewee

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[00:00:00]

So I was born in Bradford, erm, and I moved down to London to ocme to study; I went to Middlesex University. And, erm, what I did was the, the, the summer that I left university, I went to, erm, Pakistan, and I spend, er, er, three months with my grandma. And it was really pivotal moment for me, because having, sort of, trained in, er, sort of, er, social policy and social work I had actually no idea what I wanted to do, and, erm, when I went, er, to Pakistan I sort of remember just coming back really aware that I wanted to work with Asian elders. And, actually, you know, I lived in Hackney, erm, and I had absolutely no idea of any projects that existed working with Asian… In fact, actually, more specifically, I wanted to work with Asian women elders, and I was just like, ‘Okay, that’s just what I wanna do.’ So I came back, erm, and I think I shared what I wanted to do with my then-partner who was just like, ‘Wow, well, you know, you might have to set something up!’ You know? And then, actually, about a week later, I saw a job in the paper which was for Eastwoods Trust, a project called XXXX [00:01:19], which is the Sisters House, and it was the setting up of a new project for self-cotnained flats in Manor Park. And I lived in Hackney, and I actually didn’t know the borough of Newham, and I didn’t know Manor Park. But I went for this job, and I, er, cycled up for my interview and I got the job, and I was just like, ‘Brilliant!’ So it was my first ever job, working in Newham working with elders. And that’s what I did, you know? And I did that for a couple of years, and the house got set up… Well, more than a couple of years, and I was the project manager. There was only one person who worked on the project: that was me. Erm, and it was with eleven beds, you know, flats. And it was fantastic. And I was working with women, and it was just like one of those fantastic jobs whereby, actually, you know, you know, you’re an advocate and you support and we’re, we’re… First of all, obviously you’re supporting the development of the project, making sure that the house was coming, you know, before the house was built. Sort of, you know, getting the, the, the, you know, getting it all together, erm, and then sort of finishing it off, and then basically making the assessment of the women who would live in the house. So all of that was going on. It was just like an incredible piece of work. And then of course I met the women, and I was, you know, kinda, er, er, with the women for a couple of years after that, and then I, erm… Basically, the sort of within, within Newham there was so much going on at that time: the Community Care Act, erm, thinking about, you know, you know, community care; there was also other elders’ housing schemes, ASRA housing was there, also Eastwoods Trust had another brother project, which was XXXX [00:02:59] House, which was Asian men elders. So there was just lots and lots of communication in terms of, ‘What next?’ And at that time there was some, you know, er, you know, really good community conversations about how to support elders within the context of the Asian community. And, you know, er, er, really looking at sort of anti-discriminatory practice, looking at oppression, looking at sort of structures also around patriarchy—which is why you had the development of a specific scheme for Asian women—thinking about also the, er, you know, the domestic abuse, thinking, you know, there was also Newham, what was then Newham Asian Women’s Project, Newham Monitoring Project, that operated. So there was a level of activism that was happening in Newham at that time, and it was pretty, you know, pretty stellar. It was pretty incredible to be involved with, straight out of university to be honest. Erm, and this really got me excited about project development. Anyway, some years into that conversation, there was the conversation about, actually, with, you know, ‘Housing elders is one thing, but’, you know, ‘what do we do with elders that are isolated? The assumption has been made that families just look after their own.’ On many, many levels there were levels of unconscious bias that were operating. There was levels of direct discrimination that were operating. And there was just levels of isol-, isolation, that were then contrived because of those things, and also because of this, er, er, sort of, you know, some of the myths that are within the community, and the concept of community care, it’s sort of, you know, central government, er, if you like protocols or their instruction about how to operate. So the development of something like, er, you know, er, er, er, a lunch club or a day-centre that was specifically targeted at Asian elders became something er, er, you know, that we began organising as from those forums, and from those groups, and from me from XXXX [00:05:09]. Erm, and getting involved with the projects, developing, sort of, er, er, you know, a group of people that were prepared to try and lobby, and try and get funding for a project like that. So it became part of something that we did, as part of other organisations that we were working in, because we were recognising that there was some level of support and care that we were providing the people that we were housing, but there was an isolated group of people that had, that we weren’t providing support for, and how do you really develop care in that community in that way. So those conversations took place. I mean, I can’t remember for how long, but for some time before the project got off the ground. And then, er, you know, kind of, I would say that, As a group of people that were operating in the borough at that time, we were also really mindful of the fact that we had a responsibility to work around not just the, er, er, South Asian community, but also the South-East Asian community and other Black communities that we felt were really marginalised. So, SubCo became something that, about, ‘If there’s a possible way of working with Chinese elders, South-East Asian elders, and Asian elders, how do we make that work?’ And, given the fact that, you know, funding was so, er, how can… You know, it wasn’t, you know, there wasn’t ever an enormous pot of funding to be able to develop a number of services. It was like, ‘How do you develop a service and maximise it so it works for everybody?’ Erm, so then we started engaging in terms of the, the management committee if you like, or what would become, you know, the focus group that became the management committee about, ‘How do we develop a project that does that?’ So that’s kind of where we went, and very much in the framework of, like, you know, it’s very easy to be separated and fragmented in terms of BME communities, in terms of Black communities, in terms of Ethnic communities, and ‘How do we’… ‘What’s our responsibility to try and bridge some of those’, er, er, er, ‘barriers’, if you like, ‘amongst community, and what’, you know ‘…? And is it important to do that?’ And that’s really how, er, you know, you could imagine Subcontinent and SubCo became born as an idea. We ran a focus group I think for the name. We worked with elders about trying to get the name. And that’s how it came about. And SubCo, you know, became something. It became a, you know, it became a project. And I, I think I left the borough: I went to work as an assistant director for Age Concern outside of the borough. And I was there. I don’t think I survived more than a year. It was… Yeah, it didn’t, I mean, er, you know, the, if, if, if, if you like, from ,you know, at that point in my life, becoming an assistant director, er, sounded great as a label, but it just really wasn’t for me. And then, erm, er, there was a job that was advertised at SubCo, and I came back to Newham, and I came back to work as a project work for SubCo. And at that time, a bit like XXXX [00:08:21] the project in itself was, was slightly in its infancy. We were just developing it. Erm, and I had a colleague who was an outreach worker called XXXX [00:08:31], erm, who went and did just a lot of that sort of setting up, speaking to elders, getting the community involved, getting the community in and setting up the project, and setting up the, the work. And we set up a lunch club in that, er, you know, with Asian elders, with Chinese elders, separate sort of utensils for the kitchen, separated people coming in to do the cooking, you know, er, er, er, sort of a joining of, you know those groups of people and also some separation so that, you know, so that people had community and identity, and, you know, agency, if you like, and advocacy, you know, within their communities. And, you know, I can’t, you know, it was such a long time ago, but it was really exciting, you know. We’d get, you know, we’d get local GPs in, we’d get opticians in, we’d get, you know, people, sort of you know, having, you know, talks around mental health, talks around depression, talks around domestic abuse, talks around dementia, talks around Parkinson’s. It was, it was a pretty stellar project actually.

Excellent, yeah.

I learned how to play Mah-jong.

Oh wow!

Yeah! I spent my lunchtimes playing Carom board, you know? I learnt how to cook.

Erm…

It was pretty amazing.

What, what were the… What were the sort of different needs like between, erm, sort of Subcontinental Asian, and sort of South-East Asian communities?

Well, I think that you, you have so many similarities in terms of, you know, you know, er, er, economic, er, er, er, er, migration if you like, and people that, sort of, you know, came to the United Kingdom in terms of, you know, as economic migrants. You had some connectedness there, you know, communities that were, you know, always felt not part of the, you know, er, er, er host culture, but felt like they were contributing to host culture, so you had some real similarities. But then you did have some differences of needs: obviously you had different languages, you had, er, you know, you had different faith, different faith systems, you had different approaches in terms of what might, you know, people might record as, sort of, cultural etiquettes. So there were definitely some, some, er, er, er difference. But there were many similarities. And I guess at SubCo we were working very much on ‘What are the similarities, and what’s the connectedness’, erm, you know, ‘and how do we work together?’

Yeah. Erm, how, how did you outreach to, sort of, elders in the community? And I mean what… were there any particular characters you can remember from…?

Oh yeah, I mean, god, er, I remember Mr Macy who was well connected, so just, you know, people who were out in different projects, who would… People that was on-board, there was XXXX [00:11:26] who was, erm, the organiser, er, you know, sort of I think the chair of XXXX [00:11:30] and the vice chair of Newham Asian Women’s Project at that time, and she was an elder in the community, so we used them. We also talked to different Chinese elders groups and to different Chinese elders, and to different people, er, er, er who were working within, you know, the Subcontinent communities in that way. And so we got people to talk to people. We also just did some real grassroots stuff, like, actually, I remember just going to, er, er, West Ham park, and seeing a group of, er, er, er, you know—who knows, you know?—what I thought were Chinese men sat on a bench and just going over and chatting to them. They understand not a word of what I said, but actually what I did the following week was take one of my coll-, you know, somebody who wasn’t even a colleague, actually, somebody who was volunteering for us, erm, er, er, you know, who spoke, erm, Mandarin, and, er, to go over and, and, and chat. And there they were: same time, same, you know… next week same time, same day the following week, sat on the park bench. And we went over and chatted to them and told them, and they got excited about it, you know, and it was kind of, you now, a bit of that, you know? We’d see people, we’d put up stalls in, er, er, you know, Stratford, erm, you know the shopping centre, and we’d just try and talk to people, and we’d go to GP surgeries and put up posters, and have surgeries within the surgeries about what we were trying to do. And that way… And we, you know, we talked, you know, just to a lot of people who would let us into their spaces so that we could talk to people. We put up posters in pharmacies, we… We kinda just, if you like, just laboured the point to get people into the centre. And once we did, then those people began to talk to their people.

So a real, sort of, word of mouth…

Yeah.

… kind of thing?Erm…

Yeah, it was… I mean it was a pretty busy centre, sort of, er, er, er… Yeah, it was pretty busy. We, we really… Our assessments, we basically, you know, there were needs based assessments, we really got to a point where there were many more people that wanted to use the service than we could, you know, that we could cater for. You know, it just wasn’t a big enough space.

So is this… Was this still based in, er, the day centre where SubCo is still?

Yeah, Plashet Grove. I don’t know where it is now.

Yeah.

But it was on Plashet Grove, was it?

Yeah, yeah, that’s…

Eighteen? Yeah, yeah, yeah, Plashet Grove, that yellow building. I think I might’ve had something to do with that yellow!

Oh really? [Laughs]

[Laughs] Yeah! It was a colour as I always said, of the, of the sun, of the tropics.

[Laughs] That’s nice! Very appropriate! Erm, what was it, what was it like, er, sort of, the process of getting the building?

Oh my gosh, you know, I’ve sort of… What I can say? Yeah that… There was a group of trustees, so Ramesh Verma, he, Ramesh Verma, she was working with elders at, erm… Gosh, I forget the name, it might’ve been Age Concern actually, Newham Age Concern… And then there was, er, Ramesh, erm, Dadwal, who was working with, at ASRA housing. He was a project worker there, and they were on the board. And it was, and we had, er, people that we knew in the housing department and the council. Not that we knew, but that we, you know, that they were basically implementing the Community Care strategy. So it was a question of, you know, of really just constantly liaising to try and get a decent building. And when that building came, you know, came into the, you know, came in to the mix, it was then about, actually, getting the, you know, getting the building to, you know, work for us. I think, did the building come from community development.

Yeah.

To be honest.

Yeah. Erm, what’s…?

It’s probably the board members that remember that more, er, er, er, significantly than I do. I sort of just remember getting the building, and the, then organising so that we got funding. And as project worker’s it’s very much about getting the funding to secure the project staff, to getting, you know, er, er, er, sort of, you know, to, to, organising how we did our outreach, to , you know, really setting it up once we had it, and that kind of thing. And my job was really around bringing in the funding to make it work, to actually, to, to, to, you know, er, you know, you know, to put all the, you know, redesign the building so that it works, and the kitchen stuff and that kind of stuff. It wasn’t, yeah… I remember, it was a pretty shabby building when we first saw it.

Erm, how, how did you go about getting, getting in funding to do, to do these things?

Oh, sort of, we went to… I mean, at the time when, you know, SubCo was starting… When was that? The early-‘90s? The early-‘90s?

Yeah, yeah.

Er, it was a pretty radical project, you know? It’s like saying to people, ‘We wanna set up an Asian luncheon club.’ They were like, ‘Oh wow! Yeah, that’s caught me left field. I’d forgot Asian community need a luncheon club as well.’ And they were like, ‘And we want it for Chinese elders as well.’ So funders thought it was quite exciting actually. They never gave us anywhere near as much as we asked for, but they thought it was pretty exciting. The local, you know… Newham itself, the London Borough of Newham, was, at that time, er, you know, it had marginalised, it had isolated, it hadn’t thought about, you know, its minority ethnic elders. It really hadn’t. And, therefore, you know, felt a responsibility and a duty of care. And, as I was saying, they never gave us as much as we asked for, but they certainly were aware of the fact that they’d neglected, negated a community, and that community really needed support, and they were now presenting in the mental health system, they were presenting now about domestic abuse, they were depend-, you know, there were homicides in families, and it, that had been, that had been, ‘Doesn’t this community look after themselves? How is this happening?’ And then when you began, sort of, actually be able to put into the frame that there’d been a level of racism and unconscious bias that’d isolated, you know, a group of, er, er, you know, a group of people, that had actually contributed so much to that community, I think it resonated.

Mmm. Erm, you mentioned…

And it…

Sorry.

… resonated with other funders, you know?

Yeah. Erm, sorry, you mentioned before, er, like this sort of intersection of race and gender. Could you talk maybe a little bit more about how that played out in the Asian community please?

Well, ultimately we began having conversations from having projects that had been quite separated around gender, to actually having, er, er, er, er, lunch clubs that were not separated around gender, but were sometimes separated because to have a women’s group, to have a women’s mental health group, to have a women’s lunch club, actually were also really important because that’s how we got women to use services. Erm, so we were just having that conversation quite a lot, about actually how you had to deal, you know, intersectionality on all kinds of levels where, you know, ultimately we had to start thinking about disability in a way that we could no longer invisible it, that we wanted to talk to talk to our elders, er, we wanted to be in those conversations, and, actually, about, you know, er, er, er, you know, changing attitudes and other things that go on perhaps for a younger generation and some of those differences. And, you know, I would say on a personal level I was, you know, er, you know, I was fairly young, er, you know, at that time. You know, not… I was in my early twenties. And one of the things about that, was that, you know, I was working with people who were saying to me,’ You can call me Auntie’, or ‘You can call me Uncle’, and I was saying, ‘Well, I’m going to call you Mr. or Mrs. or Ms. So-And-So, or by your first name, you know? ‘Cos you’re not my aunt, and also you don’t want me to do that because, you know, I’m you, I’m your advocate. I work for you, you know? I’m working to get you things. So, you know, you don’t want it like that, you know? We wanna keep those boundaries.’ And, actually really got some people thinking about some of the power dynamics as well, where I think that comes in to, in to play where we start thinking about, sort of, the ‘Other’. So, yeah, er, I, you know, some pretty, er, you know, er, er good, you know, good discussions, you know, about sort of not letting those dynamics get in the way of some work, you know? The dynamics of, you know, gender, the dynamics of age, you know, sort of, you know, older people, maybe they are wiser and maybe they’re not, just people need to be respected and valued, and everybody does, young or old. And so we began having actually some of those, er, conversations, which I think, you know, kind of really enable and help a community to go on. I made some great friendships with people that were forty, fifty years older than me.

That’s wonderful. Erm, how, how long were you at SubCo for, and how did your role in the organisation develop in that time?

Well, I was, erm, at SubCo for, I think... It must’ve been two years. Maybe more, actually. To be honest I don’t know. Maybe three years. And the role was about getting people in, about getting the building ready, and, er, you know, and that, that really happened, and I loved the job, and I wanted to stay there, sort of, you know, just while, you know, while that project management of it had gone on, that, you know, so when the project was running I was still there. And then I left SubCo to go to, er, er, become the director of Newham Asian Women’s Project, so, you know, it was kind of like one job that I really, really loved, but there was a job that I just knew that I really, really would love, and, er, and it was down the road. I was still very much in touch with SubCo.

Excellent. Erm, I was, I was hoping we’d sort of get onto to your work with the Newham Asian Women’s Project. We’re interested in the kind of organisational context of other sort of bodies that had, you know, linkages with SubCo in one way or another. So, would you just mind maybe explaining a bit about your, your, er, experiences with and the history of the Newham Asian Women’s Project, please?

Well, in, in, in, in an absolute similar way, er, vein, Newham Asian Women’s Project started because we began discussing, er, you know, and people began discussing in the late-‘80s about the fact that, actually, we were running projects that, in a sense, were, er, you know, projects that were mixed projects, but actually the usage of those projects was actually male dominated. And there were conversations that we weren’t having, which was, you know, predominantly about domestic violence in the context of community,. And that group of women, er, er, er, er, er a group of women, a group of Black women, ELBWP, er, East London Black Women’s Project, and, you know what, you know, and now has become the Newham Asian Women’s Project, and now is London Black Women’s Project, er, developed because of those types of conservations and running advice surgeries at Eastwood’s, er, in the building that Newham monitoring Project was in, and Eastwood’s Trust was in, and, actually, women were talking to us about domestic violence and we had no referral point, erm, and it was like, actually, this is also a conversation that we need to be having with, er, men within our community. And, you know, we were being silenced, you know? That, that group of women that started it off, and I got involved in the project in 1990 I think, when I came into the borough. Erm, er, er, er, you know, we were being really silenced, like, you know, ‘This is not what we talk about. There’s so much racism, we don’t want to be talking about the things which aren’t working in our community.’ And we were like, ‘We do! We definitely do! And we have to!’ Erm, and, and, and, and, and that’s how we came about really. And I guess in a way that sort of community development, that voice of where there is no voice, I feel is, you know, is something that, that group of people at that time in Newham, that’s what we, that’s what we were about, about giving agency, giving voice, recognising some stuff around intersectionality, sort of really trying to work with that, recognising that we’ve invisibilised people within our community. And I think we started, you know, talking much more, you know, talking much more, you know, in terms of an LGBT perspective as well. Erm, and, you know, and certainly recognising that there were, you know, er, er, I would say that as, you know, er, you know, as a lesbian going into that project, you know, there was just that thing about, ‘Okay, we, we, we…’, you know, ‘We are having conversations that perhaps we’ve ignored before.’

Yeah. Were, were those conversations hard to have in, in the Asian community do you think, more so than other…?

No, not necessarily more so than other communities. I think people have, er, invisibilised LGBT people, er, er, er, and communities, for, for, for many, many years. I think that people think that they’re more progressive if they’re a little bit more accepting. But if you talk about the church and LGBT communities, to this day, will struggle with that, you know? It’s like, so, no, anybody thinks those conversations are tricky. And within family and community they might be, and they might not be, you know? It’s just one of those things. What happens is that, er, you know, this is about identity not about identity politics, but about who we are, and therefore those conversations happen in that way, and the friendships that we form actually enable and facilitate them too, or we enable and facilitate those conversations so that they become a political voice. So I don’t necessarily think it’s harder in the Asian community, I think that, you know, I think there are, you know… When you have communities that, I guess, er, that, you know, there is a cultural environment where, er, er, parents or a generational difference between parents and children, and have then not been talking to each other about who they really are, then that’s just tricky. And I guess migration, er, patterns of the Asian community meant that, actually, you know, that sort of, you know, er, development of family life, or if you like of family relations, you know, is just, you know, er, er, you know, a decade or so, erm, you know, in a different—generationally—in a different place. But I don’t think, you know, I don’t think one community or another community it’s harder to have a conversation in. I think conversations about difference are just hard.

Mmm. Mmm. Yeah. Umm, what, what were the sort of services you offered through the Asian women’s project?

Erm, we err, refuge, offered them refuge, refuge erm, and then from that again just those pivotal moments err, I remember being in the project and just absolutely recognising that we ran a refuge with six bedrooms you know, and it was just like you know, what we you know, a drop in the- this is a drop in the ocean, we need to have- we need to start building a community. So we got a, we then had the resource centre people were, we just really got it, that we needed to actually start thinking about building a community about women that were leaving abusive situations because otherwise they were just going to go back because there’s nothing else out there to support them. So then we ran a young women’s group when I was err a member we funding for two hours of youth work and I was just, said take it back, I can’t be bothered, monitoring for two hours of youth work, you’ve got to be kidding me? But you know, I spend longer filling out the monitoring forms than I do running the, you know, getting people to run the session. Erm, and I gave it back and then I started negotiating with them for a full time youth service, essentially. The project then went out into schools, the project looked at self harm, and we got it sort of after about eighteen months of lobbying, we did get that. So I suppose we sort of, thinking at err, you know, about sort of developing err, structurally systems that will help prevent violence and get people to be thinking about their own agency and their independence.

Erm, you previously mentioned that there was a sort of silence err from some community members and they didn’t want these issues being discussed. Err, was it, did you, did you face like other forms of resistance in trying to set up these projects?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. When we went to you know, the London Black Women’s Project, I remember once going to a members meeting whereby the Asian councillors got up and left, they didn’t want to- they certainly didn’t want to fund a refuge. They certainly didn’t want to fund it, you know, and when I first started working in the borough my car was err, err you know, I was visible in terms of Newham Asian Women’s project, and somebody scratched up my car. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Kind of quite a lot of resistance.

Wow. Erm-

Yeah, you know, we called it out, you know. Members got up and left and we said to the people that were sat, is this how you run council meetings? That people are just allowed to leave. You know it’s like, we should just face this hostility ‘cos you can’t challenge it.

So-

You know, articles in the newspaper – yeah we were on it. We were on that thing, I wrote an article in- I was interviewed by the local press for SubCo as well, many years ago when we first set it up.

Wow. So I mean, through, through sort of this publicity, was that an effective way to sort of overcome this opposition?

Yeah, you just had to keep voicing it I think and just keeping really clear about what the point was, you know. And the you know, it did really help to err, get publicity, also what helped was lobbying also, what helped was being an activist and actually remaining in the, you know, remaining in the community, having the conversations, getting involved in the, you know, different aspects of the local, you know, the council structures in the meetings and you know, and can you- actually, you know, pretty, pretty much you know, I would say people in Newham Monitoring Project, Newham Asian Women’s Project, others.. Eastwoods Trust, to establish those projects people worked twenty four seven, you know, people were on it all the time in terms of their- we did err, you know, we like, we did exhibitions that were really, you know, positive images of elders, we did positive images of community, we did positive images around disability, we sort of really, you know, on all levels that we could, that actually just get people to start recognising err, you know, the work we did err, err when I was at Eastwoods Trust we ran a conference erm, that was about housing and Asian elders and we got a, a theatre company to come and do a play here, you know, the person who actually volunteered you know, as our volunteer organiser as that, err, err play was err, gosh I forgotten his name, Singha Verma, who now is the director of the err, I think it’s the Waterside XXX [32:31] rather. So we did some stuff, you know.

Yeah, was it, was it sort of quite innovative to use drama to-?

Yeah, it was music, drama, err yeah we ran, you know, we sort of err, we ran conferences, we you know, poetry read- we had poetry, poetry done by the elders at SubCo. We did music sessions, we did yeah, loads of stuff that was, you know, we went out into the com- you know, we did AGMs that were huge, we’d get hundreds of people coming to and the elders would be doing their stuff. Performances, we still do that at London Black Women’s project, yeah using it all.

Excellent.

You know arts, you’ll see that on Green Street, just by St Stephen’s there’s a mural erm, by St Stephen’s passage by the you know, at the top of Plashet Grove, there’s a mural on the pavement, there’s some mosaics and some benches. Well, that you know, were designed by err, err some of the err, err members, some of the lunch club members of Sub Co elder’s day centre.

Excellent. Would you, would you mind telling me a bit more about that project because that sounds really nice to use public art like that.

That was, that was the Green Street Regeneration Project.

Mhm. What-

Erm, and we met every month, a group of people that were regenerating Green Street. And you know, err, sort of council members. It was actually mostly a very white meeting I think probably except me, and slightly- you know, that for ages, it was like how do we regenerate Green Street, what we gonna do, err that kind of stuff, and you know, how do we use the funds and we were just involved with that you know, part of my role as working at SubCo was to be involved with that project, and I was quite an active memeber of that project. You know, as well the people, you know, that were at SubCo, you know, the people at SubCo and I know Tasmin’s still there, she was one of the founding members of SubCo.

Mm, yeah. So what, was this a sort of mid-nineties I guess?

Yeah.

Yeah. Erm, err sorry err, the, was it the London Black Women’s project, is that the current-

-Name of the Newham Asian Women’s Project? Yeah.

So how did the organisation sort of transition into-

Well it just transitioned about err, I think it had a name change gosh, I’m terrible and I’m the chair of this project, the name changed about err, two- two, well time just goes so quickly you know, two or three years ago. And a lot of that thinking was simply based that services for black women were being really cut, and we always meant to- with err, when erm, so when I was thir- err, err director of Newham Asian Women’s project, we started thinking about a project we were, in fact actually we were err, we were one of those projects that grew and developed, you know the Asian Women’s Refuges used to come to us for advice around funding and support and we thought okay, what we need to do is set up a project that works with black women’s projects. And we set up in that, in partnership with other projects, we set up a project called Imkaan, which has now become an independent project. And Imkaan was our project that we set up for south Asian women for a year and we said after, well, after about two or three years what we want to do, we know that we’ll get the funding for an Asian women’s project, because we ourselves are an Asian women’s project. But what we want this project to do is become a black women’s project, because we know that we’ve been separated and fragmented, we know that funding is set up so we can get funding for Asian women, and we learned that from SubCo really, you know, you can get funding for this, you can get funding for that but goodness me if you want unity, you know, that’s a whole different thing altogether, and we thought actually this is a state thing, this is divide and rule, this is separate and fragment. And ultimately, we do need a project that gets us working and understands our cohesion in, in a stronger way. So we developed In Calm so it was really a matter of time, if you like, that you know, Newham Asian Women’s Project that we would think the same, because we really recognised that services, resources err, err for black, for you know, for black and Asian and minority ethnic women are really scare. And also, there’s a whole agenda around separating these communities, so we wanted to really break that and get us to be thinking and you know, understanding you know, prejudice and discrimination within our own communities, but also externally about the separation and fragmentation that gets exists, and gets us operating in those ways.

Mm. How, how have these sort of cuts to resources and stuff affected the work that you do and also the needs of your service users?

Oh massively, we are massively under resourced to do the work that we do. We err, you know, we try and get external, we try to get a lot of external funding to do with that. A lot of our funding doesn’t come from Newham. Erm, and I would say that the you know, basically, gender has been taken off the agenda, I would say services for women around domestic violence have been deprioritised, erm you know, I would say actually, what’s going on, there’s nothing you know, this is, you know. There’s no hidden agenda here, this what you know, what government call the big society model, which is community looks after itself, but actually it doesn’t really mean that, it just means that we really won’t provide services unless its for the most, most needy. And we’re not even really going to provide services there. Which is why you’ve got people that really should be having support around their mental health that are you know, that aren’t that, you know people should really be supported in going to err, err day centres but are not, but are isolated and at home all the time, you know, people that should be out of violent situations, but actually cannot because they’re locked into this sort of economic dependence and there’s nowhere else for them to go. I would say that this is you know, you know its not just the funding cuts, it’s the, it’s the attitude of the cuts. It’s the block of the mindset, it’s the not supporting people that are most vulnerable, its those cuts that, that are really painful to see in society. It’s you know, we are really deprioritising you know, children services, you’ll have seen the headline, sixty million pounds to cut from social care in Northampton, I mean how? How do you do that? You just stop providing services, that’s how you do it. So of course we’re going to see more child deaths, of course we’re going to see more homicides within the family, of course there’s more, you know, theres much more structural inequality that exists, and when structures err, err make inequality, things get tough, and they get tough for people that are different and by that I just mean black, by that I mean LGBT, by that I mean older, by that I mean younger, by that I mean disabled, by that, you know. By that I mean trans, you know it goes on this in this way, so things get meaner and rougher.

Yeah. I, I hadn’t really considered the erm, what you say are the XXX [40:13] cuts. Erm, is that like a result of the sort of nec-

Yes, structural inequality, when things get, you know, when things get tough, when envi- economic environments get cut when you don’t have social care, when you don’t have society looking after the most vulnerable, when things get tough, when people start saying that group of people are taking my jobs, that group of people are using the NHS, which, there’s absolutely no truth in, which the media propagates, things get tough.

Yeah. Erm-

Yeah, that attitude.

Is it, is it harder to do this sort of community organising where-

It’s a very different, it’s a very different landscape. It’s a very, very different landscape. Erm, you know it’s a very different- its much harder, erm and its you know, it’s really you know, it’s, it’s you know, it, it you know, the it’s really been dissipated towards yeah…

Erm, sorry to be a bit scatterbrain and kind of bring it back to something you said right at the start about this trip you made to Pakistan which gave you kind of the impetus to work with Asian elders, would you mind erm, just going through that story in a bit more depth because that sounds really interesting?

Well, I, I guess it, you know, err it, what can I say? It’s like how you know, that just that, I suppose for me, on a, this is just on a very, very personal level, was something that sort of, your personal sort of facilitates your political and for me on a very personal level I knew that I was going to, you know, i’d left Bradford, I knew I was going to stay away from Bradford, in terms of I studied in London and my family were very happy for me to stay in London. They were kind of really were aware that it was going to be probably a bit tricky for me to stay in Bradford as a muslim lesbian, so you know, err going to Pakistan I just really knew that I was just such a part of that community and I always wanted to be a part, you know, I wanted to remain, you know, in there community. So it was just really about that. That realisation that I could, that must exist somewhere else, and therefore to find a community where that you know, that what I had in terms of support and community and understanding erm, and you know, the loyalty towards, and ability to articulate err, you know for you know, community I just felt I wanted to do that outside of Bradford. So that’s kind of what it resonated in me, you know, just spending that much time with my grandmother who I thought perhaps I might not see again, but I did thankfully, just really made me think about what would be, what you know, what I could do, you know, what- I always knew I wanted to be a community worker but you know, where in the community I wanted to work, and how I did actually have an idea.

Yeah. No it-

It was just very much about that, about realising that you know, there was a, was a conversation that I wanted to have within that community as well, and so I’m as well with a Muslim LGBT group, and I’m sort of, you know, complex because I’m not, you know, don’t identify religiously at all, however I think for a group of people that have very little agency and voice its very important because it’s a community I grew up in and know a lot about.

Yeah, it’s certainly-

And I can also be out, yeah… Sorry?

I was going to say it’s certainly a useful kind of organisational body to bring people together around I guess.

Mm.

Umm, what were- what were your sort of differences in experience between Bradford and London then?

Oh gosh, I think massive. You know, part of it was you know, I you know, I had less autonomy and independence in Bradford, but also, although I grew up there, where I really grew up was London, because this is where I came as, you know, you know technically i’d grown up at eighteen, but of course I did all my own growing up here. But it was quite political in Bradford, I was involved in different things in Bradford that were quite different- organising, like I set up when I was err, I don’t know about twelve, a homework club for young Asian women, just because we you know, after school, going straight home, and it was just like hang on a minute, there were no sort of social activities that were organised for them. So I suppose it was that you know, I felt much more, what I needed to be was err, you know, almost in Bradford I was involved in a community whereby lots of people probably knew my family erm, and in London I didn’t have that. And in London I didn’t have to call every adult I came across aunty or uncle, as I said I just called them by their first name, and it was just that sort of recognising a different- changing community, that responsibility that you have and it was easier to do that in a community where I didn’t grow up that for me.

Yeah, no I can see, I can see why that would be different. Erm, what, I’ve sort of kind of reached the end of the sort of questions I had in the back of my mind to ask you-

-Right.

-But I was just wondering if you have any sort of standout memories, or like, particular moments of your work at SubCo?

Erm, yeah. So many of them, so many of them. I think just sort of err, you know, those elders’ clubs, those- cooking that food, the richness of it, people really you know, the noise, the err I can’t- you know, the- the energy of those lunch clubs, you know. You’d go down, they’re smelling of Chinese cooking, the smell, the scent of Guajarati food, you know, vegetarian cooking, the basically, just the richness of those you know, that chatter. Honestly, was such a lively place SubCo. You know, it was just, you know it was magnificent the sort of you know, I would be, you know, about ten o’clock when we started getting busy, when people started getting dropped off about ten thirty, eleven AM, there to the day centre, it was just lovely, it really stands out to me. It was like if you could, you know, if you could put in colour the sound it would just be, you know, bright, vivid colours err, that just you know, came, you know, came at you, you know what I mean? It was you know, it was just really absolutely lovely, there were some you know, stuff that I learned, you know, we had a person there who had Parkinson’s, and just sort of working with him, and supporting him and he’d had you know, he’d been like a physicist and he just you know, and his mind was just so brilliant, but his body had gone, you know? Erm, and just conversing with him and just sitting there and you know, playing chess with him err, you know in the, in the time you know, kind of those things, just being with people. Amazing stuff, and you know, erm yeah, you know stuff as well that I would say that would be quite emotional like, you know, obviously you know its an elders day centre, so people died, and I’ve you know, that sort of recognising about sort of you know, the importance of that emotion, and the importance of letting that go so that we can have a learning in terms of how we are as community and how respectful we are, and just you know, some incredible things for me that stand out as I say. You know, the spirit of it, the spirit of SubCo is just something else.

No I mean, through my own experiences it seems like a really warm you know, friendly place. So I can imagine how wonderful it must be to have been, sort of working there and making these relationships.

Yeah. It was just a, it’s just a like- I just think brilliant, I just think long may it continue.

Yeah, absolutely. Erm, well yeah like I said err, it sort of, I’ve reached the end of what I had in mind to ask, so all I can say is-

Great.

All I can say is thank you for giving your time, its been really interesting talking to you, and I think there’s lots in there which will be really helpful for, for the project outcomes, so yeah, really thank you so much.

Fabulous, thank you very much. Err, you know thanks for taking the time to call me and cope with my business, and yeah it was actually really lovely to talk about that part in my history and talk, and to remember SubCo, that was really, really lovely for me on this bright summer day, so thank you very much. Yeah, and good luck with the project, and do drop me a line. And yeah.

Yeah, absolutely, I’ll be in touch with this sort of this paperwork and the transcript as well.

Perfect.

I’ll let you know how it’s all coming along.

Yeah, and do give my regards if there’s people there.

Oh, absolutely, yeah.

Yeah, alright, do take care, good luck with it.

Yeah, no thank you. Have a nice afternoon.

Alright, you too. Cheerio, buh-bye.

Bye.

Bye, bye.

The End

Not to be used without copyright.

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Anjum Mouj

Project: Growing Old Gracefully - SubCo

Date of interview: 02/08/2018

Language: English

Venue: ECH – Phone interview

Name of interviewer: Francis Ball

Length of interview: 00:50:19

Transcribed by: Francis Ball and James King

Archive Reference: 2018_esch_GrOG_15

Volunteer interview 2 – Madhu Raichura

Volunteer interview 2 – Madhu Raichura

My name is Madhu Raichura. I joined SubCo as I was feeling myself lonely. I joined for socialising. We go to the seaside, we have programmes, and parties, and things like that… When I joined here there were certain members that comforted me a lot and told me to come to SubCo more often. I have been coming to SubCo since 2000, I think… There was a youth club a while ago, and there were youngsters coming around.

Volunteer interview 3 – Madhu Raichura

I enjoy socialising. I’ve met new friends, many activities, going out, seaside and parties, and all those things. I enjoy music a lot. I went with SubCo to too many places, overseas as well, seaside also… SubCo is important for me because I don’t feel lonely. I socialise with everyone and enjoy myself. I started coming to SubCo because I was feeling lonely and depressed.

My memories are the ones that when I had hard times I had certain friends, whom I have lost them now, they used to comfort me and make me think positively instead of negatively.

My loneliness is not there anymore; I enjoy myself and I am happy when I go home.

We can celebrate SubCo’s 25th anniversary in many ways, like more people knowing, more leaflets around, and more activities.

SubCo can improve after twenty-five years… I think it will improve a lot because it is expanding a lot. There are so many projects going around, so many activities going around. Only thing we are missing is the meals. I t was really good when we used to have hot meals over here. Still we do have but that was a bit different.

The staff at SubCo are very good, very nice, very polite.

• I have been coming to SubCo since 2000, I think… My memories of SubCo are the ones that, when I had hard times, I had certain friends, whom I have lost now, who used to comfort me and make me think positively instead of negatively. My loneliness is not there anymore; I enjoy myself and I am happy when I go home.

• We can celebrate SubCo’s 25th anniversary in many ways, like more people knowing, more leaflets around, and more activities.

Volunteer interview 4 – Hansa bin Patel

My name is Hansa bin Patel. I started coming to SubCo in 2007. I was told about SubCo by my GP and the surgeon who was going to do my operation; they arranged SubCo for me. I started coming to SubCo because I have got some depression and some mental problem. I like here. The people are very nice and they respect us. And it’s very friendly.  My favourite thing about SubCo is playing games and talking with each other. I enjoy Bingo the most. When we have got gathering and some parties I enjoy too much… SubCo has improved a lot, they have new things, they have opened new sessions for the elderly people to enjoy. Young people come in SubCo when we did some planting in some small pots. I liked working with young children.

• I started coming to SubCo in 2007. I was told about SubCo by my GP and the surgeon who was going to do my operation; they arranged SubCo for me… The people are very nice and they respect us. And it’s very friendly! My favourite thing about SubCo is playing games and talking with each other. I enjoy Bingo the most.

• They have opened new sessions for the elderly people to enjoy. Young people sometimes come in SubCo too. We planted flowers in small pots. I liked working with the children.

• SubCo has improved a lot. They have new things, they have opened new sessions for the elderly people to enjoy.

Volunteer interview 8 – Second half English – Kanta Patel (?)

I joined SubCo because I was alone in my house, so I like to socialise with other people. Everybody feels like a family here… SubCo is like my house. My family are also happy with me coming to the centre. My husband used to come here, and we went to the seaside together. It was a good memory… First my husband had a stroke, then he started to come here. When he was alive I used to come to the parties here as well with him, and then when he passed away I started to come regularly here.

• My husband started to come here after he had a stroke. I used to come to the parties here with him, and we went to the seaside together. It was a good memory. When he passed away I started to come regularly myself… I joined SubCo because I was alone in my house. Everybody feels like a family here, and SubCo is like my house. My family are also happy with me coming to the centre.

Volunteer interview 13 – English

I started coming to SubCo about four years back. I knew SubCo for a long, long time, but I decided, through my social worker, because this was about the time where I needed to go somewhere. The people there can care for me because I am not as strong as I used to be… They are always there for me whenever I need any help, or anything. Any little to big thing, they are always there for me. Even if I’m not here, it’s only a phone call away. I like to meet people, because all my life I’ve been volunteering… Being mingled with the public… I talk to staff, I talk to members, or otherwise I’ll be depressed at home… Oh! I have seen so many changes. It’s always changed for the better.

• I started coming to SubCo about four years back. I knew SubCo for a long, long time, but I decided through my social worker that this was about the time where I needed to go somewhere. The staff are always there for me, whenever I need any help or anything. Any little to big thing, they are always there for me. Even if I’m not here, it’s only a phone call away.

Volunteer interview 15 - English

My name is Mrs Hardeep Sanghar. I live in East London. I started coming to SubCo about 4 years back. I knew SubCo from long time; I used to pop in and out. But actually I started because my health was deteriorating and my social worker suggested it, if I go there… so I said, ‘Okay’, that’s it… I like everything. They’re always there. If I have any problem I talk to them. Plus I love to do the entertainment. And the other thing is I come once a week and we do the chair-based exercises with another lady, because I’m trained for chair based exercise for the elderly people. There always there, just phone call away. Even if I’m not there, just call them, that’s it… We get together, we have a good time, we go out… We always enjoy our day! They’re very caring, all the staff… They always improve, day by day.

Volunteer interview 16 - English first half

I am Mrs Sirani Sapad. I have been coming to SubCo since it started, about 22 years I’ve been with them. My aunty bought me here actually because my aunty comes to SubCo, and she said, ‘You come’, because I come from Kenya and had nowhere to go, so she brought me here. So that I can meet people and get used to what the life… SubCo is important to me because I can come to SubCo any time. When I come here I enjoy myself and I don’t feel lonely. I like the staff of SubCo because they are very helpful. When we come here we enjoy it, the company we have, and they help us in any way we want. When we came here we didn’t know where to go. SubCo started to take us out, to movies, they took us to parks, they took us to seasides, and whenever we wanted to go shopping they would help us with shopping as well… When we come to SubCo we do dramas, we have some classes here, we sing, we dance, and we enjoy with all the people who come here. My favourite memory of SubCo is when we have parties here, we get together, we sing songs, we sit down and are talking to each other. SubCo helps with all the information. Whatever information we can’t get outside, we get here in SubCo… SubCo is like a second home to me, because at home, when we are not feeling well, we are lonely, we come to SubCo and we forget all our problems. The staff make us feel better… I think we love when we come here, we have these programmes with young children. We feel young with them. We used to enjoy working with them or playing with them, and do whatever they do. It makes us feel young. SubCo staff is very helpful, and they always help you, and they’re always there whenever we need them… SubCo has improved a lot actually. What they have now they have slowly slowly built up. Before there was nothing, only one little room. Now SubCo has become a big place. There were only a few people. But we can see it growing, and all the changes have made SubCo a good place.

• I have been with SubCo for about twenty-two years. My aunty first bought me here because I come from Kenya. I didn’t know anybody and had nowhere to go. SubCo started to take us out, to movies, they took us to parks, they took us to the seaside, and whenever we wanted to go shopping they would help us with shopping as well. When we come to SubCo we perform drama, we sing, we dance, and we enjoy with all the people who come here.

• SubCo has improved a lot actually. What they have now they have, slowly slowly, built up. Before there was nothing, only one little room. Now SubCo has become a big place. There were only a few people, but we can see it growing, and all the changes have made SubCo a better place.

• We have these programmes with young children. We feel young with them. We used to enjoy working with them or playing with them, and do whatever they do. It makes us feel young.

Volunteer interview 20 – English (fragmented)

Reka Goya (?) – I started coming to SubCo a long time ago, I don’t remember exactly. Maybe 20 years. I came here for a lot of things. Mainly social gathering and meeting people. There were parties and outings, singing and dancing… There used to be talking and food, dancing, singing… These sorts of things… Helping me socialise was the main thing. I didn’t make friends here particularly, I already had friends and they used to come too… It’s a very good thing for disabled and deprived people who can’t go out. At least they can see and talk to each other, meet friends, and go on outings. At the Trinity centre there used to be yoga and exercises. Knitting was my favourite, and embroidery. I liked meeting friends and sharing food… Staff was excellent, very caring, very helpful… I didn’t like the buildings very much, then they moved to some other part…

• SubCo is very good for disabled and deprived people. They can see and talk to each other, meet friends, and go on outings. At the Trinity centre there used to be yoga and exercises. Knitting was my favourite, and embroidery. I liked meeting friends and sharing food. The staff are excellent, very caring and very helpful.

Volunteer interview 25 – English (some not in English)

My name is XXXX… I think July or August, 2009. Council referred me, because my wife passed away on June 25^th 2009. After that I was getting depression, so they told me to go to day centre. It was one of the best at the time, very nice. I liked everything: the service, the staff, management… everything was very good. Staff was always kind and helpful… Even now they are looking after, but they don’t have enough time to spend after everyone, because the staff has been reduced. When I started I think there was…. I don’t remember exactly. I think it was 8 or 10. Now it is 5 or 6. I used to stay in the front part doing exercise and everything, but recently I stopped doing exercise. I’m now playing cards. I prefer exercise but I had to stop because of my health. It was chair based exercise and yoga. I have been to parties but I haven’t been to trips. Because of my health I didn’t go to trips. SubCo parties are very nice when I started coming here, but, slowly slowly, the situation got lower. After the government stopped the subsidy. Until then it was very nice…. I was singing songs once or twice at the parties, but I won’t give you a demonstration now!... I would recommend SubCo. In my opinion it is the best place and has the best services. Comparing that time and now, it’s a little bit low, but it’s still better. They cannot manage because of shortage of staff. They reduced the staff to cut expenses, so they cannot look after all at the same time… So many people, meeting with them, helps loneliness… I think there needs to be more staff, this is a flaw. The one thing I don’t like, when I started there were two minibuses. On one round they took all the people at half 9, and leave by half 3. Now they are small cars. They take people at 9 oclock. Sometimes they come at half 10, quarter to 11, and they start sending home at 1 o clock. The day is too short. If you come at half ten and go at one o clock, two o clock, that is too short. It says that the time is 9:30 – 3:30. I did ask one of your staff, once I asked her, ‘What’s your rule of the SubCo day centre? What time you start and what time you finish?’ 9:30-3:30. I said, ‘Can you give me in writing?’ She said, ‘Yes we can give you in writing’. I had an argument with her that this is not good because you cut the time of services. 10:30, quarter to 11, you start sending home at one o clock, so you cut the hours of your services… It is a good idea to record SubCo’s history. From these ideas you can try to improve… The building has improved. It has extended and become better. The room next to the dining room, the TV area, has been extended. After playing cards I watch telly.

• It is a good idea to record SubCo’s history. From these ideas you can try to improve. The building has improved. It has extended and become better. The room next to the dining room, the TV area, has been extended. After playing cards I watch telly.

Volunteer interview 26 - English second half

DONE AT HOME – SEND IN

2011_esch_Luo_01

2011_esch_Luo_01

Recording now I'm going to start by asking you your name and Date of Birth?

Richard A-l- a-n-g-o last Name O-N-Y-I-N-O

I was born on the 4^th June 1943 in a place in Western Kenya called Kisomo – Kisomo is now elevated to a City it is our major town within the Luoland yes

Do you have any brothers and sisters?

Yes, at the moment I have only one brother two died. One died in 1982 and the elder one died in 2002 and the other sister died in 2004, so we remain two brothers and two sisters. They are all in Kenya. Only me who is in England at the moment

And when did you come to England?

England, I first came in 1971

So you were now old?

On a training programme, I think I was less than 30 years I could be around 28. Yeah on a training programme which was offered to me by British council. And later extended by World Metrological organisation United Nations. So after completing my training here I went back

What was the training in?

I trained on various telecommunications equipment majoring on Insulation and commissioning of the Radar. Like the one that Heathrow terminal three. Yes that one we took part in the installation and commissioning in 1972 yes so I should say that I am diversified in some many areas. But my major training was electronics and telecommunication

Amazing, so can you tell me a little about your school days in Luoland?

School days was very, very competitive because in our land, I don’t know the number of the population at that time, what the figure we were at that time but I think the Kenyan population at independence was 6 million so Luos was the second largest tribe in Kenya could have around 1.5 or 2 million at that time, and there was only one missionary school for 2 million people, one missionary school so if you did not get into that school, that was the end of your career, finished, but the programme was we go through primary education after intermediate level standard 8 then you go to form one so if you got to that school , then you are assured of your future, even if you failed Cambridge school certificate exam, the exam use to be set by Cambridge, at the University here all for the commonwealth so if you sat it and passed it, then straight away after form 4 you just go to university, there was no A level at that time. So I was lucky, I was one of the people who had been admitted to Myseno secondary school and we excelled so well that was why we were properly trained after finishing our Cambridge school certificate.

Right so how long were you in school for, what age did you finish?

Oh, primary was standard 1 -4 you sit for an exam which qualifies you to go to standard 5 if you pass standard 5 then start 5 to standard 8 if you pass that exam then you go to form 1, for another four years all these were just for 4 years, for standard 1 – standard 4 – 4 years from standard 5 –to standard 8, 4 years from 1 to form 4 – 4 years after which you can look for a job or you can extend your education worldwide some people used to work I America but Britain didn’t allow anybody to come here unless you had a degree, to come and get your post graduate otherwise they did not allow us so most people went to America, yes.

So what was it like growing up in your village can you describes it for me a bit?

In the Village it was very interesting because we were under care of old people and they used to take care of us, very well. So boys used to herd cattle and sheep, goats. And er, girls used to help their mothers in getting firewood, fetching water from the rivers. So it was er, nice, because the life was generally it was just a free life. There was nothing like clothing you just walk naked, you had no blankets, if you had anything you put on the floor and you sleep that’s all, so our old grandmothers we used to sleep in our grandmothers houses so they put a fireplace there and that fireplace was your blanket as long as your feet were kept warm you just feel comfortable sleep the whole night, mosquitoes were biting us but we could not feel it

Could not feel the mosquitoes?

No we could not feel it we were used, we were used to and you know cow dung, cow dung they dry it and at night they put it on the fireplace and it gives a pungent smell I mean smoke which was hostile to the mosquitoes so they run out although you get a chocked you breath the smoke you continue sleeping until morning, so in the morning you go to school and if let’s say you got cloths out of the ashes of the dung you were feet would be very dirty so if you don’t wash your feet when going to school you would be caned through ally (laughs) by teachers

Was school very strict?

very very strict and the teachers were very very brutal they were very very brutal they Cain you probably it was not caning it was beating you don’t understand his subject you were in for it, you just the fault one way or another the school rules which were set for us to obey, like standing instructions in companies, t you don’t obey them properly you would be through ally beaten and a lot of people ran away from school, they never even finished two years in school cause it was an hostile environment

Was it all run by missionaries the school?

No, No, No, the primary schools was just local they were run by the government, yeah were had a district education board where the district education officer would come round and he would supervise teachers and see how they teach and the headmaster was given authority to instil discipline on his teachers and pupils so everything was just under the authority of the headmaster he could decide on what to do and what not to do, but then they education officers, who were whites who would go round in their vehicle supervising and seeing how they teach and run the schools, and they set time tables for closing and opening fro the whole year, first term was just like one year because it was long – yes.

So what was it like growing up, you must have learnt lots of things from your grandfather and father can you describe what it was like in the village?

The village was er, I mean it comprised of old people who could, take for example a village elder was given a lot of respect you could not, if it was the season for digging ploughing to plant you could not do it until he gives authority you could not plant seeds until he gives authority, when the crops were ready for eating he and his family were the first to eat than you could go to your garden and take a cob of maze or millet, if he refused you just leave your crop there even if they dry up and get wasted in the field, you can not take any home without his authority, there was a lot of discipline, so after harvest he could call upon the people around the village to contribute mainly millet African millet so there they prepared it, fermented it and made African brew and called the neighbours to come and enjoy they would slaughter one of the best bulls people eat they beat drums they dance the whole night to celebrate a good harvest if there was a problem in the village like some bodies son is misbehaving he would call the elders and the other grown up boys to discipline that boy who is misbehaving in the home he could be caned anything could happen to him. So there was a lot of disciplined during our days so anytime(phone goes off) paused anytime the people who had married young son with their wives they were briefed on how to run their families so if you did not run your family probably you would be called upon to explain why the wife was given freedom to complain to the grandmother and the grandmother who could take that complaint to the old men because as a woman married in that home there was no communication between her and the old men everything must pass through grandmothers. So if there is a problem they called upon you, you go and explain your problem why you could not stay peacefully with this woman and yet they had paid a lot of cows in the form of dowry, so there was disciplined. A boy who was in the field looking after cattle if he let some go astray into somebody’s field and they destroy the crops in the evening they could call other boys to disciplined him by caining him thoroughly. So there was lot of disciplined during those days.

So did you marry in Kenya?

I married in Kenya

And how did you find your wife?

Err we were staying in a certain estate caller Kibera in Nairobi err I was still young 24 and she was my neighbour a few houses from mine and I studied her very carefully and found that she was well disciplined and people it was a big struggle, people also wanted her very much. So I didn’t even let her complete school because I knew if she would have completed school I would not get her (laughs) so I just approached her one day and told her that I intended to ,marry her, and she refused so gave me 6 months to make up her mind that was in November 1967 so April 68 I went to her and said it is now 6 months have you made up your mind, she was a bit reluctant so her cousin she was living with her cousin I approached her cousin which was my best friend and give me the Green light. So one day I just went to her house I was doing my City and guilds exam I finished the exam very -very quickly I hired a taxi and went to her house found her there alone and I told her okay so today you are a wife you are no longer a girl in this house you are going with me whether you like it or not, so the taxi driver also helped me to enforce(laughs) the law on her we told her to gather anything she wanted before her cousin came back for lunch so that was how we went and we went for good. And in our culture if you tell a girl that she is married and that she is now married she cant go back home by our culture, so I married her and then I told her okay now I will sponsor you for further studies you will now be studying in my house while as my wife because I knew if she had continued with school those people would grab you before I take you so that is now we got married and I gave her the best training until she climbed up to the top most secretarial post in Kenya so I gave her a lot of freedom she became one of the top secretaries for Kenya airways yes

So do don’t most when you ask to marry someone in Kenya don’t you have to provide a dowry?

Yes

Did you provide a dowry?

Yes

Now much?

After I stayed with her but because another culture in Luoland you can not pay a dowry when a woman is pregnant so I made sure she got pregnant immediately so that I had tine to collect (laughing) money for two years (Laughs)

You cheeky Devil so what was the dowry?

Er The dowry in luoland dowry does not end I remember my mother in 1979 that is when my father paid the last dowry and she was a married in 1936

My goodness

Yes so you can pay dowry as and when they want it but initially, they will tell you ok, give us so much, me I paid money, so money at that time err I paid two thousand Kenya shillings, which was alot of money in 1969, it could would have been well over three thousand pound now, yes so I stayed for a while, then now it was the turn of my Father, as a Son to also help me paid dowry, so he took some cows from his home state and they took them to my Father in law, and that one completed dowry

How many cows

Seven

So that is a good dowry isn’t seven cows

Yeah it is good

What is the averaged?

The average was around err, when I was paying two thousand, at that time a hundred shillings because err, a hundred shilling, how many hundred of shilling in a thousand? Ten

Yeah

So by that time you could get a bull, at less than hundred shillings, so two thousand was alot of cows, maybe over twenty at that time, that is why they gave me a breathing space for many years because I had paid a lot [laughing]

That wonderful, so growing up there you learnt things like, what did you learn as far as in the home state

In the form off

Well fishing, well fishing and hunting

No we were not near the lake

You were not

No we were fourteen miles from the lake, but err we used to mostly look after cattle’s, and during that period, you play a games, I mean you exchanged ideas, and err when the crops are ready around August or July, in fact maize, mostly people like millet more than maize, that is why they didn’t contact disease like diabetes, because err millet is not very rich in starch,

Right

Yeah maize is very rich in starch, it bad so maize was some how not liked very much, so you could just go to somebody’s err um field and take any amount of maize you want, and roast them and eat, they couldn't make noise, it was the order of the day for young boys, who are looking after cattle yeah, and err during that time, the err what I should say, ooh the bushes were very -very dens ,very -very dens, because people were few, and so if we went to look after cow, or you had some goats and some sheep, and you are alone Leopards could just come from nowhere and pick, any from the herd, so we were all the time we were under supervision of old people, you are there looking after the cow or goats or sheep, but they seating some where watching if there is anything bad which can happen, until late in the evening when you take them home, for milking, and for up keep until the following day morning, but other wise life for young people was god, we sometimes err if it was during the raining season, we don’t need to go to the river to wash, we just get out in the rain as it rain you just clean your self and go and sleep, that is all because we didn’t valued clothing very much, it was very difficult for people to afford a pair of shorts was like err fifty cents, Kenya shillings but very few people could afford that, so we were used to walking naked, you see until when we went to upper classes, and then we had to cover our selves

Yeah, how old was your grandfather when he died

I don’t know, my grandfather, for my father died in 1952, I don’t know how old he was, because my father was born in 1915, and he was the last born

Right

So I know my grandmother died at the age of between hundred and ten and hundred and twenty

How did you know that?

They used to calculate my uncle, I had one of my uncle who was highly educated, err he went to secondary school in thirties

Wow

So history could tell him that err at the time my grandmother was growing, he could calculate that time base on the history, that was taught at school, and the calculate and come to the average age of my grandmother, so that is how we could tell, yes

My goodness do you remember any stories from her

Yeah they used to tell us a lot of stories, especially when we go, before we retired to bed, they had to tell us stories and we also tell them stories we learned in school, because in school story telling was a must, it was one of the err, it was in the syllabus, so any time after teacher has taught arithmetic, and some other subject, and then he leaves you time to tell stories, but my grandmother used to tell us a lot of stories, like one of them was, they believed that the sun had a good omen or bad omen, so we were not allowed to go out at night, because they believed that, when the sun set, it will moved at night when people are sleeping to go to the East, to rise again, so if you woke up even to go and pass urine at night and by bad luck you see the sun, and err the sun throws anything to you like a rope or a hoe, you know a hoe? Yeah for digging, if you get a hoe, it means that you are cause through out you life time, you will be, every time you have a child they will die and you dig the grave to burry them, but if you get a rope it means that you are blessed, you will have a lot of cattle to tie them with the rope err where they are suppose to stay at night, so we faired, no matter how much you wanted to urinate you just hold your self till morning [laughing]

[Laughing] your grandmother must have been an amazing teacher

Ooh yes she was, we had a, my grandfather had two wives, my real grand Mother was a conservative, she didn’t like talking too much, so we could go to the, my younger grandmother and we stayed there the, we could stayed there must of the time sleep there, because she was flexible and could tell us a lot of stories, even teachers, even teach the girls, how to stay um how to stay with the, how to lead there family when they are married, yes because they didn’t like girls misbehaving, because cows where just like a blessing to them, the more you had the more you are respected in the village, so if you had a girl who is attractive and who are well behaved, and could make you get cows from err, from there good married, they really look after them properly ,and gave them the good teaching about life, in the villages and how to lived life with the in-laws, and other such like things

Yeah, there were strike rules with like how they should trait the in- laws and things like that

Yes yeah there was strike law, strike laws

Right

Yes strike laws

Right, so you had in a sense then you had your grandfather had two wives

Yes

You had two grandmothers

Yes

How many wives did your father had

Two

Two, so was that the standard, or did people had more than one

Not the standard you could have three, four, five, six, seven, depending on how wealth you are

Yeah

Because you could not get them free, you had to pay dowry

Yeah

And some you could send even twenty cows, ten, and fifteen, so if you don’t have them, you could not afford to married more than one wives, yeah so polygamy was left to people who were rich yes

Did you father had all his teeth

Yes

So he didn’t have any removed

No six

He had six removed

Six this lower one

Right

Were removed

Right

Yes

How old was he when he had them removed

No I don’t know, because I was born and found them with out this

Right

Yes, but I think they were removed when they were about err after the milk teeth are gone

Right

So the moment you had permanent teeth, they removed them, because if the removed them, when you still had milk teeth, they will grow again

Yeah, yeah of course

Yes

And that was because of lock jaw was it

It was a err costume, costume and err lock jaw as well, but mostly if somebody was sick, was sick he can not eat, he can not talk, and they want to put even porridge in to his mouth if he, if his teeth are tight there was no way of opening them, but if you had a gap down here, you could used that gap to open the lower, the upper teeth and put something in the mouth, it was advantageous as well,

Yes

Yes

So that was the main thing about the laws that you had your teeth removed was there any other thing, that how you could recognise a member of the Lou community

That was only the teeth at that time, but old people had beads, put on their ears, this ear loops

Right

They had err special beads, not just ordinary, special, I don’t know where they got them from, but they were very expensive, because each you had to pay a cow, so if you are very rich, you could put ten here and ten this side, or five and five yes

You will knew how rich some one was

Um

You knew how rich someone was

Yes

By how many

Yes

Ooh how lovely

Yes, yes

Yeah that is really nice

And again, my you know we stayed in err there are some Lou in Uganda, all thou xxx[Acholi] we called them xxx[Acholi ] in Sudan they are called Dinka, this are our people who remain behind on the river Nile, but they told us a story, there was a conflict, between two brothers, in Uganda, when one of the brothers was very rich, so he called a specialist to come and put the beads, on his ears, so his brother had a small child, so the small child went to, went to study how this, just sat near this old people who are doing this things, and he just look at them what it was, how it was been done, unfortunately he took one of the beads, and xxx[swallow], so the brother said no, I brought this man, I have paid him, so many cows, to do the beads on my ears, and I can not afford having one less, on one of my ears, told his brother you most give me, my bead now, whether you like or not, and a fight and sued, so the brother got annoyed, and said ok I can not afford to get you beads and it is too late, this man has come and you had paid him, and he most finish the job he was paid for, I will get you your bead, so he took the child, cut open the stomach, and found the bead and give him

Ooh my god

But he did not give him face to face, he gave him back, I mean with hands at the back, he didn’t want to see his brothers face, because what he did to him, was very- very, I mean err unbearable

Um

So he told him ok, my brother, you made me killed my child because of the bead, we shall never see eye to eye again, so we were told we are the descendent, of this man who left Uganda and came and settled around lake Victoria, where the Lou are now, and those people the other s remain back in Uganda, and that is why they said historically brother Lou’s they don’t see eye to eye, they hate each other, in fact if it is something which was inherited, from that incident, it is very sad, because I may, I have a brother but, we don’t love each other

That is very sad

It is a very sad thing

Um

Um, he would be happy to see my down fall, than my success, I he would even fight, for my down fall, that is typical Lou’s up to today, we were told historically, or through stories that, that is we are now reaping what happened in Uganda, that was one of the stories

Um

There was also a man, who played I don’t know whether he played magic, but he is still a legend, in the Lou land up to today, he could turn into anything, he really miss treated the err the first settlers, from Briton or from Europe who settled in Kenya, he could turn in to anything even a snake, a goat, a dog, so when they were chasseing him, he could disappeared and then come and meet them again in the form of a goat, or in the from of a dog, or in the form of a woman, so they asked have you seen that man who was running, or yes he has past he has just gone that way , yet is the same man now in the form of a woman, so whether it was true or not, we don’t know but that legend is still there up to today

Um

There is even a football club named after him, and they believed that, this football club can turn miracles, they can even score goal where and you don’t know the goal was scored, that store is still there

Yeah amazing

There was one, who xxx there was a tribal conflict, conflict in that tribe, that clan fighting this clan, and such like things, there is one who was err name, who was said to be so strong that the xxx [Kalenjin] who are our neighbours, they were very good in staling cows at night, but he was so strong that he fought them single handed, and push them from the err plans around lake Victoria, where we lived, up to the hills which are very cold, so his body was just like a stone even if you spear it, the spear just brake in to pieces, so this people did not know, why he had such a strength, so one day, they gave him a girl form their home to go and study, why this man, I mean why this man behave this way, where is the secret of his strength, so one day, he fell sick, so he told the err the [Kalenjin]xxx wife, who was not a Lou, to cut his skin, and rape there some medicine, but this woman err, I am just cutting a stone, this is a stone, your body is hammered, it is like a stone, he said don’t tell anybody, just cut my shadow, so when that woman cut the shadow, blood came out, and put rub the shadow with medicine and the man got cured, after a while the lady disappeared, went and told her people that, this man powers is on his shadow, so next time you go and fight, just pear the shadow, so when the fight broke out again, they really fought very had to get to the shadow, and when they spared the shadow, the man died, up to today, and when he died he turned in to a stone

Right

Up to today that stone is there, and it is a monument, which even tourist go to watch, when they visit that area

What the stone called

Err xxxx xxxx xxxx means a stone xxx was his name, so the Lou still believed that, if you are going hunt animals, and you sharpen your spare or what every you sharpen on this stone, and you see an animal running and you throw it the animal will not escape, you will get your catch that day

So Lou, are good hunters

Yeah they are good hunters, good hunters and good fishermen

Right I suppose that is why, is that how you kept health

Yeah, because of fish, um because of fish, and err we were told that err, there is a certain typer of oil, the head of the err tilapia, which is very good and it boost intelligent, because err when err the missionary came and they started this schools like where I I mean I learn, they found that Lou were very -very intelligent, give them any subject , they were just number one, and they try to find out why, they found that it was associated with err oil from the fish, and it is just in the head not this err fillet which people like , just the head, yes, so that is how it is,

Why do you think people lived so long?

People lived so long, because they had no stress, they were happy with the environment the only thing which gave them a lot of problem, where the sickness, but they knew how to go about it, they had very special herbs for any types of treatment, which they used even in my father was a good heeler of snake bits

Really

Yes, one day he saw some snakes fighting, and he kept watch, then one killed the other, and then went an pick a certain leaf, and came and put in the mouth of this one which was dead, and it just woke up and went it own way, so he went and pick that leaf, and he ran away, because I am told that, if the snake would, the one which heel the other would be very -very vigilant, and look for any body who is going to pick this leaf, and will chase you even mile and miles, and he run away fro some month, then came back, so it is this herb, which if you are beating by snake, they just pound it, pound it and squeezed it on the wound, and some you were given with water to drink, and that is the end of it

My goodness

And he heel a lot of people, of snake bites, and there are lot of some other err herbs for different disease like malaria and such like things, so they lived longed, because people had no worry, there worry was only food and food was plenty fruits was were plenty, fruit were growing in the wild very many, and you know fruit will provide vitamin C to heel the wound, if you had a wound, or such like things, so they didn’t worry any thing , and they knew that err mortality rate was very high, because they way thy look after their children was not good enough, children were just walking necked, not given proper food, they could die from in hygienic h condition, so that is why they had many wives and many children that some will die, some will remain, because I know my grandmother had fourteen children, twelve died and only two remained my father and his sister, twelve died

My goodness, what did they all die before certain age

Ooh yeah, before ten

Ok

Before ten, mortality rate was very high before ten, after ten survival was err good

Um

Um survival was good

So when you first came to the UK, in 72 was it? 72

Yes

What was your first reaction? When you arrived here

Ooh it was good, it was good, and we were thoroughly brief by British council in Nairobi, what we expected the good and the bad, and we knew how to go about it, so err we were met, that time underground was only up to Victoria station, so we were told to take a coach from Heathrow to Victoria, and there we were met by some official from British high commission, British council I mean, and then they brief us, give us pocket money and then they gave us tickets to go to where we were going to take our courses, we liked it um at you know during that time, not few Africans had a chance to come to Briton, and there you could find some places like where we went Isles of white, that is isolated island, not much very much exposed to tourism and err from African and the rest, so seeing blacks was something strange to them, but we coup up with the xxxx situation

It there a lot of racism

I don’t know whether it was racism, but err I remember one day, we went to a pub, and when we enter the pub everybody went out in the protest, why we were allowed in we were five from Africa, so we were amazed we just look at the bar man and he looked at us, without talking so one of us ask him, do you have any the strongest beer, because in Kenya we are used to very strong beer, so he gave us one which was called best biter, and we drank everything in the bar, any strong beer we swept clean , so the man got happy, because we had made his day, he made more money then he could get from this soft drinks, somebody drinking a glass for two hours, so he was happy he told us gentlemen, come tomorrow leave those people alone, so the following day when we went, we found this people, he had brief them, that you know this people made me, I mean made me more money than you people, so when we went they didn’t go out, they just watch us how we were drinking some started playing snooker with us, and little bit we become very good friend, very -very good friend, we where invited by Lion clubs, we went for a party, the party which turned nasty [laughing] because one of us was a very good dancer, so when was there music, this man asked err somebody if he could dance with his wife, so xx sure- sure just go ahead we are in a party don’t worry, so the man started dancing rumba , you know rumba? Um you know rumba

Rumba yeah

Yeah so he turned round, turn round, turn round, the husband was watching and he was not happy, the way they were dancing , so he just came and slap this man very hard and he fall down unconscious , that was the end of that party, we wondered so what is, this was sort of entertainment , why did he why should the our friend be beating so much, in fact it, I don’t know whether he broke his jaw he had to be taken to hospital, that was the only incident , which was not good, but otherwise, we liked it, we stayed there and then went to xxx[macony] college in Chelmsford, and so many other places, but where we are some how we can meet hostile reception, sometimes it could be ok, and we were, we just lived with it, we didn’t care very much

What was the big different between coming here and been in Nairobi or you village, was there a huge difference

There is a huge difference, because is a civilized err country with it so many opens, there things which we just read in books, like snowing, the seasonal weather here four season, there we had only one season, and of course we had sun light, from morning to evening 24 hours a day through out the year, the only thing we called a season is during raining season, when there is long rain, long raining season from March to June, and short raining season from October to December, that all, so when we came here we learn a lot, and err things which we could not see back at home , we saw it again

Like what

Like err hovercraft that was our time to travel by hovercraft, across the channel between Southampton and err isles or white, we couldn't image something err floating on water and going almost seventy MPH, that was amazing to us , and it was also our first time, we were the first lot to travel by jumbo jet 747, yeah bowing 747 from Nairobi, that was it first flight to Africa

Right

Yeah so, we were very happy about it, clothing and the rest, we found that we could buy very good things, and we could also learn a lot on the form of TV programs, and the engineering was very good, something which we could not be taught at home, so we had the best training of our time, we had the best

Was the idea to trained you here and then for you to go back to

Yes

That was the whole xxx right

Yeah because err our government bought a lot of equipment from err, from British government

Right

So the condition of the purchased was that they had to give after sales service, in the form of training, so that when we go back, we look after this equipment, yes as maintenance engineers

Did you pay, were you paid to do the training?

No that one was paid by the was in the err packed yeah so, I think when our government was buying equipment the training was one of the conditions in the purchased yeah, so what we were given was , we were given free ticket free accommodation and free pocket money

How much was the pocket money

Ooh [laughing] it was seventeen pee per day,

God, but I suppose that was alot then

It is a lot of money

Yeah

It was a lot of money, because I understand during that time minimum wage, was fifty five pee per hour, yeah but it was a lot of money, life was good, and our money was stronger than the British money at that time yes

So you did your training and then you where here for how many years training

Ooh radar training took us six months, because radar was more complex, and transmitter training took us another six month at xxx college, then other small equipment here and there, xxx and company I don’t know where it now, and recall company, communication equipment also took us, in total it took us one year two month, yes but err the other potion of it was founded by United Nations, which gave us a lot of money, one thousand pound per month

Each right, so you must have gone home with lot of money

Err lot of money, when we went back home, we were kings

Really

Yes we liked it [laughing] and even that time, we were been told that err, it would be better if we were employed here, because we got the training, which could not be offered to locals, so I know I was err offered a job to go in Porto-Rico to do the installation of radar there, but I didn’t want because I had a, I had my young family back at home, and life there was also very good, and we were also told that ok, if you stayed in Briton for two years with out going out, if we are not arrested then automatically you become a British , but then we decided to go home, non of us stayed back, yes so later we were brought again for further training

So when you went back, what was like going back?

Ooh we were heroes, it was err we appeared on TV, radio and everything, during all our training here was filmed, and taken back home, to show the people how this people where training , and how good it is to joined that the organisation, they will offer you better training and future, and we were given very senior post, because we were taken over expatriate, expatriate had been there from time in memorial , so we were the first African to take over from them, so we were taken, we were really looked after properly yes

That most had been really good for taken over from expats

Ooh yes it was good

Pride and country

Yeah pride, yes

So what job did you do when you went back?

Me when I went back in particular, I was in charged of airports, installations all over East Africa Uganda, Tanzania and Kenya, so anytime there was a problem in Uganda ooh where is Richard ticket straight away to Uganda, straight away to Tanzania and Kenya all round, and I enjoyed life, it was as if I was a pilot, because all the time I was flying, going to help those people put, I mean repaired the equipment, yes

So how long did you do that for?

Ooh many years until community broke up, community broke up East African community, comprising Uganda and Tanzania and Kenya; it was just like one region, but when something happened to the country that the politicians, became hostile to each other then each one, each country decided to go it own way, in 1977, then that was the end of it, and I also didn’t want to carry my services on to Kenya government, so I left an rejoined private sector,

Right

Yes

So when you came back to the Uk again, when was that

That was 1979,

And that because, why did you come back in 79

I was err I was working for a xxx East Africa, you know err did you hear about xxx, yeah I work for him, he had forty seven companies in Kenya, so I was a manager in one of his companies, so I did so well, err my department did so well, the turnover was twice the figure which was given to me, and so I was offered a free holiday, one month stay with my family, in London, that is when I came back, and from then my wife was also, had also joined the Kenya air ways, and we were entitled to free ticket all over the world, so I started just venturing in to travelling, in fact Briton just became like home. I could come any time I felt like, there was no visa, you only had a passport and a ticket and you go, yeah visa restriction just came in 1996, yes, yeah

So you kind of moved around from seventy seven

Yeah

Yeah so when did London really become your home then

Ooh, things, when things became very bad, back at home, I sent my children here in 1995, yes to come and stay

When you say went bad, what you mean by went bad

Politics, yeah politics was very bad, very- very bad, so I had for seen, that the future was going to be dark, it was not going to be bright for any body at all, so I moved my children here, and it so happed that err you this err problem like you have seen in Libya, tribal conflict like Kenya you know err when there is a err incumbent, or in power he just looks after his own tribe, he doesn’t care about other people, and if you complain you suffer for it, if you complain you suffer for it, not jobs no anything no future, even say you find that no matter how intelligent, or clever you child is, he will not make it, when it comes to exams, he is given a grad lower than the average pass fro university, so that they don’t go to university such like things, so I had seen that this things were not going to work well, and they proved me right, when i brought my children here, every body follow suit, people came here in large numbers

Right

Yes

So what did you do when you first came, when you came back here, did you work or

No, I was a business man, yes because err during my time, when I was working for the three government of Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania East African Community, I was in charged of procurement

Right

So I knew so many companies in Briton, supplying what and what, and I knew who the uses back home, so I could just go err ok we want this, do you know where to get it? yes I know here is an order , sometimes they give me an order of twenty thousand pound, I come here get the items I supplied and I lived very comfortably

Um

Yes that is how I lived

Did you find out this country had changed a lot when you came back

Yeah when I came back, I find err there were lot of changes because, a lot of people had now come in, and err movement, I mean integration yeah was now very good, you could you mingle with people, you don’t have any problem and I liked it, and the other thing I like was err if you are here, you make you base here, and you asked for curtained item from here, you would easily be treated very well than when you are back at home, because if you are back at home they don’t take you seriously , let say if I want something from Cambridge, there is a company in Cambridge and I want something, and if I ring from Nairobi Kenya, ok we shall look in to it, and that is the end of, but if am from London ok we shall send it to you ok all right, I just go there personally, I just go there personally and get it done, and they will do it while you a waiting, like I remember when I came here to buy studio lunch for Kenya broadcasting cooperation, I rang somebody in xxxx he told me no, no those things are not with me, mine are different go to Hanger lane, on central line, and you will get such and such company they will deal with your case, when I rang those people told me come with have them, and they pack them in a very big, a very big box , I took them back, and err there I was , of course I remember when my children came here, I had a lot of money, I gave them a lot of pocket money, they stayed for a very long time with out even going in to benefit, um

And they all over her now are they

Yeah they are all over here

So how many children have you got

Five one is back at home, who was married before they came

Right

But these ones are five,

Right

With the grandchildren I have

How many

Here I have nine, home three

Have you been back to Kenya since you came here?

No, when I came here I was very sick, I had a very high blood pressure, two hundred over one thirty, I al most died, so they have tried to control it, now it is slightly bit back to normal, because you know the pressure up there is very high, no inside s low, inside the plan

It low pressure isn’t it

Yes, so if you pressure is high all ready, and you fly you can just die inside there, so I was advice not to fly, it was not my intension to stayed, because I knew I could make a lot of money back at home and feed this people, without them struggling very hard yes, which I still intend to do, now I have been given err, what is it, clean bill of health to fly, so am planning to go home anytime now

Ok

Yes

So, how difference would you describe living here to livening in Kenya, so I know we got to finish soon, because I promise, you would be off at four so

Here, if I had a job, it is good; it is good in that you are not boarded with so many things African socialism, where you take care of so many people, and again back at home because of lack of jobs, so many people are job less, they result to lawlessness, if you have you don’t live a good life, even at night they just err attach you in your , break the doors and windows and take everything they want, so every time you don’t know what would become of you the following day, but here life is ok, as long as you have something to survive on you are just ok there is no problem, yeah

That was lovely thank you very much

End.

Interview details

Name of interviewee:

Project: Luo Oral History project

Date: 4^th November 2011

Language: English

Venue: ECH Office

Name of interviewer: Judith Garfield & Halfig Barry

Length if interview: 64.46 minutes

Transcribed by:

Archive Ref: 2011_esch_luo_01

2011_esch_Luo_02

2011_esch_Luo_02

Can you just start by telling me your name for the tape?

My name is Beldine Nee

So that’s Nee, N?

N-double E

And how old are you Beldine?

I’m forty-three years old.

And where were you born?

I was born in the village called XXXX Kenya and in a town called Kisumu.

And can you tell me a little bit about the town you were born in because I can’t pronounce it, sorry

The town I was born in is the town which is used to be traditionally I was told by my grand mum that it was it was um it started out as a long time when business’ people used to exchange business’ so somebody would bring like oil you know like cow oil, oil from ghee and the other person would bring pots, the African pots made from soil and people would bring different, different things and they started gathering, they started gathering in that area and then by gathering in the area in my Luo traditional sumo means buy, shopping. Sumo means shopping so it’s, they I don’t know where the word Kisumu came to make it Kisumu, sumo means shopping so because the place was a place for shopping, became like a market they names it Kisumu, Kisumu which means like a shopping area or a shopping mall or a shopping market. Something like that, that is how my grandmother told us the name started.

And you are from the Luo community?

I’m from Luo community.

Right and, oh I’ve forgotten my question sorry it’s early on a Saturday morning. So can you tell me a little bit about growing up in the town?

Um. Growing up in the town was not easy. It was not easy it was very very difficult. We didn’t grow up, I never grew up in a very very soft life it was a very very hard life because when I was growing up education just came up. The area I am born in is the area by where the missionaries started coming, it’s one of the areas where missionaries started coming when they came to Kenya. So we’ve got a very very old church that they say is over two hundred years and it’s still there. So when the missionaries came they started introducing education they brought in a church and then I think people started thinking widely. They started changing people’s lifestyle by preaching the word of God by teaching about education and then people’s lives started changing so my grandmother was among those people who are with the missionaries who are regarded with the missionaries and I have the photos that she took those XXXX of years back with the missionaries the white missionaries. So that in my area is one of the areas that started experiencing change of life where I was born so when the missionaries came, education started, people started going to school, people started learning about the word of God, people started changing the way of dressing the way of behaving the way of life so my mother when she got married to my father, my mother where she came from they never used to believe in education especially for girls. Girls used to look after children, used to bring firewood, look after the kitchen, they taught them how to look after the kitchen, look after themselves and how when they get married how they should look after the husband so my mother never went to proper school because of that and because of where she came from. The education and the system had not started changing so when she joined her husband, which is my dad, to where I was born and brought up which the missionaries started coming and there was change of thinking, education people started realising that education was important my dad, because he had been educated, before he was never educated used to look after cattle and when the missionaries came and things started changing, schools were being built you know they used to start by going to school under trees, very big trees because there wasn’t buildings and the school was under a tree, that was school. In case it was raining they would shelter under the tree so that is where my dad started. So as the missionaries came and things started changing they started building schools which wasn’t in very good condition but was better than nothing you know they would just build something and use soil to to clay to build it and to do it, it wasn’t very nice but good for that time. So when my mother was married to my dad, because my mother was married in an area where there was develop, I mean the missionaries had come to introduce schooling and life was starting to change, my father decided to take my mother to school. So my mother when to school because my dad knew the importance of school and in that area development of schools had began because of the missionaries so my mother was interested and she was, you know when you’re hungry to do something? You really want it because you’ve never had the opportunity to do it so when my mother was married she started going to school so she was a woman who giving birth to us children as well as going to school. So she was going to school at the same time as she was a mother and a wife. So while this was going on my grandmother who was the one who was one of the ones who met the missionaries was looking after us so my mother would give a bath to us and give us up to our grandmother to look after us. So when I was growing up I never grew up in the hands of my mother I grew up in the hands of my grandmother.

Did your grandmother ever talk about the missionaries and what they did?

Yes she did talk about the missionaries and what they did.

Can you tell me a little bit about that?

Okay, she said when the missionaries came to Kenya they mostly they preached about schooling, the importance of why it’s important to attend school the importance of why they introduced school which promoted the hygienic side like they started to introduce toilets because we never used to have toilets, we used to have go to the bushes you know so when they came they introduced things like they would preach the importance of toilets then they introduced schools to teach about the hygienic, why it’s important to have toilets and just not use the bushes. The importance of having clothes, the importance of having hospitals to treat and things like that so people became interested and people started listening and people started joining the church because people realised that they wanted to know what was going on and uh wanted to a new something new in their life so people started flocking in church because from church they got an opportunity of joining schools because it was like church from church you join church and the preaching started and then church was connected to schools.

So you couldn’t go to school unless you went to church?

You could still go to school but that was like a gateway because it was important, when you go to church that is when the preaching they will tell you about the importance of school and then from there a parent will decide to make their take their children to school and not just let their children, boys, look after cattle and girls look after children and go to look after firewood, cook at home just teach them how to look after husband. They preached that there was something more than that there’s something better than that.

Do you think that was a good thing?

It was a good thing because thinking about it the lifestyle was not bad that was culture, which I respect, but there’s some areas that I think is good especially when it come to hygienic because we never used to have toilets and now we have toilets, people used to just go anywhere because they didn’t of they weren’t aware of the hygienic side of life so at that point it was good but at some point I would say that it’s changed the way of life which now has made some people’s life difficult or complicated because I would say that money, when I talk in terms of money wise, I think the trade the XXXX trade that the Luo used or the people used was I think was better.

Fairer?

Was fairer. Because you could have you’d. what they’d used to do was they’d plant their crops, XXXX, cassava, potato, maize all those sort of things because they never used to have jobs to go to work it was all men was to go building where which they did in joint, it was join effort. Son of so and so is building a house all the community would go and join, it was a joint effort there was nothing like somebody’s paying someone to do the job. It was joint effort, which was amazing.

Amazing

So woman, daughter of so and so has started her periods they would bring the aunt which is the sister to the father like for example my father’s sister, my dad’s sister. When I started my periods she’s the one who would leave where she’s married, come back home to my parents where she belongs and teach me how to look after my periods that was the aunts, the aunt who is the sister to the dad that was her job so once I start my period she would come. Period they used to use leaves, it was leaves and during the period time you’re not allowed to mix, it was private and when a child was on period they were put in a private location until the period was over because blood was not, it was private and nobody was allowed to see blood of someone, it was private. So the aunt would keep the girl in a private location, they would use leaves as pads to cover themselves because they never used to have knickers, there were never knickers. So they would use pad and you see the banana leaves they used to use the banana leaves to wear they would put during the period time they would take the banana leaves and put and then on the banana tree, it’s hard to explain but when I go home I will bring when it’s dry you can get a string, there’s a string that would come out of it and that string they would dry it was very very important they used to dry the string from the banana tree and then use it to tie one side of the banana one side of the banana leaf and the other side of the banana leaf so that the when the leaf which was used like pad was down there it can’t fall. And so it won’t fall to expose the blood. So the mum would keep the girl in this location, take the girl very early in the morning to the river, not home, because every area used to have rivers now rivers are dry because of climate change so they would go to the river, was the girl very early, the first thing in the morning at half four, not five half four, why half four? Because people never used to have tap running it was completely river they never used to know tap, nobody had tap so the river would be the only way of water. So why the aunt would take the girl to the river at that time because at that time everybody is in bed asleep and because the river runs down you would go there, wash her, make sure she washes herself because before anybody else start using water because at five people start going to get water and water for drinking must must be drawn at five in the morning, that was a rule because at five people because people used to wash themselves in the river you just strip and you wash so at five they believe the water is still fresh and clean so they use the water so they wash at that time, they draw water at that time for drinking, that is drinking water at five, six is washing water they could use for washing because at six everyone is awake and they’re in the river people are washing ready to start that day. So five was time for was time for washing for water for drinking, they put in the big pots, cool in the pots at the side of the house, which they still even have up to today at the corner. Six no more water for drinking for pots, people have now started washing themselves in the river, people have started washing their clothes people have started using the river so no more water from six, why this child is taken at half four is before anybody else starting to use the river at half four and because the privacy of blood nobody was allowed to see the blood so that’s why they go very early in the morning so wash themselves and to wash the blood. So when people go to get water in the morning they will have finished and she will be gone and when people wake up she will be a clean girl and no blood will be seen even if she had any accidents and even the leaves that would have been used to protect her blood would have been safely kept they would go and dig and bury it in a grave because there never used to be toilets, bury the blood in the grave so that nobody would know where the blood is because blood is forbidden to see, they would tell you that if somebody saw your blood, which I think was just a way of making people more careful that you never give birth, if anybody by any chance ever sees your blood you will never give birth and giving birth was very important as everyone wants to have a child so you would really try and let your blood not be seen and because your aunt also would make sure the daughter of her brother doesn’t let the anyone see their blood and blame her in future that because you let my blood be seen by someone then I can’t have a child. So where I grew up it was not easy we grew up in a very very tough life because when I was growing up my grandmother looked after us and our grandmother also because there never used to be like today you go to supermarket and you buy food, nothing like that you had to plant your own food we never used to depend on shops the only things we would buy in shops were things like sugar besides sugar anything else we depended on because I never grew up eating bread, bread I only started eating when I was growing up in our time bread was like not there. It was like we used to use like potatoes, was like our bread for breakfast you’d eat potatoes you’d eat cassava, you’d eat mixed corn, the white corn with beans, that’s what we grew up eating as we were growing up so it was the duty, because my mother was going to school it was the duty of my grandmother to make sure food was on the table to make sure everything was on the table for us as children because she was doing this for my mum to go to school because education had come my grandmother was among the officials of the missionaries so she was really doing her duty well and she understood the meaning and the importance of education. So while you are growing up we never, the school where I was going was very far because at that time there was no schools. Like my dad will tell you he went to a school where by he would walk for three hours that was the nearest school.

My goodness

Three hours

It’s unbelievable isn’t it?

Before he got to school and he said by the time you get to school you’re exhausted. You go to school you have to learn because at that time education was serious, it was not like today people, we play with education, you just go to school for granted (?) it was education was very serious and three hours to walk to school and because where I am born is mountainous, I’m born in a mountainous area so when you go to school he goes through the mountain, you pass through the animals, dangerous animals. Leopard, cheetah, name it so you’d risk just to get an education you’d risk going through all of this to get to school. Going to school, coming back is three hours when you get home your mother is waiting for you to do your usual chores because life at home has to go on as usual. It was tough.

What were your usual chores?

Usual chores at home was when they come back they had to make sure that for boys or for girls?

For both maybe

For boys it was looking after the cattle, like before my dad would set off to go to school they have to make sure they remove the cows from where the cows are kept and move the cows to a location where they would be milked so because they’re going to school they’d leave the cows for their dad or grandmother in a location where by they’d do the milking then they’d have done their part because if they’re going to school they’re going to school. When they come back they’d make sure the cows are moved to the place where it was just open, they never used to have houses they’d move the cows to the location where the cows will sleep then the next morning the same. So school didn’t interfere with everyday life so at the same time as they were going to school they had to do all of this. As also when I was going to school as much as we were being looked after by our grandmother when we got to that stage where you could work in the way any child could work we were introduced to working we were mainly asked it was going to get firewood in the bush, I grew up with firewood I never grew up using charcoal. Charcoal, no it was XXXX it was XXXX and charcoal came as I was seeing and it was very XXXX so I grew up using firewood. We would go into the bush in the morning we go in the bush and we get firewood we bring it to home and our grandmother would use it to cook for us. At two in the morning it was twice, at two in the morning we would go and get firewood for cooking tea I mean breakfast whatever it was it was never tea it was African porridge I never grew up drinking tea I grew up drinking African porridge. So you would go in the morning in the bush, get firewood, bring it back home to my grandmother she would cook, use the firewood to cook, sit down, wait because we were at that stage or we would do just normal house work cleaning because we never used to, I grew up in a house made of mud I never grew up in a house made of cement so there was never moping we would just clean, sweep it was mainly just sweeping, never cleaning of dust because the more you clean a mud house the more you spoil it because you can’t clean the dust out of it you’d be spoiling the mud so you have to be careful so you’d sweep the floor, in the morning you’d be taught you’d be shown to sweep the floor, to make sure the chairs are back in to normal because we used to sleep on the floor they would spread a mat then we’d sleep on the floor then we used to cover ourselves in you see something like this, let me show you what we used to use to cover ourselves in we never used to have blankets so we used to cover ourselves with this.

Hessian?

Yes this is what I grew up covering myself in yeah this is what I grew up covering. So we’d sleep on the floor we never used to have bedrooms there never used to be bedrooms it was just a house like the whole of this that corner was fireplace, this corner was eating place which we never used to sit on chairs, we used to sit flat on the floor and we had to sit, our legs because there was no space so we had to sit our legs crossed so that food would be put in front, we would sit here this is food, someone would be sitting here food crossed, food crossed, food crossed, food crossed. And food would be put on one plate, if it was for example if it was flour it’d be on one plate shared by everybody on that one plate if it was vegetables, African traditional Luo vegetable it would be put on the same plate and everybody would use that same plate you would take the flour from the same plate everyone and share that other plate there. It was just one plate for flour, one plate for vegetable and everybody would share there so when it’s finished you had to take the plate away. Not our grandmother, us as children you stand up, when everyone has finished you had to wait not everybody finishing and you walk away. You had to wait until everyone was finished then you stand up and if it is my duty today to go and take the plate away and wash it I would take it out, we used to wash outside just on the floor outside, and you would take the plate there it’s my duty today when everyone is finished I take the flour plate and the other one and go and wash it. That is from the age of four, there is nothing like a baby, the baby was finished by three by four they start treating you as a normal child, even though you will go and wash the plate you won’t wash it perfectly but as you wash it as you get along you will learn still my grandmother would come back later and wash it properly but you’d have washed it in the first incident so as you grow up you grow up knowing that this is part of what I am supposed to be doing so they never used to start at a late age where by you will turn around and say this is not my duty so they used to start at the age of four you’d start at four, even though you wouldn’t wash it it was only two plates never used to be a lot because the plate was made from mud we never, when I go home I’ll bring the plate was made from mud we didn’t have this kind of plate so you’d go and wash and you’d have to be careful because that plate was very precious and we had to look after it properly because people’s lives wasn’t as easy as you’d imagine.

How many of you were there?

In my family we were a family of eight but I would say from number one to number five we went through a lot of problems we went through a hard time then from number six onwards life changed so we started living in a cemented house, it wasn’t very nice but as I grew up living in a grass thatched house and it was just one room, it was one room that was that size up to you see where this yeah there. In the within the house there was a partition which was from that wall to up to here then here there was door, this was bedroom and the other partition was sitting room within the sitting room, this was my bedroom so within the sitting room was fireplace so when you come into this immediately you come into my parents bedroom, this was fireplace, this was their bed place there was no space it was so small because it wasn’t an easy life it was hard life that was what they could afford so in other partition this was sitting room within the sitting room there we didn’t have chairs, we used to sit on the floor because on the mats sometimes they would spread like this and we would sit on it so when you come into our house this was the sitting room, our sitting room and they would spread this mat and you would come and sit down on the mat. And this was fireplace, my mother would cook mainly cooking was in my grandmothers’ house but because of because she was busy going to school and she wasn’t with us until she finished my grandmother. Main cooking was in my grandmother’s place which was within the house that time within the house so we would do the cooking in my grandmother’s house we’d eat when we’d wake up in the morning in the grandmother’s place she’d have prepared us breakfast we would eat, we would do house chores and then go out playing. Back at home this place was just for my grandmother grand for my parents and within my parents my parents would only keep us to sleep in their house until when they stopped breast feeding as soon as breast feeding was over it was the end to our grandmother. As soon as breast feeding was finished to our grandmother so during the time you are being breast fed is the only time that you can spend that time with your with my parents at nights. As soon as you are out of breast feeding then you start sleeping at my grandmother’s house, yes so it was only during breast feeding as soon as it was finished you would go to my grandmother’s house to sleep the sleeping starts at my grandmother’s house until when you grew up. so because of the house in the day time when you fall asleep and my grandmother had gone to the doing her normal work they would spread a mat like this on the floor for us in my parents sitting room and you would sleep, sometime you see children have a nap so when you’re three years two sometime you’d have a nap they’d spread it you sleep otherwise at night once you stop breast feeding you used to sleep at our grandmothers house. So at our grandmother’s house in the evening you would sit down around the fire, every evening there had a to be a fire a round fire where you sit around as a family you talk matters, this is where now you get the talk, you know what is going on they would teach you about how to cook, how to look after yourselves how to be good children they would be advising you at the round fire. On the round fire there’s a round fire for ladies with my grandmother which is by the fire for cooking there is another fire for my grandfather which is for boys so he would be teaching the boys about how to take care of cattle how to take care of themselves when they grow up and they become families look after your wife this way you need to build a house this way you need to do like my grandmother was. my grandfather after the missionary came he became a what do you call somebody who makes furniture?

Oh erm a furniture maker

Yeah he became a furniture maker that’s what he specialised in so he would teach them how to make furniture because people never used to know how to they never used to have furniture so it’s one of the he benefitted from when the missionaries came he became a furniture maker so he would teach my brothers how to make furniture. When missionaries first came they brought in they introduced the tools so my grandfather had a tool I remember it was a tool for cutting tree somebody would hold the other side the other one would hold the other side and you would be cutting a tree and that is what he specialised in so at the time in the day when the cattle are out in the field feeding because sometime the cattle would be left alone you would take them around, first of all in the morning you get them out of where you keep them you remove them then they take them to the field you be with them for some time until they settle, once they sell and they’re eating there’s no problem, you still have to leave rope on them you can’t leave them to roam or they’ll eat somebody’s crops so you still have to tie on the tree you tie with rope and you tie with the tree so that they cannot roam around and eat somebody’s destroy somebody’s crops so sometimes some of the cows can be wild because they used to have horns you can still have cows with horns so they could if one goes wild they can sometime how do you call it they can sometime

Attack?

Attack because cows sometime when they mate especially the bulls they attack each other, they’re like lions you know a male lion and a male lion they never meet, when they meet they always fight so bulls are the same. A bull from somebody else and from someone they never meet always when they meet they fight so you have to always tie you have to always tie a bull in case they happen to roam around, meet the other bull and start fight because they can fight to death yeah they always fight to death sometimes they fight XXXX and the intestine come out it can be that bad so my grandfather in the day after they’ve tied the cows, they’re down in the place, they’re feeding they would come back and he would teach them how to do the sawing. So during the time they’re doing the sawing they would teach them other things as men. They would teach them how to live with woman, they would teach them how to be faithful they would teach them how to look after XXXX. They would teach them how to be a man and be responsible. Grandmother while we are cooking because it was all cooking and I remember me growing up it was all garden work, doing work in the garden, back at home cooking, going to the market to go and exchange items like if you have cassava you would exchange it with potato. If I have a bag of corn I would exchange it with potato or if something else I exchange with somebody else so my grandmother would have gone to exchange. We don’t have oil and if somebody else had oil because they used to use the cow ghee we would exchange you go to the market and you walk around and there would be areas of this people who had brought ghee they sit in one area people who have brought cassava. We used to go with her in the market to go and exchange because that is how one day you learn to be a full woman who can look after herself so you would go with her and she would introduce us and she would say if you see oil with this you know it’s not good it’s not been properly done the person must have rushed it, if you see cassava which is like this this is not done. If you see maize that is like this that is not done so you must go around and check and see the one that is like this if you see it is like this you know it was nicely is properly is ready. So she would take us round and she’d teach us how to do that so when she was going to market we go with her and she would teach us, that was mainly on weekends because on week days you were going to school because the time you were going up school was very far, my school was about an hour and a half

Really and you had to walk?

I had to walk, I walk the whole of my life to school there was no where I had to and it was one and a half hours and I would come back for lunch we go to school in the morning walk one and a half hours in the morning to school, not even walk run you would run to school. Lunch time you would come back for lunch because my parents couldn’t afford to give us pack us lunch so you would come back give us lunch go back to school as normal, learn, come back in the evening. Coming back in the evening there’s work waiting for you so I used to have one two three four journeys every day. One and a half hours going, one and a half hours coming back one and a half hours going one and a half hours coming back. Every day, every day for seven years from the age of six to the age of twelve or thirteen.

So at what age did you finish school?

I finished school at the age of thirteen.

And what did you do then?

When I finished school I went to secondary school, that was primary, so when I finished I went to a different school that time schools were schools had come now there were schools in almost all of the places. So when I finished primary school walking was primary I walked to primary there were no a lot of schools at that time there were a few schools and the school I went to was a missionary school because my grandmother also believed in missionary so she would only suggest that you would go to that missionary school because it was a very good school you know to the standard of the area of education and of discipline was very very good in discipline so you would go to that school so I went to that school for seven years from standard one, we call it standard, so I finished at the age of thirteen, thirteen or fourteen then I joined secondary. Yeah.

So discipline, was discipline really hard at school?

Discipline was very very hard and was first priority in school; I remember when you are going to school. When we sometime when we go to school I would be late and lateness would mean punishment, they never used to listen to any explanation lateness was punishment, punishment was you kneel down on the stones, rocks, which was meant as an area meant for punishment so you kneel down on the rocks for an hour or for half an hour depending on how late you are, how long or if it’s very very late you’d walk on the rocks on your knees, like this throughout the time. If you’re punished for an hour of for half hour you would be walking on your knees on the rock, besides that there was the school had a farm if you were late you would be put to work in the farm depending on how late you are you work in the farm while other students are in class. So tomorrow you will never be late [laughs] thinking about what you went through yesterday, you will make sure tomorrow you wake up very early in the morning and you don’t go through what you went through yesterday. So it was lesson learnt once anybody else will tell you I only got punished once I never got punished ever again.

Did you ever get punished?

I got punished, I got punished, I walked on the stones yes I walked on the stones there was a small small punishment which would be running around the building that was supposed to be we’d call it light punishment. So there was the building would be long like this one because it was a school with different classes so they would tell you the teacher would tell you run around the building five times non-stop so you would run around the building. Run around the building five times when you finish you come to class, that was light punishment another punishment was working in the school farm. School had farms by where we do agriculture so when the punishment depending on what you’ve done they’d send you to the farm and give you horse, the tools to work in farm depending on the work they want you to work to do in the farm then you’d work they’d tell you work for one hour in the farm or work for two hours or half an hour or forty five minutes or twenty minutes in the farm so when you finish working in the farm you come to the teacher, you apologise and then you go to class. Every punishment when you’re done you apologise and you go to class.

What did you do after secondary school?

When I finished secondary school I had nothing, completely I had nothing I went to the city to try and get, because my dad by that time had retired.

What did your dad do?

My dad was a teacher so by the time I finished secondary school he had retired. Because my dad because of education came late he started going to school very late in his life so because there was no education they used to look after cattle they used to help their dads they used to help at home so when education came and it was not like today when I am twenty I can refuse that time even if you were thirty and they tell you to start nursery you have no say, you go to school. So you find at the age of my father so many people went to school late but they managed to catch up but at the time of retirement you still had to retire even if you’ve only worked for two years. Retirement time was retirement time you had to retire.

How old was that?

Retirement during my father’s time is fifty years. So my father retired at the time I finished school he retired, it was fifty years not fifty five I think they’ve raised it now to fifty five. So my father retired so there was nothing much so when I grew up I grew up to look after myself it was now my time, my turn to look after because it was like your dad’s time was to bring you up do his part at a certain stage it was your turn so it was my turn when I got to that level finished secondary it was my turn. So my turn means I had to go out there and start looking after myself. So I went to the city just out of nowhere I went to the city, started from nowhere started by living in a very small house then I started working, I was working in a second hand market whereby I started by picking, picking clothes in the market, in the open market. There’s a market whereby they sell clothes come from abroad and I don’t know they sell them somewhere you know for people to survive so I would go in the evening, I would go in the market and pick some people would sort their clothes the ones they think cannot sell they would throw so people who’d want to start a living and surviving would go there it was an opportunity for them to go there and pick, you pick you choose and put together sometimes you go and iron and when you iron it changes their faces and then when the faces change somebody else would be lucky and somebody else would be nice and then you’d start selling at a cheap price. So I went and I started picking and I would pick, like was not as difficult as it is today, today I don’t think you can do that and survive. So I would pick, go in the market in the evening when because in the day time you have to pay for tax there’s payment of tax. Everyone who is selling within the market you have to pay tax so because I can’t afford to pay tax, I’ve only come in the city I’m just beginning you take advantage of evening when the tax collector is gone. [laughs] we shouldn’t be laughing! When the tax collector is gone so because you can’t afford and you need to pay your rent you need to eat you need to survive so I go in the evening when the tax collector has gone and I stand and pick pick pick pick pick they’re all over the market before the cleaners come and clean out to take them for recycling or take them away for dumping you pick pick pick pick pick pick pick put in a bag go home iron so when you iron tomorrow and when the tax collector is gone you stand on the side of the market and then you sell for passers by people who have come from work so if you’re lucky you will find somebody, god will send someone and will buy from me so when they buy from you when you sometime you get lucky and everything is sold because you sell them at the cheapest throw away price because all you need is milk and bread, that’s all you need and maybe sugar just for the day you don’t want to think about tomorrow. You just survive for the day so you go and sell, as long as you come out of there with milk, with sugar or as long as you come out of there bread you know you have food. You go home, you set aside a bit for your rent because rent was keep. You set aside some for the rent, sometimes you share a place it’s just a room you share as long as you find a place to put your head the next day you wake up and you survive so you do that and I did that and then as I did that I promoted myself. The small small bits added up with added up and now I promoted myself to be able to sit in the market where the tax collector is so I would be able to pay my tax I would be able to sell, buy a bale of a bag of clothes, open my own bill and sell. So I started surviving on that so I would sell I would start selling as I sold then I joined a college joined secretarial college so I did secretarial college two years paying out of this so as I went along I employed someone to look after to sell for me so all I would do is I would know the price of the bale which I know would be for example would be like in terms of pounds would be thirty pounds or forty pound or fifty pound which is a lot of money so I know that is the price so from that price I estimate that this would be the profit so this lady who I employed would sell so the lady would go for the bale very early in the morning in the store in the warehouse get the bale and I say today go for blouses today go for skirts. This season is the skirts going, this season it’s the dresses going, this season it is shoes this season it’s jumpers this season is.. you have to catch up to know at that time what is really selling depending on the when it’s like for example when it’s winter time, which is not as bad as here, you know what is selling just like England in the shops when it is winter time the shoppers know what is selling, if you sell sleeveless during winter. Stupid. So that’s what we do as well in the market this season these clothes will sell, this season is tops this season jumpers so you have to be catching up to bags just like the shoes like that you you’ll be guiding this person coordinating, how was it? Oh I went at a loss. Are you sure? Make sure that receipts are there that she writes down everything so that went on, I went to secretarial for two years, I did my secretarial for two years I finished. When I finished selling was still going on because that was my only way for survival it was still going on as normal so I promoted myself with a computer so computer I didn’t do for long but I did for six months, I did for only six months then I did computer and I wanted to know I got a few certificates for work processing and doing this and doing that so I got the basic. Because at that time doing secretarial when I did I got short hand and doing short hand was coming out of fashion unless you did becoming personal secretary to so and so which was not easy to get that level especially in my position. So it was pointless. At that computers were becoming common in offices the old type-writers was going they were starting to introduce the electrical which was starting to be in fashion so I went for computer because the old computer system the very old one was going out of fashion so I had to try and catch up so I did the secretarial and I did the computer I went to computer classes so that I would catch up with the latest system. So that went on, it went on and then after that I ventured into I ventured into car business so I stopped the business of clothes was now going down and besides that my money was, one day I was pick pocketed I went back to see how I could expand it unfortunately in the warehouse I don’t even know how my money was pick pocketed and that was the end of the story, that is how my business of market ending so I stopped that is how the story of the market ended so I stopped I end the other lady, that lady also started her own business from back there she picked up herself and she started doing business and I think she’s still in the market up until today. So I got into business of a car, to transport, I got a cheap transport and started doing transport so I did school transport which was I was doing uh school children getting them from school back to home picking them from home taking them to various schools then it didn’t do well because life was changing and parents were becoming a bit it was getting difficult for parent so they would suggest children to walk to school so business went down so I stopped so when I stopped I now went into selling vegetables whereby I had to sell vegetables so I started selling vegetables while I looked for a job, I looked for a job I did everything and I never got a job in my secretarial. I think it was just not meant to be it was not mine so I looked for a job and it didn’t work so I ventured into vegetable business and because I was having children. I was having children at that time. I was looking after my children from this business, the leftover we would eat the fruit which had not sold we would eat we would bring it at home. The food that was ran out of date we would bring home and my children would eat. I was paying my rent, my children’s school. At that time the presidents and there was school education so children went to school and all of this and that and then in the process I met my husband. We met, we communicated and then he proposed and then we got married and that’s how I came to England.

So did you get married in….

I got married in Kenya

Did he go out there?

He came out; he’s been out there to Kenya

This is Kenya, this is the lake we grew up near that lake this is lake Victoria so that is him in Kenya and this is where I grew up in XXXX where I am born we are on the equator, right on the equator so this is where my village home. So he wanted, he couldn’t believe when I told him I am brought up on the equator so he said I will have to go and see for myself.

We need to borrow that at some point

You? You need this one?

Yeah for the exhibition

Really? I’m going to take proper photos when I go home yes, I have some of them and this is the equator

That’s amazing

So I took him and he said I have to climb on top of the equator, it’s about seven minutes from our home this is where I am brought up. If you need a proper picture I will take when I go home

Do please. We need it for the exhibition

I’ll take photos

That’s lovely.

so how did you meet him?

I met him through someone, I met my husband through someone and we communicated and then he travelled over to Kenya and then we met each other and then we knew each other and we communicated and then did our wedding.

Did you get married in Kenya?

Yeah we got married in Kenya so this is Lake Victoria. This is the historical lake, this is the lake where I am born.

It’s beautiful

This is the village where I am born on the equator.

So how long ago did you come over then?

I came in 2007 in September 2007. That’s when I got my visa and then I came over so since that time I’ve been here. Three years so that’s how I ended up here.

So where do your mother and father live? Do they still live in the village?

My father and my mother the rest of their lives have lived in the village. My mother only came to live in town because of my children. When I was coming to England I had no choice but I had to leave my children with someone so I had to leave my, I spoke to my mum I brought her over to town and she’s living with my children even as I am talking, she’s the one taking care of my children. So she lives in the village not because of anything because she is looking after my children the whole of her life since she was born she’s never lived in the city she’s only lived in the village. My dad lived in the village until he died, my father died in 2004 on Christmas day, he went to bed and he never woke up he had a heart problem. So he went to sleep and he never woke up the following day he went in his sleep on Christmas Day 2004. So we don’t have a dad, I only have my mum.

Are all of your brothers and sisters still in Kenya?

My brothers and sisters we were in a family of eight and four of us have died and four are alive. So in the family number one is dead, number three is dead, number five is dead, number seven is dead. All of the odd numbers are gone and in a short space of time so it’s left number two, number four which is me, number six and number eight the other odd numbers are all gone so we were a family of five boys and three girls. Two girls are gone I’m the only girl left and two boys are gone only three boys left in the family of boys only three left so out of eight we are only four left the other four are gone. One went last year, the one I XXXX went last year. So we are only the left the four with my mother.

So you said your grandmother used to tell you stories?

Yes

Do you remember any of those stories?

Yes I remember the stories yes.

Can you tell me your favourite one?

Uh the favourite one was about a girl, a very beautiful girl very very beautiful girl who was admired by everyone. Men, woman, animals, birds everything. Everybody was admiring this girl she was the most beautiful ever seen and the beauty of the girl was she was so much beautiful that she was never allowed to go out, out of the house because they were afraid of somebody grabbing her and she was called XXXX, XXXX was her name so because she was so beautiful her parents never allowed her to go out because everyone would want to grab her animal would want to grab her human being wanted to grab her and she had a sister, the sister was called Aween (?) so what happened during the time, every time the parent wanted something, the parents were so protective over XXXX so every time the parent wanted something they wouldn’t send XXXX because of her beauty they didn’t want to expose XXXX to the world she was a girl who was kept in the house twenty four seven because of her beauty, they were worried of losing her because of her beauty so every time the parents wanted something from the market they would send the sister of XXXX, Aween so one day the birds. In the morning when the parents woke up the birds would be, they had a very very big tree besides the house very very very big tree very old big tree so when the parents woke up they’d find different kinds of birds waiting to see XXXX just to see the beauty and admire wanting to admire XXXX because she was so beautiful. So because of that the parents decided to send Aween the sister of XXXX to the market so anything to do with XXXX if anyone wanted to talk to XXXX the sister was the one to coordinate. If you wanted to talk to XXXX or if by any chance you wanted to marry XXXX it was Aween to coordinate so the birds would spend twenty four hours from all sorts of lives to come and see XXXX everyone was trying their luck to see XXXX and to marry XXXX, animals, human being and birds. So who was going to be the winner, who was going to win. XXXX as beautiful she was ready for anyone or anything but as long as she decided to choose something because in that big tree there was the most beautiful having the sweetest fruit ever. What happened XXXX said anyone who would not eat the fruit from that tree will marry me, I will marry any bird, human or animal eat fruit from that tree that is the test, that is the interview. If they happen to even taste I will never marry them so what I will say because they demand because my demand is so high that is the test I can put so my sister be my witness so one day the sister set off to the market because of communication to the market they couldn’t send XXXX to the market and that time the fruit were beautiful and the tree was all red, blooming with fruit, blooming with beautiful and the fruit was so sweet you could not afford to not eat it, it was so sweet that you couldn’t afford the temptation was so high that everyone would just say that I want to marry XXXX but the moment you see the fruit you just say ‘oh let me just eat a little’ and that is the end of it you fail the test so one day XXXX sister the dad and the mum didn’t want to get involved so XXXX sister was going out to the market and on getting out of the house she realised the tree the birds were flocked on the tree, millions and thousands and millions of birds so she was shocked and she came back and told XXXX, there’s so many birds, so many birds and then she said ‘can you go and see them? What kind of birds’ she went and said different, all kinds of birds I’ve seen them there’s all sorts of birds so XXXX says what can I do and the birds have come for you, what can we do? Then she started singing the older sister started singing [sings in Luo] which means that go and check for me which bird it is, if that bird happened to taste or eat the fruit then tell them to leave, to go which means they’ve failed the test. So the sister came out and found that the birds were feeding, they couldn’t stand the temptation, they were feeding on the fruits. Feeding on the fruits they couldn’t stand the temptation was too high so she came back to XXXX and said I’ve seen this bird for example pigeon I’ve seen pigeon, pigeon is eating very very busy eating one by one they came back what of what do you call the birds just any bird

Sparrow

The sparrow is now one of the ones that is eating, okay I think because inside XXXX there’s the birds she was hoping for so those are the ones she was interested in. what of the crow? Crow is even worse. So the song would go on, they were talking in song it was the same song it was the song of sun. What of about this bird is eating? What of this one? This one is eating. What of this one? Is eating. Then they say go back after checking and checking and go back and find if this bird is eating the she came and said no, it’s flocked somewhere and it’s not. This bird is not. She said wait and find somewhere and make sure that you look properly all the birds are eating the fruit except I’ve looked and I’ve seen that this bird is not eating, she said go somewhere and take your time and make sure that this bird is not eating. So she looked and said no, it’s not. So she looked and waited for some time and XXXX went and hid somewhere because she was so beautiful she was not allowed to be see so XXXX looked through that space and she said ‘it’s not eating’ then XXXX sent the sister and said go an buy my wedding dress because I can only marry him [laughs] so XXXX gave the sisters son [sings in Luo] so it said go out and tell this bird to wait for me, so the sister went out and saw the bird, told the bird that XXXX said that you wait, she’s going to marry you so the sister went away and brought the wedding dress, I don’t know whether used to be there at that time and the sister came and XXXX married this bird and they finally went so the temptation was to the fruits in XXXX home. It was such a big big tree bearing so many fruits and XXXX decided what can I do because my demand is so high the only thing I can do is to put temptation, everyone who be tempted to eat that fruit I will not marry but anyone who will not eat the fruit is the person I will propose to and I will marry so XXXX got married to this bird which didn’t eat the fruit so they went. I could tell you in proper way if you know I would tell you but it’s a long story so you record it in a proper, proper way one by one then you can have it in a proper way

That’s lovely

So XXXX was finally married by a by this bird, I don’t know what to call it in English but I will ask, I will ask the way I could call it in English so XXXX was finally married, finally married the bird and they went

And you’re going back to Kenya at Christmas are you?

I’m going back to Kenya at Christmas and I’ve spoken to my mother there’s some traditional items that I’m going to come back with, I’ve done orders so I’m going to come back with like when Luos start dancing they use the tail of a cow, how do you call it, you know the tail of a cow

Cow tail

Yeah cow tail. They use it for dancing you know for so I’m going to bring that. I’ve done orders so that when we’re going to be dancing we are going to be dancing with that, I know how to dance with it

[laughs]

We’ll have to video you doing it

Yeah we’ll dance in Ilford then we used to dance in XXXX skirts so I’ve ordered for XXXX skirts I’m going to bring them back when I come I’m going to order for how do you call them

Head dress?

Yeah hat, is it called head dress? A hat that they used to wear when it was dancing like when it was party time, alcohol party or ceremonial when somebody had died and they were celebrating their death so I’ve ordered that. I hope I don’t have a problem when I at the migration airport

No you shouldn’t

No they shouldn’t so I’ve ordered for that, I’ve ordered for this drum, drum is here. That’s the Luo drum. Then this is the Luo

Isn’t that beautiful

[Banging on a drum]

What’s it called?

XXXX

It’s beautiful

Then there’s this one here, this is what the when the Luo used to spear themselves during war time this is a shield but because I couldn’t buy a big one so that’s a shield. When they’re fighting somebody’s trying to hit you or spear you

Yeah that’s what you cover yourself with

Yeah cover yourself with so when they spear it would spear this. That was the defence. Sometime you just carry it for when there’s dancing you just use it for when there’s dancing depending on why people are dancing but it’s for protection when you’re fighting

So I’m going to stop that now.

[END OF TAPE]

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Beldine Nee

Project: Luo Oral History project

Date: 26^th November 2011

Language: English

Venue: Interviewees Home - Dagenham

Name of interviewer: Judith Garfield

Length if interview: 80.54 minutes

Transcribed by: Angela Hatcher

Archive Ref: 2011_esch_luo_02

2011_esch_luo_03

2011_esch_luo_03

Ok, that is recoding now, can I ask you to say your full name and date of birth please?

Um Denny Mukunde 11/77 please

Ok and can I ask you to spell your surname please if that is ok

Um M-U-K-U-N-D-E

Brilliant, can I ask where you were born

I was born in xx ( Bujumbura) actually which is um part of the East Africa community, but it more on err the central part of East Africa

Ok fantastic, and what did your parent do for work

Aah my dad used to work for the government really yeah, he is a civil servant

And did your Mother work at all

Err, not later on in life, but not in the initial ages because culturally is the man who is the bread winner, so she then get, she was raising up children

Which is a full time job in itself isn’t it

It is, it is, in all capacity

Did you have many brothers or sisters?

Err large family, I mean because it is communal mostly, yeah so mostly we had step sisters, we had cousins who we called brothers, that is large collectively yeah

Brilliant it is fantastic, and can I ask what was your Father’s job in the government was if that is ok

Err he started off as a messenger, obviously then he used to work as a cyclist moving things from government office to government office, but later on in life he did get promoted in to a clerical opportunity , so he ending up working in one of the government offices

Fantastic, and if it ok we can just jump back a little bit and talk a bit about your child hood if that is ok, um are there any sort of particular um family traditions or your community traditions that you remember as a child, that you were involved in

Um not particularly, because of the part where I grow up, but culturally I have always observed with keen interest the traditional practises of um my people, and some of it would be, err um if somebody passed away in the family, there were cultural rights, that they used to do, ie; running with the cows,

Can you tell me little bit about that if that ok

What that involves, is for the first born of the family, if a member of the family is deceased then the first boy, would be woken up very early in the morning about six o’clock then they will go on a errand with all the cows from the homestret? xxx, and they’ll say that is to chase away any negative spirit, so the whole process is called err tero buru which means in English, err taking away the dust, so we believed that, man was taken from the dust and if he dies he goes back to the dust, and then the cows are used to chase away any evil spirits that may accompany the deceased.

It is fascinating, how young would you be aware that was a particular tradition, do you think

Um, I first become aware of it possible in my teens, but I haven’t be aware of it until actually saw it with my eyes then it took my with surprise and at the same time, it fascinated me, because it something I have only observed once yeah

In term of your fascination what was it in particular do you think fascinated you, was it the ideology of it, or the kind of visualness of it, do you think

The visualness of it, the ideology behind it, and the dress code, because people are clad in the traditional outfit and they had um, um like crowns made out of grass so that was to display a sense of royalty, and it involved the entire um village at the time,

It sound wonderful, and when you say that it was a crown of grass what was the rest of outfit like

Err we had for the people who grew up around the village area they had hides skins traditional outfit made out of goat skin, and some had no shirts on but err their private area were covered decently but err the rest had shirt, a t-shirt, but the people leading the procession where traditionally clad and they had to sort of err coronate the first born in that family and put the crown of grass traditionally on his head yeah.

It must be quite inspiring sense to see all that traditional dress

It was and it, and it started off at six, in the early morning and they were not back till about nine o’clock so we are looking at about hundred and eighty minute, so three hour of procession

That is long procession isn’t it?

Yes it was

They must have required quite a lot of energy to be able to part taken it for that amount of time

Yes it did and err the preparation because they had to traditionally set off early, before sun rise so I will presume they got up possibly about five in the morning most probably but by six they had to leave, so it was a drove of people just heading toward one direction (laughing)

It must have looked very impressive

It was yeah

It sound wonderful

It was just to witness it, and have a first class experience of what that really is and to later learn that this was, part of um ancestral tradition and it been carried on today, so just to see it in modern century was something that left me thinking deep about my heritage and roots.

Of course, and you said um I kind of get the impression that it was very impressive for you to see so many people in traditional dress, would people worn traditional dress on daily basis or was it more um some people did and another people wore sort of less traditional clothing or

Um historically as far as I recollect traditional clothing are used on big ceremony, i.e.; on weeding days or when somebody is vying for and high office or when they need to get and approval from the society, then we had our own special traditional regalia which has a lot of esteem and um to see that on that occasion as well, it depicted um the authority that we confined on to as a first born, in the family when they are bereaved because what that instigates is the fact that, somebody is taken leadership, the head of the home has perished so his responsibilities been transfer on to his first errm sibling so it wouldn’t be something that people will wear traditional outfit all the time on memorable occasions yeah

It like a right to passage

Yes it is, it those yeah because is something we still practise I mean um I haven’t been involved deeply in those traditional right but it is part of my make up, so I do observed when ie we had political leaders ascending in to offices they still had to go back to the village area, and then call on the elders of the community, a type of a chief who will then bring out the traditional tools, spear, um and err shield and head ornament, and then just confer the authority and blessing of the entire community, yeah so it still goes on to date yeah

It is amazing

It it

You mention about obviously the elders in the community, how many elders would they have been or was it just everybody over a certain age or in a certain position or

It is very interesting you ask that, because within there been changes throughout, our culture and traditional but one noted fact is, the head of the tribe still remains and the person is called ker ( k-e-r ) and it’s one person who represent the dynasty because we believed that um we came from Egypt and as nylots? we then migrated but we had to be under ruler ship of one head, so that headship has always been confer o to and individual, who then has his own councils, so he has a council of elders, which is like a cabinet but the dominant personality is one individual who then delegates who is who. Yeah..

And that is a kind of headship the ker is that sort of past down through a family then or

Ooh yes it been, but with modernity people have started asking question because we say, how can you nominate, and elder who might not even know an international language, so how can we hang on to traditional rights that can hold us back so there been challenges, to that sort of regime, and um the leadership is been tested in a sense that we have more advocacy, from people who had studied in modern universites, out of the country who then do not want to partake of that type of linage, because they deem the leader as ignorant to some extent, so it been challenged

(Laughing)

Currently as we speak (laughing)

So is that kind of a recently in the past decades or couple of decades that started to happen do you think

Err it just happen, as far as I am aware it happen within the last five years, because I do a lot of news reading and research and err we had um with the crisis in Libya, we had our leader who is call the ker, go up and try to reconcile with err Gadafi to some extent because we got people from our community, who actually live in Libya because we used to occupied Egypt then we moved down to East and central Africa, but we got part of the Nubians who still remain there, so the ker went and was trying to mediate between um the African union and Nato and then people then started asking question, was he politically um empowered to represent the views of an entire community, was it able to highlight the problems that are causing the crisis, so that’s when people started um questioning the role of this person, yeah because he been founded by the community, I assume because they have to be on wages, and yet there is poverty in our region so, it’s something that is coming under deep scrutiny yeah

But his main purpose I suppose was to look out for the interest of his community that were still in Libya

Yes still in Libya, because even after that we had um I think one of the Americans civil right leaders Jesse Jackson did say that there is alot of persecution of the black Africans in Libya, because they used to be the army in Gadafi’s regime, so most of them used to be in the military, which is something that is part of our heritage, because we had a lot of history of err being warriors, so he was just looking up for the best interest or people that we know belong to the err our generation

It is really interesting, to hear this sort of politic of it as well

Yes it is, it is very –very political but um I think historically, to know that we had um a dominant influence in the South and err Southern Sudan yeah, because the Luo from Sudan and the Luo in Kenya, we speak the same language, so we understand, we might not be in mediate brothers and sister, but we do share a common heritage yeah, so that is the role of the ker is just to unite the all the tribes, because we are quite a large community, yeah where we settle now in Eastern and Central Africa just in one part in Kenya we got um twelve regions, now this twelve region even those we are from one tribe, we have differences because you will find one part has a different um mannerism, from another tribe, and one tribe might say no you can’t married from that area, because you are brothers and sisters right, so where I settle before I even decided to married, you have to called your Father your Mother and they have to trace the generation, and they say no you can’t married, because you are closely xxx so then we have to look into another part, of the um Luo community and then go and married from (laughing)

(Laughing) it sound quite a complicated process really, doesn’t it?

Yes it is, it is because, we all came, the person who we take after the leader is called ramogi is a leader that is like um, how would I put it, is like a king, he had historically from what I have heard , he had so many wives, but all this wives end up having about twelve sons, this twelve sons all settled in one area, so then it was difficult because some had daughters some had sons, and we had to prohibit marrying from that particular area, until other Luo came from different areas, and then we could go and marry them, so there is always been that type of scrutiny when it come to marriages, we have to really dig deep, sometimes two there generations before you are allowed to rightfully have your wife (laughing)

It is fascinating we are talking a little bit you know xxx the rules in ration to marriage could sort of describe a typical weeding to me if that is ok, if it is possible

Um I haven witness, but I will just used my parent as an example, because in our culture we marry through recommendations ie somebody had a daughter who is good, beautiful, well manner, well cultured, there is always somebody proposing ansd say aah I think your daughter will be good for my son, so wedding’s have always been done that way, and it just today I was talking to one of our community members and they decided they, I think it is my time to get married, so I need to go and speak to err one of the elders, and then just get them to get me a nice, decent, beautiful girl yes, he is hoping to travel, not to say that there are no women in this country, but I think traditionally you find it a lot more safer, and the reason why we used to we are very particular about our weddings is, when we moved in to East Africa we found a lot of tribes there, now as soon as we came in, there was war, when the British came, they found that we were engaged in serious civil war, among other tribes as well. Because we are fishermen and we had to secure the lake basins, we literally we drove out all the tribes and occupied the lake basin, so we never used to allow other tribes to come and marry, until very recently so Luo are very particular, they never like intermarriages, because we had a heritage to preserve, been in a country we were not the indigenous people, we never gave our trust to anybody, but that has stared changing recently because you had Luo marrying from other tribes, europeans, locals tribes but it not a commonly practised errm activity, it is still Luo and Luo, or in very rare occasions Luo and somebody from outside, so marriage were deemed very, very sacred there.

And important like you say preserved the heritages of your people

Yes

So you never actually witness sort of ceremony or something like that

Ooh I have, but the way it done um, it is modernised

Ok

Yeah, because we, I believe the second generation, from our peers, so our peers were more traditional, but we are more modernised to some extent. I like to say in comparison to how our peers started off so even though the wedding is done in a modern day setting, the ethic or the ethos of it still remains, you still have to involve the elders and they have to come and then bless the marriage, because we believe we don't like divorce, I mean it something really unheard of in our culture, but we see it a lot now, because possibly people don't value the co principles

Even within the Luo community

Ooh yeah

Ooh really

It happening now, I think people are getting a liberal mind so in comparison to the values we hold I mean there might be, a seeming clash.

Yeah

But we still hold dearly, our um marriage values, yeah because we consider it um a sacred institution.

What do you think of those morden influences do you think, do you think some of them are good thing and some of them are bad thing, and can you think of any examples of modern influences you think is good or bad you think if that even possible(laughing) it a quite broad question I appreciated that

Yes it is quite broad, I mean being the person we are, I mean we are very democratic

Yes

So always advance for change but what I have seen within our particular ethnic groups is people have become too liberal, and lost the balance in liberality, so I support changed in a way, because time have to moved, and you have to change with the flow of the season, yes we seen a lot of good thing, and we also seen a lot of negative things, but I can’t really attribute that to change, because we have always have our mind to change (laughing) been a luo, we always focal I mean we always question things, I do a lot of questioning, but as long as the question is put forward to help then there is nothing wrong with that

Yeah

As long as you ask a question with an answer that you placed on the table as an alternative then, changed really should not be balm for our own um xxx I think what we are experiencing and blaming on modernity the fact that possibly we need to kind of slow down and then just allowed changed and growth to be couple together

It is quite interesting what you say about the Luo people been you know quite democratic and quite you know sort of out spoken sort of people, because I did little bit of research and they do seem lot of people from the Luo community that seem to do quite well in things like politics or sort of you know right movement and thing like that, and I was wondering whether that is inherent in the culture or whether you think that is kind of a learned thing in particular family or

I think I will like to say I mean with xxx, I think it is genetic I mean when I say that, base in the fact that we do a lot of observation being fishermen I mean, you expose to the sea, you expose to nature, then when you look at the animals for instance, one thing that we really lay our um educational achievement on is really observing, tiny species like the ant for instance if you study how they exercise the ruler ship is quite fascinating because there are so many species of ant, and they all perform different functions, and I remember one day I was seated and I most have stood in the path of an ant , and I was at xxx because I was in the village and there was no light, so I was there screaming, because I just felt my body being rip apart, I don't know what it was, and I was screaming and I literarily have to strip myself naked, just to realised this were pharaohs ant that I stood on that their path, and they were massively weighing me down, so then I have seat and start studying the ants, and see how could this small creature almost humiliate me in front of a whole procession and then I started realising that the ant really, they are very smart people they are small, but they share common intelligence they are very democratic, they devolve their system, they store their food, and that has always been the bed rock of my reasoning, so I say if I know something I will break it down to a way that, will help you, so that what our people because we been always been referred to as ants, and um even onetime I remember my Mum seating down and looking at ant and calling me and saying “look at this people” if only a government could work like this

(Laughing)

We could have no course to conflict would we?

It is a good point, if politician where like worker ants we wouldn’t have much problem would we

So, that is where we get our inspiration from, I think it just the rules of natural consequence if you pay attention to what nature has to offer, then you learn alot, but in as much as we also vocal in civil right movement, I always tell my people to, one thing I considered is we need to learn, the art of bringing out information, in a way somebody will not feel intermediated (laughing) because I will say Luo sometimes would come a very intermediated, you present a fact xxx (order that it is) but you need to explain were you getting it from, so usually think that we need to balance that yes we had a lot of change lot of contribution academically , politically, but we need to involved everybody that is why, xxx yeah we need to refer every one to the ants, every one to the xxx everyone to the spiders, and then everyone to the xxx who are also a small people they do the same thing as ant yeah, so

So relating everything back to sort of nature

Yeah, because that is where I believed we get our wisdom from fish, you are a fisher man, you have to learn about physic, so how we will you get your boat, you have to float so it just a little observation yeah, but the sad thing is our area is still very under develop, in as much as we have people in high places but something is not been brought back to the ground, so I will say it time that we started paying more attention to what nature has to offer, and then work in relations to what other small creatures are doing yeah

That is wonderful I am just curious when did you come to the UK

Um I been in the UK I came in 97

97 ok, and what was your reason of coming over in 97

Um usually I mean we had a lot of, historically we had a lot of persecutions yeah, we had if you look at the history of political assassination there is no other tribe that has been affected, more than the Luo people. That’s not just in Kenya, in Uganda, in Tanzania, in Zanzibar as well, and um there are period in time as late as 2007 as well where we had err ethnic cleaning and I think the case is still at the Hague where we’ve always suffered um disadvantage for being too vocal I mean that is not to say that it a particular tribe being targeted because other people from other tribes as well share the same fate, so most of us had to leave for political reason yeah, if that was not the case then, yeah we probably will back to the dust as well (laughing)

Yeah It kind of quite sad really isn’t it you feel that you had because you spoke your mind, you kind of feel that if it doesn’t go against you know if it goes what the government or whoever is official in charge of the time it can be a bit wrong yeah

Yeah that happen, and I think as well, I mean um because we been vocal I mean yeah throughout the years university if you look at the student campaigns, it’s just the same thing but is how you say it, because you could say a right thing to somebody who might preserve it differently, and they might then start persecuting you yeah, sometimes if there is a safe get away then it good to see what the world can offer

What was your first impression of the UK when you first came here?

Ooh very-very interesting yeah, because UK offers ours um a chance really it just an image of what we always had inspiration for, yeah tolerant, democratic society, where laws are respected, where people are valued for their contributions, where um people will share their experiences, share their knowledge ,where education you can start learning at whatever level regardless of how you educational background, so UK was quite interesting, I remember my first experience, was um it was with an immigration officer yeah, she was a lady and err she was asking me questions, we were talking, and she was elderly and she was very –very compassionate in a sense that she listened to what I was saying, she asked me questions, I answered her back, in full sentences and she was impressed, I mean she was just helpful, that was my first contact, so after that then the language barrier, even though I speak in English but I had problem with different accent, because I have meet some people from Scotland or Ireland I just can’t understand what they are saying,

I have the same problems (laughing)

It took me a long time yeah to get to learn what, um the indigenous English man was trying to put across with, but with time, my ears open and then yeah, I found England to be a very interesting place yeah, I have been here since then (laughing)

And still happy (laughing)

Um yes ooh yeah, because with time you develop you grow and then you then realised you have the same responsibility, as you to have had at home, and then I have seen England changed over the years in term of um cultural integration in terms of values, and now the same sense of change that we had in Kenya, is what we are seeing here as well, yeah so I listen to UK politics I follow what the politician have to say, I am actually studying law, because I am still going to uni, and then hopefully get in to government and polities yeah, so really I will say UK has offer a life time opportunity yeah, and the same duties we own our country, is the same duties we own England, because we have to put something back we might not have the money, but we might have the experience and knowledge, at least to help somebody, because we got generation of err our people growing up, and I think this is one of the course why we are involved in what we are doing now

Yes

Yeah (laughing)

It think it is wonderful you know, how difficult do you find it sort maintaining more traditional values or traditions in this country then you did when you where back in sort of East Africa

UM one thing that we find difficult to detach from is the food, because

Because English food is blank and terrible (laughing)

So that has really –really xxx and the fact sometime you share accommodation, how of multiple occupants, you get different tenant, and you still have to cook your traditional food, sometimes the scent of the food itself might not be aroma friendly to the rest of the people, so you have to sort of introduce your culture to them, and then speak before hand tell them the type of food you eat and so when you prepared it they are not taken by smoke shock, so what happen is, we build up very good relationship with most of the um the different community here in the UK, some of them tend to love the food so culturally, that is being addressed because we can get our traditional foods, the other traditional um concept I don't really share that type of believed because we always believed a woman should not work, it a man who work, and provide for the woman, but my Mum changed that because she defied my dad um proposition saying no I have to get myself work, some of those traditions I don't hold, neither do my friends who grow up within my same time but, the rest of it Luo traditionally a lot has been changing because, I have just said we never used to circumcise, but that has been defied over the years because people started asking why?

Right

So we excising the right of freedom of, of course matching it up to scientific evidence, because now, recently they discover circumcision does diminish some percentage of um aids err possibility towards infection so, what did err people in my Luo belt do? All of them rushed to be to be circumcised. So we that kind of people, if we seen sense in something we will follow it, if we don't see sense in something, you will have more chance in meeting the pope then convincing us yes so , something we hold some we let go, yeah, because we are Modern democratic that is how we describe ourselves.

Brilliant, it there anything else about obviously yourself you know the Luo people or anything else you will like to say for the recording or anything that you like to be

Yeah it just the language, because I fascinated by the Luo language and I believed it’s an ancient language that dominated err the world at one point, why do I say that because I always tell people everyone is a Luo man, and they asked me why do you say that? Because everything that is spoken be it in English, be it in Hebrew, be it in German, it has a Luo inclination in one way or the other, so why do I say that for instance, the Germans they will say achum that means stop, and that is the same thing we say in Luo xxx I am standing, and then there are so many dialects’ that sometimes I see it and pick up something in my language but it is spoken in English, for instance the name Solomon, that was like Hebrew name, now Solomon was a king who got a lot of wives, now in luo somebody who takes a lot of wives does a process called Solomon, that somebody who taken wives, that is exactly what Solomon did, so when I was reading that story, I thinking Solomon, Solomon it sound repetitive but am calling out the name Solomon, and then I am speaking in luo, so-lo-mon, so the luo language is poetic, it’s expressive, it’s artistic but unless you understand how it flows, you can used the same the letters and talk for two houre like I said so-lo-mon ooh so-lo-mon, so-lo-mon, Solomon, oolo-so-mon, mon-mo-solomon,lo-so, so it is the same xxx been used and it is producing a language, so am thinking this is very artistic, and that is what inspire me, and sometimes I am in class, and I am stock, but if I interprets things in Luo then I get all other various and I am able to write my essay, and the teachers are asking me, how did you? I said I just, I believed Luo is the language of the soul, and the soul bring out loved, the soul brings out compassion literally the soul is who you are because, that’s the core of your existence that is your conscience, that’s where your moral dialect is, that is where law of conscience, are all embedded so as Luo we always believed in a supreme being, we believe in one god, so if we relate to nature then we relate to a god who created all things, so one thing that makes Luo unique I can say is the fact that we welcome anybody, you can come to our culture, and I won’t feel intermediated, I will be willling to learn from you, so if I see you are good in doing something, I will tell you my lady Claire you are suited for the job, you do everything, I will work under you, that the sort of people we are, and um that comes from the soul, and I have seen it help me in so many ways it help my community in like we get along with anybody, we don't like pedigree, we don't like victimization, if somebody soak wrong about somebody I will call them aside and tell them that, that is not ethical you shouldn’t do that, so we always loved people, and we tell people everyone is a Luo, because it is a language of the soul, and from the soul you get the letter L-U-O which is Luo, in fact soul is written the other way is Luo (laughing(

So all makes sense isn’t, all comes round

That is right, I don't that before I close, there is this German, um I think he was a German philosoper, or a German doctor, he made a statement in the eighteen century and say the people who rule in the ascent Egypt they spoke a language and his believes was that tribe still remain there today, so he came to East Africa form Egypt and he trace that because he had certain dialect in him, and guess where he end up, he ended up in the Luo land, in xxx so when the Germans came, they are the first nation who colonised the Luo area before the British came and the Germans we got on along with then, because we used to understand their language, if we take time and study we used to literally understand what they were saying, and in Tanzania because we got Luo there as well the German were beating and they were wondering how are this people intercepting our intension, but the answer was in the languages so people could seat down and just hear what they are saying, decoded it turn it round and it was all coming up to a language that was easy to understand, so they had to leave, so what we are saying is, we all share that common language, it not, Luo are not just a people man, it peoples, because everybody has a soul, and it is that soul that unit us, and makes us all one, so we don't look at race, we don't look at colour, we don't look at predigest, we well come everybody, and we work with every body

It sound like a wonderful philosophy to lived by doesn’t it (laughing)

It is because if you loved somebody, you don't do somebody wrong yeah,

It fantastic sorry I just remember one more question I would like to ask if that is ok

Yeah

Um you mention early about obviously when you where learning to live with other people you know, things like food things like that , are there any traditional sort of um particular dishes that kind of jump out in your mind you know, yours and you had to introduce to you know your friends when you where livening with them

Yeah with Luo, it’s just standard you can’t detach a Luo from a fish.

Right

But is how we make it

Yes

Like now I got um Polish resident and they always you and your fish

(Laughing)

Xxx (laughing) and they see me coming with shopping yeah; fish is our main delicacy that is we have always esteemed, I don't know why, but that’s what we really like yeah

Ok, do you think that relate back to obviously what you where saying earlier you are fishing men so you know it kind of

Yes

Directly translate isn’t it

It dose yeah and we also learn a lot from the fish, yeah because the fish gives us curiosity into the marine life.

Um

Yeah so, it just something that I can’t explain but we always had a very deep connection to the species yeah.

Fantastic ok well thank you very –very much for been interviewed I will err stop the tape now and let you go back to your party

It my good pleasure Claire

0:41:21

[TAPE END]

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Denny Mukunde

Project: Luo oral history project

Date: 10/11/2011

Language: English

Venue:

Name of interviewer: Claire Days

Length of interview: 43:49.3

Transcribed by: Halfig Barry

Archive Ref: 2011_esch_luo_03

2011_esch_luo_04

2011_esch_luo_04

Ok, can I ask you to say your full name and date of birth please.

Oh my name is Charles Lutimo(?) Akudo

Could you spell your surname for me please.

A-K-U-D-O

And your date of birth please?

20^th June 1963.

Brilliant, and can I ask where you were born please.

I was born in Kenya in Nairobi.

Nairobi

Yeah

That’s quite a large city isn’t it?

Yeah

What was it like living in a large city?

Mmmm it was challenging, though interesting and very adventurous

Yeah, and what did your parents do for work?

Er, my dad was an accountant and my mum was a sales girl.

Okay, and did you have any brothers or sisters?

Yeah I’ve got two brothers and three sisters.

Wow, large family.

Hmmm

And erm, w-what did you do, er what school did you go to when you were growing up?

I schooled in Nairobi

Yeah

In Government Road Primary which is now Moy Avenue Primary.

And what was that like? Do you have any sort of enduring memories of your school days.

Mmmm yeah it was fun you know, it was very competitive. We enjoyed going to school, a school with all my siblings in the same school.

Mmm, okay and erm, in terms of your, your dad’s position as an accountant, erm would he have had to go to erm school or university or anything to have done that?

He did not sss, he did not do much of formal education but he did professional examinations much later.

Right ok

To erm better himself, hmmm.

Fantastic, and, and what was it like growing up erm, in, in the sort of late sixties and early seventies in Kenya?

Mmmm, life was easy.

Yeah

Most things were....., most essentials were available. And it was adventurous, it was, it was not hazardous as I see today.

Wh-what do you think of it is about these times today that er, are harder than they were for you, do you think?

I think now there are more people, there’s more competition and the resources are fewer.

And in terms of the Luo community, erm, how, how much a part of that community was it, was it quite an obvious situation to be in that you were part of that community or?

Er, to begin with, my dad was a chairman of the Luo community from where I come from called, called query(?)

Okay

In Nairobi, he was a chairman for many years, and that projects like building schools, because they realize one of their main project was Nyakongo(?) Girls, because they suddenly they realise that there are no girl schools where we came from, so then back on one end. I actually it was quite successful

Fantastic. And can you remember any sort of big occasions as a child where you would have been exposed too sort of traditional weddings or funerals or anything like that?

Er, actually I come from a Christian family so most of the weddings have been Christian, but we used to, every, every, every long school holidays we used to go back up country, to the reserve and we reside there for the entire period until come back when schools are open.

Could, could you describe that experience of going to the reserves in the holidays?

The beginning it is a shock, because my Dad only had a hut. He had not built a house. He only had a hut. So, we found it a bit, and then we ..... we had to go and do a bit of farming, which was done manually. And it was actually an ex-, quite an experience because it’s something we are not exposed to before.

Um, c-could you describe um, maybe like you said it was quite a traditional way of farming, erm, could you describe in what way it was like that?

It was traditional in the sense like, they would laid traps for ants. To feed the chicken. And we used holes and you know? Holes and machetes to dig.

So it was physically quite hard.

Physically it was quite involving, physically.

Yeah

Hmmm

Would you come back from, er, er day exhausted do you think?

I was young then, so I had all the energy [laughs]

[Laughs] Could have done it all night! [laughs]

Could have done it all night but may be today I would ss, I probably can’t do it now [laughs]

[Laughs] was it quite a long day then? What’s the time in the morning would you start?

You would start fr-, very early because normally you f-, you will leave the farms when the sun starts scorching

Okay, so you would finish sort of a-about lunch time normally.

By about lunch time would be leaving it

Okay

Because then it should be very hot, because Kenya’s quite a hot country

[Laughs] compared to the UK definitely, um, and, and what other things would you do when you’re on the reserve over that summer, would, would you erm, I don’t know see relatives or?

Oh yeah we used to visit relatives we introduced to our relatives and sometimes we do walk to the lake because I come from the shores of the lake and we try and swim though we are really questioned about swimming the lake because of crocodiles.

Wow

[laughs]

Did you ever see any crocodiles?

I did not see any but I had occasions where people have got eaten. [Laughs]

Was that quite common?

Huh

Was it quite common that, that would happen?

It’s very rare but it happens, it’s very rare but it happens because you’re not, people try to go for and get water early in the morning. And that’s when they get caught

And, and did you ever go fishing on the lake yourself?

No I’ve never done fishing because u see we don’t fish with rods there. They have to use a boat and actually fishing is quite restricted only to fishermen, licensed fishermen.

Do you know if it’s quite difficult for those fishermen to get the licence to fish on the lake or?

I don’t think it’s quite difficult for them because there are many of them, it’s doing it and in the morning they come back with a lot of fishing.

And, and, and during that time when you were out in the country rather than in the city, would you see more traditional practices of the Luo people do you think? Like erm, like if, you know the funerals, traditional funerals or?

Yeah I would s-, I’ve, I’ve attended quite a few, a number of funerals and ss, the, this was a xxxxx traditions, like the chasing of the cows across the village. It’s they, they regard that as bring the cows to mourn the person who has departed [laughs]

Okay

If it is a xxxx person, so they’d be running across a village, the cows, and then they would drive to this pier, like they're coming to attack you and just stop right in front of you and then run across again to the other direction. So if you’re not quite familiar with that, you would get scared. But since we knew they were not going to harm anybody, we would just watch it and laugh it off.

Was it quite exciting to see that kind of, display as a boy do you think?

It was exciting because actually their, the first they put is it’s interesting because they don’t really mean what they’re doing but [laughs] they somehow manage to do it.

Could, could you describe what erm, the traditional dress that they would wear or?

Mmmmmm actually but in my generation we were not about to see any traditional dresses because people just dress normally. Traditional dresses were discarded mainly as before we xxxx

Okay. So, so no one would wear sort of traditional clothing, they would just have like the spear, like you say

They just be dressed but they have a spear

Okay, fantastic, and erm, b-, in c-, in comparison to the, the life in the country and the life in the city would you say that you had a preference for either? And if s-, if, if you do, which, which one, do, do you think you would prefer and why?

I prefer the town, there’s more hardship in the p-, and to because even things like.....things like electricity and water

Hmmm

They would just xxxxx come there

Okay

[Laughs]

So it, it was a better standard of living do you think in the city?

The, the city’s got better standard of living.

Okay. You mention that when you first started going to the reserve in the summer holidays that y-your father had a hut. But I don’t suppose you could describe that s-, or erm the experience of living in it would you?

Yeah, it was. It was a round hut, it was divided in to three. One section was like the living room, and one would be the kitchen and the other one would be the bedroom. And it was actually grass thatch [laughs] mmmmmm

And, and s-, what was it like living in, it was it, was it, did it feel quite close quarters, considering there were, you know quite, quite a, alot of you sleeping in one room. Was that quite difficult or?

We didn’t ss, we didn’t regard it as difficult then. Because we didn’t know of any other [laughing]

[laughs]

Because even in the city we actually managed to get space when we were a bit older. But when we were young, it was ....

So you would have shared bedrooms and things before anyway?

You never share beds.

Yeah

We shared beds

Okay

We’d share mattresses on the floor [laughs]

Fantastic. So, so what did you do when you left school?

What me?

Yes

I.....pursued accounts like my dad.

And, and did you

And I worked with a Kenya T Development.

Hmmm

For about eight years, before I came to this country.

Could you describe that experience of working? Like what was it-what’s it like? Did you enjoy the work, was it quite....

I didn’t enjoy the work, because the pay was low [laughs]

You think you would’ve enjoyed it more if you got paid

But I would have enjoyed more if we got paid better, hmmm.

Okay. Why was it quite poorly paid? Was it poorly paid in comparison.....

Because of the standards. Hmmm [laughs]

Okay [laughs]. And in terms of politics in the country when you were growing up is there anything that sort of stands out in your mind is, erm having an impact on you, and lifestyle and your family?

Of course we used to see a lot of political assassinations and you have things like. It was ah one party system where not all are allowed to participate in politics. Hmmm. It was a bit oppressive.

Do you think your parents found that difficult? Living un-under that system?

My parents were open to positions and er, I don’t think they found it difficult because they didn’t know of any other [laughs]. You see I mean with politics, when you get educated about your rights and you get enlightened then you get to know that you’re being oppressed. But before that life is just normal because you don’t know of any other way of life.

So was that that the attitude that you had, do you think, when you were, when you first started working? Were you....?

When I first started working I also thought that was the norm

Mmhmm

But as we grew and you know? Read more, then we realise that we are being suppressed.

And how did that make you feel? Do you think?

Of course it feels depressed but you know out there in the sunshine actually, people don’t get actually really depressed [laughs]. We just get upset about it and get xxxxx. Hmmmm.

And, and wer- d-, were there any erm, sort of rallies or things like that? Erm, that you were aware of? That were taking place or was that also suppressed?

Those came much later, when I was older. Those came in the nineties, when people started j-, revolting against the system.

Hmmm

And their system started opening up and changing and they started creating more democratic space.

Okay

Up to where we are now. But we have free and fare elections hmmm.

Fantastic. And, and when did you move to the UK then?

I came to the UK in 1995.

’95

Hmmm

And what were your reasons for coming to the UK? At that time?

A better life. [Laughs]

[Laughs] In what way were you expecting a better life?

I knew standards here were higher than in Kenya. Hmm, so I knew that life would be better here. Hmm

And, and what were your first impressions of the UK?

I was actually quite impressed because I saw development of the standards that are not realise are achievable.

Okay. And, and what in particular do you think was the kind of most noticeable difference between life in the UK and life in Kenya for you do you think?

Here the system works

Yeah

[laughs]

C-could you expand on that a little bit? If that’s okay?

I mean you pay taxes, roads are built, there’s electricity, there’s water

Hmmm

And everybody’s entitled to it. And you know, you pay things and get the services.

Do-, d’you think the rural communities in Kenya didn’t see that so much as, erm, may be in the cities. Like you say you know you had like electricity and things in the cities but they didn’t in the countryside. Do you think that was bi-, big for that reason? That you know taxes were paid but they weren’t filtered through enough?

No there the system simply doesn’t work.

Right okay [Laughs]

[Laughs] it doesn’t work, you have to pay the bills and pay more to get better services. [laughs]

And, and what about things like erm, I don’t know erm, fa-, favourite food or things like that, wh-, did you find that quite difficult to get in the UK at first or?

Initially it was quite difficult, but as the numbers increased I think the market opened up. Hmmm.

And, and can you think of any sort of erm traditional meals from your childhood that you try to recreate over here now or? Any particular dishes and...

I tell you sooner or later more-more, most of them are available because like, eating the tilapia fish, you know the tilapia?

Yes

Yeah and things like eating, what do you call it?.......hmmm, the insides?

Erm, offal

Hmmm

Like offal, do you mean?

Yeah

Yeah

You know those ones are not available but these days you can get them.

And, and do you think that’s, that’s a good thing that it’s kind of more, more international now and that you can.

I think it’s a good thing because even, by the time I came to this country things like crisps, they used to scrap all the meat and throw the bones. But to see where we come from we enjoy ripping the meat out of the bone yourself [laughs]. So by the time we started buying them, actually, the-, they were, even selling them for a pound, but now you just buy it like meat because of the demand.

So th-, the, the sort of erm, as, as the Luo community got bis-, bigger in this country, your saying that the market sort of responded to that and the desires ....

The markets responded to that because, you see most of Africans there’s closeness in similarities of what they eat so, they get things like, cow foot and things like that. Now you get them and you know? And you get west Africans eating it and this xxxx eating it.

And erm, how, how do you feel the, may be erm, traditional values that you grew up with a boy. How-ha- do you find them difficult to maintain in the UK or? Do you think that the community is strong enough to sort of perpetuate their own heritage and things like that?

I don’t find any difficulties because it’s just by choice hmmm the way you live is by choice. Yes, hmm.

Do you think you have a close knit community here in the UK?

Of course we do yeah.

Yeah

We do because that’s the only [coughs] that’s the only thing you lean back to.

And how is it in comparison to like, like I said when, when you were growing up as a boy? Do you think that it’s the kind of lifestyle and the people that you know are, are similar? And it’s just been transferred really, overseas or?

No, of course society changes. A lot has changed and people don’t want to bring up their kids, there are brought up [laughing]. So really there’s nothing really there to hold on to.

Hmmm.

You know things change and kids are become more independent, they like to choose the way the-, they would like to be brought up.

Hmmm, I interviewed someone earlier. And erm, he said that erm, even today, erm, people in this country when, when it comes to a time to get married, they will still consult elders and things like that. Are you aware of anything like that? Do you think?

Er, I think they must distinguish between consulting and consent

Right

Because it’s not actually consul they look for, they just consult to inform them of what things is going on. So, I think that is quite an honour because it’s family, you have to let them know, what is happening in your life.

Yes. And is there anything about your time growing up in Kenya and obviously the years that you worked there, that you would like to be recorded that are reflective of your life or the history and culture of your people?

Actually I’ve not been quite culturally brought up because I’m brought up in the town.

Hmmm

So really I’ve nothing to cling on to [laughs]

[Laughs] Okay.

Hmmm

Is there anything else you would like to say for the tape? Or were you okay?

No I think I am okay, with all I said.

Okay, brilliant. Thank you very much.

Oh thank you.

Just stop that

[TAPE END]

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Charles Lutimo(?) Akudo

Project: Luo oral history project

Date: 10/11/2011

Language: English

Venue: Ramfel Offices, Cardinal Heenan Centre. Ilford.

Name of interviewer: Claire Days

Length of interview: 18:40.02

Transcribed by: Li-Anne Tan

Archive Ref: 2011_esch_luo_04

2011_esch_luo_05

2011_esch_luo_05

Ok ay can I ask you say your full name and date of birth then please.

Doreen Abyambo

Could you spell your surname for me please

Er, Vicente, my surname is Vicente, V-I

V-I

C-E

C-E

N-T-E

T-E, And your date of birth please

Twenty-first, twenty-second of February ’70.

Fantastic, and can I ask where you were born please?

Kenya, Nairobi.

Nairobi

Mhmmm

So you grew up in the city.

Yeah

Yeah, and what did your parents do for work?

Mmmm, my mum was a housewife and she used to do small business initially and my dad work for the post office as a s-, engineer, was a supervisor.

And did you have any brothers or sisters?

Yeah, we had ten

Ten, wow.

Five girls, five boys

Wow

Yeah

It’s a big family, isn’t it.

Yeah

What was, what was that like growing up with so many brothers and sisters around?

Well it was nice, the house was always busy and on top of that you have aunties, you have uncles, you have, er, you have a house maid, so there’s, the house was always full. So it was, it was interesting, it was nice. Noisy.

[laughs]

Yeah

I can imagine

And my mum was always busy cooking alot of food, we had a lot of food, we had. My dad had to buy a lot of food, so it was plenty of food in the house.

What kind of things would your mother cook for you when you were a child?

Erph, mostly the normal, Gali, you know Kenya Gali, sucoma wiki, meat, cabbages. Of course we love Chapatis, we cooked alot of Chapatis, beans and rice. Rice not so much, but yeah. On Christmas days, special occasions. Yeah

Sounds fantastic

We have that, yeah.

Did your mother teach you to cook as well?

Oh yes! I was erm, there were four girls I had with me. No, three girls, so, so for a while I was the youngest girl so of course, I had to learn from them. So I didn’t do much cooking but I have to learn. My mum did most of the cooking and then my eldest girls, but I had to cook, because once the eldest one went, I had to take care of the little ones.

Right

‘cause I had, I was in the middle, I’m the fifth one. So, I had five behind me.

Yeah

So I had to cook for them. So I had to manage....

And, and w-, do you think that was quite traditional really, that the girls would learn to cook from their mother and...

Yes, yes, we have to.

Okay

We have to cook, we have to wash, we have to clean. Yeah we have to do that. Boys, not so much.

What kind of things would the boys do then?

Er, because we lived in the village, er not in the village, in the city, ‘cause I had an older-, but most of the boys were young. I don’t know what they did. They just tidied their room or just play. Really, I can’t remember much ‘cause we used to do the washing, we did the cleaning, we did the ironing. Maybe just going to buy things in the shops. I can’t remember boys doing much....

[laughs]

....really, maybe, occasionally sweeping the compound.

Right

Yeah, or if there’s a dog, taking the dog out. Such, such things.

Yeah

Yeah

Brilliant, and, and did you go to school, in, in Nairobi?

Yes.

Which, which school did you go to?

I went to primary school, Martin Luther Primary School. Then I went to Precious Blood Secondary School. It was one of the best, it was a, run by, is a Catholic school actually. Run by German sisters. It was one of the best schools. The top schools in Kenya. Precious Blood Girls School in, I can’t remember xxxxx, I can’t remember yeah, yeah then I went to xxxxx Girls for my A-level.

Wow.

From there I finished, I went to xxxxx University

Oh wow

For my degree.

What did you study?

I did agricultural economics.

Wow

Yeah, Bsc.

A-er -and, ah, do you have any enduring memories of your school days? Or your time at university, that kind of you know, big events or moments in your life that you would like to talk about?

Erm, school, I can I remember because we live in an estate. It was a relatively new estate, called Buro Buro which was quite far. My school, can, was it five or ten miles, but what I can remember is we had to walk a long distance to school. May be ten, fifteen miles, I can’t remember, but early in the morning with my brothers and sisters, we have to run to school. Be there by 8 O’clock. If you’re late of course there’s a cane and then at lunch time, we have to take the same journey, run back home. Eat lunch quickly, then run back to school [laughs]. You know? For the afternoon lessons. May be only in the evening then it will be leisurely ‘cause you, there’s no rush, you can just walk. But I remember running a lot. And walking a lot. And we just. That’s primary because it was quite a distance. It wasn’t easy to get to school nearby so. So what I can remember of school is the running and the, the long journey, and also there’s a big compound so we used to do a lot of cross country, a lot of games, so. There was a lot of sports. And I think that’s why even I started running cross country because is, you’re always running, you’re always have to be on time. There’s no question about it. Now so that’s for my school day, that was something that really stick out from there, started running, running a lot. Yes.

You must have been very good at cross country [laughs]

Oh yeah, yeah, I did. When I went to secondary I used to run from, not the best, but I ran for my school team. For the cross country because there it was just you have to go for the nationals, so it was just running. I think it’s come from the Kenyan. Kenyan blood. The long distance runner [laughs].

[Laughs].

‘Cause we do a lot of running

Hmmm

Yeah, secondary school, cause it was a Catholic school. What was good about it was a discipline. It was very nice. Because it was a girls school. So, they really taught us a lot of cleanliness. I remember the school was always the top for cleanliness. Because after the school in the evening, each house, every girl had to go in to cleaning duties. Toilet, dusting the skirting boards, so everything had to be clean. So this school you couldn’t find a paper down. So, the cleanliness was good, the beds when you wake up in the morning, they had to be straight and they have to be checked. Your school, your shoes even, where you hang your panties, all have to be neat and tidy. Everything! So the discipline and the cleanliness, that’s something I really learnt from, from secondary school and in, from the nuns you know? And of course there was also devotion, their prayer, evening mass, morning mass. And erm, and theirs teaching was quite good, ‘cause we really did, I did quite well in my secondary ‘cause really discipline and good teaching.

Hmmm

You know? And the sports, we also did a lot of Hockey. It was quite, I was in the Hockey team, so it was a good school for hockey. One of the top.

Wow

For hockey, Hockey nationals in, So I enjoyed my-,doing the cross-country and doing the hockey. Hockey team and the schools sports and also in class. So it was well all round. It was, it was really good. Yeah.

Sounds wonderful.

Yeah

Sounds really good.

Yeah and then [coughs], I went to stay at Statehouse Augustus for sixthform. That’s just sss-, it was much in the city. ‘cause Statehouse is just next to the Statehouse itself yeah the presidents estate. Yeah so those were very short yeah, just three years xxxxx. It was just next to their univers-, so it was just starting to put in the life of university and life after school. You know so, there are also playing hockey and again the discipline is not as good as with the secondary school with the nuns school yeah but...But it was still a good experience to train as in, people from different schools coming together for two years and then went to university and er, of course [laughs] er, university was okay. The only thing I remember in university was the riots. Because when we went is when they introduced the school fees and all that. So of course when the school fees...Students always go out on the streets, so I remember [laughs] we are in one big xxxxx I think or so. One of the politicians was tied was killed and every time something like that. Students will always go out and riot and, so, I remember those days of rioting and the xxxxx police will come and interview people and take it to sell the things like that. But they were just angry because we had to start paying school fees and the government was stopping to give us, I think they started giving loans and grants and you have to pay and so there was that transition. It was during that time. But it was fine, we just, we’ve finish, we finished well and yeah we all graduated and then after that, soon after I came, I came here.

Okay

Yeah, so.

If it’s okay to jump back to your early life, erm, do you have any early memories of may be taking part in sort of traditional festivities like weddings or funerals or anything like that?

Funerals, f-funerals I remember was a big, is a big thing with erm, [coughs] with the Luo’s, the- the one erm, many remember was my grandmother’s funeral. Yeah because my, my granddad had fffive wives, he went with polygamies, we’re polygs-. So we lived in a big compound, so I remember when going back to the village with my dad always, we have, you know the way they, Luo homes xxxx. We have the father at the top of the village and then starts with the first son on one-, the right side, I think right or left. Then the second son on the left. Then the third son. Just the way they house, so they all in a circle. So because my f-, granddad had five wives. So the first wife was next to him, then the second wife, they had the third w-. So it was a huge, it was big home state. So when you come in, before you get to your Dad’s house, there’s your grandmother, there’s so many people come to see you and you can go to any house have dinner, have lunch and nobody’s worried about you. Everybody will come to see you, so in the evening, oh women used to cook. Men don’t, don’t, they don’t cook really. [laughs]

[laughs]

So in the evening each, each house cooks food and then they bring it to the big table for their men. So men would just come. So each house, each wife has to bring some food you cook whether if it’s xxxxxx meat xxxxxx vege-, but each house has to bring food. To the big table. So’d my granddad and my uncles will come and eat and they can criticize which food is good or bad but the women will not eat. Women you just go and eat the leftovers in the kitchen. So the men really had it nice. So but then during the funeral, of course when there’s somebody, takes a few days before everybody come. But because I was young when, when er, [coughs] when she passed away. But I remember during funerals is always, people have to come. There’s a lot of feasting, and there’s a lot of, they have to slaughter cows, people have to eat and, and there’s this er, tradition before. They call it Teru Buro(?) I don’t know if you’ve heard it, Teru Buro(?). So, they say is, when before af-, as soon after the body’s buried, I think they bury before around three o’clock. After the body’s buried, they have to chase the spirit. So, we just after all the buried, as young people we just see all these men dressed in skin and xxxx with spears! Everybody coming with us, terri-, making noise, a noise like they’re chasing this spirit so they just came from nowhere and running across and I found that, you know? Very intr-, interesting. When they say they’re after bo-, they have to, chase this spirit away and then, of course after that then you have to stay for three days you, I think you have to, to stay with the body, until they, it goes for three days. It just feastin’ and you know and all the eating and xxx things, yeah. I mean that is one of the main thing. But of course there were others like if....er if it is a husband who died, the wife, so because by tradition they’ve ha-, uncles or the in-laws have to take care of the xxxx. So that was quite xxxxx. My mum is, is not. So before everything is done, so they have to get, one of the uncles have to take the woman and may be they have to have like a relationship or a physical relationship to say. You know to symbolise that now this person will take care of you. You know after, you know so it’s like his, you don’t feel as if you’ve been left out. So is like if a woman, the husband died the family, uncle whether will keep on looking after them, after the wife. I mean those are the tradition but nowadays, I don’t think we’ll do that.

Does that not happen very often then anymore?

No it not, no it’s, not now. Not so much.

When did you notice that, that those so-, ty-, sort of traditions started to change? Do you feel?

Well I think with my mum, I, is more when they become more Christian, so now my mum goes to church of England. So you know when they, I, with a lot of Christianity. Er so they don’t want to mix with tradition. So, even when my, my dad passed away we didn’t have to do those traditions. But I remember with my un-, auntie she had to do that. So, I think it’s with the coming of Christ-, Christianity so ...right now with my generation I don’t think. My mum also, some are still doing it but most are just not, not doing such. Yeah not a lot, so we just. Is more of a Christian, you just bury and stay at the grave. No I just pray normally and yeah and that’s it.

How d-, how do you feel about that? ‘cause obviously from your description of it, it sounded like quite a wonderful spectacle really so....

It yeah, it was, but the-, unfortunately, you know because on Thursday we have the old people who kept their tradition, and you know tradition is passed through story. We used to get a lot of stories from my Grandma when you go to the village they used to tell us so many stories and, and there’s a way in which you start story and how you end a story because if you don’t end that there’s xxxxxxxxxxxxx. They have to always finish a story like that. ’Cause if you don’t say this they say that you’ll have a bad dream, a nightmare, but you see with us our, our mum didn’t te-, they told us but kind of if lost it we didn’t take it from them and we’re not telling it to our children, so it is, it is getting lost which is, which is really sad.

Hmmm

You know and also, with the economy people tend to move to the city looking for jobs. People want to move on, so when they go to the city and leave the village, they meet other tribes ah their traditions and, so they tend to forget their traditions and think their traditions are not important and so that’s how, slowly’s just, it’s just disappearing. They’re no practising it any more.

Hmmm

Or they get married to other traditions, other tribes and they take over those tribes or other people will say your tribes are not good and you know? So they start comparing and then you start thinking no may be my tradition is not good. So either they stay on their Christian or they adopt the modern, the modern culture. Yeah so....i think is just, by opening up and going to the city and having inter marriage. So it’s just dying

Oh that’s a real shame isn’t it?

Yeah, I know it is.

And d’you, d’you remember any other kind of particular traditions that you would have experienced as a child that may be aren’t around so much anymore? Like, erm, was there a certain way a wedding ceremony was held for example or?

Erm, yeah. Yeah peri-, for-, I know those of quite a bit, you know like for women had to, this left the teeth, you know the Luo tradition they had to remove the sixth teeth

Ok,

Spesh

could you tell me a little bit about that if that’s ok

yeah, it used to be women at a certain age, I think when they puberty or something there is six, I dunno why six. But the six lower teeth had to be removed. They used to say it makes them beautiful, or something [laughs]. So, if it was beautiful or it just shows the endurance, cos having your teeth removed is really…I think it’s those traditions that you can endure such pain and you’re not mature enough. Yeah but I used to ask my grandma, I mean why that was done? But when they eat or maybe it’s because they can’t eat, women you can only eat the heads, you know the foods that are not so the legs or maybe it stopped women from eating certain food or for men. Cos when your teeth is removed you can’t eat meat as such, it then becomes difficult, you just have to chew. So maybe it was to discourage women from eating certain types of meat, xxx but they said it was for beauty, so those are some of the things xxxx, I’m quite glad I didn’t have to go through it [laughs]. Because, I mean once that teeth are removed, you know, it becomes difficult. And also for marriage, I think that was long during the marriage- there was the tradition where before you get married, errm it’s kind of the…your fiancé have to come to your home at night and take you, or kidnap you, or something like that. It was more like a victory for the men, the women’s mum was there, so they’d come at night, kidnap, your parents don’t know where you are and you know until they come in and pay dowry, cos dowry is paid to the woman, so the man has to pay the cows, the number of cows, it’s mainly cows. So

Hmm.

So they have to pay the cows and the girl’s family have to accept before the girl is released. Some of those are good, because it’s like the value of the girl, you have to because you’re going to leave your family to be with- so they really have to pay something for you. Of course the kidnapping part I don’t like but I still like that one, that still happens now but not so much. Now there is just money. Yeah but they have to pay the dowry, before you actually get married, you can officially say your somebody’s husband. Yeah so those are some of the things, which, which is still be there.

Hmm.

Otherwise we just get married nowadays and the parents have to consent, you know before they have to come to the girls and they have to see the family, they have to know the family, they have to check the background, are they witchdoctors, are they good people, are they bad people, before they consent. There’s no way you can just marry anybody. And of course we can’t marry relatives, so they have to make sure there’s no blood relationship and if there is some, any slight relationship or then you can’t, you can’t get married.

Ok.

Which is good. Because nowadays you can just meet anybody and get married, later you realise you’re related or same family, or you don’t know the family background, which I thought was really good because you just know the person, but you don’t know the family history. And some of these things comes and affects, affects your so…

That’s really interesting. Do, do you think life in the city was very different from life in your grandfather’s village then?

Well yeah very different, I think if you lived life better, I should think so [coughs]. Because it’s peaceful, because they have these big xxxx, they have farms, it’s the xxxx you know, there’s vegetables. There’s always food, you can go to the garden to get food, go to the river, we all go take bath in the river, there’s section for men, for women, don’t really have showers at home. We just all go to the river, have it with the antelope and together, take the same river, you get the water, you take it home…surprisingly we didn’t get so much sick [laughs], with all the water. It was, it was really good because there’s family there, grandma or ma cook the food and people tend to eat together, you know as a community and you’re free to go to anybody’s house, you know to eat, with no worry. But in the village, I mean in the city, you have to be careful, you can’t just be out at any time, once it’s dark that’s it. In the village, the only problem is the wild animals, that’s, that’s the things, at a certain time if you have to go out but kind of they don’t attack people so much, cos when people have lived in the village with them, they know, they just coming to get the animals not people. But that’s the only thing you’ll be scared of [laughs], you know being attacked by hyenas mainly, hyenas are the main ones, or being bitten by a snake. But I never got bitten or anything, you know so it was, I find the village was really…and it was peaceful, at night it was really peaceful, you have clean air, you know, errr good atmosphere, there’s not so much of this xxxx, so it quite soothing and errm living it was good, the village is too polluted, yeah too many cars and we walk a lot cos there’s no vehicles, so we walk to the market, walk back to the river, walk to the doctors, there’s not really many traditional doctors, so we used to use a lot of herbs, yeah just normal herbs boil them if you have a stomach ache, drink and the sickness goes.

Can you remember a particular remedy maybe that you know, you either took or you saw being made and what was in it?

Yeah. Errm I can’t remember but we used bitter, this was for upset stomach, I can’t remember the herbs but we used to have that. The mum used to boil them for a long time, the leaves are brown and then we’d drink the water, the water was very bitter, at least everybody was supposed to drink a cup. And it was very good for indigestion, so after you, everything just comes out, it’s just like a detox, so you all go toilet and your stomach is clean, it’s like detox, it removes everything. You know, so if you have a stomach ache, which just had that, have boiled, you drink it, it’s very bitter though but afterward you’re fine. And one which I tell you, is what I tell you is what we call, they call it afita, afita. So it’s like, some use tobacco leaves, is you put in your nose and it makes you sneeze, so it makes the nose itchy, I don’t know what it is but if you have a blocked nose, you sneeze it and you just, you just sneeze, sneeze until your head is clear and that was good, we used to have it every month and mum all children and the whole house, we had tissues and hankies and everybody sneeze everything out, which was good, so after that, like now if my daughter is so decongested, like now they take all this inhaler but still it doesn’t come but that just take everything out. So that is something that I still remember, those two. And they really worked, they were really useful and I wish as a mum now, I’d really like to, when the children have blocked nose, give them that, sneeze it all out and they’re fine.

Can you not get that over here then?

No I can but only, I don’t think I can. Only when you get home, then I can get some but here, I don’t know, I haven’t checked, maybe, I haven’t checked if I can get it but it’s very good.

And when you were growing up, how aware of you, were you of the political situation in Kenya?

Well, I was aware because I’m a Luo, my father was very strong ok and the ruling party was mainly Kenyatta, it was Kukuo and Luos and Kukuos do not go together [laughs], of course with my dad would always say everything against the Kukuos and the President and there was xxxx at that time and want and then the Kukuos were always the Luos. So growing up we were really aware about the tribal issues, especially the Luos and Kukos were great enemies. My dad even swore never marry a Kukuo in your life, there’s no way, you know [laughs], there’s no way you can. So because of politics it also came to other aspects of life, we are great enemies even in school, my dad used to tell me ‘A Kukuo should never beat you, you should always beat them in class’ you know, ‘you’re better than them.’ So we’re really not but that tension political was there, also when Moi came in, there’s a lot of, the problem with Kenya is there’s a lot of tribalism, so when he came there was too much, too obvious, cos my university was in Eldoret, which is more of Kalenjin area and I had many friends who were Kukuos, who are staying in the Kalenjin area and it was during that time we had the Majimbo and the Kukuos were being chased out of the Kalenjin, because they are saying it’s not their land, because during Kenyatta they got their land but now because Moi is the President, he wants the Kukuos out. So many lost their houses, their houses were burnt and had to be chased and it was obvious when the Kalenjin get, the President who is in power, their people get the priorities, get whatever, so it was just too obvious [laughs]. Yeah you can see, so if you’re not in power, you’re marginalised, you know you don’t get anything. So this one was really bad, it was obvious you know, so it just, it goes so whatever comes next to power, you know their people will get what they want, the rest, you know even from a young age it was something…

And in terms obviously, you know you say whoever’s in power, the other tribes felt marginalised for that reason, how obvious was that, in what ways was that demonstrated?

Jobs.

Jobs.

If you’re going to look for jobs, if you’re the xxxx xxxx, you will get the jobs and that’s the main thing, you need a job to survive. You know, so getting the big positions, especially in government offices they will have all the big positions, so the other tribes, either they get the small positions or you really don’t get, you don’t get a job. Even in schools the headmistress or the top heads will be from that tribe, yeah we can see it, at my school my headmistress, one was a teacher but the next thing she was the headmistress of another school, just because she’s from the same tribe, so promotions could happen so drastic and it’s just too obvious, you know? Yeah so those people were not from that tribe which was ruling, you just, you have to work so hard to get anywhere. Or even if you want to get something from the government, like either papers or loan or money it becomes so difficult.

How did that make you feel?

Well of course it makes you angry at times and it brings hatred and there’s a lot more tribalism, so, so growing up because seeing it from my father, hating especially Kukuos who that time were in power, you also ended up growing up hating them and you think ‘Oh we’ll never be together, they’re different they have all this, we don’t have this.’ And it is there’s and we become separate in the same country but we can’t do things together and it comes living here it still happens up to now, it hasn’t changed you know.

Do you mean it happens here in the UK as well?

Even in the UK, we have Luos and Kukuos and we hardly do much together, you know? So even in the embassy it might be Kukuo, it might be..tend to be the same tribe in one [coughs], in one ministry. And another tribe in another, so people working together I don’t know how it’s working now, xxxx is very difficult for Kenyan and that is something they have to work on, that tribalism things, it’s just avoiding development really, yeah.

So when did you move to the UK then? How old were you?

Xxxx ’96, I was twenty- six, yeah.

And what were your first impressions of the UK?

Well, what do they say, it was cold. [both laugh] I came in January so...[laughs]

Mistake [laughs]

Yeah it was cold, it was busy. But one thing I would say, it was organised, you know? Because there’s signs everywhere, if you can’t speak English, because when I came I had a tube map and then you had to go somewhere in Lancaster Gate, so just that and I go there cos from Victoria or wherever cos I came through Europe. I mean from Victoria Station, you got to the tube and this is where you are going and I go there. So there’s that thing, that is organised you, you can read, you can see, it was sort of a xxxx, there’s so much light, they’re so many, you know? There’s so oh everything, it’s just and so it’s so clean, it’s so nice it’s beautiful, you know? Nice things compared to, uh what you have there really. I found everything was quite neat, organised, you know? And people, people are just disciplined, you know? There’s no chaos, there’s no chaos. In Africa there’s a lot of chaos, people are moving here and they’re not. But here everything is in time you have to do this and everybody knows what they’re supposed to be doing, you know?

Can I ask why you decided to come to the UK?

It was just to continue my studies really.

Ok.

Cos I wanted to carry on into a Masters, so that was the main thing.

And did you achieve that here?

Yeah, yeah I did.

Where did you go, if you don’t mind me asking?

I came, I did my marketing at the Chartered Institute of Marketing and then I did an MBA in err in Greenwich school of Management, for the university of xxxx, yeah so that’s what I did.

Good for you. [laughs]

Hmm. Thank you.

And you said, did you get married here or did you go to Kenya to get married?

No here, here. My husband is not Kenyan, he was in Europe, that’s why I came to Europe, he’s from Mongolia but he was in Czech Republic so, so he came here and then we just got married here.

And what kind of ceremony did you have, did you have a traditional one?

Oh no we just had registrar.

Ok.

[laughs] But err but three, four years ago we went back home and just to meet the parents and is yet to take the normal tradition, he has to take the cows, you know he has to still go home and buy errm and you know with the tradition you have to go buy a cow and walk it to the village, you can’t just say, you have to walk with it from the market. [both laugh] So he’s yet to do that and he can’t just, or he can just send one of my brothers to buy and take it to the village. So he’s gone, the first time you go you have to go home and ask for, what you cannot ask for hand in marriage is called ayeah? So you went home to give something to my mother, you know to say I have you daughter and give some money as a symbol, just to say we have agreed you can have the daughter. But he has not given the dowry which is a big thing, which should be given to my dad and that is a cow, two or three so he’s yet to do that, he has to go and walk a cow to the village [laughs].

Is he looking forward to that?

Yeah, yeah.

Good [laughs].

Before he does that, they don’t consider me married, you know they don’t consider all this...you know/

And do you think it’s difficult maintaining sort of traditional practices and errm, I don’t know traditional sort of lifestyle in the UK or do you find that your community, the Luo community in the UK does band together to hold that?

For me, I find it very difficult, you know? That is something that is like, yeah we’re overwhelmed, you know? When you come you have bills, you have family, you have to go to work, some have to go to school, so that just takes over, it’s like for example right now I’m a teacher at a college, so that just takes over, you know? They have from Monday to Friday, weekends you have the children, you know you have all the other housework. So of course I’d really love to have things like this but it’s just the time, you know. Some of us work err my husband works night shifts, you know because when you’re there, you work night shifts or day shifts, so we don’t have that, so it becomes difficult for people to come together and do this things, you know really it would be nice if, if they could do it.

Is that why you enjoy events like this evening?

Yes I did in fact for my children because they miss a lot, especially stories, cos when I went to Kenya I bought so many stories err but you can just read them, you know. Somebody speaking them and telling you, is much better than you reading it.

Yes.

It doesn’t make...so I really want them to here these things and I want them...even the one before for drumming, my daughters enjoyed the drumming cos they like, in their school they do African drumming, they like to do African dance because they have to, otherwise they will forget it. Because otherwise it’s just telly, so they don’t know anything so...something like this is really good for them.

What kind of stories do you mean? Are they kind of, are they kind of like fables or..?

Yeah fables yeah, I bought a lot of fable books. Maybe why the hyena or why the crow crows at night and why the chicken, you know those kind of stories, so those are the ones I bought. Cos they were the ones we used to be told, why so and so xxxx, the stupid girl or the clever girl, or didn’t do this or didn’t listen to their parents or went to the forest, you know? Yeah...

It sounds amazing. It sounds like a lot of fun.

Yeah, yeah it is.

And is there anything else about your life or the traditions of the Luo people that you’d like to be recorded? Anything other than what we’ve talked about? If you’d like to add anything about yourself or your family?

Hmm...I don’t think there’s anything [laughs]. But I think some of the traditions, most of us we didn’t understand them you know? We used to think maybe our parents or our grandparents were really crazy or primitive, why do they do these things? For example having the [coughs] cooking you know? Before you’re married you need the three stones to cook with the house in the fire, you know? But really they had meanings behind it, there’s the stability, it brings warmth but we didn’t know the reason, we just used to think they do this they do these things. And I think it would be very important, if maybe we sat with them and they told us, cos I’m sure them they also learnt it from generations to know why they do them, cos once we understand the reason why they do them and the reason why they lasted for so long, they must, they must be a reason, they must be valuable. Yeah cos once we lose this tradition we are falling apart you know? We’re not so stable as them, our families are not stable, we are all over the place. But our parents used to be stable, even with the polygamy family, this was polygamy but it was all united, it was all stable. We didn’t have maybe single parents, you know that’s one thing cos they’d always be somebody to take, to take care of you. We didn’t have so many orphans because there’s a family, you can say my mum, my dad because there’s a family for you.

Hmm

Now if your mum is not there, your dad is not there it’s either care or somebody else. But that one was, the family was always there, your extended family is your family.

Yeah.

And that is something here we really miss and generally you’re happy, you don’t feel lonely but in this life we tend to be so isolated, it’s just your family; your husband, wife, mum, what is it called? Nuclear family. So and then there’s a nuclear family, nuclear family is so isolated and it can be so lonely and that is one thing that I miss, that family that extended family tradition. And I think that is something we should work on.

Hmm.

And keep it yeah.

Are you keen to teach your own children then about the traditions and the culture to make sure it carries on?

Yeah , yeah definitely. The tradition, the language, I’m starting to teach them the language, you know? They have to know the language is very important, you know at least a few words, they have to know that and a few of the traditions of what we used to do or if something xxxx...yeah.

Fantastic. Thank you very, very much.

Ok thank you.

I’ll just stop that.

[TAPE END]

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Doreen Abyambo Vicente

Project: Luo oral history project

Date: 10/11/2011

Language: English

Venue: Ramfel Offices, Cardinal Heenan Centre. Ilford.

Name of interviewer: Claire Days

Length of interview: 38:33

Transcribed by: Li-Anne Tan and Kara Black

Archive Ref: 2011_esch_luo_05

2011_esch_luo_06

2011_esch_luo_06

Okay so that’s recording now, can I ask you to say your full name and date of birth please?

My name is Felix Omanje my date of birth is 21^st of August nineteen seventy one.

And can I ask you to spell your surname please?

OMANJE.

And can I ask where you were born?

I was born in a place called Nairobi, is in Kenya.

And can I ask what your parents did for work?

Actually my Dad, my Dad was a surveyor and my Mum was a nursery school teacher.

And that was both in Nairobi as well?

Yes, yes.

Okay, and what was it like growing up in the city?

A mix of both really because we had a normal African setting, we had fun time, we had school time, we had family time, so it was all round I think, it was quite nice.

Could you tell me what schools you went to in Nairobi?

I went to one school called St Mary’s, I went to another one called Muslim Primary that was in my xxxx education, I think they are the only two actually and my xxxx was called Nairobi Primary, both in Nairobi yes.

Is there anything about your school days that you particularly remember that particularly stands out in your mind?

Apart from the discipline I had this one teacher who was called Elizabeth she was so bad, well not bad, she was so straight and you had to be there on time, you had to finish your homework and she could take you back to your parents and just sit you down and give you a wallop in front of your parents if you don’t do anything right or if you do something wrong at school, she was that strict, I remember that today, yes.

I’m sure that would be something that stays with you doesn’t it.

Oh yes, oh yes, and you know as you grow up and now you look back and you say oh she was absolutely doing this for our good and look how we turned out. I passed my examinations; I want my kids to go to the same school so they get the same discipline. It’s cruel if you look at it in a modern world but it works, it works yes.

Fantastic and growing up did you have any brothers or sisters?

I had one brother, my younger brother.

That’s quite a small family compared to some of the people I’ve spoken to isn’t it?

Oh yes, oh yes, this is, my Dad passed away in I think nineteen seventy six and that was it, my Mum never got remarried so we were only two so that was it.

I’m sorry to hear about your Father, I’m sorry about that.

That’s okay.

And how aware were you when you were growing up of your traditional community sort of traditions for the Luo community?

We were, in Nairobi there’s that setting of xxxx people always meeting somewhere or in a like a relative’s home, there’s this visit that goes round, we can be in your house today, next weekend we are in somebody else’s house, your cousin’s house. So we actually mingled together with other people and we meet other tribes as well who come in and just have fun like we did last week, everybody just coming in and food and drinks and then you go back home and that’s it. And we were told that this was to bring up kids, to bring us up knowing who we are so that you don’t get too attached to your xxxx which was right.

Do you think it was more difficult maintaining those traditions in the city than it would have been maybe if you had lived in the countryside?

Yes I think so, I think in the city it’s quite different because after that you get all your parents going to work, you get your Mum or your Dad goes to work and then you have that xxxx of being alone or doing whatever you want to do after that, but back home in the countryside there is always somebody, there is always a nanny or somebody who is living with nanny who is just looking after kids, yes, there’s not much freedom there [laugh], apart from xxxx.

Did you use to visit the countryside quite a lot; did you have relatives out in the countryside?

Oh yes we use to go and see, because my Mum had a, some of her sisters and brothers back in the countryside so, and on Christmas we would all go back home and have a get together party and Grannies, all the great, great Grannies, yes so we get to meet the lot.

Is there anything in particular about maybe your Grandparents for example would they try to, because I’ve heard the xxxx community has a really strong tradition of storytelling, is that something you would have picked up from your Grandparents or was that something you weren’t so familiar with as much?

I think I must have picked that up from my Grandpa from my Mum’s side, he worked, he use to tell me this story that he worked for the British Colonial, what were they called, was he a home guard or something like that, it was a security for them and actually he was one of the first people who went on top of Mount Kilimanjaro, I had a picture of him on Mount Kilimanjaro, I’ll try and get it for you someday. He use to tell us a lot of stories of how he lived, he was a xxxx, and speaks very good English and he passed away early this year in February, God bless him. So yes we use to have a lot of stories of how the British come in and how they use to take care of the people and scholarship and all the things so yes.

So he was quite positive about the British experience?

Yes he was, he was, he said many people didn’t, later he realised that many of the home guards that were being marginalised because they worked for the British Colonial Security or whatever they were called those days, they had a name, so when the government took over they were sort of sacked and he got job at the Kenya Police Forces but he said got demoted, or thinks, you know how it goes, because he was not part of the thing, yes so that was it.

Obviously that brings in quite a lot of politics at the time in Kenya?

Oh yes, oh yes, there was, Kenya was a very young country then but you can imagine this was in the sixties, you can imagine they could be singled out and be told that you know you are the British before you are, you are killing your brothers, or your protecting the white people, something like that. so that was a division then and he told me first hand and I really felt bad actually for him and he ended up working for the B A T, British American Tobacco for twenty five years and then he retired to go back home.

How aware would you have been do you think of the politics of your country when you were growing up because obviously you weren’t born till the seventies so you know your Grandparents talking about the sixties you probably wouldn’t have remembered things like that so much or would you have later on in the seventies and eighties maybe?

Later in the seventies I could still pick up, like I said the other things were really helpful and people would meet up and just the stories flowing from one another. I use to work here somebody in the car industry, it was quite an industrious thing telling stories and letting the young ones know what has happened before and I think it is from there that some of it sunk into my head and it never went because for me this was a firsthand experience because I’m talking to somebody who was like in a war in those days and now he’s still alive, yes that really, really got me.

You mentioned briefly a minute ago about how if someone was in charge then other tribes maybe marginalised and sort of pushed to the side lines a little bit, did you ever experience anything like that or see it firsthand because of the political situation?

Me as a person?

Yes.

Much later yes, it’s still going on up to now xxxx. The current government well they haven’t been there for a while, I’ve been trying to follow up on the news and all those things. The current government is from, basically formed from a tribe called Kikuyu [?] and for a very long time they took over after Kenyatta, Kenyatta was our first President, he was a Kikuyu, and the corporation that bought Kenyatta in was between the Luoes and Alua [?] which is another tribe and Abeta the Massi [?] but eventually the elders agreed to give it to Kenyatta who was a Kikuyu so in the process Kenyatta decided to take everything to their province, sort of like you would say, not abara, like into the abara and it started developing from there to the Province and all the central government everything going to his area to his people xxxx. Then the xxxx people had someone called Okingakinga[?] who was our new elder and he also started this resistance, a quiet one, a soft one within the government and this just picked up and that’s all we knew now when we were growing up, we are Luoes and we would never get anything because we are not in the government and for a very long time there were no roads and until now we had no water, there is no electricity in some parts of Luo xxxx, and education has really gone down, so we don’t get, most of it is what I would call semi arid area, it is very dry, I think about fifty forty per cent of it is very dry, I’m not quite sure about the statistics but it is dry, and if we don’t get funding, I believe there is a xxxx something like that when drought comes in or this other flooding but we don’t get that, yes so.

So those kind of things are quite obvious on the day to day life…

It is yes, it is still going on now if you still talk to other people who are in the government they still tell you there is a xxxx and they are not fighting their way back to try to put a foot into the government to get more powers in but the other tribes believe the Luoes are very kind of, very strict people, they are not like the Kukuri tribe which is, which we look at, they are people, we look at them like opportunists, grabbers so to say, but the firsthand, the more they get they put things to themselves but they Luoes naturally are people who want to develop everybody around them. If I have something and I’m a Luo I make sure you are comfortable before me then you won’t give me trouble, what I have around me I can have, I can share, but this other tribe are all for themselves and to my understanding that is what has bought all this differences out of the what sixty nine tribes we have in that country, yes, so basically the war is between Luoes and Kikuyu and right now the Massia and all the other tribes are also coming in, everybody wants a xxxx of their own, same has what has happened for the past forty to fifty years it’s all been Kikuyu, yes.

So you think that now people are starting to realise that they want a fairer share if you like?

Exactly yes.

How does that make you feel?

Right now it makes me feel like we are still far, far away from democracy and transparency, we are not there yet and it might take a longer time to get there and I feel failed by it because every time every year I see people still vote and they are fighting and killing each other because they are voting for what they won’t get, you take somebody in there and you say alright we are taking you in there you fight for our rights but at the end of the day they end up buying big cars xxxx and people are still suffering around there so it kind of pushes me away from politics, I’ve not been very active towards politics for a very long time and simply it’s because of this tribal factor that people have bought into politics yes.

It’s a really fascinating sort of story though isn’t it and it’s always nice to see people fighting for equality so it’s a good thing.

I just wish somebody would come up with a proper forum, sort of what are you doing now and go tribe by tribe and just get their views of why the country has come from and where we are going and what difficulties there are and the obstacles in between politics and the social life is it must be quite massive, and up to date that has not been done. This is the first time I think you are getting the real view of what our politics is like in the xxxx.

If you had to describe the law of politics in one line what do you think it would be, in one sentence? Is it even possible? [Laugh]

Being a Luo that is hard [laugh], because, I want to add one, two or three things. Luo politics would be clean and fair.

It’s a really sort of…

Yes, and for everyone, it can’t be one [laugh] yes.

It’s really interesting. I mentioned to somebody else I interviewed that obviously I done a little bit of research about the community and I noticed that there are quite a lot of, quite prominent Luo people in things like rights, activism and things like that, do you think that’s kind of an extension of the kind of Luo philosophy of the political situation that they have been in that they now feel that they should sort of fight and be rights activists and things like that?

Yes that is very true. This activist has always been around ever since from the time of Kenyatta, and some of them are buried just because of trying to fight for this, the Luo forum, what shall I call it, a xxxx for the Luo people just to lift their heads up and say, “Look we are here”, they have been silenced by the government, the two previous regimes have been so secretive shall I say, and if you speak too much, if you say anything that is going to conflict what the President is saying then you would be taken in for some kind of capital punishment, yes, it was actually treason, there’s a clause that says if you go against what the government is you are taken in for life imprisonment yes. So the Luo people have always been there but they were silent, but now they are coming up with the way the xxxx party has just tried to change things up which is still very hard I believe but yes he was right to tell you that, they are coming up yes.

And if we go back to sort of, I don’t know, traditional sort of practices of the Luo people, I’ve heard quite a lot of teraburu and I was wondering if you had ever experienced that and if you have could you describe it to me?

That’s an interesting [laugh]. I’ve actually been in one, this was just around, the last one was in ninety ninety one an December, we had gone for a funeral, one of my cousin and it coincided with this terrible, terrible xxxx is when an elder person, when a respectable like a VIP person dies you know in our society he has got to be buried, I mean after his burial we have to come with all the cows because people use to come with all their cows to the funeral and just make noise and jump around with their spears like chase away the demons or to try and show that this is not just a normal person. If I die I probably would be buried with about twenty people around me coming to say, “Oh sorry”, yes but if a VIP person died then people would come as far as I would say Scotland walking to London just two or three days walking with their cows, you meet other people with cow on the way and say “Look we are going, so and so is dead”, so it’s just walking with your cows all the way and when they get there all the cows are driven into the home and everybody jumps and people and relatives and yes so that was teraburu.

Could you describe some of the, you mention then obviously the spears and things could you describe the traditional dress that people would have worn or would people of worn more modern clothes when you went?

All the people who could come in with their hide skins, and they don’t have any other clothing on just your hide skin to show that you are going to this funeral and carry the spear and the shield and as soon as they get to the home or the gate of the compound they start running around the compound and start scaring people with the spears, like somebody run to you and shout something like, “xxxx, xxxx,” and say like a xxxx, and some people would saying, it’s chaotic, it’s really, really chaotic, I wish one day if I go home I’ll do one video and bring it to you, it is really, really is chaotic and you wouldn’t know what is going on, you would thing everybody s mad because in the middle of the cows, the cows are confused, your just running in a big herd of animals, and they would take one male, one bull sorry, they get a bull, a big bull that has already been calmed down or castrated, they use to castrate them to make it, to keep their xxxx, so they are not hyper. This bull would be, when things have calmed down when all the people, because people come in at the same time and run around the compound so when things cool down they take this bull and take it into the house where the body is and the bull it just goes into the house, quietly, and they just try to talk to the person, I don’t know what they were saying but I would hear them shouting things, like a prayer, for about five or ten minutes then the bull would come out and I remember seeing them putting some ashes on the back of the bull and green leaves and just like whipping the bull quietly and talking to it nicely and it would walk out again, and that’s it, and after that they get food, probably porridge and maize, in big pots like that because they eat a long way [laugh], and they would feed and then about six o clock or five o clock in the evening they would start their journey back, everybody takes their hat and set back on their walk, yes.

It sounds incredible, it sounds like a real experience.

It was, and then after that, now the women would come with their singing just a xxxx of women with their tambourines and all those things and just sing around the compound and say things, how good this man was in this house here, and when that comes down then later the older people would sit somewhere under a tree and start laying out the strategy of how the body is going to be carried or how the burial is going to go on, depending on if this was a man or a lady who was dead, yes. But it was really, really hectic, it was chaos [laugh], yes.

It sounds like it was a very energetic sort of…

Yes, yes, people come when, when some of them are drunk, some of them are, yes so you can imagine that situation, to be sober, just to walk in. The fascinating thing is that people would come with their cows, not just two or three, fifty, twenty five cows, just get all your herd out of the compound and take them to that home, and then at the end of that they all take them back home nothing is xxxx, and that was it, so that was tereburu for me.

It sounds fantastic.

Yes.

I’d really love to experience that myself on day I think.

I might look for one video somewhere and share that with you one day.

Oh fantastic thank you.

I will make an effort, yes if they still go on {laugh].

Let’s hope so, let’s hope so. You mentioned then that obviously there would be food provided, can you remember any sort of traditional types of food that would have been eaten maybe like, people have mentioned ugali [?] before and things like that.

Yes. The main thing, the type of food I remember then because many people coming, there was maize, just maize being boiled overnight, in a big pot yes and porridge, they make porridge out of millet or out of, what is that called, is it called finger millet, there is millet and then there is another type of grain there that would be done, it’s sort of reddish, they make their porridge out of that so, without sugar anyway, so people would have just that really, maize and porridge and drink and drink and then in the evening they would slaughter a cow or a goat, so basically beef, yes, and ugali, and there is no rice no anything, that was it yes.

Could you describe ugali because obviously some of the people listening to this may not know what it is so I was wondering if maybe you could describe it?

I don’t think there is any other different way of making ugali, there is only one way, it’s basically dried maize and they would dry it in a, I remember seeing my grandmother doing this, they get the maize from the farm, leave it out to dry for like about a week and then it’s stored in, we use to have storage outside, sort of a hut that is just built for dried maize and should go in there and get maize whenever she wanted to cook, and she had a stone behind her house, I don’t know if you have seen that in one of the xxxx, so this stone was like a xxxx, it was a big stone and it’s shaped like this chair so there’s a dip in there and you put your maize here with another sort of that size stone exactly, so you get your maize in here and just grind it, that was our meal. So you grind it and then it becomes soft and use that to cook ugali, so ugali is basically just maize and you boil water xxxx and get your powder in there and stir it until the xxxx becomes sort of mushy and sticky then you let it steam a little bit for about five or six minutes and then take it out, that’s all it is, yes but it is very rich, very rich [laugh] yes.

Brilliant, and do you remember maybe your grandmother or your mother sort of making other sort of traditional dishes that you would have grown up eating sort of regularly or being quite fond of, specialities maybe that your mother or grandmother made?

We use to go, one of my uncles use to go hunting with his mates, a big group of about fifteen or twenty people, like once a month or every six months and I tasted rabbit for the first time [laugh], because they would go hunting for the whole day and come back when in the evening and one day they caught rabbits but my grandmother told me that rabbit is not to be cooked on the same day, it’s hung after taking off the skin and then it’s hung somewhere behind the cooking pot and the steam and all that smoke would go into it for about three weeks, and then after three weeks they would cook that and that was called aliya, that was it, it was very tasty and the first time I had it I saw it when it was already cooked but later when I went behind the kitchen to find out what was cooked, behind the scenes, where that meat was hanged there were maggots in the meat, because it’s shot and had been left there to hang for about, no freezing, no anything, or anything for about like about two three or four weeks, sometimes even a month, and then they would cook it with all those things. I eat it that night it was quite tasty, quite tasty. Had that, had antelope, they killed antelope one day, and is it quail, a little bird, pheasant, pheasant, very nice, very nice.

Sounds like you ate quite well, lovely sounding things.

Well yes I use to be very adventurous when I was young and every time I would go home, I’d make sure I would go home for holiday when there was an action going on, either funeral or there’s hunting going on so you don’t miss out yes so that was it.

So you timed that well.

Yes, yes so that was alright.

So what about things like weddings or other family occasions and things like that was there any other particular traditions that sort of you witnessed through them or…

I missed out, I had a near miss in one of the so called weddings, it was not a wedding. An auntie of one of my relatives was a, was it called kidnapped or something, they use to way lay them. She was way laid just a week before we got there and when we got home it was like, “No you can’t see your auntie anymore”, she was twenty, she was twenty or twenty four, because we were so fond of her because she would cook for us and take us to the river and get water with her, and so when we went home this day we were told, “No, no your auntie is now married she is not going to come back until whenever her husband let’s her come”. And we were told the story of how this happened. She went to the market, she was sent to the market to go and get, what was that, I think she had gone to get this, the ugali flour and come back with, because you take something to the market, sell your stuff, mill it and then come back with the ugali flour or maize. So she went with something, I think millet, I believe it was millet and she was coming back with the ugali flour and this was about six in the evening, it’s quite bright, six in the evening, and these people stopped on her way back, six men and just started whipping her and told her to put it down, put the thing down and lets go, and she was taken into this home and told, “This is your husband from today, leave that bucket down there we will tell someone to take it to your Mum’s house or we send your mum to come and get it and that was it. I was kind of disturbed, by the way this is a true story, I was kind of like how can he do that to this lady and she been so nice, I was moved me and my brother, my brother was actually crying because we felt like we didn’t have any of our mates to mingle about with and that was sad, but she got that whipping and she stayed and that was it, she had kids and now her kids are older people, some of them are in America yes. So that’s how she got married, that’s the only wedding I’ve heard of [laugh].

Was she happy? Later on maybe?

She’s happy now, yes she’s happy, she’s ended up having a co wife, she’s got now second wife in that home so yes we speak she’s okay, she’s fine yes.

I suppose it’s got a happy ending so.

It is a happy ending yes but it comes by very painful means by the way it comes in, yes so that don’t happen anymore, I don’t know if they happen and people are quiet to speak about it but yes people have had a bit of education now, enlightenment about that yes.

Do you think that is less common these days then or do you think it’s not talked about?

I think it’s not talked about but I think it’s still happening. Because I had somebody who was looking after, I’ve got a few cows, I’ve got about six cows and I had somebody who was looking at them and it’s my responsibility to make sure that that man lives at home, he is not from our society or community, he is actually a Ugandan because we get many people from Uganda or Tanzania our neighbours, to come and work in Kenya in the villages, so they come and look after cattle or look after home, like a security man while you are not there, you pay them. What was I paying, I think I was paying about eighty pounds a month, that’s about three or four thousand Kenya shillings [?] yes, and this man decided to run away with one of my cousins from the home, he got this girl and he made her pregnant, they had a child and I told them, “Fine, look alright this has happened, this is not good, you are not suppose to do that to one of my relatives because it gives me a bad name in the society. I’ve bought you here, I trusted you so you have done this. Eventually they just disappeared, they went with xxxx and now I hear they have got kids, they have got three or four kids, she was young she was actually a twelve year old girl, yes so, it still happens but people don’t talk about it and I can’t do anything, I can’t report it because I’m here and nobody listen to me. There is no system to report anything like that so she is there, she didn’t have her parents as well so it is a chain of many things put together, yes.

Sorry it’s quite sort of harrowing story when you think she is twelve years old but you know if she is happy then I suppose…

Yes so, you can imagine for a twelve year old for that to happen to you from the first day it happened and to having a baby and all that the trouble that comes with it and then you end up in another country where you don’t belong with no one, with kids, so I was a little bit concerned about that but that was it. I believe it still happen.

Right.

Yes but quietly.

Somebody else told me that in the Luo community if you want to get married you are suppose to sort of not ask permission so much but consult with the elders of your community first and they kind of have to okay it. Do you have any experience of that?

Just for the heart, what I have seen yes. It’s not really quite that but your parents would like ah investigate around, they would always like you to get married to somebody who they know their background about.

Okay.

Yes, you wouldn’t just turn up and say alright okay now this is mine now. You have to like sort of say, “Alright, I’m in the U.K. now and I’ve meet a yes and she’s ABCD”, and he would go like, “No, where is she from? Where’s the Mum from, where’s the Dad from?” And then he’ll pick up from there, he’ll try and get one of the younger ladies or he’s cousins to come and investigate your home to try and find out what is going on, how are your parents, are they like strict family, well strict to them was are they married not divorcing or no other kind of you know, habits like prostitution. That was a nightmare. So they have to find out what is going on in your background before you come in, yes [laugh].

It’s quite interesting isn’t it to think someone is going to have to be investigated before they can get married really [laugh].

Yes so you could, it’s not a good thing to just turn up and say, “This is it”. and you have to say, right now I have to say okay I’m seeing this one, not seeing I’m getting married, I’m getting married to Felix, and then they look around and try and get some people who are from my area to look at how I was bought up, what’s my life style like, am I a drunkard, was I just playing about and yes, so there was a guide line, you don’t just get married, there still is I think a bit of that but know because of this kind of xxxx people have just decided to carry on yes.

When did you move to the U. K.?

Nineteen ninety nine, yes.

And what made you decide to move to the U. K. in nineteen ninety nine?

I came to the U. K. to study. I came to study in the U. K. for the first time; I went to back to Kenya for a year then came back again and then just decided to work. The second time I came back is because, when I came in the first time, went back and my Mum was not well, so in two thousand she passed away, and my younger brother went to Canada, so that’s it, that’s the end of the xxxx because I don’t have anything to hold onto now, so apart from my land and my xxxx and cousins, so I said I’m better of there, yes so I came here and try and fit in somewhere [laugh].

And what was your first impressions of the U. K. what did you think of it?

The first impressions of the U. K. was a mix of feelings, it was welcoming, it was my first time I was getting a true picture of how white people live, and my perspective back home of white people, we never had this thing of breaking down who the white people are, we couldn’t tell the difference from back then see someone was white we were, “Oh right your British yes”, we didn’t know you had to be Scottish or Irish or these things, so when I came here then I said like, “Where’s Ireland, where am I? Am I in England? And somebody said, when I was filling in an application form I said England and somebody said U. K. And somebody said “What’s going on here”. Then later I found alright there’s Scotland there’s that, yes, and all the xxxx and Wales, yes and that really fascinated me to find out that these people are not what we think back home, I should tell everyone yes, so that was a good picture that was xxxx information for me yes.

And how easy or difficult do you find it to maintain a sort of Luo community here in the U. K.?

It’s hard I think, it’s very difficult to get these people together. I’ve been talking to xxxx about this; one is because their pride, just the fact of being a Luo it’s a very difficult thing to deal with. Everybody wants everything for themselves; you want your stuff you want it very good that I would not keep to that standard. So if I call you to my house I want to make sure you come in and have all the fun and everything you might not have within me or within your reach so you should get them when you come into my house. So I think that has really raised the bar mark so everybody came into the U. K. say so I can live in my own house and live the way I want with my things with my family so why so I have to go and see xxxx. I think that has really stuck into Luo people’s head they really like this fancy life of big screen, I don’t know how many households you have been into [laugh]. If you go for your interviews, I believe they get a leather sofa, a very nice neat kept house, they like living well yes, and working hard by the way, yes. That pride has made it very hard to mingle and they don’t take things very lightly. If Luo people come to visit me, there are some jokes I would not just give around, like the humour that we get here I can’t bring my silly jokes there because they would take it very personal yes because they feel xxxx, now you are in the U. K. you think you can and you never see them again. And it’s just a sense of humour that oh now we are in the U. K. we can speak or free our mind, but they still hold back so much, so I think that has really bought a lot of kind of tensions and it makes it very hard to convince people to get together. So the closest thing that can bring them together is they must have music and some free food and make sure you treat them nice, and maybe free drinks, and then they will come. That is the first thing they will ask you, “Do you have drinks?” If you don’t they might come, they might come, [laugh] so yes we really need to work hard on that yes.

And what about the sort of things like, you know we talked a little bit earlier about influences on the traditions and things like that but things like do you ever sort of get together in this country and, in traditional dress or, I saw a little bit at the party night traditional dancing and things like that, is that quite common or is that quite difficult to…

It is difficult, like I said it’s the pride of the Luo, they don’t just let out everything, people are kind of keeping back what they have unless you insist come dress this way they would not, yes. And our traditional dressing, actually I can’t say we have a traditional dressing apart from if you have an occasion you could have the xxxx reeds, the xxxx reeds for the ladies and the men would have the hide skins that’s what I use to see way back but now all that has gone, we don’t have anything, we don’t have a national dress as Kenyans by the way, yes we don’t.

Sorry it’s in my head that someone rented a grass crown or something which stuck with me, is that something that you might not be familiar with say?

No, no, that’s the hat, yes basically the hat it, use to be made of reeds and only the older people would have it to, just to, like an I.D .then you would know because it’s not a new hat, it’s really old by the way and the older person would put on that yes, it’s not everybody who would have it, I see that a long time ago, but now, without xxxx knowledge people have got that made of different materials yes.

How does that make you feel that kind of you know people the Luo community in this country kind of keep themselves a bit separate?

It’s really bad to be honest, the last function we had we called so many people and they say no we’re coming, we’re coming but we know at the back of their hearts that they are not really coming fully like they are suppose to be coming out. So it wears you down a little bit after putting in so much and at the time it becomes less than what people committed, not nice, not nice, they really need to come out more, yes, we need to start door to door , knocking, getting them up because they are quite…

Picking them up and taking them.

Yes, that one can walk, that one can…

Send a cab for them they would have to come then.

I told Obiero if you , if you are looking for to make this thing work, make sure you get the bus somewhere in London and tell them, “Look if you get off at this station the bus will be there for three hours waiting for people to come in and we will drop you wherever and bring you to xxxx”, then they will come up, and we will drop them when they are ready because they are not people to, because you can’t rush them, you can’t, their pride is just too much yes, yes.

Is there anything else you would like to talk about either about your life or the community or the work that you do before I turn the tape off?

Yes, first the conception of this Luo session forum, there are other people who are also trying to do like I say the completion, everybody is cropping up with their own sort of charity things and for their own goals, I don’t know for whatever so if people could just stick to one goal and be like what our great grandparents use to be before, we only had one union called Luo Union. Luo Union was made with just one aim, to bring the Luos together so that we have something that we can call our self, identify our self with yes, and like I told you that was suppressed by the government and this generation that we are now in has picked that up and we need to get something simplified with just a short name like that, Luo Forum and make it I think free because if you tell them to subscribe they will not yes. They only come in when they have trouble, when somebody has a relative whose staying at home, you see them coming in and saying, “Alright, I’ve got my uncle who is dead so I need help”, then they will come but you can’t just get them in for like an occasion to interview them, it’s hard you have to follow them around, yes so that really, really worries me and it’s not getting any better because our children will just become the same, will be bad that generation yes.

Do you worry about that? Do you worry that the children won’t realise?

Oh yes, oh yes, they won’t, they don’t see the importance of it because, we might still have that, they see it in us, going around and meeting friends, but without this commitment, with xxxx, xxxx here if we don’t get proper help I fear that our kids will not do it. The last time we were there you saw how many kids were there, and all those parents, everybody who was there, getting to about twenty, thirty people, they are all parents with kids here so they don’t give priority to their children to come in and just get this going on yes, so that’s one of the reasons while I’ve been, actually that’s why I came to see xxxx, because we need to speak about that. If we don’t do xxxx on kids then it’s not going to work.

What would you like to see? Would you like to see maybe sort of Luo history classes for young people or things like that so that they can get more involved do you think?

Yes, yes, I’d like to see the young people being identified with Luo, because there is Luoness in them but nobody is going to get that out of them yes, yes. You could go somewhere, for example you could go Kenya and you still want to be identify your roots as British yes, so you have that in you. Whether you live there for a hundred years you still have that in you because you know that but for our people who have come here or migrated here or to America or wherever there’s no, like a general forum that would put the kids up and say look we belong there, yes. We are British yes but this is where we get to know our roots so come in, let’s sit down together, let’s play our Luo music, let’s eat out Luo food, and just get to know each other, get some contact, mingle, speak to people, bring your friends, that's it.

It’s amazing.

It is yes, and you see until very late when President Obama came out and people started thinking, “Oh so he’s from Kenya”, so you break it down, he’s from Luo, so he’s from that area, so you see, but before we didn’t know all these things, I’m sure most of our kids still don’t know the roots of Obama, because there is no xxxx that gives us that access to say he’s from here, he’s from here, he’s American now actually.

Does that make you feel quite proud?

It does yes it does in a way we get to feel there is somebody from our side, yes.

He’s done so well in another country.

Yes, yes we are standing out, and we can yes, everybody can look at his life style now, he came out here, very shaky in the beginning but there he was, so that would be something inspiring the young ones and that is what I would like because if you, many of the people you interview how they came into this country there are many who are under the system, many of them are under the system, they wouldn’t like to speak but there is nothing, you need to go out and tell them there is nothing stopping them from speaking, they’ll thing, “Oh now alright this country is coming to interview me Oh my God, that must be the Home Office behind there”, [laugh] so we need to open this thing up and just make it social, a xxxx social, no payment, I don’t know who is going to fund it?

Yes it’s difficult

Yes.

But this is why doing things like this is quite good because it raises the profile.

Oh yes, oh yes, I’m sure if we stick our heads up and come up with things like xxxx, come up with a Luo day, just to come, don’t make it so Luo, because we have sixty nine tribes from our country remember, so say xxxx and this is being organised by the Luoes so if other tribes would want to come in the same hall, look this is a Kenya hall, so other tribes could come in and say, “Today is a Kikuyu [?] Day but Luoes are still welcome, so we go and eat there food, they eat our food, and then from there we can get one head I believe.

Everyone together properly.

Yes, yes.

Do you think that would help combat tribalism as well?

Yes, yes it is.

Getting all these people together.

It is, it is, we saw that coming up the last few years when we had elections, I don’t know if you saw that, and Luoes are being killed by Kikuyu, Luoes are chasing Kikuyu from our area. We had Kikuyu that lived in Luo land and we knew who were Luoes, like my neighbours I didn’t know they were Kikuyu, they speak Luo and for a very long time they lived there, and shops because they are kind of business minded people and when all this thing came up they were kicked out, they left their shops, all the shops were burned down, looted, just because of this tribal thing, political and tribalism that we picked from our old people, yes. So they were all done and dealt with and nobody sorted out that culture that was left from the Luo, if you understand what I mean, when the government started, that was not dealt with, I have that xxxx, my kids, I will not let them try to find out, I will not help them if it didn’t work out for me so unless we see it working then I can pull one or two kids of mine that is my thinking, I don’t know if you met other people was giving you a different view.

No I think more cohesion and sort of more community is what a lot of people want isn’t it?

Exactly, yes.

And it’s not exclusive to anyone group either it’s a universal thing isn’t it so...

Yes, yes, this is just the tip of the iceberg but actually a big thing what you are doing is a really fantastic job, yes a very big job, I don’t think it has been done anywhere, trying to get this little because they are tribes...

And some communities can be quite secretive as well can’t they so obviously you have to tread quite carefully [laugh].

Yes I know but you ask yourself why, what is there to hide? What is making them stoop so low and not come out and we are in the twenty first century and then you realise it’s the way that things were left and not dealt with and before you know it Christianity came in, there’s education came in, there’s westernisation and all this has cropped up so we didn’t have time to deal with that and that is why the division has, according to my understanding, yes there are just little loose ends there that need to be stitched together, yes.

Well if that is okay with you I think I’ve taken slightly longer than....

No it’s alright I came here for you today and yes so.

The End

Interview Detail

Name of interviewee:

Project: Luo oral history project

Date: 12/2011

Language: English

Venue: Ilford.

Name of interviewer: Claire Days

Length of interview: 0:52:51.

Transcribed by: June Andrews

[TAPE END]

Interview details

2012_esch_UgAs_01

Can you please start by telling me your name?

My name is Gantala Verubi Sudra.

So you spell your last name...

Eh last name, my surname is Sudra, S-U-D-R-A, Sudra.

Sudra and um how old are you Mr Sudra.

I am seventy-eight at the moment.

Seventy-eight, right. And um where did you grow-up, where were you born?

I born in Kakamega in Kenya.

Kakamega?

Kaka...The name of the town was Kakamega.

Kakamega.

In Kenya.

Right, right and um that was in 19...

Eh 1933.

My goodness okay in Kenya so um what was it like growing up in Kenya?

Kenya was good but you know my father was working as a building contractors and um... and furniture making and everything he was getting contract of all the schools and everything in Kenya first and eh after the time he got big job in Madhvani Sugar Works in Uganda so...we all moved from Kenya to Uganda and uh my Father was building the Madhvani Sugar Factory. Factories...porters...houses for the porters, all those porters who was working with Madhvani were all African, Asian, European, all people was there and working and my father was doing erection of the buildings and everything. Even my father build a big bungalow at Madhvani Sugar Works in Mujarni, still it is there uh um and it was happy in...It was not Madhvani Sugar Works, it was Kakira, it’s near Jinja, nearly ten miles away from Jinja.

So how old were you when you moved to Uganda?

From Kenya, about...four to five mon...five years old.

So what was the difference between Kenya and Uganda?

Oh but mostly I spent my, all my childhood in Uganda and I get in school in Kakira. The life even in Kenya was very good, no problem at all but eh it was different in the jobs. Big jobs and moneywise, you know, so good job and moneywise was in Madhvani Factory, big erection, it was a big sugar plant in Kakira.

So what was school like, what schools did you go to?

Oh school was eh very nice in Kakira...I just do my primary in Kakira, that school was very nice, teachers...very nice, all Asian, some Asian teachers was there and some of the African teachers was...at that time and eh was I learning then and then my secondary was been in Jinja, eight mile away, at eight mile away from Kakira, so Madhvani provided free school to...buses to...all children to go to Jinja for study and that's it and I was learning and after, worked in ah...I left my school in 1952.

Right, right.

In 1952 I left my school and uh...my father was...he decided he wanted to do his own workshop and own building works and everything, on his own. So in 1952 we moved to, we moved to...Tororo, from Kakira to Tororo, it is really eighty miles far away from...from Kakira so my father was, he build a, he had a timber yard, was selling timbers and same thing he was making furniture for the schools and building works also in Tororo and I just started, I start with the work with the Uganda Cement works in Tororo.

Sorry Uganda...

Cement works...

Cemet?

Cement, making cement.

Cement sorry, right.

Yes cement, they were making uh cement, they was making corrugated eh asbestos sheets, everything there and I work with them and uh good salary and they give the houses and every free of charge house and everything and good salary and uh after the time, I work sometime there and nearly six to seven years in... work in Cement Works then I changed my job to another XXXX firm, they was making fertiliser, they was making fertilisers and uh...it was a Tororo Industrial Chemical and Fertiliser, the name of the firm was that so I worked there...and after the time I was maintenance foreman and African was working with us and everything was very good, no problem at all but 1973, 1973 Mr Idi Amin, Prime Minister of Uganda, kick off all British Citizen but uh they gave me special pass so I can stay in Uganda and myself, my wife, my father and....they had to leave the country so I say to my father ‘I’m going to UK to leave my father and mother and everybody there and then I’m coming back’ but situation in 1972, end of 1972 October you know, everywhere soldiers and situation was no good so killing and this and that and I...I left the Uganda on 21^st no...yeah 21^st October 1972 we came to Britain as a refugees with one suitcase I had two, my brother-in-law’s, my father’s workshop, everything we left, we come with one suitcase her and British Government help us alot so they took us to [interviewee speaks to wife] near Somerset there was a big camp so we’d been to the camp and then we...came down here and...then again I rent a house and then I started work with Croda Premier Oil Limited in Britain here so I worked with them and I build where I was. I came with one suitcase, I left my own money, everything because money and everything was seized up there, you can’t take the money out of the bank, they left...per family, Idi Amin allowed fifty pound only and...I had the money but nothing, we came with suitcase. I had my three children, one daughter and two son, the youngest son was one and a half year old when we come to this country and now everybody’s happy, my children got educated here and um they are in Los Angeles now, my eldest son and my daughter they are in Los Angeles. She is working with sound system, building the speakers and everything; she’s a director there now and eh my son, eldest son, he is a computer programmer, before he was here; he got a good offer so he moved from here to there five years ago.

That's wonderful. Where was your um your father from?

My father from India.

Where abouts?

India Porbandar. He was from Porbandar. He went to East Africa I think in 1927 or 1927 or ’26 I think, I can’t remember at the moment, but he...he was...nearly fourteen years old when he came to Kenya and eh he was working with one of his uncle who was a carpenter and he was a contractor at the XXXX there and he joined him and he worked there. First he was employed with his uncle and after the time he done his own job and everything.

So what was it like working the cement factory?

Oh, lonely, I was enjoying it. [Interviewee laughs] I was a cementer, senior cement kiln burner, making XXXX which is eh making, first of all when I started a job I worked with the quarry, big quarry where the blasters, all rocks and everything and loading the rocks onto the trucks, taking to the cement works and from the river they was taking clay and uh loading clay and taking to the cement works and everything like that.

What was Uganda like then because it was still under; well it was still under British rule wasn’t it?

Yeah it was British rules, it was very nice, no problem at all, no problem, no problem at all.

So you had quite a good life there.

I had a good life there and I retired life here now I worked there with Croda Premier Oil Limited and I’m retired now.

So when Idi Amin came to power um did you know that he was going um expel people and...?

Yeah, yeah, yeah Idi Amin was when he came to in power. I’m telling you truth even in... at that time in Uganda, if you were me and you taking, talking something about Idi Amin, next morning you won’t find me or you, sometime won't find you, that was the cruelty everything like that in Uganda.

So people disappeared.

People was disappeared and you don’t where they go. He go somewhere, his own people, his own people and even you know he killed his son-in-law, his daughter-in-law and....

Yeah, how long were you given notice to leave Uganda?

Three months, ninety days. Within ninety days you had to kick off, go away from the Uganda War. He was building the big...big eh open XXXX to put all the refugees in there.

So at that point you just had to go.

Yeah, yeah.

So you came to the UK because you had a passport or...

I had a British citizen’s passport myself, even my father had a British Citizen passport so...because we were British citizens and therefore we cared to come to here, otherwise we had to go India, if I had an India passport.

So what was it like when you first arrived in the UK?

Oh... here you know first of all I’m telling you I was...when I came to...it was cold and weather-wise because Uganda weather is very nice, warm and nice and cool and everything. In my life all that I didn’t where a sweaters or anything but here first of all I had to wear the sweater and all coat and everything and another thing over there...come from XXXX coming to pick me up from the house, taking me to the firm, bringing me twelve o’clock for lunch then in the evening...bringing me back by car. Life was luxury, very luxury life was there.

So you had a chauffeur in Uganda.

Yeah, a driver, drive to cars and...

And take you home.

In company’s car.

What was your house like in Uganda?

Oh house was very nice, you know, four bed room house.

And that was provided by the company?

Yeah.

Wow and all that you had to leave behind.

Uh um.

So when you first came to the UK, you went to sorry you went to Sussex, was it Sussex?

We went near Skegness so what is...Lincolnshire, we went to Lincolnshire. We arrived Heathrow Airport and after the time they took us to the Lincolnshire and I live nearly one month in the there in camp just to find out what to do now and...from there we was, there was trying to get a job and everything so at the moment then my brother was living next street, he was living in next street here, India Road.

Right, did he come over at the same time?

No, no, no, he came before me, two years I think, before me.

And what did he do?

He was a... he was a electrical engineer, electrical engineer he was,

Right, right.

So he was living and then I ask him, I got some places to go and then he said ‘no you better come and live with me here’ so I lived nearly four months with him then I got a job, rent a house and after the time, bought a house, when got money, mortgage and everything and the job was good so this was a life...in Britain.

Yeah so was it difficult getting a job when you arrived?

No, no it was...at that time it was not difficult, even my wife is not educated, she can’t speak too much English or anything but she got a job, we both got a job.

What did your wife do?

She worked with the XXXX where there was making upholstery, upholstering metro cars and everything, she joined there, she worked other there.

Was that machining?

Machining, machine operator.

So it was quite easy, so can you describe your job, when you first started in...what was the company again sorry?

Croda Premier Oil Limited in Barking, they was making uh...the cooking oil and lard oil and corn oil, all vegetarian, vegetable oil they was making and lard oil even and eh they was making...they had a another branch in the Barking where they was making varnish, varnish for the painting you know and paint, they was in, in Barking, there was two firms that was there.

And what did you do there, what was your job?

My job was a maintenance foreman as well as maintaining the pumps, oil pumps, water pumps, oh boiler, big boiler, you know, steel boiler, repairing anything wrong with it, I had to repair it and that's it.

And how long did you work there?

Um I worked nearly eight, nine years there.

Did you learn English when you started or did you speak English...?

No I speak English, when I was in Uganda I just...I know Swahili, Ugandan language and Guajarati, I am an Guajarati Hindu and we was, not too much, but I know I can speak and I can make someone understand because I was a foreman in the firm. So I had three English guy feature with me and two electrician. I had to manage all the jobs and I was sitting in the office and they rung me such and such a thing is not working so I’d had to send my electrician there.

So really your job was really more of an engineering job?

Yeah.

So that’s what you trained as, an engineer?

Yeah.

And that was in Uganda?

Yeah.

So how long was your training in Uganda as an engineer?

It was practical, it was a practical job and practical things you know because here in London is like one man, one job, London, in London is one man, one job. In East Africa it wasn’t one man, one job, you had to do all the jobs, whatever come in to do, motor mechanic, electrician and carpentry, whatever and even clean the workshop, you know [interviewee laughs]. Not one job here you can say, go and...go and sweep the sink, he say ‘it is not my job, its cleaner’s job, cleaner will come and do the job’ but over there you are a cleaner, you are a maintenance, you are whatever, you are everything.

You just had to get on... Were the hours alot longer in Uganda?

No eight hours, eight hours.

So you basically trained on the job.

Mm.

Right and here it was very different was it then so...?

Bit hard was here, you know, a little bit hard but I know the jobs and everything so...they give me here first job as a maintenance fitter just to...fitter was...I had to carry the tools for the fitters but after the time when the factory management and foremans and everybody they see my jobs they said...‘he knows everything’ and he gave me the job.

Right, right.

Because I first of all, I just started the job there you know, what job I’m getting I don’t care because I want job, I want some money because my kids are here and I need a job therefore I decided maintenance fitters, just to carry all tools for him and then after the time, maintenance fitter, maintenance foreman.

And what were your colleges like working with? Were they friendly was it a...?

They was friendly.

So there was no racism?

No at that time. I luckily because it’s depending...depending how you’re talking, how your appearing, if you...you are a good, everyone is good but you behave like a...then nothing.

Were you part of the union or anything....?

Yes I was with union. Still I am in union, they are sending me cards and everything.

What union were you were a member of, what union, the T&G?

And G.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did they help at all with...?

Oh yeah, yeah with...they help because even you know first of all here when we come here to join the union also if you got a job or anything and you didn’t join the union then...big problem. You had to join the union so we joined the union, I joined the union.

In the company you worked in Barking, we’re there alot of Asian Ugandans?

No, two. Myself and there was another guy. There was two Asian, four Europeans, machine operators and everything all Europeans, at that time no there's wasn’t any coloured guy, only myself and another guy that's it.

And were they friendly?

Yeah friendly, no problem.

So life was obviously very, very different from Uganda.

Mmh.

So how long did you work there, was it ten years?

Mmh.

Right, right and what did you do after that?

After that I’m just retiring because totally knee both replace myself and it was difficult to me for walking and everything and just...

Well your job was very physical wasn’t it?

Mmh.

You were doing alot so it must of been a difficult to manoeuvre. So how different would you the UK is to Uganda?

Mmh?

How different is the UK to Uganda?

UK to Uganda is...I say...Uganda weather-wise and everything was okay, job-wise even. If you want to job or anything, it’s up to you...even in Britain also...it’s a good thing but now there...I hear young people sitting at home, no jobs so many people...XXXX and before when we came to UK here, everywhere in Dagenham, Barking, so many industries was there, even if Ilford, in here, Gerbils farm was just one mile away from here, my wife was going there because she was working but now there is no industry here at all, all industry has been gone, even my industry where which I was working with Corona Premium Oil Limited, they moved to Yorkshire.

When did they move?

Oh they moved nearly fi...four to five years now.

Do you keep in touch with anybody who used to work there?

No I got...you know they’re sending me...that magazine of them, every year. [Interviewer speaks to wife] I work with his firm. It’s internet, its everywhere.

Yeah. Were they a good firm to work?

Yeah. [Interviewee laughs] They making costumes, they make everything.

So it’s still growing isn’t it?

Yeah, it’s still growing.

So when you came over did Ugandan Asians kind of stick together because there was so many who entered the country?

Yeah but there was so many in XXXX in Lincolnshire, very big camp, we was there and af6ter a time people got job there and people tried to move and move and even the British Government says the people came from Uganda is hard worker.

Yeah.

They told themselves...even they say even because even some people are not thinking to buy house. They will live on the rent and everything like that but all people came from Uganda or anywhere, Kenya, buy a house.

Yeah, yeah. Your father came over as well, what did he do when he came?

No my father was just retired, he was old-aged you know. He didn’t earn anything here. He...my father and my mother, they was retired.

That must of been very hard for them.

Because I was just...they was my dependants.

So you had three children and your parents.

Yeah.

That's quite a responsibility.

It is. I work...I start six o’clock in the morning from here, come at four five because at that time I was doing so much overtimes, I was doing overtime there to...

Overtime to pay.

Yeah and then the firm in the Croda is not there in Barking there because at that time the building erection was going to...and everything like that. It was a brand new firm, brand new plant over there.

Did you have to learn how to do things differently, were there different equipment from Kenya and from Uganda and so on?

Yeah the equipment is like that. The equipment is coming, even the pumps or anything coming is coming with the drawings and everything and you have to understand the drawing of it and another thing is you have to use your own brain.

Yeah, so you did alot pf overtime, you started at six. What time did you finish?

Six to six, twelve hours doing when I started but after that time and I got a bit better then I just.... and I was...I was on-call out even. The call-out, they called me if something been wrong at night, I had to go to the job but then again I’m doing that job.

So basically your job was if anything broke down, you would mend it.

Umm.

That must of been such a responsibility.

Umm because if I don’t go quick, they’ll use so much production of oil.

How many people did the company employ? Do you know?

Oh the company was about forty people at the moment, at that time, and after the time uh there was another firm they made XXXX. All XXXX and packing and everything was there.

Were there any accidents at work or was it dangerous?

No, no.

No because health and safety wasn’t that great then was it?

No.

Not as good as it is now.

No.

No. Did you ever go out on strike or...?

No, no strike.

So it was a good employer?

Good employer and we had a meeting every month, end of the month we had a meeting thinking in next month what we want to do, what is this, any problem with anyone.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So would you say the Ugandan Asians stayed together as a community, were you still in touch with everybody you were in Uganda with?

When I left no...Uganda when I was working with them I was alright but after the time I...no connection with anyone there now.

Yeah. It must have been very difficult so you had to completely start again didn’t you?

Umm.

So what help did the British Government give you?

Uh British Government give us you know when we come to this and...nearly one month we live in the camp there and they provided clothes and everything, clothes and then the child benefits and everything started so...that’s it.

Yeah.

Job Centre, I have been two, three, four job centres and then we got the job at this firm and started work, that’s it.

Did you find it difficult to find home or accommodation when you came over? Was it difficult to rent a house or...?

Yeah it was difficult at that time, there wasn’t so many house empty you know but uh luckily I found a...it was difficult at that time.

We’re people welcoming?

Yeah.

Yeah. Gosh. Have you ever been back to Uganda?

No because I live anywhere, I’ve seen very bad experience of soldiers and all that you know and uh I’m...once you got something, afraid you know, so... I want to go back, my son says in September we might go back there to have a, just to have a holiday, going for one week there and coming back like that because you know I’m talking about 1973...’78, 1978 one of my friend he had an automobile garage in Jinja and uh he just thinking to go there and want to get it to do the job again over there but even in the hotel and African guys knows there's the owner of the garage is come down here now. They’ve been in the hotel in XXXX so since that time [interviewee laughs] I says it’s no good, even if you’ve got your own property.

Did you have your property in Uganda?

I owned property but I didn’t got it yet, nothing, no because I write letter and letter and letters and this and that.

They just confiscated everything did they?

Yeah...even the money I had 80 000...80 000 Ugandan shillings in the bank, gone.

There was no way of getting the money out of the country at all? No.

No.

Must of been a very difficult time...Well he’s no longer there is he Idi Amin.

[Interviewee laughs]

Gosh. That's...yeah. So during that time...was it as soon as he came to power people were frightened?

Umm.

Yeah, gosh. Is there anymore you’d like to say?

Uh that’s it nothing, thank you for coming.

Thank you. That was really, really interesting.

The End

Transcript not to be used without copyright

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Gantala Verubi Sudra

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: 27/01/2012

Language: English

Venue:

Name of interviewer: Judith Garfield

Length of interview: 35:21

Transcribed by: Joel Crowley

Archive Ref: 2012_esch_UgAs_01

Interview details

2012_esch_UgAs_02

Ok, can you just start by telling me erm, what you had for breakfast? Just so that I can do a sound test.

This Morning?

Yeap

This morning I had breakfast you know bread and butter. And tea.

Ok. That’s all ready to go. Can you start by telling me your name for the tape?

My name is Babulal Vri Sudra, S-U-D-R-A.

And do you mind telling me how old you are Mr Sudra?

Erm, eighty year old.

So you were born in nineteen…

Nineteen thirty one.

Erm and where were you born Mr Sudra?

I was born in in Kisew town called Kisew in Kenya.

And where were you parents from?

My parents from, orginal from India. My father came in the east Africa Kenya you know. In nineteen erm, twenty one.

And why did he go to Kenya? Do you know?

Well my father came, went to the Kenya because you know his err, relatives live there you know. So he just came there and join with them and my father was a carpenter so the other family was a carpenter contractor. So he joined them at Kisew Kenya.

And did he come from Gujarat?

Yeah from Gujarat.

So do you have still have family in Gujarat?

Yeah my grand, grand parent were there in err in India you know Gujarat.

So when you were born your was working for, in Kenya, for a company or?

Err there is a company there you know, yeah, its called you know, Narchari Lachman and brothers.

Right, right, so growing up in Kenya, did you grow in Kenya?

Yeah I grow Kenya, educated in Kenya.

So what was it like in school?

Well very nice you know, school was very nice you know, Kisew High School it was called you know. I just you know, err, went up to the form one, then it was called form, form one, two and three metric you know, at that time you know. So I went to the form one, and then my father was, then came building contractor in there you know himself, and then you know one of the merchant from Uganda, its called Mulgiba madwani he wanted to build his bungalow there in Uganda, a Kakira sugar factory. He came there and asked my father can you came to Uganda and build my bungalow? My father says I will, because I am a contractor, so I just I’ll build wherever you, so my father went to Uganda. I was born there in Kisew in nine teen thirty one. And my father went to Uganda in nineteen err thirty eight.

So did you go with him to Uganda?

No I didn’t go to him because there was no school at that time where we went you know. So I was left with my Uncle there in Kisew in Kenya.

So the rest of your family went to Uganda?

Yeah, rest of my family went to Uganda you know, at that time, and I was studying at Kisew High School you know.

Right erm at the time the British were still in….

Oh yeah the British were ruling at that time you know.

So what was it like under British rule?

Very nice under British rule, you know, very nice. Everything was clear you know, where ever you walk in the office if you want to do the job, anything for the, your income tax or whatever you know, I just you know I didn’t pay income tax but I was still knowing everything you know. And you can walk straight away and everything, everybody can help. Yeah.

What erm, you were at school till what age? In Kisew

Err Kisewer it was err in, from nineteen… I left Kisewmu at the age of err… twenty one.

So you err, so you did all of your education in Kisewmu?

Kisewmu yeah, Kenya yeah.

So what did you train as? In Kisewmu?

Err I was then you know I just join my father, I went to Uganda, Kakira and joined my father and work with Mulgipar Madwani as a apprentice electrician.

So how long were you an apprentice for?

Err for three years.

So was there a big difference between Kenya and Uganda at the time?

Erm no. It wasn’t. It wasn’t different between Kenya and Uganda. Because you’ve got still British ruling you know at that time. So it was XXXX at least Africa, Kenya, Uganda, Tanganyika, it was called Tanganiycayan, know it’s called Tanzania. So it was under the British rule, you know everything was exactly the same there is nothing difference you know.

So was, was, was, Kenya was no very, was not very different from Uganda.

Wha, What, what, was it like in err, in Uganda?

Very nice, weather was you know beautiful, throughout the year you know the rain in June July you know and erm, little bit more heat in June July. Throughout the year, very nice, I ‘ve been to nearly you see, after that I went to nearly all of the world, you know everywhere. And I can’t find the weather like Uganda, anywhere. You know, yeah.

So what were the people like? What was it like working in Uganda?

People, you see it was still British rule and everywhere in the big factories, and everywhere in the British where there you know. Either you know, manager, or engineer, or something like that you know. They are the head, you know, and working under them, it was very nice.

So how did you live in, in Uganda? Did your homes and stuff.

Err well, Uganda I was err you know living with my father there, you know, in Kakira, you know. And I left, I done my you know the apprentice you know in the three years, in the fourth year I was looking for a better job somewhere you know. So I find you know a jobs going on in Torroro Uganda in a cement factory, there was a new cement factory building there. So I applied there and there they called me for the test you know, so I went there and give my own test and they said they were happy and said when can they join us. I say I have to give one month notice where I am working, so after one month I can join them. So I went back to Kakira, and they companies director called me. He said why you left the Kakira and why want to go to Torroro. I said that there is a new factory and a new job and they are offering me good money. For the salary. He say’s how much? I say they are going to give me thousand shilling a month. And you are giving me five hundred a month. It’s a double salary. So I’m going there, they said, no, you can’t go, I’ll give the same salary and I give you the XXXX quarter. I said I already signed a contract. Because I can’t break my contract. So I went and my father said we don’t want to live without you here alone. So they joined me also, they came to Torroro also. [Coughs] I joined them they joined me again there and we’re living and my father start his carpenter timber yard, selling timber and furniture. And he started there you know and he bought a land there in Torroro and he build his workshop there. And I was working with err Uganda cement industry there you know. I worked there to about err, nineteen err, about five years you know. Five years I worked there, from nineteen forty nine to fifty two something, then I get married nineteen fifteen two over there and my beautiful wife [cough] and err, three son and one daughter.

Was your wife born in err, Uganda or in Kenya?

Err, my wife was born in Uganda, in Uganda, yeah, yeah.

Was it arranged marriage?

Err, yeah it was, my grandfather just you know done the settlement of you know arrange marriage, my grandfather, he done that you know. And erm I was happy.

So was the first time you met your wife on your wedding day?

Yeah, no I meet her before that, I meet about five, six times before that you know. Yeah, I met in, I married her in nineteen fifty two, fifty three, yeah.

And at that time you were working at?

At Torroro.

Torroro, so what was it like working in Torroro? In the cement factoy?

Well it was a little bit dusty you know. But err, otherwise fine you know.

And you were an electrician there?

Electrician there you know I was a senior electrician there. There was another, about four electrician under me there you know. I was senior electrician.

So yeah, so did you train anybody? In…

Yeah there was a one err, youngster you know Mr Wadair you know he says I want to be a electrician you know, so I asked my foreman I said look he knows a little bit of you know electrician job but not much, so he want to join here, I’ll train him. And he say ok. Bring him here. He took the interview and then he said ok you train him, he was under me and I train him as a electrician you know. And he passed the apprenticeship you know.

So what were the conditions like in the, in the factory?

Well condition was not bad, you know. There was you know [cough] three groups, top group, all the Europeans, second group Asian, third group African. It was like that.

So did any of the groups mix?

Oh yeah, they have to work, altogether, there working all together.

Did people get a different rate of pay? If you….

Oh yes, definite. Yeah, European get top rate, and their working is tough, the Asian, their working under them and the black people you know Africans, they are working under these people you know, Asian.

Was there a Union or anything like that?

Erm, no. A that time there was no union in the factory.

Were the, were the, ones at the bottom, the Africans treated badly?

Erm, little bit not much. But err they are all happy one you know. Because they are you know they don’t mind work you know, so we have to train them and to join us, yeah. They, they are called labour.

Yeah, labours.

Labour job.

So was it, was it a large factory?

Oh yes about, err, three hundred people working there, yeah. Three hundred people working there.

And what was it like actually living in Uganda? Because it was…;

Nice, not bad, under the British rule.

Was it really obvious that the British were there?

Yeah.

Did they have all the big hotels? And…

Oh yeah, big hotel and they had the, you know, the, all the European XXXX living in one area, they are called European Town. And the Asian they have all the shops you know. In the town. There was no African shop at all at that time while I was there. No they are just you know working in the house or working in the hotel like that.

So all the Asians had the shops?

Oh most of, all the Asians have shops or they had a business you know, any other business. Iron mongers, timer yard, there selling everything. Yeah.

Was it a close community?

Oh yes very close community.

So you all kindda knew everybody?

Yeah, everybody. Most of them we know. Were there lots of celebrations or?

Oh celebration was Divali celebration. You know.

What was Divali like there?

Divali, Fantastic. Fantastic, like Christmas here you know. Yeah. In this country we celebrate Divali, we celebrate Christmas, why we celebrate Christmas also? Because of the children. They goes to school. And there, they talk each other children there and say what did you get for Christmas? And they say oh we didn’t get but we did get something at Divali. Oh…..we got a Christmas, then they come and say daddy I didn’t get anything from the Christmas, they go to Christmas and we we just celebrate Christmas also, and we celebrate more Christmas then divali here

Yeap yeap, but there it was just divali wasit?

Yeap. Divali

So can you can you just describe divali for me in Uganda?

Well, Divalis is a festival celebration and all the families get together you know and then you know the eat, dance everything and they fireworks..my god! In the town you can see them firework at the road you know full of you know fire you know papers you know there was no restriction at at that time, that you have stoop firing fireworks at ten o clock or eleven, throu through out the night you know

Sounds wonderful

Yeah

So how, while you worked in the cement factor, wha- what did you do?

My job was you know, was err cement factory err electrican you know my job was you know just to give a job to everybody all the electrician and say, you have to go to, if anything stop you know to go and restart again that sort of job you know, we don’t want to stop in production

Yeah well you lose money don’t you?

Yeah…that’s right

So what did you do after the cement factory?

Well…after cement factory you know we go home, you know and the union with the family is sit down, talk to them and what they done, learn in the school you know all this and then erm, and just enjoy with them you know and I left the cement factory in err about nineteen …fifty…six fifty fif- I think the fifty five or fifty six and I joined the another factory started the err zeh- production of fertilizer…it called you know sucoloh mines, they were the you know, starting doing the job, experimental how to make a fertilizer from, from the soil there very rich soil in the dorroro very rich soil, and there a lot of iron in that soil and they separate their iron from the soil and eh, what is the left residue is they make fertilizer from there you know, sup single super fertilizer they’re called you know, and we are supplying these to Kenya, ug, Tanzania, Uganda everywhere from there I joined with them you know..yeah

So that must’ve been very busy working there?

Very busy work you know, and err I was enjoying my work

So what was your house like?

Pardon

What was your house like?

House?

Yeah, your home

You see later on I was living you know with my father at that time you know so after three years the director asked me , do you want to live with European quarter where the Europeans there? He says you are in a staff, I was in staff my salar- salary was just like European, I was on top with that, so he says we gotta house for you in European town…I thought I say well I dunoo, I was living by father you know and we are the older time all their children there all grown up married they with the father you know, with one family you know and I ask my father I say look this peep, er my director offer me house and err my father said no you can’t go. I say well this is you know, opportunity….to go and with live with European with them you know…he don’t like it, but I just went there you know, and after whole, he also came and say where is very nice house good house you know very nice, and the people were all nice you know and the company…supplied, er gave me you know house servant they gave me ayah for looking daughter and one you know Gardner to do the gardener there was forty five different type of a flower growing in my garden soo I was very happy, and lucky.

Was it a big house?

Very big house…yeah very big house, and it was in a nice road you know, it was called masabah road and er there we live in you know and then err in nineteen seven seventy director came again and asked me do you want to move to London?,,,,ohhhh I said I dunno,I said think about it let me know, I just went to see my father and I said look dad they asked me to go to London there’s a job for me, he said no……you don’t want to go to London you go to India if you want to go, I said no no no there is in India there is no job for me I say, to look for it and its very hard in India at that time very hard, sooo director came again and asked me so what do you think, I said okay. He said start packing your things…so I came int his country nineteen seventy in march fourth march nineteen seventy

What was it like when you arrived in this country?

Woah, very hard, very hard…I came here I hire a two rooms in forest gate and then I went after three days I settled there and I went to see the err….the call you know the head office of the ICI, you know the ICI big company here, director told me he gave me the letter, he say go and see them you know, that will job for you, and errr….i say I went there in and I said I’m coming from torr-Uganda, he say I know, I say where shall I go and work for?..he say you have to go to Liverpool call run con by there you know ICI big factory there, there’s a job for you, I said I don’t wanna go Liverpool, give me a job here in London I don’t want to go there Liverpool, he says sorry, he says Sudra there is no job here we don’t have any factory here, we have nothing…I said I will think about it, so all my good came in by sea, company paid everything you know and I don’t have anywhere to put it because I rented two rooms you know so I just out in the storage and err after six months they call me again, the head office in town city in London, they say what you decide? I say I don’t want to go London, I don’t want to go Liverpool I say I want to stay in er London you know he say he can’t poy pay you more any salary from now on because they are paying for six months here.

And you weren’t working?

Not working, we’re looking for a job, he say we already given you six months’ salary so we can’t pay you anymore you have to resign

And they had actually invited you to London?

Yeah….yeah

For no job

Nn, there is a job but it’s in Liverpool

Liverpool [they say Liverpool at the same time]

Not in london here….so I say what fine..then I [clears his throat] I was looking you know for a job for six months time you know everywhere I just go and see and the people here you know they say have you got experience of this country, I say I just came from Uganda, east Africa how could I have experience, you gimme a job, if I don’t do it job then you can tell me. No you haven’t got experience of this country here, my god I say what is it, I went about three or four factories here you know and they say have you got experience of this country, I say everywhere I go they’re asking me this question you see, that’s a really stupid I say, how could I get experience you know without working here. I, then I just fight you know, I challenge I went to one company and I challenge them and said you gimme work, and if I don’t do the work you tell me then! They say are you sure, I say yes, they gave me a job I dunnit, and they say ohh you dunnit I say yes I told you, they say okay, when can you start to work and I start work at the carpenter road in a Stratford.

Where did you work there?

You know there was a animal fish factory they were doing they were doing a fish meal,

Yeah, yeah what was it called?

It…I got somewhere you know.

Coz there was lots of factories on Carpenters road.

There was lot of factory but this were doing the you know fish meal you know, yeah [going through papers] I got somewhere you the letter you know the factories, I il show you factory later on…and I started working you know, but the job was nice you know, everything was fine but only thing was very smelly, very smelly [both interviewee and interviewer laughs, interviewer says yeah] when I come home my children say oh dad your smell, you wana bath you know, I left my, my you know orol and my clothes everything I left over there and put I had a shower once there in the factory and then changed the clothes, you know when I come home children say daddy you are smelling, I worked there for six month [sniffs] then I I start working with Philips at Tottenham high road, the Philips there is only about seven offices only offices and their selling you TV and everything over there you know at Tottenham court road there you know, so I went to give my interview there and they say okay, fine you start here, because they didn’t ask me for my experience you know this country because I was working here about six month, I started work you know say about one year there, one or two year, then there was, my nephew came from Uganda there and he says uncle I want a job you know, then I went to the job centre there in Stratford, and I says there is job at ford motor company Dagenham [clears throat] and ehh I say okay my nephew I filled the form and everything if they what work does he know, I say he don’t know anything, and he started there you know as a l press operator or something like that you know and that then they that fellow said don’t you want a job, I say I’m a electrical engineer sir electricians, well yes ford want some electrician also, he say fill this form, I filled it and everything, after a week there was letter come, come and join us…ohh I say I have to give notice there you know, to Philips, I get notice there you know for one month you know then I started with Ford Dagenham as a electrician there you know maintenance electrician you know, and I worked there worked there you know, nice job, people nice, salary was nice, best salary will pay at that time with ford motor company, and I was on a top graded e graded call a b c d e

So how long were you at ford for?

Erm until I retired, I retired in a nineteen…because my health, my health didn’t was good you know shift work I was doing you know, it doesn’t shoot me too much, shift work, you see it’s a itsa funny seven to three, three to eleven, eleven to seven, so in nineteen eighty two I retired as health problem you know and then you my son you know, one son was working for, the older son was working as a as a electronic engineer the it was called at that time you the lea st?

Lay st

Lay st, big factory placy

Placy Placy yeah right yeah course

He started working there and then the number two son he says if in his education he says I want to go into business, my god I say, then I found a business you know err post office , off licence grocery and all this selling you know everything at Clacton on sea, I took him there and we just went round then and said okay fine, I make a deal you know fifty thousand pound, I’m gonna do bank manager, and I said look I want sixty thousand pound [slams hand on book] he said what, I said I’m going your business, he says, at that time you know the bank manager was everybody was I know the bank manager because of my account was there my account was there you know for in a Barclays bank Tororo also it was transferred here so he knows there you know so, about forty years of my banking years you know you know he says ok mr Sudra, but-eh how you going to pay, at that ninety seventy two I bought this house, and err he says err what you going to put down, I say I got house, he say bring the lease to me, now I put the lease and he gave sixty thousand pound on that, and err my son started the business there you know, working there, and err good business everything was fine, he expanded again over there, and eh my third son you know he didn’t go to school much here you know he said, I say okay go and join your brother on Clacton on sea, he joined there you know, working there you know…and then I was retired I was just going there and just going round and then I just started working there a voluntrator here you know on Albert road, no at Methodist church, there was a store, the was a small hall at bottom, top, b big hall is on the top and to another hall there, the people came and asked me says, why can we start something you know for Gujarati people and they meet older people you know, senior citizen, and we started there you know, and eh it was coming better and better everybody’s joining, and then we moved to the labour hall area, you know there was a church here now Gurudwara there was a labour hall there I know my gap you know so I ask him, soon we want place because that was going under the cellar there you know, it was dark there and older dodnt go there and says I want some good place, he says why don’t you hire our hall, and we hire that you know , and we started going there, and then again they want, they sold the hall you know, and then we moved to the Albert road you know thee s you know what is called you know the church…..what is the name of them you know…

Don’t know

Uh positi…uh you know thee, Albert road you know, where there is a mo- mosque now, and next to the mosque was this side, there’s a hall, church hall we hire there and then, then again it was small then we moved to the again the Methodist church, we go all up there, and since then I was there you know

And chair of it

Yeah, no there was another group who started there you know

Right

And then we just merged together and I was a chairman, fourth chairman there you know

So working at fords, did did you come across any racism or?

Pardon

Eh Working at fords, was there any racism, did you I er u um within the work you know within your work did come across any coz you there was a lot of white people worked at ford

Oh yes a lot of white people, there was all not white all African black, everybody was working, Asian everybody was working there you know

So did you come across any racism or any any

Rashisism, no not much there was little bit, but not much no no no at that time I dint see anything there

Where you part of the union at fords

I joined the union yeah, what happened you know, once I joined the the ford motor company Dagenham, and after one week they went on a strike, they went on a strike, I can’t work I don’t have money even, but it was just one week I work and they went on a strike, and I said well how could you know I survive…my wife she went to work in you know as a machinist and she was working she was earning say about six pound a week, we can’t live on that

Not with four children

Yeah, not with four children, it very difficult but-the some of my relative was good you know they can help you know, then again the union settled down everything we started working again, and then were it was fine, fine you know

Yeah...was the job harder at fords

Urmmmmmmm No, I know the job you know, you see thee the four main he was good also he when his know that I was called bob there you know

Bob?

Bob because I say my name is babulal they say babu babu bob, I say ok call me bob, so they called me bob, when foreman knows the bob is on the floor that’ll no problem, you see what happening, everybody working onit, on a line you know, if that line stops, there are about fifty sixty people working on the line you know, and they sit on down their arse you know and the foreman come, the general foreman, engineer come if the line doesn’t start in ten minutes we’re loosing the production, so we I have to start the line you, whatever it is within ten minutes time

That must’ve been so pressurising

Oh yeah very pressurise very pressurise job, once it everything working no no problem, fine

You can sit back and relax

Yeah, that’s right yeah

So I mean you came over before Idi Amin didn’t you

Oh before the Idi Amin chucked everybody out, I came before that yeah my father and everybody came after me when Idi Amin chuck everybody out, my father got a business there you know and er he has to live, my father and my brother, my younger brother and his family all, they came here in nineteen seventy two when Amin chuckn everybody out

When you left did you see the start of Amin, he came to power in oh…

Amin came power in you you know uhh when bhoto wasa president and he went to Singapore-reh meeting somewhere you know, and after that he took over, he was the military chief Amin.

So did you see the changes when you were in Uganda of his power?

Uhh no uh I yeah, no I didn’t see the you know power because I was here you know at that time you know I didn’t see the power you know here, but-eth the people who were there they were very afraid when they came here they didn’t have anything, anything err you see on the road there are four or five check up, military check and they saying you gold bangle anything they take it out, take it out, they went drop

Coz you were only allowed to take out summin like fifty pounds wasit?

Fifty pound only nothing else, my farther has a building, two buildings there you know in Tororo just there left it. And full of you know all the timber, where’ll you built timber you know, you know all this everything just left, nothing, he came fifty pound only here

Did they come and stay with you or…

Oh yeah for a while they came here you know, the first they came they’re in military camp somewhere you know, from north you know

Skegness?

Yeah seg, Skegness yeah something there and then you I went there and bring them here you know, they stay here with me you know, uh for abut…month, or month and half they stay with me and then, by that time I bought another house you know in the Cambridge road, next road, I bought another house and moved there you know, they stayed there and then my brother was working In the factory somewhere ina barking, you know. And he bought a house a next to me then they moved there you know

Must’ve been very hard?

It was very very very hard I can tell you that, when I came here nineteen eh seventy, my wife was crying at night, and say why we came here, why, because over there you know there was servant house servant, everything, clothes everything was washed by a servant everything you know, utensil washed by servant everything, and here they have to do them self, you can’t afford to have a servant here, that was the very hard job, very hard job, but…for a while we getting on then then we just do it everything, and we share everything together and fyxxx do you want a children you know, that shared everything

But you came over at the right time anyway.

Oh yes, we came here right time you know, when I when I met the prince Charles then he gave me the MB nineteen err sorry two thousand six, he asked me he says err….he said did you k , where are you came from? I say Uganda, oh Idi Amin’s king down, I say yes, he said, when did you came, I said nineteen eh seventy, did you know that he’s going to chuck away all the Asians out, I say I didn’t know that but I came before that, he asked me that question

Yeah was a pretty nasty man wasn’t he

Yeah, very very bad you know, umm you see the person who was over there you know in Uganda called Mulgiba Madwani who had a sugar factory at that time you know when I worked for them before you know and his err son is called Muabahiy Madwani, he wrote err you know tide of err fortune, [background noise] he wrote this book you know, tide of fortune you know, regarding its all the XXXX and everything is in there you know.

I must get this book….Because they left with nothing as well didn’t they?

Yeah they left with nothing as well, yeah and he wrote this book you know, and I bought this book, and err it’s a fantastic you know, he’s a XXXX also took him and put him jail. Took his shoes out without everything he say’s just walk there. So rude.

Yeah.

If you want to read this book you can take it.

Are you sure?

Sure, but give me back.

Yes of course. Yeah.

Give me back.

Yes of course. No that’s amazing, Well I might get a copy, don’t worry, I’ll, I’ll get a copy, because you know. Erm gosh, so you got your MBE in ninety, in two thousand and six, how exciting.

Two thousand and six yeah, I got my MBE, because I didn’t know, you know, because somebody is watching here you know, and err, he nominate my name. and one day I got a letter from the prime minister.

Tony Blair.

Tony Blair. He says you have been appointed as a member of British Empire and you will get err you will get a letter from there very soon. I said what? Then I just found out that who was that, that was my gap. Because every time we celebrate Divali, Christmas, we call you know all the MPs here and err, mayors and councillors, we call them there and he just watching what I am going you know. He was monitoring what I am doing, you know. He nominate my name you know. And I got MB two thousand and six you know. I was called, and I went with my family and this is Buckingham palace, you know at the back.

Oh lovely.

Yeah.

Oh.

So I went with my three sons there you know.

Yeah, oh that’s just wonderful. How did you father and you brother adapt to life in, in London?

It was very hard for them.

Yeah.

Very hard. But err, time going on there is just, only thing is in this country is the weather, weather wise, otherwise everything is fine. But now days it’s a little bit, everything is very hard now, very hard. Then before even, when we came it was hard, but it’s harder now. Even harder now by financial. Money wise, no job everywhere. My grandson, he passed the you know the aeronautic engineer. He can’t get the job. Every where he write he say have you got experience of this country, every, everywhere, experience of aeronautic engineer, he will work somewhere. Aha he just passed the university. But after say one and a half year, he got a job at err Cardiff GEC factory you know, where they err all their aeroplanes, engine, man tins, you know he got a job there, touch wood he’s working there for the last one year now.

Have you ever been back to Uganda?

No, I want to go there you know. I want to go there you know. I asked my son you he says err, he says ok we make all, we’ll, they’ll like to go there also. They’re grown up there you know, born there, you know. So he says I’ll try to go in September, all family, when the children get holiday off school you know. So ok he’s going to arrange it, I don’t know how, but err.

Because it would be interesting to see how it’s changed.

Oh its changed, a lot of, I, err people who go there and come back and I ask them, you know, and they tell me it’s completely changed now, you know, he says Uganda is a little bit better that Kenya now. There are a lot of problems in Kenya, you know, he says but Uganda is, nice he say’s. People came there, you know, when I asked you how did you like that, some of my friend were there and they say’s its ok but its developed too much.

Because you all had thriving businesses didn’t you?

Yeah

You just left them.

Yeah, everything thing left them, yeah.

Tragic really.

Yeah.

Oh that’s brilliant though MBE. So what do you do know with your time?

Well I was working for you know the, association, you know, voluntary Gujarati err welfare association, you know. Redbridge here you know, but err, now since last, last year I retired, I say I’m eighty, and I can’t work. I say I’ll come there as a member but err I don’t do any work. But if you want to ask me, any question problem, I’ll tell you. Give you advice what to do. But err, I’m, I don’t really know only do that, I’m retired completely, I’m with my, my, grandchildren, se no, seven grandchildren. They are all grown up now, they all been to the university. Only last three years at university now, otherwise everybody got err you know, their degrees and they are working, fine. My older granddaughter is err, computer consultant. Other granddaughter is err, she is doing marketing. And the other one is just a doing you know, err she’s err, what you call it err, qualified hair dresser.

Right, yes, so they are all busy people.

All busy, everybody busy init, everybody is happy. All, all my three children they got, bought a house and living separately. We too live here. They come every week and stay with us.

Lovely, that’s really nice. So did you really miss Uganda when you came here?

Pardon.

Did you miss Uganda when you came here.?

Oh yes, definite I missed Uganda. I missed Uganda.

But your life is here now isn’t it?

Yeah, what can we do now you know. It just like change of weather.

Yeah, yeah, well like today its freezing isn’t it?

Yeah [Laughs].

Yeah. Whereas in Uganda its, its, beautiful, and…

Beautiful weather. Lovely weather, because I went to you know Hong Kong, Bangkok, Singapore, Malaysia, everywhere you know I went, you know, I couldn’t find a weather like this here you know.

[laughing]

Somewhere very, very hot you know, yeah. Nice you know everywhere, but err…

Did you go on, on all those places on holiday or was it to work?

Where in Uganda?

No in, in, Bangkok, erm.

Yeah holiday.

Yeah holiday.

Just holiday. You know, just holiday.

Nice, yeah, nice. You travelled a lot?

Yeah I travelled a lot you know, I just you know, I went to all this county, here in England also you know, I’ve been there, everywhere.

You like to travel?

Yeah, well I like to travel but I don’t drive too much now you know, because my two legs you know, knee replacement. This is still done about eight months now, you know.

Yeah.

They are worn out because I love work a lot of it, you know.

[Laughing] Yeah You’ve worn them out. Yeah. Oh Mr Sudra that’s lovely, that’s really nice.

The End

Transcript not to be used without copyright

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Babulal Vri Sudra

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: 27/01/2012

Language: English

Venue:

Name of interviewer: Judith Garfield

Length of interview: 35:21

Transcribed by: Aisha Iftikhar and Taybah Choudhury

Archive Ref: 2012_esch_UgAs_02

So yeah when Eddie Amin came in did you know that he was coming?

2012_esch_UgAs_03

Can you start by telling me your name

Narentra, narentra Lothia

Can you spell that for the tape

N- A-R-E-N-T-R-A -L-O-T-H-I-A

And your date of birth Mr. Naren

21 sorry 24, [he laughs] 1, 5-2

Fiver two, so fifty two, so that makes you…

Sixty

And can you tell me where you were born?

Maska Uganda

Right, and erm what was it like growing up in Uganda

I was born there, it was very nice, yes,

In what way was it nice?

The country that you get used to, is your home, yeah the weather was nice also we didn’t expect to come ina icey cold country

What did your father do?

My father was a post master and then when he retired he became a business man

Right and that was in Uganda

Yes yes

And ww what type of business did he have

He had a retail business ina selling hi-fi, records, watches, and second hand clothes

And long did he have that business for?

From nineteen sixty four to nineteen sixty nine

And what was life like for you as a family living in Uganda

Much nicer, and in those days I much younger, not married, you know it was different

Did all the Asian communities stick together or did you mix much with erm the Africans or

Personally we did, my father taught all his children you know, to be alike, we all belong to one god and we were taught to associate with every religion and every culture, every cast and every creed

Was there much mixing around communities, did communities get together or was it like a very close knit community the

Yes, Asian community mixed up only within the Asian, but generally ourselves my family we always had seen co communities coming to our house, and we’ve gone to different people

Where did your father come from

Originally from India

Whereabouts in India

He was born In Africa, his father came to Africa

Right so why did his father to Africa

He came to work in a rabbi, he was bought to east Africa by British, well world company you know

So you been, you third generation in, in

I was the third generation there yes

And what was school like In Uganda

We had a level education there, Cambridge so eh yeah yeah very good education

And what did you study

Metricalasian

Right, and erm what did you do when you left school

When I left school, I was working for my dad, even when I was in the school I was working with my dad and I after I left I was working with him, and then he thought it was better that I work for somebody else and then found me a job as an insurance sales man and-eh that’s what I was doing until I left Uganda.

Where where did you get married in Uganda

Yes yes

Was it an arranged marriage?

Yes yeah

So how did you meet your wife

My father saw her, yes, she was a daughter of err my father’s friend yes

Right, and as she from Uganda or?

Yes she was from Uganda

And her family lived there

Course her family lived there yes

What was your house like in, in Uganda

Big house, yes

Can you describe it a little bit

It was with many room, we lived upstairs ur above the shop, so it was easy to in the shop, back home shop wherever, my parents needed us we were there and then come back upstairs to study. Play around and that was it

How many brothers and sisters did you have

We are six brothers and two sisters

Big family

My uncle also used to live us, two uncles used to live with us, and two aunties

Right

Yes coz my father was the eldest in the family and er he had to look after all his brothers and sisters and-eh his children

So he must’ve had to work hard then, to look after a

My father was blessed, he was very kind hearted and he could, since he had pure thoughts, and was always ready in helping

Right

Yeah

That’s really nice, so erm it must’ve in quite nice growing up in such a big family, you kinda looked after each other

Yes

So what kind of games did you play you know

Cricket, marbles, cycling, football, athletic we also err had cross country sometimes yeah, so we had and numerous other games, we also played like monopoly, ludo got too many other little games, some we used to create ourselves you know

Like what, remember any?

Just fun games you know, yeah I can’t remember any much but it was because you didn’t want to spend much money and they were not that easily available so it was fun, the mind was always creative

I know had to make things up didn’t you

Yes

So you were obviously well you they were under British rule erm what was it like when the British rule in Uganda

When the British ruled, I was very young so I will not be able to compare much, yeah, yeah

So what was it like I mean what why did you come to the UK?

Well almost everyone knows what Edi Amin has done and why we were here, he had a dream that all the Asians were to be sent away from Uganda, because they were making the eh economy of Uganda, and eh as it was dream in such a way that he thought, instructed him so he did it

What was it like when Edi Amin came to power?

You won’t believe When he came to power the very next day he was in our shop, I remember this because we got scared, xxxx and eh he seemed to be pleasant man, when we met him he shook our hands and he put his hand on my eh my head coz I was little you know and eh he just walked away

Did he say anything

No he just wanted us to support him, and he asked if we were happy

What do you think we answered [he laughs] you guessed yes,

Can’t really..wha wha, I mean did he come with alot of people did he?

He had an army with him, he also was carrying a gun, erm pistol with him err full army dressed yes, I can remember he had a pistol on his left side

And he just walked into your shop

Yes, and my neighbours shop as well......first he went to his neigh- er our neighbour

[phone rings] excuse me

Yes of course

So yeah when Eddie Amin came in did you know that he was coming?

No we didn’t know he was coming. It was just a surprise visit.

And he turned up with all his, his army?

Yes.

How scary was that?

Very scary it was, but it happened so fast that the later feeling was quite comfortable, you know. As nothing had happened so we were quite, quite happy that nothing had happened.

Hmm, were people very scared of him?

Yes, they were all scared of him. Everyone, during his power, very scarred. Because err, we often heard stories where he would arrest ministers, or anyone who’s not on his side. They would be arrest, tortured and sometimes even killed.

Yeah, so did you know anyone that had, that had happened to?

No, not personally that I err, that not that personally I know, knew anyone. But we often use to her hear stories about, even when I was so young. Err we use to hear these kind of things because we had to be very safe, err as to where we go, up to what time we go, and when we come back home. For our safety.

Hmm, your mother must have been petrified.

Mothers are always petrified, whether Eddie Amin was in power or not. [Laughs]

So did you see things change when he was in power?

Things changed yes, but not for good, things changed for worse. Erm, since err, his army use to loot a lot of shop keepers. They use to visit shops almost every so often whenever they needed money or goods you they would just come and take it.

So that happened to your Father a lot?

My Father was a very calm loving person. And he believed in God.,And god that will protect him. We were pretty safe. Nothing had happened to us. As to any harassment, or, no nothing like that.

Was it a shock when Eddie Amin told everyone to leave?

It was a shock for those people who had no money, and they didn’t know where to go. Yes it was shock. But for those who had British passports and they knew that they could come here. Since most people were in connected with United Kingdom, they knew what they were coming to.

Cos you weren’t given long to get out, were you?

We were given ninety days only. And during those ninety days, your documents had to be prepared, we have experienced err, long, long, it was like a second world war. Situation in Uganda, everything was rushing. Military check points everywhere. Err, if you had any money, which you would because you had to buy tickets, or you had to buy you know food. You know, while you are waiting in the queue, and this money sometimes were taken away by the check points. We didn’t experience this, like I said God was always with us, yeah, we didn’t experience, but a car in front of us, it happened to that car once I remember. But not to us.

What actually happened to the car in front?

He just asked err this person to come out. They checked his wallet, you know. And err, I remember a lady came out from the car as well, almost everybody came out but there was a lady in the car and the army men was going all over, you know touching, this women. And it was nothing the men could do or we could to help, you could only pray that they would be safe, left alone, quickly and, that they would let them go. And that's what happened, but they took the wallet. Complete wallet. Yes.

So what happened? Did your father- was he able to get anything out of the country? Was he-

My father was an honest man, like I say he was very Godly, he’d never sent money out of the country like many Asians did, and therefore he did not have any money overseas. Yeah.

So you had ninety days to get out and erm, could you take anything with you?

We were allowed to take only fifty pounds, English money.

Right and-

B-Both family.

And that included all of your extended family or just, your father-

Per family, not per person. My father was allowed to take fifty pounds.

So you had to leave the whole business behind.

Yes, we had to leave the whole business behind, yeah.

So where, when did you know you were coming to the UK?

We didn’t come to the UK, like I said I’m not British Citizen. I’m a Netherlands. From there, because we were Ugandan citizens, we were Ugandan Asian; we did not have British Passport. So we were in a dilemma, either we go to India, or we go to contraries that are sponsoring, to take certain professional Asians from Uganda. And err it was a very hard choice. I had an opportunity to go to Switzerland, also to Canada. But my father wasn’t, and I wanted to stick with the family, so I gave up those two chances, and we stick together. We were searching for a possible sponsor to take us somewhere, out of, out of Uganda. We did not want to go to India because we did not know anybody there. And we had heard that the Europeans are very helpful, and most of our families were coming to United Kingdom. So maybe it will be easier for us to go to Europe and then maybe in future con, reconnect to our families . And that's what we did. Err we had a sponsor err, to take us to Austria, in the world’s biggest refugee camp. We settled in Austria as refugees. Within days, the Dutch ,the Swedish, the Finnish, German, Belgium, Luxemburg, all these countries came to, take certain amount of Asian people from this particular camp. Again they did not err, discriminate whether it should be professional or non professional or disable or it didn’t matter to them. It was completely on a humanitarian ground that they will take us. And err, we decided, that we would go to Netherlands. Looking at the map, Netherlands was not too far from United Kingdom and that they spoke English. Err very well, and we thought and we felt since it was a personal invitation from the queen herself, in those days it was queen Juliana, erm in Netherlands. Her majesty was absolutely kind. And the delegation was given specific instructions how to treat us. What to do with us. That they would feel proud, that Netherlands, the Dutch people would feel really proud that they have helped somebody and that they’ve honoured somebody, and they’ve honoured their own queen, in such a way that they’ve treated us with dignity. So we came to the country, they gave us home, clothes, money, jobs. Whatever that was necessary that was given to us straight away. Yes. We came during the winter time, so not only the delegation at that, but the Dutch people themselves, came along and offered us help, take us to there homes, try teach us their language, try and teach us what they err do, how they live. Even find us jobs. You know in many cases, they become really part of our families. Yes. And err, eventually we managed to come to United Kingdom, because the- England joined the EC, it wasn’t then, the restrictions were taken away.

So how long were you in the refugee camp for?

Only for a few days.

What was it like in the refugee camp?

Err my memory... it was not very good. For many people, because I can remember one of the richest man in Uganda who had, erm, erm, very big business there, was with as a refugee. Had nothing at all. And erm, we were taken away from this particular camp, to err, brought to another camp. And over there we were given rooms, individual rooms, err we had special kitchen where we could cook our own food, but for the community not individual. Yes, whatever you do you had to do it for the community, the whole community that was that. In the camp people were trying to give us some clothes. Some food or whatever, whoever came to give something, there were, people were jumping for it, as if they never seen anything like that before. And to see one of these rich men, a business man to behave like that was shocking. You know. That was shocking. We, we were not really like that, we were just waiting for our turn, always discipline that we were told not to rush by our father. Just relax. What will come to you, will come to you. And err, obviously waited for things to happen, we had the best, always the best. Yes, people could see this, people are not rushing, so they would come say look take this.

So how much were you allowed to take with you, fifty pounds and what just a suitcase?

Even the suitcase in our, in our case nothing was taken away, but in many cases some of the suitcases were taken by the, by the, by the err check points. Armies you know. Some could bring something, some people could not bring anything you know. In our case we had some of clothes. Short sleeve shirts and light trousers, you know. It wasn’t enough. Yeah.

So you went to, where about in Holland did you go to?

We were taken to Amsterdam, oh yes were given also special tour by the queen. For the, for the, countries of major cities in the country. We were taken in the buses, the trams, and trains. They showed us the country within days. Where we, we were, where we were coming to live. Yes.

So did they give you accommodation in Amsterdam?

That they gave us a little, we were first brought into a camp again, because they were not ready for us. They took very impulsive decision; err to take fifty families, not fifty people, fifty families. Err could be family for just two or family in our case for ten you know, but fifty. We were taken to a camp first and from that camp each individual was given a place in a different place. It was then very well organised by them, because they did not want us to live together. They wanted us to learn to emancipate with the society, which I think the British made the mistake when the Asian came here. They were sent to all one particular place like Leicester and err Southall at the time you know. And the rest, the Dutch people sent us all into different places. Sometimes we were miles away from each other, you know.

Did that make you feel alienated at all?

No it was for the benefit for of our own self. You know, it was, acceptable. We were not scarred because we initially we were very welcomed, well hearted. And err we did not feel anything like that no.

And what was the accommodation like that they gave you?

Brand new flats, brand new furniture, brand new curtains. Brand new err, kitchen err utensils. Everything brand new. Brand new carpets. Brand new bed. You know.

Your dad made the right choice didn’t he?

Yes, he made a right choice. But it was not just with us, we hear then wherever people went in Europe they were given a similar treatment. They all had fantastic treatment. They all settled down, very well in Europe.

So what, what job was your given? Was he given a job or-

When he left Uganda then he did not work err, at all. He was mainly a representative of the fifty Uganda families with the Dutch government, and he became err, like a service man, you know. To the Asians, the Ugandan Asians in Netherlands, he will be present for any problems or translations or any, any other, he was like a minister. Yes.

That's great, so what did you do in Holland?

Well I came first in Holland I started looking for a job. And err, they were going to find me a job, but luckily when I s- I said they’ve done so much for us I think its also our duty to see if we can err, get up and look for jobs ourselves. Which I did. I went in one of the offices and somebody there spoke English, because I did not speak Dutch at all at the time. Only I picked up a few words to say thank-you good-bye and err, hello, you know. The guy tried to help me in translation, and he realised that I will not get a job there, but he said I think I know where I can get you a job. So he took me to one particular insurance company. And the insurance company saw this as a fantastic opportunity for them, to come into the media. Because we were very much in the media at the time in the Dutch national news paper and everywhere. You know, especially my father. Yeah he was almost every day in the newspaper. [Laughs]

Was he really?

For one reason or the other.

What did he do, I mean-

For helping mostly the Ugandan people in the Dutch government, err, he became a media between the two, and err, he was, he done a good job for many people. I am proud of my dad. Yes. and err yes this guy took me to this particular place and err without an interview [laughs] even though I don’t speak Dutch, I don’t write Dutch, I was given a job, and the next thing, I had all these newspaper guys coming into the office taking my pictures you know, and asking me this and that, like what are you doing now, you know, it was like err, like a hero. [Laughs] Yes I was in the newspaper again, yeah.

Right were you married at this time?

Yes, yes, yes, yeah.

So your wife was-

Also yes.

Did she work at all?

No.

No, no, no, so how long were you in insurance, in, in, Holland?

I worked there for six months, I was frustrated because I could not write, or speak that much, I had like almost twenty, thirty by then, err, I was a fast learner, to learn languages, because in Africa we spoke quite a African languages, native languages, so naturally we were, [phone rings] excuse me.

It’s alright.

So yeah so erm

Yeah so er after six months I decided within 6 months I had decided that, ill open my own business, and I did

And what was your business

I was the first Ugandan Asian to open a business in the Netherlands, yeah...i was selling, I was importing beads from India, had crafted beads and I was selling them to the err we used to call it kulsmafarid but I don't know what is the English word for it, err they are special handy craft shops, were you sell these kind of things, those people very, they really love handy crafts, there were always one or two shops in one town of this kin, we had customers all over, I was doing so well that within three months I bought my brand new car, also again the first Ugandan Asian to buy a new car [he laughs] yes, I was very young but I did my Father was very proud of me, yes I did very well in the business, and eh I was trying help others at the same time, to see if they could do the same thing you know in a different way, yeah there I was, then I came here

So how long did you do that for?

I did that for nineteen seventy four, I also had a Dutch partner, in this business you know, who was interested to help me invest money into it, buy second hand car because I had to go round and I managed to do this business for nineteen seventy four to nineteen seventy eight, yes

And what did you do in seventy eight

Then I stopped this business, then I was selling second hand cars, that kind of things afterwards

Why did you stop the business if it was

It, my partner wanted to have some more money coz he was doing so well I rather stop

So you went and sold second hand cars

Yes

How did that go

That also went very well, I was selling cars from there to Nigeria and Ghana, again I back to the African natives you know [he laughs]

And what was it like living in Holland

Very nice, very very nice, very clean country the Dutch people were I would say fantastic people, yes

So when did you come over, over to eh the UK

Er nineteen eight two

Why did you come over here?

My families were here

That must’ve been such a big difference

Yes yes

An where about in the UK did you come to

I came to east ham first yes

So what was it like, what was your first impression when you came over to East Ham

Well I met alot of Asians, because when I was in Netherlands I was already coming to see my friends you know, almost once a month, so I was almost used to the country

So it was no different really

Yes, I first came to this country in nineteen seventy three and from then on, almost every, every so often, sometimes six times a year I was here

And what was your first impressions in nineteen seventy three?

When I came to England?

Yeah

Er it was, first it was quite unusual, unusual for me because err things were different from the continent, people talked so many beautiful things about United Kingdom when I was in Uganda, there was a great respect for the country and the people, when I came first here I I loved it as much I loved er Holland, and I realised people were also equally friendly, the British society are the best society and yes I would say the most tolerant people in Europe, I would say the British people are really

What more so then the Dutch

Yes, the Dutch can tolerate.....only if they know you, if they don't know you they will not tolerate you and that has happened to me, coz I when I was business and I could not speak the language and I'm trying to do business in English they’ll say sorry, I'm not gonna buy this from you until you come back and speak to me in Dutch

You’re kidding

Not I'm not kidding, and that was not just once or twice, many times in many shops, would do the same, expected foreigners if they liaison to speak their language, and I I understood their point, and I really did learn the language properly and every time I went there I tried, tried to speak Dutch and they would give me a little alley way say okay, next time probably better [he laughs] yeah that's how it was.

So when you first came to erm to East Ham, what did you do

I was unemployed, coz then I had already, I was selling some cars off and on, but-eh then I was looking for a job, err jobs were difficult, I have never worked for anybody in my life apart from that insurance company, and eh when another insurance company which was short period of time because by the time my Father found me a job, on settling we had time to leave, so there was not much experience working for somebody else, I decided to er to open a another business here, it was difficult no money, and err we spent all of our time, looking for something prospective we couldn’t find anything, yeah me and my wife, my wife was working at the time, she found a job in one of the hotels as a register clerk she was doing fantastic there, that kept us going, yea I do not believe in signing on, so erm I didn’t want to do anything of that sort, neither it were done before......at that point, I found one company that was trying to give me a job and I refused to take the job but I said I will work as a commission agent, coz I like to work in my own time, and it was like selling collages and clocks made from watch pass, must’ve seen them in the city, big bens, tower bridges, rolls Royce, yeah and I worked for a company called L-kursh, Lankursh but it was known as l-kursh, forest gate, the customers were like Selfridges, army and navy some big companies and I used to service them, I did very well over there, eventually the company went burst, erm I didn’t know I was working for a company that was in trouble at the time, and I was the resource that was keeping them, because I bought so many new customers and in the end eh the company closed, but the one of the directors company, the fonder, the founder of the companies daughter wanted to do business with me and we started, we wanted the same business in a separate way, and that what I did alongside with picture framing and the rest, and err eventually I opened this shop, twenty two years, yeah

And you’re still living in East Ham?

No, I live in Ilford

So when did you move to Ilford

Uhhhhh when did I move to Ilford? Nineteen eighty four yeah

And does your wife still work?

Oh no she works with me here, yeah we we, since we open the shop, since we have two children, that stories not been tact [he laughs] in our marriage we have two children yeah two boys, one has his own business ehh, both are educated, you they done masters, err with distinction and honours in Karss university, and the other one is with me, and he’s also trying to open his own business but he’s working at the moment, er my wife since we’ve had children she’s never worked and after they’ve grown she’s always helped me in the shop

Have you ever been back to Uganda?

No, I'm not thinking of going back to Uganda

Must’ve been quite a wrench, sorting of having to go somewhere and not have anything at all, and have to start again

Alot of people have gone back to Uganda but some are, that fear of unsafety is built in me and there is no need for me to go, if there was a need then it’s a different story, the people who actually have left their properties and money and again the greed has bought them back to Uganda.

Did they get any of it back

They have, most of them have got their properties back yes

Right right, did they get any compensation

I'm not really too much in depth, with what is happening recently, but er they were offered properties and I know one or two of them of my friends they have managed to get their properties back, yes

Must be very difficult for your wife and for your Father coz I suppose you were probably used to, servants, you know not servants but you know comfortable way of life

Yes

In Uganda and then to leave with absolutely nothing

We struggled but when you have god with you , that is not, not necessary, then you have everything, one must remember in the time of struggle or time of happiness if you balance your mind that they’re are both the same there is such much difference between them or there is no difference at all, but as as human beings we cannot say that we will see the difference, I’ll say, if you see it, if you balance it you won’t suffer that much, and I think my Father bought us up very well, we did suffer

Did he come over to the UK

No he stayed in Netherlands, he passed away

So that's really interesting, it’s very very interesting, so your time in the UK has it been good?

Yes, UK has given me everything, and I’ve given my best to the UK as well

You’ve had this shop for how long

Twenty years now

It’s quite a long time

Long time yes

My wife and I, run this shop together, it was built from scratch

So you taught yourself all that you know...

No, we had this business back in Uganda you know, it’s just that, I did not utilise this scales, until I opened this business but my Father taught, whatever business he was doing, we had to know, we had to know, coz we used to sell watches we used to sell hi-fis, television whatever we were selling we were also repairing so, we were taught these skills

So you can repair watches?

Yes, hi-fi, television....i have lost the practise of that at the time, there is alot of new modern things but as for watches, yes yes, jewellery yes

Right right, and where do you get most of your jellewery is it from aboard or?

We get the them from Antigara, yes we buy it from eh suppliers in Antigara, they get them from aboard yes, we are only small jewellers we are not a very big jeweller so that we have to import jewellery

Well you know it’s still nice, you its

It’s not too bad, in twenty two years, what we done you know from scratch

That's the point isn’t it

Yeah, this was nothing before here, we built up. Business is not a you know a product

Do you know all your brothers and sisters come over to the UK from?

Yes, they’re all into business and employment, we have never depended on social security, were all hard working people, Asian people generally are very hard working people, especially those from Uganda

Well you did so well over there didn’t you, and that was through hard work

Yes, at one stage I remember, there was somewhere in the newspaper that there are about eighteen millionaires out of 100 and they are from Uganda and this country

I think was it seventy two thousand came over

Yes, and er well over thirty percent er taxes paid by Ugandan Asian in this country, so that is phenomenal

Absolutely absolutely

And speech from Prince Charles, some weeks ago, praising the Ugandan Asians was, did you hear that one?

I did, I did

Was again something to be proud of [police sirens]

Well I interviewed somebody a few weeks ago, who who erm, got an n-v-e and erm he was saying how erm,[police sirens] he met prince Charles and erm prince Philip and he got his NVE, and they congratulated him and said what a, you know, how beneficial it was for the UK, the Ugandan Asians coming over

Yes

So proud of that

Yes

Absolutely

The children have become doctors, solicitors, and many professional people, they are from Uganda

Which would be skills that we wouldn’t have

Well, we have a saying that, the world goes on, you don't have to think it depends on you, but if your there it helps, its

That's amazing, anyway thank you very very much for your time

The End

Transcript not to be used without copyright

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Narentra Lothia

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: 13.02.2012

Language: English

Venue: interviewees shop

Name of interviewer: Judith Garfield

Length of interview: 42.25

Transcribed by: Aisha Ifitkar and Taybah Choudhury

Archive Ref: 2012_esch_UgAs_03

2012_esch_UgAs_04

2012_esch_UgAs_04

OK. So this is Lwam Tesfay, from Eastside Community Heritage interviewing Vinod Tailor, on seventeenth of December two thousand and twelve. OK, so if you can just um, begin with telling me your, date of birth and where you were born?

OK. I was born in fifty seven. And… born in Uganda, um…we were, living, in a small town outside of Kampala and er, during, the crisis of nineteen seventy two, when Idi Amin decided that the, Asians must leave the country within the ninety days. Um…having lived in a small town what had happened was that, OK of course the ninety day limit was there, and um…I had, I was the eldest then I’ve got three sisters and a brother. Now what happened was that the town of the village we lived in, was also nearby was a military camp.

OK.

Now the military was basically, told to do, rampage and go wild as and when they felt. So… I, my father’s house was there but it wasn’t big enough. So, my sisters and that XXXX I use to go to a relative’s house…

Mm-hmm.

…to sleep at night. Now during that one night there, and this er, ninety day was already in progress…

Mm-hmm.

a next door neighbour, um… we use to have corrugated sheet houses, they were not concrete houses.

Yeah.

So corrugated sheet houses, and… what had happened was that, military at about two a.m early hours of the morning, they came in and they started shooting. And obviously, they went next door because they knew there’s a young lady there.

[Telephone rings]

So…they wanted to rape her. And er…obviously, didn’t happen so they shot her.

You, you were there?

I was in the house next door.

Yeah.

And you could hear the bullets, you know, just going through because you know, they were firing, just like, mad people and either they were drunk, the, you know the military or you know, drugs, or whatever it may be. And then they shot the father of the girl as well, er… the brother tried to protect and he…had er… wounds on his legs, but he was OK. So, that…you know, moment after that two a.m incident, that first thing in the morning…

Mm-hmm.

… the whole town of Asians whatever there weren’t many anyway…

Yeah.

… in that little village. Everybody just decided, at the dawn of the morning, just pack up and leave. So we all went to Kampala…

Yeah.

… try and get a ticket. Try and queue up with the British High Commission and see what was the first exit. And when they left the comiss…so we just left everything as it is. Even the workers we didn’t tell them…

Mm-hmm.

… what was, what was we just left.

Yeah.

Just take your passports, and off you go.

Yeah.

And, so that’s how we arrived in Kampala… then the journey, from the airport to the airport, from Kampala all of us also was very frightening because, you had lots of checkpoints.

Mm-hmm.

… and the military would see all your ‘oh, you’re OK you’re wearing a necklace? OK. You’re wearing…bangles? [snatch sound effect]. So…

Take it off?

So, XXXX just, you just had to give it.

Yeah.

Because you wouldn’t dare, say anything. And then, is what happened during that time. Now…yes, the Asians that there were there, we all moved into schools and everything else but there were not, they were just like normal secondary schools…

Yeah.

…as you have it here in this country, so there was no private education, of course they were fee-paying…

Yeah.

…schools. But there wasn’t like private education and a free education so you didn’t that differential. So one fine day, then anyway we managed to get out, and get on the flight. We arrived at Stansted, and the moment we arrived at Stansted, there was a er, Ugandan resettlement board had been created. People came that looked us, took us. The next thing is, that you…we were put on a coach and taken to Suffolk. That was where we went of course not knowing what UK was about…

Mm.

…what. We ended up in Suffolk we went to this camp, a lot of, few coaches or whoever arrived that day, there was a two hundred people, two hundred fifty people on the flight, so we were all down. Then many flights started coming in, and everybody was brought in. And then, the camps were dotted around, um…but, the thing was that, even when arrived…of course we were all frightened, experience of particularly personal, like my father who lived and worked and hoped that he was gonna die in that country. And never have of thought that he would have to come to UK.

Yeah.

And suddenly, it’s a shock, of culture, shock of, the weather… shock of everything because there’s, whatever it is, he…he was fine. They were happy. We were there in the camp, at Suffolk and obviously you… were trying, it was like a dormitory.

Yeah.

You know there was long…

Like halls?

Yes, yes there was a big dormitory just everybody was just, so many beds were lined up like a hospital. There was no rooms for everybody and just did, nobody had room, you just… stayed there.

Like it was like a one, big…

Yeah yeah one big hall, open plan…

Of beds?

So that…

OK.

…beds everywhere. So that’s how it was, and then they gave us a couple of pounds, there was second hand clothing given. Winter clothing given because it was October.

Mm-hmm.

And… we just had to take that, and then they asked what skills we had, or what, what we could do, how it could be done. And, like… for example, we had maternal uncle, my mum’s brother who… said ‘OK, what we gonna do with this? How long’? And then obviously were, he went to the board and found out what is happening, what they’re doing. And…people just started to say ‘OK fine’, and uncle said ‘look…there is a possibility of a job in Luton...

Yeah.

…and there’s another relative, apparently there…from the community and he says that, there are vacancies’. So… OK fine, we just did, and we, my uncle said ‘look why don’t you move with me now’, so we in moved in with him in Finchley.

Mm-hmm.

And my dad went to Luton, started to work and lived those relatives, and once the job was there and he found it, then immediately within two three weeks we…he found a rented place….

Mm-hmm.

… and we went to the rented place. It was two bedrooms, not two bed, two rooms. And two rooms rented, and um…we lived there, and five of us, seven of us. Five um…siblings…

Mm-hmm.

…and my parents. In those days, you use to have these slot machines for your gas and your electricity.

Yeah.

And there was no central heating as such…

Yeah.

so you had these paraffin heaters. So you knew, what would happen if you put in the ten p. You can get gas for ‘x’ amount of time of electricity so there was no television or anything.

Yeah.

We didn’t have anything, and… because we came in the winter, um…we literally were in bed by six p.m, because there was nothing else to do. It was cold, we couldn’t afford to put up the heating and all that.

Yeah.

And that was that, and mum found a job as well. And um.. she was working for a company which made clothes for infants. And… she would come, and… because it would get dark by five p.m and she finishes… and she would get lost, because every house looked the same.

[LAUGHS]

Unless you knew the name of the street, and you named the house number it was difficult so she’d get lost. You’d try and find her… and trying to get into schools, and because we came after the term already started in September…

Yeah.

So it was all of this kind of things that were there, but… it was difficult, but same time we said ‘OK, we’ll make the ends meet’. And my father was earning nineteen pounds and ten pence, and every Friday he use to get this little envelope with your cash, cheque in… there was no cheques, cos you would get, get paid, you know by cash.

Mm-hmm.

And eleven pounds was rent. So we had eight pounds ten pounds left, for seven of us to live on the week. So, that is how the journey started, and I, use to have to go to school because I was still not sixteen.

Yeah.

You wouldn’t. So you’d get your part-time job, and in those days you use to have Thursday, Friday and Saturday. Thursday and Friday were late night shoppings, and they’d close at eight o’clock. So you went from five til eight, so three hours…on Friday, three hours on…so sorry, Thursday, Friday, three and three hours and then, you did your eight hours on Saturday. And you would get paid about two pounds fifty or something like that.

Mm-hmm.

And um… that’s what I was doing, cos others were younger than me so they couldn’t work. And um… it was a challenge. But that challenge became… more challenging as soon I got to the age of sixteen, I… I passed my er… C-S-E in er… Guajarati… and I think, Geography, or something like that, but I mean results were no important to me neither was any education important to me. Initially the aspirations were to be a doctor and all that, but that was, Uganda days. But it was not to be. So you started working… and out of the five us, I think my, er… one of the sisters she, she is…um…she went to do A levels.

Mm-hmm.

And, um… she was the highest educated amongst us. And then she xxx Radiography Luton Dunstable Hospital. Then of course, she got married and settled, she’s the Head of Radiography in Milton Keynes now. And the other one, became a Librarian, the one, the elder xxx the one younger to me, she got married to a teacher and then, she was working for some companies and, she never did um, A Levels or anything like that.

OK.

….either. So they were all, then I had to take up the responsibility and, because of the change of the weather and everything, so my father started suffering from arthritis…and um, then he had, because of the arthritis tablets that created complication with his heart

Yeah.

So the responsibilities fell on me very quickly so I had to grow up very quick. So of course, the job in Tesco had to continue. Then as soon as I got sixteen I…then applied to Natwest.

Mm-hmm.

And the job was almost like a paperboy, or, very low.

Yeah.

It was er, about eight hundred and sixty four pounds a year. I use to pay two hundred and fifty pound train ticket. Out of that…taxes were high, and that’s the way I started my career in that bank. But I still had to continue that job and I even worked in a Bureau de Change…

Mm-hmm.

…in er…in Oxford Street. So I use to continue with three jobs, because you still had to continue the ends meet, the cost of, marriages, my sisters, all of those things were sort of, there, I could see, that I had to put up. And we where then given a council house

Yep.

To move from the rental to a council house, then council house eventually we bought and then…that’s how it all, moved on. But the responsibility fell very early stage of my life, um…do I have any regrets? No, I think that made me a better person, to understand what, what was wasn’t…there were challenges.

Mm-hmm.

Er… there was, you could see some prejudices that were there, but we never took prejudices as a negative thing… or you know, specific XXXX. Anybody, you know, coming to the country and then taking over, there would be some resentment and we accepted that…

Yeah.

…that would be resentment because you go back to…wherever back to India, or you go back to Eritrea, you go and you feel like…oh they’ll say ‘OK, here she comes from London now. She think she knows it all’.

Mm. [LAUGHS].

There's an immediate barrier.

Of course.

They never regard you as their own. And that’s, that’s the same thing that is within India as well.

Yeah.

So you had that, and then, you say ‘OK, well… I really truly want to help but what can I do because you’re not going to accept me’, they think you are educated, you are learned so you are there just to give them a lip service and then leave. But that’s not what everybody does, maybe some do. Um... but that was a great experience. Then I moved along in my banking career because I wanted to XXXX I did find, bit of resistance in terms of er… prejudice, there was little bit of it. But again, as I said to you earlier…I did not take it as a wrong thing. That yes, they are entitled to say what they’re saying because I’m in…

Yeah.

…their country, taking things away from them. The council house will be given to one of them.

Yeah.

Here I am, because we were five, because in the points system we came up higher so we got it.

Yeah.

Um… you know, so I did feel bad for them, and never it took XXXX, we got to get on with it and I just did, I, we just took up challenges and moved on. And said ‘alright, how could I better my life’? The question was that. Within that time also, um…I’ again, I’m talking about myself this time, is that, alright, I’ve got the opportunity. What would have happened if it didn’t, and you start thinking, and then I felt that alright, do we now…what do we about the culture, this country. OK we accept the British culture but the same time, I think… it would be nice to keep your own identity as well. Because that would make, Britain a better place, because it will bring in, er…a different kind of cultures, it would bring maybe, society a bit more cosmopolitan. And there’s a lot of learning to be done by the British too. Because there were lot of goodness’s in us that they needed to learn, the, you know, the family values and things like that. Which they had…

Yeah.

During the Victorian age, probably did, but as society evolved there was also getting less, church was, church going was getting less and even if you look at it today, I mean it’s the Africans that keep the churches going. Because you don’t see the British British has done, some of them do go.

Mm.

But a lot of them not, that’s why a lot of churches were sold off, um…to, turn into mosques or…turn into seven Adventist…

Yeah.

…or some sort of Christian faith, or, whatever odd temples and gurdwara whatever it is. So, the advantage of this country was, that, they have been very liberal in letting you practice your faith. You wanted to work hard, please go ahead. Nobody stopped you. If you wanted to take the advantage of the education, do better for yourself it was there.

Yeah.

I mean, in those days, university fees didn’t exist. They were free.

Yeah.

Right. So there was huge amount of opportunities, that this country gave and I think you had your, even despite us complaining today when about NHS and that, but, once you’re there they do take care of you, the system works. I do have, I don’t believe there’s anybody that can say ‘well, I’m in the state of starvation, where’ve I've got nothing nothing nothing’.

Yeah.

But there are people out of choice that they do it. But, a majority of them, I think are, have something at least. And I think that’s the good part of this…er, society. There is very tolerant on faith, their tolerant, on speech, there is democracy, er, whatever it works or not it doesn’t matter but it’s there.

Yeah.

And I think that’s the greatest part of Britain, I think that is what it is. And having seen, through my banking career, that, going from retail banking which is you know, Natwest and then into international banking…then into investment banking, then into private banking. I've done the rim of the banking, um....and again, through hard work, honesty and a lot of grace, er, from above, I think, I was able to do…er…

[Telephone rings]

…what I wanted to do.

Yeah.

And er…again, opportunities were there then, as time evolved, you, you start to give back to society, you get involved more in the society. and you do whatever you can. And at the time of doing it, it’s not necessarily, you do it as a British, you do it as… XXXX I want to give back. And yes, I do try and do charities in India, I do work in Africa with charities in Africa as well. Um, quite a lot of charities in Africa in fact, and there is more aspiration to do more as time goes by.

Yeah. That’s really interesting. Um, I kinda wanted to go a little bit back towards your experience in, in Uganda.

Yeah.

What did your father do?

My, we had a small tailoring shop.

OK.

So he used to do, made-to-measure suits, shirts, trousers and things like that. That’s how it was, it was him. He would do the cutting of the…the thing and then there would be, couple of workers who would stitch up, the trousers on that. So that is what it was. Um…and but it was like, a small shop, so it wasn’t like, you know he was going to ever become very very wealthy or anything like that but, it was good to give you a decent life.

OK.

So that’s how it was, and then, I say when I look back, had we not come, what would I have done, based on that, the cost of education, um…what I have continued to study further? I don’t know.

Mm.

Right. So that’s why coming to this country, opened up many many opportunities. Even for me, even though, I didn’t do further education, but certainly for my brothers, my sisters, there was opportunity for them. Because they knew that they could, XXXX that something to fall back on. It wasn’t pressure on them to go and get…work, start working immediately.

Yeah.

So that was the advantage.

Do, do you remember when um…Idi Amin made the announcement?

Yes, we were aware of when the announcement was made. People thought, that no he wouldn’t be serious, but as time went by, like I told you with the killing and everything else and, more horrendous reports coming out from different parts of Uganda. So we knew that time had come to leave now. There wasn’t much, either you play around with your life

Yeah.

Or you just accept it and move on. And we did.

Did you ever anticipate, once, once he came into power, anticipate that, you would ever, ever leave Uganda before that?

See the thing is again, and now er…if you look a Uganda, as I said, nobody envisaged that. And then nobody does in any part of the world, you know. Whether you’re from any part of, you know, whether you came from Eritrea or wherever. We didn’t leave because of choice.

Mm.

If the trouble was not there, would we have left the answer is no. Would you have left Eritrea if XXXX, would your mother have left?

Probably not, of course not.

No, so that’s what I’m saying. So, the circumstances, of the time has made us move, and migrate to wherever. And again, as I said, we were very fortunate because I have been very fortunate to travel across, the globe I would say. And believe me, I lived in other places, worked for a British bank, Americans, and Japanese but my experiences are that what Great Britain, and I don’t call it United Kingdom, what Great Britain gives you is tremendous. And I , despite the weather, despite everything else believe me, after a little while. You feel no, no, no I want to go back.

Yeah.

Right, because of the tolerancy, because of the vibrancy, because of the cosmopolitan. and, culturally also you can enrich yourself so much.

Yeah.

You know, and the education system…

[TELEPHONE RINGS]

…like I said, not like, at the moment British Library, you got this mogul art exhibition from India.

India yeah.

You know, its brilliant, XXXX so, there is so much opportunity. In this country I think, it’s what you want to make of yourself you can go ahead and do it.

Yeah.

Er…even compared to other countries in the west, the advantage you and I had was, because we speak English. So we know that, we know that there’s a common law, there is some sort of system, alright. But the systems were there when we came in it was even much better, because the cost of living was cheaper so you could afford to do a lot of things. You see house prices were low.

Yeah.

Right, so one could get onto, the ladder, but relative, again, to the income…that time. So, incomes have gone up, but, have we improved the quality of our lives to…to compensate, I don’t think so. I think er, you know the society has evolved and er, a lot of things. I think um, as you would probably ask your mum that she was working but she was working but she was very happy to do it, she would enjoy to get up to do some work. And, despite having siblings and she would still um, be one bread winner but she was happy and, all the family would be happy. Today I think, we got everything but we got yet, nothing I think people have lost this…um, comfort of joy and happiness that was there before I think, industalise, industrialisation also, has created issues with it because I think and the way, the corporates think as well so we, become sort of…slaves, of greed, or economic claves, so even in the education I think er…yes it is there but I think education also has evolved, because before we use when I, when we came in the seventies it was technical colleges, and you had er… you know, apprenticeships.

Yeah.

And that all went out of the window, er… as time went by and I think we need to get back to that kind of thing to, to be able to give, offer the future generations something, some values.

Yeah.

And I think that’s very important.

Do you remember your first day at school in the UK?

Yes, I remember going to the school and as I said it was, erm…you had to take a bus to go to the school. You go to the school, your completely in new environment, em…

Was this in Luton?

It was in Luton, and er… you know and you try and get into the system, and er…should of, OK, the syllabus were different…

Mm-hmm.

…and you’rE just trying to make it with the same time you had this thing at the back of your mind that, OK, I need to be in school because I’m not sixteen.

Yeah.

But, it wasn’t, something that I enjoyed.

Yeah.

Because there were, many pressing things that you needed to get on with…

Yeah.

…Of like feeding the stomach.

Yeah.

So you wonder, what do you do, and you were not even aware of whether you can claim this or claim this and claim that kind of benefits we just went xxx, you know just did what you could.

So you were kind of looking forward towards to working?

We, ya, because of I knew, that er, you know we had to work, because otherwise how as a family, we would disintegrate. So you had more of it, not towards, me as such, but you look at it as ‘we’.

Mm.

And there was no ‘I’, ‘me’ and ‘mine’. It was everything was ‘we’. You see so, it was the group as, you know, a family we did that and er… ya, it was amazing going to school, even the first day at work er… going and finding a job and er…

How did you find that, how did find the job?

We basically, somebody in the school knew and I just turned up one day and asked them for a job so they said yeah you can do cleaning, I said ‘yeah OK fine’, cleaning so be it, you know sweeping the, the shop floor and things like that. So yeah, take it on. I did it. um…and then as you grow, you know, you stand stacking the shelves and you’re stacking the shelves then you’re stacking and do it, you know selling department, you were looking after that. So, but it was fun, erm… in trying to understand because that gave me insight into working hard. You understood the values of working, but at the same time you had to keep your ethics. You, you had to have some principles in life. To be able to, to do that. And of course there was no Sunday opening which was great, because it gave time to…to think about and be with the family as a whole, and planning things.

Yeah. What was the area like in Luton? When you first arrived arrived, where there a lot of other Ugandan Asian families in that area?

No I think er… majority of the Asians are… of course, some came to London because as a capital and a lot of things, so depending on where, if there were relatives where you lived. A lot of them went to Leicester.

Yeah.

A lot of the community went to Leicester. Again, because of the relatives, but also, Leicester being a textile place. So a lot of these Ugandan Asians, they all knew how to stitch up, so they all went for that. And there was XXXX imperial typewriters…

OK.

The olden typewriters, so yeah, they were, they were recruiting and expanding and all of those things get jobs, there were certain amount of community that went into businesses, created shops and things like that. Yeah, so…Leicester, then Birmingham also because of the, you know, huge Sikh community.

Yeah.

So some went there as well. And then some went as far as Scotland.

OK.

So depending on what they were looking, what kind of job, so some did, and I said we were blessed that OK we had relatives.

Did you ever experience any, kind of negative experiences when you were living in Luton? Or any incidents of racism, or prejudice?

No, not at such, as I told you. Erm… you could notice of it because of trying to you going for a job whereas as somebody else who has you know, lived, born this country were also looking for a job. So you do, you did notice resentment. But, as I said I never took that resented, resentment as a negative or bad thing. I said ok, they are right to make that resentment. But that means that I will have to make myself always better than them, to be able to succeed.

OK.

I knew, that that is there, so…but I cannot say ‘hey, you are discriminating against me’ cos I wasn’t in that game, I just said ‘no, OK fine’, I can’t get a job there then fine but I need to find a job.

Yeah.

So whatever it was. It was not, to us…it was like you have to get a job. There was no description that I have to this job.

Yeah.

Whatever came along, you took it and you moved on.

OK

So It was a job, it wasn’t you know, rather than…

A career or anything?

So that, that was our first working experience.

And your fam…your, you said your siblings and your brothers and sisters, did they all follow the same sort of route. I know you explained earlier about, you know, they’ve alone to difference areas, did they all have the same work ethic?

Yes, I think they did. But they were much, they were younger so….I mean, they were twelve, they were ten, eight and five or six years of age. So yeah, so they, they knew that we’re in a different place. We, they knew that we have to make within that, one breadwinner. Mum was earning five pounds or eight pounds something like that a week.

This is where she was working in er…

In one of those tailors, you know the infant…er clothes making company.

OK, and what was your dad doing then?

He was in, in in in…

Same?

Yeah, but he was in a different er…company.

OK.

He was in a different company, doing same kind of tailoring work. Stitching and things like that. But the fact was that, as I said to you. We, I had to grow up very quickly…because the responsibilities, because of, you knowing my dad’s health…and then thinking that OK, maybe one day, he may not be able to work and then what?

Mm.

So I had to grow up very quickly.

What there any time where you felt, you wish you was back in Uganda straight away?

No, erm…I, for me, no it didn’t cross like that but for my father yes because he suddenly came here and said ‘why do I have to wear an overcoat’?

[Laughs]

‘Why do I have to do this? Why this? Why this’? So there was a lot of this kind of resentment because Uganda, whatever was said and done, it was…you know, you had little but you were happy.

Yeah.

I mean, you truly were happy…today you have everything but you’re not happy because you’re still in…search for more.

Yeah, I agree.

So there was more contentment, in, in the earnings in Uganda.

What about your mum, how did she find the, em… when she came to UK. You said your dad didn’t like the weather…

She didn’t like the weather, of course getting lost and all of that, but then, after a while then she got use to it. But, er her…experience of falling down in the snow and having a cracked spine, erm, so things like that are there. But yeah, I mean she was fine she…was great I mean, they just, you know, parents decided yes we have to make ends meet and move on. We just cannot complain about it.

Yeah. Did you find anything culturally difficult, when you came as a teenager? You see the other young, English teenagers, same age as you?

Yeah, because er… culturally they’re different. We were very, sort of, er…family orientated. We were all as I told you, there was no such thing as ‘oh right, now you’re sixteen get out of the house’ kind of attitude, we just lived with them. So yes, there were a lot of culture shocks, there was a lot of learning to be done.

Yeah.

And also, vice versa they needed to learn but they were all like… we know it all kind of thing, ok fine you know it all.

Going back to Uganda when you were talking about your experience in school…

Yeah.

What kind of things did you do out of school, when you wasn’t at school, or, perhaps helping your dad?

Here?

In Uganda…

In Uganda well basically you went, you went to school you came back, because you had a shop and that was just common, with all, because we were in a small place.

Yeah.

So it was common, that you go and stand in the shop, and you…

You help out.

XXXX that, and then you waited til close to have dinner together. Erm…but then you met few of the kids, there was no fear as such, I mean, pre-problems. You were roaming around free, there was no problem about somebody, or…you know having parents to drop you at school and pick up at school because of you know, snatchings and all these kind of things in this country now. But no, you didn’t have to worry at all, you just went and did what you had to do.

[TELEPHONE RINGS]

When you was talking about that incident, in the beginning about, being , being in that house and hearing the gunshots, em…did you, your parents left, decided to go the next day but before that. As soon as he did an announcement, what was the, the days like before? Before that experience?

We somehow believed that he can’t be serious…that Idi Amin doesn’t mean it and he’ll change the decision. But it, wasn’t to be.

Yeah.

So that was the first thing when you heard this thing, that maybe he’ll change and then the colours started to come out and then no no… this is not the place now.

Yeah.

Across the community there was a belief…

Yeah absolutely.

…that he’d change his mind?

Yeah.

And, do you, do you still remember any of the other families that came with you? Cos you got a plane straight, did you get a plane straight from Kampala to… to Britain?

Yeah, no… they, the airport is at a place called Entebbe

OK.

So you had to drive erm buses to… you know, to take us there so you went from Kampala to Entebbe and then boarded the aircraft.

Do you remember the first day at Greenham?

Yes, the first day that we were taken, I mean we were very tired because we came and tried to find the luggage. Trying to find XXXX you know, nothing came. So you just hopped on the bus, and you didn’t know where you were going and you were tired. And er….what do you do, you just rest and, when you got there then suddenly it dawns on you that, my god, this is different.

Yeah.

I have to make it, happen.

How long did you stay in the camp?

We were there for about… fifteen days.

OK. And then, then you relocated to er…

Relocated to London, and from London to…to Luton. XXXX into my uncle’s place in Finchley…

Yeah.

…and from there my dad found a job in Luton, then…he found a place to live XXXX.

Was you, was it your uncles house or was it er…

Yes, yes.

…with his family, aswell?

Yes.

[TELEPHONE RINGS].

So shortly afterwards and then you, your dad got XXXX.

Yeah once he got a job, got a place to live XXXX.

So, after you finished your job in Tesco, you started to work in Natwest.

[LAUGHS].

Yeah, finished Tesco come back to Natwest then the Bureau de Change so it was like three jobs a day. So you were doing a cycle.

Where you working seven days a week?

Er…almost, yes. Almost. Because initially there was no Sundays.

Mm-hmm.

So you didn’t XXXX…

So half day only?

Yeah, so then, well it became longer then we worked longer.

Yeah.

Have you ever been back to Uganda?

I’ve been to Uganda yes, I’ve been back to Uganda…I think its thriving, there’s a lot of opportunities now with oil they found as well…

Yeah.

…in Uganda, so yes there are opportunities. But with the opportunities and having lived here I would like to see that hopefully, that this oil doesn’t make people…er…become egoist.

Mm-hmm.

I hope they’ve learned from the lessons of Nigeria, I hope the le…the lessons that are happening in other countries. And, try and use that oil wealth to better the life of, common. It is the common, and how do we get to the common and how do we make sure, I think that’s for the governments to decide. But, if they ignore the common and they just become one big party, then it is going to be a problem.

Yeah. When, what year did you first go back to Uganda?

Eight-y….eighty-six, eighty eighty eight.

Eighty eight.

Nineteen eighty eight.

Did you go alone or did you go with your family?

No no no my family hasn’t been. I went alone for work.

And after that you just went back regularly or…years?

Yeah I went back because I was in Banking so there were customers there, so I went to Uganda, Kenya Tanzania, South Africa.

Do you ever go back to your home town?

Not been able to go my sister went to see it…

Yeah.

Er…last, no, two years back. She went. She went to see it, she wanted to see what was happening but…

What did she say?

No, she, she obviously, she was very young she couldn’t remember but um…yeah, when it came to the house she remembered the house. She remembered how the house looked…

Yeah.

And um, what it looks like now. So XXXX.

It’s still there?

It’s still there, but its er…completely run down.

Yeah.

Have you got any visits planned soon?

I would like to go next year, er definitely to Uganda. To see what can be done.

Mm-hmm.

Erm….I’d like to make it a win-win situation for Uganda as well, so let’s see, whether you’ll…

So you go back, and work, and, and kind of invest?

Yes, we looking to…before that I was in private banking. So you’ll looking at wealthy to give money to the black XXXX and others to invest. So that was one side of it. Em...but as I said, do I go for holiday, no and when I went there I asked, enquired to go back to the birthplace and they said ‘no, it’s not worth it’.

Who said ‘it’s not worth it’?

My uncle…

Your uncle…

Who is there in Uganda, so he said don’t take chances. Because there's still, er…when Idi Amin overthrew Obote, then Obote came back again…so you see there is resistance…between those two. And that resistance is still not resolved. So they still, want to fight.

Yeah. Do, do you remember em…the way in which the Ugandan Asian and the black Ugandan there, how they got along?

The Asians and Ugandans?

Mm.

I think predominantly, I think if you look majority of the, the Africans that were working for you.

Mm-hmm.

They had highest regards.

Yeah.

They had no, no issue and they didn’t want to let us go.

Yeah.

Because they knew what would happen to the economy. Suppose you would left the key in the shop and it’s fully loaded, it’s got material, everything there.

Mm-hmm.

But if they guy…whoever finds the shop, open, because we just left

Yeah.

And unless he has some substance in him to change and redecorate the place and things like that, there’s nothing going to happen.

Yeah. Did your father lose everything he had in Uganda at the point?

Yes.

Because I hear that XXXX, yeah…

Because we left. We just left, the shop open.

Did he, did he ever have plans to go back to Uganda?

He wanted to go back to Uganda just to see.

Yeah.

But it didn’t happen. It didn’t happen. Er…because what has happened is two folded. Once you’re not feeling so good and that, and then you want to go then you think ‘OK, it’s a third world country, if I go there, I fall sick then what will happen?’ that’s number one. Secondly, ‘even if I go back, at the moment he had fond memories of the house, because it was his house, visualise, said wow this is the house we lived.

Yeah.

But now, after so many years, and whatever now you’ve got the people from Congo, there…who are willing to take up and rent.

Mm-hmm.

So then you start wondering, you know...

Yeah.

What, how, how would you want the, you know, because it’s the fortieth anniversary, this year.

Yeah.

How do you, how do you think it should be celebrated?

What do we do, OK. We as you saw the… Parliament, that did it. We had er…multi faith service…

Yeah.

…which has been planned. What, we, as a committee one of the things that we were looking, is to try and do an event where we can get the first generation that actually came here.

Mm-hmm.

What happened is that every community got scattered. People went to different places. So, suppose we picked a town in Uganda and said all the people that lived, cos that was small places. Uganda was very tiny as a country anyway. So you had, er, different towns, so we’d start XXXX suppose we had picked a town and then, people from…all people from that town, it will be so good see how they use to know each other and then suddenly they’ve lost contact. It’ll be good for second, third generation also to understand, because the third generation do not like to be called British Asians, XXXX sorry, er, Ugandan Asian, they like to be called British Asians.

OK.

They don’t want anything to do with it, because….

Is that something you’ve witnessed, er you know, amongst your family and…

Yes yes yes, even, even my kids OK they want to go, but will they call themselves no, they don’t. Are you Indian? Says ‘yeah’ but Indians because of you and because of granddad and all of that. We are OK, but Ugandan? No. Because we, er… educated there, or… did businesses there, we were born there, so we still feel connected to that motherland…

Yeah.

…in that way. That yes, there is and that’s why I, I still try and do some charity work in Uganda and things like that, ya, for sure.

So, you still, you see yourself as Ugandan Asian.

I do, I do because I believe that, you know, my thing is in a different way. That ok, we were fortunate that British took us.

Mm-hmm.

But there were a lot of Ugandans, who were, who were died, xxx because Idi Amin went for them as well because they were trying to protect the Asians.

Yeah.

So, what happened to them? What happened to their family? We were fortunate, that somebody took care us. What about that? So…the idea is to think because once we do fundraising whatever money comes in, what can we do for those Ugandan Ugandans…

Yeah.

Who were left behind. And who lost…their, dear ones or whatever. What can we do to help them? That’s one for the things, that is on mind as well. That we need to do. there was a point in time when we were thinking that we should have an archive of…experiences, of er… things that we could learn from Uganda.

Mm-hmm.

And, leave it as an archive so that somebody, whoever wants to look at a reference it’s there.

Yeah.

But…let’s see. I mean it all depends on money.

Yeah.

How much we raise, and we what we can do. We wanted to do a musical programme again, one was trying to bring, do something in one of the parks.

Mm-hmm.

So that can everybody can come on a summer day and er…

A big event?

…yeah, meet people, that’s one of them. The second one was er…cultural event in Royal Albert Hall or wherever.

Mm-hmm.

Er, for that matter of musical evening…er…and try and keep the ticket as minimum as possible so that everybody can participate and come.

Yeah.

And we were hoping to, now hoping to do one in London and one in Leicester. So that people up north can, come and join the Leicester event. And of course, the, most welcome to join both.

Yeah.

..but that’s the way we see it.

Is this part of the parliamentary group?

The XXXX forty no, this is the…the…fortieth anniversary Uganda, group.

OK.

Its specifically for this celebrations, what do we do, how do we go about it.

So, how how would you, how would you, what else do you think that, not what you can do, but as kind of…more reflective perhaps of, British society, how do you think the…the experience of Ugandan Asian should be remembered? So you can talk about activities, but also, you know…the, the experience of coming as refugees, being expelled by Idi Amin, and… er now you’ve been here for forty years, you know. Stories are slowly coming out now, you know, through projects that commemorating…

Ya, absolutely. Em…

[AMBULANCE SIRENS]

We…tried and see…er…because a lot of the first generation now are very elderly.

Mm-hmm.

I mean if we XXXX assuming we are forty years in this country now, then when some of those of guys came when they were forty.

Yeah.

And, some of those guys came when they were thirty. So…you know, lot of time has gone by like my father…you know, he’s seventy six XXXX. So what do you do? So a lot of those have either passed away, some of them

Mm-hmm.

Some of them are very elderly, probably got ailments, er…so all of this so we felt that OK, let’s bring, try and make it so that it’s not full of speeches and XXXX big dinners..

Yeah.

But let them come and mingle and talk. Let it be a time to reconcile, or…try to XXXX.

XXXX.

Now that’s the way we do it. There was also talk of trying to do something at Stansted airport, because that’s where majority of the flights came. But em…again, er, alright that’ll be nice but then, only…er, it will make some effect to you if you were from Uganda and you landed, then you look at it. Um…is it money well spent? Or is better to do something for people that actually suffered, because …now also some of the Ugandan, I mean it’s not all good stories. There are certain people who felt that ‘no no no I would wish I was never here because the kids grew up, and they got married, then their attitudes changed, westernisation came into their life’ er, the…looking after parents was natural in Uganda.

Yeah.

It’s not so natural now.

Yeah.

Of course according to our customs yes but…

[LAUGHS]

You see what I’m saying?

Yeah.

So, that kind of tails, from the, first generation is there. That ‘no no no no no this country’ initially when they came it was good.

Mm.

Because the kids were young and they were listening.

Yeah. [LAUGHS].

Er… so things have changed… in, in that way so what are they… you know, would they want to go back…and course their not because they…

Yeah.

…elderly, and they probably have…hospital requirements and all sorts of things, so no, they wouldn’t want to go back to Uganda as such. But, they do remember in Uganda ‘look how it was, I looked after my parents, I looked after my uncles, we as uncles, six brothers living together in one house and…now...’

The golden times…kind of?

That’s it.

So, things have moved on, so yes…there are, that kind of stories that are there as well.

Yeah, and even you were kind of se- second generation when you came here, you know, your children…

Ah, they will be very different in their mindset.

Yeah.

Their…

Do they understand your experiences, do you talk to them about…

Yeah we’ve talked, we talked about it, they’ve seen the documentaries and everything…but em, again, as I said…the…the experience, and this is being philosophical, each experience of each individual is different.

Yeah.

And, it’s very difficult…sometimes to, put in words that experience only you can feel that yourself.

Of course.

…and and er…and that’s what it is, and, as I said in my case, I have, really tried to integrate with community, by getting involved in…a lot of charities here in this country, which benefits this country. Of course, also the other way round helping country, you know some overseas India, Uganda, things like that. Erm…and also trying to do, as much as possible, to…to make life, better, not just for myself, but also for others. As a way of giving.

Yeah.

And hence I do mentoring, I do, you know, trustee of many charities and…guide the charities because you are a road, bridge builder, so you build the bridge for people to communicate to try and see how the charities can work together. And ideas to inspire.

Yeah.

And move on you see.

Is that, is that philosophy something you, you, you got when you came, when you arrived here, or something that perhaps your father might of… XXXX.

It is, something that I think…again, er, what I believe is that…in my case, I just looked at it that ‘OK’, my father wasn’t educated, so for me, I had to…make the move myself. I had to take the chances, and, and that, because…to my father, ‘oh working in a bank so you must be a life time job, you don’t have to worry about changing your job’.

Yeah.

You don’t have to worry about changing your job.

Yeah.

That kind of attitude, banks are safe kind of thing.

Yeah.

Em…but having in that, you know, that you can get hired and fired.

Yeah.

…as things evolved and changed, in this current society. So you had that.

Because of that experience with Idi Amin?

Yes.

…to keep it moving?

I had to keep moving, and … I send my brother off to, to US because there was that fear that OK, if ever something, because my father was ‘oh, something could happen in this country, we may be thrown out then where will we go?’

Yeah.

Where do we go? So he said ‘no. One of us, must, live away from UK.’ And we sent him to United States in 1984… as soon as he got…

Is this your youngest brother?

Yeah.

How old was he then, when he, when you sent him off?

Er…when he went to US, he… was eighteen. He finished his A-Levels and said he didn’t want to study any further.

Mm-hmm.

So.

But, just because of that, they way XXXX.

It was the mindset yes, that you know, it could happen.

Yeah. And he was happy to go?

He wasn’t happy to go but we had to….

[LAUGHS].

He’s the youngest…

Yes… and for mum it was a shock.

Yeah.

So but, we had to…er…reason with him, and…just do it. Not XXXX believed in nothing, but then there’s no such thing as never, because you don’t know.

Mm.

You truly don’t know what’s going to come. And I believe that this society is very tolerant, and they’ve accepted people gracefully then, I think it should continue. But er… time will tell.

OK, thank you.

Thank you.

I’ll just stop that now.

The End

Transcript not to be used without copyright

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Vinod Tailor

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: 17/12/2012

Language: English

Venue: Marylebone, London

Name of interviewer: Lwam Tesfay

Length of interview: 49:02

Transcribed by: Lwam Tesfay

Archive Ref: 2012_esch_UgAs_04

OK carry on…

OK carry on…

So I put, I, I arranged the job for my brother and…made sure that he got a job and then he started, to…put in his application. So then he took in…em, they had something called er, L - one visa’s which are for training purposes.

Mm-hmm.

And that he had language skills.

Yeah.

And because this particular guy was manufacturing garments. And most of his garments would come from India.

Yeah.

And he’d need somebody that could speak the language, so that’s how I, how he got in…a job.

Mm-hmm.

And secondly…he was able to give that, as a reason for trying to stay on.

Yeah.

…erm, and two man power and whatever, whatever… XXXX he had unique qualifications and he…

Is it speaking gu - Gujarati?

Yeah he speaks Guajarati, he speaks em, Hindi and…yeah.

Do you speak both of them as well?

I do, ya, I speak both them, I speak enough Japanese to get by…

[LAUGHS]

…because I work with a Japanese bank as well, so ya…

You’ve picked up a lot of languages…

That’s right. Swahili…a little bit, I mean it’s very, very rusty. Cos there’s….

And they speak er…in Uganda? What do they speak?

Swahili.

Swahili in Uganda?

Yes

OK.

But then you and em, each state, or each county had their own language.

Mm-hmm.

…as well, so but, I can’t speak that because I, I don’t think there was enough practice xxx you can meet some Ugandans or meet some Kenyans, they all speak…

Yeah.

...little bit of Tanzania’s they speak Swahili.

Did you have any other relatives, um…else…that scattered after, after , after the…ex- expulsion did they go anywhere else? You‘re immediate family obviously went to UK.

We came to UK. Some of my maternal uncles went to Canada… one XXXX to Australia.

Mm-hmm. Did they, so they didn’t have British passports, British citizen…

They did, but I think there was also po - potential that they would be taken.

Mm-hmm.

So…in my case of my uncle, his brother, was in Canada so he said OK why do you have to, you know why don’t you come to Canada?

Yeah.

And there were, er, saying that OK we’ll two thousand or we’ll take one thousand or we’ll take five hundred people.

Yeah.

So…And US wanted only qualified people.

OK.

Er…Australia was similar. So…whoever could get. I mean, and those that completely, were stateless.

Mm-hmm.

Well they’d never knew whether they belonged here of there. They went to places like Malta.

Really.

Yeah. Malta, Denmark.

Scandinavia, Sweden perhaps?

Ya. Ya, ya, ya. So there is a Diaspora in Sweden.

Yeah. Not as big as UK?

No. I think UK by far the largest, I mean in…. in any terms XXXX. If you look at anybody, I think you’ll find that UK probably holds the most.

Mm.

Because, again, the reason for that is that, even if you looked to Africa, so the French, West Africa, were the francophone countries and then the English speaking. So all the people with English speaking find it easier because they can communicate.

Yeah.

And then when you come here…you’ve got that little bit of…

And you got that, you know, advantage, you got that support, you got medical support. That’s what I’m saying to you, so this country truly, truly, does give care…and they do want to give, you know, make sure that you have the opportunities to do the best that you possibly can.

Yeah.

So there’s plenty.

[LAUGHS]. Thank you.

The End

Transcript not to be used without copyright

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Vinod Tailor

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: 17/12/2012

Language: English

Venue: Marylebone, London

Name of interviewer: Lwam Tesfay

Length of interview: 03:27

Transcribed by: Lwam Tesfay

Archive Ref: 2012_esch_UgAs_04b

2012_esch_UgAs_05

2012_esch_UgAs_05

Well I’m just going to do a test. Em… can you just give me your full name and can you spell it for me if that’s OK.

OK. So, my full name is Vishva , V-I-S-H-V-A. Em, my surname until a year ago was Samani, S-A-M-A-N-I, but is now Sodhi S-O-D-H-I.

That’s perfect, right we are good to go. I’m just gonna pop this, over here if that’s OK

XXXX biscuits .

Yes lets swap, thank you very much. Do you mind I bring that a little bit closer to me is that OK?

Yeah, yeah yeah yeah.

Thank you. XXXX. Perfect.

Should I move XXXX?

No that’s fine. Right. These things are great, however, em if you go over the decimal level it just really destroys the em, the quality. Em…that’s perfect. OK then, right. em, so we’ve obviously got your name. em, can we start off with more personal details, date of birth and place of birth if that’s OK.

Ya, OK, so, date of birth is three zero, zero eight, nineteen eighty three. Em, and I was born here in Harrow, north west London at Northwick Park Hospital.

OK. So you are very local! [LAUGHS]

Very local yeah.

So you obviously grew up yeah, in Harrow. And have you ever lived anywhere else, sort of across the country? Move for university or…?

Yes, yeah em, so I was born in Kenton.

Mhm.

Em, which Is part of Harrow. Em, and grew up in Harrow, went to school here, em and…when I was eighteen I went to Nottingham, university, for a few years but came back often, em, for weekends. Then…er, came to do postgraduate course in London, and then I have travelled quite a bit for work. Em, around the UK initially, then based myself overseas, em so have been on, and so really since, I’d say, post-university so from…actually I spent a year abroad during university aswell because it was a language degree so that year was spent abroad aswell and then there has been a lot of overseas travel really.

OK and em, you went to Nottingham what did you study at Nottingham?

Sorry, went on a roll there, [LAUGHS].

You’re my favourite kind of interviewee [LAUGHS].

Em, sorry what was the question?

What did you study at…

So Spanish and Portuguese.

Spanish and Portuguese. OK, and em, postgraduate you went to…

Broadcast Journalism.

Broadcast journalism and what em, institution was that…in?

The postgraduate?

Yeah.

At City University.

That was at City?

Yeah.

OK. That’s the boring bit lets rock and roll then. I’m going to ask you about your parents now cos obviously…

Mmm.

… why, I got in contact with you. Em…can you tell me, em, you’ve already mentioned your mum was born in Tanzania did you say?

Yeah.

And your Father?

So Father was em, born and…raised as far as I’m aware in Uganda, in Soroti.

Mhm. In Uganda…

XXXX.

In Soroti OK.

XXXX.

And em, again, I mean I will gage this from your dad when I ask but it’s always nice to listen to your perspective of your dad, obviously and his past. Em, can you tell me about his arrival in England, em… did he arrive with the first set of migrants in seventy two?

So my dad’s experience was a big difference to his siblings. His siblings experienced the kind of horror of the…of the, of being thrown out the country overnight. He…I know had come to England maybe anticipating that it was going to happen or something was going to happen the year before and em, I think had come here, to maybe try and settle , I don’t know find a home or something again, he’ll have to tell you the details of that cos he’s never…we’ve actually never really spoken about it . em, but I know that he had come here, and then, he had XXXX, and then the Ugandan Asians were being expelled and he was concerned how he was going to get his family out.

Mhm.

So again, you ‘ll have to ask him the details about what happened there but I know that he was here from nineteen seventy one onwards, em…

Mhm, mhm.

He had to go back for something and then come back so I know there was some sort of…

Yeah some sort of…backwards and forwards.

So he very much sort of, as the older son of his family, took, took a lot of responsibility for looking after family so it was very much his, I think he saw it as his responsibility to get the family out of…

Mhm.

Uganda safely.

Is that traditional…amongst sort of, your community that the elder sibling would normally take responsibility…

Mm… depends on what the older sibling is like.

I suppose.

If they’re capable.

Depends on what the older sibling is like aswell I suppose [LAUGHS].

I mean I wouldn’t say its unique to the Ugandan Asian community I’d say its, I think in a lot of families that can naturally quite happen. Em, but yes, that was very much the case the dynamic of our family, of growing up…

And you mentioned siblings, em…

Yes.

Your Father’s siblings did they all relocate here?

Yeah, so they’re here now so its himself, his younger sister, he has two younger sisters one of them is based in Leicester so she is someone who did leave and does have a bit of em, sort of, did have a bad experience directly but again I have never really spoken to her about it. Em…and then he’s got, a second younger sister and a younger brother both are in London. one younger sister is one in Stratford, em and she is probably the most open, and she’s the one I interviewed in the BBC Radio 4 documentary, em...and her and her husband in particular em, who she met at a refugee camp in Kent and got married, em…

What a wonderful story.

Yes! That’s why you should speak to her! [LAUGHS].

[LAUGHS].

And em, she’s probably the one between her and husband, my aunt and uncle they’re the ones of whom I’ve heard the most about the experiences of being Ugandan Asian in this country and the expulsion.

Again, I mean is that, is that do you think because cos she’s the youngest in the family. Do you think, or is it the nature of her persona…that she’s more open?

Er…yeah I think its probably that.

Mhm.

I think its more about her personality, em…and then a younger brother, em, who again, he’s mentally quite kind of, mentally childlike so…he talks about it as if it was horrible when I ask him but I mean, he…I probably wouldn’t interview him.

Yeah OK.

And obviously then my father’s mothers and my grandmothers who’s here aswell, who also left then but has virtually can’t really speak any English so I speak to her in broken gujarati and…

Mhm.

Yeah. But again but ive never really spoken to her, I’ve never really asked her…

Of course. It’s always the youngest kids, the youngest sibiling you have to keep your eye on I’ve noticed that.

[Laughs]. Speaking as the youngest.

Em, I mean…again, I’m, it might seem as a simplistic question or a question you don’t particularly want to answer, but it’s really just an opinion based question, I mean what, can you sort of perhaps, give me an idea if you could get into their heads and their experiences perhaps on their arrival perhaps, you’ve gone back to Uganda obviously aswell so you’ve had that perspective, I mean can you imagine some of the emotions they went through on arrival during the process of expulsion?

Em to be honest, not really I think what the, the Ugandan asian community seems to have done so well is…is, is not really made a big thing of it, and not really talked much about it. And…I really feel that most of peer group are quite blissfully ignorant of the challenges that their parents faced. There is some vague knowledge that my parents came her with very little, and…now live a comfortable life but I think what the Ugandan Asians have done, and again all of this is anecdotal and based on my impressions but em, is…they worked hard to, to build a sort of stable and secure em, life for their children. Their children are enjoying the fruits of that now.

Fruits of their labour.

Exactly, and therefore have no need to really question their parents struggle.

Mhm.

Em… so, I don’t really…so I say that I could quite easily come into that category, unless the parents are the type to openly talk about it, em…I’d say the vast majority, a lot of my peer groups whose parents are ugand…they’re not even sure if their parents are Ugandan they have to check. Cos even when I was looking into this subject I had to find out, I think my dad’s from uganda, they didn’t even know so that’s the level…so in terms of…had I contemplated how it was like for them I think the…you know having the kind of em, mindset of a journalist I did start to question it and I am naturally interested in the, in the topic, in the experience of migration. Em, but I think I’m quite unusual in that regard.

Yeah. So, I mean you would say there’s a certain amount of perhaps detachment from the experience of the parents to the second generation?

I wouldn’t even call it detachment I’d say there’s ignorance.

Just clear ignorance yeah. I mean, do you, would you, do you think that’s because, em the parents of the first generation have actually guarded their children away from this, do you think, or…?

Em…its difficult to say, I think theres, theres, there could be many reasons, I think there’s a real overwhelming sense of lets just get on with life, em…lets not dwell on the past, em…and I think theres that kind of natural sense of protectiveness for why burden the younger generation with that knowledge.

Its tough enough us going through the process, why then transmit it to some XXXX, somebody who hasn’t had to go through it.

Absolutely, and I also just think its not in the, the culture of the people to of… certainly of the gujratis that I know to talk about, you know talking about your feelings is kind of a modern way of, of doing things and I don’t think maybe traditionally, people didn’t really do that so much in the way that we do now, we have the kind of luxury of time and comfort to do that [LAUGHS] .

Yep ,and spoiled I think.

[BOTH LAUGH].

Em, so I think that’s maybe one aspect, em…and I also, I mean I know when I ask my parents, you know what was it like being here and em… I know that the feel very grateful and a lot of them feel very grateful for the…opportunity they had to come here, and like quite grateful to like the british government, and…so there isn’t a sense of like, why should we complain about this cos we were actually really lucky…

Yeah.

…I mean that I know that my dad’s certainly, is of that…

Mhm.

XXXX.

XXXX could have been a lot tougher in Uganda.

Well yeah.

Especially considering the climates when they left. Em…do you…I mean I’m gonna go back to obviously your story now, when you were growing up, I mean, you’ve kinda touched on this anyways cos you had to XXXX check your parents, sort of heritage, ethnic, cultural, national heritage, but I mean were you aware of your sort of unique sort of unique heritage when you were growing up? I mean, you know, i know you never went through this process and you were never really a refugee yourself but you’re still the child of a refugee…

Mm.

Did you ever feel that sense when you were growing up, or do you think because you said you’re parents guarded you away, did you notice it?

I think, I grew up in Northwest London where I think there’s a huge number, it’s a very multicultural em, area there are…I remember you know the school that I went to, em, which, I mean there were, it was, I wasn’t like the only Indian kid, I think now that school has a vast majority of [LAUGHS] gujaratis.

[LAUGHS] I’m from Wolverhampton.

[LAUGHS] So you know, so, em…I never felt em, like certainly those experiences which are quite typically of em, something that comes from immigrant family that weren’t there, so, so strong, em…in terms of any, any struggle, no, again I really feel that ive had that kind of experience where, my parents have given, have worked very hard to give me a very comfort-, incredibly comfortable upbringing in life and not really em, that any struggle that they’ve been through has just been what I’ve observed, maybe subsconsciously rather than openly discussed or talked about…

XXXX actively taught or seeking…

Exactly yeah, em so no, that, that wasn’t very visable. You know, there’s the occasional reference to ‘oh when we were in Uganda we use to get nice fresh fruit and you know, and use to climb trees’ and that’s when my brother and I would be a bit like ‘oh god here he goes again’ so that, and that was the literally the extent to it.

[LAUGHS]

And it was very kind of like, we didn’t know about uganda we didn’t really, It was on radar at all.

You don’t have a point of reference do you, I suppose?

No, exactly.

You haven’t been there before… its XXXX.

No, and I mean uganda isn’t really, if you’re really interested in international affairs then you know about uganda, but I think theres a lot of people who don’t really, and don’t really care much for it and isn’t on their radar. And I guess we were as kids, very much the same, there are certain, it would have been interesting to learn now that theres lots of language gujarati that we speak the type that we speak, has absorbed a lot of Swahili words and a lot of east African, em, words that I didn’t know so…in many ways that kind of influence of, uganda, of my fathers upbringing in uganda is there in a lot of things that we were saying and doing at home without us really even knowing.

Not perhaps aware of it completely.

And even the food, the type of vegetables.

Mhm.

I mean you probably already heard that already but yeah.

Well were setting up a reminiscence session , em reminiscence sessions that the plan, eventually in about three months em…im working with a girl called Yasmin at the em, she works at the national archives.

Oh ok.

And shes going through the different items I should use for reminiscence sessions, em music, garments, fruits…

Cassava is a good one.

Cassava’s yeah. Em, the little banana that im struggling to get apparently wood green…

Matoki?

Yeah.

[LAUGHS].

So if you know where I can pick up some of those.

[BOTH LAUGH].

OK so em, in terms of em…the Ugandan asian community or even sort of the Gujarati community would you say its quite a close knit community, growing up round here?

Yeah, I think so. Em, I think it works in networks so I think em, its not a formally represented thing but the Ugandan Asian community is my dad and the people he knows from his small town where he grew up. You know, there’d be often cases where we’d go Sainsbury’s and see someone from his village who he knew thirty years ago and that, that happened I remember that as a kid and we just find it so remarkable how em, you know our dad would meet someone that he went to primary school with you know, at the leisure centre or something you know, it was just, it was just. It just shows that how many of them I think, came here.

Completely.

Yeah. Em…and they all you know, many of them live in harrow, a lot of them have lived, have done incredibly well in business here. And live in em, in the prosperous areas of Northwood and XXXX in big homes you know, so they live a very comfortable life. They all lived down the same streets.

Mhm.

So, that’s….

There is that natural…I mean, from my experience in the US as I said earlier a lot of people criticise the Hispanic community for not learning English quick enough.

mm.

well sort of, to be honest, if you’re living on a street where nine tenths of the people are from the Dominican republic and you speak Spanish, you’re going to speak Spanish. [LAUGHS].

Mm.

I mean, so, I mean, there was still that sense, obviously there was twenty eight thousand seems that em, it seems pretty evenly split between Leicester and London, in terms of the arrivals.

Yeah.

Em, but there also seems to be that relocation as well afterwards, obviously a lot of people arrive XXXX straight to the resettlement camps.

Mm.

As you pointed out, refugee camps and then obviously to the next place but there also seems to be, more of a, a second sort of internal migration of Ugandan Asians from what I can tell.

Ok. I probably don’t know as much about that, I know that there’s em, there are some in Bristol.

Yeah.

Is that correct?

[LAUGHS]. I’ve spent many an hour poring through the census data.

[BOTH LAUGH].

Surprisingly Ugandan Asian isn’t actually a category on there [LAUGHS].

Oh, really yeah.

I’ve also realised that it would be have been alot easier to do this project in Leicester aswell. What can I say?

Yes. I...one of my father’s sisters lives in Leicester, married in Leicester and lives in Leicester so…yeah. You probably would find far more there, but I…I do think there are a lot in…in…north west London aswell.

Yeah, it seems to be the spot where they’re located.

Mm.

I was chatting to someone the other day, in an interview but she, wasn’t Ugandan Asian she was from Kenya, she lives on Ealing road and she said that em, a lot of em, the Ugandan Asians when they first left the resettlement camps, a lot of them were set up in north west London anyway but also across London, a lot of them got jobs in the airports.

Oh really?

So that’s why they congregated on this side.

Oh really, yeah?

Cos it was just, just closer to the airport.

The airport… I know that my dad then, spent his student days, or sort of like when he first , when he was trying to make something of himself, he lived in Wembley…

Mhm.

Aswell, on the high road with friends, and then, I mean he has some funny stories to tell I think about, cos he was trying to find work here, he hadn’t done, I mean today he’s an accountant, but today if you want to be an accountant you normally have to have done a degree, em he hadn’t done it and I think it was different in those days, but he was also trying to do a sort of em, any sort of business opportunity that he could find, so I think he became a wedding photographer, for a couple of months until he realised it was awful em…not wedding photographer, he’d try and arrange you know all of the wedding décor and everything…

Wedding planner…

Yeah, I think a one man band for everything basically

[LAUGHS].

Lots of like attempts of like…doing, doing things. XXXX.

Entreprenuial spirit.

Yeah, which I don’t think, I know that, whilst that is very characteristic, I don’t think he, he himself has opted for being…

OK.

… a professional and has done very well in that respect.

Yeah.

But em, not not as a business person.

Mhm.

So he did try the business thing.

Yeah.

But actually ended up being a much, happier, and he really craves that stability. Now, even so, my brother for example is, has, also trained as an accountant and worked in the same firm as my father for a long time, is now setting up his own business left a year ago, but my father had such a difficult time understanding how you could walk away from the potential from being a partner, a senior partner at a good firm…

A comfortable…

Comfortable, exactly, comfortable, good, professional job, why would you walk away from that to start your own…

Do you think that’s a fallout from being a refugee? And perhaps the…

Absolutely.

…turmoil of, being, forced to leave a place and perhaps not knowing where you’re going to go? And what the future held for you?

Yep. Exactly. I…really think, I think you can absolutely link the two.

And I don’t think that story is unique to your father really, amongst the Ugandan asian community. We’ll go onto that perhaps later, in terms of the success etcetera, em…in terms of, you mentioned your dad’s an accountant I mean, if we go back to Uganda… it seems like the Ugandan asian community were quite unique in terms the society there, and that seems to lead to the eventual problems aswell there, em…

mm.

they were very much the merchant XXXX class…

mm.

the entrepreneurial class…

yep.

And it seemed to fit quite uncomfortably…in terms, especially when Amin came in, and obviously took advantage of these tensions, but I mean, do you think there was tension before Amin over there. Or do you think it was something Amin, sort of played off, do you think there was a pre-existing tension.

So, my impression is only based on what I’ve heard from that generation who lived there, its not based on any direct experience but from what I understand, em…I don’t think there was any ever intergration, actually between, the…the sort of white, expats that lived there, the Asians who lived there, and the African community. They, they… did all operate, that’s just how life was there, they didn’t, its not like how it is in London or anything like that, I think everybody did, live very separately so there wasn’t that. What was your question?

Well, I mean do you think in terms of…

[BOTH LAUGH]

In terms of the…the merchant class I mean, that idea of being sort of being expelled and bringing that entreprenial spirit to Britain…

Yep.

Do you think that exisited because of that background and what, their existence was in Uganda.

Ok so they set up businesses here because they…

Mhm. Because that’s what…

Because they had done that there? No, I think that the reason you set up a business is when you haven’t got anything else, when you’re new to a land, you look for opportunity,

Of course.

You don’t necessarily need to have any.

Mhm.

Cos when the Indians first came, when the gujratis came in particular first came to…Uganda, they didn’t…they didn’t have any, they just saw what resources there were in the land that I can basically…exploit. It’s not a nice word, harness to earn a living, and so they spotted opportunities there so that’s more a function of the fact that I’ve come to a new place with nothing.

Yeah.

Em, I’m gonna…and I think to leave, to leave your home country, and your home country to do that for a start and home environment to go and do that for a start, you have to have a willingness to spot opportunities…

Of course.

… from where you are so I think the same thing, but I know that, sort of, our parents generation don’t really encourage entrepreneurial em, activity in our generation.

Well, it goes back to the point if your father and your brothers...

mmm.

its too risky, isn’t it?

Yeah.

And if you’ve got a comfortable set up, you’re part of a firm for example…

Yeah.

Then obvisouly Its, its safe, isn’t it.

Exactly. So you do it at, because you have to do it, because there’s nothing else you can do.

Of course.

Whereas, that’s not…now we start businesses our generation of businesses we are dissatisfied with being part of you know…

Perhaps too comfortable?

…the daily grind, well exactly its boring. [LAUGHS]. So em, so that, yeah, so I think its more, I think need drove the business flair.

As opposed to some sort of cultural norm, that they inherited…

I mean, I do actually think there’s an argument for that aswell, gujaratis are, business people even in the state of Gujarat at the moment, they are, I mean they are, Bombay for example is a city that’s full of gujarati’s and all of them own businesses and shops and products and that’s that’s what they do and any, even the state of Gujarat has grown a lot because of that, I do think that business here, they came here and they, my father can probably talk to you a lot more about this but he thinks that our culture now of having late openings and shops was actually kick started by the Ugandan Asians.

I …you certainly wouldn’t be the first person to say that.

Yeah.

The cornershop idea, the late opening, the Sunday opening, opening on Sundays…

Yeah.

Aswell, people do see it as driven by the Ugandan asian community.

Yeah. Which is then replicated by the supermarkets cos they were like…

Yeah.

Hang on if these guys are opening and we’re open, and that was something which, yeah, so…

Mhm.

and all of that is driven by, so I do think there is a kind of like, cultural, not cultural but there is this kind of instinct to..how can we XXXX opportunities….

Yeah.

To make money. Which is what an entrepreneur does.

Which was then enhanced by, the reality of…

Yeah.

Arriving with nothing.

Yeah.

As with anything its never that black and white, XXXX many reasons for XXXX.

But you can see trends.

Mhm.

You can see certain patterns.

Completely.

Em…that exist in that particular type of community. For example, you don’t find many gujratis in the army, they’re not just not those types of people that like to go out, earn lots of money, eat lots of food and enjoy it. Like, to be really crude about it.

Yeah.

Whereas people from , of, who are of Punjabi origin tend to be the types who, like the Indian army is full of them so… you know, you do get…

Yeah certainly.

…certain characteristics.

It’s a horrible perspective to have isn’t but, its… we’re talking about cultural norms here or about cultural stereotype but there’s also the argument that there’s no smoke without fire. You know… [LAUGHS].

Yeah…

It’s the reality sometimes. Em, I can certainly say that being from irish descent I know which members of my family are more inclined to drink.

Yeah [LAUGHS].

That’s defiantly irish. [LAUGHS]. Cultural stereotypes…boxed in. Em, in terms of your, I mean, we’ve kinda looked at this, in terms of your identity you are very much British.

mm.

you feel British. Can you tell me how you felt when you went back to Uganda for the documentary, was that the first time you…

No…

I say go back…?

No, yeah.

Was that first time you’ve gone?

I initially went actually, just because I wanted to break free from the newsroom to be honest and I had the opportunity to go with a friend, who’s English, but em, her father lived in Uganda, and we managed to get a grant so we thought which former commonwealth country should we go to and she had a strong desire to go Uganda so that was really the only reason. I had absolutely no desire to go there I don’t associate with, associate with it in anyway apart from vague em, knowledge that I had that my father had came from there. And literally it was that.

As you said earlier, you know…

Yeah.

The odd tit bit.

Yeah.

That odd anecdote that you heard your dad make reference to, but apart from that.

To which we would quickly…sort of you know,

LAUGHS

Say oh, quickly or god here we go again. So em, so actually it was really by chance and it was there when I saw. There is an Indian community there now and they are the few that went back who were invited back in the nineteen eighties, em, and I, that’s when I was amazed and I could suddenly visualise what was life like here. Actually its pretty good like, sunshine every day, amazing food.

Pearl of Africa is what it was always referred to wasn’t it?

What’s that?

The pearl of Africa.

Pearl of Africa, yeah exactly. Em, so…so that only then did that spark an intrigue with me to want to, to explore more, who is, what is this community, you know what was my dad’s life like? My families life like. So, it was there that I then I had the idea to do something and develop this idea of a documentary, so really unless I’d been there, I wouldn’t have, and then I returned to do the documentary.

Mhm, so…I mean…

Later.

It seems that it just awakened the sense…

Mhm.

…for you to find out more perhaps, not, well yeah your heritage suppose and your story.

Yeah.

Did you, find the answers to which you were looking for? In terms of…

Em…

…the process of making the documentary, the people you met, reflecting obviously speaking to your family members.

Mhm.

Who then perhaps told you things, as you say quite blissfully ignorant of in the past.

Yeah.

I mean do you think it has given you, a more in depth knowledge of your identity, and where you’re from?

Yeah. Absolutely it’s definitely given clarity on certain things, I definitely feel that I can take a much big picture view of, of me and my generation and the way we are, and the way we look at things and actually how we in some ways look at things a bit differently so…I think it definitely gave me that kind of, broader perspective, em, of seeing how, so many of the things I’ve been influenced by have been influenced by my parents , or like my father in particular who has, his life and his upbringing there that I’d previously not been aware of.

Mhm .So…was there em, did you feel any sort of perhaps, perhaps a sense of injustice, but did you picture yourself there, perhaps if the expulsion XXXX taken place cos the fact of the matter is you may have been born in Uganda, it could have been your home. Did you-

Yeah…I mean haven’t , I haven’t actually contemplated that to be honest erm, Uganda potentially having been my home…erm…y’know Uganda is such a peaceful country right now , in part, certainly in the south and the capital. I mean throughout the country right now there is peace and erm, it’s a-it’s a really safe country and you just- you can’t really imagine it, you just, you just, you just can’t. And I can see now how, any Indians over there are doing very well erm, I’m making a lot of money from business- I actually saw a lot of opportunity, I actually thought gosh [laughs] I could really live a good life-

Is this your entrepreneurial spirit?

Laughs.

Laughs.

I did, I mean I really, if there, if there, if…the people I was close to were willing to, to do that, I can, I can actually, I’d be quite happy to give it a go, living out there. Erm…

Have you told your husband this? [Laughs]

Yeah- he grew up in Nigeria so-

Okay, right.

-so he’s also growing up in, in the African continent, [yeah] it’s not something so alien to him. But yeah, I mean…yeah I mean, it made it much more real. Erm…how- I don’t know, what was the question again?

Yeah, that makes sense. [Laughs] In terms of erm, you mentioned the Asian community that lives [Mmm] you mentioned that only so many go back, not great numbers [yeah, no] but there was some invited by the- was it the President that replaced Amin?

Ye- well there was a few in between but yeah, Museveni is the current President , yeah.

So, erm, can you- it-it seems- has it gone back to XXXX? I mean are the Asian community there, Gujarati community of the merchant class again?

Mmm, yeah erm, I- so there are, there are also… now Ugandan business people there [clears throat] and also erm, I think Uganda’s moved on a lot, I think that people are quite keen to- Ugandan’s by nature are very- they’re a very good natured people and erm, I, y’know, it was a, it was a, it was Idi Amin who drove a lot of this, erm…I can’t imagine, I don’t think there are tensions bubbling under the surface now-

Yeah.

- I really don’t. I think people live quite happily together, erm [coughs], I think- sorry-

No, is it sensible only for the mistakes or is it just the world’s moved on, Uganda’s moved on [yeah], perhaps from that tension.

Yeah, I don’t think- I-I think everyone sees that it was not in the country’s best interests, for that to have happened. Erm, and no one would want that to happen again and I also feel that there’s not that many Asians there-I-I don’t know what it was like, but certainly how it was described- it-it- I don’t think it’s like that now.

Yeah.

I mean do you still have anywhere there are-there are in- there’s also now a massive influx of Indians from India [yeah] who are starting from much, much lower down-

From scratch.

Yeah. But the ones who’ve gone back, who were of that- the generation who’d already salvaged themselves there- are generally doing quite well there.

Mm-hm. And I mean- it seems that- I mean- in terms of s- you find that if a community’s segregated or a society’s segregated, as you described it would be [mmm] some of the British colonial powers-

Yeah.

-the Africans and also [yeah] the Gujarati Asians. I mean the reality is, when you do find there’s a sense of segregation… the i- the potential for scapegoating is always increased, isn’t it?

Yeah.

And also the numbers tend to be exaggerated because if you see a block of- if you walk down the street and the entire street is Ugandan Asian, then you sort of- you swell the numbers in your head. You think it’s really segregated and they’re getting bigger-

Yeah.

- so if they are more integrated and nowadays I can imagine there’s a potential obviously [yeah] XXXX there and it was, [yeah] you know what I mean? And of course if you have Amin to the equation, which is a quite unique, character in itself [yeah, yeah] I mean if you talk about some political populism, he sort of took it onto the next level-

Yeah [laughs].

He did! Completely mental [laughs].

Yeah.

Do you erm, in terms of erm, the story you got from Uganda [mmm], peoples’ perspectives, is there any remorse amongst the African community of what happened? The people you spoke to?

See I don’t think people themselves feel like they… they weren’t [to blame] Idi Amin’s decisions- yeah, so it wasn’t- it was sort of like- it wasn’t like they all kind of really like, erm, fought for the Ugandan- the, the Ugandan Asians to leave-

Yeah.

-erm I don’t get a sense of any- I mean I didn’t- as a, as an Asian walking around, interacting with the local people, I just felt like everybody was- like it really wasn’t an issue [mm-hm] and the past has really been put behind.

Yeah.

Erm…sorry just one thing I just really want to say actually about the really thing- the thing that really struck me is erm, I mean, so there’s an example of a guy called Sudhir Ruparelia who erm, was one of the ones who came in my Father’s generation, back here, and, and he, he was one of those who went back, when they were invited back and he owns probably, half of the country! Erm he…so he here was never really able to settle, he was a sort of taxi driver-

Okay.

-er m, again he lived in Kenton erm, and then- and never really- he never really got on with life here very well so he took the opportunity to go back and has, has just done remarkably well from a, from a business standpoint.

Mm-hm.

Erm, own hotels, banks, erm… created this massive resort which enabled Uganda to host the African Union meeting one-one year and y’know just so many- he’s-he’s-he’s-

Fingers in many pies.

What’s that?

Fingers in many-

Fingers in so many! I mean yeah, everybody knows him in Uganda- everybody knows his name, he’s quite notorious. Erm, but it just- I just had no idea that people- well here- previous to going out there, I had no idea that some had gone back and it- are doing things in a country you can never imagine doing in the UK.

Here, yeah.

Cos erm, it just- you know again, just creating- they just created so many opportunities for themselves I guess.

Mm-hm. It’s I mean it’s-it’s such a different arrival story, isn’t it, from an economic migrant [mmm] who had to- kinda been forced to XXXX-

Yeah.

-it’s- you know obviously it does change your motivation to succeed [yeah] or also it hampers your ability to succeed if you’re a refugee.

Yeah.

I mean, as an economic migrant, if you’re a different ethnicity, speak a different language, you pretty much start at the bottom anyway. If you’re a refugee, you’re even- you’re below the bottom.

Yeah, yeah.

[Laughs] You’re digging your way through the pit. Erm, in terms of…erm… the fortieth anniversary, which is obviously why we are doing this project [mmm], erm, I mean, how do you feel it should be celebrated? I mean we have discussed obviously off the recording device [mmm], about- there seems to be this fear of this gap of awareness [yeah] of the next generation.

Yeah.

I mean how do you think it should be celebrated and also how do think you can educate people of perhaps in your generation, or the generation beyond of this unique story?

Yeah. I mean I wonder how much interest there is cos I feel like this is- it’s a very…erm, I think the story of the Ugandan Asians is relevant to, the whole of Britain, if we look at how THE Ugandan Asians- what influence have they had on the way Britain functions and operates today. And so one example is what we discussed earlier, which was the all hours opening times- I don’t think many people know that that’s something that may have been quite heavily influenced by Ugandan Asians. So I think it would be really good to somehow generate awareness of what impact have Ugandan Asians as a community had on erm, things which are the norm today, in everyday life, in Britain. Cos that therefore makes it relevant to everyone.

Of course.

Erm, but I do think it’s really important to know where you come from, from, from a very specific- as a Ugandan Asian second generation. Mainly I see erm, a lot of frustration in my generation, people who are trapped in jobs that they don’t really enjoy and are too afraid to do anything different and I do think that, that this entrepreneurial streak – so this again, this is very much my belief, erm, that is inherent in Guajaratis and specifically those ones that migrated. I do think it’s in our blood to-to do that and to- we’ll feel much happier when we are expressing ourselves through doing business.

Mm-hm.

It was something where your- that I do think that- that’s where we feel fulfilled. I’m generalising hugely here.

Of course.

Erm, but and-and a lot of people who would like to- and I know they would like to- y’know they’re hitting their sort of- they’re in their late twenties, early thirties, and would love to do something but are- are too afraid.

Mm-hm.

Er, because they’ve had the sheltered upbringing, the comfort. So I think-

So, the double edge- it’s a bit sweet sort of aspect isn’t it?

Yeah.

That this comfort has been provided [yeah]. But at the same time that’s perhaps taken-

Yep.

-that sort of entrepreneurial aspect, or even that sort of-

Fearlessness to do something.

Yeah, to take risks.

Yeah, to take risks real- I really do think that. And what going to Uganda certainly helped me realise erm, [clears throat] was that the, the ones who were there, the ones who’ve gone back, they XXXX the younger generation- there’s very few- but the ones who’ve gone back there have tak- have gone out of their comfort zone, have done things which they never thought they’d be able to do. And are living more enriching and fulfilled lives as a result, rather than just having a conventional job in a bank here or whatever it may be. Y’know they’ve got a good degree, they’re p- training to do the right thing, the good thing that their parents may have-

What is expected of them.

Yeah, exactly yeah. Erm, bitter therefore. It-it opened my eyes to what’s possible and actually, y’know look at what my forefathers did and are capable of [yeah] and erm, could I potentially do the same. If I don’t know about that, if I didn’t even know that I’d come from that then I’d just think I'm the same as everyone else exactly. And there’s a remarkable strength of character that erm, runs in my blood, that I don’t know about- that kind of thing. So I think those are the things that erm, are beneficial and-and should be shared and that those are the things that would- are of relevance to the young generation, rather than just hearing about this constant struggle- we went through this, we went through that- cos that actually gets a bit tiresome as, as insensitive as that sounds.

Mm-hm.

We don’t constantly need to hear about it and no one really wants to go on about how- even the- them themselves-

What good does it actually do [exactly], I mean you have to be aware but it doesn’t have to be, y’know, such a massive facet of your identity [no] especially if you can use it in a negative construct as well.

I think so, yeah. Erm, I think, but I think it can serve- I-I know that for-for peers who I've spoken to, or who-who may have heard of that documentary- for them they really felt it opened their eyes and couldn’t know them- I didn’t-I’ve never really thought about what my parents went through, what they may have done in their previous [mmm]- what they went through to-to get to the stage where they’re at now. Erm, and, just that, yeah so it’s more of a kind of- yeah.

I think that’s, I mean, to be honest, that’s the sort of erm, disease of most us, our generation- it’s not necessarily- I mean the fact that your parents went through such a or-ordeal [mmm], such a process anyway, and then managed to sort of like, rise up from sort of the ashes [mmm-mmm] to start again- I think it’s more pre- I think it’s- not something specific to second generation Ugandan Asians [no] I think this is a problem with society- we never actually looked into our parents’ eyes and think well they did sort of d-

Absolutely.

Where did they come- how did they get to this point? What process did they go through? [Yeah] What battles did they fight? Erm, but I say is it more important perhaps as, you know as the second generation of a refugee group? Erm you’ve gone- I mean you’ve kind of touched on this and- these are the last two questions on the topic we’re going to talk about. Erm, yeah you’ve obviously gauged the reaction of your peers, [mmm] your peer groups, if you can generalise on the- what was it, was that- suddenly a re-awareness or something that happened that never happened- they never really think of or- what kind of reactions were there amongst your peer group?

I mean quite honestly, I think there is still- even if you tell a lot of people- a lot of people just aren’t interested unfortunately, I-I really feel that there are- I mean, so like my-my first cousin, her Mother is the one I interviewed in the documentary, who has been most open about her experiences- her and her- and- so my cousin’s Father- my aunts and uncles have been so op- they when asked can be very open and er, have the most amazing things to say about their experiences of the expulsion and being refuges here. But I know that my cousin has absolutely zero interest- she’s an intelligent girl, y’know she works for Barclay Card Enterprise [mmm] and they Enterprise division as, y’know, she’s- there’s nothing that- she’s not- it’s not that she’s not intelligent [mmm] but she has absolutely no interest.

She’s chosen to be ignorant on that subject.

Yeah, and-and I think that is- and I can’t and I- in that she’s the daughter so that’s-that’s her parents we’re talking [yeah] about. I mean I’m interested in their story- she’s not that interested in their story and I- I just think that there’s- I mean I don’t know what- I don’t really know why it is but there is, there is a lot of erm…apathy I guess is the right word. Erm, but among, amongst the ones who have delved a little bit, who have taken the time- I think it’s a matter of-of creating a mental space to want to know a bit about-

Of course.

-erm, that the ones who have, I think have been, have been quite deeply affected by it.

Mm-hm.

I know, so I know of this one set of siblings , which is the ones I mentioned to you- the Duwalas, who their parents I know had a lot of- were-were very nostalgic about their life in Uganda. Erm, really missed it, erm, and therefore they tried to- so that the eldest son, who’s maybe in his mid thirties now, has gone back to Uganda and has-has-has been setting up various businesses there. Erm, then followed by his younger sister, who’s in her mid twenties erm, who’s set up an organisation called Experience Uganda which is specifically like a tour operating company, to take expelled, erm, Ugandans back to visit their…yeah…

Really interesting concept.

Yeah, I mean it’s a bit niche, but- so I think it’s-

I don’t think [laughs] there’s that much potential to expand [laughs].

No, but erm it was a really good- so they did a couple of trips and actually she’s the one who I wanted to put you in touch with and I know she’s in London at the moment. Erm, her and her older brother I think are still based most of the time in Uganda but they’re in- they live in Watford, erm, so their parents also resettled, so the whole family actually went and resettled but now I know that the youngest sister missed London and the UK and hasn’t really found her feet there and has come back here now [okay], erm, so she’s definitely rooted herself back in the UK [mm-hm]. The parents after making this decision to go back and emigrate to Uganda again, also hasn’t really worked out for them, [really?] they’ve come back to Watford, yes, they’ve gone full circle.

What, I mean, what sort of- how long were they over here, obviously expelled in sort of early seventies,’72-

So they would have gone- they went at the time of the expulsion- ’72, and then, erm, stayed here until a couple of years ago [wow], so they’ve spent nearly forty years here-

It’s a large amount of time, isn’t it?

Yeah, it’s hard so that- and then they’ve gone back to try and- but they had such fond memories and clearly that’s influenced their kids to the extent that their eldest son was the one that drove the decision to go back.

Wow.

Their second daughter is the one who set up Experience Uganda and arranged a lot of these trips for- actually I should have put you in touch with her first she’s- [no problem] she’s the one who erm-

You told me about her now, she sounds like an amazing individual.

Yeah. XXXX so she’s the one who erm- and she’s very erm, linked in to where the Ugan- and I know has organised events in Leicester aswell and really got groups together and… I know it was a really emotional experience for the groups that she did get together to take over…

Mm-hm.

…to Uganda on tours.

Would love to be a fly on the wall in that situation [laughs].

Laughs.

Stopped at 0:41:17.8

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Vishva Samani

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: 12/01/2013

Language: English

Venue: Harrow-on-the-Hill, London

Name of interviewer: Greig Campbell

Length of interview: 53:54

Transcribed by: Lwam Tesfay

Archive Ref: 2013_esch_UgAs_05

Interview details

2013_esch_UgAs_017

The End

Transcript not to be used without copyright

Interview details

Name of interviewee:

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date:

Language: English

Venue:

Name of interviewer: Judith Garfield

Length of interview:

Transcribed by:

Archive Ref: 2013_esch_UgAs_017

2012_esch_UgAs_06

2012_esch_UgAs_06

I was there.

Yes, that’s fine now not a problem.

I left, I left…Uganda in, in, in June of nineteen seventy. To come er…and study in England. So I left in…oh in fact I arrived in England on the twenty fourth of June, er, nineteen seventy. I, after having done er, about eighteen months, um…in um…July nineteen seventy two, two years, in July nineteen seventy two, I had gone back for my first holiday. Having finished er, having taken my first exams, er…here and, so when, when the…when General Amin actually announced that er, the Asians, that he had the dream and the that the Asians should be expelled I was in fact, it was the day after I had arrived from Uganda again, from on my, on my, on my holiday.

So it’s your fault then, really? [LAUGHS].

[LAUGHS]. Er, er you could you say that. Um, so yes, I was there and then, then, er…I spent four weeks and I left er…in August. Um…which is probably about thirty odd days after, he had the dream and, and, and er…he had given ninety days for the Asians to leave.

Yeah.

So that’s, that’s really. So I did, exp- …although I left Aliya to come to study, I was there, when, when the…

The announcement.

… when, when the announcement was made and then, so I exp-, I experienced all the terror and all the, difficulties of fear and the difficulties, of, of, of leaving the country.

That’s, that’s perfect, I mean, I think that’s as valid as anybody XXXX. So that’s em, its perfect. What we’ll do then, em, what I’ll do is, they’re very open questions. If you, em, if you don’t wanna answer anything, if you find it too traumatic or you just, don’t have a perspective on it because you didn’t experience it, just tell me and we’ll move on to the next question.

OK.

Em, see, it’s all very simple, um. It shouldn’t take much longer than an hour as well, just under hopefully. Um, if you wanna stop, if you’re busy, just, we’ll end the interview it’s not a problem either.

OK.

OK. Right so um, this, it’s a bit boring the first couple of questions. It’s really about your personal details, so can you tell me your full name and could you possible spell it for me as well, is that OK?

OK. The name is Naresh, N-A-R-E-S-H. Second name is Samani, S-A-M-A-N-I.

Right. And what's your date of birth?

Twenty second of February nineteen forty nine.

And, where were you born?

I was born in Uganda, in a small place called er…Bukoboli. The nearest town to it was er, Bukoboli was basically, er, a place with about four houses, where…my grandparents, maternal grandparents use to live. And they had a business there, of er…er, dealing in er…er, jiggery, which is a by product of sugar.

Mm-hmm. [Clears throat].

Of sugar production. So I was born in Bukoboli, which is, as I said the nearest town to it was Uganda, um, and um…so that’s where I was born. Um…my father, it’s quite traditional in most Ugandan, or amongst Asians that er, the mother will go to her parents, to…deliver the baby. So that’s, that’s why I was born in Bukoboli although we use to live in a town, which was er, er…fairly, probably the…third, fourth largest town in, in the country. Which was called Soroti. Which was in the north part of the country.

Mm-hmm. I mean…it sounds like a very small place where you, you were born. You’ve mentioned there’s only four buildings, or four houses.

Only four, four, four houses yes.

Mm-hmm. So I mean um, can you perhaps describe um, what it was like growing up in, in that part of Uganda, as an Asian and, in such a small community as well.

Er, growing up, er sorry, the growing up part, most of my growing up actually happened in Soroti which was a larger town.

Larger town, yeah.

Larger meaning er, population of er, probably…no more than of er, fifteen hundred people. Er…and, the way the society was structured at the time er, you had er…er, er, three different tiers of society. You had those who were, civil servants, teachers, um…who…were a mixed, and people use to work in the government, which is civil servants.

Mm-hmm.

Where people, majority of those people would be of er…er…er…expatriates like er…from the… Uganda had been and was a colony of er, of er, England, or, or Britain. And um, so the civil service at the top level would be primarily of people of English descent.

Mm-hmm.

You also have, teachers, who will, would be a mixture of um, um…um, people of English descent. As well as er…er, Indian teachers who, not necessarily Indians born and brought up in Uganda, but expatriates from India.

From India yeah.

So that was one, er, tier of the society. The second tier of the society was primarily made up of, people who were in businesses. Businesses meaning, er…smaller business like er…retail outlets primarily, um… of differing types. Er, and, and though that tier of the society was primarily dominated by, the Ugandan Asians.

Mm-hmm.

Er, er, and the third tier of the society was er, the, er…the local population. The Africans. Who, er…if you, if one, one is to, divide the world, probably divide it into two, which were, er, people who would work in the, er…in the businesses being run by the, a… the Ugandan Asians.

OK.

As well as er, er, there were farmers. The em, the first tier of the society would probably live er, most of the time, live in er…in the better part of the town, where the housing… was, at, at… at, at a better level. The, business part of the society would live in the main town. Which in, in my case was a town which had three streets. Um…and, and er…most of the people would live behind their shops. Um… um, um, um, and, and, and, and, and, and that was the, um, society and that’s where I use to live because my father and his brothers were running, smaller businesses of textiles, and primarily retail business including tailoring.

Mm-hmm. And I mean, did you, you’ve mentioned sort of the three, sort of, aspects of society there the three different levels, um…I mean, did you…did you feel very different because of that. I mean, did you feel like you, you were in a more um…did you have an easier life compared to perhaps the Africans who were at the bottom, sort of, or...?

The truth of the matter is…now, looking with hindsight yes. We, we were er, er…in, in a…privileged…

Privileged.

…position, because although we were all, our parents were all er…er, er, er, most of our parents were in businesses. Um, they were self-employed people, em…they…were not necessarily highly educated, or in some cases not educated at all. This, this was the first generation that came over, from India, under the British er…rule in order to, um…making a living and, and participate in the, initially, er…the first wave…

XXXX.

…came through as, to build the railways.

Yeah.

Um. But, so as I said, looking with, looking at it with hindsight, yes I was in a privileged position. But at the time, it just didn’t seem any different that seemed to be the norm, and that’s how we use to er, just er, live.

Yeah, it was what it was.

It was, ya.

And um, do you think, um…um, lets, this is before Idi Amin, let’s say even before he came to power, um, let alone made the declaration, the notice of ninety days, um after that very strange dream that he had. Um…did you feel that there was a tension, between the three…or more importantly perhaps, you in the middle and also the Africans at the bottom. Was there any sense of tension, jealousy, rivalry…?

Yes, you mean certainly immediately aft…prior to independence, which was in nineteen sixty two, there was no tension. There was its as clear cut, everybody knew their er…their position in the society. Everybody was dependent on, on different parts of the society were dependent on the other part of the society to function properly. Um…so a, there was certainly not, on the, in the, am-amongst the Asians. Er, not tensions felt. We all just felt that this is normal and this how things will carry on.

Mm-hmm.

We never felt like er…they, that the civil servants, who, who lived in accommodation that was er…better than the population of where the business community lived.

Mm-hmm.

Er…but that was just, it just happened to be. It wasn’t a question, it, there was nothing to stop the business people, to move into er, that part of er…of the, um…in terms of residencies, but we didn’t because er, it seemed far more convenient to be living behind your business so that, you, you er…you would open your shop so, open your businesses in the morning. And at five thirty in evening normally, the business would be shut, and you are at home. You don’t, didn’t travel.

Yeah I’d much prefer a two minute commute to work than an hour and a half [laughs] every morning.

So, so, so, so let’s, lets XXXX…

Would you say perhaps that, people were aware of the difference, the difference, within society and economic privileged you had but it didn’t…

Yes.

…but it didn’t, there was perhaps a certain aspect of jealousy but not as true tension XXXX.

No, well, er, until such time as, certainly until such time as independence, which is nineteen sixty two.

Two.

No, there didn’t seem to be any tension. Er…and, and it’s a very fluid situation because everybody, even within, if you took different cores of the society, er, the three different er, sections. Within each section there would be differences at, at, at, er, er, er, er, of how well, to do financially, ah…how well to do in terms of family relationships, er, er. So within this, this same society there would be differences. There would be people be better off and people who would not be so better off.

More educated, less educated?

Yes. So, so no there wasn’t, certainly from, from the middle…if you like, middle class er, er, which we thought we were. Er, it didn’t seem that, that there was any great tension, or, there wasn’t any jealousy. It wasn’t a question of, there was jealously in terms of, if you had somebody driving a brand new car, you, you as a family would wonder why can we afford this?

Ah hum. But that’s human nature; it’s not specific to Uganda or…

Ya, ya, ya.

It happens outside today, in the street. No doubt.

Correct.

Um…and a lovely car you do have. [Laughs].

But when did, I mean, you, you mention this is obviously pre-dating Amin…

Yes.

I mean, when did, um, straight after British rule. When did the tension, or, when did it become more noticeable?

The, the, the tensions and the differences of opinion in the society really er, er, began…in, more or less immediately after the independence. And the reason why it happened like that is that um, at independence, er, er…was the time, when, um…the Asians were seen to be doing better at expense of the…er, local natives, or Africans. Um…and, and the political parties, there were two main political parties at the time. Er…U.P.C which stands for Uganda People’s Congress, and um…Democratic People’s Party, D.P.P. Er, and in order to, gain votes like everywhere else in the world, the parties would say things that they thought would appease the masses.

Populism.

Populism and, and, and, and, a d that is when things were said about, how the African who was er, mostly either working in, in, in, in Asian owned businesses, or…was a farmer could do better, could be running that, that business that the Asians run, and how the particular party if elected would make certain rules and regulations which, which would help them. That’s when the initial differences started. Until that time, there were…there weren’t any significant issues between the different communities. So, er the initial differences really, er, the, the, the main difficulties er….around er, around the time of election which was ninety XXXX.

So you’d, noticeably, they’d perhaps go up during, election time or when XXXX needed the vote. So I mean, would you say that um, so it is to me from what you’ve just said it’s clear that Amin didn’t event this tension, he pra… took it up a level, er played of it.

Yeah, I, I, I think that, that er…er, the tension had started well before Amin’s days. Amin, Amin came into power much later. Before that, there was…the, the, the, United People’s Congress party is the one that was elected which had made some of this announcements.

Mm-hmm.

Although they, er, when they came into power, they did not actually and not so many of the things that XXXX, right at the time of er…

He used it to get into power XXXX.

Yes, but, but over a period of time, em… it was generally seen as er, er, er…that er, that er, they wanted to help the Africans to be doing things that, er, Asians were doing and the people who were in the civil service were doing. So not necessarily…

But that doesn’t necessarily mean take it away from you though XXXX.

Correct, correct. So what happened is that, the civil service over a period of time em…em, was then by, by quo-, almost by quota system employing local Africans, um…um, and, and, and, and then…in order to help certain of the, the population to go into the business er, element of the society. Certain rules and regulations were passed, like, er, that Asian owned, not Asians and no, only, a local…er, African person could do business in certain areas. So after three streets that we had, the main street where the business was conducted, er Asians were not given licenses to trade. Everybody needed a license to trade so Asians would not be given a license and that was, that became an official policy.

Mm-hmm.

So Asians would trade in the other two, er, streets, and the main street would then be occupied by XXXX

Oh wow so I mean, quite an active form of segregation almost XXXX.

Oh yes, there was. From business point of view, there was. Er, unfortunately em….erm, erm, the Africans er…weren’t at that junction and this is a personal opinion. Weren’t quite ready to take on the business activity.

Yeah.

Because a, a, a, a, a any business activity er…to be undertaken requires certain level of er, certain calibre of ability,

Experience.

And I, I, I , I …I’m reticent to use word er, intelligence. I don’t think intelligence is an issue, it is, it was, is this a question of, er…business was engrained in the Asian community. Which would obviously be Africans would take a few, years to get, to, to, to, to, obtain the same level of XXXX.

Of course, and experience and get to know the processes of what I suppose, exchange and making money.

So what actually then happened is that the mains, the main street which was suppose to be the primary XXXX started dying down.

Laughs.

And the other two streets where, began doing much much better.

Did that annoy the authorities or…?

Well I think, I think that er, it must have but, but, I, I…I didn’t actually…there weren’t any specifically pronouncements XXXX.

XXXX.

Um… and I mean lets go back to, um…sort of your own family and the, the, Ugandan Asian community and the first XXXX I’d like to ask is did you ever think you’d leave? I mean, did you, was there every any ambition of your family perhaps to go to…

No.

… India…or…and elsewhere in East Africa?

N-Never I…never ever we, did we think er, even when I left in er, nineteen seventy to come to study to England, it was on the basis of…

Return.

…of er, wanting to return.

Mm-hmm...

What has basically happened is that er, the…the community Asians or the Indian community that had been brought, effectively brought over by the British to establish the railway lines and…

Yeah.

…the training centres, and as the Asians got, got em…perhaps better educated, they, they started moving to civil services. Um…I, I, um…none of those people ever thought that the, the, they would leave that was home. And, and, and, and, and us…in my case, I was born in, in, in the country. And my mother was born in the country in, in Uganda that is. And, and we er…we just er, when the, at the time of independence we were given a choice by the outgoing er, government which was er, run by er…the British government. Er…we were given a choice, er…that we could have opted to be either Ugandan nationals, or we could become British nationals under er, er… a particular type of citizenship which was called British Protected er, Citizenship.

Yeah.

And…in my case, er, we actually I opted to become a Ugandan citizen so I took a Ugandan passport after I was a Ugandan national.

It shows you never had the inclination.

n-never ya, never did it occur to us that we would actually go and live elsewhere, and make a home aswell. Always thought that the home would be…in, in Uganda.

In Uganda.

At that time.

Yeah of course.

And again, this, this would run through different strands of the society, even within the er…Asians there might, it is possible, I couldn’t say for sure…that there could have been, there could have been families that thought they will not live in Uganda they’ll be moving out. It never crossed anybody’s mind that living in the country would become dangerous.

Dangerous of course, and once it does, then obviously you’ll XXXX…

XXXX.

…which we’ll go onto. Um…this is really the last question on perhaps, before Amin and um, its proclamation, um…is…can you, perhaps, was the Ugandan Asian community quite a tight-knit community? I mean, did you celebrate, certain cultural or religious practices together?

Ya well, the, the, although one talks of Uganda Asian community within that community you obviously had different sections…

XXXX…

If you, if you had to take, there were Muslims, there were, Hindus…there were Christians.

Uhm hum.

Er, er, and er, er…er, er…so within the, society you had different, circles…

Yeah.

Who, who er…who had their own religious beliefs and who would do their own thing for example, Christians would go to church every Sunday morning…er, erm, er, the…Muslims er…er, er, and the last part was er, in my particular town, there was, there was a significant, um, minority of er, Ismailia who…would go to…their er, mosque on every Friday evening apart from other days. And the Hindus, we had our temple, and we would go to the temples. Er so, within, even within the, within the community there were different sections. but, um…was there any ever er…direct tension between different communities er, I certainly, until er…I left the country at the age of twenty one er, did not see any.

Mm-hmm.

Er, and, and, and, and it wasn’t a question of er…I, I, this sounds er, very much a cliché, I had Muslim friends but frankly, it just did not, did not work on that basis.

You didn’t think…

You had ya, you just had friends. Er…

After five people who do say fixed statements like that er… laughs

No it wasn’t a question of I got on very well XXXX it, it…we, we, we went to same schools. Er… we were taught by the same teachers.

Yeah.

Er, our values er…if you, if you put religious er…differences aside our values were the same.

Mm-hmm.

Er morals er…whether good or bad, were, a-at a very similar level.

Mm-hmm…And culture I suppose XXXX.

And culture, culturally we are, the back, background of, backdrop of the culture was really, very much Indian.

Yeah, yeah.

So…um, so yes, there were differences, there were different circles within the society and it wasn’t a question of them, one circle did not cross into the other.

Yeah.

And it wasn’t that we did not get together, so for example, we would go to, when there are religious, when the religious functions…different societies would go, go to the functions.

Ok.

Without any, without any hindrance.

So Diwali would be celebrated by XXXX

Ya, XXXX ya, Diwali or er…prob- more er…about things that come to mind is er, erm… Navratri, which is nine days of dancing, that Hindus do. And in that time, everybody would come into the temple, there wasn’t a question of these people cannot come and the other XXXX and vice versa. So, that’s really…there were differences but it did not exist in terms of er…er, different er…a-although there weren’t any clashes, along those lines.

In a negative context. And lets flip to the, perhaps the relationship than with, Ugandan, you have told me an overview of society. But how did that function on a day to day basis, did you go to school with em, African Ugandans?

Yes, we, well…the, my, that was again divided into two tiers. what happened is the first part of my education, from er…up to what we use to call J.S. two, which is er…O-level, ah not O-levels er…er, pr-prior to going into…secondary school, four years of secondary school which would take XXXX into O’levels. Er, there was a seven, from…you started school at a around six years of age. From six to…seven years, or thirteen and on thirteen you would take a particular exam, and if you passed that exam you would then move onto secondary school which was four years. So, the first part of my education was at a, a school called the, called the Government…Controlled Asian Primary school.

Laughs

That was the name XXXX

XXXX its very to different to St Thomas Moore.

[Laughs]

[Laughs]

So, so it, it was a school and it was primarly my primary school was er….no I would say not dominant and but actually…a, almost all the students were of er…Indian origin.

Ok

Er, so…that’s, that’s for the first seven years of my education. Em, when that finished, er…and then I went into school which was by this time time the country was independent, um...and the, this where the secondary school was er…run it was a government controlled school, and anybody who was able to pay or contribute fees would be able to attend, subject to having got the right grades. At that juncture, we had, we had… classes of senior one for example, it was for senior secondary schools or senior one, would have two classes of forty students each. And in my class we had er…er, er, a XXXX section of er, students and, and with that juncture we did, for the first time study with the Africans XXXX.

XXXX. And, and I mean you sort of obviously, mix with after school, play with them or…?

We would play the school time together, em…er, because the, the where the school use to work there is from eight o’clock to one o’clock you do the studying bit. Then…you go home er…four o’clock you go back to the school for sporting activities like…whichever sports you wanted to XXXX

XXXX

Yes. When, when, when it was a bit, bit, bit cooler er…so you’d, so then you would play with…with all the students. Which whatever their background, um…and when…. you finish at around six thirty before it was, six o’clock when it started really, getting dark you would then…head home er, and then you would go your own ways. And, and quite frankly…outside the schooling environment, no, not er…local African friends amongst XXXX there wasn’t a much of a cross, er, er, er, er, er, er, er…mixing between the two communities.

Ok

Em…which probably could lead to problems later XXXX

Yes, but I think primarily the main reason for that, was er…was the fact the Asians…who were in businesses tend, most of the Asians were of, of, of, a business background, they lived in the town, in, in, in town centre itself. The Africans who were XXXX they would live er, in the surrounding areas and there were farmers…primarily and, and, and people who, who work as servants in the household and the shops or whatever, once their job was done they would go back home, er…which is outside the town.

Yeah so it’d mean geographically quite XXXX

Geographically segregated…

I suppose also the reality is if you’re sort of father’s a farmer, or your dad’s working in a market, you’d probably go and help out with the family. You wouldn’t have to play with your friends…

Correct, correct.

…you’d be supporting your family in any way you could.

Correct.

Right, em, we’re gonna flick now to em, a certain Mr Amin [LAUGHS]. Who I’m sure you have an opinion of [LAUGHS]. I’m sure a lot of people do. [LAUGHS]. Um, its, I mean…your story’s a little bit different cos you’ve told me, I mean a very unique, one you were here then you were there and seem to coincide with your arriving, which is probably bit a unfortunate [LAUGHS]. You picked a bad time to go back [LAUGHS]. Can you describe your em…reaction, em, to…when you first heard em…Amin’s, proclamation…was it…

I, I was actually in a taxi er, having gone back, er, I was, I stayed a couple of days with my uncle in Kampala which is the…which is er, the main town and, which, to which I flew back. Um…having stayed a couple of days, then I was travelling, checking up to my parent’s town Soroti, which was er, erm two hundred miles from the main city. and the main mode of transport in those days use to be, er, taxis…taxis like er…XXXX, although I think the word taxi is not quite synonymous with taxis here.

Yeah I know.

Taxi would mean that you would have probably eight people sitting in the car with the luggage on the top and in, on the carrier.

Some chickens on the roof [laughs].

Chickens on the roof and also other stuff. So I, I was in, in the taxi as, as, we were heading down er, erm…and I, I remember distinctly um…I was between, just gone past a second largest town called Jinja, er, er when…the, on the radio this announcement was made. Quite frankly er, nobody believed it, er… within the taxi which had, Asians aswell as Africans as er, er, er, er, within the, within the car. Oh, everybody just thought um…

Amin talking…

Amin talking nonsense.

…Nonsense again. Em…

So…

He did have that kind of aspect, didn’t he; he had when, er…

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Almost like a comedy character XXXX….

Ya, he was buffoon character, and then he…

Yeah, a comedy villain XXXX…

And he played, he played to that. He…so initially, no…no, no, no impact whatsoever. Travelled, got home, first week, seven ten days, nothing seemed to have change. Um…but as, as, time went by…people started packing up selling their businesses, or selling their personal artefacts. Er, and starting thinking about moving on.

What was that as a reaction to, were there instances…?

There began to be instances where the…Africans would come around and surround, this is you are only here until such and such date, that I’m going to take this house this is mine. I want to do this with it, and that’s, that’s when it really started to dawn upon people that this is…

A reality.

…a reality.

And I suppose you were starting, to…it kind of empowered perhaps the African community.

It did and, and, and, and XXXX actually started XXXX army, er…outside the town so if you…outside my little town, if you wanted to travel out, you would have to go past a checkpoint. Er, this is, this is when it really started as, to seem, er…that, that things were…

Changing.

…for real.

Yeah.

And…

The minute Africans tend to do that I suppose, [laughs] 029.24.4

Yes. So, so er…the, yes, the, the things started changing after the announcement, people started baking, selling…er, er, and, and, and, started thinking about er…moving on. Um…those people who, um…and majority of the people had a British protection passport. Er, if not British, British nationality er…and of course I was in a predicament because I had a Ugandan passport but I had visa to study in England. Um…and we started as a family to worry about what would happen, if I wasn’t allowed to leave the country. So…about four weeks after the pronouncement, er, my father, my family thought it would be sensible for me to leave, if I was able to, er…and that was my four weeks er, worth of holidays was done and I, I, I was about to leave but er, you could see even then that er, travelling between towns was becoming difficult. Em, Africans…

The atmosphere had changed.

…the atmosphere had dramatically changed. Ya.

And um, after the announcement, I mean you said your reaction and XXXX was right, that he…Idi Amin again [laughs]. Played to perhaps, the populism and sort of acting a buffoon as you described him. Um, and then you’ve obviously mentioned that as such the army where settling checkpoints that’s when it got real.

Yeah.

Em…and I couldn’t completely imagine, how that…do you remember the moment you left. I mean, the actual moment of expulsion, that journey?

Well I wasn’t part of the expulsion, I, I, I…

Of course, sorry yeah.

I, just left a month…

Just before, yeah.

… just over two months before. I think the announcement was made in July…

Mm-hmm.

…he had given ninety days. Er, it took up to end of October, and I, I… left er…around middle of august.

Mm-hmm.

Now, I, distinctly remember it because I travelled that morning, from ‘SIDRETDEH’, er, er, from um…Soroti to go back to Kampala because the, there was only one airport. Which was Entebbe…

Were you thinking you were not gonna be allowed out? I mean…

Ah yes, absolutely. We…we thought it would be quite poss - it, it would…that it could happen. That when one presented passport at Entebbe airport they would say, er…you can’t leave you are a Ugandan national. Why are you going, or for whatever reason. That was one the second fear was that, the visa that was granted to me by the er…British government, er… there was a question mark whether they would say, sorry under the circumstances it is not a valid reason. So yes there was concern. Er but, um…it didn’t. Actually come to…

Fruition?

Fruition yeah.

Erm…so you’re obviously sitting at home, em…when I say home, England now. Erm, and the rest of your family are in Uganda. Em, can you describe to me sorta the feeling of, you know obviously, it’s not the technological age where you can chat to them on Facebook or Skype. As far as you were aware, there, in your small hamlet your town, I mean, where you concerned about their safety? Were you…incl-, did you have contact with them?

Oh I, no I didn’t have contact with them. Em…I had contact only via letters. Em…I em, I heard that er, and I read in the papers, local papers in the UK, that er…the Asians started moving out and that Britain er, was accepting er, the Asians. And they were coming in, er, and there were camps that were set up here.

Mm-hmm.

Em…so I expected my family to arrive but I did not know when they would arrive. Er, and I wasn’t on…a day to day contact with them.

Did you em, I mean…was the UK chosen by the rest of the family because of you?

Em…

Cos you know you started, obviously twenty eight thousand arrived in UK but you also had Canada took on quite a XXXX aswell…

Yeah. no, I, I, I don’t think of, I don’t think that er, my family came to…my parents and my er, siblings came to up because of me. I think that er, em…it was a given that would be better off, in terms of living standards, and, and, and in terms of being able to earn a living. Er, in UK as opposed to the other option, which was available, which would have been India.

Right.

Er, that’s, that was er…almost er…universally accepted phenomenon within the community.

Mm-hmm.

So I think that’s why they came. In…in my…particular case it wasn’t because of me. It might have helped and made er, made them make the decision but I don’t think it was specifically because of …

More sort of pragmatic, pragmatic…

More pragmatic.

…the prospects are better there…

Correct.

…than they are, elsewhere. Em…in terms of…erm…your, pa-, well the rest of your family, em, where, where did they arrive and when did they arrive?

They, they arrived towards the…middle of October, nineteen seventy two. Erm…and they were er…upon arrival they were er…placed because I did not have anywhere with those, for which to occupy them. I use to live in bedsit…

You’re a poor student… laughs

Yes. Er, so, um…they were er…placed at er, west morling RAF air base. So that’s where, they were taken, they then got in touch with me, and I made my way. Er…to go and see them in kent. Which was a xxxx.

Can you describe that moment when you saw them, when you walked in?

I, I, I was er… of course very happy to see them. Em…but…em, didn’t really think there had been any, in any danger so… er, there wasn’t any, any elation from the point of view of ‘ah, they are now safe…’

And alive.

Alive, ya. But, but I of course I was very happy to see them. Em…the er, but when I met with them and they told us of the stories and the things that had happened, then of course I was very happy that they had escaped without any serious er, difficulties.

And we’ll touch on that, again, I know this could be quite a sensitive topic, I mean, could you describe perhaps some of things…that, the rest of your family saw. Because what I, I was talking to your daughter about it, and she goes ‘oh yeah’, and it seems to me a lot of the atrocities that were occurred, in terms of under Amin, where...obviously projecting to the African people, themselves. And it seems almost, it’s an oversight, em…there wasn’t wide-scale shootings or rapes but there seems to be certain stories that did come out of the atrocities.

Yeah, yeah.

Can you tell me about it, if you don’t mind?

Yes er…the…if you put er, onto different scales…the first, the most obvious thing that happened to majority of the Asians was that er, in terms of their possessions and in terms of their wealth, they could not come out with much…

Fifty pounds.

Ya. Fifty pound allowance and, and the rest of the assets were all left behind. So from, financial perspective er…for people and the community that was doing very well, financially…all of a sudden they did not have the XXXX for which to support themselves.

And that affected everyone?

That effected, right, right across the board. So that’s the, the…from the financial perspective. In terms of security what happened was that there was quite a bit of harassment from the army, who…er, took things like any jewellery that anybody had. Any material possessions that they could lay their hands on…

Anything they could get.

Anything they could get they took. Er, but apart from the…largest cities, em…er, the Asian population wasn’t harassed much apart from being, looted of their wealth.

Mm-hmm.

But in the, couple of the largest cities, there were stories about er…women being, young, ladies being taken away. Em…and, sexually abused, er…that obvi-, it was the most…er, the, the, the, the, the, the most difficult part, to accept. Em…and in, in, in, in…in my case, for example I had er…friends, er…in one, one particular friend’s brother, his, he was abducted and he's never ever been seen since. Er…so there XXXX, very very few, em….in relation to the fact that there was about seventy thousand Asians being expelled.

Yeah.

Er…there were very few cases of that sort, but there were.

And, you know, one…case is a tragedy isn’t it…

Yeah.

…you don’t need hundreds of cases to make it anymore horrific for that individual or their family I suppose. And also the fear that probably spread amongst the rest of the community.

Yes. The…from that point of view, but quite frankly…the society that we live in today in, in two thousand and thirteen, those, almost seem, insignificant. There's a different er…moral code, er…running different societies, almost across the world.

Mm-hmm.

Er…kidnapping, bombings, wars, this sort of thing they did not exist at the time.

Yeah.

Or, or did not seem to exist at, exist at the time. So there were…xxxx although I said that, I suppose Northern Ireland was going on at the time wasn’t it.

Yeah.

So there were, quite a few…

I think…I mean perspect, my gran, my granddad was an Orangeman, member of the UVS actually and he fled to England. And then, I was chatting to this, about the XXXX, I really impressed with her, because she…there is this, I mean we’ll chat about this later, but there sodes seem to be this fear of this lost of knowledge about what happened to your generation amongst, the second and third generation Ugandan Asians and gujratis in Britain. And im really impressed with your daughter because she’s actually gone and re-embraced your story as well as her own heritage. Em…but I do think, the sort of, there's this perspective where we kind of forget, what went on in the back, the back, the past, certainly in Britain. I mean…I, I think also the big difference, what you sort of mentioned is er, the technology. Io mean if something happens now, a bombing, everyone knows about it.

Everyone knows about it.

Yeah, if something happens in Uganda, in a small town.. I mean, but when is that information eventually going to decipher to the rest of the world. If even, it sis….

Even if you have, ya

And it doesn’t make it any more or less horrific, it just makes it less XXXX I suppose [laughs].

Yes.

Em…so lets em, we now gonna sort of move on to your life…that you build in England, and er, perhaps even what your family did, but its more specifically…you. Em, I always ask what people first reactions of coming to England are, but yours wasn’t walking out of an airbase hanger was it, yours was coming here to go university.

Yeah, no…

Its still important, what was it like, I mean…

Well my, my impression was er…because our, our education… educational system in Uganda was er, all based in er, or based on the English system. We, our, our exams er… o’levels, A levels, universities, locally in Uganda were all based on, er, er…English standards.

Yeah.

Er…for example, our er…o-levels board was er, Cambridge, and oxford. Er…so same standards, same sort of educational levels.

So, I mean...education not much of a transition perhaps.

No, no almost none whatsoever…

Culturally?

Er culturally there was of course a great change, great change in the sense that em…er, was there a shock when I landed, no. only because, I had read er, er, quite a bit er, er about the society. Er, our teachers were er… my teachers for the six years of senior education, four years of o’levels and two years of a-levels. My teachers were er, er, almost without exceptional all English.

Ok.

Er…and, and, and, and…we use to read the most famous er…magazines that we use to read were dandy and beano.

Laughs.

So we…

So you knew about the bashry kids [laughs]

We had the background so, no there wasn’t that, that surprise. Er…and, er…

I suppose there was already a network of not necessarily Ugandan Asians but, Gujarati’s…

Yes there was. There was a network of Asians, I, I…er, when I arrived I went to live with a family in Wembley. Which was er…a Bengali family from India, but I stayed with them as their paying guest.

Mm-hmm.

For the first er… two years of my live in the UK. So, em…was I so shocked? No. was I, er, impressed? Yes. Was I er…xxxx with these civil organisations, and the way things worked here? Very much. Em…er, er, and…did I actually have any difficulties, why frankly, no in the sense that the society was quite broad minded and it accepted er…immigrants…or, all the students or whoever…relatively peacefully without any problems.

Mm-hmm.

So, from all those perspectives, er… arriving in UK was, fine. We read about er, in, in, in that era, there were er…youths, white youths…skinheads…

Skinheads

…who’d go round….

Enoch Powell’s friends.

…yeah, but, but the truth of the matter is, although we read about Enoch Powell, we heard about national front, and we saw what they did and we saw on, on, on, on the news we might see what, what they were doing on TV. Or we may have read and see photographs, personally… the fact that I did not frequent the areas…like pubs in the evenings, or, or…go to political rallies…

Football matches.

Foot, football ya, I mean my first football match I was, not until nineteen seventy….seven. seventy six. Er…so, we didn’t, I never personally got involved into any XXXX right the way through, not to date.

Do you think, em…it’s… a sort of thing, this is like off topic but XXXX manipulated by the press a lot of these. Cos there, there was a sense you had the race relations act passed in nineteen seventy one XXXX, and you also have the Kenya arrival…

No…

Which again it wasn’t forced, but it caused a certain reaction.

Yes.

Obviously, you had, as you mention, a certain Mr. Powell, who…actually, I’m from Wolverhampton. He’s…my house is actually his ward.

Yeah.

He’s the most confusing…to me, as someone who’s always worked with migrant groups. I’m an academic I XXXX PhD, as some, and I've looked at migrant issues and attitudes towards migrants. He to this day is the most divisive, confusing individual within Britain politics, history I’d say. Cos, he’s such a hypocrite [laughs] in many ways, you know. he spoke, two or three different languages, he lived in a number of different parts of the world. Er…he , was, in charge of the NHS and actually, actively, proactively went out and got foreign nurses into the country.

Hmm.

Em…and then suddenly, overnight decides to become the face of…sort of, right-wing agitation really [laughs].

Yes.

I think he was as much of a populist probably as a certain mr amin.

Well, ya… I think I would agree with that. And I think that er, that er, he obvisouly was a highly intelligent man. You don’t become a politician of that oratory power.

I wouldn’t go that far [laughs].

Laughs. XXXX.

Laughs

But yes, but, but er…I think predujice, in a different level…among different people, but even in the same... people of same ethnicity, exist.

Yeah.

That’s, that’s human nature.

I found it such a…its…it becomes excuse the pun, such a very black and white issue doesn’t it.

Yes.

Your either racist, or your not a racist its kinda well, [laughs]. Is that, is that clear cutted?

And…when I trained, er…to…when I was studying and I trained there about twenty eight of us, students and er…there might be , about of us where, non-english. There rest of them were English students and quite frankly, er…yes there were differences of opinions initially, when you went in. or a few day, a few weeks XXXX, we got to know each other and, and, and that was the end of any, any predujice, immediate predujice amongst ourselves. Whatever they might say that at home, whatever they might do outside…

Of course.

But on the whole, there wasn’t er…there wasn’t any direct er…discrimination that…I particularly faced. I can only speak from XXXX…

XXXX any, apart from the…the most celebrated I think, we’re not celebrating as infamous, as you as em…Leicester council there XXXX, there is an open letter to the Ugandan Times was it I think, and they actually said ‘we don’t want em…any Ugandan Asians arriving’. It think they, I think they’re glad they did arrive…

Laughs

Leicester XXXX [LAUGHS]. I don’t think leiceste rwould be the same place, or even a place [laughs] if you guys hadn’t arrived. And we’ll go into that later. Em…can you describe, I mean…you said, you’re siblings arrived with your em…other members of your family, can you describe the sort of help that the bristih government gave, em…I mean what was it…apart from the basic…

I took, I think whatever else is said about er…the immigration and, and the expulsion from Uganda. One think should never, ever be missed out, wherever it is said. The british government behaved impeccably, em…there not only….em…admitted the popolus here, knowing full well where this would put tremendous train on the er…on the utilities and the services and the…er, sochoolings and all of it. they…almost with open arms welcomed, the local people er…who we came across, and then in my family we came across in xxxx (WEST MORING?, behaved in…superb, superb manner. Fully supporting, em..and my er, parents stayed in the west mooring camp I think, its probably more than twelve, eighteen months.

Wow.

Er and then, the…there were xxxx a, a council house. a two bedroom council house in em, chatham kent.

Mm-hmm.

Em…and, and two throughout the process, the support was unblieable. Im not sure that today…we as a society, are…geared to be able to churn it out on the XXXX, on….on the same , at the same level.

Twenty eight thousand people overnight is just…

Overnight, XXXX

With no, with no, sort of informs, you didn’t, no notice at all, literally.

Ya. And er…beginning of the winter, end of October, beginning of the winter, for…popukation arriving from er… a xxxx country.

Slightly different climate {laughs}

So, so that has, should be stated, what4ver else you guys state in your books or…narratives, um…the English…er, whether you taking terms of the government, whether you take it in terms of the local population em… on the whole behaved, not only behaved, went out of their way to acoomodate…er, the…the Asians that were arriving.

And do you think that sort of appreciation, em…and still I ahvent spoken to any members of your community, but certainly, your gerneation who I have done it seems quite everyone is very appreciatative. Do you think that led to when…after a number of years, when amin did leave office, em…get ousted and f-fled to Saudi Arabia, and there was the opportunity to, go back. Do you think that led to the decision for many not to go back or would’ve think it was just been so long that Britain was now their homwe. Would you think some XXXX…

I think er…there was a mixture of both but primary, er…by the time Idi amin was off the scene, em…the, the majority of the people who had arrived had become quite established. And…started thinking UK as home, or England as home. Er…there was a generation, which are, probably the people who were in their forties who had arrived who perhaps never, ever really settled.

They’re in between aren’t they.

Ya, and they would, they would have loved to go but when they had, their children who were, schooling here and doing reasonably well. Er…there weren’t the issues of not being able to put er… or to… live to a decent standard. And if you were prepare to work er…then there was always an opportunity to better yourself. From those xxxx points of view, I suspect not many people er, wanted to run back to Uganda, and that’s, that’s what happened.

And again, makes pragmatic sense I supporse for, the reasons you came to England xxxx

Correct. Personal, personal sense and then personal financial well being.

Of course.

Which is very important, if your an economic migrant, its important but if you’re a, a refugee and you come here with fifty pounds in your back pocket, that is you know, that is the most important aspect of your life. Em…in terms of…when…you, sort of, again, your family got to Britain et cetera, I mean, how…we’ve kinda touched on the fact there was a certain…em, transference of culture…education system’s quite similar so perhaps that made the adaptation a little bit easier, what aspects of life did you struggle to adapt to, and all your family? Weathers always the one I xxxx [LAUGHS]. But where there any aspects of british society that you, perhaps even today you don’t understand?

No, i…personally, there is no…no aspect of the British society that I feel I do not understand, and then why it behaves in a certain fashion. And I, I ….I speak from the point of view of er, a reasonably well informed person. Em…I… speak in relation to right from the royal family and that sort of society…

Mm-hmm.

….and a society of very very well, one, one top two percent of the society in terms of financial terms who do very very well and, er…leave er…at a different level. And then I speak from the point of professional classes, whether it be doctors, dentists, pharmacists, accounts, lawyers…er, I know those and how, how they live. Then we speak from the of, of the people…from the… other aspect of the society who work in civil, whether it be civil service, whether it be er…in em, businesses…as er, employees…accountants, bookeeepers, whatever. So…do I feel like did I, did I feel that there is any part of society that I could have not gone into…er, yes I did. I did never think that I would be able to merge into the very upperclass society in terms of er, if you, classify societies by there…there wealth.

Mm-hmm.

Er yes, I did feel that. But did it actually matter to me? Personally no, because there was plenty of opporuntities for me to rise form the levels that iwas at. Em…er, and…do well for myself and…my immediate relations and family.

And, that leads perfectly onto…something I haven’t asked you I mean, you wetn to university here obvuiously, er…

No, no I didn’t. what I did was I, I’d done a -levels in af-, in Uganda and then I caeme here like, took up er, due to the fact that my father would not have been able to afford…

Afford.

..the fees to send me to a university I took up er, accountacnyc training.

Right.

Which enabled me to study as well as pay for myself because I was paid a small er, salary.

Mm-hmm.

To get on with, and…that’s, so i…did accountancy degree which is like a training contract.

Mm-hmm.

Er and…er…so that’s how I studied.

And you’re still accountant today?

I am, I’m a practicing accountatnt in…in a fairly successful practice er…

I've heard your son, got involved at one point.

My son did aswell, for a short while yes, and then, then…he thought he wanted to do better than er…

laughs

… XXXX something different.

They always do don’t they laughs.

xxxx.

I think em, your daughter has a very good interesting perspective on that. In terms of, what you want from your children, and perhaps what they want aswell and often, and I don’t think that’s exclusive to your community XXXX.

XXXX.

Em, and at what, is there any point where you’ve, when the opportunity to go back when idi amin, did you ever consider going back?

I, I never did. Ah because i…what happened is that upon, once I finished my education, I found my feet er, quite rapidly. I was quite driven in the sense that I wanted to be…er, if I were to reamin in accountancy I wanted to become self-employed because I’m a business owner XXXX…

XXXX….

And, and, and…er, I started er…I qualified in seventy seven. I’d became a manager when I was er…worked with them a couple of years. Seventy nine I moved on joined a smaller partnership, em…with a view to becoming a partner if, if…after twelve month trial, if I like them and they like me.

Mm-hmm.

Er and…that worked out reasonably well, and, and then…from really has been nothing but…er, hard but success with the hard work.

Mm-hmm.

And today I am part of a thirty partner accountancy practice employing three hundred people.

Wow.

So, e…and that is really what I meant about the fairness of the british society in which you, if you are prepared to work. You may have to work a wee bit harder than the those people who had right connections in, and…privileges.

So do i. [laughs].

But if you’re prepared to work hard, er…and I even believe that today, I one is prepared to work hard…one, you are given that opportunity to work hard. And two, the fruit sof your hard work, you are able to enjoy.

Hence your lovely house, and beautiful family.

Thank you er, but….yes, and…that’s and…it, really depends on what you want to achieve. The harder you are prepared to work, the more sacrifice, sacrifice in inverted commons really, because…we really not been wanting for anything. Er I’m…oritened towards playing sports, and enjoying er, a life from that perspective as opposed to just sitting and finding different ways of making more and more and more money. Er, i…was content and…er…things could have been, couldn’t have been better really.

And I’ve heard you enjoy quite a lot of time on the golf course.

I do.

Laughs. Em…and in terms of your siblings have they all found relative success aswell?

Yes my…

Through hard work…

Well yes I have….one brother and I have two sisters and er…both sisters are, are married. One…if my younger sister actually works for…for my business as er…as a clerk. And has done very well. Erm…my, second sister er…use, had joined the civil service as, as er…em, DSS department of Social Services as, as er, clerk. And she was very rapidly within the, within that er. My brother hasn’t been terribly successful but, in a way, er, looking at it er…selfishly, er, it hasn’t been so bad because he therefore has a, has enabled, and has been able to look after my mother…

Ok.

…without having to push my mother into a care home.

Yes, of course.

We could not have achieved what we have achieved, had, did, had we not had him…

Mm-hmm.

…sacrifincg time looking after my mother.

Yeah. do you tell him that.

XXXX of course.

Of course.

Of course, and, and not only do we tell him that we appreciate it er, very much.

Mm-hmm.

Em, even today my mother who is now eighty three, em is er…not terribly well. We can still pursue the work the hours that we want to work, and, and our leisure activities. Er…without having to, have a guilty complex of having to send…

Of course, yeah.

…mother to a care home, em because there is somebody who is prepared to look after her.

And, you’re more importantly not a stranger or a nurse…

Ya.

…somebody who’s part of your family.

And, and we contribute financially certainly, but from the point of view of time…we are left free to pursue our own activities.

Do you em… I’m gonna, we’re really getting towards the end now, so em, we’ll probably be another ten, fifteen minutes if that’s OK for you.

OK.

Em, three or four more questions. Em…I’m go on to the success of…the Ugandan Asian, er... Ugandan Asian erm… refugee community in Britain. Em, we touched on it with your own personal dealings, but also, we’ll… touch on that later. And lets face it…it is a very celebrated community. I mean, pretty much held in very high regard, and almost as, a justification for the continued immigration into the country. Em…the success, and also the cultural aspects that you’ve influenced, such as, extended opening times, corner shops that sort of thing. We will talk about that in a moment, but, lets talk about you. About your identity. Your…?

XXXX.

I asked a man who was born in XXXX…

I…er…I feel very er…I think the word ‘British Asian’…

Mm-hmm.

…really defines me. Er…that’s what I feel. Em…I am er, very much at home. Whenever I go away from the country, and I do very frequently, two or three times a year. Em…after about a forthnight I am quite hungry to get back. Er, when I fly in, when you fly into heathrow and you see those red chimney pots you think you are arriving at home.

Yeah.

XXXXX I cant change that, that’s how I feel.

Yeah yeah.

I go er, for, for…many a years we felt er…that er…that we are er, Indians. However, only interms of er….our cultural views. Er…we, I had not been to india. The first time I went to india was in nineteen seventy…three…

Ok.

Or seventy four. Was for a forthnight with my father as a holiday. And I didn’t go back to india until nineteen ninty five after that…

So you don’t really feel any attachment to the terriotory XXXX…

I've none whatsoever, and in fact we, we, we… feel quite foreign when we go to india.

Yeah

So that’s…that goes without saying. In fact it was, er…effectively we forced ourselves to go because I our kids were beginning to be of an age where we thought the not er…have any idea …about their heritage.

Yeah.

So then we from ninety five to XXXX we almost go thre once a ywar. But…where is home? There is no dobt at er, in my mind that England is home.

Mmhmm.

Whatever its’ pros and cons, England is home.

Yeah.

Er and…one feels, and I think I, this should come through in your XXXX, one feels a sense of gratitude, that er…we were presented an opportunity that we were living er…that we…we came to live amongst society where people…mostly were of er…good morals…of fair er…approach and attitude. And, the fact that you were not in English er…or not white, did not stop you from progressing.

Mhhm.

We progressed and…er, if you’re prepared to work…

Mhhm

…you would make your way up.

And you can then renjoy the fruits of your labour.

XXXX at which ever level. You know, but me, so from that point of view…where is home? There's no doubt home is England.er…do I ever feel that I want to go and er, live elsewhere? Frankly, no. where do I want to live? I want to live where my children will be, where my grandchildren will be. So er…from that point of view again, we would rather live here. Do I …im a slight, and perhaps slightly unusual in yje sense that I never would even consider buying a holiday home anywhere else.

Ok

I’d go on holidays.

Mhm.

But I don’t want a particular place, whether it be spain whether it india, whether it be east Africa, wherever.

Mhm.

No. er, so from that point of view, I personally feel very much, british.

Mhm

Er…very comfortable. I…don’t necessarily frequent nightclubs and, I’ve never done so.

Mhm.

Em…only because ei ahvent found any, I may have missed something in life but so be it.

Laughs. I, considering some of the music I listen to night clubs nowadays I don’t think you’re missing out much, at all.

Laughs.

I sound like my dad then. What I’m going to do Mr. Samani, em, I've got three more questions left.

Ok.

But I am going to change that will take no more than ten minutes but I have two minutes left on this, so I am gonna go and change the memory card. I just gonna run next door to get it. And then we’ll, another ten minutes and it’s…

Ok.

…I promise. Thank you very much.

[Long pause]

It’ll take no more than ten seconds. It’s the em, it’s the interviewers nightmare is em, either the battery going or the, forgetting the extra memory card.

[Ends tape]

The End

Transcript not to be used without copyright

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Naresh Samani

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: 12/01/2013

Language: English

Venue: Kenton, London

Name of interviewer: Greig Campbell

Length of interview: 62:32

Transcribed by: Lwam Tesfay

Archive Ref: 2012_esch_UgAs_06

2012_esch_UgAs_06b

2012_esch_UgAs_06b

And away we go. Ok then. You touched on something I think is really important, I think this’ll probably be important to you as well. You were talking about your own identity, and…you know, sort of, the idea of, living in Britain and obviously achieving…em…a new life for yourself in Britain. Em…what about the cultural heritage of your children? I mean… I know you’re sort of, perhaps, a little bit unique cos…obviously I don’t know your other siblings but having met your daughter she’s gone back to Uganda and actually done that, documentary. Em…but, in terms of the second generation, and perhaps not even your siblings, do you think there is awareness of cultural heritage amongst the second generation of Ugandan Asian in Britain?

Er... [LONG PAUSE]. Yes but fading. So, em…my er, if you take me personally, my feelings towards er, Uganda or er… cultural heritage arising from India er…are…stronger, than my children’s would be.

Mhm

But mine are not as strong as my parents were.

Of course.

So this is…to me, this is something that you will naturally ex, expect, is going to happen whether were….and…there isn’t much that you can do to change. Er…and…no matter how hard one tries, things. the e only thing that is certain is change. Em…and...is there any good or bad? It’s also always from personal perspective.

Mhm

Whether something that is changing is good or not. Em….so you can’t control the XXXX … the change. You do your, what you think is best for your, your children. Em… and I think that applies to every human being probably, and xxxx to every, er, part of the society that we live in today. So em, will my children’s association, or heritage be as strong as mine was towards er, Uganda particularly…em…er the answer is no. it would not be. But is that a bad thing or a good thing? My view is, that its irrelevant, it is the…society that you live in, society from which you take er…you…must be prepared to give, so long as you do that, then you’ve delivered a good human being.

Mhm

That’s that’s really...

A well XXXX.

XXXX. now, it is always very easy to find few instances to say all the society’s unfair an d they could have done this, and look at this, they have er…they’ve done such and such thing to a particular section of the society. Em…that’s very easy, but on the whole, to live in England, to live amongst the people that we’ve lived amongst. To be able to be given the opportunity er…to grasp, our children where…treated equally. Em…and….the proof of the pudding is in the fact that er, they have done and achieved what they have.

Mhm.

Em….

Do you think em…do you think it’s important they know sort of, the turmoil of the expulsion, the story. I mean not necessarily have links to Uganda or even links their Indian heritage. But do you think it’s important to be aware of, what…em, you and your generation, your parents generation went through in nineteen seventy two.

Er…I personally don’t, but I think there are people in the community that do. I don’t only because I think that er, the people who think it’s important that they remember all that are the ones who XXXX the society not to change. Er, and…I give er…I…I have fairly good knowledge of Jewish society XXXX for example and if, even if you look at scriptures…er when you look at Jewish scriptures they were referred to holocaust. And they want that to er, be a reminder to their children time and again, because they think that if they do that, then their society will not change.

Mhm.

Er…I don’t necessarily believe that’s how things should be. But there are people who believe that they should remember the turmoil, they should remember the way we use to live or the way people use to live in Africa. Er…and to enjoy that er, almost in XXXX privileged position, they should remember all of that er…

Do you think they’re the people who perhaps been less successful in England?

Erm…no, not necessarily. I mean they would be very successful people who might think like that. Ya, I, no I don’t think, I don’t think so. I think this success overall, if you were to take that at twenty eight, thirty thousand people who arrived in…the country. Er, from Uganda, and…how they have, assimilated within the society and how they’ve er, progressed if…financial wellbeing is progress. Er…if you see that then, very large part has been quite successful.

Mhm.

Successful in different er…variety. We arrived really, those Ugandan Asians who arrived here, arrived at a time, in a nation which was a nation of small shopkeepers. Er…and...before Asians it might have been Jewish community…

Yeah, yeah

… or it might have been or whichever community er em…and…and the very fact that XXXX…to a large part of that arrival of Asians, English wasn’t necessarily…er, they were not fluent in…in terms of communications. And therefore it meant that when they went to the job centres for a job they’d end up taking a menial job.

Yeah.

And…and when you have, you take for example somebody like my father…who ran in his own business, but wasn’t very…fluent in English. Er, so…he would have, he struggled to get a job. So what he was prepared to take any job and he took a night shift, er job in a bakery. Er, in Chatham. Now…er…the point I’m trying to make really is that if you’re prepared to work, you will be able to progress. And from him working in that, in that bakery to…us where we are today. There is a direct link.

Mhm.

And that is the work ethic of the people.

Now…it leads perfectly onto pretty much my last but one question. And em…XXXX, I mean you are held in very high regards as I mentioned earlier in terms of…the, the, probably the standout migrant group that arrived. Because of the way you arrived as refugees aswell. Em…and such a success story, I mean celebrated on many levels, through media, em…through politics, em…quite often if you’re pro-government, to dispel the idea of bringing more immigrants into the country and support migrants and you would use the Ugandan Asians as a perfect example, of how, what can be achieved as a migrant. And also how successful migrants can assimilate. And not only adapt to English culture but also add, something to English culture. Now…XXXX, why do you think that was successful, I mean you’ve mentioned that, em, I’ve heard different answers. One that was a merchant class anyway, and you brought that certain entrepreneurial skill and…that sort of, entrepreneurial ambition, and that merchant ability. Em…other aspects I've heard is because there was a already a network of Gujarati Asians in Britain anyway. I mean there’s no one answer but can you give me sort of XXXX…

My…perspective on that is very simple. This is, and this is it. [Short pause]. The community that arrived, there was a fair proportion of…that community who where in businesses and understand, wheeling, and understood wheeling and dealing. Em…buying and selling, er…identifying opportunities of the products that were required in a particular er…particular place. Em…so that is one aspect. The second aspect which is probably more important that the first er…first aspect was that, er, not being…high, not being educated, er…and not being very fluent in communications. Er…that…that particular generation, would struggled with getting, er…what one might call, decent professional jobs. Er, so when it came to…er, work. The work was available but it was, of er…of menial work i.e. bus conductors, train drivers, er…car park attendants er…cleaners…er, XXXX see people in Harrow of that, not necessarily from, not, at Heathrow, not necessarily of er, of Ugandan descent but er, people from Indian origin.

Mhm.

Em. So those jobs were available and…er, if you were a businessman, you held a certain status in…the society in Uganda.

Mhm.

To come then, to come then and…work as a manual worker somewhere…XXXX.

The bottom man, did not sit very well with, with the community so, there’s sought out opportunities. So I mean, would you rather ironically the privileged status you had back in Uganda which possible caused the populism that led to your leaving…then drove you to achieve your success …

In…England. I…I don’t think that er, that er, that er…the, the reason for the Ugandans being thrown out was the fact that they were successful in Uganda. I think the reason was, ah, Idi Amin wanted to get back at the British government…

Yeah.

…who had turned down some aid. I can’t remember exactly what it was.

Well I don’t think the British would have took him seriously to be honest.

Yeah.

XXXX. [LAUGHS]. Em, I‘d heard that you can tell me this aswell, this is anecdotal and this will be before we wrap up. Somebody told me…he fell in love with a Ugandan Asian.

He did. He xxxx….

She rejected him.

Yes. He, he wanted to, to marry er…the…

Prominent businessman XXXX.

Prominent business, business er…woman. Em…called Madrawnis, and…he had actually suggested that and…when he was turned down, that could have been part of.

Mhm.

But this is, lot of, there are a lot innuendos here.

And also you’re trying to rationalise a very random man [LAUGHS].

Yes, correct, correct.

Em, how do you think em…the anniversary should be celebrated? We spoken about you know, you…don’t, you’ve articulated the idea that it’s not necessarily that important that second third generation, you know, like hold, close ties to Uganda, and the process of expulsion. But how do you think. I mean obviously I, the reason I’m interviewing you is because it’s been forty years.

Yeah.

Em…I mean how should this be celebrated? I mean, do you think, people in Britain know the story and I don’t mean Ugandan Asian or people XXXX, I mean why’s it English people do you think…they need to be aware of the, your story and…your process or?

Do I think?

Mhm.

That’s a difficult one for me to answer…

You’ll have to speak up.

…on behalf of everyone.

[LAUGHS]. XXXX.

XXXX if I speak on my behalf would I like, divide a society to know how we have fared, and how this society, the British, the English society helped us to get to…to the level that we have got to. Em…and almost without exception, everybody has down well, compared to what they were doing when they were in Uganda. Would I like the British er, would I like the society, the world at large to, to be aware of that…than yes. Personally I feel it would be a good idea, er for the soc-, for the…general, English, British, society to know, how, the English society works and appreciates, and… assists, in difficult times. Er…I have nothing but sense of gratitude for that.

Mhm.

Er, I think we as er, if there's one thing I would say that is er that, we as, as Asians we should really give back to the society. Not moan and groan and…whether it’s to do with taxes, whether it’s to do with charity XXXX, whether it’s to, assist with local projects. We should give because we have been given a heck of a lot, and we could have easily fallen by the wayside.

Mhm.

That’s how I feel.

And what an amazing way to celebrate it actually.

Ya.

Yeah. Em…celebrating the two cultures coming together and the two societies, actually, easing each other and helping each other and allowing British society to move forward and advanced together.

Where else can you go in the world, er, I suspect nowhere, where there is a positive discrimination …

Mhm. [LAUGHS].

To help you to arise, so that you are at the same standard as your neighbour.

Mhm.

So…

I think the one place in the world that would protagonise, that would be the US where I lived there for five years and I’m not sure whether XXXX…

I’m not sure, I, I have friends who are, who live in US, I have been to US many a times.

Mhm.

Em…I’m not sure, that if you actually cut through the strand of the society across the broader in U.S and I’m talking about the Puerto Ricans or the…er…Latino descent…

The Hispanic communities XXXX.

XXXXX ya.

I mean I, you know, people always, I think, it’s really distasteful that people use the example of having a black president is if, race relations have now got an equal footing. I mean I personally think without being offensive that, I’m probably as black, African American as President Obama.

Ya.

He’s educated in a white XXXX, born in Hawaii [LAUGHS].

Yeah. All his, all his…

I don’t know if he hung around on the block XXXX with the XXXX [LAUGHS].

No, he’s very er…what would be XXXX, of any other, white XXXX…

Educated middle class.

…and but, if you, if you were to take the poor class er…whites in states.

Mhm.

Er…I’m not sure that they would er, be anywhere near, the likes of Obama.

XXXX, it’s true.

Or George bush even. [LAUGHS]. Right the last question Mr Samani, and I promise it is, em…I do this and it’s a bit of always a jovial sort of end, I mean… I've spoken to a couple of members of your community and, their joke was that we actually have a picture of Idi Amin in our kitchen. Em to thank him, and commemorate him for what he did. Em, I know that’s sort of like…it’s perhaps turning someone who, who proves to be a very brutal horrible dictator, but there kinda almost laughing at him and that’s what we do don’t we.

Yeah.

I mean we laugh at Hitler as a British culture we turn him into a, you know, an object of…sort of, mickey-taking. Em… jokiness and I think it’s the same what they did with Idi Amin. What would your message be to Idi Amin now? I know he’s departed to wherever he’s departed to, em…XXXX

I…if I had to give message to Idi Amin…

If he’s sitting now in front of me.

Yes, I would say to him…that er, although his intentions were vile, when he did what he did. Em…it, happens that it has actually benefited em, my community tremendously. And I would actually thank him for, having done what he did but I would be thanking him now, not necessarily nineteen seventy two.

Of course, of course. And I think as a legacy, em…I think we all celebrate sort of, the achievement of your community, as we should. But I think also, people should be aware of, what damage it caused Uganda when you left, XXXX.

No the sorry part is, is that er…the people who suffered are the native Africans.

Mhm.

And they suffered to a, a significant degree…there have been deaths, er, financially there are no better off.

Mhm.

There may be a very small section that is, but there is nothing to say that section would have done well in any case.

Of course.

Em…and I, I XXXX, I returned to Uganda for the first time after forty years in…September of two thousand and ten.

Oh is it that late?

That late…I had never gone back I had gone to Kenya a few times on holiday but never to Uganda. Er, and…putting it bluntly I don’t think that a lot of that African has improved, that significantly. There are, there are very successful African businessman as there should be and that, and…

You hope they would be after forty years.

But on the whole, in terms of the populist, er…are they any better off? I think, you would probably get a resounding answer saying that they’re not.

Mhm. And what was your, we’ll close on this now, but what was your feeling when it set off, off that plane, what were your expectations in fact? Cos XXXX…

When I, when I left I went on my holidays?

Yeah, I don’t mean that for forty years XXXX.

I hadn’t been there for forty years, my expectations were, em…that, that er, things will have changed significantly but they only changed significantly in…the, in …the towns, cities, but er, otherwise the rule of communities is still the same. There’s deterioration in terms of wellbeing of the buildings, and the arch-, and the civil services, and the roads. That, has er, any growth that has been there has been very half-hazard.

Yeah. Sporadic.

Er, and I… I visited the home that I grew up in. where there was an African family living, and they were very welcoming and they, allowed me to look at the room I use sleep in…

I thought you were going to say they thought you were gonna come back and ask for the keys [LAUGHS].

No, no, even if they thought so, they knew, XXXX. But on the whole, the African…for, whose name this, this expulsion took place, I don’t think has benefited XXXX.

However I think it’s benefited a large number of your community.

Oh without any doubt.

But I think you’ve also benefited yourself, through what is, hard work and XXXX, I think that’s also.

I think that, that goes without saying, its…one should be grateful for having the opportunity to be able to work hard and to, to…

Achieve. And I think I can’t think of a better note to finish the interview er, Mr Samani.

OK.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Really really appreciate this.

No problem.

And, em, thank you for giving me your time.

OK.

Right.

The End

Transcript not to be used without copyright

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Naresh Samani

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: 12/01/2013

Language: English

Venue: Kenton, London

Name of interviewer: Greig Campbell

Length of interview: 18:41

Transcribed by: Lwam Tesfay

Archive Ref: 2012_esch_UgAs_06b

2013_esch_UgAs_07

2013_esch_UgAs_07

This is where we do the old testing

You want to do testing?

Yes, so I want you

I’m Praful Patel. I live in Bedford Square… off Bedford Square, Bedford Avenue, and I’m delighted to meet Greig, whose interviewing me now

And that is a perfect test my friend. Okay, let’s get going. As I say, this is very informal. Um.

I understand.

Okay, so I… for the personal details, you did just give them me, Mr. Patel, but can you give me your full name, including any middle names, and also could you spell your name, if that’s okay?

Sure. My name is… the short name is Praful Patel. P for Peter. R, Robert. A, apple. F, Freddie. U, uncle. L, London. Patel. And I’m son of Raojibhai. R.A.O.J.I.B.H.A.I Patel.

Normally we’ll always have a name. Praful Raojibhai Patel. I was born in Uganda, and partly bought up in Uganda, and partly bought up in India, as a young boy. And err… I arrive in England in 1958 as a student.

It was ’58… and I know that from doing my research. When were you born? What was your date of birth?

Ah, my date of birth is 7^th March 1939. It makes me 74 next month.

And you’re looking rather well for it, may I add.

[LAUGHS]

Despite the scratching your head [LAUGHS]

God’s grace. God’s grace. I… I still have the energy and the youth in me to do lots of things in my life.

I think you’ve got a bit more energy than a lot of the youth today.

You know my father passed away at 98

Really?

Yeah

What a splendid age.

And I told him, I said ‘please, for God’s sake, leave two more years…

You get a letter of the Queen

You’d have got the card off the Queen.

My… My Great Gran actually died two days before, erm, and it was actually in the post, the letter, erm, and the Queen actually… the Queen’s representatives let the family keep the letter, so we do have the letter.

He missed it by two years.

Two years? That’s probably a bit too much to actually get your letter.

He never believed me when I told him that the Queen will give you a birthday card. He said ‘always pulling my leg. You’re joking.’

She doesn’t deliver it though [LAUGHS]

No.

That would…

I said ‘she does send a signed card’

Yes, yes, yes, very much so. Um, in terms of… you mentioned you were born in Uganda. Can you tell me what town in Uganda you were born in, what area, what part of the country?

I was born at Jinja. J.I.N.J.A, on the banks of Lake Victoria, where the River Nile starts from. It’s the birthplace of River Nile. It’s a very nice, beautiful little town, and err… it’s the second largest err, town in Uganda, after Kampala. And Jinja had its uniqueness. Uniqueness in many, many ways about its beauty, and being on the banks of River Nile, and with Lake Victoria, and err, it had many wildlife, err, life around. And the community was small, very religious, and united. Including Muslims, Farsis, Jains, Hindus. They all lived very peacefully.

Ahem

They celebrated each other’s festivals, and you know, I… all those differences you now see, or you see them in India, it didn’t exist in Jinja.

So you’d say a very co… united, cohesive community?

Cohesive, very cohesive, very united, and very loving and extremely friendly.

You obviously have fond memories of growing up there?

Jinja, I have very fond memories. And err… last year when I went to Jinja, it was err, immersion of the ashes of the late Manubhai Madhvani, the sugar tycoon

Yes

And the richest Indian in Uganda

Yes, he’s the father, isn’t it of the current

Yes, that’s right… and I went um, to Jinja, and I cried. It’s a war-zone. Everything is ruined. What was once… I would call it a palace of Uganda… completely ruined

Which in itself is the pearl of Africa

Pearl of Africa, yes. Uganda is the pearl of Africa. And I went to my school, and the headmistress was very nice to meet me, and I said ‘look, can I go to my class now?’ School is the same, but windows are broken. It’s very badly maintained. The library was the same, but it’s not maintained well. In my days I was the head prefect of the school, and I really looked after the school. The garden is ruined. The garden that we worked very hard, every morning at 5’O clock, doing gardening till seven, going home, having a bath and coming back to school. I was shattered. When I saw my class, I cried. And the headmistress said ‘Mr Patel are you alright?’ I said ‘oh, just leave me alone for ten minutes, I’ll be alright. It’s the emotions catching up with me.’ The very desk that I was sitting on was still there after so many years. I left school in 1958.

How… so many mem…

XXXX

Many memories but however slightly tarnished by the reality of what it was now

The reality. And she said ‘nobodies funding us, we don’t have money’, and I said ‘look madam, XXXX my way. I’m celebrating the 40^th anniversary of Uganda Asians as chairperson and if I want to do something, we too want to make an impact in Uganda. Like we… the 38,500 Ugandan Asians who were thrown out of Uganda, including Uganda citizens, and British citizens, and some of them stateless, that we would like to impact 38,500 Ugandan lives in education and health

And on top of that the…

And one other thing I’d love to do, and I want to do. I’ve spoken to many Jina-ites who are here from Jinja, and I’ve written an email for them, said ‘look folks, let’s get together’

Yeah

‘And renovate the school’

What an amazing legacy that would be aswell

We would like to do it. I’m too busy now, but I said to the headmistress I would do my best, I do not promise you, but I’ll get these Jinga-ites together now.

And I mean, we’ll go onto this later in terms of people’s perspective on the past, erm… but you said it was a very tight-knit community. You know, you celebrated each other’s cultural practices and religious traditions and festivals

That’s right

And that seems quite typical of the Ugandan Asians I have spoken to. You know, you do have Ugandan Asian Muslims who would celebrate Diwali, and there’d be a crossover in terms of almost

Yes

And as you, I think quite eloquently put, erm, unlike today’s society there was no real sort of competition, or fractions, it was unified.

Unified, we were ten siblings of my father. Eight girls and two boys, one girl died unfortunately from a disease called black water disease.

Okay.

But, you can imagine you know, my sister celebrated Lakshamin, they would do the Lakshamin with the Muslims and the Christians also. It was a festival everybody celebrated, Eid was celebrated with an exchange of gifts and sweets.

I mean would you say as growing up you saw yourselves as Ugandan Asian first, and Gujurati first, and then anything else would sort of follow in terms of your identity growing up?

As far as I was personally concerned when I became aware of politics after ...

Children aren’t that aware of things like that are they?

No, no, I’ll tell you what happened, at the age of nine, my father shipped us off to India, he said, ‘you guys are going to become a product of the colonial schools, so damn you all, go to India, live in a village, and learn the Indian rural life. And he wanted my little sisters to be married during that process. So we were all sent off to India, we were all very unhappy in India when we arrived, and we had this old ancestral home, we had to clean it up, a lot of cobwebs, this that and everything else, and we were unhappy for a few months. We had a local school, at that time soon after India’s independence, we were to wear a Gandhi cap and go to school, do the various prayers, you know, et cetera in the traditional style, and we joined the classes, and we had some farms, we were sent to do farming on a Saturday and Sunday, and help our - our farmer’s cultivate all the seasons.

So your dad it seems to me wanted you and your siblings to be very well grounded?

Yes, we had buffalos and cows, so we learned to clean them first, then eventually I knew how to milk, and I could do it today also.

You could still do it today?

Yes.

Well luckily enough I have a cow out-, no I don’t.

[BOTH LAUGH].

And then, and then, you know I learned all the things they do in the village, and when we went the village went to the village there was no sanitation, no facility, so we had to go to the loo in the fields. So a gang of us used to go together, carrying water, it was fun.

Yes, of course.

Of course a year later, the village received grant and they did all the, fix all the pipes and everything.

A sewage system?

A sewage system and all that, and we were a bit happier. But there was no electricity, so the first two years I used to study at night in the street light, or we put up a candle or a lamp, oil lamp to study. Then the electricity came, this was after independence you know, things were moving. And then, and then my two sisters got married, and we went back to Africa.

And what age was that?

By that, fourteen, by that time I was very conscious, and very alert, it was my aunt who was a widow, one year after she married my uncle she became a widow. And as a widow she wore all maroon clothes, shaved and she never remarried because it wasn’t permitted, now it isn’t permitted either under the society rules. She was XXXX to XXXX Patel, who was India’s Iron Man, they called him the Churchill of India, founding father of India, Jawaharlal Nehru, Sardar Patel, Mahatma Ghandi, the trio.

He was the iron man, the task master?

At nine she took me to meet Sardar Patel, and I was there and she was pushing me, and I was fighting to look at that Iron Man, and I reached him and I put his hand on my head, and that inspiration has still stayed with me. But she was so political, she would talk about anti colonial British Government.

And did you have that, I mean obviously you didn’t have it originally when you were born in Uganda, it took the experience in India to be aware of the colonial power, the repression ...

Colonial power, the Empire, she wanted the freedom for African nations, how India struggled to get independence, how all the leaders were locked up by the British, and what a cruel British Raj was. They only – they only sold us everything they built in England to make money, they never developed industry, only XXXX I still remember what she used to say, ‘the best thing England did was build the railways.’ The largest in the world.

It’s become quite a theme, which is quite ironic, being the original reason why the Ugandan Asians went to Uganda to take part in the production of the railways?

Correct, correct. She, it calculated a spirit of anti-colonialism, anti-imperialism in to me, and more like socialist doctrines you know?

Do you feel, so you went back to Uganda at the age of fourteen, and did you feel you had this sense, you were suddenly aware of Uganda as a colonial state?

Yes, so what, so what I was saying was, you asked me a question about Indians, right, and these communities, or were they Indians, or were they Africans, or were they British? And I used to lecture them, and ‘look, you have to integrate and assimilate, you’ve got to understand the aspirations of African people, you’ve got to write poetry about it, write literature about it. Like the British people do, the colonial Scottish people used to write. But you have to see the country, it’s a very important country. And if you remain insular, in Jinja central park, and grow as just Indian community, do it united through village, through different organisations, peacefully living, loving each other, then you forget the bigger picture.

The outside world?

The bigger picture was “what about the Africans?”

Now, I mean you’ve touched on a point that I was about to bring up, because it seems the perspective of –um… certainly, I think it was used by Amin, certainly used by supporters of Amin, but there was this perspective that Ugandan Asians did have an element of privilege, associating them perhaps with the colonial power.

They did, they did.

And did you feel that tension perhaps when you were growing up, or perhaps even when you went back at the age of fourteen, did you sense that?

No, I went and I tell you, I used to participate in Indian Association meetings [PAUSES]. I used to speak about this, and when I made friends with Africans at the XXXX College, the African College, my father didn’t like it much. He said “why are you mixing with these African children, it’s not for you to do this”, that was because of resentment. I said, “look, they’re human beings, who also have aspirations. It’s our duty to support that political movement.”

They share the same soil as us ...

Yes, and none of the Indians wanted to do that, and slowly, in a years time, I was branded by everybody as a communist. My father used to be rounded up by elders, ‘what’s wrong with your son, what the hell is he doing?’

He’s trouble ...

Control him [COUGHS]. So I used to tell them, that ‘look, you are dying to have an invitation from the Governor, you ought to go to the Governor’s XXXX party, you are asking for special reservations for the Indians in the Parliament, this is wrong, this is apartheid, this is what Mahatma Ghandi fought against in South Africa.’

So did you, was there a sense of almost segregation then, in society between the black Africans and the Asians?

Well the black Africans, the one that I knew then as a young boy were articulate and so were the politicians I met, because I used to go to meetings to see what they were saying, what they were talking about. And of course, it wasn’t liked by the, by the elders, but nevertheless I realized there was nobody to speak for them, and only government that spoke for them was the Indian government, so I was beginning to read about the freedom struggle for the African people, in Kenya, in Tanzania, in in in in in South Southern Rhodesia, Northern Rhodesia and I, I I just saw a perspective that some somebody has to support these freedom struggles, and somehow end the British Raj. So, by the time I qualified, by the time I left I found er just two years before I was about to finish school, and became head prefect of the school, I found an all Ugandan Students Association, and I – I- in my own mind I conceived a scheme, and if you’re my member I give you a card, Greig, photograph, you become a member, that card will buy you books at twenty per cent discount, pencils and pens at twenty per cent discount, in shops you get discount, in cinema you get half a ticket, in railways you - you pay half. So [COUGHS] suddenly I made 3,000 members all all across Uganda, and in the school we used to travel in the inter-school competition, to Mbale, to XXXX, to Kampala, to, to Masaka and to other places. So whenever I was around I would mix with students from different areas, well I had the first all Ugandan Student Union Conference, the year I finished my school. After that it all ceased when I left, I was the active dynamic force behind it. But I tell you what: we did sometimes go and launch a protest to the Governor over the bad system of the education we had, and there was not enough funding, et cetera, we used to take up issues with the local Police Commissioner, always an English men, no XXXX Commissioners, and as well as the District Commissioner two nice Scottish people. And the Scottish were different to the English, I mean no offence to you.

No, my name’s Campbell so you don’t have to worry.

They were, they were really a different breed.[COUGHS], I could see the English and the non-English on the British Isles. And they were very kind.

I think you have to understand the Scottish going back a number of years at the end of repression of the English as much as the members of the colonial powers in Africa; just because it’s a little bit closer to London doesn’t mean they escaped the repression of…

So after I left school I came to India, things were not as active as I had created.

Yeah.

And today if you ask in Jinja they will say that Praful was a most brilliant leader, very dynamic and did a lot of things for us. That’s it, a nice time that I could really on my own organise things at that age.

And obviously I mean, and did you, what was the black Africans, the black Ugandans, what was their perspective on suddenly seeing this young, youthful Asian Ugandan actually fighting for their rights as well?

They were friendly with me all the leaders of the Africans.

I presume they were shocked?

They were shocked, but me, I would hug them you know, because they were my brothers, they were easy with me you know, and I learned about problems in African schools, and wrote little memos and gave it to the Education Minister and all that. But I remained very much against my own people, because they were not doing what they were supposed to do. They were, they were, I mean virtually cronies of the British Raj, and they all got their MBE’s and their OBE’s and Knighthood, they were craving for it, you know?

Pandering to the oppressor almost?

Absolutely. And and – and- and they have representation in Parliament, what to what end? I believed in universal voting systems, a good democratic society is what I saw in India, it didn’t happen when I was there. And when I was there I used to read, you know about England, the Fabian Society, the Theosophical Society, if you like, and I would read ‘Lives of 100 Great Men,’ and I was inspired by Bertram Russell, I mean you know characters you have in history. But I read about Stalin, Lenin, Marxism, I did read the book ‘Das Kapital,’ I didn’t like it, in my school I think I sold it ten - ten pages down the line, I got so bloody bored I said this is not a book I’d read.

It is a very boring book.

But I was aware about the, about the about Attlee, Sir Stratford Capes and all these British politicians.

People with a social conscience?

Who were, who were in favour of Indian independence, and I read about Churchill, who mildly I admired, the Iron Man, but at the same time he was very anti-India. So all this was there, and my father used to make read the Manchester Guardian you know, the old Manchester Guardian, cos my father believed that paper fought for Indian independence. So we had great fun all this time, so by the time I came to England, believe me there were students who had come to England as boys to study, they would bring the map of London, so I would know Regent’s Street, you know Trafalgar Square, so my aim was always Parliament. Really. I could see that building, and I would say, ‘I want to sit there.’ Thinking like that, dreaming like that. So I here and er on the very first night after I checked in, in the afternoon in the Indian YMCA I straight hit for the Parliament, I walked all of Tottenham Court Road.

You may have walked past this erm street I would have thought?

Absolutely, Cambridge Circus, Trafalgar Square, and I arrived at the Commons at about 9.30, 9.40 in the evening, and er the policeman said, ‘what do you want?’ I said, ‘sir I want to go sit in the Parliament, I believe there is a public gallery?’ So he said, ‘Ok, what’s your name? Go in, the central lobby, fill in a card.’ And I got my card and run up to the gallery, and I looked down, and I felt so happy, and I cried for a minute, and then I could recognise Harold MacMillan sitting in the front, and Hugh Gaitskell in front of him, and Hugh Gaitskell was winding up a debate on economic affairs.

Wow.

And I enjoyed it. And at eleven I walked back, and went to sleep at one o’clock. And I thought, ‘this is my day.’ Next day I got up, cos I’m a very staunch vegetarian, I knew that Bernard Shaw, and all Lasky Professors, XXXX and others were vegetarians with the British Vegetarian Society, so I found their address, I found how to go by bus, and I became member. They gave me a list of vegetarian restaurants in London, vegetarian guest houses in North Wales, in Lake District, in Matlock in Derbyshire.

Beautiful, Matlock.

Matlock! I used to stay there. From there, I had lunch on the way, and then I went to Fabian Society, my dream come true, and I met Shirley Williams, she was secretary there, she enrolled me.

She actually signed you in?

Yeah. Yeah, yes, she signed me the form. And you know what happened was, erm, I was, I then used to go to Fabian lectures, sit at the back, learn myself things like that. I knew about Theosophist Society, and er the Friends House, and I found the address for the Movement of Colonial Freedom, and I met a lovely Englishman named Mr Brockway, he was a member of Parliament, he was Lord Brockway. He died now, he was chair of the Movement for Colonial Freedom. So I joined, and I said “can you give me some work please?” He said ‘what would you like to do?’ I said, “I’m very focused on Eastern Central Africa”, so he said, ‘would you like to be the secretary of the sub-committee?’ I said, ‘I’ve never done a job like that, but I’d love to do that.’ And who was the chair of it? John Stonehouse.

Really [LAUGHS]. You seem to be erm, you walk in the right doors at the right time.

Right time. And then we organised so many demonstrations, and so many Trafalgar Square Demonstrations, protesting outside the Parliament, and to do with African freedom. And all the African leaders that came here, we would organise meetings at the Friends House, or the School of Economics, and things like that.

It seems to me, I mean this is a very opportune time to pick up on the one thing that stands out on reading your biography was how active you were in terms of a certain piece of legislation that was passed by a certain Mr Callaghan.

Callaghan, before Callaghan I’d like to brief you for a minute at you. So, so I became member of the Labour Party, I was for a while Chair of XXXX, Chair of the local Board here, which is where I live, I’ve never moved from here. I was down the road in Garver Street, and then I moved here, and I’ve never moved my address. Now the issue was that we were very opposed to the Commonwealth Immigrants Act in 1962. We fought against it, we campaigned against it, but it was pushed through by the MacMillan government, by Home Secretary Rab Butler, with one of the finest speeches of our times, in the defence of the Commonwealth, was by Hugh Gaskill, on the debate when he answered the debate. They were about to vote against it, and I remember the night they won mate, brilliant. And I tell you what, then we all got involved ourselves, by forming a commonwealth group of Afro-Carribean, Pakistani groups to fight against the - the injustices of race, all that.

Within the colonies.

And suddenly in the mid-60s my own Government, Harold Wilson brought about further curbs on immigration. ’68, old Callaghan, total race - racist British Home Secretary, he was seeing that African, Indians are coming. Enoch Powell did not help, he was articulating a case that these people should not be allowed to come.

Yes.

So was Duncan Sands, the former Commonwealth Secretary, who gave a pledge to the Indian people, like Iain Macleod did, that ‘we will keep our word, you stay British’. Now in Africa there were a lot of problems in Congo, problems in Zanzibar,

Kenya

People were given a choice for two years to either opt for local citizenship or retain their British citizenship. Now once XXXX things were like this people were clinging onto British citizenship, these people were clinging onto British passports, and they were devalued in 1968. In one stroke, in the most filthy way, the whole thing was pushed through Parliament in three days, in such indecent haste.

It was a back door, it was a back hand?

You may have not been born then.

I certainly wasn’t.

They pushed it through. We campaigned. I campaigned singularly, single hand, I collected everybody, and we had we had we had then, within a span of four or five days we had people at the airports receiving Kenyan Asians, who - who were beating the ban to be due on the 1^st of February, 1968. And that’s when I became internationally very famous, on the box every night, fighting my corner in debates, and things like that you know?

At this point ...

We nearly defeated the government in the House of Lords.

I was going to say you did almost… you ran it to the wire didn’t you?

We finally went to Buckingham Palace to stop the Queen from signing it. But all having done I saw very strange bed fellows, the left and the extreme right, all together to vote against this law. That’s why we nearly, because all these old peers around the country, they all came out, the hereditary peers, ‘oh my dear chap, how can you devalue a British passport? It’s Queen’s word in it, it’s a sanctity, we’re coming.’ They all came, voted. Callaghan came out very badly in that debate. He had he had a bit of a revolt in his own party with Shirley Williams and others that were voting. But, he carried it with the Tories vote. Iain Mcleod made a speech, I was there. ‘I gave my word, and I wish to keep it.’ That’s how we finished the debate. And he did, but lost.

Too late, fighting a tide?

And then a few MPs from all parties who knew [COUGH] that I’d lobbied, David Steele, John Hunt, and they all said, ‘lets have a meeting of MPs to see how we protect the rights of British citizens in Kenya.’ They set up an all-party Parliamentary group and I became its secretary.

And let’s, at that point obviously, cos it wasn’t unique to Kenya, you’ve mentioned other countries in East Africa, I mean, did you sense at that time that it was only a matter of time before something like this happened?

No, I said this in 1955, in a meeting I said, ‘if you don’t behave yourselves, you’ll be thrown out like the Indians were thrown out of Burma after independence.’ And there were there many Hindus thrown out of Pakistan. I said, ‘this is your fate if you don’t throw your lot with these African inspirations, you your fate is going to be one day thrown out.’ And yet in ’67 when I wrote letters to Indian leaders, 16 of them, that this is coming, I told them what Enoch Powell was saying, I told them what Duncan Sands was doing, I told them what XXXX Clough was doing. I said, ‘beware, some of the extreme elements of British society are turning against us now, they don’t want such a mass of people coming here.’ Told them they may be British citizens, and I remember every single leader said, ‘you’re wrong, it will not happen.’ And it happened.

Do you think they were too comfortable? Or do you think -

No, they, they thought the British would never do it. They were still rubbing shoulders with the white man because it boosted their bloody ego. And you know what happened was that it happened in reality, and we received so many Kenyan donations here, and then came a ban. A quota of 1,500 families only, you read the books, they’ll tell you. And then you know I was working for this all party Parliamentary Committee on Citizenship, John Leicester, David Steele, Martin Reynolds, we went to Kenya and conducted a survey on the Asian community, and we came to the conclusion that 1/3 of the Indians wanted to go to India, only 2/3’s were UK XXXX the rest were India XXXX. We realised the Indian Government had banned them from going into India, there were a mass of people in Nairobi, waiting to go.

So, sort of stuck in the middle essentially? In purgatory?

Stuck in the middle.

Erm, let’s flash forward, not too long, but when Amin came in power. I mean did you sense erm that Amin, Amin will go down in the volumes of history as being a very populist leader, certainly on this topic, he certainly played of the populist sentiment.

When he came to power I remember telling a few MPs in Parliament that the British have made a mistake, they’ve propped up this boxer, this uneducated idiot as President because they wanted to oust Obote, who had pursued a socialist policy. And they didn’t want him. And the British propped him. And I have told a few MPs, ‘this will cost you dearly, because you have chosen the wrong man, and your security services are absolutely wrong.’ And was I not proved right?

You most certainly were.

This idiot had a dream, he never had a dream.

Well this is the next question, wasn’t it? I’ll throw in a quick question before you, where were you when you heard about the 90 day announcement?

Oh, I was in London.

You were in London?

I was already talking to press being interviewed, and on the day of the expulsion I remember I was very aggressive on television and on radio, I was saying that, ‘we will fight, we will bring Indians in small dingies and load them on the South Bank of Britain like the Jews did, I said, ‘we won’t give up, this is our land and we will come.’ And er I remember one very dear freind of mine XXXX XXXX, he was the leader of the Daily Telegraph, Bill XXXX. Telling me, ‘Praful, calm down, calm down, this is not the language that you use. I’m going to invite you on Monday to meet the Minister, Home Minister, you will talk.’ So I said, ‘Talk what? You bring anything you want to bring, proposals, let’s discuss.’ And he said, ‘You know what? Later I’m playing golf with Lord Aldington and Edward Heath, just leave it. We know what has happened, you know the inner most thinking of Labour were Conservative Party.’ And I said, ‘Look, I don’t trust you guys, because you’ll just bullshit us, and make us stateless and hand us over to the United Nations. But this time round my people must come here. And no Kenya-isation ban, no quota, everybody has to come.’

What was your reaction when you heard that Idi Amin had made that ridiculous speech where he, I think he quoted a dream hadn’t he? I mean I’ve, you can tell me now, I’ve heard many different conspiracies of why he passed it, I mean the obvious point to me was he was a populist leader who tried to buy into a populist form of governance essentially. But you know I have interviewed certain members of the Ugandan Asian community who said he wanted to marry a Bollywood actress? That was one that -

Not a Bollywood actress, but the wife of a big industrialist.

Oh it was an industrialist, I had heard it was a Bollywood actress. I mean when you first heard, obviously you said you were in London, in dialogue at the time with certain members of the government, representatives of the government, was it a surprise to you at all knowing Amin, knowing what was going on in the rest of Africa?

I did not believe that Amin had a dream, but you know one of Amin’s staff was a very dear friend of mine, and he had left two months before this happened. And I rang him, and he said to me in confidence that, ‘for the last six months, we’ve been preparing a paper for the Government to expel all the Indians.’ It was a deliberate policy of the President’s office, Amin wanted to do something very populist. By that time he was frustrated by the British who were not helping him, and he - he was getting irritated. And he was he was he was trying to impose a strong Army rule in Africa, he had already murdered all the democratic institutions. This - this information I got, and I came running to Whitehall, and I made sure it reached the Foreign Minister, the Foreign Secretary. At that point I was quietly told, ‘don’t worry, our boys are working. We’re going to speak to Jo XXXX and calm him down.’ Nothinh happened, this was June of 1972.

Wow.

I cannot go wrong. And what happened? 2^nd, 3^rd of March, 3^rd of August, out!

So, you were probably the least surprised person [LAUGHS].

I wasn’t surprised, I was expecting it. Except the – except the establishment wasn’t believing me.

I can imagine how frustrating that must be.

Yes, and I was never part of the establishment, I was anti-establishment anyway. I was a strong Labour man, you know?

Yeah.

And I was trying to become a Labour MP, so naturally thereafter we had a meeting on Monday, XXXX in th Ministry and all that, and then I was part of the establishment – and I didn’t know it. But I did, very nearly I became part of them, I was sitting with under-secretaries, deputy secretaries, giving a briefing on the communities in Uganda, the different make-up of the Indian community in Lohana, Patel, Brahmins, I did all kinds of things to tell them that these people would come here. And what they expect from you. And then suddenly, the wheels of decision making moved, and I must say a word of admiration for one single British politician, his name is Edward Heath. The bloody courage. He fought his corner through Robert Carr in the Conservative Party, Enoch Powell spoke, and party was scared of what he was going to say, and just before his speech we were both asked to participate in the BBC interview. He came to the studio, now this is interesting yeah? He came to the studio and he told the editor, ‘I will not sit with Mr Patel, I wish to be interviewed separately.’ And I was so embarrassed, I said, ‘Well what a man, and how rude he is,’ you know? And we were waiting for 15 minutes in the room and he told me, “Mr Patel, I’m very sorry, don’t get offended, you know you and I will never agree, and I don’t want a public spat with you, so you say your bit on your own, and I’ll say my bit on it. I respect what your doing.” And then I learned, he knows more about India than I do. I was impressed, and he was so nice to me. He got up and made a coffee for me, I was a bit nervous talking to this man you know? But he was a most civilised Englishman, I have never ever met in my life.

He spoke 7 languages I believe, didn’t he? Trained in the classics?

He spoke so many languages including Urdu.

Yes, Urdu, he was fluent.

He used a few words on me. And he said “Mr. Patel I bet you don’t know pure Hindu,” I said, “in Urdu”. I said no, I know Hindustani, but not Urdu. But I said “I understood what you just said, but if you speak too much I’ll have to ask you the meaning of some words.”

[LAUGHS]. Wow, erm so ...

And as he left the studio after the interview he shook hands with me. “Good luck” he said to me.

In saying that, do you think it was about not having a public spat? Or do you think he realised you could have asked him some questions that he couldn’t answer, or he couldn’t comfortably answer?

That’s right. But anyway what the BBC did was to, between his story and mine, they ran a story about the expulsion of the British High Commissioner [PAUSES]. But, he made a very good speech though, in his defence, in his argument. But the Tory Party did not accept. Robert Powell er Carr was brilliant.

I think he took a chance didn’t he Powell, that day. He took a risk, a very high collateral risk, and fortunately he seems to have lost in terms of his own personal career, you know. But I think the legacy ...

But had he been alive today, Greig I’m telling you, where are the rivers of blood? Today London is the most multiracial city in the world.

You have to realise as well, I mean you know the lady in his constituency that he kept mentioning.

Yes.

He kept talking about that lady.

That lady.

Do you know the truth about that lady?

No.

They, ironically of all the newspapers who actually found out that got to the bottom of who it may be was the actually the Daily Mail, about three or four years ago. And they got a researcher on the case and I forget her name, but she was a lady who lived about six or seven doors down from the street across from Enoch Powell.

An Indian lady?

Erm, no she was a white lady. But he had made on as if she was a well respected member of the community, elderly white lady, who had been to the point where she was scared to leave her own door, you know people are throwing trash on her erm on her garden, groups of black men are making ...

He spoke about it?

Yes he referred to it a couple of times, and he said he always mentioned this one lady. And it turns out it was actually a lady who erm actively used to rent out properties to migrant workers.

[LAUGHS].

And what had happened was, she had got into, she was also known as, I’m going to say this without being offensive, she was, if I say a ‘loose lady? I think you’ll get, what I understand, what I mean?

Yes.

She basically fell in love with one of the black migrant workers that she let stop in her house, and they’d had a dispute, and she was, she was also a drunk, she was well known as liking a drink And one day she came onto her street and she’d thrown his stuff out, and she was drunk, and she’d obviously made a complaint to Enoch Powell, erm because her heart had been broken by a black man, and that was the truth.

This came out in the Daily Mail?

Yeah, it was in the Mail. I think the Mail and the Independent did two pieces but ...

Do you have a cutting of it?

Yeah, I can send you the link, I’ll send you the link. They don’t quite go into that much detail, but they do refer to her as being a bit of a drunk, and she basically ran a hostel for people who came in, not just migrants, but at the time Wolverhampton in the mid-60s, a lot of the people who couldn’t afford to have their own house, or could only share one room, who’d just arrived in town would be migrants. Normally from different parts of the globe. So she was recruiting migrants to actually make extra money to rent out her property, and she got her heart broken one day, got into a dispute with someone who was living with her and suddenly she was used as this sort of representation of Anglo community of Britain suddenly rejecting the foreigners and migrants.

I’ll tell you something. I wrote to Enoch Powell, and I said, ‘Mr Powell, you were cabinet minister in the MacMillan Government from 1962 to 65.’

He played a proactive role in bringing foreign nurses to the country at the time?

Yes. And I told him that the very cabinet you were a member of, there was a common Immigrants Act in place, you admitted 280,000 vouchers to unskilled workers from the Commonwealth.

What time period would that be?

’62-65.

That was in the three years?

When Wilson came, and then Wilson sent them on a XXXX mission to curb immigration. So I said to him, I said, ‘look, 280,000 multiplied by four, you have taken a million people, when you yourself could have stopped it. And you make these kind of speeches today, you should be ashamed of yourself.’ That made me angry, you know.

But as - as I think we both realise Mr. Patel, it’s - it’s it was the most purist form of populist manoeuvring ever, wasn’t it? To suddenly turn your back on a policy that you actually ...

But he was misguided.

I think, you know ...

If he was alive today I wonder what he would say?

I think I I I keep… people often talk about that fictitious sort of erm you know, the dinner party who would you invite? If had a dinner party I’d probably invite one man, and that would me, me - me and Enoch Powell sitting opposite each other, having a meal.

[LAUGHS].

And yeah, I’d want to open those curtains and point out to what’s happening outside, and say “is your legacy this?” But I think ...

And what’s more, he loved eating Indian curry, he told me in the studio.

As I said ...

So he was telling me, ‘I’m not anti-your people. But England is too small, and we can’t have too many of you here.’

What was the population of England back then, compared to today?

48 million or something, I think.

And there’s over 60 million today?

And you had over a million and a half immigrants, largely West Indians.

And I don’t know about you Mr. Patel, but if I put out of the window there’s enough space even in London for us to walk about.

[LAUGHS].

We aren’t on top of each other are we? [LAUGHS]. Erm, in terms of, I mean, that period, I mean in general there was quite a lot of turmoil, when you erm, in terms of the announcement, you obviously had friends and family in Uganda I presume, I mean were you concerned for their safety?

I had many relatives, concerned about their safety, and we were hearing stories of African looting them, some Africans killing them in small places, and one was even fearful of leaving the country, and what can they leave, going out with their suitcases, and there was a bit of a delay to implement the expulsion of women from Africa, that is when the first flight came over on the 18^th of September, 1972. We were at Stanstead airport, myself, Sir Charles Cunningham, John Pressley and all that, and we had already by then opened all these camps, Greenham and everything together. And we were all planning at the fastest possible speed the resettlement programmes, and er in the Uganda resettlement board I was inducted as a member.

And you were the only erm non-British ...?

Asian member, the only Asian member. I pleaded with the Government to have more Indians, they didn’t, they said, ‘no, lets just have you.’ And I wondered here a Labour politician, who has been a militant activist, and why are they having me? And then I objected to Sir Charles Cunningham becoming Chairman. I said, ‘why are you picking this man because he was a permanent secretary of Rab Butler, and therefore the architect of the Commonwealth Immigrants Act.’ But I was told on no uncertain terms by David Lane, ‘look Praful don’t make that mistake, here is a man who will deliver. You have a big shouldered responsibility. You want people to settle quickly, you need money, you need jobs, you need housing. This man knows how to twist the arms of the Whitehall Mandarins you know?’

So I’m guessing perhaps you had to bite your tongues a few times?

Well, then I met him. What a kindly man. He was the most lovely Scotsman I had ever met in my life. And then I saw a list of the board members, I was delighted that Mark Bonham Carter was there, Lord Tornikoff was there, and leading chairmen of the, kind of all the boroughs of England was there. Many many great people of some weight. So it was a very high powered, weighted board, and I - I made sure the terms of reference were checked by me before I joined, and I made sure I changed [COUGHS] a couple of clauses in the terms of reference, in terms of the financial resources, as we XXXX a section on it. And I clearly told the Whitehall that XXXX have remained in camps still, Egyptian refugees had lasted in camps almost fifteen years. I don’t want my people to last in camps more than five years, at the maximum.

Which is you know five years in its self is a long time to be almost lost, because you know you have no permanent situation.

But I did say, ‘our people are very enterprising, very hard working, they’ll get out and want to earn money. So I knew the psyche and the DNA of these people. Give them the opportunity they are looking for.

Yeah.

And my God the resettlement program was the most successful ever undertaken in Britain.

Again this is something we’ll go onto perhaps in a couple more questions but I would, I’d wholeheartedly agree with that as I said when I first sat down. Erm I think, which is why it is so important to celebrate this commemoration.

Yes.

It is because even today it is so vital to prove to naysayers and those who do oppose immigration that immigration is a good thing, it can work, and different societies can adapt and work around each other and the outcome will be this great multicultural society we have today. So I think, you know, we need as many examples and case studies as it were, of success, and we need to get this out in the public, to disseminate into the public’s perspective and what a perfect story the Ugandan Asian community in Britain is.

Of course.

Erm, in terms, I think leads very well on to this, because I want to talk about culture. I don’t really like the word ‘assimilation’ or ‘cultural adaption’, but you know it is a way of measuring the success story of a migrant group generally. I mean, I personally think assimilation can be used as a very positive word, I think it can also be a very negative construct as well, you know you can’t force people to change, you can force people to adapt and you know almost manoeuvre around each other, but not to completely change. But at the same time, can you tell me what you think is in the psyche or the spirit of those 38,000 people who left Uganda, and the 20,000 people that came to Britain, what is in their hearts or their DNA that allowed them to be so successful, and become this great success story that we’re actually talking about now? What is, if you can get to the bottom of it, what is it that stands out?

It’s the, it’s the family structure of the Indian community, they want to do well, they want to earn, and that DNA when it was translated into various people who were sent to various parts of England. And a family would go somewhere, we would give housing to them, one of them have got a job, the families are so articulate enough to get their or daughter into a job. Then you have a family that earns money in one pot, because sons and daughters gives their money to the father, giving XXXX money, pocket money. But that kind of individual collection of wealth within a family meant that in the space of two years I’d seen Ugandan Asians buying refrigerators, buying new television sets, colouring their property, bringing in furniture. Another two years, the elder son goes and opens a corner shop. By that time they’ve educated his sister or his younger brother, who then qualifies to become a solicitor or a chartered accountant. The individual British parents, they aspire for success of their children, this is the most important thing them, be it in India or anywhere. I always wanted my nephews to become doctors, you know, engineers, and do something ambitious, and we would talk about, and they would see that I’ve got my mission to do so and so, such and such thing. Now that is how individual families were transferred to over hundreds of thousands of families, you have suddenly people in the first ten years becoming slowly wealthy. Shopkeepers didn’t have one shop, they suddenly had half a dozen shops, and later they would open a cash and carry, you couldn’t believe it. They didn’t have a car, they bought a small car, ten years hence they bought a Mercedes Benz. They wanted to just improve their lot, by sheer hard work.

Do you think, I mean, do you think culturally a lot of Ugandan Asians were of that merchant class anyway so perhaps they had the means?

They weren’t merchant class.

Were they not?

In India, in Uganda we called them Dukawala D-U-K-A-W-A-L-A. What is Dukawala, they used to say all these people are dukawalas, shopkeepers, having little shops in all the provinces and districts of Uganda. They were basically traders.

OK.

It’s like Napoleon said, ‘that England are a nation of shopkeepers.’ Do you not remember your history? So these were the people who were traders, and some who had done well in Uganda wanted to XXXX here, and able to raise loans from the banks. New ownership loans, to get these things going. Another thing, if you didn’t have a home and you were in a rented home, very simple, you… people bought homes within one years or two years of settlement. How? Mortgage system, they used it. But when they didn’t have the deposit, ‘Oh Praful-bai, can you give £500, £1000, I’ll pay you back in four weeks.’ I would help ...

So a strong network?

Network of the community is solid. A Lohara would help a Lohara, a Patel would help a Patel, they’ll stand by them. So that community spirit is there, inside the churches, in the temples, in the social halls, and slowly they all organised themselves into little communities and started to support each other. And the other people had come all together from Kenya or from India, they were helping the Ugandans also, because people are related you know, or become friends. But it is quite - quite normal for one Indian family to borrow 5,000 borrowed to put down a deposit on the house, and pay back, because you see the wealth of the whole family mattered.

Not the individual?

In English homes, in English homes, probably you and you won’t give it to your parents, but you’ll go and have your own little flat and live there. But here the spirit was to use the money for the benefit of the family as a unit.

The collective unit, not the individual?

The collective. And I noticed this over the period of the first twenty years, when we celebrated the 25^th Silver Jubilee celebration, right? And that was paid for by Mr. Mandvani, one single family. The service at Westminster Cathedral with Edward Heath. We did one major lunch, and we did one major meeting in the XXXX Temple in Neasden, where XXXX came, Mandvani brought him, I was there when he spoke. He said said, ‘please come back and help me build my country, I’ll give you repossession of your properties and assets. I also spoke at that meeting, and I reminded XXXX of his commitment. Anyway, things happened, a lot of Indians have gone to Kampala. There are now 700 families of British citizenship went and acquired very cleverly oil mills, cotton mills, XXXX, sugar factories, this, that, and have become billionaires now.

Yeah. Is it the Negrecha brothers?

Negrecha brothers.

Yeah the Negrecha brothers, they’re opening up a foundation of er back in Uganda apparently.

Yes.

Yes, I was actually down their cash and carry last week erm I’ll hopefully get an interview with one of them in the proceeding weeks erm.

Who?

Erm, basically there’s a guy called Ashwin who works for the brothers, he runs the cash and carry, he’s not Ugandan Asian himself but a lot of the workers are actually Ugandan Asians so we’re going to go down to the factory with our flyers and chat to them, and have a – get a word with them hopefully. But I did notice, I mean, a lot of the Ugandan Asians who I have spoken to, and have asked if they were ever tempted to go back, and seems that no inclination, they’ve made up their minds.

No, not the average man. Cos where would they go? Like my father had a house, I saw it the other day. My heart was bleeding, because in that house 27 people are living, seven different families, they’ve ruined the whole house. The room I used to use, I nearly cried when I saw it. Point is, if I want to go and acquire that property I would have to evict all those people.

Yes, a house of 27 people?

It will cost 20,000 dollars, 20,000 U.S. dollars, then I’ll get it, what is the value of that house? It’s completely finished. So a lot of average people did want it, but wealthy people who could afford solicitors and accountants, and were made wealthier, they’ve gone and taken it and turned the corner, quickly. They are running their mills now, oil mills, sugar factories and other factories, you know c-c-c-lothes, hosiery, the making of clothes et cetera they’re doing very well because you know what they did? They drew in money from the World Bank fund that was available for repossession. Overnight they could become millionaires, very simply, simple manipulation of books. I have an industry, I got $200,000 to buy new equipment and machinery, I’ll import it from Germany or from Japan and the importation XXXX advice to get cash from those guys, backhanded. So that’s the first cash I’ve made, and then successfully, they’ve already, within a year, three or four years of repossession their original loss they made in 1972 has been made good.

However, that’s not quite the same story for the thousands of others that arrived with £50 in their back pocket?

Yes, and they’re not going back, they don’t want to go back.

Yeah. Would you say that erm, let’s go back, you said you were there when the first plane arrived at, was it Stanstead the first plane, I presume?

Yes.

I mean, can you perhaps describe looking into the eyes of those first people who walked down those steps. I mean what ...

Totally bewildered. It typical Indian, er English weather that 18^th of September as the Winter was setting in. And they were cold, bewildered, nervous, as they landed, the volunteers from the Women Association gave them blankets, there was some woollen clothes given out to them, they were offered a nice hot cup of tea, and biscuits and things. Well it was very well organised first flight. Subsequently also it was done, then they were taken by buses to the camp. See by this time we had a whole range of staff in all the camps. I must tell you a little bit back story, that when we met first meeting at the Ugandan Resettlement Board I said that I didn’t want my people to stay longer than five years, so we must work very hard to get them out. And there’s a recruitment drive for the people in the camps and everywhere. And I was amazed, the Whitehall machine moved, to find retired British civil servants from XXXX, from Rhodesia, and finding their background that is ...

[TELEPHONE RINGS].

Civil servant from the Commonwealth Office, from the Colonial Office, they dug out people I’d never seen before ...

[TELEPHONE RINGS].

The process of recruitment, I was sitting on it, as the board Indian member, and they, they would just find the right people for the right job. There were local people who used to speak a bit of Gujarati, who knew the background of the Indian community, this that and everything else, and had a liberal mind.

Cos I mean it’s a logistical nightmare isn’t it, you know, to try and…?

Yeah, but you know before, such hundreds of thousands of people lined up for the jobs, and we recruited all these staff, and these women’s organizations, Royal Women’s –what is it called- Voluntary? They were a brilliant group of women who runs ...

I know the Women’s Institute?

No, no. I can see the board there reporting their names you know?

Ok, I can see that.

They brought in lots of volunteers and people, they were all paid. But the speed with which it went, it was remarkable. And amongst some of the people I recruited, were Provincial Commissioners, and District Commissioners in the old days, and knew how the Indians tick. Do you understand?

Yes, of course.

They knew exactly, and that was the beauty of it. This is the British at their best. I’ll speak about it in one of the speeches I make, the British at their best. Because we have to say a huge thank you, to both the government and the British people, that they opened their doors. Every night this Idi Amin threatened the British people on television, ‘I will teach a lesson to the Queen, I’ll make her beg when she comes to see me,’ and this that and another thing, you know? It really made the British people very angry, they felt very insulted, and the more the merrier, I said “let this bloody idiot Amin talk every night.” It helps us you see? It helps us to create goodwill and sympathy. But - but, let’s face it, that whether there’s racism in Britain or not, Britain dealing with refugees have been the best country in the world.

I think you described it as impeccable, right? I read in an interview?

Impeccable, it is impeccable.

Erm, I mean, I find that interesting as well because I think, again during the interviews I’ve had so far, and reading previous interviews of Ugandan Asians, erm a lot of people always want to, especially because of the time period, we’ve talked about Enoch Powell, we’ve talked about Callaghan and the Kenyans and these issues, and you know the reality is, late ‘70s, late ‘60s, certainly the early ‘70s you had Stormfront coming out, you had the BNP, you had the National Front starting to flex their muscles and actually do a lot of activity on street level, even within mainstream politics. I mean you look at ’72 in Ilford Essex where I work there were the first councils being voted in for the BNP and the NF. So during this time period, what I’ve found is I mean a lot of people, interviewers and I include myself in this, a lot of the time to make the interview more interesting we angle to see whether there were any perceptions of racism, or prejudice amongst the Ugandan Asians as soon as they arrives, did you face any prejudice, did you meet any skinheads off the plane? And not one person has actually said, or sort of dealt on it, they’ve said, ‘there were aspects of prejudice, at that time period it was to be expected, however in the main, in the majority, the British people were very welcoming, whether it be the governor, a politician or the man on the street. Would you agree with that?

Absolutely, they were so welcoming. There was an overwhelming response from the Ugandan Resettlement Board, our switchboard never stopped, ‘can you please send an Asian family to our town? We have nobody.’ In all sort of - Devon, can you imagine? Norfolk, can you imagine? I was amazed the kind of response that was coming, people in the industries used to phone us, ‘oh I’ve got a job for a Ugandan Asian, could we employ them?’ But as a board we took a view, that if there is a job in - in a Lancashire small city, we won’t send one lonely Ugandan family, we will send two or three of them. So there is some connection that they could meet together and do something. So we were doing the resettlement program in a nicely organised manner. And you know another thing the – the - the Ugandan Asians were annoyed that Leceister City Council put all the bloody ads you know?

That was my next question [BOTH LAUGH].

You know, it … it the people arriving here they said, ‘where is Leceister?’ They used to ask me in the camps, you know? I said, ‘why? Don’t go there. You don’t want to go there.’ ‘Oh, but I have one friend, look here is the address, can you connect me the phone?’ I said, ‘Go to the desk and get a phone, but don’t go there, it’s not a place to go.’

What was your reaction to that?

What could I do? Because it was the reaction of a XXXX report. Yes, remember XXXX in 1968 put a ban on people taking money on a holiday, he put a limit of 50 quid, per person, and I remember very clearly, the man that many families who didn’t go outside Devon, or away for a holiday, they wanted to go to Portugal and Spain. But the family will take 200 quid with them, or 500 quid depending on how many members there are. This is the mentality of the people; if you bend something, they want it. So it was this adverse effect.

So you actually think a lot-

Publicity!

Yes, he drew a lot of attention. I mean, have you spoken to anyone, erm, sort of from the current Leicester council recently? Because that seems to be a little bit of an embarrassment almost of the council in 68. Was it actually a Labour council?

Yes.

It was, wasn’t it?

And when we went there, myself, Charles XXX and Tom XXX, I was embarrassed as a Labour member. I was really embarrassed.

What did they say?

And by then, in 68, I resigned my Labour membership. And I was thinking of rejoining. I didn’t rejoin until 76.

Yeah, I read somewhere…

So you know, it’s – it’s XXX embarrass the Labour politicians, you know. They are supposed to have different values, and ethics.

I hate to say it, but I probably expect it.

And they spoke so badly about the Indian community and the Asian community and they lecture us about bending them to Leicester, and I remember telling them “how can we bend? England is a free country, you cannot have within England different tier system with people not willing to XXX the city, how do you manage it?”

It’s short term as well, because let’s face it, I don’t think Leicester would be functioning as a city just today if it wasn’t for the Ugandan Asians arriving. You go to certain parts…

Believe me, it was a most violent city then. Growing with Pakistanis and Indian people, and these people are XXX to it. And these days I would have thought that these days, if you look at – I haven’t seen the figures- but if you look at Leicester’s development growth, it would be much higher than the British rate of growth. I remember illegal order. Completely hopeless in 1958-9, to when you walk down the road, what do you see?

Jewellers, cash and carries, XXX shops, Gujarat shops…

I went to Southall in 1958 in a weekend, and to eat my first Punjabi meal, and I was quite amazed that Southall had started regeneration; and what happened to Southall?

We know exactly what happened with Southall.

And I mean, all these people have contributed to the growth and the development of Britain as a whole.

Hanslow as well, you could look at that.

Everywhere in every way, you go to Belham, Crawley, I mean these in Newham. East London was terrible in those days. You thought you were coming into a third world country. But today you look at these streets and development, today Indians are in property, biggest developers. Not only cash and carry, but they are industrialists now. And they are doing so many good things in pharmacy, in sweet shops, and…

Across a big set of skilled professions, certainly. I mean, you know… growing up I was obviously from North Hampton, and I would say certainly of all my friends, the ones who are the most, certainly the most successful on paper within their relative professions are all my Indian friends. Every one of them.

I’m an investment advisor, I work in investments, you go to the city, and look at the financial institutions, stock exchanges, insurance companies, and you look at the structure of the staff. The middle are all Indians. Pakistanis. So many Ugandan Asians have risen to the top in this city now. In the city. Director XXXX, and they are doing extremely well. And all this happened in the span of forty years. That is remarkable.

No, it really is, I mean I’m currently writing up a project, it’s a very mall project, we’re going to do an overview of the German community in Stratford, and going back, and it took the German community in Stratford was there from the fifteenth century, sixteenth century, they’re Palantine Protestants that were thrown out, repressed and thrown out, and over 15000 fled to London. It took them four hundred, five hundred years just to be, and even then they were only just the tradesman class, they were all working in butchers and bakers. And that’s you know, the German mentality and culture is very efficient, and they have a successful mind as well, yet it took those15000 of them 500 years to establish themselves in London. Forty years? It’s unprecedented, almost, which is why, again, I’ll keep making a point of really celebrating-

I’d received this sort of threat in 68, that uh… they would kill me. I received many threats.

I’m sure you did.

In one designed for me, was in XXX envelope, went to the wrong person in East London. It was in the papers if you look at it. And I used to get so many abusive calls they tried to stop at night the calls coming in. So I had much racist experience, but the biggest show of experience is when in 1964. I finished studies, I was living in Gower Street, on the corner. I saw this flat being advertised, I want to buy it. It was being advertised for £5000, when you’re sitting down, which is over 60. I went to buy it, and the agent said “no, it’s sold”. Now, one of the local Labour Party members was Mr Ford, Eddie Ford. A nice fellow. He was the XXX in this building. He met me on the streets, he said “Praful, I want to tell you something. They didn’t give you the flat because you’re Indian.” And that boiled my blood. I said “how dare he does it!” Right? So I went to look up – I said “who owns the building?” he said “National XXX Institutions”, one of the big insurance companies in the city. I go to the Times library, looked up XXX, and found the chaiman of the company. I wrote him a letter in handwriting. It’s a nice letter. I said “I must come and meet you, because I was being against racial discrimination, and I don’t expect this from such an eminent institutions as yours.” Two days later I got a phonecall from the secretary with a very English voice, you know. The woman told me “he’d be delighted to me you”, me and my colleagues. And I was thrilled. And you I know I have to dress well, and I was carrying a little umbrella with me. It was the thing to do in England, you know.

Of course; when in Rome.

So I went to see him. And as I entered the room, it was a large room, you know? And he got up from his desk to walk round and shook my hand “XXX, nice to meet you, come and sit down here. Will you have a cup of coffee?” I said “if you have it, I’ll have it.” So I thought ‘this is good, now he’s offered me a coffee, if not the bloody flat.’ [Laughs] He said…

That wasn’t a £5000 cup of coffee, was it?

So I told him what had happened to me, he said “I am ashamed. My grandfather was in Puna. I have many memories in India in my house, and I really want to profusely apologise that you got this treatment at the hand of our agents. I’ve ordered an inquiry into it, I’m going to expel them.” But he said “young man, you’re so young, have you got 5000 quid?” I said “yes sir. Do you want it today? I’ll pay you.” He said “you seem to have this wealth with you at this age?”, I said “yes, I come from a very humble middle class family in Uganda.” He said “the flat is yours. Take it. Do you have enough money to furnish it?” I said “yes”.

And did he ever come round your flat to have a quick cup of –

No, he never came round, but I think the two years later I tried to look for him, but he retired. But I cannot forget, here was a – you know, when I walk into his room, I saw a bloody XXX and a XXXhead, and I said to myself “this is a pretty toy, I bet he’s going to give me the flat”, but you know he was such a nice man.

Do you think… because I mean, it’s interesting you say that because I’m not, I’m not particularly proud to admit this, but I remember certain – older members of my family, and it’s almost become a little but of a stereotype in England… if somebody… your next door neighbour died or sold the house and the ‘for sale’ sign comes up, the estate agent would pull up with two members of the family looking to view the house, they’d open the curtains, and you’d- the older members of my family, particularly my Gran, she’d be like “oh, it’s an Indian couple here to view the property. Oh, the house prices are going to drop in the area” because an Indian family was going to move in. And I was sort of sitting there, at the age of four, thinking “so what happens? If Indian communities come close to us? Does the cost of our house drop?” And there always seemed to be that perception that –

[Phone rings]

That is one thing. When I came to this block, I found all the resistance was from either doctors, or solicitors, actors, and I wondered if this is XXX despair. There’s not many souls here. But you know, they are very nice, when I first we went to the XXX’s meeting, they were very nice to me, everybody. Everybody came and talked to me. Cos I saw them to me – I looked a very distant person, one of them. I was all “morning, hi, lovely day”, I checked with the old ladies, and things like that, and you know it’s quite settled. So no problem.

But I mean, would you accept that for every one of you, Mr Patel, there’s all… perhaps they wouldn’t view other members of the Indian community in the same way. You know, because it seems to me you’re very adept to sort of… erm…

To the British view of life.

Yes, definitely. It’s something that although you oppose many aspects of the British sort of legacy across the world, but there’s also, it seems to me that you’re almost enchanted by certain aspects of British culture. Would you agree with that?

Definitely, because when I came when I was a student, I was delighted by Paul Betany’s group, and through the Vegetarian Society, people inviting me to come and spend Easter with them. Christmas with them. I’m visiting a place like Marlborough for my Christmas two years. Nice English families, they made sure I was vegetarian, not eating eggs and that, and I had exposure. Much of the Indian community right now want that kind of exposure with the British people. Alright? Now, if you make an effort, I sometimes pick on people; make an effort to try, and come closer to the British people. Like the Jewish people did. Don’t give up your Indian-ness, don’t give your Hindu religion, keep it. But at the same time, mix with the mainstream of British society in a secular way. So you’ll belong to the British institutions. Unfortunately, the way the migration has happened, we have these pockets of… pockets of Indian communities, Pakistani communities, I mean I can tell you there are pockets of Chinese XXX, now all this has happened. Now, you can’t talk of assimilation, that’s not possible. You talk about integrating. But there has to be some program by the government, by the social sector, and – and – to belong. But I’ll tell you, you get Ugandan Asians or Kenyan Asians that are living in Wemberley and Eeling, and all these pockets, but where is the money? You see, the really- in Hartsforshire, in Surrey. Fine enough, they’re all moving out, and they’re beginning to integrate. I’m not about one or two families, I know hundreds of families who have moved out. Not true, for instance, not HorXXX, not XXX, or some area where all the rich Indians live. It’s interesting because all these pockets have developed; luxury flats, luxury little bungalos, houses, people who came from Uganda are not living in style. Would you then be envious of the others, you know?

[Aside conversation with a woman in another language]

There’s a whole India there.

The complete region.

All over the –

Yeah, I mean, I know Manor Park is a little bit less, you know

Less, less underlying.

It’s very similar in Birmingham, you have the Erdington area of Birmingham, which is sort of like the houses you see there.

You look at Birmingham, they are all on the outskirts of Birmingham.

You get into the suburbs

What a lovely home, XXX apartments in Birmingham. So they’re moving. People in Leicester to Aldby. People this these areas… it comes a very – very much the area, and a lot of the residents are Indians.

And it’s a part of the natural process, isn’t it, and from the areas that they’ve left, the next generation of migrants will move in. You know, it’s a natural occurrence and then hopefully, in a few years’ time, with hard work, a bit of luck and perseverance, they will have the opportunity to then move up the social ladder. I mean, and I think that’s perhaps the joy of when you went back to England being sort of, impeccable in many ways in terms of embracing new migrants traditionally, but also, it’s not just about embracing them when they arrive, it’s also allowing certain aspects of society to allow them to better their own lot, if they work, and work hard. I think that’s the joy of Britain as well, to a certain extent. I’ve lived in America for a quite a long time, and there are – it’s not what’s people tell you the ‘nation of immigrants’ myth they have, they now have a black president, the reality is there are that many structures in place in American society which will block you from climbing up the social ladder. I think we do have them in Britain, but not perhaps as much as over in countries such as the US. I think, you know, you can with perseverance, with hard work, and a little bit of luck, you can actually climb that ladder, and I think the Ugandan Asian community and the Indian community in general certainly prove that.

I remember on the fortieth anniversary, we had two Hindu XXX services, one of which would tell you his life story, his name is XXX XXX. Everyone around the world knows of him doing this. Then we had- we now had the Hispanic community doing the Thanksgiving dinner, and Farsis were going to come.

Okay, yeah.

Then we have an event in Leicester in the Leicester Cathedral at Thanksgiving. We did the Westminster, and I wanted to do something in Leicester for this community. And who accepted the invitation? Enoch Nichols.

He heard there was free food going on!

XXX of York, fifteenth of June. So you know the events happening…

I’d like to tell me about these events, because I have a lot of flexibility, and I would love to perhaps, sort of –

I can send you a business plan tomorrow.

Yes! Yeah. I’d love that.

And you know what, we want to, we want to do a big galleria, and I met the prime minister in erm, Downing Street.

I saw the pictures.

Oh, you did?

Yes, yes I’ve witnessed them.

It’s very funny because I XXX XXX going to Downing Street XXX Diwali party, I had just been to the Labour Party headquarters.

The more I read about your biography and sort of your, let’s say, sort of the social conscience that you’ve developed to fight for fellow man, and I did wonder how you’d mentioned earlier about uncomfortable bedfellows. I did wonder what was going through your mind when you should hands with him – he almost gave you a hug, I think, if what I saw was there…

Of course, so he’s going to come up to the galleria.

Interesting. Amazing, obviously we’ll open up the contact with that. In terms, I mean, this is probably a good opportunity to go on to – you’ve mentioned a museum, you mentioned this idea of legacy, I mean, let’s talk about, and I spoke to you about this earlier on the phone slightly, about the second generation and third generation. And I’ve interviewed Ugandan Asian – the perfect one would be Visha ViXXX, who did the documentary show that I told you about on Radio 4, and she didn’t even know whether, if her mum was born in Uganda or not. She found out afterwards she was actually Kenyan, oh, no, she was Tanzanian, sorry, but she knew her dad was. And he was never actually expelled, he came over in 1970, so he came a couple years before, but a lot of her family, her dad’s family were expelled. But she didn’t actually know, and this is a girl who is very well educated, very aware of her own family’s existence and background, yet she saw- she’s very unsure. Do you feel there is that sense of loss or lack of awareness in the second or third generation about what the first generation went through, the guys that arrived here?

It is why I am saying “let’s celebrate the fortieth anniversary”, so the generation doesn’t forget, so we planted some legacy projects, like a museum. Other legacy projects is um, we want to do a commemorative book. XXX XXX XXX that have settled. It’s very identical to a book that I picked up in Dubai with the Indian community Dubai has made. I want something like this to be made, a coffee table book.

I’m going to read this through, just so it’s on copy: so it’s “India and the UAE in celebration of a legendary friendship”, and that’s the new Venu Raj Amany.

That is why we told the government that we wanted to do a commemorative book and a children book. That’s why we were very interested in your project. And like access to material, confidentiality is maintained, no problem. And we could reach an agreement, so we are happy to be able to do this project. This one was finished this year, think of the money for this project, and we want to be able to have these by the year 2014, 2015. A heavy coffee table book. Apart from a few political chapters about the history of India and Uganda, history of Indians in Africa, about what happened to them over the years, I’ve got many academic friends Professor TunXXX, all these guys who will write these things for nothing. And then have interviews done on families, in depth interviews, their stories, what is happening. It’s fine, XXX got really excited, and he looked to me immediately, and he said “uncle, here is a chance for us to do something with some organization in a joint partnership.” So we got really excited about this because we want to do this as a legacy project.

What- why do you think it is important? Do you think it’s important because, I mean, I think it’s very important to make people very aware of their own ancestry, and their own story of how they got somewhere, but I think also, it’s equally important for native, the native population of England to be aware of the story of the Ugandan Asians. Um, I mean, could you perhaps tell me how important that is for you?

If you publish a book like this as a result of your own history, you’d like to associate with it. But I am looking at a bigger version of a compilation book. Do you understand where I come from? If we get enough money, then we will have a little XXX for the job. We celebrate – I mean, I have an office for the Ugandan Asian, so the issue is all we need to do is four or five peers working, not caught up in an Idi Amin project, but a serious project, and such a book comes out, there are people who are eager to contribute.

I’ll give you a name, there is actually a girl called Joanne Herbert, she’s a Queen’s – erm, she actually did a PhD erm, oral history of you – the African Asian communities in London, uh – she looks at gender and identity is what she really is specializing in is the way uh, a woman or a mother would work within a family grouping after they left Africa and arrived in England. But she, I think she’s doing post-doc work on um – Ugandan Asians in Canada, but I think she’ll probably be coming back, I’ll keep with her at CCI, I spoke to…

Does she live here?

No, I think she’s Irish, um, of descent, I spoke to you on the phone, she’s, I think she’s originally from Nottingham, she got middle of –

She any good?

Very good. It’s a good piece of work. I mean I aspire to do a PhD like that. I’m a couple of years from getting my PhD, but it’s a very good piece. I’ll link you the title and her name and her contact details. I think –

Let me tell you as I talk to you, I was thinking about the last six months, and I want to write my autobiography.

I think you have a story that needs to be disseminated.

It’s an inside story. Of my XXX over at Whitehall. I would like to write something and put it in the public domain. It’s easy for me to line up a publisher. I need someone that I can go into for hours together, someone who can put it into words. Little narratives, and then finish the book.

To really create a conscientious narrative that tells a story.

Someone who is dedicated, hard working, if they want a bit of money, I can take it from my pocket and give it. You know what I mean? I already spoke to one author friend of mine, and uh… he’s not on board you know.

He knows you to well, probably as well!

He said ‘you probably should write stories about Uganda’s loss’.

I’m surprised no one has ever approached you before to write one.

But I’ve been so busy, right? I work in India, and Singapore, and Hong Kong, and I’m away from England, so you know… Now the time has come, part of it for the anniversary, part of it as a private project.

Do you think this anniversary has made you reflect on your own life?

Indeed. As I’m saying, it’s making me reflect on my own life, and the fact that I must leave some legacy behind to tell the story of what happened. My personal story.

I could, Mr Patel, I appreciate you need to XXX you say, but don’t underestimate the legacy of what you did anyway in 72, or anything before that. I mean, you know, and this is not me in any way being sycophantical to you at all, because I know many members of your cohort actually supported this new group of people.

I’ll tell you what –

Your legacy is, surely, staring into the eyes of the grandkids, and the kids of the people. That’s your legacy, and I think that will give you more than any book, and any book review you’re going to get, especially with such a social conscience as yourself. It must be heartwarming, to know that there are children, and even grandkids now, of people who arrived in 72, running around England.

I’ve never written a book, so I need, I need some help. And if somebody you know like this lady…

I’d like to think that we very much will be continuing our dialogue on an ongoing basis over the next few months, so you know, I will certainly consider anything I can think of.

Yes, think about it.

Definitely, I nearly – what I will say is we’re about to finish anyway, and she’s always… I always try to add little bits of humour to the-

Like one-page confessions?

Yeah, that’s what I will do, it’s topics-

We’re finished?

Yeah, we only ever do an hour and a half.

Well, I want to do one more personal story.

Well the last bit is um, certainly open for dialogue for you. Um, if you have anything to add. So, this is your opportunity.

This story is… about XXX XXX. XXX my XXX the XXX. We invite you to sit on this committee, that committee, I never drew any alums. Because I never believed I should take money from the government, in fact money from the government allowed me to be their stooge.

Yeah, yup.

I mean, I don’t want to be a stooge. So I never drew any expenditure of my travel to XXX, I flew XXX, I go the whole of my expenses, finally the chairman call me, he says “you’ve been travelling with me on flights and trains and… why haven’t you claimed anything, what are you doing?” I said “sorry, I don’t want any money from you”. He was amazed. So he said “you haven’t drawn this money for the board membership fee.” I said “why, I give my services voluntarily? I don’t want any money from the board fees either”. He said “would you let all these thousands of pounds go?” I said “yes. Keep it. Somebody else will need it in the government.” He was really stunned. So a few days later I get a phone from him. He said “uh, we would like to offer you an OBE”. So I said “I’m very sorry, I can’t accept that”. “You can’t accept it?” I said “look, I mean no disrespect to the Queen, even I am very loyal to the Queen. I admire the institution of British monarchy, even though I’m Labour Party. I see it as a fantastic institution which keeps this nation together. But I won’t accept it.” Why? I said “Because there is a word called ‘empire’”

You went and said the ‘E’ word.

‘Order of the British Empire’. I said “the day they remove the ‘empire’, I will take it as a XXX list, and anyway, there is an empire.”

Did you search for, um, because I, I’ve done a decent amount of research on your past, and I certainly wasn’t aware of that. I mean, a bunch of people would be quite happy mentioning XXX…

This is why I thought to write a book. But let me tell you something. Afterwards, if I told them, afterwards I was told, what was XXX their head, this fellow has worked so incredibly hard, probably dedicated in spirit and given time, and added value to the resettlement, and so what were you thinking. One fine morning, I have a message on my recording machine that I am something- Sir David Ashmore, private secretary to the Queen, would you submit to her please for me. I said “of course, of course I can XXX my nephew”, I said “XXX, this is a bloody joke”. Well first I rang him back, and he said “Buckingham Palace?” And I said “oh bloody hell, this is Buckingham Palace”. So I rang him, and he spoke to me very nicely and he said “the Queen would be honoured to have you for lunch in her private apartment.” And I said “did you say her private apartment?” “Yes”, he said “the Queen offers six lunches in her own private apartment every year to some distinguished people, and she would very like it if you accepted the invitation, it will come in the post for you.” So then I said “Hold on a minute, you’ve got to go vegetarian, I wouldn’t eat eggs and fish and nothing”. And he said “are you a vegan or a vegetarian?” And I said “no, not a vegan, but a vegetarian, I eat cheese and milk and all that.” “No problem”. So I got an invite, and uh, I got all… my family was very excited, my sister gave me a new suit from Harrod’s, another sister gave me a shirt, I wore a lovely dye, my nephew made sure I had the right shoes to wear… I said “I don’t buy expensive shoes.” They polished my Toyota car overnight, next day I am going to Buckingham Palace.

Sunday best.

Sunday best. I had to go, and write the expedience in my book like we talked about. This is important, you know? This would bring life to the story of what would happen to a man.

Can you not see the reaction on my face already? I’m not even reading it.

What I’m saying is this: that British establishment, I think the day I had the lunch with the Queen, there was a disconnect between me and the establishment. But the time I enjoyed being in that establishment, I was at my best. And I learned, as a, as a, an aspiring politician, how the balance of power moved.

Which is important for you for later.

Which is important for a foreign office, employment ministry, social security, all ministry, committees and meetings, and this is the meeting that is going on. The speed! And the documents the civil servant wrote.

I think a lot of us know about the machinery, but we don’t see the cogs actually spinning, and you clearly did, and you are of aware of how – how it works. Yeah? Can you tell me if, you know, you obviously don’t have to answer this, but did the Queen broach the subject of the rejection? Of the OBE?

No, no.

There was never…

I don’t know whether she knew it or not, but she was briefed well on what I have done, and she asked me lots of questions, and she was praising our community, and she was saying “the way your people have settled so quickly out of resettlement camps”, she was amazed. And the Duke of Edinborough was really, really praiseworthy. He said “the Queen and myself are always er- value communities, and he was telling me about how Lord Mountbatten had been talking to him, you know? His uncle. It was a personal touch.

Of course.

And I felt happy that the British establishment is now given me a ‘thank you’. In a very nice way. Not an OBE, not the Queen going around, you know?

It means more than a medal or three letters after your name, doesn’t it? That they…

You know, it’s true for Parliament in Britain also. I increased the XXX from 7000 to 14000.

And you played a major role in the, getting the Asian vote up for McKenna and Livingston as well, would that be right?

Yes, yes, so Ken, XXX, and myself, the three of us fought the campaign together. I worked two years in the XXX North Constituency, and Sir Robert XXX was very upset with me that I could increase the vote. And on the day the results were declared I said “Robs, next time, your vote is in my seat”. It was offered to me in 97, and I turned it down, because I was XXX Bethnal Green and Bow.

Really? Okay.

And uh. I was asked to withdraw from it by Mendelson, Peter Mendelson.

Can I ask why?

Because they wanted to XXX a white candidate, with myself and XXX were shortlisted, and the Bangladeshis were up in arms ‘we don’t want these Hindus and Christians here’. And the party had, the party had been suspended for many years, so the Liberal Party executive would decide a candidate. And I remember Peter Mendelson telling me ‘you step down, but we want you in Parliament, and I’ll make sure the next safe seat comes, we’ll give you an opportunity’. But you know, 97 was a landslide.

I was going to say, I believe it was.

The North was won.

It was won, wasn’t it?

By Labour.

Do you see yourself in Parliament?

In seat, truly no. I can’t fight the seat now, I don’t have the energy. I could do it if I had a saved seat, not an issue, but at 74 I couldn’t do it. I’ve got energy in me, but it’s a lot of hard work.

Do you think, are you satisfied with your uh- if you look back at the little boy that left Uganda and arrived in India, at the age of nine, then went back at the age of fourteen, and then you flash forward to the first night you arrived here and spent that first night running over to the House of Commons, and obviously the Vegetarian Society, I mean, do you look back on those preceding years, you must have a sense of pride, of what you achieved.

Yes, a sense of pride definitely. I have learned this, things from the British way of life, society taking on such as – I’ve taken the best of the British. The worst of the British, I’ve left it behind, and my Indian-ness is my strength. Having been away from many years, I have an urge to come back to England, if you asked me where is my home, I say “England”. But then I come back every few months or so now, I would like to do some work in philanthropy. I want to go back to lead a public life, I don’t know what I will do. I haven’t thought about it all, but the book is something that has come to my mind now. A number of my English friends tell me “for God’s sake, write the book”.

Well, Mr Patel, if you walk past any water stones this morning and you see some of the –I’m going to say this word ‘idiot’- out there, who have been given a book, um, contract to write their autobiographies, I’m sure there is enough space on the shelf for a story like yours to be on there. I mean, if the last X Factor winner can bring in an autobiography…

I just want to leave a book behind as a legacy for the- people can read it, and even if, you know, that the book goes to two to three thousand libraries around the world, I wouldn’t mind doing that, so everywhere there is a book.

I think you have a story that not only will educate people about the past, but also inspire people for the future, I think that’s the important legacy that should be told as well. I think if someone, well, let’s… in reality, someone from very conservative backgrounds in terms of money, you are not wealthy, you didn’t have a wealthy upbringing, you didn’t perhaps have the advantages that certain people did, but you’ve still managed to aspire through hard work and determination to achieve this status. But also I’d also say what’s most important is you’ve stuck to your convictions, haven’t you? You do have a conscience. And that’s what has driven you. And I’m sure many people have fell off the path, and perhaps turned their back on their own um…you know lesser men than me and even better men who’ve done the same.

See, I need to hire someone to sit with me and work on a structure of a book, and narratives, and make a XXX job of things and publish it.

We did do uh… what I’m going to do is, I’m going to send you… Give me the kind of days, I’m going to collect all my thoughts, listen back to the interview.

No, please, are you happy with that?

Yeah, perfectly happy, I really am, honestly. Uh, what we normally say is, and what I do from now on is I don’t allow XXX interview to go on longer than an hour and a half. Anyway, but we’ve touched on the subjects anyway. We’ve done about an hour and… twenty minutes, twenty five minutes. Um, what I’ve… the next step in this process, really, is, I’ll go back to the office tonight, I’ll um, burn this onto a CD, and I’ll get this posted out to you, and what you have to do is sign a form, you’ll see it, it’s just so we can put it into our archive. Uh, you’ll read it. I mean, listen to the interview and say- if there’s anything you want omitted that you said by mistake, or you want to clarify, just send me an email and I’ll adapt it into the transcription. Um, but Eastside, that’s not our only publication. We did bring out a photo, a photo book of the BNE community in Ilford, it’s called ‘Legacy’. I’ll post a copy of that so you can take a look at that, because I think there could be a potentially great section with you in any potential book. Because it’s just a photographic essay of the black community of Ilford-Essex, and I think something similar could be done with the Ugandan Asian community of Britain, just a photographic essay.

Could be very interesting, that. Is it like a book of this size? As apposed to the collaboration book, the children’s book. Because I was speaking to the minister of education, and he would be very delighted if a children’s book was done so that it can push into… they said there are about 45 boroughs in England, or town halls, or townships, or city, that has a population of Indians and Asians, or African Caribbeans, where such a book, a children’s book on Uganda…

Do you know that there’s a school in Highgate, I don’t know the name, it’s a private school, it’s a Gujarati school, I’ll find out for it.

A Gujarati school?

Yeah, it’s a private school, it’s not a full-time school, it’s an after classes so, they have a lot of between fifteen and twenty kids at five o’clock for an hour, hour and a half, and they teach English to Gujarati speakers, and vice versa, if you’re an English speaker you can actually go in and learn certain languages, Gujarat, Hindu, the idea is, they were doing a small project; I didn’t speak to the teacher because he was very busy, he runs the school himself, he is a full-time school teacher, you know, and he also hosts this after school class for Gujarati Children, um, but I think he was looking at getting his children – a lot of them are Ugandan Asians, and they’re going to write poetry, uh… they were going to talk to their parents and write poems, and try to draw pictures. That would be a lovely little thing, perhaps if I can get some of their works, what I can do is I can always archive them, scan them through, and I’ll send you a few, if we get permission. Perhaps you can see what kind of…

I would be delighted to see that.

I think that could be really nice, because it’s done by children.

These things are happening, and we have no knowledge of it. But you are obviously at the grassroot level, you’re picking up all those things.

I told you, um, Mr Patel, I spent, you know, a number of hours making phone calls, sending out emails, going on Facebook groups, which is how I found XXX in the first place, you know, I’m very adept- you’ve got to realize my background, I’m an ethnographist, I went cold into a small mining community in northeast Pennsylvania, a community that was experiencing really horrible racism, and I walking in there, and I didn’t know anyone, and I just spent a year there, basically in community outreach, just connecting with congressmen, or just people in pubs, in bars, very rough-and-ready looking fellows, sort of ‘redneck’ types. And so I’m very adept at community outreach.

How old are you?

I’m 31 as of a couple months ago.

Only 31?

Just about, you say ‘only’…

I thought maybe 38 or 40.

Thank you, I’ll take that as a compliment.

I mean it, you are a very mature person, you are.

Well, uh, in many ways I am, in many ways I’m not.

You’ve got your PhD already?

No, I’m not there yet, I have about 18 months left, about 40 000 words. [whistles] Well, don’t whistle, you’re going to write books! [laughs]

That’s quite the job you’re doing.

[Interview subjects discuss the interviewer’s PhD thesis, American politics, and the Peruvian civil war for an additional 35 minutes. The transcriber has opted to refrain from continuing documentation for the sake of preserving textual relevance.]

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Praful Patel

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: 19/04/2013

Language: English

Venue: Bloomsbury, Camden

Name of interviewer: Greig Campbell

Length of interview: 137:45

Transcribed by: Sheldon Pacquin

Archive Ref: 2013_esch_UgAs_07

2013_esch_UgAs_08

Right, can I ask you your name please?

Arun Patel.

And can you spell that for me please?

A-R-U-N P-A-T-E-L

That’s perfect, and can I ask you for your date of birth as well Arun? [PHONE RINGS]

21^st January, 1953.

You can answer that if you want?

No, no it’s alright, my mom will …

And can I ask you your place of birth as well?

Mbale, it’s in Uganda.

In Uganda, and can you spell that location please?

Mbale is M-B-A-L-E.

Ok, perfect. Right we can start, we can get going. Ok, so you’ve mentioned you were born in Uganda obviously, can I ask erm what it was like growing up there perhaps?

Erm from the time I remember it was very pleasant because er it was er er there was a lot of freedom as such, erm there were a lot of activities every evening. Er school was quite good, school was a bit far away but, I suffer from polio, at the age one one so but I my father luckily enough we had a car so I was taken to school by car. Loads of things to play, loads of games to play, Asian games like Kabaddi, marbles and also cricket, football, hockey. Erm, so it was very good, yes, growing up was very good.

So you have fond memories?

Yes, and never once did we feel we were foreigners in another country.

And can you describe your hometown perhaps, in a bit more specific detail?

The hometown, I I when I after when I was born in Mbale but after that we went we moved over to Kampala. And er it was a nice little detached er house er on a hill er overlooking the city of Kampala, and four bedrooms, servant’s quarters and er orchards er and apples, er not apples sorry er mangos and XXXX and all sorts of things. We had a playing ground, a badminton court.

It sounds very beautiful.

Yes, it was good.

And, er, I mean, did you notice the transition from your actual town of birth, which I presume which I presume was a bit smaller than Kampala?

Yeah, I didn’t realise then because I was too young when we were er when we moved over to Kampala er although I was only about two years old, but afterwards I managed to go there and I found it was more er a very small er little sleepy town on the border of Kenya and Uganda, Mbale, whereas Kampala was a XXXX city.

A typical capital?

Yeah, yeah. Cinemas XXXX.

A bit more vibrant as well?

Yeah.

And erm, did you, we’ll talk about the relationship with African Ugandans erm and the Ugandan Asian community, erm did you, obviously beyond the ethnicity, did you feel your role in society and your position in society was very different to the Ugandan Africans?

When when I was young I did, erm but when I came to my secondary school erm leading up to the O-Levels, I was more aware of the fact that you know we were er we were different but also that we we had to play a part to sort of be with them. Erm, because quite a few of them were studying with me and er obviously I I used to get on very well with our house servants and er, but there was very little exposure besides besides those two, the students and the house servants.

So it was very much when you went to secondary school, you would say?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And before that, I mean was there pretty much would you describe perhaps as segregation or isolation?

Oh, it was like, it was like almost like a self-imposed segregation by both the communities, where their roles were purely to play as more like servants and er er you know er at the the lowest social level er whereas we were in the driving seat [LAUGHS].

Yeah, and I mean did you feel, so I mean from what you’re saying it seems everyone really knew their roles in society.

Yeah.

Were they comfortable with that?

Oh no, they weren’t comfortable, I can I could see that because er naturally the economic divide was er too big, er the the the gap was too big, and er unfortunately sometimes they resorted to stealing, and er which meant if they were caught they were very severely beaten up, and I think we didn’t have much sympathy when they were beaten up. Er things like that I noticed it as a as a bystander. And erm I wasn’t feeling too comfortable either that er you you know but we were comfortable and we thought well this is ours so you know we we we got along.

Would you say, I mean culturally you’re from a population that’s quite conservative anyway, so if you view someone stealing or …

Yeah. Well, we were brought up with strict moral er conduct, so obviously those things were not er acceptable. We didn’t appreciate the fact that you know that they they were probably struggling to earn a living, or you or to feed themselves er or to send their kids to school. So at that stage I don’t think we we we understood that fully, and I don’t think we cared either. I’ll be honest with you. I don’t think we cared.

That’s fair enough, and I suppose you know you do sort of, if you’ve created a bubble for yourself, you’ve worked hard, you’re quite happy, you’re happy to stay in that bubble.

Yeah, cos my father was a first generation immigrant from er from India, and er from what he had told me, the the economic hardship that he had undergone in India, the reason that he came out, er made sure he was going to focus on that only. Erm, you know because it was it was like winning he said, to to leave India, despite the fact that he was educated, you know he didn’t see any future there.

Really?

No.

And can I ask what his er, this leads nicely on to the next question, what did your parents do in Uganda?

My father was a teacher, erm, he couldn’t he couldn’t er study beyond o-levels because his parents couldn’t afford it, but that was good enough for him to be a teacher. And then he eventually he ended up in the school XXXX and then he was promoted to as a higher education officer in the Ministry of Education.

Ok, wow, so relatively high attainment level?

Yeah, yeah.

Ok, and erm …

My mom was a housewife.

XXXX, it’s quite a traditional role within that community, of course.

[COUGHS].

Erm, let’s talk about, I mean we’ve sort of touched on it, erm the idea perhaps of a little bit of tension between the two communities …

Yeah [COUGHS].

… at certain times, on certain topics, erm lets say before Amin, I mean did you sense that did you sense the tension perhaps before Amin.

Well before, well before Amin. It was actually, it was gradually getting more and more obvious, er in fact the whole thing came about in 1962 when Uganda got independence, erm when the British left and it was quite clear there was open talk that our days may be numbered here now. Because the Africans were in in in in the driving seat, in the powers of government. So there and then gradually started simmering because the Africans were getting restless, from 1962 till 1966 when I think Obote was in power and then he overthrew XXXX, er the President, and became the President. But then the economy started declining because there was lack the lack of lack of the lack of confidence, and er Obote was driving the country towards a move to the East as he used to call it, er a more socialist er state, which meant that you know business confidence was waning and Asians with a British passport started leaving because there was an there was a big shake out in Kenya, so Kenya and Uganda Asians they all know each other fairly well so they saw they saw it coming. So Asians started packing their bags, those that could afford to leave, and so things were things were getting to a stage where you know er we were, and then then they stopped issuing us er trading permits, so you couldn’t trade, so there there was no much point in staying there if you can’t trade, and things like that.

Yeah, for a trading class as well [LAUGHS].

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Your sort of raison d’être is suddenly taken away from you. Erm, and I mean did you, do you think, I mean I can’t really speak on behalf perhaps, can you speak on behalf of your parents as well as yourself, I mean did you ever foresee that you had a life perhaps as a child outside Uganda?

No, no I didn’t foresee that because we we we had been my parents, we had been lucky enough that my parents had taken us to India a couple of times and we didn’t like it at all. Er things were very very different so we did we dreaded the thought of going back to India, and we didn’t know where to go, because we we never thought the British government would take us, although despite the fact that we had acquired British passports. Er because it any any you know immigration on that scale was never foreseen so we didn’t think er we it was outside our wildest dream that we somehow we could go into the West. Er so …

So that was never on the horizon?

No, it was never.

Perhaps not until the real issues …

There were a few cases now and then, people who were reasonably well off and they went to study, they came here to study, but er not on a family you know basis you know, the whole family.

Of course, they wouldn’t uproot their entire sort of family. And erm with the, I mean we chatted about this before the interview actually, let’s go back to the actually Ugandan Asian community. Some people have perhaps painted me a picture erm them being quite a tight knit community, but you perhaps mentioned something before the interview where there was perhaps some aspects of division within the Ugandan Asian community, can you perhaps talk about …

Yeah. I I think erm on a broader scale if if I may say so, there were there were the people who were the majority who were holding British passports or Indian passports, and they were probably feeling more unsettled than the rest. And there was the [PHONE RINGS] Ismaili community, who were mostly Ugandan citizens, and er and er I think they were advised by Aga Khan the spiritual leader to take up the citizenship, you know to facilitate er their settlement in their country. And er the Goan community as well, I think they were mostly Ugandan Citizens as well.

They were?

Yeah, So generally there was a division amongst us as as things started hotting up, er it was quite obvious that they wanted less er [BACKGROUND NOISE]. Those those that were in the those who had the Uganda passports XXXX looked at the non Ugandan passport holders with with some sort of glee, and saying you know ‘Your days are numbered, you might be going soon.’ I I was told, I I heard that from people.

So if anything, I mean sort of once the tension and the general sort of anti-Asian sort sort of perspectives started to become more popular er not necessarily with Amin but as you said before with Obote and then continuing through, I mean if anything it didn’t actually create erm some sort of of unity, it actually perhaps led to some sort of …

No, I think, I think er I don’t think it created a unity but though we were very much together on all other fronts and erm although they had their own schools, the Ismailis and the Goans had their own schools, but there was a fair bit of mingling, there was a fair bit er togetherness there erm but the on this particular issue there was there was an element of ‘Oh well, we’re going to be here, but you’re going to go.’ Er but up beyond that I think once Amin once it started it became obvious that you know then the Africans found it difficult to discriminate between Asians with British passports and those without, Asians with Uganda passports and those without, Uganda non with non Ugandan passports it became quite obvious that you know we were all in the same boat.

Yeah, essentially you’re going to be racially profiled aren’t you, and you’re seen as all being Asian, you know nobody walks around with their passport in their hand or their nationality tattooed …

Yeah, that’s right. And the Asians had occupied er a position in the erm business economic er bureaucracy, the government, civil service, everywhere, a position [COUGHS] which was quite above the XXXX of the Africans, so irrespective of whether they were Ugandan passport holders or not.

[COUGHS].

And you did say in terms of aspects of unity, did you celebrate religious festivals together?

Yes. We celebrated a fair bit together, although we didn’t celebrate Christmas. Er the Goans celebrated Christmas, we didn’t celebrate, Hindus were very much to themselves. Er if you had a friend or a neighbour who was very friendly then you would sort of XXXX, if invited you would go along, otherwise the Hindus mainly stuck with themselves, they were a majority.

There was larger numbers?

Yeah, there was larger numbers, so the Ismailis only now and again we mixed with them, but I think the the coming from my person my personality was with a lot of other Hindu families, basically because we didn’t, we were non, we were vegetarians and er did not take alcohol. That separated us from the Goans, who did both, and the Ismailis who were actually were non, they didn’t take alcohol but they they their they were non vegetarians.

Yeah, they were meat eaters.

Yeah, so and the Hindus actually were found themselves separated …

Ok, so culturally a little bit different. And erm can you erm lets go to the actual erm time period around the sort of ’71 when Amin came to power. Erm, I mean obviously from your own personal story, you were actually in England, can you tell me about your journey to England?

Yeah, I I although I was a Ugandan passport holder er I had an option to to choose between Uganda and a British passport, and I’m I’d managed to come here because I’d wanted to study pursue a course in chartered accountancy. So my father sent me here, and er …

And when was this?

This was in 1970.

1970?

Yeah, after, after I’d passed my o-levels, and erm it was very good here, because they took us after O-Levels which were very few, you couldn’t do too many high value high calibre courses with just O-Levels. My father couldn’t afford to send me for A-levels here, so we took it up, I think loads of us became chartered accountants because of that.

You’re not the first chartered accountant I’ve interviewed [LAUGHS].

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I I I came to study that and er you know I was living in a nice one-bedroom dig in Leytonstone [LAUGHS]. Far cry from the bungalow we had.

[BOTH LAUGH].

What was, can you describe sort of your first erm reaction, sort of perhaps first impressions …

I couldn’t believe it. I said ‘this can’t be London!’ I mean outside was all glitter, it was fantastic you know it was a glorious summer as well, I think the cricket was fantastic, the rest of the world was playing England after the South Africans were banned, so so that was the year when XXXX. So it was great, you know watching Wimbledon live and watching the Open, the the Golf Open and cricket and everything else. And then you have to go into a one bedroom dig in a with sharing a television in the downstairs with someone and er no central heating, when it came to the winter. So my first winter was, was quite an eye opener.

I think it would be an eye opener for anyone coming from Uganda, especially if you had no central heating.

Yeah, that’s right, and and and then then then days shortening, I couldn’t, because we had equal day and equal night, you know it was on the equator. So, so you know, to to see the night the day time coming at ten o’clock, you know the sun setting at 4 o’clock you know you’re sort of it felt quite often felt like erm a human rat, you know, who is coming house to work and work to house [LAUGHS].

There’s nothing more bleak than waking up when its dark, then going to work when its dark and then leaving work when it’s dark [LAUGHS].

Yeah, and you don’t see anyone else, that’s right, yeah.

I mean beyond sort of the weather, but it seems you did enjoy certain aspects of British culture?

Oh, oh a lot a lot. We were basically it was my fist sense of freedom, it was the first time I was away from the family, there was no no imposition from anyone. We were focused about er studying because we knew we had a responsibility towards our families, not just ourselves, to do do something in life. So that helped us. A lot of my friends were doing chartered accountancy or something similar, so that helped. And er yeah, the British life was good, and I think the British people take their time to accept us, but once you know them they’re fantastic, the people I worked with were were were very good. In fact, two of them were life long friends, one unfortunately passed away, the other one became a partner in my practise later on, so you know we are were, I used to go to their home and er stay over the weekend with their families.

So you created quite a bond?

Yes, yes, very much so, yes, yes it was quite [COUGHS] and we complimented each other in many ways because erm [COUGHS] academically I was I was doing very well and so they needed some help work wise XXXX, and er I er I could sort of I could look at their XXXX on how to speak English and all that, because we wouldn’t we never spoke English at home, or at school even. We conducted mostly in Gujarati and took English as just XXXX classes, so it was it was a little bit difficult to understand to start with erm the East End cockney you know?

It’s a good job you didn’t move to Wolverhampton [LAUGHS] …

That’s right [LAUGHS]. Yeah, yeah [BACKGROUND NOISE] also and and place like Wales and Scotland was I just couldn’t understand what what they were saying.

I’ve got a story, I had an old neighbour who was erm he came from Jamaica erm in the ‘60s. He wasn’t with the Windrush but he was sort of one of the later …

Yeah.

… ships, and then he arrived in Liverpool, I’m from Wolverhampton, the Midlands, but I used to live in Liverpool, and he arrived at the port and he er he didn’t want to go to London cos he thought well everyone’s going to London, it’s going to be too much competition for jobs. So he said I thought I’d go somewhere in the North, he didn’t really like Liverpool because he couldn’t understand a word anyone was saying, I mean I can’t understand a word most Scousers are saying to be honest let alone him, so he decided he looked at a British map and he saw this place called the Black Country, and in his head he assumed it was going to be full of black people.

Yeah.

He got there and ended up living two doors down from Enoch Powell.

[BOTH LAUGH].

Never trust a map.

Wonderful, wonderful.

He actually got on with Enoch very well apparently.

Really?

Until about ’68 I think.

I read his book, I think he was a fairly intelligent person.

Very erm complex character.

Yeah.

Full of hypocrisies in many ways. I mean fluent in Urdu, yet tried you know made one of the most divisive speeches even today in British society.

Yeah. That’s right, and probably he knew there was a fair bit of political er clout if he if he took that stand.

I think if you’re going to talk about the populism of Amin, which we probably will discuss in the next couple of questions, I think in terms of political populism Enoch Powell was as fallible as …

Yeah, yeah, well he was, yeah. Well the funnily enough a similar thing to what you said about this Jamaican friend of yours. I I went out and I couldn’t get too much of the news er XXXX Africa you know initially, so I went on this particular day and and bought er I said oh that’s that that must be the paper that has all the news, and I bought The News of the World.

[BOTH LAUGH].

I hope you didn’t believe half the stuff that was printed in their [LAUGHS]?

I thought, where is the world here [BOTH LAUGH]?

Where’s the news? I think …

[BOTH LAUGH].

Erm, was this probably pre-Murdoch, I would have thought?

Oh, very much so, very much so, yes.

Still not a great piece.

No

Let’s go onto, well let’s touch actually you said, did you ever, you said it certainly took a long time perhaps for the Anglo native British community to get used to you, and probably you to get used to them as well, it’s a two way relationship. Erm, do you, did you experience any aspects of perhaps prejudice when you first arrived here? And I’ll say this on two levels as well, erm Mr. Patel, because obviously you have a disability as well …

Yeah, yeah. I I I I was very much aware of myself, er very very much. I got my apprenticeship in a little sleepy town called Ongar, it was the last station on Central line. Er I’d struggled for a while to get an apprenticeship but when I got there I [BACKGROUND NOISE] er erm when you walk out you are very much aware that everyone’s looking at you, er in a little street you know when you walk out to go get some lunch. It took a bit of time to get used to it, I was I was totally insensitive to it, I said ok if they have to look at it they have to look at it. And I could understand that because I was also limping all the time so you know erm there were bits and pieces here and there, but none of them seriously bothered me, only once or twice in the in the in the office when I I moved into the this in the in in the city. I, it bothered me because I had some some I thought I had some some really good friends er in the office, and when Enoch Powell’s, when someone started talking about Enoch Powell, and they started talking openly about yeah they should be all sent home and I thought some of them were really good friends of mine, and they would turn round to me and say ‘So Arun, yeah why don’t you go home?’ sort of thing. You know seriously, and I said w-w-w you know it’s your job to vote for a government that will chuck me out, erm or you can do what Idi Amin did?’ But this wasn’t later on, initially it involved me I could understand it to be honest I could understand the the erm how people felt it. You wouldn’t get a room, because I wanted to go nearby, to live nearby in Ongar, you wouldn’t get a room because er they wouldn’t they’d say oh sir it’s gone as soon as you asked them. But to be honest we took it we had enough Asians here to live with so it didn’t bother me much to be honest with you.

You sound like you seem like quite a strong character anyway.

I I could understand it in and so much so I felt that about for the people here when there was a referendum about whether Britain should er stay in the er EC or join the EC er something similar er and I had the chance to vote I didn’t vote because I said you know the future of this country should be determined those who have actually lived here not someone who’s just been here, although I had a right to vote.

That’s very admirable of you.

Yeah. Cos I just felt it’s wrong of me of me to sort of it did my conscience wouldn’t allow me to.

However, with a potential up and coming vote in 2015 I think you would very much feel part of …

Yes, very much. Oh now things are things have thing have gone by leaps and bounds, I was er I was invited to carry the national flame for England at the Paralympics.

You really were? Wow.

I was one of the seven er eight people to do that so you know it’s a complete turnaround.

Well, we’ll go onto your identity and the perspective of your identity perhaps later. Let’s flip back to, you mentioned you were over when the announcement, Idi Amin made the 90-day announcement didn’t he?

Yeah.

Erm, can you tell me where you were when you heard the announcement?

I was in I was in Leytonstone. Er I think I quite vividly remember it was the weekend and I’d read er read about it and friend of mine rang me and said so what’s going to happen, you know this this XXXX? I said I knew Idi Amin er of I knew of him he was a he was someone who you could not take seriously even at that stage. So I thought oh he’s just talking, Africans have been talking like this for a long time. But he said no, but this is the President talking, so and he says three months. I said no no no no forget it he won’t, then a few weeks later I realised it had got serious because the media was was in a fever here they was sending people there they were talking about it and Amin actually loved and he actually I think he he he he grew on it he he started think oh well I’m getting attention so I must be right.

Yeah, perhaps he convinced himself of his own actions.

That’s right, yeah. Because the British media went berserk, er you know and we had nothing but news on Uganda.

Well he’d very much been the British and hadn’t he for quite a long time. Of course we all know the stories of his affiliation with Britain, and the Queen. I mean so you reaction your initial reaction was you’d say one of surprise but you didn’t really, you took it with a p[inch of salt.

Yeah, yeah, I thought, though to be honest what had happened was my after I after I after I’d taken my first exams professional exams I managed to go to Uganda for a week for a month, and I saw things that really things were turning er much against the Asians, I could see. There was there was a very the atmosphere wasn’t right so in a way I was pleased that he’s putting an end for my family’s sake I was saying we were living in fear and we were living there was a spate of robberies and everything was increasing and more and more Asians we leaving because so it wasn’t as if there there were Asians staying, there were more so every time oh someone oh he’s gone, someone oh he’s gone to Canada now, he’s gone to the UK so I thought good, this is this way it will put an end to the misery er the slow death you know? The haemorrhage and just start get going.

Lance it clean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, erm now did you were you concerned for the safety obviously your parents?

No, not one bit, not one bit. I I I I trusted the Africans I I must admit I didn’t think when I went there for a month I didn’t think it was er er it was that horrific we’d not they’d not committed any major crimes to be to be beaten up or something we’d taken now part what so ever in the politics of the country, so you know you can there there were a few er high profile Asians were actually taking part in politics and this paid the price or something like that, or they’d flee out of the country. But most of them most of them weren’t interested in the politics, you know?

When you say that do you think that, I mean obviously you said earlier you didn’t vote on the E.C. erm because you didn’t feel part, would you say the same sense in the country you bought up in as well, you could have played more of an active role in …

Funnily enough I felt more more er because I was brought up I grew up with them er I was more I felt a bit for the Democratic Party were in that country because it was better represented er where as the ruling party had had turned under Obote before Amin under had turned the whole state into an oppression er through through its military wing and through it police and prisons So you know they were they were the major, even the football teams were three major football teams were army, police and prisons, you know and and and I was I was one of those who would simply fight and say no we want something more democratic.

Why do you think the Asian community didn’t involve themselves politically?

Erm, I think they were because they were doing all too busy with their businesses and er if it didn’t effect their businesses or if they didn’t effect their their their their their social life they they they didn’t want to they they they didn’t want to sit around with the Africans.

Do you think, I means this is quite a harsh term perhaps but do you think that was quite a selfish perspective do you think?

It it it is but it’s the way it’s the way you see the Asians that came along first the first generation from India or er or er Pakistan whatever, they fitted into a slot that was already created by the British. The British were rulers, the Africans were actually er aright they were there already, but to rule, to carry out their instructions the British the the the the Asians just carried out XXXX. So they were not really into any political mode to do anything, they were just being civil servants or you know er carrying out what had to be done. So, I think I think they did have the they didn’t have the aptitude or the capability to do it.

They were fulfilling the role they were allotted?

Yes, the majority of them There were a few XXXX XXXX and a few others who were actually into politics and er you but you know I think they were limited very limited.

Very much the minority?

Yeah, very much the minority.

And erm let’s go back to erm, you went back for a month, how long before was that before the …

Oh that was just er that was May er March, so that was about for months before.

Four months before the announcement?

Before the announcement. Yeah.

So, and on top of that you had a 90 days on that. You said you weren’t worried about you parents or your family, erm do you remember when you got the news to say that they would actually be coming to England?

Er it was imminent because everyone’s family was coming everyone’s family coming, and then someone rang me and said I saw your dad on the on the tele, so they’d actually filmed him at Stanstead Airport or something, and when when he was coming down. So I I I I watched the later news and I saw er very clearly, but I didn’t hear from them, cos they were taken to a camp in Newbury. Er so and then they I rang them somewhere I spoke to them a day later and then I went to see the, yeah. XXXX.

And what was your reaction and their reaction when you first went.

Er, I was I was funnily enough I was elated to see XXXX they were come here, er but my dad was my dad is a pretty tough guy, and er and and he brings he used to bring me down to earth very quickly as well. And and he used to he he’s he spelled it out quite clearly, he said look we’ve come empty handed here, and it’s it’s now up to you, what what you want to do for this family. So he wanted to make sure that he never [LAUGHS] …

So you landed back to earth with a bump then didn’t you?

That’s right, I landed, I said oh dad thanks very much, what a welcome [LAUGHS].

And I mean what were the, if you can perhaps speak on their behalf, what was their reaction to England? The weather I’m guessing …

Their their it was cold er but they liked it, the fact that the the I I they were er they we glad that the the the headache was over about whether what’s going to happen to them. So they must have been worried, I wasn’t. Erm, when he came when you came there they were really really appreciative of what the British had done for them, in terns of taking them to the camps and giving them accommodation, and the food was er completely not to their liking.

I heard ham sandwiches were given to some er non-meat eaters.

Some of them yeah. But it’s these these things happen you know er er I I even today if you go to Europe there are people who can’t believe that you can be vegetarian so I can understand that.

If that’s perhaps the worst you have to deal after being expelled for your homeland …

Yeah, you have a choice not to eat, that’s fine. But generally I think they were they were very very appreciative of the fact that you know they were taken in, and er fortunately there were plenty of [BACKGROUIND NOISE] opportunities, er in in in the UK, so they all started moving out of these camps.

How long were they there for, in Newbury?

I think er my my parents were there for about four months, er because er my two brothers and sister were still at school age, and er obviously my dad was a civil servant so he could he couldn’t find a job. So they had to stay longer there.

I was speaking to Mr. Praful Patel when I interviewed him a couple of days ago, e was saying initially the first when they first started setting up the camps, and he was obviously was part of the resettlement board and he has only has good things to say about sort of the way the British government how quickly they reacted to the situation as a lot your community have, but he was saying erm initially he said he’d be happy if no one had to spend more than five years in a camp. And I mean that seems like a very long time.

[BOTH LAUGH].

He was saying he’d be happy with that, or certainly it would be part of his aims. So to hear four months, I mean even to me that sounds, I mean I’ve never had to go through the hell of expulsion, certainly resettlement in a camp, so four months still sounds like quite a long time.

Yeah, yeah. It was but what was happening was there was loads of people in the same boat so you immediately clicked with each other, you were still talking about your experiences, you were still talking about new things you’d find. The camps was right in the middle of nowhere, it was Greenwich military camp, so so it was in the middle of nowhere so we didn’t have transport. But they made up for their own entertainment and I think er because of that it didn’t sound too long.

And there was a, we talked about perhaps erm the tension of expulsion led to perhaps a little bit of a division within the Ugandan Asian community, do you think suddenly going through that process and being in the camps together do you think that led to a form of unity?

Yeah, yeah, everyone was one, everyone had been everyone had been sort of er given the same treatment, irrespective of who they were. I think the Ismaili’s er managed er a lot of them managed to go the Canada because er they they had struck a deal with the United Nations Refugee High Commissioner I think he was he was an Ismaili. So but a lot of them went to Canada but er yeah it was it was like you know we’re all in the same boat in a new country now.

You’ve all got only £50 pounds in your back pocket, and you’re all now sharing the same airport hanger.

You’re eating the same food?

Yeah.

So your parents when they moved out did you live with your parents or were you still living in …

[COUGHS] No I I I I couldn’t afford I I I went around Leytonstone to find some accommodation for them but couldn’t find any couldn’t find anywhere else. Ideally we needed a flat, er where you know there’d be some cooking facilities but couldn’t find any. Those things properties were not easily erm rented out, there were not too many properties rented out then. So they moved over to Winchester, they were given a council house which was going to be knocked down as soon as the Winchester bypass was er under construction, so they were given they were they were given a house to share with another family.

Right, short term.

Yeah, it was meant to be short term, but it lasted for two and a half years. Yeah, erm but It became quite nice, we we got fond of the place, we used to go there, I used to go there every weekend end or every other weekend.

Winchester’s lovely.

Yeah, yeah, so it was nice, we had we have pleasant memories of Winchester. My mom has still got very very pleasant memories of Winchester.

And erm your dad, I mean in terms of did he continue his profession in terms of education?

No, he was more like an uprooted tree, he found it difficult to to because he had he had all his in his in his last fifteen odd years at work he was more like a boss everywhere, so he found some, no he didn’t get back into education, he found a job er in Winchester for er for a few months and then that firm closed down so he lost his job, and after that I don’t think he worked.

And old was he when he arrived actually your parents?

He’s my dad was er was was I think 49 and my mom was about 44.

So it seems to me that the real focus was on you to look after the family until perhaps your siblings got a little bit older?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,. yeah and I couldn’t wait to clear my exams and and qualify and that. I had an elder sister, she was er, she was a er state registered nurse and when well yeah my brothers were too young. And, were not XXXX, my dad was from an education background, although he had XXXX only educational XXXX he believed in it through and through, so he wasn’t gona, he wasn’t gona sort of say Ok go and work now, he knew that education was so important.

He had that reality? Lets, I mean you have touched on it, and you said sort of your parents we very thankful erm for the way the British government facilitated the situation. Erm, during the course of my interviews, and I think this why we should really look at the positive side of the story, the story of the actual expulsion has been done, but lets talk about, so you, it seems to me many members of the Ugandan Asian community are very thankful to the British government and British society. I mean if you speak on behalf of yourself and your parents, I mean would you say that’s true?

Oh, even my mom sings praises of er British government, not only what they did that time, even now she thinks the Queen is the best thing in the world in a in a, you know she gets a pension, or she gets, you know, where else can you get all this she says, you know? And she’s no she’s totally thankful for the fact. And so am I, I I I say without any reservation at all, I mean I’ve travelled all over the world now, I’ve travelled all over the world in my last twenty er years. And this is by far the best country in the world, it’s er, it it boxes well above its er weight.

If you look at a map, you definitely …

Yeah, you know you have 55 60 million it weighs it boxes it it has got no right to be in certain places where it does, and and oh by far by far. It’s notches above the rest. Even as much about I mean I’ve got a brother and sister in American, they can keep it [LAUGHS].

I lived in America for 3 or 4 years, and erm I mean the problem with America is it’s celebrated this narrative, this overly romanticised narrative of this nation of immigrants, and if you arrive there with nothing you can achieve anything. The reality is, they use stories such as having a black President as an example of that, the reality is there’s that many structures in place in American society that are forged to keep you down at the bottom if you start at the bottom. For every sort of Hollywood story of a migrant arriving at the border with nothing and reaching a status of millionaire, there’s hundreds of thousands who stay at the bottom of society.

Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. I mean I came with 50 quid, and you know I’ve I’ve I’ve really I’ve done everything I could er I wanted to do in this world, forget about just the UK, so you know its er er and a country like this can offer me that.

Yeah, but I mean it’s a combination of hard work as well isn’t it, I mean it didn’t just …

I seen I’ve seen people in the subcontinent working ten, fifteen times harder than I have and getting nowhere, and I’ve seen in in America where you can make and you can blow it as well [LAUGHS]. And this country has got the mechanism where it can defend you it can protect you you know.

There’s somewhere to pick up, if you do fall down.

Yeah, there’s the social welfare system which it can look after you. It was it was funny we used to say because we [COUGHS] we managed to [PAUSES] I I I after qualifying I went to Africa, because I had the African bug in me to get rid of it for two and a half years in Zambia, and I came back, but it was so funny when I started my own practise, accountancy practise, and er er I was amazed, most of the Ugandan Asians were into businesses, or worked within within 6 or 7 years they were all gone into businesses, and were all start doing. And I was talking to a friend of mine a classmate of mine and he said he said we were having a few beers and he said you know Arun, it’s amazing how things have changed isn’t it. He said when we landed here, the British were were the Spittalfields Market and all this were were were sort of er were demonstrating saying we don’t want these guys there they they are they are going to suck the system here. He said now we are doing the work and they saying now these white guys are sucking the system [BOTH LAUGH]. You know you’re doing well because these white guys are sucking the system, they’re lazy buggers [LAUGHS].

You should start protesting at Spittalfields Market [BOTH LAUGH].

He said oh it’s amazing after in six years you know instead of them telling us, we’re telling them [LAUGHS].

I always remember I had a shopkeeper at the end of my street, erm he was [COUGHS] Mr Sharma, I mean a wonderful man growing up he used to give me free penny sweets. Very disciplined though, if he saw you sort of reading a magazine fro too long, this is not a bloody library, get out.

[LAUGHS] Sharma?

Sharma, yes.

Punjabi, yeah.

And I, yes he was from the Punjab, Punjabi, from the Punjab. And I went in probably about five years ago, he was just about to pack up, he was selling his business, and he’d done very well out of through hard work, he’d still get up at 4am for to do you know, if a kid a paperboy didn’t phone didn’t turn up he’d be going out giving out the papers with his wife. And er all his children very successful accountants, doctors etc erm and he was about to retire and he was selling up and I said Mr Sharma why are you selling up? You’re finding it too old aren’t you? He’s like no Greig I could carry on for another ten years. And I was like, so why, is your wife, she wants you to retire. And he was like, no it’s the bloody Poles, they’ve opened a shop around the corner, I don’t know Greig, they come over here, they take my business, they marry our children [PHOJE RINGS], I was thinking I’ve heard this story before Mr Sharma …

[LAUGHS]. Yeah, that’s right.

… and I think it was probably told about you when you arrived in the first place.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, I always as a metaphor I always look at it it’s kind of like if you enter a you walk through a door you kind of often close it behind you don’t you, once you’ve entered that room you don’t want anyone else to come into the room, you don’t want to share it with anyone.

No, no, I know, I know, yeah.

Erm, it’s funny, but I’d also say …

[BACKGROUND NOISE].

Erm, I think also I mean that’s to me a testimony of how much you’ve achieved here and become part of British society that you can actually feel comfortable saying these things, and joking about this like this.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They were one of my friends I had about 180 newsagent clients when I started my practise, you know. Erm, because you know they were all in business, only for one generation. The next generation didn’t want to know so they’re all going. When one of them was it’s funny cos one them said he had a had a Romanian er woman come into his shop now and again and er he had to watch her cos she was stealing so once he just in the morning he just go there and just started pushing her out out of the out of the you know cos no one was watching he said come on out out, and the Romanian woman turned around and said he you Paki go home [LAUGHS].

[BOTH LAUGH].

Things like that would make an amazing sitcom on television.

[BOTH LAUGH]

It’s so perposterous that it’s hilarious …

[LAUGHS]. She’s telling us Paki go home.

Well to be honest I mean the Roma gypsies and Roma community don’t exactly have it that easy either do they, that’s the problem. Let’s see, you said you went back erm to I I I XXXX did your parents when they arrived here, did they ever think they were going to go back to Uganda, or …

No we never XXXX we never discussed it because Uganda was, no we person non grata, the doors were closed. Amin left in ’79 and even after that it the the whole country ravaged by Amin and his people so I took it took a long time for it to be in a state where one could go back.

Any yeah I mean, proceeding Presidents did actually offer er …

Yeah, I think not as often as the present one XXXX, because he he came out and wanted to get going dear friends, Asian friends who then joined in. But it took a long time, I think mid-80s late 80s when when people started saying ok we can comfortably go.

But by then you’d made your life in England?

Yeah, and I didn’t see any reason to go, erm I I told friends others I’ve got reason to go back until, unless I’ve got a good enough reason I’m not going back. And it happened about two years ago when I had a good enough reason so I went.

Let’s talk about that then, I mean we have briefly touched on it, erm it was before we actually started recording so, er what’s you perspective of going back, you said you were pleasantly surprised.

Oh yes, yes, yes, yes I I touched the tar mac at XXXX when we landed, I thought it was a homecoming. Erm I went to [COUGHS] I went to see my primary school, my secondary school. I was our primary school was in a bit of a state, I expected it, but the fact that it was still going on was quite, you know I was quite pleasantly surprised. Hmmm, the secondary school was good, in fact I became an old member and thing were things were still there when I went there and they said they would Old it’s called Old Kampala er er Senior Secondary School so I asked in and they said oh yeah you can become a member of OKOSA which was Old Kampala Old Swimming Association, so I became a member and the first thing they asked me was so which house were you in because there were they had houses, and I thought 40 years on and you still kept the houses and they were, they were based ion the national parks XXXX, XXXX, XXXX, you know XXXX national park, there were, and I said XXXX, so she got me this is your t-shirt, the XXXX so I bought quite a few of the t-shirts to give it all my friends here

Amazing.

Yeah, so 40 years on it was still there, everything was there, it was great.

Amazing, and did you go to your, the town of your birth or?

I didn’t go to Mbale I didn’t go to Mbale no er I was planning to but I didn’t go there, erm I was quite happy I mean I went to Jinja and it was I was quite [PHONE RINGS] er quite pleased there and I sent quite a few photographs to me friends afterwards if you check on my facebook I’ve got myself sitting at the source of the Nile, where it started.

Wonderful, wonderful

No it’s good.

And did you go to your perhaps your actual home your residence?

Yeah, yes that was quite that was quite er quite a thing because first time I went there I missed it, I said oh there must because the entire road which was residential with orchards as I said trees and everything else was nothing but tar mac, was nothing but concrete. Er our next door neighbour what was just another bungalow was a five storey building there er and there was construction there was commercial it was commercial [BACKGROUND NOISE] so I missed our house altogether, and then I went I thought of it at that night [BACKGROUND NOISE] I said it must be that that same building I went there our house is the only one that has actually remained as it is but it had been heavily fortified and the Kampala Church of Christ are occupying it now.

Oh wow.

So it’s a it’s a divine thing [LAUGHS].

[BOTH LAUGH].

It’s the only house on the road, everything else has been converted.

Commercialised?

Commercialised the high rise flat built there, this one was the only one which which which was still as it is.

So that I think that’s a testimony to what you said that life has moved on in …

Oh yes, yes yes yes.

And I mean you did mention it again but we didn’t get it on we didn’t record it but I mean you sort of you see that when you saw the Africans the black Africans actually involving themselves in business trade, you know taking on the role perhaps that you used to full fill yourselves as a community, did you feel a sense of pride in that or?

Very much so, very much so. I I I I was I was I was I was really pleased for them erm I I I actually I quite like Africa and er the African way of life as well, so I I hired a cab and I can speak fluent Swahili, although I had not used it for forty years, I I I I was talking in Swahili all the time, er he took me around, we had a lovely lovely er chat and [COUGHS] one day I said ok I want to eat your food which is the which is the er what do you call it, they call it XXXX they call it XXXX with which is millet er ground millet and and and and and er and er with a vegetarian dish er and he said I’ll take you to this hotel, I said oh no I don’t want to go to a hotel, I want to go where you where you eat. So he took me to one of these side cafeterias and er the atmosphere was a bit dingy but the food is good, so I said there I tell you what well there must have been 30 er 40 people passed by to watch it. Cos what they’ve seen is they’ve probably seen more white men do it, a Chinese guy do it, never an Indian. And I was eating with them, the guy had so much decency, the the one who took me he said ok he said I can’t believe you’ve come in with me here he said out of respect even I won’t eat non veg [BACKGROUD NOISE] I’ll eat veg [BACKGROUND NOISE].

What a what a beautiful sort of erm story and also what a beautiful gift he gave to you as well.

Yeah, and for me to remember he said no and I knew they they they love their meat they always eat the meat, he said no no out of respect I’m because you actually XXXX me by sitting with me here, I’m gona I’m not gona participate XXXX not eat meat in front of you. I wasn’t I wasn’t going to get upset if he ate meat but he wanted to respect that.

It’s very respectful, mutual respect as well.

Yeah, and this was a driver, he he he’s a he’s a driver you know, he’s not er isn’t we’re not talking about an intellect.

Someone in the higher echelons of society.

Yeah, and they don’t have to be that way. Bit I I quite enjoyed that I I thought I went there again twice and I said I want to eat this meal again mate.

[BOTH LAUGH].

And bring some back to England?

It’s it’s it’s a very nice meal, they call it XXXX XXXX which means the food of strength and because they they can’t eat any other luxury stuff, so they eat that and it it’s pretty pretty strong, cos once you eat that you don’t need a meal for the next day.

Keeps you going all day?

Yeah, keeps you going, it’s keeps you rock solid.

Yeah, yeah, its society perhaps where money and food is sparse sometimes.

That’s right, you have to eat simple but you have, there is not curried stuff you know, there is no hot stuff. Just simple but er [PAUSES].

Nutritious?

Nutritious, yeah.

And erm you said you you you’ve obviously travelled around Uganda, but you have a passion for erm Africa.

Yeah.

Can you talk to me perhaps about your identity I mean sort of when I say identity I mean sort of, obviously you have an ethnic identity as do I, but I mean more culturally, you cultural identity, your national identity, what do you feel?

I I I’ve erm obviously, we were brought up as Indians, we were brought up as Hindus, although I’m a practising Hindu, I never, I’ve never subscribed to any organised religion beliefs, because I just feel you know it it ties me down. Although I’ve got strong ties with India erm I like this freedom this freedom I have of being able to share or being able to participate in other cultures as well er pick up you know cherry picking from other cultures as well so whether it’s the English or the Africans. So so I’d probably would say I’m a yeah I’m a more individual cosmopolitan that sort of thing you know.

You’re Arun Patel.

That’s right. With with an Indian identity but nothing nothing if if something’s wrong I I’d like to have that freedom to say so er irrespective of whether I upset people or not. That’s why I said Idi Amin’s right, he was right in theory, the practical implementation was not correct, but you know who am I to ask advise on that? He did it, he did it And he had the power to do it. But er no I I I I I so I don’t think, I’m mean I [PAUSES] feel proud to be British, I must admit erm because I think it gave me an elevation that no other country would have given. Er irrespective of whether you work hard er whether you worked you know I was full of I was full of fire in 1970 when I came here but you know else where you couldn’t have lighted it up the way we did here. And and still gives you a chance to be modest, gives you a chance to still do things er you know not to it that get into your head like it does in American for example. You know you talk about dollars all the time or something, there’s more balance here.

Yeah, an obsession in America let’s say, it’s quite dangerous.

British people have got a culture, they’ve got a history er which is which is priceless you know as country like this ruling the world it’s priceless. All you can get in terms of you know brushing shoulders with them in terms of you know their XXXX. The only race I know who can actually can laugh at themselves so much.

I think we’ve got used to it recently.

[BOTH LAUGH].

Not recently [LAUGHS]. It’s been always. They they will they will do the silliest of jokes and laugh at themselves and I thought if if a race can do that that means they have matured beyond the rest.

Yes, yes. I’d say that yeah, i mean even as a nation laugh at oneself I mean it’s very comparable to a person as well, people who can be self deprecated tend to be quite comfortable with themselves.

Right, if you’re comfortable then you can laugh at yourself and and to me that that is that was that was good because why do you have to be tensed up about someone cracks a joke and you want you want to sort of raise arms and all that there’s no need for it, so and and that sense of humour I mean me and my brother we we enjoy the British sense of humour big time always certainly in America. We we love it.

[LAUGHS]. I’m not sure how the British sense of humour goes down in America, speaking on behalf of someone who lived there for a while, it doesn’t go down that well.

No.

Most of the time they don’t understand anyway to be honest.

No, no but they but they love they love the way you speak English.

Often they’re not listening to your words they’re listening to the way you pronounce the words.

The way you it’s pronounced.

That’s what they find humorous.

My son was there for two years and they say they they XXXX loved him speaking they want to tell him to speak all the time.

Oh yeah, they won’t listen to you, they want to hear the the voice, it’s incredible. A lot of my words aren’t worth listening to any way so ...

[LAUGHS].

Let’s erm, we’re going to start wrapping this up erm Arun. I really do appreciate your time.

Yeah, sure.

Erm, we’ve talked about your identity, do you have any children yourself?

Yeah, I’ve got two boys.

You’ve got two boys, you mentioned this of course. Erm, let’s talk about that generation, and their perspective of what what happened to certainly the older generation in ’72. Is their a knowledge, is there a lack of knowledge do you think?

Big one, yeah. Erm I think out of choice I’ve not subjected them to that, only when some people talk they say ok, erm the transformation from being in Uganda to UK, XXXX in UK you know things have changed so much within the last 20 or 30 years, they find it difficult to keep pace with that. Er let alone look back and see where where you were and it’s worrying in a way because er there are some old values that they should not sort of be deserting, and er it I I I now and again we’ve XXXX that to to talk to them you know these are there are certain old values that you don’t know. You know you’ve got to you’ve got to respect you know erm delve yourself a bit in the history you know identity, which my my my sons are doing it a bit, because we I take them back to India as as roots, unfortunately I can’t take them back to Uganda, but but I take them back to India where my Dad originates from. We still have links there, we still have a farm there XXXX. So they they know why we eating this food, where where where where why we talk like that?

Where do we come from?

Yeah exactly, where do we come from?

And erm, in terms of the commemoration do you think this is a god opportunity to perhaps to make that generation aware of this process.

Erm, of of of the, what happened?

Of where they came from yeah, and what happened and some the experiences that their parents or even grandparents ...

They can only get richer er with that knowledge you know they can only get richer erm yes definitely.

And lets go back to why there is this gap in the knowledge, do you think that was, I think you mentioned it was quite a conscientious choice by some families to, can you explain why you think that occurred?

Yeah, yeah. I think we we were er [PAUSES] it must have to do with a few things. It had ugly facets you know the fact that you were kicked out is not a nice thing to talk about, for some of them, those that actually felt it. Erm, also I felt that er the most of the young generation sometimes get bored with adults, ‘oh here he goes again. talks about his time his time you know.’ So I’ve I’ve been very conscious of this so I’ve never actually done that erm but more importantly also I think is the fact that the pace of life is so fast, and we were so busy trying to re regroup ourselves and get ourselves back into the life you know at the age of 20, 21 to start all over again er from scratch, a house, mortgage and all that. It took a chunk out of us so we didn’t have that time to sort of say okay by the way you know let’s [PAUSES] let’s talk about the history as well, let’s talk about, let’s talk about our own background, our culture and all that. It it became it it became less important in the context in the scheme of things er now we are free we want to go back to it, but at that stage it became, it was [PAUSES].

You’ve sort of perhaps achieved a status where you can actually start to reflect on the past, and actually appraise the past?

Yeah, yeah. I actually I’ve taken I’ve taken er things a bit erm beyond that cos I feel rather than looking at the past erm there’s a lot we can do in the world. You know someone has we’ve been endowed with certain good er blessings that we have done so we I’ve got involved er I run a couple of charities er I sold my practise six years ago and er.

Yeah, please let’s talk about that now er cos I think this is a good opportunity perhaps for you to talk about your charitable endeavours.

Yeah, so I mean I I look back and I think this all happens for a reason and I er I don’t have to sort of question the almighty’s reason for that so I never asked [BACKGROUND NOISE] why I got this er now now looking back at it I realise why not because ten years ago I went to a er I invited myself to go to a school with er 400 physically challenged children in India, in Jaipur, Rajasthan. And er they all have polio and er I set up a charity called polio children er to take them to university so at that stage when I looked at it I thought look I would not be standing here if my father had not educated me period. So I stood there and I said if I can’t only take five kids to university er I will have taken I will have done my life’s dream, you know I will have accomplished something. Last June we took our145th kid to university, so it’s priceless that sort of thing you know to get that feeling. So and we’ve we’ve built a hostel for girls er 440 girls er so they can have some sort of of future, they they started studying, one girl became a doctor and things like that. So they they I’ve I’ve actually imposed a bit er on my kids er of this onto my kids you know, on my kids and they’ve taken that up as well, saying let’s look forward you know, our family doesn’t mean ours only its it’s a wider family, and much bigger family and and whenever we can XXXX that’s all, and to me that’s good cos a lot of friend’s children, they’ve started er participating. So you know, that’s one charity and the other one is XXXX yoga, you may have seen his posters in the tubes er er we’re having a weekend at Excel.

Is that your poster? I’ve seen that poster, is it the Excel weekend?

Yeah.

Yeah, I saw those two days ago whilst on the tube. Ok.

XXXX XXXX he’s a he’s a XXXX Yoga, yeah. I was invited on the board of trustees er in the UK for that, so I was with him yesterday.

Wonderful.

So we we run those programs er for and they they cover a wide range of issues besides just yoga, it’s a through yoga how you transform people’s lives. And er you know we’ve got 2 and a half million volunteers worldwide, so volunteers [PHONE RINGS]. No, it’s ok, so its so those are the two things I’ve been focusing on [PAUSES]m although my boys have done very well in in terms of their careers er to give them that balance.

And do you I mean do you think it’s also because you came from such a humble background, and then had it taken away from you as well? Do you think that’s influenced your charitable sort of perspective?

Yeah, very much so, very much so oh we still, that’s why we still have links with our folks in India, we go there and things are are still way way behind what we are material and all that so it doesn’t bother me, and it doesn’t bother me in the sense you know I I’m not going to distance myself from them, because I I feel this is where we all we all came from. So so it’s er yeah it’s played a big part in it.

Wonderful, and erm in terms of, it’s the last two questions or at least topics now, let’s talk about the success of the Ugandan Asian community, cos I mean it’s unrivalled isn’t it, it’s held up pretty much on by even contemporary governments as the most complete success story erm especially considering arriving as er refugees and asylum seekers, which is essentially what you were. Can you talk about perhaps the achievements and also perhaps why, do you have a reason for how the Ugandan Asian community has achieved so much in such a I mean 40 years is such a small amount of time for a diaspora.

But it it ere r I think it’s because we were er [PAUSES] the opportunities were here and we had the potential but not the opportunity when we were in Uganda. So when the two mixed together, er and there was nothing to stop us to say alright you can only do XXXX ways, places like India and others there would be rivalry, there would be competition, there would be limitations erm we it we were still as a unit as a family unit when we were thrown out. You know we didn’t get, very few families got dispersed they were still in a unit, so those families were actually not well off in Uganda, suddenly started having four or five breadwinners in one family, and and that you have together with the family values of everyone staying together of everyone chipping in together, you know it’s amazing how much you can do because of that. So it lasted for I think that was one of the reasons, also we wanted to make up for the lost ground you know, the fact that you know we had all left everything behind. We didn’t we we didn’t lose much back in Uganda because my dad was a teacher and his his house was government quarters and everything else but er we had a career to build otherwise otherwise we would have been back to square one. And my dad knew it, no way did he want us to go back to India so so, it’s the fear of er losing it all what we had again I think made sure that we we we we went the extra mile or you know we stepped it up a lot erm [PAUSES] I think I think to be honest the the [PAUSES] it’s not just hard work, to be successful in Britain was a no brainer [LAUGHS]. You know, you you can’t go wrong.

If you can’t be successful here. Then there’s not many other places you go to really?

That’s right, there were opportunities er you you because British people, being fair minded you know, they will put an opposition but if if they found that you was fair you know they will stick out XXXX that’s we should allow them that, we should allow them that. And so before you realise it was it was done, and then we only had one bank to lend us money, which was I think NatWest Bank in Piccadilly, and and and that bank started lending money left right and centre, everyone went oh god we’re missing something here, so they there were others joined in. And and at that stage there was a situation that you know your word was your bond, you don’t, you do not, if you say you’re going to borrow money, you repay period.

Yeah, I was speaking to Praful during the interview and he was saying you know the community would lend each other money as well you know, so the more successful members of the community would give you £5000 to put on a mortgage and that member of the community who borrowed it would stay to their word, they’d pay you back within three months, six months, whatever they promised.

Oh when when I wanted to buy a house the whole family came together here’s two grand here a grand my dad everyone said ok here’s the deposit for you to start, and you know feel free to live here as well. So they gave us a start.

Are you looking to adopt?

[LAUGHS]. Yeah, well I’ve got up to 400 children.

Of course, yeah.

And the African, the answer to your thing about whether I like Africa is we when we started Polio Children erm we wanted to do something to Africa as well so we went back to Tanzania. There’s a hostel with 50 children with polio and er and we we started getting over there, so we wanted to do something as a family er the trustees of Polio Children wanted to do something back in Africa as well, because we owe it to them.

Yeah, that shows that you have an affiliation, perhaps unfinished business over there.

Yeah, oh yeah yeah yeah. We definitely owe it to them.

Yeah, I think it’s the Negrecha brothers as well …

Sorry?

The Negrecha brothers, they’re opening a foundation back in Uganda …

They’ve already opened one here,

Yeah, they have I’ve been over there, I’m trying to get an interview with them at the moment, they’re difficult to track down those two.

Is it?

Yeah, they’re always over in either Uganda or …

Funnily enough I sold my property to them

Oh really?

So I know them.

Well, this could be something you help us out with, I will ask you afterwards. This is the last erm topic and I think it its kind of again I’d like to record this cos you mentioned something when we first started chatting before the interview and it’s about Amin being right. I always close with if you had a message to Mr Amin now what would it be and I’d like to hear your automatic response but also bring what you mentioned early about him perhaps being right in the grand scheme of things. What would you message be to him?

Er, the message to Mr. Amin would be thank you very much on behalf of all the Ugandan Asians cos they’ve done marvellously well er you gave us a head start over all the other refugees that came after us. Erm there were a lot of corner shops that needed sorting out in London, and there how how better than to have a shop and and a place to live above it, all in one. So job and occupation at the same time, erm the all our kids got a head start into education, you know into better schools that were much much better than we would have had had they had continued their studies in Africa. Erm for the Africans I’m even more pleased because I think er because you did it very brutally at least you did something for the second or third generation afterwards who can proudly say yes the country belongs to them, and er they they they can see certain future in their own country, which would not have happened if the Asians were there, cos the Asians definitely would have been a stumbling block.

So it goes back to your point perhaps that erm the decision may have been the right one, again the way he carried it out, the practise, the process …

He’s an army man so he could only carry it out in an army fashion. I I didn’t er even at that stage after he expelled us I didn’t I didn’t question the expulsion I I I but I seriously had question marks against him for the way he treated his own people er for us fine, we did not show any allegiance to your country, you kicked us out that is ok, but er to treat your own people the way that he did, it was wrong.

And I think what a perfect way to actually end this interview.

Thank you.

Arun, a pleasure, I mean this.

Thank you.

The End

Transcript not to be used without copyright

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Arun Patel

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: 08/02/13

Language: English

Venue: Interviewee’s Home

Name of interviewer: Greig Campbell

Length of interview: 01:04:59

Transcribed by: Greig Campbell

Archive Ref: 2013_esch_UgAs_08

2012_esch_UgAs_09

2012_esch_UgAs_09

Ok. Can I ask your name please?

My name is Shaukat Khan.

And can you spell that for me, please?

It’s S-H-A-U-K-A-T K-H-A-N.

That’s perfect. Ok Dr. Khan we are ready to go then. Right so we discussed previously before I turned on the recording device about your sort of er... role within the resettlement board of the Uganda Nations. Can I take you back to that time and perhaps discuss the nature of society and race relations within Britain from your arrival, you arrived in 1964.

Yes.

Can you perhaps describe your own XXXX?

Yes. I think that when [COUGHS] obviously, when I arrived in er.. November 20... er... 1964 [CLINKING SOUND] I mean for me it was er.. [COUGHS] not only a cultural shock, but environmental shock [SNIFFS] because I came from a very warm, hot country er.. to a very dark er.. foggy, cold London [SNIFFS] er.. and where the nature of society was totally different than ours because ours was more open er... here it was very much your house is your castle, so your very much indoors and with the cold weather; [SNIFFS] but, as I obviously got used to it lived there I felt that there was er... this kind of erm.. cold hostility erm... it probably had much to do with the er.. obviously, environment which, I didn’t understand at that time because my image of England and London was what we read in books and what we saw in the sort of sometimes films about the British Raj and so on so [SNIFFS] that... you felt that you were a part of it, and when you came here it was a difference. It was much, much later that I realised that we were talking about a two different nations [COUGH] the one that who ruled they were the different kind of people and the one that is an ordinary working class people that [SNIFFS] who probably er... had no knowledge or no experience as much as this so over who just coming out of the war and so on [SNIFFS] and erm... so I think that there was this erm... cold hostility, erm... I mean my problem was that a: there was language problem because you weren’t able to communicate er.. very well [CLINKING SOUND] and secondly that there was the issue of knowing the XXXX... because were come from a very secure very er... er... religious environment to a totally different and erm... so that I think that there was the, the initial difficulties but as we, we settled in and we started finding that there issues that which, erm.. er were coming out a bit more open in the sense that you er... started understanding the issue of racial violence, hatred the.. the... the people putting up or seeing on TV as well putting notice board ‘no blacks here’, and erm... and you were becoming to feel you were different and erm I think it was in the late sixties that when erm... we saw the growth of ‘Paki-bashing’ which, erm... I think brought home the message that you are literally not secure, in a sense, that you could be XXXX particularly in Walthamstow where in the High Street, every Saturday when they put the shopping day [SNIFFS] er... that you will see gangs of white youths having sticks in there hands and then beating any young Pakistani they see. Er.. and this will go.... [SNIFF] and the obviously it was fearful in that sense and er... secondly, it was that who do we turn to? Erm.. it seemed that the police wasn’t paying that much attention they will say well ‘Do you recognise them?’ Well of course it’s difficult to when you see a crowd of people that when you’re being beat and so on you may recognise but where do you find them? How do you describe them? You can describe them by clothes and so on but they say ‘Ok, well fine, we’ll we can’t do anything’. And I think that it was that kind of er…environment that when we started sort of er.. getting the feeling that we must do something there was no community organisation at that time there was no community relations council and so on, so the only group of people that who were bit vocal were the churches and particularly one or two churches in the High Street area where because they were on the forefront [SNIFFS] and so there was this kind of reaction from some of the young people that we were going to either working or going in the evening classes and so on that who felt that well er.. when you get your own er... mother or sister being beaten up or when there’s their jewellery snatched and so on or abuse and so on they, they, they just couldn't sit there so they started reacting. You also had the same going on not only on the, the High Street but also on the buses, particularly the Chingford area that anyone that who ... erm you know those days they were open buses driver and conductor so it was easier for them somebody get on beat up and go. And that area was particularly notorious because that it was like er.. you were feeling like that you were in South Africa or Rhodesia there are no go areas but, obviously people most of the conductor’s this was a job that they were getting in the buses. So you were hearing reports of erm... conductors being beaten up er.... and again correction and erm... er... or at least that was the feeling that white people not.......

So I mean would you... I mean would you... I mean the way that your describing it to me is it almost as if society is becoming polarized based on race and ethnicity?

Yes.

Is that the sort of sense?

The, the trouble is when you always have this silent majority they sit at home and they do nothing then, then you have even if a small crowd of people er...for victims its the whole world and I think that was the.. and the only er.. people that who we thought could protect us are the police, a law enforcing agency and then there was very er... great silence on that part or at least report that no nobody has been arrested or so on [CLINKING SOUND] and erm... you couldn't get witnesses erm.... strangely and I think until the other people thought well ‘Ok, if were going to be beaten up well we at least will retaliate’, so they started to have sticks and they went through XXXX. The people like myself at that time were er.. reluctant and were discouraging I said ‘don’t beat up any white person er.. young person because they just happen to be white if you somebody hits you then you hit back but, not the innocent victim otherwise we are doing the same thing that like anybody else is and it’s not their fault’ and then maybe I’d sympathize and so on. [SNIFFS] But I think that what they did was that two or three weekends then there's everybody started in action and suddenly the police started acting and I think that it was [COUGHS] then found out some of the police officers were just turning a blind eye and they were er.. if they were not encouraging openly well they were certainly not discouraging, [LAUGHS] and I think at that time that you started getting groups of people coming together and I remember in High Street I think it was ’67 around that time that the erm... church started erm.. organising a community organis... and that was C.A.R.D (Campaign Against Racial Discrimination) was set up there was I don’t remember his name Reverend who was an Afro-Caribbean er...er... who, who more or less was leading it [SNIFFS] and so from there that these suddenly people thought we need to collaborate and like minded people and so that campaign against racial discrimination became a focal point in, in raising the issue because then collectively we could talk with the police officers, collectively we tell the councillors, collectively with local members of Parliament and so on [SNIFFS] and I think it was er.. Eric Decans (Derek Deacon?), if I remember that he was a member of Parliament at that time, Labour one it was er... er a great help, so at least suddenly that some sort of mechanism started [CLINKING SOUND] working out but, obviously what is was doing was exposing more and more the racism that existed er... underneath that one and erm... and I think it was erm... [SNIFFS] the, the, the suddenly the flash point came when er... er... Younis Khan, a local residence erm... just off the Queen’s Road they created one block, which is Younis Khan Road. [COUGHS] Erm... his family was burnt er... alive he survived but all his wife and three children were dead. I think that brought out the, the full force of this, this feeling and so on one hand you had the erm... National Front coming in the force to say look ‘these er’.... whatever the message was clearly ‘these black people are not wanted’ and there’s a kind of message is blunt they say ‘you can get a house if you get rid of them’, ‘You can get a job’ this one....

I think if, if one thing the B.N.P and the N.F can be accused of over the years is being quite blunt [LAUGHS] I means lets.......

Yes. Yeah. Well you, you knew that there they say and they play on people’s emotions, which anybody will do that are political parties so yeah they were very blunt they say ‘You are unemployed there’s a black man there, get him out’......

Its bread and butter politics isn’t it?

Yes. Yes. Which, Which er.. to a lot of people appealed and said that well [COUGHS] but when they are vulnerable and so on [CLINKING SOUND] so I think that, that, that, er... that was that was a flash point [COUGHS] and I think it raise whole range of issues, whole range of things it brought so you had the Anti-Nazi Leagues coming in then er.... I think that there were groups that you more or less kept capitalised on that er.. and exploited it [COUGHS] for various reasons, but at the other hand er.. a lot of people felt that they were some groups that they could join in and so on [COUGHS] and obviously I became myself very active part of that one.

So, I mean if you can give us sort of an overview of this period when you arrived up until sort of the late sixties and perhaps even then the early seventies erm... I mean it seems.. a ver... a period of quite a lot of agitation within the community that seemed to be based on ethnic and racial alliance...

Yeah.

However, at the same time it seems that the… sort of the.. the not native community lets say they actually organised themselves very quickly as a reaction.

Yes. Yes.

So that’s....

I think that yes. I mean that that XXXX bear in mind that the flux of the immigration was around sixty-three, sixty-four, sixty-five [COUGHS] and the other flash point at which er... I think triggered it more erm... I think openly erm.... was the Enoch Powell speech erm... where he said ‘that the, the country will be erm’... I think that ‘there’ll be rivers of blood and cultural pollution’ and so on. So, yes your right that this was a period when suddenly people er... who er... initially, I mean a lot of people er... that I was obviously young but my parents and family and of the same time, they came believing that they are here for temporary they’re not going to stay here so therefore, it was turning the other cheek. Er... and they say ‘Ok. If somebody abuses us it’s ok we will just pass time and go back’, but I think that as it grew more younger people came and people thought well we are going to live here [COUGHS] whatever years so we can’t just live in fear and so on.

This can’t carry on

So yes it, it was so er... while it was er.. I think confronting the [COUGHS] force of all those racism and er... kind of erm.. groups and so on... but, it also enabled people to group together, to start looking at their role and start looking at the what can be done and getting people of common mind. So therefore, you had then the comm.. race.. er [COUGHS] Community Relation Council, being set up, which under the government then they say well we need to do it because we don’t want to.....collaborate and so on. So yes a lot of action then started happening...

Mmm…

And I think people started suddenly feeling that we can do something we can’ just sit and be, be, be either turn our face around or turn the other cheek round [COUGHS] we need to work with people, we need to do something. So yes it was er... brought some positive changes as well.

Mmm...And do you feel, I mean you’ve sort...you’ve..., as you’ve stated the early sixties early to say mid-sixties was a period of..... I mean... I’d go as far to say mass migration to England....

Yeah.

Compared to historical migration...

Yep...

Erm.. certainly London as well and obviously it’s not just the numbers also its migrants from a specific geographical area.......

Yes.

Erm.. in the other part of the world.......

Yes. Yes. Yes.

...Let’s say. Quite a concentrated area.....

Yes.

...Relatively speaking...

Yes.

...As well to come to another concentrated area......

Yes.

In this part of London. Erm.. Did you notice there was more perhaps prejudice and anti-migrant agitation at erm... during periods where more migrants were coming in – Do you think it was a directly correlated with numbers? Would you say?

I think so I think that the [COUGHS] you had the... obviously erm... er.. I mean it’s... it’s natural in one sense that where you erm... seen a transformation a change in the local structure particularly in the East of London where you had come out of the war there’s been a lot of things going on, lot of erm.. people killed people just building up things and then their suddenly seeing a large influx of people who were not only of different colour but of different culture, of different erm.. faiths and so on and most of them congregating in same areas for their own protection or for instance; I mean if my father came he said ‘well where do you want’... he said ‘Oh well I know somebody there’ so you built it up so therefore there were more visible than they were actually numbers but er.... you [COUGHS] er...it’s nature people feel insecure what’s going to happen now this is our land this is our country and their getting all the kind of benefit or their getting the.. and the fact was that they were um.. hard work they wanted to earn money so they were often working twelve to fourteen - sixteen hours er...therefore earning bit more money and so on and here was er.. a community that who were not because they were no opportunities, but they didn’t wanted to work they said well I want to only work eight hours [BEEPING SOUND] for five er... yet there they could see that they was well I’m earning [PHONE RINGS] sixty pounds somebody else is earning two hundred pounds [COUGHS] this was seen as, as a unfairness and so on and then there’s when you reinforce by TV and other people like Enoch Powell says ‘You know it’s our culture it’s being polluted’ and so on, it registers, it’s, it’s, it’s, a natural it would happen in any other society as well and I think that [COUGHS] was erm... part of that one yeah.

(Interrupted briefly 0:15:32.4 – 0:15:43.9)

Don’t be silly..... Right, well.... Right, where were we then? We were erm... Let’s go back we were sort of talking about how numbers of migrants over a certain period could obviously....

That’s right so therefore that you had the reaction was far stronger and then at that time you had the National Front as well, who were coming out and this was erm... I think music to their ears that er.. yes you know we, we, we, and they say ‘Yeah we seen lot of people’ and so on. So...I..D...I...I mean I genuinely believe that there were lot of people who were not racially prejudiced, but who felt insecure and this insecurity was that the only way that they could come out with the words well you say ‘We don’t like blacks, why don’t they go home?’ Why something like that. And er.. and so therefore, oh, to label everyone would have been I think, the....

Yeah.

....with hindsight not that I believed it.... Because I lived in a area, I lived in erm... Vicarage Road, which is not that far from here and I don’t... our neighbours were our best support and I think that they certainly kept my faith in, in er... in, in, in, the British society because they were er.. more than er.. helpful more than genuine we used to go to their home, they’ll come to our home, they’ll supported us every way and erm.. if we had even some visitors and so on they’ll say ‘Look you can have stay in our home’ and so on, which was I think when we look at now it’s, it’s er... a very difficult thing like that, but so that was the balancing act certainly for me that er.... that would be I think would be unfair to label everyone. But the fact that many people were being beaten up and people were being exposed and people were being abused, women were frightened to go to street because you...... I must say that then there was also the problem then came of not only of the between the races, but of different communities because er... for the Asians became most, I think more victim than the Afro-Caribbean a: that they were more aggressive er 2: that they had something common with the English, because that was the culture, that was the language and that was the religion and so on. So you’ll see more.. there’s this socialising was taking place more whereas the Asians were a bit more isolated, so they were the I think in many cases er... the common enemy of both of those groups at time so whereas the issues of blackness we had common but in everything else there was this hostility and I think that so for Asian they were fighting on... started fighting on both fronts....er...... and erm....which, became very difficult and particularly for women who were a bit more timid, who were a bit more withdrawn, who were a bit more fearful, oh er... I think the the, the likes of Asian women, they wanted to wear jewellery and so on and they were often so snatched and so on. And that that created another fear....

Yeah. I think you sort of..... you said earlier in terms of numbers etc....or if you’re concentrated geographically that you do look perhaps like a larger group.....

Yes.

...Then or your perceived as more of a threat. But, I think also your right I mean if you compare sort of the black communities and sort of the Asian communities visually there is a certain adoption of black culture....

Yeah.

...Where they will actually wear the same clothes.....

Yeah.

... As the western cultures.....

Yeah.

...Or the pre-existing cultures.....

Yeah. Yeah.

...The fact is; people of an Asian background have obviously religious identifications....

Yes.

...Through the clothes, the jewellery......

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Certain marks that they wear....

Yes.

...I think the fact that you will visibly stand out a lot more in a group....

That’s right yes. And also because in terms of socialising that whereas the, the Afro-Caribbean and erm... English would er... internal relationships so you’ll have more boyfriend and girlfriend relationships, so there’ll be more common other.....

Sharing music

Music. Erm... whereas with the Asians it was totally different, so you had that kind of erm.. er sort of a different reaction, but I think that these some of these events [COUGHS] obviously brought to the fore.....

Yeah.

...The.. The.... The... The....hostility that was there so you had er.. with the National Front and others bringing out some of that er.. tho.. tho... those people who openly were hostile and will say ‘Look we don’t like you, we don’t want you you’re a... go back’ and so on to the others that who will [COUGHS] say ‘That erm... erm.... well no, no we all human being we will all need each other they come here at our invitation they are serving here they are not sort of beggars outside they’re not... they’re, they’re working hard’ and then and keeping peace and so on. They’re far more law abiding than some of the erm... maybe of the white youth or Afro-Caribbean youths so it was that balancing act that people were playing, but I think that time when we started the erm er... these, these groups that came up who were I mean er.. this this, this erm... erm campaign against racial discrimination and erm it had started for erm.. I think we wanted to positive we started to campaign for racial harmony, which I chair that for nea... some years and that was to look at beyond just having meetings, public meetings but work through schools, work through community groups so where we look at developing positive relationships where we encouraged people, for instance, encouraged schools to look at ways of helping people to understand each other look at understanding the cultures, religions and so on so seeing the commonalities and this we see it as a resource rather than as a liability and er to do more community work having concerts er we involving....so that that, that kind of positive work also started to work and which encouraged a lot of people rather than to be hostile or negative and being aggressive er.. than to do er..er...use their energies into positiveness.

Mmm mm.

So I think that there was some positive coming out of that that extreme thing that that which was happening.

Do you think, I mean if you sort of look at that period, you’ve mentioned it erm.. a couple of times certain things could perhaps light, certain torch lights could spark a bigger fire perhaps and you know I mean certain incidents such as B.N.P perhaps organising a rally in your local community or a local by-election where a right wing campaigner would stand....

Yes.

Erm.. another incident for example; perhaps, perhaps be the resettlement of a group of migrants that arrived in great numbers, which we’ll obviously go on to later with the Uganda Nations, and another one would have been Politicians......

Yeah.

Which I think you’ve probably mentioned the most infamous one there in a certain Enoch Powell, and I am aware of him because I actually grew up in his ward, like I’m from Wolverhampton so his ward is actually [LAUGHS] my political ward to this day erm... I have an old neighbour who erm... I mean this is, I’ll tell you my story here [LAUGHS] He erm.. arrived from Jamaica in erm... sixty-four and he lived in Liverpool for about three years didn’t really enjoy Liverpool erm... didn’t really understand the local dialect...

Yes.

...[LAUGHS] I lived there I don’t understand it [BOTH LAUGH] he didn’t want to move down to London cos’ he had lots of friends down there, but he thought it would be too much competition for work erm... so he was looking for somewhere in the North and he quite liked the North apart from the weather so he found this place called the Black Country...

Mmmm.

...And saw it on a map and he presumed, perhaps a little naively, it would be full of black people [BOTH LAUGH] and he arrived there and he ended up living two doors away from Enoch Powell and erm... to this day he sort of often sort of he will tell me about his relationship with Enoch, which erm... he describes as a love hate relationship.

Yeah.

[LAUGHING] But I think that kind of my point is that certain politicians would actually aggravate....

Yes.

...Race relations in the local community, but it seems to me that he wasn’t just the more underground groups or sort of ostracized groups, which was B.N.P and the N.F its almost as if those within even the Labour government and certainly the Conservative Party were also taking advantage of the situation...

Oh yes.

...And I mean Callaghan was probably the XXXX Race Relations Act erm...

Yep.

...And there were others. I mean so can you tell me perhaps how you dealt with not just the local but also the national..

Yeah.

...Issue?

I think that the, the, the, the, issue certainly in that because with XXXX groups and so on as we became more aware of it then we started linking up with other groups in other parts whether they were in East London or West London or Nottingham, Birmingham and so on because suddenly there were issues that were coming up. I think one of the thing was that er.. er.. you’re right that looking at politically; I mean Enoch Powell became very vocal but I think that your quite right there were many others some were very vocal that who were on the right wing of the, the, the erm... Conservative Party er... and who, who sort of, sort of echoed what Enoch Powell who, who was a champion and so on. But you also had other politicians that who erm.... for whom votes became very more ope.... er... important rather than the morality and then who will er... not probably say as vocal as, as er... or publically as Enoch Powell did but you will know that er... they underneath that they will be using the same tactics and so on and I think it was er... the height of... I mean... I’ve later on I became member of erm... erm... Nottingham Council and erm.... and it was then that er... I realised that how racist the Labour Party itself is that who will say one thing when the crunch comes that the when then they will say well ‘Nnnnoonn no this is not what..’ And they said ‘Well you, you believe in that’, you saying that you have... ‘I love curries’ ‘I love people’ ‘ I love that’ but when it comes to an issue er then you say ‘No, no, no this is our country’ and so on er... where is that that genuineness and so on and I think that at that time that suddenly people felt and particularly those that who did not erm... have the kind of immigration that er... we were coming to or where people feel that we didn’t want to alienate it er... but there, there was this prejudice there was this sort of er... may not be prejudice but I think that exploitation of the situation that they wouldn’t go to people and say ‘We must love thy neighbour’ thing then they say yes we, we, we must cut and they will use things like that ‘Yes we must cut down immigration we must bring down this one, we have not much capacity, we want to create a better relationship, we want to’ erm.. I think er... ‘Alleviate er... people’s fears’ and so on so indirectly that you were virtually saying ‘We know what you talking about’.

Your kind of putting a positive spin erm... on racism almost [LAUGHS] it’s... it’s....

Yes. Yes. Yes but you saying is, is er what is not displeasing them but you saying in a way that, which you see well I just be erm... it’s just saying that ‘Look you know your right but we, we understand that people don’t like your beard and we understand that people don’t like the way you talk’ and so on but we want to make sure that people feel happy and so on which virtually is saying ‘Look we don’t like you.’ [LAUGHS]

You change, not us!

[LAUGHS] Yeah. That’s it. And I think there was that political pressure that’s why you had then certainly with the immigration rules of 1964 when they was rushed through XXXX, stopped people and successive governments through immigration rules, they’ve very positive moves have been made there all been to virtually play to the gallery, in a sense, because each election the, the immigration issue comes up each er.. er... election or each erm... at sort of at party po... erm... conferences this issue becomes one and I think that underneath that it is virtually er...people are reinforcing that er... people don’t have the er...oh not reached the stage where they said ‘Look hang on it’s enough is enough lets leave this out of politics lets leave this out of things lets look at the what are the real issue how we can er... help people to integrate into society and there are issues which are common to everybody not related to it why bring this issue of racism out?’ [CREAKING SOUND] So you have that kind of thing over the years and I think it was that slowly when the people became vocal, people became so you had then suddenly riots in different cities coming up then you had other pressures coming up and then I think that sometimes the governments were reacting to those pressures er.. rather than with conviction and that has been the tragedy ever since that er.. you need to have a riots in some of the streets to for some urgent action then again is the temporary one but that’s because reaction to that otherwise if people have been saying lot of thing or if as er... good governance or as a as a er.. for a positive change then you say well ‘Ok, we can see this thing sort of happening we want to do it for positive reasons rather than to reactions’, but unfortunately that, that’s the [CREAKING SOUND] kind of society we always li.... we are living in that where unless that er... er... I mean, I was talking to the, the Home Secretary then John Reed who came, moved to Leighton erm... youth centre once to consult with the community when I was involved and he was saying ‘Well you know one of the best thing we, we doing, look how much money we spending in prison building, how much money we doing in this one’ and erm.... and I stood up I said ‘Well, Home Secretary, er... I feel ashamed to be part of er... er... er... er... party that er... er.... er.... I’m committed party member served there for almost all my..... but I would be more happier if you said we are demolishing prisons, we are demolishing these institutions, which are dealing with this hatred thing and crime thing and we are demolishing things that, which will we’d because we don’t need them because of societies happier building more prison, reacting to thing after it happen’.

It’s band aid, mentality, always put the plaster on it.

It’s just there. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah well that’s not er... nothing to be proud of.

Papering over the cracks.....

And you just sort of reacting to the thing and then saying er.. and playing to the gallery in one sense and then making people temporary, and ‘Oh we doing this’ and ‘We stopping this oh we doing this’ and so on. Er that’s not the kind of society that’s er.... I would want our children to be living in rather that we are saying ‘Well we are taking positive action.. we tak....’ And this was also; I mean I remember that at that time there was a lot of hostility on the Priory Court Estate and in Chingford Estates where the policy was to bang every homeless or everybody in those high rise flats....

Undesirables of society.

Undesirables yes. Yes. Yeah and therefore you’re bound to get reaction, you bound to get that er.. if you put all the, the, the, the, the, people that who are er.. very aggressive, frustrated they going to fight with each other and then race will become issue and erm... and that was er... er... bad policy and we were saying to councils and other local government officers er... and er.... and central government that this kind of policy is er... not very helpful your virtually condemning the condemned er... and erm... your saying ‘No, no these are the bad ones we will just take them away and put them in together it’s just like sort of putting.. sending them to some island as punishment and so on what you expect from that?’ So you had to have that policy in housing it was also issued for education that what kind of er... education what kind of syllabus were we would teaching in schools and so on. What kind of erm... social facilities, environments I mean... I er.... I started my youth work in, in er late sixty-seven, late sixty-eight; where they say ‘Look we need to get Asian young people involved because we getting afro-Caribbean others erm if we want to socialise people because we can’t simply say let’s meet together for what? We need a common space where there was a cricket there where there was a sort of music there then so teaching each other’ and er... what we do we shut down all the youth centres er... and the ideas well ‘No, no we’ll have these teams of people who will go where the problem is’ so we said ‘Well.... it’s like another policing that you wait until something happen’ otherwise er... even that is no longer available that they say ‘That somebody break our windows or steals’ they said ‘Is it a personal injury? No. Fine we’ll just write it da, da...’ So you change away... and that time was the same one that where people was saying ‘Well where we going? What is happening? What kind of protection we have?’ When you have a large crowd of people that who the majority there er... who have children who have other insecurities and then you have social deprivation and that one then nobody taking action erm... And when I was in Nottingham the councillor I was chair of the Housing and we had this similar XXXX there were certain er... areas where no police will go and we’re saying ‘Well why you don’t go?’ He said ‘Well, they’re all drug addicts and so on so it’s better to leave them, so it’s a safety and we don’t want to go because they will have knives’ and so on I said ‘Well virtually you’re saying that that’s a no go area, you asking, and if who else will go there?’ And er.....

Drug dealers and that’s it.

Those kind of....And so you have a similar kind of thing going on from that time, I said we haven’t learned anything from there. I’m glad that they’re now demolishing those flats and bringing down lower one, but obviously that has been because not because that there, there is er... er consciousness change because they were these high flats are expensive it was taking us twenty thousand [LAUGHS] pounds per year for every flat because er....

Not a social conscious more of a financial conscious. [LAUGHS]

Yes, yes, yes that was and I also said.... well I knew because well we’re sitting there and they said now we have to demolish this... I says ‘Why?’ ‘Because it’s costing us twenty thousand pounds a year so it’s financially not viable’. I read the Margret Thatcher’s erm.. plan for this er.. selling of things and so on er.. so you have these political manoeuvring going on over the years, which was to, for financial or political convenience rather than the needs of the people.

Mmm Hmm.

And I think that and people read it differently and you have the racist group that who will use it through for their purposes and, and er.. I mean it was interesting that erm... erm.. why it was erm.. I think it was long after obviously ninety-six, ninety-seven, I was doing some work in Dockland area, and where they had elected the first B.N.P er.. on the council and I was asking people I say ‘Why did you say well you know we hate them, but we wanted to kick the Labour Party and this was the only way to, to, to, to, because they were doing things and so on not that we loved them but we, we....’

Protest voters.

Protest voters. But this is how the protest voters always manage life they look at what..how the people frustrated they’ll look at how people are emotionally disengaged from there and then they will come in and do it. And we think why wait, why wait, why don’t you do something about? So yeah, so I mean, it’s been a different.

Mmm. Hmm. So I mean if again we can overview leading up to the late sixties and early seventies then you’ve got seems to me quite a disjointed, erm society erm and then you’ve got other er... agitators and say political actors kind of taking advantage of it, the outside, and on top of that all of a sudden in the late sixties after this mass economic migration you start to have these resettlement of migrants...

Yes.

...who were actually arriving because of persecution..

Yes.

...back home and in the mix obviously you had sort of East Africa seemed to come to the fore in the late sixties, early seventies, because of the upheaval that was going on in that part of the world, so can you perhaps [SMACKS LIPS] talk more about your specific role perhaps the erm... So you said you joined the resettlement erm... board...

Right.

...Can you tell me perhaps where you were when you heard about Idi Amin when he made his rather crazy proclamation that no one quite believed initially ‘You’ve got 90 days to get out!’

Yes.... I mean obviously we were, we were, er.. seeing er... Idi Amin few years before when he came to power and er.. his er.. craziness erm.. particularly when he invited Callaghan to visit him and he picked a small hut because he said ‘He wanted a white man to bow him’ and normal circumstances no will do that [LAUGHS] so it was er... er... a demonic sort of er... er... act of er... sort of thought that he said ‘Well ok, I’ll, I’ll erm... make sure’,but that was, that showed his idiocy as his craziness that er.. we say ‘Well you know these kind of er.. gimmicks don’t make you any greater’ and so on but that was him.

In the same way that Enoch Powell’s gimmick of...

That’s right.

Political speech didn’t make him particularly successful politician.

That’s right. That’s right. Because when you are in that position you are more responsible you have to think very carefully, you have to think that the implication of that it maybe at that time very er... plausible or very self erm... promoting but it is damage to it’ll do to er.. the society if er.. long time. And erm so yes... Idi Amin was there but nobody expected that he will [CLINKING SOUND] er.. act one day soon particularly that erm when the Asian community in Uganda were very prominent, were successful business men and so on and we believed that when he started some of the people were coming from Uganda, Kenya, Nir... Tanzania at that time they were indicating that er... you know the man is crazy he’s er.. he see’s Asian’s as a threat er... and he see’s that he expects that they will promote him they’ll give money and so on and there a bit more of a different level and he had his advisors and so on you know who say look these people are this that and the other and like in any society you get that er... until that he reached a stage where he said ‘I’ll give you ninety days to get out of this and that’ and people believed that ‘No, no it’s no more than a threat er... he will probably be well pressure’, and so on, and er... obviously Robert Carr, whose Lord Carr, now was the Home Secretary at that time and who was er... Pressurising erm...for other countries, commonwealth countries saying look ‘No. No. Hang on be, be sort of what’s the problem? But I think that he thought he was as a might but er... he everybody’s coming to him and he said ,Brrr, your either take nationality or you get out’, and so on and I think for a lot of people obviously, that we knew of later on they said ‘Well, they felt that if this crazy man is like that even if we became national we have nothing he could nationalise everything, he can prosecute us, he can throw us out again’, so many of the upper-class and middle-class people thought no, no the best thing is to go.

Those who could afford to leave early as well

Yes. Yes that’s it although the ordinary working-class they had nothing to...to... most of them weren’t nationals anyway, but it was the only erm... the business community that who erm held British Passports or Pakistani or Indian or other one. And er... I think that once they realised that people when the people started coming they said ‘Well, well now that that this treat is there so whether they will... he will persecu... er.. or put in practise or not people say no, no enough is enough we are going’, and so the whole influx. And so to organise this the government set up the Ugandan Nations resettlement board nationally and erm... then they obviously in order to work they asked local people to help erm... in er... providing support and so in the East London a number of churches and a number of community groups they got together and they sort of set up the local er... Ugandan Nations resettlement committee er... which, was to help resettle people in this area and erm..

So can you ask how erm.. obviously, he was organised at a local level but what input did the national government actually have at this point?

Well the national government it was the national board obviously...

[COUGHS]

Were liaising with us in terms of a: providing information about where the refugees is when they coming and erm... where they are staying and erm... so that they could have space for so many and so on and secondly; was about their background about what sort of say for instance that if they were Hindu’s or Sikh’s or Muslim’s so that we will know that which, community will be easier to do that... also the kind of skills that they’re having so that if there are local erm... needs for jobs and so on so it could be easily done er... education so that we will know that how many children are involved so how many schools will be needed what sort of thing and so on so we can begin to look at er... talk with people schools and so on. That’s the kind of thing that was there er... and er... so once we started work the local community relation council was to act as er...one of the chief executive directors secretary administrator. So first of all was our role was to see that look can we, we needed to have some local accommodation.

What do they need? What do we have?

What do we have? And erm...sort of and what we need to what are the gaps and what are the things like that? So there was erm... a big building in Chingford erm.... trying to remember it’s er... number where it was a large hall, where we’d start to bring in the families so they would come to their er... their, their centres, their camps then they will be moved to different parts of the country and we handled about hundred and seventy families in... in... East London and erm... so it was that when they come in we’ll obviously have a registration, we will work with the local job centre see what sort of jobs are available and match them with them and erm... Secondly liaise with the school to see that what sort of age range children are there and so on what they can do and... Registering with the doctors [CLINCKING SOUND] erm... if they were disabled or any other physical or social needs then they say ‘Oh with the social services’. So it was the local authorities were involved as well so there was all the er... agencies that, who would have to provide something so they were helping and supporting and er... as people the first part was actually sitting there and making them feel at home er... lot of them obviously left because they could only carry twenty ‘k’ or whatever they and some of the people who had less possessions there they were much at least comparatively better off because they didn’t leave that much behind but those who had large number for example live in palatial houses and servants and cars and so on they left every thing there so for them to mentally er... be, be sort of settling here was is a re traumatic process is similar er not as er.. similar to the immigration process that we came because we came ourselves where they were forced to.. to come there.

Yeah. I think there is a big difference between... I mean obviously you starting off this whole thing cultural adaption and perhaps experienced the same prejudice that they experience, but I think in the mind set of an individual and I say you know I say this I have been an economic migrant before I’ve lived in the U.S but erm... I’ve certainly never been a forced refugee or experienced religious or political persecution, but I think in terms of your own identity, as a migrant, it can change your perception of the world and not only the way that people perceive you but the way the way you perceive them, if your if you got that status as asylum seeker or refugee. So I agr... yeah.... it probably a very dawned on them.....

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Because here you are forced to er... go somewhere with nothing at all leaving behind a luxurious life all your possessions and so on and erm... there was this... this initial er... helping them get some of our members some of our families to meet with them and erm... help them to just feel at home and they were provided with food, provided with... and most of them obviously it wasn’t the kind of thing that we provided them from a hotel and so on but they... they could do it and so on they wanted I mean.... the main thing was that they wanted to live with dignity and they didn’t just want to be seen as beggars and so on they say look ‘All we need is some parts, all we need is this one’ and so on and then we’ll and then slowly..... Most of them were obviously because they were business men and so on so they were very creative some of them said ‘No, no, we don’t want any money we want to... tell us what our opportunities are there we will set up our own’. Whether it was some small shop or some selling from home and so on. And erm.... I think that we also needed to deal with the public and how they see reaction because they were erm... it was er.. like erm... I remember er... not connected with this but er... my earlier years erm... in, in, in, hostility that there were a group of young people that who erm... where in Chingford bikers and so on who were always very aggressive ‘No no!’ they said [IN A GRUFF TONE] and the youths worker there he asked me to come ‘Can you come and talk with them?’ so I said ‘Ok’ and the thing is that it was the... the numbers games sort of saying ‘You know all these people are coming here they’re taking our jobs, they’re taking our this’ and so on the same XXXX and so I said ‘How many people you think live in Walthamstow?’ ‘Oh two-million’ I said ‘Well there are not er... two hundred and fifty – two hundred thousand people are in total how can be two million?’ erm..... How many in jobs – ‘Oh they’re taking all our jobs, sixty percent our jobs’ I said ‘Well, they can’t be because they are only five percent of them’ and, and when we and the kind of figures they come up with it was enormous and I said ‘Well where do you get these ideas?’ ‘Oh yes’, everybody says ‘No, no, they don’t they no two million if you include all Afro-Caribbean, all Asian, all non-English there’s not two million in the whole country never mind in Walthamstow’. er... so you have that kind of sort of peoples stuck in there they ‘Oh yes, my God there’s er...’ and you exaggerate so same was here that they thought all these millions of people are going to come they say ‘No, no they are not million they’re only I think it was about eighty thousand people that who were totally going to be quite a number of them going to be....quite a number of them went to Pakistan to India but most quite a large number went....

I think twenty-eight thousand came to Britain eventually, but I’d say that was probably evenly split between Leicester and London. So London itself probably only got about twelve thousand...

That’s right yes... Because they tried to divert most people into the other commonwealth countries; so you had this one and er... one of the interesting thing was erm... quite a bigger hostility came from the Asian community themselves and erm... I was constantly approached you know ‘Don’t... don’t... settle them here!’, you know and I said and there reason was different they felt it a threat they said ‘Well here for a long time they lived under this camouflage of we’re Muslims erm... we, have a different language we have a different language we don’t deal with this we don’t with....’ Here these were the same Muslims people most of them but very open and very sort of erm... liberal in their thing. So lot of them thought well and er... the reason they gave is said you know these people they come in and they will.. they are very liberal they go out for parties and so on and they saw it as a threat, which, was very strange I said ‘Well they’re our people; if nobody else they’re our people, in a sense not only they’re, they’re only Pakistani Asian or what background and so on but they’re refugees they’re here, they need our support’ and er.... Out of all the groups - why you? I thought that you will be the one what who will be saying ‘Well there are our people we will we will give them’, but there was a strange reason they felt that they will come they will bring a different standard, they will have bit more liberal attitude about relationship, about boys going, girls going out, marriages all the thing and this will threaten our sort of cosy little thing er... of course we said well that’s a silly thing and it’s not in our remit and so on but I will rather that you help but if you can’t help just keep your mouth shut don’t be like the National Front and erm... so we, we, we, managed to settle erm... families slowly er... local authority found some houses for them some of them who were smaller families rented places erm... people started getting... there was quite a lot of them were skilled for getting jobs as well er... people I think it was er... during the year that almost ninety percent were, were settled er... and one reason because they themselves were so enthusiastic they felt them self er... so willing to do.... go out of their way to do it that most of the younger people will be searching jobs every day. Most of the girls will be going out and saying ‘Look’ and they didn’t feel shamed and they say ‘Look we need we don’t want to be burden on the state we don’t want to be staying in a hostel’.

Why do you think that was? Because I mean... the thing...I mean we’ll go on to this perhaps later in terms of; but,... but I mean the Ugandan Asians migrants are kind of held up as almost the most successful erm... forced migrant group ever to arrive on the shores of Britain and I’d probably argue over all as well as seen as probably the most successful and they’re almost used as like the shining example of how migration can work.

Yes

Anybody who is pro-migration will always use Ugandan Asians as an example of how it can work....

Yes...

...If dealt with properly...

Yes.

...Why do you think that was? I mean you’ve men... you’ve touched on it the fact that they had this kind of resounding need not to be a burden and but.. but even so where does that come from do you think?

I think that they was... that there was this was ... first of all that they were the kind of people that who were successful in their life, people that who had skills in their life and people who had pride in themselves and they were saying ‘Well we did not come here erm... so were not sort of erm... looking at up to other people we came because we were forced to it but, we still have our own pride, we still have our own dignity we still want to.. we can do things and if given the opportunity’ or they were saying ‘Look, erm.. just give us a space er... were we want to stand on our own feet’. They were not the labour class working that who were saying ‘Look we don’t know anything, we don’t have thing so we just need a job’ and so on – they were saying look ‘Ok we need this space; we need to just maintain our self respect and dignity’ because they came from that area; and then the, they were saying ‘Well we have something to offer, we are... Compared to the other where they were simply looking for a labour position’, they were saying ‘No we have skills, we have knowledge, we have experience and erm... We just want to be on our own’. Because they felt that the life they lived to be here was erm... Very erm... undignified er... and they say look ‘The sooner we want to get out of here, the sooner we want to stand on our own two feet and I think there was this desire to be er... standing on their own feet er... it was not that well we’ll see, well we’ll ... it was not the kind of thing that they will say well ‘Ok we’ll live here as long as we can and until they push us out’ they say ‘No, no we, we want to get on we want to build our – re-build our life we want to be as successful as we... they are there and we want to just be our self, we don’t want to be numbers, we don’t want to be er... registering everything, we don’t want people coming in and like er.. erm... we are on a show piece - these are the refugees!’ and so on’ so they felt that this was erm... it would be less humiliating if we just get on with our life as ordinary as well so we’re not a different breed. I think these were combination of that that self rights, self determination er.. based on skills, the knowledge and seeing that the lifestyle they had and there they said ‘Want to get out’ and erm.. Particularly settle down and get our children into that mode that we are not sort of totally different so they don’t have this inferiority complex building up.

Do you think that erm... I mean I certainly completely agree I mean this interview isn’t about my perception it is about yours, but from the interviews I’ve conducted so far it seems that there was this motivation amongst the community erm... to achieve the status that they had worked hard for previously. [BOTH COUGH]

Yes.

We have discussed already that like with any other migrant group, including you yourself when you arrived here in 1964, I presume, there’s a certain cultural adaption that you have to do erm... First thing most people say erm... if you’ve come from, say a more tropical part of the world, it’s the weather. That seems to be the British weather I mean, it’s become- you know I mean it’s become almost a cliché of what you have [LAUGHS] to deal with in Britain erm... But, I mean would you say that they er.. it helped the fact that they came from a colonial power? And you know it just seemed to me erm... with the Ugandan Asians that did arrive a lot of the Guajarati violence mainly had already been chucked to Uganda in the first place to actually work in the bureaucracy of the British system and so they were quite aware of the British system I think they were also quite aware of like the culture of Britain they say even though it was within Uganda erm.. as a colonial power – do you think that helps? Do you think that helped the transition that perhaps other groups didn’t have to deal with?

Yep. I think so, and you’re absolutely right and this is what I was saying is that because the kind of status and because of the kind of position and because of the closeness to the powers there, and er... obviously some of them had been there for long, long time some of them were the er...er... oh...er...the defecto.. I mean... rulers underneath the British XXXX so they were er... well aware... and they had all the privileges, the knowledge and skill of the system and society and I think that was one of the reason why the British also choose they were very selective in their saying that who will be the one and so on and because they felt that these would be assets to us and they knew it and all of the other working class and so on they will go because they will feel a bit more comfortable there. So yes, because they understood the structure they understood the, the, the, the, er... way the system works as well as much as er... far more than labour migrants one. So it was easier for them to adjust because they knew the language most of them were well spoken and so on quite a lot of children were well educated and so on they were successful business people and so they knew that the... how to develop [DING DONG] and the.... all they were saying give us the space we will do that and they knew that they how they sort of er... relate to other people at a higher level and I think they, these were the er... all the part of the ingredients for their being successful, when they wanted to move on.

Yeah, completely. Erm can we move back to erm sort of you’ve mentioned you - almost two kind of characters [BACKGROUND TALKING] that were in the resettlement camps that your eventually your board had to deal with and help allocate resources to erm... the perhaps higher echelons in society the more successful ones er... who actually...

Yeah.

You said you could see they were because they had a few more possessions than the others... [LAUGHS]

Yes...

It also had the ones who were lesser – it’s almost like a dual system within that group erm... Can you perhaps tell me about some of the individuals that you met – I mean did you ever go to the resettlement camps or were you just....

Oh yes.

Can you tell me about the sort of eyes you looked into the emotions they were showing as they came off the plane perhaps, perhaps put a more human side to it, to the story.

I mean I wasn’t there when they came out of plane that was dealt by the central one but, when the people were coming erm.. I mean we went to the, the, the, this camps resettlement camps but then we... as they came here in Waltham Forest that was one of the campaigns here er, one was here in er I think it was erm... that hall in, in, in East London so there were two centres and I would go regularly er.. other people won’t but I made my business to go and talk with them and I think that the er.. I mean the, the feeling I was getting that there was erm... er.. ss.... very pride I mean see that it was not something people were crying out oh we left this possession and so on they were saying well ok they erm [SNIFFS] erm... they didn’t let us feel that they have that they defeated that they were saying well yes we have had obviously er... this bad experience of course that we er.. that we had this sort of most of our possession gone but we still have confidence in our self we will built up we will live I mean when you talk to erm... them and they say and they will share their stories and they said that erm... one man said ‘Look I had erm two large stores, I had employed so many people and how I built it up how I started from a little shop and how I built it up how I invested lot of money in charity community groups there’ and so on and I would ask them ‘Well, why didn’t you stay there?’ er... he say well we could have but I think that we, we could see the writing on the wall that er.. the kind of mentality that was coming out the kind of this that you could feel the same in some other countries where you built up and hysteria and anti community that it was question that now we can handle XXXX tomorrow our lives would be at risk, so we have taken that choice and we said ‘ok we can built up we have the basic skills, knowledge, XXXX’ and er this comes and goes doesn’t matter but we save ourselves our children and so on. And they say we feel sad, sad that we what we’ve done to the nation, sad that all we have invested all our life and that has not been valued er we still hope that someday we can go back er.. but we, we, we, are not defeated.

Do you think it helps in terms of success – I mean you’ve touched on something there ‘they’d hope they’d go back’, and I know sort of once Amin died you had proceeding governments but it really wasn’t until the current government sort of over the last few years that actually genuinely they...

Yes.

Turned around and said you can come back and we will actually compensate you with what you lost forty years ago, thirty-five years ago..

Yes.

Erm... would you think the fact that we talked about the success of the Uganda Nations Asian community... I mean in terms of entrenching themselves within British society, financial society most certainly and British culture as well..

Yes... Yes.

I mean, their sort of celebrated – I was chatting to Prafal Patel during the interview and he sort of celebrates the cultural effect that Ugandan Asians had on Britain with the ‘corner shop’ mentality, he pretty much sort of the feet of the Ugandan Asian community erm... Do you think the fact that they know they were refugees the fact that they didn’t really foresee themselves going back in the short term, regardless of the long term dreams of returning back the reality was whilst Amin was there they were not gonna be there....

Yeah...

Do you think that helped with them actually secure sort of like plant roots and build foundations in Britain – ‘Cos they knew this was it.. there wa... not many of them were really cos’ I think it seems a lot of them were percieved as being Indian or Gudurati but a lot of them hadn’t even been to India i’ve done interviews with the children of Ugandan migrants - So do you think that helps?

I think so, i think that because it was er...a XXXX at that time, I mean that they, they’ve travelled that’s it as far as Ugandan are concerned but they left it there and for them Idi Amin could live another fifty years and so on. They said well look we’ll change it most of them feel this chapter is closed we don’t want to be just living in hope they said ok we want to build up this is our country now we are here we want to build up and build up on our experiences and resources whatever we have and move on. I think that determination was very helpful because they were not in two boats, they were not saying well maybe we’ll wait, maybe we’ll sit in dirty eastender for two years and maybe we’ll go back but no I think they’re, they’re this was the best thing positive things that they were saying nope it’s chapter is closed we are here – we are here because of our choice they say well ok we we limited choices but we could have chosen to accept that and take the risk and hope maybe it never happen and so on but on the other hand we say no this is erm... we don’t want to live in this once this is starting this when you have like in Kenya, Mau Mau thing when you have other like in er... Zimbabwe when you have Mugabe’s crowneys and so on; so you you they say look ok we feel that once somebody has put our whole life work on stake and question mark then they say well we will could see the writing on the wall they say ok its better to go while we are we can. And so I think that was the determination they say we want to build up we don’t want to live off state, we don’t want to do anything of this but we want to build up I think that that helped tremendously.

And let’s go back to obviously your role within the board, well not just specifically your role I mean the role of the board itself – who made up the resettlement board?

The The The local one?

The local one – yeah.

The local one was you had most of the churches, you had most of the community organisations like the Community Relations Council and all the other er groups that who were interested you had the Pakistani, Indian, Bangladeshi community groups so it was er about forty, fifty groups that who were there they were all part of that one of course after that we had about twelve member executive that who will XXXXX that one. And that was as I say primarilly like the Community Relations Council; erm.. the political parties they had their representatives then you had the some of the churches and some of the community organisations, so it was very much a mixture bag of local...

Umbrella...

Yes. Yes...

And would you say that.. was there any surprising aspects of this cos’ you said I mean we’ve discussed the community that was you know pretty divided at the time, erm and not just this community....

Yes...

I mean society in Britain in general certainly society that had mixed multicultural erm.. population, erm... were you surprised? I mean you were talking about the silent majority earlier, I mean were any of these silent majority actually come out and cos.... you’ve obviously erm the resettlement will have required a lot of volunteers?

Yes...

A lot of people opening their homes...

Yes...

You know, their sort of like, offering people a sofa to sleep on were you surprised by the.. perhaps the...

I think that yes it was that when you sort of er... when we started saying to people we need help and so on that the number of people, particularly the English people coming in was erm... was certainly surprising abnd erm... who would er... some would say well we can come and erm serve the sort of talk with people, some will come and say well we can take them around, some of them will say they can come and stay with us and so on. And quite a number of them [CREAKING SOUND] offered accommodation which was obviously helpful because they said well flats there which suited some people and so on. And some people will erm.. erm... will say look ok we can organise some cultural thing and so on. I think that was the best out of it erm... obviously you will always get a sizeable people come in but coming out which was very encouraging for some of these and they they apprieciate and this is the best welcome we can expect we thought that maybe we hear about the hostilities and we hear about this thing but this is the best one and I think we we wanted to play on that, we wanted to say look how good the community relations we have how good the local people are in their their desire to welcome people and so on. And erm how much they are willing to accommodate these new cultures, new systems and so on erm.. we didn’t get erm... that many from the Afro-Caribbean community er, but they were still sizeable particularly through churches because you had the black churches far more helpful and er.. so they will say well look we can they’ll organise some time luncheon for them in their churches bring these people to mix up with people and erm... so I think that that was the exciting part of it that you had so many good people coming out erm... supporting erm... these small number of people erm.. from a different country although there was hostility in terms of erm... against Idi Amin and so on... Erm... that was understandable generally, but certainly erm...we’ve found that people were helpful er... I mean to say apart from some Asian community leaders I mean underneath some of the the individuals er...such I mean we’ve got a number of young girls who say ‘look we can talk with young girls there help them to understand what the sort of schooling system and so on so we’ll take them to school – to take them to some time see City of London and so on simillar with boys as well that we can perhaps organise a five-a-side cricket club and so on things to keep them engaged and keep them making a at home as much as possible.

Just integrate them...[BOTH TALK AT ONCE] XXXXX aspect

Yes...that’s right.

I mean are you proud of your work? I mean I don’t... again I am specifically about the resettlement board here because that’s the topic but I mean I’m quite aware of your work in terms of community involvement I’ve read Joel’s interview, which he enjoyed greatly may I add [LAUGHTER] erm.. yeah.. you’re very.... I mean you look back out of all the things you’ve done do you see the resettlement your role in the resettlement board as quite an important part of that?

I think that... I think that it was erm... certainly when with hindsight I feel very happy erm.. for two things one is that er.. I learnt a great deal, how the community works in crisis I feel that I learned a great deal how that we can pull resources together in times of crisis – I feel pride that I was able to to help and some of those were not that many of older people left there, but they’re some that when I see them and they still come and kiss my hand sometimes I’ll go out of way they remember that and I think that gives me pride that erm.. people although I didn’t do that much erm.. I mean I feel I wish I could have done far more [COUGHS] but at least that if people remember that well those times that you did well and erm... I dfeel that er.. yes it does makes me very, very happy that I was able to make contribution er.. in the [COUGHS] thinking that if I was in their position I would hope somebody will do the same er.. if nothing else make me feel important er... when you go to them and they feel somebody’s come to see us and syay look we are here to support and help in whatever we... it gives them tremendous erm... energy... tremendous help and a boost in their morale sort of er... sort of... feeling and thinking and that in itself is something which makes me very happy and erm... I ‘m glad that we were able to help them to help them settle all of them some of them were successful business’ very few have gone back [COUGHS] erm... and erm... obviously some when the opportunities came well I think [ COUGHS] they went back couple of times just to see things but [COUGHS] most of them feel happy settled here they feel that they made it and they are now they don’t want to erm... create another upheaval in their lives. I think most of the children don’t want to go back [COUGHS] i think in they’ve seen the whole [COUGHS] part of Africa is not very settling and so it we better there – so yeah – it makes me happy, it makes me erm... proud of what we did altogether collectively, [COUGHS] and I was glad that I was erm... able to spend so much time. At the end I did end up in hospital for exhaustion and so on but erm... erm... it was erm.. nothing I think because at least we, we undertook something and we were able to [COUGHS] I thought that we maybe able to erm... not finish in one year [COUGHS] time because the pressure was there but I think our determination, their determination and their own willingness to help themselves was the best part of it yeah.

I mean you said that it was it only as year you were sipulated?

Sorry?

Where you only sipulated a year? Or were you aware that you had to get it done within a year?

No. It was just because at the end of the year we had almost done....

Right.

I think there was only about five or six famillies left.

That’s quite a good turnover – is it a hundred and seventy did you say?

Yes.

Impressive.

Very well. And I said that because everybody worked very hard and I think that as we saying that because everybody was so keen to move on and get settled and so on so for them the year was for some too long. But for us I think that knowing the nature of things and was is erm.. so so yeah but but because at the end of year [COUGHS] I needed to go to university so then I decided no the work is done and then I can go XXXX.....

XXXX You did mention like a couple of instances where you XXXX the elders XXXX and move to other parts of the country and still here; how do you feel now when you see them perhaps walking with their grand kids around the area, you know?

I think that the [COUGHS] I mean about erm... six months ago I was at a session [COUGHS] poetry session [COUGHS] that I was presiding, one gentlemen who was a poet as well, very elderly now [SNIFFS] he brought his grandson [COUGHS] and erm.. he said afterward, he said erm... er.. this is a man and erm... I wanted him to know that who was here to welcome us and help us and wanted him to remember that and then he said look I wanted er.. he the grandson he was about ten – eleven now – he said we wanted to have a photograph with you and erm... I think that made me proud, that made feel very happy that erm... after all those years the third generation and he still remembers that and he values that and he still wanted him to have a photograph with me and to remember and tell – he said [COUGHS] my grandfather always tells me that story and because I used to go and spemd some time talking with them because of erm... [BABY CRYING IN BACKGROUND] erm... I had more time because I was going to university so I had a year off so I could. I had one English erm.. Pat erm... erm.. I’ll remember her name; she’s erm... she used to live in Billericay but she had a shop erm....this erm... in a high street market stall and erm... she was erm... very enthusiastic about her and I didn’t have a car that time, she had a car so she will everyday take me everywhere and we used to go there and erm... so [COUGHS] at that time when we felt lonely in oneself although we had large number of people and some of them knew each other but in a strange country in a strange place that you spend so much time making us feel at home and erm... so XXXX I think that whole; it’s just so grateful, I’m so grateful to them I said sometimes people forget and erm they say well it’s come and gone it’s.... erm... I never forgotten as well you saying it’s part of the job, part of work we do and you don’t want to simply saying well I’m the one who did this and so on we were part of it and we do a whole range of things it was good to remember.

I think that’s very modest of you as well – Dr Khan to be honest... I think ....

Well... erm... but yeah I mean feel that erm... I always looked at things and said well what if I was in their shoes – what if I was there what would be I expecting if nothing else sympathy, care; warmth, can’t do anything else at least let er.....and the worst thing will be when you are down people walk away and I think that that erm... they had everything at that time except that they were refugees er... in a different land, penniless er... and erm... all they needed at that time was saying look be sympathetic.. Give us space and this was least we could have done.

And the rest they helped themselves XXXX

Yes.

Erm... We’ll start to wind it up now, erm... you’ve covered pretty much – I mean this is a great sound bites there....

Thank you.

I think it’s really important because a lot of the interviews we’re doing are either people who actually were part of the resettlement period themselves or their children and I think that it is very important to get your perspective cos’ you’re the almost; not an outsider you’re very much an integral part of the machine....

Yes.

Logistical support. But I think also you were there and you can give a bit more of an outsiders perception about what actually went on...

Ok.

During that period. On top of that then I’m gonna ask you – do you think erm... in terms of the resettlement board if obviously I have got your email address erm... I’d like for this project – I’ve told you we’ve signed up with Praful Patel, and he’s gonna be really useful in sort of....

Yes.

Outreach into the Ugandan Asian community in London erm... but what I’d quite like is to try and get as many perceptions of people like you actually people who took part who were I know you’re not British but you actually were British entitled you’re part of the British establishment lets say the local community people who actually helped Ugandan Asians when they arrived so perhaps in the next few weeks I will contact you via email erm perhaps if you can try and start thinking of people who are on the resettlement board in the local area, look people who are still alive and around I appreciate it was over forty years ago – you know it’s not exactly – I barely remember what happened yesterday [LAUGHTER] So yeah, if you can start to think of people who might be useful and might have a useful perception of what actually happened I’d really appreciate that.

Yep. No problem.

And I think beyond that all I have to say is thank you very much sir... I really do appreciate it.. I can turn this thing off now so I don’t have to write all this down...

No.

(Please Check from page 17 – 28) Thanks

The End

Transcript not to be used without copyright

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Shaukat Khan

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date:

Language: English

Venue: Marylebone, London

Name of interviewer: Greig Campbell

Length of interview: 77:24

Transcribed by: Natalie Mbunga

Archive Ref: 2012_esch_UgAs_09

Ok. So this is, Lwam Tesfay em…interviewing Hansa. On the fourteenth of February two thousand and thirteen. If you can just start by saying em, if you can start of, start of by saying your full name and date of birth and where you were born.

Ok. So this is, Lwam Tesfay em…interviewing Hansa. On the fourteenth of February two thousand and thirteen. If you can just start by saying em, if you can start of, start of by saying your full name and date of birth and where you were born.

My name is Hansa Patel, and my date of birth is second November nineteen forty five. I was born in Uganda, Tororo, East Africa.

Mm.

My father name is XXXX, my mother name is, was em, Munaben XXXX. We are, four sisters and three brothers. Right.

Four sisters, three brothers. And, where are you placed, are you in the middle?

Ya. I am the fourth one.

The, the youngest girl?

No. I’m middle one.

Middle one. OK, so…

Then…

Whereabouts did you grow up? In…

I grow in Africa, fourteen years, when I was fourteen years, I studied there, primary and junior school, I went back home.

Mm.

For the further study. There I study up to metric, XXXX eleventh.

Yeah. So whereabouts in, Ugand... you grew up, grew up in Tororo?

Ya.

What was it like there?

Beautiful place.

Yeah?

We enjoyed there. We go in the school in the morning. And em, we have got, we there for ten o’clock, then we have got, we come back, have a lunch, and after, then again go to school for the afternoon class.

Mm.

Then we come back home. Then we go to first er, you know, playing, some needle work in the evening time. We know, they, we make small cloths, apron, everything in the school with the needles.

Was this just for the girls or, everybody?

For the girls. Make cloths, small cloths, skirt.

Yeah.

Pants, small small, when, small, for the small kids we make er, knickers and handkerchief. And we do embroidery on the handkerchief.

Is this like a British school, or was it an Indian school, what kind of school was it?

Er, its Indian public school but its run by British. First it was made by Indian, and then afterwards, it take by government, British government.

Mm.

So we learn there, every subject in English. Only we have got one subject our mother tongue Gujarati. Hindi speaker…Punjabis, learn Urdu language. They got one hour for their language. We go for one hour four hour Guajarati language.

What do you remember doing after school?

Ya.

When you came back home, after you finished school what did you do?

Ya, we come home. You know after ten o’clock we go home, have a lunch…

Yeah.

And…then change the clothes and again, come for the afternoon class for the Maths, Science and English we were teached there.

What, what did your parents do?

My parent is em, soap factory.

Shop factory?

Ya that making soap for making, washing clothes.

Ok soap, yeah.

Ya my mother was er…housewife.

Yeah.

Looking kids.

Yeah. Did your dad own the factory or did he work there?

No his own factory.

His own factory?

Ya.

How many workers did he have?

He has got nearly twelve, fifteen workers. Making soap, and then, they, put in the container. Hot XXXX soap, and, leave it there for two three days. When it comes, cold, they take out the boxes has got screw. The open the screw then that loft come. They cut by machine. And then press by, you know, press machine, they er… olive oil, sunlight soap, you know?

Yeah.

They make olive oil soap.

And then he, sell it to the shops? Will it be like, Asian shops or British customers or everybody…

Any soaps.

So even to African people?

Any soap.

Yeah.

He has got his customer, buy them.

Yeah. Did you ever use to help, at the factory, or…no?

No.

Why not?

We never go to factory, my daddy never take us, with the factory. You know XXXX factory.

Was it near the house, or a little bit further out?

One mile, nearly, two miles away from the house.

What area was it?

It was em…

Do you know?

…between Mbale and Tororo.

And what was school like?

It’s very beautiful.

Yeah?

Too disciplined.

What was the building like, can you remember?

Ya. It’s very nice.

Big?

Ya. Big school.

Did you have…?

We have got er, own dresses, we have to wear. They, from school they gave books, notebooks and schoolbooks.

Did you wear uniform?

Ya.

What colour?

We have got white top and blue skirt.

Yeah. What about, did you have any family that came with you to the schools, your brothers and sisters they came, with you?

Ya, the all study in same school.

Any cousins?

No, we have got no cousin there. No uncle aunty.

What about religious holidays, when you celebrate with family?

Ya.

Can you remember any of those?

The neighbour all are just like family.

Yeah.

All are Indian, so all are, so we remember, we know, that we all er, celebrate our Diwali…

Yeah.

…holy festival.

Can you remember helping your mum get ready, cooking?

No.

No? Why not? [LAUGHS].

My two sisters are bigger than me. [LAUGHS].

So you didn’t have to do it.

[LAUGHS]. No.

You just go outside and play?

Ya.

What kind of games did you use to play?

Ya we play foot…basketball, and em, that you know, hockey. In the evening time we play hockey, basketball, then we call rounder, the bat is just ground. What we call here we don’t know but there we call rounder. We put the, you know…

Yeah.

…round, er ring. The girls play like this. [GESTURES WITH HAND].

Oh ok, hula hoop, like this? [GESTURES WITH HAND].

They put around six or seven. One girl stand there, hold the bat, in the middle there is one XXXX, one person stand there and throw the ball.

Yeah.

Just like cricket.

Mm.

Then, the…

You have to run, like this? [GESTURES WITH HAND].

Then, up to, if the person that doesn’t come to the first place, then you are out.

Yeah Rounders, yeah I remember that.

Yeah that game I played that. XXXX you know games.

With the other children?

No, three days we have got games.

Mm.

Two days we have got needle work. Girls play needlework, boys play games.

What was your house like, your family house?

My family house was fine.

Yeah? Was it big, was it…did you have upstairs downstairs…garden?

No, no, no, no we have a house with no garden. There was XXXX, there is two houses then gap, called ‘Sarkati’.

Sarkarti.

Sakartiti we called it like this.

Yeah.

XXXX like that.

And what was Tororo like, the city?

Ya.

Was it always busy, was it mixed?

Busy, on Saturday Sunday you know, on Sunday, we are free so we go to the airport by walking.

Really?

Walk two, three miles. [LAUGHS].

For fun?

For fun to see the planes. [LAUGHS].

Was that you and your brothers and sisters, or your friends?

No, no, no, no my friends. [LAUGHS].

Do your friends, did your parents know?

Yeah.

They know.

They know, they very XXXX. [LAUGHS]. Because, then we are not using phone.

Yeah.

We have got no, allowed to use phone so from the school we make the plan where do we go, on Sunday. All girls come one place, and do our journey at the time we have got no bags like this. [POINTS TO A HANDBAG]. You know! We have got bag like this [GESTURES WITH HAND]. We have got school bag not like this XXXX. You know we have got XXXX, just like carrier but cotton bag.

Yeah.

We take food, we got no sandwiches at that time.

What kind of things did you pack? What food?

Er, plantain or something like XXXX, something with XXXX. At that time no plastic bottle also.

So you didn’t drink water with you, you didn’t carry it with you, you just…use to go and come back? What about, what kind of food did your mum cook at home?

Asian food, Indian Asian food.

And in, and in school the same? Or you go home for lunch?

No we take er, XXXX and bread, or there is Sakoni market. Our parents gave us ten pence, twenty pence, we buy sweetcorn called Kasori.

Kasori?

Ya.

Its sweetcorn?

Ya. Boiled one.

And you can buy that from the market?

Ya.

How much did it cost can you remember?

Ten pence, five pence. This much [HAND GESTURE].

[LAUGHS]. So you used your pocket money to buy food?

Every day we get ten pence, twenty pence, from our parents.

Yeah.

To go and buy this thing.

What about Saturdays?

Saturday we have got half day school.

OK.

And then we go home, then we have to go to temple in the afternoon.

Yeah.

We go to temple.

With your family or with the school?

No with our family. Sometimes on Sunday, er from our school take us to the church. And we go to the church also, some days because it was British government school so we have to go there. and sometimes, on commonwealth day we go to the…commonwealth ground for the parade. There is, every school has to go there, for the parade.

All the schools in Uganda?

No, no, no.

In Tororo?

All the school, Asian school, black people school, all come there. The school teacher take us. From the school we have to go to the XXXX. There is no bus, there. We have to go walking three four miles. And there we go, then also we do marching and sweating.

Is it, what was, was it hot aswell?

It’s hot country. No, it’s mixed rain and hot. We never use umbrella.

[LAUGHS].

Never wear coat.

Never? So on commonwealth day you’d go to the city, and there would be a parade?

Not city we are living in city

Yeah.

But it was…er, at near the police station.

Mm.

And there is big ground, too much big. Nearly twenty, thirty schools come for the parade. We have got parade there. All the police also XXXX, everywhere.

And that would be the whole day, you’d spend there?

Ya. They give us banana, orange, XXXX, there was no bread.

So they gave you some fruit and then, then you’d walk back home, everybody?

Ya. Go to school, then we have to go there. We have got no right to go to cinema, That days. Our, from our school teacher take us to see the cartoon picture, and Asian movies. Not, mm… just like now everybody watch on TV. Our teacher take us which is nice picture XXXX, he take us. We have got no right to see the picture.

Do you remember the first time you went to the cinema?

Ya, when I was small I went to see cartoon picture.

Yeah.

Mickey Mouse picture.

Mickey Mouse. [LAUGHS].

We know Mickey Mouse [LAUGHS].

With the school?

Ya. You have to go by school from school. Our parents pay one shilling for the ticket.

Yeah.

And we go there. You know, our school was very disciplined.

And then, when you went to secondary school, was it the same place?

Ya. Ya.

So at what age did you stay there until? So from…

Two years, no one er…five, up to five years we are primary. Then junior school seven or eight. Ya. Six year is primary. Seven or eight is junior school. Then senior school. Senior school was little bit, far. Ya.

Did you walk there? Everyday aswell, to senior school?

No. I learn up to eight, junior school then I went back home.

So how old were you when you went back to India?

Nearly, I was nearly thirt… fourteen years, again back home.

What was it like the first time you went to India?

Ooh. I enjoy much because we are in steamer for seven days. [LAUGHS]. It’s a big, big XXXX.

Why did your parents send you to India?

Ya.

Did you want to go, or did you want to stay in Uganda?

No because er, there was er, you know the British rule was going on and the African rule was going to come.

Mm.

So…my parents at that time you know, I tell you that there's too much discipline, restrictions on girls.

Mm.

My parents don’t like to see, my girls sit beside the African boy.

Mm.

After that, XXXX independence, all the school become same. They all get, they all get admission in our Asian school, so they can sit with us.

So black Africans?

Ya. They can sit with us nobody can tell anything. So my daddy don’t like this.

Yeah.

So he sees…

Was he worried, a little bit?

So he send me, oh many people, many girls and boys went to India, for the further study.

So you went and your sister?

My two brother, my small two brother, went there.

The three of you?

Ya. Then afterwards my mum and my sister come. Two sister come.

Can you remember when your parents told you, you were gonna go to India?

Ya. I was happy.

You was happy?

Because I want to, steamer!

[LAUGHS]. You’ve never been on a steamer before?

When I was, one year old I went there. Because at that time there was no plane.

Yeah.

Nobody was going on plane. Going on steamer it takes seven, eight days journey. In water, you can’t see anything except water and XXXX.

Can you remember the journey, on the steamer?

Ya, I tell my son…

What did you do? For seven days on a boat?

They had big, big galleries just like galleries.

Yeah.

Everybody sit, and enjoy eating. XXXX, my mum take too much food with her, eat there, enjoy. We haven’t take bath for seven days. [LAUGHS].

[LAUGHS].

If you do like this [PRETENDS TO LICK FINGER AND RUB AGAINST BACK OF HER HAND].

[LAUGHS].

XXX, salty salty! [LAUGHS].

[LAUGHS].Yeah that’s a long time isn’t it. So when you first got to India where did you go? Did you have family there?

Yeah my aunty my daddy’s sister was there.

Whereabouts in India?

She was in India, Gujarat.

Gujarat.

I stayed there, my daddy’s, my father’s sister tell that XXXX, send girls, kids to me I will look after them. We studied there for one year, then my mummy, my mother and my two sister come. Then I went there.

What was it like, when you first when to India, you said you were happy to be on the steamer, but was it different? Where you shocked?

Ya. It was too different. Everywhere we use to go XXXX, no country, there you see the XXXX poo.

[LAUGHS]. Did you miss home, did you miss Uganda?

Ya.

What did you miss?

Young life you know? We play, on Satur…on Sunday, we, from nine o’clock we go sometimes we go to the, near the police station. You know there are too much, too many mango trees.

In India?

No, no, no in Africa. [LAUGHS].

In Uganda, yeah.

We climb there and pick mangoes. [LAUGHS].

Did you climb up the tree?

Ya.

Really?

We take salt and chilli, you know. We bring small bottle from the hospital and wash it and put, dry it, put chilli or er… ‘jeri’ grind ‘jera’ and salt.

‘Jera’ what's that?

It’s one spice, our Indian.

OK.

And we put, when we take the mango, god knows we wash and XXXX. But we grow up.

Yeah.

That bite, deep in the, that em, spicy salt and chilli then we eat. [LAUGHS].

[LAUGHS].

You know on that day we have got no forks, to eat fruits.

Yeah.

We are small, my, some of my friend have got big XXXX, their parents working in XXXX factory. They have got big gardens. They grow, papayas. We pick the papayas, and peel it and make pieces. At that time we have got no fork. You know faggia?

Yeah.

You just used your hands?

No, no faggia you know faggia?

No.

It swipe the floor.

Oh ok is it made from em...

Bamboo.

Bamboo and you clean like this? Gesture

Ya.

Yeah.

That one stick. And wash it.

So you used the bamboo as, as a fork?[LAUGHS].

Ya. [LAUGHS]. See how enjoy we have.

So, you were growing up in India did you make, what was the school like there? Was it very different from the one in Ugandan?

Ya. We have, there we have to learn every subject in Gujarati.

And they speak only Gujarati in the school or they speak English?

Gujarati.

How did you find that?

It was difficult but I manage.

Yeah, did you speak Gujarati at home, with your family, when you was in Uganda?

Ya.

So you had some, you speak Gujarati already, but in India I guess it’s a little bit…

Hard.

…harder. Yeah. Did you enjoy any subjects?

Ya.

In India?

I passed em…you know here we call GCSE? There we call Metric. In eleventh. We have to take eight subject. If you pass in seven then you pass. If you fail in one, then XXXX. There is no matter. But I was XXXX there, I take only seven. You know if you take seven subject, then your percentage goes up. If you take eight subject, eight, your percentage goes down, right?

Yeah.

Can you understand me?

Yeah.

I take seven subjects because I don’t know Sanskrit. I know little bit Hindi and Gujarati, but I know English. I know history. But I don’t know much history of India but I know geography world geography. And English, maths I know. Now also I know maths, algebra, geometry.

You still remember all of it, yeah?

Now also I know.

That’s good.

And er, I take higher maths not arithmetic, I take math, not algebra and geometry, I take that one.

You take the higher, the harder ones, the harder maths? So did you pass all of the seven?

Ya. I was the first girl, or, in the, our school in India. The first XXXX who passed seven subjects.

Wow, the first one?

Now, now there is my name there.

Really?

Ya, because I was the first girl. And first boy, or anybody never take seven subjects in science subject, you know they are called science subject, XXXX.

Yeah.

XXXX, and afterwards my brother passed that seven subject. My small brother he passed that.

So you’re name is written on the, in the school?

If you go and ask, Hansa Patel, XXXX, in nowadays it’s difficult because it’s long time. But they know me. Now they changed the building also.

Yeah.

Everything, but in the record my name is there cos this is the first girl. And first in the school, to pass seven subject.

Do you remember when they told you, the teacher?

Ya.

…in the class, did he make an announcement, was it in assembly?

After that, when I go to take my certificate, after that day we have got no contact with the school. We have to leave the school. We have to go to college, but that day our parents says ‘oh, girls are not allowed to work so she has to make food at home, so she, now she can’t go further for the study’. At that time was that. Nowadays everybody go to college, then we have to stop, I have to stop. My studies stopped there.

Did you want to carry on?

Ya. But my parents, now also you know, I never watch em, that Hindi or Gujarati on my TV. I have got English channel only, and I watch them.

You prefer to watch English channel?

Ya, I never take my XXXX Hindi channel in my house. I watch English Channel. I watch three, BBC One, BBC Two, BBC Four news, every day at night. I watch English Watch Dog, like that.

Watch Dog yeah.

Like that I watch.

So when the teacher told you that, how did you find out that you were the first girl?

XXXX first girl.

How did you find out?

I was only girl.

Oh then.

Who takes the seven.

Oh ok.

And everybody was worried about me. If you, I fail one subject, then…

That’s it?

Gone. Everybody was worried, up to, you know we had to fill the form and we have to pay the fee. Everybody was taking that one option, then I said no. I don’t want to go, for one option, and I don’t want to XXXX more subject. If I will, learn eight subject, then I have, I can’t concentrate on XXXX subject.

Mm.

And I was clever in Africa also, when I was in junior too. I get, nobody knows that I’m going to pass. You know.

Why?

When the result come, in the morning my father went to the temple. We always go to temple. Everybody was telling my father, Hansa get this much, er…erm, marks. And er, no they can, in the paper, and we have to select some er, the result come in the newspaper but nobody in my house read the newspaper. When my daddy father went to temple, in the morning he know he can’t know that today is result my girl, XXXX, nice grade. And she can get nice school. But I was going to India!

[LAUGHS]. It’s too late.

My father did not take any interest to go, to send me, er my school you know.

So you could have gone to a nicer school in, in Tororo?

Ya I can get nice school in Mbale.

Mm.

Boarding school, but my father, was not interested in…

Yeah.

…going, sending me in the, the school.

This is because, Uganda became em, independent?

He wants to send me in India. I have lost my two, you know, my chance for further study.

Mm.

Oh now I regret you know, now I am regretting. I was in India, I marry. Then I was doing tutor work. I was teaching small five years, em, children…maths and English. Five years, six years.

How old were you then? When you finished school, or college?

No when I married, after marriage I was doing tutor work.

OK. And when did you get married? How old were you when you got married?

Nearly, I was twenty years. I get married then afterwards, after five six years, my XXXX, two girls and one boy. Then I started doing teacher job, oh tutor job. Because in tutor we get much money.

Mm.

In school we, you get only fixed money.

Yeah.

If you do tutor job, for once, India one hundred rupees is too much, at that time. For one boy, you get one person, you get hundred hundred twenty five rupees. If you, em…er, teach ten boys, is one thousand, eh, per month. And then school salary was only five hundred, six hundred.

Rupees a month if you’re a teacher?

Ya.

But if you’re a tutor you get more the double?

Ya. My friend husband was there, in the school XXXX, and he told me that if you go to school, then you will have to work up to six, seven, eight hours. But if you do tutor job, then it will be your choice.

Yeah. So did you, you, this is after you had your children?

Ya.

So they were in school, already, or they were young?

They were going to school, and I teach, I was doing teacher, my…my son is here with me. He was erm, teacher in India. Science teacher, maths and, he was going to take exam also, going to check er, science er…GCS paper, also. But he couldn’t find here job, with teacher. He’s working in Asda. But he was doing tutor job. But er…he, he had got er, one er…you know, learning hall.

Learning hall?

Ya. Forest…

In Forest Gate?

Ya he was doing tutor job there. Saturday class.

Like his mum, tutor, tutoring?

Ya. He was, now also, but know you know, that centre is closed. That one lady was there with her. He got nice job you know, their behaviour, XXXX, she came like girl like you.

Mm.

With my son. She got er, nice job. She left. Then the centre closed. My son was become alone. He can’t manage all the things, with the phone and teaching. He couldn’t get any other partner. So they have to close.

OK.

And he was teaching up to GCSE, now he has got two teacher, two kids, GCSE girls.

OK.

Teaching Maths and Science and English.

So, whilst you were living in, in India, your dad, was he still in Uganda and you’re brothers? Did everybody come to India?

Everyone gone India. Uganda become empty.

Is this before Idi Amin? Before nineteen seventy two?

Ya.

So you left before then? Did you hear, when you heard that er…Idi Amin said all the Ugandan Asians have to go?

Ya.

Can you remember when you found out?

Yeah, they tell us, that’s why he was telling, if I win I will kick every Asian and every British citizen.

He said that before he became, em, in power?

Ya. And everybody knows that he is going to come in power so, British people also tell that er, who wants to come er, in Britain…who wants to go America. So we went back home.

You said you’d go to India instead.

Ya.

Did you have er, what kind of passport did you have?

British.

British passport.

I was born in British colony. [LAUGHS].

So, in…in, when they made the announcement you was already in India. You already moved.

Ya.

When you heard about it what did you think? You weren’t shocked because you already knew?

Ya.

Did you have a lot of friends, and maybe other family members that were still in Uganda, that wanted to stay?

Ya my sister and big brother were in Uganda, when Idi Amin come in power they come here.

To UK, or to India?

No.

They came to UK?

Ya. Brother and sister come to UK. My sister is in Preston, my brother is in Coventry.

Coventry. So what happened to your dad’s er…soap factory, did he sell it or…

Ya he selling, and more money.

Yeah. Can you remember what your brother and sister were saying about Uganda, during that time? Was it dangerous for them?

Ya.

Were you worried?

At that time we have got no worry.

Yeah.

[LAUGHS].

[LAUGHS].

Its finished?

Yeah almost, just wanted to talk about when you left India, how old were you when you came here?

Hmm?

When you came to UK, when did you come to…

Nineteen….ninety five.

Ninety five? What made you decide to leave India to come here?

I come here, because they give right here. They allow us, one got British citizen and they can go there.

So you came with your children and husband?

No only those who get the British citizen, passport holder only they can get out.

So who did you come, er, to UK with, did you come alone?

Hm.

Did you come here by yourself or you came with your husband, or your children?

Myself.

So you’re children grew up in India?

[NODS HEAD]

And what was it like when you first came to…where did you come first, London?

Forest Gate.

Forest Gate, what was it like? You said ninety, ninety, ninety five? What was it like then?

It was funny XXXX, that we have to go in cold, walk work.

Yeah it was cold?

Did you start working, or you stayed at home, when you was here?

After one month when I get insurance number I start working.

Where did you work?

In Udal metal.

What's that?

Udal metal.

Udal metal? Oh ok needle-making?

Huh?

Did you say needle making? Metal?

There was big factory. Three four departments. They were making metal things. And electrical things, I was XXXXX.

OK. Where was that factory?

Leyton.

In Leyton. Do you know whereabouts in Leyton? Whereabouts in Leyton was it?

You take fifty eight bus?

Mm, no. Yeah sometimes, fifty eight or one five eight or three ‘o’ eight from the Forest Gate.

Yeah. Then we take em…take fifty five, forty three something bus go there, and walk twenty minutes.

So it’s after Leyton station?

Ya, go further Mark House, near the Mark’s House.

Near Mark’s House.

When we take another bus, two-three bus and walk twenty minutes.

Did you work there five days a week, every day?

Five days, sometimes seven, six days, Saturday overtime.

Well, do you remember how much you got paid? Was it OK, was it a lot of money?

At that time was three fifty.

A month?

No.

A week?

One hour.

Oh ok. Three pound fifty an hour. How did you find the job?

My friend take me.

Yeah. Did you enjoy it?

Ya. Its hard job but enjoy it.

What did you like the most?

We have got drilling work, putting the screw and tick off. We are making you know, XXXX job. Everything.

[LADY INTERRUPTS AND SITS DOWN IN THE BACK OF THE COMMON ROOM].

Excuse me, sorry is it ok if I sit here and have my lunch?

Yeah, yeah that’s fine yeah.

Em, and was that your family and then you changed jobs at any point? How long did you stay there?

I got there, in ninety six.

Mm.

Up to I retire, I was working. When I had a knee problem, they give me redundancy.

What was the name of the factory?

Udal metal. Its famous, factory in this area.

So you stayed there for all that time and then you retired, at the end?

[NODS].

And when did your children come over, you said your son is here?

Ninety nine he come here.

And your other children are in India?

[NODS].

And your husband?

India. He’s in India.

Do you ever want to go back to Uganda? Did you ever go back?

[SHAKES HEAD].

Would you go back now, or…?

No there is nobody there. If anybody is there, relative, every day we seen the news, problem is problem.

It’s not, it’s not the same. Even if you’re to go back to your…old…area…Tororo. It’s probably completely different.

Ya. They have broken everything. Every houses.

Who?

They live there…

The Africans?

The live there, the neighbour maintain it, so is gone.

Can you remember what it was like with the Africans, how the African, Ugandans and the Asians, did they get along? When you was there?

They live in mud huts.

Africans?

Ya. I know they living in mud huts.

In the, outside the city, or in the city.

Ya. There are African town is XXXX, they live separate, our Asian town is separate.

So everybody lives separate?

They have got separate place to live.

What was the African part like? Did you ever go past it?

We never go their side.

Yeah, but it’s just mud, mud house?

[NODS]. Yes.

What about the European side? This is, the British….

Ya.

People, what were their houses like?

Just like here.

Yeah?

Ah, the have got particular soap, they buy fruit and everything from one, two, three, four soaps, particular soaps they buy from there.

Mm. And where would the Asians shop…people, would you shop in…in the market or…were there other shops you went to maybe in the city or…

No. Every soap is in the city.

Yeah.

Just like you know Green Street.

Mm. Did you have like green street in er, Tororo. All Asian shops?

Ya.

What kind of businesses did they have mostly, like soap factories, clothing…?

Clothing, food, everything.

Did you have like Indian food there food aswell, did they bring it over, did they sell Indian food some of the shops?

No in the…nobody buys readymade food.

Of course, yeah.

But all the, all the spices…

Ya.

All Indian spices, they bring them over from India?

Mm.

and you can buy them easily from Uganda? So when you when to India, it was not really too much of a change?

[SHAKES HEAD].

No? What was the thing you most liked about England?

[SHORT PAUSE]

Did you, did you ever want to go back to India when you came here, or you was happy to be here?

I’m happy to be here.

Did you find the weather was too cold, in the beginning?

Ya first, but now I’m use to.

You’re use to it?

[LAUGHS] Ya.

So you feel more at home here, or you feel at home in India, or…

Oh here.

Yeah? East London?

Would you, how would you think, now that it’s been forty years, since Idi Amin er… took all the Asians out how do you think they should remember Ugandan Asians? Because it’s been a long time. Do you think it’s something to celebrate; do you think they should talk more about the story?

No, no, no, you know. In Leicester or somewhere.

Mm.

They put the Idi Amin photo just like god.

Yeah.

Then they, he kick, the person, and now they become billionaire here.

Mm.

Do you know any stories of people? Do you know anybody?

No.

There’s some people I've heard of, they came to the UK with…no much money and then you know, after working working working constantly, they became very rich like…

Ya.

…have you heard of the Nagrecha brothers?

Ya. I tell him, I’m telling you that they are praying like god.

Mm.

When he kick us, when we come in this country, first everybody struggle, but then you know, the, every family member is working in this country. Wife, husband, kids, everybody go to work and now they become billionaire.

Yeah.

Why is that, do you think it’s because…

Because the people, in…in… Africa only men was walking just like over India. Nowadays all the ladies are all going to work. But the first man is working, and Uganda also man is working, the wife and kids are not working.

So you wouldn’t work if you was in Uganda.

Ya.

OK, thank you very much Hansa.

The End

Transcript not to be used without copyright

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Hansa Patel

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: 14/02/2013

Language: English

Venue: Upton Park, London

Name of interviewer: Lwam Tesfay

Length of interview: 43:24

Transcribed by: Lwam Tesfay

Archive Ref: 2013_esch_UgAs_10

2013_esch_UgAs_11

2013_esch_UgAs_11

INTERVIEWER: Ok can I ask for your full name please?

AJIET: My name is Ajiet Singh Sondh

And can I ask you to spell that, for me please?

Sorry?

Can I ask you to spell that for me please?

Spell it?

Yep

A-J-I-E-T S-I-N-G-H S-O-N-D-H

That’s perfect and we are good to go, that’s great. Ok then. Um, wha-we usually start off is a XXXX of personal details so can I ask your date of birth as well please Mr XXXX?

020246 (February 2, 1946)

46? Perfect. Ok, um, so you mentioned earlier you were um, born in Uganda. Is that correct?

Yep

And um, can you tell me the actual place of your birth, the town that you were born in?

Jinja

It was in Jinja. And can you perhaps tell me a little bit about Jimja, describe it as a community, as a town and perhaps some of your fond memories when you were growing up there?

Jinja was a very closely-knit community, as a whole. Irrespective of colour, creed or religion. Being a small and a business place...all-most of the tycoons of Uganda were doing business from that little town. Um... And also being the first place to provide hydro-electric dam to cater for the needs of electricity for Uganda and also some other parts of East Africa. Um… Agriculturally, Uganda was the top most in East Africa... Coffee, cotton, sugar, sugar cane industry was the top of the list. And then later on Mr Gill... added a plywood factory which was the first I think in most of the African countries-

Wow.

And obviously these tycoons started building their business round what they already had . So it was large, it was second to none as was the business of money was concerned.

So I mean, a quite prosperous community-

Very, very prosperous.

And perhaps can you describe um, sort of the layout of the town and perhaps where you lived? What was your house like? Geographically, where were you living? Were you in the centre or[...]

We lived in a joined house about eight, nine bedrooms. Or-could be more. Um, three brothers, my father’s young-younger brother and his elder brother. [...] Being in the company called XXX Singh and Brothers, they lived together. And the youngest-most brother Mr XXX Singh who had his own separate business after splitting from the brothers, was living in Nile Garden. He had his own house and the other two elder brothers , one of them used to serve for the family companies and the eldest-most was in the army and he never bothered to work for anyone of when he wished like he used to work for his brothers.

So he was the black sheep of the family-

Very, very shrewd-

Yep

Very shrewd, honestly. [...] They lined up a job for him, my father used to tell us, that he said um, ‘Big brother, we have lined up a job’ when they were not into their own business, when they were just working in the mines of somewhere, um, They said ‘we lined up a job for you, could you go and see the foreman, chippy foreman or carpenter foreman there?’ And he used to come up with swearwords to say ‘whom so ever needs me can bloody well come to my place and take me. He was that military type-

Yeah. A man of his upbringing wasn’t he?

Oh yes, that’s right.

And in terms of um, your school days, um,what school did you go to?

Our school, I went to Jinja Primary School. Then from there to Jinja Secondary School. There was only two schools in the town. The government schools. And then later on, of our own community, Sikh Community, built a XXX school , which was taking XXX care of the religious studies and also at the same time, the normal studies what the government allowed for. And it was subsidised later on, was subsidised by the government also.

XXXX for the curriculum-

That’s right.

And um, obviously um, the state school, was that for both Black Africans as well as the Ugandan Asians?

Um... At first, the government schools were only Asians... Africans were admitted very late after Independence and al-also they used to shout to come into the cities or towns from remotes. So there was a breakthrough after the Independence, slowly and slowly. Um… Obviously now its all, all blacks now-

Yep, not many Ugandan Asians left-

Yes.

Um, and, so you had with Independence became a certain perhaps unification-

Yep

Absorption.

When I was there in school, we had... hardly half a dozen students. Hardly half a dozen students. And the black locals-

So not many. So how perhaps did the two communities interact in Jinja, apart from school, where yeah what kind of places would you meet Black Africans?

Well the most, mostly Black Africans used to work as house servants, garden boys, gardeners um… on the build-building industry, roads weepers, and to do the labour work-majority. And very few of them, then were in high posts, very, very few were working in offices... Um… Later on, the trends started changing though everywhere, Africans were... coming forward to take the major role.

And I mean did you ever sense any um, perhaps tension when you were younger between the two communities and when I say the two, obviously the African and the Asians groups.

I personally felt the tension when the army was manoeuvring the streets in Kampula. I was going one-one evening after work in a company bus... we happened to come through some sanitary post and... we were stopped and the gun was pointed at me for not listening. So that put fear into me. This is what’s happening now. So it will be obviously unsafe to stay here.

Uh-hmm. But I mean so this was obviously after ’71-’72-

This was-this is ‘72

’72. So perhaps going back even long-before that did you-

Not-not...

When you were growing up did you ever sense any tension?

Not before the Black Africans were adjust... They were in majority there but the rule was in minority and there-there status was minority-in minority. So they were considered as a very lowly class.

Uh-hmm. And they kind of accepted it perhaps?

Well that-that was a part and parcel of it because majority of them were uneducated and socially they could not mingle with people... that is at common level, like most other nations would have done it but talking about the high society, that was a different ball game-game.

XXXX They kind of yeah they’d brought been brought up in that environment-

Yep

And they got used to it.

That’s it. Their environment was there, the hawkers selling fruits, veg, early mornings where ever they made money about two shillings or three shillings. Never more than enough for them. Because-mind you, don’t get me wrong two or three shillings be-the value of currency then was equivalent to the British pound... So it was alot of money-

XXXX Perhaps. They could have accessed in other ways.

Yep

Um, do you um…Let’s talk-so we’ve talked about sort of the intimate inter community relations, we’ve talked about the role of the Black African. Can we describe perhaps the Asian community’s role in society. What were –I mean it seems the merchant class was very much predominant.

There-there was not much difference between Asian communities. I mean, everyone mingled together, everyone mixed together, talked to each other. I mean, there was hardly any differences that ‘he’s a Muslim’ or ‘he’s a Sikh’ or ‘he’s a Gujarati’ or this and that. It only differentiated people where they belong to this religion or that religion through their worships. And also, their businesses and so on and nothing in particular like where as a human being one would say ‘oh he’s a Muslim, I don’t want to help him.’ Or ‘ He’s-he’s so and so I don’t wanna do this for him now’. Everyone was in harmony, peace and love.

So you’d say everyone some themselves as being Asian first-Ugandan Asian first and then religious differences XXXX

Yep that’s it Yeah that was it, there you go.

And you said, um, there’d be certain community events where the whole of the Asian community come out and celebrate. Do you wanna perhaps explain it. You mentioned Diwali earlier?

Diwali, yes. Diwali was the main... main, main festival which almost every Asian community used to take part in...

And what sort of events did you celebrate. I mean was it-well perhaps could you describe-describe the night of Diwali and the streets of Jinja in the sixties and-

Well Diwali, the streets I mean we, um- all the Asian communities I mean especially the Hindus used to distribute sweets to the neighbours, to friends, to their relations and that was the tradition. In our town, Jinja there was no differences between whether he’s a black man there or next door or whether its a Muslim next door. No, festival was celebrated in this XXXX manner, what it used to be. So celebration means celebration-be happy and the happiness was shared amongst everyone.

Uh-hmm and lets go back to the Asian community. You’ve described in detail before we started the interview, um, some of, um, the, um, events that you took part in at school. It seemed to me quite an important part of an, um, Ugandan Secondary School, amongst the Asian community was sports. So can you perhaps describe that?

As far as games and sports are concerned, that was sort of a natural... gift to me. The more my Father didn’t want me to play, the more I sneaked out and took part in different games and sports. I-I was very good, very agile, very fast in running. Out-witting people , side stepping, whatever. Or even my brain tried to out win-out wit people. So this sort of-this nature of mine took me through to games and sports and I became one of the leading hockey players, football player, athlete and cyclist, boxing and rugby player.

So a very, very much an all around sportsman weren’t you?

Yeah. Well we should say-we could term it as all part of the best all rounder’s.

Uh-hmm. And let’s focus on the rugby because you told me before we started recording, um, a bit of an anecdote in regards to a certain Mr Idi Amin. Um, do you wanna tell me about it?

Idi-Idi Amin was the first black man who played rugby in Jinja or Uganda or East Africa. He was a member of Nile Rugby Club, Jinja... He was the first man to represent the Jinja fifteen, a black man representing Jinja fifteen of Nile Rugby Club in Kenya, playing against one of the Nukuoro clubs where the farmers assertation was very, very strong, being the white farmers only. And there were alot of restrictions in those days that no blacks should enter their clubs. So Idi Amin was the first one ever to play there.

And what were your-you obviously met Idi, um, a number of times.

Well I knew Idi Amin from games and sports. I used to represent my secondary school for athletics and he used to turn out for Kings Africans Rifles, as a sprinter and sometimes as a XXXX race member.

And did you compete against Idi?

He-Later on people said ‘oh he talks too much, he-he wants to advise anyone. I personally think that was a part and parcel of his nature. He used to advise me also because I was a very keen cyclist. We used to have two mile grass tracks cycling XXXX end of the meeting. And I used to take part in that and he always used to ask me not ever to let any black African to touch my bike because they can do Voodoo-the black magic.

Incredible.

Yeah.

Um, and it’s not the only time you met uh, Mr Amin as well-

No-no I-I met him many, many times, many times I met… Idi-

And can you perhaps describe him as a character, um, not the Idi Amin that I know obviously through the expulsion.

Idi Amin… to sum him up like people say ‘oh he was in love with Madhvani’s wife or this and that XXXX Madhvani’s wife. Oh I don’t know much about that but as I know Idi Amin-yes he was a womaniser… because… once I ran out of diesel and I was walking in the blazing sun towards Jinja town… uh, coming from Bugembe where our national athletic stadium used to be. I was in the middle of Bugembe and Jinga railway station when he was coming from the barracks which was not far from the service station. Er, in his Zephyr Zodiac and he sighted me with the XXXX and he stopped and he said XXXX [Swahili] and I’d replied in Swahili XXXX [Swahili] that means ‘I’ve run out of diesel in my truck’ Um, so he said ‘oh hang on, jump in the car, I’ll take you XXXX [Swahili] ‘I’ll take you to get some diesel later’. And he said to me ‘I’m just (in Swahili) I’m going to see a friend of mine just here’. When these people used to say ‘just here’ it may be miles in the bush. So we went and stopped by a mud hut. He said ‘you wait in the car XXXX, uh, I’m going to see a friend of mine. And this is… in the afternoon, blazing sun. He’s gone in fully, fully in his army uniform and he’s seen a woman-woman friend and he spent more than an hour there and I was choking in the heat, in his car and I went and knocked on the door he-he replied ‘Can’t you wait XXXX, you’re disturbing me, I’ll be out soon’. This is-this is Idi Amin-it’s no bullshitting, I’m telling you the truth because I was waiting there like a XXXX for him.

And he eventually came out-

Yep he came out later.

Possibly with a smile on his face.

A big smile on his face.

And um, will-we’re on the topic anyway so I’d perhaps like you before we go back to um, your upbringing in Uganda. Can you tell me about the last meeting you had with um, Mr Amin, um, because that was very under different circumstances. It was back to the rugby club wasn’t it?

Yeah. The last time I saw Idi Amin, now he was the President of Uganda… He was the chief guest… for a rugby game. Invited being the ex-rugby player… and now the President of Uganda. He-he was asked to preside over this tournament this-this game. A team from Ireland-a Cork constitution was touring Uganda then… I happened to be standing in the clubhouse next to him he-he didn’t even say hello to me, nothing. So much difference in him. And all the time he was outside witnessing the game and I was not far from his side, he didn’t even smile at me. That much difference or that much his status changed him…

I see you’ve described two very different Idi Amins there. I mean-

Yes… After-after becoming President I think he was entirely a different man, a different man. Not the same old Idi Amin.

Uh-hmm. Power corrupts-

Do you want me to say about Gaddafi?

Yes, I mean XXXX

I think all the changes brought in to Idi Amin, as far as I know was Libya’s President Gaddafi. He’s intervening the Ugandan, him being a Muslim and Idi Amin being a Muslim and Israelis were training the Air force-Ugandan Air force and the Ugandan Army. That… that sort of carry-on Gaddafi could not bear so he has to intervene and he started poisoning his ears. Um, after that, Israelis were given thirty days notice to leave the country and then obviously the Asians followed after a few months, were given ninety days notice to leave the country.

So you think Gaddafi made-

So I think-I personally feel Gaddafi was a main influence for all this exodus of… Jews and Asians from Uganda.

That’s interesting ‘cause as I said off the recording device, that is a very new perspective to me from what I’ve interviewed. Many-I don’t think anybody will ever really get to know exactly why Idi Amin made that declaration but there’s-there’s many I think reasons behind it and that’s certainly one of them. Um, let’s go back to yourself then really, uh you mentioned-you gave me an anecdote earlier about your Dad. You said your Dad was a very well respected man in Jinja, er, because of some of the things he did with the local communities etcetera-

Yeah

Do you want to describe your Dad and per-your Mum as well, your parents. Er, when did they arrive in Uganda?

Wow, um, that’s… very hard to say when they arrived. We never even bothered-nobody ever bothered-they were sort of the pioneers. They were in Kenya before coming to Uganda… um-

And did they come over under the British colonial power?

Yeah, yeah that’s it, yeah.

Yeah

It was obviously it was then, they started immigrating from India to Africa, um, as far as I know, my Father used to talk about him travelling from Kenya to play volleyball in Uganda so that’s-that’s how I could say they were in Kenya first and then they immigrated to Uganda and settled in Uganda.

Yeah, it was very different back then as well, isn’t it. There was no real borders as such-

No

Kenya was part of Uganda and Uganda was part of Kenya-

No-no nothing then, I mean it was a British colony, Kenya was a colony, Uganda was protected-a protected rite so it was under British- I doubt that there was any borders or something of that sort in those days.

Uh-hmm and you said, let’s go back to your Dad, you said your Dad was quite a prominent member of the community. Can you tell me how that came about?

Yeah my Father was a-a one of the leading figures… from the community because for the locals and for the whites-he knew them although he could not even speak a word of English. He- ‘Yes XXXX no XXXXX’. These are two common words possibly most of them used to grasp. That mean, you know what it means. ‘Yes XXXX’ and ‘No XXXX’ XXXX used to be the boss man so every white man in a higher position was a XXXX to them. Right, so this is how their transactions used to start. ‘Yes XXXX, no XXXX XXXX, XXXX, XXXX. This means ‘Yes, yes no XXXX’ This is it. As far as his personal approach was concerned, he was a well known figure, within the white community and the black chiefs because they used to build local governments, um, housing estates and the XXXX what used to be the local XXXX. And most of other families had those contracts. Because of just how deep they knew the locals and-and the British side of the government. So-so my Father was a very, very dominant person in these sort of things. And he played his major role and locals used to call him ‘XXXX Simba’ Simba means Lion. And his whole labour force used to be scared of him as soon as they would hear his car approaching the site, wherever he used to go and visit, they would run to their place of work and believe you me, its not only them-even we used to hide. If we had to go out somewhere without him noticing, we used to sneak out. We wouldn’t dare tell him where we are going.

So he sounds like a very fair man however also a very tough man-

He was very fair. A good hearted, good natured person but very shrewd and abrupt. Very shrewd.

I suppose you have to be sometimes.

Oh he was a big man, he was a big man, yeah.

Uh-hmm and, um, yourself, um, you obviously-you were brought up in Jinja. Can you tell me perhaps about did you go-you went to secondary school a great-did you go to university? Did you-what’s your sort of career path?

Um, no, no. I didn’t go to universities there, nothing. I mean… I got married… um, then I-I started working… I started working… at Mr Gil’s plywood factory or his whole set-up before plywood factory, um, it was a timber impregnating plant, building construction site section and also his mechanical section looking after auto-auto mobiles because he had a fleet of trucks and cars to cater for his needs for transportation of timber, XXXX and a lot of other bits and pieces and he was the-one tycoon of our community who owned the Mercedes Benz and Renault agencies. He had a theatre, a cinema he-he had loads of buildings and he had buildings for his staff-housing estates for his staff so far so, um, people used to call them as ‘Gil Colony’, um, he was a tycoon in a real sense-

And did he employ, um, both Asians and Africans or?-

Yep, majority Asians were the higher posts and the local Africans, if they were not qualified enough or- I mean early days obviously most-majority were labourers nothing else. Some of them were good carpenters, I mean he didn’t need no carpenters in the factory so the carpenters, the local black carpenters used to work on the building-building sites. Other than that, they were very, very few trades men as carpenters. But other than that, most majority of them were the labourers.

Yep. So it goes back to what you said previously the Africans were very much at the lowest level of society.

Yeah, very much-that’s right.

And where would you fit if we can put a diagram of society. You have Africans at the bottom obviously where would you fit sort of you and your family. ‘Cause obviously you’d have the white colonial power, er, in pre-independence at the top, where would the Asian community fit?

Well comp-comparing ourselves to the white community then-there was no question the rising of that because the whites set their own trend wherever they went, whites only area, whites only clubs… so for so in-on a lot of Uganda XXXX mines, a copper mine was another part turned one of-by one of the ministers as little South Africa on the land of Uganda. There was so much segregation-these Welsh miners were showing to us the locals and Asian workers there. I happen to remember, I travelled to play Rugby against Clumbi mines club from Kampala, instead of me being catered by a white family, I was singled out as a player to go and stay with an Asian family. Although I knew this was gonna happen, I knew there was a lot of segregation in that part of the country but I didn’t mind. But I’m just viewing my points, that’s what was happening there. And most of the whites were taken in by the white families… All of the players are the guests-they all catered for that. And- But as was my own club in Kampala they were good. Well you can judge people by how they react, how they present themselves, but seeing all that they were very nice people-all the British were nice but who knows deep down, beneath their hearts what sort of nature they had. But outwardly they were all very nice and friendly. I mean, travelling wise, we used to travel together there’s no distinction that ‘oh you’re not gonna travel with us’ we used to travel together. There was another black African who was a very good rugby player, come up from university and he used to travel with us also. That’s it.

So I mean well I suppose, I’d possibly say a black African who went to university was probably quite unique compared to the rest of the black Africans. So I mean it seems to me sort of three major, um, groups in society in terms of ethnically speaking; whites, um, Asians and blacks-

Yep

And it seems it would be in that order of their positions in society. Do you think in the same way that some, um, the whites would look down on some Asians and blacks, do you think some members of the Asian community looked down on the black community as well, do you think it worked that way?

Yeah, yeah that was true, that was true. Even some Asians were looking down upon Africans. Many a time, this used to happen if-if a black man early days used to nick anything, everyone used to stone them… Even the black Africans, they were the first one to get hold of him and beat the hell out of him, that was the trend. So-

Community justice.

That’s it, yeah… I mean, being poor obviously, if one cannot afford to do anything that’s the easiest way-to nick something from somewhere, um, to cater for his needs.

Yep

That’s humanity.

Survival

Human nature.

Yep. Survival instinct-

That’s it. Survival- hook or crook.

Um, I love that phrase. Um, that-so if we, um, go back to this period of when, um, Idi Amin came into power, um, did-obviously you’d met him a number of times on the crick-on the, um, rugby field or at the track. He’d given some advice about your bike and he’d given you a lift a couple of times. Um, he came to power, what was your first reaction when he came to power. What was your thinking, this man that I know, this rugby player.

When, when he came to power, um, the way he came to power Milton Obote was the Prime Minister of the country then and they were out in Singapore for the Commonwealth heads meeting and XXXX was the President then XXXX. Um, being a Muganda, these Muganda tribes comes from Kampala side, mostly and so on. They never got on with Obote so Obote was always against XXXX like so XXXX and Idi Amin conspired while Obote was out of the country to overthrow him and that’s when the coup started in Uganda. And they took over the government and that’s how Idi Amin became head of the army. One of the brigadiers then, he was one of the brigadiers then. And then obviously later on XXXX, I don’t know what happened, whether he died or what. Idi Amin became the president.

And where were you during all this? Were you still in Jinja?

I was in Kampala then.

You were in Kampala?

I was not living far from the parliament square and Radio Uganda. All the bullets being fired, any stray bullets could have gone through my windows and hit us. And we used to lie on the floors.

And did you sense any tension towards the Asian community when he first came into power? Did you feel-were you worried about your future?

People thought it was nice.

Really?

People thought it was nice. A man whose made his way up to that position, from ordinary soldier would do justice. Obviously, the justice they’re being shown to people then tribalism comes into these people. It’s-it’s human nature and then he started being very brutal to some tribes. Started killing, this and that, giving orders being the head of the state and army. So all different names, Idi Amin dada, Marshall this and Marshall that-we only knew him by Idi Amin. That’s all, Idi was the only name he knew. Idi, Idi, Idi and all dada this and then Field Marshall. Well God knows that’s all-

He had many titles, tyrant I believe it is.

This is all his own creation possibly.

Yes, I think tyrant is a title that is attached to him most nowadays. Um, you mentioned earlier, before we started recording, um, quite an interesting story, I often ask people where they were when they found out about the, um, the ninety day declaration when it was first declared. However you-you actually may have found out about it, stumbled upon it earlier-

Oh yeah yep-yep. Yep after one… big match-rugby match… we normally used to have a lot of, erm, embassies members as members there or come for socialising also. Being invited guests, on this occasion the clubhouse was packed with the whites. Very hard to differentiate with different white nationalities; the famous ones were the British and the Americans because you could tell them, the British from their accents and the Americans miles apart. Unfortunately I was one of them, I used to be like Americans before. Even my teacher in school used to write in my composition books ‘we don’t want no American slangs in our compositions’. Well that’s apart from that, we were just proud of that. In ’71, I was touring Europe playing rugby and when we went back, I had a notice served by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs that my post will be nationalised in the Ugandan, um, Uganda Fishnet Company. As a chief electrical and, um, mechanical, um, supervisor. So, I happened to break this news in the club on that day, when that clubhouse was packed with whites and when I’d said I’d been served a notice to leave the country, erm, one of the groups standing next to us happened to comment ‘Oh Ajit, you’re not the only one, you will take the whole community with you.’ And I was surprised all of the sudden, then I questioned the gentleman. I said ‘What do you mean?’ Oh he possibly realised the mistake he done, revealing the top secret of the country. Er, he was one of the, er, government officers, erm, so he said ‘No, no, no I don’t mean nothing of that. No I don’t mean that um, what you’re thinking, I was talking to someone else. I mean something else.’ So, it never crossed my mind then, because the man covered up the whole issue to such a manner that it arose no suspicion in my mind. So it didn’t bother me at all. But later on, after a month or two, there was, there was a warning that all Asians are given ninety days notice to leave the country-

So that was the declaration of-

Of all the non-non Ugandan Asians and all the British passport holders only.

And where-can you describe your feeling because I suppose your reaction was quite different to other people ‘cause you may have suddenly realised as well, that guy was right so what-can you describe your initial reaction to that speech?

Yeah this was it, yeah. So well I was XXXX like, I was completely puzzled. I didn’t know what he meant by that but when the Jews were given thirty days notice it clicked quickly. Did he mean Jews as Asians also, what? So I said, nah.. Then after the Jews left, it was us, then it was printed in the paper news bulletins saying, Asians have been kicked out. They have been-all the British passport holders are given ninety days to leave the country. So then and then, I-I came to my senses and say oh the guy, whatever he mentioned in the clubhouse was for real.

Well-

It was a bit too late.

You got a scoop I think.

Oh yeah it was too late but, um, as my post was being nationalised, but the company wanted me to stay there. And my terms were that well I’ve already sent my family to United Kingdom. I can only stay here under one condition, if my three-quarter of the salary would go to United Kingdom and quarter given to me here to live. And those terms were not met then I said I’m sorry, I have to go.

So, um, what was the time difference between the declaration, the ninety day declaration and you getting your family out? Erm, how long did it take?

My family I took them out about in September I think, I sent them in September. We-we didn’t have time factor of ninety days, time limit-

Did you-when you first heard about the declaration, erm, did you think-‘cause a lot of people have inferred to me that they almost thought Mr Amin was joking ‘cause he’d-he’d mentioned things before and yet people tended to take what he said with a pinch of salt, lets say. Erm, did you feel-did you think this was real or was there a sense that, perhaps questioning it?

Because I-I personally took it for real because that incident all of sudden crept back to me when the gentleman said ‘you’ll be taking the whole community with you’. So I said it could be for real. So, I had no pangs of toothache, I would say doing fine here, you know?

True. And I mean it’s quite a decision isn’t it to send your family to the UK. Did you send the UK yourself or was it-cause you-your-

No, I mean when we were in school, we used to yearn to come to this country for education, this and that to learn some games and sports or this and that. They-I mean-United Kingdom was always for the further of-to further your education or any ability you want to gain this country was looked for. Um, thinking of, we will seek whatever we are looking for, in the United Kingdom. I mean, we didn’t know it was entirely different life here then what we used to have back home. It’s nothing like servants at your… for your service all the time, this and that. Its self catering here, like, self catering.

Bed and breakfast only.

Yeah. Even you become a millionaire, still you got to be a self catering. You’ve got to do that self catering.

It’s true. I know millionaires who can’t even afford a servant.

Yeah.

Erm, so obviously you had a British passport, did you?

Yeah, I had a British passport-

So that played in you-

The whole of our entire family, entire family had British passports. I’m sorry I-One of my cousins, he had a Ugandan passport and he-they were the first ones and they ended up in Norway-

Oh wow

Scandinavian countries and then they came back to the United Kingdom-

Ah ok. So, erm, obviously, your, erm, you didn’t actually come on a resettlement plane-the charter plane did you? You actually chose a plane yourself.

No I came by regular flight.

Can you tell me the story about that and also perhaps the story of the people who met you outside the bank. Erm, when you went to book the tickets.

Ah. I … as this human crisis started, people were trying to take old money out of the banks, this and that. Before these peoples monies were frozen in banks so before that came into fact. So I also happened to take all my money out of the bank. And as I was walking out of the bank, three-three guys local Africans, saw me come out of the bank, they started following me on the quiet road. And I had a suspicion, all the time that they-they will rob me definitely. Um, so, as I was walking, towards my home, towards the parliament square, on the high road, the British […] Airways then BOAC office came on the way and I slipped in. And I told the whole story to them, the guys were standing outside with a briefcase-a gun in it, possibly. And they waited-waiting and looking inside, what I was doing and I told the guys could I book three tickets for my family, the regular flight. Um, date doesn’t-I don’t remember the dates now, so that’s what I done. Whatever was the course of the tickets I paid and whatever was remaining I requested them if they could save that money for me in their office, in their custody. Other than me walking out with that and that gentlemen follow me and rob me. And they consented to keep the money and I was happy to leave the money and walk out bare hands nothing in my hands. And these-these guys just stopped tailing me then.

Uh-hmm. You had nothing to take.

I’d been- I’d XXXX. If that’s going to happen now then what would be coming later God knows. So-

Yeah. Um, can you-I mean that-I mean to me that sounds almost a sign of the way it was turning-

Yeah

The situation was turning very diff-quickly.

Yeah. The locals used-started taking law in their own hands and they started doing whatever, harass people and even so far so house break ins was increasing, car thieving was increasing. Loads, loads of things were happening, loads-

And often-

Yeah

More likely against the Asian community.

Very often, very often, yes.

And so I mean, you did feel a sense of danger for you and your family, you would say?-

That’s right, that’s right. So I-I thought it was high time to get my family out and as soon as I would settle my differences with the firm and I would walk out too. And I-so when I couldn’t finalise my terms with the- with Uganda Fishnets so I decided to leave the country too, that was in October ’72.

And can I ask what you did with your, erm, possessions? ‘Cause you’re only allowed to arrive with £50?-

The possessions, we were allowed only twenty-twenty eight kilos? Or twenty-three kilos, some-between twenty-three to twenty-eight kilos, er, per head. And my belongings was nothing and I came penny-less. Fortunately, when I was on the coach to airport, one of my white friends sighted me sitting and they came to-approached me and asked me to help him. And when I asked him what sort of help he said he’s got a mate who come from England visiting him. He’s also going back on the same plane, could you help him if he has any problem as far as the language of country’s concerned. I said fair enough, that’s no problem and when we were on-at Entebbe Airport, this-mind you this is regular flights not the chartered flights, um, I-my belongings were bit overweight. One of my tape recorders which I had on me, XXXX it was showing overweight, so I asked the girl there, um, I don’t want to leave it here on the counter-anyone who wants it, take it. So that girl put my-rest of the belongings through the customs-up to for the-after checking everything to go on the plane and the plain clothes detectives come around on the scene and arrest me for saying I was trying to bribe that girl. I said ‘In what sense? She said it was overweight so I took the tape recorder.’ I said, I told them ‘I put it on the counter.’ I said ‘If that is giving me the overweight, I have nothing to pay in excess so you can keep this. Anyone whose interested can take it.’ If that is bribing, I don’t know, I’m not bribing the person to anyone I just said this is free for anyone to take it. So they harassed me so much there. I had loads of Ugandan currency on me and this white friend whom I’d met on another friends advice and that, he wanted to buy some perfume and we were sitting up in the duty free shop drinking and I-I offered him a drink he said no he’ll buy, I said ‘No, no no, you’re not going to pay ‘cause I’ve got this money. Its-its gonna be useless as soon as we leave this place, it won’t be even worth tissue papers.’ So, I bought him, he said ‘If you don’t mind I have got no change, I want to buy some perfume for my girlfriend. I said, ‘Be my guest, take it.’ He said ‘No, no, no I’ll pay you as soon as we get on the plane.’ So I said ‘Fair enough, as it pleases you.’ So through all this harassments I happened to go through the plane was stopped for me because they were running late. I was the last passenger to board the plane and everyone eyed me as if I was the culprit. It-they went through my suitcases two-three times all of my belongings and few of my trophies I had on me, they took them out. They said ‘This is not yours, this belongs to the country.’ I said ‘This is my personal achievement.’ And they took out my trophies, this and that. ‘You can’t take this, you can’t take that.’ I said ‘Well this is my personal belongings.’ Alright, so they harassed me to the extreme and then when they asked me how much Ugandan currency I’ve got on me while I was walking towards the plane, chief plain-there’s a plain clothed police man who I said ‘I’ve got some, you want some?’ He said ‘You trying to bribe us?’ Well I said ‘This is gonna be no use to me. So if I throw here you might do me for assault saying you’re defaming of a currency.’ So it was a nightmare for me to leave the Entebbe Airport.

Were you ever in fear of your life at all?

Yep-yep I was, I was because I thought they might even detain me there. I was-when I got on the plane, that friend wrote me a check for five pounds that was the only money I came to this country with. With the kind generosity of that gentleman whom I gave Ugandan money, which was useless for me anyway. So that five pounds I cashed in Gant’s Hill Barclay’s bank.

Which is still there, not far away at all.

No its-its, um, Wellington Park-

So, um, yeah, lets talk about your arrival then. Erm, you arrived in the country with five pounds

Yeah

Um, you didn’t I’m guessing go to a settlement camp, or did you?

No, no I didn’t go to the settlement camp because my brother in law, my wife’s brother was here. He had a call from back from Kenya one of the brothers saying ‘oh he’s coming, I don’t want them to go to the camp, you take them home.’ So this is how I ended up in Gants Hill, straight… with my brother in law we stayed with him for few months and then I brought sixty-nine Hamilton Avenue.

Which is the place we’re sitting in now.

Yeah, this is it.

And can you tell me, er, obviously your, erm, your wife and your daughter had already arrived a few weeks before did you say or-

XXXX almost a month before-

Almost a month-

Something like that, yeah.

And they’d been living with your brother in law in Gants Hill-

My brother in law, yeah.

Um, what was your first reaction when you saw them, obviously, you-you’ve XXXX

Well it was a great relief because they were more worried about my safety other then I was worried about them-

Yeah

They were worried about me. They were much relieved to see me, in one piece.

Of course, of course. And-

Under those hostile conditions-

Yeah

We were put in.

And I suppose the communication was quite difficult back then, it’s not like today. You have the internet, Facebook or you could phone someone, you know-

Oh no, no, no, no, this was only telephones then, nothing else, yeah.

And I suppose they were watching the news every day and-

Oh yeah

Hearing some of the stories, the horrific stories of what was going on.

That’s right, yeah. Yeah we used to watch a lot of news, so many-so many people killed this way, that way not Asians, but Asians being robbed. Some-such and such house being broken into, all their belongings being taken, this and that. That was very common then, very common. Because-

I heard

The locals took… as a Christmas party that one.

Yes a free for all, I’ve heard.

Yeah, free for all, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, the um-

There was no law and justice then-

Of course

Because majority of them are army people, were disguised in robbers and all this-

Yeah

They used to call them XXXX

What does that, XXXX-

XXXX-robbers.

Robbers, what the army?

They used disguises also because-

No way

Cases used to happen that you’d go to report the case and police and you’d go and see ah, it’s the same pair, person who robbed me… Yes many cases we heard like that, many cases.

Wow. So-

It’s the same people who robbed us. I think it could have been the constable, three of them or the officer also.

Incredible

Yeah. Um, it was free for all.

Yeah, of course.

Yeah-

And you were the victims.

That’s right.

Um, and your life in England, let’s move on to this. And this is something I really want to sort of really explore-

Right, it is more fascinating?

I think it-I mean for me personally, I think it’s you know, sitting in this house now and finding out you bought this pretty much as soon as you arrived or you sort of found it-

Yeah, with five pounds in my pockets

It’s - now, this is the true story of the expulsion to me.

That’s the truth you know, the five pounds in my pocket.

So, so let’s start from the…

Sorry to say, there was a few more pounds in Greenford when I was, when I was here in ’71 playing rugby touring Europe, I- whatever was left of my travelling cheques, whether it was another £5 or £10 which I deposited in Greenford Barclay’s Bank.

Oh, so you actually already had a bank account that was open.

Yeah. And I just left it there, I thought “what’s the point, taking this and putting it there”.

That’s really interesting, I used to live in America, and I left an account open that has about $12, so I always think, if I ever get sent to America, at least I have $12…

As you mentioned America, all Americans… were so nice to me, my good friends. They were very good friends. One of them sent most of my belongings on the – American government’s expense to this country later on. He borrowed some money from me in Uganda, he then sent me dollars from America. He personally came to England with his new wife, and then I was working in Victoria, building uh, British Petroleum’s headquarters. And when I said to him “well, I’m working”, he said “it’s a Wimpy site”, I mean the building contractors, the main builders were Wimpy, and the Yankee jumped on “what are you working with a wimp for, mate!” I said “no, it’s a building construction firm, not the ‘wimpy’ as in ‘wimpy’”

Very different. And um, you um, you’ve obviously, so you’ve moved to uh, first you stopped in Gant’s Hill, then you eventually found this wonderful house here.

My sentiment here was come to Gant’s Hill, as my brother in law had a two bedroom place on top of his laundrette, he had his family, then his two younger brothers were already staying with him, one of them was working and the other one was studying, then we came in, and his elder brother was here, he also stayed with him, his wife came, and his- the eldest of his brother’s wife also came, so everyone was being accommodated there in two bedrooms we were sharing, then slowly and slowly, after a couple weeks, one of the brothers moved to Ilford. Eaton Road, because that belonged to his in-laws, who had bought the house, they were still in Kenya, so some of them, some of us used to go and sleep there, not me in person, but some of the family members used to go a and sleep there, but… Eating, lodging was done here. Completely, eating was done here. So it was a burden on- of a young man who was catering for us.

Well, I’m sure he never viewed it as a burden.

Sorry?

I’m sure he didn’t view it as a burden.

It was a burden, I mean, feeding about fourteen, fifteen, men at a time, three times a day, we used to eat like pigs then because, carry on about that country… it took her some time to adjust to this country, eating –I’m going to say- habits, so we carried on three times, heavy meals.

And did you um- what was your first impression of England? You’d been to Europe before, hadn’t you?

Yeah, it was okay, we came to play a game and it was nice, people were nice. Well, but the food, you only come to know what the taste of the country is when you start working.

It’s true.

That’s it, I mean, otherwise you wouldn’t know what the country’s like, if you’re a free man, if you’ve got enough money, any country is gold for you, because you’ve got to do nothing. When you have to earn your livelihood, especially in the cold weather, yeah, then you can start learning what life is.

And did you- uh, where did you start working when you arrived?

I started working, um, after, after a month, a month’s arrival, I think. After a month’s arrival in this country I started working.

So straight in there. And was that with Pete on the construction site?

No no no no no no no, that was with Barclay’s electrical.

So you worked there as well?

That was Barclay’s electrical. That was my first, um, employment with. Um, their head office was in Victoria, Vincent Street, if I’m not mistaken. Um, that’s going back nearly, nearly forty years ago. Um, the XXX those days was “first come, last to go, last come, first to go”. And that was very common, uh, on top of that, come Christmas, building industry used to shed labour. Always. Um, ah, I bought this house, 69 Hamilton Avenue, um, I was hardly in employment three months when I’d lost the job. And I was paying £169 a month then because the mortgages were frozen, and I was knew, I didn’t know nothing, my brother in law approached a friend who arranged the mortgage for us, it happened to be a money lender’s, and I was paying 24%, then it was brought to my notice that one of the… uh… what do they call… Citizen’s Advice Bureau. When I had gone to them to seek some advice about changing the mortgage, they put me right saying “you already paid 24%, you’d be losing too much if you change this to another society or whatever, you’re going to lose a hell of a lot more money, it’s best to keep it there, but didn’t you know you were paying so much?” I said “I had no idea”. 24% then, people used to pay £20 and they used to scream their heads off. Whenever I used to tell people I was paying £169, they said “bullshit, coming here”, right? Bullshit.

You could have bought a few houses in Uganda, I think, with that.

Loads, loads of them. Because I happened to borrow £10 000 from Midland Banks in Southall, because my brother in law who I was living with when I came to England in ’72, he was in Greenford, he had his little account in Southall, Midland Banks. The manager knew him, so he took me there, so I got a £10 000 from him, in order to mortgage. The house was for 15 000. We bought three houses from the same gentleman, Irish gentlemen, he had some sort of business. He had three houses; one in Leytonston, one in Ardville Avenue here, not far from me, and on Hamilton Avenue where he himself lived. So he said if we bought all three, he would give us this house for 15 000, so we bought all three from him, so we… so I was lucky to get this for 15 000.

I think it’s probably worth a few more than 15 000 now.

This? This was done by me.

Really?

Really. This was done by me.

It’s a really a beautiful house.

It was done by me. Oh, everything done by me. He… being Irish, a husband, a wife, and son. Upstairs in the bathroom, was a kitchen, of course it would be subletted, and he… I don’t know- that was a sitting room there, in front, and this was a bedroom, I think.

What, downstairs?

I think he was subletting it also.

Perhaps if he owned properties, perhaps he employed and let people live here.

Yes, I mean, my brother in law lived with him in Ireland because they because two good friends with him, and he is, he bought a beautiful place in Ireland, I don’t know where, by the seaside. Beautiful.

And you um, obviously, you came to England ’71, ’72, and it was quite a – I mean, England was in quite a lot of turmoil back then. Um, really politically and socially. Um, and I’d say particularly this region as well.

Well, I mean, XXX, from the government’s side, yes, and Banupal was a great force there. I mean, he raised the issue of West Indians coming here, then obviously the British Asians, now, was facing the same music from Mr Banupal.

Do you, I mean, did it ever filter down to you or your family, did you ever fear-feel a sense of tension, did you anybody ever say anything in the street? Because obviously Barkingside at the period was going through cultural change, everything changed-

Yeah, there was a lot of problems early days from the skinheads. And the Teddy Boys. They were not many around, but the skinheads taking over now. That lot of problems we used to have. We were termed, we were termed ‘bloody Pakis’ all the time, anyone with a turban, a ‘bloody Paki’, that was the terminology used.

“Go home Paki”, that was the-

I remember when I first came to sign- sign on after being absent, made redundant. Seven Kings was the jobcentre. I was… I went there to sign in, I was queuing up, I didn’t know the XXX, I mean, the gentleman standing there, looked at me, says “you bloody Paki, what you come here for?” That really put me off completely, I just wanted to run away from there, and I- I just signed, I didn’t want to go sign again. I didn’t want their money for nothing, because I was unemployed, and I was asked to sign it because I was unemployed, so I went to sign. I think, during my forty years of staying in this country, I might have claimed once through unemployment, that’s it. Once or twice. Nothing more than that. That was also for a week or two. I was so fortunate, I used to get a job.

Well, you say fortunate, I say that also you had…

And also, on top of that, I was so fortunate to be working in such environments which most people won’t even dream. I- I happened to work in the Bank of England, ink factory, Whitehall, Ministry of Defence of Leicester, and most of the banks in the bank area, so some police station, um, I forgot the name in Liverpool Street, yeah. Police station there. And most of these XXX places then, they used to be big buildings and be- XXX used to own, worked all those buildings in London.

So, I mean, would you say you’ve been very lucky in terms of…

Very lucky, very lucky yeah. Very lucky.

And, let’s go- can you tell me what kind of help the British government gave you? I mean, we’ve talked about whether you’ve had any – or even the British community, I mean we’ve talked about the odd skinhead, um, but was there ever members of the white community…?

As far as the British government is concerned, because I didn’t go to the camps, so I didn’t come into it, those brackets. So I was sort of um, catered by my brother in law.

Yeah, you were never a refugee. You were a…

Yeah, so I didn’t claim nothing of that sort. There are no refugee benefits or anything of that sort. But… lucky to get a job, and that was the only help I needed. And I plod along from there slowly and slowly, and look back for nothing. No favours, nothing of that sort, I mean, even back home, I never looked for any favours from our parents, I believed in my own rights, working, and survive.

And I think that’s gotten you quite far in life.

Well this is it, I wanted to, but um, I had a lot of ambitions. A lot of ambitions. I wouldn’t like this to be recorded, but the family at large, because I was well-to-do back at home, back home, a most of them had a lot of money in this country already sent, all of them were living on rent when I had £5 in my pocket, was having my own roof over my head, which they could not bear. Could not take it. They tried their level best to see me out on the roadside. They poisoned my brother’s ears, who was a joint partner in this house, and my sister, and my parents were living with me. They took every mean step to see us completely parted from each other.

Wow, so the bigger battle, it seemed really, was with your own family.

Yeah, that was the biggest battle, yeah. That was a bigger battle, so… Because four names were put on this house. Myself, my wife, my sisters, and my brothers, because we had to produce the pay slips. Them days, that was the… carry on, must produce the evidence where their income coming from, so… put together, all four pay slips couldn’t meet the criteria of achieving a mortgage, so… the brothers hardly la- my sisters, they hardly lasted a month or two with me, after taking the mortgage. They were poisoned, their ears were poisoned, they- they left me, they had to go, so I was struggling now with my wife, with my three kids here…

And you were paying for two- for four people’s mortgages in one.

And the mortgage I was paying on my own.

That’s amazing.

Yeah.

So, I mean, life doesn’t exactly sound easy here.

No, not easy, I mean I faced the music but, uh, I didn’t- I didn’t mind, but that was the biggest problem, was setback… setback. But money had value. Let’s put it this way: I will – I was… XXX was about £30, I was so lucky the first big job was St Thomas’ Hospital. That was the biggest job.

And what was your firm? What was the…

Uh, this was the Phoenix- the first electrical job um… I come back- when I got laid off by Barclay’s, and I was completely heartbroken, as I had taken- bought the house, no income, nothing, so I was looking through the local paper, um, there was an ad for electricians. I said “I better take it”. So I rang the people. It was Bosey’s Brothers. I had – a local electrical firm on XXX in East Ham. Whether or their shop came into Forest Gate, it was on that XXX Road.

Yeah, main road.

Right, so … I rang the guys, the guy said to me uh, “could you come over please?” I said “well, today?” He said “if you want to come today, you come today, we’ll interview you”, so I went for an interview. So uh… I was interviewed, the guy made me laugh when- when he asked me my name, I said “Ajit”, he said “what?” I said “Ajit”. Four letters, I spelled it. He said “No, no no no, it’s too difficult to remember”, I said “what? Too difficult, four letter word?” I said… all of a sudden, my brain clicked, I said “Aji, Aji, Aji, as if you’re edging someone, Aji. Agitator. Agitator. Agitator. You can call me Aji. Agitator.” The guy started laughing and almost rolling on the floor laughing, he said “hang on, hang on hang on, mate, hang on, you’ll give me a tummy ache, hang on.” I said “what, that’s the easiest way to remember, Aji Aji Aji Aji Agitator, right?” So that word, ‘agitator’, became so famous with my name later, even the last contracts we had with Goldman Sachs, one of my colleagues, he used to call me “oy, Aji! Agitator!” all the time, he used to sing. All the time.

Like the Terminator, but the Agitator.

Yeah, yeah it became sort of a term. Oh, Aji, Agitator. Every time I would give some grief to chief engineers or this and for discussing other projects, this and that-

Yeah, yeah.

They would say “stop agitating us…” So then that was a part and parcel of my name then. I mean the guys said “ok, um, could you start on Saturday?” I said, “I don’t mind mate, I can start anyway.” He said, “but one personal question I would like to ask you,” I said “XXXX go ahead.” He said “no offence”, I said “go ahead”. He said “the first job is in brewery mate, would you mind working in a brewery?” I said, “why you ask me that?” I said “I’d love to”, I said “I would rather swim in it-“

XXXX

He said “no, no I’m asking because some religious people don’t like to work in such-”

Yep

“Environments.” I said “nah, I would love to”. He said “ok”, so we started with that firm XXXX-that was my second job now within two, three months. So they-we were sent to Ind Coope Breweries in Romford, by the market… Funny enough when we went there, it was on the picket line… but the guys drove us through and they went and as we were talking to the site agent, an electrical firm who were doing their job was called a parker electrical firm Birmingham side from Midlands somewhere. Um, they said to us well look, this is what’s happening, there’s a strike here and we would like to engage you people to do our job over the Easter holidays, whatever it was, or the bank holidays. So we have to hand over certain area after these holidays we’re promised, so that’s the reason we are… in a grave need of workers. So as our people are on strike, so we can’t really meet our commitments, so if you could help us. As soon as we were discussing this, the picket line stewards and all those come over and XXXX giving us razzmatazz which I didn’t know and didn’t understand even much about it. “Brothers, this and that this is our job you shouldn’t be jeopardising our livelihoods this, you’d better leave the site.”

Solidarity

Sure, Because we-we didn’t know about the unions so, so the guys explained to us all look what we will do the site agent said, “you go and have a cup of tea, come back by the main gate, there’s no pickets there and we’ll let you in.” So we done the same after having a cup of tea in some cafe, Murphy’s cafe somewhere. I think I still remember the Murphy’s cafe in Romford, um, we’ve gone back and sneaked through the main gate and worked throughout … had plenty of beer to drink at our… so the-the guy said “here have a few crates, help yourself whenever you want a drink but please, finish this job for us.”

It’s a perk of the job, XXXX.

This was-yeah, that was for a week’s job for ten men. So we were there, were six or seven of us so he said, we asked him, I said “what if we finish it before the holidays?” He said, “well we’ll pay you whatever we have agreed.” I said “fair enough.” We happened to finish the same night… same night we finished the job and the management XXXX electrical governors and they were very happy. So they took us, they were supplying labour to another major firms called Phoenix, they had a picket line also and they were doing St.Thomas’s hospital on the banks of River Thames opposite side to former GLC. Now you can either place us in Waterloo or you can go in Westminister its joining the Westminister bridge, so when we went there we faced the same music again. “Scabs, scabs” banging on XXXX with the main contractors there. They happened to lay the transport from Burrow station where Phoenix head office was, so we were asked to come there so XXXX the transport will be given from there. So we-we were sneaked in through in that manner to St. Thomas’s, the second employment, second taste of picket line. So… we were there after XXXX there were two companies supplying the labour, one from the West London king’s and this from the East London XXXX brother’s. So it so happened, slowly and slowly, Phoenix wanted to get rid of these labour supplying companies and they took over the entire labour who was willing to work for them on their payroll. So I was lucky to be one of them, so I ended up working seven years for them, Phoenix doing some major work for them also. I was a supervisor and a foreman, um, unfortunately, one of my friends-I don’t know whether he’s still alive, Mr Burt Hunter he was well famous in union. He knew Ian Chappelle or was it Frank Chappel, Ian Chappel, I forgot-

No it was a Chappel, yep I remember I think it was Frank.

Yeah, yeah. He was the head of the union then, he-they were good mates and Bill seaman used to be the London area officer, um, we-I worked for them. They XXXX the idea of coming to coming to me because we done some projects together and I done the job, he-he got the fame. My-my mate Burt Hunter, um, he and other labour manager Dave-Dave Evans, Phoenix labour manager they-they cooked something they come to me I was-we were doing Bank of India and Bank area and I was sorting out some plant when they shouted to me. Um, I went over to them and asked what it was and they handed me a letter. I said, “I asked them what it was they said ‘oh don’t worry, it’s nothing, it’s just a hoodwink’.” I said “what do you mean by hoodwink?” “It means, it’s saying we are terminating my services.” He said “nah, nah it’s just a bluff don’t worry.” I said “bluff, in black and white?”

Yeah, it seems more than a bluff.

He said-he said “no, no” he said “we are getting rid of people with two to four years service.” I said “but mine is seven years and you’re telling me it’s a bluff?” And that was for real… and I went-I went to sign on and the guys I showed them the letter also. They said “you got so many more weeks to go mate, you can’t sign on because you have to finish the-your term of resignation, um, redundancy. A number of weeks, every week every year a week for you so you got to serve that notice.” I said “the guy”-I was in office I said, the guy, my own mate told me I’m not supposed to be within those four walls, I should not be, I’m not in their books anymore. I’m finished with them, I said “that’s the reason I’ve come over here, I’ve already been there and they said no, I’m not working so they said leave it to us and we’ll sort out this” and they rang Phoenix headquarters and spoke to my mate, the union head and explained that some of your guys came over to sign. This is his name and according to his letter and him, saying there’s so many weeks left for his redundancy, um, redundancy notice and you people are saying, “no he’s finished, he can’t work, he’s finished.” So he wanted to sign-we won’t let him sign until he’s finished his redundancy notice. Um, so the telephone rang the same evening, my mate blowing his top, “why the hell did I go to the Jobcentre, you bastard, you shouldn’t have done this.” I said “well, what else was left for me to do, there was no option I told you, I tried to convince you.” Being my mate also, I said “I tried to twist your arm saying I’ve got still so many more weeks to go, but you wouldn’t listen to me and so that was the only place I had to go to sign on by right. To declare that I’m unemployed from today according to you people.” “You come-come back tomorrow enough you bastard XXXX.” So he rang our mate Bill Seaman who now by-before he was a London area officer who now is, um, labour manager for James Scott another big electrical firm, electrical mechanical. So as soon as he heard my name, he said what has he done? He said, nothing, um, can I send him over to you, Bill? He said, oh by all means, by all means if he’s our friend we can’t see him suffering. So he sent me over there, so he signed me on… he signed me on and I was eight years with them, served eight years with them, done major contracts with them including the Bank-Bank of England, Whitehall and we went to ink factory, Ministry of Defence in Leicester to rectify a lot of work undertaken by one of the directors who was the engineer right. I had to go and rectify all his… jobs, yes-

Cleaning up after the boss.

Yes, so I’m-I got hurt in Bank of England and that’s how I lost my eight years service saying I did not send sick notices. I sent them one sick notice, told them “I’m not fit, I will be sending you another sick note before coming, when I feel like I’m fit.” They terminated my eight years service saying I have terminated it on my own for not sending sick notes, so I lost that job. Then I started my own and I-

You decided you wanted to be the boss?

Because I was hurt, I almost got paralysed and I could hardly manoeuvre myself and local builder, I don’t know where he got my name from, he was stuck, he was doing some work for an architect and there was a fourteen bedroom… old people’s home in Pinner. Um, that architect project so he was-this local builder was doing this architect’s office in Kingston so he took me out, told him “look I cannot even walk, I cannot manoeuvre, I cannot-I can only sit or-so if you want me to do your job I cannot do it. It’s only one condition, I can do it, I’ll take my brother in law with me, the youngest one. I’ll show him what to do, he’ll do it if you’ve got no objection.” He said “no I’m interested XXXX.” I finished the job for him and all-all the office for the architect, the drawing room and all that and his office. He was so much pleased with it so he-we were invited for the party for the opening ceremony and that was on the Saturday, we finished half noon. I’m struggling to do his XXXX lighting, all this fascinating stuff, which arrived the last minute, in the afternoon and the evening he was holding a party in the same place.

And he need light.

Yeah, so we finished it, it was so- so much overwhelmed XXXX. He really liked everything and his other project electrical contracts were giving them hard time. So the builders who were doing the construction for that old people’s home also were present there and my name was being nominated without my knowledge. And then I was taken to the builders who we were introduced that I will be doing a project, at the same time I had a big house on top of my road which I’d already consented to do, because I was out of work. So I said I will do that, so I had to turn that down and took this fourteen bedroom old people’s home which included fire alarms, XXXX system, laundry system all-music system everywhere, so that was a good big contract I thought that’s a good breakthrough for-but the builders turned me over. Because it was taken on mutual understanding and I had to pay from my pocket. The forty thousand contract then, I had to pay a lot of money out of my pocket. All these big panels which were part of the builders XXXX-

So you’re paying for theirs?

I have to buy for them.

You’re paying for their supplies.

Yeah, I’m paying for them. So that was a bitter taste of my own contracts but at the same time I had loads of contracts for the same time. Six, seven but the labour force, I could not get it XXXX. And then I came back to building industry and I joined, um, XXXX… Did I, hang on. No, no I didn’t-didn’t join XXXX, sorry I-I was looking for a job and I’d gone through agencies, called XXXX . I joined them and-and I was fortunate now again to be sent to British broadcasting service… right, in Holborn. I was there… and I worked there then from there, I was sent to… Whitecity-the studio five, um, they used to do- that’s the TV centre we’re talking about now.

Yeah

Whitecity, um, they used to do the sports programmes and we-

Yeah, I used to work there, at the television centre.

Yeah. We refurbished the whole area linked with that studio five. Um, one of my engineers so XXXX commended me and all the certificates which was supposed to be given to me. Well, one day I went to XXXX office, they were hanging in their office, with my name on it. And I say, well I […] asked the gentleman I said what-what are those things doing up there mate? There-there supposed to be in my custody. They said no, no these are XXXX these are ours. I said but it says Arjit Sondh not you. So this is it, well it’s still lying with them so um-

So that you’ve lost your trophies in Uganda, your certificates in London, people keep taking all your awards off you.

Yeah, yeah. Well I got a few things, you know, a few things I mean this-this, um, I started working there then finished with… that… the girl who used to be our wages clerk, Shirley Eaton with Phoenix, my first big firm, of big-where I’ve worked for a long time. The first big firm was Barclays, this, let’s say this is the second big firm. Phoenix, which was international, they had a lot of work in Middle East also. The girl who worked for Phoenix as wages clerk now I was finished-I was looking for a job again and I happened to be ringing when I started with, um, XXXX she was working for XXXX. She gave me on, then when I finished with this she was labour manager with XXXX. When I rang, she recognised me straight-oh who is that Arjit? I said yes. I said who is that, Shirley. I said what’s up, love. I said I’m looking for job. She said, you don’t have to ask for a job, come on then, I’ll sign you on. Go to Barking shopping centre, that’s at Vicarage Farm, is that Vicarage Farm?

Yes, it is Vicarage Farm.

Yeah. That-that was where I started working for XXXX. Ah-

So she was your guardian angel, it seems-

Yeah. I worked there and then I worked in NatWest bank in Aldgate. Where they do all the administration and the paperwork stationary-

Yeah

We worked there for XXXX. I made a lot of money there. A lot of-a lot of overtime-

Do you-it seems like you have a real um, ethic for work, like a work ethic.

Yeah

I mean, that’s not unique to you though that. I mean that-I’ve found every member-

I mean this is it, I took a challenge because that was my nature like lets-let’s get back to square one in Africa now, East Africa. If people said with my physique, I’m about five, five or something, um, not very stoutly built but very XXXX, let’s put it this way. Um -

A Tough-tough cookie.

I can take-take, take the challenge-

Yeah, yeah.

That’s-that’s my nature. I used to, if somebody said you can’t do this in games and sports, I said I will do it. And I proved it and I done it. Rugby is not my taste why-it’s a joke now I was doing a job for a XXXX in Chislehurst. Irish-Irish foreman for the builders sight, we were having a lunch break, sitting on the lawn of that XXXX pad, on his house discussing and I happened to say I-I used to play rugby. This big, hefty Irish guy looked at me and said what, were you the player or the ball?

I thought he was gonna accuse you of being a winger, not the ball, that’s incredible. I think that’s the Irish sense of humour.

Yeah, that’s it, yeah that’s it. I think yeah-

But do you-but, I mean-

Yeah when we-when I toured Europe, Fergus Slattery was playing with us-

Really? That’s right, yeah, yeah.

He was one of the players as a guest member, included on our team. Two of them were playing with us-

Do you think I mean in terms of the work ethic, do you think it’s because-you’ve just said you like a challenge if someone’s-if somebody says you can’t do something you’ll do it-

Yeah, yep yeah.

Do you think it was the same with the when you were-when you left Uganda with nothing, you had everything taken, did you see that as a challenge to get your life?-

Yeah, yeah. That-that was initiative also to look forward. Look-not to look back what the parents had. I think because I never looked back there, even then so that was part and parcel of my nature like, let’s put it this way so, I had to struggle to make ends meet. So that paid off slowly and slowly. I went one place to another, one place to build my own reputation, one so-

As you said earlier it’s a survival instinct, you lose a job, you have to get another job-

Yeah, that’s right, that’s right. It’s-it’s survival-it’s survival-

To survive. You have a mortgage to pay-

Let’s put it this way. Any-majority of the nation, even today, if you look at them, if they don’t have regular work, they can’t survive… majority.

Yeah yeah, the system cannot help you support you all your life-

Yeah, yeah. That’s where we also came in and we have to do the same thing.

Uh-hmm. Do you think, um, do-I mean do you generally think in terms of, that there is-because-why do you think the Ugandan Asian community has been so successful, because it’s-it’s almost-when I first came and sat down in your wonderful living room I-I said part of the reason we’re doing this project is because really, the Ugandan Asian community’s seen probably the most successful-

I-I. They have-the best.

They’re held up as the most-

Yep. They-Indians were here… now, Indians were here… we’ve heard a lot of stories, early days between ‘70’s-’75, ’76. There was a jealousy amongst East Africans Asians and the Indian Indians, South Asians. Because they used to say, oh these-these people have just come this country, we have been here for yonks. Look at them, their flash motors, they come in the pub, jump in their motor, gone-whizz, disappeared and we are waiting here for a bus to come. The difference and in Leicester, we heard stories that East Africans who opened their shops, they were ruined by jealousy. But-jeopardised their business out of sheer jealousy people used to come and wreck the place, this and that. Because as I said there were XXXX opening ceremony for a shop opposite, they said their prayers and got the sweets there. All-any customers coming yes I said to give sweets is a good omen and so they would go in for that and these hooligans would go, Asians again and they jeopardise the whole area.

XXXX

Yeah, this is what-these stories were going on before, I mean they were so jealous, so jealous but in a way, we catered everything for them, nobody wanted to take them on before-

Yeah, yeah-

Because they said, illiterate, lack of social behaviour and no manners, no etiquette so when-I’m not saying we’re well cultured, this-no. We know where what goes.

Do you think it helped the fact that you were brought up, erm, in essentially in a colonial system as well, an English colonial system? I know Uganda had independence-

Yeah

But, before that-

Yeah, majority, majority of the places where the colonial rule was, they XXXX.

The culture was still there-

Yeah-

Almost, wasn’t it and the sports that you played in Uganda when you were young-I mean, their all British sports you know-

Yeah

This is a-

Rugby yes-

You know, the aftermath of the colonial power-

That’s right, yeah-

Despite the fact they’d left-

XXXX

So do you think that helped when you arrived here, a lot of you had almost-you’d been adapted already, almost to the British system.

Oh yeah, we were-because as I said my parents was too much into these white friends. Many, many parties were organised and Christmas time we-we never knew what Christmas was? It was only the-when Christmas comes in December, big baskets being made. Nothing small gifts, baskets that big, local-made baskets were beautiful, of cane. Packed with different sweets, drinks, this and that for that-that XXXX [SWAHILI] for this XXXX [SWAHILI] for that XXXX [SWAHILI] and we always used to be ready to pounce on anything XXXX on any damn thing what was left there, we see no-one looking assorted biscuit XXXX, tins. We’d never seen them-but that was sort of a luxury, right so every time nobody’s looking-open it, get the tape off, eat the bottom layer, top layer then back in office. That’s in office, not in the house, little offices and when, when they used to have these-their friend officers come in, these big XXXX [SWAHILI] oh XXXX tea, alright. Oh yes, yes we’ll have and he would ask-ask the servant, er, get those biscuits out, this and that and they take one layer out and there’s nothing on the bottom, still XXXX seen.

Too late by then, you’ve already enjoyed the biscuits.

Well, this is it, I mean we used to have a lot of fun like that well this is-that was our XXXX because I would say we were well-well to do, we didn’t suffer much, we didn’t- we were not that there-

Yeah, yeah-

That’s it, we were somewhere-

But you weren’t-you weren’t down there-

No, we were somewhere, three quarters or something like that-

Yeah, yeah, and do you think, er, I mean so, I suppose, ‘cause I think the biggest issue-whenever I ask people what was their first impressions of England, people oh it’s the weather, oh its cold the weather, erm, or the food is often an issue is well. Um, but it seems to me, er, one thing that helped the Ugandan Asian community, obviously they weren’t used to the weather, they weren’t used to the food but certain aspects of British society they were already aware of. You know, cricket for example, they played cricket you know-

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah-

So they XXXX on it and you know a lot of Ugandan Asians already spoke a certain level of English as well which obviously helped-

That-that’s true, that’s right yeah, yep-

Because the biggest test for any migrant is being able to talk-

English was taught from primary, um, primary three, four-four or something like that-we started early-

So I mean all these things helped you perhaps achieve the status-this successful status-

Yeah-

The fact that you had this work ethic installed in you, erm, but also-

Yeah that’s right and as was-as I’m saying most of the families used to intermingle with the British also obviously there’s no there’s no other way of transaction-

Yep-

Right, or communication if the guys been old enough in the country, he would speak Swahili-my father was multi-lingual in that way but no English, this is it. All three or four African languages he could speak.

Oh

Hmmm. Um, this is XXXX we felt that-that’s how most of the Asian community who were in business had no problem. Because they met most of the people, from all fields of life, lows, highs, high society this and that so they knew hot to behave, where to behave, what not to do, how to accommodate certain groups. Right, how to treat them, how if a low-low class, if he’s welder give-dish out the same treatment to him, similar way. I mean, that low class will be always the same to everyone.

Do you think all these-its quite interesting isn’t it because all these skills, your ability to sort of, um, you know interact with different communities in business et cetera, um, the reality is once Idi Amin, um, removed you from his country, he took your possessions, he took your money and he threatened you. But he couldn’t take away these skills that you’d learnt-

No-

Your ability to make business-

Yeah this is-

Your ability to turn around profit quickly-

This is what Bob Astell, he was one of the British guys there, he was henchmen, I think he was killed later. I saw him here in ’72, no ’73 or ’74 in Bank area eye-eye to eye XXXX. I said Bob, he looked at me and he turned his face, he was in Kampala- he used to come to rugby club. And then later I learned he is, he was murdered also-

The secret-

By Idi Amin

Really part of the-

Yeah, yeah that’s right-

The foreign diplomat service.

He, nah-he I think-I think he wrote in the paper that, um, Sikhs… he said other nations, XXXX and all this are shopkeepers, a nation of XXXX [SWAHILI] shopkeepers. But Sikh community… the country will let them because they are fundi [SWAHILI] F-U-N-D-I, that’s technicians right, craftsmen that’s fundi-

Engineers-

Yeah, so that’s where the country’s gonna lack. All the skilled people will be going, amongst these what-lot leaving the country. So XXXX [SWAHILI] people will manage to run the shops, but to get the skilled labour, that’s going to be a deficiency in the country. So that’s why he said it will be the biggest blow to see Sikh community going away, especially because carpenters, bricklayers, contractors, electrical, mechanical, you name it they were there.

And always in demand-

Yeah-

Those things-

That’s it-

Every country needs these skills that-

Yeah, yeah that’s it.

And, um, you-let’s talk about-we’re gonna start wrapping it up soon, um, ah… certainly the next ten minutes or so. Let’s talk about, um, your family here, I mean when you sort of-I’ve met your daughter, Veena who obviously I met on the internet to, um, approach you into this interview. And you know when you see Veena and her children who I’ve-she’s told me about, um, gone to university et cetera, I mean if you look back to 1971, 1972 when you first arrived here, you know you-that time where you almost looked like you were going to lose your house after three months of getting it you were made redundant for the second time-

Yeah

And you look back at all the possessions that you lost in Uganda and the life that was taken away from you, are you proud when you look round and you see what you’ve achieved?

Well it was, it was a challenge again, let’s put it this way it was a challenge every time trying to settle, something happened. So-

Uh-hmm, it’s just the next challenge.

Yeah

That’s very modest of you though, I mean it’s-

Yeah it was, I mean you’ve taken it… you gotta be patient… I mean… although I’m human, I used to get heartbroken, I mean XXXX failed me a lot. She was working, she used to take my youngest XXXX say the place she worked was in Green Street, um, Forest Gate… stitching right, XXXX… The owner was a female, she said and my sister in law also was working there to, the two of them used to go there together, oh three of them, two sisters in law, her. And she used to take the baby with her three month old, four month old baby, with her all the time. And she said don’t worry about the baby, you bring the baby here, you do the work, I’ll look after her. She was so nice, so nice I mean she helped her a lot, I mean she used to feed the baby everything. She-she’s a real XXXX, she would let her work, I mean people have been very helpful also, the same time. My next door neighbour was an old lady, um, there were two-two couples living together, related-English, um… she-she was living downstairs I think. Their grandson stayed upstairs XXXX, and she stayed down, when we moved in, in the first couple of months her husband died. And she was nice, nice lady no, all of them were nice and… we didn’t know much… so because people, this kind of people want to keep them separate themselves. It’s nothing like back home if XXXX are visiting me, I’m not in then next door will say oh come on, come on-

Wait-

Come on, don’t worry come in be our guest till they don’t come. So you can’t see here happening this-this XXXX until you know the people.

Yep

You know, so… she, my kids were raised by her. If we have to go somewhere, we will give the keys to her and she would make sure the-she would even pick them from school, bring them, stay with them. If we happened to come by midnight or two o’clock in the morning she would be still there, with the kids, she’d be sitting there. She was such a nice lady.

And was she, um, was she Asian or is she a white lady?

White lady-

White lady

White lady, I’m telling XXXX, they’re-they’re gone a long time ago. They gave me the offer first when they were selling, but Veena was getting married then. So that XXXX tied up or I would have bought that house, so even this one. But that was my idea to buy a few-which my, but my-

So you’re, you’re really happy here aren’t you?

Yeah, which my brother there, then buy another one, give it to rent but I-I-

Uh-hmm. When you first-

My family at large, as I said earlier didn’t allow this to happen, they wanted to break us before because they saw the roof over my head before them, with five pounds in my pocket and they had the money in the banks here and they’re living rent, that jealousy-

I: Jealousy, amongst the family-

That’s it so-

Do you think-I mean when you first arrived here did you see yourself staying, um, in England, obviously you knew you wouldn’t go back to Uganda, or did you think one day you would?

No the first-yeah people-everyone felt like that, um, I tried in fact, before coming I tried in Kenya… because when they gave me that notice so, I had to leave, their nationalising my post I-I told my brother in law, her elder brother, um, he said not to worry, that’s no problem. So he spoke to one of his friends who-who had a textile, owner of a textile, he said yes I’ll take him on. It was all done but when it come to the government level, I’m leaving one country going there there's-it was east like European… community. It was East African community, that was organisation, three-three XXXX countries. No Zambia also I think had part of it, they were together so they said if one community country has asked them to leave the country we cannot take him. So we will be violating the rules and regulations-

Yep-

Of the community. So-

It will affect the agreements.

Yeah, yeah, that’s it so-so I had to leave otherwise I was offered a job in Kenya-

Yeah

God knows I might have been there still now-

Your life may have been a little bit different.

Yeah, yeah different, entirely different.

Um, and I mean, so-but once you were here after a few years you realised this was your home, I mean-

Oh yeah, I mean this it, we have to take it. I didn’t want to go to any other country, so-

Uh-hmm. And let’s talk about Uganda, when we first started chatting you said you went back in 2010, was it?

2011

’11, was that the first time you went back since the ‘70’s-

That’s it that- I wanted to go while I was in Kenya in 2005, I wanted to go to Uganda. I was trying to get tickets then there was some big outcry going on, a bit unstable. Something like some commotion between the government or I don’t know exactly, then my family members in Kenya, wouldn’t let me. They said no, we don’t want to let you go, it’s not safe, so you’re not going. That’s it yeah.

Uh-hmm, so even then still a concern. And so you went back, erm, interesting-

In 2011-

And what-can you tell me what were your first reactions-

Yeah it-the first reaction when I landed out in Entebbe, it was different and till it-bigger, bigger airport, much bigger airport now. Um, I’ll show you, got some photographs there-

Oh amazing-

With the Olympic team flying out and, um, going through the system, a taxi driver XXXX completely system like people are asked, you want a taxi? It’s organised within the area there, that the taxi drivers come and they escort you to the taxis. Um, another big thing shook me, the development, so much development from Entebbe to Kampala is about twenty miles-twenty to twenty one miles difference-distance like… Before, it was isolated huts here and there, mud huts, this time I saw development, houses like this you see like my shed here-solid, tiled roofs, far inside, not on the roadside. Few of them on the roadside, along the roadside but now it’s about maybe two hundred yards, hundred yards down the road. Nice, like a little location, nice and through our most very isolated areas, where you won’t find life, development XXXX and when you come near Kampala, seven, eight miles non break throughout, and you can see you’re getting into hustle bustle there now.

Hmmm, the city’s getting bigger.

Oh that was the chaos. That was the chaos when I seen there. Gone to our Sikh temple were three of us, Sikh temple. So we said we’ll go to Sikh temple then we find out from someone, good hotels, we’re bound to get someone there. So-because I knew a few of them-electrical contractors who was still there, right I said there used to be very XXXX linked with the church, the temple. Family members may be there so that it was different story, entirely different, most of India, Indian Sikhs have come there, all different. So we went up there asked for the […] there was a temple coming from Entebbe straight, there was one temple there and there’s-there’s a national stadium, football stadium and you go up slightly. That’s the mosque, XXXX mosque, you go this way on the same road, there’s our temple, Sikh temple. I used to live here-

Ok-

And you come down this way it’s a XXXX cinema, XXXX cinema, XXXX cinema, that’s the high road-

Uh-hmm-

That’s-that’s where the city bar used to be somewhere here, this was my road coming down XXXX so going there we said, we need a taxi… one-one to go to the other temple, so we took a taxi. The distance between those two temples we could walk there with-within five to ten minutes… We took a taxi because we had belongings, took us more than an hour. So much traffic. So much traffic in Kampala.

Compared to 1971? You can hardly have any…?

Nothing, nothing. Nothing.

Amazing.

So much traffic.

And did you go back to your former house?

Yeah, I come back to that later. Um, yes, Entebbe, Kampala, no. So, we see - I wanted to see Kampala, I wanted to see my university, my career university. I said “I want to go and see my university please, let’s go there”, um… The driver took us- it was so much traffic, he went around and we asked him “you come take us siteseeing, like, we want to see Kampala town, I want to see my factory…” Do you want anything else to drink?

Um, no, I’m good thank you.

You sure?

Thank you very much. No, I’m good.

Do you want anything?

You know, I will have a tea, is that okay?

A cup of tea?

Yes, yes, that’s okay. I appreciate that. Yes, sugar’s good, thank you, just the one.

I’ll have a glass of wat- hot water please. I don’t drink tea.

You don’t drink tea? Not even masala tea? Chai, masala chai, or…?

Rare, really rare. If someone really twist me arm…

So you’re- you’re Ugandan Asian, uh, moved to England, and you don’t drink tea? [laughs]

No, I used to drink, I’ve given up almost three - almost three years now. Only hot water. Only one cup of day.

That’s very good for you. Yeah, coffee? I can’t drink coffee. I have one a day.

You sure you don’t want something to eat?

No, I’m good thank you. I going to, sort of, push off probably in the next twenty minutes.

Okay, okay.

Um, the um, my job is very good. If I spend a day out interviewing, they give me money to buy food on the way home, so I - my girlfriend works-

Should I give you a list? My shopping list? [laughs]

No, I’ll save you some, I promise! Yeah, but my girlfriend works at Tottenham Court Road, so I’m going to go and eat at Tottenham Court Road.

I see. Alright.

Yeah. Quite alright. She’s Australian, so I don’t get her to cook.

Australian?

Australians can’t cook. They barbecue, but they don’t cook well. [laughs]

Okay, okay, okay. So you are from…?

I’m from Wolverhampton, originally. In Midlands.

You’re English.

Yeah, yeah. I’ve lived most of my life, though, adult life, I’ve lived abroad, I lived in Mexico for two and a half years, Peru, in South America, I lived for a year, um, America, I lived for about three and a half years…

What part of America?

Everywhere. Tuscon, originally, in Arizona. Then I moved to California for six months, and then in the north, I moved to New York for a year, Washington DC for a year, and then eventually, Pennsylvania, in a small coal mining town, I lived- about twenty thousand people. I was the only Englishman in there.

[phone rings, interviewee answers] 200:16

Did he want to sell something or buy something?

Canvassing call…

So let’s go back. You wanted to go back to your old university.

Yeah, I wanted to see that. XXX, he took us around, so we did this travel, this and that, and gone back. I’ve seen the place, I’ve seen the house in Kampala living, he could not even go there. There were so many rules XXX this and that, the place- development, so much development, unbelievable, in Kampala itself. But the old building, they haven’t maintained it, there were broken windows, paint, seen all the paint like that, roads, big holes… ditches, and the like. Commuters, unbelievable! Pedestrians, unbelievable. Rat race.

Just people everywhere.

Like you see on Bond Street here. It’s- that is nothing also, it’s like… it’s less- not a XXX rate, like people coming out of Wembley Stadium, that’s… certain big areas are like that, congested. So cars can’t go, they’re hooting “dee dee dee dee dee dee!”, people are walking on the road, in certain areas, that’s what the stadium XXX that I’m talking about. Too much. I mean, earlier, I mentioned Gaddafi’s influence there, he built a big, big mosque there, Gaddafi. Yeah, by other con- right behind XXX’s mosque. Massive! I was surprised to see that. That’s a big mosque there, um, that was Kampala.

Sugar?

Yes, please.

One or two?

One, please.

One.

Coming out of Kampala, going to Jinja, we used to have a town - a small location. First you come to… uh… there was a college… uh… XXXbo. As soon as you leave the town and industrial state, you come to the national stadium. Cricket, massive cricket pitch, hockey stadium, boxing XXX, and across the road, private clubs: Sikh club, next to it was the rugby club, uh… ground for- hockey grounds, football grounds, and about two miles or three miles of that, going to XXXbo College. It was a location on its own, like. Bit further - It’s all- no football pitches, those football pitches are gone… development. Buildings.

Buildings.

Development. Both sides, buildings, buildings. Round up to XXXbo was fifteen, fifteen miles or something… it was a small shanty area, like. We used to stop for doughnuts, mandazis.

Okay.

Doughnuts called ‘mandazis’.

It’s a place that’s sort of your last stop to get some food and then keep going.

At night time, when we’re going back to Jinja after a game, the boys are saying “oh, I’d like a bottle of soda” and like mandazi, that’s what the young… and so… I was surprised, when we stopped there, I asked the taxi driver “what is this place?”

Thank you so much, it looks perfect, thank you very much.

Don’t be shy.

No, no, it looks wonderful, thank you.

No prejudice, it’s white, or black?

No, no, it’s exactly as I wanted, quite, it’s perfect.

You sure?

Quite sure. Honestly, it’s quite perfect, thank you. It’s very English, isn’t it? You always find that English people are scared to say ‘yes’ or ‘no’, they’re always sort of…

No, no… when you ask for something, you better have it at your own pace.

Exactly, exactly. I think it’s the English Disease, pretending you like something when you don’t.

I don’t think the English… Maybe some, but the majority of them, yeah, no, don’t worry. The English are shy. It’s… other people will be more shy.

Yes, I mean, I think what I say is- I- I got brought up as an Irish person, not as an English person…

No, you’ve moved around, you’ve gathered a bit of everything.

Exactly, exactly. I think the biggest lesson I ever had when I was travelling was when I moved to Peru. I was only nineteen when I went to Peru, uh, so for a nineteen year old to be uh… living in a place like- Wolverhampton and Latin America are very different, you know? I went, I actually went- my first girlfriend was Peruvian, and that’s why I went there and lived with her there…

I’ve got family in Wolverhampton.

Oh really?

And friends also, that come from Africa.

They’re not related to Enoch Powell, are they? [laughs]

XXXside.

Really? So this-

Our cousins.

There’s a big Asian community in Wolverhampton, most of my friends when I grew up were Shirads, Deepaks, Patels, they were all my friends.

Right, so…

So you were going – you were on your way back to Jinja.

Yeah.

For the first time.

We were going to see – see that town, and he said “there’s no corner”. And I said “what?” It’s a town! A fully developed, modern town. There was no break from Kampala, all the buildings along side this, back, down the road, this, and right up to Lugazi, Lugazi is the half way to Jinja, Kampala is fifty miles’ journey, it’s about twenty five miles, that’s where XXX met us, XXX status. Sheikh Amata, have you heard of him?

I think Praful Patel mentioned it, is that the guy XXX the cars?

Israeli cars, yes. He’s the one I made a member of the rugby club.

XXX?

I took him too, and there was another guy called Sidra, they had motorcycle agencies, XXX or something, him. Ta- tarum Sidra. Right up to Lugazi, development. I was shocked! Shocked. Before, it was all isolated and jungle.

Like, rural area?

Yeah, becoming the other way now, rather fast towards Jinja. So… slowly and slowly, and sugar cane XXX the estate, so you can’t have development there. But we did – if you look beyond some locations, I’ve seen big locations are going, twenty, thirty houses, a church, or a school, or something like that, and I’ve seen the white girls on… cycling, you know? We crossed them after about a mile or so, we say “oh that must be the teachers or something, yeah”, so as you’re approaching Jinja, obviously halfway, after twenty five miles, after ten miles, nothing. No development, because of forest, and come near Jinja, you have started the development, uh, come, on the right you have the XXX, the XXX, and further on was a XXX textile, that was the uh, during the colonial time, I think, XXX textile. And on the other side, Madvani had his own textile, Madvani had a tractor’s factory somewhere, and then you… come to a dam. A hydroelectric dam.

Yup.

Ah… Couldn’t believe the sight, honestly. Filthy! Ditches, puddles, on the dam itself, the road. I looked on my left, the water flowed into ravines, full of green. All the branches, full of plants in there, I said “no wonder electricity is being cut off, maybe the turbines suck in all this rubbish”, who knows? So… going across, all the houses, when the dam was being erected were beautiful houses, beautiful bungalos and all that.

For the workers.

For the labour. Yeah, for the workmen, but the majority was white, they were Italian and all that, so… so, um, that township was built then, with this one… club, swimming pools and everything. And that swimming pool and club later on, Asians became members and all that… before it was a white dominance, no blacks were allowed, no Asians were allowed, nothing. So, the whole area alongside the road, and slightly, say, about that house there, not my shed, I mean the other house, but that far from the road, all a – haunted area. Nobody, no soul, nothing. Right off the stress of the road, right off the roundabout.

A ghost town.

Yeah. There’s nothing. I was shocked. And we hit onto the main area passing by my school, coming to – that’s the main road coming straight from Mr Gil’s, and uh, graves- a cemetery, straight- that one straight road that goes straight across, bypasses the main street, my- my road, where our other house was, and XXX market, taxis- taxi rank, bus stop, bus stations, straight right up to there and you follow that road, you don’t take no turning, straight into Kampala. Just one straight road. It’s only when you come to the towns that they’re XXX. So… I couldn’t believe it. The nash- sorry, Nile Park, which was the railway bridge, before that, there was a river bridge, that’s the dam here, this side is the railway bridge. For the East African Railways, that was built a long time ago.

By the British?

Yeah, so… because it was easier for relation, they cut off the traffic, motorway completely cut off later, only pedestrians and cyclists would go. So that was a park alongside – big massive green. And the other side was a golf course, my rugby club, Mr Gil’s massive house like Buckingham Palace. Yeah, so… ah, I couldn’t believe it, development. No park, very little left on the – on the side of the road development. A hotel! A big hotel, we went there, had a couple of beers, came out, gone to see my town, wherever we could go, and XXX a day trip. So, we’d seen my temple, beautiful, old… the building that my parents helped them to build. By the… alongside the temple, Mr Gil, being the tycoon, seven thousand shillings was donated by our family. That was in fifties, early fifties, that’s a lot of money. Two opening ceremonies. Mr Gil, who was a multi-millionaire, whose case had to pay a hundred thousand shillings cash for tax evading, for one of the buildings in Nairobi. One building. So he was nominated to perform the opening ceremony, but he wanted to change the name of the temple. They said “no, we can’t change the name of the temple, the temple is going to be Rangaria Temple, Rangaria Siekh Temple, from day one of its existence”. So this building also is a part of it, all this new building, built now, that will be also called the same thing. He said “if you change, I will do the donation, otherwise I won’t perform the ceremony”, last minute. So my parents said “okay, not to worry, we’ll come forward”, and they done it. So… they gave seven thousand.

And what was your emotion when you saw this temple, this temple your parents helped…

We were kids, we were kids.

No, I mean when you went back.

And having seen that, nice. Yes, it looked like when I went to see the house, I went to see the house, it was right behind. I went to see that where we could park, not many cars, let’s say one, two, three, four, five…. About eight to ten cars in front of the house, right? With ample of room left, so … Big grass- big grass there, the road, same- same all over, all over. The European town which was by the L- Lake Victoria River Nile, same. There was a pier, people used to go enjoy, you just could go right by the river bank, right up the Nile from Lake Victoria. Nothing. Nothing, you couldn’t even go down.

It was like the place had just been left to decay for forty years, just fell apart.

The roads were so bad, I went to see my own private house in the European area, nobody knew, I was, I was shocked.

I’m saying nothing.

Uh, I’ve- couldn’t even ask, coming to be in the family house, I said “I’d better”- looked at it “bloody hell”, same old doors, same old paint, forty years ago! Window panes are broken, mesh, wire mesh to keep the mosquitoes out, torn.

Was it upsetting to see that?

No, the pain was awful, I was a bit upset. I said “okay, let me go to my section”. It was three sections, three entrances. Eldest brother, the one who ran the company, the youngest, and older. Oldest, next one, next one. That’s- so I went there, knocked on the door, knocked on the door, a few minutes, no reply. I said- looked in, nothing. Come out, middle door. Knock- knocked. And I was waiting. A handicapped person come with a big stick walking, with a “[SWAHILI]!” Very rude. And I said “Jambo”, greeted him, he said “[SWAHILI]!”, he said “you, what do you want?” I said “I used to live here, this was our place. He said “I don’t know you!”, I said “no, I just wanted to see the place”. He said “get lost! Go away! Quenda, quenda! [SWAHILI], I don’t know you, go!” I said “let’s go, Aji, before he creates some more problems, let’s go.”

We’ve already been thrown out once, we can only be thrown…

My – my two mates were sitting in the taxi, he said “what happened, XXX?” I said “the guy was a bit rude” I said “leave him, let’s go”. We went around the place, my old town, then drove back to Kampala.

So it’s a different world, it seems to…

Right, it was awful, awful.

Did you get to see you old secondary school as well?

Um, when we passed, there was not much time because the taxi driver was pushing us, “I want to go back”, so… not much, but seen most of the places I wanted to see. I went to see the fac- Mr Gil’s factory, shambles. It’s still being run by Sikhs, they were the transporters who bought it from him. And they bought the entire business from him, and Mr Gil has been left only with one, uh, plywood factory in XXX, in Kenya. That’s it, that’s…

Do you… there is quite a large, um, um Asian population actually going back to Uganda, um, from India, actually, it’s not sort of…

Oh yeah, there were loads of them!

How were they treated though? Did you witness…

Well, I don’t know, I mean…

What’s the relationship between the Africans and the…

The white- the guy I spoke to, one of them, I asked, I happened to ask him, I said “now how long have you been in this country”, “I’ve been long enough”. I forget what he said, maybe ten years, or twelve years or something. I said “God, that is long enough, we must have lived here only for a short while” [laughs] They got everything ready-made, that is the difference.

It’s a different experience.

It’s become a different place, a different… atmosphere.

A different world. And politically, a very different country as well.

Entirely different, yeah. Run by the blacks, and then it was, although it was run by the blacks, dominance was Asian.

Yeah. Do you regret going back, or are you happy you went back?

Sorry?

Were you happy you went back at least once?

I was happy to go and see the place, it was a little bit of consolation. Let’s put it this way, I wanted to see what the place was like, and it’s not that bad. I mean, out of the three east African countries, it’s still doing well.

Yeah, it’s the most prosperous out of that region.

Yeah, Tanzania was good also, Tanzania. I liked Zanzibar, that was a great – the hotel we stayed in was a great, great place by the seaside, that was nice, nice.

Did you feel like you were actually going home? Did you see it as home?

Yeah, it was feeling – a similar feeling, but uh… when you see surroundings entirely different, you seem to think “ah, where the hell am I?”

Yeah. The home isn’t familiar.

You know when I was there, the whole- childhood memories come back, that we used to do this here, we used to do that, and in some places you’re just looking around going “where is that corner?”, “where were we?”, like for example, the District Commissioner’s area, was almost central to this town. The town finishes here, this was there, the post office, here, Mr Gil’s… used to be called Jinja Garage, an auto company, the Patels or something, they had it. Gill and Roberts, they were the biggest… uh, English firm there. I don’t know whether they were Scottish or English, a British form, that was it: Gill and Roberts. And they used to have a majority of the stuff. What – let’s… Scottish whiskey, or, let’s say, this is XXX only. So Dimple was a very famous whiskey then. Uh, that was famous in east Africa. You only could get from Gill and Roberts. And XXXs had their own stage bit further down the main street down there, they had their own little area, the car- car wise, we’re going back to when Austin’s Vanguards? We had all these cars.

There seem to be a big, uh… as you said before, a lot of Ugandan Asians that I speak to now, um, a lot of the things they reminisce about is the XXX cars. There seems to be quite a culture of racing.

American cars. Yeah, we used to have American cars, that was a craze first. We, in the family had Chevrolet Pickups, two, two Chevrolet Pickups.

Classic.

And um, Pontiac? Fair- Ford Fairline? And these were the American cars. And coming back to Amer- English cars, two Austins, small pickups. They used to make the small, the small pickup in the back. So, two Austins, Vanguard, uh, Bedford trucks, Bedford trucks. Dodge, that’s American again. So…

That’s as American as it gets, the Dodge!

Dodge, American. Then comes the Japanese Isuzu trucks. Isuzu cars, we had. And then the Germans, Mercedes trucks, Mercedes cars, we had. All together in the family, between four brothers, we had about fifty automobiles. Trucks and all this.

And was that the same for everyone at the time? A lot of people collected- had lots of cars?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. People had…

Because you know I go on Facebook groups where like-

The majority people didn’t need a car there. People XXX, if you are going to Kampala, for example, and someone knows you are going, they would say “I want to come, can you take us?”, and they would take them, no problem.

You would pick people up on the road?

Yeah.

Do you, um, let’s go back to England. Let’s talk about your daughter and grandchildren, and obviously, your XXX children as well. Do you um, uh, did you- I mean, Vina is very interested in the story, and she experienced the expulsion herself. What about her children, your grandchildren? Are they aware of this story that you guys went through? Are they aware of where they come from?

I think some of them have heard of all this because we’ve mentioned a few times, but the younger generation doesn’t know yet. Just the boy knows. Vina’s daughter, my granddaughter, she is now grown up, so she knows, when we talk, you know, we can visualize things, but, generally the generation still… My sons, youngest sons, two boys, one is turning fourteen now, and the other is eight, they don’t know much.

Do you think it’s important for them, uh… and for you as well for them to know, or do you think it’s time to move on from that?

I stum-… They don’t want to know nothing, you talk to them about anything, no.

Computer games, football… [laughs]

It was the same thing with these kids, my kids. You ask them “are you going to see India?”, “no”. I didn’t go. I didn’t want to go. I used to make programs with my friends and at the last minute I would opt out, I would say “no, can’t, I got tied up with banks, this bank needs this job to be finished over the holidays, this and that, so I can’t get time off”, we’re talking about a month away, in that country, so why ask if you can’t even say nothing?

Yeah, it’s not like a weekend away. I mean, do you think it’s a good opportunity with the fortieth anniversary for… you know, for people to be- perhaps let their children, their grandchildren be aware of the story?

Yeah, I mean… I think it’s…

Because I think too many people, I speak to people…

It’s okay, the kids who were born there to go back, to see if they want to. What their parents had, or those who can recoup a bit of it where they were, what they were doing, something like that, a little school in XXX. Those who can remember. But those who –like my youngest one- he wasn’t born. No sense to remember anything. He was as a free man, like… It being carried around all the time, this is it.

Yeah.

People found – I found the experience, yes, because many people are yearning to go back, but then again, I don’t know, they’re ashamed to go. Seem XXX about what may be… what may be lurking around the corner there, you see this is it.

Skeletons in the closet.

Oh yeah.

And also, you know, the reality is, it’s quite a traumatic experience. Some people went through worse things than others, but it’s still…

Yeah, but most of them… See, people who were hit hard were the businessmen who didn’t want to stay, who lost. In general, everyone, because it was an easy life, that was the utmost point, easy life, no fear, lovely weather, only the rain. I’m telling you, I was out for lunch one- one day, I used to XXX from my factory to come, because of course along the main road, right next to Radio Uganda next to my house here, so… I come home, XXX a light. Had lunch, come out, sat on the motorbike, gone hardly a hundred yards- hailstorm! That big! Within a couple of minutes, it was what… three, four inches deep by the roadside. I mean, that was only the setback for the rains, the torrential rains.

You came to England, it rains a lot here.

But this is not rain, this is a mockery of rain, ice! Ping, ping, ping, ping… People say…

A hailstone probably isn’t that big.

The rain here is so annoying, all of a sudden, the XXX trickle down a little bit, stop or you’re finished. Okay, ready again? Drip, drip, drip, throughout the day! But there, if it wants to rain, it rains, like, once. “I mean business now”. That’s it, finished, the rainclouds are gone.

“See you in a month.”

Here they sort of, they’re sort of lingering, they stop so much traffic you can’t go through.

It’s, it’s true. I mean, the thing about this place is, you can never plan a day –can you- around the rain? You know eventually it will catch you up, the rain. So let’s – this is the last question I always do it. This is quite different for you though, because not many people who have talked to me so far have actually met Idi Amin, let alone met him a few times. I often ask if you had a message to Idi, um, today, if he was sitting where I am today, what would be your message to him?

Idi Amin?

Knowing what went on in the last forty years.

Yeah, I would tell him that… whatever he had done, he might have thought it was right on- on the influence of Gaddafi, but if he would have taken his own opinion, with the right, in the right state of mind, even considering what people are saying about his light- likeness for someone’s woman, how he really loved her, and this, and wanted to marry her, and he threw Asians out of ht country on account of that, that- that was a bit naïve. To make the whole country suffer, alright? Being a little bit of a Casanova or not, he was a Casanova, so… I think that was the gravest mistake he made, to chuck Israelis and Asians out of the country within four or five months, which left him in a deep, deep, trouble. Not him, the whole country. I have been back to the country for- after forty years, I don’t think so, it’s the same old country, no matter how much progress they have done, but maintaining what they had is still deteriorating, the roads are the worst! Economy may be picking up, but… as a country, whole, I don’t think so… they’re showing any signs of international achievement.

So you think…

Like what, like what they used to have during the Asian time. I’m not trying to be prejudice, or taunting, or being a national, trying to praise, no. That is the gospel truth. The economy was flourishing, everything was okay. Although the economy may be flourishing now, people think twice before really taking any steps to invest their money in that country.

Do you think Uganda is now playing catch-up because of the forty years?

Sorry?

Do you think Uganda is now playing catch-up because it lost that…?

They are still, they are still catching up, because- with my visit, I could see, if they can’t maintain what they’ve already got on a plate, so how can they look after the way they’re going to spend money? If they free things cannot be maintained with their pockets, what they can fish out from their pockets, with the government’s money, what are they going to do? It will be limited.

And do you think he’d regret it? If he was alive today?

I think he would. He would have regretted it. He would have left the Asians there, and, and the Jews, and should not have fallen for Gaddafi’s trap, that’s my concept of this issue. People may say anything, or people- hardly many people don’t even know about this concept, about Gaddafi’s influence down this. They only think it was Madvani’s wife, which lured him, and then he became mad and threw the Asians out. Could be both together.

I think XXX, the problem with things like this is people are always looking for one answer. There’s not necessarily one answer for anything. Sometimes there’s many answers for a consequence.

So there you are.

So Aji, thank you very much, absolute pleasure.

Thank you. Anything more, or…?

I think, I think that’s enough, unless there’s anything you’d like to add. Is there anything, anything you can think of?

There’s plenty of things, we can be sitting here for days.

Of course, of course, and I think I’d probably quite enjoy that, strangely! Well, thank you. I’m going to turn this off. What I’ll do is, um…

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Ajiet Singh Sondh

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date:

Language: English

Venue:

Name of interviewer:

Length of interview: 2:32:06

Transcribed by: Sheldon Paquin

Archive Ref: 2013_esch_UgAs_11

2013_esch_UgAs_12

2013_esch_UgAs_12

OK so this is Lwam Tesfay interviewing, Mina…

Bhatt.

Bhatt, erm on… the twenty third of February two thousand and thirteen. If I can start off by telling me your, the spelling of your full name and date of birth?

Minaxi, M-I-N-A-X-I, Bhatt, B-H-A-T-T. Thirteen, four, fifty four.

And where were you born?

I was born in Lugazi, Uganda.

OK and how long have you lived in the UK?

Since seventy two, forty years.

What was your life like growing up in Uganda?

It was nice [LAUGHS]…free. Being a child we didn’t have any worries. I’d come, I grew up with a sort of, like a family business, of MEHTA group. So we all worked as one big family instead of working for my dad basically.

What did your dad do?

He was a supervisor in a sugar factory.

Did you help out aswell XXXX?

No, no, no, no.

But that’s what your family did, so your other relatives?

Well, no. We, it wasn’t our own business. We worked for, MEHTA group. XXXX owner of the sugar factory. But my dad was about fourteen when he actually came to Africa, Lugazi and he…more or less built Lugazi with MEHTA group, as part of MEHTA family.

And your mum?

She never worked, but she was a housewife in Africa.

Did you come from a large family?

Er…three brothers, three sisters.

So, where are you positioned?

Em…in the middle.

In the middle. What was school like in Uganda, did you go to like a…er, a British Indian school or…?

It was English medium, it’s called but it was all, basically owned by METHA anyway. So it was er, em… a good school, good education up to like, GCSE level here.

What was the area like where you grew up? Was there a lot of other Asian families there, or…?

It was mainly Asian and African, but Asian. It was a big, like I said a big large family living in individual houses.

Yeah.

You know.

What about after school, did you use to do things with your friends, or…? Like, I hear stories of people climbing mango trees and…

Oh yeah, we use to go out every day. We had friends living next to each other, like, education wise we use share each other’s books you know. It was a, like a, friendly environment.

Yeah.

Er…fear free environment it was.

What about celebrating, like religious festivals, did you, did the community celebrate…?

We use to celebrate all together like er…Diwali, Eid, em, Sikh and you know, festivals for XXXX. We use to celebrate as one…thing. Everybody knew each, everybody. Like even the weddings, if there was a wedding in one family, everyone went to help type of thing. So it was one large family doing everything for everybody.

So no divisions?

There was no division, there was no culture barrier, there was no…who’s who. Whether they’re rich or poor, they were all one.

What about the relationship with the…black Ugandans, black African Ugandans?

When I went to school there were few, only very few Africans. Like three I can remember.

In your class?

In my class, but majority was, other labourers who never sent their kids to school.

Because they can’t afford it or…?

Probably they can’t afford it, basically. But the schools were free, only the minimum school fees, the teaching was up to… you had to pay a hundred shillings I can remember…a year or month or something like that.

To go to the higher schools?

Yeah.

So how old were you when Idi Amin made the announcement?

Oh I think I was about twenty, at the time. Yeah. Must be twenty.

Do you remember that day when they made that declaration, did you…?

I wasn’t, I actually, I…that day, just before that, I went to India for my further education, so when I landed in Bombay the declaration was made so…

How did you feel?

Scared. You didn’t know what was happening, and you know we XXXX family. My mum, my brothers.

They were all still in Uganda?

Yeah there were all still in Uganda, my dad. So we were scared what was going to happen, to the rest of the family or XXXX, because we…didn’t know what to do. So…but em, my mum, my elder brother came here first. And then my mum, my younger brother and sister followed. My dad, because he was a supervisor, they wouldn’t let him go so he left in the middle of the night. And then, and he joined the family about six months later, and then, we were called over there. We were called back here.

So, so whilst you were in Bombay, your family came to the UK and then you followed afterwards?

Yeah.

What was it like when you first came, to UK?

I…my family was living, still living in the countryside, Huntingdon; I came to Neasd…em, XXXX Hill. That’s where my cousin…my Uncle layed…lived.

Yeah.

So he came to pick me up from the airport, my brother came from Huntingdon to pick me up and take me there. It was strange, even the English you spoke was a different dialect. People, was hard to understand the English and…but…once I went to Huntingdon I went to job centre on Monday. And…next day I got a job. And this is the way I learned my English. And then I did my secretary at college, XXXX.

What was your first job?

First job was in Tesco’s. Er…

Which one?

XXXX, ah well in Huntingdon. At that time Tesco’s wasn’t very big.

Yeah.

Sorry I just…

[INTERVIEWEE SPEAKS TO FRIEND]

No problem.

Don’t worry. Em…so first job in…Tesco?

Yeah.

What were you doing, what were you doing like er…?

Yeah….erm, shelf filling stuff like that.

Do you remember the first day at work?

Yeah yeah yeah, but you know I was very lucky because I was in the countryside people were very very helpful.

Yeah.

And then I had started working, em…my school holid….you know once I started my secretary at college I started working for em… firm. Which use to help me out with clerical, kind of jobs. And…then afterwards, I went to work for M-O-D.

What would er…we’ll, can I talk to you a little bit about that, but the…the people in Huntingdon, what were they like? Cos I’m sure at that time, a lot of other Ugandan Asians and Asians…

Not in that area…

No in that area?

Ya, there were only about…one, two, three families there. and there were absolutely friendly. Absolutely friendly. They went out of their ways to help.

Can you remember any specific neighbours, or people that were really helpful?

Yeah yeah, my next door neighbours she was very, very, very…her name was Anne, she was very, very helpful. She got me this, as I said job, part-time job. And …always, they were help…helping us out. You know like, because we didn’t have a car or…you know, take us to the shop and XXXX, showing us where we could get stuff and…like er, helping us out with, where to get the help…from, or where you need to go for doctors, stuff like that, which generally you need.

And if someone, you know, is helping you, in the very beginning stages it’s a big help. Something small to them, but…

Yeah yeah. We always like, even now, my brothers and that still in touch with them…today, because they’ve been good neighbours and they’re still there.

So your job at the ministry of defence, how, how long did you work there for?

Until I got married, so quite a long time…

What were you doing?

I was secretary.

How did you get the job?

Em, I just applied, through er, through job centre.

Was that in the city?

No, no in Huntingdon.

Huntingdon. And what was that like working there? Because you went from Tesco to, Ministry of Defence, it’s a bit of a change?

Yes, it was big change but then I did my secretary at college. So I, I qualified as a secretary.

Yeah.

So I needed somewhere where I could use my…er skills. So I went and worked for… I got a job, it took them long because I had to get my…em, status cleared. Like I wasn’t a criminal…

Yeah.

And all that, my parent’s status…and especially, I came from Uganda so there…was nobody there that could vouch for me. Basically. They found a teacher who use to teach me, and they vouched for me kinda thing.

As like a reference…?

Reference, that I wasn’t lying. I was actually in Uganda, Lugazi as they call it. Because for them, even though they knew, they wouldn’t get much response from the country. We knew that somebody if they got it, would be a jackpot kind of thing.

Were you still thinking about Uganda, more or less, as soon as you left…or? Did you want to go back home?

I…want to go back yes, just to see what it is, my birth place basically. Where I was born, you know, how it is, and how does it look. Stuff like that, but I don’t have any more attachment now, probably because I was a child, when I came here. Most of my life I’ve been here so I don’t have that attachment. Plus, my, I don’t have my family there. If I had my family there it would be a different thing. I don’t have anybody, I want to Uganda I think…

Are most of them here?

All of them.

All of them?

So…you don’t have that attachment. We don’t have, we didn’t own any properties as such because, we use to work for MEHTA group so they gave us, houses and all that. None of us have anything we want to go back to claim or anything, we have…because we are now settled here as you see, we don’t wanna go. I just want to go, just to see where I was born, but em, I want to take my kids just to show them where I was born. But not…that…that…attachment. I feel I’m Ugandan. I am Ugandan, and I come…you know, I…

You’re proud to be Ugandan…

Ugandan. But em…we even had once, er…organisation, you know…Lugazi get together.

Yeah. So you were saying you didn’t have any property there so you don’t really feel attached?

It’s not…I wouldn’t say a, property as such but I don’t have family. If I had family there then I would definitely go back. Like say if I had my parents still there, or my brothers…or my sisters…or somebody I would go back. But because none of them there.

Nobody?

Nobody there. I don’t have a reason, that reason to go back. The only reason I would go back is just to see the country I was born in and brought up in, you know. My childhood basically.

Do you, do you speak with your children about em…all your XXXX?

Oh yeah yeah, my kids know, because we always like, we talk about how we use to do things, where we use to go, what we use to play, you know like er, we use to have religious festivals, what we use to do there. You know like because, we use to like, it was like, like here, you’ve got cinemas here, there, discos where ever you can go? It was a small town, you didn’t have that much choice but you had to go one place. And er… either you were supervised by adults all the time, whatever you were doing, erm…

It was very different?

Here it’s very, very different. That’s why we’ve got more morale, or more values for adults…than the kids here basically.

And where did you meet your husband?

Here.

Here? And where was he working?

He is, when I met him he was working for er…um…Department for Employment.

OK.

Ya.

So you whilst you were working at the Ministry of Defence, he was working at the…

Department for Employment, yeah.

And did he come from Uganda or was he…

No, no, no, he’s from Dar es…he was born in Dar es Salaam but he was from India.

Did he leave around the same time? Because a lot of…

I think, they, he left in seventy nine. He left, seventy…five. And we left in seventy two. He left a couple of years after us.

And does he have like a similar, to er, Tanzania or…?

No doesn’t have any attachment he was only one or two when he left Dar es Salaam, so for him, Dar es Salaam is just a country he was born in, nothing, no attachment at all. Er…he’s got more attachment to India than here, because he was brought up er… in India. Sorry…

[LONG PAUSE]

What was your time like in India, when you first went there, because if you… were born in er, Lugazi…?

You see, I …I … I basically didn’t do any education, or anything, all for me…

[INTERVIEWEE TALKS TO FRIEND]

… it’s ok. For me was to, look around and…enjoy myself basically.

In India?

In India. [LAUGHS]. Me and my other cousin, he was there and none of us…we went for education but most of us, because of what happened in Uganda, we got stuck. So we stayed with em, my cousin, cousin sister’s house. and er…all we use to do we go out every day, go meet other Ugandan students who, you know, they came before us but they were actually in universities there. So we went and…stayed with them and you know…

Socialising?

Socialising until we got the chance, both of us, and we both came back together.

Yeah.

Me and my cousin and like, he’s elder brother was actually in education in Bengal so we went to see, stay with him. And you know, things like that so…we had more of er…going everywhere but deep down, because we was young aswell, you didn’t know whether, what was happening to you. Because like none of us, even though are parents kept saying, we’ll sort you out but you’ve got to wait, the uncertainty, there was uncertainty, what was happening. And er…things like, what would happen tomorrow, what will…if they call us or… if we can’t afford to…make us study…there was, there was, such a lot of uncertainty.

How long were you in India for?

Em...about six, seven months.

So not too long.

Not too long.

But I guess everyday that you were there, you didn’t, you didn’t know what was happening.

We didn’t know. When we came, like obviously my mum and dad, they came without anything. I mean I started working for Tesco’s, whatever salary I got I use to spend each and every penny and get food, like blanket one day, pillows the next day, you know things like that.

So you were talking about how you use to give your salary from Tesco to your parents and help them get like, pillows and…

Yeah. Like I use to go and get you know, shop, you know, because obviously we came with nothing, we didn’t had, enough essentials so you had to go and buy everything and like everything XXX first you need something that will warm you up. My salary and my brother’s salary basically went on my…stuff for house.

Do you remember what you use to get paid?

Ah can’t remember but it wasn’t much.

Yeah.

But at that time, things weren’t very expensive either. I remember milk was just a penny or something, and er…so it wasn’t, very expensive.

What was your brother doing?

My brother initially he…er, when he came he started working, er…in a factory somewhere. Then after, went, we all settled down he actually finished his education as a civil engineer.

And how did your… how did your mum and your dad cope, when they, when they came to Britain?

Em, my mum still can’t speak English but she was a good, er, hand communicator. So you’ll, she would go to the shop and say, show people what she wanted and how many, she wanted. Because it was a small town, people would help, you know in a…near a small green grocers we use to go to, and stuff like that. And when I was working, I would get other things which I needed from em, on the way, Thursdays and Saturdays when I use work. First I initially I worked full time in Tesco’s so I use to get.

[INTERVIEWEE SPEAKS TO CUSTOMER].

But then afterwards, XXXX part time when I started my education. My parents was a strong believers in education, so he made sure all us even though we were struggling, had an education.

And, what about your dad, how did he find settling into Britain?

He…took in his stride as it came. I guess, like er, he came from a, when he was fourteen in he came, he started working so all his life he was working.

Do you know what he was doing when he came to Uganda, when he was fourteen, was he working on the railways or was he in the factory?

No, no he was working in a restaurant in India when they spotted my dad. You know the Mehta group must have came there and they said er, ok do you want to come with us, to cook for them, my father actually went to Africa with them as a cook.

And what part of er, India, is your family originally from?

Gujarat.

Gujarat. So he came alone, and started his life there and…met your mum and had you guys. Do you think that he had, ever feel like he missed Uganda, do you think?

I think so. I think so, because being in countryside, you didn’t have anybody to communicate to and stuff like that, but afterwards, you know, er, you get use to it but initially it was hard. You know being like, big family, there was always somebody there. So…life XXXX, different things.

Cos there's, there’s like, there’s a large, obviously Asian community, er Ugandan Asian community in Leicester and other parts of London, when you guys were living in Huntingdon, how did you cope with like, not having your, your, normal Asian foods, your spices?

Well initially we didn’t know. One day my brother and my younger brother were…went out to do some shopping and they were carrying, like, blankets and stuff back. And…there was another Asian family who lived in this country longer than us. And they spotted another Asian, they stopped the car, and said er…are you from Ugand…er…they say er…do you need help? And my brother said, yeah, we wouldn’t mind you know. Er, and they asked us, in English they started talking initially because they didn’t know what…

Yeah.

…background we were from. And it happened that they were gujarati aswell , and they kept XXXX my brother, at home, and my mum obviously being a hostess she made tea and that, they started chatting and then they said, you won’t get any Asian food here but , there's all like all like, town, like London, or…Huntington where you can get it. and er, it’s a XXXX, when we go we get XXXX for you. And because my cousin settled in London, he…gave, he knew where you could get Asian foods, my brothers use to come down and XXXX, and get food back. But like chapatti flour and that, they use to make do with er, bread making flours and stuff like that. But initially, after that they found this person, and whenever he use to go, he use to bring stuff, heavy stuff for us because we didn’t have a car.

What about celebrating like Diwali, or any religious festivals, in Huntingdon?

XXXX. well there was no such celebrations, as I said three families. So we use to get together on Diwali days , you know just, and light some candles and stuff like that, just to make it a little, er… something, er, different and er, all, we use, all three families were together in one place and did things, and then, next day, you’ll go to somebody else’s house. And then we, kinda celebrate that way.

Yeah. As a community, even though it was a small community you still come together.

Yeah.

Were they from Uganda aswell or were they…

Same town as us.

Really?

It happened, one of them were from same town as us, one from Kampala, so…there was like three, er…families.

You were saying there was like a Lugazi, like community, that you were involved in or set up.

Yeah.

What was that?

About few years back we decide that er, all the people from Lugazi have a get together. And we all organised it and had a sort of like a dinner and dance kind of thing. People who left Uganda, Lugazi, like even my classmates and stuff like that we haven’t seen them for ages. Some of them you do, we still have a contact, some you don’t. and we sent it out to as many people we knew, we first organised a sort of like an address book, we can actually write to people, so like asking do you know of anybody in Lugazi, you know like…

This is when you were in Huntingdon, or in London, here?

No no, after that, here, about a few years we did it about, say….seven eight years ago we did it.

And is that, you and some of your friends, family or like, was there…

It was er, a friend of mine and I, and there was somebody else, about four us did it. And we started ringing people round, and because I had a business sort of, I could, you know, people living in Lugazi, I could get people say, oh can you give the address of anybody else, you know, kind of thing, built up a group. And then, we send everybody out. We had a good, turnout believe it or not. People did turn out with their kids, friends, you know…er, husbands and wives, who were not from Lugazi, and sort of like, we made it, but we made it on a wrong day, it was a bank holiday weekend, so…some people had already booked their holidays and stuff like that.

You had a good turn out?

We had had a good turnout. We had a good turnout. We had about…three hundred people.

Wow.

That’s not bad at all.

How did you fund it?

We asked people for the money. At er, that would cover the cost of the hall and the food, and the, soft drinks, and er…

The End

Transcript not to be used without copyright

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Minaxi Bhatt

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: 23/02/13

Language: English

Venue: Hounslow West, Middlesex

Name of interviewer: Lwam Tesfay

Length of interview: 26:57

Transcribed by: Lwam Tesfay

Archive Ref: 2013_esch_UgAs_012

2013_esch_UgAs_12b

2013_esch_UgAs_12b

Door activities…You know, had to do something. And then, you know people were happy to pay. Because they wanted to meet other people they hadn’t seen for ages.

Do you remember, did you have, people from your class there?

Oh yeah yeah, quite a lot.

Yeah.

In fact, I’m quite in touch with quite a few of my class mates anyway.

Yeah? Even now?

Even now. So I've got quite a few, some of them has gone to Canada. One of them is in America, but we still like, in touch. And er, one, couple of them are in Hounslow, and…one in, reading, and Leicester, so we sort of like, we wanted to get together, you know, class, our class, em…get together.

Yeah.

Unfortunately, we couldn’t do it because er, one way or the other we couldn’t make it. One makes it, the other one can’t.

Yeah.

…so one of them…never, materialised. Every, actually, one of our aims was to all of get together, even from people from Canada, America…

That’ll be nice.

Yeah. One, one event we wanted to organise it. But because I’ve got business, I’m, I’m XXXX tied down, tied down with families, and stuff like that, we can’t drop it. And now you know, with the business it’s very difficult.

How long has this business been opened?

Twenty six years.

And it’s always been this location? Cos it’s very popular, even though I’ve just been here ten minutes, XXXX customers, and I was walking around, there’s a lot of African, products aswell…that’s why I thought maybe XXXX Uganda…

I've got quite a lot of Ugandan er, products here aswell.

Was it like that in Uganda as well?

Uganda, we had a small shop. You being XXXX, a Student, we never cared about shopping.

You don’t look, yeah, of course yeah.

But em, em…it was a small shop. They use to give a list to the guy, and they use to just send stuff at home and at end of the month they send you the bill.

It’s quite handy. [LAUGHS].

But I get, one good thing about most of the Ugandans, I would say about eighty Ugandans, or…you know, they work, they are hardworking, they, what they, happened was people realised that they came with nothing, they had to build themselves up. So, whatever the culture, whatever the cir…circumstances, like people who has never even cleaned the floors started doing anything and anything they can do it. So…all, majority of Ugandans, have built themselves up. And like, from nothing, which they came with nothing, but some of, you know most of them are well settled. You know, you’ll find few families, but most of them are well settled, their, they all made sure their kids got an education, they, kids are in good positions, stuff like that. You know, like if we had everything, then I don’t think any of us would have bothered to, work or stuff like that, but because we came with nothing and we like…most of were, even ashamed of taking benefits. They’ve decided right, hard work was the only way out.

Was that the attitude, that, they, you think, you had as em…you had even in Uganda or you think just because when you came here, that was, it pushed, it pushed that value more?

I think more here, because I guess, er, you know, em…there we, you know, like for me, I was, student, so…how my parents coped, it didn’t bother, me, because I…for them , it wasn’t my problem. When I came here, and I know my parents were struggling, and I knew, we had to live with our means, we all started working, which ever work we got. Whilst we’re working we, er, summer holidays, you know, all of us worked…to b ring in the money, to get back to…normality. And I think the value of money become more. Because there was no…

When you came here?

Yeah.

So how, do, was there any time it was, you found it very difficult, having to start work straight away? Because you were obviously quite young and you see the, perhaps the other young people you were, were probably out socialising em…

I didn’t even have chance to think about that.

Yeah.

You know because like, em…it was more important to get the money into the house, than was er…socialising. And…because of our background, like socialising, you know, is nowadays, you think about socialising but then, we you came, em…there was no such thing.

It wasn’t a priority?

Priority was different. Completely different.

Can you remember like, any like cultural, clashes that you might have had when you was at college or…

I think only once I had somebody…in a…going, I was going through an estate to go to my Uni. One guy called me ‘Paki’, and I …at that time you can actually turn around and hit the guy and nobody would said anything. He called me ‘Paki’, and I turnaround and I, I grabbed him by the collar and said never, ever call me that. And actually the people came out and supported me than supported him.

So other white English people came?

Yeah. You know.

What was that like, it must’ve been a bit weird because you know, you’re not from Pakistan but they associate any Asian?

…any Asian from Pakistan, that s what they do anyway. That’s, you know, and I guess, obviously they…they didn’t want any Asians, and that in the their town but then XXXX afterwards, you know you make friends and…even the guy who called me ‘Paki’, he turned around and he was different.

Really?

And you know, you know like, they don’t know the difference and I guess, he, you know, his best mate, use to come to our house, basically everyday

[LAUGHS]

With my brother, and er, things like that so…

So they, slowly change once they get used to you and…?

XXX positive attitude I guess, but culture difference will be there, whenever but you know…I, touched wood I’ve never had it, as bad as some people would. You know, because when I use to work for ministry of defence I was, working for Americans and they have different kinds of people there.

You mean the Americans attitudes, towards em…towards XXXX?

It was XXXX different at all, you know it was even better.

Oh OK.

Because the…obviously, XXXX they can’t.

You were saying about the Americans.

Yeah, you know because we, like in America, management you get all kinds of different backgrounds, people, working…so it was like, I…I was employed by XXXX, working for American airways so…I just sort of like mixed, a lot. When I got married I worked for education. So you…was like in an environment that er, mixed race…people. I've never worked in an environment where there were mixed race people. So…now, XXXX.

Yeah.

…culture of people.

I guess maybe it was only you was working with em, in Tesco, in Huntingdon it was only the time, em it was…

Yeah, you know I had a good friends.

Yeah.

I made good friends there. And they you know, even my English wasn’t very good at that time. The…the people explained to me… and taught me to speak and, get the different er…ways of saying things like, crisps instead of chips.

Yeah.

Stuff like that, so…it was a different…

Yeah.

But they taught me kind of thing. So I, it never, I never felt I was left out. You know.

Going back to Uganda what was like your most favourite , em…memorable experience…there, can you remember like, as a…from your childhood?

After so many years.

[LAUGHS]. My memory is…I still remember the house I was born in, XXXX

What was your house like? Cos I…em, from what XXXX.

It was a Miranda in the front.

So it was round?

No, no, no…

I mean like the houses are…

It was a square miranda.

Yeah.

And then it’s the front room, and there’s a big Miranda, big massive store room and a kitchen and the bedrooms at the side. And the at the backroom there was a big massive, backyard and a store room and then at the back it was the house. Em…you know the house keeper’s house.

Did you have a maid, or like a servant?

Yeah. He was with us since, he was seven or eight.

Was he er, African? Er Ugandan, African?

Yeah.

What was his name?

Er, Jo…oh god. Juma!

Juma?

[LAUGHS]. His wife’s name was Theresa.

Did they live with you?

Yeah.

Did they have children?

Yeah.

What were they like?

Very friendly.

Yeah?

He was like part of our family, because he basically, he grew up with our family.

Yeah.

So.

So now its em, its forty years now since…em, since Idi Amin…

Yeah, yeah.

Expelled the Asians. How do you think it should be remembered…the experience Ugandan Asians in the UK.

Er I don’t think anybody remembers him, everybody hates him more than anything.

Yeah.

If he didn’t do it, things would have been different for Uganda, you know, because Asians, were the hard work…Ugandans identity was Asian. You know, like er, now it’s coming up again but its majority, Asians has gone back there asking the XXXX to come back , but even the Ugandans Africans hate them, hate him. Basically because he, he ruined the country more than, because it was prosperous country.

It’s the reason why everybody was attracted to Uganda.

Yeah.

What about the contribution of all the, all the Ugandan Asians because like you said, a lot of the ones, the majority of the ones, that have been here they’ve worked hard for a long time and that’s been recognised a lot in the press, and in like parliament.

Yeah, yeah most, most of the…er I know, quite a lot of people they are tax payers so you know. None of us, like, were ashamed to even take a benefits so, and they, open businesses, some of them are bigger than us, you know they actually are doing, er, bringing money into the country you know, em…other way round. Most of our, employed people so, XXXX paying tax. I guess most of us, like some are better than us, some are er, smaller, bigger than us. But either working or whatever they all paying…

Tax.

Taxes. So they are actually contributing, one way or the other to the country’s economy, whether it’s not very good at the moment

[LAUGHS].

[LAUGHS].

Do you think, do you think, more people know, need to know about the story of Ugandan Asians?

Oh there are some who’s done extremely well and they’re um…doing quite a lot for this country, so…I’m sure, I can, you know, there’s a few people who’s done very very well.

[PAUSE].

[INTERVIEWEE SPEAKS TO CUSTOMER].

So in terms of home, I know earlier you said you feel you’re Ugandan?

Yeah.

But in terms of home, where you feel you know…?

Britain…is here.

Specifically Hounslow?

Er…

Do you live around this area?

No, my business is here.

[TELEPHONE RINGS].

Yeah.

But Streatham is where my home is, but yes definitely. Em…Great Britain, I would not call… I love Uganda, I would not call, home, now. Because I've moved away from it, for so many years.

[INTERVIEWEE ANSWERS PHONE].

OK thank you Mina.

OK thanks.

The End

Transcript not to be used without copyright

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Minaxi Bhatt

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: 23/02/13

Language: English

Venue: Hounslow West, Middlesex

Name of interviewer: Lwam Tesfay

Length of interview: 14:20

Transcribed by: Lwam Tesfay

Archive Ref: 2013_esch_UgAs_012b

2013_esch_UgAs_13

2013_esch_UgAs_13

Ok, can I ask you for your full name please?

Ashifa Dhillon.

Can you spell that for me please?

A S H I F A Dhillon, D H I double L O N.

That’s perfect. And can I ask you date of birth, if you don’t mind giving me that?

Well, I’m still sixty five young [laughs].

[laughs].

Fifteen, nine, nineteen forty seven (1947).

Forty Seven (1947). And I’m still twenty nine [laughs].

Xxxx.

Um, can you tell me the place of birth, where you…

Masaka, Uganda, Africa.

And where is that in Uganda, geographically speaking, is it in the North, the South…

Uganda is in er, er, South East Uganda, South East, oh gosh! [laughs].

Well, not Uganda itself, Masaka the actual place, where in terms of Uganda was that?

Masaka is, er, South I think, I’m not sure.

In the South, ok xxxx. Um, can I ask um, whether you could possibly describe Masaka to me, um, you know, what kind of environment did you get brought up in?

Ok, er, my, when my dad was born in nineteen oh six (1906) in India, er, he came to Africa and then he settled in Masaka. When he settled in Masaka it was only a small village, and he used to tell us that there were no toilets. There was no water and er, there were very, very few people and one or two Asians here, he was one of the, one of the three Asians. And I’m one of eleven children, and all eleven children are born in Masaka.

So you’re quite a big family?

Yeah, big family, yes.

So he went from being only three Indians, to xxxx [laughs].

That’s right, but later on there were loads. And um, there were three schools, one, one of them was XXXX Khan School, Indian School, and er, public school. There were three schools there. Um…there were a lot of different communities er, such as the smiley’s, er, the Guajarati’s, the Hindus, er, Muslims, Sikhs. And we also grew up a lot with mixed race, because a lot of Asian people when they went there, during the time of the railways, they got married to black Africans. And we grew up with their children as well.

Ok, so it was quite a mixed community?

It was a very mixed community. It was quite nice, it was very, very nice, it was like a little home to everybody. Everyone knew everyone, and we could drop in to each others houses, but one thing I remember, if we did anything naughty, any of the neighbours would tell us off. And our parents would appreciate that. Er, they would appreciate that very much. And they would er, sort of, make sure that we listened to our neighbours, or whoever complained about us, because they meant well for us.

Hm hm, so a real community there…

It was, yes.

People seemed to look after eachother?

They did, yes, they did. And, we had to respect everybody, I mean growing up with er, er, different faiths, with different cultures, with the different er, backgrounds, we were taught to respect everyone who was older than us. And today, I know certain people who were my mum’s age and my dad, and my dad’s age, I didn’t know their names, I used to call them uncle and aunties. But I knew who they were.

Of course. So, tight knit community.

Very tight knit.

And er, can you perhaps um, describe um, sort of the layout of the town, was it I don’t know, you said it was quite a small town…

It was a small town, it had three streets, or four streets. Er, when I was growing up, now I understand it’s quite a big town. And it had a post office, it had er, Barclays Bank, it had Gringley’s (?) Bank, um…it had a big ground, but what amazed me was, and I used to question my father and he had no answer for that. Or maybe he didn’t want me to know, want us to know, they, they were three areas, er, there was er, European area, only Europeans stayed there. And then there was Asian area, only Asians stayed there. And then there were African areas, and these were the areas that were really started by the British.

So the British obviously had…

Segregated them.

They segregate society.

Segregated society. And this was in that little town and I used to wonder why they have got this area, why their houses are so different than ours. Um, and it used to amaze me, because they used to be a lot of teachers who were inspectoring teachers, who used to come in to the schools from maybe er, Puerto Rica, Goa, which is in, Portuguese Goa, and from Scotland, we used to have a lot of teachers from Scotland. Xxxx I used to er, um, they used to do Geography, History with us. So it was quite er, er, different way of …

Yeah, quite a unique upbringing.

Yes, very unique. Anyway, it was very good…

And anyway, let’s talk about school…

Yes, it was very good.

Um, did you, um, what did you do um, in terms of er, did you go to the local primary school obviously, or…?

I went to the XXXX Khan School, and er, because my father was quite rich, I remember, when I was seven, eight, nine years old, at ten o clock we used to have the guy who used to work with us at home, um, and we used to call them servants then, which is quite sad [laughs], I wouldn’t do it now. Um, they used to bring tea and er, biscuits and some sandwiches for us, sandwiches or Indian sort of er, things to eat at lunch time. And they used to bring it to the school for us, so we used to sit and eat. And I used to share that with my friends as well, because some of my friends couldn’t er, they, they wouldn’t have anything for ten o clock, but we used to be lucky enough, we used to have this guy come and give us some food. Um, in the school, I was very naughty. I don’t think I am very clever, I was very clever at all [laughs].

Surely not! [laughs].

I remember many times the teachers used to make me um, they used to make us stand on the chairs if you were naughty, if we didn’t do our homework. And er, but I, education was not my…er, subjects xxxx. I was very good at sports. I used to play hockey, by the time I was thirteen, fourteen, I was school captain of hockey, I was school captain of netball. And, I used to play um, basketball…um, later on, a lot of sports as well, later I was um, er, we had schools competition under the age of sixteen, which was held in Kampala. And, I was xxxx, first, I came first in the school competition in Uganda under sixteens.

And what event was that in?

Eh?

What event was that in?

It was long jump.

Long jump?

Yeah, it was long jump.

It seems to me, I mean, through some of the interviews I’ve done already…

Yeah.

It seems that it was quite, in terms of recreational activity, sport was very big amongst the Asian community…

It was, it was very big. My, my younger brother, my elder brother used to play um, cricket for the Uganda team during his days. And I think he’s born in nineteen twenty nine (1929) or something like that, during his days he was the captain of the, one of the teams as well. And he was well known for fours and six.

What, he was a big hitter?

Yeah, he was a big hitter, he, and er, and later, my other brother used to play a lot of golf, anyone xxxx xxxx.

And these are very British sports aren’t they?

These are very British.

Yeah.

And it was British protected wasn’t it.

Xxxx.

Yeah.

And um…

The influence was there, because, Asian cultures were there, they played very important part, but the Western influence was there. To a certain extent.

Of course. And, let’s go, you mentioned, let’s go back to the actual Asian community, you mentioned it was er, although a very different and mixed community, different obviously regions, different um, ethnic groups, and also different religions as well…

Yeah.

And cultural groups. Um but despite that, it seems to me, a lot of people have painted the picture, and you have yourself, you suggested that it was still quite a tight knit community regardless of the differences. Um, did you celebrate eachothers cultural events, religious…

We celebrated er, in our family, um, I remember when we used to have, I come from a Muslim family, and er, when we used to have Eid, my mother used to prepare lovely plates, quite big er, stain, stainless steel plates, and used to put all different kinds of um, food in there. And mainly it was, sweet rices, they used to cook and things like that. And er, of course the Indian sweets, those, and we used to take it to our neighbours who were Hindus, and our friends who were Hindus and Guajarati’s, and we were, this was done because our parents wanted us to do it. And vice versa at Diwali time we used to exchange the same kinds of foods from the Hindu families. We used to play Gurpa with them, we used to, that is why even now, um, we, we mix quite a lot with the, the Guajarati’s, and er, the Sikhs and Hindus and the different communities, because of that upbringing. And respect them, and it, I respect their cultures. And in fact, it’s because of living in this communities I speak, Punjabi, Hindi, Urdu, Guajarati, er, very xxxx Guajarati, I speak Kachee (sp?) that’s a dialect as well. And I think my Swahili’s fading, well I think I speak good English. And also, I do a little bit of sign language interpreting in this country.

How wonderful!

Communicate with deaf people.

Yeah. And I’ve seen your capacities working with people with disabilities…

Yes, yes.

And did um, you mentioned Swahili there, and I think this leads on to an interesting topic, and you talked about the um, the relationships between different groups within the Asian community as a whole, can I ask you, you did mention servants, and perhaps at school. What kind of um, in what capacity did you actually spend any time with the African community, perhaps at home or in school, where, when…

When my, yeah…

Did the two communities mix?

When my brothers and sisters were growing up, my edlest sister, who is about fourteen, fifteen years older than me, she was studying only Guajarati, because there was only Guajarati in schools. And later on, my elder sisters, Guajarati and a bit of English, and then later on, my other family, er, sisters and brothers, they learned English and Urdu in schools, because Urdu started coming in. And when I was growing up, it was Africanisation, so er, sixty two (1962), was independence, so we um…yeah, it was quite um, we, we started er, the Africans started joining the schools as well, but there were not that many. Not that many in the schools at that time. They had, another school which was called Wala Hill School in Masaka. And er, my father is the founder member of that school. I’ve got a photograph of that as well. Er xxxx.

Oh wow!

And he used to work very hard for the school, for the African school, because he felt er, being a Muslim that er, they needed to be educated. And I, and also that to be educated in er, religious studies which was er, learning the Koran as well. And for Koran, they needed to understand other things. So, they basically started that school. And my mother, as a child I remember, she used to go in to the Tambas, Tambas were the African little towns and little farms, she used to go in there trying to bring children out to go to the schools. So they worked quite hard towards that.

So that’s interesting, because um…

Definitely segregation.

Yeah, well that’s the thing, I mean, it seems to be from people I’ve spoken to that the very few, let’s face it [laughs], but also, I mean Yasmin Brown for example, she…

Yeah, she would say that.

She would argue that there was a lack of integration, it was pure segregation…

Of course there was!

And other people have painted a picture of perhaps an over romanticised exaggeration where, actually the two communities get on. Did you ever sense any tension at all, perhaps pre-, pre-independence or post independence, between the Asians…

There was all, because I now look back and I think, er, the African com, community we, er, there was a kind of a fear, um for the girls to go out on their own, you know, or, going out late at night. There was something that the parents told us to keep away from the African community. And that could be cultural, or whatever, er lack of education whatever you may call it. But there definitely was segregation, yes. But when I was growing up we had er, one young black guy coming to school with us. And I think I was the first one to make a move to talk to him. And maybe I was, that is why [laughs], I married outside the community as well!

So you were always a bit of a pioneer! [laughs].

Yeah, xxxx.

Um, so you, you probably sensed that there was, er, I mean would you agree that everyone kind of knew their position in society?

Yes. I agree that. Everybody, everybody knew where they come from, who they are, and er, of course we were second generation born there, my mother was born there as well, and my grandmother went there at a very young age. So all we knew was Uganda as our home. And er, our place was within the community, that we respect everybody and we were um, respect all the olders, who no matter what background they are from. My uncle, er, his name was Issac. He was not educated, he educated himself in English, and he, um, because his father died at a very young age, I think he was eleven or so, and his mother brought them up, but er, he educated himself and he was very good friend of a couple of ministers. And because my uncle used to live er…we had a house which had about eight rooms on the top and eight at the bottom, and my uncle was not that well to do, and so he used to live downstairs. I don’t like saying this but, it is a family and we were always there, we never knew. We never knew that er, my uncle was not well off, or anything, we just knew as a part of us. That’s all we knew. And he used to have his, couple of ministers used to come, and he used to write speeches for them. Yeah. And I remember one of them used to be Benedict XXXX, I think he was the judge, now I’m talking about my young age, which is what fifty years ago [laughs], I’m talking about when I was twelve, thirteen, fourteen, what I remember. And he was a very good friend of his.

Interesting.

And he was, he was a magistrate as well, and I think later on, he was killed by er, I don’t know the fact but, something happened to him.

Hm mm.

Um, because my uncle was very, very upset and he said, look what’s happened. To him.

Hm mm. Yeah. And I mean, so it seems, so there was some interaction between the African community and the Asian community but…

Xxxx…

Only at certain…

At, males, with the males only. Men only.

Right.

Yeah. It was very male dominated.

And you said there was a fear for the, the, sort of the female members of the Asian community, do you think that was, erm, obviously we said it could be cultural or it could be religious, do you think it was er, also the fact that they, you were two very different communities culturally, because it seems to me the Asian community was almost quite conservative perhaps compared to the European xxxx, the um, Africans. Would you say you were more, sort of, conservative in the way you acted and stuff?

Definitely. Definitely, we were more conservative [beeping sound]. Switch this off, it’s my husband. Soti? Do you think I can finish here…er, this is Greig.

Hello, pleased to meet you, how you doing?

Greig was, that’s my husband.

[Husband: pleased to meet you, hello].

Er, Greig works er, with the…

Yeah, I work for Eastside Community Heritage…

[Husband: xxxx]

Yeah, we’re doing a project with Prafel Patel and the Indian Overseas Trust at the moment.

[Husband: ok].

Hence the fact I’m taking your wife away from you for an hour or so [laughs], if that’s ok!

[Husband: xxxx]

Can I sit here or can I go - you want to sit here?

[Husband: xxxx carry on]

Are you sure?

[Husband: yeah, yeah].

I appreciate that…

Because they are er, interviewing.

[Husband: well, carry on!]

Thank you very much!

Saying that, my husband, we used to be the er, the rally driver of the er, he used to drive, a rally driver in Uganda.

Oh really? That’s quite a big sport wasn’t it, rally driving?

Yeah, it was a big sport as well.

Yeah, yeah.

I was going to come to that and then, he also played er, rugby. Again, that’s very British.

Yes, of course, yes. And er, Idi Amin was quite a rugby player apparently.

Yes, he was. Xxxx as well yeah.

He certainly enjoyed it. But I think he thought he was good at everything [laughs]. Xxxx.

And he was arrested xxxx.

Really? That’s something we can definitely talk about xxxx…

We’ll talk about that, yeah. We’ll talk about that.

Lots of people have many anecdotes about Amin it seems…

Hmmm?

Many people have anecdotes of personal dealings with Mr Amin, especially those in Jinja it seems. Um, so we’ve talked about the relationships between the Asian community and the African community, and also between Europeans as well. Um, can I ask whether after um, it seems to me a lot of people almost believe that Idi Amin created this tension, but a lot of people actually suggested there was a tension before, actually after er, independence. Did you notice a change in attitudes of the African community towards the Asians after independence? Did you see a change or…

Er…I think I was too young, but, what I heard [phone rings] from family members…[phone ringing then stops]. What I heard family members talking, um, is that when Abota came in, and when there was war in India against Pakistan, at that time er, a lot of er, Hindu and Guajarati families, they collected all their gold and they sent it to…this is what I remember from families talking. Um, send it to India. And after that Abota actually said “you are Ugandans, you shouldn’t be sending things out”. And, the changes started from there, yes.

And Idi Amin perhaps just added to it?

No, I don’t know whether that’s true or not. This is what I remember people told me.

Well again, it goes back to we’re here to measure your memories, not necessarily the accuracy of them. And um, in terms of, um, Amin’s actual declaration, let’s fast forward a little bit from Aboti to Amin when he came in to power. Um, where, can you remember where you were when he made that declaration…?

I was in Kampala, yes. I was in Kampala. Um, I went to work, I was working with er, a Dutch company called Thom, and er, I went to work, got up in the morning and went to work, and the roads were dead, the streets were dead. And I [phone rings]…can I just get it xxxx…

Please do, not a problem!

[continues ringing] Sofi? Sofi can you xxxx xxxx xxxx [talks on phone] Ok, phone is upstairs. Sorry, that was my son [laughs].

Not a problem, honestly, like I said, I interrupted your afternoon, I don’t mind [laughs].

No, that’s fine.

So we , we were, where were we at? We were um, yeah, the day of the declaration.

Yeah, and er, after that, don’t think I went to work for a long time. But er, in the morning the, er, Kampala streets were dead. The marks of those trucks, tractors, they, they were on the wrong side of the road, in the morning when we saw it. But er, we only stayed in old Kampala, there was er, Kabaka’s house at the back. And we, sometimes used to hear shot, you know, and the gun shots. But that’s all I remember now. I think, I think it was quite traumatic, because when he came in, and after that um, the life for a little while, er, little while got very restricted. We were not allowed to go out you know, being the girls of the family, the parents were very restrictive. But somehow there is a black out.

Yes, yes.

I think sometimes you just, don’t want to remember certain things, and that’s what I’ve done to my mind I think, I don’t remember much about xxxx.

Hmm, you kind of tucked it perhaps in one corner…

That’s it.

Of your mind.

Yeah.

Not to hopefully, be addressed…

But then er, there were more robberies. My, twice er, the Condors they used to call them, they came to our house, once they sort of took er, xxxx shot guns to my mum and took the money the xxxx day. The other time they took my sisters car, they just attacked er, not harm them, but xxxx took whatever they wanted to. Yeah.

Certainly emotionally harmed them, I would have thought.

Hmmm.

Um, so, I mean there was a sense of change then, perhaps when Amin to came to power, and then obviously once he made the declaration, it was an obvious change?

Yes, there, were, for the first er, um…for the first month, our family never took any notice. My parents didn’t want to, and my brothers who were in the family business, two of my brothers were in the family business, my elder brother used to say to my dad “let’s get xxxx to UK” because we used to have agencies of Masaka Xxxx motors, and er, I think one of the directors, I remember, very clearly my mother, he came, they were not too xxx at that time, so when he came to our house in Masaka, one of the directors, said to my father “look, invest five thousand pounds, they’re going to build er, new, um, airport, Heathrow Airport. And er, you can buy a whole street of houses”, and my father said “No, we are living in Africa and we don’t want to go from Africa.” And even my brothers sort of said a lot of times to get xxxx, and he never did, and xxxx xxxx because he left penniless. Xxxx.

Obviously had everything confiscated…

Yeah, there were a lot of other people who took money out before er, had taken it out. He believed, my mother er, my mother’s family had lived there, my, for years, and you know we were the second, third, third, my brothers really were the third generation there, nobody was going to take us out. I was an automatic Ugandan citizen. I could only come here because I got married to my husband.

Who had a British passport?

He had a British passport…

Xxxx.

We got married on the twentieth of September seventy two (1972).

Seventy two?

So we came here on the eighth of October.

Wow, what a turn around. Almost part of xxxx xxxx [laughs].

Well no, I don’t think we would have got married if er, he hadn’t checked us out.

Of course, of course. And erm, let’s talk about um, I mean you did mention it, and I think we did it off recorder, so look I think we need to record this, um, let’s talk about your actual ancestry. How did your family on either side end up in Uganda?

My father went to Uganda…my father came from a little town called Rawali in India, er, and now it is er, Rawal xxxx, it’s quite a big town. And he, I think went there, he’s born in nineteen oh five (1905), sorry, not in nineteen oh six (1906). He was offered, he had er, his mother, his father died when he was six months old, and his father erm, sorry, his mother was married off to somebody else and he knew. All he remembered that there was a lady who used to er, when he used to play outside, she used to call him in, yeah, call him in, and take him behind the door, and then give him a glass of milk, and that’s all he remembers. But he had a very cold childhood, very xxxx childhood. There were two brothers, one sister, and the elder brother was seven years older than him, and he used to do a little bit of work and, bring money in slowly. Grand, blind grandmother would feed them. Then his uncle, who was in Africa, in Uganda, he was already in Uganda during that time. And he was well settled because he used to run um, what do you call, a garage? Er, for clearing, cleaning the guns for the army, British Army.

Yeah.

And he was a photographer for the British Army there in Uganda, who were there. And he was a very good photographer, we have seen some of his photos, it’s amazing.

Wow.

And, he er, went to Pakistan because his wife died. And then he got married to his wife’s sister, and he had brought her to Uganda. And they had no children. So when he went to Pakistan, he saw that my father was very intelligent, my father was I think seven, eight years old but he was very, very intelligent. And he wanted to study, so he put him in a school, and in a boarding, in a boarding school and he paid for his education there. But er, at one point my dad said, “oh my uncle paid for the education, but he forgot we needed money to eat food as well!” yeah. My dad’s father, they were seven brothers. And out of those seven brothers, during the early nineties, which is maybe nineteen hundred, nineteen oh two (1900, 1902), nine, oh, before that, must be before that, my father is born in nineteen oh five (1905), then they, it must be before. They left India and they went travelling. And er, one went to Turkey and the other went to Iran, and none of them got back to their homeland, they must have died somewhere along the line. And the only two brothers was my dad’s father, but he died in India then, and then, now it is Pakistan yeah. And er, my er, uncle who then took, when my dad was sixteen he did his er, er, Affid they used to call it, and he asked him to, my father wrote to him, he said “I want to go to UK to do engineering”, at that time which is nineteen twenties, or nineteen nineteen (1920s, 1919), and he then um, said to him “ok, let’s, I’ll take you Uganda and from Uganda I’ll send you to UK for engineering.” But he brought him to Uganda and never sent him.

It was stopped along the way [laughs].

It was stopped in Uganda, which my father always felt that his uncle cheated him.

Hmmm.

Yeah, he found that he could have sent him, and he would have been a very successful education wise, and all that. But he was very successful anyway, and then my, because the uncle started cycle business, and my dad went to it, there was, er, in to it, and there was a time when he had um, er, about twenty, I think he’s mentioned the number of shops he had, he had opened up shops, and he was a very clever business man. Because he used to employ the Africans in our shop. Teach them the business, teach them how to do this, cycles, you know, some of the cycles, and then he used to go and open them a shop.

It was like a franchise business?

And he, yeah, but they didn’t have any money to pay for it initially. So then, he had people who would come back to him to buy the stock. So he was very successful, a very clever businessman. And he believed in cash business. And he believed that er, that you shouldn’t take any overdrafts or anything like that from the banks, so it was all cash. Until my brothers came in to business and that’s when the overdraft, and the English way of things started happening.

Credit?

Yeah. My dad was very successful, he, not only that he also used to, because he was an orphan, er, he used to bring couple, I remember three people, my mum used to tell us about, the ninth in the line from the top, so I was quite young, and she used to say that he, they used to bring them from an orphanage in Pakistan, which is now Pakistan, then it was India. And they used to work in our shop, and he used to settle the orphan people, er, children. You know, they were used to, he used to bring them at the age of fourteen or fifteen, and then look after them, and then a couple of them he got them married as well and settled. And there was a family, that my mother’s, and father, was very close to, because they used to go with us, my father in the, in his shop. And they became very good friends and it was like one family. But that started it. And even on mothers side of the family, my father sort of supported them, and the cycle business and settle, because they were very young when their father died. When my mother’s er, father died, er, they owned the then land in Jinja, which is the old xxxx. That’s what they owned here, and they were very rich, my grandmother was very rich, my grandfather was very rich.

And how did they get to, on your mother’s side, how did they get to Uganda?

They got to Uganda, my mother’s side got to Uganda, my grandfather came er, here, but I know about um, my grandfather, my mother’s father came um, in eighteen six or eighty two (1882?), something like that, we don’t have the exact dates, but we worked our dates backwards, and my grandmother, is the one who came from Persia. And my grandfather came from India, I don’t know what part of India, but now it is in er, Pakistan, I think it’s Pindi, Pindisidra, Pindi side, he came from there. And they settled. But he was a very well known man at that time.

Hm mm. And also he sounds like a very generous man.

He died very young, he…his wife, er, his wife was in Purda, you know, my grandmother was in Purda, at that time, and people cheated her and had the documents signed and that’s how she lost all her property. And she was quite young as well, she was young, she had er, I’ve got four aunties, my mother, including my mother, they’re four sisters. Er, four brothers. And the youngest one died, so all others were younger than my father. My mother was sec-, third youngest. So she was one of the older children. Who at, then, my father sort of took her family as his own as well, because he had no other family.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It sounds like him being brought up as an orphan really affected his life in the ways he treated others…

Yes.

What a wonderful thing.

Yes, he was er, he was a man of principle and also he was very um, he wanted all of us to educate ourselves. And he did.

It’s like any parent, they want a better life for their children.

Yes.

Especially if they’ve lived such an aw-, well testing um, impoverished life.

Yes.

Um, let’s um…

[husband: excuse me. Um xxxx xxxx]

I will top you.

[Husband: no don’t worry].

It’s ok, I can drop you, how are you going to go?

[Husband: I’ll be back soon uh, xxxx xxxx]

Ok, then I’ll drop you, ok.

No problem, we can, xxxx.

[Husband: Anyway, nice meeting you, sorry about that].

You too, no problem at all.

So you were the novice of him, er, you were Ugandan always ne?

[husband: xxxx first year, when it start].

Ok, so what were you?

[Husband: Then I was xxxx Uganda, um…]

You need to remember.

[husband: I’m a rugby international as well].

Hmm mm.

Yeah.

‘Cause I’ve got er, I’m doing an interview next week um, with a man, you know I’ve forgotten his name, Bachal, Mr Bachal, Vias Bachal, and he um, he’s from Jinja, and he used to be a driver, a rally driver as well.

[Husband: Rally aswell?]

Yeah, he um…

[Husband: ok]

I think he was state champion for Jinja he said, anyway.

Xxxx.

Bit different. But I didn’t believe how popular it was, the rallying, everyone…

[Husband: Everyone [laughs] xxxx]

I’ve got um, I’ve got some photos, I’ll send them to you via email, of er, people in the sev-, sixties and seventies (1960s, 1970s) in front of their old cars.

[Husband: ok]

Mainly in Kampala and Jinja it seems. But I’ll send them to you.

Yeah xxxx, just before you go, just before you go, do you want to ask him what happened when he was arrested?

If you don’t mind…

Yes, please, recording it, just two minutes, if you get that information.

[Husband: I think it’s just a very long…]

No no, but you can just give the gist of it, no.

[Husband: alright, xxxx].

Then I’ll er, er, elaborate, elaborate it…

[Husband: Well you know exactly what happened]

No I don’t know, because at times I’m…

[Husband: ok. Er, say, where shall we start?]

What happened, how, why were you arrested?

[Husband: well, this is when a body attack, attacked Amin, at the border, at the common border with Tanzania Uganda, and er…]

This was during the time of the expulsion.

Yeah.

[Husband: And er, [coughs], Amin always thought that the Israelis were behind all this. So we went xxxx which was xxxx fifty miles, from Kampala, just xxxx xxxx. And we were listening to the radio, my friend was sitting on the back seat, xxxx sticking out. Er, military police, jeep you know, xxxx “what are you guys doing here?” Xxxx “listening to the radio”. So they took us to the police station. This friend of mine, he was very fair skinned so they said he was an Israeli, and he said “no, I’m xxxx Indian, Asian, Muslim”. And they looked at me and he says “You’re an Israeli as well because I was quite fair xxxx xxxx. And um, I said “No, I’m a Gala Singh, a Singh”, they won’t believe it. So they er, checked the car out, they stole a xxxx xxxx. They telephoned in the morning, said xxxxhaving a breakfast, because we were waiting for Amin’s xxxx man called Ibrahim. Er, they were waiting xxxx xxxx they were waiting for him and we knew they would sort it out for us. But he didn’t arrive, so they took us in, and er, he had xxxx xxxx police er, Ambali, and then we had to wait for the command to come in…you know this is going to the torture part of the room. All the biggest one, everyone so, they were saying things like “if you ask him to walk for us on his knees, he won’t even ow, he won’t even hurt xxxx”. I said I might be bleeding or you know. So the commander came and a Colonel, we used to rally with him, Suleman, and he was a xxxx when I used to do rallying with him and he looked at us and ignored us. So…]

They made you sit on the floor, in the prison didn’t they?

[Husband: This is Mikindi]

This is Mikindi yeah, so you were in the Mikindi prison, they took you to…

[Husband: this is um, Kampali. Then he send us to Kimpali, he said “I don’t want to deal with them.” That maybe xxxx was head of xxxx police, so we, er, we were driven there and um, was made to sit on the floor, and this was the time British journalists were arrested as well, and they were given a task, and every time xxxx run off with the newspapers, and there’s no dropping off on the floor. And er, they were threatening us like that, young kids, especially when picking on the old timer.]

Did you believe it, were you scared for your life?

[Husband: Yes I did, my best friend, the first time I looked at him, I said “I wonder do you think we will get out of this place alive?” But er, Major XXxx wasn’t there, he’d gone to meet er, the president because, to discuss the conflict. And they had arrested Aboti’s brother. One of xxxx xxxx. We jumped up, and he says “Don’t worry, don’t worry. Don’t xxxx away [laughs]”.]

XXXX.

[Husband: Major XXXX came two hours later, in er, and he couldn’t speak English, Major XXXX, he said “bring all those Indians in here”. And went in there…and he says “Ok, do you have any belongings here?” I said “Yes, my trousers are in here”. He says, “Over there. Anything else?”. I said “There’s my car.” So the sergeant says “We hand over the car keys at the gate” he said “we don’t bring the keys here”. “Keys, these are your keys, here’s your keys, bugger off”.]

So you escaped with your life but you lost your car?

[husband: No, no, they gave my car.]

They gave your car back?

[Husband: yeah, yeah.]

Wow, what a horrendous um, situation to be in!

[Husband: yeah. And there was another friend of ours who was in jail at that time, and er, we saw him, walking alongside him, er he was arrested just because he was wearing army fatigues. And his main job was to, they had a room where the Africans, you know the guys who were arrested, xxxx xxxx they were out, they were told break away skull. And, and full of xxxx to clean the mattresses.]

No way.

[Husband: I think, it must be in London somewhere].

Thank you ever so much for that, I realise it’s not the easiest thing to talk about…

[Husband: No, no, no, [laughs], doesn’t bother me].

Xxxx some people it could you know, I really do appreciate it.

[Husband: I’ll send you a bill for that!]

[laughs] I hope you are cheap! See you soon. That, well that kind of gives us a very real taste of a lot of stories I’ve heard, you know.

Yeah, because his was quite quick in going then, so xxxx.

Yeah of course, no, no.

The problem about Jinja being, er my mum, my um, mum’s family, her father and her mum was called Zinna Bebe, her father was called, er, God, I can’t really remember xxxx. Um, mum, and er, her brother who was alive was very well known in Jinja. He was known by Yousef Cycles, and they used to have cycle shops on the main road.

I’ve got, I interviewed a man last, two days ago, called Ajit Singh.

Perxxxx?

Could have been…

Yes.

Do you know him?

Yes, I know him very well.

He’s a very fit, he used to enjoy cycling in Jinja he said.

And he was er, speaking on the radio xxxx. Yeah I know him.

Xxxx small world.

Call him uncle.

[laughs].

I call him uncle, yeah [laughs]. He knows me very well. Yes.

I didn’t mention you because obviously I’m interviewing you…

Yeah, they are, they’re all from Jinja, you see. They are from Jinja, so er, XXXX is from Jinja and he’s giving lots of er…

Yeah, he’s xxxx xxxx

All the Jinja people, yeah. But then they were people, but my uncle is quite well known, and one thing, the beauty, are you recording that because that will be quite interesting, because the beauty about my uncle was, he, he was very rich. He married a Polish lady, during the second world war, there were camps in Uganda, right? Um, the ships went from Germany or Poland, where ever, they went to America. America did not let them dock there, right, and then they were sent to Uganda, and they wanted to make Israel in the north part or the south part of Uganda, something like that. Yeah, and er, it didn’t happen, so they, they had camps there. And my uncle, at that very tender age, my uncle was very, very handsome. And my auntie, we call her mummy G, because she was married, er, she later married my uncle, um, had a limp as well, a very obvious limp. And in those days, people would not look at disability very favourable in those days, but my uncle married her, and their marriage was very successful, they had, she brought a daughter with her, and this was when my uncle used to go to camps, you know, to give them some food, or to bring them out to their own houses to come and um, sort of see the outside, the outside of the camps, because they were very deprived people at that time, second world war people. And he used to bring her home, and that is how they happened to get married. What my mum said, that my auntie never knew a word of er, Swahili, or little English, no English, or any other language. And my uncle didn’t know…

Speak Polish or german?

Polish or anything. How they communicated, God knows. But, they got married, had four daughters, one daughter was, the edl-, the daughter which my auntie brought with her, was adopted by my uncle. So he had five daughters.

Hmmm.

And he, he, he had a lot of money as well, he was very, very rich. It was, mill-, millionaires in shillings, with like my father, then it was millions xxxx pounds. And er, he, I went er, one, once during the school holidays to Jinja, and we were walking with my mother. And er, a lady, Guajarati lady stopped my mother, and she said er, “you are Yusef’s sister, I remember you as a little girl.” And she said “yes”. And she said, “You know, we are very poor, your, your brother sends us ration every month. And he doesn’t tell anybody he has sent us ration, every month. And he does that quite, to quite a lot of people.” And that is because they had seen so much poverty in their lives.

Of course.

They make their money, but they had seen poverty in their lives as well.

In the same way that your dad was brought as an orphan, and then became a generous man because of that…

Xxxx, he has an effect, and I think the way er, that children are brought up also is a lot of er, they take on what their parents have given them, really. That’s what it is.

It’s, er, yeah, I mean you find if you are brought up in relative impoverishment, you certainly don’t want your own children to go through that experience xxxx.

Yes, absolutely.

You do anything to provide a life for them that perhaps you didn’t get yourself.

Yeah, yeah. We all had wonderful life, my, one of my sister was sent to Pakistan, she wanted to go to Pakistan to study, she studied there for four, five years. My brother was sent there, my other bro-, sister was, my other brother was sent to UK, I was sent to UK to study. All of us studied. Only the elder one didn’t because there was no education at that time. So there was that difference. But we had a very good um, good life.

Hmmm. People do seem to, er people, um, who I’ve spoken to really did seem to enjoy the simplicity of living in Uganda, it seems.

It’s lovely country, the weather was lovely, the, there was no airs, nobody said I’m a millionaire, nobody said you are poor. You know, it, it was just one of those things, accepted things, you have it, you have it, you don’t have it, you don’t have it. This was in Masaka, I can’t talk about because it is, yes. And we had a neighbour who was Guajarati and I remember when my dad used to come from er, Kampala on the way, they had these market stall, er, the African women or men xxxx selling um, bananas, and things like that. And he used to bring basket fulls of, full of that and my mother used to give us some and said “take it to the neighbours next door.” Because she was a widow, and she had two little girls. And it was just, done. Nobody questioned why, the children never asked why do you want to send it, we were told to take it, we used to take it.

Yeah. And nobody expected thanks or praise for it…

No.

It was something xxxx…

Nobody did, no, no nobody did that at all, it was, it was amazing. We, here in the UK, when I moved in to this house in seventy five (1975), my neighbours across the road, um, on the side of the road, there were a couple of er, neighbours from Africa, from Jinja. This lady from Jinja there, no not Jinja, xxxx there, and Nairobi from er, Kenya. And we are like a family. We dropping in to eachothers house, we take care of each other, and it’s like just being at home. And when I tell people that our street is like that, the few houses on this street, they are amazed. You remember next door, English neighbour…Phillip, he’s in late eighties, wife is ninety one. I asked them years ago, don’t you want to move, too many Asians are moving here. And he said, she said to me, she said “No, I know I’ve got nice neighbours, I don’t need to move.” She’s still here.

Yeah. She’d probably move if white people started moving here! [laughs].

Probably will, yeah! Yeah, so we have a very good neighbourhood here. You know…

It seems that way…

Xxxx carry on the culture, we have carried on.

Definitely, and I xxxx you know, I’m doing a lot more interviews in Hounslow than I am in [laughs] xxxx, ‘cause there is quite a lot of Ugandan Asians have ended up here.

In, in Hounslow, yeah.

Completely, we’ll talk about that perhaps in a moment. Um, let’s go back, we were talking about sort of the um, the period of after the declaration. And you said you’d sort of perhaps tried to wipe out some of the memories, ‘cause perhaps they were a bit too xxxx…

After the independence, after er, when Idi Amin took over.

Yeah, when he took over…

Yes.

Um, how um, I’ve asked you about sort of where you were when the declaration was made, and also you said your parents perhaps didn’t react to it initially, um, I’ve been told by a lot of people they didn’t quite take Idi Amin that seriously actually, um…

No they did.

He used to say things like this all the while for xxxx.

Yeah, they didn’t, they er, well, when he said that I’m giving you, I dreamt that I want to give you three months to leave…nobody bothered. We didn’t bother, my parents didn’t bother, my brothers didn’t think about it at all. Until, serious things started happening, people get started getting hurt, African people started getting killed, you know. Um, some er, the mayor of Masaka was murdered in a horrible way. It er, er, it was quite a sad occasion when he was murdered, and it was horrifying because I remember I came er, I was in the back of, our shop was in front of our house, it was house and shop in the house behind, I came outside, and my brother, younger brother just said to me “go inside, you don’t want to see and you don’t want to know anything.” And that was it. So we did live a protected life, they didn’t want to tell us unless, unless we read it in the papers.

Hm mm. But you know, you still sense danger, even if you’re behind a wall.

Yes, yes.

You can still, you know, a hostile environment, you can feel that.

Hmm mmm.

So er, let me ask, let’s talk about your actual um, the period where you left Uganda then. Er, at what point did you realise you had to leave? It was, obviously you’d been told ninety days but, you, you’d said it was a sense that you were getting more and more tension, more fear…

Late September.

What was the point when you realised?

I think middle of September, the first week in September, my father decided that he should send all the girls out of the country. And children. And I was over age, I was not eighteen, er, I was twenty four, and so therefore I was Uganda Asian. Full stop. There was no, second question. And, the Britain won’t take me, because I was not married. No other country would take me, they would only take the refugees. I was not a refugee. And er, I knew my husband, and er, he said “let’s get married, I’ll take you to London.” And we got married on, we were supposed to get married on the fifteen, then, fifteenth of September and he was arrested. The story he told you just now. And he didn’t turn up at the Registry wedding, and I came, and, and, I was working with this, Dutch company, and my manager said “What happened?” I said “He hasn’t turned up!” [laughs].

[Audio A ends(49:58), Audio B begins]

We’re back, so can we, until the interruption, um, you were talking quite specifically about erm, the period of where your family were trying to get you and your sisters out, and the children out of the country…

Yeah, my…

And you, you were getting married and your husband didn’t turn up…

Yeah, he didn’t turn up on the fifteenth of September, because he was arrested and he was in the Mtinde prison. Um, and then, er, he rearranged the date for the twentieth, and he came late! [laughs]. And he, I was walking home, because nobody else knew we were getting married. And my mum knew, I told my mum that he was er, marrying me to get me out of the country. And, we came here and we stayed together, and that was it. And er, because, um, but er, my dad took my sisters children, my brother in law, my sister in law and her children to Pakistan. They went to Pakistan and er, my dad later on granted er, a house until they, until their husbands came and then they moved all over the world. But er, one of my brother and his son was airlifted, one was airlifted to Malta camp. My eldest brother was airlifted to Malta camp, my brother in law ended up in Rome, he was a doctor so then later on he joined xxxx Detroit in America. One of my sisters ended up in America. My other brother, his wife was in Pakistan, eventually with the children they ended up in er, um, Toronto. One of my brother, who died in, on September the twenty sixth, last year, always had a very sad life. And er, he was my, from my xxxx, third brother, he had two little girls and er, his wife left him. So the girls, he, the wife left him I think in seventy or seventy two (1970, 1972) something like that. And the girls, two little girls, one was five and seven or eight, something, tender ages, they were living with us. And my dad took them to Pakistan and then er, he went to Pakistan, and he wanted to start a business there. But, my father didn’t have any money to give it to him to start any business. So he and my uncle’s son, they left Pakistan, with the two little girls, went to Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Turkey, ended up in Austria. And they travelled on the back of the lorries, um, buses and trains, in people’s cars, with two little girls. At times they could find food for them, at times they couldn’t, they had very terrible lives. So they ended up in Austria camp, in a refugee camp. And finally, Sweden took them. It was very sad because he used to come to England every year, and, to see my mum and dad who were now in Manchester, and his daughter who was then thirteen had an accident and, er, in Holland while they were travelling to London, and she broke her clavicle. And she was in hospital for eight, nine months. He used to work at night, and the red cross in Sweden was brilliant. They used to send a nurse to look after the children over night. And so, therefore he had a little bit of settled life. But his childhood, my father sent him to study in Pakistan, was quite sad because my dad used to send money to the people of the relatives to pay for his school fees, they never did. And he was starved, and he was beaten up by the people. My dad never knew until somebody told him and then he went and brought him back xxxx. That was five, xxxx twenty years he must have had, because during those days, there was no telephones, nothing like that. So, he had a sad life, he died last September. Um, the rest of the family, eventually got together. My younger brothers also to came to London, ‘cause they, my mother had a British passport. My other brother was already studying here. And er, I xxxx, I came with my husband on the eighth of October. I settled here in Hounslow, and er, others, two of my sisters settled in Manchester. Two of my brothers settled in Manchester, so we were all over the world. My mum, it is very, very sad, because what happened to my mum was um, I, I went to see my mum in Manchester in seventy three (1973), and er, there was something not right about her, so I said to her, where I used to go, I used to sleep on the same bed as my mum. You know, although I was married, I had a little girl [laughs]. My daughter used to be in a cot there, and I used to just sleep with my mother! And er, I asked her, I saw some difference in her and I, I said, what’s the matter, what’s bothering you? She said, “When I climbed the stairs of the aeroplane,” she said, “when I was walking towards the airplane and to, to the airport, I started forgetting my home.” And she said, “I can’t remember somethings.” In seventy…five (1975), they diagnosed, she had Alzheimers. And she died. She had never been separated from my father until the exodus, because my father took the children to Pakistan, my mother had a British passport, she came here in a camp, in Manchester. And three years later my father was sponsored by, my, my elder brother to come and join them in the UK, so, three years she was away from my father.

And that had an obvious effect on her?

It had a lot of effect. She never saw her children again. Together, before she died in seventy nine (1979). She was only sixty six. Mind you, she had all eleven of us by the time she was forty [laughs]. That’s the positive side.

Yeah of course, and you know, if…

But it was a trauma for the family because er, trauma for the family, we lost all the money, we lost, er, my father had er, four houses in Masaka, and couple in Jin-, in Kampala. And he had er, also lots of er, er, he had shops in Barara and in Masaka and Kampala, and we had a lot of cash money at home. My brothers, when they left Uganda, they left the keys of the shop with er, the, the manager, the African manager who used to work with us. Thir-, twenty five years later, from my brother xxxx Sweden, went back to Uganda and he looked for that xxxx, his name is Yousefu. He looked for him and er, he found him, and the man said to him, my brother, Xxxx my brother said, my brother said he was very old, and he said “I have got mama’s bed, and mama’s cupboard.” They used to call my mummy, mama. And my brother was touched and he said, “I have saved it in my house for your mother, because she loves these things.” And the children, er, the, the, the manager er, grew up in the family from the age of twelve. Yeah, they worked with us in our shops from the age of twelve, and they gotten older as well, because they are the same ages as my brothers. Elder brothers. And my dad had imported that bed from England, in nineteen thirty (1930). I think that bed would cost about twenty thousand pounds now. It had er, the chrome erm, gold plated er, things on the sides, four posters…

Posters?

Four posters. And the er, the cupboard was Chinese, it had Chinese painting, hand paintings on it.

And it was still there?

So, yes, so he said to my, he said to my brother, said to Yousef, “Well, Mama is dead now. You keep it, we don’t need it.” But, twenty five years, he still saved it for my mum. Yeah, they used to call my mum, mum. Because they xxxx xxxx things like that, they worked in the shop and they used to come and have food.

What a wonderful story xxxx.

Xxxx. I mean there’s so many different things that come to your mind, it’s not that all families treated Africans badly. No they didn’t. That’s not true. Because they were families, there were families who looked after them. When my mum got married at the age of thirteen, or fourteen, she went to Masaka at the age of sixteen. And they had this house boy who used to work for them, xxxx, who was fourteen, fifteen? So my mum and he grew up together. Yeah, and my mum used to say, that er, when he xxx, he was retiring, er, said to my brothers, “If he comes to the shop, give him free tyres. Give him everything, because he is my friend, and we’ve grown up together.”

That’s amazing.

That’s amazing.

What a wonderful perspective as well.

Yeah.

Because as I said earlier…

His name was Samili, I remember it.

As I said earlier, it seems to me that people sort of, they do talk about this um, the potential tension and jealousy between the two, certain communities there. But stories like that show that there were a certain unity and xxxx different xxxx certain xxxx…

There was, because you know, even now, if somebody’s staying with you, yeah, if somebody stays with you that do become a part of your family. They might be different culture, different faith, but they do become part of your family and…

Especially when your family is as generous as your family obviously as well [laughs].

My father was very generous, my mother was very generous.

It certainly seems so. And erm, so er, after the expulsion obviously, you’ve quite, um, quite beautifully and emotionally described some of the processes you went through, you, I mean from a financial point of view it seems that everything your father and mother had worked to provide for you…

Lost it.

Just gone, literally.

Just gone.

You’ve talked about the emotional trauma that your mum experienced from being split from her family, never seeing the eleven children together as well, which obviously had an effect on her. Um…

And on us! And on us.

And on yourself as well.

And because of that, I worked with er, um, Alzheimer’s society. I did a lot of work with Alzheimer’s, people who suffered with Alzheimer’s. And er, I…produced leaflets with the help of the Alzheimer’s Society, for Asian people. What we did was, at my work, we wrote it in our languages, in four languages then translated it in English, and then back in to those languages, simply Alzheimer’s leaflets saying, lock your doors, or how to treat, and I was funded by Alzheimer’s national to do that, and they funded the journalist as well, because I believed they thought I wasn’t good enough at English [laughs]!

I hope you proved them wrong!

No, no, no, they were very good, they were very good. And er, this was I think in the eighties (1980s), or late eighties (1980s) something like that. And er, they, the leaflets were I understand, then translated in to ninety languages. But I checked up now, and they can’t find the leaflet. I’ve got a copy of it.

Keep it.

Copy of the leaflet. I can’t find an English translation, but I’ve got the Indian ones. Translated one.

XXXX.

And they acknowledged me nationally on the back of the leaflets as well.

That’s wonderful.

Yeah, so it was quite, I xxxx…

XXXX it’s really wonderful that you know, you’ve seen an issue with your mum, and er…

And I took it forward.

You took it forward,in to, to help others as well, perhaps when your mum couldn’t get the help xxxx.

No this was after she died.

Yeah.

You see it’s always a shock when all of a sudden, you’ve lost your country, you lost your brothers and sisters, your siblings have moved away, corners where they are, and then your mother gets this illness. And your younger brothers have got not enough money to live, you know, it is been very difficult. Very, very difficult.

Definitely.

Yeah.

And um, so your life in Britain, I know, I’m understanding you’d already been to Britain to study before xxxx…

I was studying here in nineteen sixty eight (1968), and so was my xxxx, husband here in, from nineteen sixty five (1965) he was studying here.

So I often, I often ask about your first impressions of England, so let’s go back to sixty eight (1968), regardless of the fact you didn’t first come here for the expulsion. What was your first reaction, what were your first impressions?

When I first came to UK it was beautiful. There was so much snow! [laughs]. I went to my other sister in Manchester in sixty eight (1968), or sixty seven (1967) December? November, December. And er, there was so much snow, the first thing she took me to a big store, I don’t know which store it was, and she bought me shoes and she said to me, because she was my elder sister I was listening to her, she said, “Do you know, buy the shoes with the fur inside.” And she bought me these lovely boots, they were so cosy. But when I went to the college in er, Hastings, I was work, er, I went, I was studying in Hastings, I went to the college there and the girls laughed [laughs]. They said their mother, er, grandmother shoes [laughs]! But, they kept me warm.

They were practical!

I didn’t know the fashion!

[laughs].

I didn’t know the fashion. My sister meant well, she wanted me to be warm [laughs].

I would argue that you’re a fashion um, setter. You’re a trailblazer! [laughs].

[laughs].

Everyone’s wearing those boots nowadays! [laughs]

[laughs]. It was amazing because then, I thought, oh my God, I’m really old fashioned. No I’m not! [laughs]. But that was first imp-, it was very, very cold and my sister and her husband, came, took me in a car, took me to Hastings from Manchester, and went back the same day. Can you believe that? ‘Cause I was staying with a family, and they just went to drop me, so I stay, I studied there. It was er, er, and I’m glad I did that course, if I’d done anything else I probably would have never got jobs. But I’ve never been without a job.

Yeah.

I did er, it was Business Education.

Ok.

It had shorthand, it had typing, believe it or not there was a subject called Business English. And er, there were other things like er, book keeping and all that course and it was a er, a year and half, or two years course there. And when I did that I was never without a job.

Yeah. And obviously you went back to Uganda, did you ever think you would ever end up back in England when you went back to Uganda? Before the expulsion did you used…

I went back to Uganda, um, late sixty nine (1969), I got a job with a travel agency called East African Travels. And because of my so many different language skills, they gave me a job in Regent’s Street in London.

What, after the expulsion?

No before that.

Oh before, before that, yeah.

Before that, before the expulsion. So then I came back and worked six months in England, and then I went back and then I got a job. But after the expulsion, during the expulsion I…er, because my nieces and nephews and some family members didn’t have passports, didn’t have documents, I was forever standing in the queues to get their documents. And time to get the family, getting out of the country.

And…

I didn’t think of myself, being the only one, Uganda passport.

Yeah, you, you should have been in the queue for the British passport [laughs].

Oh, I’ve got it. I wouldn’t have got it because it was not er, I wasn’t er…

You had no right to.

I had no rights to it. Xxxx.

Um, so obviously when you came back after the expulsion, where did you settle?You said you came here in seventy five (1975), was it, Hounslow?

We came here in seventy two (1972), October. And I stayed one night with my husband’s er, uncle, um, separate rooms [laughs]! They didn’t know we were married because he’s Sikh and I’m Muslim. And then I went to see, my sister was already living in Manchester, my other sister, so I went to, Manchester. And I came back after a month, when I told my brother in law about my wedding, he was very disappointed. He said he shouldn’t have got married, it would have been better if you were dead because you married outside your religion, you married - er, I came back to London, and we had, we stayed with my husband’s friend. My, Sufi was here, as er, since sixty five (1965) and he had loads of friends here. And he, er, funny enough his friend is called Raj, and er, he got on the Piccadilly line, and he saw this man, and he saw this man talking to another Asian guy. And asking him, do you know where Sufi is going. Because Uganda there, everybody thought everybody knew everyone, but that wasn’t true [laughs]. But my, but er, Sufi got up and he thought that was Raj…and he went, he had a newspaper and he just patted his shoulder and xxxx, so he took him home to his flat in Northfields, he had got married to an Indian girl and they were living in a room. And he stayed with them for one month. Two single beds, four of us in one room. [laughs].

Cosy! [laughs].

Cosy! He helped us, he supported us. We had no idea, because we did not come in er, we did not go to the refugee camps, it was harder for us. We had no money, we didn’t know if we could get benefits, we didn’t try, we had no idea there was anything called benefits. What, er, because mine, er, um, because of my course that I did, my short hand was a hundred and ten. And I started working on the first November, nineteen seventy two (1972) and never stopped.

Wow.

I joined the Bank of Scotland, that used to be nice work as a shorthand typist, with the branch manager. And from then, I moved up, progressed.

Wow. Wonderful.

But I’ve never stopped working. And my husband then later on got a job I think in February or March, and then we moved to a one bedroom on Alladine(sp?) Road. Prior to that, Sufi and I were looking for a room, everywhere, every Indian we went to, or a Pakistani we went to for a room, they wouldn’t give us a room. Because, I’m Muslim, he’s Sikh. Yeah. There was one guy, who, who was able to rent, who said he will rent the room to us, and er, but what he, the questions that he asked were so- do you know how to use the toilet. You sit on the toilet this way, you don’t behave this way, and er, in the fridge you can’t put any meat in, you can’t put this in, you can’t use the fridge. And we thought this is our only room we can get, because we couldn’t with er, Raj for more than, you know, the quiet time, his landlord he was bothering him as well. And er, we never xxxx the rent, I think three fifty or something, three pounds fifty, something like that. He gave us the key, and he was so disappointed, there was so many restriction my husband threw the key over the bridge, you know the xxxx bridge? And he said “Damn it, we’re not going there!” [laughs]. So we got a room here in Alladine Road, we stayed there, and then Sufi’s parents were, went to India. And they came er, and they were, they wanted, they were British passport holders, they went to India, every bit they took from Uganda was taken by the customs. In India. They, they confiscated it. Everything. And that was an Indian country, I meant, Indian people are going there as refugees, and they got nothing back. So we, er, because I was allowed to bring hundred and ten pounds, and Sufi was allowed to bring fifty pounds, and then I started working, so we send them tickets to come and join us in England. Him and er, my mother and my father in law, then he rented a house on Alladine Road, and when he rented a house, a three bedroom house, my sister in law also moved in. From one bedroom, with two suitcases, we came to Alladine Road, forty eight Alladine Road, from forty eight Alladine Road er, two years later in nineteen ninety five, we bought this house. And we actually walked with our stuff. But we have six suitcases then, and we had a lot more stuff. The lady Mrs Spindler, who er, had put this house for sale, we used to go to work and we used to pass this house, and it had for sale board on it, so er, we negotiated with her, and she was so good, I think we bought it for twelve or something like that. She was so good, that somebody was going to loan us some money, and he refused, to then give us. We only needed sixteen hundred pounds for the deposit, so we collected hundred from here, two hundred from there, yeah. To do that. And er, my husband came to her and he said we can’t get the deposit together, and she said, “Don’t worry, I am going to emigrate to Austr-, New Zealand”, because her husband had died, her daughter was in New Zealand. “But I will wait until you get the deposit together.” The people opposite, in one seven nine, they offered five hundred pounds more for this house, she said “No, I’ve given my word to young Dhillons”. She waited seven months until we could get the deposit together, and sold it to us.

Wow.

I mean really, I never forget the lady, because she, Mrs Spindler, um, left extra bulbs in all the rooms, extra bulbs. Every where, she was not supposed to leave any beds or anything, she said I’ll sell them. She left all the beds there. She left the house full of things including pots and pans, she knew we didn’t have much. And she, there are very kind people, and she said to us that we er, “I know how you have suffered, and how hard you are working, and I gave you my word, and I will leave everything for you.” And she did.

That’s, what a wonderful story.

She was a wonderful lady.

I would also suggest that good things happen to good people though, perhaps your families generosity that they’d obviously xxxx…

She, was, she was really good to me. But I’ve had very good experiences with people. I have had er, with my working life er, in nineteen seventy two (1972), er, in nineteen seventy three (1973) I started helping people in my own time to fill their forms out, do this bit, or you know. Ugandan people got very depressed when they came here, because families were not around, they had no businesses. The people wouldn’t have money, in Uganda, they very wealthier. For extremely wealth, ‘cause all their families went out to work. And, while the families, like ours, who got separated, emotionally it was very taxing. And there were lots of families like that, like that anyway. And so I was helping them to do the forms. And then I started working for fire stone, I worked for fire stone for three months, and then I had another baby, and I mean we had very little money to live on. Um, my husband, Sufi worked for Hawker Sydney (?), and er, he had bad experience. He, very well spoken, Sufi is very well spoken, um, people used to say that he speak with a plum in your mouth. And I never knew what plum in your mouth means [laughs], until somebody told me, it’s snobbishness [laughs] xxxx. And he was working in Hawker Sydney in the accounts department, and there was this English lady, she said “I don’t want to sit next to him.” She was very racist. And he had bad experience there, but- and they the way they talked to him was, this is a calculator, you people have never seen a calculator in your life. Things like that, they spoke to him. But er, I think he then, left the job because I was, had a baby and he joined London Transport, and from London Transport he moved on until our own businesses. He had a lot of losses in, he had a losses in businesses because people didn’t give him money back, you know, I mean, business. But it’s, we’re ok.

Xxxx looking round your wonderful house I think…

He’s done it himself, he’s decorated, he’s now a decorator.

Oh really? I love the colour of the kitchen, I have to admit [laughs].

Hmm?

I really love the colour of the kitchen, it’s kind of a nice duck egg grey blue.

Yeah.

Xxxx.

Well we are re-doing it now, as you can see it is half painted in, in xxxx.

I’ll tell you what, we’ll move this in to my kitchen, you can…

Yes!

Come to my kitchen and we’ll swap [laughs].

Why not, why not!

But you um, if I, you um, you touched on something there in terms of um, you know, we’ve talked about the positive um experience you had with say, let’s refer to them as the Anglo or the native population of Britain, the existing population when you arrived. Um, but also if you look back at the time period, um, we mentioned it before we started recording, you have sixty eight (1968) you have Enoch Powell, you have the race relation act which was a direct consequence of the Kenyan expulsion…

Absolutely.

Which you know, is pretty much deemed as one of the most harshest anti-migrant piece of legislation, probably over the past xxxx, by Callahan. Um, and obviously you then had late sixties, early seventies (1960s, 1970s) you had quite an increase in support for groups like the NF and later the BNP. So it was a real time of quite a divided society in Britain. Unfortunately, you throw twenty eight thousand Ugandan Asians in to the mix and it did cause like, turmoil…

Yes, it, id did. It did.

Can you remember any other experiences perhaps you had, negative, in terms where xxxx xxxx…

My negative experience was er, I…seventy three (1973), seventy (1970), my daughter is born in seventy- so I’m working the dates out for you. In probably, seventy five (1975) I used to work for fire stone, or seventy four (1974). Four, five (1974, 1975). I worked for fire stone er, for the general credit management there. And you used to have I think thirty different, er, towns xxxx xxxx you know where the fire stone companies were. And er, I went there as a temporary and I was working as an admin. And there was this guy, he said to me, I said “oh, I wish I would get a permanent job here, because it’s easier, not far from home.” And he said, “Well, there’s a permanent job going on in the er, credit department, general credit department. And the managers name is McConnell. And I challenge you, he won’t give you the job.” And I said “Why?”. He said, “Because you’re coloured.” I walked in to the office and I said er, I said “Mr McConnell, you don’t know me, I’m doing admin work, I’m temporary I’m from Reed Agency. I’m only here for six months, but I hear there’s a post going on.” And he said “yes, there is.” And I said er, “I know you won’t give me the job.” And he looked at me and he said “I’ll ask you to come for an interview.” So I went for the interview, and I told him “Look I’m challenging you, I want the job. Because I’m coloured, I’m Ugandan you’re not going to give me the job.” And he said “You’ve got the job.” I got the job, and he said to me “You are to wear high heels, tights [laughs] and skirts.” Because I had no choice, I had to go out and buy all those to work with there, but…he used to be in the army in South Africa. British Army, and he used to talk to me about um, the Africans in South Africa, the natives in South Africa, that the natives killed each other in the army. And I said “look, in the army, they are given instructions by the superiors to do that, that’s what- and the superiors were white.” And, somehow along the line, I think he, he liked my challenges, and he was, he became a friend as well.

I get the impression he probably wasn’t used to er, a young Asian lady coming to challenge him…

Challenge. There were no Asian ladies working in there at all. Er, I think there was only two, and I was the third one. And the others were only on er, very admin jobs.

It reminds me I mean, um, when I first went to secondary school I was bullied for two years by this one boy, um I was always the small kid at school and he was quite- as bullies normally are, that he was the big kid. And then, it wasn’t until I actually finally challenged him, after about eighteen months of going home crying everyday…

Hmmm. Yeah.

And I finally challenged him and he’s now my best friend in all the world! [laughs]. He used to bully me for eighteen months [laughs]. Not a day goes past where I don’t let him forget the fact that he used to take my lunch money.

Yeah, yeah.

He owes me a few pints over the years! [laughs]

Does he? [laughs]. It’s amazing, it’s amazing I think, I just xxxx, that guy hadn’t told me, I would never have got the job, I’ve never moved on, because it was a senior position. It was to the general credit manager, was, a very high position, one of the higher positions, and there are three canteens there. One for the directors, one for the staff, personal staff like we were, and one for the factory workers.

The rest? So it, from, not a racial segregation but social segregation [laughs] there.

Absolutely, absolutely.

That, that’s Britain. [laughs] It’s the Britain of the sixties and seventies (1960s, 1970s) anyway. Um, so you um, you obvi-, I mean you’ve obviously experienced um, we touched on your experiences in terms of certain negative experiences, and of positive experiences…

It was negative, but I’ve taken it very positive because it’s taught me how to deal with people. How to act with people, and it’s, I’ve come a long way with that. Yeah.

And used it in the future. And um, you also touched on something which I think is quite important, you said, you talked about the relative highs and lows of your husband, and your work and employment, and you said you know, because I think this is important because Ugandan Asian community as we mentioned before the recording, you are as celebrated as the, almost on a pedestal, but as the most high achieving refugee group…

Absolutely, they are xxxx…

Xxxx say migrant group as well, not just refugee group. I’d say out of all the twentieth century they are held up in very high regard.

Hmmm.

Be it by governments, politicians, journalists, anyone. Um, people will always refer back to the Ugandan Asian community, and celebrate them as you know, the successful migrant group.

Xxxx.

Why do you think that is?

Because Asian, Ugandan Asians have come here and they have moved up. Despite the fact that er, people suffered in their own ways, with depression, with the mental health issues. Or with the separation of the family that didn’t bother them [tuts], I don’t mean bother them, that didn’t let them do nothing, um, they didn’t just feel sorry for them, they moved on. They moved on, they started their own businesses, and they’ve been successful. For example, I went in to community work, charity work. And wow, the first charity work job I got was, I was getting paid, and I never knew that charity workers get paid. Africa we didn’t get paid. Uganda we didn’t get paid. We did charity, xxxx, and that was it. And I thought, oh, that’s good, charity workers get paid. And um, I mean, work and in my work, in my field, since last thirty five, forty years, is working with Ugandan Asians, with Kenyan Asians, or refugees coming in to this country, I find that the Ugandans have done very well. Their children have done very well, their grandchildren have been integrated very well in to the society here. And er, and they are a great contribution to the er, British, er, to the British in, India, in UK.

And do you think in terms of um, we joked earlier didn’t we about shop keepers, er, the celebrated nation of shop keepers [laughs]…

Nation, yeah.

Um, do you think it perhaps also helped the fact, you touch on two things there, first you’ve moved on, do you think the fact that you arrived with nothing…

With nothing at all. Nothing at all.

It didn’t really allow you to dwell on the past, you were er, basically forced to start again, and you were starting it well, and quickly. Do you think that was an aspect as well?

Um, I [sighs]…with me and with my husband it was also the knowledge of the UK, we already had. And also, we wanted to be successful, because we know there was no, no going back. And we didn’t want to be looked down as being given the money. My mother…used to be very upset, when she used to get social security money, she said “this is charity money. I used to give charity, I don’t want this money.” And we used to try and explain to her, it’s not charity, it’s…we used to say her, “you have paid taxes to the British government.” But she couldn’t understand that, she couldn’t, she was not educated, do she couldn’t understand that, but she felt very sad. So really speaking, um, Britain, xxxx Ugandan Asian, and the success is our hard work. Which we are contributing to the Brit. British.

Xxxx.

It’s all I can say.

No, xxxx I think you’ve put that in quite, most beautiful words.

[laughs].

Um, do you um, do you think your community is quite thankful to the British government, for what they did to you, or, for…

Sorry?

Do you think the Ugandan Asian community are thankful to the British government, or British People for what they did, or do you see it as something that naturally would have happened anyway?

Um, no, I don’t think we should, er, I am thankful to the British government for what they did, definitely for me. Nothing for my husband, we have worked from nineteen seventy two (1972) to today, we have never been on benefits. We have never er, in fact we have contributed towards the British. But yes, people move, might have been on benefits, and I don’t think they need to be thankful, we were living under the Uganda protection, protectorate, we were protectorate. And Britain has taken a lot of the…their colonies. They took coffee, they took sugar, the barter system, they, Britain has taken the life and soul of the countries. And that’s the way I look at it. And they’re not doing us any favours.

And you did say, as a consequence it was their duty…

It is their duty, so they not take us any favours, of course it is their, British passport, you have got travel documents, British passport, and if they value their British passport, then they are not running any community, even their own people, even white community they’re not valuing.

It’s um, you know, I can never put answers in to people’s mouths but I was hoping you were going to answer like that, because um, the, er, a lot of interviews I’ve done so far, um, but certainly the older generation they are very thankful to the British xxxx, but almost a little bit too thankful, let’s say. And almost sycophantically so, they, they’re not quite, it’s almost as if some members of the Ugandan community have forgotten, like you said so eloquently, that Britain did actually take and take and take, and it was about time they gave, you know [laughs]. You know, as a society.

Yeah.

Um, so, I think it’s just such a wonderful answer.

I mean, they are not giving any charity, they’re not giving to the beggars, they’re giving it to their passport holders. That they have allowed to come in to this country, and they have taken the um, what is the right word, I would say is, responsibility of their er, passports.

And of course that was very contentious issue, certainly under Callahan with the Kenyans.

Yes.

But then also later, the Ugandan Asians.

Ugandan Asians, yes.

I think the reality is, as you pointed out, if you, if the British, when it was a British protectorate, they did give out these passports, and therefore, with such passports there are certain privileges, certain rights that you can, can claim.

Absolutely.

And that was certainly the rights to have somewhere to live [laughs], when you were finally expelled.

Yes, yes.

And also let’s face it, I mean Idi Amin himself…

XXXX

Was a priv-, bit of a puppet of the British as well [laughs].

He was, he was. He, well he was in the British Army, we all know what he did, and xxxx repeat xxxx xxxx…

That stories been told almost [laughs].

Almost over and over again. It is um…I just…I just felt that the Ugandan Asians who were in the camps, were also abused. Er, I read about it in the papers and I used to think, oh my God, what are they doing? I used to hear about people saying that they are being taken in buses to do the work, in, wherever they went to work. And they were paid very little money for it. And that was abuse. And that was taking advantage of people who were suffering, who had suffered. And who were not aware of what is happening. It’s only after ten years, or xxxx so, that people started realising what has happened to them.

They almost got carried, sucked in to the machine almost.

Absolutely, absolutely, yeah.

And do you um, let’s move on, we were actually just touching on the last couple of questions now, so we’ll start winding it up. Um, do you, in terms of Uganda, um, did you say you’d returned, did you say?

I went there for one day.

One day? I thought it was er…

We went, we went there in seventy nine (1979), I was in Kenya, and then we went to Uganda. We were going to stay a few days there, but unfortunately um, we heard that there was going to be some trouble brewing up, and my husband, because of the incident, that he was arrested by, and was put in Mkinde prison. He was only thirty four, we have the same age, him and me, at that time. And er, he wanted to come out. We went to Masaka where our shop was, and stood outside the shop, and I said to my husband, “I want to go inside and see!” And where we had the ladder in the shop, where the till was, it was all there. And I really was dying to go inside, but my husband didn’t let me go, he said if something happens then we have no support. Um, but er, I was chuffed. I travelled through the town of Uganda, I went to the, passed the graveyard, because my eldest sister, one of my sisters is buried there. I went passed our schools, and, um, we didn’t see any Asian people there. There was nobody there. There was one person I knew who would be there but he was out of town. So we came back, and when we came back to Kampala, we were told that it was brewing up, so we left. I was there only one night.

One night? But you got to see the house, can you explain perhaps the…

I saw…

Emotions you felt?

I saw the shop from outside. I stood outside. My husband parked the car, and he’s, he sort of parked it, and he said, oh, I’m going to look at it, the tyre has gone flat. Because there was a fear in him, he, and I, I was saying to him, I want to go inside the shop. Because, and I could see my dad’s family in the shop, imagine him. I could see, we used to have a huge safe there, and er, and everything came back to me. Every single thing, er, as a little girl my dad used to bring, put the money in the bags, because he was doing so much business, in bags, xxxx bags. And used to bring it inside the house. And er, we all used to get together and we used count money, and er, my dad used to say, whoever counts the most money I’ll give them xxxx, but we used to nick some as well, he didn’t know that. He still doesn’t know that!

[laughs] I won’t tell him! [laughs].

Yeah, he’s gone, he, he’s been gone since the nineteen eighty seven (1987). But what, er, the joys of er, all that, that all came back…

Flooding back.

Yeah, it all came back. Er, I was very tearful, I was very tearful because I was, the cycles were there, and I knew what spare part was where you know. We had, we used to sell the cycles as well with my dad and you know, with er, the guys who used to work there. I could show you some photos I have afterwards.

Xxxx xxxx for that.

And er, I mean it did, it did bring back a lot of memories. We did go, we did travel in the town and saw the other houses as well. We had, but just from outside. My husband was very, not wanted to. He just took me to Masaka because, but he, he, because of the experience he had, and that’s xxxx.

I think that’s very very justified xxxx…

He had a very bad experience and, and it was quite er, frightening experience for him, because he saw so much blood all over the wall, walls in the er, Mkinde, er, prison. And on the floor. And er, I think one of the officers said to him, oh he’s a big man, take him on the top of the roof and throw him, he won’t die! And he kept on saying, I kept on praying to God, oh no, no, don’t throw me I’m human, I’ll die!

Xxxx.

So he had a very bad experience.

Yeah, I think that’s completely justified. If you had a certain apprehension, when xxxx.

Xxxx So we came back.

Erm…

XXXX.

Did you um, in terms of when, when you, before you went back, did you ever think you were going to go back at any point, did you ever think you’d see Uganda again?

I don’t want to go and settle there…

Yeah.

Because I feel my age doesn’t allow me to settle there. Um, but yes, I want to go back. And, yes I want to see what we had, where we went, what we did, what charity work my dad, my dad did a lot of charity work in Masaka. Um, and he’s got photographs of the xxxx as well, and with the, the Queen, I think the Queen as well I can’t remember where it was but er, some where. When, when she went there, to East African safari or something, a long time ago. So, he was quite a prominent member of Masaka.

Do you think it’s um, let’s talk about your identity now, and um, I mean you said, what I found sort of quite interesting, you’ve mentioned while we were talking, you reminiscing about the story of your boss, they, the boss who wasn’t going to give you a job because you were of colour…

Yes, yes.

And you mentioned something when you walked in, I sort of, it stood out, you walked in and you said, you weren’t Asian, you said you were Ugandan.

I’ve said I’m Ugandan, I’ve never believed I’m an Asian [laughs]!

Yeah, that’s what I was going to ask, what are you as an identity, what do you see yourself now? After all these experiences, having lived in these different places…

I am Ugandan, my mother was born there, my grandmother went there, we’ve been there since nineteen eighties (1980s[but think she means 1880s]) to seventy two (1972), yeah, and that’s over a hundred years, nearly a hundred years. Yeah, nearly a hundred years. And yes, maybe we come from Indian subcontinent, but as I say, Ugandan, if something happens to Uganda, my heart misses a beat, if something happens in India, it doesn’t do nothing to me. Or Pakistan. And even my husband, my husband’s parents are born in Pa-, in India, and he will listen to the Indian news, and I have no er, emotions with India at all. And they think I’m funny. But I’m not, because, your mother is always talk to you about Uganda, about Masaka, about her experiences, about her mothers experiences xxxx, how, and her father, but, she lost her parents quite, her mother and father at a young age, so, xxxx about her mother. So how can I say anything about India? I’ve never lived there. The first time I went there was in nineteen ninety five (1995). Just to visit it at somebody’s wedding.

So you identify with Uganda in East Africa…

I do more.

In terms of you as a person xxxx?

Me as a person, I do. If something happens to Uganda, or, er, just an example, I met er, there was a guy called er, Williams. He used to work with Richmond Housing Partnership, and I work in Richmond, and I used to have meetings. And he said to me, he’s from Masaka, he was born in Masaka. I nearly died! This black African. I nearly died, and for ten years we worked, we met each other at meetings and places, and he would always come and hold my hand, and said to me, Dugu Dugoons [sp?], sister. Uganda, African Ugandan, saying to an Asian woman, and at one point one Asian lady said to me, “oh, you are a very loose character”, she xxxx lady. “You allow a black man to hold your hand.” And it was an Asian lady, she was an elderly lady, but she was from Africa. And er, my answer to her was, that “he was born in the same town I was.” You know when you meet somebody who is born in the same town as you, you nearly die, in another well, country you know. And secondly, “he’s called me a Dukuwe, he’s calling me a sister, and he can hold my hand, I’m not bothered!”

He’s my brother!

Yeah. Full stop. I was er, we had a very good relationship, until he’s moved on to another job, and then you know, the distance. But he’s still in touch with me.

Yeah. So, I mean your heart is, it lies xxxx…

My heart lies with Uganda.

Yeah.

My heart lies with Uganda. I would love to go to that beautiful climate [laughs].

Yeah, well, I was going to say, the weather is certainly [laughs]…

Yeah xxxx xxxx.

We’ve talked about your identity then, let’s talk about the identity of your, you have children you mentioned…

I’ve got children, two a girl and a boy. My daughter is nearly forty now, and my son is thirty six, xxxx.

Let’s talk about, let’s talk that generation, the children of the exodus, let’s say, or certainly, the next generation of the people who left. Um, do they identify with Uganda at all, do they…

No.

Identify with the story, that you, the process…

Um, they know, they hear it, they take it as an experience and that is it. That’s it with them. Um, my son and my daughter would like to go to Uganda. My daughter did go to Kenya, she, it was three years ago, she went er, she climbed Kilimanjaro, she raised er, money for water aid. And I think they raised about seven thousand pounds.

Wow.

Um, and er, I think she did very well, she went to the top, and she said to me, “mum, I have never seen so many stars in the world.” In the evening, the sky in Uganda…

Did it remind you of…

Xxxx.

Did it remind you of home when she said that?

Yeah. Well she came and told me she said “Oh, that must be Uganda for you too.” Because you know, in the evening you have stars, you don’t see stars here.

Especially this close to the airport! [laughs].

We don’t see as many stars here, and if there is any star I just sit outside and watch it, because in the evening you used to sit and watch the stars.

Yeah of course. Do you think it’s important that perhaps the children, and even their, their children or grandchildren, is it important that their aware of the process you went through, or do you think it’s a story that should be left?

No, I think they should be aware, this is why I have written a lot of things, and my father has written, I’ve kept it in a book, my son knows where it is. But the problem with the children now, is that…when my children were born, we were busy settling ourselves down. Yeah, my daughter was born, we didn’t even have a house, we didn’t have no money, we never went on holidays, we never did anything, we were just settling outsiders in this country. And er, taking children to school, bringing, we had no time. No time to tell the stories. Now, that they are older and they are, there I’m penning it down for them, so they know. They know quite a little bit from the conversations, but it’s, it’s not them that’s gone through it.

Of course.

It’s…they are very British, they will call themselves British, English, born in England.

So in the same way you identify with Uganda xxxx…

Exactly.

They will only ever identify perhaps with England.

Exactly. And it’s their Queen, it’s not our Queen, their Queen.

XXxx.

Don’t forget that.

That’s true, it’s true as well. Unfortunately you both pay for her, xxxx [laughs].

[laughs].

You don’t have a choice in that!

[laughs]. No choice!

Er, we’re just going to touch upon the last couple of er things now. Um obviously, um, I mean this is a question I ask everyone. Um, but I mean, I’m, I, I’m interested to know how you think the fortieth anniversary should be celebrated. Um, but with you, you’ve actually, you’ve already told me that you think, um, obviously it’s important for your grandchildren and children to know. Um, but also you joined the core committee so you obviously have an interest in the celebrations [laughs]. How do you think it should be celebrated, is it, I mean, do you think it should be celebrated nationally, by perhaps both white, the Anglo population, as well as the Ugandan Asian community. Do you think this is a story that should be celebrated by the nation?

I think the success is always c-, success always comes after hardship. Hmm. And Ugandan Asians…with just those three months of expulsion, was hard. Was very difficult. And the success in this country needs to be celebrated, not forgetting the hardships. Not forgetting the experiences of leaving, it’s not only one community, there were Punjabis, Guajaratis, er, Ismalis, Ismali were also a prominent community there as well. There wer other comm-, Farsi community, there were other minorities as well there, and I think they need to be er, also, included in this. In this moment what I find, that we are constantly xxxx very much to Jinja people, they’re not looking, there is Masaka, there is Uganda, there’s Abrara, there’s Kampali. There’s little towns, there are people who lived in little villages. And their, their er, successes are not being ign-, er, are not being taken in to account. It’s fine to say that, ok, for example, I’m not going to name, Ashi is an Epi, Ashi is from Uganda, and the world is going to come down to Ashi with their stories all the time. It’s not about that. It’s about grass root people, who suffered the most. And that is what is being ignored now. I don’t know whether you agree to that or not, but I feel that, because when I went to the first meeting, I brought up that question.

Well, I, this is no um, certain disrespect to the core committee, or Praful, Mr Praful Patel himself, who I work, I told you I have a lot of respect for him, but I think, we’re quite aware at Eastside, um that Praful is helping us get interviews, however the interviews he’s getting us are, tend to be diplomats, functionaries, celebrated people…

Hmmm.

And I mean, it’s, it’s something we’re very aware of ‘cause Eastside has never done that. The organisation I work for, we’ve always, what we do, even our website is called “hidden histories”…

Hmmm?

“Hidden History”

Hidden History?

So, yeah, so the histories of people who are often overlooked, ignored or hidden away. You know, so that’s why we work with people, with disabilities, we’ve, I mean the first project I did with the organisation was disability, er, history month, and we did an exhibition. And we talked about how able bodied and disabled bodied workers actually work together in unison in factories in east London. You know, we’ve done er work with um Bengali communities as well.

Hmmm.

Um, a number of the er, groups that xxxx are overlooked. And yeah, I think when we first signed up for this MOU with Praful, we had to make Praful quite aware that we’ve got to tell the story of the people of the resettlement camp. The, the man who owns the shop in Leytonstone, you know, the, the guy who worked a double shift at the airport at night, through, for his children or xxxx did a shift in the cash and carry in the daytime. These are the Ugandan Asians that we want to represent and tell the story of. Er, so yeah, I think we are aware of that as well. I can certainly see um, your observations in terms of Praful and the core committee, does seem xxxx…

I mean he’s a lovely guy, when I went there, really I realise he used to study with my sister.

[laughs] Yeah.

I brought my sister up and I said look your colleague is here! [laughs].

He’s one hell of a character, I tell you that, he’s really xxxx xxxx…

He was xxxx xxxx he wanted me to organise the meetings, but they all are about five thirty, five or six o clock. And I can’t make it. In, er, from Hounslow to go all the way there, I’ve got my meetings as well to attend.

Of course.

Which is, I think, my choice because I do charity work and voluntary work…

That’s and that’s your priority.

Yeah. That’s er…

I think er, you know, it, it’s just, it is quite important to, er, and I, I think the reason I addressed that for you is not for the point of the interview or…

No, no, no.

It’s really to make sure you’re aware that what we do with this, will not…

No, I’m sure, I’m sure…

Xxxx xxxx.

I , no, but I would like, I, I tell you what, I will give you, I did oral history project about er, eighty nine, ninety (1989, 1990). And I recorded stories of people. That’s xxxx.

Xxxx xxxx.

I’ve got, I’ve got one lady, I can hear her story…and I can take you to her, she’s ninety now, eighty nine, ninety.

If you could help me…

I’ll take you to her, er, she was…do not, believe it or not, she was er, er, you know my, because I was one of the youngest, this er, there’s a huge age gap of nineteen years between my elder brother xxxx to me. And the things that happened, his time, when my mum got married and she was living in this er, my dad’s uncle’s house, and there was a little girl there, and my mum always said, her name was Amita, and my mum always said, that er, uncle’s wife used to ill treat her. And um, she was mixed race, Muslim father, Muslim Pakistani father, and black mother. And she was ill treated. And, do you know what, when I went to, when I did this work, I had to say stop, because she took my dad’s name. I did, I’d never seen her. Like I said, you know because of that age gap, that nineteen year gap, I had never seen her. I was somewhere else, brought up, I had heard of her from my mum, never seen her. And she took my dad’s name, I said “cut!” And I said to her, “you know you are talking about my father?” “Oh!” she said to me, she said “you’re xxxx daughter?” You know, my father’s, I said “yes.” And she, she was giving the story how she was treated by er, Asian people, because she was half caste. And how she, felt at home here in England because she was xxxx xxxx. I’ve got that history, er, and I still support her.

Xxxx wonderful.

She thinks the world of me. Because…

Xxxx, if you, if she’s come forward xxxx short interview, um, or even just be sitting down, chatting with her, or if not…

She can do the interview with you, and I’ll give you her, I’ll give you her tape. Um, but promise me you’ll give it back to me.

Yeah, what I’m going, um, what I’m going to do is, um, once we’ve finished xxxx…

It’s one of the old tapes, you know.

Yeah, completely. What I’ll do is once we’ve done, I’ve got one more question left, we’ll stop the recorder, and then, I mean, I’m going to sort of perhaps wrap it up, because I appreciate you’re giving me a lot of your time…

Xxxx don’t worry about me, xxxx enough…

I’m doing, yeah, of course, exactly you’re bored now [laughs], we’ve xxxx xxxx. But what we’ll do is, we do have an online archive, um, for photographs and audio. Um, so really, I mean, I won’t take anything off you tonight, but because…

Yeah, I’ll have a look for them.

Yeah, exactly, and I want you to feel comfortable. And also, what I’d like to do is bring paperwork that you can sign, so that when I do, what I will have to do, I will have to take it away and scan it in the office.

Yes.

But I can promise you I’ll give it back to you within twenty four hours. And you’ll have the receipt, and then we’ll bring it back, so you’ll know if it’s gone missing. So as long as you can trust us with it, um, and also, I’d like to bring a protective bag with me, rather than just take it and stick it in my bag.

Sure.

So we’ll organise that, perhaps, afterwards. I’m going to touch on the last question now, um, it’s [laughs], it’s a question I always, it’s a default question I always put in towards the end, and it’s um, your opportunity perhaps to send out a message to a certain individual who I know, You’re probably sick of his name, it’s Mr Amin. Um, if I, if Mr Amin was sitting here now…

Who, Idi Amin?

Idi, yeah. What would your message be to him, in terms of the way he treated your people, in terms of what happened with the legacy, um, do you think you’d have words for him?

I’m just going to tell you about Sufi and I, um, xxxx.

Yeah, the um, last king of Scotland.

The Last King Of Scotland, my husband, my son bought me the ticket, and he said “mum, you must go and see this movie”, and we went. Sufi and I went, and the moment the actor came as Idi Amin, I think the thirty seven years of frustration which we had never discussed with anybody, or talked about it, amongst ourselves. Brought my husband and I was, some but the truth of it, it’s not that, yeah, there was a lot of truth in the movie. We cried throughout, both of us. It brought a lot of emotions out, it brought a lot of feelings out, and I think it did me a lot of good because I had hidden lot of feelings, lot what happened in the family, what happened when we left, we had no money, you know, things-, it was hard. And it did. My message to Idi Amin would be; if you are alive today, I would be, I would like to ruin you…and I would like to do things to you that you did it to people, and see how you feel.

Xxxx, I think the phrase is, a taste of his own medicine.

Yes, taste of your own medicine.

Hmm.

Yes er, it destroyed families, but then he destroyed his own wives, he destroyed his own, so he was a ruthless person. He destroyed families, he destroyed emotions, he…destroyed everything people had in just one little speech of his.

You, I think, the one thing I will say though actually is um, if, if, it’s not necessarily vengeance, but if it gives you any sort of comfort, it is, I think when you do eventually go to the afterlife, hopefully in a few years time [laughs], I think you’re going to be surrounded by your friends and family, I am pretty sure that Idi Amin dies a very lonely…

Well, we heard that yes, yeah. I know, I know…

And it might not make up [phone starts ringing] for what he did to you, but er, I think that’s a sign of what kind of person he is. Please. [phone continues to ring]

Xxxx call you back yeah? No, I’ll call you back in a minute [hangs up phone].

Um yeah, so I think he eventually got his comeuppance. I mean I know the…

Yeah, he left, he er, I know he was at peace with himself you know.

I don’t think so, xxxx.

Somebody who is that cruel and xxxx…

I don’t think anyone could be xxxx…

Does such horrible things, if he could eat his wife’s heart, what’s Asian community to him?

Yeah, it’s true, it’s true. You were just another victim…

Yes.

Of a man who was quite ruthless.

Victim of the British government, because he was British government’s puppet.

It’s true, it’s true. Um…

So that’s what it was.

I think [laughs]…

And it back fired xxxx xxxx.

Well this is my point, the thing about you, we mentioned it earlier about the British colonial powers and what they did, the way they ravaged the, large territories across the world.

Hmm.

Er, I mean er, especially through that film, and I know as you say, it’s not completely historically accurate, but certain aspects are true, and what I found was really prevalent in the film, was quite shocking, was the role Britain had after independence. You know, it seemed like a very faux independence, it seemed like the old colonial powers still…

British plays games with it’s colonies. Britain, just feels that because they were a powerful nation, they can walk over everything. And that’s what they’ve been doing…

And got away with it for quite a long while…

They did it in India. [laughs]. They did it everywhere.

I think if we’re going to list of the countries we’ve affected as a colony then [laughs], I won’t get home tonight will I?!

Absolutely!

Unfortunately, you know, it’s not necessarily a British disease, it’s a colonial disease, because you know, the British colonial powers have gone, but who moved in, the next power comes along, and once America dies, the next one will come in.

Of course, of course.

Unfortunately it’s this is a story that…

It’s an ongoing thing isn’t it.

It’s a story of our history as a people isn’t it?

Yes.

Actually, I think I’m, I’m going to turn off the recording device now. Thank you ever so much for your time.

You’re welcome, I hope, I hope you got something xxxx, it’s very distorted.

I’m going to tell you something now, um, and I promise you, I’m not exaggerating now, I’m going to turn it off…

[Ends]

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Ashifa Dhillon

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: ??

Language: English

Venue: ??

Name of interviewer: Greig Campbell

Length of interview: approx. 113 minutes

Transcribed by: Claire Days

Archive Ref: 2013_esch_UgAs_13

2013_esch_UgAs_14

2013_esch_UgAs_14

…remember the headmaster very well, but I understand that he got killed out there by XXX, didn’t he?

Who?

The headmaster.

No no no, not him, it was a family member. He was uh… he came here for the education. When he was a teacher, an English teacher, he was my English teacher in Jinja. He came, got transferred, the government schools, but from Kampala to Jinja. Um. He was a really tough XXX, as far as English was concerned. Very, very particular about pronunciation, what the day is, this and that.

Sort of, very old school, sort of?

Yeah, more grammatical English than the colloquial terminology, so. He, he was the headmaster of uh, oh…

Demonstration school.

The demonstration school in Kampala again, when we have to apply for her, and that’s the same school. So she was forcing me and after some persuasion, she got the admission at that same school. And next to it was the teacher training school, this is where I lived. And next to it was the Uganda radio, and the National Theatre, and the African Organization Union, and Kampala Sports Club, purely whites, and then obviously, we would supply there. Um, later on, it was open for all, I mean that’s the vicinity we were living in Kampala then.

See it sounds like you were right in the middle of um, the capital, I mean it’s very, it’s not quite the upbringing you would have described, sort of the rural areas… do you remember being brought up in the city?

I do, I remember we used to, in the evenings, we would go for a walk. And I remember, I mean I don’t know the name, but I remember a fountain, and it was a massive fountain, and in the evening there used to be different kinds of lights, and we used to make a point of going to see that. And that was beautiful. I remember the tall buildings, again it could be the place where the XXX, I have no idea, but I remember we used to go for a lot of walks. It was a done thing down there, in the evenings everybody used to be out walking, so I remember that. Those fun places… again, I don’t remember the names, or remember the school very well, I remember the uniform I had, which was pink and white gingham skirt, and the white shirt, I remember that.

It would be very fashionable today, gingham!

Yeah, it’s very fashionable, it’s probably why I still wear like wearing them a lot. Um, but yeah, I remember the house that we lived in, uh, and I remember also the, when the problems started, when they were beginning to start, we moved further away from there because I think the, all the… we were more or less like cattle, weren’t we? Yeah, we were cattle. And we moved a bit further out, do you remember? We went and stayed in that daughter’s house?

No, that- that was later on, that was very much later when people were given…

That’s what I’m talking about, when the problems had just started.

My, my friend, American daughter, he was doing cancer research in Uganda, and the American government was pouring in then about a million dollars a year for his research, um. Him being a Jew. So he was in problem. So he was keeping a low profile when the Jews were given… it was so sick, it was thirty days to leave.

Which was earlier as well, wasn’t it?

Obviously, I moved on with him, with my family. He, his family, go on, so we moved there with him. And he was gone, we were there… ah… going all over the east African countries sometimes, so we were away from there for a long time.

You used his house?

Whenever we came back, whatever long I said it was earlier, he shipped here. On American government’s money. Terrible. So we moved into… another – sort of European area, it was. It was isolated from the main city. It was not far from my Uganda fishnets, not far from there. It was hardly about five or ten minutes um… drive.

So it was a… you were in Kampala, um, in terms of growing up, I spoke to your dad about this in terms of… do you remember being different? I mean, do you remember being…

Freer.

Freer, yeah?

A lot freer, yeah. Um, obviously being here, we didn’t understand about the problems and what was going on, but before the trouble started, I think that, you know, I suppose it’s the same as all children; I mean, nowadays, children know that “oh, that’s an African person, that’s an English person”, you know they can differentiate because that’s the way the world is now.

They’re programmed to differentiate and divide.

Yes. But we didn’t, I mean, we used to have servants, and my mum used to have an afternoon siesta, my dad would be back at work, we used to be outside playing with the uh, our house servants’ children, eating with them, you know, they used to make XXX, and I specifically remember eating with them after we had our lunch, and it was no different, no “you’re dirty or oh…” it was nothing like that. So much nicer. I think it’s a very simple way of life, even though it was rich in a different way, and that’s what I love about their… and the freedom. The freedom was there, and the communities mixed in so much, you know, dividing was… holidays were all celebrated together, it wasn’t like “this is our XXX, it has nothing to do with you”, everybody did it, but here it was just so different. And my youngest one, he goes to a private school in Buffer’s Hill, and he’s like, it’s a Catholic school, and there’s a lot of Muslims there, there’s a lot of Sikhs there as well, um… but he said “why don’t we celebrate Diwali at our school”, and it’s so hard to explain to a little kid that you’re not going to celebrate in school, you live in the UK…

At a secular Catholic school.

Yeah, so that’s, that’s a difference, and I always wish that they could have had, you know, they could have had that one experience back in Africa.

A bit of freedom isn’t it. Simplicity of life, isn’t it, I suppose?

Essentially. And I don’t know if it has anything to do with the child being care-free, but with me, I always felt… I don’t know, a bit different, because I always- I mean if you asked my brother two years younger than me, I don’t think he remembers anything at all. I always felt that there’s more to life, and even out in Africa always thought that there is more that I had to do, um, and when the problems started, I remember hearing – I remember we used to have a guy that used to patrol our house at night time, everybody used to have that, not so special such a thing to have, I remember him being attacked by the army. Him being shot. And my mum and dad shouting “stay still, don’t move, and don’t turn your lights on”, because otherwise obviously they could then see the reflections into the door and could start shooting. But I remember all that. I remember having to… um… yeah, when we left, it was me, my mum, my brother, and my youngest brother was just a couple of weeks old, you see. I remember our trip to Entebbe and we were sitting in the coach, and our coach got stopped. And the army got on, and they literally went round poking people- hm- hm- like this, just like you know, just jessing people hoping to evoke them and sort of, you know, start something so they would have an opportunity to shoot, I don’t know. They did get some people out, and they were on the floor, both knees, hands up, I remember all that. I remember being really, really scared thinking “it can’t, it can’t end for us here”. I remember thinking those kinds of things at that age. Um, I remember at the airport as well, uh, that a lady, a very, very heavily pregnant lady- we were only allowed to take a certain amount of gold. But people tried to smuggle that as much as they could, I mean, it’s just human nature. She had a lot on her, and she had bangles and bangles and gold necklaces and whathaveyou, and they took her in, and you know, and they searched her, and they took everything off her, and then they hit her, they beat her up. I remember seeing her on the floor crying. That’s how bad it was out there. And for me as a child to remember all that, you know, and my kids are all “no way, mum” you know, you can’t do that, and well, that was Africa, and well, you could. You could get away with murder out there.

Especially in those days as well, I mean, you know, those times. I mean, it sounds quite horrific for a six year old-was it?

Six years old, yeah.

Um, do you um… you’ve talked about your relations with uh, the Africans before the tensions started as a child growing up in Kampala. You said you used to play with them. Did you ever feel different because of your ethnicity? I’ve asked about whether you felt different, and you never saw a dividing line.

Never. Never, even when the problems started, um, I think there was so much XXX, uh, amongst some of the house and servants, they would come and tell us, you know, that there was a problem. I remember very vaguely that they would sometimes warn that there was going to be a problem, or you know, to stay indoors and pull your shutters down and don’t go out, and things like that. I remember those kinds of things, though they didn’t – I suppose they feared for their lives as well as they did for ours, um, Idi Amin didn’t give a damn.

Yeah, he had proved previously that he was quite willing to aim at his own people, let alone people in a bigger community. Um, do you remember, I mean, the actual uh, I’m guessing you were six years old, the average six year old doesn’t watch the nine o’clock news, but do you remember the day of the declaration? Do you remember… do you have a sense of that? Perhaps a change of the environment growing up? After the declarations was there a certain increased tension?

I.. I only picked up the tension from my parents because all of a sudden, you know, everything was being packed away, and I couldn’t really understand what was going on, and I don’t think my parents really told us that, you know, how do you tell a six year old, you know, you can’t. You just say “don’t worry”, you know, “we’re just going to a better place” and that was the end of it. But I think with me looking around and seeing that I knew a bit more than what they were telling me, and obviously, um, I speak to the house servants, and ask them, and you can hear them talking amongst themselves, so yeah, obviously you pick things up. But I just played dumb for my mum and dad’s sake so they didn’t have to worry about what I know. And I did know what was going on. I did… I was conscious – obviously even in the um, city if you were walking around... uh… if the army- the bizarre thing about it is if you see a truck of the army, and you could “oh look”, and all that thing that kids do, “oh my God it’s the army”, get really excited, but when you weren’t allowed to do that, you had to stop, exactly where you were, and stand and just face them. And it was almost like you had to salute them, you weren’t allowed to point at them, because it you pointed at them, they’ll come and ask you, they’ll give you problems, if you’re unlucky, they shoot you.

Yeah, don’t draw any attention to yourself.

No.

Do you, um, in terms of, um, when you were, obviously the tension increased you moved home since you sensed a reaction, but could you perhaps go into a bit more detail about the process by which you left? Your dad told me you were booked on charter flights, you were briefly official refugees, yeah. But you still obviously experienced certain issues as you went to the airport. You just mentioned that, you went to the airport, was it coach, or was it private care, or…?

Coach. We went on coach. I remember we went on the coach, and I remember my dad followed us down in a separate car with his cousin. Um, I was scared because I picked up the tension from my mum, so I was scared because I knew that something was not right, um… and she, she just prayed all the way down there, I could hear her, and I thought “right, okay, something’s not right here”, so she prayed all the way down there, and when we got to the – I remember when we got to the airport, apart from going through customs, and what happened to that woman, but I do remember walking up to the airplane and thinking to myself “wow, that’s a massive, massive bird.” We got on there, and as soon as the engines started, I just remember my mum just saying “thank you very much, we’re out of it”, but obviously, my dad, at the top of the airport, just waving us goodbye and not really understanding why he wasn’t coming with us. But at the same time too scared to ask my mum because I didn’t want to hear what she might say. So, yeah, and then the next thing we know, we’re in the UK, I don’t remember anything about the flight, don’t remember arriving to the UK, um, just remember the time we stayed with my mum’s brother in Gant’s Hill, and being all… being put into an English school, which is all very, very exciting because I went to school there with my cousin, and again, having to deal with a whole new curriculum really, um… The way that the school was, and really just getting sort of tucking your feet under and just getting on with it because that was it, you had to, you had no choice, there was nothing after this, you had to get used to this and get on with it now.

It’s amazing how resilient children can actually be, isn’t it?

Yeah, yeah.

I suppose it, I mean, for me, as a child, I never went through the prejudice that you went through, but any new experience I just sort of saw as a new adventure…

Exactly, exactly. You know if I look at my kids now, um, when I look at the youngest one, it’s… he’s very sensitive, and it’s almost like he’s got a very wise head on his shoulders as my oldest one, if you ever have a conversation with my oldest one, I listen to XXX XXX XXX and I just thing “where is he getting all this from”, um, and I felt like that as well. I felt like too old and wise for my age. Because I knew what was going on, but I never spoke about it, um. Because I didn’t want- I didn’t want to- I knew my parents were going through so much as it is, I mean, having to give up everything in Africa, our whole lives down in Africa to come to the UK, and then start all over again, with kids, it’s not easy. It’s not easy at all.

Of course.

So I just kept quiet and I just went along with it just to make life easier.

Yeah, yeah, you were obviously quite burdened for a six year old. Did you um – in terms of coming to England, uh, and starting again, did you um, have any other Ugandan friends? Ugandan Asians community you had the use of?

No. Just me.

You had family over here though, you said that you…

Uh, yeah, I mean, when we stayed – I mean my mum and dad, my mum’s brother, he would have been in the UK for quite a while, so they often associate themselves with Africa, as far as I was concerned, they were residents of the UK, and I had to get to know my cousin because I hadn’t seen her ever, and so they were like new family members to me. Uh, so it was a case of getting to know them, and they getting to make friends with me as well, so I had no connection to Africa at all, and anybody who would have come here.

And I asked you a question earlier about whether you felt different in Kampala as an Asian uh, Ugandan Asian. Did you seem to feel different in England in Gant’s Hill as a, what I suppose technically would be a refugee, weren’t you? You were newcomer, certainly.

I didn’t immediately, no.

You didn’t have that sense or…

I didn’t have that sense at all. Um, my adjustment at the school, I went to Gary’s, just in Gant’s Hill, because my cousin was going there. Um, I found that to be quite easy, um, the people were lovely, and I suppose the time being the seventies, you know, for youngsters, it was quite easy, um, I think as I grew up, as I got to know what was- how – you know – brutal people can be as far as being racist, and not that they were directed at me, I got away with murder as a youngster because yeah, I never – everybody knew I was Asian, um, and I was sticking around with skinheads and things like that… My dad would’ve killed me! You know, because all my friend, he’s doing this, and it’s like “hey, you’re alright”, and I’m like “God, you’re so ignorant”, you know, and this is me at the age of, you know, fourteen, fifteen years old, um, and I was into the music and the XXX and the ska and whathaveyou. And it’s just a time, it’s just then. And I used to see sometimes how they used to pick on people, on Asian people, and beat them up, and insult their eyes and XXX at them, and I used to get mad at them, you know, “I can’t believe you did that, I can’t believe you’re so ignorant, I can’t believe you’re so stupid, are all you white people stupid” you know. And I started to see what was wrong with you, you just don’t care. You just don’t get it. And I just never, ever, ever thought that I could make them understand, but that was just… a part of my life that came and went, so as I grew up, I adjusted, I just embraced everything as it came my way. But I found that as a child, obviously I made, I’ve made solid friends, um, I was allowed to go outside and play with them. Oh yeah, go out to play at eight or nine o’clock, because it was safe, you know, in those days, let’s go XXX around the block and play skipping down the road, my mom would never come out and say to my uncle you know “where is she”, you know, it was fine. And all of a sudden… I think from maybe about ’77 to ’78, it was like “no, you can’t go out front anymore”. Because big times had changed, things had changed, I remember the National Front used to march down this road, you know, we’ve got, you know, so many Jewish people living down this road. And they used to march down outside, XXX you know these National Front people would be singing, you know who they were, so you look out – you couldn’t – because you knew what they were all about, you know, you used to actually see some of them walking down with their… the white masks, you know, almost, you know, is that the Ku Klux Klan come back to the UK? It was awful, but I’ve seen all that when it came down here I just couldn’t understand what was going on. And then comparing it to my life in Africa and them being bitter that I’ve had to face all this here, and for us to have been there… I wouldn’t have to face anything like that.

Life would have been a bit simple.

Yeah, I would have had a normal upbringing, really.

Yeah, the upbringing was over here, your parents talked about it as well. You’re aware, I mean, so you did arrive in England at quite a tense time, for your age, also for England so- in terms of society. Quite a tense time. The economy was not very integratist, and quite a lot of racist tension around the country. Um, when- at what point did you feel like England had become home? Did you ever, is there a point where you remember that, or was that just a natural process?

It is a natural process. I don’t think there was ever a day that I stopped and said to myself “yes, this is now my home”. Up to this day, to this minute, I’ve never actually said that. I haven’t. Um, of course, it is my home, because I don’t know any different, I’ve been – I have been back to Africa, it’s very different now, being brought up in the UK, it’s a very, very fast life here, very, very fast, uh, you do not stop until you drop, literally. You go into Africa, and you’re like “hm, what can I do now?” it is so slow, it drives me mad, so I could never go back there to live there because I could never go backwards. For someone to come from Kenya to this country and start picking up the speed, it’s probably a lot easier than to go back and slow down. I couldn’t do it.

So you said to me although you never chose England as a home, it almost chose you, it formed you from a very young age.

Yeah, I had to embrace it, just move along with changes, just had to, otherwise, you know, if you’ve XXX back again, you just become very, very different person.

Yeah, completely, completely, it affects you, the way you’re formed as a person. Um, so you um, you’ve spoken about sort of, your first impressions at school, and hanging out with your cousin, and hanging around your skinhead friends [laughs], it paints a wonderful picture, uh… what were your first impressions, generally about England?

Cold. It was cold, it was very, very foggy when we came here, um, and it was very, very cold. I remember the first thing that my uncle did was take us, it used to be called uh, CMA, was it CMA back then?

Yes, it was.

He took us there and sort of helped –

CMA.

Yeah, he took us there, and put us on a coat, and I was like “what is this?”, you know, “you come from such a lovely country, and now all of a sudden I have to cover myself up in the cold”. But I just remember it just being really miserable and cold.

So you didn’t bring that jacket from Uganda, did you?

No, unfortunately not. [laughs]

Um, so um, did you um, let’s talk about your upbringing here. You went to school, primary school. Where did you go to secondary school?

XXX County for Girls, which is just next to Valentine’s Heart, which is another Valentine’s school. Yeah, I was there, that was an all girls’ school, and I think that, and the year after I stayed, they became a mixed school, and other Valentine’s school. Yeah, I was there, and again, you know, obviously, I’m the only Asian in the class. The only Asian in the class, and then there were, I think, half of the year another Asian girl came, I think her name was Sukji, and I remember her, typically Asian, middle parting too, and I was “who the hell is that?”, and there is my XXX hair. I imagine my mum used to get angry with me, you know, “don’t tie your hair up” and things like that, I’d walk around the corner and do my ponytail, you know…

I get the impression she was a bit of a nightmare as a teenager?

Was I? He probably shouldn’t answer that.

No comment.

No comment, yeah. A bit rebellious, I think, because I think for me to deal with the east and west, it was very, very difficult. You grew like that, but I think it was for…

[indistinct chatter from a fourth person in the room]

Yes, of course. I suppose it’s just – in a way, you, you moved to a new environment, you kind of want to fit in as well, don’t you? So you want to wear what all the other girls were wearing.

Well, no it’s not. I mean, clothes wise, don’t get me wrong, my parents never restricted me. But I think it was, if it was just me, I think I wasn’t… I wasn’t – I felt that I didn’t have an opportunity to express myself, um, and the times were so different, you know, if your parents said “you can’t do this”, then “why can’t we just”… “I’ve said it, that’s it”. You know? But for my kids, if they said “mum, why can’t we do that?”, I’ll give them a whole full spiel, you know, “this is the reason why, and that, and that, and that, and that, now tell me if I’m being unreasonable”. So you know, I’m doing that because I was never given that, and that’s because my parents were never given that by their parents. It’s just, you know, um, but for me, I was very frustrated, you know, I felt very, very trapped, I had my English friends, and I had my Asian life at home, yeah, my friends all went out, I wasn’t allowed to do that, um, you know they would come to school and they’d say “oh, we did this, we did that”, and I’m thinking “yeah, okay”, and I just ended up listening about it. I was never bitter about it, but I felt like I missed out on so much, um, and up to a certain degree, I became a bit rebellious, um, but not to a scale that I was a nightmare.

Going off track. I suppose, I mean, it adds to – you already said, you know, you’ve always had this sense growing up, and even as an adult, there is always that ‘what could have been’, like that gap in Africa, where your life was taken away from you, and then you get here, and you kind of, you’re in this western environment where you’re not quite, perhaps, enjoying the same things as the white kids are.

It’s a freedom.

So again, you kind of feel like that’s a gap in your life as well.

Massive.

So you might have felt kind of stuck in between.

It’s stuck in between, but I think the whole thing about it was the freedom, um, not getting my freedom, and I’m sure I would have had it if I had still stayed out there, and that was, to me, just trying to break out all the time, because I wanted my freedom, and I couldn’t fully get it here, and even though I understood why, I was always up on the “woe is me, why me”. You know, so as a child, I suppose, when you’re battling so many things, you can be quite… quite um, sensitive, and you can… yeah, and it’s always about “I’m the victim”, XXX sort of thing, whenever I think about it now, it’s kind of pathetic, but there you go. [laughs]

I think you could have, I would probably say every teenager on this planet has said “why, woe is me” at one point.

Exactly.

“Everyone else can do everything except me!” [laughs] Um, you sort of, um, you’ve talked about now, perhaps, the Ugandan Asian experience in general, um, and as I’ve said to you before, you were, you know, part of this project is really about celebration of the Ugandan Asian community’s achievements, and it seems to me you’re very proud of your family, not only what they’ve done in Uganda, but also the way they’ve come to England and basically started again, I suppose, and fought to establish this life that you’ve um, enjoyed growing up.

Absolutely. It’s really strange you said that because I mean, this morning I had a conversation with my son about it, because he’s fully aware that I’m doing all this, and uh, my husband, my husband was talking to him about you know, the economy, and you know, you’ve got your own business in the fashion industry, you know… there’s businesses out there that have been running for hundreds of years that are going down, you know, we’re just a small fish in a big sea, you know, we don’t know what’s going to happen tomorrow, we’ve got to pull our weight, you know… And his family is from India, and his family is very, his grandparents had it very different to mine, whereas I’ve come from riches, and not only financially, not only through industry, but through family, whereas him, his grandparents haven’t. They’ve come from poverty and a lot of segregation. So he doesn’t understand, um, what I’m all about. I don’t think he ever would do, because he’s never experienced it, and obviously, like I said, you know, your parents always pass on what they’ve been taught, so I think if his parents never got it, then they would never pass it on to him anyway. But he did say to my son anyway that you know, I suppose, you know, uh, “times have changed, and your mum- your mum’s grandfather was a mayor of Nairobi, and she’s come from riches, I can’t let her down”, and it’s almost like, you know, I’m not that sort of person, I’m not a material person. To me, richness is your family, not money, you know, and he doesn’t seem to understand that. So, it’s… to my son, if he turned around and said to me, you know, but that’s not the point. And he said exactly what I said to you, “richness is having a family, you can live without money, but as long as you’ve got the family, that’s all that matters”, and that’s what my parents taught me, and that’s what my grandparents taught us. So for him to be saying that, it does make me very, very proud that he’s going to pass that on to the next generation.

That’s amazing, um, to see your child at such a young age have that appreciation, to have a pretty balanced perspective.

Yeah. Well, he’s only fourteen years old, but you know.

I still, I’m still a child of twenty four, and I don’t think I’ve got such a balanced perspective of the world, I mean that’s… uh, certainly advanced for his age. Um, do you – in terms of, um, your identity, I mean, how do you see yourself? Do you see yourself as British Ugandan Asian, do you see someone who used to be a migrant who is now fully become a British citizen, I mean, how do you see yourself and your cultural identity?

British Ugandan Asian. Yeah, that’s… that’s me, because that’s my roots. That is, Uganda is my roots, and um, nah, I’ve always had a British passport, yes, I am British, but, I’m from Uganda. Yeah.

And do you, um, in terms of your children’s identity, you seem to have… they, obviously have a different upbringing to you, they didn’t have those first six years in a very exotic, um, sure, thousands of miles away. Um, do you think they are aware of what their grandparents and…

My son, yeah. I would love for you to meet him, he- he I very passionate, he’s very close to my parents, and he does have long conversations with my dad, and I said to him, you know, when I was here on Tuesday, and I said to him “did you know that granddad used to actually converse not in English”, “yeah I know”, and I said “how the hell do you know”, and he said as if I only just found out now, as if this is something that me and my dad never spoke of, he goes “mum, well you know, I just speak to granddad quite a lot”, and I go “yeah, that’s very cavalier” and I’m thinking “oh my God”, so he… they know the history about it, they understand, and my son always says to me, you know, how XXX to granddad for leaving everything there. And then he’ll calm me down, and then he’ll start again and say “because that is the most- hardest thing to do”, as opposed to setting up and starting a business, you know, which is again, referring to conversations he was having with his father last night, um, and he goes “I don’t think anybody would ever really understand that unless you’ve been through it”. And he goes “I don’t understand it either, but I appreciate it, because I’ve been brought up listening to it, so I can understand what you’re coming from.”

To have worked so hard to achieve something and for it to be taken away from you, and then to pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and start that journey again, and then to achieve that level…

And on the children, it’s so much harder…

And in different environments as well, I mean, it’s one thing learning the process of making money in east Africa if you’re part of that culture, to be suddenly dumped, you know, so many thousands of miles away, and leave that culture with nothing, and starting again, I mean, it’s a different, you know, it’s almost as if you’ve become rich for a second time, but in a very different way, and that’s even more admirable.

Yes it is, yeah, which is what my son always says, and my daughter as well.

Why do you think, um, the Ugandan Asian um, community is such a success story?

I think, I think people have kept the whole – situation alive. They – and because of the community that we had back there, it doesn’t matter what’s happened after ’72, where people have gone, I think a lot of people have made a lot of effort to keep in touch with one another. I mean, I’m on those, you know, on Facebook, the Ugandan Asian ’72 and Asians who’ve left the exodus, and blah blah blah… When you actually read um, what they, and how they keep in touch, I mean, one guy is in Texas, and he keeps in touch with a friend in the UK, and they try to meet up, you know, once a year. I think that’s fantastic, um, and I think it’s down to the people, individuals, for keeping it alive, because obviously, what they had back there, I don’t think they’ll ever be able to get back.

But they need to fill the gap somehow, and that’s opening methods of communication…

Yeah, that’s all the talk about- they go back, they go back to Africa, they get the photographs, they come back and share it, and they share it about the past history, and they share about today, and posting old pictures, I mean I do as well. You know, it’s just a trigger of memories, and a trigger of- I mean, I’ve made friends with so many people who knew, who know my dad, and I said you know, “I want to accept you on the Facebook page so you can keep in touch with other people as well”. What a great way to keep in touch with people if you can’t hop on a plane and go and see them, that’s the next best way.

Definitely. I mean, and back in Britain, um… Because I mean, it is true, I mean the British Ugandan Asian community seems reasonably successful, I’m sure this is probably equivalent to the great you in Canada, sitting opposite to you in Canada, saying why is this such a success story in Canada, and America, and Australia, and all the Scandinavian countries, I mean, why do you think they are so successful at business and, I think culturally they’ve adapted so quickly to Britain, it’s not just about the celebration, what… why do you think that the Ugandan Asian community is revered, even amongst, sort of, the Tory party, who are pretty anti immigrant, they still hold you up as this pedestal of “this is the way immigration should be done, this is”… you know, people argue that for all the anti-arguments against immigrants coming here, and taking our money, taking our lives, taking our jobs, these ridiculous arguments that are never actually proven.

Yeah, I mean that still happens now with the Polish that are here.

Exactly.

Now it’s sort of…

Even people would traditionally argue against immigrants would still have to put their hands up and say “actually, Ugandan Asians, they did work out”.

Prince Charles said it.

Yes, he did.

I mean, I’ve seen, listen, I’ll go straight down to the basics, where as far as I’m concerned, I’ve seen how hard my grandparents worked. I’ve seen how hard my mum and dad worked. I’ve, I’ve been at work as well, and obviously, I worked six years ago when I had my youngest one, you know, if I had to go back to work tomorrow, I could do it like this. It’s what we’ve all been brought up with. I don’t know, I think the Asian community, I’m not put… I don’t know what it is... I mean, I as a person am not a quitter. It doesn’t have anything to do with being proud or anything to do with that, it’s just to do with survival. Um, we’d do anything to you know, for the sake of our family, we don’t quit. A lot of them have got business minds as well, a lot of Asian people are very business minded. I don’t know what it is. I mean, everyone that I speak to, every Asian person I speak to, they are all… want to do something really good for themselves to make it easier, life for themselves.

I think you sort of… I mean, it’s one of those questions without really an answer, is it.

There isn’t an answer, everyone will give you a different answer.

What I will say is, I mean, the two things you touched on seem to be quite predominant, um and that is one: hard work. And that’s not just the Ugandan Asian community, but the Asian community as a whole, most certainly. I mean, growing up, I always remember Mr Shahm, the guy who ran the corner shop at the end of my street, I mean, I used to… My dad would get home from work and 5:30 and pick up the paper from him, so he’d open the bar for him, and I’d sort of stick my head out the window at 9:00 as I went to bed as an eight year old, and then you’d see him turn the lights off at half-nine. So these guys were working seventeen hours a day. I think it is hard work, but also, you just said to me, yeah, the entrepreneurial spirit that a lot of your community brought from Uganda seemed to allow, ready themselves a lot quicker when they did get to Britain, they did want to start their own business, they had that sort of, almost entrepreneurial sort of knowledge and that spirit to make money.

And they will do anything. They’re not like “nah, I won’t do that”, they do anything. And I think also, it’s got a lot to do with upholding the family name, that’s I think has got a massive part to do with- I mean, my son says to me “I want to make my grandparents proud”, and he says, “my grandparents”, and I don’t say “my grandparents”, I say “my parents”, so it’s always sort of… we skip a generation going backwards. And I go “what about me?” and he goes “no, you’re alright, I want to go out and make my grandmother and my grandfather proud of me.” And I thought that was strange because I would say that to my mum and dad, I want to make my grandparents proud. So, it is, it is to do with the family name as well. Uh, and I think it’s nice that some of it – well, yes some of the kids still have that, because a lot of people don’t know their family history, they’re not interested. And it’s frightening because we find that with the next generation, a lot of them will go back to their roots, and you know, you won’t hear about the Ugandan Asians of 1972, it will just be washed right… Because the next generation are just more interested in what… there’s a lot of people out there that aren’t going to give a damn.

Yeah, there’s that gap. I mean, to be honest, you’re probably the third or fourth person I’ve met who’s sort of, went through the process as a child, but were sort of like, the next generation of their parents who went fully went for the XXX expression as adults. And um, I think you’re not the first person to say that there’s a fear, um, they all seem to acknowledge that their children broaden the gap. I mean I think that you’re the first one to tell me they’ve got children who are actually aware of it.

Oh, my kids are, I make sure.

But see, that’s because you’re quite unique within the community, so since you’re driven…

I do, I do, I mean, not so long ago, probably last October, XXX exiled Asians from Uganda; it was just a XXX for now…

A TV documentary, I think.

Yeah, it was on a Sunday morning, and I recorded it on my planner, and you watch that, and if you watch half an hour, and if you understand where I come from, I made them watch it. And it’s still on there, my son still hasn’t seen it, but he’s intending to see it. I would have loved for him to see it, and he knows it.

Not getting birthday presents until… [laughs]

Sit him down on the sofa.

Let’s talk about you going back to, um, Africa. Um, when was the last time you went back, uh, as an adult perhaps?

Oh my God, I went back in uh, 1986?

1987

1987? 1987 I went back, yeah.

Did you go back together?

On my own.

You went on your own? Wow. And what was that experience like?

Um, I was in Tanzania, um… No. It was just not me. It was um… Obviously, in the UK, uh, I guess life goes too fast and I’m not – I don’t sit and do nothing, I’m a get-up-and-go-er, I have to keep myself busy, and there again, house servants, you got up and breakfast was ready for you XXX you know, you go out, do what you need to do, come home, and lunch is ready for you, it used to drive me mad. You know, I just felt brain dead when I was out there. I didn’t enjoy it. Loved the weather, went to Mumbasa, did all that, loved the weather, but yeah, it definitely wasn’t my cup of tea any more.

Sounds a little bit claustrophobic almost, compared to the freedom you had had, growing up in England, perhaps, or as a child.

Exactly, exactly.

And when was the first time you went back to Uganda, or have you been back?

I have not been back.

Right I remember. Do you think that’s… do you think you need to do that?

No.

It’s not something you would entertain?

No. I’ve seen my photographs. My dad went back a few years ago, and I saw the photographs, and um… it broke my heart.

Really?

Yeah, it did. Seeing the houses and thinking “well, that’s not our house any more”, um I don’t want to go back and see the way it is now, I want to remember the way I remembered it, and just keep the fond memories and leave it at that. Don’t want to go back now.

And how about your children, do you think you’d want them to see where their mum and their grandparents come from, or do you just not see it as the same place any more?

It’s not. There’s no- there’s no point in me taking them back to something that’s totally changed, um, because it’s not my mum and dad’s, my grandparents’ house any more. Um, they’ve seen the photographs, um, and I’ll take them back to Africa, to experience the whole African lifestyle, but… as I say, I wouldn’t take them back for anything else. I would definitely wouldn’t take them to Uganda. I definitely wouldn’t take them.

Yeah, that’s fair enough. Um, and do you often imagine what your life would have been if you had stayed there? And do you think you would have been a very different person, or…?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, definitely, I would have been a very different person. Don’t forget, I was brought up in the UK, um, even though in the, in Africa, um, you know, most of my friends were still British ex-patriots’ kids. Um, I still had a choice there between, you know, the Asian life and mixing with my ethnic difference… I would have…. Obviously I would have a lot more Asian… Here, it’s very, very hard, it is very, very hard, and I think it is hard for the kids as well, even though it’s easy for them, because they don’t know any different, but I see things that children, that my kids don’t understand, and it… I think if they were out in Africa, they would probably XXX with me as well. It’s very, very hard to explain. You ask somebody else the same question, um, they would probably give you the same answer but from a totally different perspective. Um… And I think I would be a lot happier if I was out there as well.

Yeah. I mean the way you described it when you first started the interview, there was a certain, almost, innocence about the place that I…

The innocence of freedom. It is a freedom, you know, you just look at everybody, and there was no… you know… nastiness between anyone at all, you know, you just felt the love in everything. It’s really, really bizarre. XXX in this country, everybody’s out to just knock you out, you know? It’s horrible, horrible country.

Kill or be killed, almost mentality, compared to something with a more… pace... Um, what do you think of, in terms of the commemoration of the Ugandan Asian experience. How much do you think- how should it be celebrated? Because you, as you’ve said, you are quite aware, this could be the last times members of a certain generation can celebrate. Do you think there’s a sense that the community should come together?

A massive reunion. With everyone that could be would be there. I would be great. I think it would be wonderful for my mum and dad, yeah. To be able to see, meet people that they haven’t spoken to since 1972.

Yeah, just try to get that community back together.

I think that would be wonderful, yeah.

Do you think-

That’s the way to celebrate it.

Do you think that’s the greatest, sort of, tragedy of this story, is that you know, I mean, you’ve already told me that you went through quite horrific experiences on the way to the airport, you witnessed servants and people you’re familiar with beaten, be shot, and obviously some noises in the street, and you have to be back to your house, et cetera, but do you think – obviously, that’s a tragedy in itself, but do you think, sort of, the greatest tragedy of this entire story is the fact that, you know, you had an entire community basically ripped apart and sent to the four corners of the globe?

Yeah, he wasn’t God, he had no right to take away my lifestyle. And he did. He did it, you know? Just like that. Nobody should have that right. And that’s what I’m very bitter about.

And with this, sort of, lead on to the final topic that I always touch on, and that is Mr Amin. I mean, I always do XXX, and I don’t know if this might sounds as a preposterous question, I don’t mean to sound jovial, but you know, if you’re sitting in my place now, if you did have that luxury to sit across a table from him, stare him in the eye.

I would shoot him. I would shoot him, yeah.

What would be – before you shoot him – what the message to him, what words… because I do sense this bitterness, there is the anger that’s still there with you, isn’t it?

That has always been there, yeah. I would ask him why. I would ask him who the hell does he think he is. Because he’s not a god, I don’t think anybody – it’s like I’m bitter towards what Hitler did to all the Jews. You know, who the hell was he? I don’t think anybody should have that kind of power, Lord knows what happens when you have that kind of power. And, um, what he did, he did, he had no reason, no right, and that’s what I’m bitter about. Because he took away what was ours. No one should have that right. Nobody.

And you talk about that… that place that’s still got a connection in your heart.

That was our home, yeah.

That place where little six year old XXX used to run around at night.

He basically took my life away. Basically, that’s what he did. And he didn’t give me a choice, I had to come here and make a life for myself as did my parents, and he didn’t have any right to do that at all. None whatsoever.

And you’re certain the success of your life here has nothing to do with him anyway?

Nothing. We had to be a success, we didn’t have a choice. You know, it was a, you know, fight for survival, we had to do it. No choice. And that was his fault. He took our choice away.

I think that’s one hell of a message that you can send to him. Um, Veena, thank you very much that’s wonderful.

You’re welcome.

I appreciate this and I’m going to stop.

The End

Transcript not to be used without copyright

Interview details

Name of interviewee:

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: March 7, 2013

Language: English

Venue:

Name of interviewer:

Length of interview: 44:24

Transcribed by: Sheldon Paquin

Archive Ref: 2013_esch_UgAs_014

Interview details

2013_esch_UgAs_15

Cab I ask you your full name please?

Shuslila Patel?

And can you spell that?

Shushila Patel

Perfect?

And can I ask you your date of birth please?

3^rd January 1960

And you don’t look that age at all and can I ask you your place of birth please?

A little village in North Uganda called Parangar which is in between Lira and Golu

And what size was Paranga?

Paranga had about five Asian families and it was a little village of about of shop which served the purpose of a the Jeanery as well the cotton Jeanery

Can you describe in a bit more detail the layout of eth town your house perhaps your street?

Oh really can’t except to say there was a main road with houses an either sides of the road and it was start from the Jeanery there was a little gap little huts of local people and then some buildings on one side and then the other side there was no design of it as a particular place the main road ran through it it was a little village that we called it

A Hamlet?

Yes a hamlet

Yes and did you go to school in the town?

No

Can you tell me where you went to school?

I went we went to school in Serottie is where my father had some he rented a house for all my brothers and sisters and my mum would take turns to stay with us when we went to school

And when you went to school was sit a state school was it a missed school?

No no you paid fees Serotti Pioneer School

And where the majority of the students there Asian was it mixed?

The majority was Asian in fact about 99% were Asian

And can you tell me some of the things you did for recreation outside school?

In seroti it was mostly it was local communal green area that people kids would come and play about play rounder’s and we used to have a seven bricks game you would have a ball a dodge ball soft I think it would not hurt and you would pick up seven bricks and you would make two teams and you would make the other team from forming the seventh brick on top and that would be a local and that was always the school gymnastic facilities and you could use in school things like that

So it was very simple but enjoyable?

Yes I think everybody felt a since of relation after school people were routinely there was a pattern in Serottittie but Paranga which is a village was a completely different situation altogether because you were on holiday all day so we had river on either side of the river so you could walk up to the river through via the local Jeanery cotton jeanery and play about there or you would come back and walk through the other side were there was fishing and stuff like that you could watch local people do that I think when I think how did we spend the time the kids the kids mainly Asian kids we would stick together and play around and in the village we would do the same seven bridge games where there was space but there wasn’t much space to do that so we use to play this other game where we would use a tree I can’t remember how that worked and then there was Gilliegander like cricket you have you heard of Gilligangder?

I have heard of the name

Yes it was a stick it you point it and then you hit the think you play it almost like cricket and that’s it basically

Was it very relaxed sort of erm?

Yes

And you have mentioned your relationship with the Asian community you went to school with a majority of the Asian community can you tell me as it was not one monolithic groups was it there was a number of cultures religions ethnicities within the Asian community can you what was the relations between the different groups?

Now I have given this a lot of through really have the Asian communities were unified but them being Asians and it didn’t matter really the ethic or the faith background and where we have a lot of different faith groups was in Serotine so for instance we had mosques we had the Agar Kahn we had the Sikh Gudwara we had the big temple and when we used to have festivals celebrated by each faith groups the others would come and join in so we would have divawlie where it didn’t matter if you where Punjabi sheikh or Muslim if you like playing (Dandra??) you just came along as neighbours I think that was a remarkable achievement of Uganda Asians in Uganda particularly things like the Agar Kahn would celebrate their day and the whole it was built on a crossroads this particular Agha Kan and the whole town we knew it was coming up and the whole place was closed off so that you would make a big space and open fanny dress and it was just a fun celebratory way of living which each other

A very tight knit community?

A very tight knit community and you know where it was stick those who would not eat meat and there was the Hindus that would not mind eating meat but people kept themselves contained in a way that allowed them to me Asians but with different faith and different cultures and there was no decorativeness’ with each other you know it was the respect was incredible

And do you think that helps because there was this bond of being Asian in a country that was dominated by Africans do you that was it that the ethnicity factor which brought you together

I think it might be that but the majority was that the business were run and were managed by the Asian community although the Asian community who held the business also had some later arrivals to work with the from India and places like that so they weren’t alls successful so it would be like you would have the wealth Asian who would be employing the other Asians to do the work for them so it divided in that way it wasn’t just all Asian were rich so em

So it was almost like a class system?

There was a class system m yes I think there was an economic class system erm but I think there was a hierarchy of which particular faith groups were more important than others that to me I don’t see it and the other thing was is that the prejudices you might come across is later is where you had mixed racial groups that was almost initially Uganda Asian communities were fine as long as there was not that much of inter marriages between each other and then gradually things got I think towards the end we came in 72 you heard that things people were marring each other different faiths and the n it was becoming acceptable but I suppose when I was born the 60s that would not have been the case it was very very rare

So it was becoming more acceptable?

Towards the end the time we left in 72 there was at least two or three cases in Serroti that had that inter marriages likes a person from Agar Kan married someone from a Hindu background and that but intermarriages was a subject that was still a little bit of a taboo

Yeah and controversial and so you have talked about the nature of the Asian community group and interrelations with the different groups sub groups con we talk about perhaps between the Asian community and the Black Africans what was the nature of that?

We can but before we more with the Asian communities the solidarity was brought about by every community sharing the bollywood songs and music and bollywood films that was the thing to do Sunday or most weekday this was in Sarrotie but it was not common practice throughout Ugandan that the young women would try and copy the outfits that were in the 60s films worn by the actresses in 60s bollywood films and it didn’t matter which background you were unless you were observing strict dress code most people would be coping that and was something else that was shared galvanised the communities you could hear radio from one house because it is hot and all the windows are open so you would hear the radios shred by everyone I think that was important

Wonderful No one has ever actually mentioned that to me that the one practice could unite a community

Radio and bollywood I mean East African radio I mean Siane?? Was the guy everybody knew he was visiting every part of the town people would be really excited and films were a big major thing in the 60s film fares and what and newspapers were the thing so that was your Ugandan Asians that was what brought them together in addition I think art social and cultural things even if it was faith based they were sharing together so like we would have Edi Mubarak and local Muslim if they knew you were eating meat hey would send you food on the day things like that. Right in Moving o the relationship with the Asian and the local Africans I have two perspectives on that one from serotto which was a larger city of you like and the Asian community had galvanised and it was Asian zone it you like with Africans who would be working there or doing odd jobs bringing goods moving around but not many Africa’s lived in serotti unless they were professional like teachers or some other profession so you are mixing with the African population would be very limited to if there was some vegetables to the houses they used to do on bicycles on like wheelbarrows and people who know and hear the local serottoe vegetable man and you would go and buy Aubergines and potatoes and things like that erm and they might be working in factories and they might be employed to be your cleaner or other jobs that you might want doing but you didn’t actually have a vision or went near their environment was outside of serottie

So would you say there is an aspect of segregation?

Segregation due to the way the cities were built and operated so the houses that were in serottie would not be affordable by local African people so, they would choose to live on the outskirts. And family…

Do you, do you think this is a consequence of the colonial system? Because obviously the whites would always, and the Europeans would always segregate themselves in any, col-, colonial region, certainly under the British Empire. Do you think, because um, a lot of the Asian community obviously had links to the colonial powers, from back in India, er, do you think there was almost the idea that it came as a consequence of the colonial system?

I, I, I wouldn’t…I wouldn’t be definite about it being an influence of colonialism, but what I would say, is economical position, creates that division, um, and that’s why I said, I’d like to, two perspective, my other perspectives, the village perspective, is slightly different from Sorotti. Economically, the Asian people financially could afford to live like that. And there was still some on the fringe of it, poor, poor Asian xxxx, very poor, who couldn’t afford those kind of, houses, very few. And they would live on the outskirts. You know, something had, happened to that family or whatever, whether orphaned, or the father couldn’t work or whatever, some, some of those kind of families did live on the fringe. Um, I think familiarity, sharing of each others, needs and wants and desires brought them together. That, in that way it is like colonial, because the whites in India felt more comfortable. But what they did do is they tried to create, an environment specifically replicating, bit like England. And that was unique, whereas, I don’t think the Ugandan Asians tried to create a New Delhi, or Mumbai. In any part of Uganda, if you see my point. Or try to say, ok, we’re going to have it like India now. It wasn’t in that way, so I wouldn’t, I’m , I’m not sure about calling it colonial, but I’m definitely um, I think the Ugandan Asians created a life which was economically, and politically as well, and socially, a much more convenient for them to be together.

Hmmm. Do you think…

Now, in the village perspective, se the village is where my grandfather had gone. Long time, like nineteen twelve (1912) or so, and he had made friends with another er, Muslim, my father, my, my grandfathers Hindu, er, Muslim, and a local African person, that they had gone up the River Nile from Lake Victoria [phone rings] Do you know, this person keeps on ringing me, I’m sorry…[tape paused and restarted]

The village perspective…

It was the village perspective, and I’m, I’m saying this because I don’t think many people will have that as an experience, but we were quite fortunate, my family and I, in that we had the village experience, we also had the city experience. And that enriched our connection with people. So the village experience where my grandfather had settled…in Branga, with a little shell, and a little involvement with the local cotton xxxx, and he opened up a shop, which would sell, sell the local people. So basic ingredients, salt, sugar, cooking oil, um, material, er, you know, er, rolls of material like in, like you see today in Mister Selfridge, kind of thing. But very, very tiny, small shop, we wouldn’t even call it Mister Selfridge little corner room, basically that sort of shop. Um, so, saying that, that’s what I remember of the shop, but initially it might have been even smaller. The shell, is, is like er, like a petrol station, but it’s not. It’s one drum with petrol in it, and it would have a pump, so the travelling people from where ever, would stop to fill up their vehicles. Going to Goolu, mostly towards the end, that were, well, with a lot of the lorries transporting, raw cotton, millets and other things to the xxxx so it worked quite well. Now, that perspective is my grandfathers connection with the Muslim community, local African community, Ali’s family came from Sudan, and, and so, these are the people that we actually had, then generations later, continued to have respect and relationship. Obviously you wouldn’t go and dine and wine, but some of us, as kids, not dine and wine, but we didn’t have fear of going in the huts and stuff like that.

More exposed to them xxxx…

We spoke to them, we met them, and you know, of course, our, our cooking was different to theirs, but some of their recipes we bought, some of them took our recipes, and this was in the village. Now, as the youngest in my family, the rest had been sent to school, so what I remember is my father’s shop always had a little, er, at peak time maybe three or four tailors. So they would be on the veranda of the shop, people would buy the material, and the women would have their dresses made instantly and come back in two hours time. So to speak. Er, by the time I was about, five when I remember, we had one particular er, tailor, Denasia, and he, his hut was not behind our back yard, not far to walk, and he had got his grandson, who was about my age, Tana. And it was ok for me to walk around with him, play with him, you know, and that, I don’t think many of my brothers and sisters did, because they were friends with each other. Where as I had Tana who was, used to just come over and things so, I perhaps had that connection with him which is something. And we used to [laughs], walk away, and there was a little place between, between where we lived to the little gin, cotton ginnery(?), and it was a little come school, come, it was one room basically. It was like one, er, like served like a hospital, er, like, kay um, like teaching kids school, and it was a little, I think a catholic little place. For worship, but in there was people or person, who if you cut yourself would put a bandage on it, clean it up for you and if you grazed your knee or something, you’d go, and you wouldn’t want to come and tell your parents in case they actually shouted at you for being naughty in the first place. And, and that I remember quite fondly actually so.

Hmmm. So, you, you obviously xxxx xxxx…

A little bit, I wouldn’t go over the top and say, oh yes, that was my best friend, and all of it, because I also had Naseem, another kid of my age.

Hmmm. But I suppose children have that innocence don’t they…

But at that day, they do…

Xxxx Black Asian White…

Yeah, and, and you play because you like doing things, you like, er, exploring so, we would explore, walk behind what would be our, our staff, who, well, I suppose they used to call them servants but, Dogbay would take our clothes for a daily wash in the river and bring them back. And we would follow him around you know, so it was safe to go as far as the river, and, and play about, and then come back with him, that kind of stuff.

Hmmm. So you, you obviously you had, I know the term is frowned upon now…

Hmmm.

But there was sort of help, servants…

Oh yes there was definitely.

And you had relationships, friends…

Xxxx, depended on family to family, because I, our Tonbay was like, he was everything for all of us children, you know, it was like an extension of my parents really, so if you got dirty, he’d say, oh God, xxxx, [laughs], bit mischievous, but I used to, I used to play about a lot, so he’d say, come up before mum goes, you know, as soon as you go home, and you, and make sure you wash your feet, and put on a new dress, and he’d got his own little way of making sure that he had your clothes sorted for you, but I think that might be because he was fond of me, because I was the last one at home.

You were the youngest one as well?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so um, he probably got you in a bit of trouble, and got you out of a bit of trouble as well over the years?

Well, he didn’t get…

Xxxx[laughs].

Me in to trouble at all, I, I [laughs] xxxx…

Got himself in [laughs].

Yes, exactly to be honest!

[laughs]

[laughs].

Xxxx xxxx

He got, he, he was a great asset in that way, really, for my little childhood.

I can sense the way you’re talking about him, it’s almost the…

Yeah. No, I’m very fond…

Affectionate.

Fond memory of, Xxxx xxxx, and my, my father’s friend Ibrahim…who helped us, transport, I’ll come to that later. So, that’s how we are.

Yeah, and erm, did, let’s um flick forward um, towards your last period in xxxx, did you ever notice any tensions before Amin, um, er, any of his predecessors such as Aboti. Was there any tension between the, did you ever notice an increase in the way, or a change in the way the Africans were actually viewing you as a community?

Er…

Or was it Amin?

I, I think to be fair, I was a little bit young to be that involved in political things, and er, as a, as a rule, the Asians are Laissez faire about, because we didn’t have any, to say oh well we vote this party, that party, but there was a little bit of disruptions between different, patches of Uganda. So you had districts, we used to call them, Tesso district, Artruro district, Lango district, in terms of, how they were favoured or not favoured by Xxxx Aboti’s government, and whether, so, so in that respect Northern Uganda, all the districts I mention are Northern Ugandan districts, although Aboti came from Lango. Um, they were always felt a little bit like we weren’t supported that well. Like here really, North and South division.

I lived in Liverpool for a number of years…

Yeah.

And they definitely feel let down by the central powers [laughs]

Central powers, so they feel, you know, it’s, it’s quite common. Um, and so there would be that kind of tension now and again. Er, but…tension in terms of Anti-Asians, wasn’t that noticeable, maybe a few cases where the Africans got fed up, and thought why should the Asians, or you know, do the robbery or something like that, er, it wasn’t a collective feeling that all the Africans hate us now. That, that was never felt.

Hmmm.

By the, the Asians. I mean in school we used [laughs], talking about Tumba, at school we used to have um, school, school keeper, xxxx Peter, er, the African, local African. Again he, you know, his role was to keep kids content in school and all of that, and he did such a lovely job that at the end of the terms people just went to, families came and thanked him, and that kind of stuff, so…I don’t think the Asian communities were at all.

Hmmm. And er, let’s sort of um, move on then towards Amin’s reign of power, and when Amin came in…

Hmmm.

Um, I mean, we’ll carry on the topic of tensions, did you not-, do you remember when Amin came in power, were you too young, or did you notice a change in the country, or…

No I do remember, because it was kind of national news, radios and everywhere. ‘Cause not everybody had TV. Um, but he, taken over as a military coo, and that to a lot of Asians already started ringing a little bells of, not comfortable feeling. Because Milton Obote had gone to a conference somewhere, I think Singapore or somewhere, a world conference of some sort. And, the way he came in to power was just over coo-ing. And that didn’t feel very good to a lot of people. And before then, I think there was a tendency coming from, um, Kenya, Nairobi, where the Asians started, you know you call it “White Flight”? Asians started doing the, in the sixties (1960s) before Amin’s nineteen seventy two (1972), came to England, came over and, and, that period I, I, I’m not well researched in that, I don’t, I remember it, but I don’t remember the reasons.

Yeah, you had the sixty nine (1969), the Kenyan er…

Kenyan.

Expulsions.

Expulsion.

And then that obviously led to the race relations act.

Right. Ken, Kenya expulsion, race relations act here in nineteen seventy two (1972), which of course our mutual friend Enoch Powell was involved in…

Yes.

I had interviewed him when I was a community worker in Northampton

Oh

Local newspapers before the church got converted into Sainsbury’s

Which is now going to get changed to Tesco

So there go he was the MP of that area

For a community newsletter I used to do

Incredible I ll talk to you about that after

Yeah coming back to Uganda

Did you sense obviously you were very young but there was obviously these things going out

Yes people were feeling that after the Kenyan you are right after 1969 because some of the Asian the wealthier ones started to send their children particularly if not themselves to study to England to study here as part of that we might have then same consequences as Kenya here in Ugandan so some did start to leave but there was not a visible tension it was the fear that was created by the Kenyan situation that leave people feeling unsure an little bit of uncertainty and a bit of as vulnerable feeling that was what was making people leave

Maybe that fear that the tide could be turned?

Yeah

And let’s flick to the declaration the ninety day declaration do you remember where you were when that happened?

Exactly exactly the whole day and I have not been able to forget it we were in school we used to go to school from about 8 o’clock until 1 we would have a break in between we were in school I remember the teacher being very serious after break time it was maybe not quite 1 o’clock all the children we have to go something has been announced by Idi Armin for the Ugandan Asians and we will know more about it afterwards but basically it is going to be difficult for us to continue with the school from memory we went back obviously now everybody is in a state of shock and fear and confused went home and everybody closed the doors and most had radios indoors and that is when Idi Ahmein speech we as a family sat together in Sorriti and we heard him say that he did not want Ugandan Asians and they have to leave in three months but what happened with us is this incredible fear on my parents side who were still in the village which was about 180 miles away not knowing what to do as there was no telephone system if you had to sue one telephone it was difficult as there was no telephone system in the village no way of knowing now safe we were what was happening this was where Ibrahim cos there was a curfew put on so all the shops closed in the afternoon and the curfew was that you nobody should be seen in towns after certain times 5 or 6 or 7 o’clock the Asian had this terrifying feeling of not knowing what was going on in some towns although I think the military men made themselves visible and engendering more fear like walking on the main road and shooting up in the air and that kind of don’t mess around with me because we are in control we are power erm that was quite a frightening experience

Did Idi Amin beyond the military obviously the military was the right arm

These gangs

He was he really was wasn’t he xxxxxx do you think it was

Cos of his relationship with the local Africans as well

That was what I was going to ask was their a change of their attitude towards you as a consequence

The ones that we knew well were equally frightened and were equally feeling vulnerable because they were not sure how this person going to lead this country so having said that and I talked about my parents fear of what was going on in serrotti except for what the radio station said dads friend Ibrahim said to dad he was going to drive from Pranga cos as an African he was not going to be stopped and dad could come along but he would be the driver and if they were stopped he would say so he made this journey where by evening time he was in serrrotti and everyone was surprised to say that the mum and dad are okay and you are all okay we are going to take you home in the van kind of thing and I am going to be transported because 30 day the three month period we were not going to stay in Serotine so what we did was we took as little as we could and then everybody just packed up you couldn’t take all your school books obviously initially we thought things were going to change we almost emptied the house but not quite and all my brothers and sisters packed up our bags

There was a real sense of urgency

Yes because it was unpredictable, from my parents side because they had heard of certain things happening in Kampala, Jingar with the military people you know harassing local people, already on the day of the announcement that were not going to take risks, and my dad did know certain businessmen who enquired after us, and you know things like that people did generally do that looking after each other that was the beginning of something that you think gosh you didn’t understand it as a child that much but it was a rotten feeling

In a sense the fear

In all Asian families the village where life was a little bit more relaxed

Can you give an overview of these, did you last the three months before you finally left - did you last the three months how long into the declaration period

Now i am forgetting the date of the declaration period do you know the date - not I don’t

I think I should find out because we were not able to travel till the last few weeks

Can you explain why and what you did during that period?

Mum and dad because of eth business or whatever in the village had British Passports all of us children were born in Uganda my grandfather had gone to Uganda in 1912 and settled in Uganda and my father and my grandmother came from India and my father was born in Uganda so I think there was some problem getting out of Uganda as we the natural citizens of Uganda and certain countries were not going to take Ugandans they just prioritised so Indian passports went to India or Kenya or wherever so British passports mum and dad were okay but we weren’t so again there was a lot of to and fro travelling to the British high commission I remember dad doing a lot journeys to Kampala and coming back and because there was this incredible panic urgency from the whole of eth Asian community in Uganda 60,000 I think cane here

98,000 in total

Yeah 98,000 so you can imagine in that short time that there was loads of queues in the first few months so even after waiting you would not get anywhere

It sounds like chaos?

Yeah it was I mean none of the high commissioners were prepared for it you can’t blame them you cant falter that but you know there was some aid I think but even that could not contain all that many people, people with complicated and that is just to get the visas to get out of eth country to have any other complications like maybe this family needs looking into you know initially said yes you could have the visas bit not the kids because the children are naturally Ugandan citizens

Is there anything worse than splitting a family does not bare thinking about erm and what process but which you eventually managed to leave the country….?

Dad must have bribed the British High commission, I don’t know I don’t know eventually something came through so we left on the 14^th October 1972

Do you remember do you remember your initially reaction that you were going to England?

We had found out because dad had some families and some connections hear we were okay it was all going to ne new a little bit out of that panic chaotic feeling that life was going to change but very very sad because I think because all my family was quite grounded in the village so something that we would never thought that we would leave and you know like pets I had a pet monkey and dog and local families that was very sad erm to leave them you could not think about how you were going to do it so yes I do remember that but when we were told we were going to go on certain date which was 14^th October cos of my four sisters age they would be in their teenagers kind of age a group and I was about 12 so there would have been about 16 plus or 17

Vulnerable age …..

Vulnerable age and there were loads and loads of stories of Asian families being harassed girls being raped on the way and women being you know insulted throughout from Serotine to XXXX they fancied they would just take all your jewellery things like that so our friend Ibrahim said to my dad I am going to travel with you and we are going to take girls at a time so from Peranga we went not the main route not via Serotine via the other route which goes through Messene fort?? Not such a main road with few in-between checks from military people because if you went through Lias, Rotty, Emblia to Jinger then you would be flooded by all these checks so that was what Ibrahim did to make sure that ….

Almost like your guardian angel

It was this is why when we talk about Ugandan Asians and African and to this day we never forget that. I mean telling my dad did make a trip with my brothers back to Uganda and did the whole vigil to the village he went - who was it Ibrahim and another person are still around in Kampala, and made the whole trip for them really easy

So you dad finally got to see Ibrahim again

Oh and my grandfathers daughter or something called Mamamguin? She was like a local village midwife so if somebody was going to have a baby she new what to do and how to deliver babies and all of that so mumamague? Used to do all that and she came to see dad as well, I know. So for us to was that much more exposure to the local people because of the situation of living in the villages not I mean if we had been brought up in Serotti I don’t think we would have had that connection, no

And lets erm if it is not too disturbing for you can you actually describe that journey that you made with you Ibrahim and your sister?

No, no the sisters were sent off

Sent off ….

I was to travel with my mum and dad on the last day my brother and I we were the two kids left to travel with mum and dad were we just said good bye so it was everybody in the local village came to say goodbye to my dad and my mother and we had to give the pet a dog and it was the most awfully sad sad day and you know we had got some photos and everybody came a few of the photos, I will show you the photo later, perhaps if I can find it

It is something I can’t really emphasis with as I have never gone through that process but certainly you describing that you are not the first person who has described in detail that last moment that they had in the place that they not only was home …..

It was not like a car it was like a little facility like a lorry at the back where you could see so when you said goodbye people standing there in hundreds and mum and dad sat in the front my brother and I sat in the back of the lorry and we could still see them and it was very …

And obviously you made the journey to the airport did you actually have any problems going to the airport

No dad had a friend in Kampala who house was now being used for you to stop by before you went to the airport because it was Entebbe

About 20 miles outside Kampala

Yeah yeah

So you got to the airport and erm you flew was it a chartered flight or a refugee flight do you remember or ….

I think it was one of the refugee flights that was very very tired but I remember being extremely extremely shaken and fearful and I nearly peed myself because the military men where holding the guns up in the air and one of the women had made such a scream god knows what it was that was going on in the little distance that the military men then started shooting the guns not to people but up in the air as you were standing there you just got really petrified thinking oh what if they just shut because that was the story that they wilily nilly picked anybody of they did not like you so it was that fear it was incredible that made me think I am so glad we are going as that particular moment until I went to Entebbe and saw that. I still had that hankering back but that really was terrifying experience and then cos all the women were checked by other women officers to make sure that you were not smuggling any gold or jewellery and stuff like that erm so that was not a good day. So the aeroplane by that stage we were too bloody shaken up and too scared and we walked to the aeroplane because they did not have the facilities of these little things so everybody just walked from the airport to where the plane was

I suppose that was your last moment on Ugandan soil….

Yeah on soil. I would like to go back, I have not been able to because of not being that well when my father made the trip I would have loved to have gone erm

Let’s flick forward to the other end of that?

I think that the aeroplane was tires because of all the aeroplanes things get better we must have just come across Cairo coming to Egypt and the captains says we are going to have to make emergency landing because there was a problem with the aeroplane, so that was my next fear. So now we are in Cairo airport right and this but I must share because it can be a bit adventurist when you look back but it was equally frightening so we all got off and said mum and dad because of the British passport and a couple of others were allowed a room or something in Cairo because they did not have enough facilities so all of us with passport A and B I could not understand what it was we have to queue up and there were all these cabs waiting outside Cairo airport black cabs then I remember we all then had to divide ourselves it did not matter by this stage as everybody was so scared and frightened so you just stood in a line and I think my sister and my grandmother got split up with me so it left me and my brother with two other Asian families and three other Asian people so we took the cab and the cab took us somewhere to eat. You know you have never seen anything like it because Cairo is full of noise blub….. the bus and then you got on to some side roads where there was supposed to be foods like nan bread and something made out of chick peas and we just we did we have not been used to eating anything like that and then we looked around and we were so frightened then the cab driver came and brought us back and then we landed somewhere here like Stanstead. ( laughs)

You think that once you are on that aeroplane and it takes off from Entebbe you can …..

Yes and that was a bit of a problem for us

And let’s talk about your first reactions arriving in England?

Right we arrived in England and it was kind of like dark time I think it was darkish night time I can’t remember if it was early morning like 4 I can’t remember it was dark

It would have been winter so it make sense

15^th October it was that my father had a family member friend family member connected from Kampala who in also had a big house so he had already said to dad if you come to this county come over you don’t have to stay in the camps where a lot of Ugandan Asian were sent to local camps so this. Sp when we go of the plane freezing cold without fancy dress outfits and you know (laughs) just glad to be alive I guess landed here and we was really …. So that made that little Cairo incident and the incident in Entebbe geared me up to think anything is better now in a way I readily accepted it.

You have obviously never been to Warsaw before (laughs)

No no - I am going to explain this in a minute. So when we got off I have to say the British charitable organisations whether it was red cross or another organisation amazing in terms of their service they were there they were greeting us as children saying “you must be very cold dear let’s take you somewhere” and there was a room full of racks of coats and shoes and you know and it was “this fits you it’s okay take two” and gloves and stuff like that I have never forgotten that …. That act of generosity , kindness and humanitarian way of being welcome so there I was a little bit obviously sad now, but grateful for being in England because of eth way we were greeted at that airport and ..

It’s a good start

It’s a good start. Then we were driven that was a very good start and if they have not been mentioned then if anyone can and all the Ugandan Asian that were supported at the airport it meant a lot a lot …. In terms of being warmed up welcomed and all that. So then we drive out of this area to what is now lightening up and there is loads and loads of fog or mist or something much on the route from what I remember we must have got off the motorway and I am looking around and we end up somewhere like Walsall? With street full of things that look like and extension of cotton, ginnery store rooms because we had never seen houses built so joined like ‘Coronation Street’ even in Kampala where the houses were next door to each other they were not like in that shape streets basically we did not have ……

You had self contained unit and suddenly you have back to back terrace housing row after row..

Yes row after row that was a bit of a shock and it was a grey day very cold and everything looked so miserable, trees xxxx factory was not far from where my uncle lived and oh that was a disappointment not that people had talked about England that much, but you did have some post cards like the London bridge and you would have thought that England was like that

Not quite the same and obviously this is a question, you mean do you …….

I mean I think if they had started sending post cards with … like

Walsall

Walsall

Coronation Street I don’t think anyone would buy it (laughs)

Well this is what England is as well

Buckingham palace they are the only cards you get

I don’t think anyone would buy them (laughs)

The only cards you get to see ….the only places you get to see are places like that

You gave me a very similar answer to Aaron... Aaron was the same I said what was your first perceptive of England “well it was bloody cold mate” I was like anything else he says “I felt I was sold a lie. Because I had watched TV and looked at post cards and read books and seen big Ben and all of a sudden I was in the middle of Bloody Leytonstone freezing my ass off (laughs) not quite the reality. Can you tell me about and you can give me a different perspective as you have done work in as far as race relations as well but if you can go back to the early days did you in London at the time was almost a period of turmoil especially with in term of 69 we have already discussed the Kenyan and what was quite a divisive issue

England was boiling because then we arrived in 72 where we lived it was alright I mean in two weeks after arriving or less than that we were put in a school Darliston Comprehensive school and again we were blessed because the teachers took us to the shop and you know clothed us in the uniform and the head teacher all the teachers were told these are kids from Ugandan and they were almost very caring because from where we had come Mr Wild and all of those teachers keeping an eye on us that we were not being picked on or harassed by other kids or bullied by other kids. So weather we escaped other children harassing us in the classroom there was a situation where children had not meet other Asian people so things that were on the TV. My first day in school my teacher at the time my geography teacher oh “this is Sashila Patel she is from Uganda, which is where?” they were told Africa so all the kids after the teacher had gone “did you come from Uganda did you meet Tarzan oh did you meet Tarzan and do you know Jane Tarzan Sister “that was their way of reaction and kids just ask these things as they want to know.

They are not scared of asking things

Where was Zambo then

(Laughs)

So then and then I did not understand a word of it of course because it was a very strong Darliston accent yum yam Darliston accent (; laughs) I did not understand it at the time. (Talks in a northern accent) What bus did you come on which bus did you come on ….. Both laugh) but I made friends

Did you ever feel different?

Cos

I was the only Asian

But I don’t necessarily mean just ethic really your status I presume was border line refugee xxxxxxxx did you ever feel different because as that as a refugee or did you get on with life as a normal child?

I think I just got on with the school work I liked school I am not bragging but I was not thick I was quite bright so the kids would come along and says “look what shasila has done look at what shasila has done” and that kind of stuff and we used to answer well in the classrooms it was a few months until I could speak English properly so by then I am no0w really excited because I can make friends and talk to them and then I could not stop talking so

Never (laughs)

And one day this history teacher said (she shuts) “shalial shush” so from that day my name was kick named shush

(Laughing) And from that day did you ever shush?

Well I am wondering if this problem with larincs is a that problem of that

We are going to start wrapping up now so another 10 minutes or so is that okay?

That’s fine

Perfect this is going to be well you mentioned did before we started recording erm and we talked about how this was being celebrated the commemoration erm as we both know the Ugandan Asian community revered as almost seen held on a pedestal as the most successful form of receiving migrants in the 20^th century. What is your perspective on that - Why is the Ugandan Asian community so revered as a successful migrant to fit into British society do you think it has been successful in which case you mentioned earlier not every one xxxxxxxxxxxx

I think there is a drive and force from Ugandan Asians which is not denied I think those who had the opportunity but out of 60,000 that came to this country I can’t believe that 60,000 are or reach famous or making big business. So we have to put that into perspective. I think there must have been about 10,000 who have not done too badly and those people would have been successful because they are in my opinion they are of the family origin which has pushed education, business and any form of talent that they had and would have pushed any case. So whether it is the Ugandan Asians parasitic issue or achievement I have an open mind on that.

I think it is a bit of a dangerous president to whitewash every Ugandan Asian who has been a successful migrant

No I think I mean there is a tendency for I mean there was that Ugandan Asian started by saying they have incredible drive but having an incredible drive alone does not get you success you have to have the right opportunities and the right way of gaining those opportunities which I think the Ugandan Asian made the most of

Do you think that was almost something they brought from Uganda cos a lot of Asian discussed as you before discussed a lot of members of eth Ugandan Asian community back in xxx did work in mercantile class the market class the trading class do you think they brought that almost sprit with them to Britain did you think that player a part or …..

(Pause)I think business cultural that might have been the case like yeah ... and that you work tirelessly to gain success but you work in a healthy competitive environment err so but... you do work and you force yourself to drive and achieve those enterprising initiatives so in that way yea. I think the connections that they make with each other say if one started to buy a factory weather it is a knitting factory ion Lester they would be talking amongst that I would not call it league but that kind of group of people who were once business in Uganda. Like Mr x has opened up a factory Mr. x is now going tom talk to somebody who is going to buy a petrol; station and then Mr x petrol station is expanded into another one and in that way that was what I meant about healthy competition and it would create more and more opportunities once they found the rope of how to do it they would just peruse it endlessly.

There was almost like a support network was there for you as well as you would help each other out as well

Yes yes they did have that connection as well

Let’s talk about your own actual life which is something that is important you said you went to school and have already told me you went to Wolverhampton polytechnic erm what did you study?

Social sciences

Social science and where did that leave you what career path?

I don’t know but look at me (laughs) no on a serious note social sciences sociliology and doing Politics as a student who would have been what I came in 72 and went to study in 79 so we had not even done 10 years in the country so I was still adapting to the country, and in-between that period before I went to student erm an important part and what I do remember about not so much in Walsall and Wolverhampton and places like London on the news is the skinheads harassing Asian people and you know doing things like erm kicking them and calling them ‘Pakis go home’ they would be bald saying Pakis no bed and Breakfast no Pakis or something some we were all labelled as Pakis and some of the kids at school picked that up in a negative way if they chose to if they wanted to so, going to studying Social science was a first year erm curriculum at the Wolverhampton poly my parents did not want me to go far so I did not go to university like other places I could have perhaps got, and erm the first year social science recruits apart 80% were mature students there was me and another 4 from school and why I am saying that is because they would be much more mature and experienced about a lot of things that I learnt a lot from there just being in that environment and doing sociology and politics put me in a position of knowing things like erm where why we were there because you studied it ion politics about different forms of dictatorships around the world and the history of different political regimes and social science helped me understand my although we were still in that period the Asian communities weren’t as mixed so as a young girl we were still following a lot of the Asian restrictions, you can’t do this you couldn’t do this you can’t do that you know those kind of restrictions that now days you see young Asian girls talking about there is not much difference between young Asian girl and a white girl or an English girl if you see what I mean. In those days so I even understood that which make things easier? And international economic that made things clearer

It gave you more of a rounded perspective of where you have come from certain issues that had been taken over …..

Erm apart from doing it as a degree it really did genuinely help me

Let’s talk about an incident of meeting a certain mutual friend of ours er Mr Powell how did you get in to that situation?

Erh now

And how did you get yourself out of that situation? (Laughs)

So we were social science students then I got an immediate job 5 of us to work with Dr Paul Willis on the unemployment we used to have in Wolverhampton University then we used to have unemployment studies unit and we did a research project of the total 1% sample from 16-24 and I had gone to interview the young Asian kids after that I was taken to work in a little community centre as a community person so the research helped erm to do some community type work in a very run down dilapidated state near the centre not far from where there was a church and Sainsbury’s so I used to do lots of newsletters for the local people and the newsletters would say oh the council want to know if there are any empty houses and how we could convert and there was also a red light district in that area and how you know what there is the hospital now

Yeah yeah xxxxx field at the back it still yeah yeah

Sticking?

Yeah you have Albeinon Street oh and something else I can tell you now it is the red light district and still is it hasn’t changed much

No so and then cane the town councils development plan to build Sainsbury’s the church into Sainsbury’s and also to have the motorway highway thing right across there and what the local people’s views was so I went to interview Enoch Powell as he was the MP to ask about his views on this particular development plan nothing sinister really

Can you tell me anything about the interview with the man?

To be faire he was not nasty he was alright to talk to as politicians are so I remember that

That is the enigma of Enoch Powell isn’t it he is such a contrisouse person because nobody knows the real Enoch his supporters

He is not scary or anything like that

I have meet a number of Asian members of eth community in Wolverhampton who have met Enoch and have had very good words with him apart from the issue of migration obveriuosly

Migration he had a very radical view on that but other than that he is not as your friend said. Now what is happening here

I think he was meal ticket xxxxxx we are on to the last two questions here two topics I would like to talk to you in how you regard your identity and how you view yourself obviously I have met you were born in Uganda as a Ugandan Asian erm torn away from your homeland at a very early age and you had to resettle in a country that you obviously lived in since when you look at yourself as a person your cultural and ethnic identity I mean how do you view yourself how do you fit?

Erm this might change again in 10 years time because I see myself differently I wouldn’t be able to say this is a consistent view cos obviously when I was young I had a different view I think I am an eclectic person erm I have very definite passionate cultural feel of being Indian Asian and that would include areas like food Cuisine Films Bollywood, Music and certain cultural events like devaklie and like that equally I have a passion for English films Hollywood films but it is hard to say I am this or that I am a mixture of cultures

You have absorbed something along the way

Yeah and things that I like I like gardening doesn’t mean to say that Indian people don’t like gardening just like you don’t see many of them keeping the front gardens

(Laughs) I’m not saying anything for the reference for the tape Shuislia just looked out the window and made a face (laughs

Yeah but I like art again shared by Indians and India and other countries

How about how do you view Uganda now? I mean what part does Uganda play in your life?

So I was 12 and half I was thinking about that the other day about my different places all around and then I went to work I’m Leeds. And then I don’t tend to think about Leeds but the I was an adult working there in the NHS executive so that was a different role. The childhood memories are something I think where ever you are you still remember, so I am quite found of that I think as it was in inverted common a charmed childhood you would remember it but I have occasionally got flashbacks, more so because now especially in my case I’m sharing with you what triggers my memories is mothering Sunday and my mother dies in 1992 and then my father died in 2009 so this weekend it is like you remember mum and you remember mum in different forms so I will remember Uganda for example erm. Certain things if there is something on the TV like Attenborough’s programmes suddenly I will float away and we used to do these things the documentaries that he has made in Africa and the lovely pictures and I think there are trigger points that do that but I don’t sit around thinking oh god Uganda, Uganda, Ugandans but I do want to visit it one day hopefully

Do you think it will be some sort of closure from the experience of being forced to live if you go back there?

I think it might erm

Erm again I can never empathise with this experience I think it would be offensive to try to pretend to erm this is something you have gone through and thank god not many people have gone through that the idea of being forced but if I could try to get into that perspective I think there must be some sort of gap in your life to have such a wonderful upbringing such a simple life

Yeah yeah

And as you say over Romanise or experiences as a child at the same time the reality was you did have a very simple very comforting upbringing it seems

Relaxed

Relaxed, enjoyable and to suddenly have that taken away from you

Yeah

It is always going to leave an effect

It will

Erm the last thing I am going to ask you now erm it’s basically an opportunity to send a message out to Amin who is long gone but if you could actually speak to Idi Ahmin, in now and perhaps give a message to him what would it be? Looking back on all these years after he forced you out of your homeland

Erm I have got over the anger the xxxxx the hatred if anything it would be helpful to say now come on now Idi Ahmin who prompted you? What prompted you? Why did you take this decision that would help me as I don’t think he was alone in this

Answers

Yeah

While we are on the subject I have heard all kinds of subjections on why he did it as if there is golden answer I have heard certain suggestions of him falling in love with Navalis daughter erm Gaddafi was said to have played a certain role what do you think it was that made him to make that declaration is there any one answer?

I don’t think there is any one answer but it was linked to the fact that Milton Obote was about to talk to other countries about the situation and given the xxxxx powers we have in this world I would not like to pinpoint anyone but it wouldn’t surprise me it was a little bit of a bigger thing to not let Obote come back which then turned into a monstrous thing so the initial I have got a feeling that it might have been tempered by other people who might have not wanted Obote to lead a particular discussion or votes in the world conference in a particular manor and to stop him there would distract by taking over his presidency but in the process perhaps didn’t realise how bad he really was so maybe your suggestions that one or two reason then played out differently

You can have a particular view point, I think you have a dammed good personal view point having gone through the whole process and is there anything else you would like to add the commemoration is coming up is there anything you would like to add perhaps the way the commemoration should be celebrated. Is there a message out there for your fellow Ugandan Asians you would like to send out?

No just very grateful that despite this horrendous decision and a few obvious cases of people being killed in Uganda that a lot of Asians did escape that situation and are grateful for that so you said we would celebrate the Ugandan Asians expulsion but today there is some many different forms of political regimes going wrong and people are seeking asylums all over from all over the world that there is one lesion we have got to learn is that when countries behave badly people flee a lot of them our genuine and let’s not penalise everybody and say they are hear from immigration purpose and there are a few who abuse the situation of flee from asylum and fleeing my contribution of being in this country as a refugee is to come back after I have worked in the NHS in 97 to cover an organisation which was a project based within an umbrella organisation called Redbridge council for voluntary services and took Redbridge refugee forum I was the chair of Redbridge refugee forum and 97 onwards the refugees would get some form of assistance in support in heath welfare and other accommodation needs now that particular organisation changed from Redbridge refugee form to Redbridge migrants forum of east |London and they deal with a lot more complicated issues now and the organisation has grown and the organisation is not funded well and the needs are greater and greater and greater so I would like to end on that one.

That is admirable as you are giving back the people who helped you in 72

Initially, initially I can see certain thing not working out properly here

And that is your concern thanks you very much

Shall we do it again then

The End

Transcript not to be used without copyright

Interview details

Name of interviewee:

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: 07/03/2013

Language: English

Venue:

Name of interviewer: Grieg Campbell

Length of interview: 75 mins

Transcribed by: Judith Garfield and Claire Days

Archive Ref: 2013_esch_UgAs_15

2013_esch_UgAs_16

2013_esch_UgAs_16

This is Lwam Tesfay interviewing Keshavji Mandali, on Tuesday the twelfth of March, two thousand and thirteen. OK Mr Mandali, if you can start by telling me your full name, and your date of birth if you can spell your name for me as well.

Yeah my name…date of birth is twelth October, ninety twenty seven.

And where were you born?

I born in india.

Ok,

And…

How do you spell your name?

K-E-S-H-A-V-J-I, Keshavji…A, my father Arjun.

Arjun?

Mandalia is my, my surname.

How do you spell Mandali?

Eh?

Mandali, how do you spell it?

M-A-N-D-A-L-I-A. Mandalia.

And where were you born?

I born in…in, India in Gujarat. Is er, a small town was, you know Mahatma Gandhi born?

mm.

Porbandar. It is a, twenty five mile from Porbandar. Porbandar is famous place.

And what kind of area was it like?

Eh?

What kind of area was it like? What kind area was it, where you, where you born?

Area?

Is it a village?

Eh?

Is it a village? Is it small, is it…

Yeah it was, now is…now is a large town…town. But when I born, is a populous of about seven thousand. That time. Now is, maybe fifity thousand.

Laughs when did you leave india? When did you leave india?

Nineteen fourty six.

So how old were you then?

Er…

Roughly?

About twenty, twenty two.

So what was like, what was the, like growing up in India?

Er you know our family, mostly…go to Africa.

Mhmm.

My father use to go, but that time before last world war, take, go and earn some money and come back. XXXX two, three years, one year they stay in india, two years is, three years is in Africa. But after world war they settle over there. They built a house over there, and, called family. Before my mother never been in Africa.

What did your dad do?

Carpenter.

He’s a carpenter. So he use to stay in…in Africa…then come back to india?

Nods.

So when did your family decide to go to Africa for good?

Ya after world war, world woar finished my brother first, settle over there, and…his wife.

Where in…

In Mombassa.

Mombassa, OK.

In Kenya. In, during world war, he use to live in Nairobi, capuital city of kenay. But er after world war, they left Nairobi and settle, open shop over there, mobassa. So when I, when I was in aden my borther, two brothers they were well settled over there.

What where you doing in aden? In yemen?

I was tailor. So I, open shop in aeden with my friend. But er, it was very hot I didn’t like, but I got a skin disease.

Living in aden?

Yeah, and that time there was no antibiotic. So, disease all over body.

How long did you stay in yemen.

Er…November to july.

Ok.

About eight, nine months. Nine, eleven I left and went to mombassa. And I married in mombassa. My wife born Uganda.

So you stayed in mombassa, so what were you doing in mombassa, how long did you stay there?

About eight years. Was er, a businesss…clothing business.

You carried on the tailoring?

Nods. Then I opened one branch in Uganda.

Whereabout in Uganda?

In mbale.

Ok.

So mbale I stayed about eighteen years.

Did you move, just to mbale because of the business?

Yeah, I thought because mbale was a good place.

What kind of area was it like?

Eh?

What kind of area was mbale likem can you describe it for me, how does the…city look?

Nice climate. Its very good. Morning, was winter. Afternoon summer, and evening is rain.

Laughs

Rain is mostly every day.

In the evening?

Very fertile land. If you put you know, mango XXXX, put it over there within three years, you grown tree you get mango, within three years,

Its very fertile the land.

XXXX watery every where. You know nile?

mm.

nile coming from…

thourhg Uganda?

…lake, Lake Victoria. Lake Victoria was very, very big touching Tanzania, Mwanza and here, Kenya Kisumu, and here Jinja, Entebbe.

What was your business like, how was business in mbale, was there a lot of other asian businesses there aswell?

Yeah…because er, mostly African in mbale is well off, Kenya XXXX, Uganda was a rich country because coffee, cotton, peanuts, XXXX, growing tea, sugar, so mostly African , majority African was well off and well educated.

How many employees did you have?

Er…in my shop it was, it was six to seven. And after independent, I opened my shirt manufacturing over there, it was forty five people, in factory.

And whas there a mixture of Asians, or were there African Ugandans.

Mostly African, mostly African, asian was one or two.

And what was it like er, em…the dynamics between the black African Ugandans and the Asians, in business…or just around the city? Did they get along?

Yeah. But you know, eighty per cent, you know economy controlled by asian, and the government revenue about eighty per cent, government get easily get eighty percent from asian. At that time asian, don’t send money outside, out of Africa, they invest over there. But after independent people frighten. Because er, general amin everyday give lecture. So after gen…during, general amin time, most asian send money to XXXX. But ten per cent people there, send money but ninety per cent they were happy over there, and applied for Ugandan cizien. I applied for citizenship.

Did they give it to you?

They didn’t, they didn’t gave me citizen.

Why?

Because er [points to back of hand]

Because you’re asian?

Skin. You know what happened, the first president he was well educated, but geneal amin was illiterate. He came, from poor background and he, himself he wasn’t from Uganda, he was Sudanese. Sudanese refugee settle in kampala, among the the tripozi. General amin born over there.

In sudan?

Ah. No.

In er Uganda, he was born in Uganda.

Uganda.

Do you remember the things that he use to say in his speeches? Before, before he gave the notice?

Ya, because...

What kind of things did he use to say?

XXXX ordinary speech and most of speech is no sense.

Laughs.

No knowledge, if he dream, say god tell him to expel asian. He was like just mohaed prophet.

Can yuou remember when you heard that, he said he had that dream?

Ya.

What were you thinking? What was the rest of the asian community thinking?

We are laughing.

Were the other black Africans laughing at him aswell?

And first when he came, people don’t know what he will do. And mostly people think he’s stupid.

Laughs.

But when he met general gaddafi of Libya, he was crazy man, gadaffai tell them, toldhim, to expel Africa, asian and I’ll give you expert people from Sudan, Libya. XXXX. Because gaffai expel twenty five thousand Italian.

Yeah.

Because Italy got, dominant by Italy before independent. So he made copy of gaddafi. And he don’t know because er, mostly you know, you know all over Uganda there was no single doctor African. No single lawyer, no single engineer. How can you run country without expert? Business, no single people have knowledge. So when we left Uganda, myself, I left everything over there. So when I left within three days, they break my house, my shop and everything. It still, XXXX taken. And some business gave to African, they don’t know how to import things, or how to export. So they, they got goods they sold and then, don’t have resources to getting back. So you know, in…in Jinja, there was a, near Jinja was a town Kikara, sugar. You know everyday you take factory, sugar plantation, everyday they, two thousand bags of sugar was XXXX. Two thousand bags and one bag need one tonne sugar cane. So they, the asian who opened the factory, he whole life awas over there, he know how to plant, and how to cut. So one side they XXXX, other side they cut and again, here, sugar grow, and going constantly without breaking. And when he left Uganda and came here London, production went to two hundred bags. No sugar.

That’s it, there was no sugar left.

He don’t have enough money to give salary.

So that happened a lot after all the Asians left?

Yeah, yeah. That asian business went, they employed twenty thousand people.

From where? From outside?

No no. whole Africa.

Oh ok, yeah asian recruited yeah.

You know, most modern system in Africa was in kikara. School was free, house everything, getting by company.

Are you, going back to what you said earlier, you got married in mombassa and your wife was born in Uganda.

Yeah.

Did you have any children?

Yeah I got two daughters.

And where were they born?

They were born in mbale.

Mbale. And what was it like raising children in mbale there?

Eh?

What ws it like raising th children?

Ya it was very good.

Can you remember celebrating religious festivals?

Yeah, many photos. And many I left behind, album. I got one album because when I want to come here i can’t get carrier bag. It was twenty, thirty thousand people left together. So no, there is no single bar in market you can get.

What was the area like in mbale, the home that you lived in? the neightbourhood, the community?

You know mostly in town, mostly lie upper class African and asian, and some europena. But African mostly live in farm, because they are mostly farmers, they get near town, two miles, three miles, they got plantations, coffee, cotton, so live over there. And mostly they come, they come for work, for cash money they want to work. But food, no need to buy because they get enough food in their farm, mogo, motoki, you know banan…

Whats mogo??

Motoki you know?

No.

Is banana. But cooking banana.

Like er, plantain? Is it?

That banana, banana cook, boil and they eat. Very tasty. I use to eat every week one day, motoki.

What was your favourite, er food in Uganda?

Motoki.

Yeah.

Motoki, we cook and make like curry. And boil first, and cutting pieces or sometime make just like mash potato and you know, put some oil, onion, tomato and make like curry.

Did you cook at home?

Yeah.

[Laughs] So not just your wife. Both of you cooked at home. And can you remember when he made the announcement and said you have to go? When he told, said he had the dream, you said earlier there was, everybody was laughing they thought it was a joke.

Yeah. First we think, because near mbale, was er, a town was Tororo. Over there is army, army camp. Over there he announced, say all afri…all Asian living in uganda, leave country within three months. So first we shocked, we say crazy, how can you sell your business and your property, who will buy? Africans they can’t buy.

And then what happened afterwards, when it started to…

First XXXX, we didn’t take seriously, but then army come, everyday in town my businesss was clothing. They buy, don’t pay money.

So soliders would come to the shop.

Yeah…. By gun. Elecontronic shop, go and say I want this television or other equipement, don’t pay money. Just like robbery, people think that this is something is, and they give warning to bristish high commissioner. You take your people, within three months otherwise I’ll put in jail, in camps, all people, put in camp.

So what did your, what did you do afterwards?

So…I, I was worrying my brothers family. My brothers got six children, and he don’t have much experience, so I sent my brother first.

Sent him to…uk?

England.

England, yeah.

Because that time, that time, was a voucher system. You go to british embassay, , they put stamp on your passport then you get ticket. Then that time,every passport I gave bribe to airways company. Two thousand, three thousand, every passport. I gave bribe about fifty thousand shillings, I send my brother.

To the, so you em, bribed the airport staff…the….

Yeah.

Was that very common?

I think last momement I leave, but er, I book my passport everything ready, ticket everything read, but I want to smuggle, some my goods.

What kind of goods?

Clothes

Your tailoring stugg, ok.

I want to send Kenya becaseu my elder brother was in Kenya. So station, railways staion was friendly, but I didn’t get chance because everywehere army people watching. So I got notice, forty eight hours, he sayd, people who book, tell ticket leave country within forty eight hours, so I leave, left country within forty eight hours.

So you sent your, your wife and your daughters off first or….they came with you?

We came together.

Can you remember arriving at the airport, did you have er…

Airport was one hundred and seventy five mile from Mbale to Entebbe. And that distance about eight times army people search everything. Wrist… take my wife’s ornaments, gold.

They took it off her?

Yeah, er, took three rings, they taken. Money...taken. I came here, I was, I got only six pound.

Six pounds [laughs].

That was I, I hide it!

In your back pocket? Wow. And what happened to your business there, you just left your things, everything there?

Yeah, I, I…

Did you still have family living in Uganda or was everybody…?

No, nobody. No single one. Now is er, many they came from, India. Xxxx working over there. After then, generally. We go, he er, your new president, expel Idi Amin, he want, he left Uganda, went to Libya. And then went to Saudi Arabia. And he died, in Saudi Arabia.

Can you er, can you remember arriving in um, in the UK, where did you go first, when you came off the plane?

You know, I don’t know. But my, earlier I send, I send xxxx. My brother in law already was here. So, they got house, they rented house in Enfield.

Enfield?And what was your first thought, when you came off the plane, and you saw, saw London, what were you thinking?

Yeah. It was terrible!

[laughs]

Because, I don’t know that time, I have limited knowledge of English. Not any English, because I speak Swahili over there. And here, in…

What was it like when you had to settle, settle in um, Enfield, you stayed with your brother?

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah, it was er, it was er, three bedroom house, so one bedroom use me, and two bedroom use my brother’s whole family. So council, not allowed, they, they want to give house at that time, we don’t have knowledge, about benefit system, welfare system. I don’t know anything. Even I went to xxxx exit, I go to, maybe you say, you sign here, I want, I went over, only one time. And then I, I refuse.

Why?

Turned back. So I’m, I’m not beggar. I feel like a beggar, I don’t joke. So I came here xxxx….you know up, up Green Street, it is Sorn Road[?], over there my relative…here, er, he told me to come here and I’ll take you Aldgate, east. So I, I came here, from Enfield, and go, gone with him Aldgate. Petticoat Lane.

Petticoat Lane, yeah.

And I, I go over there, and I didn’t get, tailoring job, but later, garment. As a machinist.

Was it in a shop or a factory?

No, factory.

Factory? What was the factory called, can you remember?

Er, I can’t remember name now. But other I remember, ‘cause, ‘cause that factory, I work only two, three days. But other factory was E. Brown.

In, still Petticoat Lane?

Same.

Same road? Yes.

Middlesex it. Over there I work about five, six year. Piece work.

And what was it like working in London, was it the first job was working in the leather factory?

Yeah. But in later, that time, you know, later got good, good money. You know, only xxxx, er, machinist get eighteen pound, twenty pound. But you, I was working over there, piece work, I am, er, twenty five to thirty pound.

A week?

Tax free. That was good, good money. And then I, I, I um, wife say I want to work, so she did, she didn’t know anything over there, she didn’t work. She was house wife. So I, every day I, I took, take my wife to Aldgate, the other clothing factory, for training. Two weeks I take, after two weeks, this, they send her home, trouser, so she, but er, after eight months, I left Enfield and went to Seven Kings, Ilford. Because my friend, my friend was a living there, he, Renault Park[?], he say, he’s plenty house, he has big house. So, two room, separate kitchen [coughs], and thirteen pound rent. So I rent, and over there we, we were overcrowded in that house, so I lived Enfield, and went to Ilford. Seven Kings. And wife, my wife, I worked all sewing my things, xxxx twenty six pound.

Twenty pounds?

And my wife…working over there weekly, she worked thirteen pound, thirteen pound, so that I, that very good too, rent. And xxxx xxxx, ten pound most cheap, five pound, will get weekly er, shopping. Five pound you’ll get lot of food. So I saved, two years, I saved to other, about two thousand pound. Then I got house, about eleven, eleven and half thousand.

Where was the house?

In Manor Park.

In Manor Park.

That house, I, I lived about twenty eight years. After my wife died, in er, nineteen eighty four (1984)…and after six year, I sold that house. And…and that money, I gave my daught-, two daughters, fifty, fifty percent. So that time, er…first the, you know they married well, and the other one married in nineteen…ninety nine (1999).

What year were they both born in?

Er?

What year were they both born in? [pause] One was born, you’ve got two daughters?

Er, did they, er, yeah. My elder daughter was six years old when I get, and the younger was four years. So, when my wife was xxxx, they say, girl no need much education. So, they left school after A Level, but when my wife died, and that girl say, I want to go to university. Then I, I agree, because er, opposition gone. I, I er, want them, her, them to marry quickly.

But you don’t, you didn’t mind?

No. I sent her Norwich. And the younger one, sent to America. North Carolina. But unfortunately, I don’t have enough money, so then, after, after BA, they take er…xxxx. Now, they both are teachers.

Ok. Are they both in London now, or one is still in America?

No one, one is er, Walthamstow. One is er, Horsham. Near Gatwick.

Ok.

Used to live London, but they, her husband got good job over there. He, Heathrow airport, and Gatwick Airport. So, Gatwick, he bought house near Gatwick.

During this time were you still working on um, Petticoat Lane, were you still working in the tailoring?

No, that, that…

When did you leave?

No that, time, Petticoat Lane, I, I er, E. Brown. I, I…I left that factory, then I opened business my, with my brother in law. Old Street, manufacturing. But er, I didn’t get much money over there. So I left over there, then I start work at home. I go to, for indoors, fashion designer. I was, I make er, fashion designer clothes, sample work. So I got…twenty pound an hour.

Working from home?

Yeah. It was a much.

And how long did you do that for?

Er…

Just…

Few, few months. Then I, I retired. And, then I work the launderette. Alteration work.

Where abouts were you working?

First, first I went, it was er, near Victoria. Near Pimlico, near.

Near Pimlico?

And then…then you know…Mount Pleasant, post office, you know? Mount Pleasant?

It sounds familiar.

Near, is, where the market. Over there was a launderette.

Is this East London? So you worked in that Launderette?

For two, three place I work. Then, in East Ham high street was one launderette.

And that was your last job? And what did you find difficult in the beginning when you came to the UK…?

Um…

What did you find difficult?

Difficult to…? Without man power, because I don’t have man power, over there, I look up to about twenty five people. My brothers family, my sister family, my brother in laws family. But my own, here, they settle their own. You can’t get any help from them. So it was more difficult. Because my…my money and everything, I invest among them. To help them, so I left nothing, and when I came here, they are now well off, but they will not, nobody care.

[laughs].

Here. So that was difficult.

So you miss the family?

Yeah, when you don’t have son, or big family.

Did you come from a large family?

Yeah.

How many of you was, is there?

Three, three brothers. And one, one sister. But all together, we were six brothers. Three died early age. And two sister died. When here, we survived. Three brothers, and their family. So one brothers, half family still live in, in Mombasa. My elder brothers don’t, two daughters, lives in Nairobi, and he, elder son, lives in Mombasa. Still lives in, over there, business.

Have you ever been back to Uganda?

Er, no, I went, came here twice.

When did you go?

Oh, last time, nineteen nineties (1990s), six (1996). After that, nineteen ninety five (1995), I went to India. Then, then I went India, ninety five (1995). Er, in, last where they are gone, I only one man I know, er, died many lived, country, in our town. If I go now, nobody knows me. And…be a stranger.

You’d be a stranger, in your onw er…?

Yeah.

In your own town? What did you think when you went back to Kenya for the first time, when you went back to Africa?

Yeah, came here it was alright. Because still it is er, many relative lives in Kenya. My, there’s, are two daughters, they are multi millionaire over there.

And a lot of er, um, Guajarati community, they came from Uganda, they all, most of them set up their own businesses. Why is that? You said before, you don’t want to be a beggar, you don’t want to sign on?

Yeah.

Is that something that you have as a family value or…?

Yeah we are, I got er, I was problem, because of um, man power. Without man power, I want to open shop here. And my, one of xxxx friend from Uganda, he helped me in Kilburn, Kilburn High Street, it was a one shop, old white man want to retire. And my friend say, I’ll, head in for money from bank. I told, I, told that time, to my brother, and one of the, their son, he come with me. I open shop, but they say, say no. You do your own, if you want. So, without man power, wife, my wife can’t, can’t do that type of work. A girl was er, six and four years old. And then I got problem, my wife got cancer…so I, it last about six years. Xxxx eighty four (1984). I helped to look after her, her lastly, she get blind, spread…I learned to cook. And work at home.

And er, raise your daughters?

Exact, ‘cause I can’t leave my wife alone. I, work over there, and look after, and cooking for…so it was a very, very hard, hard life. That five, six years, was very difficult.

Did you still have family living around, in the area or were they still kind of in Enfield and…?

No, I, that time I go.

Manor Park?

Manor Park.

But did you have, was there other um, family members around?

No, they come sometimes to visit. But er, who will, xxx xxxx, who will look after her. Nobody. I had to. So I left a job, I work at home. That is history. Now I am free!

[laughs]. Where do you, where do you feel like home is? Home, when you think of home, where do you feel like home is? Is it Uganda, Kenya, India…?

The best one…Africa wasn’t, it was a golden time. India was alright, but er, that time I was very young. Don’t care about money. And still I, er, Uganda, I don’t care about money. When I came here, I got knowledge that without money, you xxxx xxxx also. But it was, too late. But I am lucky, I still I, I was, my health was very good. You know how, how old I am?

You said you were born in nineteen twenty seven (1927), so that makes you…ninety…[laughs]…

Xxxx.

I can’t count!

You know, my real age, I born nineteen twenty four (1924).

Ok.

But my passport, in my passport it was…

Twenty seven? (1927)

Nineteen twenty seven (1927).

Ok.

Because I was, when it was er, nineteen thirty eight (1938), my brother was in Tanzania, that time I was, in school. So say, you come here, and got to school here. Because, er, in school, my record was very good, my memory was very good. So that time, I was fourteen years old. My uncle, he…[pause]…

my uncle… tell them…that my… in passport application wrote eleven. Three years less. So I get quickly admission to school. I, I don’t need to change. I didn’t change. And that time I didn’t know what… in nineteen fifty-eight I went to India. That time I went to find my birth date. But they… that time was small hospital. They registered over there. But the… I went to… over there, there is no record. They lost. They record nineteen thirty… before nineteen thirty five there was whole books lost. Then I went to my school. I find record over there. So I… nineteen twenty nine. I admitted in school, that time I was five years old. So if nineteen twenty-nine I was five, it means I born nineteen twenty four. And err… I don’t have English date so I told my daughter XXXX, because it was Diwali. Indian Christmas festival of light. That I remember my mother used to say I born on Diwali. So I told my daughter in 1924 Diwali was…

What date was it, yeah?

So they find the 27^th of twelfth 1924 was Diwali. But obviously…

Can you remember celebrating Diwali in India?

Yeah. Because you know, Diwali, I suppose is just like Christmas. A lot of fireworks and everywhere is alight. And small lamp people would use… you know… small lamp, and Bombay city electric.

What about celebrating Diwali in Uganda?

Just like India. Everywhere like that. We meet in New year after Diwali. Second day’s New year. So New Year’s is… was special.

What was the, the change like in the culture when you came to… when you came to London? Did you find… how did you find British culture?

You know still… still we celebrate Diwali. Still here… but err XXXX they don’t get time to celebrate because not only they XXXX time. So obviously celebrate here, Christmas.

Before they made it like a holiday?

Yeah, but here in East London, my… they are teacher. So they’re celebrating in school also. And now, now there’s these people also know about Diwali. Diwali is a… about ten thousand years old. Great King XXXX he came to you know… you heard the story of Rama and Sita?

Mmm, Rama and Sita yeah, I remember in school?

Ravana kidnap his, his wife. He was in exile in jungle. He was prince. XXXX stepmother bought her younger whether to get you know XXXX. So expelled for 14 years in jungle. Over there Rama was queen, king of XXXX. He kidnap Sita. And then um… make war. And release Sita. And then came… after 14 years, came home. That time was everywhere was celebration. That called Diwali… Another story is XXXX Hindu XXXX emperor was Ashoka. So XXXX is Ahoka. Not Jesus Christ XXXX. In India, Ashoka. So it is also… his coronation was on the Diwali. In India, you know, many festival, people before Diwali, twenty days, before is XXXX… it called VJ XXXX… VJ means victory

Means?

Victory.

Victory.

That err, they also celebrate in India VJ XXXX. There… one month before it’s Krishna. Krishna birth… born in that month. That also… this whole month is festival. Rama and Krishna. In Indian they say incarnation of God. They will. Hindu philosophy they… they believe God come XXXX… so they, they call God Rama and Krishna. So after… thousands and thousands years. Still, not a… you can’t replace Rama. He’s the ideal. Great son, great husband, great king. And every, everything is great and perfect. And Krishna, he, he wrote Rita… textbook… XXXX… one principle say if you don’t do something for somebody, you, you don’t drink you’ll get Rita, without Rita, what do you call? My English not very good.

Don’t worry, it’s okay.

Because they… if you do something for someone, this is not business, so in business if you sell, you get money. You think you can help somebody, you help, but then forget. So I… I think this is a great thing, because then you don’t regret. Just like me. Sometimes I look after about 25 people. Now 25 look after only one. But this is the wrong thinking. But God gave me… sent… so I still I look after myself. I don’t need any help. Even my daughters sometimes say ‘don’t go shopping. I send somebody. They will deliver it you at home’. No, I don’t want help. It is good. So Gita says [QUOTES THEN TRANSLATES INTO ENGLISH FOR THE INTERVIEWER] Do but don’t think to get something back. Do, and forget. Then you’ll get okay. Because you hurt… if you think you’ll hurt yourself, they don’t know. You hurt yourself, all the time, with your thinking. So, you forget it.

These the… the principles you passed onto your daughters

Eh?

The principles you passed onto your daughters? Those morals?

My daughter is a… they are great. Very kind. Very helpful to people, and profession is noble profession: teacher. So their…. their thinking is very good.

In terms of culture, do they feel Ugandan, do they feel Indian, feel British do you know?

They’re international

Yeah

Because they married English… no a, them… married English boy. So international. Indian, Indian, African

And you… international?

Yeah. And you know… in world, we are one family. If you near the equator, you are black. You go to north, you’re skin get redder. If you go to Australia, after thousand year’s times you’ll get face like Aboriginie, because nature change. If you live in China, your face, your features in this en-… face will be like Chinese. So I know now that this is all one family. People from Kenya, from Africa, after Sahara Desert, climate change, and then people migrate, go to Asia, go to Europe, and spread all over, but quite a lot of life is Africa. So if you acknowledge, if you go to India, you’ll get XXXX face. You’ll get black. If you go to South India, it’s a black… your hairs not curly, but it’s it’s about climate

It’s true

In Kerela, they, they were 28,000 years ago. They came from Africa to settle down. But they very… if you go, because Kerela is near the equator. XXXX, near XXXX is equator passing in the Indian Ocean. XXXX are near Uganda, so also is equator. In Kenya, there’s a railway station, and then there’s the equator. On the equator. Station is equation. Over there, is 3,000, 9,000, feet. On… from slave labour. So at night, freezing cold. In the day, is very hot

[BACKGROUND CONVERSATION]

So in India, mostly people migrate. XXXX was a white, they settle in north. Still, in South is an area, not Ayrian. They live together, and now, is mixed blood. Half is Ayrian, and Ayrian is white. XXXX is Ayrian. Greek, Ayrian. German, Ayrian. Een Turkey is Ayrian.

So now that it’s been almost 41 years now, since Idi Amin made the announcement, how do you think the story of Ugandan Asians should be remembered?

Yeah, I’m happy we are here. Because… and sad about Uganda, because we were, over there found with twenty shilling. Now is 2,500 shilling. One pound. No value. If you go to, to buy 1 loaf bread you need, you need note like this. But they ruin economy. It happens in India also. India, 1947, was patrician. India and Pakistan. Now, Pakistan, big port was Karachi. Was commercial capital. After independent people migrate from, from Pakistan left mostly non-Muslim. Left country, and went Hong Kong. Hong Kong economy was moving. After China get Hong Kong from Britain, now people left Hong Kong, went to Australia. Now Australian economy was booming. XXXX like, you know Green Street? You know XXXX also. When I came here there was one shop in Green Street. Now Green Street hardly… you’ll find anything over than Asian, apart from Tesco. And that time, you know, this Newham was poor. Now, Newham is rich. Council get lot of money, because lot of rent, so Asian’s don’t ruin the economy. And Africa as you know, wasn’t XXXX… when all the Asian left, country gone back. Because all Asian believes we are leaving here. I money, we are investing here. Not in, in Switzerland, and not America, not India. Just like Uganda, that time, they earn money and invest over there, so economy boom, was booming. After World War, Nairobi, Mombasi, XXXX big city built by Asian. Ruling by XXXX, by British, Britain time was safety. In Africa they, they don’t know how to rule. They were, they were not ready, because after India get independence, all over the world was a XXXX to get rid of… some country was ready, some country wasn’t ready. So, white people gone, and black rulers came and put money in XXXX, his pocket. It’s like Somalia. How many years? Still fighting. Ethiopia, Eritrea, fighting. Kenya, some tribe, XXXX. They say ‘we are superior’ because XXXX was XXXX. XXXX say that. The community is XXXX… Just like in Pakistan. Pakistan, probably XXXX, they have nothing. Five per cent, or two per cent people, they’re controlling all the economy. So after freedom, some people say before freedom they were happy. In here, also is five per cent people controlling, but here is different because everybody got guarantee from Queen. XXXX you will get. Clothing, and benefit. Education is free. The poor, in medical… doctor and hospital is free. XXXX is free. So, people don’t have a jealousy of, of parliament, member of parliament, because basic requirements: food, shelter, here people getting. In our country, you, you, you don’t have any, you can’t get a doctor, you can’t get education, you can’t get shelter. Here is welfare state. Third world, there is no welfare state. Money, they get five percent XXXX themselves. Ninety-five per cent… have nothing.

Yeah. Are you, are you glad you settled in Britain?

Ah?

Are you glad you settled in Britain?

Yeah, ’cos at least my future generation, they have safety here, and good future, no discrimination.

The End

Transcript not to be used without copyright

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Keshavji Mandalia

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: 12/03/2013

Language: English

Venue: Upton Park, London

Name of interviewer: Lwam Tesfay

Length of interview: 84:18

Transcribed by: Lwam Tesfay

Archive Ref: 2013_esch_UgAs_16

Interview details

2013_esch_UgAs_017

This is Lwam Tesfay interviewing Vinod Taylor on 19^th March 2013

Vinod Taylor 19^th August 1957

Thank you

Okay you want to talk about Uganda and the relationships between the Asians and the indigenous Ugandans you must understand that when I came here, I was only 14 and my experience of Uganda was my schooling days okay, during my schooling days my father had a tailoring shop and we were in a small place called Tabira Miro which was where I was born and that town just had two streets and very few Asian communities. During the time obviously we had good relationships with the workers people who were working with my dad’s shop who were tailoring for him using the sewing machines, people who were doing the stitching work. Which were the usual Ugandans that were doing the work and coming back to the house work the guys who were working for us because we did not have taps so we had to go to the well, to bring the water so they had to take the wheelbarrow and drums to fill up the water and bring it back now with all of these guys the relationship was cordial it was family you trusted them you lived with them and in fact we grew under them so if a guy worked for you it was forever like permanent employment so for a lot of them when we departed it was a shock because they did not know who was going to employ them and pay them so that was yes when Idi Ahmin looked at it he looked at it as more of a commerce situation okay in commerce you guys are far ahead and when cant the Ugandans do it and he was probably cannot confirm it but maybe he was looking for an excuse to see what he could do to empower the Ugandans the indigenous Ugandans and in the midst of that I think somewhere somebody misadvised him or whatever had happened and for sort of reasons he had a vendetta probably because the Israelis were building the Uganda airports they were doing the military barracks so a lot of work was being done by the Israelis and then I think stepped in Libya so whatever politically has happened I was too young to understand the politics of eth time so I can’t really tell you more about it but looking at it in hindsight I assume he was misguided and then personal ego probably came into it and whatever he had in this mind, this probably had him to have difficulty with Britain and a little but with the US with the west I would say and that probably led to again the expulsion of the Asians and then we are coming back to what we have spoken about as to how Britain took us on. So that side of it was my experience of Uganda and living in Uganda for the time that I could probably understand. And then having come here and reading and understanding and then you try and see the reason for his behaviour of course today people back in Uganda has tremendously flourished Uganda has been very well with the finding of oil and everything so the economy wise Uganda is doing fantastic is growing for eth past 20 years at 5/6% which is fantastic compared to Europe growth it is a steady growth, and the kind of business for example that the English used to do is now in the hands of the Ugandans, so they are running the shops, the small wholesalers and things like that. The Asian that have gone back are doing tremendously well have gone more into manufacturing base of course the Ugandans so have been very successful and gone into manufacturing the agriculture has been taken to new dimensions as well. So the growth of eth country has certainly happened but where it still needs is that the Asians understood the Ugandans if we take the take the British or Europeans to go so they will more look at it in economics terms the economics on the affinity to xx the people is different from what we had, I when I go back it is like homecoming. So it is a different feeling altogether even if I went for business my feeling would still be different towards the country than economics, so this other like of things I feel that Uganda xxxx and why we are going to be celebrating this 40 years of us being in this country I think it has also been to leverage the experience that we have had in this county and then trying to go back which is why you see a lot of eth Ugandan diasporas that was spread probably all over African are looking to go back cos they think youngsters like yourselves who feel there are much more opportunities now in the respective countries of our origins came from. So we are all now looking okay if I do get an education here if I can’t get a job what will I do? And if you feel you have an opportunity to go back it is still in your of your mind to go and do it and I think it’s a great thing, because the success of Africa as a continent is that it is learning pretty fast as well as it is in the mode of development if you look at India for example it was African is where India was maybe 20 years ago. So with the help then process will be quicker because they have learnt people have learnt the financiers have learnt so everybody is now trying to see if we can get err growth rates in 5-10 years time rather than 20 or 30 years time so the catching up process will be …. Also the thanks to the internet and everything education system, is faster people are smarter, people have more access to information now so all of that is progressive and better for the country and the growth of the country. So that so my feedback to you of my vision of Africa or Uganda going forward.

In terms of on the ground when you were saying you were growing up in Uganda the relations between the Black African Ugandans and the Asians was okay?

It was okay as far as I was please remember I was very young I was not in business as I was only a student so for me in did not matter it was fine we were not huge business again it was fine we were making clothes for day to day people so on that basis for me and the family never a problem happened as I said to you was when the military came in and they were allowed to shoot and law and order not being followed that was when it dawned on you, oh my god what is happening, you become fearful at that age for life and you do what your parents tell you to do and that it’s so as far as my experience of relationship it was cordial it was never a problem but if at the level of eth big industrialist who are dependent on are probably directing or money plaiting the politicians in contracts or whatever else that maybe a different level of thing which I don’t have experience of to tell how that relationship was. Obviously the economics was driven by but then again it’s like the happiness index for me was very high in Uganda because the GDP and all that xxx and it doesn’t mean to even people today because do I have a job yes … am I happy? Yes, Am I content yes, am I managing my day to day needs, I am fine. So that index is very high compared to Britain because in Britain everybody is probably unhappy despite having everything. So that is the way I see Uganda vies a vi life in Britain.

Can you tell me a little but about the importance of religion that it played on Ugandan Asians when they settled in Britain and other parts of Europe?

Okay I think religion it is again two fold - first what is religion? And try to understand religion in the way religion has been described?

No problem that is fine (laughs)

That is again your friend from Eretria

Oh wish she knew I was hear Silence you can take the call no problem

Yes because she is probably talking about tonight gap in recording good morning hands the phone over Lwan talks in Eritrean 10.40 mins nice to talk to you

She is teaching in a school and the idea is to put her into business

So there you are that is what I am doing (talking on the phone)

10 mins into interview - Talking on the phone 14.37

Sorry so where were we

Talking about religion

So religion to me err was important in two ways - 1 was that I was as a youngster where will I find my roots back because even when we were in Uganda the roots were there but to follow the faith Islam or Hinduism or whatever it was that faith was being followed through eth temple or the Mosque and the time when we came here there were dotted temples and then what happened is that then the community came and they started smaller places and now you can see for example the big icon in Neasden yeah the xxxxx temple the equivalent one not far from Nita cash and carry on Ealing road just by Alperton station that is another big one and then like that in Crawley where very you go in Luton so wherever you go most of the palaces have, then you have the Watford Hari Krishna temple the xxx temple and then you have the one in Soho square in Tottenham court Road so there so a lot of temples came about. However for me it was not just that it was beyond because religion is more than just a book it is more than a ritual that understanding came and then I joined the institute of Indian culture which is called xxxxxxxx to bring in the culture activities like the Indian music and traditional dancing the languages the different musical instruments so we created xxxxx which was established in oxford street in a very small palace and today it is flourishing in west Kensington it’s a huge academy and all the kind of whatever you need about Indian culture you can see it so things like that I got involved in and then we started getting accreditation for Gujarati language GCSE up to a level and things like that. Then now Oxford has Islamic studies then there is Hindu studies and all these things. This has come about, very much after because as I say to you rituality is fine in the temples and that is xxxxx you go there and whatever you believe in there a church a cross or whatever so after that what is that we need to take from so called religion into something to make Britain a more beautiful place because we have come from different diversities so how do you make this more cosmopolitan society, how do you interact to learn from each other and I think that adds colour to live err if you look now for example the last few years you know all the festivities are being celebrated in Trafalgar square for example and why because people are evolving people are understanding each other and that is very important because otherwise through ignorance religion is an excuse to fight, to create trouble but when you have an understanding of the faith and ten culture it becomes more beautiful that is how I see it and that is why hence I am involved with Tamil academy to work of imagination and the scared the sacred to me does not matter to me whether I call it Islam and yesterday as I was saying we were doing work on Sufism today I am doing work on xxxxx then after that we are doing Persian studies so I have involved myself and thanks to Britain again gave me the opportunity to involve myself in different aspects of it like Mosaic networking again going to schools talking …. The connotation was that it was funded, and that okay that because of what happened Islam was being picked on okay whatever the notion it is beyond I don’t look at anybody should be picked on for as an individual their faith and understanding in more important erm no finger is not the same so you are always going to get kind of people who are not understand things from the way it has to be understood for whatever reason and I am not here to judge mental; everybody’s right if you ask a thieve is he right yes he is right because that is my job- morally it may not be so I believe that we have to give education was very important so education means everything learning each other’s cultures is everything learning each other’s cultures education is everything when a child starts to walk is also educating how to walk. So education is very important we do work through xxxxxx Education I am a patron of it helping again to provide DVDs in different languages and it might be across Africa maybe we are doing a lot in south Africa we have done a lot in Sudan we are doing work in Kenya we are doing work in Zambia, we are doing work in Malawi, Ugandan of course through Mali clinic and across the far East as well as Latin America as well so trying to help err because ultimately the world is becoming smaller because of technology and where you can repeating things it is better to see how you can pull on each other’s strength and go forth

What would you say are the key elements of the success of the Ugandan Asians in Britain at least?

My feeling towards it first and foremost was when the Ugandan Asians come here the majority came with nothing just leave some of the industrialist they probably had accounts overseas they probably had money overseas they probably had whatever it was so these guys were more worldly than

Was that a small minority would you say?

Yes I think compared to the % yes yes I think so err there was large industrialists an people like that so you had a few of that who were into wholesalers and were importing a lot of car dealers so forth sugar manufacturers that was then so some of them so they had the opportunity to do that but not

So the rest of the population came with nothing?

They felt that 1 when we came what was the goal - the goal was to get a job - must get a job as a banker it was to get a job and err the lifestyle in Uganda was that I suppose my father worked all the siblings were dependent on him like my mother never worked in her age group so they never worked so they were always housewife or homemaker as they called them now so that was how it was. So when they all came here we were put into support from this resettlement board everything so the goal was we need a job, we need to get going it’s not worth sympathising, need to work need to do it. So our attitude was very important and I think it was our attitude that bought success. Of course there were difficulties in the 70s unemployment err the likes of the BNP Enoch Powell so there was a lot of hesitancy and again we understood that suddenly an influx of people coming, when there is huge problems here and people felt that okay so people though these guys are coming, so they are given priority over housing or whatever whatever …. There was resentment which I understand. But knowing all that, we did and sometimes. I try and see ourselves to the way Japan developed after the second world war because they had one religion, one goal, one language so we came with one goal that now we are here this has got to be home we have got to make it and with that spirit, with that attitude we did what we did and because, as I said a lot of them were small business the corner shop fitted in quite nicely. So that is how the families started growing and then again we were joined families right so supposing one guy was earning money as the father now suddenly the children are grown up and did not want to go study some did even in my generation, second generation xxxxxx didn’t go for further education as much as probably now my kids do because to them it is very, very important for me it is important education for my age it was for work and get on with it. So then the money started coming in the weekly pay packet started coming in and jointly families obviously you have economies of scale so you then ownership of housing came in so things like that were happening which probably attributed to our success and why we are …. And again as a community we realised that yes we have to move on and yes we do want to get on and yes we were probably adjusted because we lived in Africa and we were more adaptable to situations more language learning as well, because we all spoke the local district language as well as Swahili and whatever else we there so all of these things were ingredients to the success.

Do you think there were any specific challenges related to women, having to be homemakers and the having to come here?

Yes I’ll give you some examples my own mother, she decided she wants to work, she knows how to do sewing, so she went and found work in the factory and a lot of them did piece work. Piece works means that big factories like Ms Selfridge gave orders then they would send it to your home and you would seems on the side or somebody would put the sleeves on so then it went from you to another house to another house so that kind of work was outsourced so that was and they went to work in Tesco’s, they went to work in airports and it was work and it was not shameful about things……

Everybody had an attitude to work?

Yes the attitude was a job need a job that’s it

And after you started to develop you just continued to carry on?

Yes we just carried on you want to better everyone wants to better themselves and we felt that yes okay we can better ourselves and we have and we have to face challenges I personally also ways said yes okay fine this is not my mother land but this is my foster land now so I have to respect it and get on with it and maybe there are challenges but okay fine no point moaning about the challenges it’s okay fine s within that challenges how can I make it work for me. That’s what it was

The End

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Vinod Taylor

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: 19^th March 2013

Language: English

Venue: Marylebone, London

Name of interviewer:

Length of interview: 26.21

Transcribed by: Judith Garfield

Archive Ref: 2013_esch_UgAs_017

2013_esch_UgAs_18

2013_esch_UgAs_18

So this is Lwam Tesfay interviewing Shamim Haji on the fourteenth of March two thousand and thirteen. Shamim can I, can you start by telling me your full name and your date of birth?

Yeah I don’t want, I don’t know my date of birth but just that my name is Shamim. Shamim Haji.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And where were you born?

I born in Kenya.

Whereabouts?

Er…Dar es Salaam. Yeah. Dar es Salaam.

Do you know what year roughly you were born in?

No no no.

OK.

Long long time now I am old.

Laughs inter

I forget because I have stroke.

Mm-hmm.

Everything I forget.

That’s OK no problem. So, er… do you come from a large family?

Eh?

Do you come from a big family?

Ye-yeah, no no. mm...I have big family Pakistan…Kenya. Now, die, everybody die. Now my mum is die, my brother die, everybody die. Now is nobody in the Kenya.

Did you grow up in Kenya or did you grow up in Pakistan?

And now I go the Pakistan then I come here. Then I married.

So how old were you when you left Kenya? To go to Pakistan?

I don’t know. Long time I forget.

Is this before you got married?

Before. Ya, before.

Yeah, and when you came to Britain what do you remember the most? What was your favourite memory when you came?

Here?

Can you remember when you came here, yeah? First time? Where did you live?

East Ham, here East Ham.

Can you remember what the house was like?

Sometime I forget no.

Yeah.

Before I know everything.

Mm-hmm.

Then I no have stroke, now I forget no.

When did you have the stroke?

Er, because I have high blood pressure, too much headache.

Mm-hmm.

Then I have stroke, then I forget everything.

Do you remember anything about Kenya?

No no.

What about the food you use to eat…or…?

No, I…yeah I know. I eat outside restaurant. I eat the chicken this is.

In Kenya?

Ya Kenya, very nice and very tasty.

What was Kenya like as a country?

Very nice country, for me very nice. And lucky Kenya. Because no Kenya is very warm for me no.

You like the hot weather?

Yeah yeah. I like it.

What about when you came here, it was…?

Yeah I feel the cold.

[LAUGHS].

A little bit I’m use to it now. But this country is very nice. He provided everything. Now I appreciate and, I realise no.

[FRIEND INTERRUPTS]

It’s OK.

[FRIEND TALKS TO INTERVIEWEE IN URDU].

You know a lot of the Asians that came in the…nineteen seventies, almost forty years ago because Idi Amin…er…expelled them from Uganda.

I don’t.

Yeah. A lot of them like Mr Mandali…

Manda.

…said he’s from Uganda and the dictator Idi Amin said you had to leave.

He leave?

Yeah, he said all the Asians had to leave…

Ah-ha.

So then went, a lot of them they came to UK…

Oh…

They came to Leicester.

No everybody is er, er, come UK but everybody when he…enjoy go to Kenya. Kenya is very nice country. And warm country. Everybody enjoy there, even white people they go there and enjoy there.

Yeah.

I see, when I have before…no I have stroke. I said my children, is said mum, I… love your country. Can you see…show me, which country you are live there before. No I know language. Kenya language.

You know Swahili?

Ya Swahili everything. Jumbo, habarisana, mjori, asante sana, I know. Just little bit Swahili I know.

Yeah.

Now everybody then I, I said ok I don’t have stroke. Because I young, no. I said ok, my children love country no. they said which country you born, I want to see. Then I go there. There I enjoy. I go the swimming pool.

Did you go back to Kenya?

Ya, three…four months I go, then again …I enjoy XXXX my children, no. and er, three month I go Pakistan. Both country I show my children. Everybody my children enjoy very nice country. Then before I come here, then I have stroke, at least I show my children.

How many children do you have?

Yeah.

Can you tell me a little bit about them, how many boys, how many girls?

No I have one only daughter. He married Pakistan.

Mm-hmm.

Then he live Pakistan. Ya.

So one daughter is in Pakistan?

No, only one.

Only one ok. And she’s in Pakistan?

Pakistan yeah.

But you took here to Kenya?

Yeah. Before he no married my children no married, young…little small. Then I show my children Kenya country. He’s like so much.

What does she like?

My daughter, swimming pool…there restaurant. Everything, warm weather. He enjoy very nice. There is people very nice. The language knows everything.

Do you miss Kenya?

Yeah, yeah. I miss, lot lot of thing. Before now I have stroke, I want warm weather no. because I can’t be walk. Then I want warm weather because I do go there. My family all died nobody there.

Can you remember what your mum and dad, what they use to do…when they were in…your dad, what did he use to do in Kenya? When he was working?

There, he’s working my have dad is butcher job.

Butcher?

Butcher working. Lot of, no, money my dad no.

Did you live in Nairobi, or Mombasa?

No, no Mombasa Dar es Salaam.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He was a butcher?

And my mum is, the…the…Nairobi. Then I born Nairobi, then I live I don’t know what happened. Then I leave other, other area no.

Maybe Mombasa, maybe Nairobi?

Maybe Mombasa, maybe I forget.

Ah ok, that’s ok.

Sometime I forget, no. sometime I know.

Yeah. It’s ok, it comes back and it goes.

Ya, come back yeah.

And er, can you remember a little bit about…what Nairobi use to look, Nairobi use to look like, or Mombasa?

I don’t know.

Do you know of any special places you use to go?

No no.

When did you take your daughter, er…what did you, what did you remember seeing, from before?

Just swimming pool there. It’s swimming there, and go the restaurant, most places go there like park…like er, animal and any stuff is looking there no. now I’m long time I forget.

Yeah.

What about Pakistan?

Pakistan is nice. So so just my children like Kenya.

They prefer Kenya?

Yeah she likes daughter, and my children, other son like Kenya.

And where do you think home is? When you think about home…

Yeah?

What country do you think of? Do you think of Uga…er, Kenya…

Now I…

Or Pakistan or London?

I like London, yeah. I like it so much because London because every government is helper disabled people. He give me everything provided, everything, now I forget it er…Kenya. Laughs

When you first came here was there a lot of er, other Pakistan…

Yeah yeah just er, if you go Kenya just enjoy and come back.

Ok, just for holiday.

I can’t be leave my, this country. England is best.

Yeah. Not as, not as er, not as warm as Kenya?

Laughs no just, just go and enjoy like er, no, restaurant go and come back. Just enjoy no.

And your, your daughter, does she…does she still go back to Kenya, do you think?

No no she doesn’t go. His no have time. He busy this country no.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She’s here, Pakistan?

Pakistan.

Pakistan. What does she do?

Ha?

What does she do?

Just, my husband. She is husband is working there.

Ok.

His mum dad there no. that’s why.

And how many, do you have any family in…in London?

With my daughter?

Yeah apart from your daughter?

No no no.

Do you have any like er, photographs, that you keep at home?

I have, yeah I have photograph. Even Kenya, airport, I have photograph. I sit in the car, restaurant, I have all stuff there.

Is it when you were a child or when you were…?

No when I go the, Kenya.

Yeah, recently.

Then with my children.

Yeah.

Then my children is like Kenya no.

Do you have any pictures when you was er, a child? A small child?

No no no. I don’t have. Because er, my mum is die, I don’t know what happen, now I grow up come here, then I busy for London (laughs).

What were you doing when you came here?

Ha?

What were you doing? You, married?

Ya married, now…

Where did you get married?

Yeah here, London. Me, my aunty, you know my mum is sister son.

Your mum’s sisters son?

Sister son is live here. He my mum is British. My, mum’s sister is here, this country is British. Then his son is very nice, than, somebody married him.

Do you have pictures from the wedding?

Yeah I have all of them. If you tell I bring.

Yeah? That’ll be nice, then I can come in next week?

Yeah, OK inshallah.

Do you, what do you remember about the wedding? [LAUGHS]. You can look at the photographs, you can see? What colour was your dress?

Red.

Red?

Er…

Did you have a lot of gold aswell?

Gold, gold lot of. This country too much.

[LAUGHS].

Money money money.

It’s quite expensive isn’t it? And what do you think of East Ham? Of the area that you live now?

Ya, I don’t like East Ham.

No?

…because racist area, there no. I tell my social worker please I request you, I beg you, can you move this, er, area, because before five year I live here because I walk. Everybody XXXX, staff look after no. now near the park, somebody, sometime take egg put it in my window, sometime come in the garden take my stuff and go no. then I can’t be stop no, because I can’t be walking , XXXX no. that’s why I can’t be seeing anything. Then I sit, tell social worker I don’t like this…area now. Before I lived five year suffering here. Now I am in the wheelchair no. I can’t be doing anything. Now can you move me, give me downstair house, at least I go the toilet, I move. Now this house I can’t be go upstairs see what happen, upstair. Just stay, then I have lift, then I do shower, carer take me in the lift, and take upstairs. Then I shower, it’s too much hard for carer no. one hour, five minute it go, leave it and go.

So you’re waiting to have a new house? Do you want to move?

No I waiting how can social worker doesn’t apply, doesn’t tell me, I give to, downstair house no. because everything is down, at least I see my stuff no. no.

Where were you living before East Ham? Have you always lived in East Ham?

Yeah I lived East Ham, but er, because I walk no, alright for me.

Yeah.

Now is, upstairs stair five, seven year I don’t go upstairs, see my cupboard, see my stuff. Only go one day, Saturday, carer come and take me upstair and shower.

Is that her name, carol? Your carer?

No no no. [PAUSE]. Different different carer. Everyday different, everyday different, no.

They come to your house.

Yeah, then take me upstair and do shower because I can’t be go upstair with lift.

You have a lift in your house?

Yeah, no. inside my room. My room, which I sleep there, the no, living room there is lift. Then I go upstair, in the room lift take me in the wheelchair, upstair then I do shower then come back in the living room. This hard for me. Lot of I have stroke, I suffering too much no. this thing.

Pause.

This is my feeling.

Yeah.

Do you like to look back at, some of your, do you like looking back at your photographs?

Sometime, if I look then I cry no.

Yeah.

What might happen, what XXXX, god give me, punish, I’m in the wheelchair I can’t be move one side no. until I waiting toilet, I eat waiting food, when carer come give to me then I eat. If I hungry, I can’t be go up, go there no. this thing.

Yeah.

My life is too much tough.

Do you like coming to SUBCO?

That’s why I’m come SUBCO, home, my XXXX, I bored there. More depression, headache that’s why I come here, four days at least, everybody there, I sit there no.

Do you, do you enjoy coming here? Or, you feel more comfortable?

No, just, how can enjoy what is this. Just sitting and go home. Like that.

You don’t enjoy the activities?

No, no anything I don’t enjoy.

What do you like watching on TV when you’re at home?

Home I don’t watch the TV, just praying.

You pray?

Yeah.

Were your family religious?

Yeah…everybody no. even I’m Muslim, my XXXX.

Do, do you remember when you were growing up, were you, were your family religious in Kenya?

Yeah yeah, yeah.

Even in Kenya?

Yeah.

Where there a lot of mosques?

Yeah.

Same like here. Here is mosque nice and there is mosque. Everybody go there and salah in mosque.

Is it Asians and black Kenyans together?

Yeah.

There was no separate mosques?

Everything.

It’s mixed. Did the Kenyans and the Asians did they get along?

You know, lot of Asian there. And Arabic Muslim, everybody there.

And the, the black African aswell.

Yeah. Is…Muslim, he speak Allah, everything.

Did they, did they get along, was there any problems…can you remember?

No, no. when I go no problem, anything I just happy.

Peaceful?

Now I don’t know.

Yeah. I’m sure it’s changed.

Yeah its change, you go?

No.

How can you know, you change?

It must change. If you were, if you were there say…

Yeah.

…thirty, forty years ago.

Yeah, too much.

Who knows.

Everything it change. Somebody told, everything change no.

Even if I come tomorrow this place will change.

Yeah yeah yeah, yeah.

[LAUGHS].

If it change, then I said if it change, this is go there…

Laughs

…even somebody no, even woman, somebody five minute it change. He leave husband, he leave…wife like that. Somebody want to change, five minute. I can’t believe this country life no. XXXX.

Thank you Shamim.

The End

Transcript not to be used without copyright

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Shamim Haji

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: 14/03/13

Language: English

Venue: Upton Park, London

Name of interviewer: Lwam Tesfay

Length of interview: 17:32

Transcribed by: Lwam Tesfay

Archive Ref: 2013_esch_UgAs_018

Interview details

2013_esch_UgAs_019

This is Grieg Campbell I am interviewing Raj this morning right raj can you please tell me your full name and spell it for me?

Okay my name is Rajnikand and the surname is U-n-k-e-k-a-t

That is great Raj and can you tell me your date of birth

20-10-52

52 and can you tell me the place of birth and what town you were born in?

I was born in Gujarat in India

And can you tell me when you left India to go to Uganda?

When I was 6 years old

When you were 6 you were quite young

Yeah

And can you tell me where you moved to in Uganda?

In a town called Jinja

That was quite ….

Around 58

Around 58 and that was a town that had quite a large Asian community can you describe jinger and what kind of place it was to grow up?

Eh

What type of town it was to grow up?

Nice, nice small town by the Lake Victoria and it’s on the equatorial? The weather was nice I think it is a farming community for local people Jinger is the second biggest town in Uganda

So behind Kampala? And did you go to school in jinger?

Yes I did

And do you have any memories of going to school did you go to an Asian school or mixed

No it was a mixed school were there most of the Indian and a few of the locals

The African communities

Yeah

And can you tell me what you did with your friend the recreational things you did after school?

Ah they only thing we had then was a place called YMCA yeah that was all and everything that we had in those days so we would spend our evenings there playing table tennis and sometimes Hockey and the other hobbies I had then was playing volleyball

It seems to em I you are probably the 10^th person I have interviewed from Jinger from the Ugandan Asian community and it seems like sport was very important for eth community?

Yes in those days there was nothing like DVD or what we’re have here all we had then was playing sports

And did you mainly play sports with the other Asian member of eth community did you play it with the Black Africans or white English?

Table tennis and Hockey was played together were as volleyball was splayed with only the Asians

Okay and cane you perhaps describe the Asian community obviously I know a bit mo9re because I have been doing the project but to a lot of people in Britain we kind of vide the Asian community as one big community with perhaps we are not aware of eth different religions, different cultures and even the different languages within that it seems to me the Ugandan Asian community in jinger was (phone goes) not one community it was lots of different communities

Lots of small communities mainly Jinger was Hindus more that the rest of eth community all hard working people some had small industries, few had very big industries the majority of them were working as labourers

Okay and who were the kind of people who owned the business in jinger back then

I think that a couple of them the big ones was passed onto them by their parents er like the methas and xxxx the big names the rest were the small ones big in away but not

Not quite to that level can you tell me about the way you engage with the members of the Asian community for example erm I was told that a lot of members of eth Asian community celebrate each other’s festivals together so Eid would be celebrated by everyone, Diwali so can you tell me how different members of eth Asian community interacted?

Er there were a few temples in Jinger and most of eth events happened in the temples and Dwiali was celebrated on the street itself. People, there you had no restrictions of using fireworks so we were looking forward to Dwalie and other events were happening in the temple maybe one or two halls were available for other things like weddings or small parties.

So Dwali was the big festival

Yes big festival

So you didn’t get much sleep that night I can imagine?

No and we had a good time was the Easter XXXXX that happened every Easter so we used to follow if very closely and we would work all night and stay somewhere in the corner where we were hoping it once were the cars would pass by and we would go from 7 in the evening we know that baby would still be coming at 2 in the morning but still we were there that was how exciting it was

So wicked… so any excuse to stay up late (laughs) that’s wonderful can you tell em why your parents moved from Gujarat to Uganda?

For opportunities

For work

Yes for work my father in India was er was xxxx because my uncle that is on my mother side he was born in Uganda – my mother as also born in Uganda so they brought my dad to Uganda for better opportunities and that is it

And can I ask if you don’t mind what jobs your dad did when he went …

He used to work in financial bookkeeping

So financial

Yes bookkeeping

Okay you mentioned that there was a small number of African black Africans in your school can you tell me what the relationship was between the Asian community and the black African community was it a friendly relationship or …

You see they were brought into school later stage because they wanted to be countered as equal to the other students so slowly slowly we got used to then and we were not used to it in those days but then they became friends and we used to play together haven’t said that there was only about 10% in the class where as the others were mixed

So it was quite a small number

Yes it was quite a small number

So I suppose when you are a child you are very innocent race is not an issue

No nothing like that nothing

Don’t think that

No never came to mind at all err but they felt it naturally there must be some race now now in seroti and so on

I suppose as a child you don’t think you are very innocent you don’t think of people as being a different colour err you know you see them as being other children

Yeah

Erm you said that maybe there was a little bit of tension later (phone goes) you can tell me when you remember you you remember a point when there was a bit of tension? (Phone goes) was it Adi Ahim?

Just before then

Before

Yeah I think around 70 not early I would say around 62, 63 then they wanted they were talking about Asians err taking over everything err they don’t have any opportunities in any field so in those days they wanted to nationalise all of they want to be part of err everything and even then there was talk of us leaving the country and them taking over so we actually left Uganda in 1962 for a few months fearing that there would be some kind of .. But nothing happened. Then we came back my dad was still in Uganda when we went to India just to be on the safe side

Yeah so that was after independence then

Yes yes

So even in 62 after Uganda got independence there was a fear amongst the Asian that there could be a revolt?

Yes yes

Against then that is interesting I have never heard anyone say that so erm so can you remember lets flip forward to Adi Ahmin do you remember where you were when he made that infamous declaration that your community had 90 days to leave, do you remember where you were?

I was here in London I came for my education my parents were my sister and brother were all in Uganda I came here in 1970 1971 he announced at the time that the Asians have 90 days to leave and then naturally we talked on the phone and erm nothing was we thought he was playing err a game with the British Government in those days and err then things started getting worse from then onwards for the Asian I was there and my parents and everyone was there

Were you scared for your parents and your brother and sister safety?

Yes of course yes not that much we did hear one or two incidents where by robbery was common but beating up Asian was not heard of in those days one or two then you hear and people start getting panicky there was talk of them getting beating and so on and then yes then on the announcement we all took xxx then as days passed by then we realise that he is serious about this

I suppose the reputation of Adi Ahmin was he often said things but did not follow them through?

Yes

So initially you thought it is just Adi Ahmin joking or friendly

He was mad really cose what we hear then also because (phone rings on the phone) we I think he was mad definably because was killing his own people anybody he did not like in public he used to pick them up and throw them in the river and err there is a lot and even today people talking about him

Well a lot of the world are still talking about him and not for good reasons. So you were over hear can I ask what you were studying over here.

I started my first years in A levels because my father was only xxx in Uganda and then what happened was 90 days period he decided that any Asian who has not got a Ugandan passport would have to leave my father was a Ugandan passport holder so he thought nothing would happen to us we were there and we were young so we could be living with him as a dependant. And my mother was a British passport holder.

Ok.

So, er, what, what happened then? Yeah. Let’s see, I’m lost. And so, this passport was rejected, by the authorities in Uganda, because what happened was, they had a little time to decide who is Ugandan and who is not Ugandan. So, if you like, this is Ugandan, this is fine, this is not Ugandan, but still having got a passport, this is rejected passport.

Out xxxx.

So, it, he was stateless.

Uh huh, so your mum had the British passport?

Yes.

Yes, so she knew she could at least come to Britain?

Yes. And I was here, and I came er, I, because I was here, my mother came here. And my father was a stateless. So he was taken to er, Italy. By Red Cross, in those days [phone rings].

Oh wow! So he escaped to Italy?

Yeah because, Red Cross, was only er, [phone rings] at the time xxxx, in to this er, refugees situation.

Hmmm.

And er, my brothers, well they’re all Ugandan born, so they had Ugandan passport, but they were young, so er, the alternative was either to come here, or…the Red Cross was giving us a choice of other countries, if we want decide to go.

Hmmm. Were you scared at this point that perhaps your family could have been split up completely?

Yes, definitely. Because what my father did, in panicking, er, was that he send my brothers back to India. With my, with my distance uncle, home. I was, my mother and I was here, and my father on his own in Italy. So we struggled for nearly a year, to get together.

And this…

British too. Wait a long time to when the records to be signed, where, they would be going. But er, so we were, yes.

And could you perhaps describe that period of that year, where your brothers and sisters were in one country, your dad was in another country, and you were here with your mum. I mean, were you, did you feel quite lonely, were you scared that you wouldn’t see…?

Without money, we didn’t have any money xxxx, there were not, Asian, there were not many Asian around. So, everything was difficult, because my, my brother were all younger than me, so they, quite young, they were fourteen or say, xxxx fifteen years old, and so on. And er, and without money to be there, and my father was, looked after by Red Cross, but helpless without any, any money to give us from there. And I left my, my college straight away, because I couldn’t afford the fees and so on. So I, er, next thing was I started working.

Hmmm. So you were, I suppose at this point, the, the, you were supporting the family?

Yes, yes, in some ways, yes. Yes. Because, then my mother was here, she was very sad, upset, and she wanted to see the rest of the family. So she, she went back to India to see the, my brother and sister, er, in India. But we could not, in those days we could not, she could not bring them here until, it was not decided until my father, here, or where ever.

Hmmm. And finally your day was um…

After many, good year, one year, nearly one year, we decided, if father can join here.

So perhaps can you describe the um, your feelings when your dad arrived in England?

Oh, they, it was excitement. And there were, it was the first time I hugged my dad. Before then I never hugged him. Here, hugging is, is common, you hug here ten times a day, everyone you seen, you’re hugging. In those days, um, we had a good distance from, although he was my parent, er, my, my father. But er, hugging was not there.

Wow.

And er, I’m, then we, I, we, er, this was time I really missed him. We had a simple life in Uganda, we were not er, not in a big way.

Hmmm. It seems to me a lot of people, especially the um, some of the members of the community who lived outside of Kampala, they describe like, a very nostalgic, simple…

Simple. Very simple life.

Basic life, but happy life, it seems.

Very happy, very happy life. My father [phone rings] was not a big earner, and er, whatever we had, like if I want to buy clothes, I have to wait one year. Diwali time was the time. We used to buy a pair of clothes, or shoes, or shorts, shirt. Anything you buy, that was the time he would allow us to buy. And that’s it. We wait for, next year. And the school, then we had the school uniform. So the school uniform, we came at one o clock, from eight till one we studying, and then at one o clock we change the school uniform, and er, go for the second pair of clothes we had at home. And that was basic for us.

Wow.

And there was, er, again, we appreciated what, what was, what we had then.

Hmmm. The less you have, the more you seem to appreciate things I suppose.

Yes, yes, yes. And I, a couple of times when you see others, er, having a little bit more than you, well then you, you miss it, and er, but then again, then I was young and I didn’t realise it, my father could not afford it. But then I, sometimes I, I cried, and sometimes he said, no, and sometimes he said yes, and it was small, small things.

Of course, of course, [laughs], and you’re very happy when he says yes!

Yes, yes, my pocket money, in those days was, like today’s, half a penny. Those days it was half a penny a day.

Xxxx

And the xxxx. No, I xxxx we didn’t dare to ask anymore.

Hmmm. And um, so your, your family finally gets reunited, does your brothers and sister come over from India as well?

Yeah, yeah. Happier.

And where, where did you base yourselves?

Then we were in Finchley.

Ah, really?

Yes, we lived in, with my Au-, other relative in those days, in two bedroom flat. Because, er, then we were lost altogether. We, we didn’t know what was happening. So, so they allowed my dad in, and er, then we, in those days we were looking, living with my Aunt. In a two bedroom flat. [voices from outside]. But then what, after they allowed my brother and sister to come through, er, we, we rented a place. A small place. In those days we pay twenty five pounds a week, rent. To get that place, and so we started.

So your, your family is finally reunited…

After a year or so, yes.

You finally left your um, the other place, and you actually, you’ve got your own…

Yeah. House.

And I suppose that life started again, I suppose at that point you know.

Yes, yes, yes.

No longer you have to be scared?

No, no. We worked hard, I used to, in those days, er, because my qualification was not there. So I could not get a right job, then I used to do lot of, part time jobs around. In those days, jobs were easily available yeah. I used to work er, in a, in a small place, like a bakery, or a grocery store, or a, or a factory down the corner where we worked for tow three hours I used to do three jobs a day just to keep the family because I am older so we believe still in that

In your culture that

Yes older one takes the weight yes yes

So erm you are working hard to support your family and your dad comes over can you tell me what type of relationship you had with the British people when you arrived? Obviously you came a little but earlier but I mean what did you think of Britain when you first arrived because a lot of people had a perception of London being Buckingham palace

Yes

The reality is very different

Yes very different

What was your first reaction

Went to live in London, at last that was what we though, we did not realise how hard it would be. As we grow older because it was an excitement really together the family we never though that the excitement was there, but job wise I think it was difficult to get the right job for me my education was not that, so I think that was what I would get but for others they were still having difficulties getting jobs

They had got qualifications back in Uganda but could not use them here?

Yes yes

It must have been very frustrating I suppose and for you I suppose as you were excited about doing you’re a levels you are working three jobs a day

Yes yes, three jobs a day then I was studying and working as a mini cab in those days there was no regulations, so two three hours of eth day I would just do some driving and so on. After two three jobs I started looking for a better job and I got an office job er then I was not settling down there so I started going for looking for another job to do, bureau in those days we had a lot of employment bureaus I don’t know if you would know but there was a lot in city area, so I got a good job in a bank without any qualifications and they interviewed me for ten minutes and they said I could start next week and that was a good start for me and my salary was 900 pounds a year.

And how old were you at this point?

This I would say I was around 25

So at least you stopped having to do your cab and three jobs a day and finally got a normal well paid job?

Yes in those days it was a well paid job

How did you feel when you got your first pay cheque?

Oh the excitement was there but it was the money in those days I used to give all my money to my mum for the housekeeping nothing even till today I don’t have any friend so friends was out of the question so I could se myself my background we did not have any money to spend around having friends and enjoy because xxx does not coming into my book even today

Sounds like you have had a very hard working live?

Yes to bring the family here I really really worked hard and ….

You have achieved a lot because if it

Yes and then what happened was after a couple for years as my banking job we went to India to get married to my mother and I went to India and we met a good friend of my uncle who was a diamond dealer and he said er why don’t you start think something of what we do here in England back in London and I used to work in Oxford Circus in those days so Hatton Garden was near to us so he offered me his diamonds so I tried to look for a market in England and then Hatton Garden is five minutes by train from Oxford Circus so I used to spend my lunch hour looking for buyer I used to go round with a small bag of diamonds looking for buyers of eth stones and being innocent then, because it was out of my … in those days they would send me something like 2 and a half thousand dollars of diamonds and because my salary was £900 so they send me 2 and a half thousand dollars and I would say that is too much for me so I went around small dealers in Hatton Garden and started selling whatever they wanted some wanted two piece some wanted four pieces they would pick out the best pieces out of the packet not realising what I am doing so that is how I started and t know everybody in the garden and then suddenly I started making a hundred pound a week from on that side in the meantime I got married in London my wife was working in NHS, she is Hindu and comes from Uganda but we met here she was also earning maybe a £1000 so I thought I will leave the job and started working myself towards diamonds and because then I had a small house of my own which I bought with a small deposit so the repayment my wife was enough because in those days it was low and then I started going out to Hatton Garden the small shops a couple of Asian jewellers in xxx in those days small ones they were also looking for somebody like me who would go round to other shops so I had two things in hand there so diamonds and 1 xxx jeweller and also because I had some old jewellery a couple of Asian who had nine carte gold jewellery shops so they want to offer me also nine cerate jewellery to go round and then I started doing business with English jewellers and the Asian jewellers

So it started to expand very quickly

Yes expand and then I was working from home my office was at home er and people used to call, me from in those days they used to phone we would make an appointment and I would go and see them sometimes being at home people would come from Manchester to see me at home and suddenly business started coming from there

When did you eventually open your first shop?

1978 I came into this premises because home was getting I had my son and people used to call me anytime of eth day so I thought I will rent a small place anywhere because this is an Asian community area and in those days and Asian community area and this shop was available the reason I got this the person I was dealing with he had a stall in the market so he was buying some jewellery every now and again and paying me cash and going to the stall and selling an making a little profit and his father had a shop here and he was getting all and he said if I liked the place er he would let me have half of it he would keep half of it as long as I pay the rent for the full shop and in those days it was £4200 for the year so I took a risk after a few years then I was doing mainly whole selling and in the meantime I had a lot of Ugandans coming here depositing money to use and collecting money there of vis a versa because we had a bureau system then these things started coming through people from Uganda were buying things they were looking for a place to leave or to pick money in those days there was restrictions of money laundering or any of these things

And a lot of people were sending money back home or bring money

Yes today’s it is happening but today it is all on the paper and legalised in those days

And you have western union today?

Yeah

So it seems to me and this fits in with the next question I was going to ask you because to me erm the reason what the Ugandan Asian community is so interesting because their celebrated a such as a success story I mean people talk about polish migrants of today and going back and looking at the Asian migrants of eth 50s or even the west Indian and Caribbean migrants of the 50s but out of all the major settlements that we have had in England the other parts of eth globe the Asian community so very much held up in esteem by politicians, the press academics anyone really

Yes

And just listening to you story it personifies that success you have just told me that in 1972 you were doing three jobs and driving a taxi and struggling to pay for help support your family and then and by 1978 you have got your first store that is a very short amount of time yes can you I know the answer for you the reason for that is hard work you were very willing to go out there and that seems to be the story of eth Ugandan Asian community it is a constant hard working and that drive to succeed what do you think that is? Where does that come from?

Well I personally I got it from my uncle he had a shop in Uganda and during my summer holidays with him because there was nothing like the holidays we never went out like we go here today in those days the only holiday we had was home or we would go to visit our uncle he had a small shop in a small village I used to go there the village live and err he had a small place for himself but 2-3 kilometres from the shop so he would leave us in the shop and if the car would not work we would sleep in the shop at night and the sleeping bed was the counter itself that is now we spent our time but that again it was wonderful for us

And adventure?

Yes an adventure yes yes because it xxxx village and you could see a lot of games passing by in the daytime so that was now I got my ideas and my business in those days this is now we do it but it was a small shop selling small items like (phone rings) er kerosene or cloth and as on radios in those days, it was what small shops would be selling (phone rings) salt and sugar

A sort of small market?

Yes a small market for the local people in those days it was nice I can’t forget even today if today if somebody tells me, I have been to Uganda many times since then just to go back home

It seems erm was there ever a point from 1972 that you thought that one day you and your family might one day end up back in Uganda or did you think once you had left that you were here to stay?

I did go once I stayed there for a year so but because my young son there and the security in those days when I went sometime in 1980s sometime I did not want to go because in those days there was a lot of opportunities for anybody go there it was a good place to start and my uncle was still there as he was still a Ugandan passport holder so I had a home there I tried but because of xxxxxx and the family I did not risk it.

Had he left power by then?

No he was still in power

He was still there how did you feel about that when you first went back?

He then became quite after the Asians left things things were bad my uncle used to tell us but not that bad what we went through in the 70s

and what was your feeling when you first landed on that tarmac?

Well I wanted to see my home where I used to live the place when I used to hang around that was under the tree where I used to go and pick fruit I used to climb the tree and sit around because afternoon to kill time we would go round to pick fruits because a lot of fruits were around especially in the school area there is no body to pick them up so we use to spend a lot of time doing or fishing hat because lake Victoria was round the corner so it was just walking so we went fishing from 2.30 -6 O’clock then now I am vegetarian it was fun

So obviously you went back and you were remembering a lot of your days as a child?

Yes yes my son and took my wife and spend time because by the lake there was er a field a proper filed where you could pick anything you can sit around hang around and that is my what we use to do on the weekend hang around there we had our own post office there so it would be delivered we would have to collect from the mail the post box so we would hang around there

So as you say you just confirmed what you said very simple basic but very rewarding life

Yes a very good life my father was a small bread earner but we had a good a good life not a life xxxx a good life like others

And so you went back you obviously introduced your wife to these places you knew as a small child had Ugandan changed much in those ten years?

It had git worse the roads were bad that outside the main roads were fine but within the town it was completely run down nothing was especially where I used to live a lot of potholes no painting had been done people we used to rent in a place four or five different tenants living there they started growing bananas the local food outside the home itself and started selling eggs or cigarettes or bananas on the street in those days there was nothing like that this time when we went you could see them selling on the street to survive

Yeah I men you are not the first person to tell me that, even Prafel Patel said he went back to Ginger and his old house and there was 24 different people families living in a house he shared with 5 members of his family and he said I do have money I would have love to have bought the house, but for me to buy the house I would have to make homeless 24 people and buy the house of them I can’t afford that

Yes yes but the house itself had been run down we did not leave anything we did not have anything all me had was memories nothing else, we did not have any regret in that sense never thought of that but a lot of people did leave farms and factories and houses and so on but us it was just memories I think those people who had too much there are the ones who are suffering more here now memories still there

Yet they are very aware of what they lost as you told me you had a very simple life there anyway

Yes

Financially you did

Yes financially

Could you still … in terms of when you went back that is very interesting as I have spoken to a lot of Ugandan Asian who said they have been back and it is a very similar story but they said they did not go there and leave and live there for a yea. You were there for a year

One year, in those days when I went back you could not rent a place really there was a shortage of places, and the local people then thought the Asians are coming back to take back their properties we did not have anything I did not go to Ginger I went to Kampala, and now today Kampala is the only place I would live if I had to you been there

Yeah no I have not been there but I know it is the only big city

Yes it is the only big city now and they did have some western lifestyles although I am simple. I am living a basic life if I go I go to Kampala now it is too late for me

You spent a lot of times here

Yes

You get so used to living here it almost becomes a part of you as well

Yes because now my children were born here and I have two sons both are in the business and I have extra family so here so for me to do something in Uganda is .. we went there three years ago for a time with my boys and there was not much for them to do there now so it is not for me now to think about going maybe for a visit

As you said enjoy the memories erm that leads quite nicely on there is probably only two or three topics we can talk about then we are done you talked about your sons you brought your sons into the family business you seem I have met your son he seems sort of .. you are very proud of him you work alongside of him you told me about the wedding that is coming up which is very exciting. Are they aware of Uganda and the process you have gone through and the story of you your parents and your brothers and sisters do they know about it.

Yes we talk to them by the way my eldest one is a qualified accountant he worked with Price Waterhouse for 5 years and it was his decision to join here. Because he thinks business is business and working is working and he did not like to work for somebody so that is why he joined here. yes we do give examples especially when they were 18,20 erm to say we did not have what he is getting today because I think the children are more demanding for everything than what we were we did not have any choice that was how we were brings up everything I wanted for myself I had to go through my mum to get something so in my case and in my boys case after 16 or 18 I could tell them I used to remind them that my days was this and that

Educate them about your past yes defiantly

Yes

Last time time we went I took them to my wife’s home, which was even smaller than my town and for them to see where mum was coming from, and I had two time mill in my town and in her case so xxxxxxxer. So for them it was a hard life for us it was better.

Do you think it’s is important that the Ugandan Asians are ware of their past your children’s generation. I know you have told me that you have made your children aware of what you have gone through and I have spoken I have interviewed and they have said that they are worried that their children and grandchildren don’t know what happened they have almost detached themselves

I think they should be told and know where the parents are coming from defiantly although I was born in India my childhood was from Uganda and I think the children should be told about this there is nothing wrong in it I think there is nothing wrong in it by telling the children you are not harming their future

In fact you are enriching it

Yes

It gives them more of a balanced upbringing a complete upbringing

Yes yes defiantly yes talking about my son he if would spend xxxx I keep on reminding him think of bad times we had and I must be reminding him once a month even today so..

And they say it is not his fault

No it’s not his fault

Yes it the way you are brought up

Yes because his friend his school his friends he has now all of the same living standard I don’t have any complaint

I think you have done the right thing you have taken them back to Uganda you have witness I suppose he can put a picture to some of eth stories of growing up he can actually see these things smell hear the sounds of Uganda. In terms of err your identity what do you see yourselves as Indian born Ugandan raised do you see yourselves as British. What do you see yourselves

This is where I live, but my mind is still in Uganda even today, not like I said my children were born here I don’t want to … maybe after they get married and I retire I will think of leaving UK. For me here there is nothing that would give me piece of mind I have got everything that I can afford everything, but nothing that I love to do

Do you think you will find that piece of mind back in Uganda?

I think so 100% if I had choice between India and Uganda I would go to Uganda

It seems like your heart is there

Yes my heart is there my uncle keeps saying “why don’t you come and visit” he is there every few months, and in the meantime he comes and sees my other uncles. I have 2 uncles in Uganda and one of them is the richest in Africa (phone rings) so he wants us to visit him every now and again, if possible because I have anything spread out here now till my sons settles as well I don’t want to make a move

As you say it is something to keep your eye on for retirement

Yes I can go there or India, I got a place in India and if I go to Uganda, I have my uncles because we are still close a close bonded extended family so we go in Uganda, we don’t go to a hotel we go into the home.

It’s wonderful to hear this I have interviewed 25 people now and your certainly you’re the first person I have spoken to who has just passion still for Uganda I mean a lot of people feel very romantic and nostalgic with a smile on their face I remember growing up an fishing I remember playing cricket or volleyball but not many of them a lot of them have left it in the past it is gone now you still se Uganda as a part of your [past and future

Yes defiantly yes yes because now I think a lot of Asians are suffering financially and mentally, because of what they left, it is still bugging them suppose people are still suffering. But for us there was nothing and if I go I don’t go for money or business I am just going to live for a few weeks because then I have a choice to come back here or go to India or Uganda

Choice is never a bad thing this is now the last topic I like to talk about I also like to give the opportunity for you to send a message to Adi Ahmin I mean Aid Amin is dead now he will never will answer for his sins or what he put your community through

No

If he was sitting now in my place would you have a message for him

I think he he he what he did was political reason between the British Government and himself and things went out of hand, he paid a price, his people paid a price, also local Ugandans also because one thing is when a new person would come he would try to kill, the other side, a lot of people suffered. I have not lost anything so what I can say what he did was wrong for sure for everybody. I think if he wouldn’t have made the decision in those days then Uganda today would be better than South Africa, because the Asian would have brought it all the way, even now we are still here and when you go there you find the Asian are hard working people, and today Uganda needs hard working people even today. Now officially they are inviting everybody, they did invite people back from here and from India some are going some are not going and I think he made a mistake, if he was sitting here I would say to him you have made a big mistake. Yes

I think he probably knows that

Yes he probably knows that he like it was a blunder he played his cards wrong in Uganda it is a small country and it had a lot of riches in it and he misused them he did not knew how to use them

I think one of the riches was the Asian community certainly

Yes yes defiantly like I said if you do go to Uganda visit the Asian there you will see the changes they have made even in the last and especially after Ahmin gone you would be surprised

Like you say there is a large Asian community not just returning but coming from India

Yes because they are invited now you can come to Uganda because there is a lot to offer I think if you go there you don’t want to come back

I’ll hold you to that

I'm telling you we had a lot of British people, white people come there for many reasons they enjoyed the life

It is affectionately called the Palace of eth East? The pearl of Africa

Yes the pearl of Africa and there is a reason for it I think k I like I said even if you ask my uncle he would not dream of leaving Uganda even today and he is 82 if I talk to him and say and I do talk to him and say come here he does not want to leave Uganda because he is part f Uganda he was born there so for us Uganda is home I was not born there but it is still my home that is now I look at it.

You spent some very important years of your life there and they impacted on t

Yes a good life no complaints, you see the local people we had a good life, you see the local people the only questions was how we got on with local people, we were young we had a few but mostly they were servants really working in homes and maybe shops we didn’t not see many in the common areas, did not have any feelings for them I am sure they were suppressed in those days by different groups, but that is something…. I was very young and my father was a bookkeeper and we did not have a business as such ….

Thanks you

I hope this helps you

Yes very much

You called me a few times er

Let’s stop the recording

19B

They did not want Ugandan to come to Lester

I saw the advertising

Today they are celebrating Ugandans in Lester, because we developed the whole street the Melton street main road itself where they wanted to develop in those days in the same place today we are doing develop

Yes I saw the advert it was in the Ugandan times wasn’t it Lester Council actually took out a front page advert saying don’t come to Lester stay in London

Yes yes

And I have friends who live in xxxx if without the Ugandan Asian community I am pretty sure Lester would be a ghost town it would be like Darby or Nottingham it would have no financial future

Yes defiantly

And you know this road itself it would be a little bit quieter without your community as well?

Definably this street it was… they wanted to erm to do some renovations make it a bit better but without doing anything once upon a time the heart of London anybody any Asian coming from America, India, Australia and wanted to come to Wembley to see this place but now it is warring off now, a lot of problems with the local council, business getting into trouble all suffering

I notice there are two or three business empty and I cane her about two or three months ago and I think there is a couple closed down even in that short space of time

Yeah and this is empty, from last month and I don’t have tenant now, before this property I have had for the last 20 years, and never been empty and today nobody wants to take it at any price

You should open the old pet shop

Yes I hope I don’t know if people still go for pets now er ….

I think the problem is during the recession the problem is there are certain things you can save money from and one thing is pets it is an expense that people can’t afford it is not just buying the animal you have to pay ever week for food cleaning maintenance

Yes it is an expense people can’t manage for themselves so …they won’t for a pet

Yes, it’s a horrible joke but if you can’t afford to put food for yourselves on the table you aren’t for a pet (laughs)

Er the big stores have cleared the Markey altogether the government is allowing thinking they are creating more jobs but they don’t realise they are killing the small shops altogether

If I se another Tescos open on another street a Tescos or Sainsbury I will go crazy (laughs) I am sick of seeing

The small villages,.. the reason I am talking g a lot of small places small towns as soon as a big store is open in the place the whole street dies out

Market

The whole street dies, everything out because people can’t afford otherwise

Yes its true do you find this to mainly the Ugandan Asians and anyone in the Asian community

No anyone it’s the Asian more because of the area

Do you find do you sell online?

No we don’t sell on line just the shop, people come to the shop

Well good luck with everything Raj

Thank you all the best

The End

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Rajnikand Unadkat

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: 18 March 2013

Language: English

Venue: Shyam jewellers, 178 Ealing Road, Wembley

Name of interviewer: Grieg Campbell

Length of interview: 51.10

Transcribed by: Judith Garfield

Archive Ref: 2013_esch_UgAs_019 and 19b 3.52 mins

2013_esch_UgAs_20

2013_esch_UgAs_20

OK so this is Lwam Tesfay interviewing Hamida Dean with Ashifa Dhillion, on fiftthteen of er, April, two thousand and thirteen ok.

Interviewee Speaks in Punjabi.

Int speaks to interview in Punjabi dialogue

Hamida Begum…

Interp talks Punjabi

Date of birth, er…March twenty six, d…nineteen, twenty, four.

Interp dialogue.

Moy Dean, Moy Dean.

Mohid Dean.

Yeah.

diagoe

He csme from, her husband came from turkey to Uganda, no father sorry, father came from…

Speaks Punjabi. Dialogue.

He was a business man.

Punjabi.

My father went to uganda, he wanted to get married and there was some elders in the, in Uganda called Mama Resia, and she introduced her mother to him.

Punjabi

Two sisters, hamida, herself and her sister Aisha and one brother.

Punjabi.

The mother was African, Ugandan African.

Mhm.

Punjabi.

She was kabaka’s cousin.

Punjabi.

Who’s kabaka?

He was em…flips through book. He was king yeah, he was king er, king of Buganda and at one time he was president of uganda. She came from the royal family of mutesa the second, king of Buganda and once president of Buganda. Do you want me to carry on from here?

Yeah if you can ask her where she was born?

Again? She’s already said that she was born in uganda, she was…

Punjabi.

She was born in Kibuli, which is in Kampala Uganda.

What was it like growing up in, er…Kampala?

Punjabi

She was a year old when her father died and ….

Punjabi

Because her mother was black the asian community in Kampala em…asked her to leave the house and go. Her father was a businessman and had a lot of money aswell but she was…lets take the children away from her.

Punjabi.

Her mother told her that.

Punjabi.

They gave hundred shillings to my mother expenses and they only gave for two months and then stopped.

Punjabi.

And…all three brothers and sisters went into different, Punjabi homes, Punjabi muslim homes, as orphans and er…

Punjabi.

She remembers from the age of six that she was…businessman called Jamaldin Uqbal who was er…erm, who had er, rifle workshop and he used to clean the rifles, er…in Ugandan but he was my dad’s uncle aswell so I know the story.

Yeah.

And er…he worked for Birish army and he use to take their photographs aswell. And he adopted her, at the age of six.

Punjabi.

Im teling her tell the true story because she will…doesn’t have to tthink that because I am related to him, she has to not say the first bits. Ok

Punjabi.

What she remembers when em….she called my mother, Sakina Begum, ‘pabi’ sister in law. And the first memory of her is when she came into the house as a bride and she was thirteen.

Punjabi

She said when my…when…her adopted parents use to beat her up, em…

Punjabi

Em…mr jamaldin uqbal, who adopted her and use to hit use to say that ‘you have drunk the milk of a black woman’ and as a child she couldn’t understand what is the milk of a black woman, why it is so different.

Punjabi.

And people will…never have any…brain, cleverness

Pujabi.

She remembers when er…sakina’s first son was born…

Punjabi.

She remembers all the children being born to my mother…

Punjabi.

And then they left after two, three children. I want to rbing her back to her story, not my father’s sotry.

Laughs.

Sorry.

Punjabi.

I want to hear what you suffered, and what XXXX…

Punjabi.

Jamaldin who adopted her, he…he tried to abuse her. And…

Punjabi.

She’s saying should I tell her everything laughs

Pun

She wants…

Pun

What I can remember I might be eight or nine years old, and he said to me ‘come into this room’.

Punjabi

He wife was in the hospital and I ran, Punjabi,

And I rain to the hospital. Punkabi. And I said to his wife that his trying to abuse me. Punjabi. And… Punjabi. He brought me home from the hospital and he hit me, with his, with his belt which had spring on and blood came out of my body, from my nose. Punjabi. His wife, jamaldin wife then said to him, that’s her memory, said to him, god hasn’t given us a child because you…you have bad feelings for her. She’s only a little girl. Punjabi. Then somebody made a proposal for her, who was a Pakistani, who was India, he was from India, and…the…jamaldeen’s wife got her married off at a very young age to take her away from the abuser, she was thirteen, fourteen. Punjabi. To sort of get away from the abuse. Punjabi. She said…I didn’t even have boobs!

All laugh.

That was all, I didn’t know anything about anything. Punjabi. I didn’t even have periods.

(She must have been younger than that)

Punjabi. My husband was nice, Punjabi, my husabdn was very nice to me and we lived happily and… Punjabi. Then he died. Punkabi. And I suffred A LOT, I suffered A LOT. Punjabi. At that time I had six, six children but I’m a mother of nine. Punjabi, no house no money nothing. And it was very difficult. Punjabi. Who ever use to come and see my husband and us, once he died, they started redrawing because we were treadred as Africans, blacks. Punjabi. She said you tell. Punjabi.

Do you want me to read this? Ashi to lwam

Em…we can have a look at it after but if you can just to…

Xxxx

…whatever she can remember is fine.

Punjabi. Ah, the person we had rented the house from he chucked us out and we were homeless with six children. She was homeless with six children. Punjabi. i…the british had em, build some flats there. And I went to them I didn’t know any English. Pujabi. She said my children travelled seven miles to school, please give us one of the houses to live in, I have no money I have, nothing. Punjabi. The helped me, the gave me…Punjabi. The gave me a makan. Punjabi. Then I went to the muslim committee, Punjabi. So I, went to the muslim committee there was a council there, and I said look the british has given me a hosue theyre charging me a rent, please help us…financillay. Punjabi, my children are in school, Punjabi, when my daughter fininshes her education give her a job and she’ll return the money. Punjabi. She did her school, school XXXX was twelve standards in Uganda, she did her, her daughter did her Cambridge and use to have two plaits and she went to those people, the muslim community and she said em…the mother went to the community and said give my daughter a job and they said ‘oh she’s got two plaits’ and they just joked about her, how can she work she can’t do any work so she said…then we walked away from there and went to the Barclays bank and Barclays bank gave her a job. Punjabi. She got five hundred shillings job, her daughter…Punjabi. She can’t remember the years (ashi to lwam).

Ok, another….

Punjabi.

She said I didn’t know anything. Punjabi. She use to work so with that money we paid the rent, Punjabi. Three hundred shillings we paid the rent. Punjabi. Then we got, I wanted her to get married and I saved a little bit of money.

XXXX.

Got her married. XXXX. And she had two children. XXXX. And she died in a car accident, leaving behind wto children. XXXX. The communi…the people her husband knew, people she knew they use to help her a little bit financially, to bring her children up, give her clothes, some things like that.

Xxxx hd

She said I suffered a lot. But I never told her children, go there, bring this for me. XXXX, I suffered.

Phone rings.

XXX hd

XXX ashi

Its fine you can get it, yeah.

XXXX. ashi

XXXX hd

XXXX ashi

XXXX hd

That’s fine no problem

Xxxx hd.

Xxx ashi.

Xxxx hd

Xxxx ashi

Xxxx hd

I use to work er, there was a, a muslim doctor called doctor Mustiak. I use to work for his dad and mum in the kitchen. Helping out in the kitchen. And earn a little bit of money.

Xxxx hd,

They knew my, they knew my father very well.

Xxxx, doctor mustiak, doctor ahmad and doctor laldin hd.

Ashi

Xxxx, London house. Hd

There were few families she’s mentioning there.

XXXX. hd

There was er, London house. XXXX.

XXXXX.

XXXX. ad

XXXX hd.

I’ve asked her what was the biggest er, thing that happened in your life that changed your personality.

XXXX hd.

The biggest hurt…

XXXX

…that I suffered was my father loved us.

Hm.

and when my father died, they threw my mother in African village.

XXXX hd

And her qeutions was, we…were orphans. Why nobody looked after us.

Xxxx hd.

She says whenever, ever I see anybody who might be an orphan or who might be on low income I tell my children, to give to them. Because they have no income.

Xxxx hd

Xxxx ash

Xxxxhd

Xxxx ash.

She said I was not allowed to go out and er, the person who adopted me use to lock me in the house and go, and she was only eight years, seven to eight years old.

Xxxx hd.

She said after marriage I saw happiness but when he died it was very hard life.

Xxxx hd.

She said, I, my children all my children…

Xxx hd

I brought them up very well.

Xxxx hd.

I gave them education.

Xxxx hd.

She said because we were black nobody bothered with us.

Long time xxxx .

Nineteen seventy two, should we go onto that? Xxxx?

xxxx.

xxxx ashi

xxxx hd

xxx? Ashi

xxxx. hd

mm.

xxxx hd.

Nineteen seventy two the children were well settled, they were grown up, they were married some of them,

Xxx grandson.

My, I had grand children aswell.

xxxx.

mm.

xxxx.

mm.

xxxx.

my son was working on Ugandan tv.

Xxxx

And he warned me that there would be a lot of problems in Uganda

Xxxx

And I wanted to leave….

Xxxx

I went to the UN…

XXXX hd

She had a grandson who’s mother had left him, and he was six years old and she was, he was with her. And…she went to the UN, when she said, myself and my grandson want to get out of uganda.

xxxx.

and I rbough him with me.

Xxxx

Here, uk.

Xxxx

We came to the airport….

Xxxx

I had one big suit case, one small for the little one.

Xxxx hd.

Xxxx as

Xxxx hd

When I came here, they call me to the immigration side

Xxxx

And they asked me how I have come…

xxxx.

and who is this little boy

xxxx

her daughter, younger daughter was already in England called Safia.

xxxx.

the officer…looked at my luggage and said is that all you have? Then he phoned her daughter, Safia… its hot (fans face with hand).

Laughs (lt)

Xxxx hd

Xxx ashi

Xxxx hd

She said we were very hungry, my daughter came there, they layed a table there for us and they gave us food to eat. Everybody was very good to us in England.

Xxxx.

They told my daughter that your mother has told us the truth. She has not lied about anything

Xxxx

And then

Xxxx

Then we were sent, UN was sent walking,

Xxxx

That’s where…

Xxxx

Xxxx ashi

Xxxx hd

Xxxx ashi

Xxxx hd

All different kinds of refugees were in that property from germany and from uganda

Xxxx

And er, this lady was there was called rosemary, she found a job for her.

Xxxx ashi

Xxxx hd

She was fifty then.

Fifty.

I was fifty and I worked in XXXX called Castle XXXX.

First time XXXX.shuffles through paperwork of letters.

First time, African…

Yeah. Lt

XXXX certificate XXXX…go, go, go, you don’t do this. Then here, this certificate…and this my present [points to ornament on shelf]

From, from there?

Er..

Ehhhh ashi.

xxxX,

which one, here?

XXXX hd.

Ohhhh, she got… then she left work, she worked with CASTLE XXXX limited from nine, seventh may nineteen seventy three, to eighteen to july seventy four. She left this company on her own accord, and they ave her a very good reference which actually said Mrs Dean, to be an extremely pleasant lady getting on very very well with all members of staff. Her standard of work is very good, she has been….engaged…on operations in conjunction with the production of parts for the manufacture of our range of mini, precision, electrics which is… I can’t read.

That’s ok no problem.

Ok. Ashi. Flips paper, that’s where she worked.

Can she remember when she first got off the plane?

This interview was carried out with an Punjabi interpreter (Ashifa Dhillon).

The End

Transcript not to be used without copyright

Interview details

Name of interviewee:

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: /2013

Language: English

Venue:, London

Name of interviewer: Lwam Tesfay

Length of interview:

Transcribed by: Lwam Tesfay

Archive Ref: 2013_esch_UgAs_20

2013_esch_UgAs_21

2013_esch_UgAs_21

So this is Lwam Tesfay, interviewing Vasant Karia, on Wednesday seventeenth of April, two thousand and thirteen (2013). Er, Vasant, can I ask you to start off by spelling me your full name, and your [loud music/ringtone?] date of birth?

Vasa xxxx, V A S A N T, K A R I A. nineteen ten, nineteen thirty four (1934). [music continues to play].

Ok. Can I ask you, um, where were you born?

I was born in Karachi. It was then India. And um, and then I left as, as a refugee in nineteen forty seven (1947), to India. Other part of India. Yeah, and tell me what else?

Yeah, and um, when you left er, Karachi…

Karachi, nineteen forty seven (1947). It was the partition of, of er, India, India was divided in to two part. So one became Pakistan, and one became India. So I, I moved to India side. In nineteen forty seven (1947).

Um, and do you have a large family?

I, my own family, me, my, my mother. We the only two. But my mother’s side, we had a big family. My side nobody, my father died when I was um, one, thirteen months old.

Ok. And when you first came to Uganda, where did you stay?

I, from India, I came to Tanzania, landed in Mombassa. Moved to Nairobi for a few months, and then I moved to Kampala. Which is Uganda.

Yeah.

In nineteen fifty four (1954). On the ninth of March. And then, I got married, settled there. And lived there. Until nineteen seventy two (1972).

What was er, Mombassa like when you were there?

I just stayed there for three, four days, on my transit. And then from there to Nairobi, where I worked for about six month. And then I moved to Kampala.

What were you doing, for work?

In Kampala I started working with, with er, an English company, in, for few months. And then I worked for a company called Krup, German Company for about a year. And then I started my own business.

Those, those two jobs you were doing before you started your business…

Yeah.

What kind of um, xxxx.

Job was selling.

Sell.

Selling machinery and machinery parts.

Ok. And when you set up your own business, how did you manage to do that?

I started the business with electric toothbrush. Selling toothbrush.

Ok.

And from there, gradually I built it up, er, in to Chemical xxxx I don’t know how, but I did.

Did you have friends that you started the business with, or did you do it alone?

Hmmm?

When you were starting the business, did you start the business alone or with some of your friends…?

Alone. I was alone [coughs]. Alone I started it, alone at the age of twenty one. And um, I was importing, marketing, selling everything by myself. And my wife was helping me.

And before Idi, Idi Amin left er, made the announcement, you left in nineteen seventy (1970)?

In nineteen seventy (1970), the government of Uganda declared, a sixty forty. It means, you keep sixty and forty person in Africans. Or the government. So I thought, it’s no use staying in the country, the government interfere with the business. So I came to London, I left my family here, bought a house. A small house in Wembley. And then back to Uganda to, to my business. And, and…

How many children…

I was travelling, two and four a week, every couple of months.

When, what year was that sixty, forty policy?

Sixty, forty policy came in nineteen sixty nine, nineteen seventy (1969, 1970).

Hmm. And why do you think that the government introduced these kind of er, policies?

They wanted um, you see, so it happened that Indian were controlling the ninety eight percent of the economy.

Hmmm.

And government of Uganda at that time wanted local, indigenous people to do some business. So they thought this could be a good idea to take forty percent, and then give their own people in the business. But that didn’t work. That never worked. So, by that time, Obote was overthrown. Idi Amin came in to power. And um, within two years he decided to expel Indians. Because he realised, that Indian would not give up easily. And he [coughs], and he was right probably, I think he was right. I personally think. Hmm. You was asking, it was the question, indirectly to Indian community. They give about two percent to five percent share to our, your, your staff. And teach them business. But, so it happened that, xxxx ok, because there was no proper communication between two community. The government and the Indian community.

What was the relationship like between the, the Indian and, and the government?

Initially the, the relationship with Indian was very good. Very friendly. And he, used to talk with Indians, used to love Indian community. But then, what he wanted, Indians were not willing to give. He wanted Africans to be xxxx, or you can say, Africans to get in to business. Which Indian community, at that time, had no reason xxxx. You know, er, they all xxxx business people, small business people, some big ones. Very big, xxxx small business, because they didn’t want to give up xxxx, any business xxxx. Mr Amin became xxxx I think.

And what was the relation like between the Ugandan Africans and the Ugandan Asians?

Ugandan Asians, very healthy. Um, healthy means, they were employed by Indians, um,,,Africans were happy living Indian um, control of the economy. But they wanted something in their hands, they want it. So, when Idi Amin came in to power and he started talking about the elected, of course they like.

Do you remember when he made the announcement?

It was I think, er…was it August? I think it was May, April, May…April or May, nineteen seventy two (1972).

Yeah.

I’m not really sure about the dates.

Xxxx June, July, because most of them left by October…

No, August.

August, yeah.

Last, last xxxx.

So March, April…

By September, yeah. He, initially, he call a meeting in I think, March, April. About xxxx Indian people in. All, industrialists and business people. And he requested, here again, that do what I am saying, make African your partners, give them little business, I’m not trying to give them everything, but give something. He did that request, but it didn’t work. Again. So…

Why do you think that was?

Greed. It’s always money that xxxx. And there was no reason, that today, if I go back to Uganda, I make sure in any African country, I, I want to be, I change my opinion. I’ll make African my partner, anyone. A local person. A local indigenous people. But that time, we didn’t have the reason. We didn’t far, see far. But what happened is, for good because, I think, this my thinking, that all Indian who came here, regain, what they did was support children, um, also gradually we re-establish ourselves very good here. And now when the good days came back to Uganda, some people went back, and re-building in Uganda again. And today, the Indian community has made a good progress in Uganda. Same Indian people who were already deported, a few they went back, and they made a fortune over there. And now, in the meantime, Africans are well established, so they are happy. The local Ugandans are very well established now in Uganda. They control the majority of business.

So when er, I’m just taking you back to after the announcement, announcement was made…

Hmmm.

And your family were still in Kampala…?

No, my family was here, xxxx my own family, my wife and my children are here.

Ok.

My children went to school, we had a house. Um, but I was there. Xxxx panic.

Hmmm.

A lot of panic. First thirty days all, first, xxxx people thought it a joke. So nobody took seriously. When they started counting days, Idi Amin, then people become serious and it was too much hanging around, er, Indian government refused to take Indians.

Why?

Because they didn’t want to take liability. They don’t take.

I guess it was a shock for them as well?

It was a shock for them, probably. And the government at that time, was not really taking Indian xxxx whole colony. They say anybody with Indian passport can come. But people with British passport, is not our responsibility. And we all had a British passport. British and Ugandan passport. So, luckily British government took us, and we came here.

What was the, the atmosphere like in the city, in Kampala when er…

In earlier time?

After the announcement, yeah.

Very comfortable, very, very peaceful in place, very peaceful.

And after, after the announcement?

After the announcement, it was a lot, lot of um, hated xxxx started. Er, local people, local Ugandan opportunist, thought that when Indian leave we can take the business, we can take the things. So there was, little bit of um, xxxx put up with it, I don’t know. Er, it was um, there was no give and take. They just wanted to take everything. Xxxx

[lady - hi]

Hi, how are you?

You want stop it?

No it’s ok, no problem, nice to meet you.

[lady - nice to meet you]

My name’s Lwam.

[lady - xxxx]

I’m just interviewing, want us to carry on…

[lady -yeah, yeah, yeah].

We are talking about Uganda.

[laughs]

Yeah.

[lady - yeah, yeah.]

You need me now?

[lady - no um, xxxx xxxx]

XXXx, coming.

[lady - yeah]

Ok

[lady - whats the time?]

[coughs] Ten to twelve.

[lady - oh]

Xxxx

[lady - you want anything?]

No, I’m ok, I’ve got coffee.

[lady - sure?]

Yeah.

[lady - any cookies or something?]

[coughs]

No, no I’m fine. Thank you very much.

[lady - ok.]

So what were we saying…

Hmmm.

So, so the, the Africans, some of them started taking advantage of what was happening?

Yeah, they realised that they are going to get everything free.

Hmmm.

Indian people wanted to sell their own belongings and, all the shops xxxx for stocks. Like in my company, I had a huge stock of fertilizer. And other chemicals, was about um, half a million dollar maybe. And nobody want to buy, because they knew it was going to come free. After ninety days, if you go. They can have it. And they did.

Hmmm, so nobody would buy it?

Nobody would buy.

‘Cause they would get it for free?

Yeah. So everybody xxxx just leave. Lock with the lock and leave.

And, and you had, you still had a house in Kampala?

I had my own house in Kampala, yeah, I was just building a new house. I was living in a, an apartment like this, big apartment like this. Er, building house, which was nearly ready. We had furnished it, but we never lived there.

And was this a part of Kampala where the other er, kind of like, upper class, middle class er, Asians were living as well?

Yeah [music starts playing] they were, that time there were many area where, it, mostly city centrals, was totally xxxx and Europeans. Africans, Ugandan African were living outside the area. Except the servants, and working class. Er, but now, you see, now everybody lives together.

In the city…?

Everybody. Have you been there?

No. Not yet.

You should go and interview few people there!

[laughs] Yeah, if I can get a ticket it’d be quite nice! So when er, when the Ugandan, the Ugandan Asians started to come in nineteen seventy two (1972) you were already, you came back with them, even though you were settled, you had a British passport?

Yeah. Yeah, so many people got in to here, but I had a British passport. And er, luck, luckily I had a British passport. ‘Cause my father was born in Karachi, in the British Raj, so I had my British passport.

And what was your role in helping some of the Ugandan Asian community members?

Where, when they came here?

Yeah.

We er, had a refugee camp here, they putting them in a camp. Government has appointed Praful Patel, myself and um, Xxxx Sahir,xxxx the ward. And um, they given us money to make sure they would be get settled. We have settled many families, church had given us houses, flats, on a low rent. Which we had relocated to people. We made sure they settled. We helped them to raise loan from the bank, but xxxx network bank, it was very helpful. I think we, we all, about, twenty hundred families who started business here.

Um, how did you get involved with the resettlement board? Were you already established with Praful or…

No, Praful, no. Government are, had approached Praful Patel to start that. But Praful were, already um.

How did you, how did you know him?

I know him from Uganda because he’s from Jinja, and I am from Kampala. My wife and he was studying in the same school. So I know him since nineteen, early fifties (1950s). And he has been a great social worker. Helped the Indian community. Unfortunately he left for India, otherwise he would have become a minister I think.

[laughs]

He’s a very powerful man, you’ve met him, no?

No, no, not yet, I haven’t met him.

He’s amazing. Very reasonable man, xxxx xxxx. He, he stood as a MP but he, he lost it. And then he went to India, since last twenty years he lives near Bombay.

Hmmm. So were the resettlement board…

Then it was wounded up. Once we settled everybody, many was dispersed, and we xxxx.

And how was the, the relations with the, the British government and, and the people working on the resettlement board?

Very, very helpful. Every ministry, they come and mostly they were very helpful. They, they are. They, they really went out of the way. Even lot of local people in various part of England, er, approach us Uganda resettlement board, they sent some people to all, would help them.

And what was the feeling amongst the, er, the Ugandan refugees, I guess when they came here, because…

It was a mix feeling. Like Leicester was against, Leicester, Birmingham, those places were against Indian moving there. But many other parts, Surrey, Sussex, many church, other, they helped us to settle people.

And how do you think those, those er, Ugandan Asian refugees, when they came here, having to um, accept some of the, the…

Oh sorry…

Oh that’s ok, no problem.

I xxxx xxxx motorbility…

[laughs]

No. xxxx first time xxxx. I have a twitching. You know twitching?

Twitching, yeah.

My twitch eye, and I just took in, just about three months ago, the botox.

Hmmm.

And I was fine, but last two days. I think it’s coming back again.

Yeah, you should go to the doctor…

I shall xxxx botox, yeah.

‘Cause sometimes it takes a little bit, a while er, the effects will come back after.

Yeah. And I was told everything, three, four months take again, and now it’s already three, four months.

Yeah. Ok. So you’re due to go back?

I, I think I have to!

[laughs]

I was trying to avoid, ‘cause I don’t like to take it, chemical injections.

Yeah.

But, for injection here.

You must be an expert in chemicals! [laughs]

Hmmm?

I said you must be an expert in chemicals.

Yeah. Right. Um, what were you asking me?

The, the resettlement board.

Yeah, the resettlement board was, once everybody got settled, and camp became empty, we wound it up.

Where were the camps?

Er, there were many camps. Um, I don’t remember all the names, now.

I know that one was in um, Greenham?

We used to go there, we used to go there. Newbury, we used to go to European camps in er, Sweden, in Norway…

You went to Sweden?

The some, some people were there, so you just went to see them. So of the Ugandan people went, from Uganda to Sweden and Norway. So I, I just went to see them, to, they’re there to settle.

So you went there to see how they were doing…

Yeah.

And support them?

Yeah. And there are many, many Ugandans that settled in Sweden and Norway, and Finland.

And how did they respond to you, in, as a, you know, individually when they see another Ugandan being able to help…

They were nervous. They were very nervous, without money. But er, struggling to survive. But, Ugandan Asian community has made it, lucky, luckily. Maybe time was right, to come here you know.

Hmmm. So would the, resettlement board…

[coughs]

Um, did you, how long did you continue to be involved? Until, until the end of the year or…?

Ninety, no it was to er, nineteen…seventy three (1973), by the March, April, is, activity was going down. And I think we wound it up by the end of the year.

And what kind of other things did you do to, to, did you continue to play a role in the community?

Yes, xxxx, um, is Indian community has got many different divisions. So, within my community, I’m xxxx work, yes. Um, in particularly we have er, um, lot of activities going on between women’s side and men’s side, yeah, a lot of activities. We have, we meet here every month, every week, twice. In social club. All, over sixty five. And er, we enjoy, the meeting, and discussing and what not.

Hmmm. What was your observation, when, after the, they were in the camps and they came out, the first couple of years of settlement, what, how was your observation of the Ugandan Asian community?

Ugandan Asian community made up their mind that they are to, they realised that er, it’s not going to be as easy as Uganda. It’s going to be difficult. So, they started looking for, good jobs and gradually started buying small shops. Come to us for a loan arrangement and we help them. With, through Natwest bank. That, xxxx xxxx helping the people to get a loan, house loan, business loan, went up to nineteen seventy four (1974), seventy five (1975). We kept on helping them. Where will they put us, we took them back and teached them. Showed the bank that they would pay back. And er, thank God, everybody paid the bank back. Only one default. Because people worked sixteen hours, eighteen hours a day. And made the, made their future.

How, how many people do you think you helped er, open businesses?

How many people we must have helped?

Or maybe even at that time.

Initially, we must have helped thousands of people. But xxxx xxxx about this, but thousands. Family wise, we can say about…three to four hundred families, and we most of settled in business, in business. Helping them to buy small shops, small business. Start something.

Is that tradition of helping one another…

In, that was until recent in Uganda, and xxxx African there. All, every body would help everybody.

Where did that value come from?

I don’t know!

[laughs]

The community, I won’t be able to, because I was very young when I went to Africa. It was no, never there in India. But this practice was there in Africa. Er, maybe because, Indian moved to Africa a hundred year ago. So they, there was a, such a thing in Africa, you won’t believe it. If I’m short of money, I can, er, make one phone call, and money goes in. You don’t have to go to bank. Everybody helped everybody. And people pay back.

But it wasn’t like that in er, in India or Pakistan?

No, no never. Never. Because only in East Africa, even in Kenya. I don’t know about any other part of Africa. In Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania, it was a great thing. People helped people. Bank was even sometimes surprise at how this community is managing, it’s like Jewish community. Jews, England, when they came here, even now they help each other.

Very close, very tightknit…

Very tight, very tight, control. Er, that quality, we have lost here now. Nobody helps nobody now.

Hmmm, do you think the older generation still have that tradition and it’s just lost in the second generation, or…?

Lost, they’re lost. I think only older generation are like this, even I helped so many people here, but I don’t think anybody would help anybody now.

Hmmm.

That culture is gone. And Idi Amin was saying that to us. That if you people want to go to England, go. He was saying, openly, he said publicly to us, that if you people want to leave, England go, you can go, go to Britain, go to India, and you lose your culture. You’ll lose your…you’ll lose your family. And I think today many Indian family, have gained education, money maybe, yes. Good established businesses. Er, maybe a few member of parliament, maybe a few lord, but what we have lost is, a culture.

Hmmm.

And we are losing more and more every day. That’s the regret.

So in a way he was a little bit right, when he said if you go somewhere else you’ll lose that..

Yeah, yeah, he was right. I think he was right. He, Idi Amin, I think he was something, but I, I don’t put it down if you can, ‘cause I’m telling you…

Yeah.

Put it down in such a way.

Yeah.

Idi Amin was a, he came from a town, from that town there was a girl who use to work for me. So he used to come to my office twice a week, three times a week, when he was army man, he was not a president. He used to pass through my office and drop in to see the girl, not me.

[laughs].

Because it was, she was from his town.

So this was an Asian girl, or Ugandan African?

She was a mixture.

Ok.

Er, Congolese and something. I don’t know what type they call. And she was working there and he used to come and see her. Er, hello, and give her some, some drink for her or something, and then started saying something to me, sometime, hello Mazay, Mazay means old man, how are you. I as young but he used to call me Mazay!

[laughs].

So he used to pass, never used to talk to me much, just like this. And um, he used to take some fertilizer, some chemicals from our office, for his farm in, his swimming pool. And he used to be, he never ask for anything for free. Never. After month or two, he would come back and say how much money I owe you, and bring the order. And Amin used to pay us. So he never, he, he was not trying to grab anything. And he was, he was really a very jovious, humorous man. He used to joke with us, in the office, used to come, with my staff. Because I had all African staff, so he used to joke with them. And I used to see from my cabin, where, I never realised he would become president of Uganda.

Yeah.

He was a small army man. From there he rank and he rank and he went up, so he used to come to our office for, for, three, four years regularly. Every week, every month, five, six times. Just stop it, stop the car, come in see the girl, he was very fond of women so…

[laughs]

[laughs] He was very fond of her.

I heard he’s got like er, something like fifteen, twenty wives or something like that!

He was very fond of girls, and the girls, and this girl was very beautiful.

Hmmm.

She used to be one of our, er, junior typists in the office, in there xxxx very qualified Indian secretary, and then under her, she used to work. So, er, I knew him quite, fairly well. That, that way.

Yeah.

I think, I don’t know. It could have worked, but I think this has worked better because, I’m very, I personally very xxxx Ugandan Asian, Ugandan Indian, Indian African, helped gain the business knowledge, and they are in the business now. And let us spread it right over Africa. In Kenya was the same situation. But then, Asian or Kenya changed their mind, and they started taking African as partner, and today the both communities work together. I think similarly we could have worked together, but we didn’t.

Hmm. I as er, I’ve heard a lot of the, a lot of the Asians when they were in Uganda, they used to invest a lot in where they were, so if they were in Uganda, they would invest in Uganda?

Yeah. We had a lot of xxxx, I never had any investment outside Uganda. Except when, when in nineteen seventy (1970) I bought a house here, for a few thousand pound. I put thousand pound deposit and I bought a house. That was my xxxx.

Was there, any, any particular reason why you thought you’d buy a house in England before?

Because I want to bring my wife and children here for education.

Ok. So you were planning to send them anyway?

So, I, I had made up my mind that instead of sending four children on their own, and the situation I thought something is coming. So nineteen seventy (1970) we decided to move. Make a move at least. Run a business there but make a move, gradually wind it up. But er, that time never came to wind up.

Hmmm. Yeah, imagine if you’d stayed in Uganda until nineteen seventy two (1972) you’d be in a, in a different position.

Xxxx xxxx.

Perhaps if you didn’t buy that property in Wembley…

Hmmm.

You’d be in a different position, if you didn’t invest, even small, small investment in to the, in to England.

Yes, I could have been living in, xxxx I would have stayed in camp.

Hmmm.

And move, moved to a charity house or something.

Yeah.

But luckily that was not my case. For many Indian people had houses here, a lot of people came, to the airport, we picked them up, we gave them lift and took them to their own houses. Er, so there were many people who had a property here, many, many Ugandan Asians. It’s not that everybody came as a penniless.

Yeah.

But many, you can say, actually about thirty, forty thousand people, means about, twelve thousand family, [music] I think, eight thousand family were very hard in finance. Three, four thousand family had a money, some money. [music continues].

Hmmm.

Somebody had a million and somebody had a few thousand. But they had money. [music continues]

And in terms of like, like um, of culture and identity, how did, did the Asian community here keep their, their culture, were they still very closely connected to, to India or Uganda, or, what?

There’s not much connection to Uganda. Except people who are doing business with Uganda. Few people, who ex-Ugandan, they go there. And otherwise there’s not much connection now. But er, with India, nature is our mother, mother country so, we have a, um, we visit the Guajarati festival.

And when people started to have families and you know, raise their children, even for you personally, did you used to tell your children a lot about your experiences in Uganda, did you tell your children a lot about…?

Yeah we talk, yeah, we talked about it. Even my son he’s now thinking, my eldest son is now thinking to go back to Uganda. And do some business there. Just, doing the business, doing the business in Malawi and Zambia and everywhere. Nairobi also, he’s doing business. So he’s thinking about Uganda.

Hmmm.

[coughs].

So for you, where, when you think of home, which you know, which place do you think of? Do you think of, of er…

I don’t think of Uganda.

You don’t think of Uganda?

I do think of it.

Oh you do think of Uganda?

I think of it, because, I built up my business from there. I learned my business from there. Er, I got married there. My four children are born there. So Uganda is, was my home, and er, if um, if I had choice I would have gone back. But I had no choice.

And what was it like the first time you went back?

First time when? After?

Have you been back to Uganda, yeah?

Yeah, I’ve been back er, when Obote came back to power, I went back. I was the first Asian to go back, first Asian.

Really?

Yeah. Because um, I was very close to er, xxxx xxxx Obote.

How, how did you know him?

I was xxxx working department [music]. Xxxx.

What does EPC stand for?

[music continues] UPC, Uganda People Congress.

Ok.

Yeah [coughs], xxxx wife to.

Yeah.

[coughs] Um, I went back in nineteen eighty two (1982) when Idi Amin, er, Obote came back to power. I and one of my friend we were first Indian to land, before even he came, he was flying from Zambia, and er, I was asked by high commissioner here to go there. So I, I flew from here, and I was there, that time condition was very bad. Oh my God! Hotel rooms are rubbish. We used to eat er, just, er, a bowl of potatoes, only, we, for a few weeks. There was no greens available, nothing available. Well, Idi Amin was thrown out, situation was really bad.

Hmmm. And what happened to the businesses that, the Asians left there xxxx….

All the businesses there broke, how do you say, they were taken over by local Africans, but they are located to, to, Idi Amin, through the military, allocated businesses to all the relations and families.

Of his, his family?

Offer, this your business, this your business, this your property, that your property. In my house, which I built and never lived, there were eight family living there when I went back in eighty two (1982). In six bedroom home, in a nice, small part. There were eight family were living in the whole, whole thing.

This is in central Kampala?

Yeah. Yeah.

What were you thinking then? [laughs]

No I went there, saw they were living there. Each room there, they were cooking and eating, and children were in my ground. Out of eight family, I think there were about thirty children were in the ground playing. And er, I told them it was my house, so they all came out and says, children were turning to their parent, the Wasungo has come, Wasungo is European. Even Afri-, young children they didn’t knew what is the difference of Indian and European. They all call Wasungo, xxxx is, foreigner.

How do you say it?

Wasungo.

Wasungo?

It means foreigner.

Ok.

So they, children they started the, look the foreigner has come. So when the chil-, elder people came out, I told them this is my property. They say, thank you, come in. [laughs]. They were very xxxx, come in peace, they offered me a tea and everything. When I told them, this property I built and never lived, and they say we are sorry, but we were given this room to use, and we’re using it. If you want, we’ll go out. I said, no, no, no, you stay. When xxxx.

[lady - yes]

Ok. Xxxx

[lady - yeah]

When you come back I may not be here for a little while.

[lady - xxxx xxxx]

Xxxx xxxx ok, you’re car easier xxxx.

[lady- yeah, ok, ok, bye!]

Bye bye, nice to meet you, take care!

Xxxx xxxx take your car.

[lady - ok yeah].

So, then I saw them, and I say no, and I never reclaim my property. I never reclaim. Because when I saw those children, and family live in each room. Cooking, living, sleeping, being everything. I said, how can I take the property back. [door slams] I, I never claim my business back, I never claim anything.

Nothing?

No.

Was, do you know…

It was the right thing, I think. Who were xxxx have been located. They have xxxx, they have taken good care for twenty, thirty years. How can I take it back. That was me, that was my thinking, many people took it back. I didn’t. My battery factory was run by a very, prominent Uganda, Ugandan African guy, who, who was small partner in my company. And he managed it, and he, he grew it up from there, he became the richest Ugandan African in Kampala. He was my two and a half percent partner. He built up Empire from there. What I laid, he got it.

Did you meet him, when you back to Kampala?

I met him, he still come to my house in Xxxx we used to eat together. Um, James Marona, he was the, very prominent Uganda, er Ugandan er, local borned African. Very clever boy, young boy, uneducated, much like me. He hardly had any, primary school education, as much as me I think probably, if not more than me. Something there, we both had a primary education. And he, he became two and a half percent partner of me. And he took my business away, I, in fair I left it to him, you run it. And he made it. How can I ask him to give me back.

Yeah.

He offer me some money, I said no, I don’t need money. [pause]

So you left, left the business…?

He offer me a million xxxx that time, million xxxx that time was about…even a thousand pound, about…fifty thousand dollar. I say no, I don’t need that. You keep it, keep for your family, you grow from there. You are growing. You enjoy it. And I never went back. Since that day I haven’t been.

So you’ve only be to Uganda back er, back to Uganda once?

Xxxx. Lot of people there are asking me to go back, a lot of Ugandan friends are asking me to come back, but I don’t want to go. Because I, if I go I leave everything, I won’t come back.

[laughs]

I love Africa. So if I go, I leave. I won’t, I xxxx I won’t come out.

Hmmm. Can you see yourself going back any time soon?

We had planned to go, to be this month, again it’s, I cancelled it.

Yeah.

I had planned to go this month, because one of our friend, has built a big house, and he is having a um, house warming party. In Kampala. And he wanted me and my wife to go, so we thought we’d go to Mombassa for a few days, and then go to Uganda for a few days. We are booked for nineteenth of April, and I cancelled it.

Why did you cancel it?

I cancelled it because er [music], um, one thing because, first, my eye problem. [music continues] I have to take this.

No, no problem, take it, it’s fine.

Xxxx xxxx. Xxxx. [Goes to answer phone - talks on phone for 25 seconds, then tape paused].

Carry on recording, is that ok? So you were saying the, the high commission was full of people queuing up to get Visas?

Yeah, every day, it was a big queue. Huge queue. And, gov-, British government had put special people there. I, I think they flew from London, some of the people, came there to help. And um, they were very, very considerate. In, very considerate, they gave a lot of people, who had Uganda passport, eru, they gave them back Brit, British passport, everything. British government was, very helpful. Very helpful. One thing is xxxx. Only my, my reservation about the whole thing is that um, we have lost, and we have gained. And we are not going to lose, what we are going to lose is our culture, and our children. Oh, I give you a funny example. I was sitting with my Grandchildren yester-, er, three days ago on Sunday, I think. Yeah Sunday, Sunday afternoon. And , they don’t know some of the name of the vegetables. They know only, everything what they seen here, because that, xxxx born here. They don’t know our culture, they don’t know, even we try to tell them, they can’t because they are learning in English in the school.

Hmmm.

And think what we are going to lose, the identity of um…our religion, our community. It will be big loss, we’ll gain yes, education for young children, or our first generation. My children are educated. My grand daughter is xxxx, from there on I don’t know. I don’t know. It’ll be like um…mystery community.

Hmmm. When, when er, when you in, in Uganda, what was the sense of identity there amongst the Asians?

Very close community.

Yeah.

In, we used to leave, there was no, everybody was living their own way, like Christians have their own society, Hindus have their own, Muslims have their own, they all different, very happily, and very amicably.

Were there Asians that kind of separated within their own groups, or were they all kind of mixed together?

Mixed together. Mixed.

And they were all respectful to one another or…?

Even, even um, um, better. Affluent Africans society, Ugandan society, Indians were mixing a lot. But not in business much. They grew the business together, yes, but there was no big partnership or nothing like that.

Socially they would have, or…?

Socially, very little. Very little. I tell you [laughs], you’ll laugh probably, the, there was a minister called, William Claimer. He was minister of commerce. Very close friend of mine, he became close to me. He was hardly about, five, seven years senior to me, maybe more, little more. I used to go to his home, quite often. And, when his first daughter was born, second daughter maybe, he asked me to become the Godfather. And my community, they were laughing at me, they, you are stupid, they say. He has asked me, what, what am I losing, I’m not losing anything. And he, his daughter used to come to our house in London, until she was married and settled back in Uganda. So, very few people used to mix socially. Even they didn’t mix, to be honest with you, they were also not for mixing. So it was not one sided, it was both sided. You had to make it.

Hmmm.

One has to make it, you can’t just um, ‘cause there’s no, what do they call it. Such a warmth. Business they used to do yes, because everybody want to do business together. I don’t know, I don’t know how to put it to you, but...yeah...oh xxxx xxxx, Indian community wasn’t xxxx, generally in Africa was very narrow, but since Idi did this, I think whole thing has changed. The xxxx is problem. People think now it large.

Hmm, the Asians, the Asian community?

Asia yeah.Xxxx In Nairobi you can see, very healthy partition between er, Kenyan and Asians. This was not there before. So I give little credit to Idi Amin that he has changed the face of Africa. East Africa at least.

Hmmm. And when you were talking before about the Asian communities, how they were very tight knit, do you remember what celebrating religious festivals was liek in Kampala?

Oh my God. You can see Diwali or er, Holi and Festval of Light. It was a big celebration. Which is now happening in London. In Southall, particularly. Similar to Southall. It took us year, forty years to do it. Over there we used to do it because I only moved in nineteen fifty four (1954), so I only know from there.

Yeah.

Big celebrations. Even now in Uganda, the Indian community is very well settled again. And prospering.

But even when you was there in the nineteen fifties (1950s) and sixties (1960s), all the Asian groups were, were celebrating their religious...

Yeah.

Festivals together?

Yeah everybody used to celebrate religion, and invite eachother, yes. Very much. But local people unfortunately, there was no, great er, um, rapport between er, Ugandan and Asian business community. It worked xxxx, we used to work together, say my office, we had er, a few Indian, couple of European, employed from England. And I had many Afri-, local Ugandan employed. From Kenya and Uganda. And they were all mixing.

Hmmm.

In office they would. But outside, no. In office they would sit together, have a beer together, have a lunch together. But, family wise, they were not connected much, er, funny. It was really very narrow xxxx.

And you said some, some in Southall you see the same tradition that they keep some of them in Uganda, is being done in London.

It’s happening here now.

Yeah, did, did that happen um, straight away, in the beginning when, when you were part of the resettlement board, you obviously saw...

No.

The other Asian communities...

No, no, no.

Setting up slowly.

No it was not then. Now, again is happening here. And I think um, that may be a remedying factor.

Hmmm.

But England is no more England now, isn’t it. England has become now, international.

[laughs].

Isn’t it right or wrong?

Yeah. International.

The way, who do you call English men here now? I mean if you, you can see...

[laughs]

They only in the city of London, in a bank.

[laughs]

Banking area.

Yeah, you’re lucky to find them there.

Yeah, xxxx find them here.

If they’re not European.

Hmmm. They all running it! [laughs].

[laughs]

Like it or not, England has become very like America. It’s becoming like America now. Course that means, there be no culture here. No xxxx, no xxxx civilise. And now, xxxx xxxx how long I will be I don’t know, but er, I see er, I see a lot of problems.

In the community?

Yeah. No doubt.

What kind of problems?

We’re lose identity, there be no identity, there be no community like, Patel or, these or there, at the moment we are so many thing now, it will become one. And, gradually we start losing identity. Our children will be brought up, not know. My grandfather, my grandson doesn’t know my father’s name.

Really?

Yeah. He don’t want to know.

He doesn’t want to know, or he doesn’t know, do you think?

I think they don’t care.They, from the, xxxx they have not known this. The school curriculum is so badly er, they are, they are teaching them only to be selfish.

Hmmm.

You study here?

Yeah.

So you know what I am telling you.

[laughs]. Yeah, this is er...

They say I love you, I love you, but that doesn’t mean anything.

Hmm. They don’t know about their own identity you mean...

Yeah, yeah.

Their family, their history.

And, they don’t, their own interest.

Hmmm.

I was telling one, my granddaughter, my gran, my granddaughter will be lawyer this year, she’ll be qualified lawyer next year. I was telling her, sit down with me, two hours a week, two hours a month even, and I tell you the whwole story of, where I come from, ‘cause I’m the only one, I have no brother, no sister. No uncle. Only my four children and my family, that’s my family. Whole family.

Ok, I’ll have a look and you can tell me who they are...

Yeah, I’ll show you. All my family. Now, I tell them, I tell you so at least you know who we are. She, they don’t want to know it. They never came back to me. They come to see me everytime, but, they never raise again. I raised it, I told them if they take an interest, I’ll give them history. But they didn’t have interest. Now I don’t blame them for that, because they have not learned this. They, they’ve not learned this.

When you were raising your children, you, you and your wife, what kind of things did you do whilst you were raising them to keep that er, identity alive?And the values that you were raised with?Or even the story of, you know...

You see when we came here, we came virtually, luckily I had resources, many people didn’t. But, to re-establish myself, I had to work very hard. I used to go to my office four o clock in the morning every day, in London, central London. Four o clock I used to be in the office. For good, six, seven years.

When you, the business you had here was that a chemical business as well?

No, here I started a very different business. Because chemical business I had a lot of um, support from big manufacturein Europe. But when I came here, they were all held their own office here.

Hmmm.

So they didn’t need my service. So they didn’t give me an agency of xxxx. So I enter in to business of er, er, denim wear. Jeans.

Ok.

Jean is a big business here, I saw a light there. And I had a business, I opened an office in Great Portland Street, with some partners. And er, I used to go to office early morning, four o clock. I used to leave my home by three thirty. I used to go early becuae to see my work, and then, after nine thirty, ten o clock, to go out to sell. And meet people. Salesman. When I do business, do the accounts, and come home every night, eight, nine o clock.

So you were working kind of, sixteen hours...

Six, at minimum.

Yeah.

At minimum I used to put in sixteen hours. And also on Sunday, xxxx xxxx. Saturday sixteen hours. Sixteen, seventeen hours. And sometime, travel, three country in one day, like go from here, got o Brussel. Brussel, do the work, fly to Rotterdam, or take a train to Rotterdam. Rotterdam, at night got to Hamburg and stay in Hamburg. And come back next day. To do business, to sell the jeans.

What was driving you, what was keeping you xxxx....?

Because I need to try, I need to...give you typical example, when I land in Uganda, I had no money. I made my money there. I used to travel economy class, then gradually business class, and then first class. From first class, I became again, economy class. So I wanted again to rebuild my empire. Rebuild and see, make sure the children got good education. Private education. And then go, brought up my son, brought up my daughter. My, three of my children, and all my grandchildren, have studied in private school. I haven’t send them to any public government school. Why, I tell you. Because I have never paid a tax here before, so I take, why should I take advantage of free service.

Hmmm.

I have taken social security, never. My mother died at the age of eighty eight, I never took her pension. Never. No. Only I take now, my pension, little bit pension because I worked here, I paid my taxes, so I take.

I found that when I’ve been interviewing other, other interviewees, they say they never liked to take...

No.

Anything.

Even in the, I never took a free TV licence when my mother need, my mother was over seventy five, never. Because where you have not paid tax in the country, how can you get, try to take money out xxxx.

Hmmm.

Out of security. Social security. That was the Uganda culture, that was the east, Uganda and Asian culture. Never take for nothing. Always give and take. That was the Indian culture in Uganda, that is what we are losing here now. That is my, my biggest regret in my life. Personally for me.

Hmmm.

I don’t know about others. Others are all, maybe, mainly are they, money, making money, money, money, money.

And your, your children, and, are they very much familiar with your, with their history?

Hmm.

Your children?

Hmmm.

You, your er...

My two sons and my daughter in law, yeah.

Yeah. And well you were saying, your gran, your granddaughter wasn’t very enthusiastic to learn about, did you tell your children when they were growing up, all the time er, instilling in them the same values...?

I had a very little time to tell these, but they know, they know because from my life, and my mother. You know, I used to, used to tell them all. Xxxx sixteen hour work...

You was working a lot, yeah.

I started because we had office in Nigeria, office in er, um, Dubai. So I used to travel a lot.

So do you think that cul-, that culture that you were talking about that’s been lost, has been lost from the second generation?

Xxxx, slowly slowly lost, and I think third generation, really have no culture left, no culture at all. My, my, my first generation no, second generation no half the way, and there, next generation they will be zero. They will know nothing. They be lost xxxx.

And, and this is because er, being brought up in somewhere diverse like Britain?

Yeah. And I don’t blame, anybody. I don’t blame them, er, the country or I don’t blame my children for this, or grandchildren for that. But that’s the way. So, what you leave behind, you leave behind.

Hmmm. In xxxx, a funny story of one of your time in Uganda?

Hmmm, funny story, you want to know?

Hmmm.

Well, ok. When I was walking, I got married, and my first child was being born. My wife was taken to hospital...and um, I had no money to pay. I was short of money, I give a funny example.

[laughs].

Clearly you laugh.

Is this before you, before you had your empire?

Before I had that, this very first, in nineteen fifty six, fifty seven (1956, 1957). And er, they was one European gynaecologist, who was, who delivered my first son. I told him, I said look, I don’t have money, what can I do? I can’t pay to hospital bill, I can’t pay your bill. He said, your xxx, my bill you can pay anytime, but hospital I can’t help you. I said fine, so I decided how to do it. I went to the hospital, I, I took my baby in my hand, and xxxx xxxx. That nobody saw it, and my wife also walked out. Without paying bill. And we went home, and then I went back to hospital, and I told them, I said look, I’m sorry. But I have done this.

[laughs].

But I will pay you when I earn. And I get my salary, I, I’ll pay by installment. And I paid. But that was the funniest part, I had to suffer in to that. I was, in that level, from that level, I built up.

So you made sure you never took anything for free?

My father never left any me, anything to me. Nobody has given me er, er, one single time in my life. I’ve never taken for anything. I’ve given to people, I’ve never taken.

What, does that, does that value exist now, not, not with this generation, but even amongst your peers?

Mmmm...my...

In what way has it changed, living in Britain for you?

No, most of the Indian family, have, they have it behind them, they xxxx.

Hmmm.

My father died in Karachi in nine, when I was nineteen days old, nineteen, er, thirteen months of age. I moved to India as a refugee. We cam to Uganda, I came penniless. And I made my own money, my own way. So I built my family. But many people, them not. Xxxx xxxx, they did that.

Hmmm.

I don’t know how people mess it up, but I did this [claps].

And now it’s been, I think it’s forty one years now, since the expulsion, nineteen...

How many years?

Forty one, this year?

Yeah, forty one, forty years.

How do you think it should be remembered?

By whom?

By, um, well, by the, the, by yourself, by the Ugandan Asian community, you know? The experience of Ugandan Asians.

Uganda Asian? Well, only one way, what we’re done here is, we have contributed, er, hard work. Even, Royal Family has acknowledged, that this community, coming from east Africa, Uganda mainly, have given us some different reason. Looking after parents, I looked after my mother. What will happen to me, I don’t know. What’ll happen to my son I don’t know. But I did look after my mother, until she died on the last day. Er, so we, we, do that. We don’t take undue advantage of any benefits, they still Uganda Asians contribution. And hard work as well. I don’t know what else, you can think. If somebody may have told you, I don’t know.

No, that’s pretty much what xxxx xxxx contribution...

Hard work mainly. We have contribute, and...if I’m not wrong, today the, quite a large percentage of er, revenue, taxes paid by immigration. I, I hear it’s seven percent, I like to xxxx some of our institution was talking about it, I’m not sure. You can look it up, if you want.

Oh it sounds, um, it sounds believable! [laughs].

Lot of, lot of Ugandan Asian help built up the empire here again, from nothing.

Hmmm.

From nothing. I know a family, who was a very small, small, shop keeper, in Uganda. Er, can’t even think of name for them.They are the biggest wine merchant, the wine and liquor merchant in England. In England, in second biggest in the world. They are based in Xxxx. If you see their xxxx, there’s xxxx of it. And they had a small shop, in Jinja. Not even in Kampala. Small shop. And the four children now xxxx house, each are worth fifteen million dollar, xxx pound. They drive car like, ten car in the basement. Other family er, the father was, how do you say it, he was going round with er, snacks and sell the snacks shop to shop and house to house. And today, they are the richest builder Indian family in London. Er, xxxx, have you heard of Xxxx.

No.

You should interview them.

Yeah.

They had no money to pay for education of children, the father. The children are very fortunate here. They are, they are one of the billionaire family, Ugandan billionaire family, yeah. They live in a, er, palace here in in, Denham.

What I find really interesting is, when you were telling me yeah, you used to work eighteen hours a day, you used to get to your office for four o clock in the morning...

Hmm.

With the, the majority of the Asian, Ugandan Asians that have worked very hard to achieve this really high, high level of success...

They, most of them, yes.

Yeah. What, what is like the main components of that...?

The main thing is er, we believe in serving, we don’t waste money, we don’t overspend. Er, we spend within limitation. And um, hard work. So when you work twice of everybody else.

Hmm.

You can make it. It’s simple, theory. Even I tell my grandchildren, even now, that when you are studying at college, at school, get up in the morning at four o clock, and start doing your study, you will be ahead of anybody else.

Because what’s, the most, the thing that comes out the most of the Ugandan Asian project er, stories, is that this is seen as a role model, for refugees to...

Yeah.

To work hard and to you know, there’s er, there xxxx xxxx....

This, this is what Jewish community when they came here...but unfortunately, now we’re coming here, are going to social security and claiming money. All the new people, Polish and this, Romanian, Albanian and who ever. Er, somebody is anybody who is coming, they just coming here, for what? NHS? Social security? And housing? You get shelter, you get money to xxxx, why they don’t come? We, in Uganda Asians, we never took any advantage, never. No. Not the one family, I don’t remember one family claiming any money coming here.

Hmmm.

They always so proud to work. My sister, my cousins sister, my, my mothers brothers daughter, they were very wealthy in Uganda, she used to work in Dunlop factory on a factory floor. And today, she died in cancer, her two sons are multi-millionaire. So they lost in Uganda, she again worked here in a, seeing her husband, the both used to work in Dunlop factory in Burnley, every morning they used to work, six o clock, and come back at, they used to some time, two shift. [music plays]. My cousins sister.

No problem. [music continues].

[music plays again] Hello? [Leaves room talks on phone for 1min45 seconds, then returns]. My wife is late, so they are phoning me xxxx [laughs].

Oh! [laughs].

[laughs] You want to use bathroom or anything?

No I’m ok...

Feel free, if you want more drink or anything?

No, I’m fine thank you!

Ok.

Thank you.

Tell me, what else do you want to know?

Hmmm, so do you, you feel more Ugandan than you feel British?

Um...how can I say to you? [silence] I am British citizen, so I can’t say I’m not British, but, at heart yes, I am...even an Indian.

Hmmm. And your children?How do you think they see themselves?

Mmm...one of my son will say, yes, he is Indian from Uganda. Other one will say I am, I am not interested!

[laughs].

And I don’t know what two daughters. Of course they want you to see their, their, um, their um, birth place. So we can, when did we go? Yeah we went for a day. In ninteen...

Eighty two (1982)?

No, in eighty two (1982) I went for a business.

Ok.

But there after, I was in Nairobi, so I took them by er, small plane for five, four, five hours, it was just to, show them the birthplace, it was in nineteen eighty, eighty five (1985). Yeah, eighty five (1985). I took all my four children, to Kampala, just to see, where they were born.

Hmmm. Who, who’s er, request was that? Did you want to show them?

It was their, they want to see, they want to see where they are born. And I just took them, to see there, this is Kampala. There after they will not talk about it.

Really?

No. Because...my youngest daughter once she came here, she was one and a half year old.

Hmm.

She was in, baby cot.

Yeah.

Virtually. Nineteen seventy (1970) they came here. So, they been to Kenya three or four times thereafter.

Do, do you still have family living in Kenya?

Yeah my, my daughter in law comes from Kenya. My eldest son, married a girl in Kenya. So, we go there, when occasions, are there. So I was xxx now, going to go now, and go to Mombassa with them. And then we go to Kampala. But um, I didn’t, I really didn’t go because I though I won’t be er, happy to see...you, you want go, you want to remember the happy memories.

Hmmm.

You don’t want to, just go there and forget it at once. That’s why I’m not going to be honest with you.Sometime I feel that I wish I had gone back...but then, I could have lost xxxx family.

Hmmm.

My whole family, my, my mother’s side family is here. I’ve been born in my mothers side family, because my father died, so they took me. They looked after me and my mother. My mothers side family. So somebody connected to me, my mothers side family, and my mothers side family is very large, and they are all here.

All of them?

Yeah. We meet every week, all cousins we meet every week. Ever week. Xxxx In every way xxxx from. That is our generation.

You’re very close?

But our children, they meet once in a three month.

[laughs].

Maybe, maybe. They used to meet, usually once a month, once a week, once a month. Gradually one in two, three months, and now maybe twice a year. Because they are married, they have their own life connections, and this connections and so on.

Yeah.

It’s the same, but what is happening?

Do you think, do you think that’s the biggest loss of the...?

Yeah. Xxxx is going, definitely, there is no question about it.

What about the ethic of hard work?

Hmm?

The ethic of working hard...?

Xxxx.

Business.

Is going also, for next generation, they don’t, they are more er, they talk about more holidays, more fun. Why would you work? [1:10:19.6]

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Vasant Karia

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: 17/04/2013

Language: English

Venue:

Name of interviewer: Lwam Tesfay

Length of interview:

Transcribed by: Claire Days

Archive Ref: 2013_esch_UgAs_21

2013_esch_UgAs_21b

2013_esch_UgAs_21b

You’re to, you’re to really ask somebody else, more detail about this. But, as I remember there was one Jewish company. Very successful Jewish company. Who wish to build a road, and err, do XXX building. XXXX was very proud of that particular Jewish company. There were quite a few people, and they were asked to leave. The company was taken over by government and then they were asked to leave. Before Indian were asked to leave, because they

What time was this roughly then?

The company name, I’ve forgotten this. It was in nineteen seventy one I think, he threw them out, he asked them to leave

Just, just before the Indians left?

Year before the Indian people were asked to leave.

Hmm

That time we all felt that our turn will come, but then we thought no, no, no, never. That was a small company with few Indians. Small community, not big community. There we are XXXX

What were the Jewish community like in Uganda?

Them not very. One synagogue, and very few community.

So it was quite a small one?

There were 3, or 400 people I think. I believe. I’m not very sure.

Yeah

I never took much interest in it. I remember, something happened in the Jewish community. This Jewish company, particularly XXXX company, was asked to leave immediately, within twenty four hours. Because he was controlling the total roadwork, officer, this company from the XXXX… And Jewish were trying to take entry in East Africa at that time. But Israeli, from Israel. So they were thrown out first, then Indian turn came. You’d better ask somebody else this question. Praful maybe knowing it.

Hmm

I’m, I’m not very a hundred per-cent about it. But I remember the Jews were thrown out first. That was not done as big a way as the Asian community

Of course, yeah

Asian, we were seventy thousand, and they were only three hundred, or four hundred. And they were quietly kicked out. Not much XXXX and they didn’t speak about it much. But I remember the managing director of the Jewish company was a XXXX in my rotary club, and one Friday disappeared, so we came to know that he was asked to leave.

What were you thinking at that point, when you heard that he, he was asked to leave?

I mean, I mean it though. Definitely he was asked to leave. And then it came out that every Jews were leaving because of him. They were XXXX asked to go.

Because they were so successful?

They were so successful in road building, yeah. Road building and transport. Thereafter, if you remember, if you know history of Uganda. Jewish people had to… Israeli people had to go by plane and release some Jewish people from there. Do you know that? I don’t remember which year, but Amin had captured some Jewish people, put in prison, in a very bad prison. And Israeli commandos went by Israeli plane, landed in the prison, released them, and took them back. That, that happened. And successfully. Uganda army, by that time the Ugandan army could reach XXXX by plane

Do you remember when you heard about that?

We heard immediately. We know that… we followed day to day, every day routinely on the…. If it happened in…. they landed at 2 o clock night, and they, they, they left just in one, by 4 O’clock they took off. All prisoners, they took all prisoners. Not a single Israeli was left in XXXX. That happened in nine… If you read, err… Do you know XXXX?

No

Ask Praful to get you a book. Write down…

Yeah

Ask him to get you a book of the… Mr XXXXX has written a book about Uganda. Just recently, about three or four years ago. Which is mainly connected to XXXX group, but there are references about all this in the book.

Okay

Book XXXX… I tell you, what is the book called? I’ll ask my son, I think he’ll know. My copy, I think I’ve given him.

I can look it up.

It’s available from Amazon. You can buy from there.

No problem. I can look it up and see.

My son has gone to Istanbul, but ask Praful give a name of book Mr. XXXX has written about the XXXX empire, in which you’ll find all these references

[PHONE BEEPS]

My son, he’s gone to Istanbul today, for the day, I forgot.

Just for the day?

He left this morning at Seven O’clock, and he’s coming back in the evening. My XXXX. That way we are connected. He will tell me what he is doing, where he is going.

Yeah

That way we are close. But this book, you must read it.

Oh, I will do

It will give you lot about Uganda

I’ll look it up, thank you.

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Vasant Karia

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: 17/04/2013

Language: English

Venue:

Name of interviewer: Lwam Tesfay

Length of interview: 6 mins

Transcribed by: Steve Rolling

Archive Ref: 2013_esch_UgAs_21b

2013_esch_UgAs_21c

2013_esch_UgAs_21c

African used to say European Mzungu, it means white man. Indian XXXX, it means brown man. When I went in eighty two, same children of Uganda, which was born after XXXX, they started calling me Mzungu because I come from XXXX.

Hmm. Just in that ten year period

Ten year period, only. The new… they’re all children under five, ten years playing in the ground, in the grass. They don’t know anything. ‘Mama, mama, Mzungu, Mzungu, mama, mama, Mzungu over here… But then, any foreigners Mzungu. In earlier time, African was known as African, Indian was XXXX… The African men called me XXXX ‘XXXX’

Laughs

They were joking, in a friendly way. But now, all foreigners are Mzungu….

Yeah, because I think maybe when they were there, there was no other separation

Exactly

Do a lot of your other peers still give back to Uganda?

Hmm?

A lot of your friends… they still invest… or you know, still, still support Uganda, like you were saying…

Charity we support, yes, definitely. I think all the Uganda people do support charity.

Yeah

Definitely. My generation. I don’t know even about my children’s generation. My son will give probably. If he makes from Uganda, he’ll give to Uganda.

Okay

I owe Uganda. I, I, I… my generation

You feel like you owe Uganda something?

Of course. My children are born there. Of course. My children are born there. I live there my young life, and I made my first money there. Like it or not, eh? So that much is definitely there. Anything comes out… something happens in Uganda, I want to hear first. Not India.

Laughs

No… But I do a lot of charity work in India too. We build temple in India, we built two temple in India.

So after you work hard, and you built yourself up, you go back and you help people?

You have to. XXXX. That’s what life is, isn’t it?

Yeah

So, do you want to XXXX something XXXX?

No, I’m okay.

Sure.

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Vasant Karia

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: 17/04/2013

Language: English

Venue:

Name of interviewer: Lwam Tesfay

Length of interview: 3 mins

Transcribed by: Steve Rolling

Archive Ref: 2013_esch_UgAs_21c

So, this is Lwam Tesfay interviewing XXXX on the 26^th of April 2013. Can I just get you to start off by spelling your full name for me...

So, this is Lwam Tesfay interviewing XXXX on the 26^th of April 2013. Can I just get you to start off by spelling your full name for me...

Erm... Narendra Kotecha known as Janu Kotecha as a nickname, erm... you want a spelling?

Yes, please.

Narendra; N-A-R-E-N-D-R-A Kateacher; family name K-O-T-E-C-H-A. Nickname; Janu, J-A-N-U.

Ok.

I’m born on 30 January 1949 in a town called porbandar, P-O-R-B-A-N-D-A-R, in India where Mahatma Ghandi was born, so I’m proud to be from a town of a great man in our life. In 1950 I went to Uganda with my parents, as a child, from 1950 to 1959 er... I lived my childhood with my parents in Uganda and did my nursery in Uganda, a town called Jinja and Mbale. Jinja was our headquarters for a grandfather’s business and Mbale was a part of our manufacturing industry area. STOP.

[TAPED STOPPED]

I’ll just carry on from now....

So, obviously I XXXX it later wait from ’49 to ’59 after my birth from India my parents, I went with my parents to Uganda I have done my nursery in Uganda and we went to Uganda in 1950 [TELEPHONE RINGS] because er... my grandfather migrated to Uganda in around 1895 approximately er... to support the British Empire to build a railway line and within a span of few years he join a work, he started working for a British company called East African British cotton industry, which went erm... bankrupt in around 1933 and my er... grandfather was erm... chief manager person who was looking after the buying and selling of the raw cotton in Uganda. And er... he was given an opportunity by a bank in 1935 to take over the entire industry, which went bankrupt in 1933/35 by British er... erm... cotton... East African British cotton industry. Er... from 1935 my grandfather started rolling a nice neat business and industries and we were declared as a cotton empire and pioneer in Uganda and East Africa erm... obviously my grandfather recruited a lot of family members from India erm... his brothers, his nephews, his cousins, his brother-in-laws, uncles many people and all these er.. member of the family and extended member of the family slowly and regularly established in Uganda and up to 1972. Erm... from 1959, I go back to ’59 now, er... because in my father’s family we lost lot of lives in Uganda, and this is between 1935-1959 all the key personals from family died erm....[INTERRUPTED 0:04:55.5 – 0:06:32:0] So, obviously between 1935 and 1959 we lost lot of family members who were the key personals to run our grandfather’s cotton industry and erm... it was a very healthy industry, it really built up our future we made a fortune in that and er... around er... ’59 my father decided to take his personal family to India so that he can concentrate with other member of the families in the business and in the industry of cotton side. It er... my elder brother Shiraz and second elder brother Asho were sent to UK in 1959, for their further education and erm... my elder brother Shiraz written back to Africa and he supported my father in the business and... my father hand over the business to my elder brother in around 1960/61. He was a bachelor and he wanted to get on with the life and he wanted to get marry so it was my father’s desire to bring him to India, invited him to India, and he my father helped him to source a partner and eventually my elder brother Shiraz got married in 1963, but between ’61 and ’63 my father went back to Africa from India to do the one more year season of cotton and business and then passed entire responsibility to my brother and my younger uncle it just happened that my father came back, was coming back from Uganda by sea route to India and that was the journey for a most exiting life coming into his own personal life of my father because my elder brother shiraz, the first child, of my father and my elder sister Jesta erm... they were two getting married in 1963 and my father’s joy was extremely high. Er... but it never happened; when my father landed er... in India from his journey to Africa by sea he had a heart attack in Bombay and he did not listen to doctor and he took the train from Bombay to Bombandar and half way on the 1^st of April 1963 he had another big heart attack and he lost his life and we lost our dear father. Since then my brother took the responsilibility of the family and the business and between ’59 to ’67 I was personally based in India with my mother and erm... all my younger brother, sisters were living with my mother, I was studying in a boarding school in Raj court, which was known as a capital of Safrastre of Gujurat, I was fortunate enough to study in a very nice er.. recognise institution known as Raj Kuma college in Raj Court and I finished my senior high, senior school there and in ’67 my brother requested that my mother to come back to Africa so that we can all live together, we went back to Africa in Uganda in 1967 as a family I... In 1967, my brother was disintergrating the business from our family group and make a hub only for our family as a brother it happened in 1967 and then my older brother shiraz demanded to my second elder brother Asho and myself for a help to run the business and the show and I had to debate between the two life of the two future life for myself whether should I go for record of make lab or should I join the family business and I made up my mind to join the family business in 1967 and I join, and around in 1969 and we asked our second elder brother to migrate back to India and double up cotton industry there he went to India and my older brother, Shiraz and myself were looking after the Ugandan Industries we were doing very well we made a fortune but in 1969, unfortunate thing happened in our life in Uganda that, which outside power influence the democratic er.... was toppled er... and erm... Milton Abote was our president was overthrown by martial law er, which is er...er... by er... Idi Amin who was er... commander in er.. chief of army and in ’69 own world life started changing in Uganda. Many people the people who were living there for fifty, sixty, eighty years they everybody started getting scared and er... lot of erm... incidents happened, lot of people life were ruined, lot of lives were lost especially in Asian community and lot of people started becoming negative and they started leaving the country but we being as an indutrialisists and businessmen we saw the growth during the Idi Amin’s regime and up to 1972 erm... we had a good time in Idi Amin’s regime but obviously at the back of our mind we were all the time concerned about our livelihood and our life, which did occur in 1972 one day morning Idi Amin came on the platform and openly declared that any foreigners whether black white or brown skin must leave the country within 90 days and if they don’t obey this order then their lives will be on risk. And he will not take the responsibility so by this statement obviously people were scared and er... some people were XXXX and me personally I was a young business man so I didn’t then care about it, I didn’t took notice of it and it just happened that er... in 1972, around the month of February er... the erm... Army people, Idi Amin’s officers suddenly barge in to my office in Ubale and they just very rudely and roughly came and beat me and picked me up, put me in the car and they kidnapped me they took me to erm... they were taking me to Kampala, a capital city of Uganda and they accused me that I was trying to built er... a small unit of your people who can support me to topple Idi Amin’s government and er... I was shocked to hear all this thing, at aged twenty or twenty-one you don’t even think such thing but somebody must have played a culprit role because I was a healthy businessman, young businessman within our radius of industry.

Were you quite successfull or well known in tha... in your community?

Er... Sorry?

Were you quite successful in the community?

Yeah. I was very young, bright er... man er... in er... industry in my, my... our... I was very well known in our cotton industry and oil mill industry I was probably the youngest chap in the entire country to move into this industrial direction successfully and yes by no doubts er... erm... it’s with help of my brother and my family. I was very successful naturally competition was quite high and other industry people some of them were bit jealous, some of them were not doing good in the industry and erm... naturally in industry and commerce there is always a competition sometimes it’s healthy, sometimes it’s not healthy and people wants to feel negative against the successor. Never the less obviously I was kidnapped in February and unfortunately it just happened that while we were travelling in the military car from Umbale to Kampala, erm... my elder brother Shiraz was filling up the petrol in Ginger, which is a middle of Kampala and Umbale and these military people some how knew it who Shiraz was so they also kidnapped my elder brother, with me and er.. we were just driven down to er... Kampala and between Ginger and Kampala there is a forest called Marbira Forest the car stop and they asked us to get out of the car and they started beating us and we just hugged, hugged eachother we me and my brother and we said goodbye our life is coming to the end.. There is nobody here to rescue us and we will meet in Heaven fullstop. We give up our life we knew it that if you are kidnapped by military people you don’t come back alive and that’s what we accepted. But it just happened that they are.. they did not do much to us they took us to the prison which is know as the ‘Hell’ and the prison name is Makende a lot of people were kidnapped and taken there who never came back alive from the prison so once again the when the car entering into the prison again we both decided that look Janu we are coming to the end of our life and whatever it is we have to accept it and this is it fullstop. We were prepared for the death and er... it just happened that my brother-law had an influence with a gentlemen in er... army and they fought for us to take us out of the prison and he was successful and er... we were successfully taken away from the prison and so we went back to Umbale and then my elder brother advised me that ‘Janu in two three months time you go and take a rest in India with my mother and if i get a suitable partner i should get married , prepare yourself and then if everything is okay then come back.’ So I left Uganda before the exodus...

mmm...

Er... went to India I was searching for partner, life partner which didn’t happen then er... because I wanted to travel so from India I went to Germany to see er... Munich Olympic in er... September 1972. But when I reached to Frankfurt I saw this statement of Idi Amin on the television and I called my brother and my bother just ordered me to go to UK immediately leave everything and he wanted to send his family to UK as a refugees, so I came to UK I stayed in er... as a paying guest with one of my friends mother and in my pocket I had hardly about £280 pounds so I was waiting for my brother’s family to come to UK I.... fetched them from Stans... from Stanstead airport, and erm... I went to the home office because I was carrying an Indian citizen passport myself so I said ‘Look this is what the situation is and I cannot go back to Uganda I need your permission to stay here for at least 12 to 20 months because my brothers young family’s coming and they will be under my responsibility and er... in those days Prime Minister Edward Heath’s government was running the government one thing in my life I will say that Prime Minister, ex-Prime Minister Edward Heath became instant Godfather for entire foreigners and Asian community in Uganda. The hospitality he extended to all the refugees in UK it’s unbelieveable he just opened the doors for us, for all the Asians, he welcomed them, he looked after them, he gave them clothing, medicines, education, residence homes everything; and that is true a leader of British government we respect him and we still miss him, whatever we are today all thanks goes to Edward Heath ex-Pime Minister of UK. Yes Idi Amin was a nice gentlemen he was a good president but what happened in a time of ’69 to ’72 he truly probably with his uneducated mind or probably foreigners influence or foreign comments influence he just become a second Nazi and in his regime last period of exodus he really become a life butcher in the country he murdered and killed thousands and hundreds and thousands of people, young babies, young er... girls were literally raped and murdered. People assets and erm... what you call... wealth were snatched but it become a history in our life and me as a young man of twenty years, twenty-one years old I still remember the Uganda was that glorious country, one of the glorious country in this world we left our history behind we come back to UK and obviously I was a businessman I determine myself never to work for anybody, I wanted to do my own business with help of friends and bank I borrowed about £18,000 pounds in 1972 and I opened a corner shop in Shephards Bush and within a span of a year I got married erm... my wife Mayshuarie and with the support of my wife and the British government I started building up the business slowly and gradually by around 1982 I had about, portfolio of about eight or nine different retails unit I invited my rest of mem...members of the family from India and my wife was carrying her first child in ‘78/9 and then erm... my second child was born in 1982 we altogether started building life in UK and we had a very successful growth in our life in UK that did not permit us or think twice to go back to Uganda we did leave our fortune assets in Uganda. I went back to Uganda in 1982 to survey and see my left over assets and everything with my brother but we saw the state of [COUGHS] our properties and industry and we felt that the is a future in UK, so why do you want to come back to Uganda? Yes, we today believe there are quite a few ex-Ugandan still live in Uganda and they have built a successful business in commerce and industry and that’s life and we accept that and similarly I’ll happily say that we have also built our niche life in UK with the help of UK government and our family and friends and we are happy here I have two sons, eldest son is thirty-five years old, he’s got his family I’ve got one grandson, Almet is elder son his wife is Pullwee and his son name is Rehan they are based in Dubai. My second son got married last year Ravi and his wife is a nice young lady she’s a chartered accountant and young couples are also happily living their life. I’m very fortunate to have my mother with me till today she is 93 years old, and...

When did she come here?

My mother came in Uk in 1978, to deliver our first child and since then she has always lived with me and she has taken a vow that she will not go anywhere she will die in my own home – she is 93 and today I’m very happy to say that we are all brothers and sisters we have four brothers, three sisters with their individual family we decided to take our mother for a lifetime memory trip which is a cruise we are... we are going on the cruise on 11^th of May this er... next month for fifteen days with our mother and that will be a lifetime memory we don’t know how long my mother will live because she is aging obviously and sooner or later we will have to accept her absence and that’s life...

So, this is like a family trip with everybody?

Family trip. It’s a family... and that’s it.

Yeah. Just going back to Uganda a little bit can you remember when they made the... you said you were in Munich or Frankfurt when they made that announcement, what was the atmosphere like in Uganda around that time, in Feburary, March....?

Yes, erm... in 1972... Feb... Between January and September, obviously here in there because it was a military ruling government under the martial law erm... some of the military senior officers were taking advantage and abusing the power and the biggest scandal was kidnap the rich people for ransom and once they get the randsom either they knew... oh.... they knew they’ll pay or they’ll kill them.

mmm.

This is scarring part of that life which we never saw before at my age during that period I never seen such thing but I have seen life in 1972 when I was kidnapped and left in the erm.... Makende prison for 48 hours and in that prison it was 4X4 cage in which me and my brother were put in it was all four walls were open and you could literally see other prisioners black, white and Asians and we at night around between ten and one o’clock in the night you could literally see that black people were torchered on the floor by the butts of the rifle or guns or machine gun until this person dies and then they used to... floor officer used to hold the hands and legs and throwing the body on an open wall like a football and crush it and in the morning they used to pick up all that put it in a big drum boil the water and they were serving it as a soup to other prisoners; and that’s the life we have seen with our.... my own naked eyes... and it literally put us off that what is this going on why the humans are treated like that but it has really given us a lifetime lesson – how to treat human, how to be human and how to treat other humans that was my learning point in my life which has literally given me personally an opportunity in the UK to be associated with a lot of volunteer group I’m fortunate since last twenty-four years I’ve been serving my own community from bottom to top up to the top chair I’ve been there i’ve worked with other few societies in volunteer area I am also a volunteer persons in erm... many organisations in India which I do my silence job there. I personally value human no matter whether that human is disabled, poor, middle-class or rich to me human is human and that is most valuable thing in my life and today till I die whatever I can do for human I’m there for it physically, mentally, timingly and money-wise, whatever I can do I’m there. I value human life. Yes in Uganda when you see such thing at young age it puts you off from the life it puts you off to put your own life or extend to some other human life but I was not one of that I decided to give something back to human life. When I came in UK as I say it in 1972, I decided I don’t want to work for anybody I’ll work for my own self. I’m very proud to say that from ’72 to 1984 I built up a nice small business in retail sector with seven eight shops in between ’82 to ’92 we sold all the small units and we bought a very large unit in South Hampton and... which was we had thirty-three full-time white people staff and at that time I was feeling very comfortable that here is the period in my life which gives me experience how to be a boss again and in ’89 my friend from India who was erm... er... mega textile group from India offered me to do a textile business in UK which was the cotton was in my blood so I took the challenge in 1989 and by 1996 we become a er... erm... major supplier in UK cotton industry fo... er... raw material from India that is cotton yarn, cotton fabric and fortunetly again our XXXX believed to be the top in the market, so, I started learning things and I linked myself with a major group in UK called Marks and Spencers ny 1990...8 I was a very successful supplier to Marks and Spencers my trust, my confidence, my ability, my knowledge they accepted they gave me a lot of backup in er... 19... in 2000 I was the first person to take Marks and Spencers to India to buy a ready-made garment and we did it in 2000... April year 2000 and today I’m very proud to say that Marks and Spencers supports India wholeheartedly and that 30-40% of the garment is sourced from India, which is my pride.

Wow. I didn’t know that....

That is the biggest pride I am personally carrying today. Today I’m also happy to say that I have a grandson I promise my eldest son that when I become a grandfather I’ll take retirement no matter of my age and I’ve fulfilled my commitment to my son and I’m enjoying my life with and without my grandson today. That’s family.

Family is very important to you....

Yeah. Family is very important. Thank you

Can I just take you back to your first time when you arrived in UK. Can you describe that experience when you came off the plane?

When I came to UK I only had a few pairs of clothes I landed exactly on 14^th August 1972 3.43 in the afternoon, to Heathrow Airport and my... one of my friends came to pick me up at that time he didn’t have the car, so we walked up to the bus stop, we picked up the bus and we went to Hounslow Central and then I picked up my bag and we went to home by walking there he gave me a box room, there was a one single bed and say ‘This is your room, will cost you £8 pound a week, one meal at night, and one cup of tea in the morning. Two baths in a week and that’s it, you will have to be in the house before eight-thirty, after that we’ll not open the door, that was the kind of life I star

2013_esch_UgAs_23

2013_esch_UgAs_23

This is Luam XXXX interviewing Adil Dean on the twenty-ninth of April 2013. Can I just get you to start off by telling me your full name and your date of birth?

Right, my full name is Adil Dean and my, er, date of birth is the twenty second of April 1966.

Ok, where were you born?

I was born in Uganda.

Where abouts?

In Kampala.

Um, can you tell me a little about your family?

Ermmmm, yes I, er, er, let’s see, I was er, erm, my gran-, er, er, what shall I say. I was born there, my parents were divorced, divorced when I was six months old so…um, my, I, er, lived with my father’s side [mm-hm] of the family.

Yeah.

And, er, really all I remember in- basically is er, just a little bit about Uganda, not too much, [yeah] and where we used to live and all that. Ah, but we came here…where I was- came to England when I was six…[mm-hm] er, as a refugee with my grandmother.

And, what did your parents do?

Uh my dad, I think he worked in the er, erm fire extinguisher game. [Really] He was selling fire extinguishers to companies.

He had his own-he had his own business?

His own business there, yes, yes. Yeah.

And your mother?

Not too sure, she left when I was six months old.

Ok.

Yeah.

And was it- your dad Indian? Was that- your dad Asian?

Er, yes, yes, yeah. Asian, uhhh, my grandmother…um, she was half African and…uh, Turkish, and er, um, Indian. Yeah.

And what can you remember about Kampala?

Umm….

Did you go- did you go to school there?

I remember going to school there, yeah I went to school there. Erm…

I’ve seen a picture of you, erm, at your nan’s house, in your uniform.

Oh yeah.

I think, in your little cap.

Oh that was here [was that here?], that was in Woking, yeah.

Ok.

Yeah, yeah. That was-

There was one of you, you in all white.

It was in gr- All white! Oh that was a say- yeah, that was my grandmother, dressed me up. [Laughing] That was here yeah. That was when we probably just came here.

Ok.

Yeah…um.

Do you remember anything about your school in Uganda?

School, no really, no. It was very, very er, vivid memories erm, er…not really, no. Erm… I know where we lived, y’know I can visua- think, see it in my, er…

What does it look like?

[Sighs] Oh God, it was a house at the bottom of the hill and the steps going all the way up to the top of the road, it was quite a lot of steps…Uhhh. Yeah, I don’t remember too, too much.

But you lived with your nan?

I lived with my grandmother, yes.

And, did you- did you have her…other people living with her too? Was it just two of you?

Erm, my er- at that time I think it was my uncle Jimmy. I think my Dad was living there too. I think that was it really. [Phone rings] Oh sor-sorr…[it’s alright]. [Clicking sound, then phone half rings -Talks to someone on the phone for 13 seconds]. [Phone beeps] Sorry,[that’s okay] I’m gonna have to take a XXXX out to a lady [yeah that’s fine, no problem].

And do you remember um…it’s back on now [yeah]. Do you remember leaving Uganda?

No really, no, I don’t remember leaving there, I kinda remember coming to England that’s it.

Okay.

Yeah.

What do you remember about coming to England?

Ahhh, coming to England, and uh, being held in a, um, detention centre for six months. In I think it was Conbrooke by the airport, that’s where they had the detention centre.

Was this near Heathrow Airport?

Yes, near Heathrow Airport, yeah [okay]. This was back in I think ’72, yeah. When I think that maybe, [hissing sound] probably all other uh, Asian refugees was aswell.

Yeah. What was the detention centre like?

Uhhhmm, I don’t know, we just didn’t er– I think my gran and me just had the one room we shared that…and uh, just uh, just remembering all the, all the different people, just uh- I remember going to the canteen [mmm] that’s really all I remember, really, yeah.

Was it like a communal-being served communally, like a…like a soup kitchen but-

Yeah, kind of, yeah, you get your tray and go get your food and all that.

Yeah.

And, yeah.

And how long did you stay there?

I think it was six months, six months there…six months there, erm, then erm, at the time my, my aunt was living here, she was married, my er, grandmother’s daughter [mm-hmm] ah, near er, she lived in er, Hounslow. Um, so I think what happened there is- then after that they then er, put us…in Cranford [mm-hm]…my gran and me, to be close to my aunt. Erm, but they put us in a caravan which was in the back in the garden, back of someone’s house.

Okay.

But it didn’t have uh, I can’t remember but again it wasn’t a very pleasant time.

So who’s, who’s house or whose, who was living on that site?

Erm my gran, me and my grandma were living in the caravan, erm…er…obviously it was probably rent from the council, y’know [yeah], given to the council, whatever but, er, yeah, that was very unpleasant, it was just a horrible place really. The uh, heating y’know, it was one of those g- portable heaters you had [yeah], it was cold, damp, it was terrible cos y’know, coming from a hot country like that and then coming here…

Yeah.

Yeah so it wasn’t very good. Uhmmm lived there- I d- can’t remember how long we lived there- we lived there for a while, then we got um, and obviously we were trying to get some housing, better housing, then they took, then they sent us to…from there…they sent us to Woking.

Okay.

We spent some time in Woking there, maybe a year or two… Erm, and in Woking it was erm, a place called Constitutional House, it was with other refugees- I remember a Tibetan guy at that time [mm-hm], there were people from Tibet coming. So I remember Tibetan guy- I remember Polish family there, they were there. It was good though because er, I then got sent to a school, private school. That’s where you- what you saw my gran’s pictures, a great green hat [mmm] and all that…Um so that was maybe a year…then obviously what my grandma’s trying to do is say to them, y’know, can we try and be closer to her daughter [hissing sound], because we didn’t have anyone else here.

Mmm.

Ummm, so we stayed there for a little bit and then I think the next step, then they sent us to Battersea…

Okay.

Uhh, they sent us to Battersea and uh, um I remember going to Latchmia School in Battersea, and that might have been for a year or two…I still can’t remember the d- time and dates…

But you were around eight, nine…

Eight, nine [yeah], yeah eight! Seven, eight, seven, eight. Or cert- somewhere around that area. So that was maybe for a year and we’re still trying to get closer to my aunt. Ah, from Battersea…where did they send us? We lived in…Cranford, in the, in the caravan…then they se- uh, and then Woking…then Battersea, then from Battersea they sent us to Norwood Green.

Okay.

Ummm which was a nice two bedroom, uh flat in Norwood Green- so er, I finally had my own…room, [yeah] basically.

Ummm, so lived there for probably a year…um, then my dad eventually came because he was trying to get out of Uganda, he erm, was erm…he was trying to get out of Uganda and uh, every time he tried to get out they used to, y’know they er, erm, they took him off and they er, tortured him, he got tortured quite a bit. Erm…

He didn’t- he didn’t-he- what happened, did he not try to leave with you and your nan at the same time-

No, he er, basically what the er, my uncle and my er, er, dad said at the time, things are getting bad, we’ll get you two out and we’ll follow on, we’ll come later on.

So did you leave before the announcement?

Err, just slightly before [okay] yeah, yeah, cos they knew what was happening [yeah], so they said they would be safe, just for me and my gran to get out, um, so my dad tried to get out and then finally eventually he did get out. Umm so…when he came, then I went and lived with him in er, in er, errr rented accommodation in Cranford. [Mm-hm] I remember that. My grandmother stayed in Greenfor- uh, in Norwood Green.

Okay.

Then eventually I think uh, um, what happened there is, I was nine or ten…t-eleven. Um…eleven by the time I moved, we moved out of Cranford with my dad…and we lived in Hounslow by Lampton School.

Okay.

So I went to Lampton School. My grandmother went from gr- from Norwood Green, they put her into the accommodation that she’s in now, which she’s been in there for twenty-five, thiry years maybe. Twenty-five years at least.

Wow.

Yes I think it’s something like that- I think it’s twenty-five odd years. Because I know that because she just had a- she just bought a TV last year because she kept that same TV for twenty-five years.

Wow [Laughs].

XXXX personally I wanted to buy her something XXXX- but she’s, no!

She’s refused.

Refused. ‘This is the TV I've had, I’ll use it…till it goes, if only when.’

Yeah.

Sooo, then I uh, went to Lampton School…erm uh, from er, eleven to seventeen, um, uh, then I went to uh, college, Hounslow Borough College [mm-hmm] for a couple of years. Ah, then I went to- then I started working-

What was your first job?

Er, first job was er, er erm, freight forwarding, I worked for a freight forwarding company, importing and exporting um, just the documentation, import export documentation clerk. That was around when I was eighteen and a half a and then by the time I was twenty…a green card which we had applied for [mm-hm] came through so, my dad had also remarried as well, so, my stepmum, my dad and they had a kid as well, [mm-hm], his name is Amir, and er, we moved to America.

Okay.

And that was in 1986. Erm, my gran was obviously still at the same er, um, home that she’s in now, [mm-hm] and just moved to America.

Oh, going back to what you were talking about when you was in school, [yeah] in Hounslow, was it, your school in Hounslow-

Oh, Lampton School?

Lampton, yeah.

Yeah, high school.

Erm, can you remind me of your first day at school?

[Pause] Errr, not really, no [laughs].

Was it your secondary school?

Yeah, secondary school, yeah, yeah. Yeah, y’know it was er, it was okay, it was a good school.

Was it a mixed ethnicity XXXX a white school?

It was a mixed school, yeah a mixed school. There was er, Asians cos Hounslow had a lot of Asians at that time cos a lot of Asians came into Hounslow. Uhh yeah, it was a mixed school.

Do you remember coming across any Ugandan Asian communities, when you were-?

Errr, no, not really, no, no. No. It was kind of- it was kind of er, a little bit of the odd one out because I came from Uganda- a lot of the other peoples were, were either from India or Pakistan. So not many people were um, from Africa, just save y’know…

Yeah. And did you have like a mixed, social circle of friends, did you experience any issues?

Erm, well at that time when I was growing up in er, in er, where was that? I went to school, high school in ’77…and er…finished in ’83, erm, I mean there was a- yeah, in that period there was a lot of um, National Front erm [mmm], and British movement, it was a lot of racial- skinhead, I-I grew up in a skinhead area so it was [yeah] very, very tough time to grow up in, in this country, if you’re an Asian.

Yeah.

Ummm there was a lot of er, hatred.

Can you remember what any of your neighbours were like, th-the- your local community?

Um, well we lived in flats, very isolated in a sense y’know, we really didn’t er, er s- at that time when I was actually going to school, I was living with my dad, [mm-hm] when I was about eleven and he was working shifts at the airport.

But what was he doing at the airport?

Er, I think he was in catering, in the catering, y’know where they catering for the airlines [yeah], he was doing something like that. But also, uh, y’know I was on my own quite a bit [mm-hm], at home.

Yeah.

So um…[someone enters and says ‘Alright, boss.’]Alright, thanks…Um so yeah, so I was on my own quite a lot so we didn’t really associate- the only time I went out was um, we all went out to see my gran a lot [mm-hm], and my aunts, and my uncles would visit, that’s it really. Yeah.

Yeah and what was it like- what did you do in your spare time?

Oh basically, er, spare time was er, there was a park next to me at that time, at that time there was no video games so, [laughs]and on the TV channels, there was only three at the time.

Yeah.

Wasn’t any of those cable. My youth was spent out in the park playing football and cricket.

Really?

That’s it, every single day. Football and cricket, football summer holidays, football, cricket, football cricket. And then er, um…I think in 1979, when I was about thirteen or fourteen, I then uhm, my Dad sent me to America on my summer holidays, I would go to Minnesota and visit my aunt.

Yeah.

On my summer holidays spent- most of my summer holiday cos he worked here all the time. So yeah that’s how I got to experience America at that time, in the early days, um, that’s why we-we went there cos we applied for our green card.

Yeah.

Basically we applied for our green card in 1918 (I think he means 1980 here), and we got it ’86.

You applied in 1918?

80 [80]. Yeah, 1980. Took nearly five and a half years to get. And at that time you can apply for it if you had a blood relative [mm-hm], which was my aunt, my dad’s sister, who was living there and she was a citizen.

Yeah. Was there any particular reason why you wanted to go to America?

Uh,better life [yeah]. A better life, yeah. I was a much, much better life, my parents knew it was and erm, cos we visited there and we knew…yeah.

So when you were growing up, um in London, you were saying- the community where you grew up was kind of very isolated and, there was a lot of skinheads?

Yeah.

Did you have any like run-ins with them or did-

Luckily enough I didn’t, but errrr…y’know kept myself to myself [yeah], but it was very er, y’know it was very- you had to be very careful where you walked and stuff like that. Erm, erm, y’know at night or errr, yeah. You just had to be careful really.

Was there- were they physically very violent in that area XXXX-

Physically they were very intimidating, they were in groups all the time [mm-hm], there were never individuals…erm…yeah, yeah, y’know basically I’d come and go to school, come home, really go to the park and that’s it really, didn’t have much of a- didn’t do anything much than that [yeah], more than that. [14:53.3]

Erm, what was it like when you moved to America? Cos at that point you were…about…twenty?

Twenty. I moved to America when I was twenty.

Yeah.

Er, basic my, we met in, we went to Minnesota where my aunt was based and er, my parents basically said they want to move to Florida and I said I didn’t want to move because I thought it was er, I thought it was for old people.

Florida? [Laughs]

Yeah, yeah. I thought it was just for old people, I didn’t know much about it at that time. So they said we’re moving and I decided to stay with my aunt.

Okay.

So that’s when we-when I kinda left home.

Mm-hm.

Yeah, so stayed we stayed in Minnesota and then er, the thing is I’d been in Minnesota for the last five years, but only in the summer.

Okay.

So all I knew about Minnesota was beautiful hot weather all the time. [High-pitched squeak in the background]. Now living there, erm we moved there in September and come October, November, December, it was absolutely freezing, with temperatures minus seventeen degrees. Erm, that’s when I said basically I didn’t want to live there. So we had some relatives erm, just some relatives in er, California.

Mm-hm.

So I er, went down to California and lived with a family that er, we were somewhat n- rel-relatives with. And er,…[makes tutting sound] I lived there for about a year…Erm, there wasn’t much prospect of jobs and all that there- I mean, not for me at that time, I was trying to find myself.

Yeah.

So I lived there for a year and then I came back to Minnesota cos that was kind of the headquarters cos my aunt- my two aunts were there.

Yeah.

And another aunt from- the one that was living here, remember when I said that [yeah] she had also moved to Minnesota as well.

Okay, so at that point it was just Mrs- y-your grandmother just XXXX-

Then yeah at that point it was just my grandmother living here- then oh although my other aunt- uncle was here, Nisardeen (?).

Yeah.

Er, the pilot.

Yeah.

Erm…[makes tutting sound] so yeah, so I then from Cali- from California lived there for a year then came back to Minnesota…and then I got a job in freight forwarding, what I used to do here.

Mm-hm.

And, uh, the beauty of like America is I started driving, doing the lowest job, which was driving the, the truck with all the documents from the office to the airport and doing that run for about six, seven months-

Mm-hm.

And er, I worked my way up and then in two years I became the export manager, looking after five people…Erm so that’sss, what I, y’know, er, that’s what the beauty about America was- if you worked hard you worked- you worked your way up quickly and er, yo-you then become quite successful doing that.

Yeah.

The opportunities are there- much, much easier. Erm, so after I did that, then I got er, offered a job in California freight forwarding again [mm-hm] so I decided to take another chance and go down there. Erm, the job wasn’t that great, the money was good but the job wasn’t satisfying so I kind of erm, then I stayed in California for another year.

Mm-hm.

Then I came back to Minnesota…[makes tutting sound] came back to Minnesota, didn’t know what to- what I was doing, what I wanted to do in life, I was- this was in 1990.

Okay.

Er, so I moved in ’86, by 1990 I was moving around doing things and then I, erm, was in Minnisota. Then I decided to come back to England. [Pauses]. I came back to England, got a job at erm, PIA in erm Heathrow airport.

Okay.

[Makes tutting sound] And erm, renting accommodation, er in Hounslow, near my grandmother. Erm, and then I erm, from there…what did I do? I…played for a football team here-

Did you?

It was just a local team. Erm, and I broke my leg…within the fi- in December. I moved here in like, October, got a job for two months then I broke my leg. It was quite a very bad- it was a bad, bad break. Erm, so I had a cast on there and I had to lay on a y’know, stay on that for six months.

Mmm.

I had nobody else here…er, couldn’t afford anything, didn’t have money, so I had to li- stay at my grandmother- my grandmother had to look after me.

Okay.

Er, for six months on her couch. And at that time they s- th-the warden said y’know, you can’t have your living there anymore. And I had no other- so then I had to move and erm, they put me in erm…they put me in a place called The Thorn Cliff in Hounslow or Heston erm, and that was where all the refugees were…er, living [mmm], it was a place where er, it was a- you just had a small little room and all different nationalities were there and, it was erm, I don’t know how you would describe it- what do you-how would you describe somewhere like that?

Like a halls kind of thing? Residence?

Yee…

Do y- were y- did you share kitchens or…?

No it was a catering er, it was a, you get- [okay], you go where the train, you get catered, [yeah] yeah. It was that- it was horrible. It was absolutely horrible…but I had no choice, I had no money, my leg was healing at that time- starting to heal six months later.

Mmm.

Erm, then I just basically erm, erm, got a bike- bicycle, started biking to get my leg er, rehabbed, and I got a job at a golf course in Twickenham, erm just as a- at the pro shop, just erm, y’know gettin- selling golf items and getting tickets for people to play golf. And I did that for about three-four months, saved enough money for my erm, plane fare.

Mm-hm.

I think I saved about three hundred and fifty pounds…and er, then I- in September of that er, ’91 it was, 1991 so can be 1990, er, September of 1990 or October of 1990, so spent basically a year here, my leg got healed and I went back to America. Went back to Minnesota, with I think three hundred and fifty pounds in my pocket.

That was it?

That was it. And I was with my two au- my aunt up in there and I- and she had a massive basement and I said I’d like to have the basement…erm, this, I suppose, strikes me more than anything else is that she said that I need some rent and I said I’ve only got three hundred and fifty pounds…she said I don’t care so, I f- fine I gave her half of my money-

Mm-hm.

And the other half, I sent out CVs to about fifty companies to get a job straight away. Within two weeks I got a job…I applied for anything and everything and I applied for- I got a job as a- well, the ac- the position was for an accounts clerk, and obviously I didn’t have a clue about that. But I went in there and this Chinese company erm, were importing furniture and importing scooters.

Mmm.

The guy looked my previous background in freight forwarding and he said well maybe I could use you for something else. So he started erm, he said I’m bringing these things in called scooters- this was in the early infancy of scooters, in 1991.

Mm-hm.

And erm, he said I’d like you to look at this and erm, maybe start making calls around the country and see if you can erm, er, sell these products around the country.

Mmm.

Soo I did that for a- 1991, ninety…one ni-, a year and a half. Then there was a major…erm show in Atlanta that all the suppliers of mobility equipment go there, and all the trade people go there to buy erm, for their shops and all that. And I was actually exhibiting the shop rider scooters, erm from Taiwan at that time, the manufacture it was Taiwen. And when I got th- and so erm just for the first time my boss said we’re going down to Atlanta and we’re gonna exhibit these scooters with the manufacture in Taiwen, [noise of child shouting in background] so I did that and while I was down there, erm, a, another corporation who, from Canada were gonna buy the shop mobility distribution for the whole of the United States and run it themselves. So as I had been in it for a year and a half, they said we’d like you to work for us…but the catch is that you would have to move from Minnesota and move to Orlando, Florida. And I said yes. So I…I then from er, y’know having absolutely nothing then moved- and not knowing anything- I moved fifteen hundred miles south to Florida, to Orlando. They basically gave me all the tools, they set me up with a two bedroom apartment and office in that place, they set me up with a van, all the tools, computers, everything. Erm, paid me a very good salary…and said go sell these products around the country. So basically I would just- I’d just pick up the phone and just call all over the country and the way at that time- that was before the internet and all that-

Mmm.

To do my mark- my research to who do I sell to, I’d go down to the lub- public library and on microfilm I would make copies of all the- basically all the yellow pages, erm ads around the country- you have that in one facility.

Yeah.

So, erm, my XXXX in Texas for example, any town in Texas I would look at the section in the yellow pages about mobility, copy that, go home, phone them and say hey, I’d like to come and visit you [pauses]. So basically yeah, then I got set up basically working for this company, shop mobility…erm, in Orlando in ninety- I moved to Orlando in ninety-th- December of 1992.

Mm-hm.

And erm, from December ’92 I got paid a very good salary and the salary increased every single year because my performance was very good. Erm, then in 1996, in December ninety…six, I bought my, I bought a house.

Mm-hm.

Erm, which I was able to do because I travelled around the country, all expenses paid, hotels- everything. So the salary I was b- able to save, all of it yeah. So I was able to afford a house- I bought my first house in ’96. Erm…and then erm in ’97 or ninety-se- ’98, 1998, these, this Canadian company had been bought out by another company.

Mm-hm.

Erm, who were an American company who wanted to do the distribution but they wanted to be, they wanted to be in erm, they wanted me to move to West Palm Beach. Cos that’s where they were located, which in Florida.

Okay.

I erm, then said er no to that because I basically liked where I was living. Although the money was extremely good, it was more than I was getting paid. But I, basically didn’t like the area, y’know in, in, in, I was very happy, extremely happy in where I was.

Yeah.

So de-decided not to go for the money and decided to stay in a comfortable situation. Erm, then I commuted to West Palm Beach erm, every, every week- they would pay for my hotel and fare- air fare. Erm, and after three months they said well we want you to make a decision- whether you want to stay here or, or go back. Oh, oh, either stay with us or leave.

Yeah.

And I decided to leave. Erm, prior to that I’d made a manu- er, er, a deal erm [tuts], a retailer who was in Lakeland in Florida, who wanted to go into business with me and we were gonna set up a business. Together in Orlando because I was leaving my job. When I left my job, I’m on my- driving on my way back home I called the guy and then he decided not to do it.

Okay.

So it left me, basically, without a job now and er, nothing, nothing at all. So I basically then decided to open my own business - I borrowed some money off my dad to open the business and er, had a really good business there in Orlando for er, nearly five years.

Is this erm, selling scooters?

Yeah, selling mobility equipment.

Mm-hm.

Did pretty well there, erm y’know being able to survive with my- it was- it was very good. It was very good doing that. Erm…then er, I suppose then I got married, er, came here on my holidays around erm, er, through a friend of the family, introduced to a girl from here- we actually didn’t really- we met a little bit but we talked on the phone more than anything else-

Yeah.

And then she- and then she came over to the States- things weren’t actually very good at the time because actually the business was starting to decline…Er, I think I lost a little bit of focus on that. And erm, and what else? And we weren’t getting along- she then got pregnant there, had a baby and then after, we decided to move back. [Pauses]. Er, y’know, and then I moved back here to Ameri- to London in er, December of 2003.

Okay.

So er, I’ve been here ever since.

So ten years this year.

Ten years, yeah, so then, I mean, we came back here then we separated and we finally got divorced [mm-hm], erm so my child is now nine and er, here I am. I’m working at shop mobility at the moment [mm-hm] which er, is a, is funded by the council and run by Esil (?), which is a charity. Don’t know how long this is going to go for.

Mmm.

But I have erm, due to the fact that not knowing that we’re gonna have a job or not, next month or not, I’ve decided to open my own business [okay], again in mobility - er, retailing, selling wheelchairs and scooters and have an e-commerce website- so I’ve got that to cover me if anything was to go wrong I’d just go back into that.

So will you be launching that soon or are you doing it at the moment now?

I’ve actually launched it now, yeah [okay]. It’s, it’s launched now, [clapping noise] last week I launched my e- er, e-commerce website. Erm…and basically what I have is an e-commerce website that er, allows people to buy er, equipment that gets delivered to their homes, such as er, small aids to daily living stuff.

Okay.

Erm, but I won’t sell mobility equipment nationwide because I can’t service it.

Yeah.

I’m selling that kind of stuff in a twenty mile radius of Ealing Broadway, erm, station.

Okay.

That way I can service people. And the company is called Viking Mobility Aids.

Okay, make sure you give me your card! [Yeah] I was gonna ask you, when you said that, the er, strikes you when you moved into your aunt’s basement [mmm] was she asked for rent.

Yes.

Why- why were you shocked? [Pauses] Because- [laughs]

Because it was my family- it’s family, yeah. I was in shock because it was family…but it was a great thing t- for me because it kind of sho- y’know it helped me understand…erm, y’know that-that- it made me do things basically-it made me y’know, rather than er, not doing things she really made me think and er, get a job straight away and um, get b- y’know.

Do you think she did it on purpose?

Yeah I think so, yeah, definitely.

Cos I’ve noticed something about the Ugandan Asian communities, that they’re very entrepreneurial and [yeah] um, very supportive of one another as well [yeah]. So do you think that, that, that aspect of being self-employed and working really hard, was that something that you perhaps got from your family or- is that something you’ve always been- in- is that something that that’s kind of like [yeah] comes natural to you?

Erm…

Or…

I don’t know, I don’t know about that, I don’t think, I’m not sure, because I’ve not, I don’t know, I don’t know if- cos I was living with [yeah] my grandmother at the time so erm… I don’t know I think it’s just the fact that er, surviving y’know, learning to survive especially when you’re so- on your own, I kinda felt like I’ve been on my own all my life really, in a sense [yeah]. And it’s if you wanna do good you’ve just got to go out and do it, you’ve gotta get y’know- erm, there are plenty of opportunities out there I think for people, it’s just knowing how to get them.

Yeah.

Erm…

Have you ever been uh, back to Uganda?

Yes, I- while I was living in America I, I decided to take my grandmother, erm, in 1998. I came over to London, picked her up and er, took her to Uganda. And my uncle was alive at the time, his name was Jameel Dean.

Was he the one that was the er, the driver [yeah], the racing driver?

[Talking to another person] Hi Younis, how you doing? [Talks to him for seven seconds]

Erm, your uncle was there, in Uganda at the time?

Yeah.

What was it like going back to Uganda for the first time? Or since you, since you left?

Yeah, well I left when I was six, didn’t really know much about it erm…it was, it was, it was good, it was er, a d- a different experience, I didn’t think that they would have what I thought they’d have. I mean there was a Hugo Boss shop there, y’know things like that- was I was very shocked that they had that kind of stuff.

Yeah, did you imagine it to be a little bit, y’know a bit more deprived or-

Yes, yes, a lo- I mean it-it-it is but things like y’know, you can get- buy a Hugo Boss shirt, suits there, yeah so it was different, my uncle had a really nice place there erm, and everybody was very good, y’know. He was a different er, kind of Asian I think erm, where Asians there erm, y’know, er, had servants and all that and they kind of kept a distance where he did but he- they’re more like family and friends. Nobady was like- they all loved working for him, with him and all that kind of stuff, and he was er, d-did you see all that stuff on the wall about him?

About Jimmy?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean he was incredible cos when I got in the van with him, in his XXXX car, and he went down the high street- everyone knew him. Ev- he would honk- everybody knew him- he’d give people rides. He was just that kind of man, he was just inc- he was an incredible man.

When you say he was like a different kind of Asian- what would the-the -the kind of stereotype or th-

The stereotype I mean, I think it’s just, it’s just when the- when the Asian have their-their servants they don’t, they, they don’t treat them very well maybe or they, y’know, it’s not- I think he just treated them- everybody as family, y’know.

Yeah.

Everybody as family, he just did things, er, gave people rides and stuff like that, it was very- it was, it was good, very eye opening.

Would you go back to Uganda? Like ho- are you still attached to Uganda do you reckon?

Er no, no, now he’s not there…

Mmm.

That was the only reason for going. Ah, there is no attachment to Uganda at all, I don’t think there’s anything I wo- no. nothing at all.

Yeah. So, when you think of home, wh- where do you envision-

Erm, to tell you truthfully I think, I, I believe my home is America.

Yeah.

Definitely America. America- I think being y’know, I’ve been back here ten years, I’m just erm…I don’t like it at all. I don’t, I don’t, I don’t like the weath- one the weather here is terrible. Erm, y’know…the people are very different, you can’t meet people in this country because nobody talks to each other. You don’t know your neighbours…erm the British are just so cold, y’know, y’know if I went to Ameri- when I was in America- when I say went to a place, a restaurant, a bar with friends, er, not only with friends, you also get to meet other people there but everybody is so friendly, you get chatting, you talk to people, you meet a lot of friends, er, just very good. Erm, this country is so- it makes you so isolated, a very isolated country. Erm, apart from the weather, y’know, jus-it’s not a place I really want to- the houses- buying a house in this country is virtually impossible for people. Erm, it’s not a place I’d like to- I’d like to move to the States but I can’t because of my er, my child.

Right.

Er, I suppose when he gets a little older I will but I would definitely be moving to Florida within the next ten years.

Definite part of your life?

Definite- oh well, y’know I do like England, I- y’know I- my plan would be to- to live in Florida for the winter months and to live in…here in the summer months, if I could.

Yeah [laughs].

Yeah, if I could but, no as far as retiring and anything, it would definitely be in Florida.

Okay.

Yeah, without a doubt. I’m not er, I’m not very fond of this country at all, I mean I like- not fond of the country, I mean- maybe because it’s not in a posi- cos it’s different to where I’ve been in America, y’know I’ve had a big. luxury-luxurious house, had th-th-th-the space and everything there and then coming here and y’know I’ve got a flat here which was really good but I feel isolate- y’know, I feel so claustrophobic in it, yeah.

Especially where you’ve…lived in America-

Yes, yes, I just feel yeah, size-wise, everything. Erm…it’s a depressing place, especially in the winter [laughs], very, very depressing. And my ten years here have gone very quick…extremely quick, I mean it’s just a fast w- I suppose for me I was used to a slow pace of life as well.

Yeah.

Florida was a slower pace of life than it is here in England. Y’know you get your fast pace of life in, in a place like New York and the north-east [mmm] they’re very fast paced, you can go there but- and I did go there but I found them to be the same as England- I would never live in- anywhere where it’s so congested like that [yeah]…not anymore, no. It’s not a big thing- London is not a big thing for me at all.

And your son- do you- does your son know about your erm, your upbringing when you first came here? Does he know about you- you were born in Uganda and you came-

Yeah, he know that but he doesn’t know th-the hardship or anything of how things were.

Yeah.

How I grew up and everything, y’know, he’s- I try and make his life a lot different. He was born in America but only for three months [mmm]. But he’s been back there a couple of times, he loves it there too as well.

Yeah.

Erm, but er, I suppose I can’t do anything because his mother is here and…we’ll just have to wait and see.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But is- America is home for you-

Yes, yes, I feel that America is home- I was there eighteen years…erm, I’ve been…first six years of my life, yeah, was in Uganda, then the next fourteen years of my life was in the UK, then the next eighteen years of my life was in America.

Mm-hm.

And the last ten years of my life has been here.

Yeah.

So that’s how it’s worked out.

Okay. Thank you Adil.

Okay, thanks.

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Adil Dean

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: 29/04/13

Language: English

Venue: Ealing, London

Name of interviewer: Lwam Tesfay

Length of interview:

Transcribed by:

Archive Ref: 2013_esch_UgAs_23

2013_esch_UgAs_23

2013_esch_UgAs_23

This is Luam XXXX interviewing Adil Dean on the twenty-ninth of April 2013. Can I just get you to start off by telling me your full name and your date of birth?

Right, my full name is Adil Dean and my, er, date of birth is the twenty second of April 1966.

Ok, where were you born?

I was born in Uganda.

Where abouts?

In Kampala.

Um, can you tell me a little about your family?

Ermmmm, yes I, er, er, let’s see, I was er, erm, my gran-, er, er, what shall I say. I was born there, my parents were divorced, divorced when I was six months old so…um, my, I, er, lived with my father’s side [mm-hm] of the family.

Yeah.

And, er, really all I remember in- basically is er, just a little bit about Uganda, not too much, [yeah] and where we used to live and all that. Ah, but we came here…where I was- came to England when I was six…[mm-hm] er, as a refugee with my grandmother.

And, what did your parents do?

Uh my dad, I think he worked in the er, erm fire extinguisher game. [Really] He was selling fire extinguishers to companies.

He had his own-he had his own business?

His own business there, yes, yes. Yeah.

And your mother?

Not too sure, she left when I was six months old.

Ok.

Yeah.

And was it- your dad Indian? Was that- your dad Asian?

Er, yes, yes, yeah. Asian, uhhh, my grandmother…um, she was half African and…uh, Turkish, and er, um, Indian. Yeah.

And what can you remember about Kampala?

Umm….

Did you go- did you go to school there?

I remember going to school there, yeah I went to school there. Erm…

I’ve seen a picture of you, erm, at your nan’s house, in your uniform.

Oh yeah.

I think, in your little cap.

Oh that was here [was that here?], that was in Woking, yeah.

Ok.

Yeah, yeah. That was-

There was one of you, you in all white.

It was in gr- All white! Oh that was a say- yeah, that was my grandmother, dressed me up. [Laughing] That was here yeah. That was when we probably just came here.

Ok.

Yeah…um.

Do you remember anything about your school in Uganda?

School, no really, no. It was very, very er, vivid memories erm, er…not really, no. Erm… I know where we lived, y’know I can visua- think, see it in my, er…

What does it look like?

[Sighs] Oh God, it was a house at the bottom of the hill and the steps going all the way up to the top of the road, it was quite a lot of steps…Uhhh. Yeah, I don’t remember too, too much.

But you lived with your nan?

I lived with my grandmother, yes.

And, did you- did you have her…other people living with her too? Was it just two of you?

Erm, my er- at that time I think it was my uncle Jimmy. I think my Dad was living there too. I think that was it really. [Phone rings] Oh sor-sorr…[it’s alright]. [Clicking sound, then phone half rings -Talks to someone on the phone for 13 seconds]. [Phone beeps] Sorry,[that’s okay] I’m gonna have to take a XXXX out to a lady [yeah that’s fine, no problem].

And do you remember um…it’s back on now [yeah]. Do you remember leaving Uganda?

No really, no, I don’t remember leaving there, I kinda remember coming to England that’s it.

Okay.

Yeah.

What do you remember about coming to England?

Ahhh, coming to England, and uh, being held in a, um, detention centre for six months. In I think it was Conbrooke by the airport, that’s where they had the detention centre.

Was this near Heathrow Airport?

Yes, near Heathrow Airport, yeah [okay]. This was back in I think ’72, yeah. When I think that maybe, [hissing sound] probably all other uh, Asian refugees was aswell.

Yeah. What was the detention centre like?

Uhhhmm, I don’t know, we just didn’t er– I think my gran and me just had the one room we shared that…and uh, just uh, just remembering all the, all the different people, just uh- I remember going to the canteen [mmm] that’s really all I remember, really, yeah.

Was it like a communal-being served communally, like a…like a soup kitchen but-

Yeah, kind of, yeah, you get your tray and go get your food and all that.

Yeah.

And, yeah.

And how long did you stay there?

I think it was six months, six months there…six months there, erm, then erm, at the time my, my aunt was living here, she was married, my er, grandmother’s daughter [mm-hmm] ah, near er, she lived in er, Hounslow. Um, so I think what happened there is- then after that they then er, put us…in Cranford [mm-hm]…my gran and me, to be close to my aunt. Erm, but they put us in a caravan which was in the back in the garden, back of someone’s house.

Okay.

But it didn’t have uh, I can’t remember but again it wasn’t a very pleasant time.

So who’s, who’s house or whose, who was living on that site?

Erm my gran, me and my grandma were living in the caravan, erm…er…obviously it was probably rent from the council, y’know [yeah], given to the council, whatever but, er, yeah, that was very unpleasant, it was just a horrible place really. The uh, heating y’know, it was one of those g- portable heaters you had [yeah], it was cold, damp, it was terrible cos y’know, coming from a hot country like that and then coming here…

Yeah.

Yeah so it wasn’t very good. Uhmmm lived there- I d- can’t remember how long we lived there- we lived there for a while, then we got um, and obviously we were trying to get some housing, better housing, then they took, then they sent us to…from there…they sent us to Woking.

Okay.

We spent some time in Woking there, maybe a year or two… Erm, and in Woking it was erm, a place called Constitutional House, it was with other refugees- I remember a Tibetan guy at that time [mm-hm], there were people from Tibet coming. So I remember Tibetan guy- I remember Polish family there, they were there. It was good though because er, I then got sent to a school, private school. That’s where you- what you saw my gran’s pictures, a great green hat [mmm] and all that…Um so that was maybe a year…then obviously what my grandma’s trying to do is say to them, y’know, can we try and be closer to her daughter [hissing sound], because we didn’t have anyone else here.

Mmm.

Ummm, so we stayed there for a little bit and then I think the next step, then they sent us to Battersea…

Okay.

Uhh, they sent us to Battersea and uh, um I remember going to Latchmia School in Battersea, and that might have been for a year or two…I still can’t remember the d- time and dates…

But you were around eight, nine…

Eight, nine [yeah], yeah eight! Seven, eight, seven, eight. Or cert- somewhere around that area. So that was maybe for a year and we’re still trying to get closer to my aunt. Ah, from Battersea…where did they send us? We lived in…Cranford, in the, in the caravan…then they se- uh, and then Woking…then Battersea, then from Battersea they sent us to Norwood Green.

Okay.

Ummm which was a nice two bedroom, uh flat in Norwood Green- so er, I finally had my own…room, [yeah] basically.

Ummm, so lived there for probably a year…um, then my dad eventually came because he was trying to get out of Uganda, he erm, was erm…he was trying to get out of Uganda and uh, every time he tried to get out they used to, y’know they er, erm, they took him off and they er, tortured him, he got tortured quite a bit. Erm…

He didn’t- he didn’t-he- what happened, did he not try to leave with you and your nan at the same time-

No, he er, basically what the er, my uncle and my er, er, dad said at the time, things are getting bad, we’ll get you two out and we’ll follow on, we’ll come later on.

So did you leave before the announcement?

Err, just slightly before [okay] yeah, yeah, cos they knew what was happening [yeah], so they said they would be safe, just for me and my gran to get out, um, so my dad tried to get out and then finally eventually he did get out. Umm so…when he came, then I went and lived with him in er, in er, errr rented accommodation in Cranford. [Mm-hm] I remember that. My grandmother stayed in Greenfor- uh, in Norwood Green.

Okay.

Then eventually I think uh, um, what happened there is, I was nine or ten…t-eleven. Um…eleven by the time I moved, we moved out of Cranford with my dad…and we lived in Hounslow by Lampton School.

Okay.

So I went to Lampton School. My grandmother went from gr- from Norwood Green, they put her into the accommodation that she’s in now, which she’s been in there for twenty-five, thiry years maybe. Twenty-five years at least.

Wow.

Yes I think it’s something like that- I think it’s twenty-five odd years. Because I know that because she just had a- she just bought a TV last year because she kept that same TV for twenty-five years.

Wow [Laughs].

XXXX personally I wanted to buy her something XXXX- but she’s, no!

She’s refused.

Refused. ‘This is the TV I've had, I’ll use it…till it goes, if only when.’

Yeah.

Sooo, then I uh, went to Lampton School…erm uh, from er, eleven to seventeen, um, uh, then I went to uh, college, Hounslow Borough College [mm-hmm] for a couple of years. Ah, then I went to- then I started working-

What was your first job?

Er, first job was er, er erm, freight forwarding, I worked for a freight forwarding company, importing and exporting um, just the documentation, import export documentation clerk. That was around when I was eighteen and a half a and then by the time I was twenty…a green card which we had applied for [mm-hm] came through so, my dad had also remarried as well, so, my stepmum, my dad and they had a kid as well, [mm-hm], his name is Amir, and er, we moved to America.

Okay.

And that was in 1986. Erm, my gran was obviously still at the same er, um, home that she’s in now, [mm-hm] and just moved to America.

Oh, going back to what you were talking about when you was in school, [yeah] in Hounslow, was it, your school in Hounslow-

Oh, Lampton School?

Lampton, yeah.

Yeah, high school.

Erm, can you remind me of your first day at school?

[Pause] Errr, not really, no [laughs].

Was it your secondary school?

Yeah, secondary school, yeah, yeah. Yeah, y’know it was er, it was okay, it was a good school.

Was it a mixed ethnicity XXXX a white school?

It was a mixed school, yeah a mixed school. There was er, Asians cos Hounslow had a lot of Asians at that time cos a lot of Asians came into Hounslow. Uhh yeah, it was a mixed school.

Do you remember coming across any Ugandan Asian communities, when you were-?

Errr, no, not really, no, no. No. It was kind of- it was kind of er, a little bit of the odd one out because I came from Uganda- a lot of the other peoples were, were either from India or Pakistan. So not many people were um, from Africa, just save y’know…

Yeah. And did you have like a mixed, social circle of friends, did you experience any issues?

Erm, well at that time when I was growing up in er, in er, where was that? I went to school, high school in ’77…and er…finished in ’83, erm, I mean there was a- yeah, in that period there was a lot of um, National Front erm [mmm], and British movement, it was a lot of racial- skinhead, I-I grew up in a skinhead area so it was [yeah] very, very tough time to grow up in, in this country, if you’re an Asian.

Yeah.

Ummm there was a lot of er, hatred.

Can you remember what any of your neighbours were like, th-the- your local community?

Um, well we lived in flats, very isolated in a sense y’know, we really didn’t er, er s- at that time when I was actually going to school, I was living with my dad, [mm-hm] when I was about eleven and he was working shifts at the airport.

But what was he doing at the airport?

Er, I think he was in catering, in the catering, y’know where they catering for the airlines [yeah], he was doing something like that. But also, uh, y’know I was on my own quite a bit [mm-hm], at home.

Yeah.

So um…[someone enters and says ‘Alright, boss.’]Alright, thanks…Um so yeah, so I was on my own quite a lot so we didn’t really associate- the only time I went out was um, we all went out to see my gran a lot [mm-hm], and my aunts, and my uncles would visit, that’s it really. Yeah.

Yeah and what was it like- what did you do in your spare time?

Oh basically, er, spare time was er, there was a park next to me at that time, at that time there was no video games so, [laughs]and on the TV channels, there was only three at the time.

Yeah.

Wasn’t any of those cable. My youth was spent out in the park playing football and cricket.

Really?

That’s it, every single day. Football and cricket, football summer holidays, football, cricket, football cricket. And then er, um…I think in 1979, when I was about thirteen or fourteen, I then uhm, my Dad sent me to America on my summer holidays, I would go to Minnesota and visit my aunt.

Yeah.

On my summer holidays spent- most of my summer holiday cos he worked here all the time. So yeah that’s how I got to experience America at that time, in the early days, um, that’s why we-we went there cos we applied for our green card.

Yeah.

Basically we applied for our green card in 1918 (I think he means 1980 here), and we got it ’86.

You applied in 1918?

80 [80]. Yeah, 1980. Took nearly five and a half years to get. And at that time you can apply for it if you had a blood relative [mm-hm], which was my aunt, my dad’s sister, who was living there and she was a citizen.

Yeah. Was there any particular reason why you wanted to go to America?

Uh,better life [yeah]. A better life, yeah. I was a much, much better life, my parents knew it was and erm, cos we visited there and we knew…yeah.

So when you were growing up, um in London, you were saying- the community where you grew up was kind of very isolated and, there was a lot of skinheads?

Yeah.

Did you have any like run-ins with them or did-

Luckily enough I didn’t, but errrr…y’know kept myself to myself [yeah], but it was very er, y’know it was very- you had to be very careful where you walked and stuff like that. Erm, erm, y’know at night or errr, yeah. You just had to be careful really.

Was there- were they physically very violent in that area XXXX-

Physically they were very intimidating, they were in groups all the time [mm-hm], there were never individuals…erm…yeah, yeah, y’know basically I’d come and go to school, come home, really go to the park and that’s it really, didn’t have much of a- didn’t do anything much than that [yeah], more than that. [14:53.3]

Interview details

Name of interviewee: Adil Dean

Project: Ugandan Asians

Date: 29/04/13

Language: English

Venue: Ealing Broadway, Ealing.

Name of interviewer: Lwam Tesfay

Length of interview: 46:58

Transcribed by:

Archive Ref: 2013_esch_UgAs_23

Archive Ref: 2015_esch_VoLe_01

Archive Ref: 2015_esch_VoLe_01

And would you like to invite your interviewee to come?

Would you please come and join us?

I’d love to.

Hello

Hello there.

What’s your name?

My name is Mo

How’s that spelled?

M. O. But that’s – my real name’s Alice Kirby, but lots of people call me Mo. No one really calls me Alice, so you can call me Mo.

OK. Um, Mo, what’s your date of birth?

The 30^th July 1983.

And um, where are you now?

I live in Clapton now, in Hackney.

So you can clarify. You can say, where are we, actually now?

Where are you now?

Oh, right now? I’m in Forest Lane, which is in Newham, erm (laughs) and a place called The Lodge, at a Woodcraft Folk group. That’s all I know, I think.

So, um, were the roads busy on like a daily basis, around where you lived?

The woods?

The roads.

The roads. Um, yeah, I guess so. My memory of them is probably just of normal London roads, but I imagine they’re probably busier now in a way, but I think… I don’t remember them being particularly busy.

Did you feel comfortable and safe when walking around your area?

Um, I lived in lots of different places, all around east London, Newham and Waltham Forest. We moved around quite a lot, so in some of the places I lived in, in some of the areas I did feel safe and in some of them I didn’t feel so safe, but when I was very young I usually did feel safe. When I became a teenager and I started to be more independent, then sometimes I didn’t feel quite as safe.

What sort of places did you live?

I lived in Cattle Estate for a while, when I was a teenager, and that always felt quite scary, parts of that have been demolished now I think, and the block that I lived in has been demolished. Um, I lived in Hackney for a little while, um, near the Chatsworth Road, when I was growing up, and that’s when I was a little bit older, and that didn’t always feel so safe. Um, yeah, but it was mainly when I got older that I started to feel less safe, not when I was young, it always felt quite safe when I was young.

Um, did you feel that you were emotionally effected by the construction, and if so, what were your emotions?

Um, I think it all seemed quite abstract to me when I was young because I was too young to really have an idea what was happening, I knew, mainly friends who had either parents or older siblings that were quite involved in the protests and were quite effected by the building of the road and the eviction of the squats and things like that. Um, my parents have links with quite a few of the people who lived in the squats and I used to go there when I was younger as well, so I feel like those people were quite effected by it but I didn’t really understand the ins and outs of what was happening, because I was quite young. Yeah.

About how old were you when this was happening?

In my head it all goes on for quite a long time because my parents knew people who lived in the squats that were evicted and I had an older friend who my brother’s friend, my brother’s a bit older than me, my brother’s friend’s boyfriend lived in the squats and we used to go and hang out there and my parents knew some artists who lived there before they were gonna be evicted and that all ranges from when I was about… I can’t even remember when it began… maybe 10, or 9, but then I remember it going on later, because I was a bit confused when I was talking to my parents about it because I remember there being some protests when I was in secondary school and I remember people living in the foresty bit right on Hollow Ponds, which is right on the top of Leytonstone High Road, but that was quite a lot after, so in my head it’s quite mixed up, I don’t really understand… I don’t really remember when everything was happening, or what it all meant really.

And what type of people did you see in your…

In my local area? It depended where I was living at the time, but to take some examples…it varied quite a lot, because sometimes we lived in… like when we lived in Cattle Estate it was a council estate so there was lots of families all quite closely packed in together, um, very, quite diverse, but my parents are also creative people so they were friends with lots of artists and lots of people that lived in squats and we also lived in sort of communal living situations, or houses with lots of people, so I was always surrounded by creative people, but we also lived in some council estates, so also people from really diverse backgrounds, not particularly well off people. I remember there being quite a lot of, I don’t know, danger in a way. It sometimes felt quite unstable in those places. But also quite warm places as well. Yeah.

Um, by any way were you disturbed by any loud music or loud sounds…?

Um, I think when we were living in quite close quarters with other people, so either when we were in estates, or when we were living with more than just my family, with bigger groups of people, there was always quite a lot of music, and it wasn’t always like loud music that the neighbours were playing, sometimes it was music, because my dad’s a musician so there’d be lots of music in my home, and that was always quite… I remember going to sleep listening to people making music, and that was always quite nice. And I do remember going to visit some of the squats as well, and the particular squats that you’re kind of… the squats that were evicted for the building of the road, I remember spending some time there with a friend of my brother’s who lived there and he was a kind of reggae DJ and I remember him playing lots of music, and I was quite young at the time as well, so it was quite fun, I thought it was quite cool. I thought it was quite a cool thing that he was a reggae DJ and I used to hang out with him (laughs).

Do you feel that stress was relieved by the music in any way?

Er, there’s different kinds of music. I feel like there’s different… there’s noise and there’s music. I feel like if you’re next door to your neighbour who’s playing really loud dubstep, and you don’t really want to listen to it, that’s noise, but if you’re choosing to be in an environment that playing a certain kind of music, then that’s music that you’re enjoying, and it’s usually quite an enriching thing, rather than an unwanted thing. So, I was only… no I don’t think I ever was… and I think actually when you’re younger you’re less bothered by things like that. Even unwanted noise I don’t think particularly bothers you when you’re a kid, because you probably make a lot of unwanted noise yourself, so I don’t think it’s as important to a child.

Have you visited any of the places you used to live?

Erm… I’ve not been inside any of the places. I live quite close to one of the places, now, so sometimes I go past it and look at it, and sort of have a vague memory of living there when I was a kid. But one of the estates I grew up in has been demolished now, so sometimes I have been past that I tried to imagine this huge tower block where there’s now something completely different and that’s quite interesting, to try and imagine what was there before what’s now there.

I was wondering… do you prefer… if you could change it back to how it was, like not your age or anything, but the whole surroundings, for it to be as it was before or as it is now…?

Umm… I’d like to give you a really simple answer to that, but I don’t think I can (laughs). Um. I think how it used to be is so mixed up in my memory of my situation because I was moving around so much, and I was surrounded by so many different things, so I haven’t got a very clear view of the state of the way things were then. Like I don’t even know any specifics, like when these protests took place and stuff because it’s all in my abstract memory, so I don’t really have a very clear memory of how it was, or even the political situation, I don’t have a very clear memory of it. But I remember it feeling quite exciting and quite lively, and now it doesn’t feel quite as exciting and quite as lively, but I think that’s also because there was a lot of struggle going on, so that’s not necessarily a good thing, that there was a lot of struggle, but it felt quite powerful and I feel that less now, but that might be because I’m in a different situation. I’m not as part of it.

Thank you.

You’re welcome. Thank you.

Guys that was re-

(Tape stops. Panel of young interviewers changes)

Would our esteemed guest like to enter?

Yes, I would love to.

Um, can you remember anything about the protests?

Yes. I remember going on a protest when I was in secondary school. I’m not sure, in hindsight, what the protest was about. It was to do with the link road, but when I look back on it I think what was happening with the link road was a lot earlier, so I’m not sure what this protest was about. I was quite young when I went. I remember that, and it was quite crazy and busy, and there were lots of police.

Were you heavily involved in the protest?

Not really. I didn’t really understand what was happening. So it was quite um… it felt quite violent in places. I was a bit kind of frightened I guess, so I wasn’t that involved, but there was quite a lot of tussling with the police.

Were you at the forefront, or were you more at the back or in the middle of the protests?

Um, I think it was…during the protest I wasn’t in the forefront, but I think when it was disbanding and when the police were getting involved, I think it was hard to not be in the forefront because they were just trying to clear everyone out, whether you’d been a trouble-maker or not.

How did you feel about that?

Um, quite frightened at the time, because I was quite young, and I felt like they were being quite forceful, in a way, so I felt quite frightened.

Was it a local protest, or was it in other parts of London?

No, it was in Leytonstone. Um, I can’t really remember exactly where it was, but it was around the Grove Green Road sort of area.

In protest in general, not just the ones you’ve been to, do you think protests are effective?

Um. I like that question. Um. Yes. They’re effective. They have an effect, so they’re effective I think. Um, it depends very much on how the protest is treated by the people trying to enforce restrictions on it, and it depends on how the people behave, and it depends on how the protest is organised I think, As well. Um, but they can be very effective, yeah.

Would you ever involve yourself more heavily in a protest than you did in that particular one?

Um, I have since, and yes, I probably would again.

Were they enjoyable?

Yeah, they were enjoyable, yeah. There were times when they were really enjoyable. Times when they felt quite powerful, because you’re with a big group of people who are all kind of, feeling passionate about the same thing, so it’s a very unifying thing, it feels quite, it feels quite powerful.

In those protests were you an organiser, or were you just there because (inaudible) the concept of protest?

I was there. I wasn’t an organiser for any of them. Um, I was there… I was involved in the music that was going on at a protest, once, and I sort of had a bit more of an organising role in that, but I wasn’t really organising the actions that were taking place, it was more just being involved in the music.

What was the music you were making?

Um, lots of people with instruments playing music, and there was a choir that I was running at the time, that was there. It was quite impromptu, I hadn’t organised anything but there happened to be a few people there, and we did some singing and changed some words to some songs to make them relevant to what we were doing, and things like that.

Would you ever organise a protest? And if so, what would it be for?

I don’t think I ever would organise a protest, because I don’t think I’d be very good at it, um… I don’t think that’s my forte, organising protests, but it is some people’s fortes, and that’s very good, that it is, but I don’t think I ever would.

Can I just make a suggestion? Given that this project has a focus on music and protest I think it would be really interesting to ask a little bit more about the songs that they were singing and the words that they changed, because I think that might be really relevant to this project.

What songs did you sing and what words did you change?

Um… we were singing a song called Blood and Roses. Bread and Roses, sorry, which was an old protest song. We didn’t change any of the words to that one, because that one was quite relevant, and that was about… the song’s called Bread and Roses, and it’s basically asking for more than just basic human rights, its asking for access to culture and creativity and things that are more than just basic human rights, so that’s what the song is about, but it’s a very old protest song that was sung in a … I think it was something to do with a factory that was something to do with cotton production, or something. And what else did we sing? We sang um, an old Gospel song which is, I can’t remember what the title of it is, but it’s about… the lyrics are something like ‘gonna lay down my sword and shield, by the river side’, which is to do with peace, basically.

Can you remember anything about the art work?

The art work? At the protests?

Yeah.

Um… I don’t remember there being much art work happening at the protests. Um, there was definitely some things that you might be able to call art work I guess. There was definitely some destruction of things, and some kind of burning of things, and stuff like that. I don’t know if you’d include that in art work. I might (laughs).

Was it a very colourful event?

Yeah it was, it was colourful. There were quite a lot of kids there actually. Which one are you talking about? Are you talking about the one I spoke about earlier? The one in Leytonstone?

Any events that you’ve been to.

Any. Well, um the one when I was… the first one that I remember, which was the one in Leyonestone… actually it’s not the first one, one of the first ones, that was… there were a lot of children there and that seemed quite colourful, I guess. And since then, other protests that I’ve been to have always seemed quite celebratory really, there’s an air of celebration and singing and music and creativity. So yeah.

Can I make another suggestion? I know that Mo has got quite an interesting story around that first protest, so can you try and find out what it is?

What’s your story about the protest? (all laugh)

That’s not going to… you have to probe a bit. Think of interesting questions to ask.

Can you give us a little insight into you first protest?

Um, yes, um not going to give it to you on a plate. You’re going to have to work for it. (all laugh). Um… a little insight into my first protest… um, I was quite young, um probably about, maybe about 16, 15 or 16, around that age.

(The tape ends here, continued from video recording)

It became quite a violent protest. There were lots of police.

Was it mainly kids from your school that were doing the violent actions, or…?

No, there weren’t, I was one of the youngest people there. It was the older people that kind of…provoked the violence. And it didn’t really come… it came from trying to disband the people, to get all the people to leave.

Do you know what the protest was for?

It was to do with the M11 Link road being built. And the eviction of some of the squats, but this was quite a bit later when I was a bit older.

How old were you at the time?

Like I said, I can’t really remember, but I think I was about 16.

So you were in secondary school.

Yeah.

What was it like with the other children there?

In secondary school? There weren’t really many other children at the protest, that were my age, because I was hanging around with a group of older people, so there weren’t any of my school friends there.

Who were you with?

I was with, erm, an older friend of my brother’s and my family, called Celestina, she had quite a lot to do with the organisation of the protest, and she’d been involved in the earlier protests as well, and she was married to somebody who used to live in one of the squats that was evicted and she lived there sometimes too. She had a small… a baby…a little baby with her who was in a pram, and I was mainly with her. I used to hang out with her and her husband and her family quite a lot.

Would they take place of a weekday or a weekend or a holiday?

Hmm…I can’t really remember, I imagine it was probably at the weekend, but I can’t remember.

What was it like for your friend Celestina having a small baby at the protest?

Um, quite tricky I think, because it was intended to be quite peaceful, but it became quite, um, scary and violent and the police were trying to clear everybody out, and during the process of trying to clear everybody out it got a bit tussley and violent and one of the police officers was trying to move the pram which had a metal frame, was trying to move the pram out of the way to clear all the people out, and I don’t think he realised that there was a baby in the pram, or a toddler in the pram, and the baby wasn’t strapped in, he was just sitting in the pram, and he was pulling the pram, the pushchair, and the baby was nearly falling out, so I was trying to keep him off the pram, and it was all quite tussley, so I pushed him back like that to try and get him off the pram, and he fell back and hit his head on the floor, and then groups of us were just shoved into a van at that point, so I was taken off in a van by the police.

What was it like after…in the van?

Um, quite scary, because nothing like that had ever happened to me before.

Did you know what was happening?

Yeah. I knew what was happening. I don’t know if I really thought about what was happening. I assumed that we were going to a police station or something, but I didn’t really know what was happening.

Where did you end up?

We ended up at a police station of Leytonstone High Road, erm, which I think is no longer a police station, but we ended up there, and we were put in a cell for a while, and parents were informed, and things like that.

Did the protest get a lot of attention in the media?

I’m completely unaware of that. It’s quite a good question though, but I don’t … it got recognition… I don’t know when I was that age if I had that much interaction with the media. We didn’t have a TV at home, so I don’t know if it would have been on TV either, it might have been in the local newspaper, but I think smaller things like that are possibly a bit more word of mouth. It was big news at school, and it was big news in the local area. People were talking about it, but I don’t know if it was on the news, or in the local papers or anything.

What were you thinking, and how long were you in the cell for?

Overnight. So we were there all night and left in the morning.

What did your parents think of it?

My parents thought that… I think they were quite upset, not with me; they were quite upset with the situation. But I don’t remember them being in any way upset with me. If anything they were angry with the whole situation had been treated.

Were they involved in the protests as well?

No, but they’d been involved in earlier protests, and they had been sort of the outskirts of being involved in the eviction of the squats that happened in the early protests, and stuff like that.

Were your parents happy that you were involved, or, what were their (?) at the time?

Er, I don’t I don’t know. I don’t think they shared with me how they felt about me being involved. I think secretly they were probably happy about it, but I don’t think they wanted to encourage it, because they wanted me to do what I wanted to do, rather than what they were encouraging me to do.

I’m really sorry to stop you, because it sounds like you’ve got a lot more questions to ask, but we have 10 minutes left and we still have one more group, so we’re going to have to stop. Would you thank your interviewee?

Thank you.

Thank you!

(Video ends. Panel of young interviewers changes)

You need to say action.

Action.

Were you involved in the parties and the music as well?

Um yeah… I was involved. I wasn’t really making any music at that point. Um, but I was around quite a lot of music.

Did you enjoy it?

Yeah, I really enjoyed it. It’s probably the thing about it that I was most able to connect with emotionally, was the music that was happening.

What kind of music did you listen to?

I listened to a lot of music that my parents listened to, although I pretended at the time not to be, because at the time I pretended to be listening to punk and heavy metal, I was secretly listening to Curtis Mayfield and Gospel music.

So is that the genre that you prefer?

Now? I think I like it all now. I think sometimes music… and… when you’re a teenager, I think the scene that you’re part of and the music you listen to are very tied up, so I think at the time I was um, listening to a certain type of music, and pretending to… and hanging around with people who listened to a similar type of music as me, so it was all part of who you were friends with, and stuff like that.

So why did you keep the music that you listened to a secret from some people?

Um, because I didn’t understand what it was part of. I think when you’re listening to heavy metal you know what it’s part of, it’s part of a particular scene, and you can be friends with other people that listen to that music, but when you’re listening to old American Gospel music, you don’t really know what that’s part of. Um, so, I didn’t really understand what…I think I was probably a little bit embarrassed of it.

Do you remember any of the musicians?

Um… people that I know, or…?

Musicians that played in the protests.

Musicians that played in the protest. Well I don’t really remember… the guy, I mentioned him earlier, the guy that played a lot of reggae music, he was a DJ but he was quite linked with all of the protest stuff that was happening at the time. But I don’t really remember him playing music at the protests. But music was very much a part of that scene. And protest music as well, which is a whole thing in itself. The music that you sing and the chants and things like that.

When they played music, what instruments did you notice that they used?

Guitars, there were lots of guitars. Lots of singing. Drums. Erm…There was a few bands about, so there was the occasional electric guitar and bass and drum kit and things like that, so yeah.

How… did you run the parties, or were you just involved?

I was too young at that time to run any parties, although I probably would have liked to, but I was too young. So…and I didn’t really go to any of the parties, but I was aware that they were going on, and I was aware that it was quite a fun place to be, and almost a bit intrigued by what was going on there, because there were a lot of older people living in squats having parties. I didn’t really go to any of the parties.

Were some of your family involved?

Yeah… when I was younger they were involved. By the time I was in secondary school, they were not as involved, because we weren’t living in communal living situations or squats anymore. We were living in a house with just my family, so they were less involved, but they had lots of friends who were involved with all that.

Why don’t you ask something about the… Mo started to talk about protest music and chants. Would it be interesting to ask a bit about that?

What sort of chants were there?

Um… I think I’m going to find it quite hard to remember. There were chants that were started by a group of people and then they spread through the crowd, and they were usually about something specific that was being protested about, so to do with the M11 Link protests it would have been to do with the building of the road. I can’t remember what they said. Um…

What about other protests that you’ve been to? Can you remember any protest chants that you’ve heard?

Urm, I don’t know if I can. No. I don’t think I can remember any. I can remember some protest songs, but I don’t think they were songs that we sang at protests, apart from the ones that I spoke about earlier on, which was the Bread and Roses one, erm, er…

Can you remember the chorus from that song?

Yeah…Yes…I don’t know if there is a chorus. There’s lots of verses that one. Do you want me to sing it? Is that what you’re leading to?

Sing it! Sing it!

I might not remember all the words. But the first verse goes

(Sings)

As we go marching, marching, in the beauty of the day,

A thousand darkened kitchens are something something something…

True art are love and beauty…der der ber der ba der…

But the people here are singing, give us bread, but give us roses.

…Which is all about wanting more than just the basics. It’s all about the importance of protest, that song, but I also ran a choir in Bristol for a while, we got a collection of Union songs together basically, and protest songs…

Can you remember any?

Yes… I find it really hard to recall things, but once I’ve recalled it… urm… I remember it now!

(Sings)

Let us pause in life’s pleasures and count its many tears,

While we all sob sorrow with the poor

There’s a song that will linger, forever in our ears,

Oh, hard times come again no more.

It’s a song, a sigh of the weary,

Hard times, hard times, come again no more,

Many times you have lingered, around my cabin door,

Oh, hard times come again no more.

(Applause)

So it goes like that, but there’s lots of verses.

Did you have a favourite song?

A favourite song? I liked that song. That wasn’t a song that we sang at the time though, that’s a song that I’ve learned since. I learned about where it comes from and things like that, but that’s not a song we sang then.

Do you know the song Testimony of Patience Strong? I think that’s what it’s called…

No…it sounds… The Testimony of Patience Strong… Is it a Union Song?

It’s a song about a person, I think it’s from 1880, and it’s an individual testimony about the conditions of a pit in Newcastle, and it’s got a little bit of Jordy in it, but it’s just this person’s testimony, and this person’s talking about why they haven’t got any hair, and why they’re calloused from the pit…erm…the person that the song is about… it’s a true story, and it changed the legislature about who could and couldn’t go down in the pit, after it. It’s a turning point in worker’s rights in history, but it’s a very beautiful acapella song.

Hmm… it sounds it.

Is that the name? It might not be Patience Strong.

It sounds amazing.

It is a really beautiful song.

Because I was into work songs, specifically female work songs work songs of groups of females that would work together and the songs that they would sing, but that kind of led me to Union songs, and Union songs are a lot more kind of written, they’re a lot more formal in a way. The song that I just sang, that wouldn’t really be sung whilst working.

No, it’s too complex.

And it’s a song that’s written to communicate an idea.

As opposed to Willy Brown(?) which you could sing as a work song.

Yeah., Yeah. Exactly. And that’s much more… the work songs are much more to do with rhythm and often an explanation of what’s happening right now.

Simple, repetitive choruses..

Yeah, yeah.

(Someone asks an inaudible question)

Was it loud? Yeah, it was loud. I think most protests are quite loud. I think that’s one of the powers behind it.

What instruments did they bring?

Um… mainly voices. There were some guitars. I’ve been to protests since where there’ve been flutes and saxophones and violins and things like that, but not really no, not really when I was young, that I remember.

(Someone plays Testimony of Patience Strong on a mobile phone. The interview pauses to listen)

Is this the melody that you remember?

Yes, but it’s got music in the background. And I don’t know it, I only heard it the other day.

(Music continues in background – inaudible speech)

It’s a love song…(inaudible)

So she’s working in the pits? (Inaudible…)

I’ll kill it. But it’s big man, it’s really a piece of poetry.

It’s interesting that it probably could be sung by a man or a woman.

It’s a woman...(inaudible)

Guys, we’re way over time, so we’ll have to stop there.

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Alice Kirby

Project: Voices of Leytonstonia

Date of interview:

Language: English

Venue: The Lodge, Magpie Close, Forest Lane, Forest Gate, London

Name of interviewer: Newham Woodcraft Folk Venturers (supported by Polly Rodgers)

Length of interview:

Transcribed by: Polly Rodgers

Archive Ref: 2015_esch_VoLe_01

Archive Ref: 2015_esch_VoLe_02

Archive Ref: 2015_esch_VoLe_02

So if, can I just, can you just start by, can you just count to ten for me to check the levels

One, two, free [three], four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten

Perfect. Yeah that looks good. Alright then. So, um first of all can you tell me your full name? Please. [Laughs]

[Laughs] Ok, yeah, my name’s David Cox

And can you just spell that. I know it’s obvious but we need to spell it anyway

Uh D A V I D C O X

Excellent. And can you tell me the year that you were born?

Uh nineteen sixty seven

Brilliant. And um today we are in your house. Can you just tell me the address of your house?

It’s eighty nine A Surdstone Road E 2 9 HN

And do you know the date today?

It’s the twenty fifth of July?

2015

2015

Brilliant. Ok, excellent. Thanks David. So to start with can you, um, can you just start by telling me where you were born?

Um, well I was born in Wanstead, um, but actually lived in Leytonstone for the first two years of my life and then my parents, um moved to Wan’ I was born in Wanstead hospital and then we decided that, my parents decided to move to Wanstead, um, so I lived there for the first twenty years of my life. And then I moved to, uh, East London when I was twenty two twenty three and I’ve lived there ever since, I’ve been here, in East London f’, uh, Tower Hamlets for twenty five years

Ok brilliant. And, um, you were telling me earlier that your, um, that you said that the M eleven had kind of followed you around…

That’s right yeah

…throughout your life. So can we go back, right back to Wanstead and your early childhood…

Yeah

…and can you tell me a little bit about how…how the M eleven featured in your life when you were very young

Well, um, I remember when we first moved to Wanstead, uh, there was lots of posters, uh, about the M eleven, um, saying no to the M eleven and, um, because there was free [three] public enquiries about the, uh, the proposed M eleven link road so I remember seeing as a child the posters in people’s windows and I was curious about it but I wasn’t obviously…politically active when I was a child then, um, but the George green, I remember playing on there as a child and there was, there was a number of horse chestnut there’s a horse chestnut and sweet chestnut trees all on the green and we used to play on the green as children, um…so basically when, uh, we found out about the link road and that they’d cordoned off the chestnut tree, um, on the seventh of November nineteen…ninety free [three]…um we actually, there was a number of us, uh, there were a number of people in encircled the tr’ chestnut tree which had been fenced off and we all started pushing the fence down. And there was a tree dressing ceremony so people could come and put ribbons on the tree and they sung songs around the tree and there was a small road digger that was in inside the compound which they’s, uh, encircled with, uh, fencing and, uh, a number of people climbed on that and were singing songs. Uh, the security guards, there was too many people for the security guards to to stop so, um, they just pretty much stood back, uh, they tried to stop people, uh, reaching the but there was just too many people for, uh, for them to stop. Um, and then the chestnut tree then became occupied by protesters, um, there was five people living in the chestnut tree…and they built a tree house and they fantastic fing [thing] they did was put a post box on the chestnut tree which meant it became a legal dwelling because people sent them letters of support to the people living in the chestnut tree and when this went to court the, the barrister that was, uh…supporting the the protest’ or representing the protesters actually said that, um, it meant that they had to go for the eviction process so it would be a longer process, it couldn’t just, um, fell the tree they had to go through the legal process of taking out an eviction notice, so it gave them extra time. Um…so basically in Dec’ in December of ninety, uh, free [three] there was the eviction of the chestnut tree and there was basically hundreds and hundreds of police, um, I think eight hundred police actually were at the eviction…and there was, could’ve been twenty eight police vans, down Cambridge Park Road. Um, the eviction happened in the early hours of the morning so it was about six uh, six o’clock in the morning and I remember a claxton horn, the type of horn you use at a football match, and it was really ear piercing, it was just very…atmospheric that, that there was just this kinda misty and then you heard this horn…and I was actually staying with my parents, I didn’t stay by the tree I was staying at my parents ‘cause they live right, very close to the site, um, so I got up very early and run to the site and then…we all encircled the tree, there was four people locked onto the tree. They had drainpipes and they had, um, basically put their ar’ arms in lock in, so they had like handcuffs inside the drainpipes and they were locked onto each other. And the rest of us were encircled around them so that there was just a mass of people surrounding the tree. Um, and I was actually one of the last people that they took away before they broke into the locks, so they actually thought I was locked on at one point and then they realised that I wasn’t and they kind of frew [threw] me on top of the tents that were around the tree. I remember one of the men in th’ uh the tree said he’s an environmentalist leave him alone [laughs] he’s protecting the environment and, uh, I remember the police were very heavy handed, um, they were quite aggressive towards the protesters and there was lots of complaints put in about their behaviour. Um, they pushed, uh, a retired, uh, man Laurie Lockland to the ground, um, he was in his seventies a communist and he was trod on his glasses and they sort of slapped , uh, a young woman across the fa’ the face. Um, they, there is documentation and that’s actually of a police officer drawing a truncheon and I think the truncheon is actually in the, uh, Hornbeam environmental centre, I think it’s one of the exhibits there. Um…police officers were S P G, special police group, and they had overalls on, uh, and they covered up the numbers on their apelettes[epaulettes] so they wouldn’t be recognised. Um…a lot of people got injured, a woman had her arm broken, she was, um, pulled out of the tree and her arm was broken, um, quite a few people…uh, including myself, we were laying in the road to stop the cherry pickers getting to the tree and the police officers leant on us with basically, uh, they put their elbow on your rib cage until, so it was difficult for you to breath, and I had internal bruising for about free [three] weeks. Um…some people had their pressure points pressed on their temples on their head which is very dangerous

Mm

Uh, one friend of mine actually had his testicles twisted by an officer. Uh, they there’s all sorts of tactics that they used to get people out of the roads so they could carry out the eviction. Um, we, we made lots of complaints to Bindham and Co who were a group of solicitors representing the, uh, protest. I think they documented over, you know, over a hundred incidents of, uh, violence towards the protesters

And was dir’, I guess, was direct action, was it a fairly young movement in the UK at that time? So were these kind of tactics that you were coming up against, probably for the first time, or, I mean was there, was there the knowledge within the activist community of these tactics and how to sort of meaningfully respond to them, or were you quite surprised by the tactics or. Do you see what I mean? Do you understand the question?

Yeah. Th’ some of the protesters had been involved with Twiford Down in Whiltshire so they, they were, they knew what to expect from the police and the security. Um, I’ve been involved with CND in the eighties in the anti-apartheid movement, so what was kind of , I dunno, sat down the road from various peace demonstrations so I was used to the police dragging, being dragged along by the, uh, by the police, but uh, but not using pressure points. Um, a lot of the local residents have never ever been involved with protest and, before the M eleven campaign, and they felt compelled to do so because they saw public land being, uh, fenced off and destroyed so they felt compelled to be involved. So I think they found it shocking because they didn’t realise…the state, the police the security would use that level of violence against ordinary people that were protesting peacefully

Mm

But I think a number of us weren’t that surprised

Um, I’m just gonna go back a little bit and ask, you mentioned when, um, when you were surrounding the tree the first time and there were, there was a digger and people climbing onto the digger and you said that people were singing songs?

Yes

Do you by any chance remember any of the songs?

Um…they were, they were songs they made up. The wo’ the…I can’t remember the exact words but…they were trying to make it a celebratory, the whole thing I found about the protest was that they tried to make it fun and they tried to make it humorous. Cause it kind of diffused the violence and this is what I really like about the peaceful direct action movement is that they used, um, creativity, they dress up sing, um, almost sometimes pantomime, or you could call it theatre, um, very visual. And it was a way of getting public attention but also a way of diffusing any kind of violence and saying, you know, we’re using creative methods to put our point across. So I don’t know the exact words but I remember the people singing [laughs]

Do you remember any of the words?

Um…oh there was the one about the, uh, she’s a mountain she gets stronger and stronger, um she goes on and on, it’s uh I think it’s a pagan song about…that you know, um, you can’t really destroy the spirit, it’ll go out on and on and get stronger and stronger

Mmm

Yeah

Excellent, um…and I also, I’m sorry I will come back to this, but I’m also, I want to go back a bit again to your childhood and your sort of early memories of the area that you grew up in. Can you sort of describe any really early memories that you have of that area and playing on the green maybe

Well it was very gr’ a very green area cause the end of the road, we lived in Warren Road, there was a farm at the end of the road and we lived right next to Wanstead Park which was a forest, it was part of Epping Forest but it was, bequeathed to the people of Wanstead as a public park…um, there wasn’t that much traffic in the seventies when I grew up and it was safe to play out on your bike and…uh, the green, there was always people, children playing on the Wanstead green and then also there’s another park, um, in Wanstead High Street, uh, Christchurch park so it’s, I just remember it being a green area, it was safe to walk to school it was safe to cycle, uh, people were friendly, there was lots of local shops…um, and it was a nice area to grow up as a child. It was almost like a village, people actually describe Wanstead as a village on the outskirts of London.

Mmm

So, so it was a kinda unique, um, place…uh, it was also the crossroads between East London cause you’ve got Leytonstone, obviously Stratford and then in the other direction you’ve got, uh, Essex so you’ve got Woodford, um, Chingford Loughton, so it’s a very unique place Wanstead really

Mmm. Um, and you and you talked earlier about remembering seeing posters in people’s windows about the M11, can you remember what the posters looked like?

I think they’re orange with black writing on, I think it just said no to the M eleven

And can you remember when you first became aware of what, what was going on there, what, what was proposed and what impact that might have on you?

Um, well I think there was, there was a, a kind of open meeting where people could go and look at the map, proposed map of the M eleven and, there was a number of people attended that and I think I remember seeing…that it would be going through Wanstead, uh, Leytonstone Leyton and up to Hackney Wick. But I noticed most of the, the, the pro’ well there was, I noticed a lot of properties in Cambridge Park Road would be destroyed and were destroyed, but also in Layton as well…but um

And how old were you when you…started to kind of understand a little bit what, what the proposal was?

Um, well probably only really got involved in my twenties, um, that actually became interested because…I think it was only, it had been an issue in the sixties as far as planning and, but it wasn’t very, um…it wasn’t a at a stage then when it was actually going to be put into practice implemented

Um, yeah cause you said that there were three public enquiries, do you know any more about that?

Um, no it’s just what, it just what I’ve read about, the, I just sort of did my own research and I read about it and apparently, um, even Winston Churchill who was the MP in Wanstead was opposed to the M eleven and so he was probably an MP up, cause he died in the seventies, so I think he was an MP up to the sixties so, even he opposed the M eleven so it would have been going on that long…the idea of the M eleven…um…

And were your parents, involved at all in…objecting or were they involved in

Not until, no, not until the, um, the actual protest, I think a lot of people…when they actually physically saw what was going to happen that…galvanised them into action, I think before that it was probably…it was such a long process that had gone on for such a long time…um, that people probably think well it wasn’t actually going to happen until it did actually happen

Mmm. And do you know when it was very first proposed, do you know, um, what the reasoning behind it was, was it, I mean because in the nineties obviously it was to do with reducing the commuter time out of central London but was that what

That was the main reason because I think they said it would be, so yeah it, it is ridiculous when you think about it, but actually it was to save time and actually…if you build motorways you’re creating more of a demand for traffic and then it’s not going to save any time at all so its, it’s a self defeating thing really

Mmm

Um…the more, you know, the more motorways you have the more traffic you’re going to have and it’s not going to save anyone any journey time, you need to put investment in public transport and pedestrianised areas and, you know, look at local economies where people don’t have to travel so much to work, um, obviously makes cycling a lot safer, encourage that…um…but…the ironic thing is, even, the transport minister at the time Steven Norris was a Conservative transport, uh, minister admitted on a Panorama programme about the whole, uh, road debate, that there was a change in our attitude and that it wasn’t sustainable road building…and he was actually, because, um…actually his reasons I’ve already expressed you’re creating more of a demand for traffic if you build more roads, I mean you have to look at ways of reducing traffic not ways of increasing traffic

So when was that? Do you know when that was?

This was in the early nineties, it would be ninety four ninety five

Mmm. And do you think that partly was a, um…a an effect of the resistance, the protests? Do you think that had a, played a real role in changing public opinion?

Yes, I mean it made, the protest made it very expensive for them to carry out the work, I mean, it’s running to millions the M eleven, um, link road and obviously Twyford Down Newbury Bypass the Batheastern Bypass, there was a whole number of, um…there was at least sixty percent of the proposed roads were cancelled, and this was towards the end of the Conservative government, just before, um, the Tony Blair government got in, so, but actually some people believe that, that direct action helped to bring down the Conservatives as far as there was so much…protest against, um, the road building programme as well as the, the Criminal Justice Act which was designed to stop protest actually…um, coupled with the fact that at the time the Conservative government was every other, uh, week there was a scandal of corruption and sleaze within the Party, so…I think the road protest had a big effect and…we, and after that actually the Labour Party didn’t, um, when Tony Blair came into power there wasn’t as much road building going on and that’s probably because of the protest cause it was very expensive, the public were generally, the general public were in favour of the protest, um…and if you look at the people involved there are a real mixture of people. There were seasoned protesters…, um, school children retired people, um, very, quite influential wealthy people, um, very poor people whose, uh, livelihoods would be affected by closing down, um, people concerned about pollution levels, uh, there was a very wide and it actually united people from all different backgrounds…which was one thing that probably hadn’t happened before, um…within the political sphere because most people…you know, if you’re wealthy you support the Tories if you’re poor you support a more, a more left wing Party, so I think this actually united all people from all different political backgrounds because they didn’t want their local environment destroyed

Mmm. So would you say that the overwhelming feeling from the local community was in opposition to the building of the road?

I think so yes, yes I mean there may have been a few people who were in favour of, or who supported it but I think the vast majority of people were against it…yeah

So can you remember the first getting really properly involved in the…in the, uh, protests in your twenties?

Um

What was it that kind of galvanised you?

I think it was the, seeing the chestnut tree surrounded with fencing and then we pulled down the fence and then people occupied the tree and we, and then obviously the day of the eviction we sur’, uh, surrounded the tree and it went on for ten hours the eviction…um, so it was a very very long eviction. And then after the tree was felled people thought oh it’s, cause it was one of the symbols of the protest, was the chestnut tree and they said well that’s the end of the protest, but actually this was the media, obviously and the establishment but actually then the houses in Cambridge Park Road were under fret [threat] and they were beautiful Edwardian houses that were, had large gardens they were very beautiful houses and um, they were occupied and we built barricades inside them and, actually as we were, that’s when my father got involved, my father was a builder and…he helped to build the barricades, um, there was one room which free [three] women locked onto a washing machine which was full of concrete and they had, um, drainpipes inside the washing machine…and they had a bar in the middle of the drainpipe and they had handcuffs which they locked onto, or carabineer hooks which they locked onto the bar and we had to make the room difficult for the, for the uh, bailiffs to get into, so there was concrete put into…the cavities in the wall, so you have a, like a wooden structure inside the room and you pour concrete into these wooden frames…and there was galvanised steel sheeting, the type of thing you’d put onto a shed roof that was screwed onto the outside of the walls in the other rooms

Wow

And there was

So how, sorry, so how, did that all happen before the pro’ after the protesters had got in and locked on?

Yeah

And then other people

Well basically the occupied, people squatted the houses that were going to be demolished and they, uh, basically built barricades outside, they they built ditches around the houses, so that the diggers would be able to get to the houses…uh, then they put iron over the windows, um…and they made some rooms very difficult to get into, so they’d reinforce them with wood, uh, concrete shuttering iron sheets. And there was only one door in and out of the, uh, room which had, um, was lie a, a big heavy sliding wooden door of a post, a big strong post behind it, so the protesters could get out if they wanted to but it meant that the bailiffs would have to drill through it…so, um, we, we, the housing xxxx was involved, we gave them, uh, the women safety goggles and they had hard hats, uh, dust masks because when the security guards came through the wall there was a lot of debris flying around, bits of wood and cement and it was very dusty…um, but it took them a good free [three] hours four hours to get into the room, they had to drill through concrete wood take the steel shuttering off, but when they got into the room, there was two women locked onto the washing machine and there was one woman who was filming it as part of an independent film maker, and actually the security guards said right we, we’ve, we’ve come, um, across these lock on devices before we know you can release your locks, so they said you can either do it yourself now or we can use, uh, we can forcefully pull your arm out and the, actually the protester was asking about what level of force they’d use and they said well it’ll be painful for you so you’d better do it now…so there was lots, you know, people were very very brave they actually, uh…put their health and safety at risk in a way because they believed in their cause and

So they, did they do it, did they…unlock themselves or did they stay

I think they stayed as long as they could…but obviously the security guards were trying to twist their arms and things like this, but they asked the film maker to leave, I noticed this, they asked the film maker to go before they started to try and get them out of the locks

And do you know if that’s legal?

Well this is what they were asking at the time, can you legally, do that and they said oh we can use minimal force to, to uh, carry out our eviction but… it is actually, I probably myself I’d classify that as assault, if you’re, if you’re trying to twist someone’s arm and you break their arm

And do you know if, was any action taken afterwards or

There was a number of, incidents were recorded and submitted, um, to…by the barristers representing, the solicitors representing the protesters, um…but I think that they, the idea is people held out as long as they could to, to delay the work as much as possible…and miraculously nobody was seriously hurt there was, there were some, people were injured but nobody was actually killed which was miraculous when you think of, uh, people were being pulled off the rooves of the houses and these were like firty [thirty] foot, huge houses and there’s pictures of a man hanging onto a spire, he’s been pulled by the cherry picker and he’s hanging on to a spire on the house and, you know, if he’d fell he would have, certainly be dead and they were smashing up the rooves with sledge hammers whilst people were still on the roof…so they, they the security guards were on a cherry picker which was a large crane which can get up to the roof of the building and it’s got a platform, and they had sledge hammers and other, you know, bits of wood and they were smashing up tiles where people, people were still sitting up on the roof, so the roof could have collapsed with people on, on the roof

Where are we talking, where

This is Cambridge Park Road

Still Cambridge Park Road, yeah

So, I was involved with that and

Is Cambridge Park Road in Wanstead?

It’s in Wanstead, it, it goes from uh, Wanstead green up to, uh…the green man roundabout in Leytonstone so it’s quite a long road, um…and I think there was about six houses were destroyed, um…but it took them two, it took them a long time to, to you know, that was a whole day to evict two houses, um, after that there was a fing [thing] called operation road block, they had, they had a bit, they had a building site which when they knocked down the houses and it was surrounded by fencing…so March nineteen ninety four, there was um, people occupying the building sites for a month so there would be lots of protest people climbing up cranes, so we, basically we’d get over the fence, run past the security guards and climb up the cranes and some of those were forty foot high, I meant they were forty foot cranes and we didn’t have ropes we just climbed up them like a ladder they were just like a, um, a lattice work and you just climbed up to the top of them…and you’d sometimes spend the whole day up there, so you’d have to take, um, water a sandwich and maybe even a water bottle to wee in or something [laughs] it depends how long you, you stayed up there for, but the idea was just to disrupt the work, um, and it was very effective, people came from all over London not just the local area…um…I mean after that, obviously Claremont Road, um, was occupied

So how, um, can you talk, do you know, or can you talk me through sort of the process Claremont Road went through to be occupied, cause it was, first of all it was just an ordinary residential estate and then it was the Acme housing just kind of moved in at some point and, have you got kind of a clear image of the sort of, the change that it went through between it being a residential street to being a street occupied largely by squatters and activists? Have you got quite a clear image of, you know, our residents moving out and our squatters moving in, that kind of, thing?

Um…well I think, obviously a lot of properties were compulsory purchased. There was a couple of residents that refused to go, um, Dolly being one of the residents and she’d lived there all her life, she was ninety two years old and she refused to go, um…there was Richard Leyton I think as well who lived in the road and…there was a number of people who , um…occupied the place, the properties and they turned it into art house and there was a café…uh, and then there was, there were street parties in the road and jazz music, uh, just all sorts of different music actually, different bands playing and then the, the properties started, um, being reinforced so they would…build bunkers and barricades and there was even tunnels going underneath on of the houses, um

To where?

Uh, it was, I think run along…past, um…along the Central Line, but it was actually so they could get supplies in and out of Claremont Road if they need, if it was occupied, if it was under siege. Um, it was quite a long time actually, it was very, they used oil drums to, and they used wood, they had wooden…struts and supports but obviously the had oil drums there as well to make the, so there was quite a small space and people were…um, squeezed through these spaces and, uh…to get supplies in, to and from Claremont Road when it was being cut off by the security and the police. But, um, not a lot of people actually knew about it, it was in the film made about the M eleven campaign ‘Life in the Fast Lane’ but, I think they had to keep it quite secretive cause, obviously, if the security guards heard about it they could block the tunnel off or it could be dangerous or, so it’s only a few of the people knew about it, um, there was a huge tower on top of one of the houses named after Dolly, the resident, the oldest resident on Claremont Road…and people locked onto that, um, on the final eviction day. Um, but the, the street, there was a good atmosphere, there was like a street party atmosphere in Claremont Road where the furniture was taken out onto the street, so it’s almost like bringing the community onto the street with the sofas and chairs and tables and people had games, they were playing games on the street and…music, um, plants and lampshades on the street [laughs] so it was actually, it was the reverse of, it was putting people first rather than cars and the idea was, reclaim the streets, actually, it’s about people not cars and…um, it was a very very good, uh, idea cause then it, the ‘Reclaim the Streets’ movement sprung out of that, they started having spontaneous street parties, um, I think there was about five, uh, street parties in London protesting about, uh, road pollution and that came out of Claremont Road, so that, that was a really good idea that came from that, um

So were there any cars on the street? Were there, was it blocked off to cars?

Um, well no, I think, it, some of the protesters may have had vehicles, I mean, ironically some of the protesters did have their own vehicles, but they, they used them, uh, wisely I s’pose or sensibly…um, but actually their, their cars were vandalised by the security guards cause there’s footage of all their windows being smashed and…um, there was a lot of, uh…of that kind of aggression towards the protesters, um, as you, going back to the tree, um, there was an incident where people had tents around the chestnut tree in Wanstead and free [three] men petrol bombed the tents because, basically, they, they were caught and there was a court case and they were imprisoned but they were hired, we think, by one of the companies involved with…the construction of the M eleven. So it, it was a building company involved with the construction of, because it was costing them money, delays were costing them money they wanted to get the protesters away, so they hired free [three] men who were, I think, came from Southend, they weren’t local, and one of my friends actually spotted the, um, tents on fire and he warned, he was, he actually lived in Wanstead and he’s come out of the George pub, which is opposite the George green and he saw these people running away and the, and that they’d thrown petrol bombs and he shouted and the people, six people managed to get out of the tents, so the people didn’t get, they could’ve got burnt, they could’ve got badly injured…so it got very, um…they’re using very very dangerous tactics, the building companies the security and the police…so it was, a bit like a war in a way cause…there was lots of misinformation as well, we had, there was people who were sympathetic to the campaign, who were security guards and they tried to give us tip offs to when they were going to carry out the evictions, so it was, um…there was lots of information, you know misinformation and, you know, we had a telephone tree used everybody who supported the campaign signed up to the tree and gave their details and you would be contacted if there was an eviction so you could, be there to support them, you know, cause not everybody lived on the site, um, not everybody squatted the buildings cause obviously some people…uh, went to work or they had, you know, lived in other houses, but they…came down on the days of the eviction and on the weekends and helped with the protest

And you were one of those people?

Yes, yeah, cause I was living in a housing co-op in Bow, um…so I’d go on the weekends and in the evenings and ty to get there for the evictions

Mmm. So, um, so tell me more about the sympathies, the relationships between the kind of sympathetic, um, security guards and the protesters. And, and do you think they were genuine, were they genuine sympathisers?

Well some of the security guards realised that they wouldn’t be there if there wasn’t a protest, so they, and actually some of them were taken from the job centres, so they… realised that, if there wasn’t a protest there wouldn’t be any need for security, so there was a kind of symbiotic relationship, in a way…um, but then some of the security guards were thrown out of the army the police or they were hired particularly because they were aggressive and…they almost hated the protesters and they relished in throwing you off of cranes and twisting your arms and, you know, metering out violence against you. Um, and I expect that there were people, maybe, within the planning department that may have been sympathetic to our cause as well. The people that worked for the council who were…may have been sympathetic, so I think there, there probably was…people who on the face of it…may, we thought may have opposed us, but were sort of giving us information and supporting us in some ways

Was it a Conservative council?

Um…yes, but I think there was, there were a number of Labour councillors…oh no, we had a Labour MP Harry Cohen and there was a number of, um, Labour councillorsbecause some of them supported the campaign…yeah…we had support from the Green Party, uh, Redbridge and Waltham Forest Green Party supported us, cause Gene Lambert came down to support on the protests, um…and Harry Cohen, um, said that the M eleven was a waste of money and he said that the people were against it so we had support from polit’ some political support as well…um, but it was mainly the Conservatives that were in favour of the m eleven link road

Mmm. Ok…so back to Claremont Road, you were describing, sort of describing the feeling of the road and the art and the sculpture and furniture outside, can you, can you just kind of tell me more about the, just the kind of…ambience I guess, the environment the, what it felt like as a place, a community

Well it, it generally, it was just very creative people…seemed to b very relaxed, um, not relaxed obviously when waiting to be evicted but actually when there was street parties they seemed to be, really enjoying themselves, everyone seemed to be getting along really well…um…there was an art house which, um…had a, a motorway, like a snake on one of the walls with lots of money coming out of the snake which I think was supposed to represent the, the greed of, of the road builders…um…they had a café there that served foo’, you know…um, food for the protest, um…they had various bands playing…they had a car saying rust in peace, so, they had the bonnet taken off and there was plants put in where the bonnet was, where the engine was there was all these plants growing out the top of the car and it said rust in peace

Nice

So there was lots of creative, um…plays on words and street performance

What was the café like?

I didn’t actually go in the cafebut…I mean they had music and it was just really laid back and veggie food

Mmm. Um, and can you remember anything else about the art house?

Oh there was a room that had apparently, the first, uh, colour that human beings used was red ochre and there was a room that was painted red ochre and they had gold leave on the chimney breast, on, and there was various pictures of the protest that people had cut out of papers and things I think…but um, there was vines, the outside of the house there was lots of green vines on the front of the house and, sort of, people entwined into the green vines

And, um…just in terms of those like different communities that were living in Claremont Road, I mean you’ve spoken a bit about Dolly and Richard Leyton, but was there a sense, do you think of communality between the protesters and other residents or did most of the other residents leave fairly willingly? Was there kind of…comradery between those different communities?

I think that, a lot of people, original residents, probably had left, but I think the people in the surrounding roads were very supportive of the campaign. Cause I remember some of the local shops were giving food to the protesters and…um, when the evictions happened people came out of their houses and they were cheering for the protesters and they were…um, very supportive, I think the local community was very supportive of the protest…but I think cause people probably offered money for their houses, that some people took that, um, and some people just refused to go even though they were offered money

Like Dolly and Richard?

Yeah, I mean Dolly…said that, um, she worked, I think in her twenties she worked in the city , but she’d lived in Claremont Road all of her life and she didn’t want to leave…and actually it was quite moving cause I saw an article and it said that, um, the protesters had became her friends and she said she didn’t see them as, um…dirty hippies, she saw them as the grandchildren she never had…and apparently her fia ncée was killed in the first world war and she never remarried anybody. She, um, never met anybody after, or she didn’t, um, want to. So she was on her own but then she had all these people that became her friends later in life…and she said they were the grandchildren she never had, so I think that was quite moving

Did you know her?

I spoke to her a couple of times, I didn’t know her personally but I spoke to her, on a couple of the protests, yeah

So would she come out actually to…to the protests?

Well she still lived in that house which was in the middle of Claremont Road and she would talk to people on the street, and there was, all the protest was going on around her because she, eventually she was taken, I think…during one of the evictions she became over, overcome with the stress of the whole situation and I think she was, um…basically she was forced out of her home, she was, she was taken out of the home by…the, I suppose the ambulance crew and the police took her away from her home and she was put into a care home and she only lived for about a year after she was put into the care home, so it was obviously really traumatic for her and she obviously didn’t want to go…but, um…actually I went to her funeral and it was quite incredible because it was, full, of people, it was…all, many young people from the protest movement and they were so, uh, so much affection towards Dolly…and um, they put copies of the road breaker in her coffin and they put some flowers in the coffin, so it was really moving actually…and they sung lots of songs for her…and…they had a photograph of her in her twenties and she was quite a striking woman and they actually said, um, Dolly wasn’t, she didn’t believe in religion because her fiancée was killed in the first world war and she said no god would allow millions of people to be killed…but, um…and it, it was amazing because…she had so, so many friends and she’d made so many friends in later life and she will always be remembered I think and, yeah, it was just incredible really, that sort of solidarity

And did the solidarity continue after she’d been taken, I mean, did the protesters maintain a relationship with her after she’d been taken away from Claremont Road?

Yeah, people visited her regularly, actually, yeah, a lot of the people went to see, to visit her when she moved to the home and she, saw her quite a lot, yeah…no it carried on when she left Claremont Road, um

And can you describe the funeral, a bit more?

I think it was in Manor Park cemetery and it was…probably five hundred people, a lot of people, especially for an older person because, sadly, when people get older they lose a lot of their friends and…sadly, the funerals I’ve been to where younger people have died they’ve had lots of people cause they’ve had lots of friends, but they had lots of people there…the coffin was open so you actually saw Dolly and a number of people kissed her on the cheek and they put things in her coffin…um…and…there was a man called Keith who played, he played a keyboard and he sung songs about her and then…everyone got up and sung a song, um…and it was just a very nice atmosphere, I mean it, it was sad, in one sense, very sad that she’d, it was very sad that she’d had to leave her home after living there all her life but, it was happy that she was well loved and wouldn’t be forgotten and that all those people cared about her…so it was a, kind of strange…day in that sense, there was a sad part of it and a celebratory part as well

Yeah…amazing

But, when she was in the care home there was, one or two of the staff came as well, um, to represent the home and they said they couldn’t believe it, that they, that you know, she had so much, people cared about her and, you know I think they were very moved by it…as well

Do you know how it was for her, it, her being in the care home, did she…build relationships there, did she have

I mean she was there for not very long at all and maybe even less than a year actually and um…I think that she had a lot of, you know, as I said before, lots of the protesters went to visit her and she had, she had you know, quite a lot of them saw her and she probably saw, um, maybe free [three] or four times a week someone would go and see her

Wow

Um…but I expect that, you know, cause she was a real character, I expect the people in the home really liked her as well cause she was a real character and she was feisty and she had a lot of history and, she had strong beliefs and she was a really interesting person, you know

What was she like? Tell me more about her fiestyness or her beliefs or her character

Well I knew that she’d worked in the City briefly as a secretary I think and then she’d, obviously lost her fiancée and…and she’d, um…you know, obviously live in Claremont Road and she just, she was just, uh, determined to stay in her home and she was just, and she said that, you know, she, when she was interviewed by the media they tried to say oh didn’t you, what do you think about all these protesters and squatters coming to your and she said well you know their wonderful, they’re my friends and you know…they’re, they’re supporting me to try and stop, you know, so I can stay in my home and that why should our communities be destroyed

Excellent…Um, anything else, anything else to say about, uh, Claremont Road? Leyton, was it called, Leyton, was that Leytonstonia?

Well Leytonstonia was about, uh, near, there was a little camp near the green man and there was some houses, um, in Fillibrooke Road…but I suppose, yeah, it was all a part of Leytonstonia, yeah, um…yeah I mean Claremont Road is the biggest, uh, most expensive and the longest eviction in British history I think and it, you know

How long did it go on for?

I think it took…two days, the final eviction almost took two days because, um…they got the people out of the buildings and off, that were in the street first and then the people on the tower named Dolly they, they were the last people to, to get off the, uh, out of Claremont Road because they were obviously locked on to scaffolding and I think Greenpeace had donated some steel nets, um, which they had suspended from the rooves of the buildings to the trees so there was like a, a spider’s web of metal of, going from the trees to the roof, space, um, so people were suspended in nets at roof level so quite high up

So that was another, just, direct action tactic, that was like the equivalent of tripods or whatever

Yeah, yeah I mean they had like tripods, there were people in treehouses, there were trees in the road that people were in tree houses, people were in the steel nets, uh, and then there was, people on, actually sitting on the rooves locked on to the chimney pots, um, and then there was the people in the tower…and inside the buildings people had built wooden bunkers, so there was, um, people inside those and then there was people in the tunnel, but that was mainly used to kind of get supplies in and out of Claremont Road…and, then there was people actually on the street itself…but, maybe locked onto cars, sort of and other objects in the street, so there was lots of different ways of…obstructing the eviction

And was that the first, were there, were there any false starts or was that just, the one eviction happened and

No there was a false start because I went to, um one, the first eviction that I went to they took an end house but…we though they were coming for the whole street and, uh, I remember I was on top of the roof and…there was actually, a cameraman tr’, a media person trying to get on the roof and slates were coming off the roof down below and then we actually told him to get on to the back of the house because it was, the slates were going into the garden rather than on top of people, I had to hold his camera and it was like…thousands of pounds worth of [laughs] equipment and he was like, very unsure of himself on the roof but we actually…managed to get him secure on the roof, but…um, we built barricades at the end of the street, and I remember, we thought that day was going to be the eviction…but they took one of, an end house but they didn’t, they didn’t take the whole street…but that had been, you know, a couple of weeks earlier

So you had, so were you all kind of geared up and set for defending the street at the point?

Yes, I mean obviously I wasn’t at the, I wasn’t actually at the large eviction, I was, I was outside of the eviction in the sense that I was on the, um, when they, they cordoned off the road…uh, at the final eviction and you couldn’t get anywhere near the road, the roads were blocked but we managed to get quite close to the protest so we were able to see what was going on…but the first eviction, um, I was on the roof and, yeah we were just preparing to lock on to…on to the roof, yeah

And did you have any kind of, forewarning, before the final eviction?

Um…yes, I mean I think that...people kind of had a, an inkling of when it might happen cause the, like I said before they had a telephone tree and they just phoned people and said right its going to happen now

Mmm

But I think there had been, maybe, there’d been a couple of false alerts, maybe free [three] or four

Um…so, ok, so then it happened, so then it happened and where, where were you while it was happening, you were just

I think I was probably working and then I’d, I left work early and I got there in the afternoon, cause it went on to the next day, but by, I think I probably got there about free [three] o’clock in the afternoon, but the streets were totally cordoned off by then

Can you remember the date?

Um…it was ninety four, well I think it was…December ninety four

So it was cold?

It was quite cold yes, cause I mean, some of the protesters were wrapped up in sleeping bags on the rooves and they’d been up there for over twenty four hours, yeah

And how were they kind of supporting each other, were there, what were they doing for food and water, were people cooking and

Um, well I think they had bottled water and they had like fruit and it kind of like, you know, uh…things that were dry food I suppose, sandwiches and, um…energy bars whatever, you know, they just had things that they didn’t, you know, that they could just put in a bag, a rucksack and just take with them

So everyone was responsible for their own sustenance?

Well I think they, people shared out food and they would just carry it on their person, cause I think, you know, they’d have a little day pack or a, a, stuffed in their pockets what they, you know, their food and their water and things

Mmm

But I don’t think people would, you’d be able to cook in the middle of, well I don’t know [laughs] I think you’d be

No I was thinking maybe the café had a roll or

Oh yeah

Something like that

I think it was, I think at the point of the eviction people just had dry food in their, and water

And was it mostly young people, what was the, what was the kind of…demographic of the people heavily involved?

Um…all ages

In terms of age gender ethnicity

Um…I’d say it was evenly split between men and women, so there was as many women involved as men,

Um…people from seventeen.. right up to about to about... well ninety-three because Dolly was ninety-three. Probably mainly people in their thirties, twenties and thirties but quite a lot of people of all ages really. I mean there’s people, retired people involved, umm… you know, people in their forties, all different ages really. Um… I mean there were Asian… not… I suppose mainly umm… white British I suppose, but there were Asian and African Caribbean and Asian people involved but probably not, you know, it wasn’t…[silence]… diverse in the sense that, I think it was, yeah, probably umm… I few people from different backgrounds.

And were they mostly, kind of, local people that got involved or were there, umm, activists from diverse backgrounds?

A lot of activists, yeah, a lot of people probably from Twyford Down. Um… but quite a lot of local residents, I mean, some, a lot of the people actually lived… in Claremont Road there’s a lot of people from Leyton that lived in Leyton and that once said that they were involved

No but I mean in terms of, kind of, non-white, the non-white British people that were involved, were they mostly local people that were lending their support?

Umm… I think they were actually protesters, no, they were actually…

Right, they were protesters, ok

They were actually people from the protest movement mainly, yeah. Yeah

I see. Excellent. And so after the, umm… after the eviction had happened, what happened? I mean, what happened immediately after that to Claremont Road and to the protesters? First of all what happened, do you know what happened to Claremont Road immediately after it was evicted, like, how quickly was it demolished? Or, how… what immediately afterwards?

Well, there was a place called the Dairy where the… a lot of the protesters went to the Dairy. They occupied this old Dairy which was quite new to Claremont Road… and that’s when… sort of, Leytonstonia happened, you know, the houses that were quite new to Leytonstone station they were occupied. Umm… I think the road was pretty much demolished within a few days of after the eviction

Really?

It was demolished pretty quickly. It was cordoned off and then demolished. I mean there was a few, umm… you know, we tried to get back into the site but it was all cordoned off and… umm… yeah. So, directly after that a lot of people went to the Dairy and occupied that area.

So that was just one building, was it?

Yeah, that was quite a large building that they occupied near to Claremont Road. And then you had Leytonstonia, umm… Montstonia? It was near Fillebrook Road, round the back of Leytonstone station.

What was Montstonia?

It was just a house that they just called Montstonia [laughs]

Do you know why they called it Montstonia?

I think, just a fun name to call it

[Laughs]… So everything was ‘onia’, yeah? Wanstonia, Monstonia, Leytonstonia

It was the whole idea, it was like having an independent state, that you declared yourself an independent state

And I’ve heard stories about passports and checkpoints and things, is that… do you know of anything like that?

No I don’t think they had passports. I think, there was a declaration of an independent state of Wanstonia but I don’t think there was…. ‘cos the was a programme, err.. a film called Passport to Pimlico which was about an independent state, it was a comedy, so maybe it was just there were rumours that came from that. There was umm… some people, the Green Man roundabout, there was some trees that were chopped down near the roundabout and the people occupied the trees there as well. Umm… ‘cos I was involved, I was up one of the trees when… during that eviction they just threw us out of the tree and they started getting chainsaws out and chopping the trees down

Hmmm

Umm… so…

What was that like, can you describe your, kind of, that as an experience?

Well I remember being right at the top of the tree and just… I wasn’t locked on to anything but they tried to grab hold of me. They tried… they sent someone up the tree and they were just both grabbing my legs, and trying to pull me off the tree. So eventually they got me off and they escorted me away from the site, and… you know, just kept me away, but they said, you can either come down of your own accord and you can get arrested, but ‘cos I hadn’t been arrested I thought, well, they’re not gonna… they’re just gonna caution me anyway so I might as well stay up there and they… eventually they pulled me down but I wasn’t arrested because, umm… you know they hadn’t arrested me before and… they, you know, if they arrested every single person there the courts would have been chock-a-block with people

Were you ever arrested during the whole period?

No. No, ‘cos I managed to, kind of… I wasn’t as heavily involved as a lot of people were because obviously I was working and I wasn’t living on the sites but I managed to, kind of umm… Sometimes I would change my clothing, like on the day of the chestnut tree I’d… I had four layers of clothing on and I’d take a hat off and put another hat on and take one of my coats off and put something else on, because if they spotted you on a regular basis, the police, and you keep turning up… locked on, you know, laying in the road or your up a tree then eventually they’ll think, right this person, we’re gonna get this person. But if they didn’t really know who you were, you know they kind of pretty much just got you off the site and then left you alone

Hmmm

I mean there was ‘wanted’ posters. Some of the people had injunctions taken out against them, umm… that were probably filmed by the people and they… you know they’d been up cranes, and they’d been involved with lots of evictions, and they had they… they had injunctions, they couldn’t go near the areas of some of the sites, the M11 building sites. So they had their posters, like ‘wanted’ posters up on the wa… up on the fences

What did they look like, can you remember them? The posters

Well, I remember one of the people was called Paul, Paul [Moritza?], who was… he actually works for Greenpeace now and he was very young at the time and he climbed up one of the cherry-pickers and managed to handcuff himself to a cherry-picker, when they took him out of the tree he managed to slip out of their arms and get on to the arm of the crane and handcuff himself to it. They had a… actually they just had a list of the people’s names on the poster and said if you see these people in this area it’s unlawful for them to be here ‘cos there’s an injunction out against them

They didn’t have photographs?

No, it was just like a list of names

[laughs] Umm… was there sort of a mark of honour to be on that list?

Yeah, there was a sort of badge that you were proper hardcore protester, not a weekender, like myself [laughs] ‘cos I was a bit of a weekender

[laughs]

‘cos I was at work [laughs], but…

But seriously, was there that sense of a divide between the hardcores and the part-timers?

I don’t, I don’t think there was a divide, I think people were just happy with the support people gave. Some people just observed and they took… filmed it or they wrote down notes for legal purposes, they’d observe what was going on, residents or… some people would give the protesters food… err, clothing, blankets if they were up a tree or whatever. Umm… some people designed posters and banners for the protest, umm… you know, get the local school kids to make a banner against pollution of the motorway or… They’d be all sorts of different ways people would get involved. I don’t… I think maybe some of the people thought that we’re the serious protesters and they may have, people may have thought that, but I don’t think the majority of them did

Hmmm

I think… they were just glad of the support, you know, fighting for the same cause

Yeah. Ok, so, we’ve left Claremont Road and we’ve gone to the Dairy, can you describe the Dairy?

Umm, I didn’t actually go to the Dairy but I’d known… I heard about this through other friends, through other people involved with the campaign. I mean at that point I didn’t really get as involved as much umm… apart from the Green Man, where the trees were occupied. That was probably the last kind of time I got involved umm… but umm… actually ‘cos you asked me a question before about the history of the M11, how it has followed me through my life, umm… because my dad was brought up in Leyton, next to Claremont Road, he was brought up in Ashville Road, in the 1920’s and 30’s so he was there during the Second World War and he moved to Leytonstone with my mother when they met in the sixties, and then they moved to Wanstead, so…. Claremont Road was where he was born, pretty much the next road to where he was born, then when they moved to Wanstead the M11 was in Wanstead, where I was growing up as a child with my sister, and then I moved out of Wanstead to near Hackney Wick, which is where the M11 link road ends, so it has pretty much followed me throughout my life [laughs]

And earlier actually you were also telling me the story of umm… this areas relationship with the M11, can you…[Both speaking at same time]

Oh yeah

…tell me that again?

The housing cooperative where I live now, Grand Union housing co-op, which runs parallel with Victoria Park, umm… originally the M11 link road was going to go through part of Victoria Park but there was huge up cry and protest because obviously it was bequeathed to the people of East London by Queen Victoria, and err.. the road wasn’t demolished but people were asked to leave, left their houses and then the buildings were occupied and squatted in 1975 and then in 1977 they err went to the GLC, Ken Livingstone, and they got the houses err as a housing co-operative. So the housing co-operative has been around since 1977 till 2015, its still going but originally it was gonna be on the route of the M11 campaign. So it literally has followed me through my life [laughs], which is really weird isn’t it?

[laughs] It is weird, yeah, it is weird. So do you remember when you were in Hackney Wick, was there… was there still stuff going on related to the M11 at that point when you moved to Hackney Wick or had it kind of died down by then?

Umm… I think it had kind of died down because after, directly after the M11 there was Newbury bypass so a lot of people went to Newbury and then there was the Reclaim the Streets campaigns which were, you know, London wide and they were about, basically about err… reclaiming the streets, umm… as opposed to having more traffic pollution and putting the car first, so it was more about pedestrianised areas, making it safe for cyclists and it was… so that was going on, then there was the Criminal Justice Act which was designed to make it very difficult for people to be involved with peaceful direct action. So those things came straight after the M11, which I was involved with those so I went to Newbury for a week, spent a week at Newbury bypass protesting. Umm… and there was also Whatley quarry which was umm… where most of the aggregate for the motorways comes from Whatley, which is in Somerset and it’s the… one of the largest aggregate mines in Europe, it’s huge. So that was occupied as well as part of the protest against the motorway building

Hmmmmm

So there was lots of things happened, that came out of the M11 campaign and there was continual protest going on around the same issues really

And, just in terms of, kind of the local area, did it umm… were there lots of… was there that sort of sense of lots of places, areas being squatted and just a kind of sense of protest and action in and around East London for quite a while after around kind of Hackney and Newham, all of that area? Did that going for quite a long time?

Yeah I think a lot of people did, there were a lot of places squatted umm in Stratford, Leytonstone, umm… and East… you know, Forest Gate, all the East London areas as part of you know, protests. Yeah, so I think it did continue, but not to the same level as before

Yeah, so people kind of moved out of like the Dairy and Claremont Road and started just occupying… [Both speaking at same time]

Empty properties

…empty properties around East London?

Yeah

And carrying on being involved in… [Both speaking at same time]

With Reclaim the Streets

…with Reclaim the Streets and other criminal justice act stuff?

That’s right, yeah. Yeah, that’s right. It was just other pro... yeah. ‘Cos a lot of people didn’t have anywhere to live that were involved with the campaign and they were squatting because they needed a home, but obviously they were protesting at the same time, so they moved into other squats

But that was all, sort of part of the legacy of…

Yes

…of the M11 campaign?

That’s right, yeah

Hmmm

And actually there was another local issue, after the M11 there was umm… a green field, a two acre field that was gonna be developed on, and some of the M11 protesters were involved with the campaign to stop that from being developed

Where was that?

That was in umm, the Evergreen, which was in Wanstead High Street, near Christchurch Green,

Ok

And it was… the police were gonna use it as, they were going to build a police station there, because their police station was small but they didn’t and they were going to sell it, sell it for development. So basically, the local people said that it belong to the loc… it was a green space under the unitary development plan. And the… there was a successful campaign to stop that from being… it’s still a green space but it hasn’t… it’s still fenced off sadly but it hasn’t been developed, because it was refused at planning stage… but umm yeah some of the protesters and local residents were involved with that campaign

Hmmm, and that was successful?

That was successful, yeah, because we saved that from being developed

Hmmm, excellent. And in terms of the kind of social life of that, that time and that area, what was kind of going on socially?

Oh lots of parties, music umm…

Did you… were you involved, did you go to parties?

Yeah, lots of… there was lots of parties in the squats that were kind of umm… yeah they’d be things going on like bands playing, and then there’d be rave music in the evenings and people sitting outside and food and sort of fires outsides, things like that

Hmmm

And then the street parties obviously, there’d be spontaneous street parties, ummm, with Reclaim the Streets and…

How often did they happen?

Well there was one in Camden, Islington, there was one on a motorway actually, umm… I think there was about five altogether but then they happened outside London, so it was just London based. There was Brighton, some in Oxford, they actually spread and then I think actually it went to Europe as well, there was Reclaim the Streets in Europe. So it so of snowballed in a way

Hmmm

It started off in London and then it went to other parts of the country and in Europe

And how often were they happening in Claremont Road, street parties?

Oh, umm… every weekend

And was it, was it a similar kind of feel to the kind of warehouse... raves. Did it start off as street parties and then go into the night and turn into a rave?

Sometimes, sometimes yeah, others would just be during the day and uhh… like street entertainment bands playing and… yeah. Some of them would go on into the night as well

And what was the music like?

Oh, mixture, some of it was ummm… jazz, punk, uhhh… guitar, acoustic music, folk, rave music, ummm…. reggae…

Can you remember any of the names of bands or musicians, or DJs or anything… that were kind of around at the time?

Not off hand. I mean most of the were unknown kind of bands, people just like, local bands and yeah. On the ummm… life in the fast lane they’ve got the Levellers are playing some music, I think they may have actually played a gig for the M11 campaign, the Levellers. But it was mainly kind of lots of home spun bands that people just put together or that, you know… yeah.

So was that really kind of the beginning of the rave scene?

Yeah, it was the early, actually ‘cos the early nineties was the beginning of the rave scene when it all… it was during the Criminal Justice Act because actually the Criminal Justice Act was trying to ban illegal free raves, basically

So it was kind of protests and raves, were kind of bundled in there together?

Yes, yes that’s right actually because when the police were trying to stop people from going to Stonehenge and trying to stop lots of free festivals from happening, and it was during the time of rave music, ummm, so there was a connection with the protest movement and that as well, yeah

Hmmmm. And were, so was there kind of solidarity between... I mean, were they the same people, the people that were big into the rave scene and the people…and the protesters or was it different people and how much kind of overlap was there?

Ummm... I think, obviously because the rave thing was a commercial thing as well, so I think there was probably… a certain amount of crossover but it wasn’t essentially… everybody who was into rave music was a protester. I think it was the…the free, the free festivals was probably the umm, you know the umm… not the organised, commercial rave parties, but the free… the free events that obviously the police were trying to ban it was, they were probably supporting the campaign protest movement, there was that connection

So there were also big commercial things going on at the time as well?

Oh yeah, there was I mean, like, you know it… it’s like all music becomes commercialised in the end, doesn’t it so… originally it comes out of a kind of spontaneous movement and then it gets commercialised, and I mean now there’s loads of clubs where you can go and listen to rave music, but at the time it was people going in a field and just having a spontaneous festival

But do you think the big… the kind of commercialisation of that scene has, kind of has its roots in the Criminal Justice Act?

Yeah I suppose originally, it was like the punk music came out of the seventies which was all… I suppose to be against the governments and capitalism and, you know, and the monarchy and authority, and then that become commercialised. Punk music became pop music in the eighties isn’t it you know sort of a lot of the punk bands become pop bands and become… you know I think a lot of… it’s even like Che Guevara’s image becomes commercialised and even, you know, umm… American companies use his image to sell products or you get his t-shirts in Primark, you know, it’s just the commercialisation of… lots of things become you know, adapted by the commercial markets but originally they came from the protests movements

Hmmm. Umm… so, so where, so where was the kind of, the last area that was occupied before the very end of the…

I think it was probably ummm… well actually the art house behind ummm Leytonstone station was there for many years after the campaign kind of ended really, so it was probably be around the back of Leytonstone station

Hmmm

Near Fillebrook Road

And what about the last area that was occupied before it was kind of… that was actually on the route, was there… that was ultimately demolished? Where was the last outpost of resistance?

Probably Montstonia I think, probably. Yeah

And can you remember it? did you go to Montstonia?

No

No

No. I mean, I’ve seen photographs and read about it but I haven’t, I didn’t go there to that one, yeah. I was mainly involved with… Wanstead and Claremont Road and Cambridge Park Road

Hmmm

And the Operation Roadblock as well, I was involved with that

So, I mean, I asked this question before and I’m still not entirely clear, what it was that kind of sparked your initial interest, why did you, what made you decide to go to that tree on that first day? Did it just…

Ummm…. It just seemed… it just seemed… I felt compelled to be involved because I’d grown up as a child in Wanstead and I’d played on Wanstead Green and I just remember it being a really lovely place to grow up, and then when I saw the people trying to pull the fence down I thought, right this is a good thing to do, you know, to actually reclaim the land. Ummm… and there was people, elderly people, children, mums with tiny children, pensioners, all sorts of people were there, as well as seasoned protesters and I thought, yeah I’m going to be a part… I want to be a part of it rather than standing on the outside, I wanted to be there, rather than watching really

Hmmm

But I remember feeling that I had to go for the eviction in the tree, I really, I didn’t even sleep that night, I was just so ummm… alert to the fact that we had to…. defend the tree. And I remember hearing the klaxon horn and running to the green and actually my parents came about an hour later and they witnessed everything that was going on, then my dad got involved with helping to build the barricades in umm…. Cambridge Park Road in the Edwardian houses. Ummm… so yeah I think, you read about areas that are effected by umm… development, motorways, it could be fracking but when it actually happens to the area that you were brought up in it… you just feel… how can you not resist, it’s almost, you know, you have to, you feel passionate, compelled, ummm… and it… I did find it quite ummm… exhilarating, not exhilar… that’s probably the wrong word exhilarating. I found it empowering actually to protest, I found the whole process of stopping something undemocratic, something people didn’t want, ummm… their you know wishes had been totally ignored and it was just pure profit driven and I just felt it was a really, really good… it was one of the best things I’ve done I think actually being involved with peaceful direct action. I’ve done lots of things in my life but I’ve never forget that, you know, it’s something that will live with me for the rest of my life actually, and I think everybody that was involved will never ever forget that, what the M11 meant to them and all the other protests they were involved with after the M11 and before. You know, my parents, my dad’s 87 now and he still talks about it and, umm… there’s still a lot of the people who live in Wanstead talk about it and they had anniversaries, every December they’d meet on the green and they’d have a fire and they’d talk about it and it went on for quite a few years, they had these anniversary get-togethers

Wow, they’d have a fire on the green?

Yeah, they’d have a little fire on the green in a special brazier thing, and they would sing songs and drink and talk about the M11 and that was… it was to mark each…. the day where the tree was knocked down

Wow, that’s amazing, how long did that go on for?

It went on for about 18 years

Every year for 18 years?!

Yeah, yeah. Every…

So it only stopped a few years ago?

A few years ago, yeah. ‘Cos some of the people passed away, some of the elderly people passed away and then ummm… yeah I think people moved out of the area because it was such a long time, some people that lived in the area moved to different parts of the country… you know, ummm, but it went on for about 18 years, they had an anniversary every year to mark the day the chestnut tree came down

And did you ever go to them?

Oh yeah, I went to most of the time

Hmmm. Can you describe them to me more?

Err… well it’s just, there’d be about 40 people gathering and they would talk and then sing, and we’d share food, they’d take food, share the food, you know people would take some cider or beer, play guitars, ummm… sing songs, stand round the fire, sometimes they’d… ‘cos the tree stump was still there, the actual… they left the trunk, it was probably about 8 foot, no maybe 10 foot in length, part of the trunk left, but then one day it just disappeared, they took the trunk away and we tried to find out what had happened to it because they said it was unsafe because it was hollow inside, and they said somebody… it could be dangerous or whatever but... we did think about ways we could actually ummm… secure it to make it safe because once the tunnel had been put underneath the green, ummm, they put the stump back on the green for a while and we thought, well that’s good ‘cos it… people remember it, you know and it’s still there, but then took it away and they said they put it in umm…. they’ve put it somewhere, you know, safe but they were going to return it, but they haven’t returned it so it’s, that’s a bit of a mystery actually, what’s happened to that trunk because ummm…

So you’ve got no idea?

No, someone said it was taken away to make it secure and then it was never returned

Who’s ‘they’? Who would have taken it away?

Well, the Department of Transport or Redbridge Council I presume, somebody who umm… has the authority within that area, so it’s worth tracking it down actually, the chestnut tree

Has there ever been… was it ever… did anybody ever talk about having any kind of memorial or anything there?

Well because we had the tree stump there, that was kind of the memorial but I mean, you know, it’s worth looking into, it worth be worth finding out if we can get it back or put something there, you know.

Yeah [?]

There should be something there to mark it because it was quite, it was history, it’s gone into all the news and… yeah, it was a historical event

And was that the only tree that was cut down on the green?

No, there was other trees cut down ummm…

Why do you think that tree?

On the perimeter there was cut trees, I think it was ‘cos, ‘cos it was 250 years old, it was the oldest tree

Hmmmm

The other trees were younger trees, they were kind of ummm, maybe 50 or so, some of them weren’t as old, yeah, I think it is just ‘cos it was such an old tree

It really captured people’s imaginations and hearts, didn’t it?

Yeah, yeah

Hmmm. Ummm…. Oh I had a question [Silence] Oh my mind’s gone completely blank of what it was I was going to ask you [laughs]

I’m still in touch with some of the people involved with the campaign

Hmmm

Umm I still see Lollipop Jean, she’s on the [la…??]

Ohhh really, amazing I’d really like to talk to her, I’d really like to talk to her

Ummm and her husband Ron [Goslin?], yeah their very involved. And there was Doreen who was involved in Wanstead umm… I’m not in touch with Neil but I could probably get hold of Neil, but there’s a few people I still see within the campaign

Yeah, that would be great. I did want to ask you as well about umm… the kind of… about the rest of your political career history engagement. So obviously you went off to Newbury, how else did being involved in the M11 impact you in later life? I mean did you carry on, what was the lineage of your political engagement?

Well after the Newbury bypass, I got involved with the Traffic Reduction Bill which was umm… a bill that the Green Party wanted to push through parliament which was to actually combat traffic pollution by actually investing in public transport or pedestrianised areas, localisation. So that got my involved with the Green Party, so from being a protester I thought, well actually what’s the alternative to what we’re protesting about, you know, and then the Traffic Reduction Bill seemed like a good umm… policy to put in place instead of the motorway building, you know. And then I started to think well, ok, that’s one policy that the Green Party’s got so I looked all their other policies and I actually thought, well their probably the closest to my priniciples umm… on social justice, environment, public transport, umm… renewable energy, localisation, and equality, human rights, umm… the NHS, so I joined the Green Party and I’ve been in the Green Party for 21 years umm… and in that time it’s grown and grown the Green Party umm… in Tower Hamlets, this ward where we are now, we’ve got nearly 10% of the vote at the general election, and that’s first past the post system, which is really difficult to make any headway in that system… ummm, I’ve stood in lots of local elections, I got ummm… 1000 votes in this ward, ummm… I think you need to get about 1500 to get elected, so we’re hoping at the next local election to get Greens elected in Tower Hamlets Council, umm… we used to have 30 members, we’ve got about 800 members in Tower Hamlets now and lots of young people have joined err… over the last few years umm… I think we’ve got 70,000 members up and down the country, we’ve got more than the Liberal Democrats and UKIP now in the Green Party, so… it’s kind of the fastest growing party in Britain and it’s since… I think it’s because the other parties are very pro globalisation of corporations, umm… PFI, part-privatisation of health service, they all… basically their all very similar umm… their foreign policy as far as backing America’s errr… wars, and Iraq, they all supported that. So I think it’s the reasons why people are looking at the Green Party now, it’s because they’re the only parry that really is to the left of British politics and is umm… that has a chance of getting in, obviously there’s other left wing parties but they’re… the Greens have got the best chance of getting representation, they’ve got a brilliant MP, Caroline Lucas is a fantastic MP because she’s everything that a public representative should be, she’s compassionate, articulate, calm, intelligent, she’s prepared to get involved with peaceful direct, she works really hard for her constituency, she’s on it, she’s not in it for the money, ummm… she devotes all her time to social justice and the environment

Hmmm

Errr… and we’ve got representatives on the GLA, err… Jean Lambert, Jean Lambert is in… she’s the London MEP in Europe. Err… Jenny Jones is in the House of Lords, because we had… the Greens have got umm… representation in parliament we were allowed to have a seat on the House of Lords, although we don’t believe in the House of Lords, we believe in an upper senate, we don’t believe in hereditary peers and people becoming Lords because their captains of industry and they happen to have given to money to parties, we think you should have an elect upper senate, umm… but she’s in the House of Lords which means they can get bill through parliament, Caroline Lucas is try to get… the rails renationalised, so… it’s useful to have a person in the House of Lords for those type of things

Yeah

Ummm… there’s Darren Johnson who on the GLA and Jenny Jones is also on the GLA as well, and I think we have over 250 councillors up and down the country umm… so we’ve got quite a big influence and there’s umm… Molly Scott is the MEP for the South West and Keith Taylor is the representative for the South East, so we’ve got three MEPs. Umm… I mean it’s slow process in the sense that the Green Party has been around since the 70s, about mid 70s but it’s mainly because the media have pretty much ignored the Green Party, only recently they’ve taken a keen interest… and obviously the first past the post system works in favour of Labour or the Conservatives… umm we don’t have corporate donors or unions supporting us so… we err, a lot of the funding actually we did through crowd funding, last, as the last election which was really successful, they gained a lot of money from doing that when it was just…a democratic way of doing things as well because people just put however money they can afford. Umm…

So how did that work? How did you do that?

Well there was a… err, I kind of crowd funding call and people can donate, put money from £1 or, up to however much they wanted to in and, umm… so if you got your deposit back people would get their money back, it’s like a bond really

Umm and did you do, was it done through, with the internet, was it…xxxx

Though the internet, yeah

There was a website or something?

Yeah, it was done, it was done locally for local parties for also nationally so it was a really good way of, a democratic way of getting money for the party… because most of the money has just comes from members… doing a direct debit each month or just giving the odd donation, coming when the election when the elections come up

Ummm

So I’ve been involved with the Green Party, umm… I’ve been involved with local housing cooperatives as well, two housing cooperatives, umm… obviously I was involved with the anti war protests, umm… yeah so I still go along, I’m involved with lots of community, I do lots of community work as well so, umm… I’ve been involved with… Bow Cemetery Park conservation centre in err Mile End, which is 33 acres of woodland and I’ve done voluntary work there actually doing conservation, umm…

What, like what does that look like?

Umm… well we, we you know clear bridal paths, we plant wildlife planting in the forest umm… take out things which are invasive which can take over, hogweed and cow parsley and umm… put bat boxes on trees umm… wildlife flowers to attract pollinating insects, that types of thing

Yeah

So I’ve done that. I’ve worked for the Environment Trust for two years before they went bankrupt umm… which was umm to… design umm environmentally friendly gardens for schools, so we maintained 25 school gardens in Tower Hamlets… so we maintained them and designed wildlife gardens. Ummm… yeah so that’s pretty much all my activism really

Ummm… so that’s your activism and in terms of the activism umm… more broadly, in terms of activism more broadly I get the, I get the sense that the road protests were a really big think in the sort nineties

Hmmm

And I’m just interested to know your opinion on the kind of, the way that climate activism today with, you know, to what extent is it connected to… to what extent is it part of the same kind of conversation or political movement, and I mean there’s all sorts of other… groups and obviously there’s climate activism, there was the anti-globalisation stuff of the sort of later nineties

Ummm

I just wonder if you’ve got any thoughts on the kind of the relationship between those movements, is it largely the same people? Also who were the... where had they come from, the people who got involved in the anti-road protests in the nineties, who were they, where did they, where did they come from?

Well I think it’s a continual process because I you know, in the eighties you had the peace movements, CND, which people were involved with direct action against the deployment of cruise missiles at Greenham Common… Molesworth, Faslane and some of those people were involved with the anti-road protests, they knew how to umm… people from the anti-road protest movement got involved with Reclaim the Streets and then umm… you had the anti-globalisation campaign, err, this world is not for sale, which was all about globalisation. Then there was the anti-GM protests which happened in the early nineties when, actually when Labour was in power, they introduced the GM crop sites that, there was lots of protests against that as well, and then, umm… after the GM, I mean it was still going on protest about that, and then there was the whole climate umm… action umm protests as well, so I think the connection actually between… interestingly the road protests, the Iraq war and climate change all link up because… the… we’re a fossil fuel driven economy, obviously the Iraq war was about oil, it wasn’t about human rights because… you know America and Britain and the West have supported regimes that are oppressive, and they supported Iraq during the ‘79 to ‘89 war… against Iran. But umm… you know Iraq, they wanted basically to control the oil in Iraq and that’s basically was the war was all about, so… and then of course, the consumption of fossil fuels… accelerates climate change and you could say that in the last 100 years climate change has happened through industrialisation, but also through use of fossil fuels. So they all interconnected in a way, you know the road protests… well that was mainly for the road building lobby, the car lobby and petroleum, you know the pet… oil interests. Umm… and that connects up to the war in Iraq and to climate change, so their all interconnected so I think people all involved with those protests and they you had Occupy which was about the failure of the present system, which favours the very rich and… the rest of the people suffer, basically I mean it’s umm… you know the whole economic crisis didn’t happen because of the public sector, it didn’t happen because of err.. public spending, it happened because of sub prime loans in America, of basically speculative wealth, people investing and knowing that their high risks and the people wouldn’t be able to pay back these loans and it was just… it’s all about profit and its all… I mean the very richest people have actually become even more rich under, under this system, there’s more of an economic divide now than ummm…. any time you know since the 1930’s. I think in the seventies there was more of an equali…wage equality in the seventies than any other time and so, in history. But now it’s, it’s going down and ummm… so, the whole thing about occupy… was about the… it was protest against the present capitalist system and how we need to change the market model to be about sustainability about people’s needs, so we need to think about really investing in health, education, umm public transport, a clean environment, providing decent homes to people, we need to think about really about quality of life, rather than quantity in life, you know people need decent food, clean air, umm… you know, they shouldn’t be a privilege, it should be a human right to health care and… education, and housing and I think, you know, they want to turn it around so that err the private sector corporations are actually in control of these public services, which is, so everything is interconnected, it all, it sounds different each issue, but their actually all interconnected because it’s the same system

What’s the thread then?

Well the thread is… the economic system we have

Capitalism?

Capitalism and fossil fuel driven economy, you know if we had a Green sustainable economy then we wouldn’t be building cars, motorways for cars. We wouldn’t be going to the Antartic and drilling for oil err… we wouldn’t be polluting an environment where species die, we wouldn’t umm… be bulldozing down villages for more air errr runways, so we just need a more sustainable economic base, basciallly, we just need a different system. I don’t think it, I don’t believe in a one party state or a… err… an authoritative state, I think it needs to be decentralist Green, kind of economy. Lots of localisation as well because, I said before if you have stronger local economies then people don’t have to travel as far… ummm it keeps the economy going even if there’s a global recession, if you have a strong local economy it protects jobs ummm and it provides work in community… and it creates harmony in the community, I think there’s a lot of division, a lot of err… poverty and… errr through desperation you know, a lot of crime is through desperation I think this is the other thing about the capitalist system is it pits people against one another, it doesn’t umm… create community, it actually divides communities… so I think it’s all interlinked and I think umm… you know there’s lots of, there’s the anti-fracking demonstrations umm… there’s lots of, I mean all the protests are linked and I think people, the same people probably do get involved, but obviously new people come along, you know, lots of young people getting involved for the first time with politics because they feel… umm… inspired by what’s gone on before them… yeah. I mean lots of people that have joined the Green Party for instance said that the day after the election they joined because they felt so… like errrr 35% of the population actually voted for the government because if you think of xxxx maybe only 50% of the population voted… and then out of that 50% that’s a very small percentage actually voted when you count up all the parties and votes… so you actually get, you know… a party that’s going to privatise… health service and public utilities, probably take us into some more unpopular wars, they just umm… scrapped the green deal that they were going to put in place, they claimed to be the greenest government, the Conservatives but they’ve just scrapped the umm… the green, the funding for green energy

What was that?

It was to encourage people to umm… use renewable energy and to actually put solar panels on their umm roofs and things for the tariff, green tariff and they’ve just scrapped that so, that’s part of their cuts. Ummm so people are angry that they’ve got a government that they really don’t want to have in power and they’re going to do a lot of damage so, a lot of people are joining like the Green Party, or getting involved with protest movements, direct action

So do you think you’ll be involved in direct action and protest movements again in your life?

Errr yes, I mean…

Or have you seen the Green Party as a kind of an alternative to that?

Well I think it’s both ‘cos I think a lot of the people in the Green Party are involved with direct action, I mean Caroline Lucas herself as got arrested for being involved with an anti-fracking demonstration umm… and I think lots of Greens get involved with direct action I think… I think with part of the political… wing of the environmental movement… but I think the two go together and that’s what I like about the Green Party is that… yes it’s a political party, they stand at elections, they try to change things within the system, they want a fairer system, they want proportional representation… they want, they believe in participatory democracy, and grassroots democracy, umm… but at the same time they’re involved with the protest movement so they’ll get involved with CND, the anti-road protests, anti-GM protests, Occupy, because to xxxx you can change society with outside parliament and inside parliament, you can do both, I mean some people may disagree with me and they’ll just think that the protest movement… is the only way and I can see that point of view and even Tony Benn the more happens outside of parliament than that ever happens in parliament. More change. But ummm… I still think that… the Green Party offer… a viable alternative, a political alternative….

Hmmm

But ummm I think we’re going to see lots and lots more protests, I think there’s gonna be, I mean there could be… the government could drag us into some more wars, umm… they want to go ahead with fracking, err…. They want to be able to build 13 more nuclear power stations… in this country which is opposition too ‘cos of safety reasons and ‘cos it’s not a cheap form of energy, and we should be using green renewable energy… ummm… and there is talk of them bringing back the road building programme, so there’s going to be a lot of protests in the next five years

Do you think there’d be significant resistance to that, the road protest movement, and mean to the road pro… sorry, to the road building programme, now, do you think there’d be as much?

I think so yeah, I think because of the… seeing the Heathrow airport expansion there’s a lot of protests against that it’s going through villages that actually are quite wealthy areas and probably where Tories get some support from, and local people are kind of galvanising and getting ready to protest against that

Hmmmm

Along with seasoned protesters. So I think umm… yeah I think it’s gonna be very interesting times and a lot more protesting going on. Yeah

Umm…is there anything else, is there anything that I haven’t asked you that you thought that I might ask you, or that you’d like to talk about?

Ummm… I think we kind of covered the history, the kind of action that happened on the M11, the people… the type of people that were involved… umm… the reasons why I got involved, and what’s happened after. Yeah

I wonder if there was just one final question then, I just wonder if there are any kind of stand-out memories, just like, just very personal anecdotal memories that you’ve got of those times?

Ummm… I think… when people locked on to Dolly that was very emotional in the sense that it called, the last bastion of resistance in Claremont Road was called after Dolly after the oldest resident, and I thought that was really nice that they called it Dolly

Hmmm

Errr… and I remember when people, when the chestnut tree was chopped down, and the emotions were very, you know, local people crying, err… school children were crying, I remember that very well… umm… and then just climbing up the cranes I remember thinking, I didn’t even, not being even thinking about the danger because you just felt you were doing the right thing, and actually being right at the top of the crane and looking down, and then, then when eventually you got down you just felt so good that you’d actually done that, but looking back on it you think goodness! [laughs] Did I really climb up about forty foot up that crane? [laughs] with no rope, and sometimes it’d be in the winter and it’d be quick slippery with ice and…

[laughs]

I probably wasn’t even wearing the right footwear, you know, it just… it’s miraculous that not more people were hurt but some people were injured, but most, the majority of people weren’t and, you know, we lived through very, very interesting historic moment and one that I don’t think any of us will ever forget, you know. Very inspiring

Hmmm…[silence]… Ok

[laughs] Is that ok?

That’s brilliant! Yeah, that’s excellent umm… I’ll stop it if you…

Ok

If your…

That’s fine, yeah

If you haven’t got anything, any last thoughts. Umm, thank you very much

Was there any hesitations or what’s it ok? Was it quite, fluid?

It was excellent

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: David Cox

Project: Voices of Leytonstonia

Date of interview: Saturday 25^th July 2015

Language: English

Venue: 89a Sewardstone Road, E2 9HN

Name of interviewer: Polly Rodgers

Length of interview: 01.51.13

Transcribed by: Kirsty Parsons & Miriam Hopkinson

Archive Ref: 2015_esch_VoLe_02

Archive Reference: 2015_esch_VoLe_03

Archive Reference: 2015_esch_VoLe_03

Right, I’ve got two lots, two sets of photographs, one set are before the hit and the other set when the, the riot police and the squad came to evict the people and to, and then, Claremont Road was demolished and

Can I just stop you for a second, I’m really sorry, can I just ask you to say your name for me before

Maureen Measure and my, I’m Maureen Measure and I’ve lived near Claremont Road for many years

And can you spell your name for me as well

M-E-A-S-U-R-E as in tape, measure

Fantastic, thank you and one more thing, can you just tell me the year of your birth if you’re happy to do that

Nineteen forty one

Fantastic

I’m seventy four now

Excellent, thank you very much. Ok and we’re just starting by looking at some photographs

Looking at the photographs which I took, um, I think it was about nineteen ninety, but it’s in the article, the actual date, and I was walking home from the swimming pool and I saw that Claremont Road which is, was being decorated, so the next few days, next few months, I went and took some photographs and these are some of the decorations on Claremont Road

Ah, that’s so beautiful…amazing colours

They decorated the whole terrace of houses…is in that one, well there’s a coffin there, filled with flowers

[Laughs] And what does it say on here, can we read, can you read

It says

It looks like it says maybe imagine a place

As

As

Homes I think, woodlands

As woods

Homes

Woods and homes? That

Could be, yes…this is a treehouse that the protesters went up in to protest and this is the Central Line here

So we’re still on Claremont Road?

Still on Claremont Road, mmm….

Excellent

These are some of the protesters

Did you know any of them?

I knew some of them, Bundy, Bundy her name is, her name is Bundy

Lovely, and then this is the, I’ve seen pictures of this, this kind of henge, brick henge

Yes, it’s a kind of sculpture

Yeah, lovely

Here is some more street paintings, here is the Central line here, at this point of the street there’s a tent

A very nice camo, kind of bell tent

Mmm, here’s some more

So was this one with the vines, the flowers painted, was that the art house or have I got that wrong?

I think the, we’ I don’t remember which was the art house but it was along there, one of the ones with a, one of the ones which the paint, flowers painted in a frieze, it’s this one

A row of beautiful horses

Here’s another one, this seems to be some sort of…I don’t, what do you call this, some sort of piano or organ there

Yeah, or, or like a pin, not a pinball machine, it looks like some kind of, almost like arcade game, or maybe it’s a musical instrument, I don’t know

Another one

So does this motif of the flowers go all along the whole road?

It went along fi’, seven or eight houses…here’s another one with the motif of the flowers and silhouette of a couple kissing and a silhouette of a cat

Hmm and homes not roads

Here we are again with the furniture in the street

No M eleven, no roads…I love these block colours all around the doors and windows

Here we are again with an iron ironing board empty fridge and I donated the lampshade

[Laughs] Oh excellent, it’s like a whole house outside in the

Yeah

The set up of a house along the, along the road…wonderful, and a bath with a mannequin in having a bath [laughs]

And it also says here, it says H two

H two S O four

That’s an acid I think it is

Oh [laughs]

Sulphuric acid

[Laughs] Oh what’s happening here?

Well it’s, it’s a, it’s a sculpture of a gramophone needle

Oh, yeah or course it is

And the con’, in the concentric circles I suppose, to be the gramophone record

Of course, yeah

Here we have some people, and this was called effing, can I say it, fucking Mick who said fuck this fuck that fuck the other, you can cut that out if you like

[Laughs] No I won’t

Fucking Mick

[Laughs]

And he had a ginger cat and he lived at the end…and he

What was his, so you know what his cat was called?

Uh, I can’t remember but it, it, I was, it had a happy ending anyway

[Laughs] it’s really funny that you tell, that you say that because I’ve come across him lots and everywhere I come across him mentioned in articles and things he’s always called old Mick

Oh Fucking Mick

[Laughs] So it’s funny you saying he was actually called fucking Mick

This is where he used to live, at the very end there and he and his cat

No M eleven, excellent, and is this the rust in peace car?

Yes, I’ve got a picture of that, that’s where he, now this is the, my famous photograph of the rust in peace car

It’s the same on isn’t it?

And there it is

Yeah

Oh no this is another one

Oh is it another one?

It’s another one, this is rust in peace

That’s excellent, so that’s a picture, just for the tape, that’s a picture of a car with, um, things growing out of its bonnet and it says rust in peace on the side…beautiful

I’ve got another one

Amazing sculptures

And this is brilliant, that’s a sort of, stripy van, cut in half with the zebra [zeeebra rather than zebra] crossing in the middle

[Laughs]

And there’s the Central line again

Excellent, so, shall I put those down there, are they

So

Are these

We’ve got as f’, ooo here’s another one, uh, um, before the hit

Oh that’s a very neat…brick, that sculpture…beautifully laid out spiral of bricks…and that’s a

And another one before the hit

Oh wow, this place as a wood homes or the m eleven, so the other poster must, so this whole thing must have been said together I imagine this place as a wood homes or the M eleven…mmm

Now this is a famous photograph, it’s called Claremont tower, they built it as a sort of superstructure on, half way along the terrace and people climbed up it to, to, just to be there and occupy it

Amazing, that’s a lovely photograph, did you take that photograph?

I took that one yeah, yes, I took most of, I took all of these

That’s really lovely, so when was that taken, was that

Uh, it was the day before the hit, I’ve got the, on my interview in here I, I’ll get the dates, I know it was a Monday and I think

On the, um, in your, in your article

In my article yes, I can’t remember the exact year, I’ll have a look

I should, I’ve got it, I’ve got it printed out here

There’s Claremont tower in there

Yeah, oh there’s that photo of, that’s that same photo isn’t it?

That’s the same one yeah

Um…swimming pool in the morning of, uh, Monday morning in the summer of nineteen ninety four

That’s when I took the first photographs of

That’s when you took the photos, oh and then the hit happened, that happened in November didn’t it?

November, Monday twenty eighth

Monday the twenty eight nineteen nin’

Nineteen ninety four, that was it, November twenty eight, you can see because it’s, the trees are bare

And so when did you write the article, I don’t, don’t have a date or anything

Oh about two, that was a couple of years ago

Couple of years ago

Two or three years ago…and then, um, I went down there one Monday morning and um, they said there’s going to be a, they were coming at, actually going to come and, r’ remove the protesters and then demolish the houses one morning, morning, so I was going back for something and I thought I’ll stay, and I sat at the end near fucking Mick’s house, I could see what’s going on, and the most extraordinary thing happened, the atmosphere was electric and, everybody started laughing cause the postman came along, I called it the last post [laughs]

[Laughs] Yeah you mentioned that in your article as well, so was he coming to deliver letters?

Yes, yes, just like anywhere else

Just like anywhere else

And then…I suddenly, the riot squad arrived, here, here come the riot squad

Wow

And I immediately rushed back into Claremont Road from the end and, the riot squad…I think they were based at the T A up by the Whips Cross Hospital…riot squad

Looks scary

I can’t remember his name, but he’s quite well known…you see all the protesters are, are getting up into the trees and on the Claremont tower and, and sitting on the rooves, except older people like myself who just sat on the floor

Very sensible…so was he a protester this guy that you’re saying was well known

Yes, he’s a protester, he’s, I’ve forgotten his name I’m afraid

You don’t know what he’s doing, is he recording or something, he looks like he’s…he’s holding a

I think he’s recording as well…here are some of the protesters on top of one of the houses

Oh they’re waving…lovely, so this is, this is all the day

This is on the day, everybody was making an awful noise, I just didn’t say a word, just kept quiet…this is just the general…pushing and shoving and

So what time did you arrive, do you know?

I think I got there about half past ten or so and the hit was about twelve o’clock and they closed the Central line as well I realised

Mmm…and was it, was the street easily accessible for the whole time, were people able to come and

Yes, people would come and go, yes, but there were two entrances into Claremont Road, people could come in and out, wasn’t blocked off by anybody, but the police actually came both ends, the riot squad, they, and met in the middle

And they weren’t stopping people from coming in?

No, they weren’t stopping people from coming in they could get, they could get in if you wanted to

Mmm, yeah cause there are lots of people aren’t there, it’s really crowded

All this is a bit confused, arms and legs and bodies and, you can see, this one you can see the, one of the, two of the riot squad with their helmets

Mmm…and lots of, yeah, spectators all jostling for space

Here are the protesters

A lovely one

Climbing up Claremont tower in the, overhead in the nets

So do you know what the nets were, what

I don’t know what they were made of but they were, must have been quite strong to have, to support those people

Mmm…and what does that say? Defy the criminal justice act and Claremont Road E eleven, say no to the M eleven link

Yes, that’s right

Yeah, that’s a lovely picture

The same thing the Claremont tower and some protesters in the nets that were attached to the trees

Mmm…so were these trees all demolished as well

Yes, the trees came down, they were cut down after the houses, but they were cut down, unfortunately…this is, there’s the link road is there now xxxx

Yeah

And a deep channel…then

More riot squad

Mmmhmm…and there’s a line of trees between Claremont Road and the, and the Central line and there were no houses opposite that one terrace of houses

So it was just one side

One side

And then, and then the trees and then the Central line was behind the trees

Yes, it was blocked off for traffic of course, no traffic could get along there, except bikes and, um, postmen walking

How, and how were the, how was it blocked off at either end?

With, all the furniture was there so nobody could drive along it, it was the beds and there was the wardrobes and the baths and the sculptures and

That’s amazing [laughs]…protesters being manhandled

Mmmhmm…some more of the, during the hit

Really gives an amazing sense of the place…these pictures

This is where effing Mick lived and, uh, above his house, you see, up there, the protesters

[Maureen’s husband Bill enters]

[Bill] England are all out for two hundred and eighty one Maureen

Oh right

[Bill] A hundred and forty five

Two hundred and eighty one, ok

[Bill] Yeah, a hundred and forty five in front

Mmm…another one of Claremont tower, an old one

An old one?

Um, well that was before they actually, when they were building it

Wha’, ok, yeah, so that was before the hit

Yeah, that was before the hit

Oh and there’s the…there’s the horses

Do you remember who this is Bill, she was the, she was the lady who did the cross, who, lollipop lady

[Bill] Oh yes

Can you remember her name

[Bill] Oh

Gene

Gene, Gene somebody, yep Gene, the lollipop lady

[Bill] Yes, sorry yeah

Gene, now I’m just trying to remember her surname, that was her is it?

That’s Gene yeah

Oh fantastic, I know people who would really like to talk to her…cause she nearly lost her job didn’t she?

And that’s the last one I took before the photographer was taken with one, lifted up well by four limbs and removed from Claremont Road, I just went limp and they didn’t take my camera and they left me outside

What was it like being carried away like that?

Well it was most odd but, but they didn’t, they were very gentle and I didn’t, I didn’t protest, I just lay there because if he told me, I’ve done the non-violent, um, action, direct action training N-V-D-A, you don’t resist, you just go

Mmm, and did you find it difficult to just go limp or did

No I just went limp

You just went limp

And I was silent, everybody else was screaming and screeching, the noise was terrible, but I just was silent and I said young man, y’ you know, this is wrong that I should be carried on like this and a, a middle aged lady, um they took me and left me outside and then I think it was difficult to get back, but some people stayed on until the Wednesday, and then they were all taken away, um, when, when they first came I was, also went to the café and there was a cat with four kittens, and before the hit somebody put them in a box and took them away…and the last resident of Claremont Road was effing Mick’s, fucking Mick’s cat because they’d all gone, but, and he wouldn’t have his, he was taken away, but he wouldn’t have his cat rehomed, so one of the security guards took him on, there were security guards there as well, so, one of them took on effing Mick’s cat

Aww that’s lovely, what happened to effing mick?

I don’t know, I, I haven’t heard, seen him for ages, have you heard from him Bill

[Bill] No, I haven’t no, uh, he was, uh

There was Dolly, Dolly was a lady who had lived in Claremont Road for ninety three years since she was born and she moved out a, a week or so before

Did you know her, did you

We knew her by, well yes Dolly, she…is there a, I don’t think there’s a photograph of Dolly Bill

[Bill] No, I don’t think there is

But I have…other photographs somewhere, which I can find

Are you

Sorry

No, no

Right…I have a photograph here on the computer of Dolly I think

Oh ok

We’re recording this Bill, but um

Oh yeah, we’re recording [laughs]

I might have, I can’t find that particular photograph it’s in black and white and I didn’t take it

So, just for the sake of the tape

Mmm

Bill, um, has joined us [laughs]

[Laughs] And if you had to cut this down, you’ll cut out all of our chatter won’t you

I’ll cut, yeah, cut down the tape

Is this for eastside, London eastside community

Heritage

Heritage, I’ve got the book, but as for copyright, I didn’t want them just to go to there because everybody’s used these photographs

We’ll talk about that, but it’s absolutely fine

I’ll see if I can find…I’ve got a few of these

[Bill] That was a wonderful campaign we, made a lot of friends through that and, uh

These are just some of the’, some of them

Mmm

[Bill] Ok, we ha’, at the end, we didn’t, we, but I

I don’t think they’re all there

[Bill] I think it’ll, I think it means that the department of transport are gonna think twice about anymore, um, motorways

Mmm, yeah absolutely…so were you very involved as well?

[Bill] Yeah, yeah

See if I can, oh this is what I’m looking for this, um…my article that’s, that’s the article I wrote

Yes

Yeah, it’s not the one I’m looking for, if I take a little time to find this, one I want…oh that’s Claremont the cat, we had a, we took on a cat from a friend who had been in Claremont Road and, um, she was Claremont, that’s her, um, unfortunately she died, but she’s, uh

She’s very pretty, was she a protesters cat then or was she a res’

Yes, she belonged to Jackie, oh Jackie she was one of the protesters and Jackie I’m afraid, Carpenter, she died, but she, had this cat and we took it on and it lived a very happy life

[Bill] She was a very intelligent cat

But what I’m trying to see Bill

[Bill] One of the most intelligent cats

Is a black and white photograph of the residents, I don’t know where it is

[Bill] Do you have animals?

Uh, no I don’t, I grew up with cats but, but I don’t have any at the moment, I would, I do like cats a lot though…I’m definitely a cat person, not a dog person [laughs]

[Bill] Right, well, there’s always plenty around that are looking for a home

Yeah that’s true

Where’s that one I’m looking for, oh, that’s Claremont again, I’ll see if I can find it Bill, anyway

Well don’t, yeah, don’t worry now, for now

Oh this is Jackie Carpenter whose cat we took on, that was fur’, not Claremont Road that was further up

[Laughs] That’s a nice picture…that’s a picture of, Jackie whose a woman

That’s Jackie Carpenter whose

In her

Whose cat we took on and we called Claremont

And how old is she in this picture do you think?

Oh I don’, about seventy five seventy seven

She’s a woman whose about seventy five seventy seven and she’s wearing a

Unfortunately I can’t find that picture, that black and white picture of the people in Claremont Road, Bill, I can’t see it

[Bill] I can’t remember, I can’t help you

Don’t worry about it, don’t worry

Are you, you’re concentrating on Claremont Road aren’t you cause

No, not particularly, we’re not particularly focussed any more on Claremont Road than, um, just the whole campaign

The whole campaign?

Yeah

[Bill] Jackie was very, erudite, um…she, she used to, read Latin as a hobby

Oh wow…she’s got a, for the sake of the tape, she’s got a placard round her that says criminal

Criminal yeah, do you remember that one Bill?

Question mark

I didn’t take that, I don’t know where, oh, maybe I did, I can’t remember

[Bill laughs]

She doesn’t look like a criminal [laughs]

[Bill] Well you, you wouldn’t know would you [laughs]

I s’pose not [laughs] oh, oh there’s, look, there’s another one with somebody with the same placard round his

Yes these, these I didn’t take, I don’t know where they came from

These are more black and white

They’re more black and white…the one I’m looking for is a very good one and a pity I can’t find it, it’s in this box somewhere

Mmm…oh, blimey, that looks painful

[Bill laughs]

Somebody entangled in, barbed wire on the top of a fence

Some of these are other things, but

Are these, I know you didn’t take them, but are they still M eleven

They’re still M eleven, yeah

So is that George green?

Geo’ yes, no George green, there was a, there’s another main campaign, there was a chestnut tree which became quite famous and was occupied by people and was in, in the way of the motorway and eventually it was cut down…this was the other big protest

Do you have

I’ve got photographs of that

So is that Claremont tower again?

That’s Claremont tower yeah

Yeah

These are photographs of…the chestnut tree on George green, that was, that was, um, cut down cause it was in the way of the motorway

Hmm, that’s a good one

And it was cut down

Oh wow and these are pictures of it actually, after it was cut down…and it’s still covered in, kind of, dressings and tinsel and R-I-P tree…aww

There’s numerous photographs of Filibrook Road, where there was another row of large houses that were demolished and they were also occupied…cause some people were paid compensation to leave their houses and when they left the houses, the protesters moved in

Mmmhmm…so was Fillibrook Road another, kind of, protest site was that

Yes it was, if you turn right as you come out of, out of Leytonstone station, the right hand exit and turn right, that, there were, there’s Fillibrook Road, which still is Fillibrook Road, no it isn’t it’s called something else because they knocked down, all the houses, they knocked down half the houses, the ones on the Central line, large Victorian, huge mansions, they knocked them all down that side…and they all, they were also occupied, people were carried off if they, when the riot squad arrived

And there’s effing Mick’s house there

And this was one of the houses

Motorway madness…roads are bad for the issues of, for the issues of your, hmm, I can’t read that…is this, uh, where was this, do you know where this was?

Is that one in Fillibrook Road, as you, I’ll tell you, I’ve got the A to Z here I think, I’ll show you where it was

Mmm, that would be great

Oh these letters here, I was looking for something else

So this is a picture I’m looking at on the front of the Independent magazine from the twentieth of May nineteen ninety five

Yep

Motorway madness

Do you want to borrow any of these, are you ok?

Well I, uh, I might, love to if, but we can talk about that afterwards, it would be, potentially

Well I, the other thing I could do is I could scan them and send them as a photograph

Yeah, that would be

I’ve got, I’ve got some on the screen, but not all of them

Cause, well, we have, we only have a digital archive anyway, so we, so if I were, if you, if I were to take any, it would just be a case of us scanning them, but we e’, either we could do that to save you time? Or you could do it, if you didn’t want to, kind of let them out of your sight which would be completely understandable

[Bill] We can do that can’t we Maureen

We can do it, we can s’, whatever you, if you like them just, I’ll, I’ll email them to you, I’ll scan them and email them

That would be wonderful

Actually one by one cause otherwise it takes ages and ages

[Laughs] So this is

Now this, this is, this is, this used to be Fillibrook Road here and there’s still, there’s a bit…of Fillibrook Road here

Oh yeah

That’s all that left of Fillibrook Road, the little bit and this was Fillibrook Road all the way up here to where the bridge is where that’s, well that’s where those large houses were

So, so what is now Grove Green Road used to be Fillibrook Road?

No, Grove Green Road was always there

Yeah that’s what I thought

But Fillibrook Road used to run

Oh it used to run alongside

Along Grove, it used, uh, from Grove Green Road it used to go

I see

Fillibrook Road used to go along here, and it’s now Kingswood Road

Mmmhmm

And it went up as far as there and this side where the A twelve is now, the m eleven link, this is where the large houses are, one of which is those

Ok

Mmm

And, and I, am I right in thinking that this is, that this house was called Monstoneia

Wanstonia?

M-onstonia

I think there was, no, there was one in Wanstead called Wanstonia, they had a republic of Wanstonia and there was a big house there and that was Wanstonia, they declared themselves and independent republic…I think that’s all I’ve got of those

Um, you’ve got lots of things

Well we had a newsletter called the r’, the roadbreaker…and that was, um…produced

Yeah, I’ve seen some of

[Bill] That was produced by Colin Becks

Colin Becks? Oh Colin Becks, yeah, what happened to him?

[Bill] Don’t know

He was a bit, um, he was a bit paranoia wasn’t he?

[Bill] Yeah

He thought there were…spies…spying on him

[Bill] Haven’t heard, about him for ages

Mmm

Mmm

[Bill] And, haven’t heard from Henry either

Henry, no, no I haven’t, well this is some years ago now Bill and effing Mick, haven’t heard from him…I don’t know what happened to Bundy…and Jackie died…but we still know Jennifer and the others don’t we

[Bill] Oh yeah

Mmm

So that’s amazing

Mmm

Ummm, thank you so much for showing me those pictures, can I, are you happy for us to do a kind of a more formal talky…

Ok, ok

…talky thing, talking interview, is that…

Ok, right

[laughs] I mean, when I say formal, I don’t mean really formal, I just mean… if I, I’ll ask you more questions now

Oh if you, if you if you like. I can remember the date now it was 1994, wasn’t it?

[Bill] I’ll move out ‘cos I won’t get a word in edgeways

[laughs] Well it’s entirely up to you, you’re welcome to stay but… if you [laughs]… go and watch the cricket, that’s absolutely fine [laughs]

Right ok, and if I find that I’ve a photograph, I’ll email it to you because it’s somewhere around, it’s a black and white one giving the residents of Claremont Road, which I didn’t take

Fantastic…Ok, so we’ve already done your name and your date of birth, so that’s brilliant, so we can we, can we just start off, can you just start off by telling me a little bit, telling me where you were born?

Oh, I was born in Hampshire, near Basingstoke and we moved around quite a bit when I was a kid

Umm, why did you move around?

Well my father had a reserved occupation managing farms, it was during the war

Ahhh

So we moved to four or five places, before I was five

Oh wow, all around the same…

Hampshire… and… Devonshire, North and South Hampshire and Devonshire we lived

So did you have strong memories of growing up on farms?

I xxxx the farms were… one of the farms, I only remember one of the farms, because I was too young, but we lived in a place called [Burghclere?] and my father used to walk to work every morning, and that’s the place I.. always thought of as home because we moved around such a lot I always think that was home, and then we moved to London

How old…

Then we moved to Kent, and then we moved to London, when I was 16 and then we stayed in London

And, umm was your mum… was your mother around as well?

Yes, yes she as around

And what was she doing?

Nothing

[laughs]

She did nothing my mother, she was... she did, she hadn’t worked since she was married, she didn’t do any housework, she managed sometimes to pay people to do for her. My mother did nothing, except grumble about her health

Was she unwell?

Not very unwell, but she was k… the neighbours called her the creaking gate, she grumbled about her health morning, noon and night

Wow…[laughs]

[Laughs]

The creaking gate

Hmmm

Did you call her that as well? [laughs]

No, I just I…

Ummm… and so you were 16 when you moved to…

Earl’s Court

Earl’s Court?

West London

And what are your… can you tell me any early memories you’ve got of, of Earl’s Court?

I loved it, interesting vibrant place to be

Ermm… can you tell me anymore, can you, what can you remember, do you have any particular memories of the place?

Umm, we lived in a small, in a small road, Wallgrave Road, and it was a… one of these Victorian houses which was done up, and then I left home and did other things

What did you do?

I was a, first of all a legal secretary, and… then I went to North Africa for a year to Tripoli to be an au pair with an army family, because, I thought I’d do something different, and err.. I thought it sounded interesting. But I soon realised that the army life was not for me, people thought I’d marry a young officer but I didn’t like the army, I decided immediately that was erm… I was quite glad when that came to an end

And what did you not like about the army?

It was too rigid, too ordinary, everybody was doing the same thing. Uhhh, all the furniture was the same, and the houses, it was… all… twits

All twits? [laughs] Umm, was it very different from the kind of environment that you’d grown up in?

Yes, yes it was much closer, so I left that and then I became an air hostess. First with a small cross channel line and then with British United Airways, for nine years, which became… which was Freddie Laker’s independent line. When I gave that up, when I first married I became a legal secretary and then a medical secretary at the London Hospital and medical college for many years. And then I, overlapping with that I became a yoga teacher, which I still teach yoga these days, not privately, I taught at the Mary Ward Centre in Russell Square for 19 years… and now I just teach a few private people and I volunteer teaching disabled people

And what kind of yoga do you teach?

Errr… sort of mixture of all sorts, it’s not iyengar, not the Madonna sort of yoga, it’s taught by the British School of yoga, it’s influenced by the [sivananda?] school of yoga but it’s a bit of everything

Hmmm

Mmm

Fantastic

Mmm

Excellent, umm, what, when did you get married?

Bill and I got married in 1984, but I married my first husband in 19… 74

And can you remember…

And that’s how we moved this side of London because he had a business selling… he took over a business from a friend selling everything but the meat for the butcher, butcher sundries, which is funny because I’m vegetarian, and we moved into South Woodford, and when the marriage broke up I could afford to by a flat in Leyton, but not in South Woodford, and I… or further into town so it’s just how I ended up this side of London, in 1981

So you weren’t, so when you were first married you, you had your house together in…

South Woodford

…in South Woodford.Right ok. Can you, can you tell me about the day of your marriage?

What to my fir..second husband?

No to your first husband

Oh, we were living in St James’ Park, we went to the registry office umm… just during the day it was very low key

Mmm. And what was his name?

Tony

Tony?

Mmm

Excellent, umm… and then the broke up and you came to Leyton?

Yess, mmm

And wha… did you move to this house?

No I moved in, I was in a flat in Newport Road, two roads away, upstairs flat which I bought with, after the break-up of our marriage. And then Bill lived, umm, not too far away and we met up because, through the CND movement

Hmmm, so what what were you, what was your involvement with the CND movement?

I umm, secretary, membership secretary, I also went to Greenham Common for weekends, and stayed there, which was very interesting. I cut holes in the fence, which was very interesting. I didn’t stay there all the time, but I just, a group of us used to go down for the weekend

And do you have lots of memorabilia from that, from that as well?

I haven’t got xxxx photographs, I was removed from there as well [laughs]

So what errr… inspired your interest in participating in politics?

Well…

How did you get involved in activism?

I was brought up in a Tory household and then when I realised, and looked around me I became Labour. Umm… and I’ve always been interested… now, since Tony Blair and the invasion of Iraq I’ve joined the Green Party, because I was fed up with… Labour being little Tories, so now I’m for the Green Party

So was it fairly straight forward for you to become involved in doing, kind of, non-violent direct action?

Yes, oh, yes

It just felt like a…

Mmm

…like a obvious thing to do?

Obvious thing to do

And was the, your involvement with the M11 the first time you’d… no, because Greenham Common

No because I’d been at Greenham Common, Greenham Common, M11, mmm

So GreenhamCommon, was Greenham Common your first…

Yes, Greenham Common, mmm

...involvement with, with kind of activism

That must have been in ’81, a long time ago

Mmmm… and did you make lots of, did you have lots of friends there?

I had a few friends who lived in Wanstead, we used to go down as, in a camping van and spend the night, spend the weekend… and I taught yoga there as well… to the women

To the women?

Mmm

Ooh. Excellent.Mmm, and how, how did you first hear about the…umm the proposed M11 road?

I can’t remember, it was in the air as it were, and the first time I was aware of Claremont Road was when I came back from the swimming pool and I saw, I don’t… it had been there and we realised and it was how… many sculptures and flowers and decorations there were, and then it all fell into place, and we used to go to meetings every so often… to plan out actions

And where were the meetings held?

They were in a church hall in Leyton… Methodist church hall

And who, who attended them?

Jacky, Bill, myself, umm…. [Bundy?]… Henry, Henry Cox, Effing never did ‘cos he wasn’t organised, and a few people

So, umm, the people that you’ve mentioned, are they mostly local residents, who became involved in the, in the protest?

Mostly, mostly residents, local residents, but a lot of people came and visited Claremont Road because it became quite famous, as well as the tree in Wanstead, that they cut down, that became famous, just like Greenham Common was famous, we got visitors from all over the world at Greenham Common and at the tree in Wanstead

And did you spend a lot of time at the tree in Wanstead?

Ummm, a bit of time, not as much as Claremont Road but yes, I went there

And what do you remember about the tree?

I remember a beautiful chestnut tree… surrounded by boards which people pulled down, errr, it was a lovely tree and they cut it down, and people were living in it, and you could post letters to the tree

Did you ever post any letters?

Yes we did, we posted letters to the tree

[Laughs] Can you remember what you, what you wrote?

I can’t remember what I wrote

No?

I remember I was nearly arrested once because I was put… I was painting on the… one of the boards round the tree ‘No more CO’, carbon monoxide, I said wait a moment, he said if you could continue that and I’m going to arrest you, and I said listen, this is carbon… I’m doing carbon dioxide, CO2, not carbon monoxide and he said alright just finish what you’re drawing [laughs]

[laughs] that was very kind of him

[laughs]

Umm, and were you there the day that they pushed the boards down?

Yes, I was there the day they pushed the doors down, but I wasn’t there the day they cut the tree down xxxx

Why were you not there?

I can’t remember, I was just… maybe teaching up in town

Mmm, teaching yoga?

Yes, mmm. Well, maybe I was at work, I think I was at the medical college in those… either teaching yoga in town, yep sorry. I was teaching yoga, I used to teach at the Mary Ward Centre, as I said, and it xxxx daytime job, Tuesday and Wednesday I taught in the daytime

Mmm, excellent. And so then after the tree was cut down then, then the sort of the main focus of the protest moved to Claremont Road, is that right?

I think it was after Claremont Road

Oh really?

Yeah, I think it was afterwards, yep

So, errm, so your first memory of Claremont Road was on your way back from the swimming pool?

That’s, well I was there and we realised it was there and you could go along and say hello to people but I realised… it’d exploded into all this lovely sculptures and blossoms and… and that was when I was really aware of it, and we started going to the meetings

Ok, and aside from local residents were there… because there were lots of protesters who had, who.. who moved in and squatted…

A lot xxxx, the houses were emptied of their residents, except for Dolly who had been there for 93 years… and if I can find that photograph I’ll send it to you, and the squatters moved in, all along the proposed link road, in Fillebrook Road as well, and in Wanstead and they occupied the houses

And did they attend the same meetings that you were attending?

Some did. Sometimes they tried to get into the houses and destroy them by taking out the bathrooms and the stairwells

Why did they do that?

Not the protesters, the authorities

The authorities, I see

And some houses were left empty and guards, some security guards, mostly from West Africa moved in

Moved, moved in to live? Or to guard?

To xxxx to guard and xxxx. If a house was emptied… umm, they moved in

And then, then they couldn’t be reclaimed by the…

Mm, yeah. There was also Colville Road, and that was the next one on from Claremont Road, and that was also, half of that was demolished

And half of it still exists? Can we look again on the map?[laughs]

Yep, where’s the map? Here we are… Colville Road.. hm hmm hmm… [silence]…

[Sounds of pages being turned]

xxxx road?... [sound of more pages being turned]… you can barely see it, here we are, Colville Road, it’s on the corner here, Colville Road, can you see there?

Oh yeah, so that’s… let me just get it in context…

That was Colville Road there

So it’s just off Grove Green Road as well

Just off Grove Green Road, and that had houses both sides, and now it has houses just one side… so Colville Road was also a scene of protest and then Claremont Road just followed on towards Leytonstone station towards Colville Road

So, oh hang on I’ve lost it again now… oh there, so there’s Colville Road, so… so Claremont Road was along here?

Yeah, along here yes. There still is a teeny bit left with one or two houses

And how far up did it go?

As far as the bridge… Cathall Road, this is the swimming baths you see and you used… we went along there

Ok, so it ran between Colville Road and Cathall Road

Yep, yeah

Ok excellent, ah that’s good. I haven’t quite, there’s lots of this that I haven’t quite figured out yet… Hmm.

Have you come from far then?

Hackney [laughs]

Where?

Hackney

Where’s that? Oh, quite a long way, hmm?

Well not too, yeah… on the other side of the marshes. Ummm….

Oh Hackney!

Hackney

Oh that’s not far yeah

No [laughs]

[Sound of movements] I’ll just find… these photographs. Hmm hm hm. Oh no that’s different photographs… never mind I can’t find that one, but I will…

No don’t worry, that’s absolutely fine, ummm…

Not what…

So the meetings, can you remember any of the actions that you planned in the meetings?

We made, we planned to blockade the… blockade the err, we blockade the two shops, there was… there were two shops called W. S. Atkins, the people who were promoting the road to the public and we made sure that they were shut, sometimes we barricaded them

And how did they promote the road, what did they do?

They were promoting it as a good thing, with billboards and explanations

So they were almost like, kind of, like show homes

They were show, they were show, show rooms, mmm

Rooms

There was one in Wanstead and there was one in… in Leytonstone and umm… there was quite a lot of action taken at those places

Such as?

Blockading, umm somebody… jammed up the letterboxes, and oh… somebody broke some windows, err… they were, physically blockading it so no one could get in or out

So was there a fairly continuous presence there?

Continuous presence up there, always somebody out there

With banners?

With banners, yep. With banners, photo… cameras

And did you have, like, leaflets?

Yes, leaflets xxxx

That you handed out to people. So do you think there was a lot of public support for umm… for the protest or was…

I think there was, at the time

Hmmm

Mmm

Mmmm… and… can you remember any other actions you did apart from blockading the showrooms?

Umm, sometimes… people put things through letterboxes that weren’t very nice [laughs], no we more or less… we’re recorded, we blockaded most of the time and… just kept an eye on things

And the relationship between the residents and the local umm… and the activists, the squatters, we you, aside from the meetings we you doing, we you kind of doing the same protest work, or did you see yourselves as kind of separate?

No, we were doing the same protest rote. Mmm

Mmmm

And most people didn’t just turn their back, and didn’t worry too much

Hmm

But they were a lovely ss.. terrace of houses and it was so nice and peaceful there, with very little traffic before… it became a centre for protest, because it was just.. there was one, there was the central line and a row of trees, and it was a lovely quiet places and people had parties there, there was… a canteen

Before it was a protest site?

When it became a protest site

When it became a protest site

Before then it was a just a a row of very quiet houses

Mm, do you have memories of it before it became a protest site?

Just vague when I moved into the area and was exploring

Mmm, so what was your kind of early impression of the area when you moved here?

Very friendly… when I lived in South Woodford, the area was, it’s not very friendly but as soon as I moved into Leyton and Leytonstone people mix them up… very friendly area, made friends very soon

Mmm… and so just tell me again how long you’ve been in the area, did you tell me the year?

I moved into a, I left South Woodford and moved to Leyton in 1981

That’s right

Bill and I met in 1983, he moved into my flat in Leyton and we married in 1984 and we moved here in 1991… people mix up Leyton and Leytonstone but their all jumble up together, like a jigsaw

So did, so you lived in both?

I lived in both

Yeah and you moved here in 1994, and can you remember the day that, I mean I’m sure you can remember the day that you married Bill but can you tell…

[both talking at once]Oh yes

…me a little bit about that?

It was umm lovely we had a… lovely reception and we umm we went to the registry office in Walthamstow… and then our reception was at the nurse’s home at the London hospital… so the first reception was a dinner, a late lunch in an Italian restaurant in Leytonstone and then that weekend we had a big party and we used the nurse’s home at the London hospital

And were you working there at the time?

I was working at the medical college

Ahh ok

As a medical secretary

Mmm, lovely and did lots of people come?

Ooh loads I can’t remember how many, loads of people came, it was good, really good

And that was in, that was in eighty…

‘84

…four

Mmm

Ok so that was, that was pre Claremont…

Yes

Long, long pre Claremont Road, and was Bill involved in Claremont Road as well?

Yes he was, yep mmm

And how, what was his involvement?

Well he just came and then… part of the protest

And you mentioned earlier that you’d had some direct act… non violent direct action training…. xxxx

Yes that was arranged by CND

Can you remember, can you remember anything about it?

As far as I remember they just told us not to xxxx not to swear, not to be rude, to go limp if you were carried away, to just tell people politely what you were protesting about, and umm don’t take it personally… and don’t try and get in a tizz if somebody you love if somebody you love is being handled, just take it slowly and carefully

And was there, were there instructions on what to say to police if you were arrested and that kind of thing?

Just say… not very much just keep quiet, accept that you’re a protester

And were you ever arrested?

No I was never arrested, neither at Greenham nor [laughs] anywhere else

Lucky escape

I was removed but I was never, I was never arrested

Excellent, umm and so we’ve talked about the, the day that the, do you remember ummm… coming back to Claremont after it, were you there when the demolition was happening?

No because nobody, then they did close it off. The demolition happened in, on, on Wednesday I think.. Monday is the hit, if you’ve seen those photographs then they closed it off both ends and they had to remove the protesters from the Claremont Tower and from the nets above Claremont Road, from the superstructure above Effing Mick’s house and all the way and they cleared them all away be Wednesday

And how did they…

And by Wednesday, then the security guards moved in from West Africa I think they were and they soon… then the road was cleared off and they demolished the houses

And how did they remove the protesters, what was the process that they went through?

Errr they, some were chained to the railings, some were chained up on to, on to the, they had to cut the chains get people on, found them on ladders to carry them down… and… moved them eventually but it took a long time

And were people injured?

I don’t think anybody was badly hurt, nobody was ended up in hospital and I don’t think many people were arrested, then cut them away from the roofs they went up the roofs they got them down… specialist forces had to go up Claremont Tower to remove the protesters from the top and that was Wednesday, from Monday to Wednesday they were there

And where did, where were they taken once they were brought down?

I don’t know I think they were just let go

And they mostly just left without, they didn’t… kind of try to come back?

I don’t think they could, it was impossible then it was blocked off, both ends of Claremont Road, you couldn’t get back, there was great big barricades

And so do you remember coming, do you remember seeing the area for the first time after the houses had been...

[both talking at once]Yes

…demolished?

It was very very desolate, very very, in fact I think the houses stayed up for a few months, as far as I remember, you couldn’t get near there and as I say one of the security males took on Effing Mick’s cat, that was Friday. The last resident of Claremont Road was Effing Mick’s orange cat

[laughs] Who was taken on by a security guard?

Yes, mmm

A West African security guard?

A West Af… errr, I don’t know who it was, but anyway it was taken on, I’d heard he’d been taken on by a security guard, and he was alright

That’s very sweet. And did you have, aside from being carried away and going limp, did you have much… erm either contact with police or security guards?

Not at all, no no no

You managed to avoid them more or less

Yes, I didn’t have much contact with them again, no, no reason to

Hmm… erm… so yeah, so it was… how, how was the road boarded off?

It was, as far as I remember it was boarded up with concrete slabs, you couldn’t get in, you couldn’t. They must have been able to get in, mustn’t they? I can’t remember how they blocked off but they had, it was all… blocked off both ends. People could obviously get in and out, the security people but that was…

But it seemed particularly impenetrable to anybody else, yeah?

Mmm, mmm

Ok and then they came and demolished…

Then they came and demolished all the houses

And you didn’t see that happening?

I… think I saw some of happening yup

How did you feel?

I felt really sad, it was very… bleak and desolate

Mmm

‘Cos I don’t think some of the houses came down until January because I went to pick my mother up, umm, to spend Christmas with us, after my father died and I hired a car to get her over London and I showed her where Claremont Road was and there was still some houses standing and that was, must have been umm… December ninety… four

And so do you remember umm… telling, telling your mum, your mother about…

Oh yes, she she knew, she knew what it was about

What was her position, what did she think, as a Tory?

She thought it was a bit fruitless

So you didn’t see eye to eye politically?

Not politically, no no, hmmm

And do you remember the building of the road?

Yes, I remember the building of the road it was eventually built, over several years and it, well it’s now a sort of tunnel… er not in a tunnel, they wouldn’t do cut and cover which means that they could have cut it up and covered it up and not demolished the houses, it’s in a sort of ditch, a big err… channel now, about ten metres deep

Mmmm

And I remember how I saw when it was, when they cut down there was a layer of sand… mmm interesting to see, now it’s all…

Underneath the top soil?

Yes now it’s all, it’s sealed now and it’s err just the… M11 link road, or the A12 they call it

Yeah

Mmm

Umm, and did it, did it cause a lot of disruption while it was being built?

It did yes, it was very noisy

Noisy?

Noisy

And umm… more traffic or were there kind of traffic jams and things around?

Well actually it has eased the traffic jams, Grove Green Road which is, you can see along, it used to be chock-a-block full, it has relieved the traffic jams

And do you use it much now to get out of London?

I don’t have a car, but I’ve been on it in… cars, obviously… on buses and coaches mmm

Mmm. So what’s your feeling about it now, do you think it was a good thing that it was built or a bad thing?

I think it was a bad thing, it could have easily ummm put, made a tunnel of it, they destroyed beautiful houses, it wasn’t necessary just to get people into London a bit quicker

Hmmm. And do you think it’s had any, what kind of effect do you think it’s had on the local community?Any?

Not these days, but what it has done, people have thought twice… about umm building motorway extensions, because what I haven’t told you is that I was also involved a few years later at Newbury bypass… and there were a lot of protest there

And were you involved in those?

I was involved in that, I went down for weekends, I went down with a group of people. We used to hire a coach early morning and go down there

And was that a relatively similar experience, or was that quite different?

It was… it was different, it was more rural… more more permanent err… there were loads of tents instead of houses

But was it similar people?

Similar people, similar people in Newbury and it was near where I used to live in Burghclere so I was quite interested

And since, since that have you remained politically active?

Yes, I’m politically active with the Greens now… I go on climate change demonstrations

Mmm… and what do you think xxxx…. Have you got any thoughts on the kind of development of the environmental activism since then, does it seem like a kind of linked up…

[both talking at once]Yes it seems to, there are still err….

…process? Does it, do they all seem to relate to each other?

There still are protests going on but I think the… the powers that be have thought twice about, about doing these motorway extensions because of the, so many protests and the costs of protests so I think there has been some success there

Mmm. Were you involved at all in, in umm any kind of anti GM?

No I haven’t

No? Or… um, or climate, climate activism, any kind of climate activism?

I go to the climate march

Mmm

Which I’m not, I’m not particularly active there, I just go along

Yeah

Mmm

Excellent, umm… I think maybe I have run out of questions… but… I’m sure that there’s, I’m sure that there’s things that I haven’t asked you about, so is there anything that you thought that I would, that we’d cover that we haven’t really?

I think you have actually covered almost what’s happened in the last few years

Mmm

Except umm… I was always treated with a role of respect by the security people, praps because I was a bit older

So yeah, you said that they were West Africans, do you know…

[Both speaking at once] These was a, no the people who actually removed us were the riot squad, all English Brits people with the helmets, the people that actually moved in to protect, to live in the houses were a lot of West African people who, I think they just lived in the houses, they probably got paid six pence a week and, just to live there

And did you ever talk to any of them?

Occasionally, they didn’t speak much good English

Mmm, and did you get the sense that they were… err… kind of supportive or…?

I didn’t, I think they just wanted to get into the country and somewhere to live

Yeah, sure so it was good for them in that sense?

It was good for them in that sense

That the pro…

That they were in the UK and they had some sort of job to do

So they probably wanted to extend the protest for as long as possible

Probably, probably, mmm

Yeah, ok, anything else that I…

No I think that’s all, and you’ve got the pho… now what shall we do about these photographs, do you want to xxxx [sound of items being moved]

Oh, can I, actually there were a couple of other questions

Oh yeah

I wanted to ask you about the ghost house which you mentioned in your article, and I… do y…

[both speaking at once] There was a ghost house and

Do you know what that…

They, they had it opened for a weekend I think and it was quite fun, it made sort of

What was it?

Well there were sort of screechy things and owls hooting and and… spiders webs and [laughs]

Oh so it was a bit like a kind of, almost like a fairground ghost house?

Yes, it was like a fairground ghost house yes, it wasn’t haunted, it was just

[laughs]

[laughs] quite fun

Ok excellent and that was on Claremont?

That was on Claremont Road yes, ghost house, they had it open specially for a weekend and it was great fun

So was it, it was just one weekend?

I… two or three weekends I think

And did you… ‘cos they had regular street parties didn’t they?

They had street parties, I was just going to mention, they had streets parties. So you went along and I… the canteens I gave them, when I had too many apples for instance, from my apple tree, I’d bring them along and they were very grateful

That’s nice [laughs]. Umm… and I, also in your article you mentioned an open university project and I just wanted to ask you about that

I did an OU degree and one of the years was the environment course and we had to do a project and my project was the, was the M11 link road and I had to put both sides of the case of course, so umm… I stepped into the lion’s den and when to W S Atkins and interviewed Bob Brazier there to ask what the plans were, what was going to happen next, how were they going to deal with the protesters, and ummm… I told that to the… to the… meetings against the M11, but in my project I had to put both sides of the story that there had been traffic jams and I took photographs of the traffic jams as well

And who did you say you interviewed, Bob Brazier?

Bob Brazier was the… person who ran W S Atkins which was the government agency that has two shops which were… shall we say umm… well we won’t [coughs and laughs]

[laughs]

A lot of protests went along

Mmm

And there was one day ummm… I think he had a sense of humour because there was one day we decided, it was April Fool’s I think day, and we went along and… xxxx this shop is for sale at knocked down prices and we put all these notices on the door and I think he was quite amused at that

And what was it like talking to him when you interview him?

He was quite, he was quite a reasonable person, he had his fu.. he had his point of view to put forward

And what was his point of view?

That the road should be built

Because…

He had to umm… he was supposed to put forward the government point of view, about the desirability of relieving traffic jams and to have a faster road link in to London

And did he know where your sympathies lay?

Not at that stage, no he didn’t know, he was just a, I was just posing as I was, an open university student asking what’s going to happen, how is he going to deal with protesters… which of course I took straight back to the meeting

And were the protesters pleased?

They were quite please yeah

Did you interview them as well?

The protesters? No I didn’t, no no, I was with them, a part of the protesters, we had meetings every so often

No I just wondered if for you degree you kind of

No, umm

What was your degree, what was the degree in?

Environment, I’ve got a BSc, I’ve got envirxxxx, I’ve got environmental sciences

Ok

I did that, that was several years ago

Excellent

Mmm

Ummm…mmmm… the cat and the kittens I wanted to ask you about, but you’ve talked about that… oh I also just, err in your email you said that it… it won’t be the first time that you’ve been interviewed, so I just wondered if umm, who had interviewed you before

Errr, I haven’t actually, let me see have I been interviewed umm probably I’ve been interviewed or I’ve been talked about it

Mmm

I’ve been talking to people about it, I haven’t been, not interviewed at this sta, at this depth anyway. I have talked about it, when I had the photographs up on a overhead projector

Where was that?

In a t… in… the church hall at Leytonstone

Ah

And at the library at Leytonstone as well

It was just a kind of exhibition?

Yes, an exhibition, it’s been in two or three exhibitions, and other people have used them, the photographs, and some have actually paid me for them, which is nice

Mmm

It’s going in a book about the M11 protests

Oh, who’s doing that?

Umm… [sound of movements] I’ll have a look and see if I can find it… aaaagh… [sound of tapping at a keyboard]… that’s Claremont, our cat

[laughs] that’s a lovely cat, good name

Mmm… if I could find… [sound of a computer mouse clicking]… what would you like me to do, would you like me to send you some of those, scan and send you some of those photos?

I would love you to, yes

I’ve got your email address so it’ll take a little bit of time

That’s fine

I’ve got some on the computer but not all of them… [sound of computer mouse clicking]… I need to wait until it, it receives all this junk, 17 bloody emails…

[laughs]

…as soon as it’s clear I can go straight to… [silence]…[more clicking and tapping]…

Ohhhh, Paul Hawkins

Yeah

He’s the person who’s, who’s the, who’s book… ahhh, yes

I think he’s using some of my images

Ok

Do you know him? Xxxx

I errmm… I haven’t met him but I’ve been in contact with him, yeah, ok

Yes he used some of my images, err… yes earlier this year

Excellent

[Sound of mouse clicking]… yes, that’s, they’ve been used, they have been used in, earlier this year

Excellent

And the rest are yours I think, yeah

Mmm…

[sound of mouse clicking]

Yes I’ve, I’m trying to meet Paul but I don’t think he lives in London so it’s slightly difficult. Mmm…

Right

Ok, shall I…

Now what about this copyright thing, are you… I’ve got this… form

Shall I turn this off, shall I stop this now?

Yes, yes I think so, we’re…

Ok, thank you

Now you’ve seen the photographs, which have disappeared… here they are

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Maureen Measure

Project: Voices of Leytonstonia

Date of interview: 30^th July 2015

Language: English

Venue: 90 Richmond Road, Leytonstone, E11 4BU

Name of interviewer: Polly Rodgers

Length of interview: 68:46

Transcribed by: Kirsty Parsons & Miriam Hopkinson

Archive Ref: 2015_esch_VoLe_03

Archive Reference: 2015_esch_VoLe_04

Archive Reference: 2015_esch_VoLe_04

Now I’m starting again…so, to begin with can you please tell me your full name

It’s Rani Anne Heinson

And can you spell it, for me?

R-A-N-I, A double N-E, H-E-I-N-S-O-N

Brilliant thank you, and can you tell me the year that you were born?

Nineteen fifty two

Excellent, thank you very much. Um, so, to start with, can you, tell me where you were born?

I was born, um, in Highgate…and, um, my parents lived in Paddington…and, um, we stayed there a few years, as far as I know and then we moved to the Bethnal Green Mile End area, then when I was three my parents split up and so then I lived with my mother but, um, when I was five years old, um, I didn’t live with my mother any more, uh, because she wasn’t really capable of looking after me, so I went into a children’s home and I stayed in the home until I was seventeen and then I left and, sort of, made my way in the world

Wow. Can you tell me a little bit about your parents?

Uh, my father, um, was from Bangladesh my mother was from London, she was Jewish and he was Muslim…and, um…my father, I’ve learnt since but he was, um, a restaurant waiter when I was a baby, but um, a few years ago I did my ancestry, and I found that he’d had another family after, me, ‘cause I hadn’t seen him since the age of three so I didn’t know what happened to him. Anyway, so I found this, um, other family, and he, as well was living in Tooting, but the only reason that I found him, ‘cause actually he had died, so I found his death certificate and from his death certificate I found, this other family, as I say, so I’ve got four half siblings, all younger than me, and one of them, um, I’m quite close to now…and, uh, my mother, she died, um, about ten years ago at seventy five and, um, he, my father died when he was fifty seven, so fairly young, of a heart attack, um, I can’t remember the condition that my mother died of because I was somewhat, um, estranged from her by that time, because of what…the type of relationship I’d had with her over the years

Did you have relationship with her?

Uh, of sorts, but then, you know, when you’re a kid you always think that your mother is the greatest person on earth, but I soon realised that she wasn’t, so then it turned from love to hate…and then I never really liked her again after the age of about, seventeen, eighteen…I would say, we did have moments of togetherness, but I always used to call her by her first name which was Pamela, and once she said to me, why do you call me Pamela? Why don’t you call me mum?, so I said, well you’ve never really been a mother so I’m calling you Pamela

How did she react to that?

She just had to accept it because I wasn’t gonna call her mum, and, um, when we were estranged I…I think you have to go cold on somebody ‘cause otherwise you’re gonna be dragged into, um, all sorts of different emotions with that person, which I didn’t want, I wanted to get on with my life and I didn’t want to have to think about her, and she was under the care of Westminster Council, she actually live, um…in the West End, she had, uh, sheltered accommodation there and, um, my mother always landed on her feet so I wasn’t worried about her, you know, she was one of life’s, uh, what shall we say, takers, not a giver, she always landed on her feet and she had this, um, sheltered, uh, apartment, as I say, near Marble Arch and, um…Westminster Council rang me and said, you know, she’s living there and what do you want to do about it, I said I don’t want to do anything about it, I said she can stay living there and, um, I only want you to call me again when she’s dead

So when

And so, and so they did [laughs]…and I felt really strange when they did do that but, I thought, well this is the path that I’ve taken and, you know

How much later was that?

After

So when you spoke to them and said, I don’t want you to call me again until she’s dead how, how, how long

That was about

Was it until she actually

That was about four or five years I think…yeah, so…yeah, it sounds harsh but, you know, I’d had enough of her by then and, as I say emotionally you’ve just got to cut somebody out of your life and

Did she, did she work?

No she never worked…that’s what I say, in those days, they used to have long term mental institutions and you could basically walk up to the door and say, I’m not very well, I want to come and stay and they’d take you in, you didn’t have to go through several doctors like you do today if you’re lucky and be, sectioned…you just had to cause a bit of a commotion and in you went, so there was the famous hospital in Surrey called Cane Hill Hospital and my mother would often take herself off there, you know, in between doing whatever else she was doing and, uh, suddenly she’d be a resident there, you know, and we’re talking years, not months…so that was her life…but you could do that then, you couldn’t do it now

And do you have early memories of her?

Yeah I have early memories of her because, um, not very good ones, I won’t go into those memories because, uh, they’re not very good memories, but I can remember when I was in the children’s home and, I was in a small home of about seven kids, it was like a little family home and, um, I can remember…that was when I still loved my mother, you know, and if they said, oh your mum’s coming to visit you this week, you’d all sit on the wall waiting for that person’s parents to turn up, you know, and, um, when they did…you wanted all the other children to go away ‘cause it was your, your parent [laughs] but we all used to wait in anticipation and, uh, that’s how it carried on until I knew better…but she was always letting me down, she said that she’d come over and then she wouldn’t come and, so there was always that…so it was after years of being let down with her really and…you know…but, early memories, I can, the sort of memories I can remember, I’ll just give you one example, um, because we lived around the Mile End area, um, in various different places dependent on, you know, what boyfriend she had, etc, etc, um, there used to be a children’s home on the Commercial Road, um, near Mile End and, uh, when she couldn’t look after me, or when she didn’t want to look after me, she’d march me up to the doors…and just say, oh you, you have to take her I, I can’t look after her, I can remember that vividly…and then, one time she even, like left me there, knocked on the door and walked off and I was just like, stood there, you know, I can remember that

Can you remember how that felt?

I was just used to it…I think when you’re a kid you, you get used to things, you know

Yeah. How old were you?

I was under five…under five years old, when, when I was five years old, the council said that’s enough, we’re not having this anymore, she’s going into permanent care and that’s when I went into permanent care, went to the children’s home

And where was the children’s home?

The children’s home was, uh, in a place called Noak Hill which was near Romford…and that’s where I lived ‘til I was seventeen

And what was life like there?

Uh, it was ok, I had a good experience, you know, you hear about a lot of children in care homes that have bad experiences, I had, uh, a fairly good experience, we, had an aunty there, aunty Seymour her name was and, um…she, she was a very good house mother, quite protective of us and, um…there was six other children there, three of them were siblings, and, and the other, um, three were individuals, so we all stayed with each other for most of those years really, that I was there

And are you still in contact with them?

I’m not…no I lost contact with them…that’s um…so yeah, I had a good experience and

And what was the house like?

It was, um, like a big council house, and I can remember after so many years we had an extension built on, so it’s a very big house, but it was in a road full of residential houses, but they were all big houses…so, those, that, that was in the days when, you know, council housing you could get fairly easily and, um

And was aunty Seymour the only adult there?

She was, yeah, she, um…used to have a cook and a cleaner, that helped her, I don’t remember any of their names, but there were various people that came in and the shopping I remember was always delivered…in boxes and we used to help unpack it…and, um, it by the LCC which was London County Council, which came before the GLC which was the Greater London Council and you went out of care when you were eighteen, which I, um, it’s still the case now I think and, um, then you were on your own basically, but I decided at seventeen I’d had enough and I was going and she, I remember she didn’t want me to go and said, you know, what, why’re you going now?, so I said because I want to and I don’t want to live here anymore and, I went to get a bedsit in Ilford actually, near Valentine’s Park and, um, I had a room with a little one plate, um, hot plate and I had to share the bathroom and toilet in the house and it was three guineas a week

Wow

Yeah

And why did you want to leave?

I wanted to start my life I think…and I’d been working since I was fifteen by then…I went to work in a bank, the Midland Bank, which is now the HSBC and I wanted to be a cashier, I can remember and, um, in those days you had to wait until you were eighteen to be a cashier, so, being only fifteen, they put me in what was called the clearing house, uh, which was sorting out all the cheques and, um, I worked at Tower Hill, opposite the Tower, but, um, after a year of working there I decided, that I didn’t really want to stay another couple of years and wait to be a cashier, so I went to be a Girl Friday, which is what they were called then [laughs] somebody that does this that and the other in an office, you know, a bit of this and a bit of that, have you ever heard of a Girl Friday?

I have, but I didn’t know, what it was

Yeah, well a Girl Friday is somebody who makes the tea, can do the photocopying or do the typing, whatever, I never had to make the tea I have to say that, but I always remember, um, what made me laugh, um, I worked with a girl once called Corbinda, an Asian girl, this is much later when I was like a senior secretary and, um, she said, oh look at this job I here, Girl Friday, she said I’m gonna apply for that, only working on Fridays, so I said it doesn’t mean that Corbinda, Girl Friday [laughs]

[Laughs] Why were they called Girl, Girl Friday?

I think it’s because, um…was it something to do with, uh, Robinson Crusoe? I don’t know, you know…I don’t know why it was called Girl Friday, but it was

Mmm. Yeah

That’s what I was

Maybe that is a, yeah, that does ring bells actually, Boy Friday

Yeah, so, um, I think, um, it was something to do with that, but I’ve never actually looked it up to tell you the truth, but it’s not just working on a Friday, I can tell you that much. So this job, I was working for an insurance brokers, um, in Bevis marks, near Liverpool Street and, um…that was a really good job, I was Girl Friday, and in those days nothing was computerised, obviously, no computers it was all typewriters and blah blah and, uh, I used to have to sometimes type the insurance policies and they were on, a piece of proper, um, legal paper which had a five shilling stamp on it and you wasn’t allowed to make a mistake, typing, and I never did

[Laughs] Phew

So that, taught me to type, really, I’ve learnt to type at school but, then I was really typing, ‘cause I didn’t type at all when I was at the bank and, um…yeah, so, that was that

And what were, what were the people that you were working with like?

They were very nice, um, a mixed group of manly men I think, on the, um, clerical staff and all of the, um, secretaries, all the younger set, I used to have a couple of friends there and, um, we were all young and, um, we used to go for lunch every day, there used to be a place around the corner it was called, um, The Hot Potato and we normally used to go in there

Where was that?

That’s opposite Liverpool Street station on Bishopsgate and you could get a hot potato with a filling and a drink for about a shilling and we used to get luncheon vouchers then and, um, I think we used to get a shilling a day luncheon vouchers, so we only had to put, I had a like, couple of pence if we had something else, that’s what we normally had and, uh, nothing

How old were you at that point?

I was, um, I think I was about seventeen or eighteen? Yeah, ‘cause I’d been at the bank for a year and then I decided to leave and get this other job, the good thing about those days is that you were never without a job…you could walk out of a job on a Friday and into another one on the Monday…none of the interview process that you have now, you just filled out a form, had a typing test and away you go [laughs]

Wow. And were you still in your flat in Valentine’s Park?

Um

Near Valentine’s Park?

Some of the time, after that place, um, I met a girl and I can’t remember where I met her now, but anyway we decided to get a place together, and we did, we got, um, like a small little flat, we still had to share the bathroom facilities though I remember, and I think we shared the kitchen facilities as well, but we had like, um, a room, a big room, with two beds in it and that was still at Ilford, that was in Sunnyside Road…which is up, do you know Sunnyside Road? You know, it’s all changed up there now, basically if you were going up Ilford High Road, um, there used to be xxxx on the right hand side and it was sort of round the corner from there

Ok

Yeah

And what was the building like?

It was, again, a big house

Split into flats?

Uh, no, rooms like bedsits

Rooms like bedsits, ok

Yeah, not flats, like they do today

So, so you had, so was everything all in one room, apart from a separate bathroom?

The cooking facilities were separate as well…so we basically had our bedroom…and…the shared facilities were outside of the bedroom, but you, you had your own key so you could lock the door

And how long did you stay, uh, in the, insurance place?

Um, I think I was there for, um, a year or so again…each time I was moving on and moving up the scale a bit and then, um…where did I work then?...I went to work in a couple of different places…there was another insurance…oh that was it, I went to another insurance company down at the Minories this time, which was near Aldgate, or is in Aldgate and I remember I worked in a big room with several other typists and, um…I stayed, must have stayed there a little while because I got, got quite a few friends there, none of them that I kept in contact with I have to say…and, um…you know, we worked in a big room and as the work came in you had to take it out the box and do it and then put it back in the box and somebody would come in, take it out the box [laughs]

So, what, what exactly were you doing?

Typing

So what was it that would come in the box?

Uh, tapes

Ok

And it had a spool, you know…it had

And what were you, what, what, what

You had to thread it onto your cassette machine and then put your earphones in and then you type whatever they were saying

And what were they saying? What were they

Oh just typing letters and, to people and

Ok, so they’d just record

Yeah

Things that they

Yeah

Wanted typing

Yeah, yeah

And who were they, these

They were the insurance, um

It was still in insurance

Brokers and assessors and, you know, um…yeah and I think it was normally people that had made a claim on something and they’d tell them why they couldn’t have their claim or that they were gonna get their claim and I enclose a cheque for blah, blah, blah and, uh, yeah, it’s a whole different ball game to what it is today [laughs]

Yeah, it’s fascinating. And were they all, um, girls, all the typists?

Yeah and mainly all the people, um, that did the letters were men…that was in the days of bowler hats, I can remember when I first worked in the city, you had men walking about in pin striped, trousers, black jackets and bowler hats

Wow

Yeah and I can remember…the Tube, the Underground, and I remember there was smoking on the Underground, so sometimes it could get pretty smoky and there was normally one carriage where you couldn’t smoke and, um…that was quite different then

Yeah really

Yeah…so, uh, well

Amazing. And where did you go after that? [laughs]

Oh dear, where did I go after that?...I think I went to work for a supermarket business, they were called Keeley and Tonge, T-O-N-G-E and, um, by then…they were in Houndsditch so I didn’t move very far, I sort of stayed in the same vicinity all the time, the Liverpool Street area and they were at the bottom of Houndsditch and, um, again worked in a large room, but this time we had a supervisor and she…we used to call her the witch and, uh, nobody liked her and she was quite strict, you know, if you were five minutes back late from lunch she was down on you like a ton of bricks and, um, I can remember one Christmas all the girls went out for, you know, it was Christmas Eve and, um, we were all drinking in the pub in Houndsditch and we all, jointly, said we weren’t gonna go back on time and we didn’t and we were all like half an hour late and she went mental and, um, ‘cause we’d all had a drink we didn’t care did we? [laughs]

[Laughs]

You’re half an hour late! Eh huh huh huh! You know

[Laughs]

And, um, I should sack you all! Anyway, she didn’t ‘cause she’d had lost her whole, her typing pool [laughs]

But you were working on Christmas Eve!

Yeah! Yeah, worked on Christmas Eve, yeah, everybody used to work on Christmas Eve then, it, you used to generally go home early, but you would work on Christmas Eve

Did you go home early on that day? [laughs]

I can’t remember, I can’t remember whether she made us stay half an hour later or what, um, but I remember she was really annoyed with us, but we knew that she would be, so we were five minutes late anyway, so we though oh sod it, we’ll be half an hour late [laughs]

[Laughs] And what was it like, what was the kind of atmosphere around Liverpool Street at that time, what, how did it feel to be young?

Oh it was great, it was in the days of the mods and the rockers and we used to go down to, um, Petticoat Lane and, two of the girls that I worked with were mods, I wasn’t really anything, you know, but I sort of went into the mods side of it a bit, but I wasn’t a real mod, um, but I remember buying, um…a dress…and I had it made for me, which a lot of them did, there used to be, um, a lot of little Jewish tailors and you could have things made, uh, people were very smart then, you know, much smarter than they are today and, I remember, there was a Jewish, um, shoe shop called Levitt’s, that was our favourite shoe shop, but you’d probably pay about three pounds for a good tailored dress, I think we were earning about ten pound a week, so that give you some sort of, um, idea of what we were paying and then, you know, if you went out for the evening you general went out with about three pound in your pocket and come home with change [laughs]

Wow

So, yeah

Different times

Yeah and, um

And what did you do on your nights out?

Oh we went to all different places, uh, we used to generally go in the pub and if there was a club, we’d go in a club afterwards, but I can remember, um, I met, um…one of my friends that I used to go out clubbing with, by this time I think I was going to the West End, Soho and, uh, our favourite club there was in Greek Street and it was called The Experience and it was an experience and we used to roll out of there at about five o’clock in the morning when it closed and wait for the first train home and, uh, then get on the train

And what was the experience?

And we never, we never paid our fare, our proper fare, we, it was not like it was no, automated, you could just go there with like thruppence or sixpence and give it to the ticket collector and they used to accept it, you know, so we just got on two stops ago, you know, um, yeah, The Experience was, um…yeah, it was a great place, good music and, uh, loud

What kind of music?

Uh, rock music mainly, yeah

So you were hanging out with mods, but listening to rock music?

Uh, this was, uh, moving on a bit further…down the road, it wasn’t during that period, I can’t remember what I did when I was, I think I was going out but I wasn’t going there, I think we discovered that place a little bit later and I think by then I’d changed jobs again, so [laughs] um, and then, I got a part-time job in the evening in, a place just past Ilford, in a club, it was called The Lacy Lady and, um, I liked it so much that I gave up my day job and just worked in the evenings in The Lacy Lady ‘cause with my two hips I was making as there as I was in the day

Wow

Yeah and, uh, so I worked there for about two years

And you were, uh, waitressing?

I was waitressing, yeah, only drinks though not food

Behind a bar, bar, barmaid

Yeah, bar waitressing it was to do with [banging] it was to do with the licence, they had

I just dropped the

Is it working?

Yeah, no, it’s totally fine

They had to have, um, waitresses serving the drinks ‘cause it was something to do with the licence that they had, they, y’, you couldn’t just serve drinks from the bar

So you had to take them to the tables?

Exactly

And what was The Lacy Ladies like?

The Lacy Lady

Sorry, Lady

Uh, it was on top, top of, um, another concern, um, I don’t know if you’ve heard of The Circus Tavern? Um, which is somewhere up the A13, but they used to have acts downstairs, you know, people that came in and did shows and everything and, um, so that was like the more theatrical part of it downstairs but upstairs was the disco and that was the bit that I worked in, so it was a disco and we had a DJ and dancing and drinking and, you know, all the rest of it I met lots of people there and I actually met my first husband there and, um, I got married when I was twenty one to him, but then I gave up that job, and went back to working in an office when I got married, and we got three bedroom council flat in Barking, I remember, and lived there and, um

What, and why did you do that, why did you give up your job?

He didn’t want me to do it anymore and I was fed up of it by then so, I think I left there on the Friday, again, after not being in an office for two years, just walked into an agency and got a temp job straight away, you know, but this time I got into the legal world and, um, I worked as a temp for about three years with the agency and I always had work, never unemployed and, um, I wound up, um, working for the job that I stayed at for over thirty years and, um, that’s the job that I re’, retired from a few years ago so

And what was that?

It was a big legal firm in the City, corporate lawyers and I ended working for the senior partner and, uh, so I xxxx became a legal PA basically…and, um

And what did that entail?

Well that entailed working for the senior partner who was the face of the firm. It was, um, a firm of about twelve hundred people, we had offices worldwide and, um, Janet my boss, she was one of the country’s top employment lawyers and I’d worked for her in the employment department before she was made senior partner and I had to work for a few other people as well, ‘cause you never just worked for one person, but she was my main boss and, um, so I learnt a lot there, I’d worked in all different departments while I was there actually, but that was one of my most enjoyable departments. And then I worked for her, when she was senior partner for five years and, um, I had to speak to different lawyers all over the world, different clients, deal with, things, as you would in a job like that and, um, basically do her typing, I typed a book that she wrote and, um…yeah and then she retired and then I went to work in the corporate banking department, for getting on for a year, for a lawyer, a partner, that was coming back from Germany and I hated it, absolutely hated it, I like jobs that I understand…obviously enjoy and I like jobs where I like the person that I’m working for. He was ok but he was…a little bit strange, he was one of these people that would never look you in the eye when he spoke to you, you know, he was always sort of looking up there around there and, I, once I said to him Steven I’m here, you know, speak to the face [laughs] and he oh! Oh ho! You know, I think got all flustered and everything [laughs] but I, I’m quite a forthright person and I though well, you know, m’, start as you mean to go on, if he can’t talk to me well then, yeah, but he wasn’t a nasty person, he was a nice person, he was just socially a little bit lacking, you know

[Laughs]

And, um, but he was good at his job and, um, so then I decided I couldn’t stand corporate law anymore so I said, Steven, it’s nothing to do with you because I think you’re a nice person, but I just can’t stand the work so I’m gonna look for another job and, um, he said fine, I’m sorry you’re going, blah, blah, blah and, um, then a job came up in, um, intellectual property…I don’t know if you know what that is, but anyway

Well tell me anyway, for the purpose for the tape

Well intellectual property is branding and trademarks and we had some of the biggest clients, um, working in that department, I went to work for a chap there and a few others and, um, it was a great job ‘cause it was sort of litigation based again which I like because it’s like a story, you have a beginning, a middle and an end, you know, and you can understand the story and it was quite interesting, intellectual property sounds really boring, but it’s not and, uh, so I enjoyed that and I was doing full, diary appointments and everything, organising, um, meetings, travel, same as I had always done, organising, um, events within our department, you know, for them to meet, uh, clients and things like that, as well as having to be fairly on, you know, on the ball to type up, uh, things that you, needed to go to court or something on the day and, um, but that was something I was quite used to, you know, turning something round really quickly and, um…so that was all interesting and that was the department, uh, I ended my working life really and, uh

And what, what was the person you were working for in intellectual property like?

He was very nice, he was a bit, people in intellectual property they’re a different type of client, they’re what I call, a bit robotic and, but, nice people but a bit, they, they’re normally from a sort of, um, science background because that’s their interest and intellectual property and branding can be to do with products, uh, like that, so he, his main specialism was media so we had a lot of media, uh, intellectual property, um, one of our clients, um, was Virgin Media, they were one of our biggest clients and, um…you had to always be, not just them, but all the clients, you had to be there for them and…um…there was no question of saying no, it was always yes…and, uh, he was really nice, Will, his name was, but he, um…he was very stressed out and I think from my time for working with Janet, he was a very high powered lawyer, I’d learnt from her about work life balance and I taught him about it, I taught him, ‘cause he was gonna go on holiday, when I first started working for him, he said his wife was getting pissed off because, you know, he kept answering the phone to all the clients, so I said well don’t do it, well you’re on holiday, don’t do it…you go on holiday d’, don’t then take your phone with you, or take your phone with you but leave it in the apartment or whatever and then just, you know, let somebody else deal with it and I think it was really difficult for him to do that, but then he called me in one day and said that he, he had listened to me and he was feeling a lot better about things and, you know, so I did teach one lawyer about work life balance [laughs]

And Janet taught you about it

She taught me, yeah

So what was she like?

She was, uh, really good, she compar’, compartmentalised everything, you know, and um, when I worked for Janet, although they don’t so this now ‘cause they’re corporate lawyers, but she had lots of high powered individual clients, people that were quite famous and, uh, if they got the boot from their job or whatever, we’d have to deal with the fall out, so that’s what we, I was doing for her, so that was a really interesting job and, um, you know, I’d get some well-known person on the phone like crying down the phone, yeah, and I’d have to…deal with them…and Janet would have to deal with them ultimately but I’d be the first port of call

And were you good at that?

Yeah I was very good at that…and, um, although once, and I never, and I never say this now, we had this um…quite high ranking, oh she’s been in the paper quite a few times, uh, director of a bank and she, got the boot from a couple of banks actually, and I, Janet and I started to think it wasn’t the banks, it was definitely her and, uh, she always had something to say about the next employer and, um, she rang up, it was one of those moments where I was just about, to leave, the office, it was a Friday night and I think it was about twenty to six and I normally finished a five thirty, Janet had already gone for the day, can’t remember where she’d gone but she wunt [wasn’t] there and, uh, the phone rang and I’m like, had my coat on, I though oh should I answer it, anyway it was her and she was screaming and shouting down the phone and I said, now just calm down, calm down?!, that was like, you know, let off [laughs] a nuclear bomb, well she went on one, told me to fuck off and, you know and, uh, I didn’t, anyway I rang Janet and I told her what she said, well Janet was straight on the phone to her, she said don’t’ you dare talk to my secretary like that and, um, how dare you and, uh, she gave her a rocket and, uh [laughs] anyway on the Monday morning I had this bottle of perfume sent to me with a big apology and she, uh, rang me as well and said I’m really sorry, she said, I lost it, she said, it was nothing personal, so I said that’s ok but that’s the sort of thing we had to deal with, you know, and uh, but it was interesting, it made life more interesting and so I learnt never to say calm down after that because that’s like a catalyst isn’t it [laughs] so yeah, so they were really good years, as I say there was only one time, or two times actually, funny enough they were both in the banking, uh, departments I worked for, um, some American lawyers and they come in as a sort of joint venture into the firm and nobody wanted to work for them, but I was sort of in between working for somebody and, uh, they said would you do it, so I said ok I’ll give it a go and, um…I had this boss, Tim his name was and he used to talk like that [deepens voice and lengthens words]

[Laughs]

And I though oh get on with it, for god’s sake man, you know [laughs] he had this very slight American drawl and, um, he was the best at what he did apparently, Tim Peterson his name was, don’t bother looking him up, but anyway, Tim Peterson, and I remember he had this brat of a child that would only eat this ce’, uh, cereal that you could get in America and it used to be, have to send, be sent over by courier, this kid’s cereal…and I went into him and I said Tim, really this is out of order, teach the kid to eat, you know, I said we have Coco Pops here you know and, uh, he said yeah but they’re not the, [in drawn out American accent] they’re not the same, he said believe me it’s worth paying the money

[Laughs]

You know [laughs] so I didn’t, uh, stay at that job for very long ‘cause I, uh, couldn’t understand what was going on basically, this is really in, sort of, back office of, uh, finance and I didn’t know about finance, I’ll put my hands up to it my, favourite was litigation and, uh

Because it was like a story

Yeah and I could understand it and I enjoyed it and I think, you know, if you’re working you’ve got to enjoy the job haven’t you?

Absolutely

Yeah

Yeah

So, that was that, I never stayed if I didn’t like something, or someone, there wasn’t many occasions where I didn’t like someone because being a forthright person I would just say so, you know, put a sock in it and, uh, don’t talk to me like that and, uh, I did, um, I, that was funny ‘cause when I worked in intellectual property one of the guys there, he was a partner, and he is what you call a little Hitler, you know, he was very small but he had a big…loud mouth and, um, everybody used to jump, I think he liked that people were jumping, you know and, um, when I was working for my other bosses and more and more we were working for more people because the computers come in by then so people were doing a lot of their own, um, diar’, diarising and, everything and uh, less typing to do, more of an organising job towards the end and, um…they said would you work for him ‘cause his secretary’s leaving, we’re not replacing, you know, the people that she worked for…I think we were all called in actually, all the secretaries and they sort of looked round and said, well look, you can all have a go at working for him and I was first to go wasn’t I to have to work for him, they said if you didn’t like it, you know, you don’t have to stay, so I said ok, I’ll give it a go, so then he says to me, [puts on squawky voice] oh Anne can you, he had a voice like a little shrew oh Anne can you come round to my office, I’d like to speak to you and um

[Laughs]

I said ok and, uh, he said now this is what I’d like you to do, when you come into the office in the morning, I’d like you to come in and say good morning to me so that I know you’re here he said and then when you go in the evening I’d like you to come in and say goodbye...so I said, I’m not gonna do that…why not?, so I said well I work for six other people, if I go in and say good morning and good night to all the people that I work for, I said, I’ll never get to my desk, so I’m not gonna do it and, uh, I can assure you that I’m always at my desk at nine thirty and I don’t leave my desk until five thrity and he said, oh alright then [laughs] that’s all they need these people, is telling, you know, otherwise they try it on

[Laughs] And so did that always work for you?

Yeah

Brilliant

Yeah and, uh, that’s the way to go girl, if ever you’re faced with that

[Laughs] I shall remember that good advice

Yeah because they’re just bullies

So apart from him, was he the only bully that you came across?

Um, no, he wasn’t the only bully but the other one, um…I didn’t really work for, but I had to do some work for him because, um, we had a big client in the Middle East and we all went to work out in the Middle East and I had to work for, this guy there, um, amongst other people and he was a bully, but he was, like, highly thought of and…but I never really liked him. I can remember we went into a restaurant one night in Abu Dhabi and, um, it was called the fish restaurant and, what you had to do, these fish were swimming round in the tank and you had to pick which fish you wanted and then you had to tell them how you wanted it cooked and what you wanted on it and everything, then the, um, waitress would come round and ask you about accompaniments and he was sitting there, I was working with this girl called Sharon and, um…we were listening to him when the waitress got to him and, this is what he was like, he could be really funny actually and, um, he looked like Mr Bean, so this will give you a bit of a scenario and, um, he said to her, [puts on high reedy voice] now listen to me carefully, this is him speaking to the waitress, I want plain boiled rice and I don’t want anything on it and he said have you got that? And she said yes. Well we were all, starting to laugh anyway his rice came up and it wasn’t plain boiled rice he said what’s that? [laughs] she said oh that’s what you ordered, he said no, no I didn’t order that!, I ordered plain boiled rice with nothing on it he said that’s got stuff all over it and I don’t want it, take it away! Take it away! [laughs]

[Laughs]

Well he’s waving his arms and anyway the poor, um, ‘cause she had serve, um, serve about, uh, fifteen or sixteen people ‘cause the whole office was there and she went to pick it up and he said oh leave it there then, leave it! Leave it! [laughs]

[Laughs]

And so she left it and then he ate it and I though why make all that fuss, you know, it’s only a bit of rice, oh!

[Laughs]

But that’s what he was like…and, uh…Sharon and I were killing ourselves laughing, but I mean, to the point where I thought I was gonna be sick ‘cause I was laughing so much [laughs]

[Laughs] Did he know that you were laughing at him?

I don’t know, but everybody was laughing they were…you know, listening to him and, uh, ‘cause he was the boss, but he was a bully

Was he a bully to you?

No, nobody was a bully to me

That is what I like, that’s good [laughs]

Yeah, even the, the class bully at school, uh, no not school, one of the departments that I worked at, uh, when I first started working for Janet…um…there were all these secretaries in the department and some of them I didn’t know and some of them I did and, um, there was one there, that came over that was very nice and, she sat round the corner from me with another girl and, um…suddenly I heard…that she didn’t like this other girl…but I didn’t hear anything beyond that…so then, a little while later…where I was sitting ‘cause we had, um, desks facing each other with a little partition, so it was like a square desk there and a square desk there, but I had these two square desks, because I worked for head of department and she had, like, lots of files and everything, they were already piled up on the other side of the desk, all the files and, um…I’d heard, that this Ros woman was a bit of a bully…but she wasn’t a bully to me, anyway one day she came up to me and she said Anne she said, um, I’m gonna come and sit on this desk…the other side of my desk…so I said, are you? why’s that then? she said because I don’t wanna sit round there anymore I, I can’t bear it, so I said well I’m afraid you’ll have to find another desk I said because, I like my desk being free and because of the type of work I did and the amount of work that I had, I didn’t really want any interferences, and I said I’m sorry but you’re gonna have to find another desk ‘cause I don’t want you sitting there and she went oh…she’d never heard the like of it before I suppose, but I thought no, I’m gonna put my foot down and I’m gonna tell her straight out that I don’t want her sitting there, or anybody else come to that and, uh, she did, she found herself another desk and then a little while later I’d heard that, um, all of this had been going through the personnel department, which is now known as Human Resources, and, um, the poor girl was made to leave because of her bullying, you know, she wasn’t made to leave, but she couldn’t stand to be in the job anymore ‘cause it made her ill

Ooooo

Yeah and I didn’t know anything about it until after the fact and she still carried on behaving like that…um…the whole time I was there, she had this like this little clique around her

Yeah

And, um, I could have been part of the clique but I chose not to be ‘cause I’m not that type of person and, uh, you know, I like everybody and if I don’t, well, you can’t like everybody can you? But it’s a working environment and you can’t behave like that

Mmm

And, uh, she got away with it

Um, so I’ve got, I’m gonna go back a little bit, I want to ask you about, I want to ask you about growing up. So you were growing up and your mother was Jewish and your father was Muslim

Mmm

And neither of them were around a lot

No, no

After you were five, so did you grow up with a kind of sense of that as part of your identity, that kind of, Muslim Jewish

No, uh, religion didn’t come into it at all actually because I didn’t see my father after the age of three and, um…because I’m quite light skinned and everything, nobody ever identified me as being anything but white…and so I never felt anything…but white I suppose you’d say…um, and it was in the days when it was quite unusual to have, uh, mixed…children, there wasn’t that many around and, um, but I, I supposed I got away with it because I was quite pale, you know, whereas some of the children that ca’, subsequently came to the home, you could tell…were mixed race. In those days they didn’t call them mixed race, they called them half caste, but I never got labelled and still, I mean people sometimes used to say to me oh are you half Italian or are you half French or half Spanish, but they’d never say Asian…and I’d say no, no [laughs]

So it’s never really been part, something you’ve

No, no because, um, if you go back to the war time, I mean lots of Jewish people were living around the East End, a hell of a lot, the same amount as the Bangladeshis now I suppose and, um, they were all varying forms of Jewish-ness and my mother and her family didn’t practice…so, we weren’t practicing Jews but, but in the Jewish religion if your mother’s Jewish, then that makes you Jewish, so…I s’pose I’m Jewish, but I’m not practicing…but then, you know, my father’s Muslim and…he never practiced either, so

And are you religious at all?

No I’m, I don’t believe in religion…if somebody wants to be religious, you know, they can do that, but don’t push it in my face, that’s the way I feel…and, uh, no I’m not religious at all

Cool. Thank you. And then I also wanted to ask about, what, um, a bit more about your father actually, just like, did you have a sense of him while you were growing up?

No, no I always remembered his face, but I didn’t have a picture of him at all and I only got a picture of him a little while ago, when I met up with my, other family…and, uh, so I’ve got a picture of him now and I’m the only one, out of all the children that looks just like him and they don’t [laughs]

And, and who, and you said you’ve got three or four?

Four, four half

Four

Siblings

And can you tell me a little bit about them?

Um, I can tell you about one of them because, uh, the others I don’t really have a lot to do with…um, but one of them, Shazna, she’s the youngest girl…and she…uh, has got her own business, she’s got a printing business in Tooting and uh, she’s just married again actually, she was married before, but divorced from the father, so she’s got two children by him, but now she’s got a much younger husband and, um, so she’s been married about a year to this new guy who…is ok, but he’s quite religious, so me and him are clashing a bit because

Muslim?

Yeah, because, she’s Muslim as well and, um, she does believe in the, you know, everything…she knows that I don’t and, um, she hasn’t tried to convert me or anything, but she tried to say different things to me, I mean, I’ve got gay friends and she said she’s put them on the same level as, not very nice people, I said, don’t talk about what you don’t know…I said, because they’re just like me and you, she said oh well we’ve, there’s a really nice one that comes in the shop and makes me laugh, so I said well what makes him nice then? what makes him nice, he’s still gay, she said oh he’s just really funny, so I said well yeah, he’s just a normal person, I said he’s not gonna, do anything to you that you don’t want him to do, the same as a normal person, you know, a non-gay person, so I do try to make her understand and I think she has to a certain extent, but then now he’s turned it all back a bit and, uh, we were gonna go on holiday together, but she mustn’t go out of the country now in case something happens to her and he’s not there…as a man…her next of kin man to help her, so I wasn’t very happy about that and I was gonna call him and give him a mouthful and she said don’t, don’t do that ‘cause you’ll just make matters worse and blah, blah, blah, so I said well how can I make matters worse I said because you’re changing before my very eyes and I said I don’t like it…I said, obviously things change when you get married I know that, but for him to bring all this Islamic rules and regulations, which I don’t like agree with, into our relationship…anyway, but that’s another story [laughs] so it’s really me and her that are the closest and, um, we got a good, uh, relationship…and, um, actually, I sent her, um, a copy of an article that I saw ‘cause we’d been tlking about this very subject yesterday, ‘cause we were gonna go on holiday, Spain or something together, for about three or four days, now he says she can’t ‘cause it’s un-Islamic and, uh, I don’t know if you saw this article, it was about a father in Dubai? and his daughter was in the sea, she got into difficulties and, uh, the two lifeguards said we’re gonna go in and save her and the father wouldn’t let them, he said I’d rather she, that she died because I don’t want you to touch her…and so she did, she died…and this, this is what this is all about

What do you mean this is what this is all about?

What Shazna’s told me now, that she can’t go abroad in case something happens to her and she can’t have another man touching her…so I said, well it won’t be another man will it, it’ll be me, but I’m not allowed because I’m a woman

So that makes you cross

That makes me very cross and it makes me believe that my non-religious belivings…are even more true and even more relevant

Hmm…yeah, it’s difficult isn’t it?

It is a difficult one

Yeah

So she’s not replied to my, um, to my text that I sent her, uh, with this article with it I, and I didn’t say to her, I didn’t, like, slang him off or anything, I just said I’d like to know your thoughts on this one…and, uh, she’s not replied to me yet [laughs]…yeah I think she wanted, um, because she wants to take the children away as well, including two of my nieces, uh, to Disneyland Paris, but she couldn’t go because, um, she didn’t have a man with her, a member of the family, it’s got to be a brother, um, or…a male member of the family to go with them…can’t be a woman

Mmm…and the others, are they si’, sisters or brothers?

Um, two brothers and a sister, um…one of them’s got five ch’, well the, um, the other girl’s got five children and, uh, she…has a husband that is very strict, so I don’t really have a lot to do with them…he never goes to functions or anything like that…oh I’ve been to one Muslim wedding with her as well and, uh, which I wasn’t very enamoured with…because, I don’t know if you’ve ever been to a Muslim wedding but all, the women are on one side and all the men are on the other and the men if they’re related to the women, they can come into the women’s side but the women can’t go into the men’s side and there’s no drinking or dancing, so I didn’t have much fun and I said to Shazna that I wouldn’t be going to another one [laughs] I could, I didn’t have to have the drink but I would like to have had a dance

[Laughs]

Two, two of the things would have been nice, you know, it’s a wedding after all [laughs] uh, but anyway, um, I didn’t really enjoy myself because, uh…they’re not very intimate affairs, they have like a cast of thousands, you know, in a Muslim wedding, it’s all about, to me it’s all hypocrisy, it’s all about…showing them how much money you’ve got…why are we talking about this? we should be talking about the M11 link road [laughs]

[Laughs] Yeah, yeah we have talked more about the rest of your life, but it’s just so interesting [laughs] So my next question was, was about your first husband and then we’ll get onto your second husband and that will lead smoothly into the M11 link [laughs]

Do we have to talk about my first husband?

No we don’t at all

Let’s cut him out completely, it was a, a good marriage but, I fell out of love, let’s just put it that way, I think I got married too young

You were twenty one

I was twenty one and I was still enjoying myself really, so, we split up when I was, um, twenty seven…and then, um…I bought a flat…Ilford…bought two flats in Ilford, one after the other and, when I was just on the verge of buying the second one when I was thirty three, I met Derek, my husband now, so…we’ve been together nearly thirty years and, uh, we just got married this year after being together for nearly thirty years and, uh, the reason we got married, apart from the fact we love each other is that, um…inheritance laws, ‘cause this house is…now worth quite a bit of money, we don’t see it as, you know…something financial, this is our home…um, but if we both die, it was gonna be clobbered with like loads of tax so if we wanted to leave it to somebody they were gonna, the government was gonna take forty percent of it in tax, so we didn’t want that to happen, so he said the way round that was to get married…and that’s one fo the reasons we got married, if we could have had a civil ceremony I would’ve done, but we couldn’t ‘cause we’re not gay [laughs] so…that was the main, one of the main reasons and plus my private pension…um…Derek is on, was always on it as my next of kin, but again because we’re not married it’s not guaranteed, but now that we’re married it’s guaranteed that he’ll get some of my pension if, uh, if I went first, so…it’s, uh, that was the main reason for doing, one of the main reasons…he said you shouldn’t say that, you know, we love each other, I said yeah, I know but that was one of the main reasons we did it and, you know, I find that lots of people in our position, that’s the reason why they get married late, or get married at all because of the property…and, um, yeah, but the living in the other house, it enabled us to buy this house, in a way, because we were only paying what I call peppercorn rent at the other place ‘cause it was under, um, under the death sentence wasn’t it so [laughs]

Ok, so let’s go back to you buying your second house in Ilford, your second flat in Ilford, how did you meet Derek, you met Derek around that time?

Yeah I met Derek, um, in a club at Forest Gate, um…and…it was the end of the night and he was with quite a few guys and I was with my girlfriends and our two groups collided and he was going to a barbecue the next night and asked me if I wanted to go to a barbecue…so I said yeah alright then and, uh, that’s how we met and we’ve been together ever since and, uh, he was living in a flat in Plaistow, in the same road as where his parents lived and where he’s been brought up, he was born and brought up in Plaistow and, um…he still had the studio at Stratford than, you know, the big Victorian school, um, but then a little while after that, um, he lost it so he was without a studio for a matter of weeks, and he applied to Acme, um, for one of these properties, you know, that were under the death threat and, um, to our amazement he got one, he got a while house in Colville Road at, part, on of the roads was to access his studio and, which it did, so that was a three bedroomed Victorian house which backed onto the Central Line, at the bottom of the garden was the Central Line and, uh, we could be sitting in the garden some days and the train would stop, you know [laughs] at the bottom of our garden, so that’s quite interesting, but you, you got used to the trains, you know, and as I say, it was a great house and we had great, uh, neighbours and, uh…I, I think he was s’posed to have that house for about two years but it ended up having it for six years ‘cause it kept going to the European court, you know, the protesters, um, they were taking legislation into the European court and it kept getting delayed, the start of the M11 link road, which was great for us, you know, as well

Can you remember what year you moved in?

Um, I think, uh, we met in eighty six, and I think I must have moved in, in about…eighty nine, ninety, something like that

And he, wasn’t living there before that was he?

Yeah

So when did he move in?

He moved in, in, uh, shortly after we met

So eighty six, eighty seven

Yeah

When you moved in

Yeah

Around eighty nine, ninety

Yeah, um

Can you describe the house for me?

Uh, the house was a Victorian house and the interior, uh, still had the nineteen seventies brown and orange wallpaper and curtains to match, I remember that

And it was

It was on Colville Road

Still Colville Road, I might not have that, I’ve got a few maps here but maybe that one doesn’t go far enough down, I don’t know [rustling of paper]…yeah I think that’s probably the

Well it was probably about here anyway

Ok

‘Cause just here is a turning, ok? So that side of the road is all still up that, those houses, it’s just this side that came down

Mmm

Yeah because of the road now runs along where the gardens used, um, used to be was it, have I got that right? The…oh the railway still runs along there…yeah we were losing the whole house…yeah ‘cause, that’s it, the M11 link road runs next to it and then there’s the railway station, so it’s the whole stretch

Mmm hmm

Of the house and the garden that was taken for the M11 link road

And does, and, can Claremont Road, where did Claremont Road used to go? Do you know that? Did that, was that like along here? Is that

Claremont Road was up here, it was sort of at the back

It was at the back

Yeah

Ok

It’s where the tree huggers were

Ok, so let’s go back to, to the house, sorry I was asking you

Yeah that’s ok

About what your house was like and then

Right, so it was a three bedroom house and, um, didn’t have any central heating and, um, single glazed windows, seventies wallpaper and seventies curtains that were still from the previous owner and, um, it had a small front garden and, um, normal, sort of normal, you know thirty five, forty foot garden and, um, it had, um, a living room, a dining room with a small kitchen attached to the back of it…and it just had this gas fire in the living room, a gas fire in the dining room, no central heating, um, we used to have this portable heater and, uh, I remember Derek wheeling it around upstairs, you know, if there was a, if it was winter…um…he’d go turn it on so it was nice and warm in the bathroom and I used to like, leap out of bed and run into the bathroom and [laughs] the fires used to go on when it was winter downstairs to warm the, sort of, kitchen and, um, dining room

What like log burning fires or

No gas fire

Gas fire

Yeah, gas fires and, uh, no couldn’t be bothered with, uh, burning [laughs] coal fires, it did have a cellar I think but we never went down the cellar, well I never went down the cellar, I’m sure it had a cellar…I never went down there and, um, separate bathroom and toilet, all in, apart from the toilet were in one, but they was separate, um, to everything else, yeah, and then one, the biggest sort of, uh, room at the front, upstairs bedroom was, uh Derek’s studio that he used as a studio, so we had the smell of paint in the air and, um, yeah good old days and, uh, I don’t know if you know Leyton station at all do you? In those days, it, it, at peak times it used to have two entrances, one at the back and one at the front, uh, the one at the back went years ago and, uh, but I always used to use the one at the back, which was at the bottom of my road, so I could literally fall out of bed, get ready, you know, get washed and dressed and I don’t think I used to eat any breakfast in those days, I just used to buy something on the way to work and eat it in work and, um, I could go, fall out of bed at quarter past eight and I, I could be at work, you know, well in time for half past nine

[Laughs]

And on a good day, I could get to, you know, on a good day I could get to Liverpool Street in ten minutes, so it, ‘cause it’s only one stop from Stratford

It’s on the Central Line isn’t it

And, um, if the main line train was coming into, pulling into Stratford to go to Liverpool Street sometimes I used to jump off the Tube and jump on that and that only used to take five minutes, so that was quite good and, um, yeah, I remember, uh, you know when we had the…the hurricane thing in eighty seven?

Mmm hmm

Um, we used to have these oak, big oak trees in Colville Road that had been there for hundreds of years and about three or four of them blew over in that wind

Wow

And the whole road was blocked off, the fire brigade had to come and chop them up and, um, I remember Derek getting up, ‘cause I was staying with him, um, overnight and I remember the, um, Derek getting up for work and suddenly he appeared at the bedroom door again saying, there’s a tree on top of your car! And, uh, it looked worse than it was, ‘cause it was actually only the branches and, uh, I remember only the windscreen wiper got broke, but the car was fine and it was sort of underneath all the, the branches and the leaves and everything and, um, ‘cause a lot of people used it for parking, that road, but nobody could get in that morning ‘cause it, it was blocked off, so that was quite funny, but um, yeah

So the point at which, oh uh, how much were you paying for your house on Colville Road?

Um, I think it was about ninety pound a month

Yeah, wow, um, and, so when you moved in, were there, was that, was, was the area mainly, either still local residents or at, or xxxx, artists

It was, I would say it was probably

Squatters and activists?

About half and half or maybe a bit less than that with the artists being the lesser, um, but I know in Claremont Road, which was round the back of Grove Green Road, um, there, a lot of the houses there were, um, what do you, what’s that word when people move in illegally?

Squatting

Squatting, there were, and the, that’s where all the tree huggers were, as we used to call them, but we, we liked them all because they was delaying the road, which we didn’t want, ‘cause once we’d actually moved into the house and got to know people, um, it was a nice place to be, you know, we were hoping the road didn’t go through, or we were hoping that they’d build the road underground

Mmm

Like a tunnel, which they could’ve done, ‘cause the amount that they spent on that road, you know, just for the couple of miles stretch that it actually is now, they could’ve done it all underground, they had to do it at Wanstead because of the trees on Wanstead Green, don’t know if you know about that?

Yep

There’d been some old oaks there, one of them actually has come down, been there for hundreds of years, but that was one, one of the reasons that they went underground, just at Wanstead, because of the trees…um, but we couldn’t have that excuse because, uh, it were just people’s homes and their back gardens, so, um, and also, it went through because the Labour Par’, uh, because Conservatives got in that year, if the Labour Party would’ve got in it wouldn’t have gone through, um…the M11 link road was part of, um, a group of different roads that were gonna be built and one was gonna be built…in the west of London, but the Tories didn’t want that, this is what we said at the time, and they stopped that one from going through, but they went ahead with ours, ‘cause it was in the East End

So why do you think that they, so, I mean seriously, I, I mean you’re saying that it’s the tree, that it was just the trees, do you think that’s the real reason that, that they went under Wanstead and

Oh definitely, that was the reason

But

Originally it was gonna go

What about people’s houses?

Originally it was gonna go through it, there were no houses there, that’s what I’m telling you

No but I mean, where it did, I mean in Leyton and Leytonstone

Oh they would have had to come down, they would have had to come down

But why were the houses valued less than the trees [laughs] that’s my question

Because the trees were old and they were like listed trees, or something on Wanstead, you know like Seven Oaks? the oaks in Seven Oaks that there’s, that no longer seven oaks ‘cause one of those got blown down, or two of them got blown down, they were like listed trees and they won’t destroy them and that was the reason, that was the reason

Um, ok, but there, so then there was lots of resistance around

Lots of resistance

Where you were

Yeah

And how

There was, um, lots of resistance through the European court, ‘cause it went all the way there and, um, I remember there used to be this Portuguese lawyer, that kept saying no, he can’t have it, he was one of the main people that said yes or no

You can’t have the road?

Yeah, to the government, and he kept, putting it off and putting it off when it went to the European court and, eventually, they won, you know, ‘cause there was more money being spent, by the people that wanted it, i.e. the government and, um, we didn’t have that money to fight our case

And so was that already under way, was that

Yeah

Resistance already happening when you moved in?

All of these roads were planned before World War Two, apparently, this is what I heard, and they’d been thinking about having these roads since after the Second World War and, um…when Derek and I moved in, all the ho, houses were owned by, well taken over, compulsory purchase by the Department of Transport and so they were all on licence to Acme and Derek had a licence to live there, it wasn’t a proper tenancy agreement and, um, it, we knew because it said in the licence, that it probably be short term and they said it’d probably be about two years…but it ended up being six years, but we kept hoping…that it wouldn’t got through at all, we knew nothing about the road until we moved to that area…but, um, we quickly came to like that area, so

And did you, um…oh, what was my question? [Laughs] Sorry, my question was, was it legal that you mo’, were you allowed to move in?

Yeah, I was allowed to move in, I wasn’t on the tenancy agreement, but Derek had moved me in because I was his girlfriend, yeah, there wasn’t a problem there

There wasn’t a problem with that

No

And, um, what did you do with your house?

I sold it and, um,

Your flat sorry

Yeah, ‘cause we decided that we were, that if the house didn’t got hrough, this was the other thing that was happening, if, um, they decided they didn’t need your house for the road, you could buy it at a cheap rent and we could’ve bought that house ‘cause some friends of ours did, buy they house on xxxxbridge Road, they just lost about a third of their garden to the road, but the rest of the garden and the house they got for forty five thousand, three bedroom Victorian house, they’re now worth six hundred thousand, ok?

They did alright then

So, well, they didn’t stay there, that was the other thing and, um, I’ll tell you the story about them in a minute, but, um, they didn’t stay there but, um, those houses, I mean most of the houses round here now are worth half a million plus and, um, we didn’t pay anywhere near that [laughs] and, uh, we were, we bought in the days when everything was a bit more sane, you know, not like it is now, you know that story anyway, so um, no I feel sorry for young people today, you know, ‘cause I think it’s all wrong and, uh, the way it’s all gone and…Boris selling…central London properties to property developers, investors from overseas, that are never gonna live in them…makes my blood boil…I think if I saw Boris I’d have to slap ‘im

[Laughs]

I’m not normally prone to physical violence

[Laughs] So we’re you, um…did you get involved, did you, what was your relationship with the, kind of, with, well with tree huggers, as you called them?

Well

Or did you have any relationship with them?

We had a happy relationship with the tree huggers, ‘cause I remember when we actually did move, um, they were still there ‘cause, what happened was, when you said that you were moving out, they came in, um, Squib and Co. were the, uh, the company that was hired to, uh, demolish the houses, um, and they’d be there, with the security guards at the door on the day that you said you were leaving, or at the minute you said that you were leaving and they’d be in smashing everything up, taking everything apart and making it uninhabitable so that squatters couldn’t live there and then they boarded it up, it was all done in a matter of hours and, um, I can remember that we’d move into this place and course, I used to have to go past Leyton on the Tube and they’d all be in the trees and everything and, um, if not in the trees then visible from the Tube, you know, most people on the train were saying load of nutters, you know, but I used to like wave to them and [laughs] they really happy and go whaaaay! you know, as I went past on the Tube [laughs] so although I never really knew any of them I was, we were all in support of the road not going though and the, um, the destruction of what we saw, people’s housing and, uh communities really ‘cause, uh, we got to know the community, they were, a lot of them, you know, people that had lived there for years, had known each other for years and they were all being dispersed out to different places, that they didn’t really want to go to, including the two old ladies our next door neighbours, who are now no longer with us

Tell, tell me about them

Well, um…one of them had been married to a policemen because, I think I told you, but um, we were told by her that one time they were mainly policemen’s houses

On Col’, just on Colville Road?

In that area, yeah, not every house in the street but in the Leyton area that was, you know, a lot of them were for there and, um, one of them was married to a policemen that had died, you know, years ago and then her sister came to live with her and they’d been living there for lots of years and it wasn’t their own house it was a rented house and nobody really owned their own house then, everybody rented, you know, [cat comes into room] hello pussycat

Hello

Hello Patch…and, um, yeah so it was all, uh, upsetting especially for them, you know, ‘cause they’d lived there a long time and, um

And what were their names again?

Clara and Siss (sp?) and

Clara and Siss (sp?)

They were both in their eighties and they were offered council flat, this is gonna make you laugh, one of them was quite infirm, could hardly walk and the, um, Clara she could walk and she used to look after her sister a lot, um, but they were both, as I say, in their eighties and they’d lived in that house a long time and one of them had lived in it most of their life and they wanted to move them to a tower block to something like the twentieth floor, yeah, anyway she did have a son, Clara, who, um…went to the council and said, you know, you can’t put them there, it’s impossible blah, blah, blah so after a lot of fighting and, um, toing and froing they were offered a ground floor corner flat which they both went to live in and we visited them there and they’d made it nice and everything, but they says it would never be home

Mmm

You know, they made it as nice as it can be, it’ll never be home…and, uh, I think they lived in their for a couple of years and so

So was that in Walthamstow?

Yeah, that was in Walthamstow off of, um, Lea Bridge Road

Mmm

And, uh, it was quite noisy there, round where they lived, um, what’s the name of that junction, um…I can’t remember the, but there used to be a bingo place on the corner…but that’s Hibbert Road they moved to, it was called Hibbert Road in Walthamstow and it was a nice little flat but, you know, moving people out at that age…is never good when they’ve lived there all that time, and, where they wanted to move them to originally if they didn’t have anybody to speak up for them, you know, they’d have ended up in a, in a tower block on the blimmin twenty second floor or whatever it was

Yeah. Did you know Dolly Watson? Do you know of Dolly Watson?

No

She was a woman who lived on Claremont Road and she’d lived there all her life

Ok, yeah

Um, and she…she was removed by, she refused to leave when they compulsorily repurchased her house and she was removed, uh, she did in the end leave for ill health because I mean it was kind of

Mmm

She was ninety three, she ended up leaving and going to a care home and she died shortly afterwards, but it’s a similar kind of

Yeah

Thing that she was just, sort of, she didn’t want to leave ‘cause it was

No

Her house

It was her home all along and it was nice Claremont Road because, um, it was nicer than Lea Bridge actually, I’ll tell you why because Claremont Road was just houses on one side

Mmm

And the other side faced the, um, railway lines and the sentry was beyond that, the Catholic cemetery which was beyond where we lived as well, which is still there, the Catholic cemetery, I’m surprised they didn’t take any of that away, but they didn’t and, um, so really, like us she didn’t have anybody on the other side, they didn’t have anybody on the other side of the road

Mmm

‘Cause it was just houses facing that way…so, it was nice and leafy and that’s where all the tree huggers sat

And did you know any of them? Did you get

No

Did you ever do, did you ever visit

Well we went to lots of meetings and everything and, um, gatherings but no, I wouldn’t say I personally knew any of them, we used to see them

What kind of meetings did you go to?

Um, to say, you know, that we didn’t want the road to go through, um, I was working full-time then so it wasn’t always possible for me to get my, really fully involved, but I did keep up with what was going on and I was for the tree huggers and the people that didn’t want the, um, road to go through…and we wanted our communities to stay the same and, uh, well it didn’t so we had to move, it was always our intention if we could, if the road didn’t go through, to buy that house, to stay there

And do you, do you regret that that wasn’t the case?

I do regret it, but Leyton now, Leytonstone has, uh, the funny thing is, it’s Leyton station but it was Leytonstone and up here is Leyton but we’re served by Leytonstone station, so it’s a bit, you know

Bit confusing

The back xxxx ‘cause at the moment Leytonstone High Road runs up there I suppose and Leyton Road is, High Road is here, but anyway…um, what happened to our friends, they lived on Grove Green Road, they were in the same position, Colin, Colin got the house ‘cause he was an artist and he had his studio in the house…they were allowed to buy their house ‘cause it wasn’t demolished in the end, they only lost about a third of their garden and they were allowed to buy that hose for forty five thousand which they did do and, so, they did it up, she was half Spanish, Terry, so they decided that they were gonna live in Barcelona and that’s where they’re still living now, but the place they bought in Barcelona for cash, uh, I think they stayed in Lea Bridge Road for a couple of years after they bought the house and immediately doubled the money because it was worth more, even then and I think they sold it for about ninety, ninety five thousand and, uh, with that they were able to buy, um, an apartment in Barcelona which they did do and, uh, they went to live there, but then, property prices…in Barcelona…crashed…and at one time I think their property probably went up to about three hundred thousand, I’m not sure if that was Euros or pounds and, um, then…’cause they desperately wanted to come back to London and they couldn’t

Mmm

Because they couldn’t sell their flat for the money that they needed, so they’re still there, but I think they’ve made the best of it now, but we don’t see them anymore ‘cause we, um, fell out with them and, um…so I don’t know what the current position is, but from what I know they’re still there and they can’t afford to come back now…or not live in London where they want to

Mmm

They’d have to live in Dagenham or something [laughs] if they were lucky

If they were lucky. Um…so tell me about the sense of community in that, in the area

Well the sense of community was very strong and, um, we knew all our neighbours more or less in the road and if we didn’t know them by name we knew them by face, so there’d be, I’d say, about two thirds of the street that had already been living there before

Mmm hmm

And, um, the government finally decided that the road was gonna go through and then there was quite a few artists that lived there on the short term, um, tenancies, including one called John who, funnily enough, probably moved into this place ‘cause he’d moved, uh, a little while before us, but in the end he didn’t, that house didn’ come down it was on the other side of the street but it was in a bit of a, um, bit of a mess, so, but at that time they didn’t know which houses in that street were gonna come down, so, um, they decided to move out. We moved in here and then, we weren’t really friends with them, when they lived in Colville Road but when we moved in here we found out they lived over there, they’d moved over, over there and now we’re still friends now, but they don’t live there anymore, they moved out and, uh, they’re divorced actually, she was Swiss, she went back to Switzerland and, uh, John, I think he’s on his fourth marriage now and, uh, but he’s just about to sell his house in Lewisham, which is where he moved, he moved to South London, so, um, yeah, so that was quite funny and then, a lot of people, the artists we knew around that area have all sort of stayed in this vicinity in, um, Leyton or Leytonstone, but in different places and, um, most of the people that weren’t artists didn’t own their own houses either, they rented, so they were offered council accommodation in different parts of Waltham Forest, so they was all dispersed

But most of the artists chose to stay in the same area

Yeah, because at that time, as well, um, apart from being the good connection, you know, the Central Line, uh, property prices were quite reasonable and Derek and I, actually, we just started buying this place and Acme offered us another house in Wanstead, just by Wanstead station and, um, we though oh we’ll go and have a look at it, but we’re already buying this, but we thought we’d go and have a look at it and see what it’s all about, it was a two bedroom sort of cottage type house and, uh, I said to Derek really morally we can’t take it, you know, ‘cause we did think about buying this and renting it and living in that one, but I said from a moral standpoint I can’t, we can’t do it, you know, let somebody ese have it if they need it, so we didn’t take it, but we could’ve done that and some people did, some people did, and I even know somebody that’s got a house, uh, that’s most of the year in Germany, an artist, he rents it out

Still Acme?

They bought it, from Acme

Oh ok

Yeah, they was allowed to buy it, as we would’ve been allowed to buy it after a certain amount of time, but we, uh, we decided not to

You thought that was the right decision?

Yeah, I still think it’s the right decision

Yeah

Because, you know, it allowed another artist or couple of artists to have a place to, to live

Yeah. Um, and just for the sake of the tape, tape, obviously I can see lots of beautiful paintings? around but can you just tell me, uh, what kind of, so Derek’s obviously a painter

Yeah

Um, do you think, I mean based on what I can see around me, I’m not sure if this is gonna be, if there’s, if, if it will be the case, but do you think, did the area that you were living in kind of have any impact on the work that Derek was producing?

Um, I don’t think it did, but it did, it enabled him to do the work, um, he was always into painting the figure

Mmm

Xxxx painting. And, uh, he still does that to this day, so I don’t, he does, um, look at his surroundings, he’s always doing sketchings [sic] from life, but the people that are around him, but…um, I don’t think the location affected what he did, it was just maybe the characters that he drew, so he still…painting and drawing the figure in one way or another…but he’d probably do that anyway without

Mmm. Was it a, was it a, an exciting place to live?

Yeah it was exciting, I mean everything was different then, it’s not like it is now, I have to say that, um, Leytonstone High Road was…a nor’, an ordinary, English high road, if you go there now, it’s not what I call an English high road, there’s Polish shops, lots of, um, Eastern Europeans living in that area, um…so in a way it’s completely changed

Mmm

In the way of its English community, the same as probably Hackney has, well Clapton has or any other part of London, quite a few places out of London, but yeah definitely, um, not the same as when we first moved there and I would say not the sense of community because a lot of the people who live there are transient so they stay there for a while and maybe move on and, you know, um, I would say probably a lot of the Polish people or Eastern European, don’t buy their homes, they rent, so really…they don’t love those homes, its somewhere to live

Mmm

But there’s a new kid on the block

Who

I don’t know if you know that, but now, you’ve heard of Walthamstow being called Awesomestow have you? Well it’s spilled over to our area now and so all the people that lived at Stoke Newington and Islington that can’t afford to buy their house there because, you know, now their having babies and everything, where are they moving to? Leyton and Leytonstone, I’ve seen quite a few of those, I’ve been on to, um, a group, a foodie group on Facebook and a lot of them have come from Stoke Newington and Hackney, um, you know, that had flats there, but they wanted to buy a house and, um, they want, uh, nice food and I think a lot of the time they’re talking about new shops that have opened, you know, nice places to eat ‘cause it’s definitely becoming gentrified [coughs] I think it will definitely keep the mix because…there’s lots of, um, council places still so…and a lot of people were there before it started changing, so I think they’re’ll still be that good mix for a long time, but definitely it’s changing. But if you go to some parts of Walthamstow, it doesn’t even look like the East End, you know, the way it’s been gentrified and the prices there, you know, two bedroom house there, you’re looking at six hundred thousand or, if not, more?

How do you feel about that?

I don’t feel very happy but then I don’t feel very happy about the whole labour market, how it’s going in this country because I think, um, Europe was a mistake…and if they, um, let us vote for it I want to vote to come out, not because I, I’ve got anything against immigrants, ‘cause I haven’t because, I mean, my family came from immigrants, it’s the amount, it’s the amount of people and also, um, the amount of money that they will work for, they can afford to live on a low wage in the main and so therefore they’re sharing flats sharing, sharing houses, they don’t have the same expenditure as somebody whose born here who wants to start a family

Mmm

That’s what I think, that’s what I think, so they’re driving down wages…while they’ll accept a lower wage

Mmm

What do you think about it?

[Laughs] We won’t go into that, especially not on, not while this is on

You can tell me when it’s turned off [laughs]

This is me doing the interviewing [laughs]

[Laughs] ‘Cause you’re a young person aren’t you?

Role reversal here

You’re a young person and you must be really feeling the effects of it, I mean contracts, ok? there was no such thing when I was working, you had a proper job…I know because, I mean, even in my firm, which was a professional firm, we had to start giving out contracts to para-legals and, um, we even had interns that worked for nothing

Yeah, I mean, yeah. Hmm. Um, but just to get back to the M11 [laughs] um

Did you want another drink? Maybe a cold drink?

I wouldn’t mind some water, can I just pause, I’ll just pause this for a second, ok?

Mmm

[Recording stopped]

[Recording started again]

Ok, so, I’m, I’m nearly finished with questions, but then I’ll just ask you if you’ve got anything else you want to say, but, I did want to ask you about the four nine one gallery on Grove Green Road? Did you know that?

Um, I know it’s there, I’ve never been there

Never been in it?

No

Ok, fine, it’s just something that I’ve come across and something and I haven’t managed to ask anybody about it yet and I wondered if there was any relationship with the whole

No, no

Anti-road thing

Um, there is another place on, um…Church Road, near the church that’s run as a gallery, it’s part of the library, I don’t know if you know about that place? Um, so they have a lot of artists there and some of them, um, Derek had a show there a few years ago actually, but some of them, uh, people who did live in some of the housing, um, not that I’ve ever met any of them, um

What did you, what did you say it was called?

Um, I’m trying to think of the name of it now, but it’s part of the library

Ok

There, so if you went along there you could see it, but they have a new show about every three or four weeks in there and it’s normally local people, so

And with the artists, was there, do you think there was a general sense that they were supporting the road not going ahead, as opposed to the road going ahead?

Um, I think most of the artists, if you know any artists, I don’t know if you do know any artists, they’re normally quite, I would say, selfish people…and all their thinking about is their art and how to produce it [laughs] and, uh, so, yeah I’m sure they had sympathy for it, um, in some cases they might have acted…um, but whether it would’ve been a full scale, um…action I’m not sure, if they could’ve kept their houses and their studios at a really cheap rent that would’ve been something that interested them and, um, I’m sure from that point of view they would’ve wanted to keep it…but

But it wasn’t political?

No, no, I mean with, with Derek and I, I was more political than him I think and from, I suppose, a selfish point of view as well, you know, because we came upon this really lovely house in a good place and…it was convenient for us, but also we had a lovely community but, as I say, I’m one of these people that talks to people anyway, so I always, even if my neighbour doesn’t wanna talk to me, they’re gonna talk to me, you know?

[Laughs]

Whether they like it or not and I make them talk to me and, um, all my neighbours know me and I know all my neighbours…I could name everybody that lived…to the end of the block…and some beyond

Mmm, wow. That’s impressive

Yeah, ‘cause if I see them moving in as well, I’ll make a point of going up and saying hello I live at number blah, blah, blah, but sometimes they’re shocked, you know, and, but they’re pleasantly surprised, but unless you go and say that and introduce yourself, ‘cause you’re only introducing yourself aren’t you? you’re not like giving blood [laughs] and it’s quite nice thing to do, in the olden days, they would’ve brought you round something to eat or, you know, give you a flask of tea or coffee, but people don’t tend to do that anymore, they don’t need to do it so much now because they normally catered for it but, um, in those days they wouldn’t of, there wouldn’t of been the fast food places to go to and just grab a quick hot meal

Mmm

And, um…so, things are changing, I mean, I can remember over the years having, uh, street parties, some of that’s coming back, people are trying to bring that back

Did that happen in Colville Road?

Uh, we didn’t have a street party there but we did have a bit of a carnival thing there, um, on the, um…where was it…I can’t remember what the occasion was now, but I remember having something where we all took food out into the street and, uh, we were chatting to each other, but we all chatted to each other, anybody, anyway, you know, so, um, it was a, a community

Mmm

And we liked to, you know, but it was a different time, even though, you know it wasn’t a million years ago, but things change quickly don’t they?

Mmm, mmm. Ok, so the artists weren’t particularly political, by and large, from what you were saying , they weren’t particularly politically involved, but do you think they had an attitude to the tree huggers or the activist-y type people, do you, do you think they

Well I think they were for it because of what I’ve said before, ‘cause they had cheap accommodation and cheap studios so therefore they wanted to, um, keep those but in some cases like Trevor, our immediate neighbour who was, um, um, Scottish, he decided, the idea that he didn’t want to be in London anyway so it was, uh, a means to an end for him as well, um, he actually got a job, um, working up, um, not in Scotland, I think it was in Newcastle, as a curator, but it enabled him to do what he wanted to do at that time, you know, a lot of the artists might have been newly out of college, you know, not a lot of money, um, that type of thing, so it helped them, you know, on the rung of the ladder I suppose

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense, yeah

And, um, a lot of people, as I say, didn’t buy their place then, most people were renting…even then

Mmm, yeah

It’s only, since then that…the British, I would say and since Margaret Thatcher, sold off council housing, um, wanted to actually own their own property, everybody was happy sort of bobbing along before that and jobs were, you know, plentiful…yeah, I grew up in a good era I think, the best era

Yeah [laughs]

Yeah I wouldn’t want to be a young person today…I don’t think, does that sound a bit harsh? I think it, it, it’s a terrible struggle for young people today, you know, because, I mean the other thing I never went to uni but Derek did, he never had to pay anything to go to uni and now they’re left with a debt before they even start work

Yeah

And you probably know that

I do

Yeah, so I don’t think that’s a good start for anybody is it, you want to start with a clean slate

Mmm

And you want to work, you know, but you want to work in a job you like and enjoy and you want to have decent wages so you don’t have to struggle, you know, we’re not talking millionaires here, we’re just saying a decent…way of life and, you know, not struggling all the time

Yep

Although, you know, my younger life, it was a bit of a struggle, I came through it…and, um, I nearly, apart from my mother, had a good experience…maybe I wouldn’t have been where I was if I’d’ve stayed with my mother and I often think that

Do you?

Yeah, yeah

What do you reckon, what do you think?

Well I just wonder what sort of mother she’d’ve been, I mean she would’ve carried on the way she was and I don’t think she would’ve been encouraging or anything like that, or supporting

Did she want to keep you?

She only wanted to keep me when she wanted to keep me

Mmm

And nobody knew…when that was and that was the problem [sound cut out] but I don’t get upset about it because [sound cuts out] you know, it’s all in the past that’s what [sound cuts out]

Is there anything I haven’t asked you about the M11 link road that yo…have got to say about it?

Um… the amount of money that was spent building a couple of miles of link road, to me, is immoral, but money as I know um, goes in the hands of a lot of people that you don’t know about, working in the jobs that I did, for very important people, whose names I won’t name, but they’re all quite famous, I know how much money they het, and I know the hidden money, so where you see the likes of … a head of industry losing his job, he doesn’t really lose his job, he’s getting hundreds of thousands of pounds, if not millions to go, even today, and perks on top of that, as well, and I think if they’re getting it, why can’t everybody else have it? And that’s why I support the tube drivers. They’re talking about work/life balance that’s what they want. It’s not about the money, and everybody should have that. You shouldn’t have to work until you’re feeling so wretched that you aren’t enjoying your life. You should be earning a decent salary. Everybody that lives in London should be on thirty plus, as far as I’m concerned. I’m not into communism, but… it should the bottom wage, but you should be made to work for it. You can’t just walk into a job and say, oh, I’m gonna earn thirty thousand and not do anything [both laugh], so that’s what I feel about it and I don’t think that road should ever have gone through, and if it did it should have gone underground. They’re drilling big holes in the earth anyway now, for channel tunnels and um, you know, all this cross rail and everything. Billions and billions and billions. It’s just er… something’s gone wrong somewhere, hasn’t it. I think. So, I was brought up in nearly a perfect world, I think. We got free dinners at school, free milk. I’m not sure if they get any of that anymore. Don’t think they get milk anymore, no I know they don’t get milk anymore, and they’re lucky if they get free dinners. We got all of that. Got free university. And er, my final word on the road is, it just brought more traffic into London and out of London. And when they should have built better transport, the central line, it has improved, because I remember when it used to break down all the time, for electrical…something wrong with the electrics or something wrong here, or something wrong there, if they’d have spent that money on the central line, can you imagine what it would have been like? Be so much better, and everybody wouldn’t mind travelling on it then.

Yeah.

The only people that need to drive a car into London are trades people, carrying tools. They’re the only people, and maybe disabled people.

Or they could have disabled access on tubes.

Well they could, but they’d have to make it a lot better, wouldn’t they?

Well, yeah.

You know, at Leyton, and Leytonstone, some of the worst stairs I’ve ever seen. Even I have to hold on when I’m going down those stairs sometimes, because they’re really slippery and steep, so imagine going down there with a pram or something, and er… or even a bike, which you’re not allowed on anyway, are you?

Oh, one more thing, can I just ask you one more thing?

Yeah.

I just…that’s a photo of Claremont Road residents, but this is the photo of Colville Road residents that you sent to me, so can we just, can you just point out.. so this is you, is that right?

No. This is me.

Oh, That’s you. Oh, I thought you said…

I was to the right of the man with the crazy jumper.

Oh yeah, you were to the right. Sorry.

So, her name was Liz, and that’s Trevor. They were our next door neighbours and they came from up North. They’re both artists.

And Derick is…is that Derick?

That’s Derick. And um, this lady here, I can’t remember her name, but she was a long term resident, as was this lady, with her children that were all… she had children from different fathers, this lady here.

So that’s the lady with the long hair and the leather jacket.

Yeah. I still see her around now. She lives in Walthamstow. Um… they’re her two children and they’re both grown up now. And er, that’s Clara, don’t think Siss is there because she couldn’t stand up properly, but that’s Clara. Um… he was one of the main people against the road, but I can’t remember his name now.

He’s the man in the middle with the stripy top.

Yeah. Everybody else, um, were people that I just used to say hello to, that I didn’t really know. Some of the people that I knew better are not in this picture.

Hmmm. But these are all Colville people?

Yeah.

Hmm. Excellent.

Yeah. My house was just up here. I think that was my house here.

Oh, look, there a No… do you think was a No M11 Link Road…

Yeah, No M11 Link Road

…Poster in the window…

And they used to say other things as well, because some of the artists did their own version of what it should say

Like what?

Homes for People, Not for Roads, and you know, that type of thing. No swearing or anything like that, because we were all well behaved then, but [both laugh]. We didn’t protest enough, did we? We were on the verge of it not going through, then it did, because the government changed. Yeah, so that was a good little article, tells you quite a lot, doesn’t it?

Mmm.

And erm, yeah, seems like another time. Well, it was another time. Everybody looks fairly happy, don’t they?

They do, yeah. It’s nice, it’s a nice picture.

Yeah, this is me. I’d just come home from work when they were taking the picture. I’ve got my work outfit on, my jacket and dress.

Yeah. It’s nice… and this is the more rag-tag…

That’s Claremont Road is it?

That’s Claremont Road.

And where did you get this picture from?

Somebody that I interviewed recently gave it to me. She’s not in there actually.

Their houses were in a bit of a worse state that ours I think.

Were they? Were yours not too bad then?

Well Claremont Road, you could see those houses from the tube, you know, we went right past on the central line. In front of them were the trees, and on the other side of that was the cemetery. Was that the old lady you were talking about?

That’s Dolly, yeah.

I seem to remember her actually, yeah. Yeah.

And that’s a woman called Jacky, I think. She was another local. And I think most of the others in that picture were um…

Artists?

Activists. Squatters.

Yeah. But we did support them and um, I think Colin and Terry, they lived on the other side of these people…

OK…

Lea bridge, because it run parallel with Lea Bridge…

When you…do you mean Grove Green?

Oh, sorry Grove Green.

Lea Bridge is Walthamstow.

Yeah, sorry, Grove Green. Yeah. Getting you confused now

[laughs]

Yeah, Grove Green Road. And erm, so one you’re around here it’s fairly quiet because you’re off that main road, which is where all the traffic used to drive down, before the M11 Link Road. And we said well, it’s gonna open it up to even more traffic, and that has happened. Especially round about half past four, five O’clock, you see it all building up, and erm, sometimes it comes to a complete standstill and you go past on the bridge or on the train, and you can see it all, and you think, yeah, told you so [laughs]

Yeah. Hm.

I’m sure they would have built something now that was more environmentally frieldly. I mean we even came up with the idea of building a sort of New York type of highway over the tube. That way they wouldn’t have had to interfere with any of the houses. It wouldn’t have been very nice for the houses living underneath though. I’m sure I wouldn’t have wanted to do that, but I did think that they could do a tunnel, for that short amount of distance, relatively speaking, you know [laughs]

OK. Well unless you’ve got any last words…

No, I think I’ve said everything I can say about it. I’ll probably think of something when you go, if I do I’ll let you know.

You can always email me.

Yeah.

OK. I’ll turn this off then. Thank you ever so much.

You’re welcome. I hope it interests somebody.

Name of interviewee: Rani Heinson

Project: Voices of Leytonstone

Date of interview:

Language: English

Venue: Interviewee’s home – 157 Colchester Road, Leyton, E10 6HG

Name of interviewer: Polly Rodgers

Length of interview: 02.04.12

Transcribed by: Kirsty Parsons

Archive Ref: 2015_esch_VoLe_04

Archive Reference: 2015_esch_VoLe_05

Archive Reference: 2015_esch_VoLe_05

Can you just erm… tell…can you just count to ten for me?

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10

Perfect ok, so, today is the 3^rd September 2015. Erm, can you just start by telling me your name?

I’m Doreen Golding

Can you spell that for me?

G O L D I N G

Fantastic and where are we now? The interview is taking place…

Oh, in Wanstead

In Wanstead, at your house

At my maisonette

At your maisonette [laughs] fantastic. Erm, ok, so to start with can I just get you to tell me a little bit about anything that you might know about you parents, about your grandparents

Oh well my grandparents well they were English born, er, the generation before them, this is on my mother’s side, er, would have come from possibly Poland, or erm… my father’s family would have been Polish because there they was Jacobovitch, which is more Polish than Russian, but then all the borders were changed and they came over in the late 1880s, er when Jewish people were coming out of Russia and Poland, er so that would be my great grandparents. Er, I don’t know too much about them, I have an odd er couple of photographs but my grandparents were born here and they lived, erm, they were quite pleased, they lived in the new tenement buildings… er which are no longer existing off of Commercial Street. Er, in a very infamous street called Flower and Dean Street, which rather got a bad reputation as like a generation from a bit before it was all in the Jack the Ripper area. Er, but they were very respectable, quiet mannered people, they were very delighted that they actually had an indoor toilet, which was something very nice, mind you it was adjoining the scullery where they cooked [laughs]. Er, and the front room… where they could sit and have their dinner, and a bedroom, so that was in the tenement buildings in Flower and Dean Street. And where my parents got married, erm, my father had come from Tottenham… he… they moved there, they lived for a little while, erm, I believe somewhere in Tottenham, Clapton way ‘cos I was born in the Salvation Army Hospital in Clapton. So erm…

Can I just stop you for one second, ‘cos I realised I didn’t ask you the year of your birth, which I should have done right at the beginning

Oh right, I can tell you it now

Can you just tell me now?

Alright, well my date of birth, I have a very famous birthday, I’m born on the 10^th June, which is the same day as the Duke of Edinburgh, definitely not the same year he’ll be 95 next year, I was 75 this year, so 1940 at the outbreak of the war, er, and by sheer coincidence my… that was the Second World War, my mother was born in 1914, at the beginning of the First World War. So sheer coincidence, and I often think how did my parents grandparents manage to survive having two world wars within 20 years of their life, unbelievable really

Yeah

You know, that they were young married, in say what, 1912, and then started a family in 1914, and then by the time their daughter, my mother, got engaged and married and I was born 1940, you know it… well, definitely it wasn’t any counselling those days, they certainly just had to get up and get on with it, and whatever you had you made the best of, so I don’t know what they’d think of today’s young people who I… I shudder to think [laughs]. But, as I say, I was born in Salvation Army Hospital in Clapton in 1940, I’m, all I… I only know stories, obviously I don’t remember far that far back, but the family, er, worked for erm a factory called Ellis & Goldstein which was based in Commercial Street, and the whole factory got evacuated down to Luton, so you went where your job was, the whole factory went they were… I don’t know whether they rehoused them, it must have done and the whole k… the whole family, the whole factory, went down to Luton and they must have had a factory where they all worked ‘cos I even meet people today, believe it or not, who actually remember being evacuated and living in, er, in Luton. They must be, good gracious, my mother would have been 100 last year, so these people are well in their 90s, er there’s a few still survived today. Er, and… nobody stayed away very long, you know, you read the books, people got evacuated but they wanted to come back, don’t know why, they wanted to come back. I’d suppose you’d have to live it to know why, ‘cos I know that by 1943 we were back and the only reason I know that is ‘cos I went to school, in… and I was 3 years old, you know, it was just one of those things and it was a school called Dill Street School. Er…

So sorry, were you evacuated to Luton?

Yeah, I was a baby in arms

To Luton?

To Luton. So I was… yes a baby, mother, father, grandparents, erm my grandmother was a tailoress, my grandfather was a, what we called a presser, ironed the clothes. My father was a cutter, my mother was a tailoress, and I was a baby in a pram [laughs], and er, 1943 we were back, went to school Dill Street School was round the back of… er, Hanbury Street in London, the school is still th… there’s still a school there, but at 5 I went to Commercial Street School, er, Can & Barnet School which is next door to Toynbee Hall, so all very, very… every… very close knit er community, all near one another, all within walking distance although I don’t think anybody had cars anyway [laughs]. And then in 1946 my parents wanted to come out of the East End, they then had a flat, not in erm, not in the Tenemant buildings in Flower & Dean Street, they were in the next street, Lolesworth Street, er but they decided time to move on to better themselves, erm my father had stopped working in the factories and had decided that rather than make clothes it was mainly coats, dresses and coats, he would erm… sew them… so he became a market trader er selling coats and dresses etc, and er in 1946 we moved and we came to, went to Gants Hill, which is not that far away from the M11 [laughs] down the road, er, when we got there er late ’46, ’47, er station hadn’t even been reopened after the war, because between Wanstead, Redbridge and Gants Hill you had the Plessey’s erm… munition factory underneath, they were building all the ammunition

Mmm

There was… that was sort of very famous, that they, Plessey’s who were, who did, made all the ammunition in the war, actually had a factory underground using Wanstead, Redbridge and Gants Hill, underneath in the station ‘cos the stations were closed, er, and that, when we moved to Gants Hill, the station hadn’t as yet been reopened. Er, and then er we lived there for… Gants Hill… 46-47, er I went to Redbridge Primary School, and then on to Bill Grammar which was in Ley Street, and then in coronation year, er 1953 at the beginning of the year unfortunately my father got killed in a road accident, by, near the Redbridge roundabout so my mother at the time, tried to make a go of it living er where we lived but decided that, no, we were going back to the East End of London, everybody wants to go back to their routes and go back to be with her mother and father, who was still living in Flower and Dean Street, so we went through very, very nice house and garden back to the tenement build… [laughs] it was a rev… reverse, what do they call it, reverse roll reversal, so we ended up going back and living in erm, er the East End of London, so I had to change my schools and I went to Central Foundation er which in, it was in Spitalfields Market

So you were about 12 then?

12, so yeah that’s it, yeah, yep 12 in yes. And er, but it was fated because er lived there for quite a few… couple of years and then of course I met my er first husband which I wouldn’t have met if I’d still been living in Gants Hill, so it was fated to be that I met him I was only 14-15 years old, he was going into the National Service at that time, every young man had to go in at er 18, and come out at 20 as a man, and they [laughs] and they had to do as their told, and I do believe they should bring it back! [laughs] and it’ll never come back ‘cos they went from stroppy teenagers, they weren’t allowed to answer back I think that’s what was the er, the beauty of it, you know, they had to do what they were told, it was ‘yes, sir’, ‘no, sir’, you know and they had to take to it, you know, it was compulsory er er and that’s what they er that’s what he did. And erm, when he came out we got engaged and married, and

How did you meet?

Pardon?

How did you meet?

How did we meet, at that time in the East End of London you had youth clubs so I… erm, he… belonged to I think Oxford and St Georges club which was in erm Fairclough Street, I belonged to Brady Street so erm it, Jewish youth there was a lot of Jewish youth clubs in that area because it was a… it was a population of mainly Jewish people at that time, obviously all immigrants all coming over and of course at that time you had more because of the Holocaust, you know, there was that other wave er Jewish immigrants coming into the, into the country. And er, yes, we met at the youth club, a youth club dance, as one would [laughs] and erm once we er got married and had family in 196…7, ’65 the boroughs changed, we had GLC and they had… it’s the fiftieth anniversary this year, isn’t it, of all the boroughs, er, that all, it was changing you know, Wanstead was no longer Essex it was Wanstead E11 and er, all the different boroughs were divided off again… at different areas er and ’67 then brought, they brought in an act of erm, slum clearance, where they want to knock down all the little old houses, little terraced houses, which is what we lived in at the time er near the Tower of London, and er… we were rehoused, we were ‘sposed to have moved to a block called Noble Court in Cable Street, it was purpose built and literally the whole little block of h… h.. was gonna move, everyone uplifted and moved to this block that was.. they had it all ready for us but it didn’t work out like that, people had a choice and it was time to mo… replan your life, I can only go for my, by my friend who lives in Australia, her father er worked at London Airport, he worked for the catering firm, I think it was one of the first catering firms that actually did the packed food on the aeroplane, ‘cos your talking, at the time, people we starting to go abroad. Er, and he said ‘right, everyday I’ve travelled from near the Tower to Heathow’ it wasn’t Heathrow then it was London Airport, you know, erm ‘we’ll move to Slough’. Another good friend of mine, her husband worked er with a, for a company that were in Hendon so we didn’t all, we didn’t, we really upset the apple cart actually ‘cos we didn’t go where we were ‘sposed to go, you know, they…

But that was your choice?

That was, we had that choice. I have to say erm, the council did try and er give you the old flannel, it used to be you have three offers and then we don’t offer you anything anymore, and it was a case of, ‘no, hang on, you may have given me three offers but your knocking my house down’ [laughs] ‘where am I going to go to? I’d like to go where I want to go to’

And that was possible in those, at that time?

That’s right. If you were prepared to pay the rent, now at the time we had a little house… right near the Tower now the rent for the whole house was £2.50

A…

Week

Week

But only one poun… no, £1.25 my mother-in-law lived downstairs, my father-in-law had passed away by then, and we lived upstairs. It was divided into two flats, so really our rent should have been £1.25, but because we paid for mother-in-law downstairs as well, ‘cos we wanted to, so it was £2.50. Mind you, the wages was about £8 a week, not that’s in proportion

Mmm

And, we said, right, we’d seen these flats being built er these were built in… ’65 but you couldn’t get away with it today, they were for the upper income bracket….

Officially?

Officially, I’ve got all the paperwork. The upper income bracket

And what did that mean at that time?

That you had to earn X amount, and you also had to have guarantors of two family, two people who owned their own property, property and if you fell behind with the rent they, well you’ll, you guarantor they had to pay it for you, you know, that’s what it was. Luxury flats, and the rent there was £7.50… these were £7.50, the flats opposite are £7.50. Their flats, these are maisonettes, houses were £8.50. We didn’t know how we were going to find that extra fiver, let alone an… we, in hindsight, if only I’d have found that other pound to go and have a house with a garden, just could not do it, could not do it. And the only way we could do it was literally cheat our way here. I mean, no one’ll put me in prison now after all these years [laughs]

What did you do?

No, I’m not… my husband did, he worked all the overtime he could earn and those, years ago you got paid weekly in a little brown envelope, little wage packet, with a wage slip, and inside you had, it was basic pay, overtime, total, and he said to the wages girl ‘Could you just put all into basic?’ [laughs] ‘just for one week’, so at least we could show a wage slip, that we could afford it and we really couldn’t, we reall… I mean, I, you didn’t work, I had three young children, you just didn’t, women didn’t work. It was a… a disgrace if your, you know, you had, whatever your husband earned, you had to manage on, and that’s all there was to it [laughs] you know, er, and it was a case of ‘yes’, you know, ‘no, you’ve got to go to work’, you know to actually cover the costs of the rent

So you went to work at that time?

Yes, that’s right

And what did you do?

Pardon?

What did you do?

Well very conveniently next to where I live, you may have passed it when you came here, it’s the George pub

No I came the other way

You came the other way, well next door is the G… I didn’t work in the pub, but next door they had just taken over erm what had been derelict for quite some time it was the old erm the old cinema which had become a b… erm a bowling alley but people had taken it over… er as… er a bingo club and they wanted a local lady to run it… so I just walked round there and I always remember the boss saying ‘come down with the other applicants, the lineup is at er such and such a, seven a clock whatever’ and I said ‘why is it Miss World competition?’ [laughs] That actually was gonna be on that week and I think they looked at me and thought, ‘oh my goodness’, well you know I mean they didn’t live anywhere near here. Er, within a month I was actually running the place [laughs] so, only ever worked there, I worked there for… from nineteen sixty… I moved here in ’67, they opened in ’68, it closed in ’88 but because the sign of the times became a ladies keep fit class, became… so I went to erm a health club, xxxx health club, the people who bought it over ran other health clubs, er Basildon, and all different places in Essex, I went down to… whilst they were refurbishing it, gutting it out as a bingo club, converting it into a ladies health club, putting in sauna and steam rooms, and a gymnasium, and aerobics studios etc. It’s amazing what you can do when you got builders, erm, I went down to Basildon, retrained, I’d always done the accounts, I mean I didn’t take the aerobics classes, I can assure you [laughs] mind you I was only in my fifties then [laughs] or sixties, erm, fifties. And er, went back in there, so I’ve never worked anywhere else, I worked there for 32 years

So what did you do, so you retrained as…

As.. a manager

As a manager

Yeah, I ran the bingo club as a manager erm I, one time the bingo club was actually er a subsidiary of M.. Mecca, so I became a a um, er, a chief cashier for Mecca er, self taught, self taught, accounts, PAYE, whatever I could put my hand to, I did, you know so er anything to pay the rent [laughs]

So you managed to make ends meet?

Oh yes, yes, oh yes, you’ll always get there in the end if you need to [laughs] erm, and as I say, ni.. erm in… twent… 2000, 2000 it closed, it’s been closed 15 years and would you believe yesterday they’ve just put all erm… er… I don’t even know what you’d call it, they’ve boarded it all up

Umm hmm

And I’ve had a word with the, the erm manager, the building manager and I said ‘what are you building in there?’ and they said it possibly gonna be a Waitrose

Aahhh

[laughs]

Well that’s a sign of the times! Isn’t it?

Yeah, yeah, innit? Right yeah, we’ve got Tesco’s we’ve got the Co-op and Sainsbury’s was supposed to be opening, we don’t need four supermarkets in a one street town like Wanstead. It’s only one high street [laughs]

Wow, yeah

And that, that’s took you up to date

So that’s taken me more or less up to date, and can we just go back a little and

Yes

I just want to ask about erm what your experience was, what it was like growing up erm in that Jewish area and were you…

Erm...

…practising, were you religious?

No, no no my father’s family er are. Erm no it was just part of your life, coming from the East End as as today it’s all Asian, that the area was all Jewish people it was just… normal population, you never thought anymore of it, you know, if you had a non-Jewish neighbour, a Christian neighbour, they were the ones that were the, not the outsiders, but they were the odd ones out, you know so it was just a place to settle, as it’s been proven again er by Banglatown

Mmm

It’s been renamed and you know it’s, why they hone in on that particular area, there must be other areas I would imagine but it’s just the area that I.. I particularly know, know. No it was you had your erm, in Brick Lane now, which it is a Mosque now, prior to that you had a Synagogue ‘cos I used to go to a Hebrew classes, before that it was a Church

Oh really?

Yeah

I knew that it was a mosque, I mean that it was a Synagogue, I didn’t know that it was a Church

Yeah, church prior to that, yeah the one in Brick Lane, yeah, the back or er S.. er er Christchurch at Spitalfields

Yeah

No it was ju.. you just accepted all Jewish sh.. er say Jewish youth clubs, er the Synagogues, you know a Synagogue on every corner like there's a Mosque on every corner, no different at all

As was it quiet integrated with the non-Jewish people around…

Well there wasn’t many many non-Jewish erm people there… it’s like today is the same with the Asian people, not many er European style people live there now, I don’t know it’s all changing the whole time, I don’t know if the Asian people move out, will it be Romanians, Polish, don’t know. You know, it’s just an er area where everybody seems to settle

Mmm

And then you know the culture takes over doesn’t it, they just clear one area and do something else, yeah [laughs]

Ok, so… maybe we should talk a little be about the M11 link road…

Oh my goodness, my favourite subject! [both laugh]

So you moved here in 196….7

7

1967

So… that, at that point was, were you aware of any inclining?

No, well having, obviously being the er, now the last 12 years or so being the Chairman of the local historical society you look back at the old postcards and you see that when they built this road that is now the A12, it’s been renamed outside my door Kingfisher Avenue, without our, any consent, I don’t know why Kingfisher Avenue [laughs] it’s got no connection whatsoever with Wanstead, I don’t think. Erm, there was only a dirt track, it was called er it was George Lane, literally you had the pub, which is still there, er that was the new pub ‘new pub’ 1904, the big pub that’s there now er beside it was just a small street called George Lane and going down George Lane, down what is now towards the Redbridge roundabout was a whole isle of little houses, little shops, and where the central reserve when I moved here was er dual carriageway, but it wasn’t a dual carriageway then, there was obviously another row of houses opposite, very na… and as I say, it, I’ve got pictures of the 1920’s where they started putting in the Eastern Avenue. It was always going to be… but it have never materialised… because when they did start setting up er all the information about where it was going they said, it was al.. you know the link road was always gonna be, you were gonna be linked. Of course the M11 wasn’t built either, when I first moved, there was nothing, you know, it was just an ordinary dual carriageway leading down to the Redbridge roundabout, but prior to that it had been George Lane, not in my time

So when was that, do you know?

Erm, the Eastern Avenue I’m thinking was in the late 20’s, when I started putting Eastern Avenue in, so it’s it was always, when you look back on the history of it, if, in hindsight, if you look back you knew it was always gonna happen

Mmm

But it didn’t happen in the ‘20s, ‘30s, ‘40s, ‘50s, ‘60s… it started, it was obviously put into action in the 90’s

And so when you moved here in the ‘60s you weren’t even aware of that

No, I was hesitant only in the way that, ‘hang on, I live on a main road’, yes, if you’ve got a main road, you’re gonna expect some noise, you know, erm transport, excellent so that’s why everybody wants to live in Wanstead, I look out my window I can see the underground station, I walk round the corner, there’s the bus terminus. The bus terminus has actually moved over the years, that used to be outside the George and the club where I used to work but also before my time, in the, the late ‘30s and ‘40s. It’s now by the swing park. So we knew we were gonna live on a… weren’t living in the heart of country but coming out the East End it was country enough for us. That was it, we were out in the country, people thought we’d, they’d never see us again. We had moved from, from Aldgate to Wanstead ‘Why you goin’ out into the country?!’ [laughs] and I don’t drive anyway I did learn to drive once, er, so I need, I need public transport. But, was a dual carriageway, didn’t look bad at all you know, you had the central reserve, er, reservation, you know and erm… the wall here was much further back, we had a lot more green outside our front… out the… [tuts, takes deep sigh] this is our back, but it’s the front [laughs] funnily enough my front door is at the back [laughs] It’s a funny situation, but when you looked out at the erm, before they’d put the road in, it was just a dual… all lined with trees, and the wall surrounding the estate was much further out but I’ll open the balcony door and you’ll go out and you’ll see for yourself, and I have got photos of that time, before it was done. I’ve actually got the day that I first heard drums, I’d heard of Twyford Downs, I knew they were comin’ and I actually, I’ve always got a camera on me and I could hear the banging [starts clapping hands], the cymbals and I got the photo of the first protesters walking passed here in 1993 [laughs]

Wow

And then every month, for, till the road was opened, ’97? No, it was supposed to open ’97, I don’t think it opened till ’99, it was two years over. Oh my god, my memories are coming back! Good gracious. Erm… er I took er views looking down the Eastern Avenue, looking that way, looking that, I did it from all angles once a month so the photos I’ve… there’s a lot of photos

Mmm, wow, yeah

A hell of a lot of photos. Umm, they were very clever, they set up the link office, at the beginning of the high street, they recruited a local man, so everybody was familiar with them you know, and to tell you that it was all for the good of the community and we’d all get wonderful compensation er you know…

Do you know, did you know the local man?

Yeah, everybody, yes and then he came, we get, he actually er came and gave a talk at the local historical society it’s so cleverly done, erm, I’m not saying you’re duped, but you’re duped. Er, it was always going to be, there was different options, they, they had all these models in the link office and it was gonna be… now is it gonna be an underpass outside the window of the council estate dwellers or is it gonna be a flyover over the local golf course? Now hang on, we know straight away whose going to win here [laughs] it’s not going to be the, the er… the over.. er head thing over the golf course is it? It’s gonna be outside our door. We were all leaseholders but, well, the people who became leaseholders with the right to buy in ’88 had to pay for their own double glazing, which we should have had to because obviously they’d had compensation paid, the council must have had compensation to cover the costs of the double glazing. Having said that the double glazing is so diabolical it wasn’t worth having [laughs]

Really?

Really, yeah. We really, I don’t think anybody quite knew what hit them, erm, we had all scaffolding, we were, we were like prisoners there w… the whole estate it was scaffolded over, and you couldn’t look out, it was, you were in dark… we really, they took liberties with us when you look back at it, I mean we didn’t take it sitting down but it was like fighting a losing battle really

And how long was it like that for?

Oh, well you say, ’93 it started, ’99 it finished so it was ju…

Er, but, the scaffolding…

[both speaking at once] The scaffolding… I’ve got it on the photos I could look, actually look it up and tell you but erm as I say when you, it was like a relief when it was all done, but as I say so much happened erm , it was all done in stages so you didn’t really notice too much about it, and what with the protesters and the tree and… [laughs] and the dongos[?] [laughs] and Wanstonia, the book on Wanstonia? I have a Wanstonia book

Oh do you? Oh yes

Oh yes

Is that here?

Ah, yes, I especially got that out for you. Wow [sarcastically]

[both laugh]

Wow! I didn’t even, I didn’t know about…

Oh right well as I say, four months, we had six years of it [laughs] And erm, when they knocked the lovely houses, the big houses down, over the road you know further back in Cambridge Park

On Cambridge Park Road?

Cambridge Park, I’ve got a few ph… I did go over there a coupla times and climb over and get into the house and take photographs, they were taken at the, there was like a lot of Edwardian fireplaces er and I took quite a few, I mean the photos aren’t brilliant you know at the time I’m glad I was climbing over and… it was quite sensational I mean we’d never seen anything like it, I have to say I mean my friend in Australia I mentioned earlier, er she phoned me one day, she said ‘I’m watching the news from England’ she said… [phone starts ringing in background]… ‘I’ve just seen George Green’ and it was so funny, and I said ‘yeah’, she said ‘where are you?’ I said ‘I’m there’. Don’t worry

I’ll just… I’ll pause this [Tape pauses]

Ooh it was a different life, I mean, you know [laughs] it was definitely happenin’, umm, as I say it was just a phase in your life that hasn’t… that’s faded away now, like everything else, um, you forget I suppose how bad it is, only last night I had to actually gettin’ the books out again I thought ‘did we go through that, we must have been…’ but there was nothing else you can do, not really. I-I marched down to City Hall with few of them

So, tell me, you just said it was sensational…

Yeah

…and you were talking about your Australian friend calling and wha…

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I…

Could you describe that? What it was like?

Yeah, I said ‘what do you mean?’, she said ‘oh, it’s on our news, it’s in Australia’, ‘cos she obviously visits here when she comes home, you know, and she said she put on the television and seen the George Green with all these police [laughs], ‘I can’t believe it!’ she says, ‘how come your little silly little Wanstead’, I always call it a one street town, ‘is on national tele… international television’! It really was sensational

So what was it like? Did you go down there often?

Oh yes, yeah yeah, we used… ‘cos it’s only over there Cambridge Park, we just used to walk over, but I think we got a bit indi… we got, we did get indig… indignant, because we had the Twyford Down lot, they didn’t live here, you know we just felt they was, they didn’t help us, our cause, they didn’t help our cause because they weren’t us, they weren’t residents they didn’t live here, what were they making all the hoo-har about? You know, there was a few that were for them, you know, saving the environment and not, you know, knocking down the tree. The tree was bloomin’ dead anyway the poor tree [laughs], I took enough photos of that blasted tree, and then it was just a, the trunk layin’ on the floor, you know what I mean? I know it became a symbol, I kn… I realise that but the protesters weren’t, there was a couple, but they weren’t the locals. We just felt that they were try.. Wanstead is quite… we’re quite quiet people [laughs] we don’t make a lot of trouble, we fight for our rights, but we just, we didn’t know who these weird people were, you know, they they were really… who are these people in Wanstead, you know, up trees with long hair and you know, they were a mess, they really were [laughs] I have photos of them, I’ve got photos of everybody [laughs] but erm, as I say, it was the fact that we didn’t know, and in fact, they’ve left it in a terrible state, in fact I wrote to them a couple of years ago and said, you haven’t even finished it off and they said that’s how we, that’s how it was meant to be left and that’s how it is, if you look out the window you’ll see it’s, it’s not finished off properly

Can you describe it? Just for the tape

Well it’s just, as I say, you can… I don’t how anybody hasn’t got killed they’ve tried to erm, er do a surround into it in like grey stone, they’ve never er er soundproofed any walls here, er they’ve put a bit of green weeds in but nobody looks after it, except the locals. We we’ve got a very nice group in Wanstead that tend the unattended greenery round here, and of course once you do it, the officials won’t do it because once you’ve done it that is it! You’ve had it. So there’s this… mess outside our door, you look down at it and it’s just not finished… you know it’s never been finished off properly, you could only photograph it to describe it, which I have and I’ve sent them photos and they said no, that’s how it as meant to be, well all I can say is if that’s how it was meant to be… another thing, we really got, I feel, I think it was the last motorway built, wasn’t it? The last time they, they ran out of money erm, or something like

Well they spent a lot of money

Well they wasted a lot of money, they wasted it. Down by Cambridge Park, opposite… where the houses, the big houses were, beautiful brickwork, outside here is rubbish [laughs] we really, this end really got the, we did get the end, bad end of the stick

And so the tunnels on the other side of the green…

The tunnels, outside? I’ll show you

The tunnels right outside

Ok, switch off if you want to

No, I’ll leave it running and hopefully it’ll be able to… we just walking over to the window and we’re going to look outside

I should have done this before you came actually... I keep the blinds down to put another layer of er protection

Against the noise?

Noise, I’m afraid it’s a bit dusty out there I do not go out there very often

[Sound of blind moving suddenly]

Oooh

Oh blimey, didn’t xxxx that tight enough. That shows you how much I pull the blinds up, hah. Don’t have a window open as you notice because if I went along that ledge where those photos are… you could go everyday. Sorry about this

That’s alright

That’s gonna pop down again, it’s not very often I put them up

That’s just slipping

We’ll get there, yeah, if it’ll just catch it just right. Even if I do it from theere it’s gonna plonk down on me head but let’s take a chance and see what happens…

[laughs]

…so we’ll get decapitated [laughs]

Yeah, worse things have happened

[both laugh]

Weeeell, blame, blame the M11 link road

Blame the M11, absolutely

Archive Reference: 2015_esch_VoLe_05

[Sound of traffic]

It’s quiet today, funnily enough

[Sound of traffic]

There’s the tunnel

There’s the tunnel. And that’s the green just there.

[Inaudible]… And that’s the bit that wasn’t finished off properly, see the green in the middle, they had people throwing things off the top onto cars, so they made that…[inaudible]… and there was a roundabout.

[Interviewee and interviewer are outside looking at the road from the balcony, only snippets are audible. They are talking about the roundabout being altered to allow lorries to get round it, and the shrubs that have grown near the edge of the entrance to the tunnel that prevent people from throwing rubbish onto the tops of cars.]

So, for the sake of the tape, we went out and looked at the tunnel, where the tunnel goes in…

And here I am, showing you the photo, which was august ’93, there I am, sitting on… I was very glammy in them days.

You were.

Twenty two years ago…

Beautiful.

And that was where that house is over the road. This is a shop, this was where the house has been built, can you see?

Yeah, yeah

And here they are.

And that was you sitting on the front.

This wall was further back. It would actually literally be where the wall is to the tunnel. In fact, we didn’t used to walk all the way round, we used to just over the…[laughs] It was quite a low wall. I was younger. And here, as I say, August ’93, that was the first…they boarded up the house, so we knew they were gonna come, and they the protests came.

And these are the first protesters?

That’s the very first photo – that’s the very first time we ever saw protesters.

Wow. And can you tell what their banner says?

Freedom to drive or freedom to breathe, Reclaim the streets. Yes, so where, I told you, the duel carriageway, this wall was literally there, so we’re looking down the Eastern Avenue, there’s out duel carriageway.

Ok. It’s tiny isn’t it? Kind of insignificant in comparison.

Yeah, so that was looking across, that’s looking down, and these photos I did every… when they started digging up the duel carriageway, started… and this is going right the way through…

And this is ’93, yeah.

Yeah, and then hell set in. Every time you came home something else was being built and dug up. This is every month. This is February ’94 now, and there’s the scaffolding going up over our buildings. And we are completely hemmed in.

Yeah. Blimey.

I know. People don’t realise really, what we went through. There’s the rest of the estate being scaffolded. It was every month for 6 years I took these photos. Same, obviously the position, looking out, the wall got knocked down, see.

So there’s one looking out over the road and one looking to the left and one looking to the right.

The other book is going the other way.

OK.

The dust and dirt, I cannot tell you.

Blimey. This went on for six years.

Six years. Whenever you went out you didn’t know how you were going to get back into your flats again, and they said ‘oh, you’ll get compensation’, I’ll have to look up the papers. It wasn’t much, not a lot, we really fought for it. The only thing is, all the um, lease holders, light the right to buy, we couldn’t buy the freehold, we lease it, you know, um they all had to pay, and at the time it was a lot of money, over three thousand pounds, for double glazing. I got my letter, I think it was £3,783 and I got my letter and it said £378, they’d left a digit off the end.

No!

So, er, I went to a solicitor and they said, ‘you got it in writing, pay the 378’. I said ‘well I’m gonna, and I’m not going to pay any more’, cos we shouldn’t… I think if I’d have had to pay the three thousand, I’d have fought it, I’d’ve fought it. You know, get people together to say ‘why should we pay for double glazing when obviously they’ve had the compensation money for it?’ And it was the only time when I thought, yes! I’d won something [both laugh].

That’s brilliant, so did they argue or not?

I just wrote to them and said ‘well, I’ve consulted a sol- who said as this is written… I got someone to write a very … and they said well that’s it, we can’t do anything about it. That was the only time I felt like I’d won something. But look, outside you window. Open your window and look what you’ve got. I mean I didn’t zoom, didn’t zoom in a t all, as you can tell. I just kept it the same. Our poor wall went, it was here and it came further and further back, and every month for six years. When people talk about knocking the houses down, I say ‘you should come and live with me’. The dust and the dirt. I can’t tell you. The traffic. Cos of course it couldn’t all go down the duel carriageway. As I say, six years, right the way through. Having to live with that for six years. No fair. It wasn’t. Honestly, it was not fair. You know, when you think about it, they were gonna build an underpass and an underpass it was gonna be, and that was it. You knew it was coming.

Wow.

That goes further…

So by this point there’s starting to be a tunnel. Yeah, the structure of the tunnel’s gone up

Yeah, yeah. The dust and the dirt. And they say, ‘well if you chose to live on a main road, what do you expect? It was always gonna happen…’ I’ll show you the other book. I think we were very brave. We were very brave.

You were.

What can you do, it’s your home, you know. Tah da! [pulls out a flyer for Grahame Miller’s artwork ‘Linked’] Linked, yeah, we were linked all right.

You were, weren’t you?

This was in our grounds, here. When you look out here, that’s a little opening where we walked through.

Mmhmm.

Rather than go all the way to the bottom to get into the flats. You drove here?

No, I cycled.

Oh, you said, yeah. So what happened was, years ago we had a very elderly person lived here, and she petitioned, she said, ‘my husband cannot walk all the way down and round’, and she fought till she got that little opening here and this was what they did here. This is from my balcony, just looking straight down… the scaffolding… same spot, where the little path is. Did you cycle down the little path? Or you went to the front of the flats?

I think I came down the little path, yeah.

Well there’s the little path there. I’m surprised anything ever grew again. I was …

It’s awful.

It really was, and I say, people say, ‘what you taking photos for?’ And I say ‘I like to just have a record of it! Know what they’re doing’. And of course all these photos correspond to the other one. They were in four separate albums, but I try to get them altogether.

Did you have a particular day of the month that you would…

I can’t remember…

At some point in each month

Yeah, ah! It’s August, let’s get out there. Let’s go out. You can see the walls now, of the tunnel. I suppose they did a wonderful job, I suppose.

In what sense, what do you mean?

You know, to build something like that, the engineering work of it. Now this, was looking that way.

Ah, ok.

So this, I came out of my flats and used to stand by the entrance, the actual entrance to the main estate, and just… this is the … there’s the block, there’s the main entrance into the estate, and there’s the duel carriageway

And it’s a very modest little carriageway, it’s not particularly offensive

No.no, no. And that’s when they came in and started digging up all the trees. And, as I say, we looked like cones. Same view, month after month after month [laughs]

Year after year after year

Traffic all diverged, go this way, go that way. When was that – ’96, whay! But the dust and the dirt, we did suffer, I must say. I s’pose… you spoke with people in Leyton and Leytonstone, different situation again, you know. But I have got the photos of the tree and all that as well. And they very kindly took us, the local residents into the tunnel. I walked the tunnel before it even opened, with a hard hat and a yellow jacket. Anything to keep the natives quiet! To show us what a wonderful thing they’d built.

Did you ever go into the Link Road offices?

Yeah.

And talk to them…what was their argument?

They were not there to… they were only there to just placate the natives I think, but it was a done job, wasn’t it, it was a done deed.

But what did they say? How did they go about trying to persuade you that it was a good thing?

It was already… it wasn’t a matter of even … you know, they were telling you what you were gonna get. You know, that was it. The decision had been made and er people were going in all the time, you know, ‘what’s happening next?’ More or less, what was happening was main…was coming across. But oh, no, most people…as I say, the local fellow, he was just brought in to, as I say, it was very clever to bring in somebody local, that was familiar. Didn’t know him personally, at the time, I mean obviously after 6 years you got to know him, but at the end I think he was the most hated man in Wanstead. Nobody was very keen on him! I can’t even remember his name…I can picture him. I think they moved away once it was all finished. I think they got very good compensation.

So tell me about the compensation issues.

I can’t remember. We all had to apply, we were told as council dwellers we wouldn’t get anything, I’m sure at one stage, but they said it wasn’t our property.

But you had the leasehold.

Yeah, but even...you know, even… I think they were trying to baffle us with science, you know, if they couldn’t pay out. I mean people down the road, way back… and it went by the value of your property, so whatever they gave, it was all in prop…a proportion of…you wouldn’t get the value of your whole property, because you don’t own the property, you only own your flat. Somebody down the road with a house quite set back from the road, they were getting thousands. I can’t believe…you know, honestly… somewhere in here is how much we got, but it wasn’t a fortune.

When we spoke on the phone, weren’t you saying something about you got…less compensation than the people on the other side of the flat…?

Yeah, flats didn’t, the houses did better than the flats. You know I don’t know whether it was in proportion, as I say they the baffled us there there’s all the paper work from day one. I kept it all.

Wow, you’ve got it all.

I kept it all, I don’t know if the book, you see this was the arterial road, so this is what this er WS Atkins were the contractors and this is the paper work you were first given and this as I say all about the how about all always anyway…they kept you well informed if you could understand what it was all about it, but it was a bit too technical for locals you know, it’s all about 1976 and this was this and this was going…

The department published a scheme with a revised highway layout.

[Moaning in agreement] we were contract four.

Contract four, contract three.

Yeah I mean, was you going to sit down and read it all I doubt it. When all we wanted to know we don’t really want it outside our window. And you know we knew, I mean it looked very simple there Gardner Close.

Oh yeah, so that your that you

Yeah yeah, any of this you know you want to borrow or takeaway your more than welcome, I am sure it will come back.

I would love too.

Yeah everything’s there that Atkins gave out, maps

Maps? That’s wonderful.

And high court challenge and every month they gave you something else to and cause it was the conservation area with Wanstead, there January ninety three and you got a newsletter every month, they were doing the right thing, they were letting you know [Laughs.]

They were letting you know but in terms of consultation what was that like?

No no no, it was a done deed.

Right from the beginning?

Oh I am sure yes, definitely looking back now and here we have one of the first meetings there they are all finished walking I came down out the flat and went over there and took photos and they were all sitting on the green.

So this is on the George Green?

Yes this is the Twyford lot.

The Twyford lot.

The Twyford lot [laughs.]

So erm erm you calling them the Twyford lot and your also saying the word dongers what’s that about?

I think they called them dongers at the time, yeah I think that was the name, it seems to have back into my brain and they were just…and here this is interesting what they were doing.

Oh there’s a Road Breaker Magazine.

The treeee, yeah whatever I could get hold of.

Oh that’s the ‘Dear Tree’ pamphlet, I’ve heard allsorts about this, I haven’t seen one yet.

Oh well, the Evening Standard here we are that’s the famous picture

Everything yeah yeah.

[Laughing.]

Amazing.

The bloody tree was dead anyway [laughs] oh dear.

Demonstrators and police clash in Wanstead today angry looking…

Well they lived in the tree, they lived in there, I kept all the whatever papers local papers mainly yeah.

So what was it like living with this on your doorstep?

Ohhh [laughs.]

So there was the road, obviously that was horrendous .

Yes.

How did the whole protest side effect you?

Well I think we we kept well away we didn’t want to be near them you know we just wanted to avoid trouble you know really, when you know they’re all going on about this tree you know alright and they’re all crying over the tree and I thought ‘oh my god you go away and I am left with the tunnel [laughs] how very logical we were the mess over the green argh terrible absolutely so…yes I’ve never seen so many Police in my life.

And there…

There’s the houses, this is my legal bit [laughs.]

So so what what is this you…

These were the big houses which aren’t there anymore erm.

On Cambridge Park Road?

Park yeah were they got nice brickwork and these just before the night before they pulled them down.

And you crept in and took photos [laughs.]

Crept in [laughs.]

Brilliant, so we’ve got pictures of beautiful…houses.

Yeah you know it was I mean I mean you can see that’s Ennerdale that’s opposite you can see were that’s that’s the notices so you know…got a feeling that was Alan Cornish’s son I think he was a councillor and his son was one of the protesters, I’ve got a feeling that was his [laughs] I must have been crackers I could of got killed [laughs.]

[Laughs.]

When I was twenty two years younger.

[Laughs] and that’s so this is.

This is where the houses were behind there, this is…

So this is Cambridge Park?

Yeah the other side yeah.

And it says Wanstonia free and then there’s Leytonstonia.

Leytonstonia, yeah you had Leytonstonia yeah towards there yeah…the bailiffs came in and they were sitting on the roof and they were waving flags and I quite honestly though ‘they don’t even live around here’ [laughs] we could have done without them all sat on the roof.

So do you think it would have been easier to fight your cause without them then?

We we could it was you couldn’t of won anyway but really I mean look you know, they didn’t help matters [laughs.]

The last stand for rebels in battle of Wanstonia.

Yeah, oh we had everything oh the reporters wanted all out stories and would give you know and I thought to myself you know they are gonna go away when it’s all done and dusted they are going to go away and we are going to be left with it and that’s how you felt.

Hmmm.

All they did was bang these blooming drums you know they were quite our you know.

So there wasn’t much communication really between local people?

Some people made pals with them, the lolly pop lady she she lost her job and they reinstated her because she was always over there with her lollypop fight lets save Wanstead, she was very much into it Jean, you‘ll probably find have you met Jean?

I haven’t met her yet but I am really hoping to meet here.

Oh yeah old Jean she goes on the bus sits, she’s retired now yeah I know Jean, well yeah oh no she was going to save Wanstead she really was yeah, she was very much into it at the time I don’t know if I have any pictures of her here, you see she got the sack and got compensated and they reinstated her

She got compensated?

I am sure she did but as I say she she, well that was remember I took a picture of me sitting on the wall, that’s was outside.

That was okay just across the road.

I went in there as well, I went it in there and fell and went inside, so they made it into a shop front with t-shirts and I took a picture of inside over at my flats.

Oh so this just for the tape recorder, this is an erm.

It was a shop.

A shopfront.

Yes.

Opposite the flats we are in now

There’s a new little house been built were it would have been there.

Was it squatted then?

Yes yeah they took it over.

They took it over and it says Wanstonia rising it’s called Wanstonia rising apparently, and they’ve got

T shirts.

Anti-road t shirts and posters.

It was like that for quite a while, so I just went in and said mind if I take a photograph [laughs.]

And what were they fairly friendly?

Yeah that’s them there, I just said you know can I take a photograph, this was my main project was the fountain I didn’t want to lose the fountain I fought to keep the fountain.

So where was the fountain?

The fountain is where it is now.

The fountain’s still there?

Yeah yeah but its where I said it should go believe it or not that was so funny, they moved it oh I must have gone on someone else’s flat, oh yes I went upstairs to Harry’s flat in the block and di a picture when they were digging the hole [laughs] No I’ve got all these.

All these Road Breakers.

But as I say that’s when they were knocking the shop down opposite, you can see roof to the house there, you see the shape of that roof, there it is there.

Oh yeah.

So it’s…

Yeah.

You’re more than welcome as I say there’s a enough there for you to everything there.

There is a lot, you’ve got it all.

And that’s when we from the historical society we put a little tree bag and.

Oh did you.

Then it knocked over and we had to put another one there [laughs] no it was symbolic its symbolic I had to be part of the history you know we did so ninety four.

And was it also a sweet chestnut? Was it the same?

I don’t think so I think it was what we could get hold of [laughs] oh jean hang on here’s jean, erm picture on the side of the queen is jean, she’s dressed up. I thin k she loved it and and husband Ron, she dressed up as a Victorian.

What, why were they dressed up as Victorian?

I just try and think why they did that, oh they did they delivered a speech first given by queen Victoria in Epping Forest on May the sixth hundred years ago, so hundred years prior to that the queen had given Epping Forest to the nation hadn’t she.

Which declared the forest to be the property of the people.

Of the people yeah, but it’s not it’s owned by City of London [laughs]that was on the television that time and who were we filming , that one of that’s somebody I knew and I think on that one this I don’t know if I think my niece was somewhere there but as I say.

Was your niece involved in protesting?

Yeah, funny I saw her at an engagement party on Sunday I said are you free on Thursday says why I say I could do with you so I am going to work I’ll tell you what you were, she was always climbing up trees, she was very much into the environment she lives in the village Walthamstow Village, she does the green the gardening every year she’s very much into the green, I mean those that believe in it they love all that environment and the green and the trees and they still build a tunnel[laughs.]

[Laughs.]

This bloke when he went and laid himself under the, oh dear, he laid himself under the lorry under the… he didn’t want it to move so he laid himself I remember that he laid himself underneath.

Do you know who it was?

I don’t know him personally no, just this man and they said he was quite by the wheel, but he bloody laid under there what did he expect [laughs] yes this is all outside our flats, why can’t they leave our neighbourhood alone. No as I say people were…what can I say erm I accepted the inevitable but when that’s outside your house you know you’re it it’s a done deal isn’t it when you see things like that [phone rings in background.]

I’ll just pause this again.

Another 0845.

No okay we’re ignoring it. I’ll still pause it actually until it ends.

Go away, I don’t know what happened there something slipped. Don’t trust pritt stick it doesn’t last forever.

[Laughs] no.

Taking it around

Ohhh.

There’s there’s the post, I’ve got the postcard anyways.

No I haven’t got the postcard that’s excellent.

There’s Jean again.

Yeah.

There’s Jean again, but I have actually got the, I’ve got that stuck in my post card collection.

Okay, so there was…

Postcards…they must have had good money, money behind them people were backing them

Yeah.

There you are.

So who’s this from? This is a letter…

This must have been from Jim, Jim XXXX I refer to your complaint regarding the fencing outside, we all went in every day that weekend Gardner Close and the state of your lawns, what does it say the resident engineer tells me that the gas and electricity mains are still blah blah whatever.

Still to be re-laid.

Re-laid probably the work will be going on for another three weeks, work…everybody went in every week and had some complaint about something obviously with it all going on, but how many times can you go in over the course of six years. Silence in the lands…now when I phoned you you didn’t expect to see this did you?

I didn’t, this is amazing you are a true historian. You’ve documented everything.

Well they did come from erm the Museum of London they scanned some of these photos, I must have complained again [laughs.]

[Laughs.]

Further to your complaint regarding what it is debris and accumulation of rain water in the area just oh, as they took up you can imagine look.

That was just filling up it was trenches filling up with water.

Yeah, see that was the wall.

Yeah.

The walls coming backwards…as I say it wasn’t fair but then again as I say I suppose if you live in a place that was further down the Eastern Avenue that’s Reydon [shuffling] yeah they always had gas leaks laughs.]

Oh wow.

Obviously they were digging, what happens in Kingsway the week wasn’t it the other month and there everything got ignited link road fire traffic your going to hit pipes and things aren’t you.

Yeah.

I mean they’re quite boring after a while the same with XXXX I don’t think I’ve got many more pictures they stayed in Wanstead I saw him the other day, he took over at the bottom of our road, it used to be the bike shop that’s right at the bottom by erm Snaresbrook Station used to be bike a bike shop and then came a music centre and he squatted in there and he lived there for ages he kept being thrown out but after he settled in Wanstead he was the only one that did settle in Wanstead, I don’t know where he came from.

So do you do you have more sympathy for him having stayed in Wanstead, does that…

Probably suited him you know I am very er there’s that little part you would have come down, no I suppose it suited him there he is yeah but as I say I saw him the other week he was walking down the high street and I thought ‘oh your still here’. Yeah Leyton… and yet the flats always looked nice they always looked nice from the outside.

Hmm.

What was this one? So the other book is all about mainly the fountain, what what happened with the fountain they had to move it to build the road, so to move everything so it got lifted all in one go what a job that was and moved back moved further onto the green whilst they were building and it was going to be stood there or so long. And of course when it come to putting it were it should be [laughs] cause I was the only with the photos who knew were it was going to go, it was funny this crane this blasted big fountain and all of sudden some said ‘Dawn where should we put it?’ I said ‘I won’t even answer that question’ [laughs.]

So did you erm I mean what the significance what was the historical significance of the fountain?

Well the fountain was put there for the erm…Diamond Jubilee I believe ninety seven yeah 1887, I think it wasn’t the golden I think it was the diamond and of course it so significant because as I say next week the Queens has just beat Victoria.

As the…

You know was the longest reigning monarch

….As the longest reigning monarch yeah

There’s loads, these two books will do [laughs] Just as I say, I am trying to find these [shuffling] I think what has happened now oh yes that’s when he took over that music shop, as I told you at the bottom.

Oh yeah.

They made it real yeah.

Environmental, environmental centre.

Yeah they made it into that yeah yeah obviously must have had some substance some type to erm. We actually put on the display the historical society just to let people know there I am, must have had a curly bob.

[Laughs.]

Just to show them what we were doing and we oh here it is here’s the tunnel there the fountain, everything is so near in Wanstead. That’s where I worked there’s the George my flats are next door.

Right, so the…

As I say the fountain has been move before even when the made the dual carriage way so they had to what a feet of engineering I mean to actually hoist it it he worked so hard this man I have to say, he he was one man on his own we used to take him over cups of tea [laughs]

Awww [laughs.]

And it was amazing…anything to get a photograph [laughs.]

[Laughs.]

Erm you know amazing ow they did it, too lift the whole thing not to you know take it to the thing like that they take it down bit by bit.

But they just lifted the whole thing up?

The whole thing up amazing what they did, I was down the hole we found quite a few erm I display afterwards because underneath there had at one time a little pond, er wasn’t anything of great significance underneath but there was broken crockery clap pipes usual thing you find, so that was quite good fun for us really to find some artefacts so there we are. They dug a hole here to move it into.

So it literally moved a few.

A few yards back yeah.

…a few yards back.

But what a feat of engineering to even do it you know so yeah look.

Wow.

To actually lift.

So they scaffolded the whole thing and they lifted it on a crane.

They gone underneath got those you know amazing absolutely what am I doing I doing in the van? I don’t know.

Driving [laughs.]

I don’t even drive, shell suits were definitely in that day [laughs.]

[Laughs.]

Funny how the fashion changes, look at these it was I mean at the time you didn’t have, I mean I had a cine camera but you wouldn’t be able to see you know, when you think now on your phone you can video the whole thing couldn’t you.

Yeah.

Look how they lift it, I’ve got photographs as I say know body else has got [laughs] or would have taken look at this.

Yeah, you clearly just had a very particular interest in the fountain.

Yeah that’s right.

In the fountain yeah.

Well I was living in what was happening erm people don’t think the road but it was other things involved. You know it wasn’t just knocking down houses or making our life a misery it was thrilled with himself.

So why were you, tell me a bit about why you were practically interested in the fountain?

Well I am as I say chairman of the local historical society and it was important to preserve the fountain, very important er as I say 1887 in queen Victoria diamond jubilee er we wanted it as conservation area believe it or not [ laughs] even though they build a tunnel outside. Er so no no at was something at least we could save, we couldn’t do much about the road, we we’d fought the good fight and hadn’t won erm campaign celebrating twelve months of protest, they were here a fair while.

What’s this?

I don’t know what that would be, the lost tribe some card somebody sent me, right what is it that’s promised as in the name of the compensation consultant argh yes now this brings something back to me. We were all we got letters, you know like how they do now on the television now with erm if you’d had an accident at work a solicitor so we were all bombarded with letters with solicitor letters I think my mine was this one I was no this one was I was going to say Devon no it was Somerset and it was a case of erm it would cost you nothing erm but they would obviously get there share out of the compensation so obviously I wonder who this person was because I can’t.

[Di?] McGetric

[Di?] somebody named [Di. A?} would like to see their letters please pop round any time. So erm

It’s a it’s just to put it in context it’s a very pretty little card.

…Card yes very nice card

With a picture of a lake on the front and it’s all hand written lovely hand written card on the inside.

…Card yeah

It says ‘Dear Doreen as promised I have here the name and phone number of the compensation consultants we have registered with’. So obviously, that was the people er they felt happy to be registered with erm.

A12 to Hackney M11 link road compensation claim, if you would like to see their letters please pop around anytime.

Okay, so this is from a neighbour this isn’t from I see I see.

No no they must have .

I thought that it was very odd that I thought it from the compensation company

Yeah yeah there maybe something in here you know, as I say there’s a lot more books, I will I will if you’re going to continue I will you know even for a later date I will find out more things erm .

Wonderful, they wished us all happy New Year [Laughs.]

[Laughs] what now why have I got a beautiful card with a I never ever opened it, I think they I think at the time erm people were in to taking photos and making cards of local areas because we were losing it so quickly and I thought people were probably erm doing things like this er you have rush were everyone does something and decided will it be with us forever lets a photograph and make a card er I’ll show you something else that I am still looking for where was this I have no dear [mimics a victory noise.]

Now there’s the trunk, there’s the trunk.

And nobody would dare touch it and it was there for years.

Oh wow was it, yeah it’s only been removed relatively recently.

Yeah only yeah yeah.

And I just want to read this because I says I interviewed her Maureen Measure recently.

Oh Maureen funny I’ve got her membership card, cheque this morning for the historical society, yeah the name says Maureen, Bill did you meet Bill?

Yeah Maureen had a lovely time, well done Maureen Measure thank goodness someone has preserved what’s left of George greens two hundred and fifty years old sweet chestnut tree. Aw.

Yeah because her and her husband are chairman of Leyton and Leytonstone historical society that was funny I got their cheque this morning because they re-joined our one yeah.

[Laughs.]

As I say that’s where they blocked all across there, they were digging underneath obviously.

Hmmm.

No no they fought the good fight I must say, I just felt erm as I say everybody I wouldn’t say has their own stories but it affected everyone in different ways. As I say I just felt I lived with it, I couldn’t of been any nearer if I tried, I am trying to find.

But did you do any protesting or resisting in anyway? You said you marched…

We went to city hall and I am trying to think what we went for, we sat oh oh I will find it, I think it was maybe the compensation, I went with Doreen have you met Doreen Jenkinson? Oh you will have to meet her she lives over the road. Oh she was a fighter.

Was she?

Oh yes yes you’ll to look Doreen you’ll have to find. Doreen Jenkinson I can gave you phone numbers [laughs.]

Wonderful wonderful.

And if you say you’ve spoken with Doreen from over the road.

Yeah, she’ll know.

She’ll know who it is, I am just trying to find oh this was [mumbles] as I say never seen so much Jackson fencing in my life, I said it’s got a different camera take panoramic photos.

Oh yeah wow.

That’s quite a few years ago and lots of things have happened to me since erm…there’s a lot more I must have the original letter that says we can claim for compensation erm and how we got it in the end. I can’t remember even it couldn’t of been a fortune. Oh yeah they complained about the widths of the footpath and it is still miles to narrow I mean one day a bus is going to come around there and knock somebody flying, but what did they say always an accident waiting to happen.

Hmmm.

Erm nearly there as I say this is the only two books I got out, what was this?

[Laughs.]

What do we do now? There he is, Brazier his name was.

Brazier? Who is he?

He was the man who was in the link officers.

Ohhh.

Just came back to me, what was his…I can’t think yeah because as I say I’ll fish out the photos were he took us all down the erm down the link tunnel to placate the the.

Was that the guy you said…

Yeah that’s the on yes he still lives in Wanstead.

So David Thornton.

Yeah.

Thornton he faces jail with his efforts.

Yeah but erm as in say it was me I am trying to think who else, there was a dozen of us who got invited to go down so I must have been protesting I must have my my voice must have been heard but I didn’t do anything drastic I don’t think as I say it was definitely a hard hat job erm when we went down. I had Doreen Jenkinson, Jean Gosling and Brenda XXXX she hasn’t heard don’t know what happened to her, I haven’t seen her recently but Doreen lives opposite and Jean yeah they went missing when some of the trunk appeared back again possibly wasn’t even the same trunk [laughs.]

[Laughs]

I am very cynical yeah because they were going to make a bench out of it.

Yeah.

They were only going to do with it the final stand.

Wanstonia that was on Fille was that Fillebrook Road?

Erm possibly yes yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah they suffered down there yeah as I say I am trying to think were you meant I’ve always called it [Farleybrook?] not it is Fillebrook Road.

Oh is it Farleybrook?

No no some people call it Farleybrook some [mumbles] Fillebrook. This is only up to say ninety five.

Oh.

The cows…the cows came we always had the cows always wondered into the estate because they from then they got rid afterwards they had to take them all to move them up in to Epping Forest.

Where were they coming from?

Erm they always roamed around here they straight from Walston flats, you could seem them walking down Blake hall road, I’ve got pictures of me and my husband and my eldest grandson chasing them outside moving them on. They always came wondering about, we were quite countrified at one side, that’s outside this window [laughs.]

Wow.

Yeah so as far as I can tell you up to there…then that’s ninety five we won’t go any further [laughs.]

[Laughs.]

I think that’s enough for now don’t you?

But I well yeah maybe enough pictures [laughs] but did I say I was going to about your other things

Argh well that doesn’t go back quite as far.

[Laughs.]

Not quite as far, coming up the end of this year beginning of this year will be twenty years I’ve been doing the pearly work.

So just to just to put that into context, I came into the flat a couple of hours ago.

Yeah [laughs.]

Maisonette.

Don’t forget maisonette I shall make another cup of tea in a minute .

And I walked into the living room, can you just describe the living room for me?

Well it is a new you said the right thing and it has been called it before and when anybody comes I will say ‘welcome to the museum’ now it hasn’t been decorated in I cannot tell you how long, but it’s been kept clean erm because it started with one picture on the wall many many years, well I can tell how many years ago my erm granddaughter is the baby in arms in that middle photograph there with ladies and a baby. The lady holding the baby is my mother who would have been hundred next year if she, there’s me my contact lenses in no glasses, my oldest daughter and her daughter so we decided the four woman four generations were all the oldest, Katy is two there and she is now thirty two a married woman with two children of her own, so there photos of my great grandchildren. But the wall in my front room started off with one photograph, gradually grew to wedding photos erm my daughter, two daughters and then I was a young widow and I re-married so er there’s also my photograph for to my second husband, who’s obviously not the father of my children and then we got involved in the pearly work work charity work both my husbands had been cab drivers London taxi drivers who do a lot of charity work anyway, we are still aligned to erm a big taxi drivers charity that we support anyways but the pearly work came about my granddaughter the baby in the photograph when she was twelve er was a member of the Haverette Marching Band and they got invited to go to Macy’s Thanksgiving Parade as they token foreign band because American parades are all about America. Hundreds of people twirling and swirling and throwing people up in the air [laughs] they sent a video to Macy’s they been invited because they’d been national champions erm they said well there’s about fifty girls in the band that was maximum at the time but it’s a big parade we need er a London scene and of course the classic words was always ‘my grandma’s a pearly queen’. So we ended up that was ninety six so next year is twenty years that we set forth as pearly queens and kings to erm represent England in Macy’s thanksgiving parades, which was rather sensational I I must say. And even the parents of the girls in the band all put there pearl made their pearly outfits because they didn’t have titles on their back. Erm we worked hard for out titles my husband and I sound like the queen don’t I my husband and I [laughs.]

[Laughs] well you are you’re the pearly queen.

Yeah yeah yeah so street royalty we say street royalty. And erm we used to we were introduced into the pearly movement by pearly queen of Redbridge being the borough I live and she was a lady on her own, we used to erm give her a hand helping her at the time she was always doing singing at the time there’s great big massive speakers and you know all of her equipment that had to be taken into where every she went, residential homes she used to attend a residential home my late mother in law was and she asked if we would like to become her pearly prides that’s official pearly helpers and worked towards earning a title. Now earning a title you don’t just er put on a pearly suit, you can put something on trimmed in buttons which are very expensive but you’re on a two year probation so possible your first job would be here is a Sainsbury’s or supermarket erm we are collecting today for whatever charity and erm you stand outside there for a couple of hours goodbye here’s the collecting box don’t forget you mustn’t shake it , shove it in peoples face you just stand there and if people want to give they will gave. That’s usually the wettest day of the year [laughs] you stand dripping wet, the two hours sometimes become four hours could become six hours, your either breaking your neck for the loo or busting for a cup of tea and after about six hours they’ll come back and take the collecting box off you give it a shake and say ‘you haven’t done very well’ [laughs] and at the time you want to punch then in the nose but one has to keep smiling.

[Laughs.]

And that’s how they are really testing you out to see if you’ve got the stamina really and you can finish the day the same as you started erm they can be…

So wat what year was that you started?

Ninety sixish er yeah because it’s coming up to twenty years. You can only do full time charity work once you’re retired because you go out in the week you know in the middle of the week otherwise you’re a weekender when you finish work and erm no we worked hard to get our title and erm which we are very proud because er years ago it was always handed down, there family title but not always to your family used to be father, son, mother, daughter. A lot of people pearly kings and queens obviously move d out of London erm and didn’t keep up er the tradition so those titles have literally faded away er not a lot of people hand their titles to other people but you must er like everything else you want to bring it back again, don’t want it to die out you mustn’t forget the old traditions it’s a very important part of London tradition pearly kings and queens looking after self-help and looking after others you know, you’ve got to be willing to help anybody all the time.

And do you know what the origin of the pearly king?

Yes I can my dear [phone starts ringing] oh here we go. One double nine four [phone conversation] oh hi. [Audio Break] Right, oh yeah the history well east London people think South London and they are all wrong. Our founder is called Henry Croft, when you get back home I am sure you have a computer you can google Henry Croft you can google me if you like you’ll be…

I will.

It amazes me what and I think I am signing on YouTube somewhere and I don’t sing [laughs] and erm Henry Croft was born in Somers town, Somers town is back of Kings Cross erm just ordinary workhouse boy just very poor boy, poor family they all used to go in the workhouse and at thirteen he went out to work as a road sweeper, road sweeper for Camden and he saw that the costermongers, the costermongers being the market sellers. Cost of being an apple, monger, merchant a vendor a seller so apple sellers because that’s what they that’s what the first costermongers did they sold fruit and veg you know cheap and cheerful erm what you don’t sell you can always eat I suppose, that’s how I looked at that. And in every little community you had a market a hospital a church so you started with self-help, helping the people around you he swept in Camden Market saw the costermongers which er who did at the time was the fashion, they wore their waistcoats and a flat cap and a pair of trousers erm and they got into the habit a Victorian style of pearls, real pearly obviously poor people couldn’t. So they would trim their outfits with buttons just really draw attention to get people to come over and buy their wears erm were he got his ideas from nobody knows I mean he decided that he liked their concept, the way they were working I mean you know he was just an ordinary whether he could read or write I don’t we don’t even know you know it’s all hearsay and erm he encouraged them to help him to collect for charity. He wanted to give something back to the workhouse in seventy in 1974 they actually found one of his original suits in an attic in Romford. Because it’s not that long ago he was born in 1862 he went out out to work at thirteen in 1875, he died in 1930 so he was you know it’s not that long ago. His great granddaughter Donna and the children, Donna I sometimes see erm great granddaughter I see her at the train in Stratford going up she lives in Dagenham somewhere. But she has been doing it for quite a while, although her little girls have now grown up you’ve got to make three outfits then hers her husband would have to do his own. So erm it’s just something that grew, we could you can look up on the Pathe News of Henry Crofts Funeral, following the cortege is four hundred people dressed in pearly outfits, how it spread no idea but every market every borough had a pearly family a king a queen, princesses because they had such big families in those day, princesses, princess erm just giving for charity he really started something, I don’t he would of thought it would of grown so big but then again as I say you’ve got wars erm things die out things come back again and the pearly kings and queens today that I know erm apart from George pearly king of Newham whose father was a pearly king before him, we are all virtually first generation pearly kings and queens, but then we’ve got children, grandchildren and great grandchildren. So erm we can’t say, my parents as I told you earlier were in the markets, so that’s my only link to that type of life, that they were market people.

Hmmm.

And Henry Croft knew the costermongers the market people pushing barrows through the streets of London.

But your parents weren’t pearly kings and queens?

No no no not at all no as I say, George, George Davison pearly king of Newham his dad was pearly king of West Ham. Erm and if you come again another day I’ll get you a book and I’ll show you a picture of him and his father [laughing.]

And are your children?

They are my grandchildren on the wall, my daughter my eldest daughter erm has taken part in the New Year’s Day parade and Lord Mayor’s show, these are three of my grandchildren there.

Oh yeah.

Erm that my great erm that my nephew Dan erm Mark that’s Mark and that erm Michael, Matthew and erm Jemma, Jemma oh there they’ve grown a little bit there [laughs] erm.

And your daughter?

Daughter, my oldest daughter has a pearly outfit I’ve got her hat upstairs actually, put a few more feather son it [laughs.]

Are they still around here or have they?

What’s that my children?

Your children.

Oh well my daughter lives in they like Essex way.

Okay yeah.

Yeah yeah so erm I hope they’ll continue, if they continue on the pearly they’re still very charitable minded which you know is obviously nice you don’t have to dress up really.

That’s a nice thing [laughs.]

I have to say that quite erm we do support people at St Joseph’s hospice erm you know when you think of the volunteers I mean this young woman here just phoned me from an air ambulance erm they are all volunteers, they are most they are what you called what you call the unseen erm heroes you don’t see them we are a bit more flamboyant the idea with Henry Croft you dress up you showed yourself off. It was originally to say come and buy my wares but then it was we are collecting for a charity come and help us. So erm you know there’s a purpose to everything I suppose, but the volunteers but I see so many different volunteers erm and they all they are wonderful, without volunteers I don’t what this country would do quite honestly. You know so it’s a marvellous thing that they do do. [Hesitating] sometimes mainly so with a hospice yes you may have lost somebody and you want to erm it’s giving something back or it’s your last link to the hospice you know and that type of thing or variety you may erm know somebody or yourself got a child with special needs so you want to support them and its its all kind of charity work.

But you’ll support any charity?

Any charity well what what it has to be like a registered charity because many it’s you know they seem to set them up so quickly now with the you know people we are a charity ourselves, we belong to you erm have to register with the charity commission as well but we always say we will give our support to any charity that wants our support. As I say if it’s going out collecting or raising awareness erm or whatever yes no no we help anybody everybody [laughs] we try.

What’s the strangest charity [laughs.]

Strangest charity? Oh that’s an unusual, strangest charity? I suppose it would to be an animal one I would have thought, no not necessarily erm strangest charity? No no they are all mainly national charities that people know erm you know collecting for erm we are doing right now, thank goodness it’s nearly finished after eight years erm they erm memorial at Bethnal Green, I don’t know if you have heard of it? Stairway to Heaven.

Yup yup.

Erm after eight years I think I think we are nearly there. I mean that was a terrible tragedy when you think of a hundred and seventy three being killed going down the underground you know, one on top of another.

What did happen? [inaudible.]

They they gathered somebody tripped up and maybe possibly erm a woman with a baby in her arms and everybody has fell on top and suffocated. You know so they say there were no handrails or whatever.

When was that?

Well its seventy two years ago so I think seventy they had hoped to do it by the seventieth anniversary. They say people kept it hidden but in the war you wouldn’t have advertised to the army that you had a big tragedy, they would be laughing they would be think ‘oh good’.

Hmmm.

You know so but I do feel, we have got still a couple of survivors about there’s Alf and a nice lady we always speak to. Erm they were so young at the time, I mean they are in their nineties now erm it should of been done sooner but this things cost so much money and you know red tape and got important the stone and we’ve we’ve just paid the pearly’s one of the conicals erm on the erm actually on the roof of it erm to represent like stairs to heaven, stairway to heaven and dedicated to one of the people that got killed erm with the you know so its money all money. And I hope it will be kept clean and tidy. That’s a thing with a memorial is it’s got to be maintained after.

Yeah, absolutely yeah.

Yeah I should have to think on that one, you’ve got me thinking there [laughs.]

[Laughs] wow it was kind of flippant question.

In the two thousand that was at erm the millennium year, see my husband is sitting and riding and driving a donkey and cart because obviously that’s associated with the pearly kings. Once you got on in the world you owned a donkey and cart and we knew that we were going to Battersea erm for the millennium parade and it was fun and they said will you meet us there and we thought we going to walk alongside the donkey and cart and they said ‘no no up you go’ and little strips of seating I don’t know how he sat there my husband [laughing.]

[Laughing.]

I didn’t know what was going to happen next, we did it we did it. I’ve driven anything like that before he was always tap dancing and singing my husband.

That’s your husband?

Yeah yeah there and that photo was on the internet the other week, I printed it off I got someone to print it off for me and that was at erm I think that was they golden jubilee that photo, it’s about thirteen years old that photo. It was such a nice photo but I don’t know why it all of a sudden came up on the internet, I’ve no idea so I thought it’s such a nice photo of him but then he’s family they were showbiz there uncle was Alfie Bass erm erm a cockney actor he’s on sometime in black and white films.

Okay.

Also from a Bethnal Green family erm immigrants as I say their family story is really fiddler on the roof coming over you know.

Yeah yeah.

Settling in Gibraltar Walking in erm Bethnal Green, in fact I think it’s in a book on the east end somewhere. Books on books in this house [opening of draw] if not books we’ve got photo’s [laughs]. And I like I showed this to Larry’s daughter I told you about my second husband and he already [microphone is knocked over.]

Oh whoops.

Had to knock it over.

Yeah it was inevitable wasn’t it.

Inevitable going back and forth and in the book it actually says it lists Alfie Bass’s name as an east end Londoner you know east end actor and erm its funny because it says he was they erm youngest of the children and I said to my step-daughter yes well and the oldest of the ten children was your grandmother, so Alfie Bass and obviously her grandmother were brother and sister so I might eventually give her the book.

[Laughs.]

It’s nice to a bit of family history in a book yeah.

Absolutely yeah. And what was your husband’s name?

Larry.

Larry.

Larry Golding.

Yeah

I am going to be very careful this time.

I am not worried about the thing, I am worried about if I can just move it over like that.

And this was it, this came out in the Museum of London this book not so long ago and erm I picked up and I thought ‘oh Lilly’ it’s a lady I know. Lilly, she’s pearly king of Smithfield’s. Smithfield Market. And I thought ‘oh well’ let’s have a look to see if they put the photo inside…and somewhere I’ll find it in a moment. It was the full photo any there’s all of us at another Harvest Festival. This is a nice book have you ever…

What’s this book? People in London no I haven’t.

There we are.

Oh that’s beautiful.

[Laughs.]

And that’s, you’ve got that framed on your wall haven’t you?

What’s that? No no it’s another one.

Oh no it’s a different one

This is St. Paul’s Covent Garden. So we’ve got Pat pearly king of Crystal Palace erm that’s Peggy. Peggy, I am going see her Saturday she’s erm Highgate. Harry pearly king of oh I’ve lost track of him Bow Bells he’s erm Crystal Palace , Carol, John Scott Mile End. Arthur is Upminster, Lilly well you know that person [laughs] and Roy.

[Laughs]

Roy and Lilly that’s er mother and son

Aww lovely

[Laughs] And they’re looking down at the Harvest Festival offerings

And all of the, you were saying that all of the designs are…

Yeah all traditional, the v’s are the ups and down of life er flowers are friendship, bow bells, horse shoes good luck. They are really just good luck signs.

Hmmm Hmmm

Erm you know so er

…These trousers are amazing

Hearts clubs and diamonds and spades yeah so the more the the wheel of life but also the wheel of the donkey and cart.

So what’s the significance of the donkey and cart?

Just its part of their life of when they got on in life they could afford a donkey and cart so erm yeah so that’s what you what you want to do with them you know. I am quite…I don’t go over the top.

So so I am just going to get you your jacket down

Certainly my dear

[Laughs]

[Laughs] my dear

God this is the most fun afternoon at work I’ve had in ever [laughs]

Am am we are going to stop in a minute because we are going to have another cup of tea

We are yes, we can stop whenever you like, and I am just enjoying myself [laughs]

Oh right then, what’s that save the date oh I’ve got other bits for us

Do you want to stop and have a cup of tea?

No carry on and we’ll have tea

So I just want to ask you I just want to… I want to I want to just I am so I’ve got erm

Are you cycling to Clapton when you finish?

Yes I am, I am cycling to Clapton

It’s alright then yeah

So I’ve just got erm Doreen’s jacket here

Which is quite heavy.

Which is quite heavy so I am not going to be able to hold it for too long but

Well put it on the door knob if you want

Tell me, just tell me no I‘ll hold it for a minute

Right so erm, we normally always get our suits erm from the charity shop [laughs] no it’s a jacket anyway. So so of the men buy a suit but I mean it’s quite good enough because that’s not my original jacket, my original jacket unfortunately either out grew it and also the neck line gets very rubbed were the feathers you know go on them. So that’s another jacket erm on the photograph behind me the Anita Manning is wearing my original jacket and my daughters hat [laughs] erm so what we’ve got there is…I wanted to keep it as plain as possible to see the design, when you see a suit completely covered in buttons, it’s called a smother smuvver suit. Smuvver, s-m-u-v-v-e-r smuvver suit.

[Laughs]

But a skeleton suit is when you can actually see the outline of the pattern. And I thought it was too nice to go too much over the top.

Hmmm

Because apart from the buttons and bow bells erm the shoulders what have you, people do you give you their badges. Now the latest badge there should of been the Air Ambulance last week. There you are ta-da and then I went down to the Seaman’s Mission who are going to be our supporters, you know we are going to support them from our Harvest Festival but so people give you their charity badges to wear or if you’ve done anything for a borough. So I think that is that Lambeth? No that’s St. Josephs. Should be Lambeth, if we support help the mayor of the time

There's Lambeth

There’s Lambeth so this one must be Newham

Newham

Newham erm that’s when I became freeman of erm Freemen of the City of London

And what does that mean to be a Freemen of the City of London?

Freemen of the City of London, we normally somebody from a livery company will nominate you, but normally if you do charity work errr it’s a little bit of status thing you know but it’s just nice to know that you’re are freeman erm the old one you’d always say people say you can drive your flock of sheep over London Bridge when you’re a Freemen of the City of London. Meaning that if you were a merchant you wouldn’t have to the pay the tax or the toll to cross London Bridge to sell your goods in the City of London. So if I have had a flock of sheep [laughs] I could do it without

[Laughs] you wouldn’t have to pay though

I wouldn’t have to pay and as I say it erm we opened The Shard. Went up to the top of The Shard er and had pictures taken of London looking over London. I have vertigo so the first picture of me is hanging onto the wall [laughs]

[Laughs]

And of course it was the seventieth anniversary of V-day erm what was this one here. The diamond jubilee of the queen.

And the sleeves, oh these are bow bells

Yeah yeah bow bells and the v’s ups and downs of life and the title on your back

So tell me about the title?

Well, normally of the back of the pearly queen’s jacket you’ve got pearly queen of, well you see I haven’t got pearly queen because I actually have two titles. One is Old Kent Road because my late husband was born south of the river, in fact he was born in the same hospital and same year I believe as Michael Caine as as St. Olaf’s which is no longer there

[Laughs]

South of the river, St. Olives everybody called it and erm bow bells is St Mary-le-Bow Cheapside, look cracked a button I’ll have to sew that before the weekend

Oh whoops

Yeah it’s when you’re sitting back or on the train. Erm and yes I do go on public transport in my gear, it’s too heavy to carry I’ll wear it.

Do people come up to you constantly and want to take your picture and?

They do but the only thing is if you get on the train erm a crowded underground train they’ll put the newspaper up and pretend they can’t, your invisible they’ll not give your sight unless sometimes over the tannoy a very good driver would say ‘a pearly queen has just come in the carriage will someone get up and give a seat’ [laughs] it doesn’t happen very often but when it does everybody jumps up [laughs]

[Laughs]

Erm don’t always get a seat, I don’t think some of them quite make out you know people say ‘are you in fancy dress?’ and I’ll say ‘it’s not a costume’, it is actually a working outfit’ and just seen another cracked button [laughs] oh dear

Oh dear

I must have leaned up against something, it was probably was when holding onto the wall up on thee erm on the erm what you call it the helipad, I was holding on like this [laughs]. So no the rector of erm St Mary-le-Bow erm conferred the tittle on me and I am very proud of that title, the Old Kent Road is obviously given by the chairman of your society pearly king and queens society but erm bow bells I thought it was very very nice

And why so so I understand why why the Old Kent Road, but why the bow bells?

Erm only because I’ve organised the Harvest Festival with my late husband for seventeen years well as I say he’s been gone for four years so erm and we done a lot of charity work in the City of London. The pearly king I work with alongside he is erm pearly king of bow bells erm which is erm a proper title from the church and he felt he’s I working with him as his queen that I should er have that title conferred on me so I am very proud of that really [laughs]

Sooo how often, yeah wow and quite rightly and how often do you re-do your jacket then?

Well you’re always well as I say I’ve just spotted two buttons gone yes yes

Yeah

So that’s a fairly new jacket actually, it’s a couple of years old. But erm…

So you’d start from scratch every few years?

Yes yeah you can’t can’t do one sleeve, it got to be a pair of cuffs and work upwards

Yeah

And you always need a jacket in reserve for going out erm my hat had to have new feathers on so I er put put the jacket down or up up or down whichever is easier

….I am going to put down up, up there yeah

Erm yes when my hat had to have new feathers because if they get wet you like you’ve got a dead chicken on your head [laughs]

I am just going to get your hat as well now, so you can just tell me

No that’s sadly in need of re-doing

It’s very beautiful though isn’t it?

The shape is still there, the buttons will cost fifty pound each you know but I am very fortunate that I am friends with the erm owner of the button queen shop in Marylebone Lane and his idea of giving for charity and I can show you the letter because a bundle of button came the other day erm if he always said every September this time f year before the Harvest Festival he always sends a big packet of buttons and that is his donation to charity my buttons, they are much appreciated [laughs]

Absolutely

Feather the ostrich feathers erm someone gets me but they look a bit tatty because it’s been raining lately and we pour er that’s going I‘ve gone a bit skewiff there

So we’ve got red white and blue ostrich

Yeah red white and blue I’ve had different colours for different time but we’ve had such a lot of royals things that erm its seemed appropriate red white and blue very very loyal erm are the erm pearlies, very erm patriotic we try not to be political

You’re not political?

No very very proud that er as I say we drifted off the subject of the front room

Yeah, let’s get back to the subject of the front room

[Laughs] but the photos on the wall erm very proud of the ones of the royal family. Er the first one I think was Prince Phillip my erm husband is saying to him ‘Sir I was out in Pacific the same time as you in the second World War erm can I call you shipmate?’ which Phillip replies ‘I suppose so’ [laughs] it wasn’t very happy told that day but never mind

[Laughs]

Princess Anne you can see in the photograph, she was master of the erm Guild of Freemen one here and Prince Charles’s one there on erm I am being presented to him at Guildhall Prince Charles by the Lord Mayor of London I think that was Savory yes Sir Michael Savory was Lord Mayor of London and with him is erm the Chief Commoner William Fraser and erm I think that was the erm hundredth anniversary of air aviation, my husband was in the erm Fleet Air Arm in the wars so it’s a ... [phone ringing in background] hmmm who’s that?

[Audio break]

Museum

Yes yes, we were talking about the museum

Yes so erm yes so the walls now grown with all the photographs, all the royal photographs and the Queen Mother that was when it was a surprise one, I was it was the Queen Mothers hundred and first birthday. The hundredth birthday we’d all the pearly kings and queens had gone up, we had gone to Clarence House, we’d gone to the entrance and we had presented her with an enormous great big card black card with all pearl buttons stuck on it, you know Queen Mum Hundred and the lady’s in waiting open the door they must have been about three hundred years old

[Laughs]

We presented the card, we never saw the Queen Mother. Er thanked us very much and we got a thank you afterwards for er, yes and I’ve got the thank you I keep everything

[Laughs] you do

Anyways so erm the year later was her last birthday erm we were sitting here me and my husband, we were watching it on television saw the Queen Mother Blah blah blah and I said ‘why on earth am I sitting here? Let me get’ I went straight on the train, straight up to erm I think went to Green Park, cut through the park and just as I got there they opened the gate and out came the Queen Mother in her buggy and she drove around stopped by the Chelsea Pensioners came around and stopped and what happened is I’ve always got something here so I’d I used to have, I haven’t got now erm they used to erm have a little erm like erm heart but erm Mother of pearl heart, so like little souvenir and I used to buy a few if I went to a hundredth birthday or or a wedding I used to take it, a little souvenir from the pearly queen so I’d stuff one in a bag and of course I am literally she’s literally snatching the bag out of my hand [laughs]

[Laughs]

And of course she got to me and she to erm er very famous man at the back, with what do you call him? Backstairs something he was a valet er Ekery the man behind her ‘stop the buggy pearly queen’ ‘hello’ and straight away ‘who are you supporting? What are you doing? Didn’t know me personally, but knew pearly queen charity ’oh your doing your good work yes yes, what have you got ‘I said ‘oh yes I thought’ [laughs] and my husband said he was quite surprised because like half an hour I was sitting here

Did he not go with you?

No no [laughs] then half an hour later he said ‘I am watching you on the television’ [laughs]

[Laughs]

Someone in the crowd was taking photos and they send we will send you the photo and I thought ‘yeah okay’ and I got the photograph and I stayed friends with them ever since they’re actually erm they live in North Devon and they sent me the photograph and I think that photograph went everywhere

Yeah yeah

Yeah so erm yeah so erm I think that’s my old jacket actually, yes it’s got the hearts on the sleeve yeah

Yeah and erm as I say that was and it was funny funny because it was getting embarrassing, she was holding my hand and I think you know all these cameras on you and you think ‘there’s other people move along move along’ erm this was one that was erm the golden jubilee because that’s the gold train the DLR

Ohhh yeah

And that Sophie and Edward there, Harrys wearing the smelter suit can you see all very heavy

….Yeah

He doesn’t wear it now, he can’t wear he’s nearly ninety cant it’s too heavy now and

It’s quite beautiful though

And erm she got there and we’re laughing and what we’re laughing is she says ‘is there a toilet?’

[Laughs]

I said ‘no’ so she had go back and they had to take her all the way back to the beginning of the line so she could go to the toilet

[Laughs]

Yeah there’s quite a few of them so Margret, Peggy that’s Peggy who was our sponsor originally. Hmmm Brian’s no longer with us, he’s no longer with us these two aren’t either so there’s this there’s George I was telling you about his Father was pearly king of West Ham er that his brother he was pearly king of Wapping and and Larry Barnes he’s only recently deceased he was virtually very similar times he was erm belonged to the magic circle as well, he was a professional entertainer magician singer er did a lot for Hackney Empire. Whenever they had all time musicals so they so he always used to invite us oh XXX in the background [laughs]

In your in your pearly?

Pealry yeah oh yes yes so he always used to invite us along so the wall just grew, couldn’t put every photograph on the wall so Ian McKellen and Roger Allam is it? The one who’s in Endeavour?

Okay

Yeah the detectives that was at the Hackney Empire. That was we went to invited to one of their big doo’s, Harrys got another suit on can you see?

Yeah

His society he’s got Tower Bridge on it on that one

Oh yeah

And erm they said ‘oh Sir Ian can we photograph?’ and he said ‘oh only if I can have the pearlys with me ‘ I thought ‘oh well I don’t mind’ [laughs] and that was erm erm Philip Scholfield and Holly Willoughby before she had the last baby and that was This Morning television erm a man was allergic to buttons oh dear so they had psychiatrist sit with him and talk with him and then they brought us out you know waiting to see him [laughs]

What he had like a phobia?

A phobia for button yeah he only t-shirts and this psychiatrist chatted with him and was alright after

[Laughs]

I take everything with a pinch of salt, very cynical [laughs] very cynical. So erm I am saying Ringo Starr that was at Chelsea Flower Shoe

Oh yeah where’s Ringo Starr?

That was on the way out we were just going because it was three o’clock at the Chelsea Flower Show and you have to go you know because the Queen is arriving erm and as we walking out he was there for the George Harrison memorial garden and as we went out he just called out you know ‘oh you must be the best dressed people can I have a photograph with you’ and er where and someone else came out can I take the I’ll take the photo and I’ll send it to you, so it only snap but we’re pleased to get that. And that’s the Juke of Kent I think I think that was at the Palladium. Hugh Grant

…Hugh Grant

And of course the most famous was Elton John’s erm that’s out the Hello Magazine erm and that was erm…a surprise before we’re never know what we’re going to do, that is the fun of doing it. It doesn’t matter how many hours this was someone I mean obviously our secretary is in this modern world which I am not and it was an e-mail it was erm a surprise sixtieth birthday party in Shoreditch in the evening I said ‘no thank you’ I am not going it winter its miserable and ergh I said ‘Harry go one of the others’ because we interchange we work whoever is available so he said ‘no no I’ll meet you at Liverpool Street and we’ll get a bus down to Shoreditch Town Hall’ and we got there and I have to say I thought ‘Whats going on?’ we saw people outside taking photos and we went up the stairs to Shoreditch Town Hall just had it refurbishment then and straight away wristband and would we sign that we won’t tell our story to the newspaper and you think ‘whats going on?’ and you go in and in the foyer there was a big table me taking everything at face value all these cards, name places you know cards laid out ready to go on the table and I am looking Paul McCartney Daniel Craig Kate Moss all the I cannot you mention them they were there everybody and I thought ‘was it a look-a-like party is it fancy dress?’ no concept of no party somebody’s sixty so they said we’re combining it to make it a hundredth party and that’s Sam Taylor Wood in the middle she was forty and obviously David Furnish and the girl comes out who’s been touch with her secretary to say they said erm ‘right what we’re doing we want you out on the pavement as the limousine arrives, see very nice and yes and erm and all these A-listers are slumming it, literally slumming it East End Shoreditch wanted to be out there ‘ hello darling welcome to the East End’ [laughs]

[Laughs]

Okay if that’s what you want that’s what you get and can you go down now because Elton’s just arrived, so when I picked [laughs]

So at this point you still had no idea?

[Laughing] yeah no no idea, so we’ve gone out on the XXXX couldn’t have my photos done you can see I’ve not even got I thought to myself ‘I’ve not even gone that near to him I can’t believe it’ you know he goes in and as they arrive and of course they’re loving it they want pictures with us, Hello Magazine it’s all with them you know erm and they’re sending out glasses of champagne I could of stood there forever, it was just an hour meet and greet get them in check for charity bottle of champagne and somebody comes out and they said ‘they’re all asking after you would you like to join the rest of the party? We [gasps] we were in [laughs] couldn’t believe it we honestly couldn’t, in fact at midnight we always laugh Harry says ninety be ninety oh what I said I’ve got to because my husband is home you know, just disappeared off the face of the earth you know I said ‘I’ll only be an hour dear seven till eight, I’ll be home at nine’ erm he was definitely tap dancing with Kate Moss singing I’ve got a lovely bunch of coconut [laughs] David Frost came over thanked me for a lovely party [laughs] unbelievable and they say you know civil we worked into the private party six hundred lines and they said you know ‘please carry on what you were doing outside’ so I said well I am with variety and I know they are networking they talking about their next job they want to be they said ‘no this is a private party, they’re relaxing please go up introduce show they want to know who you are why you doing you know chat with them and I was going the funniest I always say the funniest thing was erm erm er your spawns her name the mother erm ohhh

So terrible with these things

With the ginger hair

Yeah I know exactly

Kelly Kelly’s the daughter

Kelly’s the daughter

So she was there oh I can’t think I can see her face now…I can’t think

Neither can I

Anyways so there’s the three of them standing there so she she says’ oh you know’ so I says that’s delightful to me oh its lovely she says and I say I know and went you looked very nice Kelly and I’d had enough champagne by then and she went to me ‘by the way this is my husband’ now I mean I think you can tell Ozzy Osbourne [laughs] yes I know dear [laughs]

[Laughs]

But David Furnish he absolutely drove me crackers he was going ‘we should go over to Elon, tell him’ because we’re sitting like this ‘tell him its wonderful’ I am going ‘Elton your party’s wonderful’ ‘do you think so? ’ because they all read my bags oh its wonderful nobody’s going to believe this [laughs] honestly everyone know A-lister was there say Paul McCartney Hugh Grant all of them everybody was there for this party. Anyways I said to Harry ‘I am terrible I never except a lift’ and they said to Harry you he said I can say he was quite happy with the dolly birds you know

[Laughs]

And erm not that we recognised half of them, she’s just coming back now its Natalie Imbrug… [tongue twisted]

Imbruglia yeah

She’s coming back now and she was just she was popular at that time and erm er he said’ they’ll send me home with a cab’ you know back to West Wycombe and I said ‘ no I am going go ‘ I said ‘I’ll get a cab outside back to Liverpool Street’ I mean I can’t help it Liverpool Street Wanstead I walk out the door I am home it takes longer coming home by car than on the underground you know you sit in traffic I don’t want all that and I’ve got the gear I went to get it home and get it off. I’ve got out got to out they’ve walked me to the outside and of course you’ve got the steps going down again so who goes flying down the stairs oh dear and I thought this is going to be the picture that goes in the paper the one where someone falls out the nightclub with their legs in the air because thank goodness it wasn’t, the police came running I went down I feel on my hand like that and all the light on us and I felt like Princess Dianna all the light flashing from the cameras and the police said ‘are you alright?’ ‘no just get me home’ which they did.

They took you home?

Oh yes and I ended up at Whipps Cross because I broke a bone in my finger in the morning

Ohhh no

Erm in the later afternoon I was at my next job which was opening a pie and mash shop in Romford and I sat there in front of with this table this tatty old table with this plastic table cloth [laugh]s and I thought ‘how have the mighty fallen’ [laughs] literally from the Elton John party one day to pie and mash the next

Oh it’s lovely though that you’re able to interact with those two extremes of society and completely at home with both of them

Ohhh I have to this we I work with a another pearly king now Bob, very nice I must mention Bob because he’s done so well in the last of couple of years he was one of the keepers of the crown jewels at the Tower of London and he always supported Hackney hospice St. Josephs and he was coming up to retirement two years ago and he raised for hospice about thirty six thirty eight grand. Erm making fundraising evening at the tower in the private bar there, got a private bar at the tower its lovely [laughs] and he said ‘I’d like to carry on with my charity work’ so I said Harry and I will introduce you into the pearly society erm you know. You’ll have to write you credentials of what you’ve written what you’ve supported who you supported over the years how much you’ve collected, just a presentation and I said ‘I am sure they’ll take me and Harrys word for it anyway after twenty years yes’ erm but no we’ll introduce you into the pearly world and that would be nice you can become Harry and I’s pearly prides no different to…and has really worked hard erm Bob to get to that stage and I must say erm I always it’s not what you know it’s who you know. The fact that he worked at the Tower of London and his wife still works there, last year when we had the poppies who was invite into the mote, into the mote for the poppies and then on the Armistice Day we were there erm it was wonderful I mean what privilege as I say it’s not what you know it’s who you know and it’s all these different people you know and I always say to me ‘you always tell me every jobs different’ and I say ‘you never know who you’re going to meet’ and it doesn’t matter I say ‘it can be an old biddy of a hundred in a pokey room you know with her neighbours who made her a sponge cake for her birthday’ but you still go with you hundredth birthday I always take cards you know and a little present…and you’re meeting people and it’s so different in your retirement it’s a wonderful way to spend you he’s loving it, he’s bored stiff this week because we haven’t been anywhere [laughs]

So how often do you have engagements?

It could be every day at sometimes it can be every day erm but as I say what happened here with the room is the fact that my husband was so ill that er people wanted to do interviews or photograph I couldn’t always go out, I couldn’t leave him for that many hours. So, obviously that’s how the front room became strewn with red white and blue pillows. The throws were bought for me erm you know all the knick knacks people mainly what people have bought me actually

I mean there are just hundreds of pearly king and queens things

Things yeah [laughs]

Erm knick knacks, models

Models novelties

And pictures novelties and pictures

Yeah yeah

And Union Jacks everywhere

And Union Jacks that was my that used to be my thing, when I first become pearly they all used to have, have got pearly handbags obviously numerous ones but something to brighten it up I think it must have been something maybe to do with the golden jubilee I decided a red white and blue scarf. Ohhh I know what I did I bought a red white and blue shirt in Walthamstow Market, I couldn’t get a waistcoat and I did my usual, I just cut the sleeves out of it still got it now and wore it as a waist red white and blue and I bought a red white blue handbag, they weren’t so popular as they are now so that was my thing. Everyone the pearly queen with the red white blue handbag and red white and blue has become my thing [laughs] but its bright its nice you know so erm that’s why the front room is like a museum

And the front…

And of course chairmen of the local historical society all the history books as well

Yeah yeah yeah and you obviously just keep and archive and catalogue absolutely everything

Yes I I I have to say

It’s amazing

I have to say I have upstairs a hundred and forty album family photos [laugh]s I have books from 1996 of all the pearly, every event we’ve ever been too every page has either the information a leaflet and a photograph to prove any story I can tell you I can match it to a photograph [laughs] I’ve always taken photos, I’ve always I’ve always had a camera on me you whenever know who you might meet or something might happen erm it just and I visits now everybody’s got cameras on their phone. I can remember my children my grandchildren my children saying ‘oh no not a photo mum’ you know at family gatherings, now now what with the selfies [laughs][ everybody’s taking photos. But having said that I print my up, every photo as I literally every event gets printed up straight away straight in an album, there’s no mucking about [laughs]

Wow wow

And it’s nice there will be a time when I can’t go out, I don’t know when that’s going to be erm

Doesn’t seem to be any time soon

No no no I have been indisposed I have been out of action for some time on different occasions

Okay

But as I say even when my husband was very ill they never limited me because I used to have six o’clock every morning was the district nurse came around and I was always washed and dressed when they came, I am not one with strangers to be in my pajamas erm you wouldn’t want to see it er [laughs] and then at seven or eight o’clock the carer would come into shower my husband take up his breakfast, by about eight nine o’clock he was happy for the day. He was fresh nice pajamas had his breakfast got his newspaper and it was usually ‘haven’t you gone out yet?’ he wanted peace and quiet had his television upstairs. So I could do a morning job

Hmmm

Erm if I knew I would be out over the lunchtime I would have the carer come back, I would prepare the lunch sandwiches have it all ready just for the carer to pop in take the tray up and have a little, quite happy with a male carer talk about football whatever erm sing a cockney song. I must say the district nurse and the nurse who had him to the very end, they said l they missed was him singing every morning to him, didn’t matter how ill he was he would sing a cockney song to him

Will you sing a cockney song to me? [laughs]

You’ll be sorry and erm I still carried on with my cockney my pearly work er wouldn’t say I was limited but I made sure I time it and I was very crafty then because he used to say ‘what time will you be back then?’ and I used to say ‘er four o’clock’ knowing I would be back at three

Hmmm

Always stuck on an extra when I came back ‘oh your back early then’ yes yeah got here quick as I could’ kept him happy. You know sometimes you’ve got to tell a little lie, keeps kept him happy no he suffered towards the end so erm you know it’s been four but erm as I say you know I am one of those, I don’t I I do get very annoyed with people when somebody passes away they never mention them again, like they never existed and I think that is dreadful, you know alright I've got photos all around couldn’t forge if I tried, not particularly him but anybody you know you you can talk about the person who’s gone it’s not like a subject you must because there dead you mustn’t talk about them , it’s like they never existed and I think that’s horrible.

No it’s nice to keep them live in a way isn’t it

Yeah definitely oh definitely, right let’s make that tea [laughs]

Forget what’s it called

It has

Oh dear, talk about an afternoon

[Laughs]

Oh well

[Laughs]

I didn’t see tipping point or they did the yellow badge first erm so he could earn a living then he did his green badge and then when we had some money together this …just before he died in 74 this is we had the whole house whole place done out with this, this is Axminster XXX this is forty odd forty odd years old and it’s just wearing out mind you considering me and second husband had five kids between us I am surprised it was wearing out

Wow [laughs}

But erm this was the whole flat from top to bottom, you had fitted carpet when you we got a few bob. So erm that’s the last now as they say I don’t even look in this room [laughs]

I wouldn’t want to change this room it would be…

No no it’s it’s for the kids, it’s your problem you know [laughs]

[Laughs] oh yeah amazing

Have another biscuit

Would you like one?

No not for me I am quite happy

Okay I’ll have another one

Yeah, so where’s your bike?

Erm

You padlocked it to a railing?

Erm slightly disorientated now, but yeah I padlocked it to a railing

Oh right when you came you say XXXX downstairs

Hmm

Yeah so no its got a I can’t tell you how many times the walls been photographed by different company [laughs]

I am sure I am sure

I mean there’s lots more photos with other celebs buts it’s just the ones that er must get a picture with Bob actually now that I am working alongside him erm very nice man, he’s got his title he done two years at Forest Gate he lives in Stratford so

So he’s Forest Gate?

Pearly king of Forest Gate yeah very very nice man very pleasant…his wife unfortunately because they’ve shifted the goalposts now erm she’s sixty in October yes erm cause we all in my time retired at sixty she’s got to do sixty seven so although she’s officially his queen and she has started making herself an outfit which is nice erm course you know it’s only well I can’t say she can work at the weekend because at the Tower weekends are their busy time and as you can imagine

Yeah yeah

So she doesn’t, I think she will be with us next no not this Saturday the following Saturday is Maidstone its Hop Festival time. So she will put on her outfit then.

So you were saying anybody can have an outfit but only officially a pearly king or queen when you have a title bestowed on you?

When you have a title, when I am saying that we have had people in the the past get in touch with us say ‘we’re doing a show me and my girl we want to dress as a pearly queen’ because that’s you know ‘is that alright with you’ And we say we can’t say no you can’t say ‘no you mustn’t put on that’ I mean how many times where was I the other day when somebody said ‘oh when my girl was at school we had a fancy dress and dressed as er er pearly queen’ you can’t say to people ‘no you’re not allowed too’ its [stutters] you just can’t you know erm some of them the people you know territorial if you pearly queen of an area or what have you, it it’s your little domain isn’t it in fact because next I don’t know I couldn’t do erm a interview the other week [stutters] for next week I had to do it already is a radio station somewhere in Romford I think and they’re doing for the Queen..erm succession not succession length of time she’s been on the throne erm he’s interviewing pearly queen a drag queen erm queen of the jungle [laughs] as many queens as he can get

Queen of the jungle?

So its erm I am a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here [laughs] [mumbles] oh she was o today on tele Stacey Solomon

And a drag queen brilliant [laughs]

Queen of the jungle there aren’t many queens are there different queens [laughs]

Yeah well it’s a good idea though, I like the idea

Yeah but people come up with different ideas yeah, well I am at lunch next erm erm er Wednesday and its erm I belong to the Royal Society of St George and they’re doing just like a lunch at the Union Jack club which is near Waterloo. So it will be nice to go to it, that’s why funny enough I’ve got they erm rosette out that rosette is not normally there

Oh right

He phoned me and he said Harry said to me ’have you still got your rosette?’ so I said ‘yeah I've still got pictures of the Queen at the diamond jubilee’ and he said ‘are you going to wear it on your jacket?’ I said ‘if you want me to’ so I’ll stick that on next week so I brought it down stuck it there to remind myself [laughs]

[Laughs]

Oh I’ve got loads, there bags and bags of all different things, those were made for me by a lady in St. Josephs Hospice

There knitted

You know the knitted dollies

Yeah

And I said to her when I once chipped in and I said ‘have you ever got pearly’ she said ‘I only made them once and that will be for you’

Did did she know you?

Yeah

Yeah

Only through she’s a volunteer

Okay

Yeah so

They are lovely little little…

Of course my husband was the pearly king with a beard so the beard and those that one over there the beard yeah

And the baby is amazing

Yeah that was I went to that was a school in Chingford erm what they did very clever, people come up with such lovely ideas and what they did erm they sent a note home to all the children that they [laughs] unbelievable I’ll take another pearly queen with me erm every child in the school would have an individual photograph with a pearly queen and they would give a pound… there was over a hundred children [laughs] so can you imagine all these kids…me and Christine she sat on another chair and every child come up and we had to smile and she went ‘I want to die with these kids’ [laughs]

[Laughs]

Listen it was a very nice way of raising money that is an original erm etching there that one that sketch

That’s beautiful

That is absolutely… this is erm now who is it by? Percy Smith. I’ve got his history upstairs and what it was erm someone wrote to me I put in a frame it’s in a massive big erm surround and erm she wrote a uncle of hers had erm been an artist this Percy Smith and she got she found his portfolio erm from the twenties and he had this picture of XXXX can’t see erm I don’t think so

It says ‘finally proof at tops, fault at top’

Final proof is the final yeah yeah

Fault at top, can you see a fault at the top?

Goodness no

No

Well as I say…

The castle the does it say? The castle the

The cost of queen, costa queen

Ah the costa queen yeah yeah yeah

And erm she found this portfolio and and this was one of the pictures in there and she wanted to know who she was and she didn’t know and it so happens I did know who it was through the historical connection I did know who she was so I could give her a name and she thanked me sending by sending me the picture which was very nice [laughs]

Aww

I have had that made by someone the school…

Your husband had that made?

For me yeah

That is I mean that is gorgeous

The funny thing it looks like my daughter my eldest daughter and that’s very that

What is it? Is it ceramic?

Yeah oh so heavy

Yeah

No he had that made, the children at the school gave me that when we had his photograph taken

I mean that’s just brilliant

I know and that I think I picked that up at erm some antique craft fair or something

Yeah

And erm but but my granddaughter was here Friday and brought the children’s starting school today and erm I said what’s you know I know I am not in this world but have a look on eBay and she saw there was a plate with all pearly kings and queens dancing around, what was the other thing? There was something else pearly oh I’ve always been after the I was promised them once but they never reached me erm was the toby jugs the pearly king and queen

Hmmm

So she said they’re on there you know bid for them and I’ll keep an eye on them, what other things have we got this lets take off us [laughs]

[Laughs] very very lovely

Erm dear…oh no they’ve someone s put this back to front, there pearly stuff

[Gasps] wow should we turn it around, do you want to turn it around. Shall I out my tea down and turn it around

That’s alright, tell me if I am going right way

Yeah you’re doing fine

I am doing I am doing fine

You’re doing fine you’re doing fine [laughs]

Doing fine

There you go

What time you got to get home? [laughs]

Sometime

Sometime [laughs]

I should probably head off soonish but…

No no you can this this must be mouldy I can’t tell you how many years old this is, this it is actually chocolate but I wouldn’t open it. That’s it kings and queens someone had it made up when it was first thing you could its

Oh wow

I mean its easily done now on the computer but years ago it wasn’t so there erm George, I told you his dad suit, now I am wearing one of Peggie’s hats my hat wasn’t even made so that tells I was wearing one they she had she wore see there they’ve got different XXX there’s Peggy, Joan she does and Mame that’s Georges sister. And this must be its chocolate it must be all mouldy

Can we see what, does it have a date on it? I am just for the tape this is a…what would you call it a?

A selection box of chocolates

A selection box of chocolates and each one has got a photo of a curly…a pearly king or queen on it and it says the kings and queens of England by milk chocolate and erm Doreen and Larry are there and what’s the…does it say the date

It must by the sell by date 02

A sell by date yeah the tenth of July 02 best before so it’s probably made quite a long time before that

Yeah so at least thirteen years

Beautiful beautiful

And other things that I’ve picked up or people a lot of things people have given me these shells funnily enough that was a taxi driver he wanted to me somehow get it on the front of my hat but you can’t always do these things and if you drew a hole your frightened it would be split

Yeah yeah

And that’s erm

And erm you were you did tell em this earlier, but you there all handmade and you do it all yourself?

Yes yes they’re all handmade

It must take it must be hours and hours of sewing

Yes they do, they take months. If you talk with Bob, he’s the latest recruit his suit took him a good three months

And he does it himself?

He did well always with a little help from somebody you know with wives and husbands most of the men have done very well I mean Harry’s got Harry got harry had It like Henry Croft, Henry Croft had a suit for every day of the week we’re told Henry Harry pearly king of Bow-bell must have had about five suits. A man on his own he was quite happy to sit at home, men are quite peacocks I always think they want to dress up don’t they

[Laughs]

And erm but of course they’re too heavy for him now because he’s got problem with his his back so he has to, oh I just saw Alfie Bass I just saw what I was looking for earlier. Alfie Bass 1916-XXX was the youngest of ten children born Gibraltar Walk Bethnal Green to a cabinet maker. Most of Jewish immigrants were either tailors of cabinet makers right. erm so he was the youngest and as I say his oldest was erm Lisa who’s there, that’s Larry’s youngest daughter, her Grandmother so her Grandmother and Alfie Bass were brother and sister and he was oh just so young he was in Bootsie and Snudge on the television erm quite well known in his time

Well know yeah, well I am terrible with these things because I don’t really watch tele but…

Yeah but no as I say on London Life channel eight erm they’ve been doing Ealing Studio films black and white films just after the war and he been featured in quite a few. He was never a star star

Hmmm

Oh there’s the other one with Gemma sorry

It’s lovely

What happened is the kids, this arrived a few weeks back, it’s a bit small

It’s enormous

No they wanted bigger I know [laughs] they would have their update so erm yeah [police siren in background] so I say hope she’s got three children yeah and Larry had two girls. There’s my three children that’s a while back and erm we’ve just got all children [laughs]

So I probably should go soon

Well enjoy your tea

I’ve just seen…yeah I am enjoying my tea I am enjoying my tea

Have a biscuit, no as I say I am very fortunate Wanstead High Street they have a very nice erm nice Turkish run I would call it an English café so you can either have a free up which is not good for you or you can have er a proper dinner and quite honestly I end up I do stock my fridge up I end up being on my own still frozen everything, if you open something you’ve got to eat it all week haven’t you as one person on your own

Yeah

So I find I east out quite a lot because as I say I am out this weekend I am at hotel, so I’ll be eating out

Of course

It’s no cheap to be a pearly queen I have to say [laughs]

Do you have to pay for everything yourself then?

We pay for everything, very I have to say last week I was very cheeky and I I suppose because it wasn’t for myself I actually we got a very good donation for doing this XXX I say very good to us we were satisfied with it erm but I actually went up to the girl there and also a nice young girl like yourself and I say erm ‘Lizzy I said Lizzy I said erm you know we’ve come in two cars best we could do’ I said ‘any chance for a bit of petrol money for the lads’ lads and mentors [laughs] ‘ oh oh we’ll see what we can do you’ you know they’ve got petty cash so I got them twenty quid each for their petrol but if you don’t ask you don’t get

Quite

And BBC give nothing

Absolutely, really?

Oh dreadful the BBC are absolutely diabolical erm you literally have to beg you know they look at you like your crazy and you say ‘you don’t work’ I would say ‘you don’t work for nothing’ [laughs]

Yeah

But you’re a pearly queen you give you services free to charity [laughs]

Yeah quite

Oh its craft honestly…no as I say you know erm no listen the minute you get in the car and drive away no matter who’s driving you know tis costs you but in your retirement it’s a very nice thing to do you get you put something back into the community you hear so much of people taking out its nice to know we can say ‘no’ we are senior citizens we’ve got our pension but we’re still willing to help and do thing s erm for other people and why not and why not you know its

Quite and there are perks aren’t they? I mean not everybody gets to go to Elton John’s sixtieth birthday party [laughs]

Of course we always say we always it doesn’t happen very often free pie and mash [laughs]

When it does, quite yeah just as important I might add

No no no we always say you know what as the I mean even as I say going on the Helipad that was quite an experience

Yeah

I mean I have to say I might of got a little bit closer as I say I was holding onto my hat the wind was [laughs] what am I doing the weather that’s been . And at the start I opened the curtain again and funnily enough there’s not a lot of traffic out usually at this time of night it’s starting to build up [traffic noise] but come on just to get a noise…

So maybe we should finish on one last thought on the M11 Link road or maybe just the sounds of the M11 Link road

The sound erm no traffic the roads empty [shouting] last week the slip road to the M11 was being repaired and this from the Green Lane roundabout was solid so as I say I had that wedding Saturday so I phoned XXX don’t even come for me it was just you know go down the station and I XXX [traffic noise] its quicker than train and it was but this was as I say from the window now to about all the way XXXX [traffic noise too loud]

Yeah yeah

All happened here my dear

Yes

That was the beginning that was the beginning, but I will do if you come again I’ll fish out the photographs and we’ll walk the tunnel

Yeah that would be fantastic

That was so funny half a dozen I guess to walk the tunnel and we walked from one end to the other and walked the whole length of the tunnel to show us what it was going to be like so I went down the tunnel…I think he was just really to keep us all fairly happy because look now look at the dirt I wouldn’t be going out there to clear it up [closes window]

Did you ever consider moving?

No [laughs]

No nope

Oh that was the option you know why don’t you move, why should I move? I’ve lived here all my life its suits me

Hmmm, it’s my home

It’s my home yeah I’ve been here forty eight years now I mean the kids have been married [closing blinds] from here, we’ve buried a few from here as well quite a few funerals from here as well. No I wouldn’t want to no, definitely not I always say to the kids you know they’ll take me out only one way from here [laughs] No I am not a mover really you know I am quite happy where would I go to? Wouldn’t even consider going to my children I mean why they go to work Monday to… I look out there see that station keeps me here [laughs] when I come home, come out of Wanstead Station I am home.

Excellent, well that seems like quite a good place to stop, unless you want to sing me a cockney song?

No that’s fine no I am when you you erm come again your more than welcome and I shall rake you out loads of photos [laughs]

Fantastic

I shall do when they erm fountain went back, I’ll find the conversation letter I can’t honestly I can’t remember how much it was it couldn’t have been much very insignificant. I can’t remember if it was a few hundred or a couple of thousand it wasn’t anything brilliant erm yeah as I say I say I’ll find the letter I’ll find the letter, if that’s ninety three to ninety five I’ve got six seven eight nine, ninety seven It was supposed to finish

Yeah

Ran over two years over ran

Two years

Yeah so erm as I say I am quite happy you’ve brought back memories actually I think we went through hell [laughs]

[Laughs] you did you did

And I’ll also find out why on earth we went to city hall, we went with councillor Burgess we went we were in there you know and I am sure Boris was sitting there and we all went round and stood up we’ll all told to sit down [mumbles] and protested in a small way I think really I just didn’t feel connection with the protestors…they weren’t my type of people when I am you know they were weird and wonderful way out people erm you know and they didn’t live here and what were they protesting for. It didn’t really affect them. I know they were fighting for the environment save the trees and all the rest of it but we just I just thought they were trouble makers really and not really not helping the situation

Hmm

But you know get hold of Jean she was oh she love talking with you, you think I’ve talked your ears off wait until you get hold of Jean and the other Doreen

I would love to yeah I would love to speak to them

Yeah

Erm shall I turn this off then?

You may indeed

Unless there’s any last?

No that’s I have no last wishes

No last no final words [laughs]

[Laughs] no final words

Thank you very much

No no as I say the books re here any time you want to.

Name of interviewee: Doreen Golding

Project: Voices of Leytonstone

Date of interview:

Language: English

Venue: Interviewee’s home –

Name of interviewer: Polly Rodgers

Length of interview: 02:37:15.0

Transcribed by: Miriam Hopkinson/Josh Adams/Polly Rodgers

Archive Ref: 2015_esch_VoLe_05

Archive Reference: 2015_esch_VoLe_06

Archive Reference: 2015_esch_VoLe_06

Okay, so it’s now recording, so can I just start with you, and can you just tell me your name, please?

RK: Ros Kane

And will you spell it for me?

RK: Yes, R.O.S for Sugar, K.A.N.E.

Brilliant, and can you tell me your date of birth?

RK: No, I don’t do dates of birth.

Fine.

RK: I don’t do age.

RL: Fair enough

Absolutely fair enough. Same question to you, can you tell me your name?

RL: Richard Leighton, that’s – you know how to spell Richard, and its Leighton, it’s L.E.I.G.H.T.O.N

Brilliant.

RL: Birthday , 1^st of the 1^st 1949. I know I don’t look that young, but I am that young.

Thank you very much

LW: Laurence Wortley, known as Laurence of Leyton. Was named that by the local editor of a local paper, and I’m a war baby

You’re a war baby

LW: Yeah, August ‘39

Fantastic. Thank you ever so much. So just before we turned the tape recorder on, you were just starting to tell me where it all began.

LW: Well unless the others have something different to say, there was a Lister Goldsmith scheme, which was tunnel it, and put a – can’t remember… linier park, on top, and as the government at the time, I think at that time it was under Mrs Thatcher, erm, has absolute power, er it was obvious that they were going to try to build it, and they, people, the erm, focus of the plan at that time was in Wanstead and I believe Mr Goldsmith still lives there, I don’t know about Lister, anyhow, it went on for a number of years, and it was well supported by all the people, and well financed and everything else, and everything was done as per the book, but after several years, it was realised that there was no attempt to come together with the people of the area and the government, so then there was the campaign No M11 Link Road, er the local government at first, this is in our borough, Waltham Forest, which it was, didn’t oppose it, their idea was that the strength of the – I was told by the deputy leader at the time – the strength of the national government was so strong that they thought the best thing to do, though they didn’t want it, they thought the best thing to do was to get as many advantages out of it as possible, or as little damage and to be honest, there are several places that if, if we had not fought the road, we might’ve got a couple of odd little places a little bit better, but we might not have, so then the erm, the No M11 Link Road started, and Richard’ll tell you about that, when it started, erm, I joined it obviously, when I saw that the Government was not going to take any notice of the cut and cover scheme, which of course would have been greatly advantage to the area, because there would have been a lovely green sward(?) all the way down from Wanstead, all the way down to the other side of Leighton, and it would have been a lovely thing, but…

Would it still have involved knocking houses down?

LW: It would have. It still involved knocking houses down, because to cut and cover, you’ve got to cut down to build the road underground, well of course there were houses over it, though there again, you may have been able to build houses on top of it. I’m not sure about that, to be honest.

But the plan was to have the whole of the top as parkland, essentially?

LW: As parkland, that was the plan of the cut and cover of Lister Gold- Lister and Goldsmith

And they were the architects?

LW: They were the architects, yes and they – as least one of them is an architect, I’m not sure about the other one, probably the other one is –

And do you know when those plans were proposed? When are we talking?

LW: I can’t remember, you’d be able to look it up anyway, on the archives. Now what happened? Oh year, er… while…erm, the position with the local government was, as I told you, that they felt that they’d have to go along with it, but get as many concessions out of the government as possible, like better crossing points, but erm, in the end, under the pressure of the No M11 Link Road, and a new leader of the council which was Labour, Hugh Morgan Thomas, a very fine man, a very good man, new person to the area, he got the borough to vote against the M11 Link Road, so then of course, there was the local people and the local government against it, and I think maybe Richard should take over now, and I can go on for more, but…

RL: Well yeah, if we’re looking at the historical thing, the actual concept of the road goes back to Elisabeth 1^st, alright, now she needed a road to go from London down to Tilbury, because she had a fort at Tilbury, right, so that’s when it first started, the first general idea, round about Elisabeth 1^st. And then it all fell through. When the A12 was built in the 30s, there was always an idea that that link would go up, you know, along the A12, even in 1938 there was an idea that that was going to join up to London, in 1938. In 1950, my dad and other members of Colville Road, they heard the road was gonna come through, now the road was planned in the 1944 Abercrombie Plan

LW: That’s right

RL: Now what Abercrombie said was we’ve got a golden opportunity, the German’s have given us a golden opportunity to rebuild London, and he was looking for three ring roads in London: A central ring road, a middle ring road, which turned out to be sort of like the A406, and that, and an outer ring road which eventually became the M25, there was gonna be an inner ring road that the so called M11 Link Road, as it became was gonna be vital to that. Now the 50s started, my dad and other people said no, we don’t want it, knocking down the community, what the Luftwaffe had failed to do, you want to do, to the government, and it failed. They didn’t do it, the government didn’t push it, cos of the extraordinary expense, it was always going to be very expensive, so going through to the early ‘60s, and Stratford Depot was on its last legs, at one time Stratford British Rail Depot was the biggest depot for British Rail, steam engines, and building steam engines and stuff like that, I think not only in Britain, but the entire world. Well that was dying on its feet, so the idea was, was to revitalise that area, revitalise it. But to do that they needed a road, so they come up with the Abercrombie Plan, now as Laurie says, the Lister Goldsmith plan come up, to try and make it less of a gash in society –

LW: Here here

RL: - put this linier path on it, now that was stopped because the cost was just too much. Lister was the architect and he still lives in Wanstead. Then as the depot at Stratford declined, so the idea come, we need an east end west end, which could only be Stratford. Canary Wharf hadn’t been built, or anything like that, so Stratford was going to be the golden, the holy grail, so the plan come up. So the plan come up to build the M11 Link Road, so that’s where the Government started, we’ll build the M11 Link Road, now as it went on, the alliance of anti-roads campaigners and activists and residents, it suddenly become obvious it was not going to work. It was not going to put any value add in, now the government’s own CoBA – their Cost Benefit Analysis – said ‘rubbish. Won’t work. Way, way over money. Do not build this road’. But the government at the time, ‘no, we’re going to build this road’, and the government was determined to build the road come hell or high water, they were going to build that road. End of story. Never made any sense, and time and time again it made no sense, the cost was prohibitive, at one time the record for the costliest bit of road in Britain, was Canary Wharf, the tunnelling at Canary Wharf, the M11 surpassed that. It was never going to make money and all that it actually done and showed was the whole concept of the Department of Transport was roads. Roads, roads, roads, roads, and I hate to say it, the insidious nature of the Department of Transport, cos as soon as they got to be where they were, they left the Department of Transport they were employed by Marples Ridgeway(?), or by the developers, so that they were never – and no one ever looked into it. Laurie can tell you more about this, but Laurie was looking at the quality of Asphalt on the Link Road

LW: That’s right

RL: Which was dire, to say the least.

LW: Basic.

RL: They could have put better – but they didn’t do that because they wanted – so they, who was going to come along and do that? So, I’ll let Laurie come in again, but what it did show, yes alright, we lost, but we probably thought we was always going to lose, but it showed the nature of the government the fact that it was so insidious and I would say probably worse than that, with the road planners, and the road builders, the whole concept of road planning was flawed, you could never predict and provide, would never work. And that’s what they done. They said no, we’ll predict and provide, and a hundred years’ time that road still won’t be full up, and it also proved that thing – not only the predict and provide, it proved that the noise and the health, oh no, we’ll only give you double glazing if you’re looking over the road, but their own actual technical plans proved that the noise element went over, noise lifts, because it’s…hot, and then it goes over there, and it lands a couple of miles away, and people say ‘is there a motorway here?’, yes , there is. And so the whole thing was rotten and rotten to the core, and um… Laurie, do you want tom come in on that?

LW: Okay well there’s a couple of things I thought of, I went to one of the enquiries, where they were still debating the route, though they had it already in, in plans the M11 going through our area, it could have come down the River Lea, and I always remember somebody standing up, cos I was very young and innocent in those days on this sort of subject, and government, erm, somebody standing up and saying, ‘in the end you’ll have both roads, and this is also another danger, that there will be a similar road to the M11 Link Road, coming down the River Lea, and of course they’ve started because you can do it in bits if you’re clever, and they’ve done the Leyton Relief Road which goes from Lea Bridge Road to Ruckolt Road, there’s a road now built there which there never used to be, now erm, as regards quality, yes, Richard was quite right. At that time there was a thing called Porous Asphalt, there’s probably something better now, Porous Asphalt at that time was used on um, runways for aeroplanes it reduces the skidding, or, what’s it called? Aqua-plaining isn’t it? It reduces Aqua-plaining and it makes less noise than ordinary road materials, but at that time of course, it was dearer, you were building through a highly dense population, they wouldn’t do it. As regards the actual cost, as you know they didn’t want to do it. They didn’t want to do the covered thing because it would cost more, but we did try to get various parts covered anyhow, now the part near Connaught School, I did everything possible – that sounds big headed – We did everything possible to try to get it covered near Connaught School, because Connaught School as you know, is a girls’ school and it’s at at…let’s put it… the teenage area, and it coul- the adverse effect of pollution blowing on them, you don’t know what effect that’s going to have in the next generation of children. I kept bringing it up, but nobody wanted to know, and I do understand that the pollution level at that area is extreme, now whether it’s extreme on the Connaught School, I don’t know, but it certainly won’t be good and obviously there’s the noise as well. Erm, the thing which is often forgotten, that, well particularly in that instance, that was in Leytonstone, now Connaught School is in Leytonstone, and of course that’s part of Waltham Forest, and at that time it was a Labour Borough, and the area was Labour, which is another point to mention, the area in Leyton and Leytonstone where the road was built was all Labour councillors and guess what? The area in Wanstead, which is Conservative, they had a certain amount of cut and cover, but we didn’t, so that was very unfair. One of the things I would have liked to have said, we all knew that it would generate traffic, and I believe, to help put more traffic demand on that area, at this time, they closed the central line from Epping to Onga, now obviously they’ve got busses and alternatives, but people would use their cars, now when they got in their car at Onga, they drive to Epping, well once you’re in your car and on the road, you amy as well keep driving till you get to a cheap area, as regards fairs, to leave your car there, so of course there was more demand on vehicles coming in and more, so um, that was another pressure point which was unfair.

Where’s Onga?

LW: Onga’s out in Essex, it’s where the central line used to end, you’ll see it if you look at some old maps, okay, and the line is still there, so you look at any maps and you can see the line, the historical society and such…

But you’re suggesting that the line was deliberately closed between Epping and Onga?

LW: Well it do- you could-

Or that that’s a possibility at least?

LW: I’d say more than a possibility, I mean we all know, even then that Onga will get bigger, so if they were saying there wasn’t that many customers, you knew there was going to be more customers and the whole idea of transport etc. was to build, not just to cover the er, population at the moment, but the future population, so we knew that. Erm, I’ll hand back to Richard, maybe.

RL: Okay then. Well when we’re talking about costs and stuff like that, what the, as Laurie said, it was a Labour borough, and the view was we didn’t matter. That was the view. You talk to people in the Department of Transport and you talk to senior people they say ‘sorry old son, you don’t matter, nothing we can do’.

LW: That’s right

RL: Government.

And you think that was because, because you were a Labour area?

RL: No, no, because we were poor.

Because you were poor.

RL: It was a poor area. Now it’s not poor.

So you’re saying Wanstead got cut and cover because it was a more middle class –

RL: Yeah… now what Laurie’s talking about with Onga, now one time there was a plan, to increase the central line to Chelmsford, Chelmsford’s not a great distance from Onga, turn the central line into an over ground, like they do in Stratford, and run it through to Chelmsford, and then they would build up Chelmsford and you would have a double link rail link. You’ve got the British Rail link, Chelmsford into Liverpool Street, you’d have the central line link from Chelmsford, no says the government, too costly. It would have been a tenth or whatever it is, of the M11 Link Road. Now they weren’t gonna do that. And what the M11 Link campaign did do, from a residents point of view, and I’m going to use my mum as a thing, she couldn’t understand how a government could treat it’s people worth than the Germans. She thought that we were treated worse than… if Hitler had come, even Hitler wouldn’t have built the M11, we were treated worse than that, and she could never understand that, and I kept trying to say to her, it’s all to do with opening up Stratford land, that’s the important thing, it’s going to make a lot of money for people, now every time we went to the public enquiries, what it opened up to a lot of people is the emperor had no clothes on, for a lot of people they thought, public enquiry, yeah, we are the public, we’ll go there. No you’re not. End of story. You’re not the public. You’re nothing. Because public don’t exist, and a public enquiry, all it means is the public can watch it. It’s down to two people, that’s the experts, who have a right to speak, and the laity, the laity meaning the common folk, if it doesn’t say the laity can speak, you can’t speak. You voice… you can go up there like we did, all dutifully go up there and present a very good…and we had academic people helping us…

LW: That’s right

RL: People, LSE, people from, international people,

LW: Scientists

RL: Scientists, everything. Everything proved that we was right. Don’t matter. Nothing to do with that. So what? You know? And a classic example, and I’m using this as a personal thing, even I got thrown out of my house, now the day before, the High Sherriff had come to see me, the High Sherriff of London, very nice man, very nice. ‘Sorry old son,’ he says, ‘you’ve got to get out’, now the councillor come to see me – I was living with mum at the moment, at the time, said ‘you’ve gotta get out’. I said ‘okay, I know I’ve got to get out’, now the Council had talked to the High Sherriff and agreed that me and mum would move out. They’d got a house for us, and the council said, ‘pop round, see the house, if you don’t like it, we’ll find you another one’. But MacGregor, who was the Minister for Transport, Secretary of State, ‘oh no’, says MacGregor, ‘I’m going to throw them two out, just to show them what’s what’, and threw me and mum out.

Without re-housing you?

RL: Without re-housing me. What happened was, I’m sorry to say, why re-house somebody? There is no provision is law to rehouse you. Right. Plus the fact, what people don’t understand, and people find this a great thing, you can google this and check, you don’t have any rights to you property, now you might think, I payed me mortgage, got me thing, got deeds on the land registry. No. Because in 1066 William the Conqueror conquered this land. All the land became the King’s possession. In 1642, there was a civil war. All the land becomes Parliaments’ possession. You’re meanly sitting on it. The reason being we’re subjects. We’re serfs. We’re not citizens, we’re subjects of the Crown.

LW: That’s right.

RL: So there’s me saying, well, you know, can you do this? Yes, we can. Now, when the bailiffs come and threw me and mum out, under what right? Well it was under the right of the High Sherriff. Now when they picked the High Sherriff, what they do is they take a scroll of vellum to the Queen, she shuts her eyes like that, and someone guides her hand, although it’s meant to be that [LW laughs]. I’m telling you the truth on this one…

Sorry, when you say ‘it’s meant to be that’…?

RL: It’s meant to be god’s judgement

It’s meant to be god’s judgement

RL: Because the queen is god’s representative. She goes like that and she pricks a name with a gold – a silver bodkin, right.

Is this true now?

RL: This is true, right. Silver bodkin, that bodkin says ‘Laurence Wortley is now the High Sherriff of London, he has the power to turf the surfs out’, and the Sherriff says to me, he says, ‘I could kill you, you couldn’t stop me, because I’ve got that power’. Now you might think… and this was in the late 1990s, ‘hang on a minute, they can’t do that’, but they can. And when you go to court, I mean I took the government to court, because I wanted my compensation, I wanted to rub their nose in it. It didn’t work by the way. And do that. They say yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the treasury solicitor didn’t turn up to any of the things, she didn’t have to. She was in the right. Do you remember the treasury solicitor, the one with the little lisp and the gimpy leg?

LW: I can’t remember that now, Rich, I’m sorry.

RL: Yeah, she had that. She could just turn up and do that. And that’s what people don’t understand, that’s why the activists were fighting, that’s why the people from the tribes and all the people from everywhere come, because it was suddenly their eyes were opened. Hang on a minute, this is 1990, we shouldn’t be acting like this.

LW: What about democracy?

RL: There is no such thing as democracy. We live in a democratic society, but we don’t live in a democracy. And that was hammered down to me on numerous occasions. So going back to that, that is why, there was something… now if the government had been sensible, or if things had been sensible, you had a world class artists’ community in that area, world class, people coming from Poland, New York, everything, a world class artists’ community, you could of took that, re-furbed the houses, and had an artists’ community, and that would have been better that your Banksys, better than whatever. Because people there had real talent. Instead of that, they scattered us like we was just nothing. Oh no. Never forget. Never forgive.

LW: That’s right. I agree.

RL: Yep.

LW: Hello, it’s Laurence again. Some things that we don’t want you to forget: we had, we won the argument, but lost the battle.

LW: But won the war.

LW: But the point was, we knew, and everybody knew, this is the point, that the road would generate traffic, which it has, and just after that… so, it generated more traffic going into London, and guess what happened a little while afterwards. They started charging to drive into London, now I’m being… I don’t know, but it’s something to think about. Maybe if the M11 Link Road had never been built, it wouldn’t have generated so much traffic, and maybe you wouldn’t have to pay now, to drive into London, you’ll never know that, but it’s something to think about. Erm, there was, as you can appreciate, it broke up the community, there was…I haven’t got a note now, of how many houses were destroyed, and how many businesses were destroyed, now the point was, there was lots of little businesses all the way along the road, cycle shops I remember, little restaurants, I did have a note of the number and it can be checked anyhow. So you lost the people that lived near all those places, you lost those places, and also, the community that was left further back from the road, where it was built, lost the use and the jobs of those little firms that had gone. So they also lost. Some of the things I suppose, we had chants, I mean we went to loads of meetings and walks and all sorts of things, which you can check out on, but we had various chants, which always went down well, and whenever we had a meeting we’d say ‘em again. One of the chants was ‘Homes Not Road, Homes Not Roads, Homes Not Roads’ and another one, which is so applicable, you used to put your finger to your chest and say ‘our road today’, And then point your finger outwards and say ‘your road tomorrow’, because what you’ve got to remember, wherever a road is built, it never stops, it’ll be extended or branched off, so the less roads that are built, the more chance you have, whoever you are, of having another new road near you. Another chant that they used to use is ‘Cardboard city, not here’. At the time there was all these cardboard cities in London under arches etc. and in parks. This is before the influx of er, across from Europe and everything else, and erm, the threat was of course, that everybody would have to live in – make cardboard cities locally. That was another thing. Erm, there was loads of news rail and programmes made about it my the television and the radio, but I worked in television at the time, and they said there was nothing they could do much before the actual building because in television you have to have something to look at, and of course you looked at people protesting against the road being knocked down, or a house being knocked down, incidentally, there are some films you can see, You’ve got some films about it.

There’s ‘Life in the Fast Lane’ isn’t there?

LW: There’s several. But some of the high points, was the tower was a very famous thing that was taken, they built a big tower and people used to live in trees and have food up there so when they came to knock down, chop down the trees, they were up there and they didn’t come down because they were hungry and thirsty, cos there was always supplies of food and drink, on these things. Erm, what good did it do? Erm, there was one thing that it did, after the Labour, er, the Conservative party went, the Labour party came in and to begin with they realised what had happened, and they looked more favourably on public transport than roads, but of course time has moved, you’ve got a different government in and if you check the budget at the moment, the budget for er, railways has been put down, but the budget for roads hasn’t, so there we are, that’s how time moves on, so it’s a good thing for us to talk about this and take the message on. Obviously there’s young Turks coming along.

RL: Well I think all I would say is there’s two things I think to remember, in no order. The second thing is that if the government at the time had been more like the government today, the road wouldn’t have been built, because the government is now saying let’s spend so many billions on HS2, do this and do that, whereas if you’d looked at what like we were saying, a long time ago, if the money on the link road had been invested on railways, you would have got your over ground link, you would have got this, and then other countries in other parts of the world, like the Dutch, the French, the Germans, the Spanish, the Japanese, all got high speed trains, all can go from point a to point 2, and we was pootling along 60 mile an hour trains, and if you look at, they say now, that vehicles are no more fast than they were in the Victorian times, so all the billions upon billions spent on roads hasn’t created anything, it’s created a big mess. And also what he’s done, it’s not empowered people, it’s enslaved people, cos what happens now? Your out of town retail, out of town, you can get your out of town retail if you got a car, everything else, if you got a car. If you haven’t got a car you’re a very, very poor third class citizen, and that’s it. Where I come from people have got 4 cars, they’ve got massive great, Porch Kians (?) built like a T34 tank, but what’s the point of it? And the second thing what it done, it showed the ordinary person in the street the viciousness of the secret police, because it wasn’t the ordinary bobby on the beat that was beating us up and setting fire to the houses, and breaking people like Pooky’s hands, and kinking people and trying to rape the women, in Wanstonia and all, it wasn’t them, it was the TRG, and the Special Forces. That’s the people that were doing it, people like my mum who had lived through the Blitz couln’t believe the fact, and when they come to chuck me and mum out, and they were so violent and so evil, and they dradooned the ordinary coppers, now the ordinary coppers come in, they couldn’t believe it. They were crying their eyes out when they pushed old mum out, pulled old mum out

LW: On a stretcher

RL: On a stretcher, cos they thought she’s had a heart attack

LW: Which she probably did. She probably had.

RL: I think she just turned…she was 80 then, weren’t she?

LW: Very elderly lady

RL: 79, something like that, and the coppers… I know for a fact that there was WPCs who just put in their notice straight away, couldn’t take it, and one copper said to me, ‘I didn’t go through school just to do this, didn’t go through Hendon just to do all this’. And then do you remember at George Green there was people in the old bivvies’ there? They tried to set ‘em on fire, they set next door to me on fire three times and they called me back from work, they said the house is on fire, I come back from work, mum was sitting there having a cup of tea with the dog and she said ‘they’re not going to drive me out’, and the bloke from the old fire brigade said ‘cor, your mum’s a sparky old thing’, I said ‘blimey mate, the Luftwaffe couldn’t get her out, they ain’t gonna get her out’.

Can I just ask you about, you said ‘raping the women in Wanstonia’, what… can you just expand on that?

RL: Well, cos they were sleeping rough in the tops of the houses and that, a lot of the police thought ‘what a laugh’, you know, ‘they’re only down and outs, they’re only druggies, have a little bit of fun’, and that’s why there was a bloke called Mick Roberts, you remember Mick Roberts?

LW: Yes, I know Mick, yeah

RL: He was the sheriff, now Mick kept all… you’ve got to imagine, there’s a whole diverse group of people ranging from what you would call staid citizens to …

LW: Environmentalists…

RL: Druggies…

LW: Local citizens

RL: Psychos, nutters, everything, but they all come together, and that’s another thing that the government wet itself about

LW: Yeah

RL: Because it was always saying, just like today, ‘they’re the other side, oh don’t trust them, ohhh, THEM!’ Whoever ‘them’ are, but no, they all come together, and you’ve got people like Jacky Carpenter, like Mick Roberts, a lot of the others, Dolly was there, she was a great thing.

Mick Roberts, is Mick Roberts the person that often gets called Old Mick? I hear his name a lot

RL: Yeah, he was the Sheriff. You’ve gotta have a sheriff, and he was the sheriff, what Mick told you to do, you did, because if you didn’t do it…

LW: He was a big bloke actually

RL: He was a big bloke [both laugh]. But yeah, people there like John the Axe, you had Green Dave, you know, all the old druggies and stuff like that, but they were the foot soldiers, they were the people that were up the towers, in the trees, day after day, weather whatever… raid, wind and snow. They were the people up there, and then there was the technical people that were digging the tunnels, there was people like Reg and that, Quarter Mastering, doing all the quarter mastering stuff and stuff like that, making sure they had the proper food, stuff like that, and then the police, TRG boys would come down… ‘oh I think I’ll break someone’s…’ Do you remember that female copper broke Pookie’s arm? She was only 11 or 12 at the time, broke her arm.

Pookie, she was a child?

RL: Yeah, yeah, and then you had –

What happened?

RL: Oh, just took the idea, why don’t I break your arm? And that was it.

Was she doing anything?

RL: Na, Pookie was never quite… y’know… what… because the government was saying was ‘oh, look at these, scumbags, look at these, druggies and that, standing in our way, you don’t want them’. When in actual fact ‘they’ were more community spirited, they were more nice to people like Dolly, more nice to people like my mum, than the police, well, the TRG and that, no, and then they brought in special forces to burn places down and kick people, I mean I come back once and there’s half a dozen, well more than half a dozen blokes, about 10 blokes, and I do mean big blokes, going through a whole pile of what I can only call hors memoranda[?] in the back garden and my mum’s sitting there giving them cups of tea, so I comes in and mum says ‘oh, he’s a charming bloke’, big bloke, they’re the SAS, so I said to ‘im, ‘’scuse us brover, what do you want the SAS down here?’ He said ‘sorry mate, we’ve got to go through all these plastic bags to see if there’s anything in there’, I said ‘it’s horsel what’s it’, he said, ‘I found that out’. [both laugh]. About 20 bags of horse what’s it, I’m gonna put in on me garden. What else do you put on the garden? And there’s all these…and my old mum’s going ‘alright dear, do you want…?’ and bringing a bowl of water, ‘oh thanks ma’, and all that, you know, giving him these cups of tea, and my old mum thought it was a hoot. I said, ‘you’re meant to be scared mum’, oh no, it’s a great hoot, great laugh, you know. Poor old thing. But that’s what they didn’t understand, the more they pushed against us, the stronger we got. Simple as that. And we’re still here today.

I just also want to ask if Ros has got anything to add to the historical…because what I really would like to do soon is ask you all more about your personal involvement, but I want to know if you’ve got anything you want to add to the historical context?

RK: Well I haven’t got anything like the other two have said, because I wasn’t so involved at all, I just remember a friend of mine Julie, and Robin and their two little boys living in a lovely old house in um, er, what road was it? Near Connaught School anyway, and I used to visit them and they had a lovely big garden and it was a smashing house and they were artists, and ACME housing association, I think they lived in one of those and they were for you know, artists. And just the idea that their house was just razed to the ground and they moved back to Scotland, they were Scottish, and so memories like that. And erm, in this road, I think when I wrote to you, there was a young woman whose boyfriend lived up a tree. I can’t remember, I think her name was Angie, and I can’t remember the bloke’s name, but he ended up in Pentonville Prison and she wrote to him every day and when he came out he was so shattered by being in prison that he wasn’t a campaigner anymore…

LW: Well, that’s understandable…

Was he put in prison because of his involvement in the campaign?

RK: Yeah, I don’t know what they charged him with.

RL: Just disorder, and not following orders, breach of the peace? I mean look at Anna and Rebecca, they got put away in the Holloway, didn’t they? For 3 or 4 days. Remember them?

LW: I remember them, but I don’t remember…well there was so much happening, wasn’t there, at the time? It was a long road, so you might have been involved in one part down one end, and something else was happening at the other.

RL: And of course at the same time there was no, there was… I won’t say there was no clear command structure, but there was a structure where you didn’t want everybody to know… because you didn’t know where the secret police were. And there’s that Mark Kennedy fiasco, the secret police had to be there, we knew there had to be spies, obvious.

LW: But we couldn’t tell who it was.

RL: Telling who people what where. You know.

And has that ever come out?

RL: We’re waiting for the 30 year rule, to let us know.

So you still don’t know if there…

LW: There was, there was

I’m sure there were, but I wondered whether you knew who they were yet?

RL: I’ll say another thing about the police. I delivered a load of coal to them in Wanstonia [activists, not police], when I had the old land rover and the copper said ‘do you want a hand mate?’, I said ‘if you don’t mind’, and the police came and helped us give the coal to the activists, and they said ‘you’re doing a good job, good boy, doing a good job’. Because they could see that that community was being ripped apart, for no good reason, so at the same time, yes, the community was putting up a fight, even the police were goin…and a lot of them police would now be senior coppers, wouldn’t they? Senior bods in the…

LW: Yeah, or even retired even.

RL: Retired or whatever, they keep that in there. They saw what the government was doing and they, the police was almost in open revolt against the government for cuts and stuff like that, you know, all those activists, you don’t just walk away and forget it, it’s up here.

RK: I remember being in Wanstead and some of the local people, I think I was on a bus with a banner, going to a march and a lot of the more conservative older people were very much against the campaign because they thought that most of the campaigners were the people who’s been in…was it Oxley’s? Other campaigns…

RL: Oxley’s Wood.

RK: Yeah, and they were outsiders coming in to try and, you know, campaign locally, but it wasn’t I mean there were some people from those, but there were a lot of local people and I found it very interesting on the marches because you had some really respectable looking elderly people marching along with all the kind of hippies and hairies and everybody else.

So you’re saying that they objected to the road, but they also objected to the campaign?

RK: I don’t know if they did object to the campaign, all they seemed to be bothered with was these outsiders coming in to our area, you know.

And do you know why they thought that was a problem?

RK: Well they didn’t explain. I s’pose people coming in and poking their nose into our business, you know.

LW: But it did alter, it did alter, because when they realised, the local people, you’re talking about the Wanstead area, when they realised that their environment was going to be bad, and the road was definitely going to be built, they suddenly realised that anybody that put up any resistance should be supported, and they used to come down with food and drink. They used to come with food and drink, because they realised that there had to be opposition, and of course they were at work and middle aged and god knows what else, they couldn’t do it, so somebody else did it for them and they were supported by the local people in the end. That part. They were supported by local people in Leyton and Leytonstone right from the word go, but Wanstead it was a little bit different.

RL: I think also at the same time, they suddenly took a step back and I think some of them took a step back and thought this is insane, you’re building a road at how many billions, and we’re talking about in the 90s, when billions were billions, if you know what I mean, and it’s insane it’s not gonna work, I mean, often people would come to me and say I’ve read this, I’ve seen this on the news, it can’t be right, I say, no, it’s absolutely right, that’s how much it’s gonna cost. And people were saying, but… the safety aspect… you’ll notice that when the road was built, at St Patrick’s Cemetery, there’s just a wide fence, everywhere else is enclosed brickwork. That wire fence had to be there because if there was a pile up on the road and many people got crushed to death or killed, there’d be nowhere to take ‘em out. So that’s to take the bodies out there. So hard luck if you had a crash up by Green Man, they’d have to card you all the way down to St Pat’s Cemetery. The whole thing was an insane design, but no, no, no, the government said, we are going to build it.

What do you… why was it so important for the government to build this road?

RL: I think the government, it started off, I think they just wanted to build the Abercrombie plan and open up the Stratford lands, that’s money, that’s profit. But when the activists got in they suddenly, being like Thatcher and that… we can’t have the common folk rising, oh no, otherwise the Tumbrels will be going down Pall Mall, and I think they just got genuinely terrified of the local people joining together, people like Laurie, me, Ros, people you would call Staid people, and then the activists, and then there was people who were like puffin’ and snortin’, and quite intelligent people, Dolly would take ‘em out a cup of tea. Mum would take ‘em out a cup of tea, and it was that juxtaposition of the elderly… it was a community that had suddenly been brought together.

So it was the coming together of all these different people…

RL: And a community, and all of a sudden the powers that be thought we can’t have that, we have to divide and rule. We can’t have people coming together, and you see the same thing today, ‘oh well, they’ve come from so and so, they’ve come from so and so, we mustn’t talk to them, cos they’re different’. No, they’re not different, we’re all the same, we’re all trying to scratch a living on this planet, and the government couldn’t deal with that, just couldn’t deal with it, and the more we was explaining, and the more we was proving, and getting quite intelligent people to prove that the government was wrong, the government was starting to wet itself, thinking ‘Jeez we can’t do that…’ just in case… because the Archway people had joined us as well. Now the Archway proved that they couldn’t build a road up the Archway Road, because at one time they were going to build a motorway up through the Archway, you know.

Archway in North London?

RL: Hampstead, yeah. Up that way yeah, and they joined us. That’s where Colin Bex come from. And the others, I’ve forgotten their names now the people…

So was there a protest site there as well then?

RL: Oh yeah, that’s where we got all the technical people from. They was like the Jeremy Corbyns of the day, left wing, very intellectual people, very rich. That’s what the government couldn’t stand, it couldn’t stand intelligent people, you know? And then when you had little old ladies like mum and Dolly and that, standing around going ‘well, Hitler didn’t catch us, you won’t’, they couldn’t stand it. They couldn’t stand people standing against them, so they had to crush them.

So it was a show of power, essentially?

RL: Well it was a show of power without a shadow of a doubt. You bring the high sheriff of London in, and the bailiffs, all the bailiffs done was steal everything, and the police were standing by saying… I remember my brother, my elder brother coming in saying ‘you can’t steal that’, and the bailiffs saying ‘I’m a bailiff from the High Sheriff; I can do what I please.’ And even the Chief Inspector was saying, ‘well, I don’t want you stealing that’. And he told him to get lost, or words to that effect, if you know what I mean. And the guy said ‘look, off’, said, ‘what?’, said ‘I’m a bailiff’. And yet we proved that some of them were on the doll, claiming doll money, cos we took their number plates and we had friends everywhere, friends in government, friends in the police, friends everywhere. And they were reading the number plates, ‘oh, well that bloke’s been claiming doll for 10 years’. ‘Oh yeah well I’m a bailiff ‘en’t I? I don’t need to pay tax’. And a lot of these people were quite well off, these so called bailiffs, yeah, cos they were thieving everything. When people saw that the emperor didn’t have any clothes, and that is something which is engrained in the people that were in the M11 Campaign, and engrained in other people. Alright, we might have been spread far and wide, but that was engrained in ‘em. And as I say: never forgive, never forget.

RK: I think it would be interesting to see what has happened to all the people who were in the campaign, whether they’ve gone off to other campaigns. And the legacy thing, as I understand, that after all this, um, there weren’t too many new roads being proposed, because the government knew that there’d be this protest again.

RL: Yeah.

LW: That’s right.

RK: So they gave it a bit of a pause, but maybe after the pause they’ve started up again, because that’s what they do isn’t it?

LW: The government altered as well.

RL: I don’t think you’ve seen any major road built through a conurbation, like the M11. I think the M11 was the last road that has ever been built through a major conurbation. Could you imagine them building a motorway through London now? Wouldn’t happen.

LW: A couple of odd little points, erm, the local community was destroyed of course, obviously, because of the width of the land they took, and the houses they took, and of course in those days, you’re going back, a lot of people had lived there a long while, now-a-days people move houses far faster than they did then, so the local community was broken up, and what was also sad that the older folk, it was too much of a strain of them and they all died very shortly…no disrespect to you Richard…

RL: No, my mum didn’t last too long afterwards…

LW: And there was several older people that died very quickly after it because the change from the local community, and they knew Mrs… they knew most of the people in the street, because as I said, people didn’t move so much, and they felt relaxed, they’re old, but they felt relaxed, and they go to a new place and of course the strain on the old folk meant many of them died…

RL: Well it was that, and also, what it was, is that they, like with my mum, they couldn’t believe that the government did what they did. You know, they couldn’t believe it. They couldn’t believe that in this country, you would be treated like that. And we’re talking about the 1990s, they just couldn’t believe it. It was almost like, you know, my mum used to say, ‘well I could understand if Hitler come in, but I bet he wouldn’t have built the road’. Couldn’t understand how the government, and in Colville Road there was quite a few elderly, Edwardian ladies, and one that was close to us, she said ‘I can’t believe it.’ You know, ‘I just can’t believe it.’ And then she died before the road come through, a lot of the others, like… I forget their names, Whinny… she died cos, before the road come through, she… they kept pressing her to sell, to sell, to sell…and she just couldn’t understand it, and then there was strange men walking all through her garden. ‘What you doing there?’ ‘Oh, we’re surveying, love’. She couldn’t understand it, and she died.

In the email that you wrote to me, you said something along those lines. You said ‘I remember someone listing all the people who died as a result of the struggle’… were those the kind of people that you meant?

LW: Dolly, it was Dolly, wasn’t it?

RL: Dolly, yeah, Dolly. Mrs… I forget her last name.

RK: Well, I don’t know if it was you Laurie actually, saying all those years ago, all the people who’d died. It was in a meeting I think. And whether it was just these very elderly people you mentioned or other people as well, I don’t know. Do you remember other people who’ve died?

RL: Oh yeah… there were quite… I mean mainly it was the elderly people, but there were quite a few, because Dolly died, you had erm, mum died, then Mrs. Win died, I don’t know what her last name was, but then you had, erm, I think that family in Grove Green Road that had the autistic boy, erm, the police come in and…

Was that an artist family?

RL: I think it was yeah, had an artistic boy, and he was in the front garden, the police stormed in, they said ‘what are you doing here?’ And he, ‘what?’ and before he could say anything else, he was bundled in the Black Maria and off he went. And there was a lot of other people that were, as I say, with Pookie, she was beaten up, there was others that were beaten up. And you’ve only got to look at some of the films to see the way they drag ‘em off the trees and drag ‘em off, trying to cut the wire underneath ‘em so they fall down and kill themselves. Dropping bricks of ‘em, which was a frequent thing with the old police, broken the old chimney, drop a brick down, ‘oh sorry, gov’ner, did I drop that brick on yer head?’ You know, that was the TIG that was doing it.

LW: The ordinary police were reasonable.

TIG?

RL: TIG’s the Territorial Response Group? Or something…

LW: I’m not sure that they still exist, because they got a bad name, so they altered the name.

RL: They got rid of them.

LW: They deal with Sellafield, you know.

RL: They was the riot squad, the heavy thug boys. And they were basically designed to beat the bejesus out of people basically.

RK: But I think this is sometimes how people learn about what the world is really like when, you know, they’ve been a bit naïve before, but then…

LW: I was, I was naïve…

RL: We were.

LW: One of the… anybody listening to this, or writing about it, it just shows how important that you do have community environmentalists who are active to stop this even happening. I remember when I went to some of the original meetings , long before there was a no M11 Link Road Campaign, and the people who came to the meeting stood up and said ‘oh, they’ve been talking about building a road through this area since the war, it’ll never happen.’ And that was it. People, a lot of people thought it would never happen, but it did.

RL: Well I thought it’d never happen because as time went on you could see the insanity of it.

LW: But, er, what was I going… sorry, I lost it.

That’s alright, we can come back to it. Can we just go back, and I’d like to hear about all your personal involvements, because I’m getting glimmers from what you’re saying, but it would be really useful to just hear about how…

RL: Well I think you’ll find that the true story will never be told.

What do you mean?

RL: Well because there’s many things we did and done…

Okay. I’m not particularly asking you to reveal any criminal activities that you may or may not have done…

LW: No! No criminal activities!

RL: No, prosecutor, no criminal activities. We’re all honest gov’ner.

[All laugh]

LW: Obstructive, yes.

I’m more interested in your personal histories, you know, how long… I mean I’m hearing lots… I know a little bit about you because I come across you in research a lot, I read your name here and there, but it’s be really useful just for the sake of the tape to hear about your history. Were you born in the area?

RL: Well if you want the… do you want the funny side of it or not?

I want the funny side and I want the serious side.

RL: Well the funny side is that me, er… I was the second boy, of three, and I was born of the 1^st January 1949. Of which was a great surprise to my mum, a considerable annoyance to my dad. Reason being of course, my mum got the twinge, and she said to my dad, ‘oops, I think he’s coming’. The old fella took her out, 1^st January, no busses. So the old fella says ‘well we’ll have to walk’, all the way to the mother’s home at Clapton. My mum declined, needless to say.

Where was she living at the time?

RL: At Colville Road.

LW: IN the house that was knocked down and she was dragged out of.

RL: So my mum gave a cheery quip, of which we will not say, so the old fella noticed a fire brigade, a fire engine come along, says, ‘s’cuse us gov’ner…’ pushed my mum on, says ‘see ya later girl’, so the bloke says ‘aren’t you coming with her?’, so my dad says ‘well this is her second, so she knows what to do’.

[All laugh]

LW: Things were different in those days.

RL: Totally different. Needless to say, the bloke ease my old fella onto the fire engine.

LW: You were born in the mother’s hospital?

RL: Yeah, I was born in the mother’s hospital at Clapton.

LW: At Hackney.

RL: At Hackney, yeah. No, Clapton! Don’t dare call it Hackney.

LW: Oh right, well I always call it Hackney, and I was born there as well.

Is that the Salvation Army…?

RL: Yeah, Salvation army

LW: And my brother was born there as well.

RL: And the funny thing about that was, as soon as they dropped mum off, my dad done a runner, cos he said to the bloke on the fire engine, going back Leyton Fire Station, ‘going back mate?’, Going back, yeah, ‘drop me off. Thank you very much’. So my mum’s wheeled into the thing, and all the girls, everybody born there was girls, so my mum said ‘great, I got a little girl’, [makes raspberry sound to denote the birth of a child], out I come. ‘Oh no, it’s a little boy.’

[All laugh]

RL: And that’s how I come into the world. Lived in Colville Road all my life. Super place. Had a nice big garden.

LW: Near the station, to get to work.

RL: Near the station. My old boy, worked on the railway, my dad. So he used to wait until the steamer come along, ‘any chance of a lift mate?’, ‘yeah, hop on mate’, over the back garden, get the old steamer to Stratford Depot, that’s how he used to do it.

[All laugh]

RL: He loved the railway.

LW: So we all did, and do.

RL: And that’s where I was born, born in Colville Road, and then I’d heard stories of my old dad telling me about the M11… not the M11 Link Road at that time, but the road, and the old boy was a great union bloke, and he was a great Labour bloke, and one of our family, supposedly, had helped Kier Hardy in West ham, so the old boy was cut my heart Labour through and through. So he said, ‘no. If the government want it, I’m against it’. Seems perfectly sensible to me. So that was it, him and the others had fought, there was a Mr Gunn as well. They got enough money, went all around the houses, got ten bob which was a lot of money in them days, to pay for a QC. QC went up and argued his thing, plan was dropped. That’s what the old fella done. So when the M11 come along, my mum said to me, ‘well, obviously you’re gonna fight it’, which was true, and that’s how it started up, so we could have took the money and run, cos they was buying off the house owners, the home owners. Owner occupiers were the main thing to get rid of, because they had a little bit more legal clout than the others.

So were your family owner occupiers?

RL: Er, at the time I was, yeah, well actually I paid off the mortgage the day they threw me out, which was very good.

LW: Yeah, but you’re still an owner occupier.

RL: Yeah, we started out as renting, then as owner occupier, and that was it.

And so they offered you the money, and you refused?

RL: Declined politely, I think the…

Politely declined…

RL: Yeah, I was never gonna take the money.

And did most other people…

RL: Most people did, yeah. I think I was the only owner occupier left I think. I think I was. I might be wrong on that, but I think I was.

Was there ever a compulsory purchase order on your house?

RL: Oh yeah, [LW joins in]: they were all compulsory purchased

But as I’d understood it, and correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought that a lot of them were… they reached arrangements outside of compulsory purchase order… and then…

RL: Some did, some didn’t. What you did, before you get the compulsory purchase order…

LW: Offer to Treat, is that the word?

RL: You get Notice to Treat.

LW: Oh, notice to treat.

Notice to Treat.

RL: And what happens is, the government gives you a notice to treat, and the notice to treat basically says, ‘we would like to buy your house, this is the price we set, and if you don’t so it, we’ll come and knock it down, throw you out. Put you on a compulsory purchase order and throw you out’. Now the difference between this country… I’m talking about then, I don’t know about now, but the difference between this country and other countries like France, is that in this country they only give you 85% of what the house is worth, because the other 15% is their cost for throwing you out. You pay them to throw you out. Whereas in France, they pay you something like 125% .

LW: Yeah, that’s right. At this time, we’re not sure now, ‘cos we’re not on battles like that, but at that time, in Europe, er they always used to pay people more than the house was worth to get you out

As compensation?

LW: Yeah. And in this, in our country, as Richard said, they’ll pay as little as possible.

RL: What the plan was, if that’d been the case, I had a cellar, and the plan was going to be that I’d take the money, move out, and then silly old me, inadvertently leave the coal hole open, silly old me. And then someone would – naughty boy, or naughty girl – would lift the coal hole up, slip in through the cellar, and squat the house.

LW: Squat the house!

So did that happen?

RL: No it didn’t

LW: But it happened… it must have happened to loads of them.

So they threw you out. So tell me about the day that they evicted you.

RL: They day before, I think it was a Friday or something like that, but the day before, or a couple of days, no the day before, the Sheriff had turned up, and had said to me, ‘look, look, look, all credit, you don’t a good job, but you got to think of your old mum, and you’re not going to win this one’. And the Council had come to see me and said, ‘look, we got this house, gonna put you in a house, you’re not going to win this one’, and unnamed sources shall we say, had said ‘no problem, no worry, we know how to get in, and we’ll get in, and we’ll squat the place, make sure you get the kit out, and we’ll squat the place’. No problem. So then that was on the Thursday, and the council had come to see me, and had arranged, they said ‘look, what we’re going to do is we’ll put everything into storage, you can go and live in this house, and if you don’t like it, we’ll find you another one’.

And where was the house?

RL: I don’t know, it never occurred to me to ask them, you know. So I said well okay then, fair enough, and then on the Saturday, bear in mind I got thrown out on the Friday I think it was, on the Saturday we was going to go and look at the house, and I said to mum, ‘look, let’s go and have a look at the house, if you don’t like it, we’ll find somewhere else’, because the people that were advising me, the surveyors, the lawyers and everything, said ‘look you’re not going to get your money straight away, but we will screw ‘em, because we can screw ‘em’. Great stuff. So that’s that. Well on the Friday, because the activists had gone and sat on top on MacGregor’s house, and upset Mrs. MacGregor, having tea…

LW: He was a department…

RL: He was the Secretary of State for Transport. MacGregor said ‘Right, I’m going to throw ‘em out. End of story.’ So at 7 O’clock in the morning, they smashed the front door in. Easy way to get into a place, you know. No bother about locks or anything, just smashed the door in.

That was on the Friday?

RL: Yeah. Smashed the door in. 50 odd cops come in with riot shields and things like that, smashing the place up, as they do

Your mum was in the house?

RL: Mum and me was in

LW: They were in bed, yeah.

RL: In bed. So my mum gets up and says ‘hello love, what’s going on?’ So I said ‘I think we’ve been raided’. At that she wasn’t that bothered about at first, but the shock hit her, you know?

LW: And so she had to go out on a stretcher

RL: Out on a stretcher

LW: That was all on the news.

RL: On TV and that.

LW: On the news.

RL: And all the coppers were crying and that. Some of them were crying their eyes out. Even the men. They said ‘oh we was told there was a load of squatter in here’, and that, and the TRGs going [put’s on thuggish voice] ‘oh yeah, we were up for it’, and mum was saying, ‘well don’t you think you’re really silly boys?’, you know, you’ve got an 80 year old lady saying to these hard [makes noise] ready for a riot, ‘don’t you think you’re silly boys?’, and they went, ‘well sorry, ma’, and that was it. That’s how they threw us out. So I went next door with John and Elaine, they took me in, and my brother come from work, and he put me and mum up for a year until we could get a place in Ilford.

And so they didn’t rehouse you?

RL: No.

Did you get any kind of compensation?

RL: Oh, compensation was, ‘we were going to give you compensation, but actually it’s cost us a lot of money to throw you out, so we’ll wait and see.’ So by this time I’d got lawyers involved, obviously and we went to the court and we was arguing with the judge, and the judge just looked at all the paper work and said ‘I can’t believe this’, and I said ‘well it’s not me saying this, it’s, you know,’ and he kept asking for the treasury’s solicitor to turn up, no treasury solicitor turned up, so in the end he got fed up, said ‘right, [inaudible], right’, so he granted me position of all the stuff, so then the lawyer started arguing prices and stuff like that, and true to their nature, they did screw the government. So at the end of the day the government had to pay more, but there was a think that really did make me laugh, because next door, John and Elaine had the same sort of house that I had, so the official bloke from the government come in and says [puts on plumby voice] ‘oh I’m coming in here to survey your house. It’s a three bedroom house…’

RK: That was John Ellis?

LW: Yeah, famous musician that lived next door…

RL: ‘Three bedroomed house!’ Actually it’s a four bedroom house, but I’ve knocked down one of the walls. ‘So it’s a three bedroomed house’. I said ‘okay, please yourself, it’s a three bedroomed house’, ‘ohh, I’m going to charge you…’ whatever it was, I think it was 72,000 or something like that, which was, the house was really worth something like 85,000. 72,000. So I said ‘na, I don’t think I’ll agree with that’. ‘oh,’ he said, ‘three bedroom, blah, blah, blah. I looked at all the survey, the estate agents, and a three bedroomed house…’, I said ‘yeah, but I tell you what’ I said, ‘brother, find me a house with such a big front room, cos we’d knocked the two bedrooms into a front room’ I said ‘find me a big house with that, and I’ll go with your valuation.’ I said ‘actually, it’s like next door’, he said ‘arrr, I don’t believe in all that’. And that was it, everybody was totally nuts, you know, there was no joined up thinking, and as I say, when they threw us out, they put all the stuff in storage, course the storage companies said…they were only paid a couple of weeks, and the storage companies said ‘no, can’t be bothered with that’, so it was all out in another unguarded place, and a lot of the stuff go soaking wet and a lot of valuable stuff got soaked wet. The bailiffs were weeing on the mattresses, weeing on everything, you know, you cannot believe what it was like. And you cannot believe that we’re talking about Britain in the 1990s. It worse than some…

LW: Absolute power corrupts, and the government at that time had a big majority, you know, it was Mrs Thatcher’s mob, and they had a big majority and they could do what they like, and the fear is, of course, what’s going to happen at the next election.

RL: Well it’s that and also, you know the fact is they’ve not learned anything have they? They still think ‘oh, why don’t we build roads? Predict and provide. Why don’t we just treat the people…’ You know, like they treated the minors and stuff like that.

LW: Oh yeah, that was going on of course at the same time.

RL: Yeah. You cannot treat people, if you treat people like that… people have said to me after the M11, it was a miracle people didn’t rise up, you know.

And was there much kind of, joined up thinking between what was going on with the minors and the roads, was there any kind of…

RL: No, I don’t think the minors were that interested in the M11.

LW: I er…

I mean the road building programmes…

RL: Twyford Down and Oxley’s Wood, and all the others, a lot of the others down on the south coast, yeah, we was keeping, when some of them had done their service on the M11, they’d go to Oxley’s, or they’d go to … and then they’d come back. There was a constant stream of foot soldiers, you know.

LW: There was a tie up with the minors, because there was a march in London and I know I went on it and I had the banner, I was with the banner, and people couldn’t work out why No M11 Link Road was tied in with the ….it was the minors wasn’t it?

RL: It was the minors and us and a whole lot of other people against Thatcher’s cuts, cos at that time even Thatcher was doing cuts. She was cutting things and that, time never changes.

LW: I know people said ‘well what have you got about this?’, and they said ‘well you know, that’s the alternative to er… er… it was the…no it must have been the railway workers. I think, I can’t remember which one it was.

RL: It was something like that. It was a major…massive great left wing sort of oriented march. It went to parliament didn’t it? Thousands of people went to parliament and it was against I think it was against the cuts and stuff like that. But it was a show of people power and the tories weren’t having any of that.

RK: Um, cos I’ve got to go in about 10 minutes, I just wanted to say, the person who lived in this house when I first moved in Marshal Coleman, do you remember Marshal? I think he designed the Tunnel It! Poster. Now he might be happy to talk to you, he’s in St Albans now, and I just remember the, you know, where we had those little events at the Leytonstonia, there was something very artistic and creative, you know, when people on the left get together they’re very good at creating art and wit and I hope that comes out in what you do. There was something else I wanted to say, what was it?

I’ve got loads of notes from your email. You’ve talked about Angie, erm, you said that they had a baby, they lived in a tree and that they had a baby…

RK: Well he lived in a tree but after he came out of prison they kind of settled down as a conventional nuclear family I think.

Okay, so he lived in a tree before he went into prison.

Yeah, he was, yeah.

Erm, you said something nice about erm, going to Leytonstonia and singing They’re Going To Build A Motorway Through My Back Garden.

RK: Oh, that song, do you remember it?

I wanted to ask you all if you remembered that song.

LW: No.

RK: I just sang it once. I mean I can send it to you, it’s by Leon Rosselson. But I don’t know what made him, whether this campaign was what made him write it, but we can ask him. I can give you his details as well.

Oh, do you have his details? You know him?

RK: I know him, yeah.

Okay, great, because I did find the clip on youtube, and I watched it and I couldn’t work out if it was related originally.

RK: Remind me to give you his details.

Okay, I’m just whizzing through the things that I wanted to ask you about, erm before you have to go. We’ve talked about that… dying as a result of the struggle. You talked about a wonderful evening you had in St John’s Church.

RK: Of yeah. That was only a few years ago, there was a vicar called Raymond Draper who was a bit of a lefty, his church was used for things, and I forget what date it was, that event

RL: I think it was something like the… was it…

LW: It was an anniversary date, and I got them doing the chant in the church. He didn’t mind.

RL: It was an anniversary, and it was either the 10^th or the 15^th year or something like that. You know, the beginning of the campaign, not the end of it, but the beginning, ‘cos the campaign lasted quite a few years.

RK: And I don’t know whose idea it was to have this event, but it was very moving, and people were standing up with their memories and they showed none of these films didn’t they?

RL: That’s it, yeah.

RK: So that was great.

Do you remember any of the memories that particularly stood out from the evening?

RK: I don’t think I do. I don’t know if you do.

RL: No. There was another one at the Gannets, where that bloke wrote… one of the guys… he was supposed to be on the M11, but he wrote a book…

LW: Oh, that’s right, yeah, I’ve got it somewhere. It was at Gannets, so Gannets might be able to have some details about that.

Gannets?

RW: At the Hornbeam. You know, gannets café. In How Street in Walthamstow.

Yeah, I know. So Gannets in at the Hornbeam, is it?

RK: It used to be called Gannets Restaurant. But it’s not called that anymore I don’t think.

RL: But he was there, and I remember it vividly, because I was blaming the tory government for all the woes of road building and some guy at the back says ‘no it wasn’t, it was all filthy labour’. And everybody… I thought, this bloke’s gonna get lynched. And they just said to him something like, politely, ‘do you wanna go elsewhere mate?’

RK: I remember Thatcher was against trains. Which could explain this passion for the road. She hated trains didn’t she?

Do you know why she hated trains?

LW: Yes. I know why. Mrs Thatcher thought that everybody who wasn’t a sponger had to own their own house, and have their own car and drive to work, because they’d made it. Well, whilst first of all you can’t have more than one managing director, so, when you think about it, it was a silly idea, plus I mean in a city, you’ve only got to travel on the underground, if you had everybody on the underground in London and most cities in this country, if they all drove in, it wouldn’t work. So she was bally wrong, but… the soldiers won the Falkland war for her, and what I can’t understand why the Conservative government at the moment have cut back on the military, because they saved the day for Mrs Thatcher, I just can’t work that out, but I suppose it’s the same old story, the people that were in charge in those days aren’t in charge anymore, so it’s different thinking.

RK: Research shows that whenever you build a road, more traffic happens.

LW: Oh yeah. But that was known…

RL: Since Roman times

LW: Yeah, that’s been known, that was known at the time, as I mentioned to you.

RL: See I think with Thatcher, if you’re gonna take the ridiculous to the sublime if you know what I mean. If you go back through political history, way, way back in political history the conservatives promised to destroy the triple three, the triple alliance, that was minors, electricians and the railways. The dockers. Dockers, railway and the minors. Cos those three could hold the country to ransom. She got rid of the dockers, they got rid of the minors, then crushed the railway. And that’s what they did. [?]come along, got rid of all those things, crushed the railways. And as for why she don’t like the railways, someone once said to me, and I’m sure it’s absolutely true, she must have been stuck in one of those ladies only carriages, only to find, she wasn’t a lady and got fined. In them days you had women only coaches, d’you remember them?

LW: Yeah, I do actually.

RL: And that’s what someone said to me. I think he wasn’t a fan of Margaret Thatcher.

LW: There was a lot of things that happened, I mean there was art exhibitions, there was an old house that was going to be knocked down, inside, all the walls and everything were painted and it was absolutely fantastic, you know, painted on the bare plaster, you know, it was an artistic site.

Where was that?

RL: Claremonty

LW: Claremont.

Claremont Road.

LW: Odd things happened, I mean there was the… there’s an old film called Passport to Pimlico, when Pimlico tried to become an independent country, it’s a very old film, a very funny film as well, Ealing Comedy, worth maybe a look. And we… well, I wasn’t involved, but the campaign as such, and the active members erm, they tried to declare Wanstonia as an independent country.

RL: Well they did. It was.

LW: And then again we all linked arms around the …round it. There was all sorts of ideas.

And did you have passports as well? I read somewhere that…people made…

LW: Did they actually make…?

RL: No, they did make little passports.

LW: I didn’t have one. I didn’t have one.

RL: Little passport… because the bizarre thing is that you can declare an independent country, and if it’s recognised by the UN you are an independent country, so Wanstonia became independent.

Was it recognised by the UN?

RL: Yeah, it was. It actually was. These are clever people I’m telling you about. And then, because when the tree, they had the bivvy up the tree….

LW: Wanstead

RL: They said well… on Wanstead, George Green… they found out that if you get a postcode it became a residence

LW: And they got one!

RL: So they got one. They got a postcode.

LW: And postmen delivered letters there. Up the tree.

RL: And then when they come to get rid of them, the guy quite accurately said you’ve not sent me a notice to the tree. You’ve not sent me a compulsory purchase order. ‘Go back and do your paperwork’. So they had to go back and go through all the long thing of doing this, before obviously they cut the tree down. But that’s how they were doing it. There was an awful lot of clever people.

RK: Yeah, I think that’s what I’d like to emphasise, that whenever you get a campaign on the left, there’s a huge amount of lateral thinking, of wit, of skills, of artistry and this was very much the case.

RL: The sheer brain power involved was phenomenal.

That’s really coming through on this project, the creativity, the wit, the humour.

RK: Well people have got photos…

RL: Apparently my older brother found a lot of photos on the web somewhere, but the one thing that was missed was that in Claremont there was a house with I think it was three or four… Maureen might have a photo of it…

Maureen Measure?

RL: Yeah. There’s three or four prancing horses that were…

Yeah. She…I’ve got a photo of those horses from Maurine, its lovely.

RL: Send it to us, if you don’t mind. As Ros says, there was so much creativity, and at the same time there was people coming from Poland, New York, all this sort of stuff, it was just….it just formed didn’t it. It wasn’t planned because obviously there was a campaign to stop the road, there was a campaign to cheese the government off, but other people were coming in and to look at a lot of ‘em, they were sort of like dressed sort of like tramps and sort of like that, brain capacity was phenomenal, phenomenal brain capacity. When you got all that people together, bouncing off of one another, I mean nowadays they call it hothouse or something like that don’t they, I mean you had all those brain capacity, and they was intelligent people that had been to university and done Masters and all that. And then there was the old foot soldiers like us weren’t there.

So you were part of the official…

LW: He was the Chairman. The chairman of the No M11 Link Road.

RL: Homes not Roads!

LW: That’s right.

So can you just describe to me what the relationship, or the dynamic was between the official No M11 Link Road Campaign, and the environmentalists, the activists? Were you working side by side, or…?

LW: Well they were all together.

RL: We talked to one another, then they did what they wanted to do, and we did what we wanted to do.

Okay, so there wasn’t that much…

RL: There was a lot of meetings, co-ordination meetings, but because we were obviously very aware of the secret police being around, and bearing in mind that the police, not the bobbies, but the TIG had shown just what they were like, and bearing in mind people had been set on fire on George Green, and people had been…

LW: Cars vandalised. Remember when they went down the road, someone went down the road and vandalised all the cars.

RL: People had been… and there was an awful lot of nastiness, so we kept very quiet about what we was doing, and who was doing what. So there was quarter masters that were collecting stuff and getting food in.

LW: We had our own chef

RL: There was people going to see the trades and asking the trades ‘can you do this, can you do that?’, and we were getting people helping us, there were people giving us donations.

LW: Majestic Wines at Wanstead, we had a demo there, and they gave us a crate of coca cola, cos we were all talking through mega-phones [laughs]

RL: I don’t know if people… you’d have to check with the people if they were wanting to be known, but Erith and Co. which is still at Leytonstone, they were superb at giving us an awful lot of stuff.

Erith and Co? What did they do?

LW: Building supplies.

RL: Building supplies. There was people down the old cash and carry at Drapers Ground that were giving us food, and there was an awful… I mean we was producing …we had military guys there and they have us a thing of how to produce a 7 day pack. So we was producing 7 day packs

LW: Which you put of the trees

RL: Stick on the trees

LW: Because if the people… and in the attics of the houses. You see what happened was, they used to surround the place with yell- we used to call them yellow bellies, which is the security guards because is cheaper than paying the police, because oh god, you gotta pay union rates for the police, when yellow bellies you can get cheap. And you had the yellow round, so you couldn’t get in and out, you had the people in the trees and in the houses, obviously, they’ve got to eat and drink, if you haven’t got anything in stock, you know, you’re starved out, aren’t you? So we had all these…

RL: …7 day packs.

RK: Sorry, I’ve got to go, I erm, can give you Marshal and Leon’s contact details if you contact me. As I say Polly, what I’d be very interested in would be the legacy, what people did with all this experience, if it’s led onto them doing other things of other sorts, if that can come up.

Yeah… You want me to pause the recorder. Okay.

[Some conversation not transcribed – asides. LW leaves the room]

RL: Like Laurie says, about the yellow bellies, when they were on Trelawn Road, which is a road near Colville Road, these poor blokes were like, quite scared because we can, on mass, we can project like the, er, presumably what the emperor saw when he saw queen Astrid coming along from the huns, ‘oh! There’s the huns over there!’ and these poor blokes were a bit worried, so we said ‘don’t worry mate, we’re not interested…’ and it turns out they’d come from Sierra Leone, and the government was employing guards from Sierra Leone, now what happened was, is afterwards, the government said ‘well you’re illegal immigrants! Go back home!’

[LW returns. Some conversation not transcribed]

LW: You’d better have a look at this stuff and see …

[LW Produces a bag of leaflets, placards, newspaper cuttings etc. to show interviewer]

RL: I was just saying to Polly, you talking about those security guards… they come from Sierra Leone!

LW: Well, no. They were all sorts. There was Irish, there was all sorts. You know, people who were short of a job. You know.

But a lot of them were kicked out of the country after that?

RL: Yeah, that’s what they say, whether it’s true or not.

LW: I don’t know. I don’t know.

RL: There’s a lot of um, is it allegorical things? You know what I mean. A lot of myth and mythology.

So this is a beautiful plastic bag…

RL: I got cardboard in it because …to hold it up you see. There are what we used to hold up.

‘East London says No to the M11 Link Road’

[Some backwards and forwards conversation about the material not transcribed]

‘Peaceful direct action, stop the M11 Link’

LW: We had our own newspaper, it was called The Road Breaker.

And who was responsible for the Road Breaker? Was that the official campaign, or was it…?

RL: No, it wasn’t us, it was the activists that were doing that. Obviously we all put stuff in it and that.

So there was a friendly relationship between you and the activists…

RL&LW: Oh yes.

LW: It was…

RL: we were never against one another, we were always erm… obviously there was people that was… you know there was …cos obviously the activists realised that owner occupiers were at risk of losing everything, because they could have just, as they tried to do, make you pay for the entire thin, you know? But it was great fun.

And Laurie, what was your…can I ask you the same questions that I asked…Yeah, it’s back on now.

RL: [whispers] Now Polly’s got you, cop.

LW: Go on then Polly, you say what you want to ask me.

I want to ask you basically the same questions that I asked Richard, about your more kind of…what the campaign meant to you, so I guess I do want to know…you said that you were also born in Clapton…

I was born…most of the people of our age group were born in the Mother’s Hospital, I always call it Hackney, but there you are, Clapton, it’s now been converted into flats and things, and I went round there some years ago and I said – somebody looked out of the window and I said ‘don’t worry, we’re not casing your house to rob it’, said ‘I was born here and I just come here with my brother, he was born here as well’ And he said ‘oh, we have people all the time, coming here to look at the place where they were born’. I got involved because the road was – well, is now – but was… build up in the air by the side of my house, the side of my road, Westdown Road, and I thought it was atrocious that they’d build in this day and age, or that day and age, an open motorway, up in the air, by the side of a heavily populated area. I thought it was absolutely crazy. And I thought to myself, what can I do, I’m only an ordinary person, and that of course was part of the problem, that the area, Leyton and Leytonstone area, at that time, was occupied by just mainly artisans, and just ordinary artisans that had only gone to ordinary schools, and left school and got on to ordinary jobs, so you didn’t have lots of middle class and upper class people living there that could fight the system, because they knew the system, we were at a disadvantage, and I realised that, and I thought Well what can I do? Or should I do anything? And I thought to myself, I thought to myself, I’m going to lay in my bed and the road will be built and I will always say to myself, If I tried I might have made a difference. Now as it happened, I spent a hell of a lot of time on it because I became redundant from work, my firm was closed my Mrs Thatcher, and my father cracked up, so I was a carer and Richard had the same trouble, it’s very dangerous being a carer and opposing the system, because if they like to twist was you were doing and put you in prison, of course your father or mother became, erm, the state took over and you might never get them back, so you had to do a fine line, which I did. I went up and down the link road practically every day, the whole length of it giving support, passing on news giving them a bit of food, the people that were living there, all sorts of things, but I never did any direct action, and what I used to do was, when there was direct action, which was regularly, I had a professional mic- not microphone, horn…

RL: Mega-phone

LW: Mega-phone, that’s it. And I used to explain to people that were in the area what people were doing. So erm, they had my name, because when I went on a demo once, in fancy dress, a senior police officer, you know, with lots of pips on his shoulder, came over and said ‘Oh, hello Mr Wortley’ And I thought Well how the hell did he know my name, when I’ve got fancy dress on, covering half my face? It was a trunk of an elephant, you know, it was just fancy dress, so they knew what they were doing. Erm, you were saying… anyhow, back to what I was on… I put an awful lot of time and effort into it. And as told you, we won the argument but lost the battle. But, when I roll over in bed now, though my father obviously got polluted, and he died young from the pollution from the M11 Link Road… well, not young, but he died earlier than he should have, from the M11 Link Road, I know that I did everything possible to make it better for my family and the local residents who I’d lived with all my life, because I’m a third generation of a Leyton family, and like Richard, we’ve stayed in the house. As one part of the family die, the next part of the family take it on, which applies with me. My granddad had my house, then my uncle had the house, then my brother had the house, then I live in the house.

And you’re there now?

LW: I’m there now, yeah.

And what road did you say it was on?

LW: Westdown Road.

Where’s Westdown Road?

LW: It right by… can you place er… Leyton underground station?

Yeah

LW: Have you been there? Right, there’s only one now official exit. That was something we lost, we lost an exit. Which was very bad, and that’s one of the things we could have argued more about, but if we argued about the things that they would give us, when the road was built, you’re accepting the road.

RL: That’s right.

LW: So we decided we would never do anything like that. And also, you’re using effort, you’re going and having discussions, and writing diagrams, you put your effort in stopping the road. That was… and people have criticised… some of the things could have been done better, maybe they would have done the, er, somehow done another exit permanently, in those days when they built the road on the other end of the station, they’re now beginning to do it, because of the pressure of people going in by public transport. But going back, I know that I lay in my bed, and if I… I don’t think about it now, because it’s there and I can’t do anything much about it now, but I know that I did my best to oppose it for the betterment of everybody, including myself. Including myself. But everybody that lived along it, and that’s why I fought it.

RL: You did a good job Laurence.

LW: Well you know, we devoted our life to it for a number of years.

So it was a major, major part of your lives.

LW: Oh, it was a big thing. This is the trouble. People, you see, times have moved on, it’s a long time ago now, but it was really big. I mean very big. That’s the sort of thing it was like [looking at archival material from the bag]

Yeah, they’re lovely, aren’t they?

LW: This was the chap I told you, Councillor Hugh Morgan Thomas, he was a very good man, he got the borough to oppose it properly.

RL: He started out the environment…he went all the way to Europe, didn’t he? Remember that?

LW: Oh yeah, he went to Europe for us.

And he was a Labour Councillor was he?

LW: Yeah, he was a Labour Councillor, he became the leader of the party and the leader of the council, because Labour got, Labour was in.

RL: The council took it through an Environmental Impact Assessment, which the government was legally obliged to do, which it didn’t do. And that was it. Was it Lucy Bagley that went with him? They went all the way to Luxembourg.

LW: [looking through archival material] these are all things about it… we had our own magazine, or paper, The Road Breaker. If there’s two of something you can take it.

Thank you so much. Oh, that’s excellent.

LW: And you can see, that’s the sign, I thought it was a brilliant sign.

Yeah, it’s a very good sign. So, for the sake of the tape, this is a poster, it’s like a photocopied poster that says ‘Public Enquiry, No Secret Filming’, and then there’s a logo at the bottom, with a lorry driving through a house.

RL: That’s the M11 logo.

That was your logo for the whole campaign?

Both: Yeah, yeah.

I haven’t seen that before.

LW: What the logo? Oh you must! Look, see

Oh, right, there it is. Oh, I have seen it. I haven’t noticed it, obviously.

LW: This is the point see, time goes on and people forget.

RL: Homes not Roads.

LW: Mrs Thatcher wasn’t too keen on history being taught at school, because if you forget your history, it repeats itself, and that’s why it’s so important. What you’re doing and hopefully, you might be able to get it publicised widely, so that people know, if you don’t know your history it repeats itself. We don’t want to see what happened to us to happen to the next generation. Have a look through that stuff and see what you… if there’s anything twice you can have it, and if it’s only once, show me what you would like, okay.

Okay, thank you. I’m going to look at that in a minute, because the recorder’s still going and I’m conscious of it making lots of rustling sounds. Erm… so I want to ask you more questions.

RL: Fire away!

So after you left you went and stayed with your friends next door, and you went and stayed with your brother for a year, is that right?

RL: Yeah, that’s it.

And then you got….

RL: By that time… I mean it took ‘em 18 months for them to pay me any money. Cos they were determined to break me, but erm, it took ‘em 18 months for them to pay me money, and by the time that come, the money come through, and erm, I bought myself a house in Ilford, because mum wanted to be near to Robert, who lived in Ilford.

Robert’s your brother?

RL: Yeah, my older brother. And no sooner had we moved into the house, we moved into the house in June, 1995 I think it was, and in the October she died, pretty soon afterwards. Every time she… well for me as well… every time you heard a bang it all came back, the smashing down of the door, it was like you know, post-traumatic stress or whatever it is. Whereas I got over it, it took me about 18 months to get over it, mum couldn’t get over it, she just couldn’t understand. And the more she dwelt on it, the more she couldn’t understand how they’d taken everything away. You know? Because the house wasn’t a house, and she used to say to me, which I suppose is possibly true, as a man you don’t understand, but that house, Robert had been born in that house, and that house had been her house where her and dad had first made their little nest, so they got married, moved into there… my mum had known my dad since she was about 8. She got married when she was 22, ‘praps a bit earlier, and er, they lived in the house all their life, you see, so the house was full of memories.

Where did they live…

RL: In Colville Road

…Before they got their house, were they…?

RL: Mum lived in er… you’ll edit this out cos it’s total rubbish, but the central line was the border between the ‘Prots and the Catholics. And my mum come from a Catholic family. My dad come from a Protestant family. Okay? How do you resolve the problem? You have a brick fight. So the Caths used to go up the top of the er, hill, the Prots’d come up the other, an’ they’d throw bricks at one another. As you do. Seemed sensible. And my uncle, Richard, who I’m named after, he, erm, threw a brick, and hit my dad on the head. See. And all of a sudden, my mum, rushed from behind – ‘cos obviously the boys were at the front, the girls were at the back as ammunition carriers – my mum rushed across the border, grabbed hold of dad, and said ‘are you alright, mate?’, my dad said ‘you’re supposed to be on that side’, not realising of course, that that was the secret, if you know what I mean. And my uncle Richard come over and he said ‘why are you looking after him?’, so my mum said ‘you shouldn’t have thrown a brick at him’, so Uncle Richard said, ‘oh, sorry mate!’ and they were only kids at the time, and my dad said, ‘that’s alright mate’, and that was the end of it. They were friends ever since.

Really?

RL: And it was only years later, that my dad, he wasn’t very well, he took a long time to go, he said to me, ‘I hadn’t sussed out that that meant something’. And my mum said to me, ‘course what he should of realised was, I was in love with him’.

When she was how old?

RL: She was 8. And of course, the old boy… and when she was telling me, I tried to explain to mum, ‘yeah, but mum, I don’t think a bloke at 8 would have realised that. You might of understood…’ My mum was a year younger than my dad, but you know, she was 7 and he was 8. And Uncle Richard was a bit older, and as I say, bounced a brick off his head. But he hadn’t understood that my dad, and they’d been married 40 off years and he said, ‘I still don’t understand it’, and my mum just said ‘ah, don’t worry pop’, you know, ‘okay, don’t worry’.

[all laugh]

LW: Have we covered everything that you want to know about?

RL: I don’t know about you Laurie, but I’m happy to sit here.

LW: Yeah, I’ve got to go somewhere, but that’s alright, this comes first. Have we covered everything you want to be covered? You ask the questions.

I think we’ve covered all the kind of history, I mean, I could go on asking you questions about your lives, because what I want, because it’s an oral history interview, I want a bit of a bigger picture about the context of your lives and how it fits in.

LW: Well ask!

Well I mean, I am. I was just asking about….

LW: Oh, sorry.

RL: I’ll have a rest.

LW: I’ll have a biscuit.

[Some biscuit chatter and small talk not transcribed]

So Richard was just telling me about how his parents met…it’s funny interviewing two people at once, it’s difficult to know who to talk to.

RL: He’s the educated one.

So you said your firm was closed down. What were you…?

LW: I worked in Themes Television. Do you know the history of all that, cos you’re in the media really aren’t you? At a stretch…

At a stretch

LW: Well in those days, going back Themes Television was the dominant independent TV station, and the dominant one in London, and of course, in news, the job of the press and the media is to criticise the establishment, on that side, the political side, and of course they criticised Mrs Thatcher, er, this is my opinion, by the way. Well in the old days it was okay because the opposition was very pleased about that, but the government wasn’t too happy, but then they changed fairly regularly, but now a days, and those days, they didn’t, Mrs Thatcher was in for a number of years as you know, and she got fed up with it, and we did Death on The Rocks, out at Gibraltar, and our – I won’t go into it – but our idea of what happened was the opposite to Mrs Thatcher and she had a private enquiry on it and our company was right and she was wrong, this is all personal opinions, when the business of altering the television franchise happened – I won’t go into it, it’s all a bit technical, but if you want to know one day I’ll tell you – we lost. ‘Tis funny isn’t it, that… to my mind it was all done very cleverly, how the power can do things, and it looks legal when- well, to a certain extent it is legal, but fiddled it so that we lost, and so I became unemployed… I don’t know what you want to know.

I’m pausing while I think of the next question… so when was that that you became unemployed?

LW: I can’t remember, it was years ago now.

Just in terms of the…

LW: It was at the time when the M11 Link Road was being built, well it had started, sort of thing, and also, I’d become a carer for my father because he’d become too old to look after himself, so… that’s why I had to play things very carefully not to do anything that they could catch me out, because I wouldn’t be able to care for my father.

Mm Hm. And where was your mother?

LW: Mother had passed on. Years before, yeah.

So you were living just you and your father?

LW: Just me and my father, yeah. Looking after him. I mean he was capable at the beginning, when all this was on he was alright, but going out, doing shopping and cooking and all that sort of stuff would have been difficult for him.

He needed your help for that. And Richard was saying that his father was involved in objecting to the road right at the beginning in the 50s, do you know if your father had any involvement?

LW: No, no. They weren’t involved then, no. They weren’t involved then, no.

RL: To be honest, it wouldn’t have… where Laurie lives…

LW: It probably wasn’t known.

RL: Well even if it was known I think they’d have said you know, it’s nowhere near, cos at one time they weren’t thinking of going down Colville Road, they were going to go down Grove Green Road, that was the idea of it, to go straight down – you know, go Ruckholt Road, down Grove Green Road, Fillebrook, into it that way. And then the government had the idea of creating what they call transport links, so you had the railway there, so we’ll put the road next to the railway.

Right.

RL: And that was the idea of it. Y’know.

And you were telling me about…with your professional…what did we call it…. Mega-phone… was that through your work in TV?

LW: No, no, no, it was nothing to do with a company. I erm, I had this professional mega-phone and I used to go to all the action things with it and stand on the pavement and explain why it was happening, what was happening, and why.

So you’d almost be giving a commentary to the people… can you remember any of the actions that you went on?

LW: That’s right, yeah, well of course there was all the knocking down of the houses, as they…they didn’t knock every house down together, but they knocked down some very won… funnily enough, some of the houses were absolutely fantastic. You know, they were architecturally interesting, you know, you had the arries(?), they were always workers’ houses, if I can put it like that, artisans, there were houses, particularly in Leytonstone and Wanstead, where erm, sort of going back at the beginning of railways etc. very rich people lived, because it was within range of the city for going in on a horse and carriage and a lot of these old houses actually had room for the stables, there was gaps and room for stables. And they were beautiful houses. I went into one at Wanstead, it was unbelievable. You went in and there was a balcony all the way round inside.

Were these on Cambridge Park Road? Those ones?

RL: Cambridge Park Road, and Fillebrook Road, because as Laurie says, if you look at the history of the area, in about 1850, when the railway come, there was about one man and a dog and a pub. And that was Leyton, but by the time 1900 had come, the rich merchants were on their way out, but when you look at the fact of Leyton, the number of people living in Leyton went from sort of like two men and his dog, to like thousands because like the rich merchants…when you look at Fillebrook Road and things like that, these were the rich merchant houses, they’d been allowed to go to a bit of disrepair, because the government had brought a lot of them up, they’d been buying them up since the 60s, actually since the 50s, but you could have made them very nice houses.

LW: Oh they were wonderful houses, they were beautiful, they were class houses, they were rich people’s houses. They were lovely.

Do carry on…I’m just…

LW: Oh, as I was saying, when those, and ordinary workers’ type houses, which I live in, erm I used to be there with my mega-phone, and erm, explaining - course, crowds used to come to see houses knocked down and you know, register their vote by boos and things, and tears, and of course I used to explain what was happening, and asking the people that were doing it, not to do it, because I remember walking in front of a gang of yellow bellies that were going up Grove green Road, and I was walking in front of them with my megaphone saying ‘you don’t have to do this!’ but of course, they were being employed, so if they didn’t do it, they wouldn’t get any money.

RL: And a useful thing also what Laurie was saying is that you could use that megaphone when we went on demos to er Department of Transport, which was near Westminster.

LW: Oh yeah, we used to go up there.

RL: You go there and of course all people’ll see, there’d be about 20 or 30 people all outside the front door…

LW: Doing the demo

RL: Doing the demo, and then you’d get the megaphone and you’d say to the people in the offices, this is the reason we’re doing it. And occasionally people’d come to the back door of the things and go, ‘oh, we didn’t know that’, and a couple of times they’d been…we acquired people in the offices that would say to the leaders, for want of a better word, ‘oh, do you want to know this, do you want to know that?’ And people’d be stuck in and people’s go take photocopies and stuff like that of all these documents that the government was telling the department of Transport what to do, and just how vicious to be. There was a lot of senior people in the department of transport sending notes up to – these were letters, before the days of email – sending notes up to Thatcher and the Secretary of state, which often changed from Transport, saying you know, We’re not happy with this, we don’t think it’s legal, we’re not happy with it. They were just told, Got on with it, man up, you know, otherwise you’re out of a job, and people were taking photographs of all these and photocopies and stuff, so there was an awful lot of people in government that were not very happy about what things were doing.

LW: And mobile phones were in their infancy.

RL: Yeah, you had the brick.

LW: Mobile phones were in their infancy, and if it happened today, which it won’t at the moment, erm, it would have been totally different with all gizmos of the computer age, cos there wasn’t computers.

RL: No… you could have got crown source or something like that. But even if it happened today, I honestly, p’rahaps not, but I honestly think that the actual spitefulness of government hasn’t changed, you see at the moment with all the cuts and stuff like that, the spitefulness of government hasn’t changed. The actual, fundamental, p’rahaps the tory pary, but the actual fundamental thinking of the government is, ‘you’re just not worth it, you’re insignificant, you don’t matter, so we can cut benefits, we can force people out of jobs’. I remember what Laurie was saying about that Death on the Rock. I remember watching it on the TV, the IRA was sent to assassinate someone weren’t they? And the special…

LW: No, not the IRA… no. The IRA… oh yeah, that’s right, the IRA were out there and the SAS went out there and killed em

RL: Caught them at a petrol station, and just gunned them down

LW: That’s right.

RL: I mean, that’s what the SAS was told to do. Same with like, the Iranian thing. Those blokes in the Iranian Embassy said ‘we surrender’ and they filled them up with 35 bullets. That’s the way the system operates. But that system was turned against us on the M11. We had the same sort of viciousness and , as Ros says, we were somewhat naive, we thought well the law…

LW: We were naïve, I was naïve.

RL: Then you suddenly realised the law’s not going to do anything about it.

LW: I was naïve.

RL: And that’s where a lot of the activists, a lot of the activists, as Ros was saying about the legacy, they went on to... do you remember… I’ve forgotten his name now, but Transport 2000, we had John Stuart from Transport 2000

LW: John Stuart is a very fine man. He’s a committed environmentalist, and at the moment he’s very active in not having a third run-way at Heathrow, and he is a wonderful man. I really appreciate him, he’s put him life into the environmental side of the London area mainly, he does do other things as well, but he’s very active on that

RL: And you had Roger Geffin didn’t you? Do you remember Roger Geffin? And there was another bloke, Stephen Joseph, Transport 2000.

What was Transport 2000?

RL: Transport 2000 was an umbrella group that was set up basically I think, after the road campaigns, to campaign for better transport, but not road transport, but just better transport.

Rails…?

RL: Rail…cos a lot of people that were in favour of us were saying ‘well obviously you’ve got to have roads, you can’t have a non-road, non-car environment, but they also understood that when you look at places like London, the street system’s medieval, now you can’t push 20^th Century traffic volumes into a medieval city, and that was proved in the Victorian times with horse and cart. The same thing where I come from now. They’re doing a bit of work on the A406, and the busses are delayed an hour. You got cars 20 miles back, it’s just not going to happen. A car based -society will just not… and what I said before, instead of giving people power, it’s enslaved then, because where I come from, you’ve got people with 4 cars, and they say, ‘it proves my status’, no it don’t, because every so often the lease holder comes, takes a car back because they’ve not been paying the rent on it.

LW: Well, that’s different.

RL: ‘Oh, don’t worry about that, I’ll get another one’. It’s… ‘I’ve got to project myself, I’ve got so many cars’, and if you don’t own a car, I don’t own a car, Laurie don’t own a car, if you don’t own a car, people think ‘you’re nuts’

LW: Well Richard used to own a car, and he can also drive, which I can’t.

RL: I haven’t driven in 12 years.

LW: Have you renewed your licence, though?

RL: It don’t run out till I’m 70.

LW: Oh, right.

RL: I’m not going to renew it, cos I’m never going to drive again.

LW: You never know Richard, for the amount of money you’ve got to invest on that, it’s worth doing, just in case, you know.

RL: I might drive if I win the lottery or something.

LW: No, no, no, but you might need it for something …other people or something.

RL: People’ll think this is silly, but the only time I would love to drive, is a tank, down to Parliament, do a couple of rounds through Parliament.

[all laugh]

RL: People say that I’m extreme! I’m not extreme. Sounds simple to me.

LW: He’s just being silly. Anything else you want from us?

Um, MacGregor, the action that took place at the Department for Transport’s home, that was a banner drop, yeah? Is that right?

RL: Banner drop from the roof, yeah

LW: And also, we, I think we had more than one demo there, didn’t we?

RL: We went to see… who was that bloke that come after MacGregor?

LW: Oh, we went round to one of the Transport Minister’s houses! Oh no, we did it twice!

RL: We did it twice.

LW: One in London, and one in Cornwall or somewhere.

RL: No, no, well, that was …Colin went there. I went with Colin to the planning inspector. He wasn’t very happy when we turned up on his doorstep.

LW: That was down at Devon or Cornwall, wasn’t it?

RL: Yeah, Devon or Cornwall.

LW: And we went to the minister of transport in London. And did a demo outside his house.

RL: Who was the bloke that come after MacGregor? The bloke that had about 6 or 7 mistresses…

LW: No, it wasn’t his house, it was the one before him.

RL: Well we went to the one that had 6 or 7 … oh I know the one, the bloke that had the, erm, the wife… he had a house somewhere

LW: Somewhere in North London, wasn’t it?

RL: He had a house in Epping, and another house just across the road in Epping, and we turned up in one of them, it was like a farm, converted into a house, we turned up and the farm people made it clear we weren’t happy, so we’d been told, given these addresses by people in the department of transport, spies, shall we say, and we turned up there and he was well embarrassed, you know. Pretty little thing there, and we said, ‘oh are you the current one, love?’ And she says, ‘I don’t know what you’re talking about. I’m just helping him, I’m just his secretary’, yeah, yeah… I know this is sexist, but I said ‘yeah, you’re pretty, you’re quite nice, you might last a couple of weeks, then you’ll be out and the next one’ll be in. It’s like revolving doors’. Poor little thing was saying ‘oh, I don’t think it’s like that!’, and he was getting more and more annoyed. And then a couple of blokes come along from the farm and politely told us to go, then it was about a week or so after that, we went to a place, I’m sure it was Harlow, or Essex, and he was there with his wife, and he opened the door, we said ‘we saw your other one, saw your fancy piece’, then she come down and she was a proper lady, a proper, like, aristocratic lady, she was a lovely lady, she said ‘I know, we all have a cross to bear, d’you want to stay here, want cakes, want tea?’, oh, if we’re not annoying anybody, we’ll go home.

[all laugh]

LW: I think that should be…a lot of that should be…erase a lot of that. I hope you haven’t extended that with your imagination.

RL: No, it happened.

LW: Oh right. I wasn’t in on those. I went…

RL: No, I’ll tell you why Laurie, because in a lot of instances, a lot of people didn’t want to get involved because they had parents…

LW: That’s it. I went to one where they put…I’m trying to remember, it was somewhere in North London I think, and we put down a sort of artificial road up to this minister’s house. Were you in on that one?

RL: I wasn’t in on that one, no. That was the Archway people doing that.

LW: No, no, but it was for us. For our benefit.

RL: Yeah, but it was the Archway people

LW: They put down this sort of suggestion of a road knocking down this person’s house, and I can’t remember if it was a minister or…

RL: No, it was that erm…

LW: Was it the inspector?

RL: No, it was the head of the Department of Transport.

I’ve got, there are lots of photos of people on the top of, I thought it was the head of the Department of Transport’s house, and they dropped a very long road banner through the middle of the house as a kind of symbol of …

RL: I think that was…cos the head of the department, I’ve forgotten his name, the top bloke, the senior bloke, not the politician, but the senior civil servant, and he was extremely dismissive at first, but then towards the end of he said, look, you might be right, but …I have to do what my political masters tell me to do. And I think a lot of them at the end of the day suddenly realised, s’pecially when the cost went up and up and up and no one was questioning the cost.

LW: Well, this is serious. Nobody ever knows how much the M11 Link Road cost.

RL: That’s true.

LW: Nobody ever knows, there was an estimate. Of course obviously it was under estimated, but they sort of wangled bits of this that and the other, but you will never find the cost of the M11 Link Road.

RL: it ran into billions.

LW: The point is, of course, the government done it like they do, with Sellerfield (?), alter the name, um, it was called the M11 Link Road, it’s not called that now, it’s called the A12… what’s it called?

Just the A12.

RL: A 12 Relief Road or something

LW: Yeah, it’s not called the M11 Link Road anymore, and that’s the same that they did with Sellerfield, you know they alter the name when something is, if you keep mentioning the names it brings back unhappy times for the establishment, so they alter the name so it, you know, people forget, very clever.

RL: But if you talk to Colin Bex… Colin Bex was at both of those er, demos.

LW: Don’t know how to contact him. No idea.

RL: I think Doreen might know him, because someone told him about Katy’s funeral.

LW: That’s right, that’s right. He turned up.

RL: So someone must be able to contact. A lot of the activists turned up at Katy’s funeral.

LW: Of course nowadays they’ve got mobile phones so all you’ve got to do is just know their phone number and you can just drop them a word.

RL: Doreen Jenkins must know him

What kind of long term effect do you think it’s had on the community? The people that were involved?

RL: What in Colville?

Both: well they’re not there anymore.

No, I mean more the people that were… it’s just interesting. Okay, I’ll backtrack and tell you what made… I did an interview a whole ago and somebody told me that up until a few years ago, people were still gathering every single anniversary of the day that the tree on George Green –

Both: That’s it.

LW: That’s right, but that’s curtailed because , well, look at us. We’re not young anymore. I mean we used to go, and if it was pouring with rain, we’d still celebrate that night. But I mean, well, he and I, we couldn’t afford, while our parents were still alive, to go out in really adverse weather, cos if we were ill, we might pass it on to our elderly parents, or if we are ill, we’re not looking after our elderly parents. And of course, people get old and they can’t, and a lot of them moved on, well of course, of if your house is knocked down, you’ve definitely moved on.

RL: and a lot of people, you know, it’s… the tree’s no longer there. I mean the fact is that they took the tree away because the tree was…I mean I collected 3 nuts from the horse chestnut, it was a horse chestnut, three seeds, and I got Notcuts to grow them on, and they were grown. I went to the council and I said …the council said ‘no don’t plant them anywhere, they’ll be torn down’, I went to the city of London, I said to the city of London ‘can they be put somewhere?’, cos George Green is part of Epping Forest, ‘No,no no’, so eventually we come to an agreement where they’re put in a secret location, now those three chestnut trees still exist, they grow, they live. They’re a living embodiment of the M11, so when we’re all gone, when the Department of Transport’s a bit of mist, those trees will still be there.

Where…oh, you’re not going to tell me where they are, are you?

RL: No, it’s a secret location.

LW: He can’t tell you.

RL: That’s what it is. So they exist. And when someone …when the tree had been burned down, I don’t know if it was Maureen or someone else, there was a little spark of life, a little green thing, and someone said oh, it’ll die, cos obviously the tree was …and someone got someone to get in touch with someone from Kew and they come along and they put it out, put it in a little thing. That still survives, in a secret location. So the tree, people may think the tree has gone, the tree ain’t gone. The tree is out there.

And why does it have to be a secret location?

RL: Because people’ll come along and cut them down.

When you say people, who?

RL: People who were against the M11, they will do it, because you know, it’s like anything else, the government will say oh, we don’t want that brought back, because it was a lie to show people what they could do, if they got together. United we stand, divided we may fall. Well the government don’t like that, and that’s why it’s in a secret location, because who go there will cut that down. People can’t understand just how vicious the system was against people, fighting for their property, fighting for a community, and for all the nonsense that politicians speak about, ‘we want a synergy, we want a homogenous…er, we want a community’ it’s all complete garbage. They don’t want it. They want people to be against people, because then people don’t get together. Because if people get together, they suddenly realise, ah ha! You’ve got no clothes on Mr Emperor. And that’s what we were doing.

LW: We were more powerful than the establishment. What do you want to ask? Go on, you ask us a thing.

RL: Yeah, you ask the questions, cos we could drone on for years.

LW: Yeah, well he could anyway.

Laurie, if you need to go, that’s fine. Okay, I’ll stop this now.

LW: Yeah, have a look through that [the bag of archival material]. ..

RL: Sarah Wishart… she interviewed me last year about all this.

Was she from the Museum of London project?

RL: She might have been, something to do with Graham Miller’s…

Yeah, yeah. I listened to your interview that she did, a couple of weeks ago I went to the Museum of London and had a listen to your interview. It was great, really good.

RL: Oh god. We live on Laurie! In the ether.

One of you was just about to say something then…

LW: We were saying that there were very old buildings of architectural interest, and one of the buildings was the local sorting office, which was in Fillebrook Road, and that was a very interesting building, I think I might have just gone into the entrance once, but I never went into see how they sorted stuff, they refurbished it just before they knocked it down, I don’t know what went wrong there. They spent a lot of money refurbishing it, the post office did, and it was the post office in those days, and then along came the Ministry of Transport and knocked it down.

RL: Well, see now I’ve been inside that, very nice, but I remember when we went inside it, the guy that was there, he said ‘oh yeah, we have refurbished it, because we’ve been told the road won’t come through’.

LW: Oh, I didn’t know that!

RL: I’ve got an idea it might, mate! Not one hand knowing what the other hand was doing.

And was it refurbished as a sorting office?

RL: Oh yes! In fact it was upgraded, they were upgrading it to be more of a hub for sorting, you know. People… these were the messages being given out by different parts of the government.

LW: that might have been done purposefully now you look back on it.

RL: Oh, I’m sure it was. They were wasting public money hand over fist.

LW: The important thing is though, is to say that they never said how much the M11 Link Road cost. My closing speech, I think I’ve already said, is I hope a lot of people, young turks and not so young turks will acknowledge what’s happened here, the power of the state and etc. and as Mrs. Thatcher as I said already, didn’t believe in history, if you don’t know your history it’ll repeat again, now you’ve learned the history of this action, most of the people are passed on or dispersed etc. so obviously there’ll be similar challenges, when we went to national environmental conferences etc. you ,et people that had the same problems where they lived in Newcastle, Manchester and all sorts of places, and they knew about our problems, because we were well advertised because it was big it was in London, it was a huge, huge effort and we had plenty of press on it, but not all people have that, there can be small developments which are equally disadvantageous to the local people and we hope that maybe this will help, but you’ve got to stand up and be counted and never agree initially with what they say because they always have something in reserve as a little bribe, so if you create adverse publicity and say you’re not keen on what they’re doing, they’ll probably offer you some little perk. It might not be much, like double glazing, but it always pays not to agree the first time.

RL: Totally agree.

Do you have any last…is there anything that I haven’t asked that you wanted to talk about?

RL: No, we’ll probably have another conversation, but as Laurie says, you have the power to make things change. If you want change it’s down to you. As Laurie says, we die in the gutter and they step over us. It goes on, it’ll always go on.

Okay, I’ll pause this again now. Laurie, thank you so much…

LW: That’s okay.

[Tape is paused, and LW leaves. Interview continues with RL]

So just er…go back to…you said…well, just…

RL: ask the question.

I can’t remember exactly what my question was…

RL: Your question was something like ‘what was going to happen afterwards?’ The true story, you know… The true story’s never going to be told because certain promises were made by people to people that will be kept. I mean a lot of people helped us that are still in Parliament, still in the civil service. A lot of people helped us and those are confidential, it’s as simple as that.

So I did want to ask about… because I hear a lot of people talking about connections being made with the police, with security guards…

RL: Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Bailiffs. So without naming any names, I just wondered if you could talk a little bit about…

RL: Well a lot of that was done. I mean Jacky Cottent (? – inaudible), whose dead now said the same, her husband was a world renowned sculptor, but Jacky lived in York Road, by Leyton tube station and she had the ability to talk to anybody and get people to agree with her, so she’d go and talk to the security guards, talk to the police. A lot of the police, the met police were horrified at what they were seeing. Not what they joined up, not what they went to Hendon for. So there was an awful lot of people horrified. A lot of the security guards were horrified, a lot of the civil servants were horrified, a lot of the politicians were horrified. A lot of people just couldn’t believe what they were seeing. And the general image that a lot of the politicians were trying to put out was here was a rough bunch of, er, ner-do-wells, druggies, all this sort of stuff, you know, sleeping rough. Lock em up, put em in the army. They weren’t. They were very intelligent people. A lot of the women there were very, very intelligent, they’d been to women’s colleges, women’s universities, extraordinarily… and the great leaders, in my opinion, were the girls, the women. You had Rebecca, you had Emma, you had some of the others, great leaders, because they had that sensible thing of saying okay, this needs to be done, and Jacky always used to go around and say ‘oh, you can smell the testosterone’ and that, cos all the – ‘yeah, I’ll go up that tree’, and all that, and often you’d say ‘well, I wouldn’t actually go up that tree, might not be sensible’. I think it was a very female oriented, orientated, command structure, which showed a lot of the young girls just what they could achieve, cos we’re going back to the early 90s where there wasn’t all this sort of thing about, y’know, that, and it showed a great deal what you could empower people to do. And it did do an awful lot of joined up thinking with an awful lot of people. There were connections. There was a lot of very intelligent lawyers coming in. A lot of people who were one minute talking to us, the next minute you’d see them on the telly at Davros[?] or something.

LW [briefly returned]: Also there were scientists.

RL: Yeah, there were scientists.

LW: ‘Bout the quality of the land.

RL: All very clever people, they could see a genuine, people based movement. And as I say, the artistic input was unbelievable, and people were exhibiting at Whitechapel Gallery, at other things, under railway arches and stuff like that. Really good quality artistic stuff. I think some of the artists have gone on to be world renowned, people know them, and they command high prices.

LW: Some of the things you want to know about what’s on now, and what’s happening in the area, well, first of all, we completely lost an exit and entrance to Leyton underground station and we’re still fighting to get one re-instated on the south side of the station. Another thing locally that we’re very active in is the hall farm curve, trying to get so that railway trains can go from Stratford to Chingford, via Walthamstow Central, and there’s a short curve called the hall farm curve, should have been built for the Olympics, now the excuse is that they’ve got to build an extra platform at Stratford to cope with it, but we’ll keep the pressure on that one. And one of the things that I think everybody in this area is under estimating, like at the beginning of the M11 Link Road they didn’t think it was coming, Heathrow, with the development of the third runway, the extra capacity will be 220,000 flights a day, and they don’t have to say flight corridor until they’ve build the runway, so it could be coming over you. I bet it’s going to come over this area, 220,000 extra flights a year, I mean it is a very serious environmental point, plus of course you have the danger of the moor planes there are up in the sky, the more likely there is of one having an accident, and of course, if you have it at Heathrow, whether you have it at all is a question, but if you have it at Heathrow, if there was an accident anywhere near the airport, you’ve got maximum population around London as everybody knows. What is it, one in five lives in London, or something like that, in the UK? So um, the battles go on, even on the same area, as I said. But um, hall farm curve, which I think all of it is in our borough, the flight paths, over the top, and we’re still trying to get a second entrance to our eastbound Leyton underground station re-instated, and none of us can remember how long ago the M11 Link Road started, so…

RL: It’s the 20^th Anniversary of it being finished. It went on for …I think about 1989 or something like that it started, I think it went on for years.

LW: So we’re looking for the next generation of young turks and old turks who’ve got the energy, and got the time. But you must make time. If there’s a petition comes by, or a meeting locally, don’t sit in doors and say ‘oh well, you know, Joe Smith down the road’ll go’, or ‘I don’t know much about this, there’s no point in me going’. Just go because one thing it shows support to the activists, cos if they get a lot of people turn out at a meeting they realise that people are interested and that encourages the people that have got the knowledge and enthusiasm and energy to do something on your behalf, on all our behalfs, to continue, and of course petitions have limited consequences, but again it shows the amount of people with interest, so you know, fill in these things and do what you can.

RL: Which I agree with, and as I point out to my council, America On Line, AOL, and that to me is anonymous, off-set, and [louset? – inaudible], because that’s what they are, the youngers of today, they’re tech-savvy, they crowd source, they do this, so you’ve got anonymous, off-set, [louset?], all these people, and that’s it. They’re the politics now. So the crusty old souls sitting up and saying oh, get a petition, which they ignore, you know, do a deputation to the council, which they ignore, I mean we done all this and I think we’re talking about a thing down my way, council said of we don’t bother about petitions. You know, no matter how many people sign a petition, we only count it as one petition.

LW: Yeah, that’s true.

RL: Then have a deputation in the council so everybody duly sits there in front of the council, they asked em questions like school master. Ignore you. You know, it’s as simple as that.

LW: Yeah, but it still brings pressure. They do realise…I mean sooner or later, everybody, the establishment generally they have to be voted in, and voted out.

RL: This is where it comes to it, because then they say okay, we went around, got all the residents to argue that they didn’t want what the council was up to, the council said should we worry? I said, well every one of them is at least one vote. When the greens got more votes than the council thought they was going to get, oh dear me.

LW: this is at Waltham Forest, by the way.

RL: It’s not Waltham Forest, its Redbridge. Got all wibbly wobbly, change their tune a little bit, they’re listening to the residents. People have got to understand, that’s the power they’ve got. If you just sit around and say nothing to do with me gov’ they’ll walk all over you. Get together, talk to your neighbours, have a community spirit, and once you talk to your neighbours you find out they’re pretty much the same as you. They might be Mrs. Khan, or they might be Mr Kawasaki [sp?] …all the same

LW: Doesn’t make any difference.

RL: Get together, talk and empower yourself.

And so now, what do you think the legacy of that communal spirit is, today? Does it still exist? Is there still a sense that you achieved… that you worked together for something?

RL: The government’s doing its best to destroy it.

But I mean, in the local area if there still a sense …

LW: I think there is. There’s local groups cos, you see the people that are activists now are younger than us, obviously, and they’ve got fresh things to fight for. I mean there’s a group called The New Lamas Land Defence Committee, that opposes building along the old Lamas Land, which is the green belt, roughly, along the River Lea. There’s lots of… there’s two historic societies… well, there’s more than two, but there’s one in Walthamstow and one in Leyton, Historic Societies that are very active that try to stop buildings of historical, buildings of architectural interest being knocked down. And some of those people in those societies are ex-M11 Link Road folk. Or activists. Or people that opposed the M11 Link Road. But of course you can’t fight the M11 Link Road, it’s there now, whether they’ll… I think they’ll have to cover some of it anyhow, because of the pollution business. I think some of it’ll have to be covered. But I suppose until people drop dead and children have…and women have deformed babies etc. It’ll happen then, you know, like it did with the great fog and smog, didn’t it. They had fogs and smogs maybe for years, I mean I’m talking about something I have little knowledge on, but they must have had fogs and smogs for years in London and thenb suddenly there was a real bad one where loads of people died and they did something. But the point in life really, as I said, is don’t forget your history cos it repeats itself. You should try to see it in advance to try and stop it, but that’s another story isn’t it.

[Tape stops. LW leaves again]

Okay, we’re recording. So I think this is going to be our last instalment, this is 4 of 4 instalments. Urm, I haven’t got a particular question that I want to ask…I probably have got lots of questions that I want to ask you, but it’s been quite a disjointed interview, so where did we get to? Is there anything that I haven’t asked that you feel we should touch on particularly?

RL: No, not really. As I say, there are a lot of people that are, a lot of people you should be talking to, like Rebecca Lush, Emma Must, John Stewart, Colin Bex is always useful although he’s a bit … erm, Stephen Leicester, I think he’s from Transport 2000. There’s Roger Geffin if you can find him, and as I say I gave Ros Doreen’s email address, now Doreen knows the lady in Wanstead that was the school…

Lollypop lady

RL: Yeah. She got the sack for sticking up for the M11. Now there’s people like Pasty and Sue and that, and all that sorts. You see them around. There’s Green Dave, I don’t know what happened to John the Axe, there’s Pookie, she died

That’s the young girl that got her arm broken?

RL: Yeah, she died of a drug overdose [N.B. everywhere else Pookie appears to be a man – From what I can surmise, Richard is confusing ‘Pookie’ with a young girl called Fi, who had her arm broken by the police and later died of a drug overdose]. There was Bongo. If you can get in touch with Bongo, Bongo knows all the activists, so if you can get in touch with Bongo, and the last I heard of Bongo, she was a care assistant somewhere. There’s um, I can’t remember her name right now…a lady called Morley, I think her name was, I can’t remember her first name now, Maureen knows her and she knew, she’s not been very well, she knew all the activists as well. If you go up to the Walnut Tree, up at Leytonstone, but MacDonald’s, there’s a lot of the old crowd in there.

Activists?

RL: Yeah, there’s a lot in there, still in there. But they’ll all do it, if you know the location of the Witches Brew at Greenman, put your hand in there, just ask everybody to come, and they’ll come. I’m not too sure about that one though, myself.

What’s that?

RL: There’s supposed to be this thing at the…there was some Wicca who had these three wooden healing paddles, and they were hidden at the Greenman, so should the day ever come, we will be there. Throat keeps going. I do get really emotional about this, I must admit. I shouldn’t, but I do, it’s um, too many people have gone and they shouldn’t have gone, you know? They went quickly and they shouldn’t have gone. But there was a lot of, obviously, people there on the edge that could have been looked after, but the government didn’t give a toot about them, so you feel sorry for them, you know. We were one big family, linked by blood, it’s as simple as that. That’s why I say you want to get in touch with Rebecca and Emma. It’s as simple as that. It was something which you had to be there to live through it. I don’t think you could ever covey it to people. Perhaps a hint of it, but you had to be there to do it. Perhaps I should say finally, if there’s a road protest near you, join it! You’ll have fun. It’s as simple as that. But erm, that’s it, you know. I mean my dad always used to say a funny little thing, and I might choke up a bit on it, cos I nearly always do, but years ago when they were blitzing , he was standing at the top of the hill by Leyton tube station and you could see the whole of London was on fire, everything was on fire. You could smell the burning people, you could smell everything, the heat was terrible, and er, these two fire engines come past, one had come from Blackpool, and one had come from Glasgow, so the bloke says to my dad, ‘which way’s London, mate?’ My dad pointed to the whole of London on fire, this was the big blitz, and erm, the bloke just says ‘jeez.’ He says ‘we’re finished’, and the old boy said – I do get cracked up at this – the old boy said ‘no. They can bomb us, but they won’t brake our spirit’, and I’ve always remembered that from my old dad, god bless him, ‘you can bomb us, you can throw us out of our houses, but you won’t brake our spirit’. Sorry about that, but that’s all it is, it does make me tearful, because as I say, all them good people that went, they’re all dead and that. We had a community there which was destroyed by our own people, the enemy within, they were destroyed by our own people and people like my mum that had faith in the system believed that a sacred covenant was destroyed at that time. We thought the elite would always look after us, the elite just spat on us and treated us like filth. That shouldn’t have happened. Never forget that. Never ever forget that we were treated like that. My old dad was right. You can never break our spirit [laughs]. You’ll have to delete this.

I won’t. I won’t.

RL: Cos, it is a bit silly for a grown man to cry, but that’s how I feel about it. You will never break us, you’ll never break the M11 spirit, alright, so there’s a road there, so what, ain’t broke us, there’s still the trees, symbols of the M11. There’s still people out there, symbols of the M11. There was a community spirit. Yeah, they scattered us to the 7 winds, it won’t break us. We learned so much on that M11. There’s different people, people that believed in ley-lines people from Wicca, the dongas, the dragons, all these tribes.

What are these dongas and dragons?

RL: They’re tribes, dongas were a tribe. They went back…you know tribes, going back to the real old days, before there was like, all these politics and that so you had tribal gatherings, dongas were one tribe, dragons were another tribe, there was other tribes, and you had that tribal spirit, the tribal belief of nature, you know, nature is our spirit. Whether you want to believe in a god, or whatever, that doesn’t matter. There’s a tribal spirit, a nature spirit, and that nature spirit looks after us, now we treat that spirit with contempt, the majority of people, because I think it was Chief Seattle said to the Americans once, ‘well you built on all the land, what you going to eat?’, and that’s it, you can build roads, you can build houses, build airports, what you going to eat? What you going to eat? What you going to breathe? Where are the kids going to play? When I was a kid, you could go and play in the parks, kick a ball about, no you can’t, too many cars, so you’re just, you’re not empowering people, you’re enslaving people and that’s what happened, you know, they thought, Churchill and the others thought the Blitz’d brake the East end. It could never brake us, you can’t brake our spirit. Simple as that. It’s impossible. You could kill me, but what does that matter? I’m just one bloke, of no importance what-so-ever. Like we said, you step over our body and you go on. We throw you the batton, and the others now, like the activists again, ‘fair enough mate, yeah, I’ll catch it’. Never brake the spirit. That’s what community’s all about, that’s what the government and other people are scared witless about. They don’t want the community. They don’t want us to talk to the Muslims or the Poles or the Africans, or anybody. They must be the enemy. They don’t want us to talk to us because then we realise, ‘yeah, okay, just the same as us’, and all that sort of stuff. ‘Yeah, great, you got a kid, yeah, you want to potter about? Yeah, you got old folk, yeah’, what are they doing now? They’re treating the old folk like dirt, they’re breaking up the NHS, the old folk are being abused, oh, have zero contracts, live on dirt poor pay. The rich are not doing it, the rich are richer. They fear the mob. They call us the mob. We’re not the mob, we are the people. This is our land and we’re going to keep it. End of story. Sorry about that [crying and laughing] that will have to be edited out because it’s silly for a grown man to cry. But that’s it. I’ve only ever cried three times in my life, but when I talk about the M11 I have a little grizzle. So that’s it, you know, that’s how I feel. You know, my whole family come from Leyton, going back yonks, years, going back into the 1800s we come from Leyton, that was our birth place, I would love to have lived in the place, all my life, but I was prevented from doing that by a government which knew the road was not going to be profitable, but just some spiteful person somewhere said ‘I have the power’ well actually, you just proved to us you didn’t have the power. Power should be exercised gently, not harshly. You talk to someone in a gentle way, you don’t shout at them, you use your brain and your actual conversation to educate people you don’t come down with the TRG and burn people in their bivvy’s and smash people up and all that sort of stuff. Break little girls’ arms, kick people’s heads in, try and rape women. That don’t work, just makes us stronger. And that’s it. And Laurie might say I’ve glossed over a few things, I don’t think so. My memory may not be as good as his, who knows? You’ll have to double check everything, it’s what I can remember and I’ve got a pretty good memory, so that’s basically it, you know. Sorry about that.

Don’t be sorry. Shall I stop it?

RL: Well, whatever you want to talk about. Until you go I can just sit here.

Sit here and chat.

RL: It was a time…I hate to say it was fun, but it was a learning experience because it was real time you was in a conflict. We kept saying, it was battle experience.

Did you ever expect to get so involved? Did you know how involved you were going to be?

RL: I had a rough idea I would because I’d always been an activist, I’d always been interested in green things and the natural world and stuff like that, and a lot of my aunties and uncles were alive at the time.

So you were political before the…

RL: Oh yeah, oh yeah. For sure, for sure.

Can you tell me a little bit about that?

RL: Well I’ve always been a Labour supporter, I’ve always been…I won’t say left wing, but I’ve always you know, been, shall we say, left wing. And as I say, the family history is that one of my, if not my dad’s dad, his dad helped Kier Hardy, up at West Ham. Kier Hardy being the first Labour MP, and bearing in mind that William Morris, who was Arts and Crafts, he was a Walthamstow bloke, and he set up, like the other people, the embryonic Labour party, so it’s a thing that’s steeped in history. And my granddad on my mum’s side, he was a great Labour man as well, so we’ve got that family history, and so when this come along, it was so patently obvious that it was unfair, I could have just packed in and said ‘give me the money, I’m off’, but there was other people in the street that couldn’t, you know. There was elderly people and there were people that’d lived there all their lives, older than my mum was at the time, and my mum said ‘no, I don’t want to go. This is my house, why should I have to leave?’ Be different if it was a railway, mum always said to me if they wanted to build a railway, yeah, I’m all for it cos your dad’s for the railway. But dad had died by then, he’d been dead some years, so I was looking after my mum, so yeah, that was it, it was always going to be the case. And as soon as it got thing, it was a chaotic scene but then people come in and you suddenly realise, ok, you’re not going to be able to organise the whole thing, which would have been fatal because as the top civil servant said to us, the thing that made us strong was the fact that we didn’t have a unifying command system, so they couldn’t pick off the leaders and all that. It was in the chaos became order, and that’s another thing that the government didn’t want, it didn’t want the chaotic order that we had. And as I say, a lot of that was down to Mick Roberts, because he was the Sherriff, and you needed a strong sheriff and he installed order amongst the activists.

Is that what he was officially known as, The Sherriff?

RL: Yeah, yeah. Politely officially known as, yeah. But other than that he was something else. He saw himself as the Governor. He was a tough old gypsy guy and he knew what he was talking about, so he looked after all the activists. Cathy Morley is the lady I was thinking of, Cathy Morley and the others looked after…and the older ladies looked after the younger girls, and it was a very…amongst the women was a great bondship, the women were very…I’m not talking feminism, or suffragettes, but just the power of women, what women can achieve. They looked at the boys and said ‘okay, that’s it, let them go on their testerone [testosterone] and let them do this and do that, but we have this power, and I think it was the first time I’d ever seen the power of women in that way. You know you can’t, it’s difficult to explain it, but it was a force which was there and everybody sort of like, there was – not like in work, you know, your boss tells you what to do and you tell your CO what to do, but there it was women getting together and discussing, and doing things, not compromising, but getting together and it was like older ladies, young girls, druggies, hippy types, people that are spaced out, they were there and it woked, and it worked in a way that no one was giving orders or anything like that, it worked. It was hard to explain, but it was …you know, when you saw it you suddenly thought pffffff….

So you’d never come across anything like that before?

RL: No, because you know, you’ve got your mum, you’ve got your aunties, but that’s not, and in work, I very rarely had female bosses at work, they’re always better than the blokes though I might say, the female… but your boss was telling you what to do, so your boss tells you what to do and you tell your Cos what to do, so…

And what was your work? Sorry…

RL: I worked for BT.

As a…?

RL: Well I started off in the legal, semi-legal department, I started off in scrap lead and copper, which was a marvellous job, and then I worked my way up through contracts, and then they needed a contracts bloke to sort out the leases and licences on their high towers so I was on the high towers team. High towers being you know the big eiffelised towers with all the big radio on that? Super job that was. I stayed in that for 20 odd… I worked for BT from ’65 to 2006 then they retired me early. I got to say, for the record, BT was brilliant, they done two marvellous things, to the credit of the country and hopefully it’ll get an award. One is it took me off the streets by employing me, and the second thing is, when they knew the game was up, they retired me. Early retirement.

How did they take you off the street? What do you mean by that?

RL: Well they gave me a job.

But were you on the streets?

RL: No, no, no it’s a figure…

Figure of speech. Sorry.

RL: When I left school, my dad said to me, ‘okay, you’ve left school’, so I said ‘yeah’, he said ‘well when would you go back if you was going back to work?’ So I said the 6^th September, being a Monday, so the old fellow said to me ‘fair enough’, and I knew what he meant, I had to find a job. So me being me, I went up to the careers bloke and the careers bloke says ‘what kind of job do you want mate?’ I said ‘well, office, easy, pays me lots of money, and I don’t have to think too hard’, Post office. They sent me round to the post office, just next door. So the guy there, the head post master there said – or HPR as they called it – ‘Can you read and write?’ ‘Yeah’, ‘oh no, too clever for a postman’, which I thought was strange because they have to read the envelopes, ‘don’t worry about that, son, go next door’ Post office to telephones. Lovely lady there called Miss Bedner, lovely lady, Welsh lady, she was Miss Bedner, ‘can you read and write?’, ‘yeah’, so she gave me a little test, I could add up, read and write, ‘oh, well you’ll be a temporary clerical assistant’, and that was it. Temporary clerical assistant. And I stayed in it for 40 odd years, over 40 years. From 1965 to 2006, and then when I went home, my old dad said to me on the Monday, I was still in doors, the old fella came back to me and he said, ‘not at work?’ I said ‘I’m starting tomorrow pop’, he said ‘why’s that?’ I said ‘there’s a telegram up there’, and they hadn’t heard from me so they sent a messenger around to talk to my mum and my mum said to dad, ‘of there’s a telegram out there pop, but I was scared to open it’, see from the days of the war, second war and the first war, telegrams meant something horrible, somebody’d got killed, my mum had a superstitious fear of opening telegrams, and I’d forgotten about it, she said. So the old fella opened it up and said ‘you start work tomorrow’, ‘oh.’ So I went to work. They said to me ‘oh what…?’ So I explained to them about the telegram, of course they’d all been in the war, and said ‘oh I understand, it must have been a shock to your mum, we didn’t think about that’. So I said ‘that’s okay’, then the first week I got paid a fiver, which was more money than my dad earned, I was shocked at that, and they paid you cash, so he said ‘no go back and tell your boss I want it in an envelope’ , so I said ‘fair enough’, so I went there and I said to the bloke ‘my dad don’t want it in cash, he wants it in an envelope’, so the guy said ‘fair enough’, because then you handed it to mum, mum opened the envelope, dad would hand his money to mum, mum opened up the envelope, took out what she needed, she had a pile of jam jars on the mantel piece, put the money in all that she needed, and if there was anything left, that’s what you got because she worked out your ticket and all that sort of stuff and I always say I was under the best Chancellor of the Exchequer ever because my mum always worked out exactly what was needed for the gas and the electricity

So she had different jars

RL: Oh yeah, well in them days you put a penny in the gas meter and turned the gas, we was on the gas, we weren’t on leccy, we didn’t go on electricity till 1956, and my gran, she didn’t trust the electricity, cos it could kill you, so when she switched the leccy on she used a broom handle, so she put the broom handle on to switch the electricity on, cos it was dangerous, but she didn’t bother about worrying about the gas. And the old boy, when he changed the gas mantles, had his ciggy – he always smoked, and I said to him one – ‘isn’t that dangerous pop?’ cos the gas coming out the gas mantle, ‘no I don’t think so’. Well of course it was! Cos he’d take the mantle off, put the gas through, and stick his ciggy there and a couple of times it blew back and took his eyebrows off, but the old fella didn’t care, na, been through the war, mate.

So that was going to be my next question actually, did he go through….did he…?

RL: He didn’t join up cos he was on one of these exempt things, he was on the railway.

Okay.

RL: But he got shot at, and he was bombed. He was at Silvertown when they blew up the Silvertown – Tate and Lyle at Silvertown, just managed to miss that. He was shot at on the railway lines by German sneaker raiders, I mean they had German sneak raiders down at the back of where we lived, you know. And he was there once when Gerry come over, gave him and the boys a bit of a shoot-up, then all of a sudden, out of nowhere , this spitfire come alone. ‘Course, the Germans see the spitfire, he heads for home, and the old spitfire shot him down. But the German managed to bail out, and the boss of the railway said to my dad ‘shall we go over there?’, he said, ‘don’t be stupid, someone else can sort him out, you know, don’t be stupid, going over there’. This Gerry landed way over there, presumable someone picked him up, but the old fella said ‘oooh yeah, that’s the way to do it, yeah’. But he survived a couple of things, yeah, he was a lucky old soul. But he was in what they called a deferred thing or whatever it was. Railway, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

RL: The old boy loved the railway, you know? He didn’t want us to join the railways because he knew they didn’t have a future, wanted us to be in an office, which, good on him, you know. Can’t moan at that.

Served you well

RL: Well I think as I say, good old BT, BT’s done… yeah, I loved the job, I loved the people I worked with, and er, but I knew the time was up when I took early retirement, it was just starting to go a little bit…I’d done my stint, I’d put in my years, other youngsters could take over, great job, I loved it, but that’s it really. As I say, you learned lessons on the Link Road that you could apply to life really.

Do you want to say a little bit about that, before we stop, because that’s quite interesting.

RL: What, lessons?

Lessons that you learned on the Link Road.

RL: Well you learned that you’re all the same. Mum had already explained that to me, that we was all the same, but you saw a community in actual life. The Link Road – I know it sounds weird, but the Link Road became a living entity, it lived, it breathes. It became a living thing, so – and then when the tribal people come along, with the dragons and all this, it’s the spirit that dwells inside the earth, that spirit can look after you or it can get rid of you, but you’ve got to acknowledge it. And I’m not saying about, oh no, that’s superstition, oh no, that’s the dark side or that, no, it’s just that if you go back yonks and yonks, go back distant past, our ancestors knew all about this, they knew about the water spirits, the spirits, how the spirits can keen you or go against you, and you’ve got to be respectful to them. I mean when I go out bird watching I’m always respectful to the spirits. If I think there might be some spirits about, you’re polite to them, you don’t trash the place, you don’t leave you litter anywhere and you don’t, you know, you’ve got to be respectful to nature. Nature will look after you. And that’s what I think a lot of people learned from the tribes, that you know. And then the Wiccas come, the Wicca explain that and the healing, a lot of the people on the M11 would be treated homoeopathically by the Wiccas, and a lot of people had horrible things like exam, they treated it, they cured it, using the old methods. And they weren’t sort of like rubbing it in your thing saying ‘of we’re….’ and that, and a couple of times we would go to spirit meetings where people would say to the sun, on mid-summer’s day. We went in Epping Forest once, and we were saying to the spirits in Epping Forest ‘good morning spirits’ , sun comes up, noon goes down, good morning, you know, all that sort of stuff. It does empower you. It makes you think, it cleanses you, you know? I’m not saying that you sort of like do wacky stuff or anything like that, but it does, and that’s what a lot of the people on the M11 thought and takes with them. You’re not going to forget about that. And there’s people out there I’m sure people’ve got married, had kids, they’ll explain to their kids about how you’ve got to respect nature, I mean today I was at this thing about the Council, it’s about 200 school children come in, in the park to understand what nature’s all about. Well they’re the future those little kids, but they’re all mixes and that, they’re all different mixes, you know, but they all know one another, they all get together, so they’re all going to come, they’re all going to learn about birds, cos that’s me, I’m a bird watcher, so they’ll learn about birds, they’ll learn about the food cycle, they’ll learn about the energy of the spirits, in the world. Now they’ll go back, they’ll still prey to Allah, they’ll still prey to Jesus, that’s alright, but nature is there. You trash it, it’s going to come back and bite you. If you build all the houses, you build all the roads, all those gardens that were destroyed by the M11 Link Road, now they’re talking about building more gardens for a carbon sink, well they got rid of it. There was streams that they had to dam, and they didn’t care where the water went, you know that was land that had been there for thousands of years, the houses were only a temporary structure. The road will only be a temporary structure, in geological terms. In a couple of hundred years’ time there won’t be any cars, there might not even be any of us. But nature’ll still be here. You know, you go and look at a rock, it’s been around for a couple of million years, you’re but a blink of an eye. We come, we go, end of story, you know? Hopefully to a better place, but we come we go. But the M11 Link Road, the spirit can never die. You can’t kill what doesn’t live. The Spirit of the M11 Link Road will always be there. Them trees will be there, the four trees, they’re there. The other little trees that people took little things, they’re there, out there and they grow, that’s it. Just as my dad stood on the thing, watching the Germans bomb London, he knew London was the beating heart of this country, you couldn’t kill it. Alight. Flatten it, burn it, couldn’t kill it. Like my granddad watched the Zeppelins come over and bomb Leyton, my granddad wasn’t scared, he didn’t go around ‘ooooh, oooh, ooooh’, my granddad got as many army blokes as he could and shoot at them, my granddad was in the army. Alright, pointless exercise, 303 wouldn’t bring down a Zep, but it made people feel ‘that’s it mate, we’re having a go at them’, and then when Leefe Robinson shot the Zep down at Cufley, granddad held a minutes’ silence for the poor blokes that had dies. Alright, they might have been the enemy, but the poor devils went down in a horrible way. That is what the community was about. That is a community spirit that was put into us east enders, or people around that, the poor, you know, like the working class. Now the government might want to crush the working class, it might want to smash it and grind us down, can’t do it, it’s in there, in your heart. Can’t do it. Can’t break us. Just not possible, so that what the, that I think the legacy of the M11 has gone to a whole load of people. There was people coming from Poland, from Canada, from New York City, they would take that away and think, ‘oh yeah, I understand now, yeah sure, sure, I understand that.’ They would see – can’t break us. Alright so they built the road, that’s their fault. That’s a curse for them, it’s not a curse for us. That’s their, cos everyday people look, every time I go past the M11 I look and say, ‘well that’s your curse mate’. And the wicca people cursed the people that built the road. It’s a curse, that road has not solved the problem. It’s only made the problem worse. So you can’t beat us, cos we can’t be broken. Simple as that. That’s the message, I would think, of the M11, you know, and we’ll come back one day and bite you on the backside, cos we ain’t gone away, only waiting for the day. I think that’s it.

Okay, I’m going to stop it now

RL: Right.

Name of interviewee: Richard Leighton, Laurence Wortley and Ros Kane

Project: Voices of Leytonstone

Date of interview: 08.09.15

Language: English

Venue: Interviewee’s home –

Name of interviewer: Polly Rodgers

Length of interview: 2:57:16.2

Transcribed by: Polly Rodgers

Archive Ref: 2015_esch_VoLe_06

Archive Reference: 2015_esch_VoLe_07

Archive Reference: 2015_esch_VoLe_07

Interviewer

Interviewee

So today’s date is the 5^th October

Yeah

2015, that’s right isn’t it?

Yeah

And we’re at your house, and can you just started by telling me your full name please?

Ahm… it’s, well the name I was known on the protest, M11 protests, was John the Cook because I went into the kitchen one day and took over the communal cooking and people was really happy with that

Ok great [laughs]

That’s why I got a name, John the Cook

That’s how you became known as John the Cook, and um, can you also just tell me the year that you were born in?

Um, 1962

1962, ok great. So can you just start by telling me a bit about your family history, so anything you know about your grandparents?

Um, well something in my family is that there’s um, grandparents or great-grandparents who are not English

Ok

Like, there’s a great-grandparent from France who left so he wasn’t conscripted to the French army in the Franco-Prussian war and he was a waiter in Nice, and his name was Fosse[?], Forsee[?], and he came to London and my grandmother was his daughter on my mum’s side

Ok

And then on my dad’s side there’s Jewish, a great-grandmother who was Jewish, German-Jewish and so, yeah my grandmother was half-Jewish, half-Irish

So your great grandfather was Irish?

Yeah, yeah

Yeah, and they met in London?

No, they met in Dublin, well maybe Bray because they settled in Bray which is south of Dublin and I still have relatives, the Bray Boyles in Dub- in Bray

Do you still see them?

No, no. I have done but some years ago

Ok, um and so your grandma, what do you know about your grandma?

Um… well it’s… sort of a reputation of having… independence and strong will kind of, I think on both sides of the families, this thing of people having strong will power or something, or independ…

And so what about your parents? Have you got…

Um, well they, something that I think is quite common to a lot of people on the protest scene is that they were borderline between the working class and the middle class

Mmm

Which seems to be quite a common factor, where you know you don’t really belong to class, kind of [laughs]

Yeah, that’s interesting. I haven’t heard anyone else say that but I think that’s, yeah that’s really interesting. So, carry on

And er, and then my parents were folk dancers and they really encouraged me with, kind of, music and folk dancing and they were very, quite permissive parents and… something I did a lot was, from quite a small child I was off without any adults with, like, friends, brothers, sisters. But from like maybe the age of 5, outdoors without any adult supervision and just roaming and…

And so where did you grow up?

Er, Streatham

Streatham?

In South London

So have you lived in London all your life?

No, because in 1971 the whole family moved to… Liss in Hampshire, a large village and then I started going into the countryside much more. Like in the evenings, the school holidays, the weekends, roaming, a London kid let loose, roaming all over the local area and…

That must have been great

Yeah, yeah [laughs]

What did you get up to in your roaming? Sorry, do have a sip of tea [both laugh] I keep asking you a question

Er, well there was a ????, a big common

Mmhmm

Which was army land as well and we used to find plenty to do in this area, and then there are hills, like, ‘cos the village was in a valley and you could go up these hills, yeah

Mmhmm

And, yeah, it was like plenty

So you’d just be out kind of exploring?

Yeah

Through the hills. And was it, obviously it was massively different from growing up in London but can you talk about that at all, the difference between being a kid in London and being a kid in the countryside, how was that for you?

Um, well in London it was very multicultural

Mmm

Even in the 60’s, and like, you know some of my early friends, the best ones, was Derek from Barbados and Picaloo[?] from Pakistan, and Kaltnesh[?] from India but then when I went to the village, Liss in Hampshire, then my friends were like white British

Mmm and were you aware of that, did that seem weird?

I didn’t even think about it, it never crossed my mind, so…

Yeah, so how old were you when you moved to the village?

Er, 9

9, ok. And did you stay there for a long time or did you come back to London?

Umm, well I kind of left when I went off to college, when I was about 19

Where did you go to college?

I went to Agricultural, Horticultural college called Writtle, near Chelmsford in Essex

Mmhmm

But then I left… like… because I didn’t have the disciple or… I was too immature

What were you doing instead?

Um, I started doing menial jobs, like kitchen work, and… going abroad

And were you living in Essex still at that time?

No, I was using my home as a base, my parents

Which was back in Liss?

In the village, yeah. And then… working short time often, then back to the parents and then off on other jobs [coughs] but there was no stable career

Mmm, and when you were travelling where were you, where were you going?

Well I was going to Eastern Europe a lot, which I liked and, hitch-hiking and trai… er inter-rail

So just kind of moving around?

And voluntary work

Yeah?

Yeah, doing voluntary work, in Eastern Europe, well its almost always the same sort of work which was kind of outdoor… heavy work, kind of, you know, reconstruction or demolition or to do with some sort of architectural or cultural projects, because they could use us as workers

So, um, and what kind of projects were they, were they like charity? Were you like building schools or things like that?

Um, well no there was like clearing stones from a ski slope

Ok

Then there was reconstruction of a… a large country house

But why weren’t they paying you? [laughs]

Er because, well it was like voluntary workers but it was not, it was about international… the organisation was also about getting people, young people, to meet

Ok

Who, from the West and the East

Mmhmm

To get people mixing, and to get people across… to get them across the border without any troubles and expense, because if you went as a volunteer you had, um, guaranteed visa and you didn’t have to exchange western currency on the border

Mmhmm

Which, what normal tourists had to do was exchange for every day of their stay [coughs], so much money at a bad exchange rate

I see

And we were exempt, which meant we could change at the black market rate, which is the realistic rate

So where was that, where were you, whereabouts in Eastern Europe?

That was in Czechoslovakia

That was in Czechoslovakia, ok wow. So did you go back there a few times?

Yeah, I went to about 6 camps… on yeah in Czechoslovakia and enjoyed it a lot, and I…

Did you meet some good people?

Yeah, yeah, I met good people yeah

Anyone your still friends with now?

No [both laugh]

Not that good

I’ve moved on in my life so many times and… moved on from many, many friends and…

So what happened after that sort of period of backpacking, inter-railing and volunteering?

Well, the sort of menial jobs, travelling abroad, volunteering, came to an end when I moved to Brighton

Ok

And the reason it came to an end was because I met alternative people, like kind of, hippy, protesting, alternative people and I’d been trapped in straight society, and, I don’t mean… I don’t mean straight as in…

I know what you mean

But I mean… I suddenly… the door was thrown open and… I went into protest and ethnic drumming and lots of other stuff

So how did that door get thrown open? Who did you meet, how did you meet?

Oh right, it’s because of this day centre in Brighton, called the BUC, Brighton Unemployed Centre. I went there and it was a centre for like all these alternative people and also some protesters was visiting from Twyford Down, one of…[conversation not relevant to interview] one of the first road protests was Twyford Down

Mmm

And there was a group who visited and something about them made me curious because they moved like animals and as a group, they’re vibe was really interesting and they were very… they were dressed like hippy travellers, they’re called the Donga tribe. And one of them gave me a flyer to go to Twyford Down for a gathering, so I went because of the way their vibe, you know

How old were you then?

Errrrrr… I think… about 29-30

Ok, and do you know why they were called the Donga tribe?

Yeah, it’s because in Africa, I think Kenya or…, they were these tracks, ancient trackways, called the Dongas and they named themselves… oh right, in Twyford Down there was like, one of these tracks as well caused by ancient… people with their animals or something and so they called themselves the Donga tribe

After these tracks in Kenya or wherever it was?

Yeah, yeah

Ok great so you discovered the... [interviewer discusses whether tape is recording]… so you discovered the donga tribe then, and so then you went to Twyford Down?

Yeah, I went to Twyford Down and as a visitor, just for about three weekends as a part-timer but then it wasn’t until I went to the M11 by accident, that’s when I decided to leave Brighton and move to the M11

So tell me a little bit about what Twyford Down was like before we get on to the M11, what was it like as a protest site?

Umm… well I went over there

And what were you first impressions?

And the evening before there was like a sort of party round the fire with some drumming and mandolin, guitars, and someone, some farmer from somewhere, maybe the West Country I think, had brought a big plastic container of scrumpy as well, and then that was quite enjoyable that party and then in the morning people went to protest, and there was security so you had to dodge the security and they would try and drag people away and people were trying to occupy the machinery to stop them working and that was a bit of a surprise to me and it was a little bit rough and…

And did you go by yourself?

Yeah, yeah

And you didn’t really know what to expect?

No, I didn’t know what to expect

So did you experience any kind of roughness yourself?

Yeah

Yeah

‘Cos I had an Irish drum, a bodhrán, and this worker put his shovel through it. I mean I was playing it and I put it down to join in the protest and he put his shovel through the bodhrán [laughs]

And were you shocked by that?

Yeah, yeah I was a bit shocked, yeah

Yeah, horrible… ok so you went back a few time just as a visitor, but you were still based in Brighton?

Yeah

Yeah. And then can you remember what took you…

There was one protest called Twyford Rising

Mmhmm

In July, and it was quite hot and there was a lot of people and then it end up with police arresting about 27 people and I was one of those people

That was… ok, and what happened? What did they do?

Well we had to go to court, but then in the end, nothing happened because the case kind of collapsed or something because it was a Sunday and there was no work going on

What were you arrested for?

Obstruction, like we were on a bridge…

Mmhmm

… and sitting down and then the police told us to move and we didn’t move and they arrested people, but when it came to court they said because no work was being done and it was Sunday, it doesn’t make any difference

You weren’t actually obstructing?

So weren’t obstructing anything, no

Mmm, and that was before you went to the M11?

Yeah, yeah

Ok, so how did your visit to the M11 come about?

Oh right that was because of the anti-BNP Welwyn march in October ‘93

Ok

Because there were 13 coaches that went from Brighton to that protest and I was with, there was three of us, well there was our group at first, but then there were 3 of us – me and big Jan and Yvonne, but then there was just me and big Jan and then when things got heavy towards the end of the march we bumped into a friend of hers who used to be in Brighton who was in Lancaster University and we joined their... they’d agreed, er Lancaster University green group, and we joined them. And there were like hundreds of coaches

From Lancaster?

From everywhere, all round Britain and I think 2,500 coaches, I think. Or maybe even not, I’m not sure [laughs]

That’s a lot!

And the police purposefully mucked up the order of the coaching so people couldn’t find, a lot of people were wandering around trying to find their coaches and the people from Lancaster university, we went with them in their minibus and they said they were going to this place called the M11, where there were squats for the weekend, so we went with them. That’s how I got to the M11

And can you remember your first impressions? Do you know where you went on the M11?

Well I knew it was in North East… oh, right, it was in… first place we went was Leytonstone

Mmhmm

In the office I think, in the building that housed the office, and we slept overnight on the floor

So you stayed there for the whole weekend?

Yeah

And what happened over the weekend?

Er, there was like, it was weekend of… construction and art and pro… er, actions, trying to stop the work

And this was in ’93?

Yeah

Yeah

Yeah, it was October ‘93

So it was right at the beginning of the campaign?

Well not at the very beginning

But early on

Yeah, early-ish

Early-ish. When do you count at the very beginning with the campaign?

Well I think it’s ‘92

Tell me about that, what was the very beginning?

I think the action began in ‘92

Do you know what they were? What particular actions there were?

I think you’d have to ask someone who was there ‘cos I didn’t arrive till later on

Till ’93 [laughs] So what made you decide to…

To move to the M11 permanently?

Be there permanently, yeah

Well, it was the atmosphere, I felt this atmosphere and it was something about this atmosphere I felt that…

Can you describe that a bit?

Er….. [deep breath] it was a really good atmosphere

[laughs]

It reminded of something a bit as a kid as well, something as a child, there was something in this atmosphere that reminded me in some way. There was a real positivity and… a very artistic scene going on and real confidence and erm… and very active, yeah lot’s going on, people doing lot’s, very enthusiastic

What were the offices like?

Ummm… well there was like er, the office type people, the people who office-minded, were working there but that’s quite a minority of people who, yeah not many people was wanting to work in the office

What were they doing the ones that were working in the office?

Well there was a lot of networking on the phone

Mmhmm

Yeah the phone was the biggest thing going on in the office, and then there were a lot of flyers and magazines, sort of hand out magazines and information

So is that where they produced the road breaker magazine?

Er, no, that was another guy who was, but I think it was distributed from the office

Who was it that did the road breaker then?

Erm, I think that was Colin… Bex[Becks?]

Colin Becks!

Colin Becks [laughs]

I hear that name a lot as well

Yeah

Ah, I didn’t realise that was him, ok. But it was distributed through the office?

Ah, yeah

And the phone? What was the deal with the phone?

But there was a lot of networking with different sorts of groups

Mmhmm

‘cos one of the strengths of the M11 was all the input from different sorts of people and different groups around Britain… and there was a phone tree that was operating from the office where… if there’s to be an eviction of one of the squatted streets then the, or a big action, the word can go out on the phone tree

Mmhmm

And lots of people turn up. And also calling people for actions and action weekends, days of action

So can you just describe how the phone tree worked?

Erm, well there was… branches who would call other people and those people would call other people, but I don’t know how far it went on… to be twigs

And were you part of the phone tree?

No, I was living on the M11 then

So you went down for that first weekend and you stayed in the offices, can you remember what else you did on that first weekend?

Well I did some art

Yeah

And I did some construction of barricades and I did some action, which was [coughs] sitting on this crane, climbing up and sitting on a crane to stop the work

Do you know where that was?

It was in Wanstead

Ok. So was that around the time that the George Green stuff was happening

Yeah

Was that what you…

Er, well this was in… a little earlier. Ah, but there was the schoolchildren knocking down the fences

Mmm

This was… before then

Ok, so what were they trying to build at that point? Or what were they trying to do?

Erm, they had machines working on Eastern Avenue

Ok

In Wanstead

Hmm, so they weren’t knocking things down at that point they were just starting to construct the road?

No, they were preparation work of some sort

Ok, I see, yep. So the actions started really from then? It was just a kind of constant roll of…

Yep, it wasn’t constant but… but then there was operation roadblock where they were doing… protests every week day for a month, that was October

That was October ’93?

Oh wait a minute, when was it? No! This was in Spring, sorry [laughs]

That’s alright

Yeah, this was like, March/April ‘94

Ok

There was operation roadblock

And where was that happening?

It was happening all down the route… and every day, every week day for a month… to try and stop the work

So, after that weekend did you go back to Brighton…

Yeah

..and then decide that you wanted to move down permanently, move up permanently?

Well I had commitments until Christmas in Brighton, so I think on the 6^th of January I packed my rucksack and never looked back, moved off to the M11

And where did you move to?

There was this spot in Wanstead, called 106 Eastern Avenue… and I moved in there

What was it like 106 Eastern Avenue?

Um… some people on my wavelength, some interesting people

Mmm. Was it a big house?

No, it was a 1930’s style bay window, two storey

Oh right

But then, there was other people there who were a bit more irresponsible as well

So how many people were in the squat?

Um….

Ish… I guess it maybe went up and down

Well maybe…. [phew]… kind of, 10. But then there was lots of, there was others who were just… coming in as well who were not actually living there but there was…

There was a lot going on there?

There was school kids as well coming, also some of them had been on the protests

They were just kind of checking it out, seeing what was going on?

Well they were sort of part of the same social scene in the squat, and they knew some of the people

Were they quite young? How old were they?

Well they were like… [phew]… 14, 15, 16 age

And how long were you there for at 106?

Um… well I moved in in, yeah, January, early January and then it got evicted in February

Oh, that’s quick

Mid February

So where did you go to then?

I went off the route, there was this squat, like a normal house, in Fairlop road in Leytonstone

And were you there for a while?

Er, that was until October ’94. Then there was, in Leytonstone one of the squats got called Euphoria

And you lived there for a bit?

Yeah, and that got evicted as well

So why were they, what’s this… everything’s called something ‘ia’, Leytonstonia, Wanstonia, Euphoria, how did that come about?

Umm… Well some people, because it started with one and then it, people named it this kind of, every time there was a new one they called it with the same thing

So was Euphoria just one house was it an area?

Well there was 3 houses, 3 really big houses, like villas

Mmm, in Leytonstone did you say?

Near, right near the tube. Next to the tube

So near Claremont Road?

No, it was Leytonstone tube, just round the corner

Ok, mmm, and tell me the story about how you got your name, was that around that time?

Oh right, people called me John the Cook because I went one day and took over the communal cooking

And where was that?

That was in this kinda villa-type house in Wanstead, there were these 3 really large kind of houses and I was number 12, I think. I was cooking Cambridge Park Road, I was going into the kitchen nearly every day and, oh yeah in Brighton I’d been working in a vegan café for a year and I was used to this communal cooking, so I took over the communal cooking on the M11 and people liked it so they called me John the Cook

How many people were you cooking for?

Well I, sort of, thirty to sixty.

And did you do that for a long time.

About, about for a year I think

And the vegan café in Brighton, was that the xx club?

It was the er BUC. Brighton Unemployed Centre

So was, was was it an activist sort of set up or-?

It was a

Was it actually an unemployed centre, I’m a bit confused

It was, it was originally set up by as, Brighton unemployed workers centre, by union involvement with a grant from the council, but then the union part became less, and it became run by unemployed people for unemployed people and it was run very efficiently because they had an office and were very organised

And they had a café as well?

And they had a café, vegan café, five days a week

Is that water something to worry about?

Well its cos the drains, urgh, haven’t been cleaned

Oh, ok, fine. I was just worried something was flooding or something

We’ve phoned up the landlord the agency upstairs and they never do anything. The only time they did anything was when there were tiles of the roof, pigeons in the loft and they’d just ignored it for a few years, then we got the council involved, and the man from the council had a look then he threatened a fine, on the landlords, like our landlords and the above landlords that they’d be fined if they didn’t sort something out

So then they did something?

But they did a bodge job a cheap job

And they’re not doing anything about this?

No.

Ok. Ok, so you were cooking in Cambridge Park Road doing communal cooking in Cambridge Park Road and that was mainly for those 3 houses was it?

No. So the, the protestors, or the people on the campaign on a daily basis

So it was for anybody

For anyone. Yeah or

But there must have been different kitchens along the site or…

Yeah yeah, but it was more to do with the people who’d been active on the protest or the construction

So were you very active on the protest or did you mostly get involved in cooking and like-

Errrm, well I did some, I was doing action, but then I was more concentrated on the cooking

Were you ever arrested again during that

Oh yeah, yeah, a few times

Regularly [laughter] and did anything ever come of the, were, were they pressing charges as a standard thing, or

Only once and then the case got dr-, in the court case my, it got thrown out by the judge

How come?

Because there was police violence during the action, and also there was a big huge chunk of tape missing. The police had been filming and recording like sound but there was a big chunk missing when the police were most active and most of the police violence was and was these police called TSG, the heavy lot

What does TSG stand for?

Er, territorial support group. And a normal police man, he told a friend of mine that anyone who applied to join the TSG were a psychopath. And also in court the TSG were not very good in court. Maybe they’re good at being heavy but they’re not very good in court

Not very good at being presentable?

Umm

And so I‘ve heard a few other people say similar things, erm so was there a real sort of sense of separateness between the TSG

TSG

And the, and the ordinary police, was there a like- Do you know what I mean?

Well I never, I don’t remember them mixing with normal police. I mean they might have done, but I don’t remember, they seemed to be always in their own group

And did their tac- did their tactics quite differ

Erm, well they used violence as a tactic

And the normal police?

Mmmmmm, sometimes, but not that much. I mean, I’d say on the protests the normal police were mostly. No well actually sometimes they were out of order yeah [laughter] I remember. But then the TSG was just much worse you know

They were always out of order?

Almost always, yeah. Cos their like, they go in and they don’t ask any questions

And in terms of the- So was it the- So the Donga tribe, were there other, was that the kind of majority of the incoming activist groups, or were there other activist groups with different names? And did you become part of the Donga tribe or were you part of a different- how did it, how did it kind of work?

Er, well they were one of the largest groups, or one of the most defined. They were very, because they’d been protesting already at Twyford Down they brought with them to the Wanstead locals a real erm direct action co they knew direct action from other protests, particularly Twyford Down. And, but there was people from round different places in Britain, from other interest groups and protests and there were student drop outs, there students who dropped out to join the protest, there were like re-enactment people

What did they, what did they do?

Well no I mean from the re-enactment, because they were concerned about the country side, and there was, oh there was the druids-

Oh hang on, sorry,

The druids

Sorry , go on

People from pagan type people. You know Stonehenge, Avebury. And there was hunt sabs, travellers, you know crusty travellers, there was care in the community people

Care in the community people?

People who had problems, or drug problems, there was er people who liked the country side a lot when they were kids, there was musicians

What do you mean, I don’t, I’m still not clear on what the re-enactment people- who they were and what they were doing

Oh well like, there’s one called the sealed knot which is civil war, English Civil War re-enactment society, and there’s other re-enactment societies

And they jus, they do like re-enacted performance or?

They, well for instance they recreate civil war battle fields, and they recreate civil war life. I mean life as it was lived during the times

Ok. And is that, did they see that as a protest, an act of protest, or just an act, is it more likle art, what is it?

Well I think it’s a mixture of, it’s a mixture of art, culture, protest, sport, er folk dance, well there’s, yeah kind of. And they were concerned in the early days of the protesting they were concerned about the direction of road, of the countryside disappearing, an

Um. And so even though this was in the city, rather than in the country side it was still, it was still important to them. Do you think that they were more concerned by the roads that were being built through the countryside?

Yeah. Yeah cos they had the involvement in Twyford Down which is in the countryside. And also they were Earth First

Yeah I was going to ask about Earth First

and Alarm UK. Like fledgling groups, environmental groups who’d been developing and they got involved in Twyford Down and M11, which, and they’d not been active before

Right

I know you’re cycling groups as well. There were cycling people who were concerned about the motorcar, roads and

And was there much kind of overlap between all these different groups? Or did they all feel quite…

Oh yeah overlap, yeah yeah overlap

And do you think with Earth First and Alarm UK, was Twyford Down and the M11, were they the kind of real catalysts

Catalysts, yeah. Because it was more where they can take an active role in confronting what they see as the problems.

So it sounds like there was quite a range between sort of really radical direct action stuff and much more you know the kind of official stuff campaigning stuff the local residents were doing. Is that, is that right, that there was a big diversity in different approaches?

Yeah

And was there a lot of kind of communication between those people

But then people mixed together

Yeah, that’s what I’m, that’s what I’m interested in, how

But then there were some barriers sometimes. The worst barriers being with the irresponsible people.

Who were-

Well no in the sense that people who were more care in the community or drug problems

Oh ok.

That’s where the biggest barrier was.

Between the kind of local community and the-

Yeah

-and the incoming-

But also between the more responsible and the more irresponsible

Of the incomers?

Yeah

Yeah. So how was that dealt with, if that was a big kind of conflict

Well, it wasn’t really a big problem because there was so much space and property squats, so much squats available, and so much space on the M11 that people could do their own thing. But then the irresposibles also did stuff because they occupied places, they came on actions, so they still made an important contribution.

And do you think that was generally felt by most people that the, that there was like a tolerance for that for all those different kind of approaches or people that

No generally there was a tolerance yeah, and one of the strengths of the M11 was its diversity in terms of class in terms of occupation in terms of lifestyle druigs drinking, different groups, different interests it was very diverse. But then cos you had the office type people so the office was covered, and every area, there was loads and loads of diverse people covering all the areas

Everything that needed to be done in effect

Yeah. And there was some very active and skilful people, because there was so many people of such diversity. I was a very strong campaign because of that

And what about racially, was there much racial diversity

There was some but I wouldn’t say a lot

And so where did you fit in to all of that? How did you sort of think of yourself, in you know, all those terms

Well I was mixing with, with, there was this group Small World, media people, and I seemed to get on well with those people. And then there was others like kind of happyish sort of vegan hippieish who I get on quite well with but then I mixed with everybody generally. And I and I didn’t have problem with [pause] the, I didn’t have problem with thae druggy people

Umm, and is this, is Small World the same small world went onto festivals and parties and things

Yeah Small World, yeah

And so they, there still going

Yeah

And are you still involved with them

No, no. But I guess I was squatting with some of them in 106

Ok. Erm and can you tell me, music was a big thing? Music was a big part of the whole sort of scene, can you talk at all about that

Well there was this guy called Busker Paul who played the mandolin

Paul Gerrall[?] ?

Yeah

I know him from

And he played in the style of kind of er sort of irish hippyie crusty folky an yeah sometimes I was drumming, hand drumming

So do you remember any of the songs that were kind of particarly

Yeah it was kind of Irish folk mostly.

Was he writing

And he was writing some of his own

What- can you give me any, give me any names or lyrics, or anything else?

Ah right

Because this project, the kids that I’m working with in the Woodcraft Folk are really interested in protest songs, so part of what we’re trying to do is put together a song book

Also this couple called Theo and Shannon who were doing folky songs

Um

Who they had made themselves

Great. Can you remember any names?

Well there was… Maybe you can look it up on the internet. You know what I mean?

Yeah. I’m sure I can but

Its called- Oh whats there Album called? Its called [pause] errr, oh I cant remember.

What about pauls songs? Busker Pauls, do you remember any of his? Or any of the songs that he sang, whether they were his or?

[laughs] Its not, but if, but you can look on the footage you sometimes come across, on the footage of the M11 which is on the internet sometimes these songs are there

Yeah it’s just good to be able to hear from people who were actually there cos, which were the songs that were actually sung you know? Or the, cos you can pick any old song

There was also with the women from Greenham Common, and I remember one of their tunes which was, er lets see. [sings] She goes on and on and on, you cant kill the spirit, she is old and strong, she goes on and on and on, you cant kill the spirit

Nice. That’s great, that’s really good, thanks. Any others?

No. [both laugh]. Ah but there is on the internet therres like some Theo and Shannon songs

I’ll look Theo and Shannon up. Will I be able to find them if I just type in Theo and Shannon M11.

Yeah

So, so were you, you were drumming all the way, all this time?

Not drumming all the way through but I was an enthusiastic drummer, but a bit of a beginner.

And what were you playing? What kind of drums were you playing?

Erm I was playing…

You had your Boran, but that got

No I had no Boran

Oh You didn’t have a Boran

it had gone

That, oh, it had got destroyed. Your Boran got destroyed.

But I had a… I think it’s a jurarub[?] drum jarabokie[?]. And I also had a snare drum, but with no snare, which I play with a strap and sticks.

And were you playing with- were you just kind of playing with whatever musicians were about? Or did you have kind of a band or-

No, er playing with, jamming with whoever or other drummers, or whoever the mandolin or guitars, sometimes joining in with other bands. Folky type bands

So was that kind or=f what you were interested in mostly. Kind of the folky type side of things? Or what about the more, like the dance music that was happening around part of that scene?

Erm, well I was enthusiastic about going to rave parties, and I enjoyed dancing through the night. You know I like the new electronic dance music like techno, drum and bass, and this sort of music.

And that was like early days of that, at that time?

Oh no, it wasn’t the early days at that time, because this was already the mid 90s which was not the early days by any means. The early days was

The 80s?

Late 80s

Yeah

And in terms of this dance music, speed of change, speed of change was very very fast. And what was really good was the creative, the creative energy that so many people went and originated music.

So what erm, what impact do nyou think that that whole protest scene ahd on the dance

Ahha, this was also another input to the protest was the, the ravers.

What was there, what was there kind of focus or interest or input

Well they would turn up for actions or, there was another group who-

But why, why did they turn up, why were they interested do you think? What was it-

Errrmmmm.

What was in it for them? What were they protesting about particularly?

Because some of the protest was a kind of festival in itself, so its enjoyable and also the like erm this criminal justice bill

Yeah. Tell me about the criminal justice bill.

Well it was like a catchall law

It was like a what law?

A catchall, catch all, catch all law

A catch all law, yeah, sorry

Catch all law. And come with a lot of different groups to criminalise part of their modus operandi, and so there's a feeling of commonality and cross over interest. SO a lot of other groups having, turning up to the road protesting

So what were the groups that were criminalised by the criminal justice bill?

Err, hard sabs, squatters, new age travellers, errrmm, ravers, ravers, protestors

And how did they, how did they kind of criminalise all of those? How did they kind of group them together as one group of people to be criminalised

Under the law because there was some sections of the law and also the one of trespass and gathering, the gathering of more than 3 people. 3 people or more or something. And also the law of trespass would cover a lot of peoples interests.

Umm, um. Um. Erm so did you stick around, did you stay around right until the end. Do you rem- were you there kind of

Yeah, I’d stayed through the whole M11 yeah

So do you remem- do you have memories of the, of the eviction of Claremont Road

Yeah

Can you tell me a little bit about that?

Ermmm, well there was a night before and lots of people gathered. And then this guy called Rob who’s parents were Quakers, gave a speech and erm, and then they came in the morning

What was his, can you say anything more about his speech

Erm, well its on the internet

How would I find it

Oh its on the M11 Claremont Road documentary or M11 documentry

Life in the Fast Lane?

Yeah. Or no there's another one. Maybe its about Claremont Road or the M11

Ok so Rob gave a speech

And there's also a feeling of, it was kind of bit of a theatrical occasions as well.

So how did people live after the theatricality of it

Well it kind of, a feeling. Well there was a lot of art work that had been done and which was both part of the protest to make the eviction more difficult and as art as well in itself. So it was ;like a giant piece of art or, and the eviction itself was some form of big theatre on both sides. On both the police side and the authority side, and the protestors. And it was played as well through the media, kind of symbolically

Ummm

But also in reality it was a protest, but it was both, both the protest and the theatre.

And do you think people were very, kind of conscious of it being theatre?

Oh yeah. Yeah very

The protestors?

Um

What do you think, do you think the police were?

Yeah

The police had a sense of the kind of theatrical-

Oh yeah. I think there was you know, very little animosity

Between the police and the protestors?

On this occasion. Because it was kind of the peek moment of the protest played out for the media

Right, that’s interesting. [pause] So-

And as a historic occasion as well, but people knew it was some kind of cultural history as well

Umm, umm. Were a lot of people arrested?

No. Not on that day. No not so many [coughs]

Was there a sort of sense that it was, I mean maybe not officially, but was there a sense that there was a kind of agreement that it was just going to be fairly non-

Yeah. But there’d been a liason before hand

So did you have police liason people in the-

Ermmmmm-

In the protest site?

Yes. Well, because the ground floor was lost very quickly. What I mean is that when, when they came into Claremont Road on foot, we’re on the rooftops, or in the buildings, so they had control of the ground, and they, there was people who were in the protest but they weren’t taken out by the police. They were there specifically as liason, and the police allowed them to be there [coughs].

And do you think they had very, er kind of were they very carefully chosen people who were liasing with the police do you thionk?

Erm they, they were the people who chose themselves to do it

Well I mean there was no hierarchy to chose them

That’s right. Exactly [laughs]

But, do you think that- I mean what kind of person chooses to be a police liason person

Someone who likes talking [laughs]. I mean- But there were already people who were naturally in that role during the protest. Cos there was a guy called Wamble[?] He, I think he was the main liason.

And what made him good at being the liason person?

Because he was good at it, and he enjoyed it [laughs]

But I mean, why, why did he enjoy it? What did he enjoy about it?

You’ll have to ask him [both laugh] I don’t know

But hes not here

No, but he’s from Birmingham

Oh right, that explains it. Ok, and what was your, what were you doing?

Well I was in old Micks house. In in in in the old micks house,a nd then later on the roof, and on the tower of old Micks house. You know old mick?

Well I don’t know him personally cos- but I know of him. And was old Mick a friend, a good friend of yours then?

Erm, he was a friend. And we had a relationship but not, I wouldn’t say it was very close. And there was some, yeah warm feeling

And he was a man rthat had a lot of, he had a lot of, he had a kind of, I was interviewing someone the other day and they called him the Sherrif, was that-

Sherif?! I’ve never heard of that name. But he was, he was one of the most hard core people, yeah. He wouldn’t stand for nonsense, you need some people like that.

What was his background

Er, well he’d been a cat burglar

A cat burglar?

Yep

Like literally cats?

No

No [laughs]

A cat burglar is someone who uses their climbing skills as a burglar [laughs] and he was

Sorry that’s just me being totally ignorant, I didn’t know what that was

And he was a proper East Ender, I mean

And he was a climber as well, where did he, where did he

Yeah, he was very good at climbing

Where did he learn? Did he learn?

But he learnt of cat burglary

So what di he burgle? Did he burgle- do you know what he burgled? Did he burgle like houses or organisations or?

I don’t know, and he spent some time in prison. But he was someone who resisted, I think when he was in prison resisting the authority of prison.

Uhum. And so was there a sense, did you get- was there a sense of authority with him? in the protest movement? Diud he, did he have a-

Erm [coughs]

I mean I know

There was a sense that he was a hard core man. I mean

Yeah

Who had some suffering as well in his life and, and he was experienced, very experienced, and with kind of the negative side of life that he had experienced, and negative people, and [pause] and he was quite friendly as well. There was a very- warmth about him as well, very friendly warm person.

Do you know how he got involved in activism? Or was it just a kind of-

Erm, he was living in the street, and that’s how he got involved in the M11 protest.

Oh ok.

I think he was someone who took a leed in in the resistance against people accepting compensation and leaving

So he was a, he was, he was living in his own house, he wasn’t squatting, hew was a kind of actual local resident

Yeah. And he was offered compensation to move out, but he didn’t.

And what about Richard Leighton? Do you knowRichard Leighton?

Yeah.

Umm.

Well, vaguly.

Vaguly?

Yeah

And was he, was he, what do you remember about him?

Erm, well, quite an affable person and you know responsible, and you know in the sense of being able to communicate where more hippy type people- I mean to communicate with people in suits and more official people.

Uhum

Because more hippy crusty types, may be not acceptable in this communication.

Uhum, uhum. Where as Mick was more, more involved in the kind of direct action side of things and Richard was a bit more involved in, more like official side of things, is that right?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Ok and what about other, what about other characters?

Well there was Dolly the old lady who lived on Claremont road

Did you know her?

Well a little, but not much.

Did you go to her funeral?

Yeah. Yeah.

What do you remember about that?

Ermmmmm. Well it’s a bit sad [pause]

Ermmm-

Because I was, you know, there were some people who were very friendly with Dolly, but its more people who were sort of talkative people, and I’m not very, I’m not that talkative really. I mean I’m not a great socialiser, sort of. I mean on one on one or smaller groups, but I’m not very outgoing socially

So how did you, how did that work when you were living in these big squats full of people? How did that-

Because if you live in the same house then you can’t help but socialise

Yeah, but did you enjoy that?

Yeah. But I know I was never living in very big groups….

OK

Cos…you know if it’s..always under 20…under 20 is…not very big groups.

So you were alright with that…yeah?

Ehm I want to ask you as well….I want to move on from the M11as well and hear a little bit about life post M1! but is there anything else that’s kind of important that you think that we should talk about… about the M11 ?

[Long Pause] I can’t remember anything

What was there..was there a point when you…you…..

Oh yeah for me personally…There were some people who thought the protest would stop the road…but I knew that that wouldn’t happen cos …you know…it would be a loss of face..to the authorities and the police..for it…for the protest to be successful so I always understood that it was a more sym..I mean it was a war of attrition with money.. a symbolic protest and the idea being that we spend very little money. I mean our resources are very minimal and their resources are very maximal and we make them broke ..that was the modus operandi of the protest.

And do you think…did you understand that right from very early on?

Well from about the middle of the protest…yeah I understood this...yeah

But do you think.. most other people thought that it was…

No, not everybody but there were people who believed that maybe they could stop it,.but I knew that wouldn’t happen

Was there lots of… I mean…aside from like obviously the partying and the protest and the art and the creativity was there a lot of…. kind of talking in terms of ..you know figuring out your politics or

Oh no it was absolutely people’s free choice. There wasn’t political correctness or..or persuasion… there was no struggle over the political narrative or the cultural narrative…it was everybody’s choice…

And what about kind of conflict around about …Was there..Do you remember any..any..kind of conflict.. around..I guess the different ways that people chose to enact their cultural… erm.. .whatever you just said narrative… Their cultural/ political narrative. Were there different cultural/political narratives and was there any tension around that?

Well the cultural.. the tension was not about people’s free expression, it was about…erm.. if people’s irresponsibility caused other people a problem.

That was like….that was a big focus of..

It wasn’t a big focus but sometimes.. and I would say on Claremont Road there was a problem of ..of the lunchouts versus the active construction people.. the people who wanted a lot of activity and work done and the people who…were…not taking an active part but smoking and drinking and drugging …

And did that ever get kind of heated..or was it always managed fairly.....

Occasionally,,,it got heated occasionally, yeah .

Do you have any specific memories of that?

Errr no.Cos I wasn’t living on Claremont Road but I was there…

But you were…was it ever an issue where you were living…in the places where you were living?

Well I’m a person who likes tidying up..so.. and there was people who were lunchouts…who were… who don’t do any tidying, but there wasn’t any conflict really because I would tidy and they might.. might make a few sarcastic comments but that’s about it so…

They’d make sarcastic comments so?

[Laughs]so….

I guess I’m just thinking about the politics of living together and how….

No, there was problem with the politics of living together at all

Never?

because it was people’s choice although there was sometimes discussion but it was never… it was never animosityit was just.. talking… you know…discussion

Did you have.. kind of meetings…I don’t necessarily just mean kind of…

There were.. there were meetings….but I’m not a meeting person and I don’t care for meetings.. so…

Political or otherwise?

On the M11 there wasn’t political meetings there were organisational or planning meetings there was no political cultural correction meetings.

And what about..what about in individual houses…did people have meetings in individual houses about ..you know..living situations.

No…[laughs] absolutely not. It was just a free for all and people went with the groups they wanted to be with. The thing was, there was loads of different squats so people could choose

So there were some squats that were full of very active organised types?

Yeah

And others that were much more party

Yeah

Party-like?

Yeah, there was all sorts of…people gravitated to the people they felt comfortable with [Coughs]

And what ..I don’t…I’m not sure if I’ve exactly asked you this question about the….how the local residents responded …or how..or what they thought….was it different in the three areas, Wanstead, Leyton and Leytonstone….do you think there was a different reception from the locals in those three places?

Well there wasn’t so much…. There was not much Leytonstone locals ..

There weren’t…there weren’t many locals…

From Leytonstone.

Who were.. who were involved or who were affected or who were…

Who were involved

Right

I’m… and it was more quiet, the Leytonstone part…but Wanstead was where the most the more locals were … you know it was more…there was a big lot of Wanstead locals

Who got involved?

Yeah

That’s interesting and were they so were they quite active?

Yes they were quite active

Yeah, yeah. They were quite active yeah… and because there was the thing about George Green and it was quite a focus…and.. yeah there weren’t so many locals in Leyton and Leytonstone.

So in terms of….so so you’re saying in Wanstead there were lots of locals who actually got involved in the campaign, in the protesting . What about those local in all three areas who didn’t necessarily get massively involved but.. but… what do you think that their feelings were towards the activists who were…

Ahm… I think standoffish.

In all three places?

Yeah.. well …it was a barrier that was.. for them .. too much of a barrier

That were a cultural difference.

Yeah

That’s what you mean by the barrier and so

Stepping across become part of this thing.

What do you think people on the inside…you know the activists, the protestors, what do you thein they thought about the locals. Was there much attempt on their part to engage with the local people or not so much….

Na I think, no well I don’t think there was that much attempt to engage, but then in Claremont Road there were some days, days where it was open for the public, where for….well it’s always open…but I mean specifically on a Sunday street parties for people to just turn up and locals came ..

Did they? Locals.. local families

With their families and…then one of the problems was the kind of crusty hippy thing…was..a barrier to local people mixing.

Was there..was that..were they a really big group that big part of the…

Oh yeah yeah, yeah. Yeah it was like…………..

So at what point did …do you think that people really understood that the that the battle to prevent the M11..the M11 link road being being built was.. at what point did they really understand that that battle had been lost?

Erm..well I think after Claremont Road.

Yeah. And does Claremont Road.. is Claremont Road really like the end of it?

No

No

No it wasn’t the end. It carried on ..it seen.

So that was 9..?

4

4 oh yeah

That was November 94 wasn’t it and it carried on in into….. at least until the summer 95…and I think it was kind of the end of of ..of the summer 95 …it carried on till then …

In..in

But it was a lot less. It was lower key.

So it was more just like individual protests.. rather than a kind of constant opposition.

It was a lot less people and less active.

So in the final years of the road actually being built ….because I mean it wasn’t actually built until 98…99?

Yeah. XXX My brother was actually working on it.[Laughs] I forgot that .

As a construction worker?

Yeah. But he was also working at Twyford Down

As a construction worker?

And the real pity is that I didn’t sell the real story to The Sun or The Mail because ..cos I could have made some money out of that.

[Laughter]

Because …you know.. it could have been…brother against brother in the eco war with a photo of him in his construction gear and me with my hippy crusty clothes looking at each other, you know …

Xxxx story

One is an unemployed drop out and one is like…yeah a construction worker..

Were you… what was your relationship with your brother like during that time?

Ahhhm…. Not confrontational in any way, no.

Was it friendly? Was it

It was OK. yeah it was OK. I mean but we weren’t really close but… and I met him once in Wanstead coming up Eastern Avenue [cough] and he had his reflector jacket on and I thought it was some security guard from the M11 and I sort of reacted a bit psychologically and then I looked oh it’s my brother… you know..[laughs] … so and then we had a chat and..

What did he think of you and your lifestyle?

Oh right , well what he said it was that when he was at Twyford Down, him and his mate used to go to the camp sometimes.. and join in with the camp ..and… and he said it’s not the politics is not to do with them because they’re just told where to work and he said that he would quite happily build [cough] non-destructive projects. I mean he would quite happily build projects that are not threatening the environment but he..he doesn’t get a choice .. as to where he works.

MMM. So he was quite …. Kind of happy with the way… he wasn’t…he didn’t have a problem with the way you were choosing to live your life.

No

And did you…did you have a problem?

I don’t think so.

Did you have a problem with what he was doing?

No

No. So quite …

Cos there were… there was people in the construction and in the security and other authorities who XXXX some on our side or sort of favourable or. ..They weren’t against us and some were more on our side than…

And did they play a sort of role in your…in the tactics of your protest?

Yeah cos there was tip offs …you know…people…if there’s going to be a big eviction .....someone in the police or someone… tip… tipping off …

And do you remember specific instances where that happened?

Yeah….cos there was the… eviction of George Green …the chestnut tree …well Claremont eviction…everyone knew about that …I mean

And that… that was the result of a tip off?

Yeah… I mean a lot of the big actions or evictions had tip offs [Cough] but then I think there was some money involved as well because …if…they get a lot more work …out of a good eviction with a lot more protestors there ….it lasts longer and they get more overtime and the security want to keep working ….. so it’s in their interests for the people…. There was one in more latter days of the protest .. they… the security were paying ..paid some money for people to do actions.

Security paid money for people to do actions?

Yes

So they just approached….

Someone in the pub in Wanstead …..someone I… a friend of mine … and they offered money in exchange for actions because they would lose… they were afraid…they were think… they were going to be made redundant.

Wow..so did..what was the response to that?

Yeah… they took the money.

{1.22.3}

The took the money and did the actions [laughs]

Yeah

Probably would have done the actions anyway, erm, oh that’s great. And how about the other way round? Were there… do you think that there were undercover police?

Oh, has to of been, absolutely yeah. Absolutely must have been, I mean I never knew any but then I wasn’t worried at all because I’m not doing anything illegal, or wrong as I see it, you know

But was there a sense of… paranoia?

Not from me

Not from you

There might have been a few people but I was never bothered about that at all because… I’m not doing anything wrong as I see it in the sense of… you know

But what about just in terms of like… erm… sabotaging protests?

Aha! … but then the people who were doing that were careful about doing it… with people they knew or on their own or… and the meetings for planning things, surprise things, were done with a core group and not, no one was told [coughs] in order to, yeah, guard against informants

Mmm, but I mean if they’re good informants I guess they would get right into the…

Try to get into the core group, but… no because the core group was… there was a problem with that in RTS later because that was after some years or later but in the M11 the core group formed quite early and there was no way that the people could get in the core group

So was there just one core group or were there diff… there must have…

Erm… there might be more, there was at least one maybe more

And how many people did that consist of roughly?

[sighs]… well I dunno, sort of three to five, or something like this

And they were, when you say the core group you mean they were the people that were planning the most…

Yeah

…sort of radical direct action?

Exactly, yeah

And can you say what group they were likely to be from? Were they Dongas? Were they Earth Firsters?

Erm… well I think I know who some of the people were

I assume you don’t want to say their names…

I’m not going to say their names, no [laughs]

Yeah, can you say the groups that they were affiliated with? Or not? Or would you rather not do that as well?

Well there’s some in the office, I mean, yeah there was the office and then maybe… phew… but they were more the organisational heads

Yeah, yeah

And more to do with Alarm UK and Earth First and this sort of stuff

Yeah, but you know there were people like erm… Mark Stone later on

Mmm

You know Mark Kennedy?

Oh yeah

That’s why I’m sort of thinking about people really getting, because he was…

Aha!

…right in the core, wasn’t he?

Yeah but that’s different to the M11 because… the people… the police, authorities… didn’t have time to get their people in place before the core group formed. I mean maybe they did… I’m not sure, but I think, you know. I think that the core group had already formed and it’s too late for them to infiltrate

Yeah. And they kept that core group kind of closed?

Yeah absolutely

Throughout the entire thing?

Yeah

Yeah. And so was it just them doing those actions? Or was there a way of including…

No, no, it was…

…other people in the actions?

But it was them who controlled the information

Yep

About the location

So how was that information accessed by other people?

Well it was sent… no I mean… you can say there’s gonna be an action but you don’t announce the location

Right ok, until…

Until the last minute

The last minute

Yeah

Hmm. But the… as far as you know, you don’t know who, you don’t know, you’ve got know…

Well I think I know some of the people yeah, but I’m not saying their names [laughs]

No, no, no, no… I’m not asking about core groups, I’m asking about erm… police

Ah, informants?

Yeah, you don’t… as far as you know

I don’t know any

You don’t know of anyone

No, I don’t know any informants, no. Because I once really thought about that during my time in the protest

Mmm

And only… later on when someone said that guy was informer or… that you know… there was a photo and they said “that guy is an informer”, and I looked at the photo and I looked but I didn’t know which person they meant and I tho… I thought “is it that guy there?” and I thought… and it was not anyone I knew usually or… so. So, no I’ve got no clue who any of the informants were

But you’re sure that there were?

Of course, oh there’s got to have been! [laughs] yeah, course

Yeah. Um… ok… so when did you move out of the area, when did you stop squatting along the M11 route?

Mmm… ooh… I stopped because I went on camps… protest camps… around Britain [coughs]

What camps did you go to?

Well there was the… A30 in Devon, then there was… the M65 in Lancashire… then there was… the open cast mining… in Wales, south Wales… and er… Newbury

And so how long were you in each of those places for, were you there for like a considerable spell each time?

Erm… I wouldn’t say a considerable spell, no but I sort of…

What are we talking? Like days, weeks, months, years? [laughs]

No, no it was like months, yeah months, months. Yeah months in each place, or more or less, some less, some more

Mmm

And it was good ‘cos it got me around Britain then

Yeah, and was it lots of the same people in all of those places?

No, some of the same, but there was a lot of different people as well

Mmm, and was that kind of local people, I guess who were…

Yeah, some local and some from other places who’d, you know, from around Britain and [makes swooshing noise], yeah

And… how long did you do that for?

Er… till… well it was like ’96… well it started in ‘95

The travelling around stuff in ’95?

Yeah, well no actually it started in ’94, but… sort of living more longer on the camps in ninety… yeah… like… ’95, the second half of ’95 and then all of ’96, and then half of ’97, yeah

And then, erm, and then after that did you come…

Then I moved into a squat in South Woodford in North East London, which is just near the protests, kind of [coughs] with some people I knew from the protest and some other people who already living there. That was a post-process, post-protest [laughs]

[laughs] post-protest squat?

Yeah. Post-protest, I was squatting and… going to rave parties… and sometimes protests… but not full time anymore, and then some working… cash in hand jobs

What kind of work were you doing?

Ah, like, cemetery and building work and…

So what was the cemetery work that you did? What did you do in the cemetery?

Grave-digging and grass cutting, picking litter

And so is that how you got your current nickname?

Yeah, Gravedigger

Gravedigger. So does everyone just call you Gravedigger?

No [laughs] some people, yeah some people

Some people call you John? Is John your real name?

Yeah

So who is it that know you as Gravedigger?

Erm… samba people

Ah yeah, we haven’t talked about samba. How did you get involved in samba?

Erm… it was because… in the squat that I lived four and a half years, in South Woodford…

That was the post-protest squat?

Yeah, yeah. There was this Italian woman who moved in and she was doing samba… ‘cos she was at… she’d been at UEL, University of East London, where… they started up a protest samba band, they needed, they had an occupation… against closing some of the courses on the faculties and… and then the band carried on after… it was established as Barking Batteria… it’s called the band. And I think it was the second samba band in London, the first was London School of Samba, who play purist samba and then Barking Batteria plays afro-reggae or samba-fusion… and does more… and does festivals, protests, er…

And what about the other one… does samba tend to be associated with political things?

Yeah because, a great… an ideal place to play samba is… on the streets during a protest march is one of the best places to play… and… and… you know it’s not a paid gig, but… people are not going to stop you turning up [laughs] I mean it’s… one of the… and the audience are there people like you, and also people are… up for protesting…

So you’ve been playing with that samba band ever since?

Yeah

… that Italian woman turned up in the squat…

Well, there’s… yeah through her that I… she told me the address of the UEL room 201, in the East Building to go there, and like yeah

So you just turned up there one day?

Yeah

And… joined?

Mmm

And do they still meet at the… in room 101?

No, luckily

001?

We’ve got out of there at last [laughs]

Where do you meet now?

Well the band split into two

Ok

[coughs] because… one of the reasons it split was because the sort of de facto chairman was kind of retiring… this man called Lionel Simms… and… there was these people who were kind of… festival… like going to Burning Man festival but the European one, or even the American one… but they were sort of into these clothes, wearing these freaky clothes… but even in their normal lives, not just… in the festivals and on samba… and they formed like a group within a group, and… they sort of took over the organisation and, but there was a problem of Lionel’s power base and their power base, and it led to a split

So which one, which band are you with now, the freaky clothes?

Well the thing is that Lionel sort of retired… and… except he’s still plays in Avebury at the solstice, ‘cos his part of this Avebury… solstice camp and there’s a lot of organised… I mean a lot of organisation involved… through the whole year meetings to make this camp happen

Mmm

So he’s doing this, and… and um… there’s one… there’s a band that meets in Tottenham, in a community centre called T-Chances, a music venue [coughs] and there’s the sort of festival freak people, but I don’t mean that in a negative way [laughs]

No, no, I know

They’re the two parts of the split and I like both groups, but… I can’t… I haven’t got enough energy to go to both practices, so I go to the Tottenham one

And how often do you go?

Once a week

Once a week

And then we play gigs and…

Protests?

Yeah, but we done… the… the festival freaks… they don’t really do much protesting… they’re more into… party gigs or… showbiz gigs… and we’re more into community, or protest gigs. ‘Cos that was part of the problem in the split as well…

Erm… anything else you want to… oh, I wanted to ask… I just wanted to ask how your time on the M11 has kind of… what impact that’s had on your life and now?

[child starts crying in background] Well it… it… opened up… whole new areas to do with…

Shall I go and help with that… that sounds like a buggy that…

Oh yeah, well I don’t know [both laugh]. But… you know when I was in Brighton the alternative scene opened me up to a lot of new things and then went I went to the M11 that was like many more times multiplied… of… I mean I [coughs]

[third person speaks inaudibly]

Hello… we’re recording but that’s fine [laughs]

Say, you know, Brighton was kind of the anti-chamber, like the foyer… and when I went to the M11 it was the main hall… and my life really changed a lot and affected me a lot, you know, and I did 7 years of squatting and did the rave parties living on camps, protesting

Mmm

Travelling… drugs… like especially mushrooms, like…and er… and I… you know I feel that… I’m not so compatible with… a regular job

So, working at the cemetery works well for you does it?

Yeah, ‘cos it’s part-time and it’s… ‘cos my boss says I’m unemployable, well he thinks I’m in a normal job not employable or something, but he’s a really good boss, but he was on the M11

Ok…

He was on the M11 aswell

So did you know him at the time?

Vaguely… not as a friend… sort of knew him vaguely, yeah

And is he, do you consider him a friend now?

Oh absolutely yeah, he’s a friend now definitely, yeah yeah yeah. ‘Cos we know each other really well now and ‘cos I’ve been working since ‘98

So do you actually, he’s out there with you?

Not all the time but…

But sometimes you’re actually working together it’s not just….

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah

…like in an office somewhere

Oh yeah, ‘cos… he’s working, you know, not in the office

What’s his name?

Patrick

Patrick. Did you mention him earlier? I feel like you mentioned the name Patrick earlier

He gave me Doreen’s number

He gave you Doreen’s number?

But I said about you could do an interview, but he didn’t seem so keen on it

Was he heavily involved?

Er…. I think he was not full-time

Mmm

But he was a building worker and he got involved, yeah

So he says you’re unemployable? [laughs]

Yeah [laughs], that’s what he thinks [laughs]

Did you ask him for that information, for that opinion, or did he just…

No, he just gave it, he just said, yeah

And what do you think about that?

Er… I don’t know if I’m unemployable in an official job

But you’re happy doing… doing the work that you’re doing? You enjoy it?

Yeah because… I do the music and with the samba, I’m like entertaining a lot of people so I feel… I’m making a contribution to London… to the life of the city

Hmm

I mean, what I mean is that… I’m playing for… like on these protest marches… the playing is not just for the protesters, it’s for all the tourists, the onlookers, anyone who’s in central London on the route of the march… it’s for everybody and it’s for free, you know and… I think it’s good to have that music, you know, street music, for everybody [laughs] like

Yeah

And if I was working full-time, I couldn’t probably have the energy to do that, you know. It’s something I’ve thought myself was about the loose sweepings of all these loose sweepings… around Britain being gathered on to the M11… and… and especially people who are on the borderline between middle class and working class, who… don’t have a firm place in society, are more open to… this kind of protest

Do you think it’s just class that’s the… do you think that you’re on the border of? Or are there other kind of ways in which you’re kind of, people who get drawn into protests are sort of in between different things?

Another factor is people who have… erm… different cultures in their background… people who are not… like stereotypically… English or… culturally kind of English or…

So you think that there’s maybe something about just not quite knowing where you fit…

Yeah

…in the world that makes protest quite an appealing… direction?

Yeah, ‘cos… if you had… more of erm… a very solid framework, you’d be less… you wouldn’t be so inclined, or even physically possible to drift off and go to the protests…

Mmm

Because your place would be solidly established….maybe you wouldn’t even have the freedom…I mean…possibly…er…

So did you ..do you kind of see that as an advantage then? That…

Errr….I’ve what I call these settlers and searchers theory.

Tell me about the settlers and searchers.

Well it’s like…I think in society it’s really important to have the settlers and the searchers and both are important and I….and both should respect each other and not… the searchers are people who is not attached to the…solid conventions of society and ..the settlers are the people who..have…conventionally…tend to be conventionally following their place in society and the settlers are very important….vitally important ……cos the framework of the country can’t happen… but then the searchers have an important role to play in bringing…of going beyond…to new frontiers and to play music, to do protest…to search out and then… ..they’re called the searchers…to have the freedom to go off and…bring riches back….for the .. for the whole comm..for the settlers and everybody..

Hmmm

And there shouldn’t be this animosity.. between the two which there is..is…you know…there is….some people amount of animosity but …but maybe only a minority. But then the problem is the media try to play on the differences

Why do the media do that?

Because they enjoy…playing on self-righteous indignation…to sell papers…

So are you a searcher or a settler?

Erm…searcher…[Laughs]…but then all the rest of my family is settlers…and I respect them…for that..you know

Erm…Are you living in a house now?

Yeah

Are you living in a settled flat now? Is that…..Was that… kind of.. what made you decide to live ..like..this instead?

Alright.. it’s…when my girlfriend got pregnant…the kitchen was too dirty..so.. had to move out..you know…cos like then…the idea of washing baby’s bottles in that kitchen..

So was that was that in the squat?

Yeah…in South Woodford…cos there’s people who don’t tidy much…or some people you know…and also you feel like more privacy..when you have your own family and…also there’s people’s problems manifesting…confrontations sometimes…erm…but some people live with kids in squats and it’s not a problem for them…but for me personally I can’t deal with the untidiness…so ..you know….cos I like..you know …I like to be tidy. I like it…[Laughs]..

Yeah. And so do you think you’ll…you’ll…return to a more nomadic way of life ever?

No…

You’re..you’re..quite happy being settled now?

Yeah…..And as you get older you get set in your routines you get …and I find plenty to do in London…there’s absolutely so much going on in London…musically and protest and..and all sorts of stuff so there’s no problem of stuff to do.

Mmmm. Shall I..are we..turn this off again

Alright ..yeah .

Unless you’ve got

No..no more..

I’m really glad I turned it back on.

Alright.

…

Name of interviewee: John Frost (John the Cook)

Project: Voices of Leytonstonia

Date of interview: 05/10/2015

Language: English

Venue: Interviewee’s house -

Name of interviewer: Polly Rodgers

Length of interview: 108:46 minutes

Transcribed by: Maxwell Hopkinson/Holly …/Margaret …

Archive Ref: 2015_esch_VoLe_07

Archive Reference: 2015_esch_VoLe_08

Archive Reference: 2015_esch_VoLe_08

Interviewer

Interviewee

Yeah okay

Yeah good to go so…

So I am my name is John Ellis j-o-h-n e double l i-s. I was born the 1st of June 1952 and I was born in Islington in London, North London.

Excellent, so can you start by telling me anything about your early childhood memories?

Yeah, I was my first real memories are from when I was living with my parents in Kentish Town. In a house a classic sort of London, post-war London house with myself my mum and dad lived on the top for floor. My gran and grandad lived on the next floor down and my uncle and auntie lived in a classic London house and then when I was about erm seven or eight erm my dad my parents bought a house in a place called Colindale which is very close to Edgware. So we moved out to Colindale which is on the Northern Line and erm then about five years after that we moved to a place called Kingsbury which is near Wembley, which is where my Mother still lives. So my youth was based in that part of North London so unit, until I moved out and went to er live in Crouch End that’s that’s where I spent my youth basically.

And what did you do when you went to move to live in Crouch End?

Well I lived there because I was doing art at erm horn well it, it was Middlesex Polytechnic but it had been know has Hornsey College of Art. I did my foundation course at Chelsea School of Art but I was still living with my mum and dad at the time and then when I moved to when I started studying at Hornsey I found a little flat in Crouch Hill which is where I lived for a very very long time actually until I moved into the East End of London.

Where you in erm that flat by yourself?

Yeah, I lived by myself on a top floor and it was a….it was where I lived and where I worked so I had a little recording studio in the corner of the room and erm but I eventually when I became a professional musician I was away so much it really matter. So, I lived there from about 1974 to probably about 19 well I kept it until about 1998, so probably twenty years I was there.

And that was the first house you moved into after leaving home?

That was yes

That’s amazing

And then erm then I eventually moved in with my partner into the house in Colegrave Road which is what we are gonna probably talk quite a lot about.

Mostly what we’re going to talk about

And then [laughs] and then when that house got demolished to make way for the M11…M11 link road we were lucky enough to, my parents lent is a deposit and this house was a re-possession so it was quite cheap and at that time this area was not a great area so we were very lucky. And we had a child a one year old daughter, so when we saw this house because it had such beautiful long garden we saw the potential for a family and we were lucky enough to buy this house.

And you’ve been here ever since

And we’ve been here for twenty two years now

Fantastic, okay lets go back to the house in Crouch Hill

Uh-huh

Can you erm can you tell me a little bit more about that house? Can maybe just describe what the…

Yeah it was erm, really it was a house over a shop. So er the shop er it’s a bottom of a road called Crouch Hill so at the other end of Crouch Hill you’ve got Crouch End which is now one of the most sort of poncey parts of London full of media people.

[Laughs]

And the church that the Eurythmics owned and it was very it was when I first moved in it wasn’t anything but you know as gradually As I was living there become more and more gentrified as did the whole area around my flat. So my flat was in above a XXXX shops erm very close to erm er Crouch Hill Railway Station and it was just very interesting watching the area change over the years, become slowly more gentrified actually but it was nice living there it was great when I was a young guy…groovy time lots of parties and the stuff that young people do.

And I know it might seem like a silly question because we kind of all know what the markers of gentrification are, but can you talk at all if is there anyway

Yeah it’s always the

….In specific way

It’s the kind of cafes that open and then it’s the kind of shops that’s open and then it’s the kind people you see walking around and it’s it’s incremental isn’t it. Erm around here for

example the markers are definitely the pubs, the kind of that are opening and the kind of cafes that are opening and that exactly what happened in Crouch Hill. There was an old dairy when I first moved in there was very very old dairy right on the corner, had the most amazing mural er murals on the outside wall. Erm eventually that got turned into a pub a pub you know these are like the early days of taking old buildings and changing them into erm into bars and restaurants.

Hmm

Whereas before all the local pubs would be purpose built pubs and you know Victorian Edwardian boozers but this was the…the shape of things to come. Taking interesting buildings and turning them into restaurants and gastro-pubs and then erm then another place opened which was an organic you know that’s the other one ‘organic’ because it’s expensive so you know people they’ve worked out local people can afford it so it’s just these little things, little signposts.

Hmm and you said that you were studying art?

Yes I was doing…

At the beginning of that the period

Yeah I was doing a Graphic Design degree at erm as I said technically it was Middlesex Polytechnic but just swapped over form being Hornsey College of Art to being Middlesex Polytechnic

And what where you particularly interested in? What was your focus during your studies?

I was…illustration mostly illustration but I was there with erm some very interesting people Adam Ant was one of my mates there and erm a very famous erm advertising guy now called Daniel Kleinman we were all very close friends and erm but that’s when I started my my band I had a little I started a band called The Vibrators just towards the end of my degree and erm we got sucked up into the punk movement and so we found you know that ourselves a big proper record deal. And so I had to decide whether I wanted to be a sort okay illustrator or go off and do rock and roll which you no was a bit of a no brainer. Adam made the right choice actually he stayed and did his degree before he went to be Adam Ant but erm I jumped ship with a term to go for my degree and erm went off to be a rock n roll person.

Excellent

Which is kind of what I did for thirty five years

And do you think that was the right decision [laughs]?

Well sometime mostly I do but it would have been nice to have a technically have a degree because of course that kind of would enabled me to teach it would of made life a bit easier.

But when I phone them up and said look ‘I need to know what my status is’ they’d lost all my records so as far as there concerned I was never there anyway. So a classic sort of office stuff

Uhum, so tell me about The Vibrators and how they met?

Well we were a bunch of mates who er we’d know each other I went to school with the bass player and erm I kinda knew the guy who eventually became a singer because he was erm, he was the cousin of a very good friend of mine. So we all knew each other you know we were all face on the scene. And I just fancied I had already put together some bands previously to that and I just got a bit bored and I thought it would be nice to have a little band to play at weekends. So we we came together we learnt a load of stuff very quickly, it was just covers of other people stuff but punk was beginning to happen at the same time and because of the way we played and the material we kinda got lumped in with punk thing and we ended up headlining the second night of the famous 100 Club Punk Festival and er as a result of that we got a record deal. First of all with Mickie Most er was a very famous record producer then we jumped ship and went to Epic Records and did two I did two albums with the band at that point.

So you keep saying you got lumped together with the punk movement. Did you not see yourselves as part of the scene?

No we never no because well its whole other story you know that’s a whole debate is how musical movements come up and are constructed. I mean punk was if [mumbles] if you know if we’re really cynical it was a construct to sell records you know, record labels were looking for new thing and people like erm Malcolm McLaren realised that there was a way of doing something interesting, I mean punk had been going in America in New York for quite a long time anyway so a lot of people will always if you want t be in the music business you’ll find something too hook on to, I am a country music artist or I am jazz artists it’s a genre thing. But we were just doing our thing and other people were saying ‘oh there like a there a punk band there a punk band’ we never we didn’t set out to be anything other than I mean sadly that’s partly why we didn’t succeed, we were just a bunch of mates who wanted to have a good time. But of course all around us was a bunch of young people who wanted to be pop stars however they did whatever the close they’re wearing so they were quite ambitious and focused we didn’t care we just have a laugh. And it all happened around us so we got kind of sucked into the vortex of it all.

And so what was your what was your thing? Can you tell can you just tell me a bit about the music or about what forms of music?

Oh we were doing like Beatles covers of we’d do like Interstellar Overdrive by the Pink Floyd and go straight into the Day Tripper by The Beatles oh we might do some Tornado stuff but then we would also do some Iggy Pop stuff so it was kind of mish mash. That was before we started ti write our own thing and then we’d start to write some of own own songs as well which we gradually incorporated in fact the whole the first albums was all our own material and got a XXXX

And what kind of things were feeding into that material? I mean what was the scene…

Well all of our well first of all the things that feed into material as a songwriter is you know that’s unfathomable really it’s the stuff you hear in the womb from to stuff you like to stuff you chose to go and see their stuff your parents like stuff you hear on the radio. So that’s the big feeding but erm we were as I say we just wanted to play music that was loud brash fast and was fun to play really.

Hmm

Guitar driven fun music

And were you political in anyway?

Na no

Cool okay, so then you went off and got your got your record deal

Yeah

And made two albums

Off around the world, touring everywhere doing recording that was the classic thing that you do when you’re in a band you make records and you tour

Did you enjoy that time?

Yeah, but I was also still some illustration work I I illustrated the second album cover for example that we did and I did all our a lot of our artwork

Hmm

So for me I always wanted to try and mix my interest in art with my interest in music and I still do as far as I am concerned its just art whether it sound or visual or moving or whatever

Hmm it’s a creative outlet

Absolutely

Yeah

Absolutely

And how long did that go on for that phase of your life?

Well I left I left The Vibrators in about 1978-79 and then I did lots of stuff I worked with bass from The Stranglers. I actually played in The Stranglers for a little while before I actually became a Strangler and joined The Stranglers full time for ten years. But I also around that time I was working I worked for two years with Peter Gabriel and I worked with another amazing artists called Peter Hammill. So I was working with lots of different people and I released erm a two solo singles so yeah I was just doing music.

Hmm

Doing stuff I liked

And so you’re a guitarist?

I am a guitarist but I am also a songwriter

Okay, so were you writing the material for the songs for The Vibrators?

Some of them yeah I write some of the songs and then erm I was just a guitarist with Gabriel and Hammill er when I eventually joined The Stranglers fulltime I was a songwriter. So you know you just [yawns] get paid to do stuff and if someone doesn’t want you to write, just wants you to play guitar that’s what I do. But if someone wants you to write that’s what you do.

Hmm so what was it like being in The Stranglers?

Pshhh had its moments [laughs] that’s a whole other interview

And that’s a whole other interview [laughs] yeah I am just trying to touch on various different points in your life

That’s true I understand it

Erm in all of that time you you were still in the erm Crouch Hill flat?

No erm no I was in the Crouch Hill flat up until the end of the period that I worked with Peter Gabriel. When I stopped working with Peter Gabriel I had a couple of years off from music and did things like mini cab driving and that sort of stuff erm and that then I eventually move in with my partner who I met by then and who was living in the house in Colegrave Road so that’s when I came I kept the studio on as a work space because it was very cheap and it was easy to get to, but I lived over in Colegrave Road.

And how did you meet you partner?

[Laughs] we met strangely at a strip club because a friend of mine we had a mutual friend who was a topless waitress at a strip club and I went there with a mate of mine that knew this topless waitress and Elaine my partner had come down from Glasgow for the weekend to hang out with her mate who was the topless waitress. So we just got talking at the bar so it’s just one of those funny things

That’s a good that’s a good story [laughs]

Yeah

Erm so you got talking at the bar?

And we just got on and we liked each other and erm I relationship developed from there. It was a bit difficult she was living in Glasgow at the time. Eventually she moved down to London to manage a shop so that enabled us to have see more of each other and she and so she started to live in Colville Road that she found that place in Colville Road because a friend of hers was living there I think at the time.

And so when she got the place in Colegrave Road did she know that at that point the link road was going to happen?

She knew it was a a short-let

She knew it was a short-let yeah

But nobody knew when if and when the link road was going to happen

Did she have any idea of how? Was she told was she given…

…Erm well I think you’ll have to ask her I can’t remember

Sure

Ask Elaine when she comes back in if you speak to her

So how long was Elaine there before you moved in?

I think she was there two or three years before I moved in and then there was also another friend of hers from Glasgow living with her so it was her at the same time. So I moved in there kept the flat on in Crouch End until I couldn’t afford it anymore and then erm in fact in fact I think I kept the flat on until we were living here. I still had it when we were living here if I remember correctly in fact definitely

And you were using it as your studio?

Yeah it’s a workspace it’s great because it was cheap. There was rent control and everything but gradually the eventually the landlord managed to get out the rent control things that started to put the rent up so eventually I had to get rid of it. So now I work from this is my my bedroom is my workspace now.

Hmm and so when you were in Colegrave let’s talk about Colegrave Road because that sort of the focus of the interview

Hmm Hmm

Tell me about the house?

It was a classic Victorian house that had been converted into a upstairs flat and downstairs flat. I am not sure if Acme had done that or when that had happened but we lived in the upstairs flat and it was number I think it was number six we were the third house a long from the station. It was lovely beautiful tree lined street we had a lovely big tree outside were we watched pigeons nest all the time like really close for the station for getting into London. It was idyllic really

Hmm

It was fantastic and erm the back the back room was the bathroom and that overlooked the cemetery and er the railway line it was lovely

And XXXX

And to be honest we we weren’t really we didn’t really know very much about the people in the street at that point, we we’d say hello to them and but we weren’t it was such a weird little community because there had been XXXX all their lives and then the artists and various other people in-between so it was a kinda strange. I am weird things would happen like you’d wake up one morning and the street would be full of cows because at that point there was cows grazing on the flats erm and then of course there was the famous er hurricane that blew down all the trees so a lot of amazing things happened in that street.

Did it blow down trees on Colegrave Road?

Yeah yeah I was out I was working in Bath at the time and Elaine phoned me up and said ‘I can’t get out the house there’s a tree the trees fallen down and it blocked the way out’ eventually they came and cut it up yeah it was heavy duty actually.

And were you in an Acme house?

I think I am pretty sure it was a Acme house it was it if it wasn’t a Acme it was a Department of Transport house. London transport had least it to a housing association where if it was Acme I can’t remember. Because Acme was really for artists.

Well yeah so is Elaine an artist?

No

No, so probably…

It probably wasn’t an Acme house but it was leased to another housing association. And erm I can’t remember how much the rent was I think at one point we just didn’t pay rent at all eventually which was quite nice.

And erm what year was it that you moved in do you remember?

I think I moved in well my daughter was born in 1993 so we were probably there…probably I move din around 91 that sort of period 1991. Ask Elaine she’s got a much better memory about that stuff then I have.

Yeah that fine erm and you said when you first move din you weren’t too familiar the community or that it felt fragmented is that right?

Yeah we didn’t know we didn’t go out of our way too meet local people might have been nodded at them of course we knew Richard Leighton he was our neighbour.

Aha

So we knew Richard very well to he was very nice and friendly erm but he was probably the only person really knew in the street because we never needed to go out to the other end of the street unless it was to go to the pub erm but we didn’t really know anyone in the pub either so we was kind of our own little but as I said apart from Richard who we got who we knew pretty well

And did you know his Mother as well then?

Well she hardly ever went out because she was really really old but yeah we met her loads because occasionally she would come out an stand at the front door so we did know her we knew she was there erm but she was as I said very old. And she I think I believe she was born in that house which quite amazing.

What about erm people on erm Claremont Road did you know them did you anyone on Claremont Road no?

No we started to get to know everyone once the campaign kicked off and then everyone knew everyone else but up till then it was just classic London street. You knew a couple of people I mean like around here these these people are great neighbour’s great friends new people next door XXXX great this guy’s let his out to like umpteen people who knows how many people are living there

[Laughs]

We know the lady across the…you it’s just London story isn’t it. So you know some people about half of the people you don’t know

Hmm

It’s not like the old days or the mythical old days when everybody knew each other and everyone helped each out probably a load bollocks anyway.

Erm okay so that was 1991 and then the campaign kicked off when?

Well I mean it’s really its really I can’t kind of get hold of a lot of this stuff so…[Mony?] was born in 1993

And she was born in the house?

She was born well we tried to have her born in the house

Sorry I didn’t actually mean it but I mean you were living there?

Yeah we were living there she lived there for a year with us. So if she was born in 1993 and the campaign had probably going for at least this my timeline is going all over the place here

That’s alright

But it feels like the campaign was about four or five years long, it can’t have been but erm dates Richard is best to ask about, but I bet you he can tell you the exactly the date of the very first meeting we had in church hall

Ahh

…When there was about four people there

So don’t worry about the date but tell me about what you remember about that first meeting?

Right, so what I remember is Richard banging on our door saying ‘so you want to come to a meeting?’ ‘what about Richard?’ ‘well you know there’s a they are planning to build a road through here?’ ‘no well yeah vague vaguely’ ‘well they are they are going start get going and we I want I think we should sort of have a talk about it what might happen to our houses’ ‘okay we will be there later’ So me and Elaine and Richard was there, probably only two other two or three other people max. So Richard explained what was going on and and he said’ I’d quite like to get a campaign to see what we can do’ so I said ‘look I don’t mind volunteering I’ll be a press officer if you want’ and that was it that little church hall which is still there

Whats the church?

It’s a little Methodist church hall on Grove Green Road. And then it picked up pretty quickly from there and that’s how we started to meet people by dropping leaflets and banging on door and asking people to come to meetings and erm yeah

And what did your role as a press officer entail what were you…

My job was to let the local press know a we started a campaign and b as the campaign went on to let them know about things we were doing if were doing a stunt or we were doing a protest to get the press and T.V down which of course they were eager because it was very very good copy and it was very good T.V if you pull if you do dress up and you do you know build a cardboard city outside the Department of Transport they love all that stuff so it w an easy sell to the press and media people and erm but you know my job that was my official role but because there was only four of us I was you know we were the people that did the initial research about what happened at the public inquiry what do you do you know there weren’t many of us to find that stuff out

So it was you and Elaine and Richard

And a couple of other people

Do you remember who?

It might have been she possibly Sheila Whitaker who’s a friend of ours possible Sally Barker who was at that time living with Paul Noble possibly Pauline I can’t remember it was an artist pretty sure there was a couple of artists as well. And then things started to quickly like all did his famous erm blue plaques ‘an artist lives here’ I think people started to get into the idea of that a the road was wrong and b there was a community worth defending but you know one of the things we found out as went around that a lot of people wanted the road because they thought it was going to be good for area good for the economy good for whatever. So you’d be you know you weren’t just fighting the government you were fighting local people who were in favour of it.

Local people around Colegrave Road?

Yeah oh yeah a lot of people wanted

Ohhh

You know you bang on a house say you ‘you know these houses are coming down to make way for motorway?’ ‘well that’s great these houses are slums anyways’ you know what we need new houses so the motorway will take the traffic of Grove Green Road you know it’s all the selfish reasons really. I guess we were selfish and motivated we didn’t want to see our house get knocked down and of course you have to bringing all the other stuff like pollution and increase in traffic because the more you research the stuff the more you realise just how dreadful motorways are for the environment and when are you going to stop. The classic thing was I did a radio show I think it might have been The Today Programme it’s one of those early morning news interviews and the guy say ‘what are you trying to achieve?’ I just said ‘look I just think we should stop building motorways’ and they kind of looked at me like I was a total idiot but I said ‘okay look if you don’t stop when are you going to stop there has to be a time when there simply no more space left’ so you know you’ve either got to start to address these now or just give up on the environment but people don’t like those kind of arguments because it’s too difficult to deal with you know you have to re-think everything the way you live your life fundamentally.

Hmmm

You have to kind of come to the idea that cars aren’t everything and you know you need to invest in public transport. But then you get then you get a row with well if you invest in public transport and the rail is going to go through my back garden its very very very complicated. So yeah we found a lot of actual hostility towards our campaign locally but most of the young people the young artists they all got behind it so then it became a lot apart from tradj a lot of the tragedy of it and the heartbreak and the stress of it a lot of it was fantastic fun, had a great time a lot of the time.

So it gathered momentum fairly quickly?

Yes it did I seem to remember it did go and then what happened was a group of campaigners from High Gate heard about us and they stopped a motorway in High Gate and they were pretty clued up. I mean I am not sure what their political motivation was see I think eventually what happened was all sorts of people accrete to the project who had you know who had different political agendas. They weren’t that interested in the road they were anti-government or you know they were from more extreme end of political thinking. But they came along gave us loads of advice and came to some of our meetings they were nice enough people and then we started there was this amazing bloke who was like really famous who’d written a big study on motorways I've forgotten Richard will tell you. He was a really famous erm he was a really famous transport advisor stroke investigator very very famous.

He’s not the erm Lister Goldsmith that’s the the were architects who planned the cut and cover proposal the cut and cover yeah

No no this is a guy that was an independent write thinker on transport

Okay

And we had two or three people like that like John or my memories gone, we had a guy that’s always on T.V talking about stopping airport runways and stuff so accreted there were local people who just didn’t want to see their house knocked down, there were people erm were philosophically against erm large transport infrastructure there was always people whose politics were just screw the government I am sure we were infiltrated by all sorts of people I am pretty sure our phone were tapped eventually.

By police?

Probably the police yeah or the government yeah. Because we were getting under their skin really we really embarrassed them a lot of the time so that we were not in their best XXXX so erm but yes it gathered it quit quickly gathered momentum as soon as you announce your doing this then stuff starts to happen. As soon as your on the T.V with your first protest then everybody know who you are and what’s going on. Local press didn’t like us strangely enough.

Really?

No

Because you were very media savvy as an organisation weren’t you? As a campaign I mean

Don’t forget there’s two campaigns there’s the Claremont Road punch up part of where everyone was cemented into their house and the previous bit. So I am talking about the previous bit and I would like to think we were media savvy because I was the media person and a press officer but we did know how to get T.V down we did know how to get local papers to write about we did because we put on stunts like we built a cardboard city outside of erm the Department on Transport that got a lot of T.V coverage erm one time we we during the public inquiry because there was a bit were when they take away when then take away public land to build s something like a motorway they have to replace it with land of equal value and we found out the land of equal value they had given us was actually toxic so went there and dug a ld of it up. I put it in a big tub and we took a nuclear waste sticker on it and we dressed up in white boiler suits and we marched into the Town Hall and of course people were going ‘its nuclear waste its nuclear waste’ great T.V of course it wasn’t nuclear waste but all that sort of stuff you just thought of things to do that would really get people going. You know but they they constantly shot themselves in the foot anyway. The very very first public inquiry was strange enough was held in a library up the road we got in there and I saw that all the cables from microphones er where laid out through the chairs of the audience so I phoned the fire brigade and said there’s a fire hazard here they came down and immediately shut it. That put it off for six months that’s must of cost hundreds of thousands of pound to put off. Just because they were absolutely stupid

Hmm

They were absolutely stupid those people all the way through. The very last thing that happened judicially I went to the High Court very last thing to appeal my house getting knocked down a judge tore into the Department of Transport you’ve been totally everything I look at is amateur it unbelievable we put on a more professional campaign then they did and they’ve got hundreds of people being paid to do it but we were amateur

So why do you think the road was built in the end?

The road was built in the end because you can’t realistically at that point we didn’t have the. Right well we lost the legal challenge as a result of the public inquiry that’s why it was built it was allowed to be built because we failed to stop it legally. The Claremont Road thing thing that was a sort of temporary hold up if we’d had like I said if we’d of had the internet and more legal people advising us and more money to fight the campaign we might have been able to stop it but that road had been build been thought of for a very long time and you know they there quite a lot of joined up thinking I am pretty sure they people were saying possibly the Olympics and possibly this part of the world was were and this part needs regenerating so there was a massive move to bring that link road to regenerate and your talking about huge business business conglomerates

Hmm

We were just a bunch of twenty people with no money no no how to do it we did an amazing job but ultimately. It’s a bit like King Cnut you cannot stop the tide of with only twenty people and no legal knowledge and no money so that’s the thing why it got built because we just failed to stop it

Erm can you just talk to me a little bit more about the distinction between the Colegrave Road campaign and the Claremont Road campaign?

Yeah so Colegrave Road and Claremont Road were two roads that both ran parallel to the railway line but separated by some houses. So Claremont Road had been pretty much a lot of the artists more Acme houses there then in Colegrave Road erm and there was also a remarkable old lady called Dolly who was living there who became quite an icon of the whole campaign but once we once we lost the campaign legally the people living there said ‘we’ve lost the campaign’ because a few of the people in Claremont Road had been part of our campaign

Residents or…

Residents no they were some were residents some were actual residents and some were artists living in Acme housing. And having lost the legal having lost the legal battle the road officially was going to go ahead so what do you do you say we’ll physically stop it. We’ll stop them knocking the houses down so that’s the differential is that Colegrave Road was really connected to the legal campaign which went on for several years and revolved around the public inquiry Claremont Road was really the protest the physical act of trying to stop them coming in to knock houses down as result of us failing you know to stop the legal process

To win the legal battle

To win the legal battle

Okay so they…

So there was the reaction to our loss of the battle really

And they were direct action

They were direct actions so a lot of those people were people from all over the country the people who who would do direct action anywhere because there political or whatever erm anarchic world view whatever you want so it was the physical campaign to stop the houses being knocked down. Whereas our we fought the legal campaign as it were we didn’t try to stop them physically knocking our house down because and from purely selfish point of view if we had done we would of lost a thousand quid or whatever it was that they were going to give us in compensation so that that’s the different mainly

Hmm and once you lost the legal battle I mean presumably your house was actually knocked down until after the Claremont Road battle had also taken place an bene lost?

I’ve got a feeling our house went down before the end of Claremont Road I can’t it’s such a long time ago and I didn’t really keep a diary or anything

Sure

But the houses were knocked down bit by bit [banging] along our street

And was

…and one house would go and then another house would go and they would still be people living in that house and that house would go. I mean the last the last real big event was erm Mrs Leighton being dragged out the house, so I was still living in we were still living in our house but you know the writing was on the wall we had to go by a certain time which we did. We moved our stuff out to a friends house whilst we were in the process of looking for somewhere to live.

So you took the compensation?

Yeah I mean who wouldn’t? You know

Richard for example [laughs]

Yeah but that’s up to Richard but you know erm I think I think realistically you have to say I’ve given it my best shot we’ve lost what’s the best we can get out of this rubbish situation, so walking away with a thousand quid as opposed to no quid it’s a no brainer as far as I am concerned. And er we gave it our best shot and I think we really really freaked them out completely

Hmm

I’d be really what I’d be really interested to see is all the notes internal notes from the Department of Transport from that time I bet there’s some amazing stuff

Yeah

I bet it’s amazing I mean I wonder if its possible to ge tout through the Freedom of Information but I bet you there really bastards M11 because we cost the government millions and millions and millions and millions and it was probably the first they were probably thinking this is a doddle we’ll just get rid of these houses build the road it will be lovely. But suddenly there’s these people a real thorn in their side giving them a real bad time just telling them how illegal their public inquiries are etc etc they didn’t like it.

So why when you say how illegal their public inquiries were what do you mean?

Well they because you know public inquiries are supposed to be run through a set of rules. They published the rules before the inquiry happens this is what’s supposed to happen at public inquiries like I said before they’re supposed to put they are supposed to put did I tell you this? Maybe I was telling Oliver okay so one of things they have to do is they have to put all the documentation drawing and maps etc into local public libraries for the public to go look at before the public come along and sit in the inquiries so that’s you’re informed.

Hmm

So the very first library we went to didn’t exists it had bene knocked down five years before so that was a lie the first thing we found out so we knew from there on that’s a lie next library have you got the documents ‘ah I think they’re going to send it in a couple of weeks’ it’s all that stuff then you get into another thing in a public inquiry for example is the inspector who sits in the middle who runs the inquiry he’s supposed to be not his officers and room are supposed to be completely separate from any of the any of the people appearing in public inquiry i.e. the Department of Transport. His office was in the Department of Transport office. We had to fight for translations I mean it was just almost everything they did you look in the book and see you out you hand up and say look ‘according to the book your…’ ‘I don’t care we’ll proceed we must proceed’ And when I phoned up the department the Lord Chancellors office because they officially run public inquiries or they did then they really didn’t really lie it that a member of the public was even daring to phone the office. It was a like an a amazing eye opener it was incredible we learnt it was as I said it was incredibly stressful heart breaking people had nervous breakdowns people died before they should of done as a result of the campaign but I got a massive amount out of it its fantastic

Who died before they should of one as a result of the campaign?

Well like there was a lady called Mrs XXXX for example who lived across the road from us four or five doors up she had breast cancer she was a old lady had a lovely garden she had breast cancer she was man handled in the public inquiry by an untrained security officer for example she would of probably lived a lot longer if she hadn’t had all the stress been turfed out into an old peoples home erm several people had nervous breakdown Mrs Leighton dragged out of her house its just that kind of stuff

Yeah horrible

It is but it goes on all the time you know that’s life isn’t it

So at what point did you realise the legal battle had been lost, is that a fairly clear…

Yeah when the public when the I am just going to turn the light on

How are we doing for time are we alright?

I’ve got another fifteen minutes erm when the inspector basically well fundamental when they when the result of public inquiry said we see no reason to not let allow a link the road to go through that was it really. We all appealed I appealed as I said went to high court the judge said ‘I think has been appalling but legally you don’t have a leg to stand on but I think the Department of Transport have behaved pathetically’ in the way they’d been really bad at their job they got a real hammering that’s why I’d really like to see the stuff in the Department of Transport because I bet heads were rolling left right and centre

Hmm

As a result of our campaign

And where so once you lost that campaign and then the Claremont Road direct action campaign started were you how kind of involved with that were you?

No not really because we had done our three or four years of you know a real lot of work

Hmm

Massive amount of research every day at the inquiry a real lot of work we did

Hmm

We kind of lost our spirit by then to be your not going to stop it, you might have a few punch ups it might be laugh for a bunch of young people but we had young daughter I was touring a lot its couldn’t do it anymore

Hmm and do you think you know did it bring the community together did it end up being much more than…

Yeah we’ve still got loads of mates from the artist community that erm we would never had known if it hadn’t been for the campaign and quite a lot of people in the street we’d never really of talked too if it hadn’t of been for the campaign. So I think they do bring people together you know either for a long period or for a short period but they definitely erm and you know we’d always end up in the pub afterwards and it was always a great atmosphere and lots of people it was good it did create a community spirit I think

And were more than four of you involved in the kind of core work of the campaign?

Yeah yeah probably twenty or thirty eventually

Hmm

One of who was a lawyer but his expertise was in something completely different but he did his best er we didn’t get any they had something like fifteen paid lawyers working for them and they hated us they really hated us erm and we had one guy who was in dunno town planning not even related road it was matrimonial law or something I can’t remember but he did his best he eventually became a big councillor. Its was very very interesting.

Hmm and did it politicise you?

No far from it I am totally apolitical…you know I don’t trust politics that in fact if it did anything cause our Labour MP Harry Cohen would occasionally turn up to look good in front of tele and er we had high hopes the Labour cause we kind of were Cohen would say thing s like if Labour get in we’ll stop this road and Labour did get in and they didn’t stop the road so you just kind of it reinforces people like me. I am cynic when it comes to politics I think they lie through their teeth most of the time. So no didn’t really.

Erm I could as you loads more things but given we’ve got quite limited time

Hmm

I just I wonder if you could say a little about erm leaving Colegrave Road did you witness your house…

Yeah I watched it yeah because we kind of had a running battle with the people who erm the people who did a lot of that work I’ve forgotten the name erm Squibb and Davis they were called something like that they were the guys that would come and demolish houses and we hated them because they were working class blokes who would just go in and smash up working people’s houses so we’d always give them a bad time about it. Erm but yea I watched the house get demolished I stood opposite the road and watched it get knocked down basically.

What was that like?

It wasn’t a real big deal you know we didn’t own the house and we kind of psychologically moved on by then and erm we were in the process of coming over here we’d left the house we were living around a friends a friend had gone to America for six months so they said use the house store your stuff and come and live in the house. So we were there while we were in the process of looking for a place to live so we kind of psychologically switched off that’s then now we move on

Hmm

Which is what you have to do you can’t you can’t just remain attached to things like that you can’t let it…we’d had three years of massive upsets I wasn’t going to be upset anymore

Hmm

So yeah watched it knocked down get knocked down but we did get the fireplace out of it we took a few things out like the fireplace like a lot of people did a lot of people got in and got nice stuff out before it went into Squibb and Davis’s skips and things hmm.

That’s nice

Hmm

Erm and so then you moved into this house can you just finally my last question really is just kind of what the legacy of that period of your life has been? How it’s affected you? How it can effected the rest of your life is there any can you talk about?

Yeah well as it said its kind of made me cynical about politics which I think is quote a good thing really erm I learnt a lot about running campaigns which is good for me personally because you know as a musician I need I kinda your constantly on the campaign to promote your own work. But also it did also kind of create a big sense of community for me although you don’t there not a lot of community despite all the bullshit that we’re one big happy multi-cultural community its lies its lies you know but I volunteer for a radio station a community radio station but I do what I can for what there is of the community. But the community is not what people imagine it to be its just pockets pockets of like-minded people and culturally connected similar people so yeah I’ll always do what I can for communities erm what else? No that’s about it really erm I ended up writing a song about for The Stranglers called Paradise Row because it was all happening so much of it was happening when I’d been in The Stranglers in my early ears of The Stranglers.

But obviously I can just look that up

Yeah

But erm this project I am also working with a group of young people on this project and what there particularly interested in is the music

Hmm

So can I just my final question can I just ask you a little bit about the you know the music around at the time particularly that song how did it go?

Erm huh I’ve forgotten {starts to sing] and the pharaoh raised his hand said dig a road in the promised land and…’ I dunno can’t remember but its on our second album I think it’s on the second Stranglers album erm but also there was a lot of music in Claremont Road actually there was a band called Bark Psychosis who went on to be quite big in kind of underground world and you know that erm Damon Albarn lived in Grove Green Road

I didn’t know that

Oh yeah

[Laughs] that’s terrific I can’t believe I didn’t know that

Of course this whole area is full of Hitchcock was born at the end of my street

Yeah I mean I know that one

So yeah Damon Albarn was up here

I knew he was in the area but I didn’t know he was that close

No Grove Green Road

Yeah okay but was he around at the time?

No he wasn’t he would have been a young guy I mean he younger quite a lot younger than me so he would younger watching it happening presumably. I don’t know maybe he did take part in protest it would be interesting to find out actually erm but there’s also some other really interesting musical connection not necessarily to do with M11 link road there’s a very famous English composer called Cornelius Cardew who was killed at Leytonstone Leyton Tube Station actually mysteriously killed at and he had a thing called the scratch orchestra of which Michael Niemann the very famous film composer was a member. So there is a lot of music stuff around here actually

Hmmm

It’s quite it’s an interesting area actually and a lot of the people are coming back like there are artists creative people Theresa real regeneration now happening which I think is wonderful.

Okay well I’ve asked all the questions that I’ve got, but is there anything I haven’t asked that you feel has has been missed out?

No I mean I am sadly my memory for dates is rubbish Richard people like Richard have got they must have tons and tons of paperwork that if you really wanted to get your teeth into you could do a proper timeline and

Hmm

And all that stuff but no no I can’t there weren’t any sort of totally major incidents that you there were a lot of amazing incidents like things like the occupation of the tree at Wanstead for do you know about that? Erm just incredibly interesting events around as part of so I wouldn’t have missed that for the world

And did they feel fairly kind of connected up were you kind of aware of all these other things going on?

Well the Wanstead protests that that was kind of we were all really involved in that because that was while the public inquiry was going on that Wanstead Wanstonian the people living in the tree on Wanstead and the punch ups with the security guards and everything. Erm no I mean it probably needs another conversation about the nitty-gritty of day to day life in the street while it was happening like for an example towards the end the street was full of security guards standing outside empty houses and they eventually drift to outside our house and talk incredibly loudly all through the night and that not that not a coincidence that was just to piss us off so we go you know its little things like that as I said all sort of clicks on the phone. I I would really like to see some records from the police or from the Home Office or from the Department of Transport for that period because I bet they put us down as they had us down as real political anarchists getting funded by Russia or something. They probably that’s probably their thinking at the time because they [stutters] you know turns at these so called very brainy clever people a lot of the are absolutely stupid

Hmm so did you ever go down and speak to the security guards outside of your house?

So why you stating and they give you just a load of verbal, so there was liaison guy to ring up every day said ‘you know your guys are outside talking’ ‘I’ll talk to them’ and then they would be there the next day the next day. And then there was a time when I think when Mrs Leighton was being kicked out there was four cordons of police at both ends of the road and I was in the house with my baby my partner was away and I went down to protest against something and police came over and shut the door while my daughter was still upstairs by herself you know less than one year old I said ‘look my daughters in the house’ ‘go and talk to the inspector’ it’s that kind of stuff

So he locked he shut you out of your own house

He didn’t know my daughter was up there but he shut the door to keep me out the house he though oh you won’t be able to get in now you’re the house you know they wanted us out as quickly as possible

So did you watch Mrs Leighton being taken out?

Yeah I was woken up in the morning when they broke in her backdoor they gave her like thirty seconds there supposed to give you something like five minutes to get yourself together they gave her thirty seconds. Richard I remember distinctly I remember Richard saying [mimics voice] ‘hang on hang on I am putt me trouser on I am putting me trousers on’ and then they through the door and the next I see is Mrs Leighton coming on a stretcher and then this is a skip outside and they chuck they are supposed to store your stuff they just chucked it in the skip and there’s all these young policeman laughing like it’s a great big joke this old lady being yanked out of her house.

And where was she taken to?

I don’t know an old people home or hospital or something?

Was she put taken straight in put into an ambulance or something?

Yeah

Yeah and Richard was kicked out at the same time?

Yeah

Yeah okay

That’s at least we not in Palestine or Syria or something that mild compared to what some people experience some days but when you talk to people people go’ nah that can’t be right the government wouldn’t do that no that can’t be right the government would be so nasty to people’ well so that’s the great thing is an eye opener it’s a real eye opener about how stuff work and that’s why people like me I am cynical about all that stuff because I’ve seen how it actually works and the bullshit and the lies they tell you

Is that the end of the interview?

I think so yeah…liars and bullshit

{Laughs] thank you very much

My pleasure

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: John Ellis

Project: Voices of Leytonstonia

Date of interview:

Language: English

Venue: Interviewees’ home

Name of interviewer: Polly Rodgers

Length of interview:

Transcribed by:

Archive Ref:

Archive Reference: 2015_esch_VoLe_09

Archive Reference: 2015_esch_VoLe_09

Interviewer

Interviewee

Can you just tell me your name?

I am Dermot Morrow

Can you spell that all for me?

Sure, its d-e-r-m-o-t m-o-r-r-o-w

And can you tell me the date of your birth?

It’s the 1^st of May 1973

Brilliant and todays date is?

It’s the 11^th of November 2015

Excellent and we are in your house in Haringey. So, to start with er actually can we go back a little bit and can you just start by telling me a little bit about your parents [laughs]

Sure sure

Sorry I didn’t explain we were going to do that but it’s a life history I want to get a bit of a kind of broad context

No absolutely erm I I I would of probably started there anyway I guess erm so what sort of lead me to to go to Claremont but my parents erm both parents erm from Ireland my father was from North of Ireland from Belfast my Mother was from Wicklow in the Republic erm they both moved to England in the late 50’s and early 60’s and they moved to Holloway in North London and that was where I was born and grew up so Holloway is a very erm Irish community erm at that point in time and they were erm not so much now days erm but yeah I grew up in a sort of erm in a mixed community there was my my erm I was an only child erm and yeah grew up through the sort of erm late 70’s and through the 80’s through sort of in Holloway and kind of an interesting yeah an interesting time for me erm…shall I just contextualise stuff as I go or do you want to prompt me with questions sorry?

No I’ll always wait and let you do the talking but if but if I am not…I f I think that you are stalling then I’ll ask a question

Sure

But just keep going

I’ll just ramble

Keep rambling [laughs]

Okay, so erm yeah so I suppose for having thought about kind of what made me the person I am I guess probably living through the 80’s and that particular point in time was quite erm quite instructive instrumental for em it was erm a period I guess being a kid erm from an Irish family at that point obviously they was they they Troubles over in Ireland and and the hunger strikes in the early 80’s there was a lot of everything was very raw and very there was stuff on the news sort of all the time there was either sort of you know attacks going or else there was kind of hunger strikes or things like that and my neither of parents were particularly political but I I don’t think that you could sort of help being political in a very you know very small XXXX way at that point in time erm I guess they felt to be not not so much in Holloway but there was kind an awareness of quite a lot of anti-Irish sentiment around at the time. Erm and erm I think particularly around the sort of hunger strike period and stuff after that erm there was stuff was yeah very stuff was being talked about a lot and I suppose that was my first real interest erm in sort of in the wider world seeing things on the news and actually hearing my parents talk about stuff in quite sort of quite sort of emotional ways and it just got to make me aware of the outside world and the big issues of the day

Hmmm

So so those are the first the first kinda things erm

Did you did you go back to Ireland at all? Did you ever?

Yeah we went erm Ireland was a kind of annual pilgrimage it was sort of ever every August we would go back home as it was you know that was your holiday we were going back home for the summer so we would go either to parent my mums side of the family or to my dad’s and it was pretty much Ireland every year so we’d we’d go over and erm visit the family and you know hear about everything you know that’s going on back there really

And do you know how they met your parents?

Erm just just in the Irish diaspora in North London they met in…

[Clicks] they they moved here separately?

They did oh yes yes they met in London they me they met in a dance hall in the Archway the Gresham Dance Hall which is no longer there and erm yeah it was er jus just as it always been just erm you know friends of friends kind of thing and they met there

Excellent, so sorry I interrupted I think I think we were back in London and then you were talking about yeah being aware of the wider world so erm can you remember…you first sort of inklings that you were political with more than a little p.

Erm [sighs]

Was there a turning a point?

I think there’s several my yeah I mean I think I’d I suppose I have little little staging posts in my you know as I look back through my life you know I can I can you know I can go back to the very first awareness of politics and I remember erm I was about five or six and and the Conservatives had just won it was the day after the election and erm my mum was would normally as parents do call you and get you out of bed. I remember she was in a really foil mood that morning and I discovered later it was because Margret Thatcher was had had come into power that was one thing I was like ‘oh okay’ so I there was sides of debate and then people didn’t always fall on one you know people didn’t always the world out there was split along different views erm that was my first inkling. My second inkling probably was a little later it was around erm around as I mentioned around the stuff around the hunger strikes and the sort of feeling around my parents at the time. Erm there is something I mean I am…it’s kind of going off on a tangent but it is quite relevant really I think to Kind of what what made me who I am aswell erm around that time my mum was an alcoholic at the time she was she had a period of probably four or five years erm from I guess the early 80’s onwards erm were she had a real drink problem erm and and she she actually erm she was really upset on the the on the evening that Bobby Sands they one of the hunger strikers erm he died and she actually erm phoned from her own house of course she phoned the police and she made erm a bomb hoax all she was out of her mind erm joke and upset and emotional and anyway she made and there was me and her in the room and I remember it being made and I was like ‘on my god’ I knew I knew that was kind of wrong you know I knew that there would be implications and there would be trouble but erm didn’t quite you know was very sacred and a few hours later, it only took a few hours erm erm I was outside it was the middle of summer and the police came along and er they took her away and I was like #oh my goodness what’s going on?’ and my dad was trying to make the best of it and explain it away as she had been mugged a few months before and they said oh it’s to do with her being mugged and she’s got to go and answer some questions and I wanted to believe but I didn’t really believe it

And how old were you then?

So I would have been about erm I would have been eight I think at the time so so that would have been that would have been a big thing really and erm again its sort of it made me sort of put me a little bit like really thinking about you know not just about stuff as the outside world but things come and actually touch you can come and touch you aswell if you take an action or a good action or a bad action you know there are consequences. So so that’s that erm.

How long was she away for?

Well no she wasn’t erm I mean in the end it kind of turned in fine it was you know completely different period were she got she she was taken away questioned and erm she was released and she got er she ended up with a fine I think as simple as that a few months later would have been completely different had that taken place today but

Yeah really

There you go erm but yeah that’s going off a little bit of a digression but erm I suppose I remember the next the next things I remember very clearly were erm minor strike and it was something that seemed to go on for ever.

Hmm

Erm and it you know it didn’t really touch me living in London although I did plenty of collections out on the street but I did I did have a deep feeling that there was something really unjust about it going. I couldn’t quite couldn’t quite put my finger on it [coughs] and

So was it erm were you aware of it though media or or through your parents or through I mean what was your main?

It was just through media I think the kind of erm there was a lot of a lot of my learning really came from erm it was you know a traditional thing of well for some families of you know the T.V being on in the corner and just people watching it and my dad was a sort of avid news follower so he’s a you know I kind of didn’t in the days of three or four channel T.V you just followed what dad watched so I saw the news a lot more than a child wants to watch the news but I’d watch it follow it and and actually take a lot of interest in it you know on particular story’s and you know seeing that most evening of the week you you do kind of follow it and its yeah for a child it just felt like it gone on for ten years or something it just felt forever

Hmm

But you could kind of yeah really really severe it was just literally unfair that was the only paparticulation I could make of it things weren’t quite things weren’t right and I already had a sense that you know Margaret Thatcher was really bad and just a bad person

[Laughs] and that was the sense in the household as well?

That was the sense in the household you know just just you sort of knew which side you were on I suppose erm you know I guess how it feels looking back on it I I maybe I couldn’t of you know being put on the sport at the time I’d be interested to know what I thought but that’s how I can how I can analyse it now years later

Hmm

Erm but I suppose that I just I just probably I mean there’s a couple of other points I can remember so things like they they I remember the Battle of the Beanfield on the television where erm the travellers at Stonehenge were attacked on erm on their way to sort XXXX and erm I just I just remember sort of getting sort of media images picture of sort of burned out buses and and people talking about kind of erm what had happened really

What year was the Battle of the Beanfield?

Erm that was 80 hold on a minute….

I should know that

84 actually I think its 84 yeah

Yeah

I I always mix 84 and 85 but because it kind of crosses over with miners strike. I can remember those two instances sort of carouselling around each other

Hmm

But I forget which you know

So did you see them as did you kind of relate the two in anyway?

Erm not what not at all aside from the fact that I saw on both occasions I mean the media images of the time were of police either carting away travellers or carting away miners I suppose so there was a sort of sense that erm you know if you do things you know if if you I don’t know if you stand up for things you might get arrested

[Laughs]

Or might you might need to do something erm but yeah it I was probably eleven or twelve at the time of these of these things so it was all quite you know undeveloped or immature sort of way relating to it erm

And what was I I what was the what was the general what the sort of wider political feeling about I mean obviously I am think it’s well documented what the wider political feeling around the miners strike was but I am just sort of wondering what the what the wider sense around the Battle of the Beanfield and that kind of because that feels like the very beginnings of what was to become essentially Claremont Road

Erm honestly I don’t know because I never really met or got a chance to talk to anyone else about it at the time erm

Was the media did the media reporting of bias in either direction? Can you remember this is quite detailed if you couldn’t remember?

No one of my abiding memory is I think I saw it it was probably breakfast television or something er kind of one morning erm that the morning after it happened and yeah I just felt this sense that it things I can’t remember bias or you know of the media particularly I remember you know I sort of trusted the media as a sort of impartial erm delivery system really you know erm I I watched and I think I just interpreted for myself the fact that it had been really unfair erm that the police had come and been heavy handed and they you know XXXX was sort of hundreds and hundreds of cops looked like and I just thought ‘well that looks pretty severe to stop people going to Stonehenge’ really

[Laughs]

So yeah erm you know I can you can see it now looking back and having having some knowledge years later of of of of the birth of what became some of the sort of you know social movements ten years later maybe erm you you can see some of things for sure you know I am sure we’ll come onto that at some point. Erm shall I continue through?

Continue through yeah continue through

So erm probably I think I mean for me it’s the there was two things that that came together around erm my my mid-teens or early-teens and that was a kind of erm sort of getting into kinda of counter-culture sort of punk music or ska music or whatever else erm it was I think probably very fortunate living in where I did in in North London and there was like fantastic just cultural opportunities to go and see music bands erm you know there’s a venue no longer there just recently demolished actually but but erm for many it’s been a venue in Finsbury Park called The George Robey which was it was basically a pub with a big back room but there were the most I mean some really incredible sort of you know nights out I guess but the thing about it wasn’t just sort of bands and things I mean these were sort of these were cultural events and political events because they were always there were fundraisers for things or just generally information evening or whatever and so while you might go along for the music there’d always be kind of stall with information erm about things coming up whether it be a political march or or a some something else it sort of came together with I was you know fitted it focused and gave some direction to where I felt I was probably headed it kind of felt it felt the right community that I wanted to be in a sort just a general a sense of erm we all hated the Tories we all wanted to do things differently you know still trying to work out what that meant you know erm and obviously disagreed with your version and…

Did they? Was there a…did they at that age in those early beginnings was there a sense of there being lots of jostling around political positions?

Well I think I would say political positions is probably too erm…to make it too complex of a thing it was just a real sense I suppose it was more around there was probably a real battle between people who are more spiritual kind of hippy side of things erm and people who are more political and they wanted to get out and do actions and there was tension between those two categories really a sort of inward focus spiritual side of things or an outward focus kick it over change it sort of thing. And erm I probably I I vacillated between both I I enjoyed I both things both were great erm and you know it really depended who you met and talked to you know it didn’t they weren’t mutually exclusive either of course erm although for some people they were erm so its kind of interesting interesting to see that there was kind of tension between what felt to me just this great community of lovely kind and sharing people that wanted to change things erm the idea that they might have sort of there’s a whole spectrum of of views and philosophies maybe going so it might be it might be sort of XXXX on one end to kind of anarchies on the other end and a whole set of things in-between erm getting there so I’ve I’ve found that interesting and confusing you know not quite knowing where I were I fitted on the spectrum you know, not you know not questioning that I should there be a spectrum of anything I felt no this where I should be I want to be somewhere on this path here erm that’s still trying to work out what it felt you know where I felt comfortable with it.

So can you talk me through at all any of these any of your erm engagements with different points on the spectrum? [laughs]

God it’s getting very er…

This is I mean you it’s a while ago so don’t

No no no its

Don’t feel like you have to answer the questions or if there irrelevant then we can just move on,

No its fine

I am just interested in

Erm erm I think I’ve I was always quite if I look at it I probably did want to change things erm quite a lot and I saw I saw some real erm fun to be had really to be honest as well. Erm being involved with with changing things erm my first I remember my first erm had this really you know the moment that that Thatcher resigned was just amazing I went I remember going away and writing and poem and about it the first poem I attempted erm just really inspired that she had gone erm I just [gasps] ‘brilliant the world will change’ erm

Can you remember the poem?

Erm

Obviously not

Sadly not no no erm and I lost it was in a book of stuff I used to write, long since gone. But erm its you know it was done but I had a very you know I hadn’t really develop anything I thought well you know the Tories are bad and I’d never experienced what a Labour government would be like but my my parents were lifelong Labour voters. So I thought well that’s that probably you know they take contrary positions to the Tory’s erm that should be you know hope for a Labour government really erm the big thing I guess the thing that changed things quite a lot for me really erm was erm the pole tax that that was a real big thing it it came along at a time when I was kind of fifteen sixteen you know the pole tax campaign started around that time and I yeah it was it came at a point in time were I was actually ready t actually develop you know talk and politics and you know you go into sixth form or something like that and you talk you know you talk to your peers about things and started to have some heated arguments discussions about stuff erm and yeah I it was a really erm really interesting thing it was everybody seemed against it I didn’t know anybody who thought it was a good idea and the community charge you know it was the only the only equivalent thing I can I can compare it with would probably be the you know the build up to the first anti-war demonstration in Iraq in 2003 something it just felt like everybody in the world thought it was wrong erm being 15 or 16 was quite quite you know just amazing thing you just felt like you were you were part of a social wave that was going to wash things away and erm so I didn’t really have any involvement in the campaign as such I wasn’t at the stage of wanting to join things but I followed things and I went along to the erm there was a big demonstration in Islington a little while before the big march in central London and there was a bit of a riot near the town hall and I found that just like ‘oh my god are people are really really angry’ that sort of you know I kind of watched from afar and just kinda taken a back a little bit by it erm you know inspired I guess that people sort of had were wanting to just not meekly go and you know they meant it I suppose and they really did want to stop it like I I I felt it needed to be stopped and I thought ‘oh my god people do’ erm but yeah the for me the moment it was the pole tax demonstration in London it was the first erm the first major demonstration I went on erm and erm I thought it was great I thought you know there probably a quarter of a million people and I thought wow . Then I went along to the next demonstration erm which was some kind of animal rights thing about three months later and it was about a hundred people [laughs]

[Laughs]

Devastating I thought every demonstration was about a quarter of a million people I just you know I thought ‘cool politics is great’

[Laughs]

You get you you fill the streets with battalions of people and it wasn’t like that really erm oh yes its erm but

Where you with erm where you with a groups of friends when you went to then pole tax demonstration?

Yeah I was erm there was two or three of us erm and erm yeah what I think was my girlfriend at the time and I we went a long really you know kind of yeah part of a big demonstration and it was fantastic erm we got we kinda got separated from each other during towards towards the end when it started it stopped being a march and started to being kind of [gasps] becoming a riot sort of pushing and shoving with the police and then people started throwing things and the usual kind of as you know many of demonstrations see often is the these thigs start that way but we we got separated with sort police police horse charging down the road and people running in various directions so I got I got separated by myself I was my friends erm and my girlfriend got they got I I went off in one direction they went off in another [mumbles] but their group also got split aswell and I didn’t probably about…half an hour an hour I you know I didn’t erm I didn’t see them but by the time I came back or rather when I saw them erm a bit later I’d my girlfriend had sort of been hit with by a policeman with kind of sticks and stuff and I mean I got away scott-free really erm but I found that they had sort of my girlfriend and someone she was with had been kind of pretty badly hit with stuff and they were just trying to get out the way really they were scared they were sixteen like me and didn’t really want to you know be attacked and XXXX. Erm but yeah again I it was apart from being the biggest demonstration I’d ever been on and had been would then be for years to come but erm it was it was also it give me a it showed me that actually police weren’t a sort of benign force for just you know kept the status-quo kept the police actually that they weren’t keeping they they were going on the attack and hitting people that didn’t really deserve to be hit and I found that really really it really pissed me off erm of course I guess erm yeah it was it was really scary really scary not knowing where people were erm or what’s going to happen next or which direction I should go in erm and then you know it sort of it not long after we went home and we didn’t see sort of what went on into the evening were things where the riot kinda continued through central London I think for a few hours beyond that but

Through central London it travelled from Islington?

Sorry no erm I think I effortlessly moved from what a previous demonstration a little while before a much thing at Islington town hall

Ah

To the erm big pole tax march in central London

…The big one sorry yeah sorry sorry

I didn’t I didn’t make that clear enough the break no erm yeah this was that thing Islington was an entirely separate event erm but yeah I think the day later a do later the Sunday morning I saw on T.V the erm I think it was the Shadow Home Office Minister the Labour the guy that was you know not the Tory as it where and he totally condemned everybody practically in the demonstration and I was outraged by that and I thought hold on a minute you know your supposed to be the good guys here and I ‘ve been there and I’ve seen what happened and you should be out there saying the police were awful you know people were hurt but they just didn’t just talking about sort of Lamborghini being torched or whatever happened to be erm so that yeah that really that really got me thinking then I suppose I I I by that point there was I was moving away anyway I guess about thinking about traditional forms of politics and political action and I mean I probably just solidified wherever I was going anyway and said you know Labour or you know we didn’t seem to be any other option really with the Labour Party not going to be this great change if the Tory’s ever do come out of power so I continued really and I got really involved in yeah I guess from that point on inspired by the demonstration haven said all the horrible stuff but it was an amazing day erm I just started to just continue to get in to you know go along to things and sort be a spectator initially but but gradually once you become more involved in stuff and you know had a couple of friends that felt the same way so we’d kind of tag along demonstrations and stuff like that

Erm before we sort of move on into the future and that erm how you got more involved in politics. Just tell me a little about the animal rights demo that you went on next

Hmm

Because that I mean I am just interested in what in what in kind of took you from anti pol tax to animal rights, was it just sort general sense of being on the left or was there particular pull to …

Erm I think there was a certain at the time there a whole sort of bag of political values that that erm mentioned the kind of counter cultural scene I was coming through and you know erm on element apart from wanting to change things by direct action you know there was a big emphasis on vegetarianism or veganism and animal rights erm and things like that and that all erm that all came together erm I I became vegetarian about sixteen and went vegan a little while later. And yeah it just felt that was the next thing coming along it was a erm it was a erm a XXXX day for the XXXX demonstration or something if I can angle it then erm in central London each year so that was the first one I went to well the second then the first was sort of a animal rights demonstration I went on

And aside from being much much smaller did it feel different in any other, did it was the was there sort of atmosphere different from the anti-pole tax ones or did it feel similarly…erm attempt you know did the how did how how was the political?

Erm the pole-tax was people were you know there was lots of erm everyone had you know they probably didn’t they didn’t feel as creative or that that the the sort of level of of tension and really want to believe in you things were going to change pretty much. I think I got that fact that I you know they march was more of a well I dunno if its symbolic but it was you know I understand the section or whatever was not going to be stopped by that march there was a clear sense that it was it was a lobbying exercise really erm

Hmm

But yeah it was it was smaller erm there were placards you know they as all demonstrations do the the usual forms of placards and leaflets and things like this and we went along and I found it interesting I I took every leaflet that someone would gave me and I think I read everyone and sort of sort of sort of looking at the options really seeing what was there and yeah it was at that point it was like. I've I think I was just hoovering up information you know this sort of veracious appetite to find out about things and erm you know these days you go on it will be a search engine or something erm that’s then it would be picking up leaflets or getting given leaflets and reading them and and then you know if there it was a demonstration in the future you may be going or talking about or what have you so it was yeah it was very much just time of me finding out about what I felt to be wrong and and and how I how I felt things to be I think I’d I I probably I mean I know now I was sort of I was sort of working through this sort of erm dichotomy between sort of reform or radical change I think I was in in the various things they you know seeing the Labour people condemn stuff sort of by that point after the pole-tax erm you know seeing that you know the established opposition aren’t going to do anything then I suppose seeing similar things with animal rights movement you stared to see those you know different gradients there as well erm and I started to see well you know people there’s always there’s always a great tension people want to you know erm I pick out where you fall on the the spectrum of of erm of being just a reformer or campaigner or or doing direct action things I suppose people you know attempt to pigeon hole people I guess sit all so. Yeah I was working out for myself were I felt that I fitted I think I’ve said already

Yeah no no no yeah that’s that’s interesting

[Coughs]

Erm and so were you also going on er on protests? Was there erm what’s my question…where there protests that felt much more in the kind of reforming end of spectrum as well as the kind of the pole-tax riot which essentially I imagine was fairly firmly in the radical

Hmmm

Radical change end of the spectrum, were you attending protests that were much more you know kind of erm whatever the word is ‘official’

Yeah yeah I were I didn’t I didn’t…I wasn’t differentiating or deciding whether to attend as protest or not on on whether it was erm official or erm better coordinated or or whatever erm at that point I mean I I would tend to go along with whatever issue I fet strongly about erm whatever was offered up whether it was a erm a small protest somewhere or a a big march in the centre of London erm I mean there wasn’t a…there were clearly there was stuff going on you you could probably go to something every weekend if you wanted to. At that point I mean I wouldn’t say I was I was attending stuff all the you know continually all the time erm you know there were other things as well I I started I mean I think I probably go up the first thing I got quite heavily involved in was erm the animal rights movement and I started to I became hunt saboteur erm and erm I went out a few time erm with the hunt sabs in erm in West London I think they were I joined the hunt saboteur association but didn’t know anybody involved so you sort of wrote off or something to an office and they they got back in contact with you

Oh wow [laughs]

And and gave you and I think they passed your details on to a local group and they’d contact you, we met and went out a few times erm and its probably towards the end of 1992 I guess started in that erm

And was erm did you join the West London group because that was the closest group to you or?

Erm there was I think there was a north London group somewhere erm I don’t quite know where they were based but I think it was case that I I think they’re supposed to contact you I think they didn’t contact me or something but West London did and so I went out with them but you know the groups would always link up anyway so sort of west London and south London would sabs would often go off together as a big group several vans and we would go off too

And where they were were did you tend to go to?

You’d go to I mean there was several hunts around the south east so there was the Essex farers hunt erm which was probably still today was it [mumbles] a bloody scary place to go probably the most violent hunt in the country in terms of saboteurs getting attacked by erm you know erm not huntsman but you know people you know erm people who are connected with the hunt with sticks you know or jumping out at you and attacking you stuff like that. I mean luckily I never got erm never got attacked but I saw a few situations where people did get attacked and the hunts around it was mainly sort of Surrey, Sussex, Essex were the main areas erm so yeah went out a few times again I didn’t go out every Saturday erm with them I was sort of part-timer at that point partially because living in Holloway was a heck of a schlep to get over to erm Hounslow I think they were meeting at one point erm it’s sort of seven in the morning its really tricky to get over erm so yeah I went out a few times

Can you talk me through what a hunt sab would look like from the kind of meeting in the morning and you know through the process?

Sure erm well you would you would all meet at erm an agreed place normally in your urban area of the world so erm we would met up and then the van would come and collect you so whoever had the van would drive along pick you up and you’d hop in the back and erm you’d probably you decided sometimes decide that morning what hunt your going to go to go to but often it would sort of be planned out especially if you were working with other groups you’d a hunt erm and then it would often be a case of erm you would you would turn up either at the erm the stables or were the kennels erm and you might follow the hunt out to where they are going or you might have a sense sometimes people it wasn’t only people who went on erm in the car in the van you know supporters of sabs and stuff or people connected would often go out and [coughs] check you know check if there’s any sort of erm signs there might be a hunt or are their supporters gathering in particular place or erm you know there was lots of established routes but you know erm you’d try and you’d try and intercept them basically that that was the thing

And where you visible to the hunt from the beginning? You were kind of straightforwardly present or was that we keeping yourself hidden to some extent?

No we didn’t we didn’t hide from the hunt I mean you would you’d you’d didn’t always erm you didn’t always see them first of all erm it very depended on where you found yourself erm so you could literally be following the hunt and try to intervene but erm you its you are constantly try to keep up with the dogs aswell because there’s you know there trying to stop the fox being maimed so you you know no point trying to chase a horse. Your keeping up with keeping up with the hounds or trying to keep ahead of the hounds so there was a lot of a lot of running through fields erm and listening out for erm the dogs barking erm often ineffective it really depended it really depended where you were in position to the hut itself I mean if if you were fortunate enough erm there was only a few occasions were we sort of erm you know saw the fox came to one side and we were able to sort of stand in front of the hounds and you’d have horns you’d have own sort of horns, you never quite got the hang of blowing sort of properly

Like hunt horns they were the same?

Bugle things yeah

Yeah

Exactly the same erm and whips sort of homemade whips erm which which the dogs reacted too it was the noise of the whip so if you cracked the whip erm it tended to erm stop the dogs dead they they were trained to to react to to that erm so yeah if you could there was one occasion I mean this wasn’t whilst I was in London I continued this I moved up to the North East to study in ninety three and I got involved with erm hunt saboteur group up there and I was involved with them for a while longer yeah and more regularly involved with them for a while longer. So yeah you would erm…we took the hunt away the pack of hounds away with us for about an hour one afternoon it was a fantastic thing playing the dogs to astonishment and despair of the hunt itself erm but yeah there was there was it was it was you know really I found it really inspiring you know people had obviously worked out the tricks and tactics you know erm laying false trails in the hunt the dogs would follow XXXX rather than a scent f the fox was one thing or erm you know they didn’t want you to go near their dogs in case you sort of rub XXXX into them and just confused the hounds completely and they went around in circles or what have you erm

So that was a tactic?

Yeah yeah if you can intervene directly but often yeah often there were days you didn’t see anything at all because the they had just got off ina completely inaccessible place there were fields and fields and you couldn’t get tyour van around there you know you might have had to run half a mile or something to try and get to where it was and by that point it had moved on so it was all it really was cat and mouse erm some days we were the cat some days we were the mouse erm and it was but great real feeling of camaraderie I guess you travelled around in the back of the van and you you know you just a real sense of you going out onto to erm to do something really good do something humane and erm and try and stop things and actually physically stopping a hunt it was a really really empowering thing you’d stopped the days play and you know for me it wasn’t the same for everyone some people felt this way some people XXXX there was also this sense of ‘oh they’re a bunch of toffs we’ve spoilt their fun as well’ I quite you know they’d make quite freely found that quite a few found the idea that we’d sort of you know they they were a class apart really

And you think there were people that didn’t feel that way [laughs]?

There were well I wouldn’t I mean there were there were it wasn’t people people wouldn’t be there was…one of the tensions again in well within the hunt saboteur scene I guess erm people who were they were concerned about their sort of erm media image I guess and sort from a more campaigning side of things the idea there was already you know the press would happily say that they’re not interested in saving the foxes lives they’re all given a pack lunch by Linda McCartney you know the famous but apparently genuine erm erm Daily Mail story about hunt saboteurs that Linda McCartney packed our lunches erm

Really [laughs]

Yeah funny isn’t it

[Laughs]

Erm that yeah but sorry went off on a tangent but erm no but I think it was yeah people were some people were keen that they should be only be seen to be about erm stopping the foxes and it wasn’t it wasn’t that it was only about some other agenda but the fact is you know we we all wanted to stop the hunt and stop foxes being maimed but it didn’t mean that you can’t just package away your political philosophy and just pull out one thread I mean everything comes into play you you’re a whole persona and if your developing politics in many directions the fact that you know a bunch of enormously privileged members of the aristocracy some of them were obviously a lot weren’t but erm you know would erm you l know on their horses come and long down at your or or threaten you or whatever it happened to be it was there was a real sense of this is us you know this…you know there the upper class and we’re we’re going to spoil their fun for the day I think that you know there was that and I don’t think there’s any I don’t have any problem with that fact quite honestly that’s was there to extent for a lot of us.

And erm so you talked about some er violence from supporters

Yeah

Did there erm was there ever was there clashes between hunters and the sabs?

Erm yeah yup ermmm you know erm people erm sabs that might get hit with erm riding whips or whatever or or or they would you know ride their horses-excuse me- towards you try to scare you off just just generally some of it threatening just just verbal stuff often but erm you know I mean I don’t it would have been even even if we’d wanted to and we never went along with any plan to kind of physically intimidate them or anything else but even if we had gone with a plan like it it would have been suicidal as you know were were a bunch of skinny student looking types and they were big burly sort of farm boys and and people on horse and people on quadbikes erm you know there to see you off so it would have been utterly foolish to try and anything else than just wind them up and spoilt their fun really

Hmm

Erm but yeah there was lots of intimidation from certainly we would we would see say okay having a herd of cows charging towards me because they were being they were being sort of erm chased by the quad bikes towards to kind of get us to scarper which we did

[Laughs]

Erm people being hit by quadbikes or you coming back and you found that your vans been attacked that happened a few times, windows put in or tires let down or whatever it had to be really so plenty of vandalism plenty of the police you know we obviously had a very partial and biased account of things except that you know but there was really there was a genuine feeling that the police turned a blind eye and couldn’t give a toss erm about our complaints if we’d been intimidated because we were trespassing so you know we we deserved it we knew if we didn’t trespass we wouldn’t of got the got the grief I suppose erm so yeah again a sense of that that the police weren’t on our side again sort of came through from that from that experience really

And where were you studying?

I went to study in Sunderland but I lived I lived I stayed there I was there for my first year and erm but I moved further to Newcastle erm because I had most of my friends were in Newcastle at the time and you know a big bunch of those friends were political friends really, people that I developed sort from hunt sabing or from other stuff

Hmm

Going on at the time erm I mean

Sorry go on

I mean probably hmm I it’s quite relevant I think for erm you know for me to talk about it because its kind of its its very much part of what Claremont was about aswell but erm the thing I haven’t mentioned which was erm a present thing at the time was the erm coming of the criminal justice & public order act erm because that galvanised whole section of erm radical whether it was squatters or hunt saboteurs or people that wanted to go to parties erm rave parties or parties put on free festivals put on by you know New Age travellers and communities around the country all those of were seen with a very broad brush were sort of looking to be erm outlawed all those activities and erm certainly part of the part of what we took up the campaign in the North East around the criminal justice act erm as as as sabs but also you know probably we’d take it up on any of those issues as well because I was very sympathetic to all of them and probably did all of them as well at various points erm…and we we we so we started a campaign up there I mean around the country there was a sort of network of erm a kind of a coalition really around different direct action groups around the country em there starting to campaign against the coming in of the act erm

Just erm for the sake of the tape you’re the first person toasts really talked about the criminal justice act, so do you want to can you just give me a bit of a low down on you know

Sure

What it was what it meant

Sure

If that’s that’s…

This is where my memory will be severely challenged I could of recited the XXX in some of the passages of the act at the time but I certainly can’t now erm so from the from the point of hunt sabing it would of it would of made erm trespass which had been up until that point a civil offence a criminal offence erm if erm if your going basically on if your going onto land to disrupt a lawful activity which which hunting was erm in law so it it so yeah that was section sixty nine I think of of the act erm that was the section that affected me particularly erm it also erm it allowed erm amplified music and it was it was lampooned rally you can imagine legislators attempting to because of in law you can’t just say loud music is outlawed because it clearly outlaws much of our culture as a society so erm they legislators tried to attempt to define in words what rave music was and it was a series of repetitive beats I think it was part of the terminology which kind of hilariously if you enjoy going to raves having some stuffy politicians attempt to

[Laughs]

In legalistic terms define what you’re listening to it was just incredibly funny and you know we it was mocked by many people not us lot erm…oh my goodness there’s so much legislation around squatting I can’t remember the particular clauses that affected squatting at the time it may come back to me but but again that’s a community that was under attack and it also imposed restriction on a completely different set of people that was around football fans it was trying to sort of bring in erm stuff around searches and stuff I think erm and just imposing freedom of movement around football fans and trying to account for sort of you know hooliganism and disturbance’s around that time so

So was there any obviously there was lots of solidarity between you know squatters and ravers and sabs and political types but was there any kind of weird alliance then with football fans, did that come?

I think at a at a higher level yes link were made sort of fans groups and stuff like that erm but it was wasn’t it certainly didn’t it didn’t translate into sense that you know you’ve got some your local football fans are going to come along and you’ll demo

[Laughs]

Because quite honestly you know the legislation comes in for most people go about their lives if it doesn’t touch them they don’t see it and its so far down the news agendas its its barely notices quite honestly so I think for those sections it passed through without a great deal of erm protest erm from fans groups really but but it came in none the less. Erm I I mean I had the notoriety of being I was the first person prosecuted under criminal justice act in the country erm at the time erm because we it sort of came into law erm just as the hunting season was about to start in erm 94’ and erm…yeah I think at some sabs in North Hampton had been erm arrested the week before and then the following week we were out at Hexham in Northumberland doing sab and myself and one other person got arrested erm under the criminal justice act and of course that gave our group a great opportunity to get campaigning and what have you sort of did enormous amount if you know not me personally but eh campaign around sort of press work and working around making sure that the court date when it came would have cameras there

Hmm

And stuff like it it made it to the news so

And were you arrested for trespass?

Yes yeah yeah section sixty nine erm which you know I’d been arrested a number of time up until that point it was those things weren’t particularly erm daunting I suppose or whatever you become used to things that of course you get involved in and XXXX up on your rights and erm you get a great sense of solidarity so you know we we we all fully expected to be arrested and we’re fine with it really you know occupational hazard it felt like erm yeah we were but yeah had it been for anything particularly heroic it would have been a better tale but I just made it over a five bar gate and as soon as we saw the hunt come out of cover we ran and I got about two steps before slipping in the mood got grabbed by a heavy and pulled off and arrested and that was the end of my day so

[Laughs]

But there it was it went to court and ern a couple of month in January 95’ I think and you know there was I think at the time probably there was a feeling that you know as when tough legislation come sin there’s always a focus quite rightly on the harsher end of the sentencing you know that you could potentially get I think it was…three months in prison or six months imprisonment for these acts? But no one really expected anything and as it turned out it was a very light sentence I I again I would I it was a conditional discharge and a hundred fifty pounds fine which someone in the public stood up who I never met and said they would pay, a great act of solidarity and just a local villager from Hexham who didn’t like the hunt coming through their back garden every so often so

Excellent

That was wonderful

Hmm

A great experience

And in terms of erm being arrested you you said you saw it as an occupational hazard, did you then did you therefore have a sort standard procedure did you know did you know what you were going to say to the police all of that was it?

Yeah generally

Was it a sort of scripted process that you kind of expected you knew what to expect every stage of the…

It was erm it was I mean you you know generally you knew the offence you would be arrested under because there would be two or three usual offences on any particular day which would just be a public order act offence erm causing alarm harassment or distress or something like that which was essentially catch catch all opportunity to be arrested erm but there very minor offences pretty much and you you know anyone coming in was you got sort full we called it a induction if it was a job but you you got a full induction to what to expect. And you got you got support of people if you were arrested on a demonstration or a hunt whatever you you were never left alone to to worry about what was going to happen you expected and knew there would be people outside waiting for you to come out and sort of going in and go into the custody suit and try and find out information and just generally being a presence and that’s really supportive that’s I found that you know doing it I did more than I experienced it from being arrested erm but I found it yeah it great it allows you the sense that you can carry on doing stuff you know your not left alone and there people come out and do it and there you know there food when you come out if you’d been there a long time and yeah

Hmm

It wasn’t erm but we knew you know I mean pretty much you didn’t expect to ever be questioned and if you were you didn’t really say anything but you had solicitors lined up erm who’d represented you previously probably you and your XXXX and people you knew who would be available or knew to be available on the day of these sort of activities

So you had some sympathetic solicitors that you were working with?

Yeah or so the people that will represent you and and fought half way decent erm I think every every town and city in the country has similar set-ups and always has done as far as I am aware still do today erm firms of solicitors there’s always a big no if you become if you become a political activist and and sort of things your doing you you got a feeling you’ll be a arrested for is there’s there’s it’s a thing that’s always handed down just never trust the duty solicitor because they’re on call there not really it will probably it may well be a paralegal or a someone from a firm you don’t know who’s not who doesn’t really go with your best interests they just do because there rotated to become and represent you there not really interested in erm getting you the best erm representation you can expect from an easy life all so the advice has gone you know there has been occasions I’ve heard its happened they’ve suggested you plead guilty to stuff to speed the process up a little bit, which is being you know it’s kind of terrible advice really erm its not in a client’s best interest to do that so. So yeah we found solicitors who would come and erm give you a proper defence I suppose

Excellent, okay this is 94’

Yup

We’re moving swiftly on towards…erm the M11 [laughs]

Yes we are yeah

Link road era erm is it a reasonable time to ask now how you kind of first came aware of that campaign or are there other things you want to talk about before we get onto that?

No that’s absolutely I think it’s sort of all coming together really erm the first [shuffling in background] I think the first campaign about a road I became aware of was XXXX around 1990 so its sort of going back a few years between you know from your mid to late teens and early twenties it it sort of my learning and experience accelerated at such a rate of three years is like a massive a massive leap from where I was then to sort of how I felt that time later but erm I yeah I became aware of XXXX erm I can’t remember how I became aware of that actually erm I don’t recall seeing anything second hand about it I think I possibly found some press cuttings in the library or something about and studying or what have you I can’t remember. But I do I think the first thing I remember of it was seeing a photograph of a group of people erm erm the XXXX tribe or people who were supporting them they were campaigning against the erm extension of the M3 through Hampshire erm the Winchester Bypass which would of again one of these things which would cut about three minutes off excuse me or about eight minutes off the journey time from London to Southampton. But actually cut through erm massive amounts of sites scientific interest and erm heritage sights and erm you know sort of long barrows and you know burial grounds of early civilisation so that was all being sort of chiselled about for this so erm yeah I remember a photograph of of the it was sort of direct action thing they were around a digger erm formed a circle with their hands they’d erm they had sort of erm plastic pipes over their arms , probably the first time I seen a kind of lock-on as it were people were sort of they may have just been holding hands at that point erm in the pipes so they couldn’t be pulled apart they they had pipes over their arms which I thought was I thought wow what an amazing tactic that makes sense. Erm I went down a little while later erm so this was before Claremont erm just for a couple of weekends me and a couple of friends hitched out to Winchester to find out what it was all about and and meet these people and find out what XXXX was and remember being really impressed with erm just what they were doing but also the fact that you know they had a kind of they they provided for all their own needs you know they were cooking and living outdoors and self-supporting I just found it really inspiring er thing to be doing and you know not going away just sort of living there for an indefinite amount of time so

And were they on the site that was proposed to be bulldozed?

Yeah they were yeah and at various places over time and so as the work went on it moved along erm but I didn’t have a great deal of involvement at that point bar a few XXXX as I say [coughs] the next erm one I can remember was and I didn’t go to this but I think this was just before going to Claremont I my intention had been I really wanted to go down To Oxleas Wood it’s just south of the river erm which has a like a eight thousand year old ancient small patch of ancient woodland which was threatened erm I can’t remember by what probably another road erm never got there I was living in Newcastle at the time so I I was following what was going on there erm but finding clearly I was tried to study as well as be political and the studying took a back seat for most of my degree it would have to be said but erm…Yeah I really wanted I was involved with Oxleas I wanted to be involved with Oxleas but but never got the chance to erm but then I heard about the M11 erm I think I was it would probably be erm when would it have been? Spring or no probably when was it? I am getting my times mixed up actually let me work it out…it must have been around the summer of 93’…spring or summer of 93’ erm and I found about the campaign against the M11 link road. That’s right erm one of my friends erm he first went along, he went up to Wanstead to the big oak tree Wanstead Common erm and came back and told me all about it erm and that was being lifting and and for a I wasn’t around at that point very much, I did go down to see it erm but he he would come back and tell me much more about what was going on doing there and I I was thrilled by it I thought ‘that’s fantastic’ I am going to make sure that I go down erm the next time there’s a big action going on there erm so I think I went down before before I went down to spend erm sometime living there I went to a few larger actions that I’d heard about erm

At Wanstead or at?

Erm along the route [sighs] I am trying to I can’t remember erm [gets out of chair] bare with me. As you do go rooting for a couple of bits

Ahhh

I couldn’t find erm I couldn’t find stuff actually [flicking of paper] erm I’ve lost a lot of stuff over the time. So looking at a map trying to get my whereabouts

[Laughs]

So George Green was were the oak was erm so I think I the one I can remember erm that came a little time later after the oak had gone erm I am getting my chronology mixed up because I remember spending some time down it it might just been a day down at the oak erm it was after the they put a letter box onto the tree while someone was living there and there kind of a campaign to get it registered as an address because that would give, it confers certain rights so they couldn’t just chuck someone out of the three if it can be sort of deignated as a residence that would give erm some some erm complication to a victim and erm the day that a postman delivered a letter to a tree was a big day because I think I think it became case law or something erm [hesitates] it go it made trickier erm I I can’t remember what that revolved around but the effectively as I said it it was a fact that a letter had been delivered and that was enough I think a judge had rule that erm that that granted the people living in the tree some rights of residence because erm someone had taken to write them a letter there and it had been delivered.

Do you know whose idea that was?

Erm I have no idea at all, I wasn’t involved with the campaign at the time and erm yeah I others I others may well remember or or erm who sent the letter or thought about it

Hmm

But but yeah it was a good a good ideas that worked for a while, but it didn’t work forever. Erm where was I? So…

Well we were just talking about where you attended actions along the along the route in-between Leyton and Wanstead I guess.

Yeah erm

Or or Redbridge roundabout Green Man roundabout?

Yeah there was I am trying to I am just trying to place actions in the chronology erm of kind of before I moved to the North East and after living up there because most of the actions I can remember were from a period of time I was living down there by which point erm the sort of Wanstead end was very much flattened so with XXXX moved into kind of 94’ by this point in time

So where you there when the erm eviction of the tree happened?

I wasn’t there at the eviction erm

Or the flattening?

Post post eviction was when it was still a site erm so this would have been 94’ I remember I remember taking part in actions along the route at Wanstead erm on several occasions erm and that involved you know I mean the boarding’s were up around the site and erm you know because they had been invaded many times over there was sort of barbed wire up that you know that was all very easy to get over with a roll of carpet and being bunked up by everybody so we could all get over and just invade the site and run around for a bit and try and get onto cranes and differs and what have you and just stop work. Cement pools or whatever it happened to be erm so yeah erm I was involved in yes so along this section I think erm where there was it was progressing at a pace erm the map I am looking at isn’t a very good map I have to say but I am trying to remember there was another camp erm of people probably about fifteen or twenty pole I am not sure if it was Bush Wood…somewhere along the route between here and there that that was under threat

So between George Green and Leytonstone Leytonstonia?

That’s right sorry yeah erm and it was a period I mean every along along the whole section between sort of Leyton and Wanstead erm there were bits of work going on so certain I am assuming it will be simply because erm you know some of the people some of the houses were erm the owners had erm decided to sell before you know erm what some stayed put others moved out at an early stage, those who had moved out at an early stage I guess those houses were were erm taken down by much early but that allowed erm the squatting of those spaces and putting up of of benders and tarps and structures to live in having fires erm and small kitchens and things around the route so

So that was that was this that was around here?

It was yeah

Around around kind of Green Man roundabout?

That’s right

Or was that all the way down to Claremont Road?

Well there were

So I’ve I mean I read about the bender side quite a lot but I am not entirely…where there was that happening?

There were a couple of places now I am the map I am looking at isn’t great but and my recollection because of all I see now is a motorway rather than the road layout but from here there’s Cathall Road you turned erm you turned right on to Cathall Road from Grove Green road and you walked over a tube line, so the tube line was running kind easterly from Leyton towards Wanstead so you went over it you walked over Cathall Road went over a tube the Central Line tube and you continued on erm on a little bit and then my memory begins to fade I am trying to think I am looking at a very partial map

Hmm

And I can’t place where erm I never I never lived there but re-visited quite a lot and erm…I over the sort of the summer and you know you you would you would go along the route erm whether it was to an action or just to hang out or to see who was bout at any particular time and so I remember spending a little bit of time on the route before whilst Claremont was thriving erm going to some of the other sights erm yeah I wish I could remember locate exactly where it was.

No it’s alright that’s alright that’s fine. Erm sorry you never do do do ergh you did say you just said you never lived at Claremont is that right?

I did

You did? Sorry

Well I didn’t live on Claremont Road I lived around the corner so Grove Green Road erm was the road that erm ran parallel to Claremont

Hmm

It was a long road from from Leytonstone

Hmm

And I continued on down to Leyton erm it was a main road and Claremont was like a residential street erm of probably about two hundred metres two hundred and fifty metres in length that ran parallel erm with Grove Green Road so Grove Green Road was also being erm erm demolished or at least one side of it was being demolished erm and that would of that would have erm that was so that was essentially the section before Claremont. So I lived in a little erm house on Grove Green Road that was erm that was squatted erm…yeah during that summer

Erm the summer of ninety…

94’

94’

Yes

Yeah okay so you’d been a few times and at some and where were you at your in your university career at that point?

I was in my first year

You were still in your first year okay fine erm so you just moved down for the summer holidays?

Erm well a little bit before the summer holidays so again abended what I was doing I think probably came down around ermmm end of mid-May end of May and I stayed stayed through until erm early October I think that was the period that I spent down there and didn’t really yeah didn’t really move from so that that was the you know that was the period where I’ve got my you know my most of my knowledge and awareness

Hmm

And memories from the M11 link road campaign

So what was it that erm inspired I mean why did you why did you decided to move down ultimately after having visited a few times

Erm it was just it I found it to a be an incredibly inspirational campaign erm that people had taken over houses that were going to be bulldozed and they occupied those houses and they were trying to prevent a road being developed through East London brining its pollution noise and danger and everything else with it erm I found that you know the thing I think what I found was the most inspirational thing was the community that had been created because of it erm

Did you know them? Did you know those people at that point or?

I probably friends with several people who’d been going along to it friends friends in London I wasn’t friends with particularly with erm people living on Claremont Road or people fully part of the campaign you know I was it more sort of a wider periphery of supporters

Hmm

Like minds friends that would come along I mean for all the residents erm on Claremont Road Grove Green Road and all the other sections up to Wanstead all the people that were squatting it erm there was a much wider periphery of daily visitors supporters erm local residents who weren’t affected would along so there was like a very large it felt like a very large community of support

Hmm

Outside of just the people living day to day on that route erm and it was yeah I found it my first visit was yeah I just found it it it was pretty fully developed at that point in time you know the whole of the road was occupied by by squatters erm Dolly erm who had been living there all her life erm I suppose effectively became a squatter in her own home

I suppose she did yeah

Erm

So er just just again for the sake of the tape do you just want to clarify how she became a squatter in her own home? What that means?

Yes she’d she’d erm she’d been born on Claremont Road erm lived her whole life on Claremont Road and erm at the point where erm the M11 link road erm project came into being then the government looked to compulsory purchase the houses on the route from those who hadn’t moved out already erm Dolly refused to move

How old was she?

She was ninety three at that point in time yeah I think she was born in yeah 1900 or something or 1901 or what have you I can’t remember for certain. But yeah she she lived there her whole life so the houses probably weren’t a great deal older than she was herself erm she became she became a figurehead of the campaign, she was you know she was a 93 year old woman so you know she frail and didn’t always come out very often erm but she would be you’d you’d normally see her every day, she never ventured out into the road as far as I can remember erm she would only come as far as erm the gates her front gate on the road and sort of stand there hang out there erm and just just chat with her new neighbours.

[Laughs]

Erm people she you know she erm I had I had a number conversations with her but I didn’t get to know her very well, I really wish I had of spent some longer periods talking to her to find out more about her erm other people had that great opportunity to do that and then in and and tell you things that she had said and how she felt and erm but she talked about the neighbourliness for instance of living on the road now erm about how you know erm clearly there’s a sort of you know you kinda of you you as a political activist you never really expect favourable media coverage erm and er in this respect it was exactly the same thing you you you see the narratives before they are written almost a bunch of squatters moving in erm doing stuff that’s illegal like squatting or blocking road or whatever and then to have someone like Dolly erm give a counter narrative so when asked and say ‘no no these people are lovely they bring they bring me food they they talk to me they spend the time of day with me I’d never experienced so much friendship’ all those lovely things it was you know it the road itself became a beacon for the kind of community the kind of society that I feel we all wanted really on a wider level it became it as I say a beacon of how to do things now it was a Victorian street and and quite apart from the fact that the houses were some of them were probably falling down by themselves before they were being knocked down but I mean they were erm you know it was it was an art space it was all sort of things that you know that were try to design a community design a psychical space erm it had all the elements that I I would love to see in a physical space and it had erm including you know being able to erm that included socialising and and you know people being able to live in one space get a long you know there was art spaces there was stage for music there was there was two cafes on the street when I say cafes these were these were run by squatters living on the street they were activists who running the café so it was we understood we had to re-produce ourselves we had to feed ourselves we had to erm provide emotional support and everything else. Erm there were clothes rails of of erm second hand or donated clothes erm the people erm many many sort of you know day to day you know the sort of things you need to reproduce your physical needs where a lot of that was provided erm food so the kitchens produced communal meals for people a lot of our food was probably skipped that being that [coughs] meaning that it was it was taken erm probably food from supermarket bins erm passed its sell-by-date so it was taken and generally speaking erm completely eatable and yeah it was

[Pause in Tape]

And I was just going to ask was it vegan was it entirely vegan?

No it wasn’t erm it was normally vegetarian erm there would be occasional disagreements when someone had found some skipped eat or something. I remember a couple of erm discussion being had about whether or not people should be providing that in the café but I don’t there was never any great erm tensions round it I think I think it was felt that erm you know most people well I don’t known actually I didn’t do a poll I got the sense that most people were vegetarian erm but there was no no real line on it and certainly erm issues erm around diet that had with each other but general it was provided for the widest possible bunch of people so you produced vegan food and maybe other things to put on if you wanted cheese or whatever

Erm and just going back to Dolly briefly was she instantly sympathetic and pleased with her new neighbours or do you know if there was any kind of process?

Well I am only really going on what others have said because erm when I arrived in 94’ to be in the road the community was already established then and so Dolly had a period of time I guess getting to adjust it erm from what I can remember saying it’s you know it’s a massive change erm it took her a while to adjust to it and probably she erm yeah as you may well be your whole the road you’ve known all your life from all you’re your neighbours disappearing and the houses around you becoming empty and then and then these new people arriving and neve haven met them or understanding them or what they might be like I am I think she did say she was she was initially weary erm I recall her saying either seeing her been interviewed and saying it or did the did someone say but she said she’d been she had been a lifelong Tory voter up until that point up until the road was threatened with demolition and then well she didn’t say anything about you know what came after except to say you know in the same sort of paragraph that that you know as a way of defending all her new neighbours that these are some the nicest she’d met and and then went on to aspoice the kind of things they were doing

And that’s fascinating I didn’t know she was a Tory voter

Supposedly

Supposedly

Yeah Yeah

Wow so did her politics change or did she just was it a sort of purely personal?

I don’t know

…Thing

I don’t know I don’t you know to what extent politics she thought about politics full stop erm beyond saying what he kind of you know voting history had been

Hmm

Erm couldn’t say really

Okay erm I wonder if we can just talk about briefly about other characters in the area at the time, the kind of key figures on and around Claremont be they activists or other residents. Can you who who were the sort of people that really stick out in your mind?

Well the other one you mentioned a little earlier perhaps before the recorder but but Mich old Mich was was was a another well he was the character of the campaign really he lived at the end of Claremont Road erm he yeah erm he was in his mid-fifties I guess at the time or late fifties erm and he was he apart from anything he was just the most incredibly athletic guy for a man of his age he erm those were in our teens or early twenties were just amazed how he would you know erm Claremont Road one of the thing about it erm was erm there was a ground level erm but there was also sort of aerial level of netting across between the trees across the road erm the Claremont Road fate there was only houses one side the road erm faced the Central Line tube erm on on the other side of the road erm next to the fence there was lines of trees and erm yeah netting between the houses and the trees and whenever sort of evictions in the offing or what have you so for instance when either end of the road erm was under threat one way of getting across to occupied houses if you were would be across the nets or one way of trying to stop the demolition by being suspended in nets and I I can remember him walking across the nets as he might crossing the crossing the road or something

[Laughs]

You know he didn’t really he’d he’d walk across sometime initially at least on his feet, most of might think he was thirty feet above the ground you might be on all fours walking across a net, he seemed to of managed it perhaps he had a life in circus but he managed to kind of I can remember him walking across on several occasions on his feet perhaps before going down on his hands. Erm strong guy I remember him giving the demolition squads he would be pain he they they they didn’t like him at all because he I think probably it was quite easy for some of the people erm you know people working on the campaign like the security guards and they erm demolition squads and and just the contractors and stuff erm easy for them to see this bunch of other people with funny looking hair and funny looking clothes and see them as somehow different as a bunch of outsiders who didn’t really have any sense of erm

Shall I just do you want to carry on talking? I am just going to sort out the coffee

So people that didn’t really you know they saw they saw us all as slightly different and I found but Mick on the other hand you never a working class guy erm [kettle boils in background] really strong cockney accent who had you know he done his national service and he he knew you know he kind of you know someone who had the same accents and you know for some people who had lived in the same area as those people who are kind of erm working on the sight as demolition or security or something he knew how to talk to them in ways that some of the rest of us didn’t you know that would actually make them feel really guilty about what they were doing erm I you know I couldn’t try to paraphrase it just it wouldn’t have the potency or the delivery of of of of the way he did it you know he but he would just lambast them from top of the house saying ‘these people there the future your in the past, your world is dead look this these people’ you know and it would just the would do that for ages for like a hour he would be just talking to them and you know it was erm yeah it was a bit like a warfare for your ears it would be kind of

There’s that amazing sample isn’t there in there’s a erm XXXX

Yes

Ask and that’s Mick speaking

That Mick

Yeah

Yeah its they were there’s erm I mean there’s probably widely available video at the time unfortunately not enough capturing Mich at his best erm just little snippets of him erm but yeah he people differed a lot to Mick big big there was respect because he lived on the road erm

So he was a resident before

Yeah

Is that right? He wasn’t an incoming

No as far as I that’s how I’ve always understood it yeah he lived there before. So it was from what I can work out Mick and Dolly were the two last residents on the street erm Mick fell into the campaign I mean the difference in the act he was a resident there that carried a lot of he stayed respectful of the fact of his experience just you know his life experience and and just respect that he was he meant what he said and you know there was a you know we can all sometimes you know watching out for other people’s feeling like you know not say what we mean to say or be slightly polite and not get the point across Mich didn’t bother about any of that he just if he was annoyed about something or he just say things straight you know and there’d be meetings on the street you know were as you do you need street meetings to work out the practicalities of living together or planning actions or to discuss intentions or work things out well Mick was fully part of those and would you now he wouldn’t he wold say what was on his mind and sometimes that would annoy people sometimes disagreed with him erm but it was all open for challenge you know he didn’t see I don’t think he saw himself as in control of anything particularly I think he he gave you know it was a he understood that politically we didn’t believe really er that it was about us all having an equal say in what we did and he understood that I think and respected that and he was also furciferous and you know made sure his point come across very well very eloquent sometimes

So he what he didn’t have a history of activism he had a he had a kind of life history

Yeah I don’t think I don’t others others knew him better might might might be able to clarify that but my understanding of Mick was that he you know he came to it from living on the street and what he discovered by the community had settled around him really and come to join them ermm…I mean you know there was there were other characters hopefully people I suppose erm people like Paul XXXX who erm I heard about Paul because simply because he was a fantastic climber, I think he’d been that’s what he did whatever as a hobby or you know some of a form but he’d he was a great climber and some of the more erm not naming Paul as being necessarily instrumental particularly but you know some of the more erm the actions requiring erm some skill to get up diggers or trees or whatever else at great speed or great dexterity he would be there and you know erm it was one those skills shared he was really great in making sure other people knew what they were doing erm so Mick and erm Paul were two of the people that had got up onto Parliament for the rooftop demo for instance erm at the point

Do you want to talk a little bit about that action?

Yeah I I wasn’t I’d gone back up to Newcastle I think that point in time I think temporarily I’d gone back up but but there was erm I think I can’t remember very much about it aside from the fact I managed to scale the fences at erm Palace of Westminster and got themselves up onto parliament and they had put a little like banner drop at Parliament which was erm it certainly got people talking about the security at parliament but it put it in the spotlight erm it was always erm there was always a question of how to get how to keep Claremont in the public eye so you know

And why was that important?

Because it was a long campaign and erm it needed there was you know I think quite rightly people erm I was never involved in the know the machinery of the campaign so much just being a erm a willing participant and and squatter and whatever in events so I would I would fully take part in or be in street meetings or stuff but in terms of the strategy of the overall campaign and what was being done wasn’t something I was er involved with really erm but the you know being you know there was two strands you had to physically stop the road which is what we were doing on a day to day basis but you need to keep things in the public eye there was a whole lobbying and and there was other you know groups around it like Transport 2000 I think they were called at the time erm so yeah the strategy of campaigning and lobbying and erm getting you know MP’s and various other people to raise questions well getting MP’s to raise questions in Parliament or or generally getting it talked about in the media yeah that was we needed to do it and as I say find new ways to do it so whether it was going down to the top Department of Transport to do a erm trying tan office occupation and a banner drop for instance that was one one thing we did that summer erm

Was that where you involved in that?

Well I was not on the drop itself again that was probably a dozen people or so managed to get in there was probably about a hundred and fifty of us or so set off with them or rather they went ahead and we went down to erm be around the bottom and to cause confusion and to generally be supportive we we all got on the tube at Leyton and piled through the ticket barriers got on the tube travelled down got off at St James’s I think walked up to Victoria erm and yeah there there was scaffolding outside the building so I think people were able to scale it easily and and get in there erm and yeah we hung around the bottom and some people talked to the press and some people just sang songs chanted whatever erm

Can you remember that a particular focus of this project in theory is the history of music, protest music and song and chants so can you remember any of the chants or songs that were sung?

Goodness me

Might be a big ask

I’d love to be able to erm my memory is that the well there must have been the songs were written people actually put pen to paper and and did produce stuff erm I my memories of the music at the time wee it was people were signing suff that was already you know famous protest songs and things like that

Like what?

Well sort of Bob Dylan or don’t know who some of quite you know some of great some of it wasn’t so great erm I’d love to be able to come up with some or remember some to sign but I am afraid non spring to mind

That’s alright maybe something will at some point

Yeah

[Laughs]

I mean just in terms of the music I mentioned there was a stage set up it was a sort of back of lorry erm in the middle of Claremont Road and they’d you know throughout the summer of 94’ at least there was there was like a Sunday evening session music session which would generally be erm acoustic music or just erm just acapella singing with your voice and an occasionally erm some bands would come down and play erm fairly quite amplified music erm and that was great and that was their own stuff erm so erm a bunch of an Australian band who came own they were erm some erm similar people of a similar bunch of guys they had a band called Mutiny erm some of his music I’ve got on tape that they would of played at the road if erm if you wish to hear any of their music if it’s got relevance

Hmmm yeah definitely

You can hear what some of the stuff they were singing at the time erm yeah I am sure I can I can think of people who may of payed but yeah

Okay I am aware of time so I am just wondering the best thing to focus on is erm maybe you can talk a little bit just the daily life of Claremont Road and just try and give me a sense of what Claremont Road was like as a place to live erm

Yeah erm…I mean day to day erm so we I lived on a house in Grove Green Road there were two houses knocked together and squatted and painted and there was probably about a dozen of us living there and of course the two houses erm we…we got you know you get up in the morning and you hang out for a bit and then you would then venture down the road erm it it really did depend if you knew something big on the agenda that day so you you may know it maybe a day when you knew there was an action of offing so more than a bunch of you would go off where it might be maybe erm you know er a hundred or something like there was a big action planned you’d be focused around getting to that action erm

And did that were actions taking place you know every day every week or month?

There would have been actions pretty much actions every day erm of different sizes when I say actions I mean people would people wouldn’t necessarily wait to plan an action with others erm people were we all felt this we felt ownership over what we were doing over the campaign and there wasn’t a sense of we waited for an action to be called by someone else and we would just turn up erm three or four of you might decide ‘shall we do an action?’ ‘yeah’ did you see the sight you know further up the road there’s only security guard on it today lets go in and do that one erm and you’d just go and do that and you might do it for an hour or two hours what have you and and have a bit of fun. A lot of times the police didn’t pay much attention because their resources were diverted elsewhere erm or they just didn’t have resources at all if it was a small enough scale they often they might send someone along in a car to have a look and go away again or something erm

So what did that entail those those kind of small actions?

Erm it would be erm it be you might try and get onto a crane or digger you might try and disrupt a cement our which might be a few of you but basically were there were they they were more crucial actions petty strategic ones I mean if you’ve if you’ve got say they were laying the foundations of a road if your on a sight that’s being cleared and prepared and they’re starting to put down some foundation or other kind of works erm if you can stop a large cement mixer from erm from working erm you have completely scuppered the operation because he cement has to be poured once I kind of ready or clearly it will start to harden erm if you don’t so so people erm it I’ve found one of the most scary things actually was watching people, you’d climb up basically if if anyone can imagine a cement mixer you sort of you got that obviously very large egg shaped mixer on the back of the lorry and the right at the end the tip of it at the back is where erm the cement will come out. Well people there’s a ladder up to the top there and a little sort of erm human size whole that cements poured out of well people would often climb up to the top of the ladder and sort of top of a ladder and sort of not quite get into the mixer but get sufficiently near to the hole for everyone safety they had to stop er stop work erm I mean they were tremendous erm actions when they took place they didn’t need that many people to do

Hmm

If you could get someone up there on to it the trick was getting into the site and getting as far as the mixer things like cement pours people got security got very wise to it I think and they you know after the first few you know would be on it and try to make sure they were really heavily secured

Hmm

Erm they they would be locking onto erm so for instance with like hydraulic erm stuff he’s what I remember Mich doing would be to he would get onto you de-lock yourself on to the hydraulics of a cherry picker crane for instance erm no they have to…

Around the neck or?

Erm yeah I can remember him doing it around the neck and I do remember one particular time they the driver erm really freaking out because erm I didn’t realise at the time and I still don’t if it true or whether he was just saying to try and get him to de-lock but we wanted them t cherry picker erm and Mick had de-locked himself to the kind hydraulic pipes the apex of the of were the two sort of arms are erm he climbed up it he walked up the length of got onto the vehicle climbed walked up it an and cherry pick a erm de-locked himself to to to the pivot

He was kind of laying the length of one arm

Yes

And then de-locked?

Yeah erm

Terrifying

The guy driving it said if he turned off the cherry picker that the hydraulics would then erm you know the compressed air would come out and the thing would then start to come down and that would that would probably kill the person who was de-locked so he was you know clearly worried about it erm

The driver not Mick?

The driver no Mich maybe knew better erm Mick had probably done this dozen of times already but Mick did outwardly display any fear at all about this kind of stuff erm but yeah I mean people could de-lock themselves it could be it could be something you didn’t need didn’t particularly need equipment you could have a whole mix you know there’s a whole range of types of action from very mild disruption so sitting in the road if you knew stuff was coming down and you could be fairly easily moved on by the society to choose kind of actions were you would stop a cement pourer or or get onto a cherry picker or or climb aboard a digger or something and work would have to stop a real range of things. As I say I mean the day to day thing could be a large action were more planned events were taking place or something were a bunch of friends would decide to do an action. Erm on element which I remember being never present through the summer was the whole tension around lunch hours, so this was this whole thing of this this sense of erm people need to be doing stuff not just coming to kind of smoke weed or get drunk or whatever I mean people there was a kinda of concern in the campaign that erm for all the positive aspects it was attracting in people, people were coming from around the world and particularly around Europe other activists in Germany France whoever would come into join and we lived with a couple of German guys for instance who’d come over too they heard about it and just wanted to be part of it they came to join the campaign for a little bit erm people were coming…there was also it attracted who about the parties or maybe on a Sunday or something and they came down for a party and liked it and decided to stay or decided to keep coming bac and they didn’t have a great deal of interest in keeping it self-sustaining so in terms of didn’t have a great interest in contributing to the up keep or taking part in the action they would just like to hang out in the ambience of the thing. So there would there was a tension around how to deal with that you know people didn’t want to police people people kind of understood that look you know its first of all we all have down time erm but we also we don’t necessarily have to police how choose to hang out but equally people coming along it’s a bit of drain of resources and it was also a wider undertaking that we that we got which was you know for all of our wonderful community living in this kind of island of you know not tranquillity but you know this self-supporting place we’d face each other and erm food as by contribution only and and whatever else we looked out for each it attracted people who had acute needs out there whether they were dependency problems or mental health problems or whatever else you know wider society was looking after people these people and you know people were gravitating to us because frankly we were the only people down there that would actually look out for them or pay them attention or live with them kind of you know erm but that brought it owns tensions I mean we we the folks that campaign shouldn’t we wouldn’t of been we weren’t there for social work either you know to be very hard headed about it it had a you know the plan was to stop a road being built and we couldn’t lose the focus on that either.

So how was that tension managed?

Erm well it was not managed very well often erm sometimes resulted in arguments people you know Mich get frustrated as well erm he’d have it out with people and so you know people weren’t pulling their weight or whatever that that would lead to tension about well is it right that we you know we try to morally force people take part in action there was we were all I think it was you know there was a big age range of people and a big set of experiences erm being quit young and inexperience’s myself I found it I found it difficult to [sighs] to quite know how to deal with it myself you know how I could see that I didn’t like the idea there’s a strong moral compulsion to make people do things but equally I could see that it was taking away from the resources and the energy people had an I didn’t want to that to go either I really battled XXXX erm I think people we we just you know we just got on with stuff people let stuff go erm erm…I mean it kinda expected that went on to a certain extent rally erm we were never going to try to you now force people to do stuff or erm guilt tip them or whatever. I am sure I am sure there was a little bit of that went on an individual level though so

And in terms of you’ve talked about the café and the ways in which you had t be self-sufficient and look after yourself what about kinda of emotional needs you did say we had to look out for each other’s emotional needs. But I was wondering was that was there a kind of were there structures for supporting and you know and things like burnout or emotional the emotional stress of that level active political protest?

I didn’t I don’t so much about structures I think there was probably an awareness erm, How did it manifest itself? I mean it was it was on a more practical level people just kind of looked out and got an if you living with people all the time you get a sense if someone’s getting to the end of their tether

Hmm

And you know it would just be about you know sitting down with someone as a friend and you know you know counselling all that happened to be sometimes we’d sometimes things would flair up in a meeting where someone’s done something and there’s a big discussion about it and you know we all try to I think it was nice meetings were good outlets for erm tensions to come also frustrations about maybe what people were doing or or it might have been ore sort of political like I really don’t think we should of said that or done that you know who gave you the permission to say hat on T.V or or something.

Hmm

Much more mundane things like you know lunching it or or someone was tears the other day did know one notice or look out for them or whatever erm one I me one vene springs to mind which summed summed up the social the solidarity for me was erm er a guy called Barney who lived down the campaign for a bit erm really camp guy overly camp guy kind of brilliant persona really funny guy er, he erm he was started getting when when at the end of Claremont Road when thee erm when three houses at the far end of Claremont Road were were taken and demolished there was a building site down at the bottom there so we would go down to the sight every so often anyway this particular end of the sight Barney got some homophobic abuse I think one night from some of the night shifter security down there and he was quite devastated by it all and er weee all discovered the next day what had happened

What had happened?

I think it was more more sort of name calling really erm just making him feel you know really kind of er it was kind of of look they’re on our street this our street I can’t just I am not you know I feel really like it’s like they’ve come into my house kind of thing and started abusing me you felt you felt there wasn’t many people around and I think he felt quite intimidated and quit you know just ab bit like you know you can’t say that to me you know it just really not on. I mean I don’t think it didn’t come to anything physical it was just words

Hmm

But he was she was pretty hurt but it all

Hmm

Erm he quickly got over it but you know it was erm we went to it was kind of very brief discussion we all all the men agreed that we would go down on on I think it must have been towards the end of the week, Saturday was coming up and we just you know erm we all decided to raid the clothes rail and and dressed up various women’s clothes and stuff dresses and to to you know just real kind of ostentatious stuff so all the men dressed up as women and went down and kind of gave a bit of made the security squirm rally, we went down with Barney and just we all just pumped it up really but loads of were down there and people you know were terrible put on bad makeup and whatever else it just felt like one thing you know it was just saying to Barney and anyone else really that known one can get can be singled out for intimidation or erm just being mean to without the rest kind of coming down ad saying those people that’s really not on so yeah it was just a really lovely gesture of solidarity that we had a great fun party out of it aswell

And was Barney there did he?

I think Barney yeah Barney was down there yeah so yeah that summed up a nice occasion

How’re we doing?

Its kind of kind of time I think erm

Its time okay

You have a few more minutes to round off any bits so

I just wanted can I just ask the final question I mean it could this obviously this could be a huge question but if you can just maybe sum the erm impact that Claremont Roads had on the rest of your life? [laughs]

Oh an easy one

[Laughs]

Erm

What are the kind of legacy is that period for your life he can just say that in a sentence [laughs]?

No I I think I ca because it’s as well not a sentence but erm…it showed me how amazingly and creative and imaginative political change can be erm after that after that kind of period erm of you know the next few years going towards the late nineties erm in a number of respects politics became pretty boring and mundane and fairly formulaic erm for me in terms some of the stuff I was involved in erm and I think probably I mean it really I think I realised pretty quickly that any you know trying to change whatever it is your trying to change it needs to be it needs to be about erm aww. I said I could try and some it up let me see, it needs to involve the whole self you know if you if you can erm if you can you can change minds by just by by demonstrating there no I say demonstrating I don’t mean in terms of a demonstration I mean in terms of showing people how alternatives erm it was I found that for it to be sorry I am incoherent

No its fine

…Okay so I suppose about you know I think if there one thing it showed me is you know diversity of tactics in terms of what you do that you know if your going to change you need to have the most employ any and every form of tactic if you like and every everything needs to be allowed and everyone needs to be accommodated if your going to change you know the world and change minds erm everyone needs to be involved in that and there was no sort of clearer erm example of everyone being involved and and many tactics being employed and all voices being and you know Claremont and the M11 link road so I think that’s that’s really I can’t think of a more intense intensely erm interesting period were I learned so much in such a short time from that period an d seeing so much ingenuity about how to stop what we might call progress in invert comers erm taking place all the elective mind working out clever tactical ways whether its digging tunnels or you know putting you had into cement so it hardens you can’t get take off a house or or somebody incredibly imaginative barricades erm all to all to stop you know to prevent communities being devastated yeah I think I just found it the most amazing time

Great okay thank you every so much

No worries

I am going to turn it off unless you have any final words

Er don’t think so

Okay

Thank you

[End]

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Dermot Morrow

Project: Voices of Leytonstonia

Date of interview: 11/11/15

Language: English

Venue: Interviewee’s Home

Name of interviewer: Polly Rodgers

Length of interview: 2:06:33

Transcribed by: Joshua Adams

Archive Ref: 2015_esch_VoLe_09

Archive Reference: 2015_esch_VoLe_10

Archive Reference: 2015_esch_VoLe_10

Interviewer

Interviewee

[Microphone shuffling] okay so er first of all can you just tell me your full name please?

It’s Paul White

And can you spell that?

Er White

White?

Like the colour

Yeah w-h-i-t-e for some reason we just have to spell even if it’s a completely obvious thing we just spell it all in case the person who’s transcribing doesn’t speak English or something [laughs] well that obviously wouldn’t happen but yeah er and can you tell me your date of birth?

14^th of August 1978

Brilliant, okay so to start with maybe can you just tell me a little bit about your parents?

My parents? Erm…Joanna Ford and Richard White erm both of them from sort of East London way Chingford and Barkingside originally erm neither of them live in London anymore my parents erm they got married in seventy seven and divorced in eighty seven I think it was erm my Father was oh until he retired a underground train driver erm he did that for his entire working life minus a couple of years in his late teens. He was apprenticed as a guard in when he was fifteen erm moved up to be a driver and stayed a driver for the rest of er rest of his career. Erm my mum was a housewife I suppose erm who about the sort of time my parents got divorced she went back and studied erm worked her way up to having a Masters in Psychology erm and since then did little bit of all sorts of stuff. She’s done academic research and she ran a family support project in in Lincolnshire were she moved to fifteen years ago now she’s retired aswell [chair squeaking] erm lets have a look my dad’s from a very big East London family he’s the second of seven eight I could probably count them all erm we’re all fairly well estranged in our family these days. We kinda saw a lot of each when we were young so I’ve got many many uncles and aunts and cousins erm including numerous cousins I’ve never actually met erm so on and of course spread out across the United Kingdom and Ireland these days. Erm my mum is one of three erm her sister her younger sister actually used to live in a house around the back here erm on St Marys Rd and so I know this little bit very well because erm my cousins lived there er they were close when we were kids.

Hmm

Erm not sure what else I can tell you really

So where where your parents living when you came along?

Oh well erm that was Gants Hill cheers about sort a mile a mile and a half from here erm when they bought a house there when they got married or just before they got married erm and I lived there throughout my entire life until moving out at eighteen erm my Mother moved out of London all together maybe twelve thirteen years ago and now is in Lincolnshire so you know I had eighteen years in Redbridge erm and sort lived around the area as well for another sort of five or six so

Hmm okay so can you erm can you tell me what your kind of earliest memory is of living in this area? [microphone banging]

Erm that’s quite a good question erm I suppose for Ilford in particular a very early memory I’ve got is it must have been maybe sort of nine and I’d er taken my younger brother to Ilford to go to the shops which meant walking through the park erm and this before this actually before the big shopping was there now and I was at WHSmith on the High Rd were the shopping centre is now and erm at some point in that shop I lost my little brother which was obviously not a very good thing so I went off to where we agreed to meet if we got separated and I waited there for a very very very long time getting more and more upset erm until my grandma finally showed and what had happened was my brother had gone home on his own and everyone was ‘where’s Paul?’ and er after a little while he said XXX she was the only one who had a car so she could drive up to Ilford [laughing]

Oh no

And erm come and find and I was just standing there absolutely er you know mortified

Yeah

[Laughs]

How old were you?

I was probably about nine

And how old would your brother would have been?

Six

[Gasps] scary so he managed to find his way home by himself?

He’s always been like that [laughs] he used to go out on the something to do he’d just buy a travel card and go out on the buses and what not [laughs]

Wow

Yeah he went he oh he went all over London god knows I mean it was erm they’re were quite a lot of difficult time when were young and we were kind of a sort of semi feral really erm my mum was very depressed and my dad even before they got divorced worked shifts so we only ever saw him for a few hours

Hmm

You know every third week or so and so yeah we kind of left we wanted a lot of the time and so from a certain age once you’ve kind come come up here all the time you know I guess because we did have mobiles or anything like that then you just kinda got on with it you know and my dad when he was a child would play bombsites and you know [laughs] bunk a train to erm Southend and what not so they didn’t really think much of cycling to Ilford

Hmm

It wasn’t a scary prospect

And so what did that what did that mean to you? What was your childhood like?

Erm [squeaking chair] well at the time it seemed fairly normal I guess erm but didn’t have a lot to compare it to I had kind of looking back on it now I sort of I struggle to see our childhood as anything more sort of the cycling project sort of three generations of dysfunction so [laughs] you know my both my parents very sort of disturbed…depressed damaged by their own upbringings ermmm and the same goes for at least three if not all four of my grandparents all kind of XXXX violent of neglectful or you know otherwise traumatic upbringings and it just kind of cycled down you know my dad kept his emotions and feelings so far close inside of him erm as a result of his upbringing erm you know both of my grandparents completely separately were in Claybury Asylum probably around the same time bizarrely erm…

Where’s that?

Er it’s not there anymore it was er Claybury is down towards Woodford

Okay

And there was one of the… there used to be a big ring of mental hospitals around London maybe twelve or thirteen of them and they were all closed up in the eighties erm under sort of sold off for development and stuff so they’re not there anymore but yeah

So which which of your grandparents?

Both of them

On…

Sorry both of my grandfathers on…

…On both sides

Yeah so both of them about the same sort of time would have been in erm you know in hospital for depression anxiety stuff like that so [slurps drink] erm both of my parents grew up in…environments that weren’t really conducive to sort of happy lives I guess

Hmm

Erm which is very sad

Yeah

Sad indeed erm but you know my childhood was sort of seemed normal enough you know erm that was kind of a emotionally a little bit sort of rough shot my mum was very depressed, I don’t think she would even admit it now really erm my dad was you know just just didn’t want to…not really there erm and being quite a large family always loads and loads of kids around and stuff like that and so we just sort of got on with it really didn’t you know sort of poor but not on the breadline at the time and you know it all seemed fairly normal

Where you aware of your parents erm emotional kind of states?

No not at all

No?

Not at all I mean they just just our parents that’s just how it was erm it wasn’t until much much later when looking back on things and you know with an adult perspective that everything seemed you know that’s er you know when my parents split up my mum became very very very depressed for a few years and that was sort of a period of quite we’re quite feral and we had very very little money but you know we were just living off of child benefit and

You were living with you mother at that time?

Yes yeah

When when they [inaudible]

Yes my dad kind of was being an arsehole about maintenance and things like that erm so we didn’t have a lot of money until erm things started to pick up and my mum had finished her studying and what not…erm you know kind of yeah grew up in sort of physical poverty I guess around my sort of early adolescence erm and yeah

What was the house you were living in like? Where where where you living when your parents separated? Do do do you stay in the house you were living in when your dad left?

Yes we did yes my dad moved out and lived er lived in a succession kind of first of all depressing like bedsits and he moved in with various of his siblings for a little while erm. We kind of moved around a bit until buying a flat in XXXX. Erm so we stayed in er the family home as it where which is erm Gnats Hill quite a nice nice house you know back in the days when a young married couple could afford to buy a three-bedroomed terraced house in only zone four [laughs] it’s just phenomenal to think of now that you know they borrowed a little bit of money from my grandad and and er that was why they got married because erm my grandad my dad’s father insisted they married so if my dad had an accident and died my mum would be liable for the money they the money they borrowed off of him.

[Sighs]

So that’s that’s my father’s father and that’s basically the story that some him up most of all erm [drinks] so yeah we stayed there and erm in the house gradually sort of fell apart around us because nobody was very good at looking after the place, my mum was quite depressed and was she didn’t really believe in the whole housewife thing anyway erm so and we sort of [laughs] it was like the embarrassing house on the street you know [laughs] lots of furniture in the front garden and paint peeling and things like that erm er

And did you find it did you find it embarrassing?

I didn’t my erm I’ve got two brothers the middle one Dave who’s the one who loves travelling he didn’t bring and friends back at all erm I look back now and I realise he was you know very embarrassed about the way he lived and erm he spent a lot of time emotional effort on not replicating that which is very good you know he’s done very well erm my myself I didn’t really care whether this kind of didn’t bother me you know [laughs] I couldn’t understand why people lived in nice clean houses anyway [laughs] so you know it was alright we had loads…if you’ve got loads of children and dogs and cats and god knows what else running around the place you could either sort of choose to spend you entire life running around everything trying to thing clean or you can just say well you know do it as and when erm you know some of friends took the piss but most of them were it was very er hands off parenting so as I got older my house was sort of the place where everybody came around after school to smoke weed and drink larger erm my mum just kind of rolled her eyes and what so it was that sort of environment you know

But it was your house people would go to because that’s where it was allowed

Yeah because it was you know liberal and you know erm and I kind of realise now my mum kind of felt helpless about it you know she was trying to be a cool parent of anything like that she just didn’t really know what to do about it she didn’t want to drive me away through you know excessive sort of discipline and you know never encouraged towards discipline at all erm I guess I guess my mum didn’t really have much self-discipline herself she never had been encouraged to do anything until you know she was kind of parents were like don’t bother going to school there no point you know and er so she was like didn’t really have a lot of self-belief you know

Erm

And that sort of went into her parenting a lot of erm but at the time it seemed cool like ‘yeah’ it was nice to have people around and what not and er have my mum as the cool parent but later on I kind of realised now it was very unhealthy for me it was very unhealthy for her and you know didn’t help either of about sort various mental health stuff so…that’s kind of [chair squeaking] I guess I’ve started losing my trail a little bit now so [laughs]

It’s alright erm you were you were also just saying about your there were three three brothers

Yes two brothers I’ve got

Is that…so you had three in total including you?

Yeah

And your oldest?

Yup

And then there’s?

There’s my my brother Dave

Dave

He’s three years younger than me and my brother Mike is three years younger than him

Okay

So erm you know not amazingly close but we are friends if you know what I mean

Hmm

We don’t sort of hang out but we get on when we do see each other

Hmm

Erm once a year [laughs] for a get together and that’s you know I that’s just kind of how its ended up really it was sort of it was quite a traumatic upbringing…once you get kind of past it and I think erm I guess once of the things we’ve learnt is sort of hands off relationships with each other erm my dad’s side of the family are very hands on and what that’s meant is that they all hate each other because nobody can stay out of each other’s business erm so my dad has no longer speaks to any of his siblings and there was another another brother out of the eight or nine who no longer disappeared he and his family just moved and left no forwarding address no forwarding telephone number and he went in the nineties and one of my dad’s sisters has been ostracised by everybody because she’s mentally ill and recently I heard that another one is now ostracised by everybody who’s left I don’t I think there’s only four of them left who still talk to each other for apparently being like doing something awful to their mum so you know family is over the last sort of fifty years gradually exploded

Hmm

Because nobody can keep their face out of anybody’s else’s business

So that’s been something you’ve tried not to…

[Puts down cup] I’ve observed from a distance erm I because the family is quite well spread out and my parents divorced I saw less and less of his side of the family erm and when I did see them we didn’t always get on very well erm many of them are have [laughs] quite significant differences to me let’s say er

Do you want to say any more about that?

Well [laughs] you know a couple of XXXX are quite right wing and erm I am quite left wing and that doesn’t really bode very well very good sort of family catch ups it’s a little better now when we see people. I think who knows and it’s a bit different sort of having an argument with a growing man as it is to having an argument with an eighteen year old

Hmm

You know and I I age has mellowed some people and many of the others so you’ve they’ve just gone there not you know not part of the family anymore, so that’s the sort of environment my dad grew up in erm his her he’s got a younger erm couple of siblings who were put into a orphanage one time when my erm grandparents couldn’t afford to keep them anymore so they dropped two of their kids off at an orphanage and went away for six months and then came back one day and picked them up because they had more money and that was it there were no discussion there was no visiting there was no nothing erm to me that seems like a horrendously abusive thing to do you know way way above the sort of the very typical of the time like physical beatings and what not that went on just emotional neglect and I never really understood why they had so many children I mean they didn’t seem to particularly like them so much you know erm…we’ll never find out erm yeah so you know that’s that’s the sort of family dynamic and I guess that erm some people done better than others out of it…and it had its effect on my parents and on myself and my brothers

And and back to you and your childhood

Hmm

What was erm what was your school time like? Where you did you go to school locally?

Well I went I liked school when I was like to er junior school erm I was fairly bright erm and there was a sort of I guess there was a sort of feeling amongst my family you know that I was quite a bright child and I was going to do very well and so I just kind of you know I was sort one of the better one in the school and was years ahead in reading and stuff like that so its kinds of a bit of a breeze really…I got plenty of praise and you know and would often be sent to go and read and study in the library on my own or with the other clever kids so that the teacher could spend more time with the kids who weren’t ahead and that was nice you could go and read read whatever you wanted to read and things like that erm so I enjoyed that but erm

Erm

Oh

Just to let you know I’ve just noticed the battery is gone down very quickly so erm I am just going to pause this

Yeah

[Microphone shuffling]

Okay

Right yes

Continuation

So yeah

Yeah

Yeah infant and junior school was all very good you know I was happy enough erm I enjoyed it I don’t remember having any sort of significant bad experiences at school but then at secondary school I hated erm I I was there for seven years in the end and I probably hated every minute of it erm I you know struggled to make friend in the first couple of years and was bullied not sort of terribly I know people who went through much much worse but you know I kind of delicate little soul me and I took it all to heart and erm I I just hated it I hated all the kids I hated the bloody teachers for the most part erm I was kind of in a lot of lessons I was sort of marked out as a bit of a trouble maker but I wasn’t all I was just miles away day dreaming you know erm I used to love English was my subject when I was like at school I used to love infant school junior school I used to love writing and reading but erm you know when I was at secondary school as far as everybody was concerned I didn’t do any work that’s because the bloody books were I had read that sort of stuff six years ago you know I could get through they’d hand out text book the the reading books and it was at a reading age so far below me you know so I just there and doodled and got a reputation for making trouble and was dropped down…dropped down over the year until the third year when my English teacher was kind of handing out the school books back and he said to ‘Paul whats all that drawing on your book all those kind of scratchy little things?’ and I said ‘ah it’s from the Lord of the Rings’ you know I had written in Elven Ruins sort of stuff around my book and he said ‘you read the Lord of the Rings?’ and I was like ‘two or three times’ ‘what are you doing in my classes?’ you know and then from that point on in picked up a bit in terms of lessons you I look back and I realise I was sort of being set extra work you know he would kinda lend me a book ‘oh you should go and read this and bring it back next week’ and what not because you know kinda missed out on that erm so you know that was sort of alright erm everything else I couldn’t really be bothered with untoward sort of I guess after about sort of the third of fourth year I started skipping school a lot more didn’t like it erm and you know other things kind of came up drink and weed and rock music [laughs] erm and you know my mum at that sort of time was working it was very easy just to not get out of bed in the morning you know sometimes if I had to I used to occasionally bunk off and go and sit in the library all day [laughs] and read work my way through the shelves and what not which is kind of bunking of school to go to the library

[Laughs]

That happened a few times erm I guess I could never really be bothered with it you know erm

What were you doing when you were bunking off when you weren’t in the library?

I’d just sit at home you know read books it’s all I ever did really erm yeah listen to music I can’t really remember what I got up to. It’s like a sort of age sort of age between being a kid and playing with things and being a grown up and not playing with things you know thinking that you shouldn’t I don’t remember what I did I didn’t have any hobby’s after puberty really you know all hobbies were babyish I didn’t play sports erm

Did you have hobbies before you were?

Yeah all kids did you know and I was a little when I was very little I liked to have toy cars which I run over them with a big truck and then…Transformers that was always very into Transformers and Dinosaurs like all children are you know if you asked me when I was eight what I wanted to do when I grow up I would say ‘ I want to be a palaeontologist’ and all the adults around me would be like ‘I don’t even know what that means well done’ pat pat sort of thing erm you know [laughs] I used to show off by explaining like what things Latin things mean because I had a dinosaur book and they had the names in Latin and translated into English and stuff you know and like my family thought that was brilliant

Hmmm

You know so I imagine they all thought I was very clever but never lived up to it academically

And you think that was just because they they didn’t recognise your cleverness at secondary school and you kind of got got put into that box?

They they didn’t have time to recognise anyone’s cleverness there was no gifted and talented scheme for identifying kids at some might have benefited from erm you know there was just a few most kids who were disruptive caused trouble and they needed to be looked after but a kid like me who you know just wanted to read book and like draw pictures of monsters you know there’s not really anything it was just I wasn’t making trouble you know?

Hmmm

Erm you couldn’t get away with it at school these days er just not doing any work and showing up as and when you feel like

And do you did your mum know you were staying at home a lot of the time?

Hmmm not really no erm my grandma used to come in every lunch time to feed the dogs erm you know you can’t really leave the dogs come in feed them let them out again and stuff my family very in to dogs lots and lots of dogs erm and you know I would be at home and so that was she’s coming in at lunch time and I’d hide so she didn’t know I was there erm and I got caught out once because I was still in bed and the dogs had come up and lay on the bed and stuff and er shut the door behind them gone to sleep and so when erm my grandma got there the dogs bounded up to see her and were scrabbling at the door and what not and I opened it and she’s like ‘oh you r in are you could of phoned me’ and what not and while your home and obviously got back to my mum but what could she do really, don’t bunk of school and I was like ‘alright I won’t bunk off school anymore’ you know erm at one point my erm er er I was bunking of school and a phone call came through from erm my head of year at the time you know I just waited for it to be recorded on the answer phone and I deleted it straight away yeah you could get away with it a lot more I guess in the in the early nineties I suppose but they don’t you know doesn’t teach you a while back you couldn’t couldn’t get away with it that way and my little brother was at the same sort of age erm he was eventually asked to leave at sixth form college because he was doing the same thing but you know six years later they couldn’t have somebody there who wasn’t going to pass the exams because it affects their lead tables so he went off and didn’t really do anything else for a few years erm yeah so I didn’t really like school very much erm I didn’t really didn’t like most of the people I was at school with erm

So who were your…did who were your friends were you were you did you have friends? Did you have many friends at secondary school?

Erm the first couple of years I was there I had like one or two friends and I was always like the fall-guy of the group and so I wasn’t happy you know like it’s not fun having people who only keep you around because they want somebody to like take the piss out of or to sort of bellower down than them erm I started making friends a bit more kind of time around we started doing out GCSE’s because I realised I kind of learnt to be a bit of a joker you know and realise you can get away with things a bit more if your sort of being quiet and not answering you know and trying to keep your head in the book if your sort of take the piss back and what not and you know I made friends who I still kind of occasionally don’t see now and again but he’s somewhere else but apart from that you know from whole school years I’ve got there’s three people I was at school with that I am still friends with now on Facebook and that’s [laughs] you know that’s it because I just didn’t like any of them really. I tried to fit in especially later on you know and I was sort of being a bit of a joker you know and stuff but I never really very good at it erm we didn’t share values and what not erm so I sort of flitted mostly from social group to social group you know and I never really felt like I fit in so erm I mean that’s probably I years later being diagnosed with personality disorder which kind of sort of fits you know exactly that sort of thing erm but I never really never really managed to make any good friends at school so I didn’t really enjoy that very much at all

Hmmm and I guess the reason I was asking about friends because I am interested in how started getting involved in politics and

Hmmm I think the thing for me erm I was brought up erm Christian and while that didn’t last I kind of I got this whole thing about right and wrong and I got that very heavily that’s the sort of the thing I picked up and you know as I kind of sort of adolescent and I started paying attention to world events and stuff I couldn’t really I couldn’t help but keep perceiving that’s things were wrong you know this is not this is not right that this should happen you know and if you just think well something that is wrong is something that causes people more harm and good it does and something that is right is something that you know creates more happiness than it does harm and you know and that’s sort of simplistic but [church bell ringing] that’s kind of what drew me into it I kind of just had this strong idea about what was right and what was wrong

Hmmm

And erm that’s yeah what led me to sort of politics and I didn’t sort of decided one day that I was you know going to be an activist or anything like that I wouldn’t even call myself an activist now to be honest, it doesn’t fit I am just kind of doing stuff but it just seemed to me you know as I learnt about various things that the government was doing a lot of bad things.

Can you remember sort of specifically what the events were that were initially

….Hmmm

Objectionable to you?

I guess erm the important things that led me into it was animal rights especially erm I mentioned before I kind of grew up in a house full of dogs my mums mother was er a dog breeder er posh kennel club dog breeder rather than a puppy farmer and I grew up surrounded my dogs erm there was always at least two in the house I grew up in my grandma had seven eight erm at pretty much any given time er she’s got four at the moment and she can barely walk [laughs] so that’s sometimes with litters at one point with puppies in the house there was over twenty or thirty twenty five twenty six dogs in my grandma’s house erm but you know there was like eight to twelve at any given time and so I kind of grew up around dogs if I you know its kind of a bit of a running joke between my girlfriend and myself you know about it I see the world through like a XXXX member of a pack than as a human being does you know that very true in a lot of way you know erm and yeah I was always sort of bleeding heart about animals er can’t stand to see them hurt and that sort of I was vegetarian on and off from about the age of eight until I was thirteen when finally stopped eating meat for good and I haven’t gone back since you and I extended that from not just you don’t hurt your pets you don’t hurt any animals and I was very you know very into animal rights and there was a lot of animal rights stuff going on when I was twelve or thirteen live animal exports stuff like that erm there was a lot of things in the news about it and erm and a lot of talk as well about the hunting that was going on, there was a strong campaign to ban in in ninety two ninety three and erm its not that I was I involved in any of them but I was you know I was very interested in it and that sort of led me vaguely into sort of environmentalism and so I was reading about in the newspapers and stuff [chair squeaking] erm and yeah I guess from the environmentalism I became interested in the road stuff erm

So did you who who were the first environmentalists that you kinda came into contact with?

Oh gosh, I couldn’t really give you any names

I I don’t mean name particularly more just like, what was the scene…

Oh oh I had read about lots of this in the newspaper you know and I read a lot erm so I had almost certainly read books about animal rights by that stage and sort of environmental ethics and things like that I couldn’t really tell you what it was I’d read there was all sorts of amateur philosophy and things like that erm you know it was years before I could read the strong stuff [laughs] but you know and I kind of I read a lot of newspapers I spent a lot of time in the local library reading newspapers and periodicals and things and you know so I knew what was going on in Leytonstone and I remember as a child maybe probably wasn’t that young even because it hadn’t been going that long but I remember going past Claremont Rd on the Tube erm we went everywhere by Tube in our Family because my dad was a train driver so we all got cheap tickets and it was brilliant something called a privilege ticket and I had that right up through being a student and you it was basically like a pound to go anywhere

Wow

It was like you literally could go and I got of got a train to York of Glasgow for a pound so that was wonderful little thing and you know you could get like yeah so a pound travel card and go anywhere so it was brilliant. So we went everywhere by tube and erm that because we lived in Gants Hill on the Central Line every time went into London or what not went past Claremont Rd and it was all sort of gradually getting more and more painted up and there was more and more sort of graffiti and murals and things painted on the walls of houses that that faced onto the tracks and you know that’s really fascinating stuff for a kid like the just it seemed so colourful and what not and I kinda of I put two and two together and connected these people to environmental movement it kind of felt like I wanted to go down and join erm but I was very, very very sort of socially awkward and anxious

How old were you at the time?

Well the first time I went down there it was probably ninety ninety three I imagine, I had first I went on my first demo in October ninety three erm so probably would have been sort spring ninety ninety three and I would have been coming up fifteen I think…yes

Yeah

Erm you know and I was tried to be brave sort of went [laughs] I had on some cut-off cut-off jeans short and a Rage Against the Machine t-shirt and off I went to to Claremont Rd and like I was absolutely shitting myself because I didn’t I didn’t know what to expect I didn’t have any preconceptions about so sort of I kind of imagined it to be like a sort of professional operation and I would go down there and I be introduced to people what and you know and something something amazing would happen. But kinda what happened it I went down there and nobody paid me any sort of attention what so ever and I went into the office house and said hello and some sort of I can’t really remember it very well I asked you know I put my name down on a mailing list erm and was told about the phone tree erm which was a system we had back then if it was going to be evicted they would call maybe twenty numbers and each of those twenty people had twenty numbers to phone themselves and each of would spiral out so that in the pre-internet day and mobile days you could get your message spread very very quickly erm it was a very good system got my got my number put on that erm put my name on their mailing list and on the er reclaim the streets mailing list erm which had just literally just started making reclaim the streets and having having my name on that mailing list then I am certain has caused me all manner of jip at passport control in America since then but I can’t be sure [laughs] so there you go whenever they put my passport through they look angry and then I am off to the random check section there you go erm because you know America the American government designated reclaim the streets as a terrorist organisation in the nineties

Did they?

They did they did

Hmmm

So I imagine that it the reason why I get trouble at passport control in America erm because we know they police gathering intelligence from the mailing list you know everybody on that mailing list had been named in eviction orders later on and various things. So anyway I said you know what you know what do we want to do and er and they were just like ‘walk along if you see a crane jump on it’ I was like ‘oh right okay’ [laughs] and I was so wet behind the ears I was kind of walking down the the kind of the I suppose it was Grove Green Rd and it was all sort of boarded up everywhere and I was like ‘do I climb over one of these? What if there’s security’ so you know ‘how do I get in?’ I didn’t realise people would even just barrelled over or that there were boards you could push aside and door that says ‘welcome come in here’ you know and where there were gates they had security on them so I was ‘oh okay’

And your by yourself?

I was by myself yeah cause I didn’t have any friends that would come down with me nobody…you know no body was interested in that sort of thing erm yeah I don’t think I don’t think I probably even asked anybody it would seem pretty pointless to the few friends I did have erm and you know I at one point saw a crane with a couple of people sitting on it and I just shouted ‘do you need any help?’ and they shouted back ‘no’ and I said ‘oh’ and carried on walking and I got to Leytonstone Station and I was like ‘well there you go’ and went home again and that was kind of that was sort of my my introduction as it were

So erm so you walked from the office house which was in…

It was by Leyton Station

By Leyton Station all the way up to Leytonstone Station

Yeah yeah basically along Grove Green Rd

Along Grove Green Rd and you worked by yourself but were there other were there other people?

There were there was plenty of people hanging around in Claremont Rd erm sitting on various sofas out in the street and people doing things in the trees and there was always the sound of woodwork being doing somewhere erm you know there was some people just whenever they had nothing to do would get on with building something or other you know that would be useful and other people had nothing to do got on with like you know smashing things up and calling it art [laughs] erm yeah but that was like the first time and you know there was people up in there was people up in cranes but I was you know I was kind of too wet and shy to go and make my presence felt erm

And was…sorry just one more question about that was it and official demo that or was it you just turned up?

No no I just turned up one day because the protest was ongoing really there was not really any sort of official things it was just people got up in the morning and then they went out and if they saw a crane they could get onto before security came along they’d do it and people would go out in ones and two’s you know erm at night people would go out in ones and twos as well and try and smash things [laughs] erm you know so everybody in the area kind of knew about it by then erm I am getting my times messed up a little bit there was erm a very big or it was very local er demo erm around that sort of time at no wait sorry I am…it’s a long there’s been a long time so I am just trying to make sure I get things right

No problem yeah, take your time

Okay so that was ninety three so I had been there then and I went down to Claremont Rd itself in early ninety four a couple of times just sort of mulled around doing like party days or open days or whatever erm but I didn’t really get involved in much more then erm towards the end of ninety four it was evicted and erm I didn’t I didn’t get my phone tree call well I did but my mum took it so she didn’t mention anything she didn’t want me getting in any trouble er so I’d came I come home from school that day the Monday morning and erm I can’t remember why I come home from lunchtime but it was on the news the eviction was going to start so I ran back to school tried to rustle up anybody to come along with me erm because the sixth form a lot of people were getting into politics a bit more and I thought then I could drag people down erm only one person came with me erm we kind of got down there and again didn’t really know what to do sort of thing there was hundreds of people there

Did you know a few people down there by that stage?

Not at that stage no erm so there was there just loads of people in the trees there was people in the roofs there was people in hanging basket hanging erm cargo nets and things like that erm and everybody was waiting for the police to arrive there was media everywhere and what not

What sort time of day was this?

Well I’d come [sighs] got from school so I got back to school again about oneish and went straight from there to Claremont Rd which would of taken maybe half an hour so it was probably about three o’clock erm and yeah we didn’t really know anybody so we just sort of stood around you know because there’s no sort of real organisation erm so there was like lots and lots of people who were sympathetic most of whom probably didn’t know anybody from who lived on the street really and nobody who lived there was really organising anybody what what they should of done is had kind of stewards or something like that to say right ‘you lot go in there you lot go in that house’ and things like that because basically there’s loads and loads of people just sort of milling around waiting around waiting to be told what to do

Hmmm

And that’s very sort of common at these things I now know so in the end we just sort of stood there and then the police moved and they kind of pushed down the road from the west side cleared it out that way and you know some people got into the houses and some people clambered up trees and some people were locked on in the ground so they couldn’t be moved erm but for the most part the police pushed people back and every so often a group people would sit down and hold them up and they used to drag them off again it was a very very exciting erm very exciting so that would have been late ninety four so I am sort of sixteen at this time and er I was kind of you know I’d only done a couple of demos by that stage but I’d already sort of became familiar with the sort of the violent policing of demonstrations and stuff but even then I one of my enduring memories of the time was seeing a group of policeman dragging away like a sort of woman who would have been in her sixties who was er there was a medic I suppose protest medic and you know she was crying out in pain and they weren’t listening and I was I was kind of shocked even then I mean I still had some sort of idea that there was fair play going on erm even though I’d sort of you know very narrowly avoided being ran over by a police horse you know during a police charge at a criminal justice bill demo a couple of months back you know and I had seen a fair amount of police heavy policing at that stage but I was still kind of shocked by that you know and erm so everybody’s clearing out and the people on the roofs are shouting and some stuff is being thrown and you know were kind of gradually being moved back and you know I guess the best thing you can do then is just to sort of at least if your going to have to be moved move slowly you know I think these days I do you know gone up into the houses are whatever but you know we’d moved out then and you know after that my school acquaintance went off home and I sort hung around for a bit erm and yeah it was I don’t really remember how it happened but we were closed off and a load of protesters who were sort of living around there went back off to a squatted dairy which is just around the other side of the railway tracks and to sort of refuel erm and to work out some tactics and stuff and erm so I went with them because it seemed like the thing to do erm back there was a couple of people who been badly beaten up erm by the police and a couple of people who were too drunk to do anything erm and this was this was where people were living at the time and so yeah everybody was quite…a lot of very emotional people there as well because people who had not managed to get in to the houses they’d lived in for ages and some locals who used to live in the houses erm you know I met er met some I can’t remember names erm no I am sorry erm you know I met all sorts of people I’d come to sort of get to know a bit better over the forthcoming sort of year and a half erm and so I was yeah I went back there you know there an ongoing there was a guy a couple of guys still in the houses people still underground there was it was a very long eviction erm there were various tunnels from the back gardens of residents houses that went and down under and into the houses on Claremont Rd and so there was still people getting into the properties for a while

So between the houses on Grove Green Rd and the houses on…

Yeah so you go through the house in Grove Green Rd and there’d be a tunnel in the back garden that would lead up and into the cellars of the houses in erm on Claremont Rd so it took a little while for those to be stopped off because what the police were doing they were clearing a house from from the west and they’d clear the house and when they were happy it was cleared they’d demolish it and they’d do the next one so it was quite scary as well because you know there’s a huge huge tower there and er you I can you got the feeling that the whole row at any time erm you know I don’t think it could of done really but it felt like that you know and you knew there were people in tunnels underneath those houses and there were often arrested straight away and would disappear for twenty four hours so there was this sense of fear like people could could being buried alive in there you now and all the time there was an on-going demo at the corner of erm Grove Green Rd and I can’t think which road it was er near Leybourne but there was like an on-going demo there and whenever the police took somebody out there they didn’t want to arrest they just dragged them through and threw them out there erm and yeah so we was there sort of every every day all day for the next few days erm

Did were you ever in the tunnels?

No I was never in the tunnels I didn’t spend much time in the houses at all erm you know this sort of stuff was at the beginning of my M11 career as it were erm yeah you know I still sort of it was very exciting and erm I was there all day every day erm and er at some point apparently I was spotted erm by a teacher who lived nearby and you know there since I was at sixth form there things were by this time so things were a little more lenient and there was quite a few sort of the old fashioned lefties teachers there so I was erm you know got sort of ‘Ah Mr White been sick have you?’ and I went ‘Yes’ and they said ‘Well done’ sort of things and that was quite pleasing I mean I was not really going to school much [rattling of keys] at that stage erm supposed to be doing A-Levels but

What what subjects were you studying?

Literature politics and History I was disappointed with politics A-Level I was kind of expecting it to be ethics because for me politics and ethics were the same thing and in fact they still aren’t to be honest but it was sort of procedural politics it was how government works and things like that stuff that would be quite useful to know if you were planning to be an activist but that wasn’t how I saw myself then and I was very very idealistic so I didn’t think that’s how change would work anyway or that the change that did happen through that sort of methods wouldn’t be worth having you know like comprise politics still not very good at it to be honest erm yeah so that was that was December I think it was December the fourthhhh or something like that erm and that went on for the whole week and you know there’s a lot of time spent shouting and a lot of time back at the dairy at the dairy and I was absolutely captivated by the people who lived at the dairy erm

I was just going to yeah I was just going to ask more about that about the people and also the space and exactly where was it?

Erm I could pin it on a map probably it’s probably a housing development now but at the time it was a Unigate dairy property that had was basically a yard with a couple of small buildings attached that had been empty for a while now there was erm it was just a place people were living really

And it was on it was on Grove…

No

No

It was around the back of er on the side of Leyton Station

Okay

So it was on the south side of the tracks erm next to the grave yard

Okay

Which was opposite there

Yeah okay

It was quite convenient because every now and again there would be like another attempt by people to get in over the through the graveyard and over the tracks but mostly that just ended up with people being arrested and there was lots of police just wondering around in the graveyard all night to try and stop that from happening [squeaking of chair] excuse me

And erm yeah and tell me tell me about being captivated by the people?

They just lived very different lives to the ones I had ever experienced I guess you know I erm even assuming that everybody is sort of when they are telling stories about things there sort of aggrandising themselves still very interesting people you know I’d talk to people who been travelling in South America and I talked to people who’d been you know talked to one guy who literally got out of prison come to come to Claremont Rd because he had friends who were living there and got dragged into the protest and he’d been in prison for years for dealing LSD he seemed like a very intelligent man at the time erm you know and there was another bloke who’d been in and out of prison and he was quite a er his name Scoth something Schofield and he died a few years ago according to people in the erm Claremont Rd group on Facebook and the two of them were telling stories about their different experiences as a prisoner and just like I mean even if it was all nonsense it was just it was like exciting and scary all at once you know erm

Can you remember any of the stories?

Just just just stories about just mostly about violence violence and boredom you know erm being given beatings by prison guards and you know people that you’d made friends with disappearing one day and you never finding out if they were transferred or if they died or if they’d suddenly been given a surprise congratulations your out sort of thing you know and just like…the claustrophobia of having to get on with people you know and stories about I guess one of the really sort of reminded me later I got reminded of it later on living at university but everybody kind of playing their music as loud as they could to drown out everybody else’s music and you know how often that would lead to violence and things like that just mad me sound horrible you know the bloke who’d er been in for doing for selling LSD had said you just spend all you time doing bodybuilding because that’s all there is to do and he was really built and as you know I went in I was like a you know [laughs] like a stringy old middle class boy you know [laughs] erm in that was there when I first sort of became acquainted with the brew crew types as well you know er sort of whether not there just alcoholics who’d haven to fallen in the the protesters or people whose values were genuinely aligned with but are unwilling or unable to stay off the special brew all day they were a funny bunch[laughs]

What was your attitude to them at the time?

Scared and intimidated mostly erm I was always very intimated by men particularly erm I…I felt like every all the adult men I knew were macho and they spoke with such violence all the time and I was beaten up a lot when I was young just in the street by people who didn’t like the look of me

Just strangers?

Yeah at least three of four occasions you know and that just just what happened it was a violent it felt really like there just violence everywhere you know erm yeah I’d been chased out of pubs I’d have glasses thrown at me I’d been beaten up in the street on my own three or four times all of this just as a teenager and I…

Why do you know I mean…

I never really…I looked different or presumably you know I had long hair and bad fashion sense looked like a hippy just happened all the time you know and I lived in fear in the end by the time I was eighteen I was getting panic attacks if somebody was going to come pick me up and we were going out somewhere I didn’t know they were panic attacks I don’t know anything about it getting these sort of mental health I lived in absolute fear. So these intimidating brew crews types you know I was scared of them and I came to some of them I came to get on with as I sort of got to know them but I ‘d lived quite a sort of I dunno like my life was always I felt like somehow I was always very different and separated and grew up in a bubble or something because I wasn’t able to sort of replicate that violence in my thought and behaviour you know I was at that sort of time I was sort of a pacifist completely erm you know but I didn’t really have much choice to be honest I so yeah I was scared of men and shouting burly rough men particularly because they were the ones always fucking you know I I look back now and it was actually the people who I’d been beaten up by were always just like them teenagers who were a bit older than me you know desperate to sort of prove their manhood t each other by beating up someone who looks different like I’d never had any real shit from proper grownups particularly…a couple of times but you know type are all taught you see in all the pubs and stuff they’re were like what are you fucking looking at?’ you know its shitty football violence threats and things like that

And it didn’t I mean the effect on you wasn’t to become violent yourself it was

No I always turned it inwards

…it sounds like it was the opposite

I was very depressed in my teens you see erm and erm very anxious so it was I look back now and I think I done very well in going out doing things on my own because by that sort of time you know I was shaving panic attacks before going out, going out clubbing to the island which used to be down there where there’s a restaurant now and you know like I got ounce din the chip shop outside once after the club because somebody took offence at the fact I had like a German army jacket on and that sort of thing erm I was getting panic attacks all the time and I just lived in fear and I didn’t I thought that’s how life is you know I thought every XXXX was like this so you could see why I left when I was eighteen you know and didn’t come back again [laughs] erm

So sorry where did you leave when you were eighteen?

I moved out of my mums house the summer I turned eighteen which was ninety six and I lived in a shitty squat for a few months with some fucking guy who was basically a psychopath but I didn’t know any better because I didn’t really have any life experience

Where was that?

Leyton up by the Bakers Arms erm

Okay

And then I moved home for a little bit went to college for a few months to top up my A-Levels which I failed because I got really low grades because I didn’t really work cause…

Because you were at Claremont Road?

Well [laughs] because there wasn’t any work really but you know there was I was doing a fair amount of activism I guess erm but yeah we kind of getting years ahead so

Yes so let’s go back to the dairy

Yeah so the

And you were talking about talking about the people at the dairy

Yeah so you know there was a lot of really interesting characters there was a was a women there she seemed really old to to me but er I can’t remember what her name was I keep coming back to Lillian but like Lillian was the very old lady who was removed by the ambulances from Claremont Rd at the last minute but she was a you know there was a women who’d lived on the streets street all of her life and erm she was very very interesting stories erm I wish I could remember her name

Not Dolly?

No no I mean not Dolly no I remember Dolly I only met her once erm I think it was Lillian you know I think it was Lillian

Hmmm

And er she was she was a good once for stories very interesting and it was a real strange sort of coming together of different people erm and what I found I like was that like they weren’t like the grownups I knew you know like when I expressed my opinions about stuff they didn’t sort of argue with me or roll their eyes or anything like that and you know and they sort of had values and they lived by values and it’s not like my parents didn’t particularly I was estranged by my dad at that point and seen him since he him from months to months at that sort of time as we got older it got worse erm but they they actually they were willing to do something you know my mum had all these nice values but she wouldn’t do anything and that seemed to me an amazing compromise you know and I still kind of do a bit I think if you believe in something it’s better to do something than anything you know like you can’t save the entire world you can’t take on every cause or anything but just do what’s in front of you know the first one that comes to hand or the one that affects you and the people around you you know my mum had been brought up to believe in the rule of law and you know to be scared of policeman because policeman are watching you all the time you know she’s still a bit scared of policeman [laughs] erm and yeah so you know the values my parents lived by was slightly different erm but you know were kind of all…all sort seemed to be equal in that environment which was something weird for me because at that time I kind of didn’t feel like I was equal of anybody really erm and that was nice and you know and I learnt lots of stuff by listening people arguing about the right way do protests is you know

Hmmm

I was introduced to the concept of fluffy and spikey and things like that

Erm for the sake of the tape will you tell me about the difference between…?

Fluffy is no-confrontational erm it’s kind of pacifist erm the worst fluffy people would do is damage equipment and what not where as spikey is very confrontational erm sometimes deliberately so like you’d just go out there and you don’t take any shit erm and they both have their appropriate uses I think

And where did you where did which felt which was your kind of natural home?

I think at the time my natural home was fluffy erm having you know I lived in fear of violence at the time and erm you know I am not I am very gently person by nature I am not a violent person at all erm sometimes I am very angry but any you know I can certainly morally justify violence in a good cause but I am not a violent person myself and one I am no longer politically pacifist or politically particularly fluffy I also think that it would be wrong of me to advocate a violent protest if I am not willing to that violence myself and I still think that way I am you know I can understand the spikey argument but not really willing to do it myself so erm whether that’s essentially a defeatist position or not I leave to the listeners to judge [laughs]

[Laughs]

That’s just how it is I am not and you know there was I am sure there some people there at the time who you know some of the brew crews especially are like…like to whip people up into a frenzy and then slide off of quietly whilst you know everybody else is having a fight with the police and what not and I don’t think that’s very fair [laughs] but you know I am certainly erm I don’t know I believe in appropriate levels at demos erm that is sort of a sliding scale depending on what the cause is and what the outcome of any sort of force used might be and you know so on and so forth but erm I think the best way of getting round it is to look at what they used to call pixy patrols that’s where you go out at night and like destroy a digger or a crane or what not you know that’s like the nice combo because it’s very hard, I don’t think policeman are generally very nice people but smashing their faces in doesn’t really doesn’t really further anything particularly unless you know it’s a smash policeman’s face in demo which [laughs] I am sure there’s been a few of those erm so yeah it’s not really for me but there’s a real kind of eye opener the stuff at the dairy erm

And erm erm what were you what were you doing in were you in the dairy sort of day in day out? What was actually what was kind of the activity?

Well basically the activity was sitting around fires trying to or erm mostly drinking and telling stories with occasional bouts erm people going off to do different actions like erm to get food either stolen or skipped or bought depending on you know the person involved erm because trying to get food to the people who were still in the houses or in the towers was very difficult so you had at least one tunnel from Grove Green Rd and that was alright until that was closed up and you had erm people sort of running packages and chucking them through windows and things like that so can people can eat erm just trying to get people some food you know [drinks water] and at night the people in the towers what they were doing is the police were waiting until they went to sleep and then they were getting a cherry picker up there and nabbing them so there was always people on the ground behind the barrios shouting to wake them up whenever the police came because they you know fi they couldn’t if the person woke and moved away the police would take their bedding and stuff so they you know in the idea that they’d get really cold and decided to come down and the last guy was up there for four days erm four days he was the last one and twenty four hours without food or water at the tower I don’t think I’d be very happy about that [laughs] that would be pushing me to my limits

That was the last person that was at the tower?

Yeah so I think that was Thursday Thursday night they got him

Do you know what his name was?

Can’t remember but there will be I am sure people in the Facebook group who can tell you that

Was it it wasn’t Phil XXXX was it?

I couldn’t say for sure

Don’t know don’t know fine

At the time I was a, you know just a sort of shy and callow youth who was at the back of standing at the back and mostly listening to other people talk really erm you know I’ve often done that most of my life I guess [laughs] listening to people talk and erm its just I dunno that how I’ve always been I supposed that’s I guess problems of being shy and anxious erm so yeah that was er December ninety four

Can I just ask were they…did I mean your talking about being a shy an anxious young person?

Hmmm

And I am just wondering what the kind of reception was like with I mean your talking about these people living in this different way

Yeah

And did you feel that they were…were they very open and welcoming to you or?

…It seemed to very well

How did that kind of play out?

Because mostly it was sort of an apathy really like not a cool apathy or anything like that if people were there they were there you know and they were like people would welcome their friends but you could just go and sit around a the fire just be like ‘alright’ and whoever was holding forth might pause for a minute but you know there was you know there’s always lots of egos involved in any sort of protest so you know lots of storytellers and lots of people who are desperate to tell everybody there version of reality erm which these day I find bloody annoying [chair squeaking] I tend to go somewhere else on the whole but back then again it was you know very fascinating because they were talking about stuff that no no people didn’t talk about in my world

Hmmm

And they all had such passion you know like I think some nights I’d probably of like agreed with people holding completely different arguments because they expressed them so well or what felt like well at the time so forcefully I’d be like ‘yeah no I see that I see that’ and somebody else would argue and be like ‘no but’ you know [laughs] that was a good learning curve I think but er yeah it kind of went quite after that so

Erm sorry I’ve got a few more questions

It’s alright [laughs]

On this on this [laughs] erm just in terms of the things people were you know like the live debates of the time

Hmmm

The things people were really concerned about

Yes

Can you have you got any mem…I said I know that it’s a long time ago

Not really I am afraid sorry it’s er a long time ago and that sort of time for the most part the protest was taking up everybody’s experience

So were people maybe was people arguing about the way that the sort of…

Yeah

The way to defend Claremont Rd or the way too

Yeah arguing about things like whether or not to try and like rush lines of police to get through they were people trying to get food both for themselves for people living in that because there was a number of other squats around like the dairy was the only one I knew and went to erm and you know ways for getting food because don’t have a lot of money and you know some some of the local residents would help out buy food bring food down and things like that but of you know there’s often times were people doing kind of various stages of the actually doing like begging patrols so you know who turn is it to go out and beg and things like that and there was always going missions to get food out the back of skips, which was fairly constant you know go down Leytonstone High Rd and go round back and get get skipped food and things like so you know keeping people in food and water took up a lot of organisation and it was a bit tricky because some people after being taken off the roof had kind of they’d either been arrested or they’d gone somewhere to lie down for a bit you know or they gone back to which ever country…er part of the country they’d been from and all the sort of normal organisation patterns seemed to be a bit broken so basically yeah it was sort of how to get food and water and you know how to keep the people in still in the houses and in the tower restocked with food and water and you know how we how’d we get in things like that occupied

Hmmm

Most of the peoples sort of time erm when they weren’t hanging out and telling stories and you know its things like I can remember one guy had his glasses smashed by the police and you know he was very very short-sighted and trying to work out ways of finding enough money to get together so he could get some new ones you know. Just little simple practical things you know and keeping warm because it December and you know the police would always take peoples blankets things like that they’re very popular idea take the blankets and you know and a lot of people who’d been in the properties just wanted to go somewhere with like central heating and have a bath and kick back for a couple of days because they’d they’d you know they’d been through a really tough time like you know I I’d if I’d lived my life for XXXX with the knowledge I would of gone in one of those houses and I’d would of stayed on the roof for on the tower until I was removed but I can’t tell you I would of enjoyed it [laughs] because it was hard you know like I said with derelict houses are a hard place to live and you know

So what is it that makes you say that you’d do that if you had your life to live again?

I guess [sighs] because I didn’t really do much you know I was there and most I really achieved was sort of slowing a policeman down for about two and a half seconds as they pushed me out the way you know like I gave some food and water to people erm some moral support and just bulked out the you know the supporting cast as it were but like I’d liked to have felt like I was a bit more involved erm and you know I was pleased with myself because I did later on get more you know it becomes more my story rather than just something I am doing

Hmmm

But erm you know at the time I wish I’d kind of…been brave enough to sort of go and say ‘right hello where shall I sit? what’s the best’ you know ‘what’s the best use of my body’ sort of thing [laughs] you know to help slow the police down locked on or just something you know…[screws bottle] so that was yeah erm that’s kind of my bit with Claremont Rd itself

I’ve just got more questions about Claremont Rd

Yeah

Well about the dairy and about that particular area I just want to ask about meetings, where you ever in like more kind of official meetings or did that not happen so much?

Erm

Was it more just like…?

Erm not when I was there when I was there it was very ad hoc

Okay

Erm you know I was I was at the reclaim the streets meeting and er in Claremont Rd one time but I didn’t really you know I wasn’t really paying a lot of attention I was just happy to be there

Hmmm

It was one of the like two or three times I came down and there was sort of actions going on and I didn’t get involved with anything because I didn’t really know what was going everybody else seemed to who what was going on and I didn’t so…I guess a very good statement of ninety ninety three and four for me really

[Laughs]

Erm yeah so that was kind of the beginning of my involvement in you know those just as a youngster sort of hanging around erm XXXX and protesters erm I didn’t really get involved in anything until they took the Willow Brook road house which was a couple of months later and erm that was there was by Leytonstone Leytonstone Station and it was a listed building it was part of the terrace and they knocked down all the rest of the terrace and there was this one big house still standing and they had to get permission to bulldoze it and so one night some of the erm you know M11 protest crew were walking past the house and they noticed that instead of security guards there was a note on the door saying ‘garden number nine’ has gone for a cup of tea or something gone to make a phone call so er one of them hopped in quickly put a section section six I think it was on the door and one ran off to get as many people as they could so that was that was how Willow Brook was taken and erm

And erm again just for the sake of the tape

Yeah

Can you tell me what section six is?

A section six is a

…Vaguely

Is a legal notice that basically says that under six six of which ever erm act er once people living in the house you can’t evict them without a court order erm and they put that up there just to…I didn’t really protect you properly but it did it does help with like the government buildings were they wouldn’t just send in some heavies to remove you erm at least not without court orders and so on and you can do appeals and it can it runs and runs. So the section six notice was basically sort of legal notification that we live here and like you know you can’t just come in and throw us out anymore so the security guards would come back and be like ‘ahhh I am just about to be sacked’ which is probably what happened erm yeah so it was a huge huge house you know there one two three four four three stories a basement and an attic…very big over the next sort of month or so loads and load of people moved in and so this was a time when I am not going to school very much and I’ve no idea how I even knew about it at all erm I might I probably bumped into somebody I recognised from the protest and they said ‘oh come down here’ so that’s probably what happened but I really I couldn’t tell you how I went from knowing erm how I first showed up at the house or whatever I can’t remember at all but you know it’s Spring ninety ninety five and I start going down the house fairly regularly erm and there’s like a core group of maybe half a dozen people who are living there so I get to know them quite well erm a bloke called John there’s always a bloke called John

[Laughs]

Erm cheesy Keith I can’t remember why he was cheesy erm John John the cook was another John I think

I’ve interviewed him

Ah okay [laughs] that’s good I hope he’s alright

Yeah [laughs]

Erm and who else was there, there was a chap called Nelly I never knew his real name erm there was a Scandinavian women who’s named I can’t remember ermmm [exhales] Richey of course erm who was a guy about my age erm he was a local kid and he lived in an estate erm in Leytonstone and he was kind of very similar to me he was quite semi feral but he was er where where I was sort of shy and introverted he was sort of bold and outgoing and you know I I got on very well with erm in the end he nicknamed me ‘mum’ because I was always expressing concern over his plans [laughs]

[Laughs]

Erm and there was always work work to do there like reinforcing the house painting the walls did a lot of a lot of you know I looked at some of the photos of the house and I think ‘oh I painted that’ you know erm I emptied my dad’s shed what the shed form the house and there was dozens and dozens of half full cans of paint there because he used to do a bit of painting and decorating on the side and so over the course of two or three days these were dragged down to to know dragged onto the tube and taken down to Willow Brook Road and painted everything in odd colours it looked very nice and so we got I said it was a big house and there’s you know a tower built at the top and all these huge lengths of wood hammered to the joist of the house erm and then reinforced with dozens it’s all very you know it’s kind of a bit scary thinking about it but there were people who knew what they were doing you know they’ve done this before and it went so far in the air you could climb climb all the way up and you get out of erm it was like on the attic windows and you walked along the and I don’t know what this architectural thing was called but it’s like a stone ridge around the top of the house and then the roof comes up and you walked along there and then you climbed up a ladder which had been built by hammering just bits of wood onto the bare exposed roof joists and your up to the roof

[Laughs]

Erm then you’d climb up the ladder and that was another thirty foot forty foot

Oh my god

Yeah some people just couldn’t get up there but I was I am alright with heights, went up there and you just sit there and you could see just you know because London’s in a bowl so you don’t really get much of a skyline at best of times you can see for miles on a clear day

Hmm

It’s beautiful and like it was so far up that like you couldn’t really road traffic noises unless something was actually driving past the house you know you just sit there for hours and you know just think and chat and you know tie tie some streamers up top there really really long streamers and when they were going in the breeze it was beautiful I was really I sort of felt I felt okay I said there at nights sometimes and I felt a lot more like I fitted in because when I kinda climbed through the hole in the fence and whatnot I said ‘hello’ people knew who I was you know [unscrews bottle]

Do you need more water?

I would love more water

Shall I just fill your bottle up?

Hmmm please thank you

[Door opening and shuffling]

Its hard work talking isn’t it

It is yeah

And now I am just remembering when I am in when it’s the other way around you do get very thirsty, sorry I am sitting here not doing very much talking at all [laughs]

That’s alright erm yeah so you know I was there quite a lot over the spring and erm spring months and there was always sort of a core group of about six people there. Sometimes somebody would go away for a couple of weeks and what not I kind of try and get down there two or three times a week stayover now and again erm you know I was still very quiet and wasn’t sort of like the public face of it or anything like that but you know I was I felt a bit more part of it because it was only a small group most you know about a lot of people had left after Claremont Rd and gone to other places Newbury was just kicking off there was erm Blackburn it was M65 protest then there was Fairmile which I think was Devon maybe I am getting two of them confused and it was Glasgow Pollok as well that I think off the top of my head people spread out around there and for the people who didn’t want to live in a derelict house with no running water erm there was also the mental centre which was erm a squatted building in Wanstead erm and they’d painted don the front ‘Wanstead Environmental Centre’ that’s were mental centre comes from and that was sort of the office of the the second wave second part of the protest so after Claremont Rd went the people still taking part in the protest was there at was based from erm the mental centre and erm so you know go down there and hang out with people and what not and then you’d go off and do some action at Willow Brook Rd erm but there wasn’t really much going on to be honest, it was that was kind of that was the quite period I suppose like I felt a bit more like I belonged and spent most of the time sitting sitting up a tower with one or two other people sort of talking rubbish and enjoying you know enjoy being there erm and that was alright erm that was evicted in June ninety five and it was the end of June I think because erm V-Days the beginning of June if I recall and I remember writing a really terrible poem about something called V-Day sitting on top of the sitting on top of the tower erm I couldn’t tell you anything more about the poem but it was about it was about like hypocrisy of celebrating V-Day when you know people dying everywhere teenage bollocks like that

[Laughs]

But you know so I know it was June and erm I hadn’t been there since probably since V-Day I had a bit of a you know a little bit of a break for a couple of weeks and erm I went round I way back from a careers not careers fare a university like a UCAS open day with some people from school and I was like and we got into the station and I was like ‘oh I am going to go visit people for now, see you later’ bags full of university perspectives no idea why I did that I never intended to go to university anyway I mean it was just a good excuse to not be at school you know and I went there and one of the guys said to ‘oh have you come for eviction?’ I said ‘we’re being evicted?’ and they got a call early that day from somebody at the police to say we are going to evict you tomorrow and the police…

That’s very nice of the police too

Well the thing is there all on overtime aren’t they so the longer it takes the more money they earn

Oh so it it was an official inside kind of…

Yes yeah and that happened for that happened at Claremont Rd it happened all the time you know because all the police are on over time and you know the longer it takes to get them out the better it is for them so some somebody will always drop you a line erm which I suppose nice and you know so I was like ‘oh well I’ll have to be back here in the morning then’ so I stayed around help do some barricading and went home and came back at the crack of dawn, getting me out of bed first thing morning was a rarity [laughs] back in those days erm got there a hive of activity erm last minute work being done it was nice there was load of people there loads and loads of people and it was standing lonely on the roof looking back now it’s a little bit scary erm and throughout the house there were you know in every room people barricade every door was barricaded er I think my favourite thing was that erm when when they erm when the house had been occupied by the by guards and the government they’d smashed out all the toilets they stripped the place out so it was kind of unliveable they hadn’t turned the water off and there was a tap in the basement that was the only one that worked people could get water out of that they they’d er turn it on fill like a moat that had been dug around the outside and left it on so the house when is evicted and bulldozed and stuff the water was still going and about a week later a large chunk of Willow Brook Rd fell into a hole [laughs] so that was nice [laughs] erm yeah so that was a really busy day it was a nice day for it

Where you up on the roof?

I was up on the roof erm lots of people were were locked on into erm ah barrels up there and they filled the barrels full of concrete except for it’s kind of hard to describe really. So half way down each the barrel and like each of the sort of four points as it were a hole had been dug and a tube a bit of er erm drainpipe I suppose had been put into there before the concrete was poured in the bottom of the drainpipe through the plastic was a bit of metal and you would take your you’d have a carabiner strapped around your wrist and you put your hand down the hole and click the carabiner to the thing and nobody could get you out you would have to unclip the carabiner yourself erm and so that in order the unclip the carabiner they have to then drill out all the concrete all the way down and then unclip you from the inside and it’s a very long very long arduous process which is why lock-ons have been very much beloved people er so there’s people in one of them and I personally wouldn’t of been entirely comfortable being locked into a barrel full of concrete on a you know roof joist that had been open to the weather for you know two years or something but you know it had to be done I’ve people chained to the tower erm and just loads of us were hanging out on the roof very cheesy somebody had got a like an old dunno portable stereo out there and when the police and the bailiffs showed up on mass started playing ‘fuck em and their law’ by the Prodigy which was like the cheesiest thing I could think of but it felt right you know like we didn’t it’s hard to spot cheese sometimes until you’ve had a bit of perspective [takes a drink] er so yeah they had one team going through the building room by room and each room had to come to break through the various layers of erm barricade and things and what you’d do is get a bit of wood and hammer it into the door frame and then you’d get another one up there layers and layers of this and with like corrugated iron in-between and planks and things like that anything that would slow them down so going room from room and they’d smash the place up as thy went to make it really hard for you to retake and what not erm and then they did weird things like they they would smashing the windows with hammers and things, why? Your about to knock the house down what is the point it’s just I felt at times they stoke up the bailiffs and the police they stoke stoke themselves up by doing macho things like you like when they get to the roof they’re throwing the roof tiles off the roof, why are you doing that it makes no sense but you it helps stoke them up for doing work like that I guess I suppose it must be difficult to out dragging people off by the neck and things like that I guess you have to sort your blood up to bit to a point where there sort hitting things with hammers at random [laughs]

[Laughs]

And they had cherry pickers picking is off the roof erm that didn’t last very long but you know got down got taken got the photo taken by the police and erm you know pushed out sent on my way I don’t think anybody was arrested that day erm

Got your photo taken by the police?

Yeah they do that at demos they’ve been doing it for a long time, it’s so they can get you get a photograph for files you know erm I don’t know

What there’s just somebody there just generally taking pictures?

…Yeah it’s not

It’s not like your taking a side

No no both they’ve got I can’t remember what they’re called there’s a special team within the police at the time I don’t if there still there probably and they just take pictures at demos all day that’s all they do take pictures and video footage and stuff like that er just constantly and when what the police took us off that and they push you to one side somebody takes a photograph of you full on and they take your XXXX again

Yeah

So I don’t know what they do with that stuff but I know they have spotter cards and you know it’s part of evidence collecting and things like that but they try and get photographs of as many people as they can at the time of demos erm you know I guess it just yeah useful intelligence [drinks water] erm yeah and so we had a little bit of a party outside while everybody came down it took hours it was like god knows twelve thirteen hours took them until the last person got off and that was alright and then er I went home and everybody else went to have a big party somewhere else so that was Willow Brook Rd erm and that was pretty good. Er were they moved after that so the environmental centre was still open erm there weren’t there was there was a couple of buildings somewhere else that we were hoping erm would be become there was the same thing waiting to be knocked down hoping to reclaim I don’t believe they ever did there was erm sort er a Claremont Rd down to Willow Brook Rd to Green Man Roundabout it was one wing of the protest but there was another section kind of round on the other side Grove er George Green in Wanstead where houses were being knocked down I was never really involved in it’s the same people but er

Cambridge Park Rd

Cambridge Park yes and so I think there was still some stuff going on at Cambridge Park Rd but mostly the people from erm from Willow Brook Rd at er either living at er green mania erm living at the environmental centre or setting up at green mania and green mania was a patch of land at the Green Man Roundabout was then you’ve got a railway track runs along there and on the other side of the railway trick is Wanstead er ponds and you’ve got all the open land and what not ponds and that and then on the other side you’ve got erm yeah the Green Man Roundabout and a patch of land that was triangle shaped erm and that was on Hollybush Hill was the road that sort of went from the Green Man Roundabout and that went down to the environmental centre at the bottom of Wanstead High Rd at Snaresbrook and so we set up there for the summer and we built tree houses there was half a dozen tree houses so them were very well built erm at least one of them was inaccessible to anybody except the one person who built it we had a number of er skyropes for getting between trees we had erm cargo nets set up erm we a couple of tents a couple of homebuilt benders we started building tunnels but didn’t get very far and was like about six foot of tunnel that ended up being filled with rubbish so

Awww that’s a shame

Erm yeah there was there was a bender there that had been rebuilt after being firebombed by some Nazi’s one night like quite early in the process

Again for the sake tape will you tell me a bender is? [laughs]

So a bender is erm it’s basically a sort of a tent or dome of some sort it’s called a bender because you plant you stick in the ground one way and then you bend them over towards the middle and you sort of tie them together in the middle erm then you cover it with either sort of natural stuff like erm leaves braches with green leaves on and things like that or with tarpon erm polyprop and stuff like that so there’s one of them there and there was a big old erm forced hen which is like a bit like the the tents you think of if you were drawing like a XXXX you’d draw like a big sort of long attempts with fifteen scalps lying toe to toe in there

Yeah

So we had one of them that was always open erm that was nice that was another few months we were there for

And what’s the story with the fire-bombing?

Er I wasn’t there at the time but some people fire bombed it one night erm and I think somebody was prosecuted for it some somebody from the NF local XXXX I am afraid I’d have to do some internet searching to get the actual answer but you know that’s the sort of thing that happened

And that was green mania?

That was at yeah it was green mania, I don’t think it was called green mania then but I think that sort of happened as part as part of the you know erm it was like Leytonstonia and then Munstonia was the Willow Brook Rd house and it’s called Munstonia because it looked like the house from the Munsters erm then Green Lane Roundabout became green mania because it sort of fits I guess erm and it was a fucking tip when we kind of took it over erm because it you know it had erm people staying there but they it was more like they were just living rough and not participating in the protest [gasps] and then during the time during the sort of six months or so that we had the people living there on and off erm we cleared it up there was so many bags of rubbish from the hospital like yellow industrial human waste bags and god knows how these stuff you know did the it was all from Whipps Cross Hospital with like human human waste and bloody stuff in there and like they just that was just dumped around and you think did the hospital people just do that did somebody steal all this stuff and then got this far and went ‘oh my god this like bits of chopped off fingers and stuff’ you know

[Laughs]

You know when they dump it there was dozens of just old tires and rubble and it just things like it had been used as a dumping ground by people of the area for ages so they kind of cleared all that up and erm there was like an ongoing project to try and build a playground out of stuff it didn’t really get very far to be honest erm then of course there’s the fire pit in the middle erm constantly arguing who has to make the tea and things like that or to do the washing up as ever [takes a drink] and erm it was sort yeah playing at playing at camping I guess erm in an urban environment and it was always again at least a dozen people there

And where you spending a lot of time there?

Spending a lot of time there erm Richey who I mentioned earlier had a worst built treehouse in the world so I decided to share it with him and like were other treehouses tended to involve the careful laying out of plants to create a base his just really was a couple of mattresses hung up over like a central arch of the tree it was some polypeptide above it erm

[Laughs]

And it was fairly low down so I used to sleep on my mattress like that cause it was like there

[Laughs]

And if somebody wanted to come talk to you and I was asleep and they’d pull themselves up and pull a leg [laughs] ridiculous time and I think to myself ‘how did you’ I spent a lot of time asleep there because being a teenage boy you sleep a lot you now it was like with the Green Man Roundabout sort of ten metres that way and the trains going past there and you know but er that’s kind of fun time there was a lot of camaraderie there erm and it was always people just hanging out really erm you kind of at this sort of stage you sort of felt like this was the last gasp really you know and we all knew that after they evicted green mania that would be it really there would really be anywhere else to go particularly erm and…I really enjoyed there but I missed the eviction because it kind of started to go a bit sour we had a load of people show in vans and buses and like who were start of the archetypal sort of new age traveller group you know and this bunch of people they were quite aggressive and it they really sort of domineered the camp and a lot of a lot of the regular visitors stopped going because there was like leaving a lot of mess everywhere there was people on smack all over the place erm nobody would do any work and you know this bunch showed just rude and aggressive to a lot of people. So I stopped going because I didn’t feel comfortable there anymore erm and the next the next time I went was kind of three or four weeks later when it was evicted erm the late I don’t know when it was I can’t remember…late September beginning of October I think?

Late September beginning of October in ninety six

Ninety six I think yeah

Yeah okay

Yeah I think so unless I’ve got confused and it was all nah it wasn’t just a few months so yeah so erm I missed the eviction for that I got there after the police lines already got up erm and all the people who like the kind of the traveller group people none of them stayed for the eviction or anything like that which is kind of it sucked really

Hmmm were they there when the police turned up?

No they had all gone they stayed they stayed around for maybe two weeks until everyone got really annoyed, I was told there was some violence but I don’t if that was true or not you know. There’s always there always kind of drama going on you hear rumours of violence happened between somebody and somebody else you know erm because it a movements like this kind of there’s a hard core sort of traditional activist what seemed to be a traditional activist back there with dreadlocks and the indigent life style and things like that and erm they were the public face they were the public face because the media made it so partially nobody was interested in doing like the views of anybody of who didn’t look like who wasn’t even a little old lady or didn’t have dreadlocks erm but there’s also a lot of people involved who worked normal jobs and didn’t tend to live on the sights but they would show up for actions and they supported with administrative support things like that you know like the the traditional the dreadlock types were just the ones who could dedicate all their time to it you know because they’d chosen to live that way you know but don’t kind of let anybody tell you that they were the only people involved at all they were just the ones you saw all the time so there was lots of other people around and you know when when this sort of the travellers who weren’t environmentalists for whom their own personal problems meant that they weren’t very sociable you know in a positive way I am sure if you talked to other people there would be friends with some of the people who were there that I am kind of badmouthing. I found them very intimidating erm but other people might of thought they were brilliant

Hmm

And you know so yeah so you know I was a bit annoyed these people showed up and then made everything bad vibes and buggered off again [laughs] erm there’s always people in these sort of things who don’t want to do any work whether they are the sort of people are kind of too shy to put themselves forward and you know waiting to be told to do something or whether they’re people who don’t realise they’re slacking off you know like ‘having a rest’ ‘just going to do something in a bit’ or there’s people who just they are attracted to…you know there’s you get a lot of people with mental health problems who come down and join in

Why do you think that is?

Because people with mental health problems basically live a lot of their lives out in public or some some certain mental health problems and they see something going on and they just kind of bumble in and join in and the protest movement historically and recently haven’t been very good at saying actually your not contributing you don’t believe in this your not well bugger off. And because they tend for the most part be utopians and say well you know alright this bloke doesn’t really do anything except drink and shout at people but you know we can’t like force them to go anywhere because that would be like very fascist and so you would end up with a situation where your running a protest group and social services at the same time but nobody’s got any training in social services and nobody’s able to set parameters and that becomes quite intimidating you know I’ve seen it happen erm then and I saw it again at the occupy movement a couple of years ago which I was staying there for a while you know and it is difficult to help who you know street drinkers alcoholics and junkies who come who are attracted by presumably the idea of comradery and having people around them you know I I know of at least one person who turned into a very addict er very good activist after having joined the groups just because they wanted somewhere to be an addict in

Hmmm

But you know that sometimes can be very intimidating

Hmm

And it leaves you to question people’s commitment

And how did it how was sort of fitting in with your own emotional difficulties you know your anxiety and panic attacks, how was that feeding into that sort of thing?

Well it made me not want to go into the green mania anymore which was a shame because I’d really enjoyed it there but it was like a quite ugly you know erm

But do you think that like at Willow Brook for example that had eased your…

Yeah it been a very positive experience for me I felt part of it and I felt you know I was a erm know a recognised face at green mania for the most part you know people knew who I was but I was one of the green mania people

Hmmm

You know there was quite a lot of young people who hung around with the various groups

That was my phone sorry I think

Sixteen sixteen I am expecting because I said to a friend of mine who works in Ilford that I’d er catch up with him, I’ll just reply to this text

Of course you can yeah

Erm

So that was just a text message coming through for the sake of the tape [laughs] are you in a do you need to go at

I have to leave about five yeah

Okay fine

I don’t think there’s much more to be honest but erm

What time did you say it was now?

It is coming up to twenty past four

Okay fine

Right I met have more time if he decides he doesn’t want to wait erm yeah so that was quite intimidating and I was having a lot of mental health problems on and off more on than off at the time and erm I found green mania to be very sort of very nice peaceful place you know

Hmmm

And mostly what happened at green mania we sat around a fire and sort just hung out in the you know and occasionally there was a good rave there and what not erm which is kind of the first raves I went to was through there and at the time I was really into heavy metal and what not but [laughs] picked up a bit of a taste for the electronic music there

[Laughs]

Erm yeah I spent my twenties just raving all the time erm yeah so I guess I think I was more mentally ill during that late period erm and increasingly my mental health was suffering erm you know late ninety six I was kind of really unwell and probably could have been section to be honest I was delusional and paranoid and argh horrible times

Can I ask what what form it was taking?

Erm mostly, I was just really really depressed you know I was kinda just paranoid. I was suicidal, I was convinced that you know I was going to die soon and you know as it got worse I was er I went through a period where I believed I was being followed by werewolves things like that just like nonsense. One day I was walking around the streets and there was some children playing and I could see that I could see their skulls… like glowing through their skin and I just thought fucking hell I am not well you know [laughs] I didn’t really have a plan I didn’t know how I was going to get through it you know er

And you were still living at home at this point?

I was yeah my relationship with my mum was it was sort of frail at times simply because I was coming and going all hours I was drinking smoking weed all the time and wasn’t looking after myself you know I didn’t have any plans about what I was going to do. I was always talking about death and self-harming and…just I came and went you know like I was not well at all so it took a long time to get better really erm [drinks water] and yeah so I couldn’t really devote myself what I wanted to do in my my sort of vague plan was that I was going to see out the winter ninety six and then I was gonna go er off to Newbury and join what was left of the protest up there because most of it had already been evicted by then. I spent a week at Newbury in…ninety six spring of ninety six and I was going to go back there erm and try and catch up with the tail end of the protest there see were that took me and XXXX I was gonna go and go and become a travelling road protester but I didn’t get any further than living this stupid squat in in Leytonstone er in Leyton and just I got sicker and sicker at the time I was convinced I was being followed all the time and we’re often living without electricity and I was stealing food from the supermarket to eat and I had no idea about benefits or anything like no idea nobody had ever told me how to claim benefits or what you had to do no idea so that was pretty shit

And were you in touch still with anybody from the the road protest days you know green mania?

No once that had gone everybody sort of disappeared and went their own ways and I wasn’t close enough friends with anybody to stay in touch. I think er I think I have Richey’s number but also I was mental and just didn’t know I was scared to use a phone wasn’t until I was in my twenties that I started using and be more confident with a telephone [laughs] you know erm I found it very hard it very hard to get in touch with people that I did want to keep in touch with erm so yeah I didn’t keep in touch with any of them I’ve sort of bumped into a few of them when I got a bit better I went to college to do some sort of part time A-Levels and bumped into a couple of the younger kids erm who’d ended up there and we sort of hung at vaguely went to the same parties and things over the course of that year

Hmm

Erm but until you know until Facebook I didn’t get back in touch with anybody at all from that sort of period and most of the most of the people my age there er that I talked to from the protests kind of not really involved in politics anymore beyond sort of sharing things n Facebook and what not so you know I kind of have to go off in a different direction again sort of thing

Yeah sure, so so tell me tell me the the the horrible squat you were living in and what was going on there?

Erm, all it was really was that my one of my friends erm I don’t know her boyfriend lived in er Bakers Arms and he was a bit of psychopath as it turns out, he’s one of these people whose very good at making everyone feel like their friends and stuff so he like ‘oh yeah move move in here’ erm and it turned out it wasn’t like you know a leased place or anything it was just somewhere he was living. We lived under the threat of eviction on the whole time and then he buggered off to Nottingham to where my friend at the time was living and las I heard of him he was in prison erm I don’t really want to talk about but it was [mumbles] fucking horrible and so it was just like a three room flat and cats there he picked up from somewhere and you know he’d been dealing smack out of the place a while back so there was always people showing up you know for various reasons who know no smack here go away sort of thing erm and then at one point he erm he had I lost my keys so I was climbing in and out through the front window erm which involved kind of the slatted windows at the top, I don’t know why the police never came around there you go yeah it’s just a really unhelp it was like it was like my brain had picked the most re…stupid thing to do but there was no telling me at the time I was determined I was going to live out you know I was going to stay here for a bit and then I am going to go off travelling when it gets a bit warmer but instead I just ended up in this fucking cold unlit flat on my own were the guy I was living with had kind of taken most of his belongings and buggered off and he was like ‘look after it for me until I get back’ sort of thing with no phone and nobody came around because you know it was miles away from East London and nobody could make plans or anything that and the cats always needed feeding they always needed cleaning up and I was just I dunno really I was going absolutely crazy and one night I couldn’t take it anymore and I went hopped on my bike and cycled back to my mums house and like it’s about four or five in the morning you now woke her up and was like [makes crying noise] you know it was a film it would been a beautiful sort of reconciliation but really I was just sort of so unwell I couldn’t control I was just crying and came back in you know my mum accepted me back in and like I had to sleep on a mattress on the floor in one of my brother rooms because my room was being used now [laughs] and er you know slowly got my mental health back a little bit but erm you know it was a it was a very bad period of time then and I think like ninety six was probably the lowest I’d got for a long time erm and I dunno I guess I guess part of it the the the protest you know it was a…it became a bigger thing for me in retrospect you know at the time it was just something I was doing and wasn’t and I was beating myself up for not being better at it as if there was a sort of standard that you had to be and like hoping that we’d win but we couldn’t win we’d already lost you know [laughs] and so that’s that sort of hiding to nothing sort of side of things as well erm and that I guess that is really it I suppose [laughs]

No no that’s that’s great that’s really good detail but can I just ask a little bit about you know the years since those days and like how maybe I am particularly interested in what impact that period of your life has had on you know your later life and how it shaped your politics?

Hmmm

Or your lifestyle and…

I guess for me it was kind of my entry into politics erm over the I went to university in the end of ninety seven and erm I went to Middlesex in London Tottenham and I stayed involved vaguely in sort of student politics stuff that most I I wasn’t doing anything to organise it was just going demos you know and arranging petitions and letter writing campaigns and stuff for the student union and then nothing very sort of hardcore or anything like that erm then after university my then partner and I moved down to south coast and that was about the time the Iraq war was all kicking off and I joined a small group of anarchists down there and we started something called Worthing Against War and we did we tried to do a lot of anti-war campaigning and that became my life for the best part of a year erm organising fundraisers leafleting and getting up in the morning to do demonstrations outside of buildings then going off to work then coming back and doing other things. And it was it burnt me out completely erm again by the end of it I became really paranoid erm but I was being followed around by the police you couldn’t small time you know and like everywhere you go there would be police people coming around and knocking on the door for spurious reasons and I got really really paranoid and paranoid is not really a very good thing to have with me mental health [laughs] so erm I was like ‘right I can’t do this anymore’ and I sort of stayed out of politics for the most part like being activis…er doing activism for years erm moved back to London split up with my partner erm started a teaching training course that for a little while stopped doing that erm

What were you studying at university?

I did literature and philosophy erm I didn’t really have any aim in mind you know but that was just the things I liked. It did because those sort of things all I ever did I choose modules were I already knew enough about it so I did fuck all work and just ended up writing essays about stuff I already knew about so [laughs] it was a bit of waste of time really you know there was no academic rigour involved and it wasn’t a very good university erm so that was kind of a waste of time to be honest erm yeah and er I spent my twenties mostly ah I was in a relationship with somebody I nearly got married too but that did work out erm and I did teacher training and I dropped out of that essentially because I was drunk then I er after after I dropped out of that I went on a sort of few month bender [car noises in background] erm went off to New York for a week’s [laughs] spent loads of money on my credit cards that I didn’t have and then came back and booked myself into a recovery group for a while erm sort of got a handle on that and then erm…lived in East London with various friends and did lots and lots of raving moved loads and loads of drugs for like five six seven years erm move down to Brix…when my East London friends got a bit bored of that sort of lifestyle I moved down to Brixton with people I knew off the internet to continue it for another few years erm lets have a loo I wound up I paid for myself mostly by temping and then I started working social housing which I still do erm balance sort of working with having an on off drug habit for years and years and years erm sort of got clean about after a sort of after many years of hard work and detoxes and stuff in twenty ten and been drug free since then so that’s alright ah these days live in Anerley with my partner of four years erm I only work part time now so I am not well enough to hold a full time job but I do data analysis for XXXX housing which I am quite good at erm my I’ve been involved in politics to a certain degree erm I was at when I erm doing stuff with Occupy

Hmmm

I helped set several Occupy camp in London and sort of organised that for a little while I helped organise it erm and what other stuff have I been involved in doing some help my partner is involved in Justice for Women she does a lot of work with them and they have been kind doing some stuff in the back back room helping helping them primarily erm she’s taking a break from that now to study so we’ve kind of not got any anything fixed that we’re doing

Hmmm

At the moment and sort of I found that for me I don’t want to be doing sort of frontline stuff really [drinks water] erm I don’t mind sort manning the barricades as it where and I don’t mind doing the sort of backroom organising but I don’t really want to be you know kind of doing the out-reach as it were like having I got a bit burnt out with the Occupy stuff

Hmmm

Just wrangling you know like again the disconnect between the brew crew and the people who people who have a million ideas but nobody wants to do any work you know like all this consensus decision making and how it just meant that absolutely even nothing got done I used to live it when people got together for the general big circles and like except for about five or six of us who had like an hour and a half while all the others were arguing about consensus decision making we went out and actually got stuff done you know

Yeah I wanted to ask about the sort of political those [gasps] meeting processes and how I just wondered if you can talk a little bit more about the consensus decision making and what that look you know what that looks like and how you responded to it

Well I mean…we didn’t really have so much consensus decision making at the M11 Link erm because consensus decision making kind of informal way erm has taken off in recent years and I I think it’s a nice naïve idea but all every really turns into is like a huge argument and then the same people do it anyway you know and the way I look at it that if I am the person who’s going to have to the dam work because nobody else can be arsed to do it then I am going to do it the way I know works even if you think you’ve got a better idea [laughs] you know and that’s like bloody mindlessness because that’s kind of its anti-democratic and what but the simple truth is I’ve lived on these camps before and know how it works you know it like everybody’s like ‘yes we need agree we all do shifts all night long so that there’s always two or three people awake’ right but what ends up happening is all the people who’ve agreed that go to bed

[Laughs]

Don’t they? You know and it’s like…trying to get the groups together to like get their shit together to organise a toilet and in the end like consensus decision making is a fine idea but really all it is is there will always be at these things a group of people who know what how to do things and they will do it and other peoples input will be appreciated and their help will be appreciated and they’ll probably be willing to listen to discussions about it but like everybody everybody’s opinion being valid and equal no matter how little about the subject doesn’t really work you know like I guess I feel like erm it seemed really useless to me erm because like what all every happens is that the consensus is we’ll appoint a working party and the working party is people who wanted to get it done two days ago and they’ll come back and say ‘right we need to do this’ and everybody agrees and but you could of agreed that two or three days ago when somebody says ‘we need to do this and I know to do it so we’ll do it’ erm and I got thoroughly cheesed off with it because all it ever is it’s the egotists talk for ages and ages and ages and have a massive argument everybody else is going like a drinking game and the same people have to do it’s just more convoluted I I didn’t like consensus decision making you know it it formalised it formalised and added rules to process that didn’t need formalising because your like ‘we need a toilet what are we going to do?’ somebody says ‘well I’ll er I’ll phone and book a portaloo and pay for it out of donations jar’ that’s brilliant we don’t need to have a sixteen people discussion whether or not it’s better to do this or to spend the money on something else and carry on using the toilets at Starbucks and you know and should we be paying for this out of that and who’s gonna do it ‘I vote you do it’ you’ve you know it’s like we we sort of got things done without it before you know and all it does it gives the people it gives people who don’t intend to do any work the illusion of being part of it and that’s kinda quite good I you see people come out of themselves as they discuss stuff like that but you know it just became funny because the half dozen people at the second protest camp at Occupy just who actually knew how to do things just actually knew how to do things and just got on and did it while everybody else is having their consensus decision making

Hmmm

[Laughs] and er then it also you know I’ve got quite a lot complaints about doing….because it was a pointless demo it was a demo just say we’re upset about things but it was disunified

Hang on which demo?

Er sorry the Occupy stuff

The occu…all of the Occupy? Everything?

Yes it was you know it was we don’t like this but there was no sort of unified response to it erm but I am ranting now I don’t think Occupy are sort in the remit [Laughs]

Well er it can be, it totally can be

But yeah my experience is there from from the M11 stuff helped me much later on you know it it taught me about stuff not to do it taught me about stuff what to do erm and it kind of it was funny because I was seeing sort of kids who were sixteen and seventeen at Occupy and being reminded of myself you know and so I kind of tried to make a point of encouraging them a little bit more you know and like…I dunno my girlfriend took the piss because there’s like you go and talk to them and there all like ‘ohhh big grown up activist man talk to me’ sort of thing but I mean that kind of how I felt one of the seasons protesters aimed to talk to me at the M11 so you know you try and pass on useful bits of the information that you’ve picked up over the years maybe it will work a bit better in the future I don’t know [laughs]

Erm okay so then my final my very final question is just erm…er how does it how do you feel now looking back at that time what’s does it?

I am very proud of it I guess I mean I liked my my version my story from it to be a little more like you know I did a lot more er I gave more of myself to it you know erm I wish that I’d been kinda of braver and you know made made some decisions to get involved with it and make my life revolve around that rather than try and dip in and out and try and maintain you know er because I didn’t give more of myself to it because I was scarred or you know dropping out entirely of of you know what would happen if I don’t finish my A-Levels well the answer was absolutely sod all you know like I was scared to make a decision and erm I kinda wanted to have it both ways but I look back now what I would like to of done is just gone and lived at Claremont Rd and stayed there full time and kind of treated more as a proper apprenticeship in life rather than you know just dipped in and out erm you know and then I could of come back later on and sort of got my shit together when I was ready for it. I think I could have been a bit more forgiving of myself not try to do too much erm both you know try try maintain a school education I wasn’t interested in and you know my own mental health and stuff. I coulda just picked one of them and stayed with it rather than you know I am very proud of it I think it’s a very important period of British history and it taught me a lot of things like practical stuff erm but also you know observing how we were talked about in the media like these days if you read a references to it, it’s kind of I dunno it’s like there a golden age of British protest you know like I am but at the time they treated us with absolute contempt you know like I was looking through some of those even places like The Guardian you know a reputation for being liberals just just drips of contempt

Hmmm

You know and like I guess everybody’s history gets it kinda of becomes a soft glow when it’s no longer dangerous we can all talk about what a wonderful thing it was but actually at the time it was cold and miserable and the media hates us and they patronised the shit out of us and every time they put people on the T.V they’d find the person who was the drunkest person who couldn’t do up their own clothes properly and like present them as like the mouthpiece of the organisation you know and but yeah I am proud it I am proud of what we did you know we slowed it down we forced a re-think a critical re-think into roads policies you know we cost them a lot of money and a lot of time and I yeah I am proud of it and that I guess is that

Is that that?

Unless you’ve got another question [laughs]

No no I haven’t no no I haven’t I haven’t got another

I am kinda talked out [laughs]

My only other question which is the question I use at the end I say at the end of every single interview just is there anything I haven’t asked you?

Erm I…

That you feel like you wanted to talk about

[Laughs] I am all talked out I couldn’t possible think of anything else now

Okay

Erm this has been er it’s kind of half therapy session and half reminiscing so you know I am afraid I sort of tangent a bit about my mental health a lot but

No that’s absolutely fine

[Laughs] I am afraid it’s rather central to my to my own experience you know. I’ve got to…see if my mates buggered off [phone rings]

I’ll turn this off now than shall I? Thank ever so much

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Paul White

Project: Voices of Leytonstonia

Date of interview: 20/11/15

Language: English

Venue: Eastside Community Heritage

Name of interviewer: Polly Rodgers

Length of interview: 2:11:49

Transcribed by: Joshua Adams

Archive Ref: 2015_esch_VoLe_10

Wanstead

Wanstead

Archive Reference: 2015_esch_VoLe_12

So to start with John can you just tell me a little bit about, well can you tell me where you were born, and, and a little bit maybe about your childhood?

Right I spent, I, I was actually born, although I spent very few years there, I was actually born in Zimbabwe because my dad was a teacher there, but my parents were Scottish, so we came back to Scotland, er, when I was relatively young and I spent most of my growing up years in Scotland in Edinburgh and came down to London in my er latish twenties.

Erm, and what are your predominant memories of growing up in Sc-, in Edinburgh? What do you remember most about Edinburgh growing up?

It’s a very interesting question, er, er. Going back to Edinburgh now, it feels like going back home, but, er, huh, it was an odd situation cos I had come to Edinburgh, er, having not lived there all my life so I had to get adjusted to a new country, and in some ways looking back, that adjustment, er, to a new country and to a new set of friends, t, maybe twice as you move school, actually was, ahher, it was slightly odd, that although my parents were Scottish through and through and they felt Scottish, I never felt I quite belonged in Scotland, nor did I er feel like, ererer I belonged in Zimbabwe so in a sense my memory is of, you know a relatively happy childhood, but not quite feeling I was part of, I was the same as everybody else I was growing up with.

Um, interesting. So, tell me again how old you were when you came to Scotland.

Er, well, we came twice, but, er, initially I was very young, then we went back to Zimbabwe so effectively I was about ten when we came and settled in Scotland.

Ok, ok, so quite a long time in Zimbabwe first?

Quite a long time in Zimbabwe and what’s interesting is I have very few memories of er, Zimbabwe. Whether I, whether I enjoyed it or got anything out of it I don’t know, but it it it’s virtually a blank

Really?

Which is just extraordinary. My sister, who’s two years younger than me, she can remember everything from virtually the day she was born. Er, er certainly from the day she was two years old er

Wow

So, er, but I can remember very, very little of it. So er, in a funny way life begins at ten in, in a strange country

[laughter]

With lots of new friends.

And where abouts were you in Edinburgh? Not that I know Edinburgh very well, but…

We live, we lived in the suburbs, in in in in the south of Edinburgh. Er and erm yeah, just in many ways a fairly ordinary, middle class erm childhood.

And did you go to school locally?

Yeah, yep, yeah er, er, er yes I to a sort of primary school and secondary school both locally erm and school was neither particularly enjoyable, nor particularly unenjoyable, it was just school really [laughter]

And so what brought you to London, er, in the twenties?

Initially I wanted just to, erm, come to London just to erm live in London for a few years. That was very much my intention and then to possibly go back up to Scotland. Erm, I suppose just as similarly relatively young just to experience living in London. Er, now clearly the plan didn’t quite work out [laughter] because many years later I am still, er, in London.

It’s a familiar story

It’s a very familiar story. That’s right. So that’s what, that’s what brought me to London, erm, and er in London I just did various jobs, er retail, my first job in London was working in WH Smith, erm, er, which was almost as boring as transcribing interviews, and erm just a matter of me xxx. Er but I did er various other retail jobs er er and then I got into campaigning er in in the early 1980’s. Er I got very involved in what was called the Fares Fair campaign when Ken Livingston was er the leader of the GLA first time round. It was a whole controversy about he had promised cheap fares, he delivered cheap fares, er the law courts er ruled illegal, many of us felt that was just a political decision, and there was kind of, almost a London wide campaign to bring back cheap fares. That’s where I first got into campaigning.

So, so you were straight in with transport right from the beginning

Yes, I mean, er er, I was straight into transport, er I mean I don’t think it was a kind of deliberate decision I wanted to go into transport, what, what got me riled up, er, what got me going was what I believed to be the unfairness of erm fares going up despite the fact we’d all voted for Ken Livingston to bring down the fares. Erm so it wasn’t the kind of, very little of my life has been planned and and that, that wasn’t a kind of plan that I wanted to go into transport. I was involved in transport campaigning as my first campaign and if I hadn’t got involved in campaigning in London I might well have gone back to Scotland. Er but I gpt involved in campaigning, as we’ll hear, as we go on, that led to, one thing led to another.

And were you political before you… became involved actively?

I wa, I was, I was interested, I was interested in politics and in issues, but I hadn’t been involved er as an activist, as, er in my teens from early twenties. I think part of that was my, my parents weren’t political in any way. I didn’t grow up in that sense in a , in an activist household, erm and , and also, er as as a kid I ;lacked self-confidence big time, and an an I wouldn’t have seen getting involved and making a difference in a political party as something that I would do. Er so I think in my teens and my twenties, although I was interested in politics, getting involved was not something I saw as an option for me.

Uhum Uhum. Erm, what’s my next question? [laughter] Yeah, that was interesting, so did it, did it feel like, was it a kind of, did it impact on your confidence levels this…

Campaigning?

This discovery of campaigning and the…

It, it helped the, er er, yes, but it took many years. It took a long, it took the best part of a decade, for me to gain some sort of self-confidence, er, er, initially when I got involved in what I thinks called the Fare’s Fair campaign, er er and local Fare’s Fair groups around London, mine was in South London, erm I didn’t see myself, I sort of saw myself as just going along to the meetings and taking part. Errrrrr, it would have been inconceivable for me at that stage to have thought of myself as you know chairing a meeting or er you know, anything like that. Er, and I think, that was partly inexperience, cos we all have to start somewhere, that was partly inexperience, er, but I think it was also, it was also a basic lack of self-confidence. An, and it took some years for that to, you know, go away and be build up.

And do you think it was an unusual lack in self-confidence?

Yes I do. Yes I do. Er er and I think it erm, I think it maybe goes back to this rather peculiar childhood that I had, er you know, where I felt I wasn’t really part of anything. I, I wasn’t part of Zimbabwe, I, I wasn’t part of any particular schools cos I’ve kept moving around, er and therefor, you know, I just, er, I, I didn’t have this confidence.

So aside from confidence, do you think, did activism, was there a sense that activism made you part of something? Did, did it you…

It, it, it did. I’m not sure, it, looking back it did, I’m not sure thought that, erm, that’s certainly not why I went into it, er, and I’m not sure that I actually, it’s essential for me, because I’ve thought about this over the years, er, because I’ve been a kind of activist ever since, could I walk away from it? And and the answer is yes.

The answer is yes?!

Yes, the, the

That’s not what I expected you to say!

No, th, the, the answer, I probably, I probably could, er er I could walk away, I may choose not to, that’s a different, that’s a different question. You know, I may choose not to walk away from my activism, but if if if if I walked out of the library today, and wasn’t an activist, erm, er er you know, I could, I could live life without activism

Who would you be if you weren’t an activist?

[laughter]

I’m not sure if that’s strictly an oral history question

Er, I’m not sure I can answer, [laughter] I can answer that. I suppose I’d be myself but without the activism bit there. But that, I would need, that’s a really interesting queation. It’s a pub conversation that really [laughter]

Well I always think of oral history as a little bit like pub, pub interviews

Well, because, I like oral history more and more! Why didn’t I get into this earlier [laughter]

Erm, so ok, ok where were we? So erm your, the Fare’s Fair campaign, can you tell me a little bit, so you, you were in south, in Lambeth

I was in Lambeth

Were you, were you living in Lambeth?

I was living in Lambeth, yes.

Erm, can you tell me just a little bit about just where you were living, and the sort of circumstances of your-

Yeah. Erm erm, I was working, I was working at the time in WH Smiths, I think, or, or, or I moved to one or two retail places, but I was certainly doing retail work, in Streatham. And I was living in Lambeth, typical sort of situation. I was living in a bedsit in Lambeth. Er, and er, you know, I, and I lived in the kind of Brixton Clapham Stockwell area for many, many years.

Where you living by yourself, or with others?

Er, er I was, it varied. Some of the time I was in a shared house, some, some of the times I was in a kind of bedsit which was part of a shared house, but essentially was, was my own

Was your own, Yep. Erm, and did you have good, kind of relationships with the people around you, were, were-

Yeah

Was there a sense of community?

Erm, in some of the houses there was, in some of the houses it was more erm, you, you lived on your own, in your own bedsit, or your own little flat. Er, but, yeah, everybody knew each other, fair, and knew each other fairly well.

And how did you come across the Fare’s Fair campaign? Do you know? Can you remember? When you first because aware of it?

That is a really good question, I’m not entirely sure I remember, I I I think, because it became quite famous, it, it was the big London issue, it was a big London issue, and I just think [pause] this is dredging the memory bank, but, I, I , I, it was in the papers, it was probably in the south London press, in the Evening Standard, er, it, it , I just went along to the first, went along to a meeting in Lambeth, so I think I must have heard about it, read about it in the papers.

And do you remember that first meeting you attended?

I do, I do, yes. I do, becau-, because it was my first meeting as an activist, er a budding activist.

Did you think of yourself as an activist?

No. No, no, no. I, I, I’m not sure I really knew the word. I, I, I thought of myself as somebody who felt strongly about this issue, er and wanted to do something about it. Er and there were a whole number of other people there who were in, who I met, who, some of them a little bit more experienced as activists, but on the whole not. Most of them were relatively young, and just wanted to do something about the fares, Fares Fair, er er situation

So what are your memories of that meeting? If, you know, describe it in the most kind of narrative way that, [laughter]

Er, it it it’s, I suppose, uncertainty, because if I hadn’t been to a kind of, what we’ll now call an activist meeting before, er I didn’t really know what to expect, didn’t know who would be there, er, er. Yeah, I suppose uncertainty [pause] desire to get to know the other people better, but the fact that I kept going back to it meant that er, well A: I felt strongly about the issue, but B: clearly the meeting and the whole er campaign was working for me

Uhum. And what were you doing in the campaign? What did the activism actually entail?

Erm [pause] we, what did we do? We did the normal things like, we, we had street stalls, we wrote letters, th, this is a long time ago now, I, it did lead to. The most dramatic thing was that we than began to take direct action, because the Fairs Fair campaign also had an element called Can’t Pay Won’t Pay, and Can’t Pay Won’t Pay was perhaps, just the kind of, better known thing, was you actually went onto the bus or onto the tube and you had a little ticket, but you didn’t buy a ticket, you simply said ‘can’t pay won’t pay’. Erm, now, what you were meant to do is, er, in in those days there were no ticket barriers, you, you went through a person, and, and instead of having a ticket you just, er you know handed them a little, er, er, er sheet of paper saying can’t pay won’t pay, and then really just ran

Onto the bus?

Well, that was on the tube. On the bus, the bus, no the bus was hugely embarrassing, er ha, it just, it just shows how long ago it was, direct action these days people would be er, you know, er have meetings before hand, and think how, how would you support each other, er how do you work with each other. Now this was, you know, this was the early 1980’s and none of that happened, you know, it just wasn’t part of the culture. But we at Lambeth Fares Fair, we thought we’d better do Can’t Pay Won’t Pay, so what, what would we do and it just kind of shows where we were, but ach er. There’d be lots of busses a Piccadilly Circus so let’s go to Piccadilly Circus Saturday afternoon, and what if each of us just get on a bus and say ‘can’t pay won’t pay’? Now, It’s just exactly the wrong thing to do [laughter] Exactly the wrong thing to do. So I got on number 38 bus and erm, said erm well it’s obvious but ‘can’t pay won’t pay’ and the conductor quite rightly said ‘what’s that?’ and I said ‘can’t pay won’t pay’ and he said ‘Well mate bus’s not going anywhere’ and all these people were just looking at me, whether they were going shopping or up to cinema or football or, and I thought ‘oh shit, what am I going to do here’ and, and, the idea was we knew what would happen, they would stop the bus until the police came, and then the police would ask you to leave, and we all decided that we would leave if the police said so, otherwise you get arrested or course, there was no point. So er, er I thought oh God, when are these police going to turn up? There taking ten minutes, you know, I was more concerned to see the police than the rest of the people on the bus, anyway, that was a memory, and it was a vivid memory, as it was hugely embarrassing. Er, I don’t think as a Lambeth group we ever did busses again, er

Did the police come?

Yeah, the police came, and they simply said ‘why, why won’t you pay your fair’ and I said ‘can’t pay won’t pay’ I mean, wh, f, which, it was a fairly well known slogan, and they said ‘well we’re going to ask you to get off the bus.’ And in that case I will get off the bus, you know if I didn’t get off the bus they would’ve arrested me, and, and I think we’d decided as group that actually we’d done the protest, there was no point getting arrested as well. So, that I certainly do remember

And, erm, just to go back to what you said before, that it was a stupid approach

It was

Can you just tell me how you’d do it differently now if you were in the same situation?

In the same situation

With the knowledge you have now?

In the same situation now, er , assuming we were going to stop busses and trains, we, that might not be the choice, erm but assuming that was the choice, what would happen now is that we’d sit down together as a group, think through the consequences, rather than just jump on a bus, think through the consequences, er, think also of er we’d have some sort of legal advice or legal support, and er at least two of us would go on the same bus, you know, it wouldn’t be one isolated person, probably three, probably two doing the action, and maybe another two pretending to be passengers, and the pretend passengers would be hugely supportive, so we’d change, so that there’d be a completely different narrative than we had. Er, so it would be done very, very differently.

Erm, so from that point on you must have learnt fairly quickly-

Never to go on a number 38 bus again!

Never to go on a number 38 bus again!

Yes I did, I did [laughter]

But I mean your approach to activism, did that, did it change, change, did it, did it feel like a fast learning curve?

Yes. Fares Fair campaign and Can’t Pay Won’t Pay was a fast learning curve, not just in the terms of being active in the sense of direct action, but I was learning very quickly about, you know political structures, MPs to members of the greater London Authority, how you lobby them, how you speak to them, er learning a bit how you deal with the media, er and that was all, err, yes that was a steep learning curve, yes, as well as learning a bit about the transport stuff. Erm, so that all happened in the space of two or three years. And then what happened next was erm, something called Lambeth Public Transport Campaign was set up which came out of Fares Fair campaign. Er and it was set up by, partly by myself, and a couple of other people from the campaign. And the, greater London authority, who were going out of business, cos Thatcher abolished them if you remember, er, they were looking to spend money as quickly as possible before, er, she grabbed all the money as well, so they said to us, ‘well look, if your setting up a campaign, we’ll fund it’. Days have changed [laughter]. ‘We’ll fund it. We’ll fund an office, we’ll fund a worker’.

Wow!

I know, I know. Exactly. And so I became, it became a job share. And so I became a worker on something called Lambeth Public Transport Campaign, which them Lambeth Council took over the funding of it, it became Lambeth Public Transport Group, and essentially became a sort of campaigning watchdog group, to try and improve public transport for the people of Lambeth.

Ok. And you were still there?

I was, I was still there, and, and I did that, er for the next, as part of what I did, it was a job share, I did that for the next, er, 15 years.

Wow.

Er, but, but, out of that arose some of the anti-road stuff which kind of, eventually will lead us to the, to the M11 link road

Eventually

Yes, yes I know [laughter]. During the 1980’s there were, proposals emerged to erm, build a a, or widen roads right across London. A 12 billion pound program.

And this was Thatcher, Thatcher’s-?

Th, this was Thatcher years, er, er that’s right. It was a Conservative government program. Now groups began to spring up all over London, residents groups concerned they’re about to lose their homes, or er their parklands would be taken away, and I got involved with some of the Lambeth groups and eventually an organis-, it wasn’t an organisation, it was more a network or all the groups, but there were about 250 groups around London. And it was called Alarm, which stands for All London Against the Road building Network, and I, in addition to doing the Lambeth stuff part time I came to chair Alarm, er, er, which kind or brought all these groups together

And, and, when, when was this now?

This was

I know I said dates didn’t matter but

Erm, er no, this was probably 1985/86

Yep, ok.

And the campaign went on for, until the 1990’s. I’ll tell you a little bit more about what happened in 1990. Er but essentially we brought a little bit of a new approach, because, a number of the residents groups were very keen to say put the road somewhere else, and the richer they were the keener they were to put it to other areas. So Dulwich was very keen to put the road, to put the roads through Peckham and Brixton, er, because they claimed it would be good for the economy of Peckham and Brixton and bring jobs. So the fight was, the only golden rule that Alarm had was everybody fights all the roads, so let’s not put it somewhere else. And I suppose a secondary principle we had was to look at alternatives, and we saw public transport as, walking, cycling, as the alternatives to roads, and in this sense we were a, a little bit different from the battles against roads in the early 1970’s, which were against roads, but it was homes before roads. So they were saying build homes, don’t knock down homes, rather than concentrated on roads. No we said don’t build roads anywhere, but there is a transport alternative. And it was, it was a huge campaign, you know, tens of thousands of people across London involved, and eventually all the roads except two, which, which go to the M11, in 1990 just shortly before the local elections in London, the Conservative government was afraid it was going to lose local councils right across London because of the road building schemes, er they dropped all the road schemes. It took us back a little bit just how quickly they did that, but, but it was a significant success. Except two. And these were two that pre-dated the, the, this package of road schemes. One was the M11 link road, and other was the, er, became known as the Oxleas Wood Road, er er it was the bridge across east London going through Oxley’s Wood and erm. So those schemes remained. And, erm , the M11 people these were people like sister networks Leyton had become part of Alarm so, when we won in 1990 the battle continued on Oxleas Wood and M11, and it because part of something wider, a national body, which emerged called Alarm UK, er, which, because the government in 1989, it, er, wanted to build, er, what they describe as the er, proudly describe as the largest road building scheme since the Romans, and erm they erm er, this was new roads across the country, and kind or taking advice from Alarm London and modelling itself on Alarm London. Alarm UK er, developed with about 300 groups around the country, including the M11 link road group, and I came to chair alarm UK, and it was really, sort of wearing alarm UK hat, that in the early 1990s I got involved in the M11 link road campaign.

Erm, that’s brilliant, and we’ll, and I’ll come to ask you more focused questions about the M11

Yeah, yeah,

In just a second

Yeah sure

But I’m interested in, I guess I’m interested in the politics of I guess Alarm as an umbrella group

Yeah, yeah

Erm, one thing that struck me when I was reading various articles about Alarm online was, just was how, sort of sort of a broad alliance of er people it entailed. So I just wonder if you could say a little bit about, about that.

It, it, it was its strength, you know, it, it, it’s the broadness of the alliance, the diversity of the groups, was its strength. It also made it hugely difficult to, to, to keep together.

Yeah

Because, people were coming from, with a small p and a big p, different political backgrounds, different cultural backgrounds, some people were much more experienced than others, some people had different ideas of tactics, and that was probably the thing that was most problematic. We all knew where we were going, and once we’d all decided that we were, the thread that held us together was no new roads anywhere. That was a struggle to get there. But there were enormous differences in how to achieve it. From people who wanted to, who’s experience had been, to work inside track, to write letters, just to go and see MPs, I I don’t think anybody disagreed with that, that was part of it, er, but others were saying no you’ve got to be much bolder, it’s got to be street demonstrations, not direct action at this stage because the roads weren’t being build, but big sort of in your face demonstrations, er, some of the people, particularly those who were from the er, er, who were experienced in the Archway Road Campaign er, they, they were keen, very keen on erm personalising it so that they would er go and visit the minister who was involved, at his home

Uhum

Usually, preferably, in the early hours of the morning [laughter]. And others were saying no that’s not acceptable, an, and as I was sort of chairing the whole thing, to some extent coordinating it, perhaps my main role was to try and keep all these disparate people together, which we just about managed but

But, but, how, how did you do that? Eem, what was your, what was your position to start with, and how do you even begin to mediate between that diversity

I, I suppose my position, I came originally, as I said through the Lambeth groups, and how I came to coordinate it really or chair the meetings, was I think, the early meeting of the groups coming together were just er, er well they were out of control. Erm I mean there was one example of two women just chasing each other round the table because they disliked each other so much. Er er an and the poor person who was Charing was just ‘please sit down, please sit down, plea, don’t’ And the xxx were none of this please stuff [laughter] you know, they just looked at him and you know carried on round the table. And, and I think I was asked to chair one of the following meetings, and for one reason or another I was kind of able to hold it together. Why er, I don, must have been something to do with myself, but er er, and although I was coming from a kind of, definitely from a more radical side of things, I, I, I think I did see above all, that the importance was holding the network together. Cos I felt it was split up, if we split up, if we split up, er that just meant that er you know, the other side was going to, was going to make it much easier. Erm I suppose a lot of it was going in and talking to people outside meetings going to see them, going to speak at their own meetings, getting to know, critically getting to know them individually, er but, er not just me but small groups of campaigners getting to know other groups of campaigners, socially individually, it was, it was, it was very unstructured form of campaigning. I think some people were not terribly comfortable with it, er, but it was, ‘well lets meet for a coffee’ ‘let’s all go for a drink’ erm ‘let’s get to know each other’ er and, and that was, it was networking, it was the basis of it. And once people got to know each other, you know, they were less inclined, on the whole, to chase each other round the table. Sometimes they were more inclined [laughter] but on the whole they were less inclined. And erm er, so I think that was, It was that kind of, that was the approach. Erm yeah, it it’s, we’ll never know whether there might be people who will be much keener and much more structured approach with a hierarchy and with people having particular roles er, now, if they were keen on that they may just have decided not to get involved. You know, they may have just walked away, or never got engaged. Erm but, it was, it was a flatter, none of this was based on theory, it was, just happened, you know, I, I, I, there was no kind of, we, we were all learning, particularly me, as we were all going along. Erm, so it wasn’t any kind of great idea that there must be, you know con, you would now call consensus decision making or anything like that, it was, it was, it kind of just evolved

But organically you were working with consensus

That’s exactly what we were doing, that’s exactly what we were doing. We were organically working with consensus, b, b, building up a network, which, which didn’t have hierarchy, an and although I chaired the meetings, did a b, did a bit of the coordination it was all sort of very clear that I mustn’t become the one and only face of the network, I did a little bit of media, but others did it as well. Part of the reason for that, an and this probably was a little bit thought through was if there is one person heading it up, now that one person is discredited by the media or by the other side, and their head is chopped off as it were, then it leaves a headless organisation

Yeah, that makes sense. And did you see, did you see your work as er political in the, in the broader sense or did you see it, was it purely environmental, or what did it feel like it was political with a kind of bigger P?

No. It wasn’t political in the sense that it wasn’t overtly anti Thatcher and a lot of, of bodies at the time were. We could never have been that because we were bringing in community groups, individuals who would have been Thatcher supporters. So it wasn’t overtly political in that sense but yes, while it was largely environmental, I think I, I personally say it as community based as the communities fighting back. But we, we were political in the sense that we were involved in the political arena, that we were putting forward what we regarded as political public transport, and walking and cycling alternatives. So in that sense we were involved in politics but that not, we were very careful not to align ourselves to any political party. Er, I think for two reasons one: if you do that your fortunes ebb and flow with, with the fortunes of the political party, but secondly if your bringing together communities, your actually bringing together people of all principle persuasions.

Absolutely. Erm, so how did- lets talk about the M11 a little bit- how did that erm, come into your awareness? How-

Well that was part, that was part of one of the campaigns in Alarm. It was one of the few campaign that moved on to Alarm UK. Alarm UK was structured in very much the same way as Alarm was. By that stage perhaps we were more deliberately structuring it like that, er because we felt it had worked in London. The M11 became one of the big campaigns.

Where were you living, sorry, at the time?

I was still living in South London.

Still living in South London.

I didn’t move to Leytonstone until much, much later

Ok, post M11

Yeah, post M11. Ironically post M11, yeah, yeah. Urm, the, the, so yes. So, so M11 was, because it was so close to the bulldozers coming in it was you know one of the, and perhaps because it was in London, it was one of the kind of er top campaigns. But I, I think, just for me to understand the history of the M11, and actually the surprising nature of what happened there, er you have to go back a few years to Twyford Down

Ok, great

And, and, you know, that’s where the direct action exploded into er, into a real force. And I think it was local people working alongside direct action activists were, they lost Twyford Down but they became a force. The next, the next place here I think the government thought direct action would be big was in South East London through Ox-, the road through Oxleas Wood because it was ancient, it was pretty, it was a wood, it was famous, and that’s the reason why they dropped the road, because of the threat of the direct action from local people. What they never expected was that in an unfashionable part of urban North East London that direct action, and, and essentially relatively low income communities, would explode into such a protest

Uhum

They, they actually expected, I think, well I now know because they’ve told me subsequently, they, they, they, they, they now, they, they expected the M11 would generate isolate pockets of protest, that because it was unfashionable, it was North East London, it was loads of you know, low income communities and they decided it wouldn’t be fashionable for environmental activists because there was no hills or trees around, er, they’d be safe to go ahead. Er, so, erm, and initially we were involved in the early campaigns as the bulldozers were, were threatening, I’ve got to say, I felt, I felt they might have been right.

Yeah, absolutely.

Be- because, as you’ve probably heard from the M11 people, in the early days Richard Leyton and co., with a little bit of help from Alarm, as they were part of Alarm, there was only a small group of people, a small group of people who met in, in a a, in a church hall, and, and, it would have been almost inconceivable that in those early years, in the early 1990s that that small group of people would be involved in what turned out to be the longest, er, er, campaign, the longest period concentrated direct action that the UK has seen. Now-

Does that remain true?

I don’t know. It’s a great soundbite; I don’t know whether it remains true. [laughter] I hope it does. [laughter] On roads certainly, yes. Erm, I’m just not quite sure about other, you know some of the peace movements might have overtaken it. Erm, but certainly on roads, and you know, we felt, we, we looked at Twyford, we’d seen what happened in London, and we felt, this needed to become big. This needed to be getting everybody involved. But certainly in the early 1990s we never thought that would, we, we, we thought we were fighting a losing battle.

So what was it, do you think that mobilised that extraordinary explosion in interest?

It, it, it’s very hard to pinpoint it. I mean, what I think it was, is that a number of the people, the activists who had er cut their teeth at Twyford Down, it’s not quite as if they were-

I’m just peeping to make sure the battery’s still fine

Yeah, yeah, right going on forever, yes

No, no, no, not at all. I’m just making sure that the battery, the batteries might need changing at some point, so I’ll keep looking down

Ok. So, it’s a number of the activists who were at Twyford actually became quite interested in the demographics of the M11. You know, because although they were coming from an environmental perspective a number of them, not everybody, certainly not everybody, were purely green environmentalists. But a number of them also say hang on a minute, there's a social dimension to this.

Yes absolutely

You know, why should it be that low income communities are going to have this dreadful road imposed upon them. And so enough activists, enough to make a critical mass came and got involved in the M11. And then what happened, and I think what tends to happen with direct action is once a critical mass gets involved, and ideally with local residents, and starts making a little bit of a fuss so it becomes, gains a profile, that others pile in. And a lot of direct action is, I think, works on emotion. And that, that’s not a criticism that’s, you know, that’s a good thing, er, that’s what drives it. Er, er but its emotion very often rather than deeply thought out. And there was in the 1990’s the feeling, there were a lot of activists around, looking for the next site battle, and the M11 became the next site battle.

And I suppose the, er vast number of empty houses

And the vast number of empty houses, that’s right, the idea then of rather than defending a green open space as it was at Twyford Down was defending people’s houses, and when the activists got involved and met the residents, you met the dollies of this world. Then it became you know, something quite powerful.

And do you think that actually shifted the narrative of the wider movement in some sense?

Oh yes. Oh, oh significantly. I think the M11 did a number of things overall, although as we know, the road has been built, but I, I think it shifted the narrative of the wider direct action movement from simply being a green movement, to be you know a green movement that also had er, er deeper social roots. I think it did that and I think on the road building scheme of things it ensured that erm the M11 was effectively the last major urban road to be built in England. Er, Glasgow’s built some since, but er to be built in England, at et that time there were M11 type roads proposed in many cities in the country. They never happened, and I think people realised no longer can that happen because residents are going o be up in arms and they’re going to get backing of a wider activist movement. So I think the M11 had a significant effect on both those things, of moving things in a new direction.

Em interesting. So Alarm, Alarm’s initial involvement was with the Richard Leyton’s of the area rather than with…….

Yeah, Yeah Absolutely

Rather than with the Earth First Donger types

It, it, it was it was. It was kind of XXX. It was Alarm and Alarm UK was essentially the Richard Leyton’s type person initially .but at the very end of Alarm London, before 1990 erm the young founders of Earth First made contact so Alarm unlike a network rather than an organisation but unlike the kind of bigger NGOs, Greenpeace was always a part because they they do their own direct action., but unlike the others involved in road building like Friends of the Earth even, eh Campaign for Rural England RSVB none of them er embraced direct action. Friends of the Earth had a love/hate relationship with it and eventually embraced it but, but, they didn’t initially. .Eh although Alarm was probably rooted in the Richard Leyton type communities, what we did from almost day 1 was we embraced direct action and we embraced direct action activists. And during the 1990s there were Alarm UK but there was also Road Block, eh, no Road Alert, Road Alert and we worked very, we were sister organisations sister networks. Alarm UK was erm networking amongst the Richard Leyton type community groups and Road Alert was networking amongst the er Direct Action activists, but you know we were we were we worked together we did conferences together, we… and therefore it also meant that we er were very comfortable working together in somewhere like the M11 where the people merged almost as one.

And did they merge almost as one? Did they

To some extent but not entirely. Erm I, I think more at the M11 than anywhere else, erm but even people like Richard Leyton and most of the people in his group never quite took direct action. Some of them did, and as I say, more of them did than I think local residents elsewhere. Erm perhaps they felt they had given their, given their income levels they had less to lose, I don’t know.. but but...or perhaps they were of a more radical mind-set anyway. More of them merged but there still XXX and it spills onto the Heathrow stuff right now. There is still a bit a bit not of a division. They’re aiming for the same thing but there are, there are residents who are.. who are on the whole 90, .. 80, 90% wouldn’t think of taking direct action and 80, 90% of direct action activists believe that is the way forward.

The only way forward?

Erm, the only way forward for them. There are some direct action people, perhaps I think who were more in the early 1990s when it was becoming a newer sort of thing who felt that direct action was the only way forward. I think most now would accept it is it is not everybody but most would accept it works best when it’s complimentary to other forms to other forms of protest. Er and I think and I think that began to emerge in the M11 protest and in some of the other anti-road stuff in the1990s.I think both, both residents and er activists began to realise that the other was actually quite important to the wider struggle.

So aside I mean from tactics there was sense of kind of animosity between the……

No, no

There was not was no sense of animosity between the…

No, there was no sense of animosity…...In fact….in the M11 there was none at all there was a strong bond between local residents and the activists.

And largely I suppose that must have been partly because eh residents that were not, that were less sympathetic took the money and left, so that the people who were remaining were…

I, I think that is probably right. I, I think they took the money and left or other residents perhaps decided I don’t want to get involved in this sort of campaign and XXXX never know because XXXX never involved so never know what they would have done.

But were there people still living on the roads then on Claremont Road on Coleville? Road in those rat roads ehm that were that remained but weren’t involved in the campaign?

Not very…Latterly not very many. Most were involved.. er.. yeah I mean although it was a small group of kind of people that actually met with Richard Leyton and co.. erm the latent underlying support they had was quite large. Some I think most of those people living locally were involved in some way or another. Er …There would have been people who took the money and left there would have been people, particularly in Wanstead who just weren’t involved. There was very little local opposition to what was happening. [laughs] I know there was very little local opposition to what was happening. But there would be a lot of local people who didn’t get actively involved.

Local opposition to what was happening in terms of the activists

Yeah, yeah

Rather than the road building?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s right. That’s right. That’s right. Erm so erm …..Yeah….I’m just thinking back probably ….there.. there was a merge, a merging certainly in.. in not necessarily what they did but in how they were thinking and in what they were……..the residents and the activists in the M11 which… was quite strong.Cos I can think of meetings em interminable meetings I’ve got to say in planning actions and you know everybody would sitting in a church hall or something on the floor and it would be a mix of residents and activists all aiming for the same thing. Erm even if some were going to be more er active than others …

Do you know now we’re down to one bar of battery so just bear with me cos my paranoia is

No no The meetings were very actively and deliberately erm the consensus style meetings and erm, where everybody was allowed to have their say about everything.

Were you, were you chairing for a lot of these meetings?

I chaired quite a lot of these meetings. Yes, erm and erm it was… I suppose ….a lot of them were about…planning actions …. And the actions were…you know this was quite …erm …risky stuff …and for that reason it was important that everybody felt…Comfortable, everybody had their say about whether they had …what they, what they were going to do … whether they had fears or concerns about it … so I, I think we all got that this had to happen.. er but they would sometimes go on for four or five hours.

[Laughs]

I know, I know. I have such a wonderful memory of the George pub in, in Wanstead because that was where after the meetings.. that’s.. I can run and escape to it

[Laughs]

Upstairs hidden away [Laugh]

By yourself?

By myself. I didn’t want to speak to anyone else.[Both laugh] So I have a wonderful memory of it..erm..it will go on for ever..and I mean ..there would be plenty…I think too much detail was planned at the meetings but there was a feeling at that stage, that everybody who was going to be involved in an action and sometimes that would be 50 to 100 people for the meetings were huge .. needed to be involved and buy into every detail of the action. I think possibly now that wouldn’t happen, you know, people would actually accept there might be sub groups who could decide on what sort of ladders needed to be built…to be bought.

And is that.. do you think is that because …the activist movement has matured?

Yeah, I think so, no I think so…cos I think everybody was learning and …and …it..it is matured and it’s it’s …that’s right.

And is it… does its maturation also make it less idealistic.. or….. .

Not necessarily…eh..erm ..

What’s the relationship between kind of idealism and pragmatism there?

It .. if I compare it with what is happening with Heathrow…..

Yeap

And Plane Stupid at Heathrow. Erm…I think, I think someone at Plane Stupid has got the mix right, where, there’s…they’re doing it for idealistic reasons but actually are a little bit more pragmatic in how it’s done….erm.. so that people go off and… you know …make decisions on…on smaller matters that really.. Really other people accept that. Erm, I don’t whether its idealism, I think, some, some of the thinking at the M11 and round about that time, it wasn’t specific to the M11, maybe more, more fundamentalism than ide-, than just idealism, you know, there was this kind of fundamentalist streak that everybody had top make a decision about everything to prove that nobody was more important than anybody else, and that everybody had to have their say every meeting, it was, however ridiculous what they said might be, everything was taken at the same level

And did you, did you subscribe to that belief at the time as well?

No, no, not entirely. Not entirely/. I realised er, I, I, I, subscribed to the idea the y-, y-, you know, the consensuses, the non-hierarchy stuff, I subscribed to that, but not this, this fundamentalism stuff, I realised at that point in time that in order to progress this campaign that’s that what we had to do, and that’s what I’d do for 5 hours before I could escape to the George Pub. But I, but I saw that as something that I’ve sort of got to do, rather than, you know, subscribe to, and I didn’t, and I. I, I latterly, it’s further on, but latterly I got on much better with Plane Stupid because I, I, it was more focused. Er, yeah, so I think it has, there is a danger that if you loses, lose too much of that, yes you can become too professional, because I, I think one of the advantages of the activists is they, although activism is what they did, they were not in that sense professional campaigners

In what sense? Let me understand

In the sense of they weren’t [pause]

Do you just mean that they weren’t payed?

Sort of partly they weren’t payed, yes, yes, that’s right. So there is a danger if, if it becomes too much of a hierarchy it becomes too much like a professional organisation, you lose some of that idealisms, but I don’t think, that you can be a little bit more organised and together without losing that idealism

And were there people that were very highly organised in the M11, or was it all-

No, no there were. There were, and this is the interesting thing that although we had these long interminable meetings, what really happened between the meetings is certain people like Roger Geffen when you meet him, certain people like Roger Geffen actually because they were organised individuals, they actually made things happen. And I feel that although a lot of these non-hierarchical groups it’s a little, it doesn’t quite work out in practice, because what actually, if thing are going to happen, there aren’t people to make things happen. And, and, very often it tends to be the same people who make things happen because their sort of people who make things happen, and i think, I think that was very much a feature of the M11.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah that makes sense. And was everybody there, everybody at, kind of living on the site, were , was everybody involved, was everybody actually involved, or was there kind of a large section of people just really there for the free housing and the lenient liberal sort of attitudes [laughter]

There, there

Did everybody see themselves as in-

No, no everyone, everyone didn’t see themselves as an activist there to stop the M11 link road. Everybody, whatever their motives of coming their though, everybody did take part in the activities to stop the road. So, so, people might have come because look, look this is a great place to smoke weed and nobody asks any questions, that was the [laughter] that may well have been their motivation for coming, but, but they nether the less played a role in stopping g the road. So And particularly in Claremont Road which became famous for its kind of liberal attitudes, in the final days when Claremont Road was being defended everybody would defend it in some way or another, so in that sense there were very few people I think, maybe one or two individuals, but very, very few who were actually there, you know, for a cultural experience, A, a, a, and would, and would disappear when action took place. That really wasn’t the case.

And in terms of your involvement aside from obviously chairing Alarm and chairing lots of the meetings

Yep

I mean did you spend a lot of time on the, on the route

I, I did spend a fair bit of time, cos, I mean, I was still working part time at Lambeth Public Transport Group which was useful cos that kept a bit of money coming in, erm but yes, I did spend a lot of time on the route and I actually , I took direct action. Er, er, I didn’t, I didn’t live there, I lived in South London, and, and, quite a lot of people didn’t necessarily live necessarily on Claremont Road, or on the site all the time. A few people did, but a lot of people would live there some of the time, but also live with their homes some of the time, and, and, kind of into the area. Now I didn’t really live there, partly because I was working in Lambeth, but I was up there a lot, yes. At, at the height, over that eighteen months I spent a huge of time up the M11 link road. Some, sometimes taking a bit of direct action, sometimes not, er, er eventually my role became more er more media, er because I was fairly comfortable doing the media, and a lot of the people really weren’t very comfortable doing the media, and also I think I was sort of trusted to, to put out the message that people wanted to be put out because there's a real danger if, if you’re a media spokesperson you say whatever you want to say yourself, er so eventually I became perhaps the media, one off the main media people. Er you know, I quite like doing media, I feel quite comfortable doing it, and people were fairly comfortable me doing it.

Letting you do it.

Eh?

Letting you do it.

Letting me do it. They let me do it. Partly because, yep, partly cos they felt I could do it, and partly cos a lot of the people just didn’t like doing it, you know, I was, I quite liked it, yeah, yeah.

Erm and do you think the media erm, cos the impression I get is, what I’ve heard a lot of people say is that the media will latch onto the kind of, you know the scruffiest grubby, grubbiest, ugliest person so-

Absolutely. Er th- the- that was, that was part of our challenge and a learning process of how to some extent, to manage the media, cos they, they, yes they-

Cos it was a hugely successful media campaign

It was. It was. It was, no, it was, and, and , and, that’s right, that’s right, cos day, we, we, high profile an an on the whole getting across our message, you know relatively sympathetic, you, you know week in week out we were getting top stories in, in papers like the independent, Observer and what have you. Front page stories often

Uhum

It helped because 300 people on the roof of a house that’s a nice story. But, but on the whole we, we, we were able, we thought fairly hard about how to project this in the media. Er, because otherwise there is a danger it could have been portrayed in a very, very different way. And, and it wasn’t. Er, er, and we did very deliberately think about well actually dolly’s up for this, little old ladies you know who’ve lived there all their lives and who are articulate, who look like little old ladies but don’t sound like them, you know perfect. A, A, so we very much, you know, Dolly’s an example, but we told th- Dolly to front up the story, we’ll tell Dolly’s story. Er, Richard Leyton and his mum- great story. And so you know we had those human interest, and we, an’ this, this was deliberate. I mean we probably learnt as we went along but it was also you know, fairly deliberate, you know, what, what story can we do. I mean the, one of the big days when there were 300 people on that roof, er, they probably told you about Wanstonia, you know we had an independent state of Wanstonia. Now that was deliberate and it also kind of worked, it brought a little bit of humour into the whole thing, and I remember doing something, going to studio LBC on a Saturday morning to talk, to talk about the independent state on Wanstonia an because it was slightly funny it actually you know one round an interviewer who might not otherwise have been terribly sympathetic.

Um. So did you, do you get the sense that you had the support of the nation, or at least of the city? Did, did-

We had, we had a sense, I don’t know about support, but we had a sense that we were making an impact, not initially, cos I said that earlier on, initially it was very, very hard, but once we got, once we began to build up the profile yes, we had a sense we were making an impact, and we also had a sense that there weren’t a huge number of people saying that’s dreadful, because what we were able to do was portray it as ordinary people losing their homes, er, for example, on one of the big days independent Wanstonia, the police there, and the journalists came out in large numbers and erm, there were a lot of activists on the roof, some of them looked, of whom looked very alternative, but the picture I, I was, I had to go to the media, now the picture I had was of one of the women who’d lived in the house for a long time. She, she was locked on to her washing machine in the basement

With Rebecca?

Was Rebecca, yes. Patsy and Rebecca that right

Patsy and Rebecca yes

Now the pic- Sun journalist was a typical, you know macho Sun journalist ‘any celebrities? Anybody nude?’ I said ‘no, no, you prob-‘ I said ‘If I’d known I’d have done a double whammy and brought a new celebrity, but no, no, we’ve got no new celebrities’ Shit, shit what am I going to do. And I produced this picture, I said ‘actually, what we’ve got is here, not upstairs, but underneath there's this woman locked on, here she is’. Well it, its, he said, I’m not making this up, he said ‘well it’d been better if she’d been in her underwear but…’ [Both laugh] I thought it’s a classic, you know, its classic [both laugh] ‘but no, no she’ll do, thank god she’s not a bloke, she’ll do’. Classic, classic, that’s exactly what he said, but in a sense, he couldn’t get a story of a new celebrity, he, he couldn’t get a story of, of violence, I mean if there had been violence from, because we’re largely non-violent, we, if violence had come in it would have been a very, very different situation, we would have well. But he couldn’t get violence, he couldn’t get a ruck as he called it, so he had to with, make do with Patsy locked onto the washing machine, you know, mum. And its exactly the sort of story we wanted, you know

It’s a great story.

That’s right, so we, we, we actively, worked really quite hard on the media stuff, and I think it probably came through that we actually on the whole got across certainly our narrative. Every single story? No. But broadly our narrative.

I mean its striking now looking back those, those, personal stories, just so, so strong

They’re so strong

And they’re so strong because of the work you did at the time. I’m sure something-

That, that’s right. That’s absolutely right, that’s rights, and people like, people like Dolly are still remembered-

Absolutely

You know, an, and, as who she was.

[Pause] erm, what do you think about moving to that table? I’m just very aware of conversation. Is that- would you mind?

Yes, yes, we’ll annoy, we’ll annoy somebody else

[Muffled talking and moving]

Ok, we’re recording again

Right

Ok so we’d got to Dolly, to characters weren’t we

You know the characters were critical. We just played up the, played up the characters, an and it’s just the classic thing of, we’d the human interest stories and we had to tell them. We told, I suppose we told a little bit also about the reasons about why a road would not work, you know, would generate traffic and all that, an so we backed that up a little, so it wasn’t just you know protest but actually what goes down well is the human interest stories, and we, we desperately needed them otherwise it would be you know ‘rabble on roof of house.

Yeah, absolutely. And people like Dolly were willing and happy to have their stories-

Oh more than happy. I mean we wouldn’t have done it if they hadn’t been-

Of course

Although we’d have tried very hard to persuade them truth be known. We weren’t that worthy, we’d have tried very to persuade them [laughter] They, they were happy to do it. An, and what also worked, I talked earlier about the local people and the activists, I think when people, when everybody saw how we were able to get across our message, activists there supporting local people, I think that helped, you know when, you know the, the bring people even closer together. People began to understand that they were important to each other.

People, as in the activists and the residents?

Yes, yeah, yeah, that’s-

Started to?

Yes, yes, that’s absolutely right. Because the residents kind of mentally understood it would never have been that process without the activists. And the activists began to understand that actually, they, they’re at their most effective when linked in with residents

Yep, absolutely, absolutely. Erm, so, so help me get the various different kind of campaigns in order

Yep

So there was the Richard Leyton campaign which was essentially working against the erm, what was their

There, there was a No M11 group of everybody eventually. Three was, there was the No M11 Link Road campaign, that’s who they were, now they, yeah, so they’d been around, I’m not quite sure when Richard, when Richard got involved, but they were around certainly in the 1980s erm, an and they were representing residents whose homes would get knocked down or would live very close to the M11.

And there was a public enquiry that they were, what was

There was the public enquiry. There had been an earl-, before any of us had been involved they’d been an earlier public enquiry I think, er where I think very different sort of residents had put forward an alternative road scheme.

Yeah

Now, I don’t know very much about this but this, this, this was, I’m not sure the dates now, but this might have been late 70s early 80s, when an alternative road scheme was put forward, but the campaigning was very different

And was that, was this the cut and cover

That was, no I think this was something completely different, or a different alignment. I think they were actually, yeah, I think it was saying the A10 or something er, I can’t, I don’t know the details, but, but it was a different kind, it was a more traditional sort of campaign. It was go to public enquiry, put forward an alternative scheme, try and persuade the inspector without any of the wider campaigning around it. Er it clearly didn’t succeed, and I think they sort of disappeared from the scheme, and then Richard Leyton’s people came in in the 1980s and the threat became really quite real to homes and to communities. Erm [pause] yes, just trying to think, get this in my head, that, that’s right.

And they and Richard Leyton’s lot, that’s just kind of becoming a banner term-

It is it is

Joined, joined Alarm? They, they approached you as opposed to you approaching them-

They, they approached us, in, in, in Alarm London, that’s right. They approached, and they became part of Alarm London. But then because their scheme was still going on they because an early, early, didn’t really have members but, er, er an early group that was part of Alarm UK. Er, so yes, they approached us, an, and what Alarm London did was to some extent we helped, we did brief XXX on how to campaign, how to deal with the media, er and we would go and see people and so on, so, so and I used to go on a regular basis then to their, to their meetings.

As a representative of Alarm?

As a representative of Alarm, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yep.

Then, so the Earth First lot Dongas all of that those people, they came in later-

They came in later, there was a little bit of, there had been some contact before Twyford Down, particularly with Earth First, with a guy called Jason Torrance erm, he and, it’s quite a good story, but it’s another story, so I won’t go into it [laughs]

Oh, really

Yeah, well, he and, he, Earth First in the, in the states by then had been going for a long time. Now there hadn’t been an Earth First in, in Britain by 1988 maybe 89, this young guy, very young guy, maybe 18, turned up in an Alarm London meeting, and he was from Hastings and he and his school friend from Hastings set up Earth First UK and so they came and they wanted to get involved in the anti-road stuff, so this kind of preceded Twyford Down.

Ok

So before the Dongas and before the activists got involved Jason and a few other direct action people were looking for, were thinking about direct action er on road building and I think they did bits and pieces which weren’t high profile and weren’t terribly successful. So, so we had established links with Earth First, erm so sort of prior to the Dongas and prior to the Twyford Down, but er, and I think Jason probably he got involved a little bit with Richard Leyton, er in the early days, but, but essentially your right, it was, it was post Tywford Down that the direct action activists really came into the M11 link road.

Umm, ok. Erm I keep having, I keep having erm, figuring out what my next question is and then getting carried up, carried away with the story and forgetting where I was going, where I was getting with something. Erm, I want, I do, relatively soon I’m going to start to ask you about how it, how it kind of, back to your activist career, and moving on towards aviation protests because that was the next thing

That was the next thing.

I’m just really, I just want to be really kind of clear that the, the first big environmental movement really in the UK was the roads. The first kind of radical direct action was, the roads was kind of the genesis of that. Is that right?

The, the roads was the genesis of i. Yes. There's always been I suppose CND and the peace movement, had, had take-, they’d, they’d had a history of civil disobedience, erm, it was slightly different though cos it wasn’t kind of rooted in local communities, but, but, there was, there was that civil disobedience heart, but that apart, the first kind of, yes the genesis of direct action activities that we now know, er were rooted in the anti-roads movement. There, there were really erm I mean Alarm London was radical in a sense but it didn’t need to take direct action cos roads schemes were dropped, but the so called anti roads movements of the 1990s it was the genesis of what we now see, of the direct action movement.

Will you just, I’m going o just, get a note, get a bit of note paper that I can scribble while you’re talking

Right, right

Because I keep, things keep coming into my heads but I forget

Ok, ok.

Erm, erm so yes, so, so carry on

So, have you got a, do you want a pen, are you alright?

I’ve got one right there, and here’s yours, thank you.

Yeah so, and that’s why I keep referring to the learning process, because it was a learning process for everybody. Erm, so, so there was the direct action, and I think, I, people have often asked me why the direct action movement started on roads and why it was started on roads only in the UK, because it wasn’t happening in other parts of Europe. I, I think it started on roads simply because I think at that point in time road building was seen as perhaps the biggest environmental threat, and this was sort of before climate change, this was you know destruction of the countryside, air pollution, noise, all the rest of it, it is a bit, I think that’s why. And people have speculated about why it was happening in the UK, was because, was possibly linked to erm the policies of the Thatcher government, where a lot of young people felt disposed, others have also said that possibly also the middle classes felt less secure than they had done before, because previously when you went into a middle class occupational profession you were kind of there for life. Now Thatcher shook all that around, so, the thinking, and I’ve no idea whether this is right or not, but the thinking was that there were a lot of people who were feeling a little bit further outside the system than they previously had been, and this wasn’t replicated in quite the same way in other European countries.

What, what was the equivalent in other European countries? At that kind of time

Well, I’m not sure there was one.

Ok. What was the equivalent in the States, what was going on in Earth First in the States for example.

Earth First there was stuff going on there, it was much more violent

Yeah, that’s-

There was direct action, you know, to preserve the wilderness or what have you, but it, it, it was violent direct action which wasn’t replicated on the whole here, and certainly Earth First here was non violent

And what was, what was erm violent, specifically what was happening in the States

Well in was violent in the States, it was, it wasn’t just, I think actually there was violence against people, but the, there was certainly er headquarters of companies were blown up and this sort of thing, so you know, it was big stuff. Now the French have always had a history of direct action, French farmers forever blocking here there and everywhere, and that was, that was continuing. But there wasn’t anything quite like, and the Germans have also taken it, but at, at that time there was no equivalent to the anti-roads movement in the rest of Europe

Ok. Ok so it was, it was a really, it was a very kind of UK centric

It was UK, centric, it was UK centric, yeah. I think that’s right, I think that’s right.

And in terms of, I was reading, when I was reading the articles about your career earlier on-

Oh dear

I was struck by erm how you’ve kind of been in this continuing battle with the department of transport for like the last 30 years or something

Absolutely

How kind of personal has that got, does, has that

It, it, it’s changed. I think it’s changed over the years. Erm, erm, I think they, I think the department of transport have possibly also changed over the years. Erm its, yes, I, I, there was I mean during the anti-road stuff, the was no erm and also in the early years, I did the third runway for Heathrow last time round, you know, there was no, we were on our different sides, we were enemies

Uhum

They had no desire to speak to me, and I really had nothing to say to them. Er now. I think there have been changes within the department for transport, I think both on roads and on airports to some extent. I think for two reasons one is, certainly on roads, the department have lost a lot of, were the big losers in the anti-roads movement, and although some roads are coming back its nothing like the same scale as before, I think also there's a new generation of civil servants emerging in the department, a younger generation who are, who are more aware of environmental issues, er who realised either they want to build roads and runways, er mitigation has got to central to it. They’re also possibly more aware that they’ve got to try and engage without, with-, with-, with er certainly an older generation we’re simply branded the opponents, they now call them stakeholders. And, and [laughs] I know that made me just giggle, I don’t know. But I think a new generation realised they’ve got to engage, and I think a lot of them are more, are more XXX to engage. So in that sense I engage more with the department now than I would have done ten years ago.

And, and willingly, not just pragmatically? Or, or-

Both, both. Yeah both, yeah

And something else he said, I feel like I’m cheating having read these articles

It’s alright, it’s alright, its ok, its ok. It’s called good research [both laugh]

But something else that you said that’s truck me as interesting was you engagement with activism has turned you into a nastier person [laughs]

I did say that, I did say that

Or something, you said something along those lines, that you, that its jaded you, and I just, I found that really interesting

Yeah, I mean, I remember saying that and thinking afterwards, do I really mean those things? But to some extent possibly yes. Yes, I think certainly a more cynical person, perhaps a more realistic person. I don’t know. But certainly going back to Fares Fair and stopping busses in the 1980s, erm I yes, I, I’m probably. Whether I’m less idealistic, I don’t know, but I, I am more cynical about things yeah, and about people than I was then. An’ and part of that is as a result of campaigning, and seeing peoples and authorities reactions to the campaigns. I think that’s probably right.

Because I mean the first thing that you said was what got you involved initially was, was to do with corruption so-

It, it was, but yes it was your absolutely right, that’s a very good point, and, and erm. Whether [pause] erm. That’s set me thinking, that’s set me thinking. But clearly my attitude towards that at the time was different to what my attitude might be now.

Can you say anything more about that, how-

I, I probably can if I think about it tonight but- [both laugh] but it, its, yeah, I think maybe, obviously older, maybe I’m just, maybe just more cynical about how things happen. I clearly got annoyed about that, but whether it was much more than simply getting angry about something that I thought was er wrong I’m not sure. It was certainly that. But I was less cynical, er, and possibly less cynical about peoples motives. Perhaps that’s what’s made me nastier, I, I, I I’m much more doubtful about peoples motives.

And nasty is an interesting word

It is, it is, I’m not sure I

I don’t know if that was your word or mine

No, no it was my word. And I remember using it in an interview and afterwards thinking do I really mean that? Er, and on reflection maybe it wasn’t the right word.

So what is the right, cyn-, cynical-

Cynical is probably the right word, yeah, yeah. Yeah that’s probably the better way. If I was giving an interview now that’s probably what I would’ve used. Nasty’s the one that stands out, it’s much worse

Well it’s a good-

It’s a much sexier word to use than cynical [laughs]

It’s your innate media head

Yes exactly. Indeed, indeed

Storyteller

Storyteller, yes that’s right, that’s absolutely right

Erm so after the roads, what was, I mean there's you, your career that I’m interested in and there's also kind of just the direction that environmentalism

To some extent, yeah to some extent they were together for a while, and then I think they might have diverged and come together again. I think after the roads, on the activism, I think something very interesting happened, I think with the direct action on the roads, it was, it was, there was something very focused about stopping the roads. Once the roads were sort of stopped then I think direct action activism lost its way a bit

Ok

It didn’t have a focus. It, it moved into Reclaim the Streets a bit, and that was an obvious thing to do. I know reclaim the streets was more than just transport but essentially part of it was transport. So you stopped roads to try and reclaim the street from cars and that was a very logical move. And I was kind of to some extent part of that. Er, I went onto airports where I’ll come to in a minute. And, but then what happened with the direct action movement it became much wider, you know, it became linked into the wider anti-capitalist movement, er there was almost an element of anti-capitalism in it. Erm, my view is it lost its focus. This is not, this is not a kind of comment from me on capitalism or anti-capitalism its simply I think the direct action movement. Didn’t have any focus because I’m not sure you can simply take direct action against capitalism. You know, you can take direct action against particular aspect s of it but I think there was a view you could take it against capitalism, and as a result it went nowhere and actually fizzled out. It didn’t come back in my view until it became a focused campaign again. The focused campaign was probably erm GM foods. So it came back in

And that was like late 90s? Is that is heyday?

That was [pause even, even later I think

Early 2000s

I think it was early 2000, 2001. Yeah I think so. Now, and again, and again there was an element of fighting large multi-national companies there was an element of anti-capitalism but it had a focus GM.

Something tangible to fight against

Something tangible. And I think you can, you can use. In my view direct action works when there's something tangible. Be it the apartheid in South Africa or civil rights in America, they were fighting something tangible. And again, then it came back again with the airport stuff, some of the GM people came onto the airport stuff, but on the whole it was new people, because erm climate change was the focus now er for the activists. But again there was something specific to fight so

So, sorry, no go

No go, go, go, go. Go on go on

No, no

No because I could go on forever

No I want you to go on forever

[Both laughing] no, no, no, no. Five, five hours later, you’ll also find that George Pub very attractive in Wanstead

Erm, no you say, you say what you were saying

So I think direct action there has been a, it disappeared for a while, it lost its way. Very interested to speak to Roger Geffen about this because he got involved and then er he got involved in the anti-capitalist stuff and I think got quite heavily involved, and I think speak to him, about it because he he’ll also recognise it lost its way. Erm now to some extent my, I was sort of part of that but not because we took a very clear decision in about 1997 to actually stop Alarm UK cos we felt we had not stopped every road, or been part of stopping every road, that actually almost a super tanker of roadbuilding was moving in another direction. And there's a real danger, as somebody though, we’re going to stop it right now partly because it’s a good story, it’s a success story at, at that time, but also there's just a danger that organisations hang, or networks hang on until there's just three of you upstairs in the back of a pub, you know, pretending your still, you know, Alarm UK. There's no purpose so we stopped it. Now I think my, my, my own feeling then was of relief. Long intense campaigns for many years, I think I want to move on, not necessarily out of the world of the small p politics, but from this er fairly intense campaigning. But then [laughs] the aircraft, aircraft noise became a big problem in London, big problem, flight paths were changed, you know, big problem in South London where it hadn’t been before. And people said to me ‘It’s a problem John. You know about this sort thing’ so I said ‘I know about campaigning’. We need a campaign now, I’ve got to say, although I realised I knew very little about airports, virtually nothing about airports or aviation my initial though was do I really want to do all this sort of campaigning all over again. Thought about this in Scotland for at least two months, do I really want to do it? I though no, no I don’t want to do this. Came back and you know, partly personally I suppose aircraft noise was a problem for me, if it hadn’t been I’m just not quite sure I, what I’d be doing. So it’s partly there was that and there was also well yes I do know what a campaigns about, you know, I’ve done it before. So that’s how I got into the airport campaigning. Er so it was really to do with the aircraft noise and then a few years later the plans for a third runway emerged and to be quite honest fairly, I suppose with my eyes open fairly systematically you know I tried to replicate in the airport stuff what we’d done in the ant-roads movement. So we have a, a, a, a national network called airport watch, which I was kind of instrumental in getting together, it’s very like Alarm UK, it’s a network etc. etc. And although I’ve been coordinating it, I chaired it for some time and er HACAN which is the Heathrow group er its it, it’s like a regional campaign group and again, and although there's a little bit more hierarchical and its committees and all that sort of thing erm it, its style of the campaigning we used in the third runway campaign was er, with other organisations, networking, coalition, bringing together er local people, organisations like Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth, direct action activists

Like Plane Stupid

Like Plane Stupid. And deliberately going out to search for Plane Stupid. You know, I didn’t dream up the name, I’m, I’m, I’m terribly jealous it’s the most wonderful name in the world.

It’s a very good name

It’s a great name. But, you know actively bringing that together. So I suppose my bit in aviation which I never thought would last very long is, is, really, it’s less, it’s a bit of a learning curve, but less of a learning curve, because I’m applying the lessons of the anti-road stuff

Uhum, uhum

And, and a XXX of direct action which I suppose went into a dip and then came out again. I suppose when I was involved in the anti-road stuff and then closely involved with Plane Stupid, not so much taking direct action this time, but involved behind the scenes

And you weren’t so involved in the GM stuff?

No. Er, I don’t know why, er I wasn’t involved at all. Er its partly I suppose I was getting involved in airports, it may also be that, you know, based in London, it didn’t impact not just myself, but the whole issue didn’t impact on London, in, in the way it impacted on other areas. Yeah, it, it, it just didn’t come into my radar in any shape or form.

And how about erm, how about climate camp and that whole bit-

Oh, yes, that emerged

Of the story

Well this is very interesting, See, see, climate camp is a direct er child of the anti-roads movement. Er, one of the people you may be speaking to is Paul XXX er, if you can do speak to him

I’ve emailed him

Oh if you can follow him up because he’s a little bit erm, he’s a lovely, lovely guy, but erm he’s a bit laid back and he won’t take any offence if you push him

Ok, I’ll push him

Yeah, push him, er now he was heavily involved as an activist in the M11 link road, then he, actually it’s a really interesting story, because he’ll tell you himself that he and very little formal education, but part of his involvement in the M11 he though actually I could do more that this, I could get educated so he went, he went, a paid himself through college and university and what have you, then went to work for Greenpeace, but erm, shortly after Plane Stupid had been formed an the aviation or the runways were threatening Paul, Paul came to see me and said look, I’ve got this idea john and I want to run it past you, it may be a mad idea, in which case you’re the right person to tell me. And he said I think we should have a camp outside power station Drax, and initially I said Paul, your mad, your having people and, are you telling me your having people in a tent in a field in the middle of the north of England in a place nobody can get to and are you, are you even going to change anything. He said well I this, I think activist need to be brought together again, because the activist movement apart from the GMs had sort of gone, they need to be brought together again. And he said his sense is the issue is climate change, he’s passion to some extent was climate change, and he said Drax, I’d barely heard of I have to say, he said Drax is a great emitter of CO2 emissions, it’s the perfect place. Paul, I’m really not sure. In fact I’m perfectly certain that’s not the perfect place

Why, and what were your reservations

Well, just that, I just felt that in this first, I thought a power station, I suppose this is me have worked with linking, helping to link local communities and activist, I thought where is the local interest in a power station, and who cares two figs about a power station

And coal as well

And coal. And really in a place where no one’s heard of. Somewhere near Selby in Yorkshire, who’s heard of Selby in Yorkshire? Unless you come from Selby in Yorkshire. I though this is just going to die a death, it’s going to look ridiculous, it’s bound to be rainy and there’ll just be a handful of activists, and it will just be depressing for everybody and demotivating. And, and that was, I was proved entirely and completely wrong, utterly wrong. And And er Paul was right, he, he had pinpointed something that activists wanted to get together, and they wanted to get together on climate change, and people went in large numbers. And Io even went to Drax

I even went to Drax

You even went to Drax [both laugh]. And, and, and, I didn’t actually stay, it wasn’t because I was trying to XXX for other reasons I could only go up for a day. Erm but it was, the reason I went up was to try and, Plane Stupid had sort of started with only a handful of us, and again it’s the link, Jason Torrance who was Earth First, I said to him when I was starting off the airport stuff ‘you know, the direct action elements missing’. And er

From Plane Stupid?

Plane Stupid hadn’t started. From, from sort of, from the airport campaign

From the airport campaign. Ok yeah

There, there needs to be. ‘Well look’ he said, ‘there's two young guys who I know through Greenpeace, an and he’s doing an anti-roads conference’ or maybe not anti-roads, but some sort of conference, and there’ll be activists there, why don’t you come and meet them, er cos there interested in climate change, they’re interested in direct action, they may be interested in airports.’ So I went and met them, two guys called Joss Garman and Rich, Richard erm, I did remember his second name on the day I met him so that was fine. Er and, and they were very interested. So really the three of us, plus another guy called Graham Thompson were, were the nucleus of Plane Stupid

Ok

But we hadn’t got any activists, and Jonathan and I said well, look if we can’t recruit activists at somewhere like Climate Camp at Drax, then there's no future for Plane Stupid, there’s no future for direct action in aviation. So that was my reason for going to Drax and erm, er we, we did a workshop there and for the first 10 minutes if you do a workshop in Climate Camp you, they don’t always start on time, but after 10 minutes you go well hang on a minute, this is late even for activists. And er, after 15 minutes more people came in and that was really the beginnings of Plane Stupid. So, so there are links here between people who were involved in the anti-roads movement and who are kind of the main people behind, thinking up the idea of Drax and er, starting the whole, the whole Plane Stupid notion.

Uhum, uhum, uhum

Er, yep so climate camp actually became hugely important in the aviation, it became hugely important generally, in the in the fight against climate change, but for, for the Heathrow campaign, when Plane, Plane stupid actively lobbied, as much as you can lobby in the activist movement, people pretend they don’t, you know, you pretend you don’t, you pretend you sit round for 5 hour meetings and all come to a consensus, but actually Plane Stupid lobbied very hard for the 2007 climate camp to come to Heathrow because it would be, it would be critical in the fight against er the expansion movement of Heathrow. And I think it proved so. Erm, I saw very, as you probably know

Would you like more water?

No I’m fine. If, if you’ve read about me, as you probably know I saw very little of the climate camp at Heathrow because I was, there was an injunction.

Yes, yes

Yes, and although I could go to the climate camp, and certain prescribed areas, and I could talk to people, and even give speeches, I could talk about direct action or civil disobedience. So you know, it’s all a bit. So, but, but, but actually they played wonderfully into our hands, this, this injunction thing. First of all they tried to injunct all these respectable organisations like RSPB and CPRE and you know, we were sitting in the court, the high courts, the high court of justice, and although it was a little bit nerve wracking because particularly HACAN were injuncted, and they could lose all their resources, it was a little bit nerve wracking, but nether the less, the nation’s press were there, what an opportunity, you know, no press release can do this [laughs]. Here we were, Plane Stupid, Heathrow Campaign, the centre of their daily activities, you know, we meant to send a letter of thanks to Heathrow airport for, for you know, for giving us such good publicity. Er so, so climate camp did play a hugely important role, and, and in many ways, it, it was the child of the anti-roads movement

I, I mean tell me, it was the child of the anti-roads movement and in this sense it was the parent of Plane Stupid

And in a sense was the parent of Plane Stupid

Or a kind of parent

Yes, yes that’s right

And just in terms of the anti-capitalist movement I’ve always had a, had the impression that erm, climate camp was quite explicitly ant-capitalist

It, it was it was

So just how did that kind of tie in, the ant-capitalism, the environmentalism, can you just

It, it was explicitly anti-capitalism that’s right

And do you think that was successful in that instance or did that feed into losing its way or

No I don’t think it

Can you just talk-

No, but yeah, it was, it, what the anti-capitalist bit gave there was a quite a strong critique of what was happening in society and it, an in the, and in the environmental movement in environmental campaigning. So there was, there was an underlying critique there, but I think by this stage it, it, it wasn’t you know, it didn’t have to be er adhere to all the anti-capitalism critique in order to climb over the style and get into the field you know, you could be, you could be an environmentalist towards an anti-capitalist, but I, but I think it did give a useful basis to the whole thing er, but, but I think didn’t disappear like previously because there was a focus. And I think while the critique might have been for many anti-capitalists the focus was climate. And within that focus there were particular campaigns, perhaps the aviat-, well I think they were, well I think there were at the Drax campaign, the Kings North Campaign, the Heathrow campaign, were specific campaign where I think direct action could work, er, er and that where it differed from the anti-capitalism post anti-roads movement where there were no, where it was just vague and you know were taking direct action against capitalism, and I just don’t

What does that mean?

What does that mean, but it meant something, for people taking direct action against Kings North whether they anti-capitalist or whether they were simply environmentalist they both had a focus in which they could come together. And that was powerful, and that worked. And erm in Heathrow in particular there was added to support, as least tacit support and occasionally active support from the local community, which I think made it really quite a powerful tool.

And, and so tell me about, tell me about Heathrow now. Where, where is Heathrow now, where is Heathrow’s campaign now

[Both laugh]. Heathrow unfortunately is still there with, with two noisy runways [laughs]

And who, and who are the players in the campaign at the moment. Plane Stupid very much so

Plane Stupid very much so still. Plane Stupid and

Airport Watch

Airport Watch er and whats happening again is we’re building er very consciously the coalition that we built last time round. And so it’s bringing together local residents, Plane Stupid Activists, Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth are coming in to some extent as well, er er some supportive politicians

On the left and the right?

On the left and the right. Yeah, this is the interesting thing. Er John McDonnell of course is on the left and Zac Goldsmith who’s er maybe a maverick on the right. They are the best of mates

Oh really!

They are the best of mates. It’s quite extraordinary. And I had a meeting with both of them recently and initially I wanted to go and see John McDonnell and John said I think we can bring in Zac can’t we, I said that that’s fine, I can kill two meetings with you know one stone, and so er, er Zac was sitting there as John hadn’t arrived, and when John arrived big hug for Zac [laughs] I thought this is so spec- Its partly cos they’re both mavericks, and they both have the stand, on the left and on the right, you know, so it’s all, it’s coming together again. But what is interesting is last time round we were fighting the third runway it took a long time, years to build up the coalition, you know to go to Drax, and, and to build up the wider coalition. This time round, it happening, it’s just happening because everyone knows what happened last time round, a lot of the same players, or the same organisation er, and as you know the government announced yesterday its postponing er a decision on the third runway, partly because you know Zac playing a blinder in standing for mayor, you know threatening. But it also because, you know, the coalitions there again. And if the government does go in, tries to go in on a third runway I think it would be much the same as before

Do you?

There's a caveat to that. Er quite a big one, is that Heathrow and the government are much cleverer this time round. Heathrow didn- as any large corporation who rarely loses, they normally expect they almost expect they can, in their case literally, bulldoze their way to victory. Er it’s only once they lose that they’ve got to reassess their, their position and their tactics and aviation see have done that. And this time round Heathrow are offering many more goodies to local communities. People who lose their homes, they’ll be offered, I use the word, the local people don’t like the word generous, but in some ways it is, a relatively generous package if your losing your homes.

Uhum uhum

A lot, a lot of people will be tempted. Particularly if their living in, as many of them are, in low income areas. They are offering er, probably they’ll offer an end to nights, breaks from the noise. Whether all that is enough, to dilute the local opposition, I don’t know. Only time will tell.

And is it, are they promises that will be adhered to, do you think?

That is, that is the big reason why the local community may not fall for them. Because although I personally think that Heathrow probably have learnt their lessons they’ve got to keep to the promises. Most people look back and think they’ve, they’ve lied for 20 years and therefore we don’t believe them now. Now, I, I think there is a bit like the DFT there is a more progressive people who’ve been given ahead within Heathrow, because last time round they lost and people, you, you, you know, I actually knew some of the people because they came out of the environmental movement, er, er and were working for Heathrow, maybe on the sustainability side. It’s rather odd. It’s very odd. They, they would regard themselves, whether the world regards them as progressive or not’s another matter, but they certainly see them, themselves as progressive politically and environmentally, and they have been given ahead in a way they never would have been given if they hadn’t lost the, lost the last time round. So I think probably they believe that they will keep their promises. Whether anybody else believes that I’m not, could be the reason why it won’t get the third runway. So it, it is a changed situation a little bit, it’s also I think, a problem of weariness, have people got the appetite to fight a third runway for another 8 years?

Have you got the appetite to fight the third runway for another 8 years?

That’s a question I’ve asked myself perhaps, I don’t know is the answer. It, it’s not an appealing prospect. Er, er and 100% honest perhaps I’ve got less of an appetite than some of the other p[people who’ve been less heavily involved because you know third runway more so I think than the anti-roads stuff because it’s gone on for so long has probably taken more of a toll on my, on my energies. Er than, than it did previously. Er and I look ahead and I think do I, have I really got the energy, have I really got the appetite? Have I really got the drive to make that happen a second time? The answer is I really don’t know. And but, its, it’s interesting, worrying that I’m asking these questions now that I wouldn’t have been asking 10 years ago. 10 years ago, ‘course we’re gonna stop this, where gonna do what we’re gonna do and you know, and even go to XXX and Drax and Climate Camp to find activists. ‘Course we’re gonna do this, sit on straw bales of course, you know and erm, the question suddenly arise, I mean asking these questions is evidence I’m in a different place than I was 10 years ago.

And is that personally, or is it, is it political

It, it’s both

Is it

It’s both. It, it, its personal in the sense that I am you know I’m older, I I’ve done this sort for a long, long time do I really want, have I really got the energy to do it again? I don’t know, I may have. Putting the, when it comes to a battle you, you know, the old adrenaline might be there. Er but er so it’s so in that sense it’s personal. The political one is the more interesting one. Er I and I said before there are changes with the Department for Transport, there are changes with the aviation industry. Er I’m not at the stage where I think we could do deals with them. Er, much as would love, much as they have been trying to woo me.

Uhum, uhum

It’s me in particular. Over the last few years, er to try and say look, we can all work together. I don’t really think we can. But there must be those, but there's options there, certainly that may exist now, that certainly didn’t exist before. But that’s a very hard one for me, I often think to myself, that I have to be very wary of- Its alright, we can go on for another 15 minutes at least. The, the, er what I have to be aware of is because personally there sort of doing the battle again is, and asking questions about them, I have to be very careful that that doesn’t influence my thinking, say, actually I don’t believe all that you saying, but am I going to cut you some straws. Er actu-, actually there going to provide something better this time. Now, if I’m perfectly honest, and this is not something that I say to campaigners, or publicly, but if, if I’m perfectly honest, I have to be very aware that I don’t use my personal-. If I’m weary of campaigning rather than trying to think of, oh there's something, there's something they’re offering us we can get hold of, you know getting to that place, maybe I’d better just withdraw from the campaign. And let others, you know, take it up. Very different place, but you know that’s probably an honest assessment of where I’m at.

That’s very reflective.

[laughs] it is reflective, yeah

It is really interesting to hear it sounds like you’re at a real kind of juncture

It, it, its, yeah, it’s probably not quite a juncture because I think you know, at the moment I’m on the situation where I’m fighting the third runway to Heathrow, I’m continuing to fight that, I’m continuing to build up coalitions, I’ve been to Plane Stupid meetings, I’m behind some of the actions though I don’t take them at the moment, er but that junct-, but I think your right that juncture could come. And er that would be er, I’m not looking forward to it.

Because?

Because I, I’m, I, because potentially there are two decisions and neither of which I want to take. One is, do I really, am I really looking forward to another 10 years of campaigning? If not I don’t want to take that decision. And the other decisions even worse. Is there a way out for me, buy saying to people well look you may be offered something here which is acceptable? And that would be a whole negation of everything that I’ve done over the last 30 years. In a way, we’re not there yet, but I can see if I look, I can see that juncture and it’s not it’s that- it’s there are two roads neither of which you really fancy going down. That’s the difficult bit. But who knows, it may never get to that

Are there other, I’m hearing a lot that your committed to ultimately to a non-hierarchical-

Yep

Process, and I think that’s really clear, but it its clear also that you hold an enormous amount of responsibility, and are there other people that will take the mantra-

Yep, yep, that’s-

Or that baton

That’s, that’s what I’ve been asking myself over the last little while. Erm , I would have th-, I, I think it’s more likely now because I think what’s happened is a lot of people who have gone through this campaign, they’ve see what happened and I suspect people would emerge. Er,

But your not at the point of being able to make-

No

I’m not asking you to name names but even your head-

No, no, but in my head, in my head, that’s absolutely right. Now there may well be an argument that possibly I should never have got myself in this position, but we are where we are. Erm but my instinct is if I were to er, I was going to say fall under a bus but maybe run under a plane, no, the way to go would be to run under a plane taking direct action [laughs] But I don’t know, but there all problems to solve, an obituary’s the right one, but er the, but if I was to run under a bus tomorrow my, my instinct would be that a campaign, a successful campaign would be formed to stop the third runway at Heathrow. I think in my heart of hearts I don’t think its XXX, and I think the people are all there. Erm but who knows. It’s the, it’s the uncertain teacher

[Laughs]. And we’re back, I’m just going to ask you one more time what your life looks like without activism, sort of I asked you that right at the beginning-

You did

And I’ll ask you again one more time the answer can be the same, you don’t know, but-

I don’t know, but for what I’ve just said, you may-, it may be clear why I said what I said at the beginning that I could live without activism because it may, I may be coming to the point in my life where I’m actually thinking do I really want [pause]. Yeah certainly at this point in time I could live without activism. Er but maybe I’m also saying to myself I could live without this particular type of activism. Possibly I’m looking for something, you know I’ve done something very similar for so long.

A long time.

Yeah. That maybe im looking to sort of do something else which will still be activism of a sort, but I havn’t thought about htat too much. But I think its, to come back to your question, you know having said what I said it probably becomes a little bit clearer why you know I said fairly definitely at the begining yes I could live without it, I think I probably could. For a year or two [laughs]

For a year or two [laughs]. Erm is there anything

Have an extended holiday [laughs]

Yeah, you deserve it.

Thanks

But maybe not to America

Yeah, yeah defiantly not to America. No this is true, this is very true, yes

Yeah, are you, is that, you’re never allowed to go to America?

Well, they they’ve kept it deliberately unclear. I went back a year later, there was, there was a noise conference in America terribly respectable, you know, one of those so respectable they’re boring, terribly respectable conference, and I, I asked the noise conference organisers if I could pres- give a paper on aircraft noise, how you measure aircraft noise which is, I know it sounds tedious, but it’s actually quite a big issue because we believe that they, they, they underestimate the aircraft noise deliberately. And the organisers said yes, yes, yes that would be great, you know this is really a ticket to the conference, but someone from your background would be great co you know you’re talking about the real thing, so I went to the American embassy they kept me there, they kept me there for virtually a whole day, and I said this is the conference I’m going to, here’s the brochure, my name is on it as a key speaker, and they came back and said no sorry. So I said to the guy, are you saying therefore that I can never get into America and he said no I’m not saying that, but I said if I came back next year to go to an even more respectable conference is it worth my while. He said no not really. So they’re very careful not to be branded as saying no for ever, but probably in effect that’s what they are saying. So if you’ve ever been to New York tell me all about it [both laugh]

I haven’t I’d love to though

Yes so would I. [laughs]

Have you never been?

No I’ve never been. I’ve never been. I’m so close [laughs]

Well you were there

I was there, I was there

That’s horrendous, that’s really crazy thing

It was crazy, I mean it was just unreal. It was so unreal you know that the adrenalines going all the time you know there was this, you just think XXX. But er it was after I came back that I suddenly you know kind of it suddenly physically and emotionally hits you.

Was it, was it scary at the time?

Initially very, initially I was quite scared when they took me off the plane. Cos big burly New York cops took me of the plane

Six of them?

Six of them yeah, yeah. And they kept you standing there while all the other passengers, you know said have you been making threats against the president and I said no. And I thought that was a bit scary. And immediately I thought, I suddenly thought you have to wise up and you know maybe xxx at 4 o’clock in the morning, but you could perform here. Er after a while it because less scary because all these interviews by the secret service and the FBI and everyone else. But they were actually, they were strange because they were all very civil, actually even the burly cops were quite civil. But so therefore it wasn’t scary anymore, it was just, just annoying, and irritating and a bit confusing.

Umm

But er, no but because they were actually quite civil as individuals, it wasn’t really scary. A funny mix, that they represented barring from America, but doing it terribly politely. Weird

Very weird

It was. It was weird. That was it it was weird. Yeah. So, so if I stop activism as you say I won’t be going to holiday in America

[laughs] Erm have you, is there, are there any burning issues that we haven’t covered that need to be addressed.

It’s a good point. Er, no. I think we, I think we’ve covered it quite nicely.

And just in terms of the, are there any kind of rounding up reflections on the impact of the M11 on your later career?

Yep.

Just to draw it back to the sort of focus of the interview

Yeah, yeah, I, I think there is. I think [pause] I think the M11 was the first time I saw in a big way the, how, how residents and activists can work together, coming from different perspectives, and coming together to make an impact, and that clearly impacted on what I did, you know, later. Particularly in the Heathrow campaign. Er I think er, I learnt, as an activist I didn’t come from a Donga type perspective, er an and I learnt a lot from, from people who ere who were activists in that sense, erm and I understand how they thought how they work, er strengths and weaknesses, er, an and so I learnt that, that was the second thing it was, it, it was a period where I personally took more direct action than any other time, so although I haven’t done it so much in the Heathrow campaign, largely because of I’m rep-, representing the residents and there there would be difficulties, but bit it needs, I’m comfortable with direct action.

But you’ve never been arrested is that right?

No. Well I’ve never been arrested. Well no, not arrested or charged, I’ve been sort, it was very different in the, in the, it was before all this new legislation came in erm, the M11 stuff most of it, the tougher legislation came in as a result of the M11, but it was, what they would sort of do unless you were really persistent, any you would go in front of a bulldozer several times a day, they’d just haul you out. Er and then you got to know the security guard cos they’d been the same security guards same bulldozers, and unless you really did you know do it too often, too much erm you didn’t get arrested. Whereas now if you, you know, if you if you sat in front of a bulldozer your surely going to get arrested and charged

Um

And it was just a very different when, if if you broke injunctions there, there you know, a legal process was in place, like the Twyford Down people they broke injunctions, and, and because they wouldn’t give a guarantee they wouldn’t break it again they went to jail. Erm, but you had to do something pretty, erer a lot of people in Plane stupid they’ve been charged, how do you do all this, they’re getting arrested and charged left right and centre, how do you do this, it is justified the law is there, the authorities were learning as well. That was the other thing, now we ewre learning and they were learning

Um

And there was just that almost window of opportunity where you could do things, hell of a lot, and erm, nothing really very much happened to you really

Umm

And you, and you got, you’ve got bruises, you’ve got scrapes, and erm somebody’d broken their wrist at one stage, that sort of thing

By scuffling with the police

Yeah by scuffling, yes by scuffling, they would have all the, have all the techniques of, you know, they’d drag you away cos you were always getting dragged away. Er er, er and the press was behind your ears of course you sued, god forbid. Erm and erm yes, so there was a lot, I think scuffling’s the right word, a lot of scuffles, jostling, erm but, you know, you had to do, you had to do quite a lot to get arrested.

Um

And there were a lot of us. You know. They were reluctant to arrest you know in such large numbers. So yes for some reason or another I escaped [laughs]. Yes.

Well I’m glad you did [both laugh] congratulations

Well there you go, there you go. Yes absolutely.

Would have stopped you being very effective

Yeah. It is, it is different. So, so yes there were clear lessons which I learnt at m11 erm. I suppose although, although I had developed media skills before that I did think it probably developed them further, and, and, critically I was saying earlier it enabled me to kind of spot a little bit how to, how to get the press to work to our narrative. So it wasn’t individual media moments, because I think I could already do those, the M11 was the challenge was they could give a very different narrative, how do we turn it around. That, that has helped no end, in, in future campaigning. So there we go

Excellent

I’m afraid that was terribly long

It was it was just exactly the right amount of time wasn’t it

It was alright, it was alright, good, good

Perfect, shall I turn it off, are we ready to

I think we’re ready to stop. I think we’re gonna get thrown out quite soon well

Ok, thank you so much

Name of interviewee: John Stewart

Project: Voices of Leytonstonia

Date of interview: 11/12/2015

Language: English

Venue: The British Library

Name of interviewer: Polly Rodgers

Length of interview: 134.04 minutes

Transcribed by: Holly Gilson

Archive Ref: 2015_esch_VoLe_12

Archive Reference 2015_esch_VoLe_13

Archive Reference 2015_esch_VoLe_13

OK, so, to start with, can you tell me your full name please?

My full name is Richard Matthew Forrester-Paton. Forrester-Paton, yeah. We usually use Paton. I say ‘we’, I suppose I mean my immediate family, but Forrester-Paton is the double barrelled full extent of it.

Can you spell it, the whole…

F-o-r-r-e-s-t-e-r hyphen P-a-t-o-n. If you’re going to get all exact about dates of birth and everything, you probably er, would like to know that I was born Kenneth, but when I was 6 or 7 I decided I was uncomfortable with my name because I didn’t know anyone else called Kenneth , so for sort of – I was going to say non-conformist reasons, but it’s not, it’s for very much conformist reasons, I changed my name to a name that I thought was more normal and changed my name to Richard and wouldn’t answer to anything but Richard and that has stuck.

Ok, fair enough, and what was your date of birth?

Oh, er, it still is the 1^st of March 1977 (both laugh)

1^st March 1977, born Kenneth, known to the world today as Richard. Brilliant, and today’s date is 18^th December 2015. And we are in Richard’s house in Walthamstow. So, to start with can you just tell me a little bit about your grand-parents?

Right, well there’s two sides and they’re a bit different. My mother’s side…her… my mum’s dad was Irish and he came over to… he must have come over in about the 40s, anyway, to Lancashire, round about Wigan I think, and he was a security guard. I think he came from a family of pro-English Irish. I think they tended to be policemen and maybe security guards, it was a very large family, and I think they had a troubled family life with a possibly over-bearing father, and so that family scattered to the four winds and there’s some distant cousins all around the world, but he came over, and ended up in Lancashire. My mum’s mother, Ethel, was basically broadly from the north of England, I don’t really have any detail but there may be a connection in Northumbria, anyway, she was lovely, Ethel, and um, very humble and working class. Um, and, so that’s my mum’s side, it’s basically the more sort of, humbler, ordinary sort of side, whereas my dad’s is kind of bourgeois, um, my dad’s parents both went to Oxford, and so did my parents, but my mum was the first of her side to go to university, and … yeah, so… my dad’s side, they’re religious, my dad’s dad was a kind of a missionary, he was a missionary, and my dad was born in Ghana because they were over there doing religious stuff, and my dad pronounces that…although that’s all a bit…er… unfashionable, um these days, apparently they were quite social justice, and my grandmother helped spread contraception around west Africa. Um…Church of Scotland, Presbyterian, now and again my dad will attribute something like his discomfort with wasted food to his Presbyterian upbringing, um, very moral, you see, and I think basically in terms of family culture, obviously a bit more seems to derive from my dad’s side than my mum’s, in terms of the family I grew up in.

So you’re saying your up-brining was more bourgeois than working class?

Oh yeah, I mean, my mum went to University, as I say, she was the first of her lot, and she kind of got, well actually, she didn’t have a job when we were first growing up because she was a mum, but she sort of, she went back to work eventually and she was head of suicide research in the prison service, it was sort of the field of mental health, but I mean if you come from approximately a working class, lower middle class upbringing, then you go to university, you don’t kind of stay in the same kind of milieu as you began. And indeed my mum didn’t, so yeah. My dad got a job at the Open University, and hence I, we – my sister and my two brothers – grew up in Milton Keynes. And my parents still live there.

And did your parents meet at university?

Yes, they did.

And what were they studying?

My mum did English at St Anne’s, and my dad did PPE at New College, and I believe they met in some kind of third world society, type do goody thing. And…what was I going to say? Yeah, there’s a line in…is it Libby Purve…Purvis…on radio 4…Libby Purvis, she’s a bit annoying to be honest, but there’s a line in her autobiography referring to my mother, who she was an early tutorial partner with. She said ‘I went in to the first tutorial at Oxford’ – she also did English at St Anne’s – ‘I went in to the first tutorial at Oxford, and there was this dour, clever little northern girl’ (both laugh)

That’s a claim to fame!

So that’s my parents.

So then you came along in 197-

1977

7. And your parents at the time were living in Milton Keynes?

Actually to be fair, we weren’t. I have no memory of it, but I was born in Cambridge, on Mill Road, so this was obviously pre-open university, pre-OU. Yeah, I think my mum might have been a mental health nurse at the time, and my brother probably has some early memory of Cambridge I think, anyway, but when I was, I think months old, we went to Milton Keynes and they got a mortgage, and that’s where we grew up, and as I said, that’s where they still are for the time being.

And your dad was working at the OU, as…what was his…?

Still is, just. Um, nowadays he’s a professor of social enterprise, but basically as I was growing up I was aware of him being a senior lecturer, in the business school.

And your mum was not working when you were little but then, went into…

She went into temping for various jobs, I can’t remember…she ended up in the prison service, did she do anything significant before then? Stuck in my mind…prison service…she may have had one or two…oh, Institute of Psychiatry she worked in for a bit in Decrespeny(? – 0.08.10) Park.

Ok, so what are your early memories of Milton Keynes and growing up in that area?

Er, it was quite wholesome, quite nice, really, um, people ask, oh, Milton Keynes, isn’t that a bit weird? But it sort of depends, well, firstly it’s not weird, because if you grew up in it, it’s normal, and second of all, we were close to the northern edge of Milton Keynes, I mean there’s lots of oldish bits of Milton Keynes, and we were in a at least partly oldish bit, we were on the edge of New Bradwell, which is going down and then, onto the northern edge which is actually a small river. I think it’s the Great Ooze, isn’t it? And then you sort of wander up into Wolverton in one direction, or along the cycle track, the railway walk, to Great Linford in the other direction. So it’s all sort of fairly pleasant and local, bit of a community. When I was older…ok, you’re doing the whole early like, so I tell you what, I didn’t get on with going to school. When I was very young. I think, I’m not quite sure because it’s obviously in the mists of time for me, but I think I found it quite traumatic, being separated from my mum and being in this sort of bureaucratic environment, where people were being marshalled according to imperatives that I really sort of couldn’t make head or tail of, and being shouted at for things I’d not really grasped what I was supposed to have done, and it all seemed horrible and random. And, I remember a nice teacher and a less nice teacher. I think when I was first there, there was a Mrs Downy, who was actually quite a sympathetic individual, but then she turned out to have been on a long exchange from Canada, and then the original teacher came back, and she was less sympathetic, and I found it all a bit frightful. And I remember going to Bletchley Leisure Centre on a kind of day trip to see…what was it? Tara and Her Amazing Animal Band, something or other…and I remember my mum actually being in the audience, because she’s sort of come along, but she wasn’t part of the school party exactly, so I sort of wanted to go to her, but couldn’t. My mum sort of looked at me like, I’m sorry, there’s nothing I can do! And I was looking as though through a looking glass, and I was like, but that’s my mum! And then I couldn’t, because I in in this invisible bubble of school, where I had to obey different laws, and anyway, it was frightful. And I think at some point they sent a child psychologist in to observe me and he reported that I was very withdrawn and sort of absent in my own mind. Absent from the lesson and not responding. I don’t know. Anyway, they did take me out of school for a couple of years, well in the end it turned into a couple of years. Took me out of school. Educated at home. My mum who earlier had been involved in the la lechle – I think she was the leader of the local la lechle league chapter, which is a breast feeding support group, um, in Milton Keynes, it has various local groups I think, so she’s been involved in that, and then at this stage she was involved in organising Education Otherwise, which is a sort of network for parents who are educating their children at home, out of school, so then…and I had, yeah, a sort of network of friends and one good friend Ruen who I’d met in Pepper Hill, which was the school at the bottom of my garden, the primary school which I was sort of taken out of. And I was also good mates with twins, David and Laurie, from down the road who were in a housing co-op not Spencer Street but The Laurels, a house just on the high street actually.

The Laurels?

The name of the house was The Laurels. And it’s a big red brick house, a bit like our house, but this was a multiple occupancy… The Laurels was a multiple occupancy housing co-op, and it’s just like a skip away, a hop and a skip away from Spencer Street, which is the other big housing co-op, bigger housing co-op, um so I was good friends with them, and they must have been educated out of school at the time as well, I think we were all sort of hanging around together for that reason, and then at some point – I tell you what else we did together, we learnt the piano by the Suzuki (sp? – 0.12.50.6) method, so we had a piano teacher come round and we sort of rotated people’s houses and we’d learn bits of piano together.

What’s the Suzuki method?

The Suzuki method, well it’s named after the Japanese guy that made it up, called Suzuki, and it’s an approach to learning violin or piano, don’t know if other instruments are involved, but it sort of put, I guess, as far as I gather it puts a lot of emphasis on the feel of the music and the textures of the notes and bringing out the dynamics of feeling, so it’s very good in that sense, but it doesn’t sort of teach you to read music, so on that sort of technical backbone of sight-reading, it’s rubbish. So that was a shame, so I’ve sort of come away having sublimated two or three tunes, like etched on my sub-conscious, which I can still play, but other than that it’s all gone, because I didn’t keep playing it after 6 years, that’s how long I ended up learning. It has its strengths and weaknesses as a method. Anyway, at some point some of those friends started talking about going back to school, or going back to school, which at that point was no longer the little primary – I mean there’s a primary, primary, which goes up to about aged 8, and then there was a – I think we’d call it a middle school, and that went up to 12, it went from 5 as well, but by that point this was a different school, it was New Bradwell County Combined School, just by those two housing co-ops where my friends lived, some of them lived, and um, anyway, so I went back into that, following certain other friends, David and Laurie, and Ruen, when I was 8, and then that was that, then I was back in school.

And so David and Laurie were educated at home but they weren’t necessarily part of your Education Otherwise…

I think they were part of it yeah, I believe so.

So were you doing lessons together and things?

Na, it was pretty informal. I think my dad kept up with a little bit of maths, but the only time we did anything that resembled a lesson was when the education department inspectors came round and we put on a show. I mean we did things, the Education Otherwise group of parents organised activities. I remember going to bring your own food in a picnic in Woburn Woods, and I remember someone bringing coffee and walnut cake which I loved, and I remember going on a trip to the police station and a trip to the post office sorting office. Royal Mail sorting office. Bits and bobs like that, but we did very little formally.

If you’ve got ay memory of it, can you just paint me a picture of the occasion when the education officer comes round and the performance that you enact?

I think that I was in the conservatory, and they were just saying, we’re going to have a chat to them…I guess it was both my parents…I can’t actually remember whether one parent was talking to the officer and one parent was teaching me, I think it’s more likely that at least one parent was talking to the officer, but I was sort of notionally on my own studying, as if that’s what I always did. So I was set up on the table in the conservatory, with books of whatever it was – may have been maths – and they went and well, perhaps they blagged the inspector, I don’t know, but I think there was certainly implying that it was a bit more of a structured day, with more formal learning than we actually did.

And were you aware of that need to…

Well it was pretty obvious from what they were doing. It was pretty obvious. Yeah, anyway, so they had a sort of chat with him, or her, I don’t know, in the other room, I think, to be honest, my mum in particular and perhaps my dad, would have, ideologically my mum – I’m aware of this now – she puts an enormous value on unstructured play, and very low store on formal learning, whereas now I’ve got the other way, I’m like no, let’s learn Latin!

So you’ve got a daughter now?

I’ve got a daughter now, yeah.

We’ll get to that. Um… I’m interested in hearing all of this stuff about, kind of the conventional world being – it sounds like it was somehow, kind of a bit scary, and a bit overly structured and a bit er…incomprehensible…is that - ?

Well that think, I think you’re picking up on was when I first went to primary school. I don’t know exactly what it was. I put it down to being an oversensitive, bed-wetting type, and I found that traumatic, at some level. Er…and they took me out of school. After that, I don’t think there was a sense of conventional scariness, it was just fine. We were just educated out of school. By the time I went back to school it was ok.

And how old were you when you went back to school?

8.

8. And you went back to the middle school with Laurie and David and Ruen. And you were all 4 of you together at the same school?

Yes.

And how was that? I mean you’ve said it was fine, but do you have memories of the transition going back into structured learning?

I remember going to the class, I liked it, it was alright. I remember being given my own activities to do now and then because I was sort of a good reader or whatever.

So you were a good reader? Your education, your out of school time, you were learning, even in an unstructured way?

I was probably… yeah I must have been, I mean I’m sure I read things. My dad would have ensured that I didn’t get too neglectful of maths, I mean you cover the basics, but I’m sure I’d have done some reading. I probably did some writing. I don’t think I had any problems at school, no. But then to be honest, if you come to a family environment where people are educated and you’ve got books around, then you don’t have to push hard. Um, I remember sort of falling out with Ruen when we were back at school, or his demeanour changed, he was being more narkey. I think when people are sort of fitting into larger social groups and different environments, I don’t know, things changed. And then what happened was that Ruen’s mum married a French guy and Ruen went away to France at some point, months or years later, perhaps a year later anyway, he wrote me a letter saying, oh sorry I was mean to you in school, do you want to come and visit me in France? So I went and annually visited him on the Swiss borders, near Geneva, in a beautiful place. So I did that quite a bit and in the meantime I was very good friends with David and Laurie, we went skateboarding together, and also a guy called Bootsy, Nigel Large, very charismatic boy.

Who were Ruen’s parents?

His Mother, when I first met her, she called herself Julie, which again is probably a conformist move, a bit like mine, but her name’s Guilare (sp? 0.21.03) and she was of Turkish Cypriot stock, and Ruen’s dad Danny…

Danny…

Danny…Smith.

Danny Smith! Long grey ponytail.

Long grey hair. Now he subsequently got together with Val.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and he lived in our housing co-op for years. Anyway, another story. This is…

Right, yeah. So anyway, that was Ruen’s parents.

I knew I recognised that name Ruen, I just couldn’t place it.

Um that was Ruen’s parents. Where did we get up to? I was mates with David and Laurie, we skated a lot, we slept round each other’s houses and we had midnight feasts with Bootsy. Bootsy at one point said, oh, midnight feasts aren’t fun unless Rich is there. It was fun! We’d egg each other on and have a good laugh.

And you were how old at this point?

We must have been between 8 and 12.

And tell me about a midnight feast.

I don’t know, we’d probably hide things. I can’t really remember to be honest, I think we just sort of you know, just transgressions isn’t it? I tell you what else we did actually, at some point later we threw…on Spencer Street they’d have a box…they had kind of a small holding out the back…

Hang on, for the sake of the recording, can you tell me what Spencer Street was?

Spencer Street was the larger housing co-op. David and Laurie lived in the red-brick house which was a multiple occupancy housing co-op on the high street, but spencer street was actually a whole street of former railway cottages. We just knew it as The Street. I don’t think I ever used the term ‘housing co-op’ about it. I was aware that it was a bit different and an interesting mix of hippies lived there, and a white witch at one end and my mum’s old friend who used to bake bread at the other end, and various people that we had more or less connection with, so I knew the street stuck out as being a bit interesting, and different, I don’t think I was aware of such a thing as a housing co-op existing. Anyway, so that was Spencer Street, we just called it The Street, it was a pretty cool place anyway, so um, lovely old cottages and out the back on one side they had, um I think some land which they subsequently sold for more development, for more houses, but it had animals, I don’t know if it had hoofed animals, it had ducks anyway, and chickens, so there was a box , there was a community house, the one house that people didn’t live in, and we went in there and I remember fighting over whether we were going to watch children’s BBC or children’s ITV, with one of the sisters of someone we knew, anyway, on the outside of the community house, which was a house that everyone could use, from the Co-op, for communal purposes, for meetings and so on, and watching TV, and one the outside of the community house they had a box for the duck eggs, I guess that people would go and help themselves, anyway, we helped ourselves, we went and raided it for duck eggs and threw them at cars, at moving vehicles. We did that for a bit, then after I went to secondary school I had a different friend Martin, we got into throwing water bombs at cars, but no, when it was still with David and Laurie, and Bootsy, we got the eggs, the duck eggs, and we had places where we’d lurk and wait for cars to go past and we’d throw them and splat the windscreen. Yeah, that was fun too.

Ok, so let’s move on to secondary school. That year you went to Stantonbury? Is that right?

I did.

Tell me about Stantonbury. Is it an entirely ‘normal’ state school, or is it special in any way?

It’s very large. It was set up in the 70s, around, well not that much after the New Town of Milton Keynes, and I think there was obviously some sort of progressive ethos when it was set up, the most obvious, emblematic feature of which is calling the teachers by their first names, other than that it really depends… teaching’s just a relationship thing isn’t it? It just depends on your teacher. I don’t know, I wasn’t aware of any particularly progressive doctrine, I just think it was a school, more or less. Yeah, to be fair, it was probably the absence of things like uniform, or certain sorts of disciplinary measurement procedures, so it’s stuff that I might have been aware of had I come from a more conventional school, but as it was, it was a school. Obviously they didn’t do sets, streaming, they didn’t do that kind of thing. It was probably in the curriculum…basically you take your options from what the exam board gives you the option to do, don’t you? But I think for example in history, I don’t think we did much good history. I didn’t learn about a single king, but I did learn about the…what are they called?...the Luddites, and Boys From the Black Stuff we did, and de-Nazification.

Are you saying that is good, or not good?

Well I wouldn’t have minded having a bit more of a joined up sense of… a bit more of a sweep. I think they were sort of cherry picking… it’s what I remember anyway… bits that had a certain kind of, sort of, progressive value, like the miners’ strike, and the luddites. Well that’s fine, but it would have been pretty good to learn about the Reformation. There you go.

I can sense a pattern here, with teaching you daughter Latin (both laugh), and the rejection of unstructured learning.

I don’t actually teach her Latin. I teach her Old English. So, um, no, yes, it’s true, it’s true, it’s true, what you say. I mean I would learn ballet, but I’d be sodded if I was going to learn interpretative dance. Yeah. Um, that’s true. Alright then where are we up to?

Secondary school. Stantonbury. Were Laurie and co at Stantonbury with you?

David and Laurie. As I said, Ruen had already moved to France, or been removed, all be it to a lovely place. David and Laurie, yeah they did, but Stantonbury’s a big school and it’s basically divided into four bits and they were in a different bit. Um, so, and also they sort of…people kind of moving into adolescence, aren’t they? So their kind of demeanour…priorities changed… I don’t know, I think they just got a bit naughtier, and slightly more disaffected with learning. Whereas I was never disaffected with learning. At some point they took up smoking and they were in a band or two, so there was kind of more alternative culture, which is probably kind of cooler than what I was involved in.

What were you involved in?

What was I involved in? Just mucking about to be honest. I didn’t…I suppose I neglected to mention, if we’re being completest, the last year of primary sachol, I made some other friends, I was still friends with David and Laurie at that point, but probably more out of school, whereas in school I’d made these other friends, Martin and this guy called Sunny, and we did some other Tom Sayer type naughtiness, like finding our way into the school attic. We could kind of steal away into the music room stock cupboard, all the shelves up the walls you could use as a ladder and get into the attic and at some point we found a tank of water, which we thought from the warning from the head teacher in assembly not to drink the water in the cookery area because it’s from a big tank in the roof, we thought this must be the tank, so then we went and bought loads of green food colouring, and we got a stick and hid it under the piano in the music room so we could stir it in the tank and we were going to do that. Unfortunately, the day to execute the plan came, and then when we went in, we hadn’t waited for the last teacher to go from the classroom down to the staffroom, because this all took place over, I guess lunch time, so she did check in the music room, on her way down and I think she caught sight of somebody and said ‘what are you doing in there?’ and by the time she came into the stock cupboard my feet were dangling from the hatch in the ceiling, so that got rumbled, although they never realised that our plan was to contaminate the water supply (laughs).

And so you never went back to the plan?

No, we couldn’t really do that. That was great. So I wasn’t friends with David and Laurie particularly from secondary school, but I was friends with Martin still, and one or two others, I’m not sure what happened to Sunny, but…there’s nothing hugely remarkable, I got on fine in school, I was reasonably well liked. I think my teacher at some stage said, this was at a parents evening, said ‘he’s good, he’s like a swat but he gets away with it because he’s funny’. Which is sort of nice, if not a self-aggrandising thing to remember, but I was alright. I mean, its fine.

Swotty funny kid.

Maybe. What else? The thing is, and this is more meat to your purpose, because there’s nothing particularly remarkable about those years, I think towards when I was 15 however, I initially got wind, there was a green newsletter, Milton Keynes area newsletter which I picked up in the library which had listings for events and on it I saw there was an animal rights group meeting, so then I went to the animal rights group meeting and I’d been aware, I think my dad had mentioned there were such things as hunt saboteurs, and you only have to know what the idea of a hunt sab is for it to be extremely beautiful, kind of romantic, just, you know, it’s just a brilliant idea. I was like, brilliant! They do that, that’s amazing! Um, so then I ended up at this animal rights group meeting and I learned that there was a local sab group and that was obviously something I wanted to do, and I was 15 by then, so I started going hunt sabbing every Saturday, I done it for years.

Tell me about what you remember from your hunt sabbing days

Well, I’d get up more or less early, from August through to October it was quite early, like really, you could get up at 3, because they go cub hunting, but in the full season from November, it’s sort of a bit more civilised. Anyway, it’s interesting actually, you go out into the countryside in a beaten up old van with an interesting motley mix of people, different sorts of people who are attracted to hunt sab groups, mostly pretty cool , sound people, there was some sort of class war punks, but they were very sweet, brilliant individuals, like more in the South Bucks end of things so they weren’t really in our group, but we met up with them sometimes to kind of go on a regional sab together, especially if the week before someone had got beaten up by a huntsman, then we’d all go and do a show of strength, but we mainly sabbed the Bicester with Whaddon Chase Fox Hunt, which is based in Stratton Audley, just outside Bicester, that’s where the kennels were, but we took up with sabs from Northampton, we were based in Milton Keynes, anyway, that was…I mean, it’s an interesting activity, as a first political activity to get involved in because I was once speaking to an old activist of some description and we were reflecting on our previous involvement and she was saying ‘oh right’, she was talking about street activity, she said ‘you haven’t been involved in a street activity?’ and I talked about hunt sabbing, and she said ‘oh yeah, that is what I call a street activity, you’re going out and there’s confrontation’, you know there’s a sort of physical confrontation in it, and that experience, I don’t know, it must mark you in a certain kind of way. It’s different from marches, to be honest, or letter writing, just as a sort of adrenaline, and risk.

And do you think certain types of people are attracted to that kind of confrontation, or do you think that once you’ve been involved in it you become slightly addicted to the adrenaline?

I didn’t have a sense of being addicted, and as for people being attracted to it, um, I don’t know, people get attracted, sort of very…I mean everyone I met through hunt sabbing was pretty cool, but they were quite a range of people, there were some pretty conventional people. There was a farmer from Northants…

There was a farmer?

Yeah. I mean it depends what kind of farmer I guess, but you know, he was pissed off with the hunt trespassing on his land. There was a vicar from Swindon, he said ‘Jesus was a law breaker!’ and then there was the sort of kind of feminist punks from Luton, there was various bits of sub-culture.

Was it overtly radical?

Do you mean politically radical? You mean ideologically radical?

What do I mean? Politically radical. Did it feel politically radical? Do you think that the erm tactics…it was more about tactics…

More about tactics. Ideologically the ethos is more sort of broadly animal rightsish, but even that’s not absolutely…it’s pretty unusual, but there were one or two people who I came across sabbing who ate meat, but by and large people were vegetarian or vegan, so there’s not a sort of rigorous ideology to it, but it was semi-detached from a broader animal rights thing.

So it didn’t spill over into different political positions?

Well yes, but not quite directly. I mean it spilled over in the sense that what you’ve got with hunt sabbing is a really sort of cogent tactic, and it’s a thing that works and that everyone can kind of see, and get, see the sense of, because you don’t really need much explaining to you, because if you’re going and intervening in a hunt to save a fox, morally it’s really clear. It’s symbolic, but it’s a clear practical thing, you know, you go and divert the hounds and cover the scent, so we were doing that, and it’s not like something like a squat or a social centre, it doesn’t have a physical base on the other hand, you’re doing it every week, it’s like a fixture, it’s a regular presence, something that people can kind of refer to and go, oh, the sabs, they’re there, and go and find people and so people are drawn to it and then when you’ve got this milieu with people with possibly with radical sorts of sympathies rubbing shoulders, when there’s other things going on at the same time, people then get involved in it, which is sort of what happened to me because as I say I was sort of 15, 16, I hitch hiked for the first time when I was 16 and it was because I was phoning around I guess I was an action junky, I really wanted to go to lots of demonstrations and so I was phoning round trying to go to this one or that one and then there was one I couldn’t get to. I couldn’t find someone that was driving past Milton Keynes up the M1, and it was something called the Meat Free March in Manchester, an anti-meat march and then eventually out of frustration I went to bed, and I hadn’t found a lift so then in the morning I thought oh, I’ll just hitch hike. Because I remember my uncle – oh, that’s the bit of family history which actually I should have – I missed out, but my dad’s brother, speaking of reacting against the family ethos again, that’s another theme, but anyway, so my dad’s brother, from the same sort of Presbyterian parents, my dad’s older brother, he seemed to be the one wayward tearaway, declined Oxbridge in favour of Keele, because Keele was then the sort of radical centre, er, and declined any sort of conventional career, was deeply involved in the 70s counter culture, and goddess feminism and the peace movement, so my uncle Keith, his name was, so he was Keith Forrester-Paton, but then he changed his name to Motherson, and then he was involved in the peace movement, very heavily involved in that and I knew Keith because he came every year with – he was separated from I guess his wife, if they were married, but anyway, he was separated from his ex, and they’d had a daughter, our cousin Katie, and they would see each other possibly once a year, I don’t know, but they’d see each other at our place in Milton Keynes in the summer. They’d come and stay and we’d have a midnight feast, that’s where I really knew midnight feasts from, it was Keith, and it was a sort of a secret that we were inducted into once we’d reached… when I was about 6 or 7 I was first told about this midnight feast, the institution of the midnight feast, which was kept secret from my parents and we’d go and make a bonfire somewhere and sing native American songs that Keith would teach us to do.

Do you remember any of the songs that you sang?

They were probably along the lines of…I don’t know because they’ve slightly been overlain by songs from the M11 actually, because they were pretty similar.

Well the Woodcraft Folk that I’m doing this project with have a particular interest in the songs of the time, so any memories of songs you have is great…

I think they’re versions of similar kinds of songs, but I think Keith taught us one that was kind of a round, an incantational round – [sings] ‘You can’t kill the spirit, she’s like a mountain, old and strong, she goes on and on and on…’ and it goes round and round. I’m pretty sure Keith taught us a version of that, and some other similar ones. Um, yeah, Keith, I think didn’t have the sort of stability in his life to really er, make a go of family relationships, being a stable father which may have been why he mainly saw his daughter at our place, um, and then later still in life, but by this time we’re kind of grown up, he got really into being a 9/11 sceptic which I’m pleased to say I never succumbed to that. he got really into that. Christ on a bike. And then he died suddenly, this was probably around 2010. I remember thinking it was a little bit too early I think to see the Arab Spring, which he would have been interested by, but I guess it was about 5 years ago and then some of his 9/11 sceptic mates were suspecting foul play which was entertaining, but he did die suddenly, something on the brain, something quite unusual. But um, yeah, so that was Keith, but basically, to tie it back to me, there was a intimated worry on the part of my parents that I might end up like Keith, praps I have, I don’t know, but I think intellectually I’m slightly more grounded, but I don’t know. There you go. With respect to Keith.

And that worry was based on your involvement with hunt sabbing?

What was it based on? It was based on…probably not specifically that I went hunt sabbing, my parents probably thought it some ways that’s a wholesome activity at some level, you know, it takes you out into the countryside, you’re doing something focussed and morally committed, they weren’t pleased when I went sabbing angling, it’s a bit like errrrr… yeah, why were they concerned about that, and when? I’m not sure, but I think it’s a square peg thing, and about reacting against authorised stuff and doing things to the extent that you might cut of your nose to spite your face kind of thing.

It’s interesting, because your parents were clearly reacting – maybe reacting’s the wrong word – but they weren’t conventional people by the sounds of it…

They weren’t wholly, they were by no means card carrying hippies, but there was an air of alternative hippidom…

And there was Education Otherwise, and they were intellectuals by the sounds of it, so there was some kind of rejection…

But they were very stable, and I think actually, on my parents’ part, the common thing for both of them was that neither of them came from really intact family homes. My dad’s parents were probably in some sense stable, but my mum’s parents split up, and my mum’s sister, my aunt Susan, I think never saw her dad again, I think she came to Patrick’s funeral but I think she just sort of cut him out, which I think my mum gave this heroic speech at her dad’s funeral, which she wrote because she was trying to reconcile competing impulses and being true to not closing over what she saw as his problems, but also trying to honour his memory at the same time. It was a great speech, but she used the phrase ‘it was very difficult growing up seeing my Mother castigated by him’, so that basically implies some level of violence, and so that was a broken home, and my dad’s home was not broken, but his older sister, was my dad the youngest? He may have been, I think there were three, so he may have been the youngest, so his older sister, Helen my aunt, I think was in therapy because I think they were more committed to the church, well, at least they voted with their feet. They stayed in Ghana and my dad was lodged in a place called Cunningham House which was a bording school for children of church people who were going off doing church business, missionaries I guess, so that was a thing. It’s a recognised thing I gather, but it’s not something I know anything about, but the offspring of missionaries or people who are doing that activity abroad, sort of palm off the kids on an institution. Which is probably a little…I don’t think my dad had any complaints of it as an institution, but possibly all three of them felt a bit abandoned, that’s certainly reading between the lines a bit, but that’s what I’ve got wind of, as I say, with Helen being peeved about it. I think the kind of thing with my mum and dad was that they got together and they put an enormous premium on a stable family home, which is what we had.

So back to the round peg, square hole…theme, erm, what were you saying?

I was just saying, I’m not sure exactly what it was apropos of, or at what point, there was this sensible concern that being like Keith, or ending up like Keith, is somehow batting against anything conventional in a way that’s sort of self-defeating because it doesn’t let you fit into anything, and I don’t think they were worried simply because I was going on demonstrations, and to be honest, I mean when I started – I mean we’re up to road protesting I think – when I started, there were quite a few people, some of whom you may have spoken to, prominent activists, who one way or another, some of them because they got involved in it because…there were quite a few people that dropped out of their studies, university courses, and some of those people kind of got involved in it because they were in houses that were condemned for one or another road scheme, not just the M11, and then they’d become deeply involved in it, and other people just kind of got involved in the counter culture and found the protests, but either way, there was a fair handful of people I came across who dropped out of university courses, and at that point I was slightly younger than them because I was really doing A Levels, first road protest I went on was the summer just before my A Level, and the point I’m making was that I never had any thought of dropping out of formal education, I was totally on that track. However, afterwards, at the end of university, is another matter. I never had any sort of a plan for what I was going to do after, er which is probably a failure of sorts, it would have been prescient to you know, but erm, have a sense of a career, but as it was I was doing education because that’s what you do, and you sort of at leave have that under you, but I had no sense of needing to do a better…build up a sense of being able to do a thing in order to get money for it.

Do you think your involvement in the road protest scene contributed to that attitude?

I think it probably went hand in hand with it, it’s probably not the fundamental driver. It’s quite weird, when I look back there’s kind of several things, I mean to be fair, first of all in the political milieu there’s sort of anti-capitalist ideology and when I was in university and we’d come across something like the Industrial Society, Cambridge Industrial Society, which is for people who want to make links early with generally blue chip big businesses, with a view to getting recruited when they graduate. No at the time I’d been very sniffy about that, I’d kind of poo pooed it, whereas now I can kind of see, oh well, I can kind of see why it would have made a certain sense. So I’d have poo pooed it, and yes, that’s certainly given some force by the sniffiness about capitalism in the radical milieu, I think there’s already a… by no means a whole sale anti-capitalism, I’m talking about my family, there’s by no means a whole sale anti-capitalism, although to be fair, I mean what my parents’ views were in the late 60s when they were students, is maybe something else, because then you’ve got maybe a time which is the late 60s, and they were possibly more radical, but my dad’s a liberal really, and I’m only talking about a very informal sort of sense of ethos really, an informal discomfort with capitalism, which at the level of values that certainly exists in my family, as I say, my dad’s side has this Christian moralism, and it’s a socially minded moralism. So, there’s that, but what that means in most cases is that people end up being academics, or going into the arts, or public service professions and so forth, which is what my parents did, and broadly speaking my brothers and sisters have done. I then got involved with people with a much more radical posture and I found that very cool, and I got an enormous amount of meeting from it personally, it does not deliver you to a place where you’re then ready and able to make a living, that’s true. By default, and that’s not something, being young, that I had a great sense of being a problem, or foresight around.

Yes. So let’s go back to your first road protest. [at this point the tape is stopped and the interviewee gets a glass of water. The recording that followed was wiped because the recorder fell over; the section lost was re-recorded at a later date and has been added on to the end of this interview]

…

The bender site…

I can’t locate it.

Claremont Road I think?

No. There could have been benders here and there, but there was something called The Bender Site, and it was basically at least one houses’ back garden, it could have been in Leytonstone, I mean things moved, the work moved down the path of the proposed road which went from Redbridge down Eastern Avenue, Wanstead, Cambridge Park Road, and thence to Leytonstone, and then to Leyton. At some point it hits the Greenman Roundabout, I’ve forgotten where that is.

Its further north I think.

Towards the Epping Forest end, isn’t it? But now I’m pretty much living near all this stuff, and I’ve had cause to, you know, pass by bits of the route, it’s not far from Stratford, so I’ve found myself on bits in Leyton or Leytonstone and there are bits I half remember, but I don’t remember… actually Leyton tube where the street rises up and goes over the railway, that’s a clear memory, but I can’t then remember which ways I walked, I don’t always remember the geography visually as much as I thought I might have done, but some of the road names…Grove Green Road…I remember very well, and then there was a squat on somewhere called…I can’t…it begins with an F…

Fillibrooke Road?

Fillibrook Road! That’s right!

Monstonia?

I wonder if that’s where the bender site was

Well that’s just behind Claremont Road [this is actually incorrect, Fillibrook Road is further north east than Claremont road]

I do remember Fillibrooke Road. And I remember a squat, I wonder if it was just somewhere that happened to be a squat, rather than somewhere that was condemned for the road, it was covered in political graffiti, to which I added an animal liberation graffiti in amongst all the other graffiti, punk graffiti… I remember a guy called Noel, with…big fat dreads, sweet guy, I wonder where he was from. Er… I remember staying in these places.

So this was post Wanstonia?

I guess so, by now we’re probably talking about post Wanstonia, because that happened in like February 16 or something, quite early, so I was going down to the M11 quite regularly by then, but what happened in March was there was something called Operation Roadblock. I remember Roger being involved in that, and organising it, so there was supposed to be a rota to stop work every day, so I must have gone down as often as I went down, I can’t remember, and in those days it was fairly free of repercussions. You could go and jump on a bulldozer, sit on it for a day…that’s where I met Kath from Leeds, I remember talking to her, just sitting on a bulldozer, Kath is involved in Earth First! And not long after that, well same year really, anti-Criminal Justice Bill campaign… I got very involved in that as well. God, it was part of the same period of time, because then I started commuting not only to the M11, but also to Brixton, so I was basically either in North east London at the M11 squats and protests, or a place called Cool Tan Arts which was a big social centre squat in an ex-dole house on Cold Harbour Lane. Now demolished. Erm apparently John Major had signed on there once anyway but it was an amazing sort of counter-cultural sort of fixing point and there were enormous parties there which at that point I just didn’t it didn’t occur to me the dance but that was when I went to university and took drugs and then went on dancing but…

[Laughs]

Before then but by that point I was just politics you know what I mean this kind of morally driven whatever so then but I would go there and I’d stay up all night sticking you know like copying out lists of Charter 88 groups or doing something erm and

[Laughs] at the parties?

Well it was a benefit party I wasn’t at it, I was in the office doing political stuff and then errr…What was I going to say so that was yeah actually it came a bit a bit sort of dual focused must sort of political er horizons in London was in Brixton or the M11 or going between the two so in March there was a Operation Roadblock there was a lot of things, what I really remember and what’s the kind of evocative soundtrack to that period is erm is er The Levellers album what’s it called? The Weapon Called the Word I came across that and I remember first of all it was at a huntsab party so I did go to a party it was in erm the the lovely huntsab called Elspeth her parents lived South Bucks, Kings Langley or somewhere and we ended up we had a party there once and we were crashing out on the floor and it was all just cool and I remember like hitchhiking down from Milton Keynes after it was already dark it was probably winter it was the hunting season and hitching around the M25 which you never do because terrible road for hitching. I managed to get a lift just round a little of the M25 and then up to Kings Langley and then then we just kinda hung out and had a party I didn’t drink then not because I was pro-actively nonconformist because I didn’t see any point in it you know I didn’t have any conformist impulse either I just thought this doesn’t taste nice but it’s why I don’t drink [laughs] another mistake but erm

[Laughs]

[Laughs] and then erm I remember anyway er free associating but basically I remember like one of the sabs putting on the record by the World Freak Show by The Levellers and there was again it’s like the force of a rumour it’s like you kind pay attention to what other people paying attention too and your like ‘wow okay this is the thing, this is the thing you know’ so then and then I probably everything I think I got into in music was written on the on a Milton Keynes library card for them to order to the library then I ‘d go pick it up. So I must of got that er the Weapon Called the Word album which is a very sort of erm well it’s very… quite accomplished music to be honest erm and it’s got you know it’s kind of hugely driven by this kind of mythic vision erm and quite naive in its way but kind of beautiful so if your seventeen sixteen seventeen it’s probably just the ticket and and for going down the M11 and I just remember those kind of tunes very sort of emotional tunes just I mean I could probably play them now it would come rushing back still but erm and that’s what I was kinda playing in in when I was commuting by hitchhiking the M11 I think that’s what was going around my mind, erm yeah…where are we up to? Operation Roadblock to be honest my my my memory of all this I can do a certain amount of chronologising saying this happened then happened then, but mostly nit isn’t chronological mostly its visual images and bit of kind of its images and and bits of emotion here and there

Where you ever did you spend any time on Claremont Rd?

Yeah I did I went there a lot what I missed out on was eviction because of being a lot of false alarms

Hmmm

Crying wolf so at some point I think I’d just got back from somewhere else and then like the umpteenth yet another kind of alarm call came saying ‘it’s going to be eviction tomorrow’ and I just kinda thought ‘blimey I dunno if I can be faffed’ it was also because the assumption was that when they evict they’re going to come early and I thought am I really gonna try and get down there this evening because it would be too late to go in the morning

Hmmm

And so I didn’t go that evening and therefore I thought I am going to go in morning because it would be too late if it happens anyway and actual fact they didn’t move in dead early they didn’t do some kind of dawn manoeuvre I think they came I could of got up early and gone down so anyway then I heard it wasn’t it hadn’t been a false that alarm that time and erm and they’d come later in the day but that was that. So I did go down but it was really just to kind of by that point you’d have to be a bit of a ninja to kind of break through the police find a way through the police lines or probably bailiff lines or maybe police lines I can’t remember, but erm, yeah probably police, so but it would very difficult to get in the eviction if you hadn’t started there

Hmmm

So I just kinda went down to say hello erm yeah

And did you know did you have any involvement with any of the residents around of Claremont Rd or Colville Rd or?

Well I didn’t know before it was squatted

No but after after

…I remember Dolly was oh you mean

Yeah like people

Afterwards

People like Dolly or Richard Leighton or I mean did you know…?

I don’t think so

Did you know Dolly?

I knew to say hello to

Hmmm and Richard Leighton doesn’t ring a bell?

The name definitely rings a bell did he fix bikes, am I getting him confused with old Mick?

Yeah probably getting him confused with old Mick I don’t I don’t know

But to be honest these names it its really clear from the way people have spoken and also from the buzz around the cremation of old Mick

Tell me a bit…

Well I didn’t go to it you see but I was at the…Strawberry Fair on Friday night one year whenever it happened and I and there was

Strawberry Fair in Cambridge

Strawberry Fair in Cambridge yeah erm on Midsummer Common and I’d gone there and I was kind of thing with Strawberry Faire anyways because a lot of kind of er counter-culture type friends went to it but also… this is probably after I’d graduated but I was obviously sort of…

You were at university at in Cambridge?

I was in University of Cambridge yeah which I remember that summer that nineteen ninety four summer ninety four being in the office of the Freedom Network which was the anti-Criminal Justice Bill networking hub based in this cool town art centre in Brixton on Coldharbour Lane and I remember filling in my ACAS and filling in my Cambridge application form I remember doing that. Now I then went to Cambridge in nineteen ninety six and by that point sort of road protesting was still going but it had basically got to point of Newbury just about to move into the direct action phase at Newbury in between you’d had sort of Bath Easton bypass you’d had some other stuff which I was not involved in like in Glasgow there’s a Pollock something or other and the M74 whatever it was there was road trip it was too far I didn’t go to that erm probably some other actions here and there, and I’d first gone to Newbury what it was probably the summer of ninety five it was long before the actions started I just remember it was a sort idyllic place in we went swimming I think in the river so that was Newbury and then and then I went ended up going to Cambridge oh it was late ninety five that’s right, so I went in October ninety five and then January ninety six my second term at Cambridge that was when erm…the work started on the Newbury bypass and therefore direct action phase of the protest began and I was a bit like ‘oh god what am I doing at university I should be protesting’ so I felt a bit like one of those kind of people who dropped out to go protesting not that again it didn’t cross my mind to actually drop out but I was a bit conflicted erm

What were you studying?

Eng…well I went up actually to do Philosophy and then for whimsical reasons I changed to English erm and we did we sort of organised buses like mini buses to go twice a week between Newbury and Cambridge and we set up a camp and tried to keep the camp going just with people from Cambridge and Newbury bypass there was so much such a long about nine miles I think it was so there’s plenty of trees to live and places to squat but it was winter erm and errr… I that actually was I think that work in evictions and the direct action thing was pretty much done busted flush by about Easter so it was fairly sort of intense period of winter turning into spring

Hmmm

And because that was really the culmination of the whole kind of anti-road movement trajectory there wasn’t really anywhere for it to go after that if that would in any sense would maintain a sense of momentum. I remember quite a bit of naval gazing at sort our Earth First! meetings and gatherings about where do we go what we do because you’ve got his thing that kind of really worked and got enormous amount of attention and just people and involvement and commitment and it had been very dynamic and people had been involved at all sorts of levels and you know it hadn’t been orchestrated particularly there was a kind of a road alert office to kind of co-ordinate things a bit but basically it was a kind of self-sustaining movement it was brilliant and it had involved so many people and found such productive focus and then when it kind of came to a natural conclusion at Newbury I mean it must have been around then when the government announced alright we’re going back down on a lot of road schemes so that was sort of victory so then there was a bit like ‘ohhh where do you go?’ and in a way because there had been kind of an Earth First movement or at least some sense of an Earth First movement beforehand and in fact Reclaim The Streets strictly speaking pre-dates the M11 campaign but obviously everything got subsumed by the M11 because it was this kind of enormous focus and urgency and just things you can do it’s like tactics it’s like hunt sabbing, it’s like ‘oh, right this actually works, brilliant’

Hmmm

Erm so after that you’d be like ‘okay what do we do again? What does Earth First so called do?’ and there was naval gazing around that at meetings and in benders and places at gatherings er actually in the London out of the M11 the M11 side of things reclaim the streets was resurrected which was actually did have quite interesting things going on, so that was one of the more productive aftermaths and it was particularly from the M11 er M11 campaign relatively local in terms of where people organising from. erm so yeah because I suppose there was a there was a really kind listen very good erm affinity’s and kind of cliques possibly but you know people had kind of er gelled and knitted together and worked together well from that and so they kind of resurrected Reclaim the Streets and then erm done er which was a sort of Reclaim the Streets was a sort of transport focused campaign to try and it was kind of against car culture so called and ermmm I think basically they hitched a kind of broader anti-systemic anti-capitalist er critique on the back of er complaining about cars [laughs] about too much traffic which was a kind of thing they did and and really the kind of concrete thing they did was erm do sort of erm unannounced street parties trying to take back a road for a little bit like a Temporary Autonomous Zones there called urm taking it back from traffic and er which erm I mean you probably know about this anyway but

Yeah but I know yeah but the tape doesn’t [laughs]

Okay so anyway so this is what came out of in in the way the M11 and erm and so the idea was yeah wouldn’t it be great to have a party and er and take back a road for an afternoon and then we can like a kind of beautiful vision of what the street could be about conviviality and people errm mixing and having traffic free environment rather than people trying to get from A-B and live this sort of instrumentalised existence which then seemed to be an expression of capitalist social relations erm so then, so they did that first in nineteen ninety five you see, the first one of those, and because it sort of, the whole gig was, it’s obviously not un-planned, is was very planned, but it’s secret, and you sort of take back the road. Rather than a demonstration organised by the police which would then have all sorts of restrictions on it, it seemed to be this sort of, taking it back, expression of autonomous um, er, resistance to cars, traffic, capitalism. So therefor, what this in practice means is that you’ve got a secret plan which therefor can’t be communicated outside a small bunch of people, um, and then you’ve got a wider bunch of people who are more or less involved because they support the idea of the plan but they don’t know what it is, and then you’ve got the police who are frustrated and anxious, but probably the police may not have been than anxious the first time because they were taken by surprise. The first one was about May the…15^th or something, middle of May ninety five, it was Camden High Street, and it was great. Some of the secret plans were really cool. They got two beaten up old cars, drove them into each other as if to make a crash, and then got out and started pretending, the two drivers pretending to fight each other, and then they started smashing up the cars, and then I can’t remember, but music and balloons and other things arrived and they had a street party. The second one was what, only a month or two later in Islington High Street, which is Upper Street, actually, and at that point they got a dumper truck of sand to come and dump it on the highway, on the road, to make a sandpit, so it was all very cool, really, and even some of these ideas have been taken up by councils and authorities doing similar things but in an organised, officially prescribed way. And the one after that, this was in nineteen ninety six, and by this time I’m at university…

And you’re still travelling back to London?

What by the time I went to university? Nineteen ninety five was a relatively fallow year for protests, whereas ninety four was incredibly intense, and then I started university…London? Well the M11 Campaign has finished, Cool Tan still existed, the Criminal Justice Bill became the Criminal Justice Act in November 1994, so Cool Tan Arts was still there for a while, I think, I wasn’t going to work in that office, Freedom Network, I'm was still hunt sabbing at least for a bit when I was at university. I remember there was a Cambridge Sab group, we’d go out sometimes and I remember going on one sab in the summer you see, fox hunts were not hunting anyway, but what you did have was mink hunts, and there aren’t that many of those, and there’s one called the Yetney, which is down in Somerset I think, we went on some long journey with the Cambridge hunt sabs to sab the Yetney, and I remember going back to the college bar afterwards and telling people about it. I think my involvement with sabbing must have petered out at some stage. I had about a good 4 years of regular sabbing, 4 seasons. So no, I wasn’t commuting to London. What I do remember about the end of the M11 Campaign was that I was surprised and shocked, after Claremont, because it was like I really didn’t expect it to end. When you’re young you have no sense of the future, but that whole year of 1994 was so intense, and there was so much going on. I didn’t have a sense of it being exceptional, as in, ‘oh this is a busy year’, it was more like, when it came to 95, it was like ‘oh, there’s not much going on.’ But the M11 Link Road, I was so caught up with it and everything that it meant, and I was going down there the whole time and I was meeting people, and it was just an incredibly urgent project, it just sort of represented a lot to me, it was like…it’s difficult to evoke it, but when it came to the end I was basically a bit ‘oh, it’s ended. I didn’t expect it to end’.

Were you surprised that the road was built?

No, I can’t have been surprised that it was built. I can’t imagine anyone was surprised it was built. I just think it’s really my personal sense of time. Yeah, I don’t really have a sense of a horizon, a limit. But I remember the last year or two in secondary school, or the last year, of going to expressive arts lessons, I never really did anything in expressive arts, during the lessons anyway, talk about sabbing, because that was what was urgent to me really, and I think going round to the hunt sab parties and getting wind of things…this is really a statement about adolescence really, more than it is about road protest, but getting wind of things which then you’re kind of like ‘ah! Ah! That’s what’s important’, there was a band called Blaggers ITA, which I don’t think I listened to, but I saw some of the other punk sabs from South Bucks, they were into them, and I was like ‘ah ha, these are what’s important, ok’, and it’s just kind of following those signals, trying to get to the centre of some kind of milieu, some kind of gesture of refusal, some really kind of cogent stance on the world, I think. So it was sort of a moral quest I suppose.

I want to ask a complicated question that I can’t quite get my head round about the kind of…like where that moral quest took you, and your relationship to it now…

Do you mean protesting and what it meant to me and how did it…

I guess I mean it on different levels, I mean it on a tangible…we’ve got 20 minutes before you have to go…

Half an hour actually. I need to go have a wee. You compose your question.

So I guess my question is two-fold, and it’s about where that moral quest has taken you, and where you’re at now, where it took you practically from adolescence into adulthood, and where it took you intellectually, politically, philosophically.

Yeah, I get your question I think, you mean where did all this lead, but you also mean what have I ended up doing, don’t you?

Yeah, I mean what have you ended up doing? I mean what happened in the environmental movement? Where did all this lead personally? Where did all this lead politically? And where did all this lead personally, politically, philosophically?

Well, what happened to me right, I was still very involved…

It’s a complicated question, sorry.

No, it’s alight, it’s just different facets. I understand what you’re getting at, but I was very involved in politics and radical politics, for the rest of the 90s. As I said I’d come from a slightly more single issue type animal rights type thing, um, I mean the M11 and the road protest movement, well, that’s kind of eco-radicalism, potentially single issue in a way, but then kind of a hippydom, slightly anti-modernist ethos, well that’s kind of romantic, and that’s kind of beautiful as well, but um, but then you sort of get politics proper, kind of modernist, political ideas, urm, and where did that catch up with us? I tell you when it was, it was in 1996, why? I remember anarchism started being spoken about explicitly, and I’m talking here about a milieu, not really personally, well personally as well, I mean I went to university and started ordering books from the AK press catalogue, which is a sort of anarchist press catalogue, you know what I mean? You’re just kind of hungry for stuff, it’s like, you know, I suppose rather than picking up hints and rumours of what’s important and urgent, with bands and protests, or another bit of the scene, you kind of go, oh, I’ve got a catalogue here. I was being a bit more pro-active I suppose so then I was kind of consuming radical ideas where I could, and as I say, the broader milieu kind of…once the activists…my friend, who I met at university, but had radical involvements in his background, and then he got really involved in Newbury, he was a graduate student, I mean he kind of sent me this cynical email, years later after he’s moved to Israel, and he was going, ‘well, activist gets involved in tree protest, whatever, activist grows up and finds Marx’, and I think he was sort of at a stage beyond that again and being cynical about that, but basically people kind of got this sort of got this libertarian Marxist idiom of talking about capitalism. And…but really, 96, did that happen in 96? Yeah, probably because it was in the wake of Newbury, but the other thing that kind of followed maybe by co-incidence, but followed not far after that, just in the chronology of how things happened, was the following year, again I was probably going to various protests, this was the period when there were a lot of reclaim the streets street parties, right. It was post road protest really, certainly post M11. Street parties were still a thing, the first couple had been in London, 96 there was a really big one. Before that it had all been a bit innocent, but there was a really big one on the M41 in 1996 and after that, although they were being replicated and done in whatever cities, the police were communicating to each other about this is trouble. Anyway, that was the thing that was going on, all these street parties, these kind of impromptu – not impromptu, but kind of, actual staged protest parties, but at some point I got wind of a thing happening in Spain which was organised by Zapatista solidarity groups and it was a kind of international gathering, and I was like ‘oh, shall I go to it?’ It was all a bit kind of last minute I heard about it, what is it anyway? Shall I go down to see what it is? Well I did go down, and I came back with my eyes as wide as dinner plates. I was amazed. It was a 9 day thing, ‘against neo-liberalism and for humanity’ it was billed, and so sure enough there were about 800 Italians there, people from all over the world, every continent…

What year was this, sorry, did you say?

July going into August, 97.

Ok.

So this was…I tell you what else had happened, is I had been invited, towards the end of my second year in college, when I was studying English, in University, I’d been invited but not forced, to take a year away from my studies, to review my academic motivation, right, this has something to do with politics, but probably also just to do with just being young, and well, I discovered alcohol was nice after all, and drugs and dancing, and basically having fun, so I was busy being adolescent really, fair enough, anyway so I sort of took them up on the offer of taking a year out, that actually became 2 years out for obscure reasons, but anyway, the summer when I’d just sort of left after my second year of university I ended up going to Spain, and that was an amazing experience, and it was just bonkers, because it took place in places all over Spain, it started outside Madrid in a town called Burgos and then different thematic bits of this conference would take place…Andalucía, (XXX@1:27:39), I went to a bit on alternative media in Barcelona, and there were probably fewer than 10 brits there and not all of whom knew each other anyway, but had ended up there but there were a lot of Italians. The Italian radical scene was heavily into Zapatista solidarity so they knew about it, it was part of their head-space, and there were anti-NAFTA North American activists, there were people from Africa – far fewer people from Africa – but there were people from Africa, and I think there were Indian peasant movements, some kind of various…they had some kind of foot in it as well, so there were these networks which just kind of blew our heads off. I mean there were different scenes and realities and different groups. And different experiences like being on this almost 24 hour long train journey ride from Madrid down to Barcelona and journeying through the night, and it’s one of those old fashioned trains with like a corridor and then little bunkers, little cabins, and you’d find a cabin, you’d settle down and relax once you got some private space, and then you’d go and explore, up and down this private train full of, bursting with activists from all over the world, drinking tequila and singing songs and the middle carriage was actually a bar, because it was like a pressure cooker, people drumming and hanging off the ceiling – it was incredible! And another of those train journeys, going all the way down to a squatted farm in Andalucía for the end of it. So that was an incredible experience, absolutely bonkers, so we came back saying ‘oh my god! We were concerned about the Criminal Justice Bill!’ but then it suddenly seemed rather parochial in some ways. The big focus for us in 1994 had been the criminal justice bill and this sort of radical non-Marxist left, right, but in America it had been NAFTA, which had already been much more international, and also about economics, and political economy. So we at that stage, certainly, I mean I think post road protest, there were parts of that milieu that went off into permaculture and other kinds of living in the woods, with a more sort of back to the land kind of ethic, but certainly in the circles I was bound up in, discovered political economy really, and internationalism. We talked about anti-capitalism, and what that led to really was summit hopping and going to Prague and Genoa and causing trouble at those kind of things, which I think was okay, it was a bit like the taste for big, flash point show-down protests, it’s not entirely sustainable, because what do you do? It becomes a bit symbolic. But I went to Genoa and Prague, but before that, actually… the big first summit that was done, I didn’t go to, it was in North America, it was Seattle, but the same year, just before Seattle, and this does follow more directly from re-claim the streets, and therefore the M11, was June 18^th big protest come quasi riot in the city of London, and that was where this new anti-Capitalist kind of thing expressed itself. Broadly it was an evolution of the re-claim the streets party, and the tactics and approach to organising it were there. It was kind of secret plan, small group, core group enacting the plan, and then orchestrating, re-directing…this was the basic framework plan from the street parties, was that you had the group in possession of the secret plan, you then had everyone else who was told to go to a point whence they would be directed by signals – like following pink flags, or whatever it was – and that was what happened. It was in the city of London because symbolically, and maybe for more concrete reasons, it seemed to be this high expression of capitalism and the financial sector, and there ended up being a ruck, or certainly there were windows broken. Relatively harmless, but where it really kicked off a bit, it was inside…what was it called? LIFFE? The Futures Exchange. And so some people got in and went up to the top of the escalators before being blocked by security guards. But generally it was a run around the city. Anyway, so the police seemed to have been caught on the back foot that day…yeah, so that was kind of what came out of it in terms of different focusses, and the evolution of that political focus. For me, now I was very much involved in it, and kept up with it and still had the same uncritical belief, broadly speaking at least up to then.

Sorry, can I just ask a question? I just want to clarify something. You’ve got the tactics, and the practical influence is really clear, but in terms of the theoretical influence, I’m just interested, beyond Marx…was there an awareness of a theoretical influence?

Well the thing is, no. I’ve probably slightly…by citing my friend’s cynical email, he put Marx into it, right, but what he was putting a definition on, probably correctly, was that yes, that was what we were leaning on, that’s what people were… channelling.

Consciously or unconsciously?

Well exactly. People didn’t really talk about Marx. Well, they probably did, but they’d probably have been quite sniffy about him in the milieu that we were in, because it was anarchist. So people were sniffy about the old left, and we thought a lot about ourselves, because we’d had this brilliant road protest movement for a start. And re-claim the streets was pretty cool, and pretty sexy, and then we done the big anti-city protest riot on June 18^th and that had got the attention of a generation of slightly older politicos, that were involved in the 80s in Stop the City, and they thought we were a load of fluffy tree huggers, and then they thought ‘oh, right, they’re actually doing something…’ and I remember some kind of conference in Bradford in…ooh, I can’t remember when, well it must have been after 1999, no maybe it was 98. Maybe it followed on from…what I somehow didn’t mention was that reclaim the streets, although organisationally it came out of east London, out of the M11 protests, but it did things like hooking up with the Liverpool Dockers because you had some kind of leftism, I suppose an orthodox leftism in the background, I’m not sure who, because it never really came out in conversations, but anyway, they were consciously trying to make a link between the hippy counter-culture left, which is basically an iteration of the new left, which kind of happens about twice a generation I think, it re-news itself. So you’ve got that, and that new left is brilliant and dynamic and inventive. It doesn’t have much memory, cos it doesn’t really have the institutional capacity to learn, whereas you’ve got the old, more orthodox left, and that has its limits but one thing you won’t say about it is that it lacks a memory. It’s got a very clear memory of its history and its past defeats and victories. So, anyway, so 1996, to go back, this was post Newbury, and obviously a little way post M11 campaign, and around the country, in broader Earth First circles, that was why said about navel gazing gatherings… ‘where do we go from the road protests? What do we find to do?’… But that particular milieu that came out of the M11 campaign, was finding some quite creative things to do. It did the street parties, but it also hooked up with the Liverpool Dockers who were on strike then, so they were deliberately making a kind of link with this kind of more traditional worker’s struggle, and that was cool, so we went up in, I think it was September 96, and occupied Liverpool Docks and closed it down. And the taste of solidarity is very beautiful, it’s brilliant, because obviously the dockers were enormously gratified that these interesting crew of mixed hippies and activists were just, you know, doing it out of political generosity, I suppose, and then that led to a kind of March for Social Justice in 1997, so it’s already becoming kind of focussed on political economy. 1997, and that march, was I can’t remember when…early summer? Late spring? And that was the same year that I went to the Zapatista Encuentro and we came back like evangelists for the international movement against neo-liberal capitalism, so then there was the June 18^th thing in 1999, and then there was Seattle that was going on in the background, because I didn’t go to it…and what was your question, sorry?

My most recent question was theoretical influences…

Sorry. I digressed a lot. But basically the point is that people talked about Marx generally in a sniffy way. Although there was a thing with the Liverpool Dockers, we generally thought quite a bit of ourselves politically vis-a-vi the Old Left. And the Trots, the Trotskyists, we were sniffy about. So Marx we probably would have talked about in a sniffy way. Having said that, as my friend mentioned in an email, some years later, obviously we were channelling Marx. I mean, you know, because we were talking about capitalism! And class, basically. I think at one Earth First gathering, there were some North American Earth First activists who had come over and said, ‘oh well, you’ve got this really sorted critique of political economy, but when are you going to talk about nature?’ (both laugh) And the wilderness, you know. Because that’s what Earth First came from, a much more, sort of in a sense more innocent, a-political, almost, reverence for Mother Earth. Anyway, so by that time people were certainly against, there’s different circles, and in terms of the road protest movement, that coalesced in places like the M11 campaign, you know there’s always different bits of it, and it went off in different directions, but a large sense of momentum was in a slightly more politicised, political economy focussed and internationally focussed protest movement, and that went into so called anti-globalisation movements, and summits in the year after. Now what happened to me, was that I was still sort of fairly uncritically believing in and involved in all of that up until the end of the 90s. I don’t think… at some point I have the sense that it lost meaning for me. And I think I’ve since thought, ‘oh, no, well it didn’t suddenly lose meaning for me’. What happened was, it coincided with me going back into university, because as you remember, I took what became 2 years out, so I went back to my final year in October 1999, so I’d done that, and in between I’d been based in Brighton and working at Schnews which was a sort of Anarchist – broadly Anarchist – counter-cultural news sheet, which came entirely from that direct action milieu, and so I’d been very involved in it. So then I had some physical distance, going back to Cambridge, place of intellect and learning, and at some point, it didn’t have a sudden loss of meaning, but I had a need to catch up intellectually, because I’d been physically involved in it for all this time, and I wanted to kind of have some perspective on it and I wanted to… the way I saw it was that I wanted to go to the books and get the background, get more secure and more solid on the background as to why I was right. Because I kind of knew this was all right, and I just wanted to read up so I was really secure in it but what that leads to… that’s slightly naïve, because what that leads to, or what it led to was taking a longer and longer series of detours trying to recover the kind of moral clarity I had in the first place, and I never really got there. So I just became more sort of, dialectically detached in a way, so then at some point, maybe it was around 2006, In think I was writing an email to my friend, sort of going ‘ohh, well, I don’t know about this…’ and…where am I now? Aside from going to Prague and Genoa, I wasn’t hugely involved in an awful lot in that first decade of the millennium. I went on the Iraq march, but I wasn’t hugely involved in anti-war activism, so that was kind of that. There was one local campaign in Hackney.

What was that?

That was…you know when Broadway Market was sort of sold off? Er it was, there was imputed corruption, and it was all very dodgy and then the people who were supposed to have first refusal on buying their shops – the right to keep trading, because they were tenants – they got undercut and done out of their livelihoods, and then you got dodgy faceless entities based in a PO Box in the Bahamas which basically bought up half of Hackney for peanuts. Anyway, so that was all, one little local campaign because it was down the road, but basically I wasn’t very heavily involved in politics, so much, I was trying to catch up with it intellectually, I was gathering a lot of books for example, I mean the atmosphere changed. The atmosphere changes when 9/11 happened, and looking back you kind of have that sense of the 90s as being almost this beautifully naïve time after the end of the Cold War when we thought ‘ah ha! We’ve cast of this dead weight of authoritarian Marxism, and now we can actually do something different’… and we can of fight over what comes… it’s almost like a cleaner fight. Rather than being overshadowed by the USSR, we’re sort of free to talk about different utopian stuff I suppose, and…I don’t know. In some ways it was a bit weightless. I mean you didn’t have… once you’ve got the kind of logic of ‘oh shit, we’re going into Iraq’ and then there’s terrorism, and everything’s brought down to this ‘oh fuck’, you know, it’s like er, security becomes very corrosive to ideals, because then you’re like ‘oh’, because you know, people are going to die. I don’t know, this was sort of in the background, because for probably my own reasons I wasn’t heavily involved. But I think the political atmosphere changes when you’re like, ‘oh!’ Rather than… if you’re kind of arguing with the Washington consensus neo-liberal orthodoxy, so to speak, and you’re trying to put some kind of counter-point to that, in whatever kind of possibly coherent or incoherent way, I don’t know, there’s not bodies being shot. It’s slightly different. Anyway. So that was the atmosphere in the 90s, kind of gleefully sniffy about the Trotskyist Left selling their papers and appearing not to have their own sense of direction, and we appeared to have a sense of direction. The atmosphere changed. I was just trying to catch up intellectually with things and at some point obviously I got a very diluted sense of moral impetus. What did happen though is that I ended up – again by coincidence, a fairly whimsical thing – studying economics, after the crash, the financial crash. It was still a coincidence because I went to study journalism, got cold feet, they wouldn’t give the money back, this was at Birkbeck, and they let me re-assign the credit, and I looked around at other courses and went, ‘oh, economics’, because if you’re sort of involved in… if you’re a politico, I think there’s often an impulse to kind of get to grips with economics properly because it’s a bit of an esoteric, difficult discipline, but if you’re given to thinking about political economy, and arguing about it, then obviously you think ‘oh, maybe I should get to grips with it.’ Anyway, I sort of thought I should get to grips with it so I went to study economics, it’s what’s called a certificate of higher education. It’s not a full degree. But I ended up doing the whole certificate and didn’t really feel I’d got to grips with it, so I spent the next 18 months really diligently, almost obsessively going through economics – certainly macroeconomics – textbooks, until it was really intuitive to think about economics in my head, and then Occupy happened, and so then out of a sense of opportunism, I got involved in Occupy, the big protest outside St Pauls, with the tents on the steps of St Pauls. Because I just thought ‘blimey! This is serendipity, in a way’, because you had the Church of England in a really awkward position, which just meant, for better or worse, that there was a lot of attention going on to it. Otherwise they’d have got evicted much quicker because the City of London Corporation would have evicted them, but first of all there was the politics around the church, whose land they were partly on, and second of all then it became clear the City of London Corporation isn’t just a local authority, it’d got a whole background which makes it the focus of perennial criticism, for basically being…well, they’ve got a load of money. They’re a pre-Norman institution with a big wealth legacy, a lot of historic wealth and they use that for lobbying, so the fact that they were trying to evict the protesters, but were in principle kind of in a politically vulnerable position, because you can say ‘well you lot are stinky, aren’t you?’ So I just kind of went down and thought ‘brilliant! Let’s go and make hay while the sun shines’, it was an opportunity to do some legitimacy games, I think I’d call them. So I went down and got involved in that, and then I started phoning round academics and people that knew about things, because I thought let’s try and use this opportunity to kind of command attention basically, so I did. I got involved in, I suppose, campaigning PR type stuff and got involved in the banking issue, because there was a time when, even though it was post-crash, it was a bit out on a limb to criticise the banks, the idea that there was something fundamentally amiss with banking institutions was still really a marginal idea. It’s difficult to get people in the mainstream interested in it anyway, because it’s boring and technical. I’m talking about the period after the crash but before Libel happened. When Libel happened everyone was like ‘oh god, this really is stinky’, then it became out in the open, on the surface – there was something deeply wrong with the banks, but before that it was like a secret. It was known to a few people who I ended up speaking to in the period of the occupy camp, so I became one of the initiates, initiated to the view that ‘oh god, look how bad the banks are’, it’s to do with moral hazard and complicit subsidy, but a load of other stuff as well, and about you know, I don’t know, I could…. But without going back into it… So I organised an event with one quite esteemed academic, professor of economics at the LSE and a guy from the Manchester Business School who runs CRESC it’s called, which is an ESRC funded research centre and he’s quite political as well, and what happened was that in the wake of Occupy, obviously it died down again, and then Libel happened and one link which had been mooted as something we might do, but had not been made was with a guy called Andy Haldane at the Bank of England who was at that time still the Executive Director of Financial Stability, and is now the Chief Economist. I had had one brief email exchange with him, inviting him to a thing he couldn’t make, but then in the wake of Libel I thought oh, this is an opportunity again! Basically I’ve got a sense of political opportunism, so I’ve thought Libel’s just happened, great, let’s make hay again, so I sent him the email addressed to the Bank of England saying we’ll respond to your availability this time, do you want to come and address an event? So he said yep. And it’s really weird communicating with people at the top of the Bank of England because it’s quite anonymous and truncated emails, and you’re imputing what you think might be going on, probably both ways because we didn’t know each other, but he was obviously up for it, and I was emailing him from bendyrich@... You know, my email address, he didn’t know me from Adam, I could have been swivel eyed, it’s to his credit really that he was up for coming and standing on an Occupy platform and he made some eye-catching remarks. It was cool, because then it got all the press. He said @occupy is right. Not only morally right, but intellectually right’ he said, ‘it’s in the intellectual as well as the moral ground that they’ve taken’, something like that. And then he kind of gave an account of the relationship of economic inequality and instability.

Wow.

So that was cool. I mean the other half of his speech was about the elite project of bank reform and how it was going, and it was a little bit more… it came across as a project of reassurance, which is always going to rub activists up the wrong way anyway, cos they don’t want to be reassured, right, but that was at the Quaker Meeting House, Friend’s Meeting House, and the audience was approximately half activists, maybe, or maybe a third activists, a third Quakers and a third financial sector people, but it was very big. So anyway, I done that, and that was great, other than that I’m a part time teacher, I haven’t really found my (xx – 1.53.43.7).

What do you teach?

I teach, basically I teach poetry at the moment. I’ve been trying to teach metre, because I think that gets under…over-looked at school, because they think it’s too difficult. Maybe it is, but it’s very systematic. I’ve been teaching poetic metre and versification and how to recognise different metres and how stress patterns vary and what that does, so I’m trying to do that with GCSE and below and last year I was teaching A-Levels, but this year I’m not. It’s supplementary teaching, but the last thing I got really into in the wake of that Occupy and post-Occupy political stuff, after the Haldane thing I kept going with the bank reform thing for a little bit, erm, that’s right, we did a demonstration at Canary Warf, End Bank Welfare was the slogan, and then I got the sense that basically, it was a bit of an education, because after learning macro-economics particularly from a textbook, and then I just read loads of Andy Haldane’s speeches and they were pretty good. They’re like mini-monographs; they’re a very good genre of speech and one of the things that made me think – well apart from the fact that one or two of the academic contacts were saying he’s a man to watch, he’s quite cool – but sure enough when you read his speeches they are quite cool, they’ve got a very sort of demotic turn of phrase which uses sort of colourful metaphors which seem obviously to be addressed to an audience beyond the technocratic audience that he’s in principle speaking to, and they’re very readable, but they’re also very educational if you don’t know nothing about finance really, like I didn’t, and all these kind of technical issues become wondrously quite clear. So I just read loads of his speeches and that was my education in finance in a way. And then at some point I thought rather than this slightly ad hoc reading into things that have an immediate link to something else I’m poised to campaign about, I’d actually like to systematically slot in the kind of bases, get oriented in a sense of economics, as in what are the basic variables? So I started going through the National Accounts and making an uber spread sheet and putting in the variables here and the variables there, so that I could have a more solid contextual sense of what was what, so that when I read somebody’s critique about something that was happening and there was variable x and variable y, I’d have a sense of what it related to, I just wanted to get oriented, so I was doing that and then I left off because I moved house, and that’s where I should pick it up again, because right now I’m a bit out of the loop, I’m not in the head space of politics. For one reason or another which you’ll derive from the account I’ve just given you, but I’ve not kept up with environmental, ecological understanding. I mean at some level – look, there’s a dictionary of ecology on my shelf, which probably is testament to a sense of ‘I must get to grips with ecology’, but I haven’t done that. I have got to grips with economics. So basically I haven’t really felt as urgently as no doubt I should have done, about climate change, because I just haven’t kept up with… I mean the difference between me now and me 15 years ago…15…? 20? Is that I took on trust the things that my mates were saying were important and true. Whereas now I’d be like ‘ok…’ I just wouldn’t have any faith if an activist or lefty milieu said something, I’m like ‘ok, it might be nonsense though’. I’d kind of like to believe stuff, but I don’t fundamentally trust someone’s perspective even if I like where they might be coming from. So I’m a bit intellectually cut off. But that’s probably normal. I don’t know.

Is it a good thing?

Pros and cons. I don’t know. Maybe, yeah, as far as you’ve got time to read into something, then it’s actually good to get a slightly better perspective on something.

Given the chance now, would you take the red pill of complexity or would you take the green pill of simplicity and intellectual and moral certainty?

And having a clearer group of friends that you all see eye to eye, clear community…

All of that, encompassed in that question, I’m sure you understand.

Na, I’d probably take the pill that I’ve taken. I don’t read a lot of political ideas. I read economics, well… as I say I haven’t actually done that, but I do mean to go back to that, I’d happily read that. If I was going to read political ideas I’d rather pick up Aristotle or Machiavelli on Livy, you know what I mean? I’d rather read some old stuff. I don’t think ‘oh right we’ve gotta read…’ whoever the latest anarchist thinker is, or ‘I’d better read Marx’, I would like to read bits and bobs of Marx, but you know, but I like old books because they’ve been around, so they’re probably a bit better quality…

Stood the test of time…

Stood the test of time, yeah.

I promised that we’d come back to talking about teaching your daughter old English or whatever it was, and we haven’t done that, but I think maybe that, I mean what you’ve just said encompasses that, intellectually.

Well you probably rightly picked up in me, I think it’s something about kind of post-war humanistic ethos that my parents …certainly my mum, although with my mum I’ve also thought it’s not just a random intellectual disagreement, sort of ideological thing, she’s also probably emotionally reacting to her upbringing, I don’t know, so she’s got this kind of sentimental, very moral identification with the experience of kids actually, babies and so structureless play, you can’t push anything, you can’t kind of push structure on people, so I’m a bit like ‘nah, teach ‘em structure. Yeah’. So it’s probably right that you picked up on it. So I’m teaching Delphi, that’s my 7 year old daughter, I’m teaching her Anglo Saxon. I started off teaching her Latin, cos I was like ‘that’s a dead language, Latin’, cos I just really wanted to teach her a dead language, I thought it was funny, then I thought ‘oh well, we’d better do Greek, because the Greeks were basically much more interesting than the Romans’, and then I thought ‘they’re not very local are they? These are not my people’, so then we went for Anglo Saxon. Anyway, they’ve all got pros and cons, we’ll p’raps do one or two of the other languages in a bit. What else are we doing? We’re doing Kung Fu. I really like the Chinese tradition – a very deep well of classicism which I’m very attracted to. I think that’s very cool. Very old histories, and official court histories. And the Four Great Classical novels, yeah, there’s a lot of cool old stuff. Taoist texts, they’re brilliant, East Asian Buddhism’s pretty cool. Erm… we’ve been watching martial arts films. What else do I do? I do lots of teaching Delphi.

I’m conscious of your time as well… do you have any final words before I shut the thing down?

I need a wee! Um, not really, no. I think we’ve wrapped it.

Thanks! Go and wee.

[At this point the interview ends, what follows is a follow up interview recorded on the 27^th January 2016, to recover the lost portion of this interview]

Now it’s on…

Right, you want me to jump off with this question about the nature of adolescence, which I was thinking about when I was driving along, and you know when you came round last time, and we’re trying to pick up for the lost portion of conversation, and I was saying are you going to bring some prompt material and pictures and words, and you said basically you’d prefer not to do that because it might lead in certain directions, which is fair enough, right and then I thought the real kind of thing that you want isn’t actually pictures…maybe, but it’s not necessarily documents from the time. What it is, it’s the music you know (xxx - .2.02.30) The music that I happened to be listening to, it was when I was 16 which was the period we really got up to, and that’s really where the involvement in music becomes very, very passionate and I was very, very absorbed in what I was doing – the protest scene and different bits of it that I was discovering. So that period was the summer of 93. We’d already discussed how I was at school still in Milton Keynes. I was actually in the summer of 93 (xxx) GCSEs and by that point I’d been hunt sabbing for a few months, so I’ve got involved in fairly locally based, quite cool activity and that was great, I was really into that, it really meant that what was occupying my mind was not the people I knew in school, so if I was talking about my own commitments I would naturally talk about the things I was doing outside of school. I didn’t really hang out with my school friends anymore, unless I was in school. Anyway, but broadly the hunt sabbing thing was a locally based scene even though it took us a little bit further afield, so that was good, right, and then where we got up to, right last time, first time you… sorry, I’m talking in quite an unstructured order, but it all pertains to the same thing, right so we were talking about the first time I went hitch hiking, which as we’ve covered reflects the influence of my uncle who was a long time hitch hiker, right, ok, and noted black sheep of the family, and I did that basically because I think I’d sort of felt the impulse to go beyond sabbing or going to the odd local demo that was organised by people I immediately knew, to go to other demos, and I wanted to kind of go to more things, I found it very urgent to go to more things, different animal rights demos, or whatever was available, really, and this was sort of coming into 1993 when I was 16, in March 93, so I was about 16 and I got wind of an anti-meat march in Manchester, called Meat Free March, and that’s what first made me go hitch hiking. I’ll come back to the music, sorry, I know I’m jumping around a bit. I’d spent the evening before phoning around a lot trying to get a lift from this network of animal rights contacts I had, I’d gone to bed disconsolate because I couldn’t find a lift, got up the next morning and thought ‘fuck it, I’ll just go hitch hike, I’ll give that a go’. I didn’t really know how to do it, I stood on a hard shoulder by the service station, so someone kind of told me ‘you can’t stand there, you’ve got to stand on the slip road’, so I did that and luckily it’s very easy to get lists when you’re 16 and look younger, because you’re young and innocent and youthful, so I got lifts all the way up, and I remember running around Manchester because I didn’t get there for the actual assembly for the march where they met, and it’s already gone, and I remember it had gone maybe up to an hour ago, and as I chased where people had pointed out where it had gone, progressively people were going ‘went that way, 40 minutes ago’, or ‘went that way, 20 minutes ago!’ by the time I got there it was just finishing, I just caught up with it when it was finishing so I had the experience of running around Manchester, that was funny, then I got some people, I got a lift back with some London based activists actually, who said they’d seen me standing on the hard shoulder on the way up and thought blimey, that looks a bit dodgy, but anyway, that was fine, so that was what kind of broke the limits of my home counties world, um, and Milton Keynes, and that was June, that’s interesting, I wonder if I’d done or not done all my GCSEs at that point…but it was some Saturday in early June, but that was that, and then there was that big thing, must have talked about this last time, there was a conference in Brighton which went by the – apparently it was an annual gig, some organisation which went by the acronym FILASA, Federation of European Laboratory Animal Science Associations, so the animal rights groups got wind of this and obviously hated the idea of it and organised a big protest throughout the 4 or 5 day, 4 days I think, it was at the Brighton Conference Centre, and there we were camped on the sea front, shouting abuse at the delegates going in and out. And I went down with a hunt sab mate from Northampton, we were just both up for it and we had like a camper van actually, and it was actually a great few days, it was really fun, and we were staying on the floor of, again, some local activists, it just all comes together very, very, very easily indeed. You barely need to do anything, you assume everyone’s in the same mind, and I must have…I guess I wasn’t doing GCSE’s anymore, and I think the guy I went down with was unemployed, but he was a sound bloke Ian, I remember him, anyway, so we went down and had a fascinating few days, very intense in some ways with various bits of protest. So that was great, that was quite intense, I got a train back with the money my parents had given me for contingencies, but while I was down there – and this is the significant next link in the chain – I picked up a radical green newspaper called Wild, which was I think supposed to be the newspaper of the British Earth First movement, but only one copy was ever produced, and this was the copy, and it had a list of all the – I guess that was before what was called the Earth First Action Update, which was a simpler thing but lasted much longer, and it had all the networks of local groups listed on the back, and it also mentioned Reclaim the Streets –again, this was summer ’93 – in its original incarnation before the M11 Campaign, so I sort of got wind of these things then and basically I think what happened – well I was going to say I ran out of animal rights things to go to, not before I’d gone to a thing in July, there was a thing – I remember everything quite detailed really, and very chronologically placed, because I remember in July there was a live exports protest, because I was so plugged into the network whatever was happening really had my attention, so I went down and camped in a campsite between Dover and Deal, so we’d go to Dover each day and protest the live exports and erm, at that camp site, off the Dover-Deal road, must have been closer to Dover than Deal, a guy who – maybe that was the first time I saw him actually, a guy called Lee, who I subsequently hunt sabbed with, he was from Huntingdon, and he came on with a sign that said Group 4 Securitas, which he was very pleased with because he’s got it from…he said ‘I’ve just come from Twyford Down!’ And Group 4 were sort of infamous for being, well, to many of us, for being the security guards at Twyford Down and that was the first time I remember hearing of Twyford Down, but it was the kind of thing that always pricked up my ears and I was very sensitive to signs and indicators for what was happening and where the most kind of urgent and important things were happening, because whatever was happening in this world of protest which I was still kind of getting to grips with or at least finding more of, just seemed to me the most urgent and important things to do and this is going back to adolescence really, because essentially everything I’m saying here is kind of obvious, it’s as much about being an adolescent as it is about anything that was particularly happening at the time. I don’t know what I can add, almost, but it’s a very strange and wondrous and mysterious thing, trying to think back to how I saw it at the time, and why I had the sense of urgency, and I guess a sense of promise…and potency, and that really became more intense when I got to the M11 Link Road Campaign, and road protesting in general. Because the first protest I went to was not the M11, it was the same summer, just the final day of summer, arguably, the final day of August ’93, as I say I’d run out of animal rights demos to go to after that kind of live exports gig for a few days in July. And I looked about and it may well have been through that Wild newspaper, and the Cradlewell bypass was being built in Newcastle and it was destroying or partially destroying a place called Jesman Dean, which was a green space close to the city centre, and looking back I think it was the first direct action anti-road protest after Twyford Down, I never actually made it to Twyford which I was quite pained about subsequently. All the road protests, and everything I just kind of came across as a potent rumour, just like ‘wow, something’s going on, somethings going on over here, and this is where the energy’s going to be’, and I just went because I wanted to see what was going on, and in those days I must have hitched about 3 times, maybe this was the 3^rd time, anyway, my dad liked me to phone home once I’d got to a place to let him know I’d arrived safely, and I set off, presumably the day before the protest, from Newport Pagnell Service Station, which is the place I always hitched to and from because it’s a couple of miles from where I lived, so anyway, I got there and phoned back and my dad was like ‘I couldn’t have driven it in that time’, because I got there in about 2 and a half hours, really quick, to er Newcastle and then had had a cup of tea in a little caravan and talked to some of the activists. Then the next day, it was a beautiful sunny day and everyone got arrested basically, apart from me, because I’d volunteered for the video camera – people wanted to make a film out of it, and I made a nice little film actually, I remember, I’ve still got it on VHS somewhere, of people invading the road site and locking themselves to things. Everyone got nicked … I think it was the Trade Union Labour Relations Act, this was prior to the Aggravated Trespass being brought in in 1994, and they wanted to throw the book at the activists and say that it was illegal, so they used this thing which was supposed to be used against Trade Unionists, anyway, um, yeah… going and discovering that, I think there’s more of a mythology to buy into with road protesting, which is sort of obvious, the sort of anti-modernist eco-warrior mythos. It’s quite beautiful in a way, for me it was like falling in love. I’ve said this before, but for me it was very much like…I was quite bowled over by how cool it was, and the sense of, I suppose there’s more of an effective gang of people, who are I suppose putting themselves forward as an authentic community, and it’s got that oppositional edge of being against the corruption and lies of the wider world, so I was a push over. I thought ‘this is amazing! It’s beautiful!’ so as I said, I didn’t get arrested, it must have been the night before, or the night after the protest, borrowing someone’s driving licence so I could get into a Back to the Planet gig because I was under 18, and it didn’t seem to be difficult. Like I say, all these things just kind of happened, that’s partly to do with being young actually that kind of camaraderie really is just young people. As well as activists, and shared ideology, so it was very easy to fall in with people. It’s even easier with toddlers, I watch my daughter, you know, young kids, they just play with each other at the drop of a hat, so I suppose it was the same for me as a teenager, but anyway, yeah. That was a very significant new door opened, because then I was like, ‘wow, this is a brilliant thing’, it’s a focus and a sense of values that was not completely identical to the animal rights thing, so there what I did get wind of as the next focus was the M11 Link Road Campaign, which of course was more local to me, being in Milton Keynes. And I think I went back after that one off event in Newcastle. I did go back to Newcastle, it was probably the following year, not for the road protests but because there used to be a thing which I trust no longer goes on, but it was called The Northumberland Beagling Festival, must be illegal now, and that was an annual hare hunting gig, so that got sabbed a lot, there was an away week for sabs to come and sleep on local sabs’ floors for a week, and go out and try and catch these beaglers, anyway, I did that the following year and that was the one time I went back to Newcastle. I think I went to that Cradelway Bypass thing, it was the 31^st August, and I think about 3 or 4 days – maybe 2 days, it was ridiculous, almost immediately I was back and going to a sixth form thing…well anyway, there was a very abrupt change of scene. I think it may have been the day after I got back from Newcastle, hitched back to Milton Keynes and then went to the induction day at sixth form , so then I immediately joined sixth form and was doing my A levels, so that was the summer between my GCSEs and A Levels, all these experience which had a great impact on me.

So you want to move on to the M11?

Well yeah, that’s where it goes, and what I started saying earlier and left off, was about music as being this big prompt to memory, and it seems to absorb so much of the emotion and sensation of being in a time and a place, what I happened to be listening to, certainly the later part of that summer, was certainly The Levellers, which is a sort of folk, punk, pop band, which is an authentic expression of the new age protest sensibility and milieu whence the band emerged and anyway – did I talk about going to my friend Elsbeth’s party in Kings Langley?

Yes, I’m pretty sure that that was on there.

Because that was where someone played a Levellers record. It’s like a game, it’s like the first time that you encounter something, or get wind of something when you’re this young impressionable age, and it just seems like ‘ah ha! That’s the way forward!’

Yeah.

‘This is the real thing’, and it’s so difficult to describe quite what the sense of promise or importance was, apart from saying it just seemed intensely urgent, but I think that I was listening to – The Weapon Called The Word is the album, and it’s very emotionally rich songs, musically I think it’s very good, really, and so that’s what I was listening to, and certainly the songs, pretty much all of them, is travelling from Milton Keynes to Wanstead in East London and going through, it was fairly grey and dull because it was coming on for winter by the time I got there. And so that… yeah. I’d heard about it at Newcastle and I think what happened in between going there and the moment I actually went there, was hearing on the BBC or whatever, Newsroom South East, about the eviction of George Green and the chestnut tree on George Green. Now I wasn’t present for that, but obviously I pricked up my ears and I was like ‘ah ha! This is the M11’ and so probably fairly soon after that I went down, and I think probably just having had a burst of activity the campaign was pretty quiet then, so I had a fairly unsatisfying couple of nights, I think I stayed in a residential squat where 3 or 4 people were living, on Eastern Avenue, which is about the Northern most point of the route, nearest to Redbridge, it’s Cambridge Park Road while it’s still a bit less like a pedestrian road and more like a thoroughfare, anyway it was one of the houses there, but nothing was really going on. I felt like one or two of the people squatting there were not particularly warm either, and they were distracted or whatever, it wasn’t a user friendly hub where people were being drawn in and directed to where they could go. Actually I was directed to one other house and there I came across Potty Phil, who I think’s still in Oxford these days, I came across him a bit later as well and I remember talking to him. He had a funny, slightly claustrophobic sensibility I think. I didn’t immediately, I wasn’t drawn into a lot of conversations about what was going on because there wasn’t much going on. So I do remember pottering into town and queuing to go into the public gallery at Parliament for want of anything better to do. So that wasn’t particularly exciting. And then I went back, and what happened then was – well, at least I must have been linked in, I must have got the contacts and whatever was necessary to be linked to the communication network, and after there was Wanstonia, so that was still on Cambridge Park Road, but it was after George Green, and Wanstonia was…well whatever the numbers of the houses were, a series of, were they semi-detached I can’t remember, and you’re nodding, so yeah.

They were either detached or semi-detached. They were big.

They were either detached or semi-detached. Victorian or Edwardian houses, yeah, they were nice houses. Trees in the garden. Anyway, so the tactic was, or the posture was to make a unilateral declaration of independence. I wasn’t involved in it, but I gather that people were faxing various hostile embassies around the world getting them to recognise Wanstonia in order to make a problem for the government, anyway, that didn’t – but it was quite a fun thing to do. I said I was the Minister for Agriculture, minister for this and that or the other, so that was the thing. And what I do remember quite vividly, was when it came to be evicted, it wasn’t a surprise eviction, people had reasonable wind of it before it happened, I remember staying up and collectively keeping vigil downstairs in the front room, which had a beautiful bay window actually, it must have been quite a nice house, but loads of us. I don’t know if people were drumming, but certainly sitting around chatting, and I bagged an arm chair eventually in my sleeping bag, chatting to people, a girl called Sam Meden, I mentioned her, I was going to try and find her contact, staying up talking to people. That was much more sort of invigorating. There were lots of people I bumped into there, and lots of enthusiastic, committed people and so it becomes a really cool dynamic. It’s brilliant, because once you’ve got a lot of energy and commitment and a lot of irreverence and a sense of fun, and to put in various illicit tactics to get in the way of the authorities, it was brilliant, and to try and obstruct the road, it’s not a purely anti-authority thing, but obviously that is a lot of the moral energy that goes into it. But obviously people believed in stopping the road and saving houses and trees. And then comes the morning. I ended up on the landing of the upper floor and there were others, I think possibly Becca, and I think also, what was her name? Who was actually one of the residents there…Anglo-Indian woman…anyway, there were two people like that, with their hands kind of handcuffed together, or locked together in some way, in the middle of an oil drum that was filled with concrete but had had a tube set into it and they’d locked – they’d sort of done these obstructive tactics, and they’d bricked themselves into an adjacent room off the landing I think, so I wasn’t quite at the centre of the most difficult bit of the resistance effort, or most difficult for the bailiffs to get rid of. But I was much easier to get rid of, actually, they just marched me out, but we spent I guess it must have been the first part of the morning, all squashed in, bodies on the floor of the landing, arms linked together, singing hippy songs…yeah…

Can you remember what?

Yeah, it’s on the other tape, I think it was stuff like [singing] ‘Can’t kill the spirit...’ the trouble with that is I think I’m remembering something we sang with Keith at a midnight feast [both laugh], but it was something like that…

The ever present midnight feasts…

The ever present midnight feasts. Right, so…ah, no. I’ll tell you what it was, [singing in a different tune] ‘You can’t kill the spirit, can’t kill the spirit, you can’t kill the spirit of the dragon’ I think it was that one. It was pretty much like almost chanting round and round. But essentially it just seemed to tap into a sense of values and power that was missing or forgotten or suppressed within modern, adult, rational existence. So it was the discovery of a focus of value which is actually outside of what you know, or has been supressed by the way of living that you’re sort of quite minded to kick against. That’s what’s exciting. And that’s what was pushing me through a lot of this. The thing about the music, I mean I happened to be listening to a lot of that music, but I think that what’s weird about it is that I was just looking for signals, and following it like…I was so wrapped up in it, almost mesmerised by these signals that I’d like… someone played a Levellers record at a party that I’d hitched to, a hunt sab party, but then also, it could have been that same summer, probably was actually, I probably mentioned this already, it’s kind of ridiculous, but someone had a sticker, I’m sure I talked about this last time, a sticker of some kind of hip hop punk rap outfit, I think, or whatever music they were playing, but they were called the Blaggers ITA, ITA notionally standing for In The Area. Now I don’t think I ever even listened to any of their stuff, but I saw the sticker and that was enough, because the sticker had a certain style, a certain aesthetic, and it was off the moment, it was a bit underground and the sense of style that it was presenting was as I say, it was a bit hip hop and a bit this and a bit that, but it was enough for me to know that that was definitely the most compelling version of opposing what you don’t like, in the vaguest terms. It’s kind of like…I just think I was looking for the most compelling way of kicking against the world I didn’t like in the way that has the most integrity, and the most purest sense of values I suppose. I was just looking for values; it was a sensibility I think. All that makes it sound like teenagers following a band, which is exactly what it is, it a sense. In a sense. Instead of road protests, I could have been following bands, that’s absolutely true, that doesn’t mean I didn’t absorb a load of ideas about ecology and politics and that those ideas don’t matter. But in a sense that’s not what I’m amazed by, when I look back on my own experience of it. I mean really I can get quite absorbed, it’s like a vortex of memory, the experience of the excitement of discovery and, yeah. Ho hum. I think what I’m amazed by is the purity of the impulse. I didn’t have…that’s what was beautiful, and when I happened across that scenario in Newcastle, these people actually living in trees, and the little caravan with the hippies with their dreads. They’re quite interesting, cool hippies that are doing something very active and practical and there’s a whole story about why that’s important, which I thought was great. So it’s a very pure impulse, that’s all I can really get to, about it, and I spent that winter following that impulse and commuting from my parents’ home and from my 6^th form in Milton Keynes, commuting probably I don’t know how often to be honest, maybe weekly. And to be honest 6^th form didn’t take the whole week, I may have had 3 days, 2 and a half days, so it left quite a bit of time for going down to London, so I’d go there, and in February, well obviously there was the eviction at Wanstonia – I’m back on the script now, actual events – so that got evicted, and once it got evicted I think I was left to stand on the road and I went and hitched back and still had time to view it on regional news. And then there was something called Operation Road Block, which I believe went on for the month of March, and everyone was supposed to bagsy a day, book a day to go and stop work and the idea was that it would be stopped for more or less the whole month, so I’m sure I went down for a day or 2. It was innocent in more ways than one really. Certainly objectively innocent aspects to that time. It wasn’t just the fact that I was young, it was also the fact that the law was a great deal more lenient than it is now, so you’d go there and it was fairly…with impunity…you’d get off Scott free. Go sit of a bulldozer, stop work, then get kicked out, then that was that, really. Like I say, the police in Newcastle had been a bit more creative in trying to throw the book at protesters, but in London, prior to aggravated trespass, we were fine, and actually when that law did come in – November ’94 – ooh, bit over really, I can’t remember., When was the eviction at Claremont?

December? No…Was it December? Or January…

’95 you mean?

No…’94.

If it was January it would have been ’95.

Yes, if it was January it would have been ’95. But I think it was ’94. So it would have been December. [It was November]

Yeah, anyway, so it nearly coincides with the law coming in, and I’m still hunt sabbing, each Saturday mind you, so what I was probably doing was spending part of the week – at least many if not most weeks – in London, and going back to sab on Saturday, which makes sense because there might not have been work going on over the whole weekend at least. And after…I don’t… most of the period, with the exception of that first visit, and the eviction of Wanstonia, most of the period is kind of like a blur, I remember individual – I can’t date them, must have been sometime over the summer – I remember individual moments of sitting on bulldozers, and I remember meeting a friend Kath who I don’t see very often, but I’m still in touch with her, she’s a good friend, she’s like an activist in Leeds, well, activist…anyway, she’s in Leeds and I remember meeting her on a bulldozer, and I remember meeting Brave Sir Rob, as he’s called, now in Bristol. A bunch of people who I’ve basically stayed in touch with, at least at some remove, because that kind of milieu, the eco-protest scene, has maintained some kind of coherence I suppose, mainly through the force of social relationships, but also through what some people have continued doing together somewhat. I tell you what I was going to say, the other thing that was occupying us a bit, and maybe that was happening after the point where we got to, though, I think it did, we were talking about the ideology and how that morphed from …

Yeah, we talked about that

Was that captured?

I’m pretty sure we’ve got that. I mean maybe it’s worth just saying a sentence in case we haven’t got anything, but I’m pretty sure that happened towards the end of the discussion last time. Do you want to give an executive summary of the transition?

Well, I think to be honest, what that relates to, in terms of time, if the period after Newbury and after Newbury, and then my eyes were opened to more political economy and the international dimension of politics at the same time by going to this event in Spain in 1997, late summer of ’97, organised by Zapatista Solidarity groups at the behest of the Zapatistas apparently, and that was amazing, that was the beginning of the transition away from the beautiful and poetic but in some sense naïve, naïve both in a good and a bad sense, mainly in a good sense, um, appreciation of protest as a response to animal rights, or threatening ecological places, threatening countryside and houses. It was all quite immediate and concrete stuff, which is actually what’s good about it, because you can bring to bear theories upon that and why it’s happening, and what should happen instead, but basically that’s what I mean about the simplicity of it, it’s a very positive thing, and that’s obviously true with hunt sabbing because it takes very little explanation to say what you’re trying to do: You stand there, you do that, you stand between the fox and the hounds, and you try and thwart the hunt, and it’s a bit the same with sitting on a bulldozer isn’t it? You know, the thing you’re doing is immediately clear, and that’s why it’s brilliant, and that’s why it’s compelling. I may well be repeating stuff I said earlier, but there’s a line by the Father of a hunt sab mate who I don’t think I ever knew, who sabbed in another local group which we sometimes were with, anyway, someone I may have sabbed with sometimes, her dad, wrote sometimes for newspapers, and he wrote in the Observer once that the natural idealism of youth has found a channel through which it flows to great effect, which is a very brilliant way of putting it really, because that’s true, so when you sort of – I mean I came back from the Zapatista Encuentro with my eyes as big as dinner plates because that was insane, you know there were people from all over the world, but essentially what it sort of brought up was a move away from immediate issue based, quite idealistic, pro-nature posture, to a sort of anti-systemic, anti-capitalist thing. So then you go on to talk about summits and summit hopping and protests. So that’s all that, But at this stage and right up until Newbury really, it wasn’t endowed with a great sense of history, except in a vague. Mythic sense. Ok, so that’s part of what I’m looking back to with a sense of wonder, is my own kind of… the universe I lived in, which didn’t have a lot of distancing. You know what I mean? It hadn’t looked at history and kind of…I had an ability to embrace something in a way which I couldn’t now because it could mean everything. It wouldn’t be problematized or offset by a sense of ‘well, where does this come from? What’s the underlying cause of this? And where is…’ You know. Now I couldn’t help to contextualise, or try to contextualise everything – more or less adequately in all sorts of ways. It hampers the poetry a bit. There you go. But as for the chronology, it becomes a bit blurry…Because I live here now, or fairly close in Walthamstow to where the M11 stuff happened, and I occasionally go up or down Grove Green Road, and every time I go up or down it I’m well aware that I would have gone up or down it a lot some years ago, but geographically and visually my memory is no longer very particular or every detailed I don’t think. If I wandered round, or if I spent some time wandering round Leyton and Leytonstone, it’s possible that I’d be very likely that I might have a sense of Déjà vu. But aside from the hill, the bridge, where the road rises to go over actually the new A12 and the railway at Leyton Tube, I don’t have many kind of clear visual memories, and when I was at Leyton Tube in the old days I don’t know which way I walked. So I went down there a bit, quite a bit, and I sat of bulldozers quite a bit, and I broke my collarbone at one stage, at a late action, or at a reunion? – but opportunistically I kind of dodged when a security guard’s attention was momentarily distracted I thought that would give me an opportunity – because he was actually keeping us out of the road site, maybe we’d already been kicked out, or more likely we’d arrived at a time when we weren’t early enough to pre-empt their securing the site, so the security guards were blocking out way and we were just outside the gate which was otherwise open, and he looked the other way and I thought I could dodge past him, which I kind of did, but not with enough er… distance between us, so he grabbed me from behind and that had the effect of tripping me over and I flew head first into a slope which was actually quite hard, I think it was maybe clay or something, but it was very hard and then I went and sat in the waiting room at a local GP surgery on something like Cambridge Heath Road, and they called an ambulance but it didn’t come for ages, and I remember slumping there and almost sleeping till eventually the GP woman from the reception knocked off her shift and said ‘this is a bit irregular, but I’ll take you in the car to Whipps Cross’, so she dropped me in the car to the hospital. Then the hospital said – I said ‘what I’ve done is I’ve dislocated my shoulder’, so the doctor that I first saw gave it a feel and said ‘oh yeah, you’ve definitely dislocated your shoulder, sometimes it just pops back into place’, so she started manipulating my arm, and I went ‘argh!’ it really hurt so then she x-rayed it and it was actually a broken collar bone. Is there anything else I can squeeze out of the M11? I don’t think so. Well Claremont you see. Yes, the thing about Claremont Road – this is where it rounds off – because there were a number of false alarms, and after all manner of digger diving and road blocking all over the summer – that I remember that, visually I remember as being sunny because it probably was sunny, it was summer most of the time I was doing that. I remember a dark, dim period of going commuting to these east London streets with that Levellers sound track and I remember that a lot, but actually sitting on bulldozers we probably did much more in summer, so we did spend a lot of the summer doing that. I also remember Fillibrooke Road, there was a squat which was not a condemned house but happened to be squatted, and it was filled with radical graffiti, and I think I added some animal rights malarkey, and a guy called Noel, who had massive dreads – I wonder where he is now – and that was where the question you’d asked at the last section, ‘what about the bender site?’ and I think the squat on Fillibrooke Road if that’s where it was, the squat I’m remembering which was not a condemned house, that would not have been the bender site, the bender site was somewhere else, that was on the path of the road, and I think I stayed there once or twice because that was easy. You could always stay at the bender site, you didn’t have to ask if there was enough room. Anyway, I stayed in someone’s bender and that was just in the garden of a house, I don’t know where it was. So that was what was going off and on during the summer. And then at some point it came like, well, Wanstonia had gone, since February, they must have been progressing through Leytonstone, and Claremont was the focus and as for people like Dolly, I saw her around, I said hello to her, I don’t remember the big wheels or figure heads of the campaign. I probably knew Richard Leyton to say hello to, I can’t remember now. And then there was Old Mick, I think I knew him to say hello to, but I don’t think they were the main people I spent time with. There were such a lot of people coming and going. I remember spending quite a lot of time on Claremont Road. I remember one time actually when they did try and move in with the crane. I think Paul Morotzo went and sat of the elbow of the long arm of a crane. I think we watched from a roof, or maybe we were outside. Anyway, I remember that incident, maybe that was late summer or autumn, I don’t know.

Yeah. I think Roger Geffin was telling me that story as well. Or definitely a story…

I can’t remember my vantage point. I think that we were actually in the houses, it’s possible that we were watching from outside a security cordon, but I think we were inside, anyway, or maybe not, but anyway, what mainly stopped it was Paul sitting on the crane, but by that point it was obvious that the heat was on Claremont, and that was the last place, the last stand and so there was the phone tree, the phone trees and the phone trees, and with all this mounting anticipation, you had to be there, and um, I think there’s been a couple of false alarms already, so it was a bit like crying wolf, maybe they did it deliberately, who knows, but it was probably activists being jumpy, and at some point, I think I’d just come back from somewhere one weekend, and coming back to my parents’ house, maybe with my parents, and getting a call saying ‘the eviction’s due tomorrow’ and I thought ‘hmmm… yeah…’ and it was just a bit late to go down that evening, and I thought ‘yeah, maybe it is, but maybe it isn’t’, so I didn’t go down. As it was, if I had got up early and gone down the next morning, I still would have got in before the security cordon was formed properly, but I wouldn’t have anticipated that either because I was used to the idea that they go in at dawn to try and head off any attempt to swell the ranks of protesters, so basically I missed out so to speak, on being cold for many days.

I think I’ll stop you there because I know we’ve got this, I’m basically 100% sure.

That’s fine.

So are you happy to stop there? Brilliant. Thank you.

Name of interviewee: Richard Matthew Forrester-Paton (born Kenneth, changed to Richard aged 6 or 7)

Project: Voices of Leytonstonia

Date of interview: 18/12/2015

Language: English

Venue: Interviewee’s home

Name of interviewer: Polly Rodgers

Length of interview: 2.53.16

Transcribed by: Polly Rodgers (first half and last quarter) Josh Adams (third quarter)

Archive Ref: 2015_esch_VoLe_13

Archive Ref: 2015_esch_VoLe_17

Archive Ref: 2015_esch_VoLe_17

Interview Details

Name of interviewee:

Project: Voices of Leytonstonia

Date of interview:

Language: English

Venue:

Name of interviewer: Length of interview:

Transcribed by: Polly Rodgers

Archive Ref: 2015_esch_VoLe_017

Can I start by asking your name?

I’m Rachel, Rachel Boyd.

If you don’t mind me asking, what’s your date of birth?

9^th of 9^th 76

How old were you when you first started getting into action?

Er…17…16…17

What made you think about doing that?

Er, cos I had an older brother and he was at university in Guilford, which was just where , just by where the Twyford Down was, which was like one of the first road protests, so he was involved in Twyford Down and then erm..he was involved in an organisation called Earth First and there was a local group in Birmingham so he was talking about it and he took me along to a XXXXX group.

Did any of your friends get XXXXXX?

Errr, not friends from school but I became part of the Birmingham Earth First Group so we would do things together and they would XXXXX.

What was the first thing that you did?

No idea. Er.. first thing we did …first activist thing I did was ..well the first activist thing I was probably going to CND marches with my mum and dad and all the family and other sort of anti-war marches , so partly with the Woodcraft group….erm….but I don’t know what it was with Birmingham at first but early on we were protesting at the M11…so we’d like…hire a mini-bus and all go down together.

Erm how long have you been involved in protests?

Yeah, since I was 17, so that’s 22 years.

[Interruption] Maybe ask her a bit.. to tell you in a bit more detail about what she did when she went down to the M11 in the mini-bus.

Could you tell me in more detail about your XXXXXX

Er…I think, yes so one of the early ones was visiting…erm…..what they’re called… Wanstonia..so there was..er that road of houses that were going to be knocked down and that formed..like sort of autonomous sort of country and you got a passport for going there..er so kind of remember just going and sitting round in squatted buildings and reading flyers and Zines and stuff and being a bit taken back at how weird everybody was..erm and then also there was a ….I don’t know if it was a.. I might have gone… I went down on the train a few times as well and there was one day that was erm..the day that the tree was ..that they were going to cut down the tree on George Green…so they put erm.. they put fences round it ..and er…and the idea was to take down the fences so it was a big action and there were loads of local people involved like the local lollipop lady got in trouble for going on this demo in her like.. full lollipop lady gear.. she was quite told off for that..er yeah so loads of local people kind of surrounded the fence and they were trying to pull the fences down…erm …so that was a …yeah ..the first time I got arrested…erm…and then later on going to Claremont Road..erm…and I stayed there for the eviction so..that ..yeah.. I think I just ..got a train down south for that.. and I met my brother there.

[Interruption]I was going to say you could ask her to tell you more about how ..about getting arrested and what she was arrested for.

[Laughter]

Er …so …yeah , it was like..I was really young and stupid basically, so erm ..the..everyone was trying to get these fences down by jumping on top of them so there were loads of us sitting on top of the fence and kind of using our body weight to sway it one way and the other to bring it down and …er… and it looked like it was coming down so someone shouted, ”Everyone jump!” Erm and because I was stupid and didn’t really think things ahead, I jumped into the compound whilst everyone else obviously very sensibly jumped outside the compound so I was just sitting all by myself [laughs] in this compound and er… and then someone kind of goes to me…”Run!” cos …you know I could have just jumped back over the fence but I was just so meek and er.so bad at kind of ..going against authority..er..even though..yeah..I guess I wasn’t an anarchist back then but…erm..yeah..found it really hard ..just to..just felt really naughty…so I had to wait.. so I waited until the security guard came and ..like did a citizen’s arrest on me…and just sat down with him and he offered me some custard cream biscuits and waited until the police came…I think that.. I think that I was the only person that was arrested that day..I was very embarrassed about it cos also when I was sitting with the security guard people just carried on shouting, “Just run!” and I just like….just didn’t have the courage basically…so yeah then I got arrested I was all by myself..erm and my brother brought me a book..erm which they let me have..and err.. and then later on…somebody said to my brother that that was.. cos the fences didn’t even fall down then… the fences stayed up for like three or four hours later ..erm and then they all came down later… and I was charged with criminal damage to a fence post ..erm ..yeah…and somebody later said that it was the best day of their life, it was just like the feeling of like..cos they got all the fences down and everyone was like dancing round the tree and the tree was saved and.it was just like this massive feeling of euphoria that I completely missed cos I was in a prison cell all by myself…erm and also because I was really stupid…that erm…was it then?..I think it was then that the.. the policemen were chatting to me ..like asking me like..er..so what do you do….what school do you go to..yeah.. I mean like…after I had legal training a bit later on as an activist I knew that you just don’t talk to the police …you just don’t say anything..but I was all chatty..so I ended up telling them what school I went to …and then….yeah then I was just really stressed that they were going to tell my headmistress on me basically…and then I felt like that I had to tell my headmistress before they did…very awkward.

So did you tell your headmistress?

I did and then…so I think that that was the George, the George Green action and then…a bit later when…like all that had been cleared and the protest had all moved to Leytonstone and it was like from Wanstead to Leytonstone… and then…the…then there was Claremont Road…the Claremont Road eviction, there was somebody who was like you know before it was happening people were going Are you coming down? Like everyone was trying to get as many people as possible to be in these houses for the Claremont Road eviction, erm…so this guy Paul..er, he was like …are you going to come down for it and I was like…no I’ve got to go to school…cos the George green one I think it was at the weekend..or in a holiday…and he was.like ”You don’t need to go to school, you should come, you should definitely come”. And he gave me like all this pressure that I should bunk off school and I wasn’t the kind of kid to bunk off school at all, er..certainly not without my mum and dad’s permission, so I was just kind of like put the pressure on my mum and dad until they um….like they didn’t mind…but they’re ..they are Quakers…so they had to like worry about …how they were going to write a note excusing me from school without actually lying…but they agreed to do that..and that was all fine…I can’t remember if I got arrested for that….but I’m sure… yeah the story with that was that erm…the headmistress… I think maybe I did explain it to the headmistress…maybe that was when I got arrested… God it’s so long ago I can’t remember anything….erm but I do remember that I have a claim to fame now that erm…the headmistress was actually quite impressed that I’d done that…that I’d bunked off school to go for a demo…like you know .. doing something that I believe in…so she mentioned the story to the..like the school must have had a vicar, I guess…they do that don’t they , schools…..some sort of vicar that was connected to the school ..or she mentioned it to him…and then later on became Dean of Bristol Cathedral and apparently this was mentioned in sermon at Bristol Cathedral that was like.. that was an example of school children doing what they believe in, bunking off school to go to demos..so that’s my claim to fame XXX sermon.

[Long pause with people moving around]

Erm…OK…Do you have any like more stories….about you know…XXX going there…during whilst you were still at school.. before we get on to like what you are doing nowadays?

Erm so I was also…yes just to say about like.. how weird I found everyone…like the con sort of like…that’s my world like…those people are all still my friends..like the views that those people have are kind of my views now…but at the time it was just such a contrast from like seventeen years as a little girl in Birmingham …erm I just remember really well reading this pamphlet and it..it having this thing put…so.. so it was like a little article that was ten reasons not to wear deodorant ..I remember just thinking “These people are all weird.” What is that about? and er…yeah like five years later I stopped wearing deodorant…it just like to me….to me wearing deodorant now is a really weird thing to do like why would you do tha tbut at the time I just thought that was the weirdest thing ever… erm…what else? I spent some time up a tree, got a little bit attached to a particular tree ….er there was this little site called the Bender site where everyone was …er.yeah lived in benders which are like sort of tents made out of wood and tarpaulin…erm and er..it was just a really nice place to be with everyone living with nature even though it was in London and there was a woman …er lived up a yew tree.. erm …it was yeah ..like amazing, amazing tree houses that I just kind of adopted, this tiny little tree and I could make it myself so .. if I was going to get a bit XXX I would come and sit up this tree …

OK erm so what kind of XXX activity are you involved in nowadays?

Errrrr nowadays….so since then I went to Palestine a couple of times…erm so…I mean a lot of my activities now are more through work …so I work for an organisation called Zay2 which imports things from Pal…like oil and olive oil and dates and things, from Palestine to support the economy so I was working there until recently …erm and now I’m also working at er..a little social enterprise that ..erm…it’s to… it’s about sustainable agriculture and making it more …erm…sort of …economically possible for people to live on the land and grow vegetables and live sustainably on the land ..er.. so the idea is that it buys up land and puts in like infra-structure like solar electricity, wind electricity, waste water stuff …and then sells off little plots that people can live in communally and that’s actually with two people that I knew from the M11..that’s that job…yeah…so a lot of it’s still connected to those days .

Do you still.. so.. maybe go on demonstrations and XXXXX?

I really hate demonstrations … I mean I kind of liked them when I was younger but dancing.. like the whole ending in Trafalgar Square….and getting into the fountain and dance and drums and that ..but er..I just..I don’t know why I hate them so much but I just hate them now .. though I like.. I feel guilty very often for not going to demonstrations ..I do go to some like particularly around erm …stuff around..migration.. like stuff around …yeah little ones like don’t all go to Yarlswood which is a detention centre for women so ..erm…that sort of thing and …I was in Lesbos recently on holiday and I did a little bit of erm supporting people that were arriving on the beaches ….[clapping] …and I’m going to go back to [clapping] Demos to do some more of that and that’s quite a common thing like people that have been….there’s a lot of people that have been involved in pro-Palestinian activism erm doing stuff….[noise –incomprehensible]…..

[Long pause with noise]

[Some background noise prompt give to interviewer- not clear ]

What was it .. got you into sort of like that Palestine support XXX?

So yes I guess that did come through environmentalism ….yeah so when I was involved in Earth First ..erm there were people nationally that were doing activism around timber ..around hardwood that was coming from the rainforest, particularly, I think Malaysia …like…sort of east Asia …erm so rainforests were getting logged for valuable hard wood that was then getting sold in the UK so one action we did was XXXX the world first was this thing that this group in Norwich was really trying to get everybody to do nationally where you’d go into like a sort of B &Q shop and you’d take out the timber and you’d just walk out.. walk out the store with it and you’d say that you’re.and you go to a police station with it and then you say “I’m reporting this timber as stolen from the indigenous people of XXXX whatever it was …erm ..so yeah I thought that was a really good in action and really great organisation and a woman that was really, really involved in that I got to know later and she went from that sort of activism …she went to Palestine and …like maybe 98 or 99 …er no 2000…and then she wrote a long article about it that I read and that inspired me to go, so it was about knowing people I guess that then talked about their experiences

Are you clear on what Earth First is?

Er…what’s Earth First?

So Earth First was an environmental movement that started in America and again.. again it’s kind of quite focussed on logging at the start, so ..er…particularly ancient woodlands or redland… redwood forests … erm people would start doing direct action so it was about …er direct action to protect the earth basically so ..people would ….kind of protect the trees with their bodies basically and that started in America and it was a particular sort of ethos that then was important to Britain so people… yeah just thought that the environment was something that was so worth protecting …[noise]

[17.59]

Archive Reference 2015_esch_VoLe_15

Archive Reference 2015_esch_VoLe_15

Ok, so its recording, so first of all can I just ask you to tell me your full name and spell it for me please.

OK, Full names, including the middle bit is Roger Neil Geffen, R-O-G-E-R, N-E-I-L and then Geffen, G-E-F-F-E-N.

Fantastic, thank you. And if you are happy to can you tell me the date of your birth.

Ah yes, 22^nd of January 1966 as I say, 50^th this Friday.

And um, can you tell me where you were born?

Ah, West London.

West London. And today’s date is the…

19^th of January

19^th of January 2016 and we’re in Roger’s flat on Southwark Bridge Road.

Yep.

So to start with can I get you to tell me a little bit about your grandparents, whatever you know about your grandparents.

Ok, so my, I’m a kind of part English, part Eastern European mongrel. On my Father’s side my family is part mix of Polish and Lithuanian Jew, Jewish ancestry. We can trace our way back via the family tree which has been compiled by a classic American Jewish mumma who is related somewhere along the family tree and she has compiled a family tree with thousands of people on it that all go back to about the 16^th century somewhere in Poland. And um, I have er, great great grandparents, various great, great grandparents who came over from Lithuania and Poland in the 1890s Jewish Pogroms, met in East London and um, my family, myfathers family is sort of the result of that. My Mother’s family by contrast is probably East Anglian. My mothers parents, Grandfather, was from Norfolk, Grandmother was from Suffolk and their ancestry is probably East Anglia back to, I don’t know, before the Northen conquest? I don’t know. Not sure but probably. They’d been there for a very long time.

And do you know how your parents met?

They met playing tennis. They both joined the Rothampton (?) tennis club, which is near where they were both living at the time. Yep, met playing tennis. My father had probably seen my mother before that cos he would go to ballet perfromances at Convent Garden and my Mother danced with the Convent Garden ballet but he cant quite claim to have said, yeah, that one! (Laughs) But yeah, they met on the tennis court.

Fantastic. And did your mother continue to dance after they were married?

No. She had by that stage given up dancing. She loved being a dancer when she was going through ballet school but when she joined um, when she started doing it professionally and then discovered that professional ballet dancers bitched like hell at one another she decided she didn’t really want to do that so she dropped out of doing that and went and had a second career for a little while as a Cordon Bleu cook. I’ve always said that her second career was much more, much more useful from my point of view. I got, I was not very appreciative probably of the sheer quality of the food but I wanted quantity!

Fair enough!

And I wanted it now. Always! (Laughs).

And you got it presumably!

No – I had to wait! Which I groused about endlessly!

(Laughs) And how about your father, what did he do?

He trained a s a doctor and then decided that he didn’t actually want to deal with the practicalities of patients so he went into doing medical policy work, he worked as a civil servant in the department of health for most of his career, um, doing sort of administration of hospitals and err, communicable diseases. He was involved in the World Health Organisation team to confirm that Smallpox had been eradicated worldwide, and that yes, he basically did health policy stuff.

Excellent. And er, you were born in West London.

Uh huh.

And did you live there… how long were you in West London?

Uh, well. My mum is still there in the house in where I grew up. So er, they put down their roots. So before where… they moved in to where my mum’s still living 6 months before I was born and they have stayed there ever since.

Wow. And where, where exactly was that?

East Sheen (?) near Richmond Park in South West London.

Ok. And what are your early memories of growing up there?

Early memories … er, well I s’pose one that’s still relevant is that er, cycling round, it was a cul-de-sac, and I would cycle round in a kind of little U shaped thing from one side of the cul-de-sac to the other side of the cul-de-sac, then my territory… I was allowed into the slightly busier main road that the cul-de-sac came off when I got a little bit older and then there was one of the grumpy old men in one of the houses who came out one day and decided I was obviously disturbing him because he took the bell off my little bike, or trike, I can’t remember if I was on my trike or on my first bike with stabilizer, and he just took my bell off me! Waaaaaa! (Laughs)

That’s horrible!

Quite! So yeah, that’s one little early memory!

And when you say it’s still relevant, what do you mean?

Well, it’s still relevant because now I work for CTC, which is the UK national cycling charity so the fact that cycling is an early memory has kind of come back… it’s become kind of an important part of my life in a roundabout way.

Mmhmm. Excellent. And so did you continue cycling throughout your childhood and youth? Were you always a keen cyclist?

Well yeah, yes. Yeah… I mean it’s kind of … it’s a strand that was always there. I went off to a boarding school at 15 and my first year, I was ..the first year boardhouse I was in was about a mile from the main school building. So um, each morning we got on our bikes and rode into the main school, so I was regularly using the bike as a way of getting in to school. Um, then at university it was my standard way of getting around ‘cos that’s what students do, and um, I’d also been for a bike trip when I was in my mid –late- teens, probably about 17 I went for a bike trip with a couple of school mates and went right from London over to the Forest of Dean and discovered that you could cover quite a lot fo ground on a bicycle, far further than I had realised. We weren’t exactly going fast on our crummy schoolboy bikes, but yeah discovered that you could cover a lot of ground so after leaving university going forward a bit, I decided lets try cycling to work. I was still living with my parents after uni, um, had my first job in central London ummm, and decided to cycle. Partly to save money, partly that the sheer activity of it appealed to me, and I rapidly discovered that I wasn’t doing something crazy but that the people going somewhere in all the little metal boxes were doing something far crazier than I was. Then I came across something called the London Cycling Campaign and I was in London, I was cycling, I could kind of see why you needed to campaign for it, so I joined it, a year later I got active in it and it was really through the London Cycling Campaign that I came across Road Protests, so that’s relevant and links in to probably where we want to go next!

…Where we do probably want to go next! Well yes, we do want to go there, almost next!

Alright!

But I would like to hear a little bit more about your boarding school days and maybe a little bit about your university first.

Ok.

Can we just do that very briefly?

Sure.

Where, where were you at school? Where did you go to school?

I was at a school called Bryanson (?) in Dorset, which is a quite progressive public school. Um, it was one of the first schools to go co-ed. At the time it was still at a 4 boy to 1 girl ratio but now its fully co-ed. Pretty much all schools are now. Um but the fact that it had started to go co-ed at that stage was quite progressive by public school standards at that time. I think we got a very good, liberal arts education. I went there first and foremost because the thing I thought I was going to do with my life at that time was something in as a classical musician. I used to play piano, I was playing all sorts of instruments, I was conducting a bit, composing a bit and doing that side… my degree was a music degree too and Bryonson had a very good music department so that was my reason for being there as I say but I got a good liberal arts education from it too.

And did you grow up in a fairly liberal, progressive household as well? Is that your experience…?

Yeah…Liberal rather than radical. My father and his older brother, so my uncle, had been hardcore lefties in their youth and my uncle stayed a hardcore lefty. He worked a lawyer for the National Union of Miners and he’d done all sorts of bits and bobs voluntary stuff for the national council of civil liberties, which is now Liberty today, which was more of a progressive organisation then than it is now. Um, so yeah, he was …but my father had a more kind of middle-of-the-road Liberal view but uh, yes, I guess some of that rubbed off on me but I think I probably got more of my progressive political thinking from school friends. But um, yeah, it was echoed by my father but he never really … we didn’t really do a lot of political chat, but he was left of centre leaning.

But you discovered politics at school rather than at university?

Yeah, yeah. I decided round about aged 12 that I was, I was a lefty and one of my friends at Bryanstone he was definitely in to being a lefty, and uh, the 2 of us dreamt up an idea to write a musical on the life of Trotsky, we didn’t get very far…

When you were 12?!

Yeah, well we were probably about 15 by that stage and um, we wrote a few numbers for it and yeah, it was just taking a lot longer that either of us had really bargained for, and we’d bitten off a bit more than we could chew, but hey that sort of tells you about what I was thinking about at the time.

Ok, yeah! Do you still have them, the numbers that you wrote at the time?

Um, they’re probably still somewhere yeah! I’m still in touch with the guy that I was working on that with he still round there somewhere…

Maybe that’s something that you could re-take up again at some point?! (Laughs) I’d love to see that!

Oh crimes! Yeah! …

Excellent. And university, where did you go to university?

I was at Oxford. Funnily enough I was at the same college as Phil McLeish (?) but he was there a year, or two years, we’ve never quite worked out how much, what was the age… I think he was two years later. I didn’t know him then, it was pure chance. We’d discovered later that we’d actually been at the same college at the same time but we hadn’t known one another.

Wow. Ha! And um, what college was that? I should know that because I probably…

St. Catherines, Oxford.

Yeah, I think I did know that. And ah, are there any standout memories from Oxford , or relevant memories…? Were you involved in politics at all when you were in Oxford?

Not really. I actually kind of went through kind of a phase of getting a bit disillusioned with my own kind of naïve teenage lefty self. Um, I still remained someone who is kind of anywhere to the left of centre but wasn’t sure quite how far. I think is probably where I was at and um yeah, I was mainly getting involved in music stuff. I had quite a number of friends who were doing political things and I enjoyed political conversations but I wasn’t really quite sure where I stood myself.

And what were you doing musically?

I was… well, I was doing a music degree but the main thing I was doing was conducting … well I set up a college orchestra at St. Catherine’s and then got to conduct one or two university orchestras for a year, so that was the main stuff I was doing and the main thing I learned from that was that, how you, if you want the best musicians to come and play for your orchestra it’s not, it doesn’t really matter if you are the best conductor or musician, it’s actually organising the party after the concert which really matters, so I ran that orchestra on a homebrew kit, which was very good for the orchestra’s budget. That worked well.

Excellent! And so did you learn to brew as well? Were you a brewer? Or did someone else do that?

No I was doing the brewing but just using a bog-standard home-brewing kits from Boots or wherever.

So is it fairly easy to do?

Oh yeah, I wasn’t ..you can be very sophisticated about home brewing, I wasn’t. I was just bog-standard kits and add water, and add water, sugar and yeast, let it brew and then let it brew for a bit longer, then drink it!

It’s obviously, a completely different end of the musical spectrum but part of the focus of this project … the young people I’ve been working with are interested in the protest music…

Oh yeah!

So, if throughout the interview you have any particular memories from a musical angle, that would be great.

I think you’ve probably heard other people say The Prodigy when we were on the street at the start of the climate thing, yes! No, I don’t particularly… that whole kind of, the musical culture, as a die-hard classical bod… I wasn’t taking much interest. So I just sort of let it go on around me – its fine! Whatever! You only have to look at the CD collection behind me to see where my musical tastes lie! Pure classical! Out and out. There’s a few jazz thing dotted around in there but basically it’s classical.

And are you still… are you still involved very heavily in music?

Um, I still get to a lot of concerts but its no longer part of my working life or anything like that.

But you still play?

No, no. No… I kind of… what happened was, I worked for a while as a classical record producer, where my job was telling other classical musicians who could play much better than I could, when they’d got it wrong and when they needed to do better and um… making them do things again and so my work was basically my critical fangs and they got far too sharp for my own playing, so uh, practicing just got, piano practice just got really frustrating because I couldn’t measure up to what my critical fangs were demanding of other people I couldn’t deliver it myself so I just thought I’d rather be listening to other people who can play better. So I stopped.

That must be a hazard of critics in general.

Hmm yeah! Ah yes. Yeah.

Ok. So shall we move on to road protests?

Yeah, sure.

Was the M11 your first encounter with road protest or was there something else first?

No I had been doing other bits and pieces before that.

Ok, so take me back to the beginning.

Um, so there are two strands to it, that ran in parallel but were actually completely interwoven. Um, Reclaim The Streets had two incarnations. Not a lot of people remember the first incarnation. Um, Reclaim The Streets was a little group that was set up by people who had also been involved in setting up the Earth First thing in the UK. The Earth First direct action movement had been doing stuff in The States, defending forests, and a couple of guys, one of whom is still a professional colleague and a very good friend, Jason Torrents (?) and one of his mates from college, Jake Burbridge (?) both grew up in Hastings and they sort of went through local Greenpeace and Friends Of The Earth groups and wanted something a bit more radical and then he heard about all this Earth First from the United States and they thought lets have the Earth First in Britain and um, as a spin off from that they then… well, Jason and another his mates, a guy called Shane Collins (?) set up a group called Reclaim The Streets. They decided to have a first action, to sit down on Waterloo Bridge. As I said, at this stage I was involved in the London Cycling Campaign and one o fteh things I was doing was arguing for decent cycle lanes on Waterloo Bridge. Now I just happened, although I was a volunteer and I wasn’t usually in the London Cycle Campaigns main office on weekdays, I was popping in there for volunteers meetings in the evenings. I just happened to be in there on a weekday when a phone call came in from Shane to say, we are a newly formed group, we want to do a sit-down on Waterloo Bridge and the staff member who took the call sport of said, well, the guy who is campaigning on Waterloo Bridge just happens to be here right now, do you want to take the call. So I went off and sort of went and met Shane and Jason um and um, so that sport of got me involved in Reclaim The Streets right from its … right from the outset. And, what then started to happen is that Jason in particular had already been involved in some of the early skirmishes at Twyford Down, which was the first big road protest in Britain and had already started up by this stage. And um, so Reclaim The Streets, having gotten going, we were doing, we were doing a variety of things. Apart from sitting down on Waterloo Bridge we were editing car posters, we were painting in bike lanes and we were effectively acting as a London support base for the Twyford Down campaign. So we were regularly organising regular mini-bus trips on Saturdays. Whenever they were calling a day of action at Twyford Down, we were taking people down there. Um, and quite a lot of people like myself who had been in –like myself- who had been involved in London Cycling Campaign, we were getting a bit disillusioned by the London Cycling Campaign at that time – its revived itself a lot in the mean time- but there was a bit of an exodus to do some more exciting things like Reclaim The Streets and the Twyford Down campaign. The couple who I was referring to earlier in this leaflet, who are now…they were both LCC activists who started getting involved in Twyford and then the M11 campaign.

Tell me their names again for the tape?

So that’s Chris Hurdley and Brenda Pesh (?)

Excellent.

And so yeah, among the – there were others who bailed out of LCC and then we started finding other people and started doing, like I say, Twyford Down particularly.

But still under the auspices of Reclaim The Streets?

Yeah. I s’pose, Reclaim The Streets was effectively acting as a London support group for the Twyford Protest.

And so were you just visiting Twyford or …

Yeah.

Or did you ever spend any time ..any sustained time there?

I never spent more than a night or two at a time down there. Mostly going down at weekends. I still, I still had a regular day job at that stage.

And um, when was this?

That was… I first went down there in late 1992. What had happened was that there had been some early skirmishes in the Spring of 1992, which Jason had been involved in but that was before I got stuck in, where they were trying to … what they… The roads required, basically it was gouging out chalk from a chalk hillside near Winchester, taking the chalk and moving it half a mile to the left, to create an embankment across some water meadows. So there was an initial defence of the water meadows of some of the kind of initial sort of land clearance. And then, there was a tribe of new age travellers, a group of new age travellers, who called themselves the Dongus Tribe (?) basically camped on the land, for several months on Twyford Down to defend it. They had nothing physically to defend. All the stuff that we later did at other Road Protests, of either defending houses at the M11 protests or defending trees that we started to do at the M11 but that we did more extensively at Newbury and elsewhere… they just had an open Chalk Downlands so they just waited to be kicked off. And when they did get kicked off, I thought well that’s the end of that. Except that then, some people started saying no, we can go and invade the work sites and jump on the bulldozers. Particularly when they are working on Saturdays. That’s what really kicked the Twyford project off.

Was that really a novel idea at the time?

Yeah. Absolutely. Um, Im trying to think of any protests where people had done that site based direct action. We didn’t know of any antecedents. We knew that the previous direct action movement o anything related to what we had been doing had been Greenham Common. There were a couple of women from Greenham who were sort of involved but not heavily. Um, its not… I think one of things that we felt was that we were having to make it all up. Its not as if we had people from past direct action movement that we could look to for experience and learning. Whereas, if I could jump forward a bit um, from, ah, we did have a really good hand over process from the road protests and Reclaim The Streets movements to the Climate Camp movement through … 6-10 years later. Climate Camp was an excellent 2 generation movement. There were a whole bunch of people of kind of my generation who had had all that experience of Road Protest and there was that next generatiuon who were coming through with fresh ideas and much more kind of… well, so, media savvy, of the early, early social media generation. And there was a fabulous fusion of that kind of new, new communicating plus the sort of experience we’d got of what works, what doesn’t work but a willingness to try things a-fresh. Because, just because it didn’t work before, doesn’t mean that y’know, add some new comms skills, and new ways of doing things, it might work differently this time. So there was a really useful; there was no sense of the youngsters saying, oh you old gits, your time’s moved on, get out the way. Or the older generation saying, oh you young whippersnappers don’t know what you are on about. We just got on, really really well, handing on experience but renewing it. Whereas with road protests we didn’t have that kind of sense of a previous generation to learn from. We really felt we were having to find our way and do new things and do things that hadn’t been done before. I mean actually, they probably had done similar things over in Australia, we just didn’t know much about it.

So were you aware of any mentors or lineage, or … ?

Well the one that I did, that I was aware of, that I tried to bring into the M11 campaign was an Australian campaign to try and stop a dam being built in Tazmania, called the Franklin Dam. And what I was aware of… the reason for that lineage was that, there was a guy who had been involved in that campaign, it was in the early 80s and um, they succeeded. They had… what they had done and we had attempted in a small way to copy in the M11 campaign was not just to have a little bunch of hippies that do all the protest. What they’d done we’d sort of said..they’d said take some time off work. Come and we’ll give you some direct action training and then off you go. You’ll get arrested, you’ll get support but we want a constant stream of new people coming in. and we’ll clog up the system with mass arrests. Because generally, a mass thing, rather than relying on a few hippies to get arrested several times and then get burnt out, it actually meant that they were able to demonstrate sheer diversity, ssheer weight of numbers, clog up the legal system, to the point where they could not dismiss the protesters as just a bunch of mindless trouble makers. They made it an election issue in the national general election in 1982, the then opposition Labour Party in Australia was committed to ending that dam, even though construction had already started. The direct action was, send people out on boats to get in the way of the construction of the dam. There are fabulous photos of people doing this and y’know, of all the training that they gave to people so we sort of copied that on the M11 campaign. We had this idea of a rota and we ran it for a month even though, unlike the Australian campaign where they had prepared for a whole thing and prepared for a year beforehand, we started preparing for this whole rota even in the midst of doing direct action so we weren’t able to give it anything like the preparation but the idea was a really interesting one. At one point we also looked like we might even be about to go back to it during the Climate Camp movement as well, when we thought they were about to build a coal fired powerstation at Kingsnorth, we started making preparations for exactly that kind of campaign but then they dropped it.

They dropped it. And that’s crucial.

They dropped it. That was a coal fired power station, we went and did a protest at Kingsnorth and it created the political momentum for basically Ed Miliband who at that stage had come in as Climate Change Secretary, to say Yeah – coal generators, if you want to build new coal fired power stations and you say you can do carbon capture and storage, you’re going to keep this thing below whatever the limit was, and then you can get permission to build it but it’ll cost you if you don’t. And funnily enough, they didn’t want to build it. So, that basically stopped coal fired power stations.

Wow, so that’s a huge success story.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And the… the campaign that you are talking about on the M11, was that Operation Roadblock?

Yes – exactly! Exactly.The month rota was operation roadblock. That’s the one. And like I say, that really came from me having read this fabulous book about the Franklin Dam campaign, and the reason I knew about the Franklin Dam campaign was because one of the guys who was from the Franklin Dam campaign later came to England and got involved in the London Cycling campaign. He’d left by the time that I got involved in the London cycling campaign but he’d left this whole idea of doing direct action and direct action training workshops. And I went and did one and then went and passed on the idea to new campaigners, including these 2 – including Chris and Brenda- who came on one of the direct action training, the campaign training workshops that I ran that introduced people partly to conventional ways of campaigning for cycling but also to the idea that every so often you want to go out and take to the streets and just be visual, visually disruptive and to get your message across.

So did that tie in to early critical mass days or – what the relationship between?

Well, yeah. It was before critical mass started. Funnily enough, it was actually these two who started critical mass in London.

Oh really?! Aah!

Yep. Absolutely. So that was them um…

Maybe that’s another project!

Yep. Absolutely! Yeah.

Ok, so when did that happen, just out of interest?

Critical mass in London, the first critical mass was 94, so it was once the M11 campaign had started.

Ok, ah. Interesting.Um…And also, Faslane 365, they did something similar didn’t they?

Yeah – yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s right yes. Yes, absolutely. And um, I’ve no idea where they took their idea from but yes, its the same idea.

It’s the same concept isn’t it. And it’s a really good concept.

Absolutely.I long to do it properly one day.(Laughs).Y’know, if we get to know of a permanent Fracking site, or a new open cast coal mine or anything else where we know they are going to be building something on land, then we know that they’re going to be there for some time, it’s the thing that needs doing. It’s basically the tactic. As you say, we’ve done it with Faslane, we did it in a pretty cursory way on the M11 campaign but elsewhere it’s not really happened.

But that was probably the first – as far as you know – that was probably the first time it happened in the UK?

Yeah yeah, and we were only really able to do it in a pretty cursory way.

Well – first, first attempt!

And more to the point, we were creating – we were creating all of the sort of, the plan for it, in amongst – Oh, they’ve done a site invasion over there, come on, mobilise! – Y’know we were constantly being disrupted. It was not as if we were able to have headspace and time to plan, we were already in reactive – we’ve just gotta go out and stop them building this, chopping that tree, knocking that house- we were constantly on reactive mode. So,the idea of being able to plan and then go out and talk to different groups around the country about this idea, y’know, this is what we want to do… The Tazmania campaigners, as I say, they had planned for it a year beforehand. So they were explaining all the campaign, how they were trying to stop this dam through the legal channels but they weren’t expecting it to work. So they were able to say to people, we are expecting to be come and have to use non-violent direct action to resist, please be ready to come when the call goes out, sign up so that we can let you know what needs doing. So they had done all that sort of mobilising and creating networks, for that kind of sustained, constant rota of new people coming in. The networked the idea for a whole year before hand so, before they themselves were immersed in direct action. And, we didn’t have that opportunity.

Sure. And I suppose now there all these technological resources that would make it much more straightforward and streamlined.

Oh absolutely. That’s such an important difference between protest now and protest then. We spent a lot of time filling envelopes! Nobody fills envelopes anymore! (Laughs).

Yeah, absolutely.Absolutely. Ok, so take me back to the beginning. So, has Twyford has come to an end at the point when you become aware of the M11, when that starts to kick off?

Yes, I will just briefly go via Oxley’s wood.

Let’s go via Oxley’s wood.

Because Oxley’s wood was quite important for why I got stuck in, because it was near where I was living at that time. So there were these 3 – these 3 road campaigns, I’m just going to rewind to 1989, which was an important year for all sorts of reasons. It was the year when, on the one hand Maggie – well firstly, it was the year when the Green Party won, got 15% of the vote in a European election. It was also the year when Maggie stood up at the United Nations and said ‘Yes, Climate Change is a serious issue, as a scientist I am convinced about the need to do something about climate change.’ In 1989. And in the same year, her government also launched, what they themselves described as the largest road building project since the Romans. As if Climate Change was irrelevant to building roads! So, it took a little while for the kind of environmental movement in Britain, to kind of react to this large road building programme but these three schemes, Twyford, Oxley and the M11 knd of really stepped into the limelight. And in all 3 cases, the local campaign groups in all 3 cases took complaints to the European Union for breaches of – for alleged breaches of - a new European Directive requiring environmental impact assessments for major infrastructure projects like new roads. Now there was a whole load of legal argument about at what stage did the road have to have – how far through the planning process did the road have to have gone in order to be caught by the requirement to do an impact assessment. The government was saying, we’ve gone so far through the planning process that basically, we’d given permission to the road before the new European Directive came in and there was na argument about, a legal argument about this. It all ended up with the Europeanb Union saying, Nah nahnah we think these local campaign groups have a case to answer, Maggie’s government said piss of EU. Um, they ended up doing a deal – Maggie made some concessions over Mastricht (?) while the EU said, well, we’ll let Twyford go ahead and the then European Environment Commisioner got pushed aside to allow this deal to go through. He came back into the story later because what then happened was that, as I was saying earlier, we had regular protest pretty much most weekends at Twyford and the numbers grew and grew and grew, to the point where the transport secretary took out an injunction to stop, y’know people who had been regular protestors, they’d got video evidence and they’d got private detectives recording all of this, y’know who was coming and going and finding out names and giving people code names where they couldn’t find real names, and giving everyone action file numbers… So, the two days after they got this injunction from the court we’d already planned for another big day of action, so it just became obvious that this day of action would become the blatant breaking of injunction, so people went out with their action file numbers emblazoned on their t-shirts or whatever. Which was basically saying, you’re going to have to imprison me to stop me.So um, 6 people went to Prison. But before they even went to prison, before they even got taken to court, the government made the decision, three days, maybe four days after that, to not build the road at Oxley’s Wood. The one in my own backyard. The one which had been my main reason, why I, as a member of the local cycle campaign group, of the London Cycling campaign in Greenwich, thinking – My goodness, we might need to jump up the trees to defend them, I want to find out about road protest- that’s when I really took an interest in Reclaim The Streets and started acting as their London Support Base. So I got stuck in, my own motivation was, I want to know what to do when, on the expectation at that time that we were going to have to defend Oxley’s Wood, an 8000 year old ancient woodland in South East London, a mile and a half from where I was then living. Um so, just to sort of wrap that little story up, so government drops Oxley’s Wood, people go to prison for having effectively saved it by what they did at Twyford Down, the now sacked European Environment Commissioner comes over for what had been planned as a big mobilisation rally at Oxley’s Wood, but it turned into a victory celebration. While these 6 mates were still in prison, he visited them in prison, Daily Mail goes ballistic – SACKED EX-EUROCRAT GLORIFYING OUR PRISONERS! – y’know, everything wrong in Daily Mail world, but he came and spoke at this Oxley’s Wood victory rally and of course just gave a huge shout out for the people who were in prison who couldn’t be there for the victory rally that they had basically earned. And he just ended up saying for all the Oxley’s Wood had been such an important part of his professional working life, he’d never seen it before! It’s fabulous to see this wonderful place that you have saved by your collective campaigning efforts! to the crowd assembled there, and he ended up saying in his thick Italian accent, Oxley’s Wood will be forever etched on my heart. We all went Ooooh! (Mock Crying).

Anyway, it basically, with the government retreating on Oxleys so whats next? M11 link.

And that must have been a huge boost of morale!

Oh god yeah! They’re retreating! Go chase them! That’s exactly how that felt! That was like, Ok! We’ve won one, keep pushing! Yeah – where can we chase them, now they’re retreating?

And you chased them to the M11.

Exactly, exactly. Up ‘til then, the M11 had been the Cinderella of the 3. So, Twyford Down, area of outstanding natural beauty, two scheduled ancient monuments, two sites of special scientific interest, anything that protected ought to have been saved but it wasn’t sacred. Oxley’s wood, 8000 year old ancient woodland in South East London. M11 Link Road, 350 houses that had basically been condemned from the moment that road was planned back in the 1960s, some of them were squats, others were bought out by the Department of Transport and let out on short term rents, because they expected to build the road in 6 months time. And that 6 months had been going on for 30 years. So basically they had been letting these houses get pretty run down for a good 30 years and you look at it and you think y’know, you might as well knock it down for a road. Except that, us lot thought otherwise. So did the people who were still living in those houses.

And did you expect the M11 to have the momentum that it did have in the end?

No. Absolutely not at all. Um, we really thought we were up against it. For all the sort of new age hippies who’d got excited about defending sacred hillsides at Twyford and trees, 8000 year old ancient woodland at Oxley’s wood, they’re not gonna get excited about houses but they did. And it was mostly because they first got excited about defending a 250 year old sweet chestnut tree! One tree! But we made such a big story about it that it totally moved the environmental direct action movement from being about more conventionally green things, to being about the interaction between green and social politics, which is why the M11 campaign was so important from that respect, for the political development of y’know the development of the Earth First Movement, the environmental direct actions movements political thinking, including my own.

Yeah, so exactly. That’s what I was going to ask next. It’ s really clear from what you are saying that the trajectory that the new age hippies and the Donga tribe and that lot were going on, but can you talk a little bit about the shift in your own political thinking? Yeah, I mean how the M11 contributed to that.

Yeah well, its um…

I mean, you have done already but if you could say a little bit more!

It was a really interesting transition because yes I’d, as I was saying earlier, I’d kinda beena leftie, then I’d kinda got disillusioned then I’d sort of started discovering environmental politics, um and I had a real jolt just from discovering just how serious climate change is as an issue, um I’d already got involved in cycling politics just from my own experience of cycling, and at that time the big issue was air pollution and asthma. Funnily enough asthma has sort of dipped out of media awareness but … and air pollution has been out of political awareness for quite a long time, except that its just come back really within the last 6 months or so, thanks to a brilliant environmental law firm, Client Earth, taking the government to court and winning on air pollution. It was a big issue then, it dropped out, its just come back but I kinda realised climate change is really really important and that gave me renewed motivation and massively increased my motivation to do stuff around roads as well as cycling. And then, as I say, moving on to the M11 campaign where we had to make the case to why houses and communities were important too. Um, and then just discovering, when I got stuck in what that community really was. The sort of people who were there, the people who were in these kind of quite run down kind of houses, because they were socially marginal but actually had this incredible community spirit. And incredible social solidarity networks, that I really didn’t know much about til then. And how important it was to protect and defend that side of things too. And so yeah – I learnt loads of stuff that just added to the environmental politics that I had learnt from getting on a bike and then discovering that I wanted to campaign on cycling and it sort of re-ignited that sort of political awareness that I had had as a teenager but it gave it a much more practical and tangible outlet. So yeah, for me that was very very exciting.

Mmm, absolutely. And so where were you, were you involved in the M11 right from the very –

Oh yeah.

• Beginning?

Yeah yeahyeah. There was myself and a guy called Paul Morozzo who had also got involved in the Twyford Down campaign, absolutely incredible catalyst of um, err of campaigning activity. You – Paul just said to me, after the M11 had gone, sorry after the government had re-treated at Oxley’s wood, um Paul said, shall we go and investigate the M1? And we went up to one of the local campaign groups meetings and quite frankly they were all over the place and we just thought, let’s give it a crack anyway. Um y’know, we really didn’t think that the M11 had much chance of going anywhere, um and one of the things we thought was goingto count against us –we were completely wrong- was that the construction was due to start at the Wansted end, not the Leyton end. We thought that this was going to count against us. That because the construction that had to be done by the Wansted Tube station was technologically the most difficult bit – they had to build a tunnel, they had to take it very close to the tube lines under Wansted – it was exactly because the tube line was only just below the surface, at the point at which they had to start tunnelling from underneath the existing road, take the new tunnel slightly off from being directly below the existing road, so they could actually do some tunnelling but then you had to sit on top of the central line. And that’s exactly why the road – the tunnel – had to be shallow, taking it straight through the tree roots of the 250 year old sweet chestnut tree. Which is why all the residents in Wansted thought that their George Green was going to be protected by a tunnel and no-one had told them that the sweet chestnut tree was going to go. So far from being the leafy, more conservative people who weren’t going to get involved, they got incredibly heavily involved because they felt they had been lied to over their 250 year old sweet chestnut tree. And then, having got involved, they then followed the whole of the M11 campaign on that same political journey. From a sweet chestnut tree, to homes and communities and climate change and everything else that the M11 campaign was saying. It’s fantastic to see how they too went on this political journey that I too was going on.

Wow, that’s a really nice encapsulation. So the point at which you became involved, it was already agreed that the Wanst – that George Green would be tunnelled under?

Oh yeah.

Do you know when that –

The planning for this road had been going on for ages, as I say. There had been arguments about whether it should be tunnelled or there should be a surface road for … had been going on for a good ten years before.

Was there a strong campaign in Wansted to get it –

Mmm, yes there had been. And the local campaigners in Wansted thought that they had won because there local Green would be protected because the road was going to be a tunnel. And that’s why we thought we weren’t going to get local support in Wansted.

So who were the local campaigners that you first came into contact with – do you remember?

Um yes. When I first went up to a meeting, um, I met Henry. The wizard like guy, you have seen in the photo journal. We met a guy called Stuart Barnes who – um- and there was a guy called Colin Becks. And um, Colin Becks was editing a newsletter called Road Breaker. And it was this fantastically full on rant and we thought Wow! There’s some really incredible radicalism going on! But actually, he was a lone voice,it’s not as if people in the actual community were resonating with what Colin was saying. He was on his own little planet. Y’know, in some ways, politically amazing but just not building a network around him at all.Just going off on a soap box.

Oh, I didn’t realise that the Road Breaker had its origins in the local community – in the residents – rather than incoming activists.

No! No no, Road Breaker was being edited by Colin Becks and it was pretty much his own soap box. He was himself a squatter with some really interesting anarcho-syndicalist politics but also some very odd – there were all sorts of very odd things about Colin. Um, I hope – hmmm. But he had, he had in some ways a really interesting political critique but he wasn’t, he wasn’t getting it out into the community. He was just writing this little Road Breaker thing which was his own little soap box. So there’s this little band of old men ranting about how dreadful everything was that the department of transport was doing but really not having the local roots to be able to generate visible support for – well – visible support for the road.

And that was all around Wansted was it?

No, they were at the Leyton and Leytonstone – they were much more at the Leyton and Leytonstone end.

And so, Richard Leyton as well.

Yes, yes, I should have brought him in as well – yes.

I’m just trying to join all my dots.

Yes. He was the most sensible of that group.

Yes, he’s wonderful, Richard.

Yes, absolutely.

And how about John Stewart, can you –

Yes, yes John Stewart is such an important player; he absolutely needs to come in, into the story. John had been a really important catalyst. He’d created a network called Alarm, which originally stood for All London Against Road Menace. Particularly to oppose a revival by the Department of Transport of plans for a whole load of roads in London.Basically they wanted to revive the 60s plans for a motorway box and various ring-way schemes. And they had a go at this in the 1980s after Ken Livingstones Greater London Council had been abolished and John Stewart did what he had done in various guises since. Basicaly created a network of all the groups opposing road schemes against London. And the John Stewart tool kit is don’t plan of the road onto somebody elses backyard, and don’t dismiss the idea of direct action. Don’t make yourselves out to be terribly, terribly, terribly responsible campaigners – actually its quite useful to threaten direct action, and don’t place your faith in the public enquiry. Those are John’s three key messages and he spread them to the London anti-road groups and when he – he and that network defeated the London road schemes in 1990, he started spreading the idea of Alarm to be Alarm UK, which was effectively a contradiction in terms because the L stood for London, Alarm UK became a UK network of people opposing roads and he became this bridge between the direct action movement and all the community groups who were still fighting road schemes through public enquiries. We were saying look – don’t distance yourself from the direct action movement, if middle England had threatened direct action, you’d probably win. So what started to happen was that we got noisy defeats at Wansted and then at the M11 link road, and at Newbury and at M65 in Lancashire and Pollock in Scotland and as I say Newbury was the noisiest but by the time we actually got to Newbury we had killed off the biggest road building project since the Romans. It had started as 23 billion, it had crept up to 24 billion by 1994 when the M11 campaign was underway and by the time we got to 1996 and Newbury, it had already been whittled down to 1.5 billion pounds of road schemes. So that’s 22.5 billion pounds of roads that did not get built at that time. Some of them came back since but even the delay is a saving in CO2 emissions, and many of them never came back. Oxley’s wood never came back. It still gets threatened.

Does it, still?

It’s still be threatened. Not the whole thing but the bridge – that has come back as the Thames gateway bridge. Now they’re calling it the galliants reach bridge way or tunnel, they can’t seem to make up their mind but the GLA is still talking about whether to build a road across the Thames at the location of the original East London river crossing. They’re no longer talking about continuing Southwards from that bridge or tunnel through Oxley’s wood. And at the time the government were saying the scheme would make no sense without going through Oxley’s wood, now it’s perfectly sensible not to go through Oxley’s wood, we just need a bridge over the Thames. They’re still threatening it. But it’s never been built. And there are plenty of road schemes that got defeated at that time. Some of which did get built later, some of which got partly built – Hastings Bypass. They’ve only built half the bypass around Hastings. There was an awful lot of road building that never happened.

So what you, and John Stewart and others did really, was to start to build a network. Is that right?

Absolutely, it was kind of two parallel but inter-related networks. There was Road Alert which was set up by people who had been involved in Twyford to really act as a support network between direct action networks, and Alarm UK, which was a parallel but over-lapping network which was helping all the campaign groups who were still facing the direct action, sorry, the public enquiry, still going through the conventional channels to oppose road schemes, but John was saying, ‘look, these two need to be absolutely mutually supportive’, and that was such a powerful thing to have that diversity of tactics in one movement saying ‘you can move along the spectrum depending on what’s needed for the circumstances’, there are no right tactics and wrong tactics, it’s actually very useful to have a spectrum.

Absolutely. And was there diversity within the different groups, or did it tend to be that the residents were fairly official and the incoming activists were much more radical, or was there more diversity than that?

There was much more diversity that that. The residents, some of them, would be perfectly happy to get involved with sitting on ‘dozers and occupying houses when evictions were happening and all those kind of things, some of them… I think what you realise is that how far people will go is partly around their life circumstances – have they got a job that they can’t afford to lose, and therefore does that constrain them? One of the factors that I think is quite important, one of the things that I think helped the direct action movement in the 90s to grow in the way that it did, was that unemployment was relatively high and compared with today, getting doll was relatively easy. We thought it was really hard at the time, but my god it’s got a lot harder since. So it was possible to be a PANSE [pronounced ‘Pansy’], it’s a wonderful acronym – Political Activist Not Seeking Employment. PANSE

[laughing] That’s the first time I’ve heard that.

It’s a nice one. Sweet. So there were a fair few PANSEs around the direct action movement at the time.

And were you a PANSE?

I became a PANSE about 3 months into the M11 Campaign, I just decided right, I’ve had enough of this little – I was working for a classical music record producer, but for a company that was going nowhere, I was going nowhere with it. I couldn’t get on with the boss, I couldn’t get out to anywhere else in the record industry, I just decided this was more important.

So you were able to dedicate yourself to this full time.

Yeah. Just threw myself into this.

Were you living off site, or did you move.,..?

I was already living here, I’ve been here for all that time, but I was basically, once we got into the phase of the M11 Campaign where we were occupying Claremont Road, so we had a whole row of houses that we needed to defend and we were building up the fortifications, I was spending more time living on Claremont Road and coming back here to get a bath and a change of clothes and whatever from time to time.

So did you have a house on Claremont Road? Were you in one house, or were you just kind of moving around?

Yeah. I was in one of the scruffier squats because I did have somewhere else for my belongings so I didn’t mind being in a fairly scruffy place.

And what number were you?

I was… was I number 15 or number 17? I was next to old Mick. I can’t remember if Mick mas 15 or 17. I was what had been…erm…what’s the red haired guy’s name? Massive hoarder of all sorts of stuff… I lived in his upstairs. I’ve forgotten his name now. Doesn’t matter.

But you were living in a squat, rather than staying with a resident?

Yeah.

And was Mick a resident or a squatter?

He was both. He was a squatter who had lived in that house for a very long time. He had been squatting in I think 17 Claremont Road for a good 10 years before the protest came to his patch, and it was absolutely transformatory for him because as you may or may not have picked up, he’d been an outsider of the system all his life, and he’d done time inside for GBH, he’d got one hell of a criminal history, I don’t know the details of it, but people just knew that he’d got a history of violence. And then he discovered non-violent direct action, and he just became it’s sort of… it’s funny to sort of say High Priest, because actually he was this rough, old east ender, his manner of speech was almost east ender old gangster, but the wisdom he came out with was kind of Buddhist monk. This wonderful mix of wisdom and burley east ender, just made him a kind of guru figure for people, particularly the youngsters. People who had come to Claremont Road as a squatted community to take part in it, and when Claremont went they really had nowhere else to go. I did, but there were people who didn’t. Mick was one of them, and he held that community together and they found other places to be. Some of that community started having kids, and he was just their Grandfather, and he became an absolute talisman. His funeral was an amazing occasion. Has anyone told you about his funeral?

They have. I would love you to tell me about it though.

It was just fabulous. Mick was such an outsider to the system that there was no way he was going to have a conventional funeral. Goodness knows how his body got out of hospital. In fact, probably him being in hospital was the one time he ever did anything inside the system, but his body got out somehow.

You honestly don’t know how?

I do not. I genuinely don’t know how. He’d been involved in another protest came down at LymingeForest in Kent, quite a number of ex-M11 squatters had also been down there with him, so it became obvious that that was where we had to have his funeral, it just became a complete regrouping of the tribes for Mick’s funeral. So we had a rave, an illegal funeral, a trespassory assembly, an aggravated trespass, Mick was probably breaching Michael Howard’s Criminal Justice Act in four different ways in Michael Howard’s constituency, and he was dead. Only Old Mick could do that. So we built this huge funeral pyre and had this wooden coffin, I don’t know who had made it, but it was a DIY coffin, that someone had made, you know, and then someone said something about what an amazing character Mick was, and then one of the kids joined in, one of the little 5 year old kids who’d probably not even been born at the time of the M11 Campaign said something really nice about…[in child’s voice] ‘he was always doing good things for other people’ and we all went arrrr, and then someone else went ‘yeah, and he was a grumpy old git too, especially at the start of the morning’ – which he was – and we just chucked him on the fire. Bloody good party. Absolutely the way to go for Mick, and everybody just remembers it as the best possible send off for an incredible guy.

Fantastic. And there were no recrimination for the –

A couple of police officers showed up, looked around, thought ‘what are we going to do about this?’ They’re not causing any harm, went away again.

But did they know you had a body that you were burning?

I think so. I’m not sure actually. I’m not sure if they worked that bit out. But it was blatantly a trespassing assembly, it was blatantly a rave, it was blatantly not legal. They just thought ‘bunch of people, they’re not disturbing, what are we going to do with it? There’s two of us, there’s several hundred of them…we could call every copper in Kent and probably have to draw on the resources of the Met to brake this lot up, or we could just let them to it, because what’s the point?’

And that’s what they did. Very wise.

Absolutely. I’m just going to have to stop and take a leek for a moment.

[Tape pauses]

Ok, where had we got to? We’d just finished with Old Mick’s funeral, hadn’t we?

Yes, indeed, and that came out of talking about squatters and Claremont Road.

Ok. Erm, what do you think is the best line of enquiry from here? Is it best to…shall we stay on Claremont Road, should we… were you on Claremont Road from the beginning, while work was happening…

Not really. Yeah, if we want to do… I mean there was basically 3 or arguably a forth post-loot phases, but 3 main phases to the campaign, yeah. Well, quick potted history: First phase was Wanstead defending the 250 year old Sweet Chestnut tree. I guess other people have told you the story about the crazy lawyer who came up with the idea of declaring the tree a dwelling and how it actually worked. What was his name?

Did you know him?

The lawyer? Yeah. Oh god. What. Was. His. Name? Crazy guy. He just came off with this one moment of genius. He brash massively… quite posh guy, larger than life character, but actually a bit of a drunk and very, very unreliable as ait later turned out, but he had this moment of genius where he said ‘well if um…’ what happened was someone wrote a letter to the… I’m going to re-wind a bit. When it first became clear that the construction company were putting up fences around the tree, Jean the Lollipop lady started telling the teenage kids ‘they’re going to cut the tree down, go and join the protesters and get in the way’. It took then 4 days to put a fence up around a tree, just because everyone gave them such a hard time. On the Saturday they, we planned a tree-dressing, a very family friendly thing, and the construction company at first said ‘yeah, ok, we’ll let you through the fencing to do your little tree dressing’, and then they changed their mind, so people got really angry and those fences came down mysteriously…it must have been windy up on George Green that day or something like that. Actually I’ll just do a little story about…. Where’s that photo with Jean and Ron… there’s a woman in the background…if you haven’t seen her interview, there’s a fabulous interview…have I missed it? Oh no, there it is. [interviewer and interviewee are leafing through the one off newspaper publication ‘Claremont Road E11 A Festival of Resistance’]There’s some fabulous footage on one of the films of her talking about how she’d been down to the green that day with her son, who was then…a teen… you’ve heard this.

I have, but say it again.

She’d taken her son down for the tree dressing, and then when the fences started coming down she thought, ‘oh, this is getting a bit trouble, I think I’d better take my son home before it gets too troublesome’, and half an hour later she realised her son wasn’t there, and she thought ‘I bet he’s gone down to the green’, so she went down and there was her son getting involved in pushing the fences over, and she thought to herself – and she describes this on camera, beautifully – she says she thought to herself ‘I can either take him home and tell him he’s been a very naughty boy, or I could follow what my heart was telling me to do and join in, and I just joined in’. It’s just like Woah! Someone absolutely capturing that moment when life changed and her perception of the world changed.

Really? Was it a real turning moment for her?

It comes over so clearly in the way she herself describes it as an absolute lightbulb moment. It’s a fabulous bit of footage. So that’s the first phase of the campaign, anyway, so John Vigal the then environment correspondent at the Guardian tells about how… OK, so after that, tree house gets put up in the tree. John Vigal talks about the tree house, one of his readers writes a letter to the tree house. Angus! That was the lawyer, Angus latches onto the letter, takes it to court, and argues successfully that this tree is a dwelling and therefor the Department of Transport has got to go through a full blown eviction process to get the tree dwellers out. This buys us time, and of course it gives John Vigal another story to run in his column about how one of his readers has managed to make legal history by writing to the tree dwellers. Of course this produces a deluge of letters to the trees and we produce a book of all these fabulous letters that got written to Dear Tree, it also meant that a whole load of people came out and we then were able to create a phone tree to defend the sweet chestnut tree. A metaphorical tree where basically the idea is we the hub, the trunk of the tree, make 6 phone calls to people who then make 6 more phone calls, make 6 more phone calls…how many people can you get in an emergency when we get a tip off, which we did, that the sweet chestnut tree was going to be evicted, so we ended up with about 500 at about 5 o’clock on a very, very, very wet, muddy morning to defend the sweet chestnut tree. It was one of those things that, well, that photo was taken that morning. That is from the morning of the tree…they are watching the sweet chestnut tree, and it tells you what they felt at the time. And it was one of those moments where it was both very painful, but we also knew it was a fabulous victory – the fact that they had had to spend a whole day and send out huge numbers of police to take 500 people away from one tree and we were going to fight every bloody way, we were going to give them that much hassle. So the next stop up was the houses here. There was a row of 4 houses, that being the end one, that’s number 2 Wanstead Road, it was lived in by Patsy Brager and her brother Mick and I think Mike Edwards and his cousin Stewart, they were 2 doors up. Basically that was the next line of defence, this fabulous row of lovely houses, they were beautiful old houses, and they had to give over the keys to their houses which they owned and lived in and loved, and then well, they didn’t give the keys to… they gave the keys to us and then Patsy moved back in as a squatter in her own home…

And was it Patsy that locked on to her washing machine with Rebecca Lush?

That’s right, with Rebecca Lush, that’s it! That’s absolutely right, so as I say a classic case of a very well-spoken resident of Wanstead just going all the way on direct action and taking people with her. So that was the next phase.

And what was your involvement in that? Sorry, you were going to say something else…

I was going to move o… what was my involvement? I was mostly doing… I was still in my full time job at this stage, I was mostly doing networking, putting out posters and leaflets, spreading the word and helping to set up phone trees and basically run media and communication stuff, but as I say I was a part timer so I wasn’t always there when there was crane that needed jumping on, but mostly it was about preparing for the sweet chestnut tree stuff.

Ok. Do you want to…

Next phase. So it was after we lost these houses that we moved into doing Operation Road Block. So the tree was December 1993, those got evicted February ’94, on my mum’s birthday so I can remember the date of it, February 16^th those went and basically Operation Roadblock… we’d been doing the preparations whilst the defence of those houses…so when those houses went we thought well let’s start doing this non-stop direct action to hassle them wherever they’re building each morning, we’ll go out and find them, we’ll train some people up at the start of the morning and then take them out to jump on the bulldozers and we started that in March.

And how did you reach the people that ultimately came? That weren’t already there.

It was basically by creating the phone tree to defend the sweet chestnut tree, and then a bigger phone tree to defend this. Each time we were getting more and more oxygen and publicity, more and more people wanting to be there for the next eviction because they’d missed out on the last one and had heard about it through word of mouth, so our capacity to build phone trees was growing. Each time we got these two big media hits – we were getting other bits, but these two were big media hits – and each time they were just giving us more networks, more people saying ‘I want to know what’s next!’ So we were able to put people on phone trees, and then as I say we created a structure from all the people on the phone trees to do operation roadblock.

And what was the secret of the success of that media campaign? How did these incredibly successful media stories come about? Is it possible to pin point what it was that sparked the wider public interest and the media interest, do you think?

I think it’s this mixture of creativity and audacity. The sheer creativity of managing to argue that a treehouse was a dwelling was just like… John Vidal just loved it. And then the fact that people were willing to jump on the arm of the bulldozer. I mean one of the photos that isn’t in here was Paul Morozzo, a guy that I mentioned earlier, and the thing about Paul, was not only that he was a fabulous catalyst, but he was also a brilliant climber. That’s what he wanted to do until he got tendonitis, found he couldn’t be a climber, re-directed his energies into road protest, we gained massively

from him not being able to be a climber. But actually his climbing skills were perfectly good for getting him onto diggers so he managed to get into the tree and then leap from the tree onto the cherry picker that was trying to get him out of the tree. He managed to leap onto it and climb onto the arm of it which held them up for another several hours. But it was that sort of audacity. And as I say, people doing crazy things like barricading…turning chimney pots onto lock-ons, and then as I say, continuing on when we go onto Claremont Road, the sheer creativity of how everything that was done on that street was both artistic and defences. We were making things in the street that you could lock on to. All of the ground floor of those houses… at first we decided we had to force them to come up with cherry pickers so we had to block the ground floor entrances and at first we were doing this with wheel barrow load after wheel barrow load of rubble and then someone had the brilliant idea of car tyres. For us, car tyres were fairly easy to move compared with rubble and they were really bulky, by contrast, when the department of transport came to knock these houses down ]with all their bulldozers, car tyres were quite difficult for them to move with their digger buckets because they’d just bounce out. And then they had to dispose… symbolically it was lovely because they had to dispose of all these car tyres. We’d got the car tyres cos we just phoned up a whole load of car breakers yards to say ‘do you want to get rid of some car tyres?’ getting rid of car tyres is a big cost for these people demolishing cars. So to be able to offload car tyres on us for free was great for them, gave us barricading materials and symbolically it was beautiful too because when the government finally came to knock down these houses they had to basically get rid of the waste product of their own bloody car culture. It was beautiful.

Did Operation Road Block continue through Claremonet?

Not really, no. We basically had to bring it to an end. We were stretched on too many fronts. We did Operation Road Black…

And was that focussed on a particular bit of the road?

It was wherever they were building in the morning, we would go out and find them, mostly at the Wanstead end, and some drainage work at the Leyton and Leytonstone end, and then one morning when we were out stopping them doing work at the Wanstead end, they basically came behind our backs and took the roofs off two of the houses on Claremont Road, and we already knew that Claremont Road was the last fully intact street and because of its shape – it was basically 3 sides of a rectangle coming off Grove Green Road – that row of houses was intact until they came and took 2 of the roofs off that morning. W thought ‘right, we’re not letting that go any further’. That day actually sparked an idea for one of our next media hits cos we had this discussion – ‘if John MacGregor’ who was the transport secretary at the time, ‘if he’s sending his bloody construction company to smash the roofs of our houses, we should go and smash up the roof of his house’ Then we kind of all of looked at each other – ‘who’s up for that then?’. No one was, funnily enough, so I thought well there’s one thing we could do which is get a bloody huge banner, symbolically showing a road going through his house, and we did exactly that one morning. We climbed on the roof of his house with a banner saying ‘M11 Link Road – Return to sender’ on John Macgregor and by the time he’d finished his breakfast and his ministerial limo showed up to take him off to work, both the London TV stations – BBC Breakfast and ITV Breakfast had both showed up and got helicopters to show him leaving his house trying to pretend that nothing was happening. I was doing media support from the ground. I was about to leave to go on holiday so I was doing media support and not getting arrested, but it was a complete media hit. We took a ladder to get on the roof. Another lovely bit of footage – about 6/6.30 in the morning a little posse with the ladder going through Highgate Woods to get to the house and Paul turns to the camera and slyly says to everybody else carrying the ladder, ‘if anybody asks what we’re doing, we’re making a film called The Ladder’ [both laugh].

Was there any communication?

John MacGregor did ‘No Comment’, which was of course the phrase that was being outlawed by his ministerial colleague Michael Howard’s Criminal Justice Bill, as it then was, so he gave a no comment interview which we all laughed at.

From then on we realised we’d got to go back into defensive in order to kind of make Claremont Road a big showdown and assert that you’re not taking Claremont without a really big fight. We went into defensive for a while , we did some stuff about the Criminal Justice Bill which got passed while we were out there, and shortly afterwards we went and paid Michael Howard a visit, had a tresspassory assembly party in his garden, took people off on a mystery tour, didn’t let people know where we were going, 150 people trusted us to have planned something good and we went down to Michael Howard’s garden and he too gave no comment, which was again beautiful. From then really through the summer kids and local teachers were coming down to paint some stuff at the M11 and find out about some politics and local history. We were getting quite brain fried quite frankly. We were an open space so we were getting all the people with drug problems coming up; Mick was brilliant at dealing with that. He knew that people were going to show up with those sorts of problems and they needed a bit of time to wither settle in or get out. If they showed signs that they were beginning to sort themselves out and contribute, they got to stay. If they remained destructive, Mick was the person who wasn’t going to allow the destructive mental health issues of people on the street to drag us down. And there was a very fine line between welcoming and giving people a space to sort themselves out, but not at the expense of dragging us down. Mick drew that line very successfully. There were people that got badly frazzled by some of the conflicts with people with mental health issues. It was disruptive and hard work, and people were constantly arguing ‘have we got the balance right?’ what are we about if we are defending the loss of housing and yet we’re not prepared to accommodate the victims of lack of housing. That argument was made and was very powerful, but there was also ‘we’ve only got so much capacity to absorb society’s shit, and there comes a point…’ and Mick was very good at drawing that line when most of us were too lily livered and liberal to know how to deal with it.

And were there people who took on the role of supporting?

At a personal level?Probably not as much as it should have done.Climate Clamp has now produced an activist trauma support group, we didn’t really have that. No, not really. I don’t think we did terribly well at that sort of thing. We were very good at making sure people got fed, but beyond that…I think people who got traumatised I don’t think we really looked after them very well. If you were going through trauma and you needed support, it was totally down to whether you’d got mates who had the time and headspace and skills to offer that support or whether you didn’t. And some people who needed it most didn’t have that. [1.25 – some dialogue missing, due to time constraints]

Were the parties troublesome for Dolly?

She never complained about it, her hearing was pretty bad which probably helped. She gave a fabulous interview where someone asked her what it was like living around all those squatters – ‘don’t talk to me about dirty squatters, they’re the grandchildren I never had’. It’s like what a fabulous answer! She was gold dust, of course we looked after her.

Do you want to tell me about the eviction of Claremont Road?

Yeah. I went off site to do media support. We knew that we were really going to struggle media wise because we’d had several false alerts and triggered the phone tree 8 or 9 times for false alerts, but when the one came that was the real one we absolutely knew it was the real one, so we’d got used to saying ‘this is an amber alert so if you’re free come down, but don’t bust a gut’, but when the real one came it was ‘this is red alert, drop everything’, and we were able… it wasn’t just one tip off, we heard it from left, right and centre. So we triggered a red alert and people did come down in numbers. We also worked out why they’d chosen that date. They’d chosen to start the eviction of the day of the budget so the media attention was elsewhere, so I went off site to really work at the media. Have you interviewed Ali Butler?

No.

If you’re looking for women she’s be really good. She came to us as a squatter, and she’s still in London working as a cycle trainer. She’s moved into a place slightly off route. We moved into that and made that a kind of comms and media place, we acted as the off-site temporary hub and I went and held that together. It was a lively 4 days, we were struggling for coverage, and then the media started coming when we were still there 3 days later. Of course they could get their photographers in, which weakened our coverage, but they got interviews with people coming off site, and then filming from the edge of it when Phil was the last person down off the tower. [some missing].

How did Paul get the idea to build first wooden towers and then the big scaffold tower? Once we’d started on the defence of Claremont Road, he went over to visit his grandparents one day and they unearthed this book that he had read as a 6 or 7 year old and he’d completely forgotten about it. It was called The House that Bibo Built, and it was about this character Bibo who decided to build a tree house in his garden and then the local council came round and told him that he had to move out of his house because they were going to build a road through it, no it was a supermarket, not a road, I think I’ve got that wrong. So he built a tower on the top of his house, and he just build this tower taller and taller and taller, so the first part of the book was effectively a retelling of what we had done at the sweet chestnut tree, and then to defend houses, and the thing that he had to do next was to start building towers on the roofs of houses. So we started with these little wooden towers, and they worked brilliantly, even though we had moistly moved out of Claremont Road [to defend houses on Filibrook Road for the day], those wooded towers acted as fabulous defences, that just gave us the idea, ok, if a little wooden tower can cause them that much hassle, what would happen if we build a really big tower? So there was all this lovely stuff…there was a construction site on the other of the road, for some reason, we have never found out why, whoever was the site manager never put in place a mechanism for stopping us nicking scaffold, and we just got more and more scaffold for months, regularly had little people ‘being Bob’ – Bob was the anonymous person who was nicking the scaffold, so ‘being Bob’ was code for … ‘are you going to go and be Bob tonight?’ that was ‘are you going to go on a scaffolding mission?’ So Bob got away with an awful lot, and the tower would grow and grow whenever we got a false alert. It wouldn’t surprise me if on some of those false alerts, they actually had planned to come in and then the tower went and grew beyond the reach of the cherry picker, so they had to postpose and book a bigger cherry picker. [some missing 1.34]

How did it feel in those last day?

We’d sort of learned that the moments of tragedy were moments of triumph as well, this was something we’d been waiting for a long time. We’d expected them to come and evict us much sooner in the summer, in a way the fact that we were left there till late November into early December had been frying our brains, we were like ‘we’ve done the defences! Come and evict us! We want our moment in the media, we want to move on’. So this thing that we’ve set up, where we’ve forced the Department of Transport to come and play our game to evict us, we’ve created the stage, this is our drama, they’ve got to come on as the villain. ‘When are you showing up villain? Ah, right! Finally you’re here. Now we can mock you villain’, and the fact that Phil held the villain up for yet one last night was just brilliant, and then they had to knock these houses down with all these car tyres. By that time we were ready, we’d been kind of waiting to move on and do something new for quite a while, and the thing we already knew we were going to move on to was from doing stuff around roads to doing stuff around cars and reviving Reclaim the Street, which had been a little group of half a dozen people…what we’d been doing on Claremont Road all summer was having street parties, and the idea that you could reproduce street parties not on roads that had been closed to cars by dint of being whole streets squatted, we could reproduce this idea of street parties a busy shopping street and transform it into a place where we could have a street party.

1.39.12.7

Name of interviewee: Roger Geffen

Date of interview: 20/01/2016

Language: English

Venue: Interviewee’s home

Name of interviewer: Polly Rodgers

Length of interview:

Transcribed by:

Archive Ref: 2015_esch_VoLe_15

Archive Reference:

Archive Reference:

Interviewer: Polly

Interviewee: Alison Butler

So to start with can I just get you to say your full name for me?

Alison Butler

And your date of birth?

8^th August 1972

Brilliant. And todays date is the 8^th of February 2016. Erm ok, to start with will you just tell me a little bit about your grandparents?

Erm, so on my dad’s side there were English and I never knew them, but they were from the south of England and erm I think they were- My dad’s mum was a primary school teacher and his dad was a travelling Sales man or something and erm on my mums side they were German and I knew my grandparents and my grandma was Jewish and my grandfather was not Jewish and they came from Germany in er the 1930s and then had to stay, obviously [laughs] cos of the Nazis, and erm. Erm yes, so my mum was born in England to German speaking parents, but then they stopped speaking German to each other because obviously that was hostility to Germans in England so they were kind of refugees from Germany and had to sort of pretend not to be German here, although it didn’t work because they had German accents.

Did your mum, I think your mum grew up very aware of that?

She was, she was aware that they were German, but not the Jewish bit because another impact of Nazism was some Jewish people tried to keep their Jewishness sort of hidden because it didn’t feel safe. And my grandfather was in an internment camp for a while as a sort of enemy alien kind of thing, and then got let out.

In England?

In England yeah.

Do you know where?

Er yeah, near Liverpool somewhere. Oh actually no, it wasn’t near Liverpool, they lived in Liverpool at the time, but he er, oh my mum would know, I can’t remember, got sent somewhere, so my Grandma had to bring up 4 kids for a couple of years while he was in prison camp for being German in a country where she had to be because she was Jewish. It’s funny.

But she was also German and she wasn’t interned?

No she wasn’t interned because she was a woman. I think it was just during the war, it was just during the actual war anybody German in England no matter why they were in England had to get interned in case they were on the wrong side. So even though he came here married to a Jewish woman fleeing Hitler, and he had on his passport, my mums got there, both of their passports and my Grandma had the star of David in hers and Grandpa who wasn’t Jewish himself, my mums got letters from the sort of immigration officials in Germany saying you’re not to come back to Germany basically. Both of them used to go to and fro in the early 30s between England and Germany and eventually xxx which is better than getting sent to a concentration camp which is what happened to a lot of my Grandmas relatives.

And he, he was also banned?

Yeah, for being married to a Jew.

For being married to- Wow. And so, so, so, your mum growing up was aware of being German but not-

Not really Jewish. Er when she was a late teenager one of her friends said “you’re Jewish” and she was like “no I don’t think I am” and her mate was like “no you are, you’re Jewish, ask your mum” and er cos her friend was Jewish and they were a bit more open about it in their family. SO yeah, my mum knew certain things like my Grandma didn’t eat pork but she wasn’t, she wasn’t a practising Jew, and in fact my Grandmas family when they were in Germany were more, sort of, humanists than anything else. It was only when my Great Grandfather my Grandfathers dad was er, I think he was a lawyer, and when he was losing, he just was losing customers more and more as Nazism took hold, and then wasn’t allowed to practice, or you know more and more constraints were put on them then he started taking them to xxx so he became more sort of defiantly Jewish the more they were oppressed by the Nazi regime, but eventually they had to escape as well.

And they did successfully?

Yeah, later than Grandma. Basically they came over here. But there were Aunts and Uncles who- I think my Grandma’s favourite Aunt committed- committed suicide with a cyanide capsule rather than get taken to the concentration camps, and yeah some of them were taken. [Coughs] So, but my mum found this all out kind of quite a lot later. I think Grandma’s approach, when they first came, was just to kind of fit in in England and not really mention it.

And presumably they had a non-Jewish name because-

They had my Grandpa’s name yeah

Had your Grandpa’s name. Erm ok, and so where was your, where was your mum born?

Erm, Liverpool I think.

Liverpool. Xxx grew up there. And how about your dad?

Buckinghamshire

Buckinghamshire. [laughs] And do you know how your parents met?

Erm in North London at a party. Oh that was it, my, my Aunt on my dad’s side, so my dad’s sister and my Mums And, so my Grandma’s sister were next-door neighbours in North London and they had a er house party and they invited respectively their niece and their brother and that’s how they met. So I always thought it was convenient when I was a kid that my Uncle and Aunt from both sides lived next-door to each other, but in fact that’s how my mum and dad met.

[Laughs] That is convenient though. So did your parents, were your parents then, were they living in, did they then move to London?

Er, yeah, they were both living in London at that time, yeah

And where were you born?

Erm, University Collage Hospital central London. And then I grew up in Tufnell Park until I was 7. My mum and dad lived there and then when I was 7 they moved to West Dorset and erm I lived there until I was 18 and then when I was 18 I came to university in London.

And erm, just briefly if you like, what are your, can you give me any early childhood memories of being in either, well both London and Dorset

In Tufnell Park I remember, remember a very diverse sort of cultural environment. It wasn’t as gentrified then in the 70s as it is now and erm yeah, and I had friends from all different kinds of ethnicities and backgrounds and I had a really nice time, I really enjoyed primary school when I was in London. You know, like I had a Chinese friend and an Indian friend and you know there were black people white people brown people, pink people, and then when I was 7 we moved to West Dorset where everybody was white and everybody had kind of lived there for ages and ages. There weren’t very many, we lived in a small village and there weren’t very many people from out of the area, so I was kind of a novelty being from London and I didn’t fit in very well. I didn’t have a very good time xxx and I got bullied at school. So yeah, 0-7 I enjoyed and then 7 to sort of 16 I pretty much had a horrible time at school so then my aim was to get my A Levels so that I could go to university in London and get away and go back to the place where I had felt happy. So that’s what I did.

So that’s what you did

Yeah

So did you stay on at school for you’re A Levels or did you go off to-

Yeah, no, there wasn’t collage. I mean you know there was a sort of combined sixth form between two local very small comprehensive schools. So yeah it was a rural comprehensive school.

Yep. [Both laugh] I know the type of place. Erm and did you, where did you go to when you came to London?

Er, University College London.

And what did you study?

Well, er, I applied to do German and linguistics and er, got in to do that, then I changed to just linguistics, then I dropped out and came back the next year to do Psychology and I only lasted about 5 or 6 weeks and then I left. [Both laugh] Which kind of leads me to the whole M11 thing really.

Ok.

Er basically I had some mental health issues to be honest, I was quite sort of depressed and I was having panic attacks a lot. So I actually wasn’t able to stay in the lectures by the time I left the psychology degree I would have been 19? Yeah, cos I was 18 when I did the first, you know, German and linguistics, and I did like the best part of a year of that and then wanted to change you know, came back the next year to do psychology. But I was struggling so much with panic attacks that I literally couldn’t stay in the lecture theatre for more than 5 or 10 minutes, and I was drinking to sort of manage the panic attacks, so if I drank alcohol I could calm down from the panic attacks, but then it’s not very conducive to studying, so er, yeah, I didn’t last long. So I kind of half left, half got asked to leave kind of thing,

Uhum

And, I was in University halls of residence, so I obviously had to leave there and a friend from college from you know university had a Greek boyfriend who was living in a squat in East London and he was going to go back to Greece for the summer holiday, yeah for the summer, and he want- he was looking for somebody to squat-sit, to kind of occupy his house while he was a way, so she said why don’t you go and stay there so I was like “alright” cos I didn’t really have many options. So I went, and it was on a road that’s called Claremont Road in Leyton and er so I lived there for, I think it was a couple of years before erm the sort of, of just squatting there yeah

Were you xxx at that time?

Erm not really no. I was with the anti-apartheid movement xxx and I had the dangly earrings you know [both laugh] you know there was these anti-apartheid logos with the AA and the back and white. And CND, I think I was a member of CND and the anti-apartheid movement in a fairly just you know pay your subscription fee way.

From a, from a, from teens?

Yeah, from when I was a teenager. Er, yeah, but I wasn’t overtly political, no.

Did you grow up in a political household?

Erm, my parents voted labour and they sort of gave to charity and things like that but they, they weren’t activists that’s for sure.

So the point at which you moved to Claremont Road you were, you were sort of-

Quite a low point to be honest. I was actually very, not really very well and erm, first of all, I can’t really remember exactly what I was- I had- Basically I realised that a lot of the xxx to where I was squatting and erm all up the road were all squatted and it was something to do with they had been planning to build a road but it hadn’t quite happened so there was these compulsory purchase orders on all the houses and erm, I think I gradually, just gradually got to know other squatters along the road and then they became a kind of family like a sort of yeah, big ramshackle extended family and there was a lot of you know going round each other’s houses and helping each other sort of, helping each other out. And back in, I have to say, in the, you know, like early 90s, the benefit system and the student loan, student grant system meant that a lot more people could live without working in paid employment, sort of more easily than they can now, so there was quite a lot of that going on, and there was a lot of free parties and a lot a lot of drinking and a lot of smoking weed. That’s basically what was going on [both laugh]

And what were you doing in terms- how were you surviving financially?

So, it’s a complicated story which I could go on a big tangent about, but erm, I, so my Grandfather in Germany his Father was part of a family firm that made er tanning, leather products, and this family company he went to work for them after the war in Eng-, and in England I think. No, he didn’t, I can’t exactly remember but basically this family company that started out as a leather product company became quite a big company and er, once everything settled down after the war my Grandfather had sort of shares in this family company which he then handed on to his grandchildren, myself included. SO I was living of that. The, the tangent is that much later me and my sister, [interrupted by external noise, laughs] me and my sister erm sort of became the first people in this sort of family company, it’s a bit like Clarks shoes, you know Clarks shoes is also one of these family big companies. Erm we became, me and my sister became the first people to try and sell our shares back to other family members because it’s not on the stock market, the shares aren’t on the stock market, and er we eventually after a bit of a struggle with the company were allowed to do that and one of the things that I did was set up a group of people, quite a few of whom had been involved in the M11 campaign to try and work out how to spend the proceeds of the sale of the shares on sort of direct action politics and campaigning.

So when, when was, when did that happen?

So that would have happened around 2000.

Ok, ok, so-

So at the time of the M11 I was just surviving on the proceeds of this family company shares, so I was in a very privileged position basically being able to do that.

And what did you, what did you, how did you occupy your time?

So when I was first living there- God it’s just hard to remember really. I was erm, we were just, I was just drifting. I mean in honest I wasn’t very well mentally and I wasn’t very- just drinking a lot and smoking a lot if I’m honest, and erm, I mean this is why I think you know the M11 campaign basically saved my life because they showed up these erm- It was when the sort of activist types showed up from Twyford Down, the environmental activists came and they organised kind of protest march and er with the local residents and the squatters and… So there was this kind of big community of people squatting along the route of the link road where all of the houses had compulsory purchase orders on. And er, we were only vaguely aware that the reason why we were able to squat there was because of this road and I think then there started being eviction notices and it was at that point when we were like, we had been thinking “oh, shit, we’re going to have to look for somewhere else to stay we’re getting evicted” and these environmental activists turned up and were like “we’re having a protest march against the road” and you know “join in”. And I was like “what?” [Laughs] sort of “what’s this? Oh these people seem kind of like energetic and xxx”. And I went on a, yeah with my boyfriend at the time who was another squatter and we went on the really early protest march and er it was just really energising and like hadn’t occurred to me. It was kind of joining up the dots really, kind of going all of these houses are squatted for a reason which is they want to build a motorway and that’s not a very good idea for these environmental reasons and these social reasons and you don’t have to just passively be evicted-

[to someone else] Alright John?

And you can, you know, you can disagree with it, you can say no, you don’t just have to accept it so we kind of- Yeah just went on this protest march and then one of the things that happened really, I remember Rodger actually singing really [laughs] load and going if its that nutter [laughs] bless him.

And erm so, I think construction work had just started, they just started clearing a site towards Wanstead, no, in Leytonstone that had a load of young trees and they’d sort of uprooted a lot of young trees. Saplings really. And erm, and first of all they like climbed into the construction site, over the fence, and I was like “what!” again, just I remember loads of “what!” moments [both laugh] like “can you do that? You can’t do that. Surely you can’t do that? They’re doing that.” And er then going “oh alright then, everyone else is like climbing over the fence, climbing over the fence”. And then they got all these young trees that had been uprooted and they were like “right were gonna take them to the link road office and show them what they’re doing you know, show everybody what they’re doing”. So we carried all these like saplings, trees, up to Wanstead er, er and sort of lent them out, lent them against the windows of the link road office and everyone was chanting “homes not roads”, which became the you know, slogan of the whole thing really. [Coughs] Yeah and I just found it amazingly empowering, and I think they actually sat in front of a digger, in front of a bulldozer on the construction site and again I was like “you can’t do that, it’s dangerous! You’re gonna get hurt!” and they di-, you know, they did it and they didn’t get hurt and it stopped work, and yeah all of that seemed like incredibly empowering and I think for me it symbolised, I think one of the things that had happened, why I had the sort of mental health crash when I was 18/19 was that I’d been sort of you know bullied from when I was 7 to when I was 16 or something and you know it’s interesting that you asked about my Grandparents, quite a lot, you know, this stuff sometimes does go further back. I think the feeling of my Grandma having to sort of move out of German and having to not even speak German at home and being pushed around basically, just a feeling of you having to accept what happens to you even if its shit. You know you get bullied at school, tough; you have to keep going every day even though its shit. You know Hitler comes to power and it exterminates the Jews, tough, you just have to hide or- And what the wort of M11 campaign represented for me was the ability to stand up and say no, to say you don’t have to just take it, you don’t have to just to just get evicted, or you don’t have to just be moved on or put up with things that don’t seem fair. You can, you can stand up and, and doing it collectively, like being part of a group of people cos I think my Grandma was quite isolated when she came, you know especially when my Grandpa was in the internment camp. I felt isolated when I was at school. You know being part of a big messy group of people, full of nutcases and weirdos, but exactly that, like you know, nobody is a weirdo because everybody is part of the whole mess and everybody was like singing and standing up for what they believed in an yeah, it was, it was incredible. And the other thing that was really important about it for me, being a bit sort of mental at the time [laughs] was not having to do it. I couldn’t have held down a job at the time. I couldn’t hold down sort of being in a you know, being on a collage course, and I would- I couldn’t have done holding down a job, but I could get involved in the campaign against the M11 link road as much or as little as I wanted to and I remember once Paul Marotzo erm coming round to my house with a bunch of leaflets and saying you know “here’s a chunk of leaflets I wondered if you wanted to go an sort of put them through peoples doors?” and he said, “you know, you don’t have to, if you want and you know, just do as many as you feel like” an I remember thinking wow, I can do something, you know, I can join in and do something useful, but I don’t have to do it, and I don’t have to do it at any particular time an’ it was just you know lots of moments like that of [coughs] being allowed to take part in something, but not being forced to take part in it and something bigger than yourself that takes you out of your own kind of individual, individualised misery or selfishness. You know like sometimes, some of the squatters we’re having a good time partying but it was kind of quite aimless you know, a bit druggy, dinky, you know, it was good, there was the good feeling of family, but it wasn’t kind of focused on any positive action really, and what that M11 campaign brought was a sense of meaning and purpose and resistance to the shit that life throws at you kind of thing. And erm [coughs] yeah I just got, I found myself getting more drawn to getting involved with that and er yeah, just getting more and more involved really.

So initially when you first started to become aware of the campaign against the M11 it sounds like it was, er, phh, abstracts not the right word, but it was, it was about being involved in something bigger and something positive, rather than having a political, a particular political- I mean I’m just trying to understand-

I think, I think, yeah, for the first thing, I think it was the evictions, I think it was that it was seen as a way by the squatters, so I would put myself in that group of people who were just squatting fairly apolitically at the beginning of it and you know, I don’t know if I’ve said it on the recording but like, that I felt like the, the campaign against the M11 link road, once it really got going was just sort of really a synthesis of three social groups. One which was the local residents who were kind of older on the whole and had been living there a long time in respectable houses locally, and were maybe involved in local politics, and then the second group yeah, was maybe these squatters who’d just maybe over the years since the compulsory purchase orders had been made on those houses, it’s like 450 houses, something like that?

I’m not entirely sure, but people say, some people say 350 and some people say 450 and I know its somewhere in that, I’m not exactly sure how many

So it was Claremont Road, Grove Green Road, and then some other little roads of, of there, I can’t remember the names of them

There were bits of Fillebrook Road

Yeah, Fillebrook Road, definitely Fillebrook

And Colville

And Colville, yeah, yeah, yeah. But so there, along that route there’d grown up a network of squatters some of whom were sort of knew each other and not everybody knew everybody else, but there was a kind of a community of squatters that had evolved I would say over a period of years and yeah, and weren’t always operating together as a community, but there was some community, some sense of community amongst the squatters, so that’s the second group. And the third group which I really see as a catalyst to this really taking off was the sort of environmental activists from like Twyford Down and so on, you know the anti-rods, Earth First environmental activists who kind of came and joined everybody up together and energised everybody and, an yeah, an then brought these kind of more powerful synthesis of groups into action.

Do you remember your first erm, kind of encounters with individuals from that group?

Erm, yeah, I think, I suppose we must have got a leaflet through our door, or it was word of mouth, or some other squatter had spoken to them and, so I think, one of my first real memories just of going on that protest march, which I must have heard about by word of mouth or a leaflet and yeah, Rodg stood out as a kind of like, he was funny we were good at laughing at him, he had a megaphone, and er he was a kind of geeky but really unselfconscious kind of, yeah he was like doing chanting and singing really loudly and kind of unselfconsciously and it was just kind of-

Can you remember what he was singing?

Ahh, no, I, I, I mean chanting “homes not roads” and he might have recited some facts, some statistics or something, or I don’t know I can’t remember, I remember him being geeky and really enthusiastic in a slightly contagious way, but also like being a bit embarrassing (laughs). And then er no I remember things like Paul coming and saying you know “you can hand out some leaflets if you want” built I must have, maybe I went to some meetings, I mean the other thing that I really remember is meetings, everybody sitting in a circle. So that was my first experience of consensus decision making as well, like going to those first meetings. Everyone would sit in a circle, and what I later discovered was that that model of making decision s and organising had kind of come from a kind of cultural history of things like the Greenham Common Women, and there was some really influential women involved in the M11 campaign like- Can I say their names? Of people?

Absolutely, yeah you can, erm people do say names on the tape, and erm

Well I’m not saying they’ve done anything

Yeah, no,. Exactly you’re not saying they’ve done anything, and I won’t use them in anything that’s going to be public, so they’ll just be in the archive

So Emma Must and er Rebecca Lush, those two, I really remember them from early meetings, and I know that they were influenced by the politics of the Greenham Common women and that model of- Emma Must in particular, she was really conscientious about making decisions by consensus and you know making sure everybody’s voice was heard and erm. And I say everybody sat in a circle, It wasn’t, it was messy, you know, there were like kids and dogs and people having an argument at the side, or like joking around and you know cans of bear an erm, and again that was one of the things that made it accessible to me at the time was that it wasn’t too official or officious, and it wasn’t- You know the very messiness of it made it ok to be there and to take part, so the- people I remember from early on is Rodger Geffen, Paul Marotzo, Emma Must, Rebecca Lust, and then Phil Mcleash, Del Baily

And, and Del Baily was the person you were talking about earlier who was-

With the music

With the music

Yeah

What was, remind me what you said about him, he was, did you say he was,

He was always with his guitar round the campfire and he was very, very good at talking to people you know, he was, you know where Rodger Geffen, bless his heart, was massively enthusiastic he could sometimes alienate people by being a bit kind of bossy or posh or, not exactly posh, I mean I’m probably posher that him but I don’t know

But geeky

(Laughs) Something. And Dell was a real, is still, a real peoples person, he could get on with everybody so sometimes there were these factions, as the campaign evolved and there were different geographical sites thee were sometimes tensions between different groups or subgroup. So there was the three original sort of cultural groups as I see it, and then there was also different little cliques around different areas and social groupings, and one thing that Del was really good at was communicating with all of the groups and between, with and between, and fitting in everywhere and kind of doing good diplomacy kind of, yeah.

So did you feel like there was- Are you freezing cold?

I’m not-

It’s cold! I mean it is cold, we are sitting outside in the middle of February, it is cold

A little bit but I’m alright-

Shall we er, do you want to try and find somewhere warmer?

Errrr… We could… I don’t know, are you cold?

I mean I’m quite cold (laughs) I’m alright, but if, if there’s somewhere warmer- then it, we could-

Ok, we could try it. I was thinking to try the top caff cos those, that big room is usually quite empty

Ok let’s try the top caff, I’m pausing the tape now

[pause]

So erm, ok its recording again now, so we can just carry on from there. Dell and his diplomacy, Rodger and his geekiness

Yeah

Paul and his non-pressurising inclusiveness

Yeah, and his sort of strategic, I mean Pauls, he was good at strategy really, and erm and erm Emma and Rebecca on their kind of conscientiousness, I’d say and so-

Yeah, and consensus decision making

Yeah, and they were sort of inclusive and stuff as well.

So had they come from, were they involved in Greenham Common?

Erm I don’t think so. I think they were both too young, but I definitely remember Emma talking about, in fact I didn’t know for ages that that consensus decision making model had any kind of history. I just thought that was how they did things at the M11 campaign. But I think I remember Emma talking about it having come from there.

Do you know what would be really useful actually, cos I’m just realising that we talk a lot, I’ve talked, people have talked a lot about consensus decision making, and because I know what it is I’ve particularly asked, but I wonder, for the sake of the tape, whether you could just-

Describe-

describe it a little bit?

So erm, the sitting in a circle is already important cos that’s equalising, so there isn’t, there isn’t a chair, there isn’t a panel of experts or, you know, or an audience, everybody’s participating. Erm and everybody can see each other and then you do have one or two people who are facilitating the meeting, and their called facilitators rather than char, whatever. And erm people put their hands up to join in and you often have like, go round where everybody in the circle participates in some way, says how they feel about an issue, an I think, I mean the biggest thing about it is there isn’t, there’s no voting, there’s talking about an issue until everybody agrees and there's kind of getting a feeling for what are the problems if, if there's disagreement and kind of evolving new ways of tackling, I mean what they often mean in practice is torturously long meetings and the domination of the strongest personality types, you know, retrospectively I can see that. But at the time actually it did feel very inclusive and fair and lots of people could be involved you know, turn up and be part of it.

So what are some of the tools that are used in a consensus decision making process to make sure everybody’s involved?

Erm, do you know what it’s been a while since I’ve been in (laughs)- but erm, er well the go round, the, there are these hand signals but the hand signals seem to have become more popular recently, we didn’t actually use them a lot at the M11, like one of them was , yeah, I mean people used to put their hands up, and shout or kind of, I mean I know that nowadays there's one where if you sort of shake your hands out in front of you tilting them side to side quickly then that means I agree, so that you can, without making a lot of noise, or interrupting the person whose speaking, you can get a visual indication of how many people are in agreement about something. And then there's the over- there's the much abused hand signal of time out, no, no, it’s not time out its technical, it’s the T, so if people make a T with their hands that means I’ve got a technical point, but actually people do it when they want to interrupt and say something that they think is important rather than is actually a technical point

(laughs)

Erm, But I mean the main, the main thing that’s important about consensus decision making and that is behind almost all of the consensus meetings that I’ve been in is a general feeling of we’re all in it together and we have to, we have to agree together what is the best way forward and hammering things out until you get that kind of agreement, rather than overruling the minority, you listen to the minority and try and incorporate their concerns.

And in practice, well in practice you were saying it lead to very long meetings but-

Really long meetings

Did you on the whole find that you reached consensus eventually? Or-

Yeah. I mean I think it was, we mentioned this slightly when we were walking up here but, (eating) we had a kind of clear goal which afterwards, I’ve spoken to various people who’ve been involved and they’ve said oh, I never really thought we were gonna- Phil’s particularly bad on this, you know, “I never really thought we were gonna stop the M11 but it was really, it was all symbolic”. I thought we were, I mean I actually, yeah, the goal was to prevent the M11 link road from being built and to be able to keep this fantastic vibrant community. Erm you know the name of the group was the No M11 Link Road Campaign, that’s the goal, no M11 link road, so we were pretty much in agreement about that and er, and that we were the people that were gonna stop it. So you know, the meetings were about the details of how and what and when, but we were pretty, it was a nice sort of simple tangible easy to get hold of concept, stop the road. There was a bloke who had alcohol related dementia, I can’t remember what its called, but when your, you’ve messed up your brain so much, and erm, he had an American accent, I think he’d spent some time in America and he said “stop the road, I’m gonna stop the road, I’m gonna stop the road mate, I’m gonna stop the road” and er I think he summed up the campaign more astutely than lots of people really.

(laughs)

You know, that was it, he believed we were gonna stop the road. I was at the, you know, I was on a similar thing, level, so yeah.

So were you surprised when the road was actually, you know?

I don’t know about surprised-

Were you surprised that you didn’t stop the road?

I don’t know about surprised. Disappointed, yeah. Massively. I mean but there was a lot in between then, when I started and that point. You know, a lot happened.

Do you want to erm say a little bit, I think it would be useful, cos we talked before we started, put the tape on, about these erm, your concerns about the, erm, your responsibility to sort of say everything for people, I wonder if it would be useful for the sake of the interview to have some of that recorded, and it seems to tie in now because you’re talking about these different experiences and perspectives from different people. I wonder if you can just say a little bit about that?

So… Yeah, so one of my concerns or anxieties about taking part was you saying that you know you only had a remit and funding to do 20, to interview 20 people and that erm, you know, and I appreciate that but, I, you know, the worry is your never gonna get a kind of full idea of what it was, or how many people, and er, you know, like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people were involved and really it meant a lot I think. Well it meant a lot to me and it meant a lot to a lot of people, and everybody’s experience will have been so different, and I don’t want to be saying this is how it was, you know, anything I say in this interview or recording is just sort of my partial remembering of what it was like for me as one individual and there were so many people for whom it would have been so different. And also, one of the things that you mentioned was 16 of the people you’ve interviewed already were men and er there were lot of, lots of us were women involved who, you know, who were particularly strong in the campaign and important and there were women’s only actions and we had a women’s house at one point, like our own squat, and erm there were- One of the things that’s important for me, you know like I’ve talked about how I was a bit (short laugh) bonkers at the beginning of the campaign and how it was really important to me, you know, I wasn’t the only one, one of the things that made it stand out for me was how many marginalised people got involved and because of the sqa- the squatting nature of it lots of, you know, I… was relatively privileged financially. For lots and lots of people, they didn’t have anything, they didn’t, you know, they were dependent on benefits or less, you know, like there were quite a lot of homeless people like genuinely street homeless people that ended up getting involved, and I’ve never been involved in a sort of political campaign since where there was such a broad mixture of people, where it had such a sort of empowering effect on so many sort of disempowered people. You know there were kids, kids from the local schools who came and there were street homeless people and there were people who were using drugs and who were alcohol dependent who were really marginalised and in a really bad place in their lives who got involved. Old Mick was particularly good at getting people to do, do things like sweeping the street when it was, when Claremont Road was occupied from both ends. You know it was this crescent shaped road and it was blocked at both ends and the whole street was occupied including the streets space not just the houses and Mick would just give people a broom and say “get on with it and sweep the street”, and everybody, you know people who didn’t think of themselves as having any particular skills or who weren’t motivated or able to work were able to take part and feel useful and to do useful things and well, you know, run a café. Here was at least two squat caffs at one point at different ends of Claremont Road and… yeah.

And did, did Mick, I mean, Mick have a kind of history of…

(Whisper) You ok?

(Whisper) I don’t think I am, I feel uncomfortable

You feel uncomfortable

Yeah

Urmm. Ok. Well let’s stop then if you feel uncomfortable. Let’s stop now. I’ll stop the tape.

(tape paused)

The reason why I went funny, its cos it really, it matters to talk about the people who are usually excluded from so called politics and political campaigns and er, and people kind of like watching and listening and judging in the background, or you know, my perception of them doing that, doesn’t make it easy to talk about it. That’s all. Anyway try not to think about that.

I’m keeping an eye out

Ok thanks

If anybody’s staring at us, I’ll, I don’t know, I’ll take them

Poor blokes probably just trying to get into the-

(laughs)

Urm, but you were talking

Interview Details

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Transcribed by: Holly Gilson

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Archive Reference: 2016_esch_VoLe_19

Archive Reference: 2016_esch_VoLe_19

This is an anonymous interview. Today’s date is the 4^th March 2016 and my first question is, can you please tell me what stands out for you in your involvement in the M11 Link Road Campaign?

Yeah. It was officially called the No M11 Link Road Campaign, but we just used to call it the M11 Campaign, or even just the M11, which is kind of ironic, because people talk about ‘when I was involved in the M11’ but they mean the campaign against it.

Yeah, I interviewed Richard Leighton and he had a funny thing. He was saying ‘The M11 stood for…’ all these wonderful things.

Exactly. So the M11 actually means the campaign not to have an M11 Link Road. So for me it was the people. It was the community of people that were involved in it that was the most important thing, and what it represented to those people. There was a kind of massive, ramshackle, diverse-ish group of people that got involved and it was a place to live and struggle with each other as well as against the road, as well as a kind of campaign against the incursion of the state into housing and the environment and so on. For me it was …I can talk about how I got involved a bit…

Yeah, tell me about how you got involved a bit. Even just briefly.

Yeah, so I was at university and I was suffering from panic attacks and I couldn’t stay at university anymore and so I had to find somewhere to live and a friend had a boyfriend who was squatting in one of the houses on the route of the M11 and he was Greek and he wanted to go back to Greece for the summer and he wanted somebody to live in the house to keep it for him while he was away, so I did that because it was a place to stay. And then there was this massive…turned out, I didn’t know anything about it, it was just a house I could stay in when I couldn’t be at university any more, and it turned out there was this massive long row of houses across several streets that had been compulsorily purchased in order to build this motorway but then they hadn’t actually managed to get ahead with building the motorway, so the houses were empty and largely occupied by squatters and also some long term residents as well, like Dolly, on Claremont Road.

And was the squat you were staying in on Claremont Road?

It was, yeah. 66 Claremont Road. And there was Dolly who was in her late 80s at the time I think. She had lived in the house all her life, then there was other really long term squatters, who’d been there I think since the 80s, and were kind of residents and the whole street looked like a fairly normal street at that point, but you kind of knew there was something funny about it, like some of the residents were a bit more odd, and some of the houses were boarded up actually, and were empty, and over the time that I was there that happened more and more. That would have been in 1991 or something, I think.

Was Mick one of those long term squatters? Is it okay to have said his name?

Yeah. Lots of people will have. The street went in a kind of…it was facing the tube line, so there were houses on one side of the road and houses and the tube line on the other side of the road and the tube was Overground at that point so you could see the trains going past, and then at the two ends of the street, the street curved round and back to join Grove Green Road, so it was a kind of crescent but a very long, rectangular crescent. Does that make sense?

Yeah.

So Mick’s house was the one adjacent to the tube line on the corner of the crescent to the North. And my house was on the main terrace, a couple of houses in on that side, on the North, North or East end of the street.

Have you seen it in its current state?

Yeah.

So the tiny little bit of Claremont Road that still remains will be one end of the crescent, yeah?

Actually I haven’t seen it recently so I don’t know exactly what houses are still there…

There’s one house left.

Really? On Claremont Road?

It’s a bazaar experience.

Is it at the far or the near end?

That’s what I’m not entirely clear about. I think it’s 1 and 2.

That would have been the other end then because I was 66.

And would it have been Mick’s end, or the other end from Mick?

I was at Mick’s end, so the remaining house would probably be at the other end. Unless they numbered the houses really weirdly, unless his house was one and 2 on the outside of the bend, 3 and 4… do you see what I mean? Because their houses were on the outside of the bend and we were on the…

Yeah.

But I was aware of Mick, because we’d see each other about, but we didn’t know of each other, I was also aware of a couple of kids that ran about on the street at that point, kind of 11, 12 years old I think. I think it was from 1991. A girl and a boy, and they used to hang about with Mick, and kind of lively kids, I don’t know, you just saw them around, so I ended up living in that house for a few years and getting to know some of the other squatters of the route and there was a community of squatters who used to look out for each other and party together and so on, but they were sort of anti-establishment, by the nature of being squatters but they weren’t massively political, or politicised, and then at a certain point, I because aware that the houses were occupied because they’d been compulsorily purchased and that there was some local people who were…do you know what, I really wasn’t that aware. I think it was only when people came from like Twyford Down, the anti-roads protests, turned up when threat of eviction was much more imminent that I because aware that there had even been any local protest against it or that it was part of a motorway. I think we vaguely knew that they were bought up because they wanted to build a road but that they couldn’t build a road. And I’ve got a bit stuck…

So initially it was just a vague prospect that you weren’t particularly engaged with. Did you believe that you’d be evicted, that the houses would be knocked down at some point?

Yeah, exactly, we thought we were lucky to be there that long, mostly squatting was a bit more precarious and we’d been there quite a long time and it was quite straightforward, but then eviction notices started coming and then simultaneously-ish these little leaflets through the door about a protest march, and me and my boyfriend at the time went and joined in on this protest march and um…I kind of am repeating myself, and it’s not very…

Shall we move on?

Let’s talk about something else, yeah.

So, for the sake of the tape, this is a second interview and we’ve got a longer interview that is in the closed part of the archive. So we’re not going to repeat ourselves too much now. So let’s talk about…I know that what you wanted to talk about a little bit was including voices that wouldn’t otherwise be included, so do you want…

So as the protest and the campaign and the movement developed, I became aware that those two kids that were rattling around on my street were Fi and a little boy called ‘D’, let’s call him. And they were kids that had a hard time at home and found Claremont Road and Mick’s house to be a safe place to run away to and they helped out and were part of the protest, and eventually Claremont Road got closed off at each end by us using rubble from semi-demolished houses and old cars and I can’t remember what else, but we barricaded each end of the street and it became this little open community with houses, trees – because the open edge that was alongside the railway line had these London Plains I think, or were they lime trees? I can’t remember – so there was outdoor space because the road was closed to moving traffic, under Mick’s kind of imagination and direction, lots of furniture got taken out onto the street and set up over one summer, which might have been the summer of ’92 or ’93 I suppose, out on the street and some of the houses, because by then we were resisting eviction and demolition, some of the houses got knocked through the attics, and some underground tunnels, so a lot of the houses were connected up, and even where they weren’t directly physically connected, the doors were open and people would wander in and out and it was all very informal and free and open air kind of culture, so there was shelter but there was also an open space that felt really pleasant, actually, to be in because it was traffic free and had trees, and there were also tree houses. A lot of the trees opposite had tree-houses built in them and then walkways across to the buildings, like incredible, intrepid walkways, so it was like a big adventure playground really, for adults and misfits, and it was very colourful, and there was a woman who I can name, I’m sure she wouldn’t mind, Christine Binny, have you heard of her?

I’ve heard the name, yeah…

She was an artist and she became responsible for what became the art house, would have been 68 Claremont Road, I think. It was next door to my house, and she got artists to paint each room of the house, paint the walls and turn them into an art instillation. And you could walk through the house and it was like living art. She also got people to paint murals across the front of the terrace and outside there was a car that said ‘Rust in Peace’ and it had grass growing out of it and so on, so there was a lot of art and it was all very informal and DIY, and there was also the scaffolding tower that got built out of the roof of 66, which became the Campaign Office, that building as well. And we painted the scaffolding tower that protruded from the roof florescent pink and florescent green…

Ah! I’ve only seen black and white pictures of it, but I’ve got a drawing from a zine that was made at the end and there’s a drawing of the scaffold tower and it says ‘build it higher, build it pinker, build it greener’ and I assumed that was…

You haven’t seen it. I’ll look for the photos, I’m sorry I haven’t already got them, but yeah, it was very, very pink and very, very green. I remember we searched high and low, we went to these stage shops in the end to get powdered florescent pink and green pigment, it was really important. And it’s an example of what I mean about what was amazing about that campaign was that it was as important that it be painted florescent pink and green as it was that it be a really good, solid structure from which to resist eviction. So there was the kind of…and sometimes those two elements of art and creativity and political struggle and resistance… there was a tension between them, but also a fusion between them and I was quite involved in building the scaffolding tower, I really enjoyed it, it was like a giant climbing frame, you just clamber about on it, and also I was scared of heights at the beginning of the campaign, this was a – bless you. Interviewer nearly sneezed [both laugh] – this is a good example right, of what was good about it, was that I was scared of heights, there were these trees, there were walkways from the top of the trees to the houses, and then there was this scaffolding tower, gradually getting taller and taller and taller as a kind of tool of resistance to eviction, out of the roof of number 66, and I know I talked in the other interview about what was good for me, was coming out of having panic attacks and depression and alcohol dependency really, was that it was a space that I could be sheltered, and not have to worry, and also, once the campaign got going, where I could get involved in something outside of myself that was bigger than me and about taking part in something purposeful and meaningful that felt good and kind of worthwhile, i.e. resisting endless development and industrialisation and dependency on car culture and damage to the environment and damage to local communities, so I could be part of that, and also part of joining in a very welcoming, inclusive community, but without any pressure to have to take part and I could be as involved as little or as much as I wanted to, and that felt fantastic, and one example of how it helped me develop as a person is that I was scared of heights, and I could climb a bit up a tree and then down again, and a bit further up a tree the next day, and then down again, and then actually get up into the treehouse and then go a little bit along the walkway and then down again, over a period of weeks and weeks and then eventually get up on the roof of the building and then the scaffold tower started taking shape and I could climb a bit up it, and as it got bigger, I got more and more confident swinging around on these scaff poles, to the point where I could happily walk back and forth across the walkway from the trees to the thing and then eventually, when it came to the final eviction I was one of the last, you know 5 or so, 6 people on the tower at the end, right up at the top and not scared at all. So that’s a mini example of how that campaign was good for me as a person, in that it allowed me to slowly push out of my comfort zone and develop myself, even in terms of fear of heights, something silly, little like that. And so I was quite involved eventually in building the scaff tower, and that’s right, one of the instillations on the street was not just the Rust in Peace car that other people might have talked about, there was another car that was not in use that was filled with concrete and used as a lock on and had scaff poles embedded in concrete sticking out if the windows and up into the sky, so there was like at least 1, maybe 2 scaff poles sticking right up into the sky embedded in concrete, so it got so that as we were working of the scaff tower, I could clamber about on the tower and then when it was time to get down and finish I’d be standing on the edge of the roof – I mean this is amazing to think of now, from someone who was scared of heights – and then you could step off the roof onto the scaff pole that was sticking up from the car on the street and slide down it to the ground, like a fireman’s pole –

Oh god

And it was the most fun thing! My favourite bit of the day was sliding down for lunch or for the end of the day, stepping off a scaffolding tower on a roof, onto a pole sticking up into the sky, sliding down and climbing down a concrete filled car. I loved doing that. And that would have been absolutely rid- I never would have dreamed of doing that when I started out. And I’m sure it wasn’t very safe –

No, it doesn’t sound very safe. Sounds really fun though.

So I was involved in building this scaff tower, and it was quite a blokey thing to do, to build a scaff tower out of scaffolding poles that had been acquired from a local building site… so there were these blokes, building a scaffolding tower, but one of them was wearing a skirt, and then I was a girl, and there were other women involved in building it, and sometimes there was this bloke called ‘S’, let’s call him ‘S’, cos I don’t want to name him if he doesn’t want to be in it. He was little and he had definitely some difficulties, anyway, he was a lovely bloke but he was quite vulnerable, let’s say he was quite vulnerable, and he used to – or at least I remember one day, him climbing up the scaff tower with a kite and flying a kite from the tower, and some of the more blokey blokes who were building the tower were like ‘fucking hell, we’re trying to…’, you know, there was this kind of culture of Barricade and Resist! And the most important thing was resisting eviction, and fighting the road and it could get quite macho sometimes and there was a thing calling people who didn’t participate fully got called lunch-outs. I don’t know if you’ve come across that term already, and people would slate the lunch-outs. And I remember somebody saying ‘fucking lunch-outs’ or something, and just loving this bloke for climbing up the scaff tower in order to fly a kite, and we decided to paint it florescent pink and florescent green and that was important as how tall it got, and that somebody would climb up and spend the day flying a kite from it was as important to me and it getting taller and being stronger and better able to resist. It was all important. It was as important that a vulnerable person could have a moment of pure happiness flying a kite, as it was that it was strong. You know? And I told thingy to fuck off and leave him alone.

You said earlier that there was an ongoing tension and mutual benefit to the creativity and the resistance… that’s really interesting. I just wondered if you could say any more about the ways in which they were in conflict.

Er…

Or maybe you’ve said enough…

No, so there was this outdoor culture, especially in the summers and although there were fires in the winter, there were a lot of outdoor fires. In fact this is the thing that Rich will have – or certainly said he wanted to talk about – was this thing about traveller culture, and there was a sub-culture in the 90s called New Age Travellers, by the media. I never in my life heard anybody who lived in that culture, who had a travelling lifestyle, refer to themselves ever as New Age Travellers. I don’t know where the hell New Age comes from. They’d just call themselves travellers, if they called themselves anything, or somebody who lived on a site, yeah, I suppose travellers’ site, but yeah, definitely not new age. But that culture was very much around, and especially people who came from the anti-roads protests, but also it blended in a kind of very urban, Londony way with actual homeless culture, rough sleeping culture in Claremont Road, so you’d get this romantic…penny whistles... there was lots of playing penny whistles, and dreadlocks with brightly coloured ribbons, not ribbons, material, woven into your dreadlocks, lots of stripy clothes, stripy jumpers, multi-layered, multi-coloured clothes, especially the girls. Great big army boots, with the laces undone and stripy leggings and several layers of skirts and it was all part of this traveller culture, but there were also rough sleepers from east London were really drawn to it, and especially Claremont Road, I think because it was a street with houses, so real shelter, it wasn’t too… you know, and so in the evenings and during the day actually there was quite often a fire outside, like a campfire, bonfire type thing, there’s be music, either people playing penny whistles or playing a guitar or sound systems and the music of the Prodigy, ‘music for the jilted generation’, that was the tape that we played from the scaff tower during the eviction, really loud, so there was a kind of mix of very vulnerable, rough sleeping people, often with addictions, and homelessness and very vulnerable life histories, who were drawn to the out-doorsish, squatty community and who, like me, got enlivened and empowered a bit by this sense of collective purpose as well as finding a place to stay, basically, found something a bit bigger than them, and that was limited by how vulnerable they were I would say. So some of the people who came as activists, or who saw themselves as activists resisting the road, would look on some of those more vulnerable people as lunch-outs who didn’t participate enough in the building of the barricades or the climbing of the diggers, but I would actually see, sometimes, with a can of special brew, or whatever, some of those very vulnerable people joining in on those protests where you climb over the fences and climb onto a digger and say stop the road, and they would do it, which is quite impressive considering how to be locked up in a prison cell when you’ve got an addiction is quite a scary thing, actually, because it means not getting a drink or a smoke or a… you know, for however long, and maybe having a criminal record already which means that you’re in more trouble if you get arrested, so I think those things weren’t always taken into account and also there was what they contributed to the community, so everybody being very unique, special individuals with all of the kind of difference and life experience that they brought. Yeah, so sometimes people would see the sitting around on the street, drinking and smoking and playing music as being lunch-outs, but I think very bound up with that was a feeling of home and community for a lot of people that also extended to those people who saw themselves as activists fighting the road. It was a kind of…blurry, it wasn’t ‘there are these people and those other people’, everybody was a bit activisty, everyone was a bit lunched-out sometimes, you know. Everybody was aware of the collective goal of stopping the road, and some people were more aware of looking out for each other or looking out for the most vulnerable ones, or making something beautiful…flying a kite…yeah. There were two squat caffs on the street at one point, and Rory McLeod came and played – the musician – came and played at the caff at one end of the street and there was a bit of rivalry between the two caffs, and I can’t even remember why, but it probably would have been some sub, sub, sub, sub, sub cultural reason why people associated with one caff didn’t get on with people associated with the other one. And also what is interesting for me is how people have an innate – perhaps innate – tendency to feel safer as part of a group that is in opposition to another group, that there is… I don’t know, it’s something I became more and more aware of, that when I joined in I felt very lonely and isolated, so that squat that I first moved into in ’91 or whatever, the Greek guy who had been living there for years was away and I was literally on my own in the house for long periods of time at a time when I’d just been kicked out of college because I couldn’t cope, and I felt exceptionally alone and very depressed at the beginning and I remember long nights not being able to sleep and waiting for it to be light so that I could go to sleep at dawn, and drinking…you know, it was bleak actually, a very bleak time so when I started to get involved with these other squatters and then protesters it felt very safe. I can’t remember why I started talking about that, what was I saying?

Well my original question was about the tension and the mutual benefit of the creativity and activityness –

And the sense of community –

Yeah, and I think you were talking about the sense of community as an illustration of how that played out.

I certainly felt like a misfit at the beginning of my time living at Claremont Road and I felt very lonely and a misfit and then I got to know the squatters that were living there before it was a protest, and felt part of that community, and then I got to know the activists and took part in actually resisting the eviction of the houses and found that massively empowering and inclusive and I know I spoke to you in the other interview about hugs, about how that bunch of wooly jumpered, stripy, dreadlocked road protesters, about how they used to hug each other and you all the time and in the beginning I was getting hugged by these almost complete strangers and sort of standing there rigidly feeling like ‘what are you doing? Get off me’, and then eventually yeah, going ‘wow! This is nice actually, these people are really warm and kind’ and there was a very alive warmth. Oh! I know what I was talking about, about being part of something in opposition to something else – I said to you before, off the recording that I’ve heard so many people who were involved in the M11 campaign saying how they don’t think they really fitted in, or they weren’t really important, or they weren’t part of the core group, or they weren’t really…you know, they were just on the edges, and I’ve heard so many people who I think of as really integral to that period of time say that, that I’ve realised that that is perhaps a universal thing, that it was a safe and inclusive place for a lot of misfits, who even in a place which was so inclusive and included so many misfits, still always a bit felt like they didn’t properly belong. But even though I’ve heard them saying that, for me certainly there were moments when walking down Claremont Road in a pair of dungarees with a scaff pole on my shoulder or whatever, and there’s like kids and dogs and people playing music, I remember for the first time in my life feeling really at home, and like I really belong here, and I think even for those other people eho said ‘oh, I didn’t really belong’, that there will have been moments where at least they felt closer to that feeling of belonging somewhere than they will have ever, probably.

Anywhere else.

Yeah.

On that note, at the very beginning you started talking about these two kids…

Oh yeah.

And I wonder if we can just very…

Fi and ‘D’, yeah. So over the years I watched them grow up into kind of teenagers and Mick would get them doing odd jobs on the street when it was a protest street, so there’d be like sweeping up, and he was very good at getting, in fact, people that other people saw as lunch-outs to take part in odd jobs and simple tasks that they could do that made them feel part of something and got other people off their back as well, but that weren’t too demanding. And Fi took part in barricading Mick’s house, and yeah, she was somebody who… her mum was an alcoholic and um…see her mum’s still alive so I’m not sure…. As far as I know, she might be dead.

Ok. Her mum was a vulnerable person? We’re using a catch all phrase… or maybe we should just not talk about her mum.

Yeah… and also, I’ve got to go.

[laughs]. Have you got to go right now?

Yeah. I should have gone 15 minutes ago. Shit. Well there was this really lovely, vulnerable person called Fi, and she ended up living with me and then she died. That’s the short version. No. that’s useless.

OK. We’d better stop the recording.

We’ve got to. I’ve got to go. Sorry.

Ok. So, for now I’m going to stop this.

Interview Details

Name of interviewee: Alison Butler

Project: Voices of Leytonstonia

Date of interview:

Language: English

Venue: 53 Theorby Road, E5 9QL

Name of interviewer: Polly Rodgers

Length of interview: 0.36.31

Transcribed by: Polly Rodgers

Archive Ref: 2016_esch_VoLe_19

What is your name and where were you born?

What is your name and where were you born?

My name’s Fi Stephens, I wasn’t born in London, I was actually born on the Isle of White. I came to London in 1991.

What was your connection to the protests?

At the time I was living in Edmonton in North London and shortly after I came to London I got involved in various campaigning. I actually started in the London cycling campaign, doing some direct action with them, through the people that I met it led onto going down to Twyford Down in Hampshire near Winchester which was again a big anti-road protest against the extension of the M3 down there which was going through some amazing countryside. When that was winding down, the M 11 Campaign was just starting up, and that was much more local. So I got involved in the No M11 Campaign on the back of the Twyford Down Campaign. I lived a few miles away; I wasn’t that familiar with this area, so it was a bit of a journey of discovery of east London.

Do you still visit Wanstead, or do you have any connections to the place anymore?

Not so much, I actually moved to Hackney 12 years ago, so I am part of east London, a lot nearer the area in question, I only really pass through I suppose. Some years ago in 2011 I did a really short job as a census collector, collecting census returns and one of my areas was Leyton and Leytonstone, so one of my tasks was to visit some of the roads whi9ch were affected by the M11 and which were quite prominent in the campaign, and one of the roads was Claremont Road, but there were literally 4 houses left and I was quite shocked, what used to be a road, in front of the houses was now little more than a path, and there’s a really high wall - sort of 6 or 7 foot high in front of the houses and then it’s a sheer drop down to the motorway, so the row of houses looks completely out of place now.

What was your main motivation for fighting to get the road…?

There were lots of things, partly air pollution, the more roads that are built, the more traffic actually comes to fill them, it’s not a question of building more roads for the same amount of traffic, so air pollution increases a lot when you build new roads, and another thing was that nobody liked to live next to a busy road, and it really affected the local community there, I think there were something like a thousand people that were evicted from their homes that they’d lived in for years and years to make way for the road, so that was a big issue as well, the housing issue.

Have you got any memories of how Claremont Road was then?

I do, yes. As I say, I wasn’t familiar with the area before the protest began but I did get quite familiar with Claremont Road. There was one resident who became quite famous during the campaign, Dolly Watson, you’ve probably heard of her, who I believe was 90 something, and she stuck it out to the end. I don’t know if she was evicted, but certainly I think she went into a residential home in the end, but she was one of the quite prominent local residents involved in the campaign. I do have really good memories of Clartemont Road and the sense of community there. Not least because every Sunday afternoon and evening there was a street party there. People had barricaded both ends of the road so no vehicles could drive down it, it was a sort of loop, and all sorts of artistic and creative people had got involved constructing quite arty, quite wacky barricades, and they’d got an old car that had been smashed up and big beds and mattresses. These street parties were absolutely brilliant, really good memories of summer evenings there, watching bands play, I don’t know if you’ve heard of them, there was a band called the Tofu Love Frogs at the time, and they were based in Hackney and they were a kind of folk band and they had a girl who used to play the fiddle and guitars and so on and they always really got the crowd going, they were really good fun, so good memories of the street parties.

What were the main influences in terms of art and stuff?

All sorts of things, there was lots of graffiti and there were lots of paintings on the road surface itself, and there was a giant chess board painted on the road and people used to use various things as chess pieces, I can’t remember what, but each square would be a couple of foot square.

Did you see any violence when you were protesting?

Quite a lot, unfortunately. The various actions I went on, there were always lots of security guards and lots of police and I don’t know if they actually outnumbered us, or if it just seemed as though they outnumbered us, but they were certainly quite thick on the ground and they did certainly did indulge in lots of rough handling of people.

What part did you play when you battled to get the road?

Well I wasn’t one of the main people in the campaign. I was working full time so I couldn’t dedicate that much time to it, but I did come along at weekends when there was a major action happening. One of the things I was involved in was the eviction of one of the houses on Cambridge Heath - I think I’ve got the name wrong - Cambridge Heath Road, they were quite big houses, I took a couple of days off work because people barricaded themselves into the house when it was due for demolition and we spent the evening on the first or second floor and in the morning we barricaded - I think people somehow destroyed the stairs because we knew people were coming in, so we barricaded ourselves into the top floor and then went up onto the roof, and I remember it was quite frightening because it was a row of terraced houses and the bulldozers came in to demolish some of the others which didn’t have any protesters in, but it was shaking the house that we were in, the bucket on the bulldozer, hitting the house so I was quite scared, I have to confess.

Was that the house that Patsy and Rebecca Lush were locked onto the washing machine downstairs.

I think it was, it’s all a bit hazy now in terms of remembering who was there, I wasn’t in the same place as them, even if it was the same house, because I was on the roof and they were in the basement. But I do remember, I think it got to mid afternoon and I decided enough was enough because sometimes your stamina goes and I actually left the house. People were leaving in ones and twos as they’d had enough. Only a few people stayed that night as well on the roof, but I got arrested just for being there, it wasn’t very pleasant.

What was being arrested like?

Not great! I remember there was a police woman escorting me along the road, off the premises, away from the house, but I was quite incensed by this, because she got me by the arm and was marching me along, when I’d actually elected myself to leave the house, so I objected to that and I do remember being a bit mouthy, so that’s probably why she nicked me.

Do you have any regrets?

Only that I wasn’t able to get more involved actually, because I wholeheartedly believe in the cause. But it was a question of balance, and unfortunately I had to go to work rather than spend a lot more time there.

Did you make any friends during the protest?

Yes, I did actually. More people I’ve lost contact with, but certainly there were a lot of really nice, likeminded people that were quite sound and there was a little contingent of us from Edmonton that used to go along, particularly to the street parties, as well as the protests, so that strengthened existing friendships as well.

What really brought your attention to it, and made you think you had to fight for it?

Good question. Like I say, it just naturally led on from the protests that I’d already been involved in, in terms of general environmental campaigning, for cyclists and against the destruction of Twyford Down which was really big and in the news at the time. My feeling was we wouldn’t actually win the battle against the M11 because there was so much money, so many resources being spent on it, and I think we knew the road would be built, no matter what we did, but we did want to get under the skin of the politicians; we did want to cost them money, I do believe that through the efforts of people involved in those two campaigns and many others, that we actually stopped further roads being built and we caused a change in government policy, which has lasted about 20 years. Unfortunately they’re talking about resurrecting the road building programme now. But I think we staved it off for 20 or 30 years.

Do you go back there now?

I don’t really have reason to actually. Occasionally I pass through Leyton or Leytonstone, but not really, though having said that, when I first moved to Hackney we used to have a van so we used to drive down that part of the M11 and I didn’t recognise it when I moved here. It’s a huge busy road now while it used to be houses. It’s quite shocking when I think about it, but I was most shocked when I did the census collecting job and I was walking round some of the streets there, especially Claremont Road itself, where there’s hardly anything left.

Did you come across any people that you remembered?

No. I did a certain amount of door-knocking to get the census returned, but they were mainly young people, not people that I recognised.

And are you involved in any environmental stuff now?

I’m involved in local campaigns now in Hackney, to do with Hackney Marshes and at the moment the council are planning on building a cricket pavilion on existing open green space, there’s a pavilion there at the moment and its very dilapidated and does need replacing and I don’t think anybody’s arguing against that, but it’s the sheer size of the one they’re planning. We went to a public enquiry in June 2015 to do with the pavilion and two associated car parks. We lost the appeal against the pavilion, but we did win against one of the car parks, so it was time well spent.

Overall, are you proud of your experience and do you look back on it…

Definitely. Despite the violence and various incidents, I don’t regret my part in it. I made some good friends at the time and I think it was very worthwhile.

Can you just say something about the other people that were involved in the campaign?

There were all sorts of people, there were people who were quite creative, that made the campaign quite visible, by doing graffiti, by doing artwork, posters to publicise the various actions that went on, and there were a lot of very committed environmental campaigners that really knew their stuff, very well educated people and lots of people that were really new to campaigning, that just had a huge learning experience ahead of them, like learning to deal with the media and answer questions coherently, we all had do learn best tactics. Non-violent direct action was the order of the day, because nobody wanted to see violence escalating, and as somebody quite eloquently put it, they do violence better than we do, so we knew we’d come off worse and it doesn’t do a campaign any favours if you come across all violent, you need to win over the hearts and minds of people in the local area, and decision makers as well. You’ll have heard about the chestnut tree, I wasn’t involved in vigils there, but it became really famous, the tree on George Green, it became a postal address for protesters camping in and around the tree. There were messages coming from all around the country to the tree itself, so that was quite a good focal point.

Is there anything that we haven’t asked you that it’s important to mention?

Not that I can think of.

You’ve talked about being involved in Claremont Road and the houses on Cambridge Park Road -

That’s it, Cambridge Park Road -

Were they the main areas you were involved in?

Yeah, they were big actions. A lot of the time there wasn’t much going on, so we would visit at weekends and I remember being taken to what was called The Last House, which was on Fillibrooke Road, and it was quite a sight actually, it was quite a big house left completely on its own. I think it was four stories, someone had put up a tower, it was a flat roof and someone had put up a tower with lots of records on it as a sort of instillation and the tower also had the function of being something people could climb up when it came to it at the last minute so the bailiffs couldn’t get them. I remember going up there and looking down. I’m not the best person with heights. I remember going up and looking down and thinking I’m 4 floors up and there’s the edge. It was nice to visit when there was nothing going on as well. In situations where you’re campaigning against something quite unpleasant, it’s important to savour the positive experiences as well, like the street parties and the music that went on. It was good.

Brilliant. Thank you so much.